So why do we have the worst Espells?

[ManaKing]

I mean the obvious answer is obvious, because RDM almost never gets the best of anything. In many ways it's valid, but generally we don't lose out on self buffs.

Enlight and Endark are obviously not Enhancing magic, but they did just blatantly steal our stuff, make it better, and then not share it with us.

I don't want Enlight and Endark. PLD and DRK can have them because it adds flavoring and I don't want to take away something that feels right for them. But what I do want is an update to Enspells for RDM.

Endark gives Attack, Enlight gives Accuracy, but Enspell 1s and 2s give nothing....
That's pretty bad. We have 2 tiers of enspells, 12 total spell and not a one is better than 1 spells that PLD and DRK has. They aren't even supposed to be mages. It's complete BS.

Solution: (aka how to make RDMs shut up) Give Enspell 1s an accuracy bonus = to your max enspell damage. 30 accuracy at max enhancing. Breaking the game on that one.

Give Enspell 2s an accuracy and attack bonus = to your current enspell calculation. If you have maxed Enhancing then it starts at around 26 and could build to 56. Still not really ground breaking since that take time to build and requires a RDM to be in combat. AND Enspell 2s would actually be useful.

If you want to be extra nice, you make is so that equipment that 'Enhances Enspell Damage' also works to add the same bonuses so you could get from Enspells. Chimeric Fleuret would add an additional 7 accuracy with enspell 1s and 7 attack and accuracy with enspell 2s.

Like is you like/want. I don't think this is unreasonable and it would make RDM with dual wield less gimp than it already is without /WAR.

[Toadie-Odie]

Don't forget, WHM has Auspice as well. The Subtle Blow effect it has applies to the entire party. However, when WHM has Afflatus Misery on and engages in combat they get an accuracy bonus everytime they miss. Would it be feasible to apply a similiar effect for the RDM enspells, but only effecting the caster?

I think the original post goes in with this idea, but boosting the enspells in some way really should be considered. When you throw in Sambas into the mix, the enspells are severely lacking. It's very difficult to convince people that RDM is a front line mage as SE has advertised but the job is given next to nothing to support that role.

[Doombringer]

I don't even want a gimmick like bonus attack or acc, just fix enspell2 to be what we all thought they were gonna be when they were announced... stronger enspells...

make them proc on all hits, not just initial. make them start at max damage, as opposed to having to build dmg every strike. make them calculate damage based on enhancing skill at the time of cast, not at the time of strike.

is it original? no. but it should be an easy improvement. (hell, could they just copy/paste the enspell 1 info and put a *2 in there at the end?)

you could argue that even then they would still be lesser than endark and enlight, but endark and enlight decay, causing a lot of wasted casting time. (particularly with enlight) compared to how much casting you wouldn't need to be doing with a non decaying, composured enspell on rdm, and it starts to add up.

[Economizer]

Don't forget, WHM has Auspice as well. The Subtle Blow effect it has applies to the entire party. However, when WHM has Afflatus Misery on and engages in combat they get an accuracy bonus everytime they miss. Would it be feasible to apply a similiar effect for the RDM enspells, but only effecting the caster?

The accuracy bonus from Auspice is a total joke ever since it got massively nerfed. Additionally Auspice lasts a comically short time, even compared to Haste. Having Afflatus Misery up is even more of a joke since the job ability currently is fairly garbage and is just about only useful for unnerfing Esuna.

Red Mages have Composure and Enspells that last at least the standard three minutes (unlike Auspice), and actually even longer under Composure, which does give an accuracy bonus. But I'm sure if SE wanted to give Enspells an additional accuracy boost, they could do that under Composure and just copy/paste the concept of Afflatus Misery, similarly to the way Scarlet Delirium feels like it was a copy/paste of the same.

I'm rambling a bit, but the main point here is that it isn't fair to compare Red Mage's Enspells to Auspice, especially since Auspice acts more like the broken Enspell II's. Red Mage's already have something better then Auspice's Afflatus Misery effects with Enspell I and Composure Accuracy Bonus currently.


I don't even want a gimmick like bonus attack or acc, just fix enspell2 to be what we all thought they were gonna be when they were announced... stronger enspells...

make them proc on all hits, not just initial. make them start at max damage, as opposed to having to build dmg every strike. make them calculate damage based on enhancing skill at the time of cast, not at the time of strike.

is it original? no. but it should be an easy improvement. (hell, could they just copy/paste the enspell 1 info and put a *2 in there at the end?)

Pretty much this, although I'd like a "gimmick" in addition to fixing Enspell IIs as described.

I would prefer giving Enspell I/II the effects of boosting Magic Affinity however, at least under Composure and when using a 1handed weapon. I'm aware Enspell II spells already have a -10 magic evasion effect on opposing elements, but this isn't really enough, and the confusing opposing element bit wouldn't stack with it anyways.

Even if in the future SE did manage to add an Affinity Shield, I doubt they would be anything more then the NQ/HQ Elemental Staff all over again, so between a shield and an enspell affinity buff you'd have a half decent jack-of-all-trades flavored boost. Additionally, even with Affinity +2 from a tier II enspell, you'd still be doing less damage then a Scholar that used a weather spell (and you wouldn't have Enlight/Endark) so this would still be reasonably balanced.

[Toadie-Odie]

I'm rambling a bit, but the main point here is that it isn't fair to compare Red Mage's Enspells to Auspice, especially since Auspice acts more like the broken Enspell II's. Red Mage's already have something better then Auspice's Afflatus Misery effects with Enspell I and Composure Accuracy Bonus currently.

I'm sorry. Not sure what else to say without digging myself a bigger hole other than your point regarding Auspice vs. Enspell II only amplifies the need for a boost of some kind to the enspells.

I don't think Auspice was intended to make WHM a front line job in a party; I think it was intended to be mainly a party buff with a mild boost for solo play.

However, RDM isn't like WHM. Since the beginning the game has advertised RDM to be a melee mage job, but I have yet to see anything significant in this game that upholds that advertisement.

[Vicious]

You aren't looking nearly hard enough.

[Toadie-Odie]

You aren't looking nearly hard enough.

That may very well be painfully true. :( I keep saying I'm going to go back to RDM and explore it more, but I haven't had much opportunity. Just one more thing on my infinite list of things to do.

[Economizer]

I don't think Auspice was intended to make WHM a front line job in a party; I think it was intended to be mainly a party buff with a mild boost for solo play.

Auspice itself is very party-centric, and is more for the 10~20% Subtle Blow it gives. While I'd still like to see it get a full three minute duration to be in line with buffs like Haste, it is a decent stand alone spell.

If anything was supposed to assist White Mage's front line role, that would probably be Afflatus Misery itself though. The ability does nothing but encourage front lining, Cura and Banish spells requiring the White Mage to take damage to buff them, Esuna's mechanism for removal requiring the White Mage to get debuffed too, and even the slight boost to Auspice to make it like an Enspell II.

The main problem is that Afflatus Solace does everything better, from Magic Defense Bonus to prevent the damage in the first place with barspells, the Holy Laser, Curaga spells just being purely better then Cura spells from the beginning to the end, and that sweet, sweet cureskin making anyone hit with a single target cure that much more survivable.

Of course, this has nothing to do with Red Mage. As said before I'd like to see Red Mage's enspells, particularly the tier II spells get a buff, but this has nothing to do with comparing things to White Mage. If you really want a good argument for Red Mage getting better enspells, I think it would be Temper - Red Mage has a good native multihit ability, so shouldn't tier II enspells synergize with this well? Or even a question about enspell II spells being better then their tier I counterparts?

[Toadie-Odie]

Of course, this has nothing to do with Red Mage. As said before I'd like to see Red Mage's enspells, particularly the tier II spells get a buff, but this has nothing to do with comparing things to White Mage. If you really want a good argument for Red Mage getting better enspells, I think it would be Temper - Red Mage has a good native multihit ability, so shouldn't tier II enspells synergize with this well? Or even a question about enspell II spells being better then their tier I counterparts?

I'm not very good with number crunching, but it's my understanding that currently the teir II enspells start at the max damage that teir I enspells offer and then are built up to max of 42 extra damage - twice that of the extra damage built up with the teir I enspells. Aside from that, the effect is restricted only to the first swing of an attack round, leaving the remaining swings open for other additional effects to proc.

Assuming that I understand that correctly...

I don't understand why enspells' damage is modified by the current enhancing magic skill as opposed to being modified by the skill at the time of casting. Most enhancing skill boosting gear is not TP friendly. Afterall you wouldn't use enspells on yourself if you didn't plan on engaging the enemy and when you do engage an enemy you want to be wearing your optimal combat gear. So I think we either need combat appropriate gear that has enhancing skill boost on it or it calculates damage only on your skill at the time of the cast.

I'm not sure how I feel about building up the damage effect to a max amount.

As for synergizing with Temper... why couldn't we have the enspell effect proc on every swing with this buff on? I can't see how this could be over powered when you compare the idea with how Sambas work. When you don't have the Temper effect on, the enspell effect only procs on the first swing. I think this would be a fair trade off.

[Vicious]

Enspell II are designed to be used in situations where you are meleeing and casting in roughly equal amounts. The damage increases with each swing to encourage you to keep swinging; the maximum damage is set higher to compensate for lost damage while casting; it only applies to the first swing to prevent them from being used purely for the damage; the magic evasion reduction is there to increase the accuracy of your spells since you're not using a staff; the damage is calculated each swing instead of at cast because... nope, I got nothing.

In other words, the reason you don't like Enspell II is because it does not fit your playstyle, not because they are terrible; they could use some work though, I'll be the first to admit.

[Toadie-Odie]

In other words, the reason you don't like Enspell II is because it does not fit your playstyle, not because they are terrible; they could use some work though, I'll be the first to admit.

Or maybe I hadn't realized I was trying to use it in a way it wasn't intended to be used? I thought I was being objective in my post but I can't deny the human tendency to taint judgment with personal experience.

What sort of work would you like to see done on the enspells?

[Vicious]

Honestly there's a lot of good ideas floating around for Enspells; enfeebling effects, tertiary effects (critical hit rate +, MDB-), elemental charging (think Afflatus Solace + Holy)... I would take any with a smile. There's really no room to complain after Boost-STR + Temper.

I think the people that complain about this issue are never going to be satisfied; Enspell I are already disgustingly powerful when Dual-Wielding, Enspell II have their niche. RDM is second-string melee; useless against high-end targets, quite powerful against targets EM and below in the hands of a skilled/geared player. This is precisely as it should be.

[Toadie-Odie]

I like the idea of MDB- although elemental charging would be interesting to play around with too.

[Vicious]

That's my personal favourite; have the damage start high, then gradually decay to zero; lower the current damage, higher the boost to next matching nuke. Does not overwrite itself, duration should be 3 minutes, with the damage reaching zero around the 2 minute mark for average-geared players. Effect wears off immediately upon receiving the nuke bonus. Recast 3 minutes. How would this not be awesome? This guy doesn't know.

[ManaKing]

I don't even want a gimmick like bonus attack or acc, just fix enspell2 to be what we all thought they were gonna be when they were announced... stronger enspells...

make them proc on all hits, not just initial. make them start at max damage, as opposed to having to build dmg every strike. make them calculate damage based on enhancing skill at the time of cast, not at the time of strike.

is it original? no. but it should be an easy improvement. (hell, could they just copy/paste the enspell 1 info and put a *2 in there at the end?)

you could argue that even then they would still be lesser than endark and enlight, but endark and enlight decay, causing a lot of wasted casting time. (particularly with enlight) compared to how much casting you wouldn't need to be doing with a non decaying, composured enspell on rdm, and it starts to add up.

I'm still torn. 60 damage a hit x2-4 an attack round is really attractive. The occasionally attacks 2-4 times sword would probably also become really attractive as well as the Onieros Knife, depending on your tastes. Being nullified by accuracy issues or any of the issues that make most higher end mobs hard targets for magic damage, is kinda meh. There are things we would beat the crap out of because we already can. In some ways I would love this because it makes us great at dispatching trash and adds, which in many ways is what RDMs are generally allowed to melee.

50ish Attack and Accuracy goes a long way to making it so RDMs can actually hit most things with decent competency. The additional damage mostly serves as a stat counter as well as a measuring stick to test the waters for magical weakness in mobs. If your enspells aren't hitting well, it might be a decent indication that you shouldn't try to nuke. We aren't realistically ever going to get Dual Wield and /WAR which is what is required for 1H jobs to be good DDs. Both our Accuracy and our Attack are a problem, so these kinds of suggestions are really the only way I can see RDM playing by the current rules and succeeding.

If RDM is allowed to be its own kind of melee mage through Enspells, then accuracy and magic accuracy for more potent Enspells is what's needed to be able to keep RDMs melee potent. The other side of M.Acc is lowering M. Eva. I've always been a fan of RDM being able to reduce magical evasion for mobs, but we just never were really good at it. Everyone ever has said make Enspell 2s reduced the M.Eva of the element you are striking with. It's just common sense, since RDM doesn't have any other elemental wheel mechanics nor do they make sense for the job. We don't have the benefit of being potent or best at anything, to give us the slack to use inefficient systems.

If you make Enspell damage significant on RDM then our Mythic becomes the personalized weapon that we all want Mythics to be. Ton of M.Acc and Occ attacks 2x or 3x would be pretty darn good if Enspells actually hit for real damage. RDMs would definitely have their paragon status similar to Rainemard.

If only there was some kind of Enhancing SP that could fix a lot of our RDM woes.....

[SpankWustler]

Enspell II are designed to be used in situations where you are meleeing and casting in roughly equal amounts. The damage increases with each swing to encourage you to keep swinging; the maximum damage is set higher to compensate for lost damage while casting; it only applies to the first swing to prevent them from being used purely for the damage; the magic evasion reduction is there to increase the accuracy of your spells since you're not using a staff; the damage is calculated each swing instead of at cast because... nope, I got nothing.

In other words, the reason you don't like Enspell II is because it does not fit your playstyle, not because they are terrible; they could use some work though, I'll be the first to admit.

A much simpler explanation is that the second tier of en-spells were designed by a deranged maniac and thus just do a bunch of arbitrary and weird stuff. To support my "a crazy man designed Tier II en-spells to appease his giant insect gods of nonsense" theory, they don't even reduce Magic Evasion to their own element.

[Hashmalum]

Most players rightfully expect that Enspell IIs should be flat-out better than Enspell Is because every other job gets tier II spells that beat the pants off their tier I counterpart. Warp II can be used for exactly what Warp I can be used for in addition to warping other people. Likewise, Raise II does everything Raise I does only with less XP loss. Same with Reraise II vs. Reraise I. Cure II heals more, Regen II heals for more per tick, tier II nukes do more damage, Dia II reduces defense more, Bio II reduces attack more and does more damage over time, Poison II does more damage over time, and on and on and on. Even in our enfeebling magics, Slow II, etc. are stronger than their tier Is. There isn't some complex tactical decision based on how much casting you are going to be doing or how many swings per round you will be making or how angry God is with you at the moment to be made when deciding to use Slow II vs. Slow I, or Bio II vs. Bio I; either you are going for effectiveness or you are procing weaknesses, and in either case your choice is cut-and-dried.

