SoA or any future boxed collections [Archive]

Arcon

01-05-2013, 08:02 PM

I can't really understand why you'd want to have a 12+ hour download instead of a one hour install from a disc.

First, you mean a three hour download (with a slow connection, many people could do it in less than one) compared to a one hour long install (swapping several discs), which you have to keep stored and protected until the end of time and pray to god nothing happens to them or you'll end up one of those people who come on here and whine about not having an installation disc anymore and that no store ever sells them.

Second, even if they put an up-to-date version on a disc, it would be outdated again with the next update. Offering up-to-date content on a platform like Steam means you can always update it from there as soon as it's released (and you don't have to use SE's lame update servers and services). Full installation is a rare enough occurrence compared to the constant updating time you'd save by it, and that's only relevant if you have a shitty internet connection, otherwise you'd gain nothing at all from disc installations.

Last, I honestly doubt there even will be a new boxed collection out, ever. It's not profitable, and for good reason, because people don't wanna deal with that anymore.

Discs are evil and shouldn't exist. I can't really understand how anyone likes to torture themselves like that.

This game is now over 11 gb and many people have limited bandwidth.

That may be ignorance on my part. I wasn't aware (and I'm still not) that limited bandwidth plans still existed in this world. Unless you're playing on your mobile phone, that is, but I doubt it has a disc drive either.

Afania

01-05-2013, 11:38 PM

First, you mean a three hour download (with a slow connection, many people could do it in less than one) compared to a one hour long install (swapping several discs), which you have to keep stored and protected until the end of time and pray to god nothing happens to them or you'll end up one of those people who come on here and whine about not having an installation disc anymore and that no store ever sells them.

It took me 3~5 hours just to download patches last time when I tried to install the game.

Also some ppl like physical discs, I'm one of them. I have a huge collections of console/PC game/handheld games with over 150titles, like how ppl collect old music CDs. I liked physical content when I pay for a game, including box art, CD, manual etc. Hey I still keep some of the NES games even!

If ppl doesn't like to deal with discs and stuff, you won't see those old classic PS1 or PS2 game sell for $100 or even $300 on ebay.

If you like steam download more, by all means do it, but just because you like digital download and hate disks, doesn't mean everyone is same as you. It'd be a nice option for ppl wanting to collect it. I have every single FF titles, and it'd be nice if I can collect the latest expansion of FFXI too.

Arcon

01-06-2013, 12:51 AM

It took me 3~5 hours just to download patches last time when I tried to install the game.

That was SE's fault, and it's one of the things that would be remedied by shifting the uploading responsibilities to a third party with decent servers. It's simple math, 11GB with a 1MB/s downspeed connection will take you three hours. Considering some people have 100Mbit/s connections, the entire updated game could be downloaded in minutes if the server output is right.

Also some ppl like physical discs, I'm one of them. I have a huge collections of console/PC game/handheld games with over 150titles, like how ppl collect old music CDs. I liked physical content when I pay for a game, including box art, CD, manual etc. Hey I still keep some of the NES games even!

If ppl doesn't like to deal with discs and stuff, you won't see those old classic PS1 or PS2 game sell for $100 or even $300 on ebay.

Yes, you would, precisely because of what you said before. Some people simply like collecting them. That coupled with the fact that these discs aren't produced anymore, and those prices are perfectly understandable. It's not because discs are better or even good, but simply because some people like collecting.

Your fetish aside, objectively speaking discs are bad, there is only one upside and many downsides to them, the one advantage being that they're available offline or with a slow internet connection. The first point is irrelevant, since the game can't be played offline anyway, so the only reason to cling to it is for people with slow internet connections. And as I explained above, even with a slow connection it's just a couple of hours of downloading, and it's a one-time deal. And even those three hours you won't be sitting in front of it, waiting for the download to finish, but you'll spend them doing other things, or do it overnight, or while at work, etc. There's many ways around it, for the few people for whom it's actually relevant. That, on the other hand, does not apply to local installation. You will need to be present every now and again to swap discs, because the game doesn't fit on even two standard DVDs, so you always have to be ready to swap the discs when needed.

And it still won't be much faster from CD, because if it's even one update behind, chances are you'll have to download many older files again as well. It's not just new content being added, but if one thing in an older file is changed (such as an erroneous item description, or new NPCs are added to older zones), the entire DAT needs to be downloaded again. And the more updates pass, the more outdated content from the CD has to be replaced, so the required updating time will approach the full download time as time passes.

Like I said, if you like it, that's perfectly valid, but don't try to make it more than it is, because that's the only argument for it. It has no advantages to anyone and it would be very expensive for SE. Of course they could release it for a certain price on order as a special collection (they may actually do that), but that's as far as reason goes on this subject.

Catmato

01-06-2013, 02:30 AM

First, you mean a three hour download
As you have stated, this does assume they've shifted distribution to a third party. As it currently stands though, downloading the entire game from SE's servers would take much, much longer than three hours.

Second, even if they put an up-to-date version on a disc, it would be outdated again with the next update.
That is true, but the initial update after installation could be cut from the current 3-5 hours (using Afaina's anecdotal time instead of my own) down to theoretically less than an hour. Even if they change 2000 files immediately, that's still significantly fewer than the 50k+ files that make up the entire game.

I wasn't aware (and I'm still not) that limited bandwidth plans still existed in this world.
If you know any players from Australia, I'm sure they'd be more than willing to tell you about their bandwidth limits.

Your fetish aside, objectively speaking discs are bad, there is only one upside and many downsides to them Desiring to own a physical copy of they game one purchases shouldn't be so rudely depreciated to a term such as "fetish". I prefer not to rely on a third party, with their own questionable licensing and agreements, to obtain the game that I've already purchased from SE. It's inane that you'd be willing to discard your, and all other players', ownership rights just to satisfy your digital distribution "fetish".

Teraniku

01-06-2013, 03:17 AM

I'd buy a new Collection on disc just to have an updated install. I just wish you could install the game as a Digital Download from POL itself. (By installing POL and Updating it, once you click on the "PLAY" button for FFXI it Should begin installing the current client automatically, but that's just me)

Krashport

01-06-2013, 03:23 AM

Windows® PC (Digital Download), Only? (http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/adoulin/index.html)

Arcon

01-06-2013, 03:39 AM

As you have stated, this does assume they've shifted distribution to a third party.

