The end of PS2 shipments in Japan.

[Sarick]

Sony will no longer ship the PlayStation 2 to Japanese retailers, according to Famitsu. At over 150 million units sold worldwide since its launch in Japan on March 4th, 2000, the PS2 is the most popular home console of all time by some distance, and has demonstrated impressive staying power. It still sees occasional new software releases in Japan, despite the fact that its successor, the PlayStation 3, was released back in 2006, and a fourth home system from Sony is expected to make an appearance in 2013. There's no word on whether Sony plans to stop sales in other regions around the world, but it's clear that this marks the beginning of the end for what is arguably the video game world's most venerable console.


Playstation 2 stops shipping in Japan (http://www.theverge.com/2012/12/28/3810794/playstation-2-stops-shipping-in-japan)

What dos this mean for FFXI, What do you think about this announcement? Will it affect the FFXI versions? If it's no longer supported by Sony will SE follow suit?

[Arcon]

If it's no longer supported by Sony will SE follow suit?

I sure hope so. It was only a matter of time anyway. Unfortunately, this in itself does not mean that PS2 support will be dropped yet. Fortunately, dropping (partial) PS2 support in Europe indicates that SE are considering it.

[Alhanelem]

I didn't know it was still being sold anywhere at all. I have no idea why anyone including SE is still willing to support it.

Then again, people made software for the dreamcast long after its demise. ..

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Then again, people made software for the dreamcast long after its demise. ..They still do.

[Sarick]

I knew Tsukino_Kaji would post something LOL. That Sig is plastered in the topic now.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

It's no surprise, I was amazed thought that sony has already set such a "hard" release date for their next system.

[Teraniku]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enSYlCEz5VI

[Prrsha]

I didn't know it was still being sold anywhere at all. I have no idea why anyone including SE is still willing to support it.

SE has said in the past that there are far more PS2 owners in Japan then in the states... so they didn't see any profit in making the expansion for NA PS2. It sucks for the PS2 owners here, but they do have a business to run.

Another factor was that Japanese could easily get HDD replacements in Japan so SE continued to support the console. The Japanese economy is hurting worse then the US's right now atm as well and as a result, many gamers there don't have enough money for a PC (they are really pricey there for some reason). Does this mean they will drop support for the Japanese PS2 playerbase soon after the expansion? I hope not. It would drive off a sizeable chunk of the game population. Already JPs are leaving because they don't even have enough cash to pay for the annual monthly fee for the game. I see comments like this frequently in the Japanese forums.

On another note: Is there any link to this news and the reason why the expansion is due to come out so soon?

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

The end of PS2 hardware doesn't necessarily mean the end of the PS2 as a platform

Consider the Vana'diel Collection 2008 for the PS2. It was sold outside Japan even though they stopped selling PS2 HDDs in those markets years before, simply because the game could be played on the PlayStation 3 models that were on store shelves at the time.

Scuttlebutt has Sony debuting the PlayStation 3's successor next summer, which probably means selling it by the end of 2013. If it ends up being backwards-compatible with the PS2, I'd expect S-E to keep supporting the PS2 version of FFXI simply because of that.

[Babekeke]

A JP friend of mine has had to get his PS2 repaired because it kept crashing. The problems have since started up again and he says it's the end of PS2 for him. He asked whether he needs a powerful PC to play FFXI on as that was his next move. Just goes to show that PCs obviously just don't have the same following over there. Probably because it's dominated by Microsoft, but idk.

Maybe all we need to do is make a thread in the JP forums explaining how low-spec a PC you can have to use FFXI on, and they might all jump ship XD

[Alhanelem]

A JP friend of mine has had to get his PS2 repaired because it kept crashing. The problems have since started up again and he says it's the end of PS2 for him. He asked whether he needs a powerful PC to play FFXI on as that was his next move. Just goes to show that PCs obviously just don't have the same following over there. Probably because it's dominated by Microsoft, but idk.

Maybe all we need to do is make a thread in the JP forums explaining how low-spec a PC you can have to use FFXI on, and they might all jump ship XD
Part of it is space. the average Japanese dwelling is smaller than the US in terms of space, and this is why mobile took off so much faster and sooner there than here- making a PC more of an extra extravagance than an instrumental component of a household like it is in the US.

You could probably sell them a netbook/ultrabook or a windows-running tablet PC a lot more easily.

[Sarick]

Part of it is space. the average Japanese dwelling is smaller than the US in terms of space, and this is why mobile took off so much faster and sooner there than here- making a PC more of an extra extravagance than an instrumental component of a household like it is in the US.

You could probably sell them a netbook/ultrabook or a windows-running tablet PC a lot more easily.

The FFXI systems I use are smaller then my ps2s it's about as big as a small book. In fat it's about an inch taller then two PS3 boxes stacked together. These little computers run on less then 20 watts.

