The State of Tanking in FFXI

[Carth]

I'm doing TotM at the moment, so I have a lot of time on my hands. After participating in this thread (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=135675527520294680), I feel it's time to lay down the nitty gritty and discuss what exactly is wrong with Paladin and the role of tanking as a whole in this game.

A lot of players feel that SE fixing enmity will solve Paladin's problems with being undesired in the current state of the game. This is 100% false for a number of reasons. One of the most obvious is, if content can be completed without the use of a tank (Zerg strats), then it will be done that way regardless. The other reasons will require some explanation.

In FFXI, we have went through a number of jobs/subjob combinations that went through a phase of tanking.

These were on HNMs:

RDM/NIN (guide (http://belkinator.livejournal.com/829.html))
NIN/DRK (guide (http://hakamaru.livejournal.com/580.html))
DRK/NIN (essentialy the same as NIN/DRK for the most part)

I added on the guides to avoid further exposition.

This was essentially on lesser content such as Nyzul:

WAR/SAM
SAM/WAR
MNK/WAR

The HNM list was essentially nerfed to the ground by SE, especially in RDM/NIN's case where they ripped apart every aspect of RDM/NIN tanking through an update. NIN, while still a viable tank, lost value through the use of excessive AoE and Double/Triple attack. The lesser tanks remain unchanged, and in fact have gotten better with time.

The obvious reason why SE nerfed the HNM job combinations is not only because it seemed like an exploit of the VE system, but also because it overtook PLD's role significantly. This was also the case when NIN was originally the dominant tank during the early years of FFXI when PLD's Sentinel didn't have -PDT(it simply increased defense) and Rampart didn't have the Magic Shield effect, and most of all there wasn't Shield Mastery and Atonement to spam.

Anyway, while SE realized that these HNM jobs were used more than PLD, I don't exactly think they understood why.

-RDM/NIN was a magic tank. It could survive magic AoEs with Shell, -MDT gear, and barspells. It also had a superior amount of MP in comparison to other tank jobs which allowed it to stay in battles for extreme amounts of time.

-NIN/DRK and DRK/NIN simply dealt much more damage than PLD, and neither job had to sacrifice shadows to use it, unlike PLD which was stuck to /NIN, rendering it unable to apply other subjobs to increase it's damage.

In other words, it's all about versatility. While PLD is overall the best at mitigating damage, it's terrible at just about anything else. It can hardly DD, it can hardly heal, and it hardly has any useful utility that helps the party as a whole. This is true even in today's metagame.

We have to keep in mind that damage is currently the #1 way to go against mobs, and it's not just because it overwhelms the hate system. A lot of it also has to deal with AoE spam(which makes a tank useless), hate resets(which makes a tank useless), and most of all time limits. More damage to the mob means less damage to the party overall. More damage to the mob means less time spent killing something. This is why Embrava and Perfect Defense are such gamebreakingly good buffs even though they can only be used in conjuction with SPs.

With the coming of Rune Fencer, SE has shown that they realize this issue as it is, as they have given the job a DD stance along with a tank stance. Whether the DD stance is good enough or not will be unanswered until April when there'll be lvl 99 Rune Fencers to test it, but they continue to either ignore or be woefully optimistic with this problem with Paladin, and I'm left wondering why since they also have to know how dreadfully weak the job is as a whole.

Even with the enmity system, Paladin will need one of two things:

-A damage buff. Say what you will about how tanks should act, but this would be PLD's only saving grace if things remain how they are now. PLD is in sore need of a damage buff anyway since they require the best weapon/shields in the game to be considered.

-A powerful utility ability on the level of Embrava and Perfect Defense. I really dislike this method as it does nothing but give PLD a niche, but SE has shown that they've been willing to do this with SCH, SMN, and in the early years RDM.

Personally, I feel PLD should get a total revamp and be remade from the ground-up, but obviously that's too extreme. Either way, SE should take a hard look at PLD and what it brings to the table, and adjust it accordingly. Just fixing enmity won't solve PLD's problems. Any content that can be done without PLD, will be done without PLD.

[Jaall]

I agree 100%. I love PLD, was my first 75 back in the day and love the mechanics of it... but it's not used for anything! There are maybe 1 or 2 situations where a PLD might be more useful than most jobs but the only 1 that springs to mind immediately is Suzaku and it's chainspell as PLD can take very little damage from it. But PLD as a job is forever waiting on these uncommon events where it's needed, because most tactics these days involve zergs. I think another solution that I for one would welcome in would be to develop some new end game events that need strategy over anything else.

By this it could be an event where the faster you kill it, the worse the drops will be. It could for example be a boss that levels up over time and by getting it to the highest lvl, it'll drop better loot. The only way to survive for this period of time would be to have a super tank - bring in PLD. This would also open the game up to a lot of other jobs that don't get included in todays content due to damage and would bring back strategy to a game that used to have plenty, but has now lost it and is slowly becoming "just another mmo".

There are probably a lot of activities they could create like this idea that would remove a fair amount of biased invites and zerg-only jobs. You can always keep the old events that need zerging (It is fun doing an insane amount of damage over a small amount of time), but at least open the game up a little more and give us back what some people really love about the final fantasy series - strategy.

[Caketime]

Up PLD's Greatsword rating, lower Shield to E, replace Shield Mastery with Attack bonus, call it a day. Seriously, shield tanking is so derp now, why even bother?

[Demon6324236]

Up PLD's Greatsword rating, lower Shield to E, replace Shield Mastery with Attack bonus, call it a day. Seriously, shield tanking is so derp now, why even bother?I don't think the point of the thread was to make PLD into DRK. Rather to make tanking, actually a possibility.

[Kincard]

A bigger problem is monster design, IMO. The idea behind tanks in most games is that you would hold hate as a tank because you take less damage, and thus other people are free to let loose and deal damage. That way things are a lot safer, and the battle flows more smoothly. The problem is that you taking less damage doesn't matter when monsters spam AoE abilities, so even if you are taking way less damage (Which PLDs do, PLDs are actually more hardy than ever), it doesn't matter because your teammates are still vulnerable.

That isn't to say that monsters in other games don't AoE, but the difference is that in other games, the AoE being readied is apparent through monster behavior, whether its a timed ability or an obviously signaled one. Here, monsters just AoE whenever they feel like it.

Thus, battle where enemies do so much damage that you literally only want the PLD only in AoE range would result in the PLD standing there taking hits while every DPS slot would be filled by RNGs, CORs, and BLMs. SE needs to fix this by adding more monsters that signal their attacks either through chat log taunts, monster movements, or HP% triggers. This way SE can make AoEs powerful enough to one-shot non-tank jobs but still allow players to strategize ways around them. It takes a lot more thought and active participation to do that than to just make it so that AoEs barely one-shot DPS jobs with no warning so people just end up throwing DPS jobs at everything.

Let me give a really simplified example. Let's say tank job A has 2000 HP, DPS jobs B have 1500 HP.

Currently their design is that at any given moment, monsters will just randomly do a 1400 damage move. (They have monsters that can one-shot basically everyone in range too, but these are dealt with by stunlocking, so obviously we're talking about monsters that can't be stunned) Because DPS jobs have no warning to get out of the way, the tank's main function ends up serving no purpose because everyone ends up taking damage anyway.

I propose that they instead think of more monsters that deal 1800 damage AoEs, but with obvious signals they're going to use them. That way, DPS jobs that pay attention know to run away, and the tank can take the full damage without dying, everyone runs back in, tank actually has a purpose. An example of a signal would be paired WSs. They could, for example, make a Harpeia monster that always follows up Rending Talons with Wings of Agony.

tl;dr it's not a problem to have a job that focuses on tanking and can do jack shit for damage, the problem is that none of the monsters they design actually call for such a job to actually be present.

[Caketime]

I don't think the point of the thread was to make PLD into DRK. Rather to make tanking, actually a possibility.

I agree with the thread's point, but the devs have shown us consistently that they don't give a crap about our suggestions and won't do anything to address the viability of tanking. As OP's pointed out already it's mostly due to mob design, with so much AoE skills the sword and board is rendered useless. Maybe I should stop being such a Negative Nancy, but PLD has been languishing for almost as long as RDM.

[Edyth]

Sentinels in FFXIII are incredibly sturdy tanks with some abilities that I think should make their FFXI debut.

