Ludicrous game mechanics are ludicrous

[Kraggy]

Although I've been playing since early '05 it never ceases to amaze me how ludicrous some of XI's game mechanics are: of the many, the most direly bad IMO is Reputation. It is so totally typical of SE's "tell 'em nothing, make 'em use a fansite" philosophy which permeates the entire game.

This fact hit me again over the weekend when, for the umpteenth time in nearly 8 years I did the NIN scrolls in Norg. Think about how this works and then tell me with a straight face this is how enjoyable MMOs should be .. and don't for one second say "use the web" because that just proves my point for me ...

To do the six Norg quests for these scrolls you need to get rep. level 4. Of course, the game doesn't tell you this, nor remotely hint at it, at all. This goes for the entire rep. system, there's zero in-game indication what that little fanfare when you turn in a rep-bearing quest means.

Indeed, apart from the totally obscure rep-NPCs' responses should you get round to talking to them you would be forgiven for being totally ignorant the rep. system exists.

However, even should you realise this .. again, IN-GAME ONLY counts, fansites are a cop-out .. the fact that quests are rep-based is the next totally hidden feature.

Taking my Norg quests in particular, let's say to find the quest giver in Port Bastok and do the initial quest. The NPC does indeed tell you that it's repeatable and you may, for 350 gil, do so.

However, that's it, period. The fact that you're gaining Norg rep. isn't made known, even obliquely.

When you eventually get to Norg and speak to the NPCs that give these quests there is nothing at all that remotely hints that these guys have any quests to give you, far less any idea that the rep. you need for them largely needs to be done by 20+ repeats of a quest half the world away: yes, there are other quests, like the Yagudo necklaces which are equally hidden as to their outcome.

Thus, in order to get these quests you need to perform repeated actions to raise a stat you know nothing about for a number of times you have no idea about and even if you finally manage to stumble upon these quest NPCs when your rep. is somehow level 4 you'll have no idea why.

Can anyone, from SE or outside, seriously tell me, with a straight face this is how it should be and that, in the absence of the 'official guide', 'DAT mining' and other third-party efforts like the Wiki, the quest system in this game is at all playable?

The sources of all the Teleport scrolls, Warp 2 (Warp is likely to be stumbled upon since it only needs rep. 2 to get), the most required NIN Ichi scrolls, etc. are a huge mystery that only the Wiki reveals.

Is this how an RPG should be?

Seriously?

No, I don't want it 'dumbing down' to the level WOW has become, or indeed how FFXIV seems to be headed, but there's a happy medium between "silver platter" mode and the absolute requirement to ALT-TAB to a Wiki to know what's going on.

Oh yes, one final thought, what sort of asinine rep. system is it that allows me to become a HERO of much of the original gameworld by feeding 25 stacks of moss to a sheep in an obscure little fishing village in the middle of nowhere?

[Demon6324236]

Good points!

[Caketime]

Don't hate on the moss trading. It's either that or stealing all of the babies and poaching.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Is this how an RPG should be?Yes. From what you are getting at, it seems that you have very little experience in RPGS or even other games in general. Go play games that have compassess to show you the way or the ones that give you directions to where you need to go. Those games are over in a matter of hours. Start at point A, go to point B as instructed, game finished. They lose all replayability. Games should be like this and not handed to you ona silver platter. The point is, is that if oyu want to, someone else already did go through the same thing and has told other people of such. Even before teh hard information age we have now, there were stratagy guides for this kind of thing.
My first serious RPG was Crono Trigger. Aside from 5 or 6 things that had to do with the main story, you weren't told jack. You had to go out and figure out everything by yourself. This is how games should be. Things from one area affecting another without you even knowing about it. I.e. Things from the past changing the future and then you aren't able to take on said thing in the furture anymore. All of this is called effort, it's a dirty word I know. Back in '04 I never touched any online sources to play FFXI. I would say to people in the LS, "Hey, how do I X?" And guess what, there were people who knew, or knew people who knew. "Oh btw, you need fame for that."
"What's fame?"
Admittedly, perhaps there should have been some blurb when you go to somewhere like Norg from quest NPCs saying something like, "Who are you?" With increases like "Weren't you that guy?" or "Weren't you here before?" much like the fame NPCs change what they say. It would show that there might be something there later.
But the biggest point is, is that back in the day, you had to you know. Go places and talk to people.

