Weaponskills That Need Most Refinement

[Zeroe]

The purpose of this thread is to just isolate a few weaponskills that need serious readjustments. Although I believe dozens of them need a rework, there are some in most dire need of a total refinement. Please post your four most desired weaponskills to be reworked. Maybe this will help the devs narrow down there choices and start the refinement process.

My List:

Cloudsplitter
Quietus
Leaden Salute
Camlann's Torment

[Nebo]

Rudra's Storm
Mercy Stroke
Mandalic Stab

[Direct]

Metatron torment needs a big overhall bravura is just that far behind Ukonvasara

Knights of round

Scourge

Geirskogul

Infact i'd go as far as to sugest that all relic weaponskills and some aftermaths need adjustment on a case by case basis, the five above need serious adjusting.

[Kincard]

Mercy Stroke

What? No. It's not perfect or anything, and I agree it could use just a bit more of a boost, but it's actually one of the best relic weapon skills. I know that's not saying much, but it's an improvement over the other ones in the fact that you actually use it, lol.

[Leonardus]

Cloudsplitter.

Looks beautiful, does terrible damage. I think even Primal Rend does better damage at 100 TP. Did they consider that at all? If I save up 300 TP, I could of done three Ruinators. They don't seem to factor that in at all.

[nyheen]

dont know about you guys bout Leaden Salute is kinda strong with magic buff, sure it not like wildfire but it useful. Rudra's Storm is mostly powerful when used thf or dnc Abilities other then that it ok but a boost would work

[Mayoyama]

Blade: Metsu: Should be a multi-hit ws to match the animation and should be allowed to crit. The aftermath of lolsubtleblow should equally be changed, potentially to something such as a bonus to ninja tool expertise.

Jishnu's Radiance: The ws has scaled poorly from what it was at 85 and for a multi-hit+crit ws, it really falls behind other ranged ws. It is also frowned upon due to its dex mod (when ranged attacks are agi based) but if the fTP was increased slightly then this would help counteract this.

Atonement: This used to be PLD's crowning glory.. now its just lolworthy (especially due to being tied to emnity). If the max dmg able to be dealt was doubled from 750 to 1500, it wouldnt be broken and would allow plds to have a slightly better chance of keeping up with the hate of the DDs (and it is more than possible to hit 1500 ws using cdc/requiescat outside abyssea)

[saevel]

Jishnu's Radiance: The ws has scaled poorly from what it was at 85 and for a multi-hit+crit ws, it really falls behind other ranged ws. It is also frowned upon due to its dex mod (when ranged attacks are agi based) but if the fTP was increased slightly then this would help counteract this.

WTF this makes no sense. JR is as powerful as / nearly as (depending on gear and situation) LS for physical ranged WS. WF is highly reliant on some sort of +Fire Damage buff typically seen inside abyssea or voidwatch, it's also magic damage so favors COR by far. Ranged attacks are not "AGI Based", AGI only effects ranged accuracy and RNG has an A+ skill along with five accuracy bonus traits for a total of +60. If anything Ranged Attacks are "STR based" as they get double the fSTR bonus that melees get. The only reason you see more Marks Rangers is that they have more options (Anni / Arma) where as Gandiva is JR spam RNG only, both deal the same amount of damage but Marks has the choice of switching to magic or reduced-hate damage.

[saevel]

Everyone will list their favorite job's WS here for "broken". There are many but I'd prefer to keep it down to specific Job's needing better choices. Entropy sucks but DRK can use a Rag and Resolution so it should be lower on the priority list. In that same vein Rudra's Storm sucks but THF has access to MS, though dancer is screwed. I would like to see RS be allowed to crit, or DNC put on Mandau to compensate for it. Also Exten should be modified to allow fTP to carry across all hits.

Cloudsplitter sucks but BST has access to the BST 1H WS in the game. Ruinator is four (five as DW) hit attack that can copy fTP for a total of 6.0 fTP before DA/TA procs. It's also 100% STR WSC and carries a ~35% attack bonus. So even if they do buff CS it won't hold a candle to Ruin's damage output.

All considered, DNC, PUP, NIN are the jobs without really nice WS options. For weapons most of the relic WS's suck but the recent merit ones mostly make up for that.

