RDM Dual Wield Idea!

[Demon6324236]

Give RDM a new tier of Dual Wield with 0 Delay reduction. Then add a spell that lowers delay while Dual Wielding. Think of it like Temper, in how Temper gives RDM Double Attack, without it actually being the trait, then with more skill you get more DA. Well this spell would just basically give you an enhancement on your Dual Wielding. So say at the start its 0% reduction from the trait, then with the spell you get -5%, and then have it progress as Temper does, ending at -20%. This would put RDM at a level of delay right between DW 2 and 3. This would give RDM access to Dual Wield as it has long been asked for, but keeping it unique like Temper was.

Obviously like this post if you, ya know, like the idea and all that.

[Demon6324236]

Like this post if you dislike that idea up there, because this is the best were getting in terms of a dislike button for ideas.

[Carth]

I don't really like the idea of relying on even more enhancement spells than we already do, but this is probably the best we would get if we ever got a DW trait.

[Demon6324236]

Well as people have pointed out to me RDM never gets melee traits, however our spells are kinda our traits, but they evolve though Enhancing Skill rather than tiers and gear that specifically enhances it, so really this is more or less playing to that same idea. The difference is that making DW only work with that spell active means if it wears then boom, lost all your TP, and your 2nd weapon, which would be a big problem by compare, so DW0 would work to make up for that. In the end we would have the same basic idea as how alot of our RDM spells already work, just with a slight alteration to make it work for Dual Wield, while also helping to bridge the gap between RDM and every other thing that deals damage.

[Carth]

Then quick question.

Would having this spell also affect DW3 from /NIN?

[Demon6324236]

I was questioning that myself honestly. With this spell and /NIN you would at best hit 45%, NIN gets 35% at 99 so RDM would be ahead. Not sure how to balance it out without nerfing it, unless they can somehow make it so that you only get delay reduction from 1 source. If the trait is more than the spell if giving you, the spell is nulled, and if the spell is giving you more, the trait is nulled. Though that seems like something that SE would have a problem doing, so I cant exactly say how they should go about messing with that. Another solution would be to just make the trait more dominate, and the spell only work if your trait is 0, that seems a bit more workable, then if your /NIN or /DNC you cant use the spell, making it worthless as /DNC, but still a good trade off if it works otherwise.

[Sunrider]

All jobs should get a native Dual Wield 0, simply for the benefit of dualing 1-hand weapons.

Then, for RDM (and maybe other jobs with similar powers), another trait reducing delay whenever a weapon-enhancing spell is cast on the user: this would mean En-spells and Temper. Maybe a apply a lower reduction rate when subbing jobs like NIN, that offer higher Dual Wield.

[ManaKing]

Lol I haven't played NIN/RDM in years!

On a semi serious note, you could give RDM Dual Wield 1 and allow this spell to give Dual Wield 2 and 3 at specific levels of Enhancing. Dual Wield 3 requiring 500+ Enhancing.

Getting dual wield natively means that RDM/WAR becomes very normal overnight. Temper + Double Attack trait means RDM gets 30% Double Attack Natively along with Berserk, Aggressor, and Warcry. Sanguine Blade is no longer the issue for /WAR, it's that RDMs are murderously beating things to death with CDC and Requiescat. All the while, Cure IVs at full potency.

That is a pretty powerful job you are describing. I don't suspect we would ever get a buff again, which means no more magic adjustment. Essentially that's the argument I would have against this kind of change. I'm very pro melee, but I don't neglect my magics, since that's why I'm playing a RDM. If it were a choice between actually good Enspell improvements or native dual wield, I would take Enspells. They are the reason I'm playing RDM to begin with and what I like most about the job. Enfeebles and Stoneskin being my runners up.

[Sunrider]

That is a pretty powerful job you are describing. I don't suspect we would ever get a buff again, which means no more magic adjustment. Essentially that's the argument I would have against this kind of change. I'm very pro melee, but I don't neglect my magics, since that's why I'm playing a RDM. If it were a choice between actually good Enspell improvements or native dual wield, I would take Enspells. They are the reason I'm playing RDM to begin with and what I like most about the job. Enfeebles and Stoneskin being my runners up.It might be a powerful job, but broken enfeebling magics would still be broken and still need addressing, regardless of whether RDM suddenly became melee contenders. RDM's increase in damage potential would depend on the level of Dual Wield we could obtain, and RDM would still be limited to a degree by spell cycles, even with Composure. Really, the only things that might justifiably never see improvement might be tier 2 En-spells... and even then, there's still no justification for the way their damage is calculated.

But, if native Dual Wield seriously improved RDM frontline to the magnitude you project, a loss in En-spell 2 improvements is a small price to pay.

[ManaKing]

It is.

But the point of having different jobs, for me, is having job identity and diversity. It is more important for job identity for RDMs to have working enspells as their medium for excelling in melee. Dual Wield is associated with NIN, and while I don't mind using it, I wouldn't mind having other viable options. There are possible adjustments that will affect RDM that should make it's way over to the NA forums somewhat soon that might change our outlook on melee sub jobs.