[Fynlar]

Reputation/influence is a concept in many RPGs so I don't see any big problem with it being in this game.

However, I will agree that Norg in particular has few means of building rep that make sense and could have done with some simpler/clearer means of raising it. Technically, Yagudo necklaces are simple, but they aren't exactly obvious.

[Evandis]

Yes. From what you are getting at, it seems that you have very little experience in RPGS or even other games in general. Go play games that have compassess to show you the way or the ones that give you directions to where you need to go. Those games are over in a matter of hours. Start at point A, go to point B as instructed, game finished. They lose all replayability. Games should be like this and not handed to you ona silver platter. The point is, is that if oyu want to, someone else already did go through the same thing and has told other people of such. Even before teh hard information age we have now, there were stratagy guides for this kind of thing.
My first serious RPG was Crono Trigger. Aside from 5 or 6 things that had to do with the main story, you weren't told jack. You had to go out and figure out everything by yourself. This is how games should be. Things from one area affecting another without you even knowing about it. I.e. Things from the past changing the future and then you aren't able to take on said thing in the furture anymore. All of this is called effort, it's a dirty word I know. Back in '04 I never touched any online sources to play FFXI. I would say to people in the LS, "Hey, how do I X?" And guess what, there were people who knew, or knew people who knew. "Oh btw, you need fame for that."
"What's fame?"
Admittedly, perhaps there should have been some blurb when you go to somewhere like Norg from quest NPCs saying something like, "Who are you?" With increases like "Weren't you that guy?" or "Weren't you here before?" much like the fame NPCs change what they say. It would show that there might be something there later.
But the biggest point is, is that back in the day, you had to you know. Go places and talk to people.

Oh please get off your high horse and stop spouting this stupid silver platter crap. This is a game and when you look around at other MMOs, specifically the one that you are putting down indirectly, they have far more players. You know why? Because it's fun for more people than those who have no jobs or simple jobs that require no deduction skills. Many people go to work 5 days a week and solve complex issues and want to come home and enjoy a game, not a second job.

The real reason the game is so bland on information is because, as usual with SE, they want to force you to buy the strategy guide as well. And there was quite a large one sold for this in 03/04. This mixed with SEs apparent disdain for anything not Japanese is one of the major downfalls to this game, and the fact that 500K subscribers was the peak of it. This game seems to have been released outside of Japan begrudgingly, as a money making idea and not a true decision by that idiot Tanaka, and he is an idiot that can kill games with promise because of BS mentioned above.

Many MMO makers have found ways to make a game both fun and challenging without just adding 2 billion collect this and collect that items and quests. You say that those games have a short lifespan...please, WoW is smashing on MMOs with their subscription AND player loyalty rates and will have a much longer lifespan thanks to it.

WoW was too cartoony for me, but there are many things about FFXI that are frustrating, and downright insulting to those who want to play and enjoy a game. I don't want to see everyone walking around with Mythic, but maybe if there was some sort of logical hint and progression system with most of these quests and fame based scenarios, there would be many more new players who play and stay.

Also, the JP gaming community has gotten a lot more localized responses to their questions and hint dropping from SE. It's why when this game started in the NA in 2003, most of the information was gleaned by NA players who could read the JP sites.

[Elexia]

Oh please get off your high horse and stop spouting this stupid silver platter crap. This is a game and when you look around at other MMOs, specifically the one that you are putting down indirectly, they have far more players. You know why?

Commercials.

[Evandis]

Whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night.

[Elexia]

Whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night.

No really, commercials is the main reason many games have a lot of subs. Wizard 101 is far from an amazing game yet it has a ton of subs to it and guess what you see almost all day on certain family stations? Commercials for it, seems its just you that need to tell yourself something to sleep at night.

[Dragonlord]

These are great points, and there are many other parts of the game that should be revamped because they simply don't work with the end game heavy nature of the current game. When most people didn't have more than 1 level 75, the midgame timesink made sense. Now this isn't the current dev's fault, its mostly things long-forgotten many dev teams ago.

The reps have mentioned they're working on "playability improvements". If SoA is geared towards attracting a new audience towards the game, i believe the devs should push more of these small tweaks that make the game less chore and more fun in the crucial first few hours of playing. At current, there are many things that take hours to complete that have been implemented over the past 10 years that restrict newcomers from getting to the fun parts. Its no one thing, but the accumulation of all the parts.