That's what my argument was about. I was comparing an updated version of the game on physical media vs. digitally distributed. Of course it sucks as it is now, but it wouldn't be much better on discs, because most people wouldn't buy it again just for the shorter installation time, whereas on Steam it would immediately become available for everyone who already has it.

That is true, but the initial update after installation could be cut from the current 3-5 hours (using Afaina's anecdotal time instead of my own) down to theoretically less than an hour. Even if they change 2000 files immediately, that's still significantly fewer than the 50k+ files that make up the entire game.

Fewer yes, noticeable, also. And they won't bring out a new boxed collection every year.

If you know any players from Australia, I'm sure they'd be more than willing to tell you about their bandwidth limits.

They did, but that was years ago. I figured it got better by now, and looking through random offers I found after a 2min Google search I was right.

Desiring to own a physical copy of they game one purchases shouldn't be so rudely depreciated to a term such as "fetish". I prefer not to rely on a third party, with their own questionable licensing and agreements, to obtain the game that I've already purchased from SE. It's inane that you'd be willing to discard your, and all other players', ownership rights just to satisfy your digital distribution "fetish".

It's not rude or depreciating, it's what it is, a desire for something with no obvious advantages for the sake of satisfying a personal obsession (in this case, collection). Which is also why mine isn't a fetish, because I don't want it just for the sake of it, I want it for practical reasons.

You do not own FFXI. Not now, not on Steam, not anywhere. You own copies of POL and licenses to some of its content. You pay for licensing, and that's something Steam can't take away. Even if your Steam account does get banned, you can still play the game (even with the same installation). It's true that you will have lost your copy of the game (one you can get for free from various sources), but I don't know why you think that's an issue. Right now SE is holding your account hostage. Do you trust them with it? Personally I'd trust Valve more, even if they have almost no effect on it, but I guess that's where your personal preference and paranoia comes in.

Unless you're doing something with your Steam account that you shouldn't be doing, that will never become an issue. It's much more likely to lose or damage your physical discs than to have anything happen to them on there (as evidenced by the several threads about damaged/lost/missing discs on here and various other FFXI forums already). For that matter, statistically it's also much more likely that SE will ban you for botting than having your Steam account suspended. And if you're still not convinced, just get a separate Steam account for FFXI. Since playing FFXI doesn't register as activity on Steam (it doesn't go through Steam at all), they won't even know your account is active at all.

Having an updated version of the game available on a decent online distribution platform is a significant advantage for speed and convenience, losing the rights to your games is paranoia, as it does not and will never affect you in any way (again, not counting your own shady doings). On the other hand a new boxed collection would do nothing for many people, because they don't wanna rebuy a collection just for a quicker installation, and for the ones who do, they won't notice much of a difference regardless, because of the reasons stated above. A slightly faster installation process, at first. That's it.

Edit:

Windows® PC (Digital Download), Only? (http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/adoulin/index.html)

Websites with automatically starting sound should get banned from the internet and the people responsible fired and blacklisted from whatever job they were doing.

Catmato

01-06-2013, 09:20 AM

no obvious advantages for the sake of satisfying a personal obsession (in this case, collection).

Except I have given multiple advantages over the current system. If you can't acknowledge that there are advantages to updated physical media, this is the last I will comment on the matter.

Websites with automatically starting sound should get banned from the internet and the people responsible fired and blacklisted from whatever job they were doing.
I can't agree with this more.

Alhanelem

01-06-2013, 10:18 AM

i buy almost all PC games digitally now. Other than the collectability of a physical object, I don't see much value to physical distribution on a personal level. You could never really resell PC games anyway, much less this game. A disc copy is only of value to me when its resellable.

Afania

01-06-2013, 06:25 PM

That was SE's fault, and it's one of the things that would be remedied by shifting the uploading responsibilities to a third party with decent servers. It's simple math, 11GB with a 1MB/s downspeed connection will take you three hours. Considering some people have 100Mbit/s connections, the entire updated game could be downloaded in minutes if the server output is right.

Yes, you would, precisely because of what you said before. Some people simply like collecting them. That coupled with the fact that these discs aren't produced anymore, and those prices are perfectly understandable. It's not because discs are better or even good, but simply because some people like collecting.

Your fetish aside, objectively speaking discs are bad, there is only one upside and many downsides to them, the one advantage being that they're available offline or with a slow internet connection. The first point is irrelevant, since the game can't be played offline anyway, so the only reason to cling to it is for people with slow internet connections. And as I explained above, even with a slow connection it's just a couple of hours of downloading, and it's a one-time deal. And even those three hours you won't be sitting in front of it, waiting for the download to finish, but you'll spend them doing other things, or do it overnight, or while at work, etc. There's many ways around it, for the few people for whom it's actually relevant. That, on the other hand, does not apply to local installation. You will need to be present every now and again to swap discs, because the game doesn't fit on even two standard DVDs, so you always have to be ready to swap the discs when needed.

And it still won't be much faster from CD, because if it's even one update behind, chances are you'll have to download many older files again as well. It's not just new content being added, but if one thing in an older file is changed (such as an erroneous item description, or new NPCs are added to older zones), the entire DAT needs to be downloaded again. And the more updates pass, the more outdated content from the CD has to be replaced, so the required updating time will approach the full download time as time passes.

Like I said, if you like it, that's perfectly valid, but don't try to make it more than it is, because that's the only argument for it. It has no advantages to anyone and it would be very expensive for SE. Of course they could release it for a certain price on order as a special collection (they may actually do that), but that's as far as reason goes on this subject.

Except I'm NOT comparing the pros and cons of digital download v.s getting disks, I'm saying it'd be nice if both options exist for 2 different groups, while you're like "Disks are bad, they shouldn't exist, SE shouldn't ship boxed expansion, because ppl gonna come up and complain when they can't find it in stores etc etc" (Ppl complain about everything, you seriously think it's a valid arguement against something?), basically just shut off 1 of the option because you don't like another option.

I did not ever ask you to install from disks instead of steam, if you like digital download better, by all means do it, but it'd be nice to provide alternative options for those with slower connections and just hate to spend 3hr to download that many files. I don't have 100M connections, I use wifi and share my internet with like 10 ppl in same house. My internet sucked and I hate download.

Alhanelem

01-07-2013, 01:48 AM

Except I'm NOT comparing the pros and cons of digital download v.s getting disks, I'm saying it'd be nice if both options exist for 2 different groups, while you're like "Disks are bad, they shouldn't exist,It costs more to make disks and boxes. If most people will get a digital download, making a boxed copy wont be worth the investment, It's not a matter of good/bad, it's a matter of 'not worth the expense.'