Challenge: In FFXIII, this is an upgraded Provoke. In FFXI, Challenge would essentially be Paladin's version of the Warrior's Provoke. Challenge should put the user at the absolute top of the hate list and substantially reduce enmity for other players on the monster's hate list. It should also cause the user's enmity to decay at a slower rate.

Fringeward: In FFXIII, this trait reduces AoE damage dealt to other party members when the Sentinel is the primary target of the attack. It should have the same function in FFXI, although I'd prefer it to be a job ability rather than a trait in exchange for higher potency. Or, if you really don't mind PLD being useful, you could make it a potent job trait, to the point that simply having a Paladin in the party is a boon because it reduces the ridiculousness of NM's AoE attacks. Fringeward could even be PLD's selling point; the ability that defines the job. Paladin protects others by reducing damage taken by the party, like Sentinel in FFXIII.

Or you could go the classic FF route, where Paladins/Knights are the strongest (or close to it) simply because of swords' significance in our culture. Give Paladin a job trait that doubles damage dealt with every attack when wielding swords and it will be relevant again, and sadly, not even overpowered. And honestly, swords are among the most useful melee weapons. Scythes, greatswords, and greataxes all have major issues with simply wielding the weapon. The katana used by ninja in videogames (the ones wielded with the blades backwards or upside-down) are fictional and impractical. Spears have too much recoil on impact and are ineffective in close combat. Great katana (decorative katana in real life) have the same recoil issue on impact, as well as issues with durability due to thinness and length. Small- to medium-length swords and knives are where it's at in real life for melee weapons.

[Keyln]

I have three suggestions to improve general tanking in FFXI.

1) Heavily modify the enmity system - I say heavily modify as opposed to completely ditch because enmity or hate is a very common staple in just about every MMO. However, where FFXI splits off is that hate is a secondary issue in most other MMOs, and in FFXI, it's why most tanks have issues. In most other MMO's, the sign of a good tank isn't if the tank managed to keep the enemy from munching on the other players, but if the tank minimized the damage he took while tanking.

For this reason, I'd suggest giving PLDs (and other tanks) an "Enmity bonus" trait. This trait raises the enmity cap for the job, and as a result, makes it more likely for the tank to never lose hate, even if the other DD jobs are going full on damage.

2) Modify the defense value contribution - While I won't go into the whole damage formula, but I do think that SE should take a second look at the contribution defense makes in the damage formula. In short, jobs that can have a high defense should barely take any damage from an enemy attack as opposed to jobs with a low defense should die (or almost die) from the same attack.

3) Have better fight mechanics - It's understandable why the enmity system in the game was designed as such. If a monster had no AoE to speak of, a straight sword 'n board would be boring, and not very dangerous for the rest of the party. One of the ways to make the fights dangerous is to introduce AoE attacks that wipe entire parties.

However, in other MMO's, they get around this by having fight mechanics which people need to pay attention to, or they die. Some of the varieties include stunning certain moves, killing things in a certain order, standing and moving away from certain spot because a move will hit there, and other things.

While I do realize that there are limitations on the engine that SE is using for FFXI, I'd be willing to bet that there can be innovative and interesting fights that can get away from the old "AoE" mechanic.

[Alhanelem]

I don't need 20 paragraphs to tell you what's wrong with tanking in this game.

Two Words; Enmity Cap.

[Demon6324236]

I don't need 20 paragraphs to tell you what's wrong with tanking in this game.

Two Words; Enmity Cap.Two more for you, AoE spam. Simply change the enmity cap, tell me how that will change tanking against most current endgame mobs. I would love to know how a stable tank would help against the army of recently released mobs that AoE to no end, so please inform us. Sorry to inform you, however the enmity cap is not the only problem, or even the biggest in my opinion, because even if they fix it, it will not change most current mobs you would even want a real tank to handle.

[Mayoyama]

Sentinels in FFXIII are incredibly sturdy tanks with some abilities that I think should make their FFXI debut.

Challenge: In FFXIII, this is an upgraded Provoke. In FFXI, Challenge would essentially be Paladin's version of the Warrior's Provoke. Challenge should put the user at the absolute top of the hate list and substantially reduce enmity for other players on the monster's hate list. It should also cause the user's enmity to decay at a slower rate.

Fringeward: In FFXIII, this trait reduces AoE damage dealt to other party members when the Sentinel is the primary target of the attack. It should have the same function in FFXI, although I'd prefer it to be a job ability rather than a trait in exchange for higher potency. Or, if you really don't mind PLD being useful, you could make it a potent job trait, to the point that simply having a Paladin in the party is a boon because it reduces the ridiculousness of NM's AoE attacks. Fringeward could even be PLD's selling point; the ability that defines the job. Paladin protects others by reducing damage taken by the party, like Sentinel in FFXIII.


Abilities/traits like these 2 would really fit in with the way PLD works in this game (and while it wouldnt come close to fixing the current tanking situation, it would certainly help)

[Toadie-Odie]

Currently their design is that at any given moment, monsters will just randomly do a 1400 damage move. (They have monsters that can one-shot basically everyone in range too, but these are dealt with by stunlocking, so obviously we're talking about monsters that can't be stunned) Because DPS jobs have no warning to get out of the way, the tank's main function ends up serving no purpose because everyone ends up taking damage anyway.

I propose that they instead think of more monsters that deal 1800 damage AoEs, but with obvious signals they're going to use them. That way, DPS jobs that pay attention know to run away, and the tank can take the full damage without dying, everyone runs back in, tank actually has a purpose. An example of a signal would be paired WSs. They could, for example, make a Harpeia monster that always follows up Rending Talons with Wings of Agony.

tl;dr it's not a problem to have a job that focuses on tanking and can do jack shit for damage, the problem is that none of the monsters they design actually call for such a job to actually be present.

I couldn't agree more on this.


Sentinels in FFXIII are incredibly sturdy tanks with some abilities that I think should make their FFXI debut.

Challenge: In FFXIII, this is an upgraded Provoke. In FFXI, Challenge would essentially be Paladin's version of the Warrior's Provoke. Challenge should put the user at the absolute top of the hate list and substantially reduce enmity for other players on the monster's hate list. It should also cause the user's enmity to decay at a slower rate.

Fringeward: In FFXIII, this trait reduces AoE damage dealt to other party members when the Sentinel is the primary target of the attack. It should have the same function in FFXI, although I'd prefer it to be a job ability rather than a trait in exchange for higher potency. Or, if you really don't mind PLD being useful, you could make it a potent job trait, to the point that simply having a Paladin in the party is a boon because it reduces the ridiculousness of NM's AoE attacks. Fringeward could even be PLD's selling point; the ability that defines the job. Paladin protects others by reducing damage taken by the party, like Sentinel in FFXIII.

Or you could go the classic FF route, where Paladins/Knights are the strongest (or close to it) simply because of swords' significance in our culture. Give Paladin a job trait that doubles damage dealt with every attack when wielding swords and it will be relevant again, and sadly, not even overpowered.

I also think giving PLD more tools to work with in addition to changing end-game enemy behavior would be a step in the right direction.

[Carth]

I don't need 20 paragraphs to tell you what's wrong with tanking in this game.

Two Words; Enmity Cap.

The Enmity cap while an issue is actually small compared to how enmity is actually generated. As said before, damage is the #1 method to gaining hate on a mob because everything else pales in comparison. Job Abilities are generally VE, which decays over time. Cures and Flash are CE which is only aided by the use of Sentinel and Enmity gear.

Just simply raising the cap from 20,000 to 200,000 will do nothing. In fact, with how Enmity generation works it'd just make PLD more obsolete, because DDs will reach the cap faster than PLD, and it'll take even longer for PLD to catch up.

[Keyln]

The Enmity cap while an issue is actually small compared to how enmity is actually generated. As said before, damage is the #1 method to gaining hate on a mob because everything else pales in comparison. Job Abilities are generally VE, which decays over time. Cures and Flash are CE which is only aided by the use of Sentinel and Enmity gear.

Just simply raising the cap from 20,000 to 200,000 will do nothing. In fact, with how Enmity generation works it'd just make PLD more obsolete, because DDs will reach the cap faster than PLD, and it'll take even longer for PLD to catch up.