[Glamdring]

um... everything IS handed to you even on XI on a silver platter. With the Wikis, and the other fan sites if you can't find information on a subject it's generally solely because you chose not to look for it. Ok, new content you might have to wait a weak or 2 for the players that are willing to write posts to get around to it, but it will be there. for most of the content it's simply a matter of connecting the dots and grinding it out, with the remainder being knowing how to play your job; and there are even guides for that. I honestly think the reason the devs don't comment much on content is the players are already doing it faster than they can crank it out.

[Freebytes]

I agree with Kraggy on this one. While reputation is fine and does not necessarily need to be fixed, I do have an issue with the hints given for quests. While we do not need a compass, there are quests that make absolutely no sense, and there is no way in the world you would have the information available to solve them without external sources.

These issues are more problematic when the quest description does not supply any clues either. Here is a good example of a quest with a decent clue: "The Library of Magic wants you to help retrieve its overdue library books. In this case, Hae Jakkya, that Mithra who runs the auction house in Windurst Woods, has checked out the book 'A Song of Love', but has failed to return it by the due date."

Here is one that is not so good: "The wind blew away the sailor's cap that Paytah was minding for his father. You fished it out of the sea, but now it is torn and tattered. If you could only find someone who can repair Paytah's father's cap..."

Now, without using the Wiki, tell me who you would talk to in order to repair the cap.

In addition, I prefer content that is simplistic and easy to learn and access. Abyssea makes it simple to figure out. If you are near mobs that drop an item, you can use that item to spawn a NM. In contrast to this, Salvage is a complete puzzle. While having some mysterious events is good, not everything should require you to go through so many complications. ZNMs, ENMs, Sky, Sea, Einherjar, Dynamis, Limbus, etc. They are all confusing and require a certain amount of time to understand. Feathers, stones, cards, chips, plates, etc. Whereas, in the main world, none of this matters. You simply travel from place to place killing things, and it works. You get some triggers and fight some creatures. Very simple. Everything should be so simple.

In addition, I would like to see some otherwise useless items put to use. Why have items in the game that are only ever used once in a decade? Certain crafted items can be brought back to life if they were simply used to spawn creatures or as replacements for other items to spawn creatures. Crafted spawn items were common in the past (such as for Hakutaku and Shen), and I am not saying that this mechanic should be revived. Instead, perhaps some of the items that are never used for anything anymore should be available as replaceable items for crafting. So, instead of needing a Snow God Core, perhaps people could craft one instead. Instead of needing a Winterstone, existing rare materials could be used instead.

Ice Crystal + Cashmere Cloth + Ice Cluster = Winterstone

Fire Crystal + Molybdenum Ore + Fire Cluster = Summerstone

Those are just examples. It could also bring some old, fun HNMs to life.

[Prrsha]

Although I've been playing since early '05 it never ceases to amaze me how ludicrous some of XI's game mechanics are: of the many, the most direly bad IMO is Reputation. It is so totally typical of SE's "tell 'em nothing, make 'em use a fansite" philosophy which permeates the entire game.

This fact hit me again over the weekend when, for the umpteenth time in nearly 8 years I did the NIN scrolls in Norg. Think about how this works and then tell me with a straight face this is how enjoyable MMOs should be .. and don't for one second say "use the web" because that just proves my point for me ...

To do the six Norg quests for these scrolls you need to get rep. level 4. Of course, the game doesn't tell you this, nor remotely hint at it, at all. This goes for the entire rep. system, there's zero in-game indication what that little fanfare when you turn in a rep-bearing quest means.

Indeed, apart from the totally obscure rep-NPCs' responses should you get round to talking to them you would be forgiven for being totally ignorant the rep. system exists.

However, even should you realise this .. again, IN-GAME ONLY counts, fansites are a cop-out .. the fact that quests are rep-based is the next totally hidden feature.

Taking my Norg quests in particular, let's say to find the quest giver in Port Bastok and do the initial quest. The NPC does indeed tell you that it's repeatable and you may, for 350 gil, do so.

However, that's it, period. The fact that you're gaining Norg rep. isn't made known, even obliquely.

When you eventually get to Norg and speak to the NPCs that give these quests there is nothing at all that remotely hints that these guys have any quests to give you, far less any idea that the rep. you need for them largely needs to be done by 20+ repeats of a quest half the world away: yes, there are other quests, like the Yagudo necklaces which are equally hidden as to their outcome.