Spiritreaver

01-07-2013, 07:45 AM

Hmmm. This thread seems really familiar. All you have to do is replace 'boxed set' with 'PS2' and 'digital download' with 'get a PC noob!'

Toadie-Odie

01-07-2013, 09:12 AM

Also some ppl like physical discs, I'm one of them. I have a huge collections of console/PC game/handheld games with over 150titles, like how ppl collect old music CDs. I liked physical content when I pay for a game, including box art, CD, manual etc. Hey I still keep some of the NES games even!

We still have a working Atari system and games to go with it, even though only my mother ever plays it now.

SpankWustler

01-07-2013, 11:41 AM

I just want to chime in and say that I hope that whoever made the Seekers of Adoulin site automatically make noise is suffering the most difficult bowel movement of his or her life right now.

Afania

01-07-2013, 08:12 PM

It costs more to make disks and boxes. If most people will get a digital download, making a boxed copy wont be worth the investment, It's not a matter of good/bad, it's a matter of 'not worth the expense.'

Do you sell games? Do you have marketing analyze regarding selling games? A lot of times selling a product is more than just "Nobody is going to buy disks, they're just going to download it, thus is not worth the investment", because there's more to that when it comes to selling a product and not as simple as it seems.

I'd say it depend on how they want to release it. A few days ago I saw stores selling Command and Conquer collection, the box says there are no disks just digital download, but the physical copy of the game still in store! If everyone's going to download the game, why bother to sell them in store? But the fact is, because I saw it in store, so I was semi-interested in the product. Otherwise I will never bother.

A few days ago I also saw Rift expansion in store, so why put it in store when we can just download it? But when I see rift in store, I was like "Oh, Rift new expansion is out, I gonna check it out on internet when I go home", I don't follow gaming news, if I don't see Rift expansion pack in store I will never know it's expansion is out. Same for Guildwars 2, when it's out for a few days, it was out of stock in every store near my house, so I was like "Omg is GW2 that good? Maybe I need to check it out!"

Safe to say if those games are not in store, I will never notice them, let alone go to Steam and download them. If I see them in store, maybe I will pay attention, and maybe go try it out, that's the additional marketing value it generates.

There are many ways to release SoA, that can get more ppl to know that FFXI just released new expansion, come back and try it out, not just put them on steam for sale silently. Selling on Steam is one way, but there are many more. There are also players from different region that doesn't use Steam, nor even heard of it nor bother to study about them, there's no need to go "Steam or gtfo"(Yes, players from Singapore, Dubai, Saudi Arabia, Taiwan, Korea, any many other countries also plays this game, and many of them don't know wtf Steam is and don't use Paypal)

Toadie-Odie

01-07-2013, 08:17 PM

Hi all,
I purchased a digital copy of FFXI about a year ago possibly longer. It's no longer on my PC because of a reformat. I am trying to reinstall it on this laptop. All searches and FAQ I've seen have redirected me to purchasing a copy as if I'm a new player.

What do I do? Where do I go?

Thx,
Cap

Okay, seeing posts like these in the technical support thread is the reason I want a disk. Most online stores have a limited time frame in which you can download and redownload your digital product. I don't want to lose my copy of the game just because of some deadline to download it.

Toadie-Odie

01-07-2013, 10:22 PM

Or better yet, allow us the means to make a back-up hard copy of our game. I know it could be done with the PC, not sure how feasible this would be for console games though.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

01-07-2013, 10:26 PM

I know it could be done with the PC, not sure how feasible this would be for console games though.

You can't buy burnable discs that have the proper copy-protection keys for the console's lock-outs. Many consoles will flat-out refused to read burned media in gaming mode.

Toadie-Odie

01-07-2013, 10:34 PM

You can't buy burnable discs that have the proper copy-protection keys for the console's lock-outs. Many consoles will flat-out refused to read burned media in gaming mode.

Oh that sucks, so that's not a solution at all. :(

bungiefanNA

01-08-2013, 04:26 AM

Discs are evil and shouldn't exist. I can't really understand how anyone likes to torture themselves like that.

That may be ignorance on my part. I wasn't aware (and I'm still not) that limited bandwidth plans still existed in this world. Unless you're playing on your mobile phone, that is, but I doubt it has a disc drive either.

Many Canadian ISPs limit monthly bandwidth usage to 2 GB per month, with overage fees. Most of Alaska doesn't have unlimited usage internet either, and the ISP in the largest city has a 2 GB/month usage plan with $5 per GB over. It only goes down to $1/GB over if you spend about $150 a month on a 22 Mbps connection with a 200 GB/month limit, which you can hit in 22 hours of use. 1 Mbps is the most common speed available here, and that takes me usually 10 hours to patch on a fresh install.

Monthly usage limits are also standard in Europe.

Discs avoid the biggest part of the download of a fresh install, the 10+ GB of data to download. Patching is usually just about 1 GB. Also, discs let you reinstall when you may not have a stable connection, without having to wait a long time for the download to finish so you can start the patch. Storing a disc in ISO file format to quickly reinstall with Daemon-Tools is also a plus.

Heck, less than a year ago in the US, Comcast finally started ignoring their 250 GB/month usage limit, and are now considering reinstating it at 300-600 GB/month. (FYI I use about 300 GB/month on my unlimited 1 Mbps, but that's not available all over my city, much less my state) We are having more and more devices connect to the internet to update themselves (TVs, game consoles, computers, BluRay players, smart printers) and the software they run, and so we are using more bandwidth. Also, services like CrunchyRoll and NetFlix use a lot of bandwidth, especially if you use them as a replacement for broadcast and cable TV, and Skype/Google Voice to replace a land phone.

As far as minimizing reinstall though, you can copy your FFXI folder to an external hard drive, and then when you reinstall from disc, just install the core game and copy the backed up folder over it. You'll have all the expansions, your local data, and all the patches up to when you backed up your game folder. When I get a new friend into the game, I give them an install disc and loan them my external hard drive with my patches applied. They install and copy the folder over and have the game up and running in under an hour. BlueGartr also maintains a Zipped patch thread with much faster download speeds than the SE servers, and you can store the patch files on a flash drive.

Arcon

01-08-2013, 07:10 AM

Many Canadian ISPs limit monthly bandwidth usage to 2 GB per month, with overage fees.