The question here, though, is what if PLD had a trait that effectively increased the enmity cap while the other jobs stayed at the old enmity cap.

This is one of the tricks that other MMO's use to help certain jobs tank.

[Alhanelem]

Two more for you, AoE spam. Simply change the enmity cap, tell me how that will change tanking against most current endgame mobs. I would love to know how a stable tank would help against the army of recently released mobs that AoE to no end, so please inform us. Sorry to inform you, however the enmity cap is not the only problem, or even the biggest in my opinion, because even if they fix it, it will not change most current mobs you would even want a real tank to handle.
No, the biggest problem is our primary dedicated tank class can't actually tank because basically every other job can cap enmity in seconds making it impossible for him to get hate. Enmity is the biggest problem facing *tanking*. AoE spam is a problem for everybody, not just tanks.

[Carth]

The question here, though, is what if PLD had a trait that effectively increased the enmity cap while the other jobs stayed at the old enmity cap.

This is one of the tricks that other MMO's use to help certain jobs tank.

This was actually talked about in the thread I referenced in the OP, and I'm inclined to agree with the consensus.

A trait that raises the enmity cap for PLD would be very useful, but it's would actually switch our issue to the opposite side, where it'd be too easy for PLD to tank, and it would nullify NIN, WAR, THF, etc. Personally, I'm not against the idea but there are more jobs besides PLD that can tank, even if just for short amounts of time.

[Teraniku]

I don't need 20 paragraphs to tell you what's wrong with tanking in this game.

Two Words; Enmity Cap.

Enmity cap doesn't solve anything. You're just delaying the same problem we already have, and would make it worse actually, because the DD's will hit the new cap 1st before the tank and you're right back in the same boat we started with.

[Demon6324236]

Really the 3 problems with enmity.

A: Enmity Cap.
B: Ways enmity is gained and maintained.
C: AoE Spams.

With the cap, it is impossible for a tank to hold a mob for long periods of time because hate will eventually be capped on all players, making it very chaotic such as now. With damage contributing as much as it does now to enmity gain, while abilities such as Provoke and Flash are no where near, it makes it impossible for a tank such as PLD to keep up, let alone surpass the other jobs. AoE spams make it so that even if someone is tank, everyone is hit anyways, making a tank a fairly pointless role anyways, as the tank is meant to keep damage away from others, and AoEs completely bypass that.

Fairly simplistic way to see it, however imo its accurate. With those 3 things changed a tank could keep hate and damage directed at them, till then, we have DDs tank because AoEs will hit them either way, DDs can build hate much faster, and they can hit the cap in less than 30 seconds.

[ManaKing]

Re-Vamping Cover into a trait that allows PLDs to step in front of DDs and mitigate the damage of everyone behind them would be appreciated. Is similar to what has been suggested. I don't think PLDs should have to worry about JAs for protecting others. It is too clunky and DDs are generally too selfish to make it so a PLD can function properly. Instead make it about people being smart enough to be organized so that PLDs can protect them.

[Alhanelem]

The Enmity cap while an issue is actually small compared to how enmity is actually generated. As said before, damage is the #1 method to gaining hate on a mob because everything else pales in comparison. Job Abilities are generally VE, which decays over time. Cures and Flash are CE which is only aided by the use of Sentinel and Enmity gear.

Just simply raising the cap from 20,000 to 200,000 will do nothing. In fact, with how Enmity generation works it'd just make PLD more obsolete, because DDs will reach the cap faster than PLD, and it'll take even longer for PLD to catch up.

Enmity past this cap could decay more quickly so it would be hard to keep it above the cap 100% of the time- but it would be enough so that you can at least pull hate off someone who's maxed out.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

The question here, though, is what if PLD had a trait that effectively increased the enmity cap while the other jobs stayed at the old enmity cap.

This is one of the tricks that other MMO's use to help certain jobs tank.

But job dynamics in FFXI are much more fluid here than in other MMO's. We can change jobs, after all.

Besides, you may not like it when S-E tries to pick and choose which jobs are "tanks" and which aren't. How long was it before they pretty much admitted that NIN was a tank and WAR was not?

[Chocobits]

Discussed to death. Didn't read thread. Tanking in the traditional sense as in absorbing or mitigating damage while holding hate doesn't exist any more. If you want to bring back tanking in a way that will actually work, just do the following:

Have every melee equip a Ceremonial Dagger. That D rating will push DD down to the point that PLD can meat tank in a meaningful way.

The only reason tanking EVER worked or was sought after was because of lengthy battles that took forever for melee to cap enmity. If you want tanking back, you've gotta bring back the half hour fights. That is all.

PS: I'm not sure even with a Ceremonial Dagger, a WAR wouldn't pull hate in Abyssea. They'd still see 2k Evis. right? Just saying.

And PSS: What are we tanking? 5-7 second long exp mobs? 1 minute long Voidwatch? 2 minute long Abyssea zone bosses? 2-3 minute Legion mobs? 2-3 minute Provenance? Just curious what's left to tank that needs tanking vs throwing moar sharp edges at it?

[Damane]

Pld is actually pritty powerfull and fine, it is indeed really the enmity system that needs reworking and not PLD that needs a buff (the job is powerfull and with relic/empy shield can barely be killed). Giving PLD some form of immense attack power would push the job beyond OP limits.

Even if you had unnerfed RDM/NIN or viable NIN/DRK tanking in todays time, they wouldnt hold a candle because the enmity system is just that bad, every DD can cap enmity pretty fast, hell even plds can cap enmity pritty fast if they go all out.

[Carth]

Discussed to death. Didn't read thread. Tanking in the traditional sense as in absorbing or mitigating damage while holding hate doesn't exist any more. If you want to bring back tanking in a way that will actually work, just do the following:

Have every melee equip a Ceremonial Dagger. That D rating will push DD down to the point that PLD can meat tank in a meaningful way.

The only reason tanking EVER worked or was sought after was because of lengthy battles that took forever for melee to cap enmity. If you want tanking back, you've gotta bring back the half hour fights. That is all.

PS: I'm not sure even with a Ceremonial Dagger, a WAR wouldn't pull hate in Abyssea. They'd still see 2k Evis. right? Just saying.

And PSS: What are we tanking? 5-7 second long exp mobs? 1 minute long Voidwatch? 2 minute long Abyssea zone bosses? 2-3 minute Legion mobs? 2-3 minute Provenance? Just curious what's left to tank that needs tanking vs throwing moar sharp edges at it?

Fortunately you've stated the same reason why I said PLD tanks won't work even with fixed enmity. The only problem with your post is even back then, PLD wasn't "desired". PLD as a whole acted as a safety net for alliances that didn't have DDs strong enough to zerg down NMs. If they could, there was no need to a PLD whatsoever.

[Keyln]

This was actually talked about in the thread I referenced in the OP, and I'm inclined to agree with the consensus.

A trait that raises the enmity cap for PLD would be very useful, but it's would actually switch our issue to the opposite side, where it'd be too easy for PLD to tank, and it would nullify NIN, WAR, THF, etc. Personally, I'm not against the idea but there are more jobs besides PLD that can tank, even if just for short amounts of time.

It depends on how it's implemented really. Just like there are multiple tiers of Defense Bonus, Attack Bonus, Accuracy Bonus, etc., Enmity Bonus could have tiers that raises the enmity cap above normal. Jobs that are designed around tanking can have higher tiers while other jobs could have lower tiers, or will have to sub in a tank job to get to the higher tiers. The devil's in the details, I'll admit, but it can be done right.

The whole purpose, though, is to make getting and keeping enmity easy, and allow tanks to focus on the one thing that matters, damage mitigation.

[Ryce]

A lot of the replies on this thread ignore OP's entire point. The problem is not that PLD can't keep hate. The problem is that it doesn't matter who has hate (among frontline jobs, of course). The tough mobs in the game AoE like all hell and hit every melee regardless of who has it's attention. Having a PLD doesn't help the party stay alive... it slows down the killing process.

I love my PLD and wish it was more widely accepted (I don't have all the Relic/Empy toys). Adjusting the enmity cap for PLD is a good place to start (if for no other reason - make the tank appear to be tanking). What we really need, however, are mobs that readily wipe unprotected melees, and PLDs who can effectively protect them.