[Damane]

dont know about you guys bout Leaden Salute is kinda strong with magic buff, sure it not like wildfire but it useful. Rudra's Storm is mostly powerful when used thf or dnc Abilities other then that it ok but a boost would work

its actually terrible outside of VW and Abyssea, Wildfire exeeds in that department miles ahead without magic buffs from VW and AByssea. + the fact that it gets resisted quiet often compared to Wilfire (Darkness dmg pritty much gets resisted on a ton of mobs, check undead, check most NMs etc etc), not to mention the modifiers are just ugh 30% AGI on Laeden Salute vs 60% AGI modifier on wildfire ... yeah

[Caketime]

I've always wondered what the point of Cloudsplitter was. I imagine that when it was first being tested the damage was considered too high so they nerfed it to the ground pre-release and slapped it on the Farsha as a last minute troll move. "They'll spend weeks building this Axe only to find out the WS sucks! Mwahahaha!". Ruinator is the boss.

[Damane]

Everyone will list their favorite job's WS here for "broken". There are many but I'd prefer to keep it down to specific Job's needing better choices. Entropy sucks but DRK can use a Rag and Resolution so it should be lower on the priority list. In that same vein Rudra's Storm sucks but THF has access to MS, though dancer is screwed. I would like to see RS be allowed to crit, or DNC put on Mandau to compensate for it. Also Exten should be modified to allow fTP to carry across all hits.

Cloudsplitter sucks but BST has access to the BST 1H WS in the game. Ruinator is four (five as DW) hit attack that can copy fTP for a total of 6.0 fTP before DA/TA procs. It's also 100% STR WSC and carries a ~35% attack bonus. So even if they do buff CS it won't hold a candle to Ruin's damage output.

All considered, DNC, PUP, NIN are the jobs without really nice WS options. For weapons most of the relic WS's suck but the recent merit ones mostly make up for that.

this doesnt make sense, you are excluding in that way some relic/mythic/empy that need an overhaul. What you gonna tell a DRK that made a relic or empy scythe? (not that the relic scythe is bad its awesome) go do a Ragnarok? Same goes with Armageddon vs death penalt. Sucks for your lvl 99 mythic to get outdamaged by a lvl 85 empy! The WSs need balance in between. Thats all people are asking.

IMHO WSs that need an overhaul:

in the relic department:
- Final Heaven (Spharai): lack of damage compared to Shijin Spiral/Victory Smite
- Knights of Rounds (Excalibur): lack of damage compared to Chant de Cygne, tough Excalibur itself has alot of potential in their add effect proc
- Scourge (Ragnarok): lack of damage compared to Resolution/Torcleaver
- Onslaught (Guttler): lack of damage compared to Ruinator
- Metatron Torment (Bravura): lack of damage compared to Ukyo's Fury
- Geirskogul (Gugnir): lack of damage compared to Stardiver/Drakes bane
- Blade: Megsu (Kikoku): lack of damage compared to Blade: Hi
- Tachi: Kaiten (Amano): lack of damage compared to Tachi: Shoha/Tachi: Fudo
- Namas Arrow (Yoichi): lack of damage OR (not both) lack of low enmity generation

not listed because usefull and good:
- Catastroph (Apocalypse): This WS is decent and heals the user
- Coronach (Annihilator): This WS deals almost no enmity which makes it so fantastiq in a lot of Fights
- Mercy Stroke (Mandau): good WS


Mythic WSs (Those WSs should get a normal adjustment, they have +30% dmg on mythic weapons, but that doesnt cut it):
- Kings Justice (WAR): lack of dmg, this WS is WAY behind
- Ascetics Fury (MNK): lack of dmg and way to inconsistence
- Mandalic Stab (THF): lack of dmg
- Atonement (PLD): lack of dmg (750 dmg really lol) + every mob by now is immune to it or resists it to hell
- Insurgency (DRK): lack of dmg
- Drakesbane (DRG): lack of dmg compared to stardiver, the -attack penalty kills it
- Laeden Salute (COR): lack of dmg compared to wildfire, high resist rate due to monters/NMs usually resisting dark based elemental magic.
- Pyrrhic Kleos (DNC): its okeish but behind, better modifiers would fix it easy.

not listed because good:
- STringing pummel (PUP)

not listed because no experience:
- The rest

[Spiritreaver]

You make a solid post like the following


WTF this makes no sense. JR is as powerful as / nearly as (depending on gear and situation) LS for physical ranged WS. WF is highly reliant on some sort of +Fire Damage buff typically seen inside abyssea or voidwatch, it's also magic damage so favors COR by far. Ranged attacks are not "AGI Based", AGI only effects ranged accuracy and RNG has an A+ skill along with five accuracy bonus traits for a total of +60. If anything Ranged Attacks are "STR based" as they get double the fSTR bonus that melees get. The only reason you see more Marks Rangers is that they have more options (Anni / Arma) where as Gandiva is JR spam RNG only, both deal the same amount of damage but Marks has the choice of switching to magic or reduced-hate damage.