A brief comparison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Canada#Comparison) of Canadian internet service providers shows 15GB/month to be the absolute lowest of any providers, some even offering unlimited data plans (in their lowest tiers). I don't know where you got that number from. Maybe mobile connections, as those are usually lower.

Monthly usage limits are also standard in Europe.

Personally I know of no European country where that is the case. The UK has several unlimited plans, and others are in a high range. In Scandinavian countries, Germany and some surrounding countries almost no provider imposes a usage limit (I'm not aware of any such plans in Germany, and haven't been any for the last decade or so). What countries in Europe follow that standard?

Discs avoid the biggest part of the download of a fresh install, the 10+ GB of data to download. Patching is usually just about 1 GB.

Not true. Most of the complete install from the original discs needs to be redownloaded with a current install of the game. This would be somewhat remedied with a newer installation on CDs, at least for about a year or so.

Afania

01-08-2013, 09:21 PM

A brief comparison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Canada#Comparison) of Canadian internet service providers shows 15GB/month to be the absolute lowest of any providers, some even offering unlimited data plans (in their lowest tiers). I don't know where you got that number from. Maybe mobile connections, as those are usually lower.

I'm not 100% sure what's my bandwidth since I'm not the one who pay for it, but just 1 year ago my ISP cut off our internet access because we used too much bandwidth(again, I share internet with like 10 ppl in same house, and slow as fuck with this many ppl sharing internet), and my landlord(who's paying for internet) is unwilling to pay more for better service, it's fact that not everyone is convenient to download 10GB worth of file everytime they install the game.

oliveira

01-08-2013, 10:46 PM

Guys, I have an JPN PS2 disc which install the whole game up to ToAU (FFXI ONLINE PACK 2006 SLPM-66393) and it's 2.69 GB of data in it, including the POL client.

Then there's a standalone WoTG expansion disc (SLPM-66894) which adds 1.90 GB. The files in them are not compressed, btw.

We're quite short on files in them, right ? Face it whenever you guys dislike it or not, the installers from the "Collection" versions only have half of the game data and you have NO CHOICE but download the other half of the game from POL using the update function.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

01-08-2013, 10:57 PM

We're quite short on files in them, right ?

Is there a 1:1 relationship between the size on install media and the size on the HDD? Does the footprint on the HDD increase between installation and the first update?

oliveira

01-09-2013, 12:40 AM

Is there a 1:1 relationship between the size on install media and the size on the HDD? Does the footprint on the HDD increase between installation and the first update?

I know that after a clean install the PS2 downloads something around 23000 files... -_-l;

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

01-11-2013, 10:51 PM

Answering my own question, using PS2 discs:

PlayOnline Viewer & Tetra Master: 183 MB
Final Fantasy XI and Rise of the Zilart: 2.66 GB
Chains of Promathia: 2.00 GB
Treasures of Aht Urhgan: 1.45 GB
Wings of the Goddess: 1.69 GB

Vana'diel Collection 2008: 2.95 GB

It's clear that there is a great deal of overlap between the discs. I'll see what the footprint is on the HDD after installation and update on Tuesday, when I get my PS3 back from being serviced.

Alhanelem

01-12-2013, 12:13 AM

There's not that much overlap, that's not far off from the actual size of my install- remember that updates update old files, not just add new ones.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

01-12-2013, 12:35 AM

There's not that much overlap,

PlayOnline Viewer & Tetra Master: 183 MB
Final Fantasy XI and Rise of the Zilart: 2.66 GB
Chains of Promathia: 2.00 GB
Treasures of Aht Urhgan: 1.45 GB
Wings of the Goddess: 1.69 GB

Vana'diel Collection 2008: 2.95 GB

0.183 + 2.66 + 2.00 + 1.45 + 1.69 = 7.983

7.983 >> 2.95

But this brings me back to my earlier point: think before you write.

Godofgods

01-12-2013, 02:42 AM

Incase it helps anyone. They are releaseing a new combinded disk. As for having all you want on it, youll jsut have to wait and see.

SoA All in one Disk. (http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/adoulin/index.html)
The FINAL FANTASY XI Ultimate Collection Seekers Edition features FINAL FANTASY XI, Seekers of Adoulin, and all previously released expansion and add-on packs including Rise of the Zilart, Chains of Promathia, Treasures of Aht Urhgan, Wings of the Goddess, A Crystalline Prophecy, A Moogle Kupo d’Etat, A Shantotto Ascension, Vision of Abyssea, Scars of Abyssea, and Heroes of Abyssea.

Toadie-Odie

01-12-2013, 03:10 AM

Very nice! :3

Alhanelem

01-12-2013, 08:25 AM

PlayOnline Viewer & Tetra Master: 183 MB
Final Fantasy XI and Rise of the Zilart: 2.66 GB
Chains of Promathia: 2.00 GB
Treasures of Aht Urhgan: 1.45 GB
Wings of the Goddess: 1.69 GB

Vana'diel Collection 2008: 2.95 GBI thought before I wrote. I compared my actual install size to the size of the data on the original discs- not to the collection disc.

If the collection disc is smaller in data size than the original discs, then more data must have to be downloaded through the updater. Your math doesn't necessairly indicate overlap- you should check how many files have to be downloaded with the individual installs vs the collection install.

Can please stop being so insulting when you post? People make mistakes. You don't have to stick it in their faces.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

01-12-2013, 11:07 PM

If the collection disc is smaller in data size than the original discs, then more data must have to be downloaded through the updater.

Vana'diel Collection 2008: 2.95 GB

Do you know what the capacity of a DVD is, or are you just trying to sound knowledgeable again?

zataz

01-13-2013, 01:49 AM

<,< seekers should be download or blue ray only lol just my Opinion. to everyone who said ps2 players get with the times i tell u pc players to get with the times and get a blueray drive! or download it. and yes my comp has a blue ray drive <,<

Alhanelem

01-13-2013, 02:01 AM

Do you know what the capacity of a DVD is, or are you just trying to sound knowledgeable again?
The size of a single sided 2 layer DVD under the DVD-9 specification is 7.95 GB (or more accurately GiB). What are you trying to say. (1 side 1 layer DVD-5 is 4.37 GB)

Are you just trying to be an ass again? I guess you didn't read the part about not trying to insult me?

It is is a physical unlikelyhood that there is so much overlap between each individual expansion/game disc that we can condense 8 GB worth of data into 3GB. That's some amazing compression if they really did that, especially considering any DVD specification that could fit the data on the collection disc has plenty room for more data.