I like the idea of a -PDT sphere-effect. I also think Cover should be a job trait (with maybe a 90% activation rate).

[saevel]

It depends on how it's implemented really. Just like there are multiple tiers of Defense Bonus, Attack Bonus, Accuracy Bonus, etc., Enmity Bonus could have tiers that raises the enmity cap above normal. Jobs that are designed around tanking can have higher tiers while other jobs could have lower tiers, or will have to sub in a tank job to get to the higher tiers. The devil's in the details, I'll admit, but it can be done right.

The whole purpose, though, is to make getting and keeping enmity easy, and allow tanks to focus on the one thing that matters, damage mitigation.

Wouldn't matter how much, as long as the PLD can maintain 1TE over anyone else, tanking becomes stupid easy. Monsters AI targeting works very simply

Target highest person on list
If multiple, hit the one with the most recent action.

Thus if anyone could obtain 1TE over the cap of everyone else, they effectively become super tanks and can hold hate from the DDs riding T.Rex's firing Laser Beams. If the DD's can easily maintain hate cap then they will always be hit as they hit the monster several times faster then the PLD due to buffs and offensively orientated gear choices.

This is actually why PDT/MDT sets have now become mandatory for any serious DD. Not being smashed in under 10s is now an expected part of the role.

[Limecat]

Guys, I've got the ticket. Give PLD a new ability that turns them into a meat shield for someone else. Not like Cover, but rather they shrink down(or stay the same size if Taru, I guess), and then start slowly floating in the air around the target player in a ring while tumbling. Whenever that player would take any damage, the PLD instantly appears in front and takes the hit instead. The PLD can't take actions or be healed in this mode. After their HP is gone or the ability times out, they reappear as normal with low health.

[Caketime]

An orbital wall of meat? Interesting.

[Alhanelem]

The only reason tanking EVER worked or was sought after was because of lengthy battles that took forever for melee to cap enmity. If you want tanking back, you've gotta bring back the half hour fights. That is all.Wrong. You don't need eternally long fights to have tanks. You need to have tanking be technically possible. PLD can't tank because it does less damage and can not generate more enmity than anyone else ever, due to the low enmity cap that anyone can hit with no effort (sh*t, even my summoner can probably do it with shattersoul), Of course, as has already been established, the enmity cap isn't the only problem PLD has. But the fact that the game is still using limits and caps established at 75 for level 99 is a symbol of lack of foresight/planning by the developers.

[Zagen]

I don't need 20 paragraphs to tell you what's wrong with tanking in this game.

Two Words; Enmity Cap.

Two Words: No Clue.

How fast a job gets to the cap means nothing, how high the cap actually is for any job also means nothing when you consider the fact due to current game mechanics there is no reason to have a dedicated tank. That means stupid 1 shot moves, buffs/items that make any job near invincible or just about as likely to survive X hit/ability as a PLD, etc.

If a monster did 2k damage to all jobs not deemed a tank type and only 500 to the tank type, and Fanatic's, Fool's, and PD were removed then you start to have a reason for a dedicated tank.

[Rustic]

There's a lot that can be done. Give HNM's a "focus" that's generated when someone aggros them. Everyone else in a wide area loses enmity at a greatly reduced rate, meaning it's darn tough to get the HNM unstuck from the target in question. Occasional blasts aimed randomly at other targets on the hate list that aren't #1 is A-OK, especially if the focus is the only one who can interrupt them. In fact, that'd be rather awesome. Focus HNM's will also occasionally attempt to refocus on someone on their hate list- again, interruptable by the focused player.

"*yawn* <targetpc>, you are no longer worthy of my attention. <newtargetpc>, prepare to die!"

(Tank interrupts or in three seconds, new target becomes focus. If interrupted: )

"<oldtargetpc>, you dare! I will double your suffering!"

(Tank keeps focus.)

AoE's that cause worse effects if more targets are in the radius- whether it's damage or other nasty statuses. Reverse 1000 Needles style. Can be targeted on the user or as a ranged AoE. I'm sorry, were you melee zerging? No. Were you riding the enmity cap spamming ranged firepower? Not good either. AoE's that did more damage to everything AROUND the target would be interesting as well, or dealt significantly reduced damage vs. targets equipped with a shield (the larger the shield, the lower the damage)- thereby meaning that twohanded/dual wielding weapon users would take much more punishment than "sword and board" types.

"Occasionally reflects/deflects". Possibly lower evasion rate/defense, but redirects occasional attacks back at players in range. Yes, that was an awesome 5-hit WS. I'm sorry you just hit the other DD with it. And that was a lovely Detonator the Corsair just hit the healer with. The higher the enmity generated by the attack over the enmity cap, the more likely it is to proc a reflect/deflect. Odds increase with enmity levels that the attack is redirected to that target, which would work well with "focus" HNMs (see above). The higher total enmity the HNM has on it's hate list, the more often attacks are bounced. Tends to prefer tank as result. HNM replaces normal attack with reflected/deflected attack at target and briefly halts it's normal attacks to do so. May bypass shadows in process/consume multiple shadows to stop. Cannot reflect/deflect closed skillchain or magic bursted damage.

[Toadie-Odie]

There's a lot that can be done. Give HNM's a "focus" that's generated when someone aggros them. Everyone else in a wide area loses enmity at a greatly reduced rate, meaning it's darn tough to get the HNM unstuck from the target in question. Occasional blasts aimed randomly at other targets on the hate list that aren't #1 is A-OK, especially if the focus is the only one who can interrupt them. In fact, that'd be rather awesome. Focus HNM's will also occasionally attempt to refocus on someone on their hate list- again, interruptable by the focused player.

"*yawn* <targetpc>, you are no longer worthy of my attention. <newtargetpc>, prepare to die!"

(Tank interrupts or in three seconds, new target becomes focus. If interrupted: )

"<oldtargetpc>, you dare! I will double your suffering!"

(Tank keeps focus.)

AoE's that cause worse effects if more targets are in the radius- whether it's damage or other nasty statuses. Reverse 1000 Needles style. Can be targeted on the user or as a ranged AoE. I'm sorry, were you melee zerging? No. Were you riding the enmity cap spamming ranged firepower? Not good either. AoE's that did more damage to everything AROUND the target would be interesting as well, or dealt significantly reduced damage vs. targets equipped with a shield (the larger the shield, the lower the damage)- thereby meaning that twohanded/dual wielding weapon users would take much more punishment than "sword and board" types.

"Occasionally reflects/deflects". Possibly lower evasion rate/defense, but redirects occasional attacks back at players in range. Yes, that was an awesome 5-hit WS. I'm sorry you just hit the other DD with it. And that was a lovely Detonator the Corsair just hit the healer with. The higher the enmity generated by the attack over the enmity cap, the more likely it is to proc a reflect/deflect. Odds increase with enmity levels that the attack is redirected to that target, which would work well with "focus" HNMs (see above). The higher total enmity the HNM has on it's hate list, the more often attacks are bounced. Tends to prefer tank as result. HNM replaces normal attack with reflected/deflected attack at target and briefly halts it's normal attacks to do so. May bypass shadows in process/consume multiple shadows to stop. Cannot reflect/deflect closed skillchain or magic bursted damage.

You know... on one hand a part of me says that would be a pissy thing to do - especially the reflected/deflected part - but on the other hand, that kind of thing also sounds like a very interesting and dynamic sort of fight. If they used that we would have to be at the top of our game and really pay attention to what the enemy is doing and adapt accordingly. I think I could live with that.

Edit: somehow I quoted an extra post I didn't intend to that had nothing to do with my post.

[Rustic]

You know... on one hand a part of me says that would be a pissy thing to do - especially the reflected/deflected part - but on the other hand, that kind of thing also sounds like a very interesting and dynamic sort of fight. If they used that we would have to be at the top of our game and really pay attention to what the enemy is doing and adapt accordingly. I think I could live with that.


And that's the point. Enmity matters and it's not a spamfest of aggro-generating hellfire on the target from all and sundry, since said target is just firing off omnidirectional attacks like some sort of Touhou battle at this point. The party who goes berserk on their target invites fratricidal fire, the ones that don't make it more likely the mob directs any pain it can redirect towards the target most likely to tolerate it- the tank.