I highly doubt these would use a lot of space. I'm sure there is something small out there that would run FFXI well.

[Alhanelem]

New Problems: Mana capping at 600m between waves- When this happens is there a way to store the mana into cubes or do you have to be at the shop to do that? I was just doing upgrades to try and minimize capping.I've never met a PC that used less than 20 watts when idle, much less under load.

[Rustic]

Oddly enough, the death of the PS2 might be the very thing that revives FFXI. It's the biggest limiter on improving the game, and it has been for half a decade or more. My girlfriend easily runs FFXI on a modern gamer-friendly laptop at this point.

Having the next expansion be Xbox/PC only and allowing the devs to build content/graphics on a platform that doesn't have to kowtow to year 2000 standards? Sanity at last.

[Camiie]

But the next expansion isn't 360/PC only, unless you're talking about whatever comes after Adoulin.

[Arcon]

But the next expansion isn't 360/PC only, unless you're talking about whatever comes after Adoulin.

It is outside of Japan, unless they changed their minds again?

[Camiie]

It is outside of Japan, unless they changed their minds again?

My point is if they're keeping PS2 support in one region (especially Japan) then they're keeping PS2 limitations in all regions.

[Sarick]

I've never met a PC that used less than 20 watts when idle, much less under load.

The Laptop I'm typing with now, + those 2 net boxes, a 32 inch LG LCD, 2 Ps2's on standby, a wii on standby, a trendnet 8 port 10/100/1000 unmanaged desktop switch, ps3 in standby, HP printer and a few other vampire devices. The to netboxes are loaded running with FFXI. the laptop I'm on now and the 32inch LCD. All are on running I'm cracking 89-115 (mostly under 100 watts). There are tricks to use less power it's called dimming your LCDs all the way down and running in a dimly lit room.

I turned of laptop wattage dropped to 60-65. Then turned off TV it dropped 3 watts to 59-69. Tured of printer no effect. So you might be right they could be a little over 30 watts. Having all these vampire devices plugged in you'd think there would be more draw.

The thing I'm trying to point out is people don't need a monster computer to run FFXI. Also, the power consumption of devices aren't as high as some are lead to believe. The actual requirements for power and function are usually not relevant to today's demands.

[Alhanelem]

There are tricks to use less power it's called dimming your LCDs all the way down and running in a dimly lit room.I don't care about the LCDs. I need at least a 450W PSU for my PC, the monitor isn't included in that.

All the devices you mentioned should be taking more watts than what you describe, which tells me something is wrong with whatever device you're measuring it with.

No, you don't need a monster PC to run XI by any means. Modern thin/light laptops will work, even. I was simply reacting to the unbelieveability of your statements on power consumption.

Weirdly enough though, the quotation in my last post wasn't even meant for this forum, much less that post. I'm suprised at nobody commented "what the hell is he quoting?"

[Sarick]

I don't care about the LCDs. I need at least a 450W PSU for my PC, the monitor isn't included in that.

All the devices you mentioned should be taking more watts than what you describe, which tells me something is wrong with whatever device you're measuring it with.

No, you don't need a monster PC to run XI by any means. Modern thin/light laptops will work, even. I was simply reacting to the unbelievability of your statements on power consumption.

Weirdly enough though, the quotation in my last post wasn't even meant for this forum, much less that post. I'm suprised at nobody commented "what the hell is he quoting?"

Quoting something stupid that doesn't exist to respond to something that was really said makes no sense. I actually read the post and noticed that but didn't say anything. The comment was obviously directed at me. The reason I never said anything is because this happens a lot on review sites where reviews are given that seem out of place. An example is a review for shampoo that says "I hated the product the motor burned out within seconds after I turned it on!"

Standby devices like the PS2 don't consume much power. Having multiple wattage testing meters indicates just how wrong you are. If the screens are turned up or devices are switched on the wattage jumps up a lot. There is enough evidence that lower display brightness uses less power especially on larger monitors. For the most part I generally assume people who don't care about energy conservation/optimization are ignorant about the real functional requirements. :cool:

My power wattage readings say your wrong. Newer devices may be setup to provide optimal performance (in comparison to older technology) or less optimal performance for less energy (in comparison to new technology). My devices running in vampire mode use about 7-10 watts and not everything needs as much PoWeR as you assume while active. :rolleyes:

Think about this, 20 years ago people thought to light a room you'd need at least a 100 watt light bulb, Now you can do the same with roughly a 10 watt LED light. The tungsten lights used back then where very inefficient. They generated more inferred light/heat then visible light.

In retrospect newer hardware that has the same processing power to older technology is designed to be more efficient. If you can't figure it out yet compare the power requirements for a PS3 phat 60gb model to the new super slim units of today. They have the same processing power but use less energy.