But for some reason, SE tossed this logic out the window when they made RDM tier II enhancing magic. Part of it was the era; the new abilities and systems made during that time tended to be fiddly, overcomplicated, overbalanced things that were larded down with conditions and restrictions to make absolutely sure they couldn't be used for anything other than what they were intended for, because if anything escaped Tanaka's iron grip for even a microsecond BARANSU WOULD BE RUINED FOREVER. I mean, if players could combine abilities more freely without a dozen restrictions on each one, they might come up with combinations the developers didn't foresee, and that might make them more powerful than was planned for, and that might let them complete their goals faster, and that might lead to them dropping subscriptions earlier. And that long chain of 'mights' was allowed to determine everything. There wasn't the slightest second of reflection about how enjoyable this was for players, or whether the developer's vision itself might turn people off and lead them to quit early, or what this was doing to people's long-term perception of how fit Square-Enix was to create and run MMOs. No, it was just CONTROL CONTROL CONTROL WE ARE YOUR GOD NOW WE HAVE THE VISION AND YOU WILL FILL YOUR PART IN IT. Evoliths. Absolute Virtue. The enfeebling enmity nerf. Afflatus: Misery. They each, in their own ways, reflected this mentality. The other part, of course, was that this was RDM we were talking about, and RDM is not allowed to have nice things anymore, ever.

The devs don't even have the excuse that melee jobs would be too strong if they could get Enspell II effects because there is no way that they can consistently get those effects--the devs made sure of that when they set the Enspell IIs at level 50+ and made them incompatible with Accession. There is no excuse for Enspell IIs being the way they are. None. If the devs gave one half of one tenth of a damn about this job, they'd realize that and fix it. So, do I think that they care even that much, or that they will do anything? I've been playing RDM on and off ever since 2004. That should answer your question.

[Vicious]

A much simpler explanation is that the second tier of en-spells were designed by a deranged maniac and thus just do a bunch of arbitrary and weird stuff. To support my "a crazy man designed Tier II en-spells to appease his giant insect gods of nonsense" theory, they don't even reduce Magic Evasion to their own element.

If you want to deal damage, use Enspell I. If you want to lower the target's magic evasion to x element, use the appropriate Enspell II. The spells really do make sense if you think about them; if you try to make them fit into "It has a 2 after it, it has to be better according to whatever arbitrary criteria i come up with," you're going to come up short every time. Besides, if you're single-wielding, they are better damage than Enspell I by a very wide margin. I see many posters making a mountain out of the "accuracy determined via skill on proc," but... anything you would be meleeing in the first place is not going resist you nearly enough to make it worse than Enspell I damage.

All i get from a lot of these posts is that a lot of people think RDM should be competing with WAR DRK SAM etc., which is completely ludicrous. ACC/ATK +50, 60+ damage enspells on all hits, etc... you bash Tanaka and his balance, but endorsing this kind of nonsense shows that you are just as bad; you're just on the opposite end of the spectrum.

[Doombringer]

if you try to make them fit into "It has a 2 after it, it has to be better according to whatever arbitrary criteria i come up with," you're going to come up short every time.

Except that our arbitrary criteria is the precedent set by every other spell line in the game... Every other spell with a 2 after it's name, does the job of the spell with no number next to its name, better...


I see many posters making a mountain out of the "accuracy determined via skill on proc," but... anything you would be meleeing in the first place is not going resist you nearly enough to make it worse than Enspell I damage.

It's actually DAMAGE being determined at the time of the strike as opposed to the time of the cast to. for what sane reason should you reward someone for TPing in their enhancing skill build?



EDIT: oh, also, if you really believe spankwustler wants rdms to be competing with wars, drks, and sams... well, you must be new here...

Ask him where he got the name spankwustler...

[Aethon]

Enspells could stand a change in the formula or even better a 3rd tier of them. As it stands, RDM can get 43% double attack without sacrificing damage output. So assuming best case scenario... you get and extra 120dmg per round.
Now most rounds wont have a DA and some hits will get resisted, so ball park it to...90mg.
Yet say i want to use an Excalibur. my RDM usually has 1400 hp. If the added effect dmg triggers, i hit for an additional 350 dmg. BUT enspells overwrite the effect. Go for (mostly) guaranteed damage or gamble and hope for better?

Perhaps tier 3 priority could be placed between Added effects and sambas. Then we get the best bonus but won't get sambas meaning we can't have ALL the cake and eat it too.

[Vicious]

Except that our arbitrary criteria is the precedent set by every other spell line in the game... Every other spell with a 2 after it's name, does the job of the spell with no number next to its name, better...

This is FFXI, not law school; they can do whatever the hell they want.


It's actually DAMAGE being determined at the time of the strike as opposed to the time of the cast. for what sane reason should you reward someone for TPing in their enhancing skill build?

When the target takes little to no physical damage and/or increased magical damage? This was also the correct way to Ceremonial Dagger things to death before the level cap increase kinda killed that strategy.

A little imagination goes a long way~

[Sunrider]

It's actually DAMAGE being determined at the time of the strike as opposed to the time of the cast to. for what sane reason should you reward someone for TPing in their enhancing skill build?If it were possible to find +Enspell equipment paired with Haste or Acc bonuses, or if Enspells granted an Acc and/or Minus-Delay bonus, or if Enspells converted physical damage into magical damage of the corresponding spell, then it wouldn't be a bad thing.

But, since none of the above is the case, calculating damage on strike turns out to be sloppy design intending to promote gear-horading but forcing the player to suffer mediocrity.

[Carth]

Besides, if you're single-wielding, they are better damage than Enspell I by a very wide margin.
No it isn't.

[Carth]

When the target takes little to no physical damage and/or increased magical damage?
Nuke it.

Nevermind that Requiscat shits all over that entire argument. Sitting in Haste gear with Enspells and spamming Requiscat even if it only had 1 merit would be far faster than sitting in full enhancing gear to appease to Enspell IIs.

You're grasping straws here and it shows. Enspell IIs are terribly designed and it's deafly obvious. That's why no one cares about them. And anyone with a decent bit of knowledge shouldn't care about them. Enspell Is are better in every feasible way.

[Aethon]

I tend to use tier 2 when i'm fighting something that i need to keep my hp up on. I'll use it to help with that little extra damage and ride drain samba 2 for all my other attacks to help alleviate the amount of curing needed. That's really the only time i use tier 2s. The original "idea" may have sounded good on paper but in execution it is found lacking.

[Vicious]

Nuke it.

Nevermind that Requiscat shits all over that entire argument. Sitting in Haste gear with Enspells and spamming Requiscat even if it only had 1 merit would be far faster than sitting in full enhancing gear to appease to Enspell IIs.

You're grasping straws here and it shows. Enspell IIs are terribly designed and it's deafly obvious. That's why no one cares about them. And anyone with a decent bit of knowledge shouldn't care about them. Enspell Is are better in every feasible way.

What if you need all of your MP + Sanguine Blade to survive?

It sounds to me like you've never melee'd anything harder than Easy Prey. You do realize that it's entirely possible to equip hybrid sets, such as one where you still cap haste while using Enhancing Skill gear in other slots? Or maybe somebody has more than one job leveled, and does not have Requiescat merited?

I'm not grasping at straws; it's a niche line of spells with niche uses. If you lack the imagination to see where they're useful, that's your problem not mine. Also, how do you figure Enspell I competes with Enspell II when single-wielding? You would need to average a little less than 2 hits per round for them to even break even, and the only way that's happening is if you're using a OA2~4 sword... and if that's your weapon of choice, you have bigger problems.

[Carth]

What if you need all of your MP + Sanguine Blade to survive?
Change your job.


It sounds to me like you've never melee'd anything harder than Easy Prey.
I melee'd ever since 2004. I melee'd on VT Sky mobs as /WAR when that was the main party camp. I melee'd on ToAU colibiri (IT/VT), I melee'd in Abyssea, I melee'd multiple NMs including Voidwalker NMs. I have far more credibility than you do.


You do realize that it's entirely possible to equip hybrid sets, such as one where you still cap haste while using Enhancing Skill gear in other slots? Or maybe somebody has more than one job leveled, and does not have Requiescat merited?
If you don't have Requiescat leveled, you should have Almace. If you don't have Almace, why the fuck are you meleeing on RDM?


Also, how do you figure Enspell I competes with Enspell II when single-wielding?
Enspell I's allow you to melee in Haste/atk gear while gaining the full potency of your enhancing gear. That's why.

EDIT: Oh yeah, there's Temper and Double/Triple attack gear as well.

[Vicious]

You've clearly never parsed your damage with enspell I vs II, so I wouldn't go on about who has credibility and who doesn't lol

Also, "Change your job" ? You do realize that completely invalidates any argument you make for or against RDM melee in any and all capacity, right? This is precisely why Enspell IIs are valuable; any situation where you're trying for max damage on RDM (/NIN, Enspell I, casting as little as possible), you could increase your damage by simply changing your job. Enspell II is valuable when you're meleeing in a support role with /WHM or /SCH and casting is your primary role... and you can get even more benefit out of them by using, say, Enfire II while you Accession Enwater onto your party.

Like I said before, lack of imagination.

[Doombringer]

I tend to use tier 2 when i'm fighting something that i need to keep my hp up on. I'll use it to help with that little extra damage and ride drain samba 2 for all my other attacks to help alleviate the amount of curing needed. That's really the only time i use tier 2s. The original "idea" may have sounded good on paper but in execution it is found lacking.

This is the only argument FOR current enspell2 that holds any water; sambas. And personally, I don't even like THIS argument. I feel like it holds the rest of the job back for fear of hurting this one setup.


You've clearly never parsed your damage with enspell I vs II, so I wouldn't go on about who has credibility and who doesn't lol


I think you over-estimate enspell 2.

These are my current Enhancing (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/254596) and TP (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/219339) sets. They're not perfect, but I have them and I'm a fucking nobody, so they're definitely attainable. These put me at 13% DA from gear, and 20% DA from temper, for 33% double attack in the tp set.

The enhancing set also puts my enspell 1 at 30 dmg per hit, every hit, for the entire duration.

Enspell 2 would start at 26 and build to 52 over the duration, assuming the lesser accuracy of enspell2 NEVER comes up. I also assumed I wasn't tping in my enhancing build, because the loss of all those other stats is simply not justified by an extra 4-8 dmg per swing, (in any situation, against any mob. as was pointed out: requiscat exists) but that's still capped +merited enhancing skill. Someone with better gear might not need to merit enhancing skill, so that would sway things further into enspell1s favor.

so when you consider the time it takes to build up, and the fact that you're missing out on 33% secondary attacks even without dual wield, enspell 2s just aren't THAT good. not to mention that they're only ever even slightly better in a "worst" case scenario. (if you really can't dual wield, then your dmg is going to fall apart anyway)

It's not an issue of "is there ever any use for enspell2 if you think hard enough?" it's an issue of "what's actually GOOD?" and the setups that are actually "good", do not use enspell 2.




That's also ignoring the triple attack on my tp build, or any multi-hit atmas/buffs you might be using/getting. But I'm not looking to play lawyerball (it's not much TA anyway)

[Vicious]

so when you consider the time it takes to build up, and the fact that you're missing out on 33% secondary attacks even without dual wield, enspell 2s just aren't THAT good. not to mention that they're only ever even slightly better in a "worst" case scenario. (if you really can't dual wield, then your dmg is going to fall apart anyway)

This is the point; the "worst case scenario" you just described is pretty much the only time you should be meleeing on RDM in the first place. If you're dual-wielding, you should be on a different job. Therefore, Enspell II are actually more useful than Enspell I, as the only time you're using Enspell I is when you're dual-wielding, and the only time you're dual-wielding on RDM is when you're second-classing yourself before you even leave your MH.

[Demon6324236]

Subbing BLU such as in your example, your Enspell-IIs should be starting at about 26 damage, capping at 52 damage. Using Enspell-Is your damage is 30 per swing with the ability to proc on extra hits such as our native Double Attack from Temper, which is 20%, this is of course assuming you have 500 Enhancing Magic skill with gear and merits. So 26 damage that grows, or 30 damage that does not, sounds like En-1s should lose, but then you count in our Double Attack, 20% +gear. Lets assume I am TPing in my full DT set because whatever it is I'm fighting is hitting that hard, and I must full time it. En-IIs might have some use, because I will probably have only that 20% DA, and my overall DPS should be lower with En-Is.

Now, where your wrong. There is never a time to TP in any Enhancing Magic gear, ever. Your lowering your DPS and taking more damage by being stupid enough to do it, Haste gear is alot of extra damage, -DT gear is alot of help if your getting hit hard, Attack and Double Attack gear are great for damage. So any option your not taking here your failing for. I can not think of any slot you could ever put Enhancing Magic in without losing out on something, and most of the time from relatively easy gear to get.

[Doombringer]

This is the point; the "worst case scenario" you just described is pretty much the only time you should be meleeing on RDM in the first place. If you're dual-wielding, you should be on a different job. Therefore, Enspell II are actually more useful than Enspell I, as the only time you're using Enspell I is when you're dual-wielding, and the only time you're dual-wielding on RDM is when you're second-classing yourself before you even leave your MH.

I feel like this is the crux of the issue right here, I have WILDLY different opinions on when it is or is not appropriate to melee on rdm.

In my opinion, if you are in a situation where you are forced to single wield (lets use /sch for example) then there must be a REASON for that.
Maybe the mob can inflict crippling status ailments and you need addendum white?
Maybe the mob is capable of dealing lots of damage, so you need the mp saved by light arts?
Maybe you have a huge casting load that can be mitigated by accession?
Maybe you expect tons of agro or linking, enough to justify manifestation for sleepga?


There are plenty of solid arguments for not subbing nin or dancer, but they are all ALSO fairly solid arguments for just not meleeing at all. You're contributing minimal damage because of the /sch sub, while also subjecting yourself to all the bad stuff that's CAUSING you to choose the /sch sub. So I don't think I would ever deem it prudent to be meleeing while subbing sch.


BUT! What if you DON'T need all that?
What if you're only expecting the occasional link/agro? What if sleep/2, bind, break, and gravity/2 are enough crowd control?
What if there's nothing TO -na?
What if the mobs DON'T spam huge damage attacks, or if your friend is a thf or a nin who will only need a little healing to keep him fighting fit? (But still some so they don't die the death of a thousand cuts?)

A SUBLESS rdm could handle this no problem, but I still wouldn't be able to hop on warrior unless there was another dedicated mage. In that situation, why NOT sub nin? Why NOT get the mobs dead faster while still being able to keep the group running?

[Carth]

You've clearly never parsed your damage with enspell I vs II, so I wouldn't go on about who has credibility and who doesn't lol
Math exists. You should use it sometime.


Also, "Change your job" ? You do realize that completely invalidates any argument you make for or against RDM melee in any and all capacity, right? This is precisely why Enspell IIs are valuable; any situation where you're trying for max damage on RDM (/NIN, Enspell I, casting as little as possible), you could increase your damage by simply changing your job. Enspell II is valuable when you're meleeing in a support role with /WHM or /SCH and casting is your primary role... and you can get even more benefit out of them by using, say, Enfire II while you Accession Enwater onto your party.