Special attacks that having a shield benefits more greatly gives a drawback to 2H/dual wielders to take heed of and increases the survival rate (and thereby increases the fight time a bit by reducing melee DPS), along with giving a good reason for other groups NOT to outhate the tank, lest said attacks be directed at vulnerable and oft-un-shield-using mages. (On the other hand, hey...WHM's and RDM's often can, another good for them. Yay!).

Take a special AoE/cone attack that deals, oh, 16% less damage for each shield size in hand- so a size 1 buckler is -16%, while a size 5 like an Aegis is soaking up 80%. Shields already reduce damage as a function of size, so nothing new here- but if it's spammed or used rapidly and often by the mob, it can make it a "if you're in the damage radius, use a shield or get shredded", while shield users can function effectively in the resulting storm of mob DPS.

"Danmaku" should not be the defining trait of FFXI endgame fighting. We should be paying attention to more than how often we can mash the WS macro or spam our damage-dealing/healing button of choice.

[Aeonk]

Two Words: No Clue.

How fast a job gets to the cap means nothing, how high the cap actually is for any job also means nothing when you consider the fact due to current game mechanics there is no reason to have a dedicated tank. That means stupid 1 shot moves, buffs/items that make any job near invincible or just about as likely to survive X hit/ability as a PLD, etc.

If a monster did 2k damage to all jobs not deemed a tank type and only 500 to the tank type, and Fanatic's, Fool's, and PD were removed then you start to have a reason for a dedicated tank.

All that does is create incentive for bringing a tank. But it doesn't help the tank do their job when a single WS from a DD recaps hate.

A DD should be able to do their job without having to hold back to the point of doing nothing in order to make the current enmity cap work. There should be a VERY tangible difference in enmity between an Ukko's Fury with Defender up, and Mighty Strikes Berserk Bloodrage Sekkanoki Ukko's Fury x2 with Light SC. Right now, there's not.

So yes, an overall raise in the enmity cap is a necessary change. But the incentive needs to be there too. So in essence, you're both right.

[Motenten]

I have a huge amount written up on the details and foundations of tanking, but honestly it gets a bit boring, so will just skip a bit.

In the current state of the game, damage mitigation is reasonably well balanced. Plds have shields, nins have shadows, thfs have evasion, mnks have counters, and everyone has PDT. Each of those are suited for some types of mobs, but not as much for othes.

As has been pointed out, there are two problems facing tanking right now: the ability to hold the mob's attention, and the pervasiveness of AOE attacks that make the presence of a tank a moot point.

I've played around with lots of different models for hate mechanics, but Rustic has hit on the basis for an idea that could actually work.

First, separate enmity (CE/VE) into tiers. Not certain of the granularity, so let's just say 1000-point tiers. So, everyone from 9001 to 10000 enmity is on the same tier and, assuming the mob is picking a new target, all of them have equal likelihood of being chosen as the next target.

Second, decrease the granularity of target updates. Instead of near-instantaneous changes every time any action is done (for the good ol' spinning mob effect), the mob will only consider changing targets every ~15 seconds. This means, regardless of enmity changes, if you get the mob's attention, you'll have it for the next 15 seconds (for good or ill). After that, the mob checks to see if there's someone else it should be focusing on instead.

Now, together that seems a bit problematic, until you take into account player actions which can change things up. For example, Provoke, in addition to the enmity it provides, instigates an immediate re-evaluation of targets. Puller brings in a mob? Tank vokes, goes up a tier on the enmity list, and forces a new evaluation. Result: mob is now on the tank for the first 15 seconds of the fight, even if the DDs immediately unload with weaponskills. Healer getting too high up on the enmity list and the mob starts heading for her? Provoke can get one of the other players on the same enmity tier a chance of being the target instead.

Various other actions can likewise force a target change. Enmity Douse/Accomplice/Collaborator should do it if used by/on the current target of the mob, the various Bash JAs, etc. Then you could modify various spells like Animus Augeo and Animus Minuo to change how long the mob is targetted on a player. EG: a pld with Augeo might get 20 seconds per evaluation, while a DD with Minuo might get 10 seconds per evaluation. If you want to have fun, add something like dChr/10 as additional +1 second per.

A final change would be the need to adjust how enmity is actually accumulated. I -think- you could get away by simply scaling enmity generated from damage by the fraction of total target HP percentage done, relative to some baseline that goes up over levels. So, a level 75 player fighting a mob with 5000 HP gets a 1:1 scaling; same for a level 99 player vs a mob with, say, 7500 HP. However against a mob with 75,000 HP, each point of damage is only worth 1/10 as much enmity. That should make the JAs with constant enmity values significantly more valuable against high-HP targets.


After that you still need to find some way of better addressing the AOE damage issue. Another idea somewhat similar to Rustic's: use the equivalent of sch's Libra (but for all possible targets, including alliance or multi-alliance) to determine the strength of the AOE attack on any given player.

The tank who does the initial voke obviously starts with 100% hate, and thus will take 100% damage from any given AOE. Meanwhile, the thf that ran into range to try for a TA, but has only poked the mob and is sitting at 3% hate, will hardly take any damage at all since the mob is only barely aware of them and is instead focusing the full strength of their attack on the tank. On the other hand, the DDs that have surpassed the tank in total enmity, even if they aren't the current focus, are now the ones being hit with the full strength of the attack.

[Aeonk]

snip

That's actually a pretty interesting idea, and sounds like it could work pretty well. I'd go for that too.

[Zagen]

All that does is create incentive for bringing a tank. But it doesn't help the tank do their job when a single WS from a DD recaps hate.

A DD should be able to do their job without having to hold back to the point of doing nothing in order to make the current enmity cap work. There should be a VERY tangible difference in enmity between an Ukko's Fury with Defender up, and Mighty Strikes Berserk Bloodrage Sekkanoki Ukko's Fury x2 with Light SC. Right now, there's not.

So yes, an overall raise in the enmity cap is a necessary change. But the incentive needs to be there too. So in essence, you're both right.

Raising the caps doesn't do anything if the DD aren't losing enmity faster than they regain it, currently the only way to do that is get hit with your back turned or not casting.

Making tank jobs take less damage than others and lowering the enmity gain of non-tank jobs or speeding up the enmity loss is a viable option but then it makes tank jobs over powered like SE doesn't want.

[SpankWustler]

A change I'd like to see is just for more jobs to receive more relevant ways of reducing enmity, if changes are ever made that make enmity and tanking really relevant again. Lots of melee have excellent ways to mitigate damage or even turn being a monster's target into a way to deal more damage, but ways to lower enmity are far more rare.

"Sit there, do less or do nothing, think about the poor life choices that led you to play FFXI, double-down on your shame by using this opportunity to browse Redtube," is a very dull and one-note strategy for controlling enmity gain and should be an option of last resort.

Some such changes have even been mentioned by the Development Bros then seemingly passed over, such as Super Jump always erasing Enmity for a bro behind the dragoon or a Ranger accumulating less enmity when shooting from behind a monster. Adding more and more abilities like these would allow players to still be productive while applying strategies to manage enmity.

Also, the same changes that made enmity and tanking relevant again would hopefully make current abilities and spells such as Accomplice or Animus Minuo relevant to people who hit things with things.


Second, decrease the granularity of target updates. Instead of near-instantaneous changes every time any action is done (for the good ol' spinning mob effect), the mob will only consider changing targets every ~15 seconds. This means, regardless of enmity changes, if you get the mob's attention, you'll have it for the next 15 seconds (for good or ill). After that, the mob checks to see if there's someone else it should be focusing on instead.

This would be super-helpful for all the position-based abilities in FFXI that can currently be very grating to use, too.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

"Sit there, do less or do nothing, think about the poor life choices that led you to play FFXI, double-down on your shame by using this opportunity to browse Redtube,"

You do dat, you go to da box (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyazTXDqiZw), ya know, two minutes by yourself and... you feel shame, ya know? And den you get free.

[Keyln]

Wouldn't matter how much, as long as the PLD can maintain 1TE over anyone else, tanking becomes stupid easy. Monsters AI targeting works very simply

Target highest person on list
If multiple, hit the one with the most recent action.

Thus if anyone could obtain 1TE over the cap of everyone else, they effectively become super tanks and can hold hate from the DDs riding T.Rex's firing Laser Beams. If the DD's can easily maintain hate cap then they will always be hit as they hit the monster several times faster then the PLD due to buffs and offensively orientated gear choices.