My favorite way to play RDM is RDM/DRK, but I don't mind RDM/NIN because it does a god job of covering our weaknesses. Blink is not a good spell compared to Utsu, Dual Wield contributes more damage than LR and attack bonuses, NIN magic has its uses. The other fun thing with dual wield is you get to play with your offhand choices.

The other hand up on not dual wielding is that we don't get Fencer to go with our spiffy Shield Mastery, much like PLD ; ;

[radicaldreamer]

I've been feeling that RDM should get the fencer trait, rather than dual wield. While I like dual wielding, I also like using a shield, and fencer would help in both setups.

Also because RDM's AF sword is a fencer sword, and af outfit looks like a sword fighter... Why no fencer trait? >_< Even fencer 1 would be nice.

[Sunrider]

I won't dispute a native Fencer trait, the fact that we don't have that is simply asinine.

The reason I support all-jobs Dual Wield is because its so bloody useful. Whether your intent is damage, magic potency, or stat boosts, everyone can make good of it.

NIN might be the first thing everyone thinks of when mentioning the trait, but let's not forgets this is FFXI, and NIN isn't the only job with the trait. But NIN's identity isn't damaged if everyone got a Dual Wield 0; both NIN and DNC would still have the higher tiers. Their identities remain untouched.

For RDM, it frees up the job's sub-options. It leaves you to decide whether you want NIN for shadows, DNC for Sambas, or DRK for whichever reason you prefer... and so forth. Additional powers to main classes can expand sub job novelty; giving everyone Dual Wield frees up RDM to explore sub jobs that bring a little more to it's melee--and giving additional traits to the job (such as a native Double Attack), might allow for even freer exploration of sub jobs.

And like I said, the only aspect of RDM that would see trouble is En-spell 2 and let's admit: it's already stagnant. Assuming an all-jobs native Dual Wield and the threat of RDM, devs could simply remove the building damage component of the spells, and cap it at somewhere reasonable. It could still be made useful without giving RDM an unfair edge.

[ManaKing]

They could give us an unfair edge and it still wouldn't balance out how bad bad we are at melee compared to 2Hs with A Skill weapons and actual gear. They might change that with this new direction they are going.

After the possible changes, the difference between BLU/DRK and RDM/Anything is going to be bad. We need some love and fast.

I would be an extremely happy RDM is I was allowed to RDM/DRK with Dual Wield. It's about all I've ever wanted on RDM. You get Stun, you get the first Tier of Occult Accumen, you get all your Sword WSs, you get LR and SE for if you need to get a little bit crazy, Absorb TP and the Absorb Stat Spells and Drain and Aspir. If they change Last Resort to give 15% Job Haste to all weapon types, we would profit amazingly well from having native access to Dual Wield.

Please read this as, I would be happy and probably never stop playing this game if RDM/DRK was made a good job option with Dual Wield. $$$ and such.

[Calatilla]

I've been feeling that RDM should get the fencer trait, rather than dual wield. While I like dual wielding, I also like using a shield, and fencer would help in both setups.

Also because RDM's AF sword is a fencer sword, and af outfit looks like a sword fighter... Why no fencer trait? >_< Even fencer 1 would be nice.
Of the 3 jobs to get the fencer trait (war, bst, brd) I think war was only given the trait for subjob purposes since no self respecting war would ever single wield unless proc'ing red. RDM by definition should have the trait naturally, but as we all know, SE don't have a clue what they are doing with RDM, they say it can melee but give it nothing to help with this part of the job. Instead electing to give fencer to 3 jobs that never really use it. The 2 jobs that would benefit from it most, RDM and PLD don't even get it.

[Lastranger]

with how good Dw is it should be more availible to more 1h jobs for more Sub job diversity, however i have thought about an alternative latly for 1h + shield option that might work.

Imagine a trait called magic Sword & board, gicen to rdm/pld/drk posibly rune knight too once it comes out that activates when u have a 1 hand wepon + shield equiped + a enspell

let rdm get 4 tiers of it and the rest at 3 tiers

What it would do is mirror the dmg done off main wepon and add that too your current enspell.

Tier 1 would add 75% of mainhands dmg done as enspell additional dmg to the regulare enspell dmg.
Tier 2 would add 100%
Tier 3 would add 125%
Tier 4 would add 150%

of course you would still loose the haste of DW but it would allow one to boost melee dmg with str/attk and ability's like souleater making /war /drk good choices for sub.

add onto that a boost to spike spells dmg from amount of block your shield has and i think it could give an alternative to DW for melee as well as an option to actually be able to go shield without loosing too much dmg

I think this might be an interesting concept for those melee that have magic boost to melee.

Only thing i see holding it back is that as far as i know enspell dmg isnt added to WS dmg, if SE could alter that to make it carry on any WS that is physical i think it could make a very good alternative as well as fix the lack of elemental WS for RDM.

[ManaKing]

If you are going /WAR or /DRK then RDM doesn't have a problem with it's Elemental WS. I like the idea.

[raps1355]

Agree with everyone getting DW 0 delay but not rdm getting enhancing spells to get delay reduction, its unfair to other 1 handed jobs who are dictated to /nin.