Change your job exists, and it exists because it is the most logical and sound answer. Almost every job can perform solos, party play, and alliance play better than RDM. It's not an invalidation, it's an answer we all ignore because don't care about it.

Even so, even if we say, our change job function is broken and we'd have to play on RDM, you'd still be wrong. Even if we were /BLU and meleeing on a jerk mob that hit us for 200 damage a pop, with triple attack and powerful AoEs, the answer is not do some hillariously bad Enhancing/Haste set which puts you under the haste cap and craps out your melee damage. You use -DT gear, Phalanx, Stoneskin, Cocoon, and outlast it. Even then, Enspell Is are better for the reasons already stated.


This is the point; the "worst case scenario" you just described is pretty much the only time you should be meleeing on RDM in the first place. If you're dual-wielding, you should be on a different job. Therefore, Enspell II are actually more useful than Enspell I, as the only time you're using Enspell I is when you're dual-wielding, and the only time you're dual-wielding on RDM is when you're second-classing yourself before you even leave your MH.

If this is how your imagination works, I'm glad I don't have one.

[ManaKing]

A little imagination goes a long way~

Like thinking that +50 Attack and Accuracy would put RDM anywhere near WAR, SAM, or DRK? Imaginary. All it would do is fix our Accuracy issues and leave us behind in damage.

P.S. Maybe the reason we have the worst Enspells is because people actually think EnSpell 2s are actually good, when anyone that actually plays a RDM knows that they aren't.

Neither tier of Enspells really even beat out the additional proc on Excalibur.

Also get back to Enspell talk and get off telling Vicious how non-sensical they are. We can all read. They've already made their case; they are somewhere close to misinformed or unintentional troll. Either way they have an overabundance of 'imagination' and I think most of us actually wanted to factor in how the game is played by people that actually bring a RDM to a fight.

I'm assuming that everyone can agree that Enspells could still really use some work.

[Vicious]

And you people wonder why the devs ignore the RDM section of the forums, lol

For the record, you only use hybrid enhancing/haste gear when the target is taking little to no damage from physical attacks, not all the time. I stated this quite clearly.

Playing word salad with my posts to paint me crazy doesn't make you any less wrong.

[sweetidealism]

I dunno what may be the right way to fix enspells, but one change I would DEFINITELY like to see is a priority change. Of course, we have already been told that will not happen, but I will post what I would like to see anyway.

Ideal priorities for added effects:

Weapon's added effect
Sambas
Enspells


I think allowing a weapon's added effect to take highest priority should be a no brainer. If I have put the effort into getting an amazing weapon with an amazing additional effect, then I think it is an injustice to force me to choose between that added effect and an enspell. I understand that it is impossible for both to process at once, but a simple change in priority would allow me to use my reliable enspells without the penalty of losing my weapon's occasional additional effects.

Sambas fall in second because I would rather have the haste than the magic damage. If I understand correctly, at least Enlight and Endark would provide their respective accuracy/attack buffs, no?

Of course, that still leaves Red Mage's enspells in the dust since they would NOT provide any sort of buff, AND would be overridden by sambas. Oops. Definitely a problem, there. I don't know how it should be fixed, but I sure hope it's fixed somehow.

(Maybe Red Mage could get a trait that causes enspells to give them a little bit of attack speed reduction? 10% at most. I do not think it should be innate to the spell itself, since that would make them step on Dancers' toes when they were inevitably used with Accession, but it would still make them useful in situations where haste samba was being provided yet blocked by an enspell.)

[Carth]

Also get back to Enspell talk and get off telling Vicious how non-sensical they are. We can all read. They've already made their case; they are somewhere close to misinformed or unintentional troll. Either way they have an overabundance of 'imagination' and I think most of us actually wanted to factor in how the game is played by people that actually bring a RDM to a fight.
But it's so tempting... the stupidity is too strong... must... hold back...

[ManaKing]

And you people wonder why the devs ignore the RDM section of the forums, lol

For the record, you only use hybrid enhancing/haste gear when the target is taking little to no damage from physical attacks, not all the time. I stated this quite clearly.

Playing word salad with my posts to paint me crazy doesn't make you any less wrong.

You're discounting an entire job at best and being intentionally insulting at worst. Please keep your, "You People" to yourself and argue points that make sense to argue instead of looking for a fight by bringing up illogical situations and making purposefully inflammatory statements about spell mechanics that are plain to anyone that actually plays the job you claim to know.

We don't have to have a pissing contest, but it seems like you don't want to do anything but pee on this topic. Prove me wrong by not acting like a child on the internet.


Back on topic, why are jobs that don't need accuracy or attack given enspells that give them those stats; while RDM, which clearly has a B in swords and daggers and no JAs besides Composure's outdated contribution to enhance their stats, are not given them?

Don't take Enlight from PLD, but they do have an A in swords and don't really have accuracy issues generally. DRK is riding pretty high these days and it has plenty of JAs and spells to buff them. I don't have any interest in nerfs being discussed for either jobs because taking away their spells is unwarranted. But I think RDM not having equivalent Enspells is also unwarranted. The issue is, "why shouldn't RDM get nice things as well?"

[ManaKing]

I dunno what may be the right way to fix enspells, but one change I would DEFINITELY like to see is a priority change. Of course, we have already been told that will not happen, but I will post what I would like to see anyway.

Ideal priorities for added effects:

Weapon's added effect
Sambas
Enspells


I think allowing a weapon's added effect to take highest priority should be a no brainer. If I have put the effort into getting an amazing weapon with an amazing additional effect, then I think it is an injustice to force me to choose between that added effect and an enspell. I understand that it is impossible for both to process at once, but a simple change in priority would allow me to use my reliable enspells without the penalty of losing my weapon's occasional additional effects.

Sambas fall in second because I would rather have the haste than the magic damage. If I understand correctly, at least Enlight and Endark would provide their respective accuracy/attack buffs, no?

Of course, that still leaves Red Mage's enspells in the dust since they would NOT provide any sort of buff, AND would be overridden by sambas. Oops. Definitely a problem, there. I don't know how it should be fixed, but I sure hope it's fixed somehow.

(Maybe Red Mage could get a trait that causes enspells to give them a little bit of attack speed reduction? 10% at most. I do not think it should be innate to the spell itself, since that would make them step on Dancers' toes when they were inevitably used with Accession, but it would still make them useful in situations where haste samba was being provided yet blocked by an enspell.)

Good name, nice post. If it worked that you could rearrange the priorities that way and you would get the Acc/Atk from Enlight/Dark while still getting Sambas, that would be pretty cool. I'm not sure if the stats would degrade that way, which I assume is the reason that they don't do it.

If RDM got any additional stats from their Enspells then this would be pretty sweet. In the case that you actually want people hitting with Enspells you just ask people not to use their Sambas. You also get Excalibur procs, which are delightful, in addition to your regular enspells or sambas. This would effectively be buff for both RDM and PLD, and most people would agree both jobs could use a buff or two.

PS thanks for restoring my faith in people on the internet. This is one of the more complete ideas I've heard on these forums in awhile.

[Demon6324236]

And you people wonder why the devs ignore the RDM section of the forums, lol

For the record, you only use hybrid enhancing/haste gear when the target is taking little to no damage from physical attacks, not all the time. I stated this quite clearly.

Playing word salad with my posts to paint me crazy doesn't make you any less wrong.No, your still wrong. You would still never use a hybrid set of Enhancing Magic and Haste, because Haste would keep your damage higher and make your En-II damage higher even still because the faster growth rate of your potency. The changes suggested for En-IIs should be done, why? Because the way a second tier works is that its meant to be better than the first. Not that it is meant to be situational and different in a way that may or may not completely suck. Which is exactly what the problem is with En-II spells.

En-IIs not effecting more than the first hit is a DOWNGRADE not an UPGRADE which is what a second tier is. Gravity II, -40 EVA instead of -20. Phalanx II, targets other players, not only self targeting. Tier II nukes, does more damage than Tier I nukes. So why are En-IIs weaker in ANY situation, than an En-I spell is?

En-IIs simply needed to be made exactly like the original but with a change or 2 that would make it more effective. For example, damage growing with each hit, that works, just make it so that it grows with each hit, and is the same as tier I spells in every other way.

Your argument has been to justify a stupid choice on SEs part. Talking as if them being weaker in any situation is right, or a good thing. Its not acceptable, and its stupid. You know why they don't pay attention to RDM forums? Because we have more people who play RDM that have no idea how to play the job than any other job in the game. We are more reliant on a subjob than any other job in the game because we have nothing unique to ourselves, which almost every other job does. You right now are proving my point about people not understanding.

What is being asked for here is a legit upgrade to a spell that was basically a downgrade on its second tier. Additional effects on weapons are stupidly made anyways. Excalibur having a lower priority than enspells, enspells making sambas worthless, En-IIs not procing on an hit except first. There are a number of flaws with additional effects on hits. En-IIs being stupid in design is not the only one, but its one of them, and your for some reason arguing that were wrong, they are good spells that should stay as they are, because the fact 90% of the RDMs who know anything about what they are doing using En-Is instead doesn't speak for itself.

The reason RDM sucks right now, is because we get no melee sets, no Athos, no Thaumas, we get screwed. When it comes to spells, they are to weak or they are not unique. When it comes to healing or nuking, we are not good at it, healing we finally are good enough to do the job, nuking is trash. The only advantage RDM had in nuking was Fast Cast, but with elemental clarity, BLM makes RDM look like a piece of trash in magic damage. En-spells were taken over by PLD and DRK, soon they are adding a new job who uses En-spell like powers as a niche for itself. These are the current RDM problems, why has SE not fixed them? Because people like to run around and say they don't need to. Your doing that now with this thread.

[Carth]

snip

http://ipagos.org/applause-gif-tumblr-47.gif

[Llana_Virren]

When comparing Enspell tiers, I challenge you to assume the RDM is not using any form of DW.

[Demon6324236]

When comparing Enspell tiers, I challenge you to assume the RDM is not using any form of DW.And yet its still a downgrade in some parts, meaning it should either not be called an En-II spell, or it should be fixed to represent a proper upgrade.

[Llana_Virren]

And yet its still a downgrade in some parts, meaning it should either not be called an En-II spell, or it should be fixed to represent a proper upgrade.

Assuming no DW, please explain how it is a downgrade.

[Demon6324236]

Double Attack from Temper, Triple Attack from gear, no damage on the extra hits where there should be. Also if your single wielding an Excalibur, which both I and Iocus have, then En-IIs are also worthless because they do not stack with the additional effect which is much more potent so long as you keep your HP up. The fact the spell does not work with a trait that RDM gets natively is a flaw that should be corrected. Also, if your thinking along the lines of what a RDM without a DW sub has, then En-Is should be no different. The fact that En-Is lost features and effects going from tier I to tier II is the flaw most people see in the spells, and they are correct.

[Asymptotic]

The additional effect has a 7% proc rate. Excalibur's additional effect is only more powerful than Enspell Is if you consistently have more than 1715 HP.

[Carth]

Assuming no DW, please explain how it is a downgrade.

We just explained this about ~3-6 posts ago.

[Demon6324236]

Not when only using a weapon in your main hand so far as I know, which is what I was told to assume.

[ManaKing]

What does it feel like when you double attack with Enspell 2s up? Like you just got cheated.

Joyeuse was darn good for a long time on RDM and 2 out of 4 Prestige weapons suffer complications because of how Enspells are setup (3 if you count the poison effect on Mandau). Enspells are a sloppy mess. SE has the ability to fix RDM so that it could be competent, but they choose not to or they aren't aware of how unattractive mechanics play out and affect their player base. We all understand that would take time and resources away from whatever else is being done, but this doesn't just affect RDM. It also affects PLD, DNC, and DRK. I'm pretty sure reversing the priority order of additional affects as stated by sweet idealism is the best we've gotten out of this discussion so far. It makes a lot of sense because it gives better preference to party synergy and would help jobs that aren't very desirable while not hurting jobs that are doing fine already.

Enspell 2s are a reflection of our problems and is one of the biggest reasons we are where we are. Bad choices that were poorly designed with little to no insight for the future. We have Shield Mastery with no shields worth giving up dual wield. Higher Tier Enspells that don't stack with additional attacks. Temper that doesn't have synergy with Enspell 2s. It's like they didn't actually give us any good direction to go. At least if Enspell 2s did more damage than Enspell 1s in all situations, we would deal more damage.

What is the point of being decent at a lot of things if devs pick all the stupid stuff that doesn't work with each other? You'd think they would give us the one trait that covers both magic and melee, Occult Accumen. But nope, that some how didn't make it on the list with Shield Mastery of things that RDM should get past 75, much less improvements to enspells in the vein of Enlight and Endark.

Please rework additional affects in general and enspells for RDM. Both could be better.

[Carth]

Maybe people aren't actually informed on how Enspell IIs work, so I'll lay out the details.

Enspell Is are very simple. The higher you enhancing, the more damage your enspells will do. @500 Enhancing your Enspells will natively do 30 damage per swing.

Enspell IIs are affected by enhancing gear per hit, instead of automatically applying the Enhancing gear on cast. This means you have to use Enhancing gear as a TP set if you wish to use Enspell IIs with full potency. Furthermore, Enspell IIs are affected by the first hit of your mainhand only. Not multihits, not dbl/tpl attack hits. Only the first hit.

Now back at 75 cap we had Joyuese, a high proc multihit weapon. Enspell IIs were obviously not ideal for this. Now we're off of Joyeuse and other multi-hit weapons because we have Temper and Double/Triple Attack gear. Players can easily get 30% Double Attack from Temper, Atheling Mantle, Brutal, and Calmecac Trousers, which also gets 3% Triple Attack. You can also get capped haste rather easily in this game if you work for it, which allows for increased chances for double attack and triple attack to proc.

I'm not a FFXI mathematician, but logic states that the more you get Double/Triple attack to proc, the less value Enspell IIs have. If you don't have Double/Triple attack, obviously Enspell IIs win, but that's impossible because we have Temper. And even if we didn't have Temper, we'd be using OAT swords.

In other words, even when Single-Wielding, the only way that Enspell IIs are stronger than Enspell I is if your gear is absolutely terrible.

[Vicious]

Thesis : When single-wielding, Enspell II damage > Enspell I damage.

-Obviously, if you are dual-wielding, Enspell I damage is going to win every time, no contest.
-If you are dual-wielding, you are using /NIN or maybe /DNC.
-If you are using /NIN, you are either solo, or using DW3 to maximize your melee DoT.
-If you are attempting to maximize your melee DoT, you are minimizing your casting to the absolute bare essentials.
-If you are minimizing your casting as such, there's really no reason you shouldn't be on another job for better results.
-Even if you insist on playing RDM in this role, one must admit that a RDM that is attempting to cast the fewest spells possible really isn't contributing anything to the party beyond damage, which is better facilitated by other jobs, and therefore it is silly to be upset with other players for not choosing said RDM over another melee job.
-Therefore, the only time RDM is truly useful in today's metagame is when playing a true combat-caster role; meleeing when possible, but providing support to the party via Healing, Enhancing, and Enfeebling magic.
-In order to facilitate this role, /SCH and /WHM tend to be the best choices, which prevent the use of Dual-Wield.
-So, logic concludes that maximizing one's damage while single-wielding should be the RDM's goal in today's game.