As I said before, there is a simple way to determine how much overlap there actually is, and that's by the data downloaded in the update process. But i'm not sure why you even started talking about this in the first place. We already know that a collection disc will be available for the xbox. So if we're talking about disc sizes because SoA should fit onto a collection disc, guess what: it will. But odds are it won't include any of the update data and with good reason: The total actual size of my FFXI install folder is nearly 14GB. Uncompressed it would only fit into a double sided quad layer DVD (or a blu-ray). So offering all data, up to date, on a single disc so no or minimal updating is required afterwards is impractical. They could include more data, and reduce the updating time, but they couldn't include all of it- and it would quickly go out of date anyway.

If not, I concede that really don't have a farking clue what you're talking about or why and I'm not sure how anyone else could either. Because your point, if you have one, is not obvious. This thread is asking for new collection discs/installs to include a fuller amount of the game data so you dont spend several hours updating- at least, that's what I gather from the original post. My understanding is you're trying to support the OP's argument. Hopefully, my feeble mind at least understands that part?

odericko

01-13-2013, 09:42 AM

I have the old PS2 box of XI that came with the HDD, Treasures version for 360, a standard edition with Zilart, a 2007 collection, a 2008 collection, and the two Ultimate collections all for PC - I'll definitely buy a boxed version of SoA. I don't regret my XIV CE or XIV gamepad even though they're just collecting dust now, I like boxed games.

wildsprite

01-13-2013, 09:52 AM

Alhanelem

01-13-2013, 11:38 AM

the technical term for GigaByte is NOT GiB it is GB They are both technical terms- they are used to distinguish between different calculations of byte size. Windows reports a Kilobyte as 1024 bytes, megabyte as 1024 Kilobytes, etc. However, hardware manufacturers and some other operating systems report bytes as 1 Kilobyte = 1000 bytes, 1 Megabyte = 1000 Kilobytes, etc.

This is why there is a significant discrepancy in how windows reports the capacity of a disk vs how the disk manufacturer reports it (It is not just because of the space used by the filesystem itself)

The term "Mibibyte (MiB) and Kibibyte (KiB) etc refer to the former. The term was created to disambiguate between the two different calculations, but the terms are not in wide use by the general populace at this time.

Catmato

01-13-2013, 10:41 PM

Incase it helps anyone. They are releaseing a new combinded disk. As for having all you want on it, youll jsut have to wait and see.Following that link, it says "Windows® PC (Digital Download) $39.99" which suggests they aren't currently planning to release a physical copy.

Face it whenever you guys dislike it or not, the installers from the "Collection" versions only have half of the game data and you have NO CHOICE but download the other half of the game from POL using the update function.If you'd reread the OP, you'd find that is what this thread was addressing. It only (slightly) later derailed into physical vs. digital distribution.

A bunch of irrelevant crap.That has nothing to do with this thread. Please take it elsewhere.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

01-13-2013, 10:45 PM

The size of a single sided 2 layer DVD under the DVD-9 specification is 7.95 GB (or more accurately GiB). What are you trying to say. (1 side 1 layer DVD-5 is 4.37 GB)

Very good! Now, care to explain why you believe that S-E would both pay to ship DVD's that are (at least) half-empty and pay for the bandwidth to upload thousands of copies of the information that could have been pressed onto said half-empty DVD's? If nobody else, I'm sure S-E's shareholders would be very interested in what can only be described as a gross mismanagement of corporate funds.

Are you just trying to be an ass again? I guess you didn't read the part about not trying to insult me?

Allow me to explain with your own words:

Because, people don't get it, and I'm making an apparently futile effort to help them get it?

It is is a physical unlikelyhood that there is so much overlap between each individual expansion/game disc that we can condense 8 GB worth of data into 3GB.

Unless, of course, much of the information contained on each of the discs applies to older content or is otherwise redundant. Y'know, overlap.

Otherwise, S-E could spend about 2 yen more per unit to press dual-layerd PS2 DVDs and call it a day instead of ZOMG bandwidth costs.

As I said before, there is a simple way to determine how much overlap there actually is, and that's by the data downloaded in the update process.

So simple that you haven't tried it yet? C'mon, this is your big opportunity to put me in my place and maybe get me to shut up!

Back up your macros and settings.
Uninstall the game.
Take note of data sizes:
on the install media
after a fresh install, but before updating
after updating

post your results, for science!

But i'm not sure why you even started talking about this in the first place.

Face it whenever you guys dislike it or not, the installers from the "Collection" versions only have half of the game data and you have NO CHOICE but download the other half of the game from POL using the update function.

This thread is asking for new collection discs/installs to include a fuller amount of the game data so you dont spend several hours updating

And then someone responded saying it wasn't possible for the entire game to fit on a single disc, because the '06 collection disc and the WotG disc don't add up.
And then I pointed out that all the original (PS2 NA) discs add up to considerably more than the '08 collection, with lots of room to spare.
And then you came in with your precocious little routine of trying to sound like you know what you're talking about, failing to do basic math in the process.
And then I pointed out the absolute fiscal irresponsibility of your conjecture.

And here we are! Wasn't that fun?

Jackstin

01-13-2013, 10:53 PM

What about multiple disks?

/hides

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

01-13-2013, 11:09 PM

Guys, I have an JPN PS2

Which brings up an interesting question: do you know if one can mix and match JP and NA discs on the same PS2/3 without having to muck about with hacks and/or other such third-party tools? :D Or are you just playing with straight JP hardware and software?

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

01-13-2013, 11:13 PM

What about multiple disks?

That's pretty much what they've always done in a sense, at least for the PC version. Ultimate Collection Abyssea Edition has separate installers for:
PlayOnline Viewer
Final Fantasy XI
Rise of the Zilart
Chains of Promathia
Treasrues of Aht Urhgan
Wings of the Goddess

and a seventh, meta-installer to walk through the whole thing. It's pretty much a straight 1:1 copy of the original release discs bundled into one package, because cheap/lazy.

Catmato

01-14-2013, 12:18 AM

a seventh, meta-installer.

Are you referring to the autorun program that has all of the expansions and DirectX listed as buttons to click? Or is there something that's more automated than that?

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

01-14-2013, 12:57 AM

Are you referring to the autorun program that has all of the expansions and DirectX listed as buttons to click? Or is there something that's more automated than that?