I think the people who hated the PS2 the most have a naive approach with the infatuation that bigger is better and everything needs more PoWeR. As for consoles you do realize over the years as hardware grew more advanced developers become sloppy at optimization?

The reason FFXI has remained so compatible with older hardware is because its not really being updated to the newer hardware. Honestly, I don't think the developers can handle programming for the older consoles much longer. The fact is updates are becoming worse in stability. This shows just how much the limitations are impacting their ability to program stable content for older hardware. If they're given the opportunity for fat bandwidth pipes, a lot of memory, more processing power I can guarantee you that their products will become equally bloated and inefficient (just look at FFXIV).

Most people like over estimate requirements and are very also sloppy in their utilization. OMG!, :eek: we need 16GB ram, 8gb crossfire video cards, 500 watt power supply, a 20+ Mbps internet connection, and a three monitor setup to play windows solitaire. In today's world of power users if all that was standard I'd bet someone would/could create a version of solitaire that needed all of it.

If the PS2 was redesigned today with smaller chips and a newer HDD technology it'd draw less power. The reason why Japanese cling to these older PS2 systems is because they don't need more power to enjoy older gaming content. :confused:

The trending power hungry types want more and think they need it. Optimization/conservation of power and memory is obviously a low priority to power users. It's all about maximum performance and eye CaNdY. That's why Sony pushed the technology and stopped shipping PS2s. If they didn't then the market for new software would continue to stagnate much like FFXI is experiencing today. This doesn't mean that newer technology can't be efficient while providing the same or a better experience. :o

[Arcon]

The 20W statement is a complete fabrication. A PC consuming more than 400W is entirely possible and plausible, although probably not for FFXI.

And the point was that PCs themselves never took off quite as they did here, partly due to space issues. There's no denying that there are very simple and efficient ways around it. It's more of a mentality issue than a practical one, and sadly those aren't as easy to fix.


My point is if they're keeping PS2 support in one region (especially Japan) then they're keeping PS2 limitations in all regions.

Obviously, but it's still a step that shows where the future is headed. If someone said PS2 limitations were removed with this update, that's clearly wrong, and sadly it wouldn't happen right away even after they stopped releasing on PS2 entirely, because it could still mean that merely newer components of the game are no longer bound by PS2 restrictions, but particularly things that are independent of the content (like inventory for example) may never be improved due to that.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Oddly enough, the death of the PS2 might be the very thing that revives FFXI.

In case you haven't been paying attention over the past years or so, they've already started implementing improvements that only apply to the Xbox 360 and PC, or PC alone.

Dropping PS2 support won't change the fact that you're playing a PS2 emulator.

[Sarick]

The 20W statement is a complete fabrication. A PC consuming more than 400W is entirely possible and plausible, although probably not for FFXI.

Sorry you didn't read my reply to the first post after that. I admitted to about 34-40 watts after testing the devices under a an active load. I remembered about 40 watts and forgot I'm not supposed to be splitting it for two devices. This still doesn't account for the laptop (browsing the web) and those two net boxes running at less then 100 watts while the game is active on both. Selective reading doesn't make you look smarter. :mad:

Wattage for a computer is relevant to power and design. Rasberry Pi (http://www.gizmag.com/raspberry-pi-personal-computer-launch/20944/) seems to disagree that a computer needs to run with much draw. Here is a video of the Netbox 330i Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3SuK_XEqAg), Netbox 330i basic specs. (http://www.taobao-dropship-agent.com/goods-302511-Foxconn-NetBox-nT-330i-HD-mini-HTPC-Barebone-SPDIF-WIFI-3C.html). I bought them at Newegg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856119016) to bad they no longer make them.

This system runs FFXI.. LOL


I've been tempted to build a basic media box using a Raspberry Pi board combined with XBMC, which has been ported to the platform. The Model A's lack of Ethernet support definitely limits the options for streaming content, though. The Model B is still incredibly inexpensive considering the capabilities, and at 3.5W, its power rating is still pretty modest.

As said on Techreport.com (http://techreport.com/news/23985/new-raspberry-pi-board-has-lower-power-consumption-price)

Like I said the PS2 is using old hardware in today's standards it would use even less for the same function.


Obviously, but it's still a step that shows where the future is headed. If someone said PS2 limitations were removed with this update, that's clearly wrong, and sadly it wouldn't happen right away even after they stopped releasing on PS2 entirely, because it could still mean that merely newer components of the game are no longer bound by PS2 restrictions, but particularly things that are independent of the content (like inventory for example) may never be improved due to that.

It'd be likely they'd break the game more or need a complete rewrite of the engine to fully utilize the current technology. A lot of the code would need rebuilt from the ground up. IT wouldn't be efficient and would cost more then is worth doing.