Thus, in order to get these quests you need to perform repeated actions to raise a stat you know nothing about for a number of times you have no idea about and even if you finally manage to stumble upon these quest NPCs when your rep. is somehow level 4 you'll have no idea why.

Can anyone, from SE or outside, seriously tell me, with a straight face this is how it should be and that, in the absence of the 'official guide', 'DAT mining' and other third-party efforts like the Wiki, the quest system in this game is at all playable?

The sources of all the Teleport scrolls, Warp 2 (Warp is likely to be stumbled upon since it only needs rep. 2 to get), the most required NIN Ichi scrolls, etc. are a huge mystery that only the Wiki reveals.

Is this how an RPG should be?

Seriously?

No, I don't want it 'dumbing down' to the level WOW has become, or indeed how FFXIV seems to be headed, but there's a happy medium between "silver platter" mode and the absolute requirement to ALT-TAB to a Wiki to know what's going on.

Oh yes, one final thought, what sort of asinine rep. system is it that allows me to become a HERO of much of the original gameworld by feeding 25 stacks of moss to a sheep in an obscure little fishing village in the middle of nowhere?

In 03 and 04, I just kept speaking to the NPCs every month RL time or so. I started to notice when I finished one quest, another one would open up and so on. It's was the same way with any RPG at the time like Baldur's Gate for example or Fallout. In all of those games (heck even pokemon) speaking to an NPC more then once over a given period of time would result in more flagged quests.

However... I do agree with one point that is made. The clues to finding out on how to complete the quest (like the Stray Mary one) were very lacking. Other RPGs made it more clear.

Oh and the moss comment. The moss quest is there for the lazy people who don't want to bother with non-repeatable quests for fame or for people who don't like to speak to NPCs. It's your silver platter so to speak.

[Xerius]

Personally, I love the idea of fame. Although, I do wish that there were easier ways of checking your fame although for a game that's been running for this long you don't really need to check a fansite simply asking your LS or even /sh in Jeuno should do the trick.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

um... everything IS handed to you even on XI on a silver platter (by) the Wikis, and the other fan sites

So the playerbase handed themselves something "on a silver platter?"

That's not how that idiom works.

[Vicious]

Some things are obtuse to the point of frustration, yes. However, this is a pretty bad example; the playerbase figured out how quests and reputation were linked pretty quickly, and it's been common knowledge ever since. Things like this are meant to facilitate communication between players, which is pretty much the entire point of the game.

[Arcon]

This is the same with almost every RPG, online or offline. Some points are valid, and a middle ground on certain things would certainly be nice. Personally, I'd like to see more quest progression that just repetition. As someone said, what's heroic about trading insane quantities of moss or corn to a sheep? To be regarded a hero, you should have to complete almost every quest the city/region has to offer.

However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making the acquiring of this information community-dependent or communication-dependant. Communication and teamwork has always been a major part of this game (as it is of any MMORPG), and I have never, ever, felt this was a drawback or something that stopped me from playing it. Community sites do exist, wikis do exist, the infrastructure is there, and even without those sites you could still always ask LS members and pretty much always get a response. And even if not, what would be so bad about it? That you may have to wait a few days after the release until someone figures out how it works properly?

Compasses are fine and I don't mind them, but the fame concept itself is perfectly reasonable, quests becoming available after a certain level is also perfectly fine. Why would someone tell a random stranger about a dragon that needs slaying? On the other hand, a hero may indeed be asked about something like that. Assuming that fame/reputation exists is only natural and without ever having heard of the concept or played any MMORPGs before, I inherently assumed that something like that was going on, because it feels natural and makes sense.

I don't think that should be removed at all, even fame indicators can be removed for all I care, it's much more immersive to figure it out on your own, as you're progressing through the game. However, they should rework it so fame isn't a generic quest reward, but instead make less of it required, and make repeatable quests only give fame once. That way people actually need to finish more different quests, and tougher quests after a while, which is what justifies your standing as a local hero.

[Prrsha]

I don't think that should be removed at all, even fame indicators can be removed for all I care, it's much more immersive to figure it out on your own, as you're progressing through the game. However, they should rework it so fame isn't a generic quest reward, but instead make less of it required, and make repeatable quests only give fame once. That way people actually need to finish more different quests, and tougher quests after a while, which is what justifies your standing as a local hero.