FINALFANTASYXIUCAE.exe is a ~2.3 MB application that first unzips the three data files it comes with into seven individual directories (DirectX, POL, FFXI, 4 expansions), presents the user with a screen with the seven individual packages as list of checkboxes, and then automatically walks through the individual installers the user checked, from the top of the list to the bottom.

It's still not exactly fire-and-forget, but it's considerably more robust than the autorun splash screen that came on my original 5 CD set.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

01-14-2013, 01:45 AM

I should contrast this with the console versions. There, FFXI and its add-ons must be installed from within the PlayOnline Viewer itself (via an "install software" option on the POL login screen). After loading the disc and selecting that option, you're taken to a splash screen where you can opt to watch the introductory movie (the one that PC players are shown every time they start FFXI by default), install the software, or watch the credits (or something like that, been a while).

If you choose to install, the player then gets to watch a crystal spin around for an hour or so while all FFXI software on the disc is installed; even if a disc has more than one package bundled onto it (e. g. FFXI + RotZ), there's still no option to pick and choose what to install.

So it seems at least some effort is made on the console end of things to mesh things together into a seamless whole when it comes to these collections, versus "cram 7 CDs and 2 DVDs into a ZIP file with a fresh coat of paint" that PC seems to get currently.

(On the other hand, this means that, outside Japan, only PC players can see what FFXI looks like with no expansions installed, if you're into that sort of thing.)

Alhanelem

01-14-2013, 01:53 AM

Now, care to explain why you believe that S-E would both pay to ship DVD's that are (at least) half-empty and pay for the bandwidth to upload thousands of copies of the information that could have been pressed onto said half-empty DVD's?I don't? Quote where I expressed this belief? I do not personally feel they should offer a pressed disc at all. The primary clientele of this game is more than able to just download it.

Unless, of course, much of the information contained on each of the discs applies to older content or is otherwise redundant. Y'know, overlap.You could, y,know, actually go check the contents of the CDs and compare the files and see just how much overlap there actually is, instead of just flinging snarky sarcasm at me and trying to insult me?

There might be "plenty of room" for more data on a DVD, when you account for some hypothetical amount of overlap you haven't shown or proven (The one bit of data that absolutely must overlap is monsters/enemy models/sounds/etc introduced in a previous expansion but used in the next one, in case you do not install the expansions in order or do not install all of them) but there's still not enough room on a normal DVD to include all of the most current data, as the total size of FFXI far exceeds the size of a standard DVD. You would still need at least 2 discs for that. So, what you are asking for is still less practical/probable than you want us to think it is.

I don't understand why this is such a big deal in the first place. Yes, it's annoying, but it's something most people only need to do once. It's not rocket science, either.

So simple that you haven't tried it yet? C'mon, this is your big opportunity to put me in my place and maybe get me to shut up!Sorry, too lazy. I already reinstalled the game a week ago because I got a new SSD and had to reinstall my OS since disk cloning didn't work. Maybe when we're fighting over something that won't take as long to analyze. Next time!

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

01-14-2013, 03:16 AM

I don't? Quote where I expressed this belief?

Oh, little grasshopper...

Vana'diel Collection 2008: 2.95 GB

If the collection disc is smaller in data size than the original discs, then more data must have to be downloaded through the updater.

Do you know what the capacity of a DVD is(?)

1 side 1 layer DVD-5 is 4.37 GB

Uploads are priced per bit. DVDs are priced per disc, no matter how many or how few bits are on each disc. If you shift bit delivery from uploads to DVD (bits that would have to get from S-E to the player regardless), you reduce the cost of the former with no change in cost of the latter; this is a net cost savings.

Even if DVD bits might have to get overwritten by upload bits at a later date, there is still no cost in including those bits on DVD anyway; at worst it puts off the cost of pushing the new upload bits until a later date (letting S-E do more profitable things with that money in the meantime).

Executive summary:
Pressing redundant data to otherwise empty DVD = free
Uploading data = $$$

Now, did you "state" that...

you believe that S-E would both pay to ship DVD's that are (at least) half-empty and pay for the bandwidth to upload thousands of copies of the information that could have been pressed onto said half-empty DVD's?

No, you did not. But did you actually believe it? Either you did or you hadn't gotten there yet. If the collection disc was near capacity you would have had a case, but as it stands now, this is the only possible terminus to your train of thought.

Alhanelem

01-14-2013, 03:43 AM

Pressing redundant data to otherwise empty DVD = free
Uploading data = $$$

You forgot one thing: Pressing the disc at all = $$$. No, the amount of data on it doesn't impact the actual cost, though technically you are wasting at least small amounts of money by not fully utilizing a disc. However, I can not claim to know if there is a real measureable cost difference in different capacity DVDs/CDs/Blurays. That being said including data on the disc just for the sake of filling it up when people will have to download that data again anyway may be "free", but it's also useless. Even if they press the disc to contain 100% of the game data up to the minute accurate right this second, it will still be out of date as soon as the next patch or hotfxi rolls out. This means they either need to release new discs every several patches just to update the installers (more $$$), or just make everyone download the update data as they always have

Either you did or you hadn't gotten there yet. If the collection disc was near capacity you would have had a case,You forgot that I agreed and admitted that there is some redundant data amongst the individual expansion discs- There has to be, in case you install the expansions out of order or don't install all of them. But since you're not forced to install everything on the collection CD (unless I'm mistaken? I could be) that redundant data would still need to exist multiple times for each expansion installer, unless they bothered to program the installer scripts to read the same files for each expansion (which wouldn't be hard to do, but you don't know, maybe they're stupid and don't know how to do this?)

I don't know if you think I'm opposed to the original idea of this thread or not, so I'll just spell it out, I'm not. However, I'm a realist and I think hell will freeze over before SE actually does this. All we're really fighting over here is the likely reasons why.

I'm not sure why you're being so agressive and borderline insulting towards me, when I"m not even really against the premise of the thread.

Teraniku

01-15-2013, 06:01 PM

Checking my FFXI folder on my PC the game takes up around 11.1GB right now.

Demon6324236

01-15-2013, 06:54 PM

I'm not sure why you're being so agressive and borderline insulting towards me, when I"m not even really against the premise of the thread.Because earlier you seemed to be coming off with an aggressive tone, also, aggressive tones of conversation often gather more attention. If he believes you were ignoring his points, or you were being aggressive, its only natural to become more aggressive yourself in an attempt to be paid attention to and at the same time, show the other person how they were coming across.