On to gear:

xxx/Colossus's/Augmenting/xxx
Duelist+2/Duelist+2/xxx/xxx
Estoqueur/Olympus/Portent/Estoqueur+2

Enhancing 404 + 16 = 420 base skill, 26 base damage on both enspell tiers; casting Enspell I with +84 in gear gives you 30 damage per strike.

Melee gear:

Brisk or Brego/Portus/Suppa/Brutal
Shedir/Dusk+1/Rajas/Ambuscade
Atheling/Phasmida/Calmecac/Eurus

26% Haste, 17% DA, 2% TA ; add Temper @ 500 skill for 37% DA, 2% TA, which gives you 1.37 attacks per round.

Let's assume Almace for our purposes: delay 224. Let's say 58 delay ~ 1 second for this weapon.

Both Enspells are cast with Composure and Enhancing duration + gear, giving a duration of 702 seconds.

And now, math!

-Delay 224 weapon with 40% haste becomes 134, which works out to 2.3 seconds per attack round, which gives you about 305 attack rounds for the duration of either spell.

-Enspell II will require 26 rounds to reach full potential of 52 damage per round. Enspell II will deal 1053 damage over those 26 rounds, while Enspell I will deal... 1068 damage over this period as well (30 damage * 26 rounds * 1.37 attacks per round).

-279 attack rounds remain for the duration, so simple math shows us that Enspell I will deal 11,466 damage (30 damage * 279 rounds * 1.37 attacks per round), while Enspell II will deal 14,508 damage (52 damage * 279 rounds).

-This brings our grand total to 12,534 damage for Enspell I, and 15,561 damage for Enspell II. Enspell II will result in 24% more damage.

Now, let's discuss the other variables involved and how they would influence these numbers:

-As is clearly obvious by the above arithmetic, you need 1.73 hits per round for Enspell I to overtake Enspell II for damage; guaranteed while dual-wielding, essentially impossible while single-wielding.

-Casting load is going to be the same regardless, so it is not a variable in this case.

-We are assuming that Enspell I and II have the same accuracy in this case; there is no evidence to suggest magic accuracy for Enspell II varies beyond initial casting, but even if it does, the difference in skill is too small to make more than a negligible difference vs. anything RDM should be meleeing.

-Sambas do proc on double/triple attacks, even with Enspell II active, giving Enspell II an even larger advantage if a DNC or /DNC is present.

~~~~~

There, mathematical proof of my thesis. Anyone care to attempt an intelligent rebuttal, or are we going to stick to the usual "You're stupid, you don't play RDM, I melee'd Aura Statues in 2005" retorts?

[Sunrider]

Sooo what about multi-hit weapons?

And Temper?

And Double/Triple Attack traits? I didn't see any of those mentioned.

[Vicious]

-Multi-hit weapons are universally garbage.

-Temper is factored into the above numbers.

-10 DA from /WAR is not going to increase your attacks per round from 1.37 to 1.73.

[Doombringer]

Thesis : When single-wielding, Enspell II damage > Enspell I damage.

-Obviously, if you are dual-wielding, Enspell I damage is going to win every time, no contest.
-If you are dual-wielding, you are using /NIN or maybe /DNC.
-If you are using /NIN, you are either solo, or using DW3 to maximize your melee DoT.
-If you are attempting to maximize your melee DoT, you are minimizing your casting to the absolute bare essentials.
-If you are minimizing your casting as such, there's really no reason you shouldn't be on another job for better results.
-Even if you insist on playing RDM in this role, one must admit that a RDM that is attempting to cast the fewest spells possible really isn't contributing anything to the party beyond damage, which is better facilitated by other jobs, and therefore it is silly to be upset with other players for not choosing said RDM over another melee job.
-Therefore, the only time RDM is truly useful in today's metagame is when playing a true combat-caster role; meleeing when possible, but providing support to the party via Healing, Enhancing, and Enfeebling magic.
-In order to facilitate this role, /SCH and /WHM tend to be the best choices, which prevent the use of Dual-Wield.
-So, logic concludes that maximizing one's damage while single-wielding should be the RDM's goal in today's game.

I tackled this 2 pages ago. And I feel like it's the REAL point of this discussion. I wish I had more to add but I already said my piece on it... 2 pages ago.


-We are assuming that Enspell I and II have the same accuracy in this case; there is no evidence to suggest magic accuracy for Enspell II varies beyond initial casting.

Except for observation, and the fact that we know it calculates damage on strike, and that enspells use enhancing skill for accuracy as well. So when you KNOW for a fact that the damage is calculated on strike, and you can SEE it getting resisted more often, it's not a huge leap to also assume it's recalculating accuracy on strike as well. leaving you with about -80 skill worth of acc. Ignore that at your own risk.



There, mathematical proof of my thesis. Anyone care to attempt an intelligent rebuttal, or are we going to stick to the usual "You're stupid, you don't play RDM, I melee'd Aura Statues in 2005" retorts?

Happy now? Because I think I've been having a respectful discussion here this whole time, (at least as respectful as you're gonna get on the internet) or is it just more fun to play the martyr?

[Vicious]

-I also tackled it '2 pages ago,' I simply felt it was worth restating my entire line of thought for context.

-Whose observation are we basing this on, the RDMs on this forum who've been screaming that Enspell IIs are total garbage, worthless, worse than Enspell I? I'm going to stick with my parser, thanks. However, for the sake of argument, lets factor in resists and do some calculations, shall we? I'm going to stick to 1/2 resists only for the sake of napkin math:

Enspell I damage : 12,534 damage
Enspell I damage at capped magic accuracy (95%) : 12,221 damage

Now, let's solve for Enspell II magic accuracy to equal Enspell I damage:

Enspell II damage : 14,508 damage

Solve for x = magic accuracy

(305*52x)+[305*26(1-x)] = 12,221
15860x + [7930(1-x)] = 12,221
x= .54

Given that 1/4 resists and lower are going to drive the results slightly lower, I'm comfortable bumping this result up a few notches to 56%

Highest magic accuracy possible on Enspell II for Enspell I to break even = ~56%

Granted, there hasn't been any conclusive testing on the subject, but the notion that 80 Enhancing skill is going to make a 39% difference in magic accuracy is pretty ridiculous. I can tell you that in every event I've brought RDM to be useful and melee(read: not Legion, NNI), I've never parsed less then ~80% magic accuracy on my Enspell IIs. Then again, I'm sure you guys are gonna believe whatever you want to believe regardless of math or facts.

Also, how can you posit that "if damage is determined upon strike, then so must accuracy" when half this thread has been spent bitching how ridiculous it is that Enspell 2 are (seemingly) worse than Enspell I, on account of there being a 'II' in the name of the spell? I've gotta say, that's some Romney-tier flip-flopping, bravo.

~~~~~


Happy now? Because I think I've been having a respectful discussion here this whole time, (at least as respectful as you're gonna get on the internet) or is it just more fun to play the martyr?

That was largely directed at Carth, not you, so you tell me; is it fun playing the martyr? /eyeroll

[Carth]

I have to say this is hilarious.

I looked over the math myself and calculated the delay, as well as TA/DA added on together. There's some nitpick mistakes such as there's 312 attacks total instead of 305, attack average is 1.40 instead of 1.37, Delay is 2.25 seconds instead of 2.3 seconds. However, I call that nitpicking because I came very close to the same number Vicious got (1.238; ~24% rounded up). I have not decided to go into resist rates as it's beyond me at the moment, and it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

So bravo, Vicious, you proved that Enspell II is better for Single Wielding.

[ManaKing]

So....Dual Wield with /NIN and Enspell 1s is still better and you're still not contributing to a discussion about why we have the worst Enspells in the game.

Stay on task. No one is interested in discussing why a RDM should be

second-classing yourself before you even leave your MH.

If you really don't want to contribute to that discussion, then you don't have to post. Any logic that dictates the use of Enspell 2s over Enspell 1s because it's improper for a RDM to dual wield has absolutely no bearing. Plenty of RDMs can and do use Dual Wield because it contributes a meaningful increase to their total damage. RDMs have received such poorly planned buffs to their native job that the best way to increase their power is to look outside of their native job for the best possible damage solution. Until you can find legitimate damage calculations for how Enspell 2s single wield > Enspell 1s dual wield, there is no reason for you to waste your breath on that subject, since it would be off topic.

I'm sure the notion is not lost on you that we are all playing a video game. And in that video game, we are given the decision of which jobs we play. You point out that a dual wield RDM is a second-class job, but the rest of us are aware that RDM is a second-class job in its entirety. There is no proper way to play RDM that is mathematically more significant than any other job in the game that is designed to do what a RDM is doing. For those of us that continue to play a broken and outdated job that has no perceivable future, we like to ask questions, like 'Why do we have the worst Enspells in the game?' because we would honestly like someone that can contribute to that subject either as a forum poster or game dev representative that is good enough to satisfy us.

Why is it acceptable for RDM, much less any job, to be weaker than other jobs? People that play those jobs pay just as much money for their monthly services and it's not unrealistic for us to want to have just as many nice things as other people. Video games are about escapism and having fun in a world that was designed to be fun. Why would you want to intentionally make people not have fun by neglecting the things they enjoy about your game? The best answer I have is that devs just don't understand what makes some of their jobs fun and meaningful. RDM is pretty fun, even though it is sub par, but it would be significantly more fun if it were up to snuff. The game has, in many ways, devolved into a damage race between DDs with very little else valued because of a broken hate system and foolish NMs that lack intelligent design. Why not give jobs the ability to survive in harsher conditions instead of making a handful of jobs good and the rest of them barely hobbies?

'Why can't RDM be played seriously and significantly?' is at the back of every forum post in the RDM forums and it's getting rather old that devs don't seem to understand why we are so adamant that we need to be buffed into something that actually looks like a job in a Final Fantasy game.

[Mageoholic]

Enspell II are designed to be used in situations where you are meleeing and casting in roughly equal amounts. The damage increases with each swing to encourage you to keep swinging; the maximum damage is set higher to compensate for lost damage while casting; it only applies to the first swing to prevent them from being used purely for the damage; the magic evasion reduction is there to increase the accuracy of your spells since you're not using a staff; the damage is calculated each swing instead of at cast because... nope, I got nothing.

In other words, the reason you don't like Enspell II is because it does not fit your playstyle, not because they are terrible; they could use some work though, I'll be the first to admit.

The only use Enspell IIs possibly have is DNC or /DNC being present and gaining access to Haste Samba, or in situations where Genbus shield is nice to have to reduce AoE physical or direct physical in solo situations. That is it.

Otherwise the spells are garbage. Even in periods of casting. Losing an attack round is not made up by the damage in the next attack round, it is gone regardless. If I cast with an EN2 and the cast haste on someone, I miss an attack round, for sake of argument lets say I lose 50DMG from my sword, and 50DMG from my enspell. My next attack after the Haste is 50 damage for my sword, 51 damage for my enspell.

1 damage gained from casting a spell. 1/100 = 1%. 1% of my damage returned from my missed attack round.

They need to be fixed in some way. Personally id rather see debuffs attached to them that slowly increase in value the more you hit. Something like the Elemental Debuffs that target mobs stats. Instead of decreasing though they increase until at max level.

EnfireII INT
EnBlizzard AGI
Enaero VIT
Enthunder MND
Enwater STR
enStone DEX

Progress from 1-25 and remain capped until the spell is recast, or falls off.


But focusing on increasing the damage, please. No one is going to bring a RDM for damage, unless we start swinging Blizzard 4's at the enemy for 7.5 minutes.

[Mageoholic]

So any option your not taking here your failing for. I can not think of any slot you could ever put Enhancing Magic in without losing out on something, and most of the time from relatively easy gear to get.

Hollow Earring is about it, and outside of Abyssea (where enspells represent a larger portion of damage done) it actually competes very well with Brutal Earring. At 75 It was slightly ahead overall in total damage done. I would imagine the same holds true today, with the diminishing value of DA as a % of total damage.

[Vicious]

So....Dual Wield with /NIN and Enspell 1s is still better and you're still not contributing to a discussion about why we have the worst Enspells in the game.

Stay on task. No one is interested in discussing why a RDM should be


If you really don't want to contribute to that discussion, then you don't have to post. Any logic that dictates the use of Enspell 2s over Enspell 1s because it's improper for a RDM to dual wield has absolutely no bearing. Plenty of RDMs can and do use Dual Wield because it contributes a meaningful increase to their total damage. RDMs have received such poorly planned buffs to their native job that the best way to increase their power is to look outside of their native job for the best possible damage solution. Until you can find legitimate damage calculations for how Enspell 2s single wield > Enspell 1s dual wield, there is no reason for you to waste your breath on that subject, since it would be off topic.


I'm sorry, where was the discussion about RDM having the worst enspells in the game? I was under the impression that this was simply yet another thread where the usual suspects congregate and moan about how horrible RDM is, mostly due to their collective cluelessness about such things as game mechanics and balance and confusing the shining ideal of the Red Mage in their minds with what is actually possible in the confines of a MMORPG.

But hey, I don't wanna be that guy that rambles off topic, so here you go: RDM does not have the worst enspells in the game; that honor belongs to DRK and Endark, by a loooooooong mile.

Before anyone makes the mistake of refuting this, I implore you to do a little research as to why I might say such a thing, or at the very least, ask a DRK that doesn't TP in full Bale+2, as to avoid further embarrassment.

Now that that's out of the way, there will be no further need to post here. Requesting a moderator to lock to prevent further off-topic posting.

[Demon6324236]

Thats not enhancing magic gear either, the only possible choice would be the neck because other than Portus and Rancor there are not many good necks, and in a situation where you need HP, Rancor is bad, so that left Portus which is a pain to get. Earring should never have enhancing, Hollow is not bad however its not enhancing so I did not count it.

[Mageoholic]

-I also tackled it '2 pages ago,' I simply felt it was worth restating my entire line of thought for context.

-Whose observation are we basing this on, the RDMs on this forum who've been screaming that Enspell IIs are total garbage, worthless, worse than Enspell I? I'm going to stick with my parser, thanks. However, for the sake of argument, lets factor in resists and do some calculations, shall we? I'm going to stick to 1/2 resists only for the sake of napkin math:

Enspell I damage : 12,534 damage
Enspell I damage at capped magic accuracy (95%) : 12,221 damage

Now, let's solve for Enspell II magic accuracy to equal Enspell I damage:

Enspell II damage : 14,508 damage

Solve for x = magic accuracy

(305*52x)+[305*26(1-x)] = 12,221
15860x + [7930(1-x)] = 12,221
x= .54

Given that 1/4 resists and lower are going to drive the results slightly lower, I'm comfortable bumping this result up a few notches to 56%

Highest magic accuracy possible on Enspell II for Enspell I to break even = ~56%

Granted, there hasn't been any conclusive testing on the subject, but the notion that 80 Enhancing skill is going to make a 39% difference in magic accuracy is pretty ridiculous. I can tell you that in every event I've brought RDM to be useful and melee(read: not Legion, NNI), I've never parsed less then ~80% magic accuracy on my Enspell IIs. Then again, I'm sure you guys are gonna believe whatever you want to believe regardless of math or facts.