This is actually why PDT/MDT sets have now become mandatory for any serious DD. Not being smashed in under 10s is now an expected part of the role.

Cute, but that's the thing. In most other MMO's, maintaining hate is a secondary issue to mitigating damage. Once the tank has grabbed hate, maintaining hate is a simple thing. This isn't a sign of a good tank, but a sign of a basic tank that even a stupid tank should be able to manage.

The challenge of tanking should not, and I repeat, should not be about keeping up enmity, but about survival and making sure that he (and his party) survive against the enemy.

[odericko]

Lots of good ideas in this thread, especially Motenten. Hope SE pays attention.

[Motenten]

As I think about it more, I really like the idea I outlined. Some ideas only seem good when you first write them, but this one is growing on me as I figure out more things it could affect.

Suppose we're working with the above enmity system. Pld is given Augeo, and has a massive +Chr build for first voke, ending up with a 25 second evaluation window plus initial hate. This means that for 25 seconds, no one can take hate off the pld (barring hate resets, etc), which is one of the advantages and flaws of raising the enmity cap. 25 seconds would be about the limit, I think, as it shouldn't last long enough to use another Provoke before the window ends.

The problem in raising the enmity cap for (for example) pld is threefold:

First, that it only matters once you've reached the cap; it doesn't help at all before that. It's only useful if we accept a priori that enmity is going to reach the cap in extremely short order, but we'd really prefer something with a bit more flexibility.

Second, that if a pld -does- reach that higher cap, that means they have permanent hate for the rest of the fight (with usual caveats). It removes one of the risks that players need to be wary of, which ends up being a bit unbalanced.

Third, that it doesn't help anyone else -besides- pld, or whoever SE deems worthy of being a tank.


Using the evaluation windows instead, we have an obvious and immediate advantage in the first issue. We also still had the risks involved that the higher enmity cap would bypass in the second issue; it's just that the players have a bit more control over those risks (eg: Augeo/Minuo to help control who can hold hate longer; multiple vokes can be used to get the mob back on the desired target, if several people are at the same enmity tier; etc).

And because it's not tied to any specific job, we don't marginalize other potential tank jobs. Instead, pld just has the potential for certain advantages (eg: high enmity/chr Koenig gear for better window durations, etc).


It also reduces the risk of damage for non-tanks as long as enmity is in the tank's favor, though also increasing the risks involved in having too much hate. Well, not increasing the risk of damage per se, so much as increasing the risk of being caught with your pants down due to getting lazy about defense gear when you're not the main target. That's something I could see as a reasonable risk: pay attention or get hurt.

But the main point is that you don't have to introduce additional JAs or traits to allow a tank to mitigate damage on the party as a whole; the tank just needs to be able to hold a high amount of hate. If he maintains high hate relative to the other players, he focuses single target damage on himself, and reduces AOE damage by virtue of relative enmity differences. It would also obviate/supplant SE's patch to reduce damage on players who aren't the main target of the AOE attack.

It also helps with the imbalanced HP issue. Galka and Elvaan can take on larger risks with their enmity total, while Taru have to be a bit more careful. On the other hand, it's now -possible- for Taru to be more careful, and still survive up in the thick of things. They may have to do less damage than they'd like in order to stay relatively low on the enmity list, but it's better than just being dead.

And as SpankWustler mentioned, the lack of a spinning mob would be a huge boon to positional abilities, as well as defensively against breath/gaze attacks (gotta love seeing a taur hit 3 people in a 180 degree arc with Mortal Ray just because it turns around in the middle of the attack).

I also wonder whether the reduced damage taken would be enough to make pets more generally viable? Jobs that split damage, and thus hate, with their pets would take significantly less damage, and thus be a better option with a weaker backline support (assuming we get more content that's not a fight against the clock, where people can progressively improve and still win).



On reducing enmity.. Let's see, what do we currently have?

Eliminate all enmity:
Drg - Super Jump
Blm - Enmity Douse

Reduce enmity:
Drg - High Jump (subbable)

Transfer enmity:
Thf - Accomplice/Collaborator
Bst - Snarl
Pup - Ventriloquy


I think that's it. Not a lot to work with.

Drg's High Jump/Super Jump would tie in well to the enmity effect on AOE damage, potentially allowing them to go longer in full offensive gear than some other jobs. Thf puts itself at risk, but could aid other jobs in a similar manner, assuming regaining enmity from pure damage doesn't happen too quickly. For other jobs, though, there aren't many options.

Some sort of AOE JA that could do something like reduce the enmity of all players within the area of effect by, say, 10% would be nice, but the mechanics would be tricky since you also have to specify the target mob. Jobs I could see getting it: Pld (only other players, not self; probably should be subbable), Dnc, Thf (next in Collaborator/Accomplice line), or Geomancer (heavy AOE focus).



For anyone reading: How would you break my system? What sorts of exploits can you think of that would allow "cheat mode" for the players? Would you, given this system, seriously consider using a pld (or other) tank, or would you just continue zerging stuff down? What problems within the current enmity system does it fail to address?

As a hopeful suggestion for Camate to send to the devs, I'd like to avoid any really glaring flaws that would get it dismissed out of hand.

[SpankWustler]

For anyone reading: How would you break my system? What sorts of exploits can you think of that would allow "cheat mode" for the players?

Beastmaster would be vastly improved for several reasons, more-so than most pet jobs, which I see as a plus but the Development Bros might not. They tend to fear any change in a Republican-like fashion. Mainly, Snarl would affect two things:

1. The "target change interval" would make it possible for a pet to tank briefly even in a group setting with melee and stuff. Currently, pets lose Enmity very rapidly against anything difficult because they bleed HP while dealing lackluster damage, regardless of how much Enmity a Beastmaster accrued before using Snarl. However, the pet would always have hate for 15 seconds under the new system.

2. Snarl would reduce Area of Effect damage against Beastmasters to almost nothing compared to most melee, since it totally transfers all enmity with a very low recast. The job could take less damage in a normal TP set than some jobs in their -DT% sets.

My counter-point is that Beastmaster is a one-handed melee with no real offensive traits other than "has access to Ruinator", so making the pet far more able to remain a target and the player far more durable are both desirable changes.

Also, the changes would result in pets dying a bit faster, so improved performance would required improving one's Reward set and being prepared to spend a little more on pet food and jugs.

[Damane]

Beastmaster would be vastly improved for several reasons, more-so than most pet jobs, which I see as a plus but the Development Bros might not. They tend to fear any change in a Republican-like fashion. Mainly, Snarl would affect two things:

1. The "target change interval" would make it possible for a pet to tank briefly even in a group setting with melee and stuff. Currently, pets lose Enmity very rapidly against anything difficult because they bleed HP while dealing lackluster damage, regardless of how much Enmity a Beastmaster accrued before using Snarl. However, the pet would always have hate for 15 seconds under the new system.

2. Snarl would reduce Area of Effect damage against Beastmasters to almost nothing compared to most melee, since it totally transfers all enmity with a very low recast. The job could take less damage in a normal TP set than some jobs in their -DT% sets.

My counter-point is that Beastmaster is a one-handed melee with no real offensive traits other than "has access to Ruinator", so making the pet far more able to remain a target and the player far more durable are both desirable changes.

Also, the changes would result in pets dying a bit faster, so improved performance would required improving one's Reward set and being prepared to spend a little more on pet food and jugs.

I dunno, but that sounds less like an exploit then more like a balanced cause. you loose and gain something.

Overall I really like motentens Idea of the enmity system and I would really really appreciate if SE would consider those changes. I would give Motenten 2 thumbs if I could, but 1 had to do it for now due to limits ._.

[Alerith]

I'll tell you what the problem with PLD is.

SE is scared of us. That's right. Petrified.

With our current damage mitigation, shield skills, available equipment and a competent White Mage, we're already nearly invincible. PLD/RDM is nigh immortal. It takes Doom or Death to bring us down most of the time. We're immortal walking walls of impenetrable iron.

Now, take that near impenetrable defense, and give it any sort of reasonable DD capability.