I wont act as if I remember the rest of this or how you seemed in the 1st bit of this ongoing debate, however if you were in fact aggressive, then this may be how you seemed to him, in which case it should serve as an example to you of how you should better revise the way someone may read and take in your post. This is mostly just explaining why I think he may have the sort of aggressive tone he has right now. If its right or not I cant say, but it would make sense, and if I remember correctly you do at times seem to come off more aggressive even if you mean to or not.

Okipuit

01-29-2013, 11:01 AM

Alhanelem

01-29-2013, 12:39 PM

Whenever we release a new all-in-one collection we make sure to include as much of the recent updates as possible. As for installing all the expansions at once, unfortunately because of the way that the data is installed, it's not possible to do at this time.
I don't know, I can just copy my entire FFXI folder somewhere, delete the game, copy the files back, and re-create the registry keys and it will work just fine. I don't see why you can't have just one installer that goes through all of the expansion's data in sequence without having to do anything in between each one. All you'd have to do is set up the installer script to install the base game, then install the data for one expansion, then the next, etc. Then the added bonus of this is the game only shows up once in add/remove programs.

Economizer

01-29-2013, 12:52 PM

Whenever we release a new all-in-one collection we make sure to include as much of the recent updates as possible. As for installing all the expansions at once, unfortunately because of the way that the data is installed, it's not possible to do at this time.

Question: Will the non-collection versions of Seekers have all the expansion data for players needing to reinstall?

This is particularly important for the Xbox version.

Byrth

01-29-2013, 12:54 PM

Unless they want to release a 3 DVD set, it probably will not. That is likely what they're avoiding with their 24 hour download/update time.

Chocobits

01-29-2013, 01:33 PM

Whenever we release a new all-in-one collection we make sure to include as much of the recent updates as possible. As for installing all the expansions at once, unfortunately because of the way that the data is installed because of the way we package the installers and the monstrously outdated packaging software we are using, it's not possible to do at this time.

Seriously, migrating our FFXI installs to another PC has been popular since 2006. In fact, once I took the time to repackage all of the installers into 1. Here's a hint: each expansion does NOT need to be a separate program. It makes no bearing on how the game runs or with using registration codes for expansions. If we can literally copy paste the FFXI folder and run a batch to register all the dlls and run a simple registry hack to move the entire game, including all of our PUB folders from one machine to another.. Quit packaging each expansion separately. We only need 1 line in our Add/Remove programs. In my case, I don't even HAVE an entry for FFXI in my Add/Remove programs. Game runs hella good. Probably better than a normal install, somehow.

PlayOnline doesn't need a separate installer either..

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

01-29-2013, 11:33 PM

In my case, I don't even HAVE an entry for FFXI in my Add/Remove programs.

Yeah... that's not something a professional software house is going to emulate.

Rustic

01-30-2013, 03:06 AM

Whenever we release a new all-in-one collection we make sure to include as much of the recent updates as possible. As for installing all the expansions at once, unfortunately because of the way that the data is installed, it's not possible to do at this time.

There's places like Amazon, Gamespot, (heck, Steam duh!) that allow you to re-DL game files so you can get games back onto new computers/replacement systems as many times as you need to.

It'd be an excellent, and I mean -excellent- idea to ship them file updates as things go along. That way, new players get the latest updated files and old players have an option to DL from the point of purchase rather than overloading the S-E servers. Many games do this if there's bug fixes or the like for conventional non-MMO gaming, and it'd likely save the company pain and strain AND improve patch-day service as well.

Mirage

01-30-2013, 03:55 AM

I don't know, I can just copy my entire FFXI folder somewhere, delete the game, copy the files back, and re-create the registry keys and it will work just fine. I don't see why you can't have just one installer that goes through all of the expansion's data in sequence without having to do anything in between each one. All you'd have to do is set up the installer script to install the base game, then install the data for one expansion, then the next, etc. Then the added bonus of this is the game only shows up once in add/remove programs.

Yeah that's just a strange statement by SE. Even without manually changing registry settings, many players are able to just copy/paste an old installation directory over a vanilla FF11 installation (no expansions at all), then run a file check in POL Viewer and have that work perfectly. It seems like a pretty simple thing to do. I haven't actually used my expansion discs to reinstall FF11 in... at least 5 years. I just copy over the old files from my previous installation each time.

Mirage

01-30-2013, 04:11 AM

tell me why it is people think GiB is more accurate than GB? it isnt, the whole GiB thing is BS, its not even technical, it was added by someone who wanted to sound smarter, the correct technical terms are KB(KiloByte)/kb(kilobit) MB(MegaByte)/mb(megabit) GB(GigaByte)/gb(gigabit) TB(TeraByte)/tb(terabit) these new terms, they just add a letter, which is a waste of space, honestly adapting these new terms makes no sense at all
the technical term for GigaByte is NOT GiB it is GB

That is incorrect (but at the same time correct). You're most likely confused because Windows isn't being accurate with its units either. The correct term for 1000 MB is 1GB. However, the correct term for 1024 MB is 1 GiB. Of course, using GiB also implies that your 1024 MB are also MiB.

When a HDD manufacturer makes and sells a HDD, they report the size in GB. 200 GB is 200 000 000 000 bytes (they do this because they then can advertise their stuff using bigger numbers, and bigger numbers sell better). However, windows (and almost every other operating system) reports the size in GiB (even though Windows incorrectly calls this GB).

If you install this 200 GB HDD, windows will tell you it is 186(.2645) GB. However, Windows is lying to you. The HDD is not 186.2645 GB, because that would be ~186 564 500 000 bytes and the HDD is definitely 200 000 000 000 bytes. The HDD is however 186 GiB, because 186 GiB is 200 000 000 000 bytes.

Operating systems operate with 1024 bytes per kB, 1024 kB per MB, and so on. The SI prefix "kilo" does however not mean 1024, it means 1000. Therefore, because the term "kilo" already signifies a different value, you can't re-use it to signify a different value, hence the term "kibi" (kilo-binary) came into being. This unit is abbreviated as "ki". The same applies for mega-binary and giga-binary.

Kilo means 1000, Kibi means 1024. Kilo cannot both mean 1000 and 1024. This only opens for a lot more misunderstandings, as can be clearly seen in Windows, where they mean both, and you constantly need to use context to figure out how large a number is. With the "i" units, you always know how large values are without needing to spend time on determining the context.

-edit- Fixed typos.