Also, how can you posit that "if damage is determined upon strike, then so must accuracy" when half this thread has been spent bitching how ridiculous it is that Enspell 2 are (seemingly) worse than Enspell I, on account of there being a 'II' in the name of the spell? I've gotta say, that's some Romney-tier flip-flopping, bravo.

~~~~~



That was largely directed at Carth, not you, so you tell me; is it fun playing the martyr? /eyeroll

Ok first off, Enhancing magic has been established to represent .9 or 1 MACC (the fractional resist rates throw a cog into precise pinpointing.) So 80 ENH Skill is worth either 72 MACC (36% Hit Rate) and 80 MACC (40% hit rate) the Average is a 38% Hit Rate.

This means your lowest possible match point is 57%.

Now Enhancing MACC is directly related to a Mobs MEVA which we know is the term for Resistance, and is effectively a C skill neutrally. AT 75 cap mobs had 1 strong element, 1 weak element, and 6 neutral elements based on their crystal association. Ie. Fire Mobs were strong in fire, weak to water, and neutral to everything else. There is no reason to assume this model has changed and I personally can attest to that conclusion.

However the variance is relatively unknown at 75 it was a B- > D system which resulted in a 30 point spread. Or a 15 point increase on either side of neutrality. (7.5% land rate.) This may have changed I do not know, but it is easier for RDM to over cap this now due to skill progression differential. (D skills progressed less than B skills post Abyssea) because of this unknown element I will continue my post using C skill as the basis for discussion (keep in mind that using the strong enspell to the mobs element will result in more MACC, and the weak enspell in less, I just leave them out because the numbers are not really known because of skewed progression.)

Lets Assume we are facing a mob of level 99 and Even Match.

RDM MACC = 399 (AVG of both .9 and 1 systems)
MOB MEVA = 373 (C rank skill)

Because the mob is Even Match our ability to effect the mob is 75% (the basis of all ACC and MACC calculations begins at 75% and either increases or decreases depending on MACC, MEVA relations)

(MACC-MEVA)/2 = 13% Land rate.

Effectively we have a land rate on a neutral mob of 89% for EN2's.
EN1's have 38% more Land rate, putting them at Cap 95%.

Now lets look at a level 107 MOB an IT to a 99
(this is kind of where we hypothesis)
Assuming the skill progression remains constant past 99, said mob now has

373 + 8*7 = 429 Skill.
RDM still 399.

MACC-MEVA = (399-429)/2 = -15% 75-15 = 60%

The Enspell 1 set up has 38% to play with. Still capped.
The Enspell 2 set up is now at 60% MACC.

Now lets look mob at level 110. An arbitrary number, but most HNM's back in the day were 10-15 levels higher than players, so lets assume similar progressions post abyssea.

MEVA = 373 + 11*7 = 450
MACC = 399

MACC-MEVA = 399-450/2 = -25.5

Enspell 2 is now at 49.5MACC
Enspell 1 is now at 75+38-25.5 = 87.5%

or if you are keeping track, 38% more accurate than Enspell II.

In the end ENII's will average the same damage as EN1's in a single handed scenario.

Unless of course that single hand weapon is a Multi Attack weapon. (EN1s win in every case.)

This is why ENII's suck for damage on anything that matters. Even if you factor in Merits, the 7.5% Caps EN1's and leaves EN2's at that magical number of 57%

38% difference is the break point, not 39%.

But ya the MACC data has been around for a long time. So long that I am shocked I had to type all that out.

Outside of regular content, the difference in damage is equal. They essentially provide the same damage, the only thing ENII's offer is the MEVA reduction, which is neglible at best.



Lyltia: RDM SCH BLM WHM NIN SMN BLU PLD
Aegis 95 Kannagi 90 Almace 90 Hvergelmir 90


Somehow I am not surprised.


I'm sorry, where was the discussion about RDM having the worst enspells in the game? I was under the impression that this was simply yet another thread where the usual suspects congregate and moan about how horrible RDM is, mostly due to their collective cluelessness about such things as game mechanics and balance and confusing the shining ideal of the Red Mage in their minds with what is actually possible in the confines of a MMORPG.

The ironing they say is delicious.


Now that that's out of the way, there will be no further need to post here. Requesting a moderator to lock to prevent further off-topic posting.

:rolleyes:

Ya because you were proven wrong, the thread is off topic. funny how you always run off from a discussion after looking like a fool.

See you on Alla!

[Mageoholic]

Thats not enhancing magic gear either, the only possible choice would be the neck because other than Portus and Rancor there are not many good necks, and in a situation where you need HP, Rancor is bad, so that left Portus which is a pain to get. Earring should never have enhancing, Hollow is not bad however its not enhancing so I did not count it.

It directly increases Enspell damage, why would you not count it?

For EN1's its a 10% increase to damage, For EN2's it is an 11% increase falling to 5% at cap.

[Vicious]

So you wrote an essay, cool. If I followed correctly, what you're saying is that RDM's melee damage is going to completely suck against anything above Even Match? And that against Even Match targets (or weaker), Enspell IIs will have an effective accuracy of higher than ~56% even when the accuracy of an Enspell I of the same element has just barely enough accuracy to reach 95%?

I'm flattered that you, of all people, spent so much time typing up such a long-winded assent of everything I've already posted in this thread. Thanks!

[Carth]

Now that that's out of the way, there will be no further need to post here.
Do you have the power to declare that? I don't think you do. While you proved your point with Single-wield Enspell IIs, you haven't proved anything else. The laughable melee in full enhancing gear idea, the incredibly situational high -PDT mobs where you blatantly dismissed Requiescat and nuking, and finally the terrible justification to your argument that was ripped straight out of 2005 to appease your want to make Enspell IIs look good.

You have absolutely no reason to be telling moderators to close this thread, because you've been most guilty of being off-topic if not more. Instead, if you don't have anything else to add, take your own advice and stop posting in this thread.

[Mageoholic]

So you wrote an essay, cool. If I followed correctly, what you're saying is that RDM's melee damage is going to completely suck against anything above Even Match? And that against Even Match targets (or weaker), Enspell IIs will have an effective accuracy of higher than ~56% even when the accuracy of an Enspell I of the same element has just barely enough accuracy to reach 95%?

I'm flattered that you, of all people, spent so much time typing up such a long-winded assent of everything I've already posted in this thread. Thanks!


I didn't mention melee damage once in terms of the discussion. Everything I wrote was in relation to enspell damage. In terms of RDM's damage, it won't suck, but it won't be optimal. There is a difference, and there is only 1 event in the game that really requires optimal...for now.

Enspell II's have an effective MACC depending on the mobs level, the higher the level the worse they fare, unless you retain your Enhancing gear throughout the conflict.

Funny you say just enough to reach 95%. Ideally you want ACC or MACC capped at 95% so just enough is exactly right. Having 80 more MACC then you need is redundant.

Also I thought you were leaving this thread because the mouth breathers didn't agree that EN2's are better than EN1's (they are not fyi.) You should hurry along and spam Embrava before the nerf hits the live servers, it would be wise to leech your LS for as much gear as you can.



Also,
Hi Carth havent seen you around the internets for some time, hope all is well!.

[Vicious]

The laughable melee in full enhancing gear idea, the incredibly situational high -PDT mobs where you blatantly dismissed Requiescat and nuking, and finally the terrible justification to your argument that was ripped straight out of 2005 to appease your want to make Enspell IIs look good.

-So, if you're fighting a target that is, for whatever reason, taking zero damage from your melee swings, but is still taking damage from your Enspell II, it's laughable to remove attack and double attack gear (ergo, not haste gear) and replace it with Enhancing skill? How much damage is attack and double attack adding when you're hitting for zero? Not sure if serious!

-I never dismissed Requiescat; I simply acknowledge the reality of having 15 points to allocate between 14 different merit WS. You can't seriously expect somebody to 5/5 Requiescat for these, as you yourself put it, "highly situational -PDT mobs" when they might have MNK, THF, DNC, DRK, BST, DRG, SAM and/or COR leveled. As for nuking in those situations, that is also, as they say, situational; your MP may be better spent elsewhere, or casting may be less than feasible due to the longer casting time.

-My terrible argument is ripped from 2005? Last time I checked, RDM got booted from any and all parties in 2005 if they drew their sword past level 20. My argument is encouraging meleeing. Again, not sure if serious?


You have absolutely no reason to be telling moderators to close this thread...

/sigh. Context is hard.

[Mageoholic]

-So, if you're fighting a target that is, for whatever reason, taking zero damage from your melee swings, but is still taking damage from your Enspell II, it's laughable to remove attack and double attack gear (ergo, not haste gear) and replace it with Enhancing skill? How much damage is attack and double attack adding when you're hitting for zero? Not sure if serious!


Yes you swap to an elemental magic set and hit it with T4 nukes....not sure if you're serious.


-I never dismissed Requiescat; I simply acknowledge the reality of having 15 points to allocate between 14 different merit WS. You can't seriously expect somebody to 5/5 Requiescat for these, as you yourself put it, "highly situational -PDT mobs" when they might have MNK, THF, DNC, DRK, BST, DRG, SAM and/or COR leveled. As for nuking in those situations, that is also, as they say, situational; your MP may be better spent elsewhere, or casting may be less than feasible due to the longer casting time.

So now Enspell II's damage outweighs a WS that ignore phsyical defense, and Nukes which also ignore physical defense. Are you for real?

What of the players like me who have DNC, BRD, RDM, PLD, BLM, WHM, SCH leveled....4 of those might see melee combat...but its ok I took the club WS too. Christ almighty.

[Vicious]

If you had ever soloed anything remotely difficult, you would realize that is not always an option!

[Doombringer]

so... you can't nuke it... and it is immune to physical dmg... and THAT is your justification for why enspell 2 doesn't need fixing?

EDIT: and also you can't be dual wielding while you're fighting it...

[Mageoholic]

If you had ever soloed anything remotely difficult, you would realize that is not always an option!

LOL really situational Enspell success, and situational nuking success and situational Req success is now based on situational soloing....rocket science 101, situational shit is situational. LOL

[Vicious]

There are plenty of solos that require /WHM, don't sound so shocked, it makes you look silly.

Yes, Enspell II doesn't need fixing, what's the point? As I've stated and proven, they have their niche. Why take away a spell when they could just as easily give us a third tier that does something different? Seriously, guys, think before typing.

[Mageoholic]

There are plenty of solos that require /WHM, don't sound so shocked, it makes you look silly.

Yes, Enspell II doesn't need fixing, what's the point? As I've stated and proven, they have their niche. Why take away a spell when they could just as easily give us a third tier that does something different? Seriously, guys, think before typing.

/WHM? Why not /SCH /WHM gives you nothing it doesn't. WTF is wrong with you Mrs. My LS is one of the top progressed in NA.

As for EN2's they are garbage. The only use they have is to get Haste Samba. Otherwise they are no different than EN1's.

(and I know I said otherwise earlier, but that was before I read your terrible MACC math and had to punch the numbers myself.)

[Vicious]

Because casting status cures with /SCH requires Addendum: White, which requires 2 JAs and 2 seconds to activate. That 2 seconds can easily get you killed, and lord help you if you get paralyzed and lose any of those JAs to it.

You are such an adorable little tryhard <3

[Mageoholic]

Because casting status cures with /SCH requires Addendum: White, which requires 2 JAs and 2 seconds to activate. That 2 seconds can easily get you killed, and lord help you if you get paralyzed and lose any of those JAs to it.

You are such an adorable little tryhard <3

So activate it before you engage the mob?

[Vicious]

If there's no need to ever cast black magic during the fight, you would have to choose between Auto-Regen, Banish, Flash, Divine Seal or Light Arts, Storms, Conserve MP, Max MP Boost. If I'm meleeing, pretty sure Flash, and therefore WHM wins it by a mile. If I'm not I'm nuking... and considering that status cures are linked to Strategems, and the Arts penalty on opposing magic, I'd still pick WHM.

Tryharder <3

[Mageoholic]

LOL how situational are you going to go to try and save face here?

If you are meleeing /WHM you suck. Period. /DNC beats /WHM for melee, and that is the only time EN2's are better than EN1's. Haste Samba.

As for nuking cross arts...RDM can make the fast cast reduction look like a hummingbird flapping its wings regardless. The 32 MP for the nuke you are going to Cast saved in buffing, debuffing (relevant things), healing, status spells.

If you take WHM you suck and haven't soloed a thing.

/SCH is our best kite solo job
/DNC is our best melee but need support job
/BLU is our best melee but need defense job
/NIN is our best melee but can take a hit/nuke but can't get hit casting job.

Hell /NIN is better than /WHM more often than not

[Vicious]

You truly, honestly can't think of anytime that having instant access to every relevant status cure would be beneficial over having a one-size-fits-all JA on a 15 second timer? This kind of stuff is why you'll always be second-rate. =(

[Mageoholic]

What do you mean? You actually switch arts on SCH....why? The negative effects are negated for RDM. Unless you want to debate a fraction of a second.

You can't be serious can you?

then again you did try to say SCH is better at stunning then a RDM.

[Vicious]

2/10, bad troll is bad =(

[Mageoholic]

2/10, bad troll is bad =(

I would say so, and you looked like an absolute moron to boot when it comes to RDM, and the mechanics of the game. (you still think SCH can out Stun RDM?)

[Demon6324236]

(you still think SCH can out Stun RDM?)SCH actually can stun better than RDM, RDM's best way to stun is via Chainspell, which is limited to 60 seconds of stunning 1 time during an event. SCH however with the correct gear can get Stun down to a small 3~4 second recast during Embrava, which for now means about 4 minutes of very fast stuns with more accuracy than RDM, and another 8 minutes which you can use another 10 very fast stuns, this is thanks to Alacrity, and during Tabula Rasa, Focalization. SCH ends up being better for stuns for this reason, however after the Embrava nerf is done, or any areas in which is has already been implemented, I would say RDM and SCH are about the same, RDM has alot more use than SCH for stun outside of 2hours, but during 2hours SCH will win.

Thats so far as I know at least, if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me.


Yes, Enspell II doesn't need fixing, what's the point? As I've stated and proven, they have their niche. Why take away a spell when they could just as easily give us a third tier that does something different? Seriously, guys, think before typing.Sorry to have been off topic, this is actually on topic though. They can not give us a third tier to a spell which we never got a second tier to. En-IIs are not Enspells to me, show me another tier II spell in the game that removes something from the spell in a way that would make it worse than the tier I in any situation, except by MP cost.

Cures, Curagas, Raises, Holy, Dia, Banish, Diaga, Banishga, Protect, Shell, Slow, Paralyze, Cura, Phalanx, Regen, Protectra, Shellra, Reraise, Fire, Blizzard, Aero, Stone, Thunder, Water, Firaga, Blizzaga, Aeroga, Stonega, Thundaga, Waterga, Flare, Freeze, Tornado, Quake, Burst, Flood, Gravity, Poison, Bio, Drain, Aspir, Sleep, Blind, Warp, and Sleepga.