I'd have to agree with you there. Currently the only difference between non repeatable quests and repeatable ones, is the amount of fame rewarded. Some quests need to be completed first before another one is done (as in a quest chain) but there needs to be more of a link to generic quests of old and worthwhile loot. NIN/BLM/WHM scrolls are an example of something that can only be obtained by a quest. I wish there was more of that in FFXI nowadays. Most things rewarded by old quests are far more easy to obtain on the AH. EXP rewards for non repeatable quests is something I would like to see too... It would help to immerse more players into FFXI's storyline.

[Alhanelem]

Yes. From what you are getting at, it seems that you have very little experience in RPGS or even other games in general. Go play games that have compassess to show you the way or the ones that give you directions to where you need to go. Those games are over in a matter of hours. Start at point A, go to point B as instructed, game finished. They lose all replayability. Games should be like this and not handed to you ona silver platter. The point is, is that if oyu want to, someone else already did go through the same thing and has told other people of such. Even before teh hard information age we have now, there were stratagy guides for this kind of thing.
My first serious RPG was Crono Trigger. Aside from 5 or 6 things that had to do with the main story, you weren't told jack. You had to go out and figure out everything by yourself. This is how games should be. Things from one area affecting another without you even knowing about it. I.e. Things from the past changing the future and then you aren't able to take on said thing in the furture anymore. All of this is called effort, it's a dirty word I know. Back in '04 I never touched any online sources to play FFXI. I would say to people in the LS, "Hey, how do I X?" And guess what, there were people who knew, or knew people who knew. "Oh btw, you need fame for that."
"What's fame?"
Admittedly, perhaps there should have been some blurb when you go to somewhere like Norg from quest NPCs saying something like, "Who are you?" With increases like "Weren't you that guy?" or "Weren't you here before?" much like the fame NPCs change what they say. It would show that there might be something there later.
But the biggest point is, is that back in the day, you had to you know. Go places and talk to people.
I'll just say this: There is a fine line between holding a player's hands the whole way and making something cryptic but solveable. You can have information in a game (e.g., information that any real person could and would reasonably give if they were the NPC) that needs thought in order to make use of, without telling the player every single little thing ("hand holding")

For the example of reuptation- There is nothing anywhere in the game that even hints that there might be some secret number you need to jack up before an NPC will talk to you. I think SE figured that people would simply earn rep over time and people would discover more NPCs would give them stuff to do, but even if you do manage to figure out there's some kind of rep system, there's nothing to tell you exactly when it's changing (except a sound effect that just sounds like "yay you beat the quest") or that there's different rep for different places, or that NPCs in totally unrelated places can increase your rep somewhere else.

The OP isn't suggesting that we add flashing signs every step of the way, but simply that important game systems aren't completely hidden from view and not able to be determined by the average player without consulting a guide on a website.

If you can't, WITH REASONABLE EFFORT, decipher how to solve a quest or game mechanic, then not enough information is being given.

Simple fix for reputaiton: When you complete a quest, have it display a message: "Your reputation with <insert NPC, place, or organization here> has increased." It doesn't have to say how much, or explicitly what it does- just letting the player know it exists and that they made it go up should be plenty enough information.

[Prrsha]

What about the NPCs that tell you your current fame? If a person spoke to every NPC in the town, you are bound to come across him. It's how I figured it out when all the guides that existed were in Japanese.

[Alhanelem]

What about the NPCs that tell you your current fame? If a person spoke to every NPC in the town, you are bound to come across him. It's how I figured it out when all the guides that existed were in Japanese.
It's really cryptic, and there's no indication that what he's telling you actually has any meaning. It's about the only clue the game offers about reputation, but most people won't know to talk to these NPCs until they find out from another person or a guide that these guys are fame checkers.

[Windblade]

The game is so large with so many parallel quests going on that just using the game by itself as a way to know what to do and where to go seems to be virtually impossible. I have to read a guide on nearly every quest or mission I do, and I don't really mind doing that. My goal is to experience the story and complete the quest, not bump around in the dark wondering if I'll ever get to the next step of the quest.

[Carth]

SE has gotten better with this over time, but in the beginning it was really terrible, particularly with the Zilart mission line ala ZM11 where you have to find the "Mithra named Mary or Maroo", who was on the other side of the country.

As for the topic at hand, I'll have to agree, but this is also part of a bigger issue with FFXI as a whole, in the case that it's a fairly static world with no sweeping changes in it's environment. What this means is reputation is therefore hidden within quest lines and repeatable quests. Norg is the biggest fault of this, and I believe the reason for this is to avoid RMT from accessing easy money.