You just broke the game. Shattered it completely. Paladin is now the best job of all time. Why take anything else when you can take a PLD which can now not only survive the worst, but deal out the necessary damage? Hell, bring multiple Paladins now. Sentinel all the TP moves. Rampart all the parties.

Chant Du Cygne Double Light Chain Divine Emblem Holy II Magic Burst all the things.

SE can't risk touching PLD in terms of DD. Chant Du Cygne is about the furthest you can get with boosting PLD damage without completely breaking the job.

[MarkovChain]

RDM/NIN tanking doesn't work on normal HNMs, only works on the stupid one that you didn't melee like Tiamat or Oryou or JoL. The reason is that the enmity generated by a single DD greatly surpasses anything a RDM could produce. So unless you do little melee damage it's crap.

[Damane]

RDM/NIN tanking doesn't work on normal HNMs, only works on the stupid one that you didn't melee like Tiamat or Oryou or JoL. The reason is that the enmity generated by a single DD greatly surpasses anything a RDM could produce. So unless you do little melee damage it's crap.

actually rdm/nin was almost used on everything, seen it at 75 on cerb, khim, nidhogg, basicly on almost everything

[Alhanelem]

On reducing enmity.. Let's see, what do we currently have?SCH merit strategems reduce enmity (SCH only), and Animus Minuo reduces enmity gain on a target.

[Toadie-Odie]

SCH merit strategems reduce enmity (SCH only), and Animus Minuo reduces enmity gain on a target.

We have BRD songs Adventurer's Dirge reduces gain and Foe's Sirvente reduces enmity loss.

Edit: Combine Dirge with Minuo and Sirvente with Augeo, and then have a THF Accomplice the the one with Dirge/Minuo to TA dump that enmity on the one with Sirvente/Augeo and you've got some very nice team synergy going on - especially if the one with Sirvente/Augeo has enmity gain tools of their own.

[Motenten]

SCH merit strategems reduce enmity (SCH only), and Animus Minuo reduces enmity gain on a target.

Not quite. They reduce the rate at which enmity is accumulated. They do not actually reduce the enmity you currently have.

[Aeonk]

actually rdm/nin was almost used on everything, seen it at 75 on cerb, khim, nidhogg, basicly on almost everything

It worked for those fights, but it was far from efficient. a RDM/NIN wasn't going to die to fafnir and could hold hate, but it wasn't going to help kill it faster like Atonement PLD or DRK/NIN or NIN/DRK was.

[Bilonn]

This was actually talked about in the thread I referenced in the OP, and I'm inclined to agree with the consensus.

A trait that raises the enmity cap for PLD would be very useful, but it's would actually switch our issue to the opposite side, where it'd be too easy for PLD to tank, and it would nullify NIN, WAR, THF, etc. Personally, I'm not against the idea but there are more jobs besides PLD that can tank, even if just for short amounts of time.

Not necessarily, if done right.
First: make this an Ability, not a Trait. This keeps it from being permanent-say 1m30 per use, recast at 3m00.
Second: Give only a small increase to the cap. Say the cap is 1000, well, the ability gives you an enmity cap of 1050--just enough to hold more hate than anyone else.
Third: Make it have a hate drain. Enmity lowers at a double rate when enmity is over the standard 1000 cap.

There, I fixed this.

So, with this ability:
1: Use the ability.
2: Use another ability or spell to gain hate to get into the overcap level.
[Paladin now has the mob's sole attention]
3: Continue gaining hate quickly with more abilities. You're not going to keep that extra hate long. If you go too long before provoking, flourishing, subjob hate gain abilitying, flash, etc., or else your hate is going to be down below the normal cap of 1000 in 15-20 seconds, and then someone else is going to be the new target.

Make it give you a little room to work over the cap for a limited time, and make you have to work to keep it there. It doesn't give you 'free' max enmity, it doesn't let you go overcap and stay there. You have to skillfully use the ability and then utilize the benefit it gives you.

[Zagen]

Not necessarily, if done right.
First: make this an Ability, not a Trait. This keeps it from being permanent-say 1m30 per use, recast at 3m00.
Second: Give only a small increase to the cap. Say the cap is 1000, well, the ability gives you an enmity cap of 1050--just enough to hold more hate than anyone else.
Third: Make it have a hate drain. Enmity lowers at a double rate when enmity is over the standard 1000 cap.

There, I fixed this.

So, with this ability:
1: Use the ability.
2: Use another ability or spell to gain hate to get into the overcap level.
[Paladin now has the mob's sole attention]
3: Continue gaining hate quickly with more abilities. You're not going to keep that extra hate long. If you go too long before provoking, flourishing, subjob hate gain abilitying, flash, etc., or else your hate is going to be down below the normal cap of 1000 in 15-20 seconds, and then someone else is going to be the new target.

Make it give you a little room to work over the cap for a limited time, and make you have to work to keep it there. It doesn't give you 'free' max enmity, it doesn't let you go overcap and stay there. You have to skillfully use the ability and then utilize the benefit it gives you.

You're still missing the biggest issue: there is no need for a dedicated tank the way the game currently works.

[Bilonn]

You're still missing the biggest issue: there is no need for a dedicated tank the way the game currently works.
Didn't say it did. I said this would fix the enmity cap fix issue suggested. A trait like that would lock it so PLD would ALWAYS be able to hold more enmity, thus posing a problem. My route fixes this problem. It is only a small part of a bigger needed fix. But for many years, the first thing said is that a PLD can't hold hate away from others. Well, in a case where a PLD holding hate would work (and there are still situations it is useful for someone able to soak up the damage to tank), this would let them do so without breaking the game with a trait.

[Alhanelem]

Not quite. They reduce the rate at which enmity is accumulated. They do not actually reduce the enmity you currently have.
I understand that, and I didn't say they did those things. They need to be used in advance and kept applied. But reducing the rate at which you gain enmity does let you do more enmity-causing actions without maxing out, as long as you aren't already maxed.


A trait like that would lock it so PLD would ALWAYS be able to hold more enmity, thus posing a problem.The trait wouldn't have to be PLD only, it could be given in lesser strength to NIN and RNF. Maybe merited on DNC to synergize with Fan Dance.

[Bilonn]

The trait wouldn't have to be PLD only, it could be given in lesser strength to NIN and RNF. Maybe merited on DNC to synergize with Fan Dance.

That is true, though the more jobs that receive such a trait, the more the issue comes back into play. Hate will be bouncing between too many people. Though this could then be addressed as I did before, but with a couple of changes. One, instead of having 1 ability, have 2--a 'strong' and a 'weak' version of the ability. Two, give these abilities to multiple jobs. Or even make an 'ability' for each job that does the same thing, just with slightly varied strengths or however it is determined to work best through testing. Sort of along the lines of Provoke and Animated Flourish.

[Motenten]

I understand that, and I didn't say they did those things.

It was implied based on what you quoted, which was itself in reply to SpankWustler's comment about lack of ways to actively reduce enmity.

[Yrusama]

XIV suffered with a similar problem a lot. PLD was great at holding hate on one monster and the DD would just have to cope with any AoE, but WAR was able to deal massive amounts of AoE damage itself. This made WAR the ideal tank for most situations, since 1.0's was more of a "group vs. group" combat system.

SE: make PLDs awesome again, or start releasing content where they shine!

[Hazankoh]

Although I agree with Motenten 110% I have my doubts the devs would want to implement something as logical as this, mostly because it's to much work. How bout making all enmity decay at a decent speed and give "tanks" a trait that slows decay. I know it's not as good and I might be missing downfalls, but it'd be a good first step.

[Sarick]

Sentinels in FFXIII are incredibly sturdy tanks with some abilities that I think should make their FFXI debut.

Challenge: In FFXIII, this is an upgraded Provoke. In FFXI, Challenge would essentially be Paladin's version of the Warrior's Provoke. Challenge should put the user at the absolute top of the hate list and substantially reduce enmity for other players on the monster's hate list. It should also cause the user's enmity to decay at a slower rate.


I suggested something like this months ago and called it "Champion" It's better suited for the PLD. The difference is it's not a hate gaining tool but a hate passiveness effect. It reduces the hate of others in the enemy hate pool while maintaining the PLDS.