That is a list of every single spell in the game with at least 2 tiers, that fall into the White or Black magic categories. Not one of those spell types has any downfall or anything lost from the first tier upon upgrading to the second. The one spell type I excluded, is Enspells, and as I stated before, I don't think there is a second tier. Despite what you say, the second tier did lose something, it lost compatibility. With En-Is you can run around with any subjob, any gear, and you will get the full effects from the spells. With En-IIs, if you are dual wielding, or have any double or triple attack, you are not getting extra damage on those other hits. There are more things to it than simply this, but this is a big part, something we lost going from I, to II.

Tell me a spell I forgot, something I missed, where when going from the first tier to the second, we lost something, if you cant, then stop acting like this is ok, realize that the spells should be changed, and fixed. En-IIs should always be more powerful than the originals, that is how a second tier is meant to be, look at the elemental nukes, or the cures, you cant make a Cure I more powerful than a cure II, or a Fire I do more damage than a Fire II, because the II tier is meant to be stronger, and thats how our Enspells should be, our IIs should always be stronger, thats why we learn them at a later level, thats why they cost more MP, thats why they are called II spells.

[Sunrider]

So, arguments for tier 2 are as follows:


Pros

-Superior damage when single-wielding a single hit weapon with a moderate amount of Double Attack

-Allows for application of Enspells in combination with Samba effects

Cons

-Inferior with multi-hit weapons, Dual Wield, larger amounts of multi-hit traits (combinations of Temper, Double/Triple Attack, whether form subjobs or gear)

-Damage formula calculates on strike rather than on cast, demanding perpetual equipment of Enhancing skill (potentially at the cost of Haste or Acc), for maximum potential

-"First hit only" clause reduces potential, should the first hit miss for any reason

-Negligible elemental defense reduction with only a few seconds' duration



... Well, um, at least tier 2s... play well with Sambas? That's something... I guess.

Srsly though, I can respect niche: WAR occupies a niche, BRD occupies a niche, Firaga occupies a niche... but this is just ridiculous. The multi-hit thing, the elemental defense thing, I can just barely forgive those. But there was no call for it to use a damage formula from 2003 that was long since improved; that was a bloody deal-breaker.

Who can really justify a tier 2 spell having even less use and inferior formula to a tier 1?

[Carth]

Also,
Hi Carth havent seen you around the internets for some time, hope all is well!.
That's probably because you don't know my new screenname on Alla. It's HeroMystic.

[Carth]

-So, if you're fighting a target that is, for whatever reason, taking zero damage from your melee swings, but is still taking damage from your Enspell II, it's laughable to remove attack and double attack gear (ergo, not haste gear) and replace it with Enhancing skill? How much damage is attack and double attack adding when you're hitting for zero? Not sure if serious!

How cute. This isn't what you said. You said:


When the target takes little to no physical damage and/or increased magical damage?

Little physical damage is still damage. You are still gaining TP. You can still use Requiescat.

And fun fact, even if the mob was taking 0 damage, you'd still be wrong. Enspell I and /NIN puts out a stronger damage output than the lolceremonialdagger method.


-I never dismissed Requiescat; I simply acknowledge the reality of having 15 points to allocate between 14 different merit WS. You can't seriously expect somebody to 5/5 Requiescat for these, as you yourself put it, "highly situational -PDT mobs" when they might have MNK, THF, DNC, DRK, BST, DRG, SAM and/or COR leveled. As for nuking in those situations, that is also, as they say, situational; your MP may be better spent elsewhere, or casting may be less than feasible due to the longer casting time.

Translation: My argument is failing, and therefore I must place arbitrary constraints to my point in order to make myself look smart.

Complaining that you have a bunch of jobs doesn't mean anything. Merits points are easy to get in this game. Even 1 merit on Requiescat is a large gain to speed up that kill. If you choose to ignore it, that's your choice, but it doesn't change the fact that Requiescat is a powerful boon on a mob like that and you'd be an idiot to ignore that.



-My terrible argument is ripped from 2005? Last time I checked, RDM got booted from any and all parties in 2005 if they drew their sword past level 20. My argument is encouraging meleeing. Again, not sure if serious?


It must be nice using that imagination of yours considering I was a melee RDM in 2005.


This was also the correct way to Ceremonial Dagger things to death before the level cap increase kinda killed that strategy.

If Killing Ifrit wasn't pruned, I'd tell you to go there and do a search on Ceremonial Dagger and get all the posts on how RDM should use Ceremonial Dagger on things so they wouldn't TP feed on mobs they did shit damage on. Same thesis, different situation.

But I'm sure you're gonna put an arbitrary rule to make your argument look better such as "you're gonna need all your MP to survive" or "You should be /WHM".

[Vicious]

-I never said you shouldn't be using Requiescat if you have it; all I've said and continue to say is that in situations where physical damage stats aren't doing anything for you, there's no reason to not swap to Enhancing skill gear that will increase your damage. These situations are not mutually exclusive.

-If you're CDaggering something to death, you are wearing a Genbu's Shield regardless of /NIN, not dual-wielding.

-You're complaining that I'm adding all these caveats to my argument when they were already there from the very beginning. Besides, you make it sound like I'm just inventing this shit... and I assure you, it's all from experience, not thought-experiments.

-...ok, again, you were a melee RDM in 2005, cool. Not sure what that has to do with anything; I'm sure you got plenty of shit for it, whether justified or not. That does not change the fact that RDM melee is generally more acceptable today than it was before, mostly because it's in a much better place now than it was, and the metagame pretty much demands it.

-You profess to be a career RDM, yet have never heard of any solos that would require /WHM? I'm trying really hard to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but this kind of ignorance makes it pretty hard.

[Vicious]

Srsly though, I can respect niche: WAR occupies a niche, BRD occupies a niche, Firaga occupies a niche... but this is just ridiculous. The multi-hit thing, the elemental defense thing, I can just barely forgive those. But there was no call for it to use a damage formula from 2003 that was long since improved; that was a bloody deal-breaker.

Who can really justify a tier 2 spell having even less use and inferior formula to a tier 1?

As I quite clearly showed in an earlier post, you need 1.73 attacks per round for Enspell I damage to match Enspell II damage when single-wielding. The only way this is possible is to use an OA2~4 weapon in Abyssea with the proper atmas; regardless of why one would be meleeing on RDM in Abyssea in the first place, you would be sacrificing much more physical damage by using such a terrible weapon for the sake of your argument, and would do much less damage overall.

Ergo, Enspell II is always superior when single-wielding in any remotely realistic, intelligent scenario. When they give Dual-Wield to RDM natively, you can start bitching how terrible they are; until then, math insists that you just stop.

And for all the complaints about the damage formula... you guys do realize that it's the difference between 26(52) and 30 damage with capped/merited skill, right? I mean, I don't disagree that the whole thing is silly, but it's not like it's 15 or 20 damage per swing.

This whole thing just boils down to a bunch of RDM/NINs who think the answer to all of RDM's woes is to increase their damage potential with a very particular subjob and hope that SE forgets about all the powerful magic they can cast on a moment's notice. You are never going to get what you want, because it would horribly unbalanced, you don't have to be Tanaka to see that; but you do have to be delusional to ignore it.

[tyrantsyn]

/whm for solo?, Enspell 2's are fine as they are? Sch a better stunner?
I see some one has finally found the RDM only confused spell.

[Demon6324236]

Sch a better stunner?As I said at the top of the page, this one is legitimately correct, if you want proof, ask any successful legion group which they take for stuns, a RDM, or a SCH.

[Mageoholic]

-You profess to be a career RDM, yet have never heard of any solos that would require /WHM? I'm trying really hard to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but this kind of ignorance makes it pretty hard.

Name one solo where /WHM trumps /SCH. Just one.

On topic however.

SE should remove the MEVA boost and change it to an Elemental Debuff (Frost Drown Rasp Choke Burn Shock.) Damage doesn't matter, RDM is not asked to come for damage (its not asked for at all but w/e) it is asked to provide utility. Being able to reduce mobs stats directly is a large buff to all the jobs targeting the mob. Instead of providing a silly -10 to MEVA it should be offering a -25 To Stats.

How did I get at the awesome magic 25 number. It takes that many hits to cap your Damage with EN2's so for each consecutive hit you reduce mob stat by 1, until cap where it remains until the ability is recast.

This provides the following.
-STR = A reduction in damage through the mobs fSTR calculation.
-VIT = An increase in damage taken based on players fSTR calculation.
-INT = An increase in Elemental Damage and Black Magic MACC based on DMG and MACC calculations
-MND = An increase to Divine Damage and White Magic MACC based on DMG and MACC calculations
- AGI = An reduction in Evasion, and an increase to Critical hit rate.
- DEX = A reduction in Accuracy and Critical hit rate

Depending on the enspell selected Players will notice more damage/macc and a slew of other side net benefits from reduction to Stats. Making RDM have a buff via debuffing.

All told these would act like the following.

BOOST spells, Attack +, ACC+, MACC+, EVA+, CRIT RATE+, MOB Crit rate -, Defense+.

While they can not all be on at the same time multiple RDM's could provide 1 or more of these buffs. But they also jive nicely with our current line of specific skill debuffs, DIA(ATK+), BIO(DEF+), Gravity(ACC+), Blind(EVA+),

and it supports RDM melee, as enspells need to be poked into mobs.

Utility > Damage for RDM returning to group play.

[Mageoholic]

As I said at the top of the page, this one is legitimately correct, if you want proof, ask any successful legion group which they take for stuns, a RDM, or a SCH.

No you are right, but I didn't want someone with a brain to answer, I wanted Vicious to answer because he/she seemed pretty adamant it was a MACC issue, not an issue with SCH just being able to cast the spell a shit ton more.


Ergo, Enspell II is always superior when single-wielding in any remotely realistic, intelligent scenario. When they give Dual-Wield to RDM natively, you can start bitching how terrible they are; until then, math insists that you just stop.

What math your terrible math that concluded 80 MACC isn't worth 38% Land rate?

The only reason to use EN2 over EN1 is to get Haste Samba, that is it, the rest of the time they are statistically even damage wise, unless on fodder exp mobs. Which means they are shit and need adjusting to be useful.

[Toadie-Odie]

Because casting status cures with /SCH requires Addendum: White, which requires 2 JAs and 2 seconds to activate. That 2 seconds can easily get you killed, and lord help you if you get paralyzed and lose any of those JAs to it.

You are such an adorable little tryhard <3

Cure 1-4 spells do not require Addendum: White. However, Light Arts will optimize those spells by reducing the casting cost and recast by a small amount. You are not required to have Light Arts up or have Addendum: White active to cast cure.

As for enfeebles, subbing /DNC will address most of them with Healing Waltz.

Either way, /WHM is not critical - it is just a player preference.

Edit: Ultimately though, how does this effect Enspells in general? I understand we live in "nano-time" while we play these games where every second counts but are we seriously willing to quibble over two seconds?

[Vicious]

Here you go:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Cogtooth_Skagnogg

Requires you to Erase Bind more than once every 2 minutes, and the 30% casting time penalty to nukes from full-timing Addendum: White will get you killed in short order.

What else can I teach you guys today?

[Toadie-Odie]

Requires you to Erase Bind more than once every 2 minutes, and the 30% casting time penalty to nukes from full-timing Addendum: White will get you killed in short order.

This mob doesn't have knockback so unless you want to kite it why would you care about bind during melee? And if you kite it, you aren't engaged with it anyway...

Edit: Unless you meant the weight effect he puts on you?

Edit2: Even then he doesn't use melee attacks. All his attacks are magic based dmg or enfeebles. So evasion doesn't help you. The only real issue I see is silence and blind. You can't use magic to remove silence from yourself. Eye Drops aren't a bad thing either.

Edit3: corrected some spelling

[Vicious]

If you try to straight tank it, you die; you have to kite it to stand a chance, hence why you need Erase. Understand, it doesn't melee, it just spams TP moves back to back to back. Meleeing was never a stipulation in this whole RDM/WHM solo tangent, I'll remind you!

The only reason meleeing came into is when i stated that, if full-timing Addendum: White in a solo melee situation for the express purpose of access to status cures, I would rather just /WHM for Flash, which is entirely logical for this entirely hypothetical and illogical situation.

[Demon6324236]

What else can I teach you guys today?How that NM is at all relevant and worth the time and effort to go out of the way to kill anyways.
Understand, it doesn't melee
I would rather just /WHM for Flash.Because flash is relevant when kiting something that doesn't melee.
entirely hypothetical and illogical situation.Oh look, its the basis of just about everything you have posted in this thread.

[Vicious]

-It is still somewhat relevant, whether you believe so or not! Regardless, 'relevance' was never a stipulation, so /shrug.

-As I've made abundantly clear, that NM is a real application, whereas the argument involving Flash was purely hypothetical response to a purely hypothetical situation. =/

-That's funny, as I wasn't the one who posited the situation in question! I suppose that's what I get for feeding trolls, though.

-If single-wielding with Enspell II while /WHM or /SCH as the sole support member of my party while lowmanning Salvage, etc is to be considered hypothetical and situational, I give up on the lot of you.

[Demon6324236]

-It is still somewhat relevant, actually!

-As I've made abundantly clear, that NM is a real application, whereas the argument involving Flash was purely hypothetical response to a purely hypothetical situation. =/I disagree on both parts. I looked at the NM to be sure, see nothing of relevance, relating to it or the BCNM related to the item it drops. The only important item of any sort would be the Ring, which has very limited use. As for the other part, if this was completely hypothetical you would not be arguing WHM is a good sub. But ok, people were not specific enough, show a relevant mob in which /SCH would not beat /WHM.

[Vicious]

If you're going to start arguing relevance, then, I posit that all RDM solos at this stage in the game are equally irrelevant, as anything that drops anything of 'relevance' is extraordinarily inefficient to kill without the necessary procs and/or Treasure Hunter (a la Abyssea, Voidwatch, Dynamis, Salvage), downright impossible for RDM to solo in the first place (NNI, Legion), or was already feasible to solo at 75 when yonder Warmachine was, as you say, "relevant" (Limbus, Salvage, Sky, whatever).

Please try ever so harder!

[Demon6324236]

-If single-wielding with Enspell II while /WHM or /SCH as the sole support member of my party while lowmanning Salvage, etc is to be considered hypothetical and situational, I give up on the lot of you.If you are /WHM or /SCH you are not on the front lines, you are a back line job at that time and you are not fighting with the other melee jobs. You give up on us, we don't care, you keep talking about a line of spells we know are worthless, and we keep trying to explain to you what the problem is, which you ignore...

[Vicious]

If you are /WHM or /SCH you are not on the front lines, you are a back line job at that time and you are not fighting with the other melee jobs.

/mind blown

So, it's either frontline /NIN dual-wield I ain't casting shit, or backline I'm using staves and maging it up, eh?

Why are you playing Red Mage????

I tried to make it flash in 3-D, but I couldn't figure out how.

[Demon6324236]