That being said, I don't always follow this myself, for example if I talk to less computer literate people, who's got enough to think about anyway, or in oral communication where the context is obvious. Also, old habits die hard.

Trumpy

01-30-2013, 06:16 AM

to print discs might be cheaper than paying for bits of download, but how much does it cost in shipping the discs all over the world that uses them? or whatever other things they have to pay for to get them into the hands of the consumers?

oliveira

01-30-2013, 11:34 AM

Which brings up an interesting question: do you know if one can mix and match JP and NA discs on the same PS2/3 without having to muck about with hacks and/or other such third-party tools? :D Or are you just playing with straight JP hardware and software?
First, sorry for the late reply.

DNAS is there to prevent illegal copying and tampering. So no you can't do that with the PS2. You would need to hack the game a lot and it's boot/loader program is heavily encrypted using SONY voodoo stuff. Installing Adoulin from JP discs on a US PS2 or PS3 simply won't happen. You need to authenticate with the DNAS server every time you start FFXI.

wildsprite

01-31-2013, 01:33 AM

what it costs to ship the PC version should be irrelevant since they will be shipping xb360 copies of both the collection and the expansion anyway,

I think at the very least bit they should make special ordering physical copies of the collection for Windows for those that want them

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

01-31-2013, 02:53 AM

what it costs to ship the PC version should be irrelevant since they will be shipping xb360 copies of both the collection and the expansion anyway

Not in all markets; Japan won't get a "Collection" disc for either the PlayStation 2 or the Xbox 360 (but apparently will get a "Collection" DVD for PC, for a higher price).

Different regions are getting different things differently, probably thanks to economic calculations that involve an Ouija board.

wildsprite

01-31-2013, 03:23 AM

Not in all markets; Japan won't get a "Collection" disc for either the PlayStation 2 or the Xbox 360 (but apparently will get a "Collection" DVD for PC, for a higher price).

Different regions are getting different things differently, probably thanks to economic calculations that involve an Ouija board.

a Ouija board eh? I thought they were rolling 6 sided die for that :P

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

01-31-2013, 07:25 AM

a Ouija board eh? I thought they were rolling 6 sided die for that :P

No no, dice are only involved in "BALANCE!!1!!" decisions, with d6 for /ja and d20 for /ma. Anything involving real money goes to the Ouija board, supplemented by a Magic 8 Ball if credit cards are involved.

wildsprite

01-31-2013, 07:36 AM

No no, dice are only involved in "BALANCE!!1!!" decisions, with d6 for /ja and d20 for /ma. Anything involving real money goes to the Ouija board, supplemented by a Magic 8 Ball if credit cards are involved.

oh so that's what it is ~snickers~ now I'm picturing a bunch of people in a room with what looks like D&D papers and die figuring out the balance of things

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

01-31-2013, 08:22 AM

now I'm picturing a bunch of people in a room with what looks like D&D papers and die figuring out the balance of things

Oh, they wish it was D&D record sheets. No, that room is papered over with spreadsheets and PowerPoints; a witches' coven the likes of which not even Jack T. Chick could imagine.

They do still wear robes, carry staves, and chant in faux Latin, though.

EDIT:

Little-known fact: "One-Winged Angel" is actually just a recording of a meeting of S-E execs.

Powder

01-31-2013, 11:10 PM

Y'all are wearing my old brain out. Such high intellect in this game. I get lost in all this long winded discussion. What I am wondering and my first reaction is why is this expansion so expensive? I find it a bit much for an expansion. Isn't anyone else bothered by the price?

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

01-31-2013, 11:22 PM

What I am wondering and my first reaction is why is this expansion so expensive?

Because it's new. Ultimate Collection Abyssea Edition is only $10 simply because it's several years old now. All the prior expansions were about $30 each when they were first released, and dropped in price as time went on.

If you're bothered by the $30 price tag, wait a year and check the price again.

As for me, I take the $30 price as a sign that there's $30 worth of stuff in there, which is a good thing at this point.

Powder

01-31-2013, 11:29 PM

Because it's new. Ultimate Collection Abyssea Edition is only $10 simply because it's several years old now. All the prior expansions were about $30 each when they were first released, and dropped in price as time went on.

If you're bothered by the $30 price tag, wait a year and check the price again.

As for me, I take the $30 price as a sign that there's $30 worth of stuff in there, which is a good thing at this point.

Abyssea from the beginning was never $30.00 it was a typical expansion price of $9.99. I came right after Whitegate expansion so I don't know what they charged when it came out. I was just shocked when I went to the page and got to the bottom and saw that price.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

01-31-2013, 11:34 PM

Abyssea from the beginning was never $30.00 it was a typical expansion price of $9.99.

First off, the Abyssea stuff was "add-ons," not "expansion packs." A Crystalline Prophecy, A Moogle Kupo d'Etat, A Shantotto Ascension, Visions of Abyssea, Scars of Abyssea and Heroes of Abysssea are the six current add-ons, $10 each and deliverable through PlayOnline itself.

Rise of the Zilart, Chains of Promathia, Treasures of Aht Urhgan and Wings of the Goddess are the four current expansion packs, deliverable outside of PlayOnline (i.e. on a DVD or through an online store), and were generally $30 each at launch.

Secondly, that $10/each price tag means that the three Abyssea add-ons together were originally $30 total. In fact, it's still $30 total if you buy them separately instead of buying the Ultimate Collection Abyssea Edition.

Powder

01-31-2013, 11:42 PM

First off, the Abyssea stuff was "add-ons," not "expansion packs." A Crystalline Prophecy, A Moogle Kupo d'Etat, A Shantotto Ascension, Visions of Abyssea, Scars of Abyssea and Heroes of Abysssea are the six current add-ons, $10 each and deliverable through PlayOnline itself.

Rise of the Zilart, Chains of Promathia, Treasures of Aht Urhgan and Wings of the Goddess are the four current expansion packs, deliverable outside of PlayOnline (i.e. on a DVD or through an online store), and were generally $30 each at launch.

Secondly, that $10/each price tag means that the three Abyssea add-ons together were originally $30 total. In fact, it's still $30 total if you buy them separately instead of buying the Ultimate Collection Abyssea Edition.

OK! Thank you for clarifying this for me! <3 I see now. I came "after" all the expansions so I haven't seen that $30 before! This explains it for me. You are a doll for taking the time to explain this. While I have you here can I borrow $30? lmao just kidding. I have to throw some humor in this zzzzzz technical discussion. Thank you again!