[Phogg]

This fact hit me again over the weekend when, for the umpteenth time in nearly 8 years I did the NIN scrolls in Norg. Think about how this works and then tell me with a straight face this is how enjoyable MMOs should be ..

Sounds like you are just mad that repeating something you have already done is tedious. Maybe find something else to do.

[Terrigenesis]

QQ some more

[Rustic]

Eh, I can understand. We're actually luckier than some MMORPGs.

Take EverQuest back in the day. Much the same boat- quests were figured out through the brute force effort of the playerbase. Throw everything at the wall until something stuck, repeat with next step.

Far as I know, FFXI is better coded in that some quests don't literally lead nowhere. This doesn't stop them from being very well hidden at times, but thanks to various dataminers and the like, we tend not to get stuck spinning our wheels. That doesn't mean it's less intuitive than it could be. A little nod at the beginning about how (insert fame NPC) is good to see about how your name is spreading, and a tweak to the fame-checker dialogue to give folks an option about "why fame is good for you" would be a nice quality-of-life change.

[Freebytes]

One of the problems with the lack of guidance and reasonable information as suggested by Windblade in his response also leads to another issue: You will sometimes completely forget the storyline of the quest or even where you are in a quest. You will talk to an NPC randomly, and he will say, "Great, thank you for bring me this!" This could literally be years later, and you have no idea why the NPC said this to you because the difference in time is so vast. In every other FF game that has existed, I talked to every NPC I saw. Every single one. In FFXI, it is better to avoid talking to an NPC unless you know the quest you will be undertaking because there is no telling when you will come back to it unless you specifically chose to start it on purpose.

Arcon had a good point about being a hero instead of doing repetitive quests. There should be certain quests you must accomplish to break the limit on the reputation. That way, there would be some variation in the repetitive cabbage deliveries.

[SNK]

Someone's never played some old school Dragon Quest.

[Rezeak]

Can anyone, from SE or outside, seriously tell me, with a straight face this is how it should be and that, in the absence of the 'official guide', 'DAT mining' and other third-party efforts like the Wiki, the quest system in this game is at all playable?

By asking other people in your linkshell.

Back in the day when FFXI was new and fresh quests like this added alot to the game in my opinion for example the NIN quest, alot of people worked that out by word of mouth rather than wiki(cause it didn't exsist) or some guide and because of this linkshells and friends list were essential. I would go on but point is when leveling was the main content, quests like this weren't to bad.

Of course, now I'm sure this costs FFXI money wise with newer players or even returning players that lost there account.Who do and will quit because it can take years to catch up to the current new content and while the old content was enjoyable when 1000s of people did it, it is now isolated which is something a MMO should avoid like the plague.

While it doesn't effect me too much for new players i'd...

Remove all but maat and 95->99 Limit quests
You can level up fame with merits.
Add new set of BCs that drop all the old quest spells.
Revamp the AF set to 95 versions (perle level stats)
Lastly you can buy level 75(with all skills caped at 75) with say 100 merits

That way newer players only need to be isolated once when getting to 99 then they can use there exsisting job to get jobs to 75 rdy for abyssea and acully be useful there.

(Btw just what i'd like i know too many people wouldn't like that anyway)

Either way, without new players FFXI is eventually doomed lol

[Alhanelem]

By asking other people in your linkshell.Not everybody had a linkshell and not every person you ran into was helpful. And somebody had to be the first person to figure these things out. original FFXI depended on sheer numbers to produce some fool stumbling upon the solution then sharing it with others. There were a lot of quests in the game that had basically no clues at all- For a long time there were many quests and missions where an NPC would give you a task but not even give you a hint to where you should go to accomplish it. In a few cases an obscure NPC or object nobody would think to talk to gives you a hint. As I said before, there is a fine line between handholding and giving out reasonable information to gently nudge the player in the right direction without spelling everything out as "Go here. Get this. Go there. Kill that. Come back to me" in flashing signs that appear on the screen as you play.

[Arcon]

There was no one person to figure everything out, everyone helped figuring it out. One person got the quest, told someone else about it. That person tried, but noticed they couldn't get it. And that's how you realized there was some requirement for it. Did the other person have higher rank? Higher level? Or what? And after time, these things figured themselves out.

And no one needs to have this done the second it comes out. There's nothing from with everyone figuring it out after a month, and then being able to do the quest.