If you're going to start arguing relevance, then, I posit that all RDM solos at this stage in the game are equally irrelevant, as anything that drops anything of 'relevance' is extraordinarily inefficient to kill without the necessary procs and/or Treasure Hunter (a la Abyssea, Voidwatch, Dynamis, Salvage), downright impossible for RDM to solo in the first place (NNI, Legion), or was already feasible to solo at 75 when yonder Warmachine was, as you say, "relevant" (Limbus, Salvage, Sky, whatever).I DD in VW as RDM/NIN as well as many Emp/Relic WAR/SAM/DRK/MNKs do on my server, NNI I have DDed in before and done quite well, Legion I do not do, nor would I do with RDM. Limbus gear is needed for Neo-Limbus gear, and the coins are needed for Neo-Limbus as well, thus, relevant content. Salvage is needed for Alexandrites, new Salvage gear, and some of its gear holds up decently, for instance until this most recent update, Morrigan's feet were the best KoR feet in the game for RDM still. Sky gear can be augmented, Zenith Crown is a very useful Enhancing Magic piece for both RDM and WHM, Zenith Pumps are the best cure feet in the game outside of Iaso if you require cure potency in that slot, and second best for cure cast time.

I need not try harder, I need only think and share my RDM experience, please do tell how that NM you showed is similar to these other events you listed, which are in fact, still useful.

[Vicious]

I DD in VW as RDM/NIN as well as many Emp/Relic WAR/SAM/DRK/MNKs do on my server

If you don't know what's wrong with this statement...


NNI I have DDed in before and done quite well

I got carried away with this one I'll admit, RDM would do okay against the fodder mobs in there; you'd be a lot less useful vs. the floorx20 bosses though. I'd still take virtually anything over a RDM in there.


Limbus gear is needed for Neo-Limbus gear, and the coins are needed for Neo-Limbus as well, thus, relevant content. Salvage is needed for Alexandrites, new Salvage gear, and some of its gear holds up decently, for instance until this most recent update, Morrigan's feet were the best KoR feet in the game for RDM still. Sky gear can be augmented, Zenith Crown is a very useful Enhancing Magic piece for both RDM and WHM, Zenith Pumps are the best cure feet in the game outside of Iaso if you require cure potency in that slot, and second best for cure cast time.

As I said, this was all doable and/or relevant (some things for different reasons, which I don't see mattering for the comparison) at 75, as was the Warmachine, so it does not help your case.

[Demon6324236]

/mind blown

So, it's either frontline /NIN dual-wield I ain't casting shit, or backline I'm using staves and maging it up, eh?

Why are you playing Red Mage????

I tried to make it flash in 3-D, but I couldn't figure out how.Because while I am on the front lines using my dual swords, I am also assisting through the use of magic, such as Cure spells, to heal my party. Low maning Salvage, an example you gave, I do that with RDM/NIN and THF/DNC, RDM for healing, DDing, and tanking everything that hits low numbers, while the THF is for TH, EVA tanking anything that hits hard enough to hurt me for more than 100 through Phalanx, and for the occasional erase from /DNC.

I play RDM because I enjoy the job, I made both Excalibur and Almace as my only Relic and Emp so far, so you can tell just a bit how devoted I am to the job, and how much time I invest in it by compare to others. I understand the job, and I understand that in any case my RDM would be subbing a mage subjob, I am not expected to be, nor should be, on the front lines, in any case where I am fighting on the front lines, I am using next to nothing but cures and possibly a few nukes or enfeebles, depending on the mob and location.

[Vicious]

I don't doubt that you're devoted to RDM for whatever reason, and that's totally cool. It is, however, not a pass for the poor decisions you make regarding the job.

Here's some tips:

If you are dealing comparable damage to the Ragnarok DRKS and Ukon WARs in your VW alliance, the following statements are true:

-You have good gear, are not retarded, and are getting BRD/COR buffs.
-Aforementioned melee are either dead, retarded, or proccing. If it's a pickup alliance, expect a healthy mix of the first two with a smattering of the third if you're lucky.
-You are not fighting anything remotely threatening and/or hard to damage, such as Ig-Alima, Botulus, Kalasutrax, Morta, Bismarck, PWarden.

Your subjob does not dictate your role in the party. If I plan on meleeing in a party with two other 1H DDs, such as a MNK and a THF, we will deal more damage if I /SCH and Accession Enspells onto them than if I used /NIN for DW3. Granted, this assumes I am smart enough to cast an Enspell II, preferably of the element that will assist the one I just Accessioned if possible for our targets. This also gives the party a highly reliable source of status cures when necessary, faster casting times for more melee swings, increased MP sustainability (granted, this rarely is an issue these days, but meh), as well as more situationally useful uses for Accession, such as Barspells and Stoneskin.

[Demon6324236]

If you don't know what's wrong with this statement...That many DDs on my server are terrible or poorly geared? I agree, it would seem that way, at the same time, my RDM does often come out as one of the top 3 DDs, and Dia III helps.
I got carried away with this one I'll admit, RDM would do okay against the fodder mobs in there; you'd be a lot less useful vs. the floorx20 bosses though. I'd still take virtually anything over a RDM in there.Dia III helps with defense, helping kill speed on bosses, is it the most amazing job ever? No, but it does a good job in the event never the less.
As I said, this was all doable and/or relevant (some things for different reasons, which I don't see mattering for the comparison) at 75, as was the Warmachine, so it does not help your case.See, here is the difference, the Warmachine has no relevance now, all of the others, do. Some are required for new events that were made for level 99s even, once they make lv99 versions of those BCNMs which require the gear from the originals, or the originals drop something players use often like AC, Alex, or ABCs, then yes, you will be correct in your comparison.
I don't doubt that you're devoted to RDM for whatever reason, and that's totally cool. It is, however, not a pass for the poor decisions you make regarding the job.

Here's some tips:

If you are dealing comparable damage to the Ragnarok DRKS and Ukon WARs in your VW alliance, the following statements are true:

-You have good gear, are not retarded, and are getting BRD/COR buffs.Yes, I have a near perfect RDM TP build, some of the more high end WS gear for all 3 of my primary WSs, and a 500 Enhancing Magic set which puts my buffs at their max potency. Buffs in VW should be obvious if your in a DD party, if your not in a DD party, its not even really worth drawing your weapons.
-Aforementioned melee are either dead, retarded, or proccing. If it's a pickup alliance, expect a healthy mix of the first two with a smattering of the third if you're lucky.Were they any of the above, it would be fairly pointless to make a statement of it.
-You are not fighting anything remotely threatening and/or hard to damage, such as Ig-Alima, Botulus, Kalasutrax, Morta, Bismarck, PWarden.RDM has to low of accuracy in a good TP build to hit any of those 6 NMs, I am not stupid enough to fight them. The majority of the mobs I DD on RDM against are the commonly shouted for NMs, Kaggen, Akvan, Pil, Qilin, Aello, and Uptala. The only 2 of the 6 you listed I have fought as RDM are Kala and Morta, Morta my accuracy was so terrible I changed to DRK as soon as the fight ended.
Your subjob does not dictate your role in the party. If I plan on meleeing in a party with two other 1H DDs, such as a MNK and a THF, we will deal more damage if I /SCH and Accession Enspells onto them than if I used /NIN for DW3. This also gives the party a highly reliable source of status cures when necessary.Question is more or less in my opinion, how much is your RDM doing with /NIN vs how much extra are your DDs doing with En-Is. I notice my extra damage from being useful is more than their extra 30 per swing tends to be. As for the -na spells, if I am that worried about them I more often than not do not want to be in a close range to mobs which may or may not kill me depending on what event you are suggesting this would take place in. The only event I can think of which is done with only about 3 people is Neo-Salvage, which I have not done, so I can not be sure.

[Vicious]

See, here is the difference, the Warmachine has no relevance now, all of the others, do. Some are required for new events that were made for level 99s even, once they make lv99 versions of those BCNMs which require the gear from the originals, or the originals drop something players use often like AC, Alex, or ABCs, then yes, you will be correct in your comparison.

For the record, Fenian Ring is fun for PLD and kinda essential for the serious endgame WHM.


Question is more or less in my opinion, how much is your RDM doing with /NIN vs how much extra are your DDs doing with En-Is. I notice my extra damage from being useful is more than their extra 30 per swing tends to be. As for the -na spells, if I am that worried about them I more often than not do not want to be in a close range to mobs which may or may not kill me depending on what event you are suggesting this would take place in. The only event I can think of which is done with only about 3 people is Neo-Salvage, which I have not done, so I can not be sure.

I am not going to sit here and give myself a migraine attempting to math it out; I've parsed several times both ways, and /SCH wins handily for total party damage output; THF and MNK hit way more times per round than a RDM could ever hope to, as does NIN. As for the range involved, sure, sometimes you hang back for a NM here and there; the point is that you have that flexibility. Salvage is pretty much the perfect example of this and one of the events where a good jack-of-all-trades RDM really shines; it's absolutely RDM's best event at this point in the game.

[Demon6324236]

I would argue that Meebles is just as good in its lower stages, the tier 5 and final bosses are not meant for RDM to be of any use, then again Gallu are over powered in my opinion anyways, and would not go near them outside of Perfect Defense or Fana drink. And as I said, the ring is actually notable, however I would not say its terribly needed, it helps against undead, 1 category of mob, as for PLD using it, its ok, but who really builds a shield bash set, and would value 50 damage to be worth that effort? Then again, I built a pop for the Stone Mufflers, so I'm not one to talk.

[Vicious]

Meebles, definitely! I've only gone a few times but definitely seems RDM friendly.

Ring does seem like a lot of effort for a small reward but hey, it's an excuse to go dick around in old zones, and I'm always looking for those... in fact, I think I just found my next side project.

[Demon6324236]

Well I hope the thread gets back on track, sorry for all the derailment, I'm going to sleep. As I said in my last on-topic post, I do not think of En-IIs as a second tier to Enspells, as they do not follow the same rules as En-Is do while making them stronger, they are entirely unique spells. I think they should be changed to be the same as En-Is but with added features/upgrades, or they should be changed in name to something else, to display the fact they are not the same thing. The spell that costs more MP often seems to be the lesser of the two in peoples minds, and in any situation you are gearing to do your most damage, its correct, I believe the fact that the second tier is ever weaker, is a flaw, and one which should be corrected soon. We have had this for years, I am not saying to take the advantages away from the En-IIs, but rather give them all of the advantages of the En-Is, so that they can truly be better, and feel like a real second tier.

[Doombringer]

Meleeing was never a stipulation in this whole RDM/WHM solo tangent, I'll remind you!


I feel like there is though because the entire overarching POINT of this discussion is enspell... so if you're not meleeing it, it's not a valid argument.

[Vicious]

I feel like there is though because the entire overarching POINT of this discussion is enspell... so if you're not meleeing it, it's not a valid argument.

Hence, "tangent."

[Motenten]

Now, let's solve for Enspell II magic accuracy to equal Enspell I damage:

Enspell II damage : 14,508 damage

Solve for x = magic accuracy

(305*52x)+[305*26(1-x)] = 12,221
15860x + [7930(1-x)] = 12,221
x= .54

Given that 1/4 resists and lower are going to drive the results slightly lower, I'm comfortable bumping this result up a few notches to 56%

Highest magic accuracy possible on Enspell II for Enspell I to break even = ~56%

This was calculated improperly.



Enspell I damage : 12,534 damage
Enspell I damage at capped magic accuracy (95%) : 12,221 damage
Total Enspell II damage at 100% acc: 15561


To match Enspell I damage, average damage per Enspell II strike would have to be reduced by a scale of (12221/15561) = 78.54%

Average percent return for a given magic hit rate is:

x + (1-x)*x/2 + (1-x)^2/4

which simplifies to:

x + x/2 - x^2/2 + (1 - 2x + x^2)/4
x + x/2 - x^2/2 + 1/4 - x/2 + x^2/4
x + 1/4 - x^2/4
x - x^2/4 + 0.25


So, solve this for 78.54%, and we get 63.7% magic hit rate, or 63 accuracy below cap. With -80 accuracy from gear (or 72 if it's all skill, and thus subject to the 0.9 factor), that's a leeway of up to 17 magic accuracy where Enspell I's are capped, and Enspell II's have equal or lesser total damage.

Magic hit rate trends slightly downwards as magic accuracy drops. Given a constant magic accuracy difference between Enspell I and Enspell II, that means that as Enspell I's accuracy drops below capped, Enspell II's damage is dropping more quickly than Enspell I's, so the difference in accuracy needed for Enspell I to win decreases.

If, for example, Enspell I was at a 60% hit rate, Enspell II would fall behind at anything below a 35% magic hit rate, which is a difference of only -50 magic accuracy.


Rough overall estimate: If Enspell I's accuracy puts you less than 15 above the hit rate cap, or anywhere below the cap, Enspell I damage will beat Enspell II damage (assuming you can get 70-80 m.acc in gear when casting, and that DA rates match those used in the initial calculations).

[Vicious]

Thanks for the more accurate numbers!

[Motenten]

Actually, other parts of the math don't quite add up, either.


26% Haste, 17% DA, 2% TA ; add Temper @ 500 skill for 37% DA, 2% TA, which gives you 1.37 attacks per round.

2% TA and 37% DA gives 1.4026 attacks per round, before accuracy, and 1.33247 hits per round after accounting for accuracy (assuming capped). Not sure how you got 1.37.


-Delay 224 weapon with 40% haste becomes 134, which works out to 2.3 seconds per attack round, which gives you about 305 attack rounds for the duration of either spell.

2.23 seconds per attack round, actually (does not round to 2.3), which bumps the total rounds to 314.

Number of rounds needed to reach cap is not 26, but 26/0.95 = 27.4, since missed swings don't increase the damage value.

That leaves (314-27.4)*0.95 = 272 rounds that landed the first hit.

Enspell I Damage done: 314 * 1.33247 * 30 = 12,552
Enspell II Damage done: 39*26 + 52*272 = 15,158

Ratio: 82.81%

Updated calculations to allow for 1/8 resists. It changes very little at the high end.

If Enspell I has capped (95%) magic hit rate, it beats Enspell II at 67% magic hit rate, for a difference of 56 m.acc.

With a difference of 72 m.acc from gear (using 0.9 scaling), that means Enspell I beats Enspell II on mobs 6 or more levels above the player (barring any other resistances).



Bonus calculation with Chimeric Fleuret:

Hits per round: 2% TA and 41% DA = 1.36971
Total rounds: 321

Full damage rounds for Enspell II: (321-27.4)*0.95 = 279

Enspell I Damage done: 321 * 1.36971 * 37 = 16,268
Enspell II Damage done: 46*26 + 59*279 = 17,657

Ratio: 92.13%

If Enspell I has capped (95%) magic hit rate, it beats Enspell II at 81% magic hit rate, for a difference of 28 m.acc.

Enspell I beats Enspell II for mobs 2 or more levels above the player (assuming they have capped enhancing skill), and is mostly a wash on mobs 1 level above the player.



Note that the difference in damage from Enspell I with Chimeric Fleuret (3621 after adjusting for resists) amounts to about 5.16 DPS. The equivalent could be gained by going from a D51/d218 weapon to a D55/d218 weapon, or a D58/d224 weapon, or a D59/d230 weapon, so any Shikargar beats it. This was mainly to show the impact of +enspell damage gear on the choice of enspell tier.

[Vicious]

Remembered Portus Collar after I had already done all of the calculations and didn't want to be caught leaving out DA gear that would favor Enspell I... seems I missed some changes I should've made. Thanks for the correction and the more accurate model.