You see how much the development has started going south since FFXIV was first released. A lot of the money gained from FFXI subscriptions is most likely being funneled into FFXIV development. What makes anyone think they'd suddenly divert that funding back into FFXI just to bring it up to today's technology?

SE decided to continue support in Japan because it had a larger user base then in the US.
If they stopped supporting the console support tomorrow I don't think we'd see any major improvements because the original engine s just to outdated.

[Rustic]

But the next expansion isn't 360/PC only, unless you're talking about whatever comes after Adoulin.

That's precisely what I'm talking about. Adoulin outside Japan was already Xbox/PC only- there is no NA PS2 release for it. If the next expansion is Xbox/PC only, period...well then, let's make it something that no longer is constrained by the PS2's now severe limitations vs. modern gaming consoles. Better graphics, improvements to gameplay and file sizes that reflect modern games, a more robust data transfer system that isn't crippled by the PS2's maximum of oldschool 56K.

After Adoulin, update FFXI to more modern standards. It's time to step beyond a 2000-era platform and restore the game.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Better graphics, improvements to gameplay and file sizes that reflect modern games, a more robust data transfer system that isn't crippled by the PS2's maximum of oldschool 56K.

It's called "Final Fantasy XIV."

What you're asking for will require a rebuild of the game from the ground up, which is comparable to writing a whole new game from scratch.

Don't expect FFXI to get such an overhaul before EverQuest does, which I believe has been running the same graphics engine since 1999. And that doesn't run through a PS2 emulator.

[Rustic]

In case you haven't been paying attention over the past years or so, they've already started implementing improvements that only apply to the Xbox 360 and PC, or PC alone.

Dropping PS2 support won't change the fact that you're playing a PS2 emulator.

No, but there's tweaking that can be done once you're no longer taking some of the hardware limitations into account. One biggie is that FFXI had to pack itself + expansions into the PS2 HD, which is no longer an issue if they're no longer supporting FFXI's later expansions. That gives you more room for new zones and the like that aren't copy-pastes.

[Alhanelem]

Dropping PS2 support won't change the fact that you're playing a PS2 emulator.There's a difference between porting the game and "playing on a ps2 emulator."

The main difference being a PC, nor the game, are restricted to a set hardware configuration. If the PS2 were completely out of the picture, they could make changes to the game that would require additional memory, for instance, because PCs don't have that limitation (and the xbox 360 has more memory than the ps2... right?). They've already done this to some degree, by including some higher resolution textures for UI elements, along with the upcoming new UI which can't be used on the consoles because it takes too much memory.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

One biggie is that FFXI had to pack itself + expansions into the PS2 HD

The PS2 hard drive is twice the size of the Xbox 360's original hard drive, which S-E does and must support. On top of that, the PS2 version of the game takes up the least amount of space by far.

[Volkai]

It's likely that SE will support PS2 access to FFXI until Sony shuts off DNAS, but I strongly suspect Seekers of Adoulin will be the last FFXI expansion to receive a PS2 release in Japan.

[Sarick]

It's likely that SE will support PS2 access to FFXI until Sony shuts off DNAS, but I strongly suspect Seekers of Adoulin will be the last FFXI expansion to receive a PS2 release in Japan.

If you consider it a release. I can bet that it'll be so broken that it won't even run as an expansion. To much memory corruption causing Black Screens of Death. Since they're having problems fixing the issues that have existed since the WoTG expansion (which they still haven't fixed) it's definitely not going to fix itself in the future. The PS2 crashes started happening really bad after they added the new Abby zones. These did exist before in the WOTG expansion but nothing like the issues of today.

The crashes forced me off my PS2's and PS3's. Deep down I had the gut feeling this was deliberate to ween PS2/PS3 users on to PC but there is no factual evidence to directly support it. The only probable evidence is the issues kept getting worse and it didn't appear like they was actively attempting to fix them. They kept saying it was firewalls and internet connection issues sweeping them under the rug. It's simple logic, if the first WOTG CS in the tower still crash PS2s and this problem has existed more then two years it's it kind of obvious where the priority is.

[oliveira]

FFXI for the PS2 was developed with SDK 2.3.0 (Software Development Kit, SDK). Currently some bits of SDK 3.0.0 are in use with it (USB, network and gamepad controller drivers) and that's probably just to enhance peripherals compatibility.

For curiosity sake, the PS2 SDK 2.3.0 is so old it was used to compile compile the Japanese release of Final Fantasy X back in 2001.

They probably kept it on that SDK to not need to rewrite massive portions of the game source code.

Also some other Square titles: (All Japanese releases)

The Bouncer SDK 2.2.0
Final Fantasy X SDK 2.3.0
Kingdom Hearts SDK 2.4.3
Final Fantasy XII SDK3.0.0
Kingdom Hearts 2 SDK 3.0.0


I am not happy with seeing the PS2 go away, but oh well, life moves on.