Fringeward: In FFXIII, this trait reduces AoE damage dealt to other party members when the Sentinel is the primary target of the attack. It should have the same function in FFXI, although I'd prefer it to be a job ability rather than a trait in exchange for higher potency. Or, if you really don't mind PLD being useful, you could make it a potent job trait, to the point that simply having a Paladin in the party is a boon because it reduces the ridiculousness of NM's AoE attacks. Fringeward could even be PLD's selling point; the ability that defines the job. Paladin protects others by reducing damage taken by the party, like Sentinel in FFXIII.

I like this but would also think changes to cover are needed. First reduce the recast of cover to about one minute and have it last one minute. Second make it an automatic cone effect behind the PLD for the enemy he/she is engaged with. While on the PLD automatically attempts to COVER any nearby party/alliance member attacked behind the PLD that he/she is fighting. To keep things in check It only covers attacks made by the enemies they are directly engaged with.

Cover attempts are made AOES are forced to be focused on the PLD when successfully covered, this makes the blunt of the AOE target the PLD. This cover will activate on both magical and physical attacks provided the PLD is directly engaged with the enemy attacking or casting. The success of a cover starts at 90% and reduces 10% for each successful covers till it hits a minimum of 20% or the duration ends. To keep hate in check with each cover hate is taken from the covered player as though they where attacked instead of the PLD.


Or you could go the classic FF route, where Paladins/Knights are the strongest (or close to it) simply because of swords' significance in our culture. Give Paladin a job trait that doubles damage dealt with every attack when wielding swords and it will be relevant again, and sadly, not even overpowered. And honestly, swords are among the most useful melee weapons. Scythes, greatswords, and greataxes all have major issues with simply wielding the weapon. The katana used by ninja in videogames (the ones wielded with the blades backwards or upside-down) are fictional and impractical. Spears have too much recoil on impact and are ineffective in close combat. Great katana (decorative katana in real life) have the same recoil issue on impact, as well as issues with durability due to thinness and length. Small- to medium-length swords and knives are where it's at in real life for melee weapons.

Why not just give them a chance to auto counterbash (without stun) with a shield block or increase the duration and effect of the spell reprisal? Making PLDs DD isn't the solution. Changing them to them a better tanks is IMHO the best utility for the job. It's a TANK protector.

IMHO COVER is a super weak link on PLD the ability needs modified to make the job better as main or subjob. Change cover to protect ALL nearby allies behind them not just the one player behind them. Hate it or like it IMHO SE isn't going to make PLD a DD Job.

At least with cover changes like these they can truly be a TANK even with the bad enmity system. PLD shouldn't need the highest hate to tank effectively. This is a BIG issue that needs fixed for enemies that reset hate or DDs who can't go full out on damage. With changes to cover these DDs will still get hit just the PLD tank will be able to mitigate some of the attacks to them if they lose hate.

Some players may argue that this might make the PLD tank to well, I counter with WTF! If they're a tank and can't do massive amounts of damage like the DD's they're grouped with then they need something else to get a spot in an alliance. They must have something SPECIAL worth putting them in that slot over a DD. Since DAMAGE OUTPUT isn't a option they need to be equally useful in DEFENDING others who can provide better output if a PLD is used to mitigate damage. DD's should be allowed to Zerg but not 100% protected by the tank if they do. I Sincerely think fixing cover is the KEY to doing this.

I assure you make these changes and PLD will be a bad ass job that will make them worth while party spots in a lot more situations. Not just used for holding extra spawns.

Anyone that thinks that the cover changes I suggested are stupid please chime in I haven't seen anyone make anything even remotely better suited for making PLD a more viable tank without adding extra abilities or fudging with hate. In previous FF games cover was automatic and a trait/skill. I think having it as a trait would be broken because you wouldn't want it on in some cases. I also think it should have a duration that matches the recast and be easy to recast if dispelled.

Also a it'd be nice if they was able to use paralyna and poisona at level 25-30ish.

[Chocobits]

Here is the ultimate suggestion:

Combine PLD and DRK into one job. Then you have a job that can switch between offense and defense, generate and hold enmity with a wide variety of tools, have more survival tools, and has a plethora of weapons to choose from.

Listing off what this fixes:

Lack of damage output: Fixed
Lack of enmity generated due to lack of damage output: Fixed
Lack of volatile enmity: Fixed
Lack of ability to stay at hate cap: Fixed
Lack of self sufficiency: Fixed

Combine that with some adjustments to mob AI and attack power regarding AOE, and you have yourselves a FINE old game. Spit shined and ready to play.

[Rustic]

Here is the ultimate suggestion:

Combine PLD and DRK into one job. Then you have a job that can switch between offense and defense, generate and hold enmity with a wide variety of tools, have more survival tools, and has a plethora of weapons to choose from.

Listing off what this fixes:

Lack of damage output: Fixed
Lack of enmity generated due to lack of damage output: Fixed
Lack of volatile enmity: Fixed
Lack of ability to stay at hate cap: Fixed
Lack of self sufficiency: Fixed

Combine that with some adjustments to mob AI and attack power regarding AOE, and you have yourselves a FINE old game. Spit shined and ready to play.

So basically, Red Mage with better weapon skills and armor. ^ ^

[zataz]

while i dont care if they fix this or not people wanted 99 so we got it u cant complain about ideas we had that they used just another example of how the inmates should not run the asylum.

[Zagen]

while i dont care if they fix this or not people wanted 99 so we got it u cant complain about ideas we had that they used just another example of how the inmates should not run the asylum.

Huh? Are you trying to say tanking worked fine at 75? If so then you're sadly mistaken it was broken then too.

[Shenul]

Since everyone pretty much agrees that Cover is pretty useless currently (but a neat idea when we all first saw it), do to Cover what they did for WHMs and Divine Seal. Divine Veil makes all status removals AoE instead of single target. So why not have a Job Trait that does the same for Cover? Extended Cover could extend the range of cover to anyone on the same side of the mob as the PLD, and lowers the enmity for all of those players.

And please, just extend the duration to a minute for the base!

[Chocobits]

So basically, Red Mage with better weapon skills and armor. ^ ^

And skill ratings, and job abilities, and job traits that provide exactly what a tank REALLY needs.

[Chocobits]

Huh? Are you trying to say tanking worked fine at 75? If so then you're sadly mistaken it was broken then too.

Tanking worked fine at 75.. if you had two PLD/NIN bouncing hate and your only damage was primarily RNG and BLM, with occasional WAR/THF, SAM/THF or BLU/THF rushing in for spike damage and enmity planting (they TP'd on mobs outside of alliance). You could have a quick fight with a mob more or less planted in 1 spot. And yes, this was LOL but those of us that did it thought we were cool at the time. Memories. ^_^

[Zagen]

Tanking worked fine at 75.. if you had two PLD/NIN bouncing hate and your only damage was primarily RNG and BLM, with occasional WAR/THF, SAM/THF or BLU/THF rushing in for spike damage and enmity planting (they TP'd on mobs outside of alliance). You could have a quick fight with a mob more or less planted in 1 spot. And yes, this was LOL but those of us that did it thought we were cool at the time. Memories. ^_^

Ah I remember those days, where I thought SMN was the "best" DD because it was hate free lol. Glad they were done and gone once people learned how to buff via gear, food, and BRDs. Even before Sushi the singular tank role only existed for those who were scared, inexperienced, or attached to the concept. I can't think of a single NM/HNM from the 75 days that "required" a tank once people actually learned how to fight them and what to expect.

[Rustic]

And skill ratings, and job abilities, and job traits that provide exactly what a tank REALLY needs.

Exactly. Way to go at stomping RDM even further into the dirt there.

The enmity system is the linchpin of any successful way to "tank" in modern FFXI play. Until it's fixed, slapping together all that on anyone isn't going to give us a tank. It'll just give us someone who hits the cap sooner and watches their work vanish in a hail of DD.

[Chocobits]

Exactly. Way to go at stomping RDM even further into the dirt there.

The enmity system is the linchpin of any successful way to "tank" in modern FFXI play. Until it's fixed, slapping together all that on anyone isn't going to give us a tank. It'll just give us someone who hits the cap sooner and watches their work vanish in a hail of DD.

Read the thread right near this one that I started. I like the suggestions in this thread but they're mostly PLD-centric. I suggested fixes to PLD in the other thread by adjusting the numeric values for specific actions and changing some mechanics.