[Alhanelem]

Still, why anyone finds that desireable is beyond me. I don't like handholding any more than anyone else here. But there is a point where things become too cryptic. It should be *reasonably possible* to solve any quest without having to look up a guide or shout at passerby until someone who knows spurts the answer. This doesn't mean you shouldn't have to think, or look around, but there have been several quests in XI's history where no clues or hints whatsoever existed. clues and hints not in plain sight is not handholding and is perfectly acceptable. This is a massively multiplayer game. For me, the multiplayer part is grouping up to do battle, not shouting questions about a quest you can't figure out til someone tells you the answer- basically anything that doesn't actually need other people and could just as easily be solved by looking up a guide.

[Arcon]

Of course, and I don't disagree that quests should be less cryptic themselves. But, for example, fame and people not mentioning quests until you're recognizable and known to the people of the city to a certain degree is perfectly fine. The Mithra example mentioned before was horrible and stuff like that shouldn't exist. But "I lost an item in that dungeon to an Orc, please retrieve it" without mentioning any specifics is perfectly fine, because searching for it is part of the quest. As long as a player has the general idea what they should do and where they should head it's reasonable and doesn't need adjusting.

[Ethalio]

Of course, and I don't disagree that quests should be less cryptic themselves. But, for example, fame and people not mentioning quests until you're recognizable and known to the people of the city to a certain degree is perfectly fine. The Mithra example mentioned before was horrible and stuff like that shouldn't exist. But "I lost an item in that dungeon to an Orc, please retrieve it" without mentioning any specifics is perfectly fine, because searching for it is part of the quest. As long as a player has the general idea what they should do and where they should head it's reasonable and doesn't need adjusting.

100% agree!



I don't want npcs to have question or exclamation marks above their heads and a window opens on the left side of the screen with hundred lines of text; you just have to scroll down, click 'accept' and follow the arrow on your map that tells you where to go and a questlog that reads X/50 monster Y.
This pattern is used in all other MMORPGs I played beside FFXI.

[Waldrich]

Jesus Christ... you all should try to do Chains of Promathia 5-3 Missions w/o any hint at all.

Without wikia or bgwikia I can see a player spending 2 years to get access to all events... mainly old "lol"events.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Can anyone, from SE or outside, seriously tell me, with a straight face this is how it should be and that, in the absence of (...) third-party efforts like the Wiki, the quest system in this game is at all playable?

By asking other people in your linkshell.

Your linkshell is a "third party."

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

I don't want npcs to have question or exclamation marks above their heads

Why not? It breaks the immersion of having NPCs stand there doing nothing all day, being little more than pieces of furniture?

It stands to reason that NPCs with a task that needs completing would do something to actively seek an adventurer to do it, and take some sort of measure to initiate contact. If not that particular mechanic, then at least something like a jobs board.


follow the arrow on your map that tells you where to go

If you have a map, and the NPC knows exactly where on the map you need to go (which is often the case), why not let them mark your map for you? The mechanic is already present in the game (or have all forgotten how our Adventurer Coupons worked), just woefully underused.

[Merton9999]

I don't really care that NPCs don't tell you everything, or that you have to spend time repeating a task. It's just the mundane, banal tone of the tasks that bother me.

I remember standing in line as a low level in 2004 to do Bubbly Bernie for Bastok fame and gil. In LINE . . . for BUBBLY BERNIE. One of the people in front of me started to run back to Bastok and said "wtf, why am I standing in line so I can trade a fish to a bush to fight a crab? This game sucks!"

But then I just kept repeating garbage like that. Like most of this game, the only thing that made that tolerable was a network of other players in the same boat bitching and joking about it.

It's not that different than the rest of the game though - using sheep and frogs as BST pets and fighting household pets endlessly to gain levels. I don't know if it's a Japanese Pokemon obsession or what, but it's the dumbest thing about the FFXI world to me. I had to play 6 months before I finally fought something I thought looked epic.

[Caketime]

I for one enjoy the Pokemans aspect of the game, BST rules. Needs a Butterfly jug, then I'll be happy with it forever.

Rep grinding is still as boring today as it was years ago, except now it's no big deal to drop some gil on a bunch of stacks of silk threads or hare meat or whatever. It's an aging system that serves no real purpose anymore other than to slow us down for a bit, and is at best just a temporary timesink. If gaining reputation weren't such a boring task by default I think players would be less apt to trade corn to some random dude instead of becoming the bogeyman/bad news bear. I just did the required quests to finish up Windy rank missions, it was the most annoying 2 days of running in circles and trading pointless items I've ever experienced with this game. I should have just traded corn to that guy.