[Demon6324236]

Agree with everyone getting DW 0 delay but not rdm getting enhancing spells to get delay reduction, its unfair to other 1 handed jobs who are dictated to /nin.While it may seem a bit bias on my part to say it, I would normally agree but in this case I don't.

Looking at how far RDM's damage falls behind almost every other melee job, and the fact every 1-handed front line job has Dual Wield except for MNK, RDM, PLD, BST, BRD, and PUP. Now when you think about it, you really cant count MNK or PUP because they are meant to use H2H, which is basically a 2-handed weapon that is counted as a 1-handed weapon. PLD I also discount because the job is meant to tank, its DD power is very low, and it has alot of shield attributes to make up for it like Shield Mastery. Which leaves RDM, BST, and BRD. BRD is arguably a back line job as is RDM, but they can melee, and have access to melee gear such as Hecatomb, and Mandau. BST should have Dual Wield by itself, probably level 2 or 3 like THF, BRD should have level 1 or 2 for the fact its not a true front line job, its a massive buff master and has debuffs as well. RDM is a Hybrid, even with a spell to lower delay, RDM would have less native Dual Wield than a BLU/WAR, keeping BLU better at melee DPS, but it gives RDM its unique way to boost its damage, which can be dispelled, and would help balance it out to be a bit more powerful.

Honestly I think at the end no job should be without Dual Wield. Its a key trait for damage, its the only real trait that right now makes single handed DDs do any kind of respectable damage next to their two handed counterparts. The fact any of the jobs don't have these traits only serves to limit their ability to fight effectively on the front lines for anything except utility, which has been in short demand for a while.

[Traxus]

I'd rather see them make fencer on par with dual-wield (at least at higher tiers), and give it to rdm.

[Doombringer]

yah i gotta agree that fencer, as it stands now, isn't gonna matter much.

Don't get me wrong, i completely understand the desire. they named it fencer... then didn't give it to red mage. they may as well have named it "hey red mages, i had sex with your mother last night!"

but unless they made it a lot better, i'd still just sub ninja and dual wield.

[ManaKing]

Requiescat and CDC can both benefit from Fencer as it stands now, but it would never be worth giving up /NIN. If Fencer worked with Dual Wield you would see a bunch of happy NIN/WAR and other dual wield jobs that want to go /WAR.

If you give RDM native fencer then RDM/NIN becomes better. If you give them both Dual Wield and Fencer than RDM can sub whatever they want.

[Rustic]

Here's a thought. Limit our dual wield traits and put them at a point where subbing /RDM isn't going to really give people a benefit, making it a "native job" sorta thing.

Call it Florentine and limit it to equipping daggers and some (but not all) 1H blunt weapons in the offhand slot. Make a version that's 0% delay reduction at 35th, 5% at 55th, 10% at 75th, 20% at 95th.

Yep, that means it's weaker than THF DW- but c'mon, we're talking a job that has B-grade sword and dagger skills here and all kinds of native ways to improve their melee ability.

[Carth]

The exclusion of swords baffles me.

[Rustic]

The exclusion of swords baffles me.

You want to be a two-sword wielding killing machine, get true dual wield instead with a subjob. Red Mages are based off of fencers, who generally wielded an offhand parrying weapon or lighter shield rather than a second full-sized sword. Waving around a pair of longswords for a class that favors fencing-style blades is....well, kinda silly, which is why we don't get native dual wield to begin with.

[Carth]

Welp, better put that D-rank Club skill to use!

[Sunrider]

You want to be a two-sword wielding killing machine, get true dual wield instead with a subjob. Red Mages are based off of fencers, who generally wielded an offhand parrying weapon or lighter shield rather than a second full-sized sword. Waving around a pair of longswords for a class that favors fencing-style blades is....well, kinda silly, which is why we don't get native dual wield to begin with.Fencers were also rather familiar with pistols, rifles, crossbows, and some plate armors.

Give a little, get a little...

[Rustic]

Fencers were also rather familiar with pistols, rifles, crossbows, and some plate armors.

Give a little, get a little...

...and it's not like having Marksmanship at the same level as Archery would kill us.

[ManaKing]

Marksmanship would make RDM/COR viable.


On to daggers, they would have to add us to some actual daggers, because we haven't gotten almost anything but swords post 75. The Aluh Jambiya is slow and -10 VIT, the Gnadgott is unremarkable, the Oneiros Knife is low damage, and the Twilight Knife doesn't work with Enspells. Of the 4 daggers listed, we should only be able to use Gnadgott since it's a dagger or baselard model. We aren't on knives or Jambiya before 75.

Honestly we would be offhanding Mandau and that is terribly expensive unless they wanted to give us the Attack from it.

It seems significantly unlikely that they would make an alternate to Dual Wield only for one job. At least with a Spell that emulated Traits, it seems conceivable, since BLU gets Dual Wield traits by setting spells. Not the same thing, I admit, but Temper isn't much different from the Double Attack Trait. So at least I could see it being possible.

I still doubt we will get Native Dual Wield, so long as we still have Shield Mastery. I would like it, but I don't think we are getting it. Then again the same thing could be said of THF at lvl 75.