Then you throw out a post like this right after...



Everyone will list their favorite job's WS here for "broken". There are many but I'd prefer to keep it down to specific Job's needing better choices. Entropy sucks but DRK can use a Rag and Resolution so it should be lower on the priority list. In that same vein Rudra's Storm sucks but THF has access to MS, though dancer is screwed. I would like to see RS be allowed to crit, or DNC put on Mandau to compensate for it. Also Exten should be modified to allow fTP to carry across all hits.

Cloudsplitter sucks but BST has access to the BST 1H WS in the game. Ruinator is four (five as DW) hit attack that can copy fTP for a total of 6.0 fTP before DA/TA procs. It's also 100% STR WSC and carries a ~35% attack bonus. So even if they do buff CS it won't hold a candle to Ruin's damage output.

All considered, DNC, PUP, NIN are the jobs without really nice WS options. For weapons most of the relic WS's suck but the recent merit ones mostly make up for that.

And i mostly mean the last line that i bolded. I'll give you the bit about DNC, but you really need to rethink PUP and NIN.

For NIN at endgame lvl, either Hi or Shun is the way to go. Properly geared either is a hell of a WS. AGI(Hi) and DEX(Shun) gear is readily available to NIN, so i'm really not seeing where the lack of a strong WS for NIN is coming from.

And i left PUP for last as i almost killed myself laughing, making my coffee go down the wrong way. Love or hate PUP as a job, whatever, i'm years past giving a damn over how non-PUP view the job; but you do know that PUP has access to Victory Smite AND Stringing Pummel right? I'd really like to hear your reasoning behind calling either of those WSs anything other than awesome.

[Caketime]

Maybe he dislikes the PUP hat so much that VS and Pummel don't count. I'd find that odd though, PUP gets the coolest hat.

[Kincard]

Actually, I'm sure Exenterator regularly outdoes Blade: Hi and Blade: Shun (I've never parsed my Exents VS His but I doubt it's much worse even if it doesn't match up). Blade: Hi's strength is greatly exaggerated by the playerbase thanks to its inflated damage inside Abyssea. Outside Abyssea Ninja's Weapon Skills are still very, very weak compared to pretty much every other job. I say this despite having a nearly perfect Hi set (Just missing Khepri Jacket), my Blade: His still arn't anything mind blowing outside Abyssea.

Blade: Shun is one of the most lackluster of the merit weapon skills. I'm pretty sure only Apex Arrow is worse.

At least DNCs have a halfway decent Mythic WS to go with their halfway decent Mythic, right? Hurray for 600M on a slight upgrade.

[Spiritreaver]

Actually, I'm sure Exenterator regularly outdoes Blade: Hi and Blade: Shun (I've never parsed my Exents VS His but I doubt it's much worse even if it doesn't match up). Blade: Hi's strength is greatly exaggerated by the playerbase thanks to its inflated damage inside Abyssea. Outside Abyssea Ninja's Weapon Skills are still very, very weak compared to pretty much every other job. I say this despite having a nearly perfect Hi set (Just missing Khepri Jacket), my Blade: His still arn't anything mind blowing outside Abyssea.

Blade: Shun is one of the most lackluster of the merit weapon skills. I'm pretty sure only Apex Arrow is worse.

At least DNCs have a halfway decent Mythic WS to go with their halfway decent Mythic, right? Hurray for 600M on a slight upgrade.

What is 'lackluster' outside of Abyssea on a one-hander job? A definite range if you please. I don't have Hi, but i DO have Shun and with ~ +80 DEX, ele gorget and ele belt in my Shun WS set, my WSs are between 1500 and 2k outside-2.5k to 3k plus inside. Its not better than what i can do with Jishnu's or Victory Smite, but i wouldn't call it crap either.

[Kincard]

Last time I did Qilin I believe I averaged something like ~1200 for Blade: His. Granted, hard to get into position for Innin when the thing keeps spinning around. It's not terrible or anything, it's just not "good".

Can't say as much for Shun since I almost never use it. Generally I have no real reason to I'm sure you can imagine, heh. I end up around the same as my Hi's though, it's just that I don't get the aftermath so I don't fire it off other than to show off.

I was actually speaking more in general since I average way, way higher than that using Upheaval on my mediocre WAR, and my THF's Exenterator regularly gets pretty close even though my gear for that job isn't stellar, either. (Exenterator also doesn't have the flaw of randomly giving derp damage because of a missed first hit) If I use Rudra's Storm on my SA or TAs that definately blows Hi away since those do 2000-3000+ pretty consistently.