[Alhanelem]

"I lost an item in that dungeon to an Orc, please retrieve it""That dungeon" is fine, but too many quests in the early parts of the game were more like "I lost an item go get it." If they said "I lost an item in <place>, go find it," that's fine because you have at least a vague idea of its whereabouts without a big flashing arrow sending you straight to it.

[Zohnax]

I think people are forgetting just how old FFXI is, so holding it other MMO standards of today with the Glowing Arrows and Bubbles above NPCs heads and the "please tell me how to beat the game" non-sense is pretty retarded, then even instituting these standards by having to go back for every single quest would require time and space(which remaining PS2 users do not have). And of course, it is easy to look back on reputation quests as tedious meaningless tasks now, but at the time and for awhile it was part of the journey. You used to not be able to get to max level in a day or two, remember? But seriously, complaining about Reputation building and where quests are? Stop filling these forums with useless banter and just go to ffxiclopedia or bgwiki and look up what you need to know, if you cannot figure it out yourself.

[Alhanelem]

We understand that- FFXI is one extreme and many of today's MMOs are the other extreme. Here's wishing somebody would strike a balance. Newer FFXI content has done a better job of that.

[Caketime]

We understand that- FFXI is one extreme and many of today's MMOs are the other extreme. Here's wishing somebody would strike a balance. Newer FFXI content has done a better job of that.

Adding to this, here's wishing for some story content that isn't riddled with obvious timesink intermission quests. I realize writing and scripting takes time, but I would much rather the story content be enjoyable as well as the battle content and not be obvious filler between BC battles for the inevitable piece of shiny at the end. Actually, take the shiny and place it in your bum, I just want a good story.

[Jaall]

Adding to this, here's wishing for some story content that isn't riddled with obvious timesink intermission quests. I realize writing and scripting takes time, but I would much rather the story content be enjoyable as well as the battle content and not be obvious filler between BC battles for the inevitable piece of shiny at the end. Actually, take the shiny and place it in your bum, I just want a good story.

Yes! Bring back decent story lines. Decent stories = epic battles, just look at CoP for e.g.. Promathia - Such an epic BC generally considered one of the best mission fights in the game compared to Shinryu. In theory Shinryu should have been an equally epic battle but because there was no decent script to Abyssea, people just enter, brew, claim rewards. There's nothing epic about that. Please bring back the stories that final fantasy is so famous for, and that keep people hooked.

[Toadie-Odie]

In 03 and 04, I just kept speaking to the NPCs every month RL time or so. I started to notice when I finished one quest, another one would open up and so on. It's was the same way with any RPG at the time like Baldur's Gate for example or Fallout. In all of those games (heck even pokemon) speaking to an NPC more then once over a given period of time would result in more flagged quests.

However... I do agree with one point that is made. The clues to finding out on how to complete the quest (like the Stray Mary one) were very lacking. Other RPGs made it more clear.

Oh and the moss comment. The moss quest is there for the lazy people who don't want to bother with non-repeatable quests for fame or for people who don't like to speak to NPCs. It's your silver platter so to speak.

I will add to this about flagging quests. I've found over the years that any time you flag a quest you can often times speak to nearby npcs for additional information.

I try hard to help out over at http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/ in keeping guides and information current and accurate.
To the OP:

SE didn't create that website or any of the others like it. It was created by people like me and so many others that have written guides, tested abilities, crunched numbers, etc. We didn't have to share that knowledge, but we chose to share it anyway, and we are able to do it because the information is there in the game already. Granted it may not be fully spelled out but it is there for players to piece together and utilize.

Reading your post makes me feel like you are tearing down a community that grew out of a desire to understand, puzzle out, and share information for those that are unable or unwilling to do the same. I feel it's a very good sign that an online game can foster such a community and shouldn't be put down for existing.

[Toadie-Odie]

If you have a map, and the NPC knows exactly where on the map you need to go (which is often the case), why not let them mark your map for you? The mechanic is already present in the game (or have all forgotten how our Adventurer Coupons worked), just woefully underused.

I 100% agree with this. You still have to do the leg work and all but if the NPC has the info to start with, then the NPC should give it when the quest is flagged.