One question though; your calculations are assuming that Enspell II accuracy is determined at proc, not at cast. Has this been tested that you're aware of?

[Motenten]

I believe it was, but it's been quite a long time, and our testing today tends to be a lot more rigorous than in years past, so it probably wouldn't hurt to test it again.

[Vicious]

If I have some free time this weekend I'll see what I can do.

One more thing; Magic Accuracy merits. If I'm not mistaken, those should increase Enspell II's lead to targets level 106 and below? I ask because anything higher than that and the question becomes rather moot.

[Llana_Virren]

We just explained this about ~3-6 posts ago.

Other than the Excalibur argument; that's more of a flaw with how additional effects are calculated... not with the spell. Double Attack procs not allowing an Enspell proc is perfectly valid... but I was wondering what other logic was following or if that was about it.

[ManaKing]

Hence, "tangent."



What else can I teach you guys today?

How to stay on topic and be relevant? How about that?

Apparently this topic has taken the time the time to Math out Enspell 1s vs 2s, but no one actually applied that to an actual feedback or any conclusions. Maybe that's the reason why we have the worst Enspells.

[ManaKing]

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO back on topic <.<

What's actually wrong with RDM and why should we care? RDM lacks for both damage and utility. Enspell 2s lack damage and utility at lvl 99. Not a hard parallel.

I'll start with utility because it is rather straight forward.
What does lowering a mobs magic evasion do for a party? There isn't a large presence for either magical damage or enfeebling magic. We can't lower dark magic evasion, which would be useful for dark magic. Enfeebling magic isn't hard for a RDM to land/if we can land it at all. In situations where targets have significant magic evasion, does the debuff from Enspell 2s result in anything worthwhile for any relevantly applicable battle strategy? Generally the sources of magic damage that are significant for this game are already accurate, such as BLM. We are generally the only exception to that rule because our elemental magic skill is somehow lower than a DRK.

::Am I missing anything here, like Wildfire or SMN/BLU magic or some other form of magic that would actually benefit from a lowering magic evasion?::


The damage for Enspell 2s is poorly designed because it omits synergy with anything that could make it good. There are several factors to this, and while it's not really complicated, it does really make you wonder why we get the short end of the stick on every single one of these issues.

The damage starts out low and doesn't factor in enhancing gear.
500+ Enhancing magic does nothing for the 'upgrade' of Enspells. You start hitting lower than Enspell 1s and hit by hit grow to around 52 damage. If you at least started at 30 and went up to 60 (or more) then at least you would be equal with Enspell 1s when you dual wield assuming no additional attacks(which is a poor assumption). If it calculated off of your Enhancing magic and gave you the 60 damage out the gate, it would be better and make sense that it is based off Enhancing magic.

A single hit on your main hand only is poor implementation from a damage aspect.
Most RDM that are attempting to do damage are dual wielding and have Temper. Enspell 2s don't interact with additional attacks. Additional attack are one of the biggest increases to damage in more recent years and Enspell 2s implementation essentially left us out of it. We make up for our lower Sword and Dagger skills with Enspell damage, but we just aren't keeping up. The options for improvements are make Enspells work on all hits, all main hand hits, or the first hit of both hands while dual wielding. But we get none of these. We literally get the worst setup we could have been given with no actual advantages and no good reasoning for why we are given such lacking damage.

The priority of additional effects is not optimal.
Enspells get in the way of us getting nice things. If you are using Enspell 1s, you will never get Haste Samba nor your additional affects from weapons. If you are using Enspell 2s, you will never get Haste Samba or Additional affects from your weapons without dual wield or additional attacks from things like double attack. So if we use the amazing information that we have thus far gleamed from this forum topic, when using Enspell 2s 'appropriately' (aka single wield) we would miss out on additional affects without the assistance of additional attacks. Hardly optimal. I made the mistake of thinking that Enspell 2s had lower priority than Enspell 1s because I was getting additional affect procs from Excalibur on my double and triple attacks. Imagine my disappointment when I figured out that Enspell 2s didn't even have the luxury of playing nice with additional affect from your main hand. I was pretty angry to be honest and also a bit of an asshole on the forums. Enspells have the worst priority possible and it makes me very unhappy.

They don't give additional stat boost, unlike Enlight or Endark.
Enlight is fueled by Divine magic and Endark is fueled by Dark magic. I can, mildly, understand an explanation based on these kind of reasoning. But what I can't understand is why we don't get Accuracy and Attack Bonuses based off our Divine and Dark magic skill. It would give me a reason to finally cap my Divine Magic. We have 300 Divine and Dark Magic a pop. We would get 50 Attack and Accuracy based off Enlight and Endark Calculations for the initial hit. How it would degrade or build if it were implemented is half the reason I wanted to post. So I could get feedback for the idea. We wouldn't even have to get Attack or Accuracy, but those are the current examples and about the only thing I that could make sense otherwise is M.Acc and MAB for RDM. Please comment on this subject if you have any thoughts.

The magic evasion buff on the mob generally doesn't help the party or even the RDM.
So Enaero II does wind damage and lowers magic evasion to ice. So besides 'that's how elemental wheel magics work', how does that make sense? If you are fighting a wind elemental, and you wanted to lower your resist rates with ice magics, you would hit it with wind.....at which it's damage would be subject to heavy resists. That doesn't make any sense at all. Why wouldn't you want to use Enblizzard II in that situation for it to lower Ice m.eva and do (hopefully) un-resisted ice damage on hit? The situations where you are fighting things that don't take a lot of physical damage, but do take reasonable magic damage are generally elemental type mobs and slimes. That's what Enspells should be really good at, but even that they fail at being particularly effective. Enspell 1s are still the better solution for those scenerios because Enspell 2s aren't well thought out.

The building nature of Enspell 2 damage makes lowering the magical evasion of more than one element unattractive.
The subject that links utility and damage woes is changing Enspell 2s to accommodate for lowering more than one element for enfeebles. If you want reduce the resists for both Slow and Paralyze spells you could use Enaero II and Enthunder II before you cast the spells to attempt to maximize their duration/land the spell(lol). If it were ever the case that it made sense to do that, it would once again be not to your advantage from a damage perspective because you would have reset your damage counter for your amazing Enspell 2 damage.

Why can't any of this work right and be good for RDM? It all has to have problems for why we can't just have nice things. There is no advantages to this system. It feels like it was built wrong on purpose.

If I were going to rebuild Enspell 2s and attempt to make them 'fair and balanced' in the current system, it would go something like this:

Enhancing Magic, Divine Magic, and Dark Magic are calculated on cast.
Enspell 2 damage = Enspell 1 damage formula x 2 and is fixed at time of cast.
All main hand attacks are subject to Enspell 2 damage.
Offhand attacks are not subject to Enspell 2 damage.
Enspell 2s grant the RDM Accuracy and Attack = 1/2 of the Endark and Enlight formulas but it does not decay.
Enspell 2s reduce the M.Eva of a target by -10 and increase the damage dealt by 10% to the element of the Enspell 2.
Raise the priority of Additional Affects from Weapons so that they are the first additional affect to go off.

This is obviously better than Current Enspell 1s and offers advantages over Enspell 1s as well. The rational behind most of this is simple. By building a better RDM you get better results out of your Enspells. It gives you a small level of customization with gearing so you can decide what is most important on your gear for magical proficiencies for either enspell damage, accuracy, or attack. The increases would put RDM somewhere close to an A+ rank in either Swords or Daggers. It plays nicely with both additional affects for weapons and sambas and you could even have an Ephemeron in your offhand work while benefiting from Sambas. You would basically optimize RDM for front line fighting and best part is that you would actually get some party utility out of it.

Increasing the damage done by the corresponding element would benefit your party's magical damage output. I would probably pair with a COR and keep up Enfire 2 up all the time for larger Wildfire damage. They would also be less like to be resisted, which would be a plus. At the beginning of the fight, you could transition between Enstone 2 and Enblizzard 2 for Slow and Paralyze if you thought it would make a difference. You would actually do something for party synergy for magic damage by debuffing the target, which would be an appropriate and welcomed change of pace.

Before people tell me how unbalanced this is, just consider that RDM will never have Dual Wield and Berserk at the same time. We will never be a top physical DPS. Our WSs will never be as good as even a BLU with the possible exception being Requiescat(and even that is questionable since last update). How would this level of change actually affect balance at all?

[Metaking]

not to shoot you down and kinda serprized this hasn't come up yet( if it did i probably missed it after being dazed by one of the walls of text) but the main reason se is leery of giving rdm goon enspells comes down to one out dated over priced weapon, the Kclub, they try to excuse drk and pld by making the spells degrade(does not explain ifrits enfire beating all rdm enspells tho).

anyhow atm lets just imagin that weapon doesn't exists how could we make en2 spells better, well mana did point out alot of good ideas, i especially liked the -10 matching Mevasion and matching eledef -10, however i think the using dark and divine skill on enspells probably hard to code and kinda odd think something better like same enhancing magic formula as En1's (set at casting) as well as bonus dmg (to base dmg) based off int vrs int (calculated on hit), so also probably add a modifier based on weapons delay or type.

[sweetidealism]

not to shoot you down and kinda serprized this hasn't come up yet( if it did i probably missed it after being dazed by one of the walls of text) but the main reason se is leery of giving rdm goon enspells comes down to one out dated over priced weapon, the Kclub, they try to excuse drk and pld by making the spells degrade(does not explain ifrits enfire beating all rdm enspells tho).

anyhow atm lets just imagin that weapon doesn't exists how could we make en2 spells better, well mana did point out alot of good ideas, i especially liked the -10 matching Mevasion and matching eledef -10, however i think the using dark and divine skill on enspells probably hard to code and kinda odd think something better like same enhancing magic formula as En1's (set at casting) as well as bonus dmg (to base dmg) based off int vrs int (calculated on hit), so also probably add a modifier based on weapons delay or type.

You know, I actually hadn't considered Kraken club, yet still I feel that this is one of those situations where if you have a prestige weapon, you should be allowed to use it to full effect.

That said, if one weapon really is all that is keeping us from having worthwhile tier II enspells, then I can think of two immediate, if rather shoddy solutions:

1. Remove Red Mage from the list of jobs that can wield Kraken club.
-OR-
2. Write "Nullifies Enspell II" on Kraken club.

I would much rather be removed from Kraken club and instead be able to have tier II enspells worth using with my other nice weapons.

[Motenten]

Alternative: Allow Enspell II's to proc on DA/TA/QA attacks on the main weapon (as suggested by ManaKing), but not proc on OAx attacks.

[sweetidealism]

Alternative: Allow Enspell II's to proc on DA/TA/QA attacks on the main weapon (as suggested by ManaKing), but not proc on OAx attacks.

I like that better! :)

[ManaKing]

Alternative: Allow Enspell II's to proc on DA/TA/QA attacks on the main weapon (as suggested by ManaKing), but not proc on OAx attacks.

Nice response.

[tyrantsyn]

Correct me if I am wrong but Temper as OAX spell. That idea would kind of kill the spell's use.

[Demon6324236]

Temper = Double Attack not OAT so far as I know.

[ManaKing]

The wording on Temper implies that it could be more than Double Attack even though that is all it does. At least currently.

I'm pretty sure that it's testing was concurrent with it being double attack instead of OaT, since you would get different numbers from it being OaT. Specifically that OaT doesn't generally interact with WSs unless it's from AM3 of Mythics on Mythics WSs.

[Mageoholic]

Enspell II's suck because they have no utility. As I said a few pages back EN2's on use is to get haste samba. Otherwise on anything that is not fodder EN1's are going to deal more damage based on MACC. As for altering the way T2's are calculated I say meh.

RDM does not lack damage. We don't need it, we don't need to compete with the dozen or so other damage dealers, most of which do it better than us, with or with out enspells being better.

RDM is not going to be invited for its damage, jobs are invited for utility. BRDs are brough because they increase the value of every member they buff, same with CORs. RDM could function the same way...if we had some sort of utility to provide them...

Maybe like -25 VIT provided by Enthunder 2, which directly buffs every melee players damage via the fSTR function. Debuffing the mob is how RDM should be enhancing the party...with strong self enhancements to help it in this task. Our best spell is Dia III for a reason...the 17% ATK increase it gives everyone. Now imagine if gravity worked similarly for ACC? Minuet and Madrigal...

boy having elemental debuffs on enspells sure would up RDM's stock in utility, not to mention with the changes to DRK announced giving us access to CSS as well. Utility is what we need...otherwise we are just out matched.

[Sunrider]

Utility is nice; getting people to care about utility when zerging might be the easier option... that's the trick.

[ManaKing]

They are increasing magic damage in the future. I'm still a pretty big fan of adding an increase in magic damage taken from the particular Enspell you have up.

Maybe when Defense is more relevant, you will need more magic damage instead of more DDs.

[Yrusama]

I think they should just make the enspells stronger overall. Like mini-nukes on melee hits. But that's the FFV fan in me talking.

Edit: before I get blasted with "they already are mini-nukes on melee hits", if any of you have played FFV you'd know what I meant. They change the weapon's entire element and make it much stronger. This would arguably make RDM overpowered, though, so they could make them cost more MP, or require perpetuation MP like avatars. I've been playing FF Dimensions lately and they gave RDM in that the ability to strike once with an element/status effect for a moderate MP cost. MP cost on each hit would be nice, as long as the hit is worth it. Would be a bit like DRK that way.

[ManaKing]

MP Soul Eater would be welcome, especially if it were applicable to spells as well.

[Demon6324236]

It sounds good but part of the problem with the idea is basically you are talking about making our melee more powerful, but at the same time you are also talking about killing our MP, which basically kills our entire mage half.

[Sunrider]

Yeah, but isn't that why we have Convert, Refresh?

As an ability that might carry a similar timer to Last Resort, it isn't as if it would be up all the time, and RDM might be the one caster that would be uniquely suited to it's use.

[Crimson_Slasher]

They could also break enspells and make them equal to full or half or quarter of our enhancing skill at cast or hit, most rdms sitting at 420 enhancing in melee gear would be landing additional damage 105 at quarter. Even in abyssea 105 a hit is crazy, and outside its even better. And if you wanna keep enspell IIs more useful, make it 3/4ths skill for 315 a hit. Truely broken, but people still wouldnt demand rdms for melee, they just wouldnt totally shun them from it.