Blade: Shun and Blade: Hi might both be far stronger than what NIN had beforehand, but it still doesn't come close to the WSs many other jobs have, even amongst 1Hers. Victory Smite, CDC, and Mercy Stroke are all better.

They both suffer from the same problem- they use a mod that don't also increase damage "naturally". Ex: DEX on CDC will increase the crit rate, STR on Ukko's will increase with the fSTR and attack etc. AGI doesn't provide any good melee stats (lolsubtleblow) and the DEX mod would be nice if Shun was a crit WS, lol.

[Spiritreaver]

As is habit for me, breaking your post up and replying to each bit. Just helps me focus my replies.


1)Last time I did Qilin I believe I averaged something like ~1200 for Blade: His. Granted, hard to get into position for Innin when the thing keeps spinning around. It's not terrible or anything, it's just not "good".

2)Can't say as much for Shun since I almost never use it. Generally I have no real reason to I'm sure you can imagine, heh. I end up around the same as my Hi's though, it's just that I don't get the aftermath so I don't fire it off other than to show off.

3)I was actually speaking more in general since I average way, way higher than that using Upheaval on my mediocre WAR, and my THF's Exenterator regularly gets pretty close even though my gear for that job isn't stellar, either. (Exenterator also doesn't have the flaw of randomly giving derp damage because of a missed first hit) If I use Rudra's Storm on my SA or TAs that definately blows Hi away since those do 2000-3000+ pretty consistently.

Blade: Shun and Blade: Hi might both be far stronger than what NIN had beforehand, but it still doesn't come close to the WSs many other jobs have, even amongst 1Hers. Victory Smite, CDC, and Mercy Stroke are all better.

4)They both suffer from the same problem- they use a mod that don't also increase damage "naturally". Ex: DEX on CDC will increase the crit rate, STR on Ukko's will increase with the fSTR and attack etc. AGI doesn't provide any good melee stats (lolsubtleblow) and the DEX mod would be nice if Shun was a crit WS, lol.


@1- Personally i'd not use Qilin as any kind of a measuring stick, but that's just me. If you must use a VW mob, i'd go Pil or one of the Kali looking undead SAM mob.

@2- Do you have Shun 5/5? Along with specs for it(katana merits, 12/12 DEX, elemental gorger/belt, etc.)? Makes a huge difference.

@3- Fair comparisons, but you must keep perspective. The weapons you use with Upheaval and Ext. have much higher base dmg than a Katana(not going into how SA works, you are intelligent). So of course, dmg from them is going to be in a whole other league. I mean its a WS from a D50-ish weapon VS a WS from a D130-ish weapon, huge jump.

@4- Very true, while the stat mods aren't STR which would be awesome, SE gave us the ability to max out the contribution these stats up to 100%(85%) in the WS as well as giving ludicrous amounts of gear with that stat in abundance.

Now while it would be kinda cool if Shun or any of the merit WSs could crit, i'm actually happy they don't. Sure they don't spike as high as a crit hit WS can(especially in Abyssea), but they are very consistent. And they are consistent everywhere.

[Pebe]

Gates of Tartarus
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[Jaall]

I have to say out of all the WS's available, Geirskogul has to be one of the worst ws's. I'm drg main and just got Gungnir but I have no problem with geirskogul being bad as I can just use stardiver and drakes, BUT... If any ws was to be rethought and changed it should be that. Reasons being that it is AGI 60% mod, yet never seen any use for AGI on DRG post 2006. Secondly, it misses all the time! Even with the acc+ on the weapon itself, and a lot of other acc+ gear, it misses more than most other ws's and is part of a relic which I just think is a little bit off. Thirdly the overall damage is very weak even against EP and DC mobs in comparison to even wheeling thrust etc. And lastly, although not directly related, the aftermath is terrible. The last point has been mentioned a lot and has been needed to be fixed for a while and is all over the DRG forum so not gonna go into that in any more detail.

I know this sounds as if I'm moaning about it but I'm not too fussed, as when I've done my trials to upgrade I'm happy to never use it again (Stardiver and drakes are just a million times nicer and probably always will be, and I made the relic for the weapon itself, not the ws!). But I think, like most relic ws's which I do agree all need to be "updated", they should be a lot stronger considering the effort needed to obtain them. DRG's ws should be top priority in that respect though as from what I can see it's very far behind.

[Alhanelem]

All considered, DNC, PUP, NIN are the jobs without really nice WS options.what? PUP? You've never used Victory Smite or Stringing Pummel? Both of these WS are solid. Spiral and the new kick rather leave something to be desired though.

[Spiritreaver]

what? PUP? You've never used Victory Smite or Stringing Pummel? Both of these WS are solid. Spiral and the new kick rather leave something to be desired though.

He won't reply to this just like he didn't reply when i said i'd like to see his rationale almost 12 hrs ago - for the simple reason that he can't. Both Victory Smite and Stringing Pummel are good solid WSs that he just overlooked in that sweeping generalization he made.

Best he could say is he overlooked them, but going on the posts of his i've seen just today, that prolly ain't gonna happen.

[Afania]

dont know about you guys bout Leaden Salute is kinda strong with magic buff, sure it not like wildfire but it useful.


That's contradiction. If it's not as strong as X, then it's not useful because you can just use X.

[Spiritreaver]

That's contradiction. If it's not as strong as X, then it's not useful because you can just use X.

You are just being argumentative. Because contrary to how its portrayed on forums, everyone with COR does NOT have Empy Gun lvl 85+, or even the WoE version.

[Kincard]

Well, it's definitely true that Death Penalty is very meh largely because of Leaden Salute's mediocrity, which is a shame because of how cool the weapon looks.

[Byrth]

You can't just arbitrarily choose weaponskills that need refinement without knowing their intended purpose. For instance, SE recently told us that they couldn't increase the magic accuracy of Shockwave because that would be unbalanced. Anyone else probably would have looked at an AoE "Additional Effect: Sleep" weaponskill and assumed it was meant to sleep things, but SE disagrees.

Basically, you're wasting your time proposing WS refinements until you know what a WS is for, which you can't know without being SE. There are very many weaponskills that could be adjusted so they're more useful and to expand the range of weaponskills that different jobs *actually* use, but SE is likely unwilling to do it.

Dagger- I have every Dagger job and have leveled multiple jobs solo and in parties that use these WSs, so I'll use Dagger as an example.
Wasp Sting - Give it 2 fTP so that dagger has a WS before Viper Bite (or Dancing Edge for DNC) that isn't shit.
Gust Slash - Fine, give it a long range like Cyclone.
Shadow Stitch - Fine.
Viper Bite - Fine.
Cyclone - Fine.
Energy Steal - Fine.
Energy Drain - Fine, though I'd honestly make it so you don't get two MP stealing WSs back-to-back. That just seems dumb.
Dancing Edge - Fine.
Shark Bite - This WS has always lived in DE's shadow. Give it a 25% Attack boost and it will pull ahead for SA WS if xp parties ever come back.
Evisceration - Fine.
Mercy Stroke - This WS should be allowed to crit. It doesn't need to have "Chance of critical hit varies with TP." but it should be able to critical hit so that jobs without the ability to force critical hits (RDM and BRD) can still use it to some effect.
Mandalic Stab - Should be 60% DEX.
Mordant Rime - Fine.
Pyrrhic Kleos - Fine, though I'd make it 30% STR / 30% DEX.
Aeolian Edge - Fine.
Rudra's Storm - I'd propose the same adjustment as Mercy Stroke. Allow it to critical hit.
Exenterator - Fine.

[Damane]

You can't just arbitrarily choose weaponskills that need refinement without knowing their intended purpose. For instance, SE recently told us that they couldn't increase the magic accuracy of Shockwave because that would be unbalanced. Anyone else probably would have looked at an AoE "Additional Effect: Sleep" weaponskill and assumed it was meant to sleep things, but SE disagrees.

Basically, you're wasting your time proposing WS refinements until you know what a WS is for, which you can't know without being SE. There are very many weaponskills that could be adjusted so they're more useful and to expand the range of weaponskills that different jobs *actually* use, but SE is likely unwilling to do it.

Dagger- I have every Dagger job and have leveled multiple jobs solo and in parties that use these WSs, so I'll use Dagger as an example.
Wasp Sting - Give it 2 fTP so that dagger has a WS before Viper Bite (or Dancing Edge for DNC) that isn't shit.
Gust Slash - Fine, give it a long range like Cyclone.
Shadow Stitch - Fine.
Viper Bite - Fine.
Cyclone - Fine.
Energy Steal - Fine.
Energy Drain - Fine, though I'd honestly make it so you don't get two MP stealing WSs back-to-back. That just seems dumb.
Dancing Edge - Fine.
Shark Bite - This WS has always lived in DE's shadow. Give it a 25% Attack boost and it will pull ahead for SA WS if xp parties ever come back.
Evisceration - Fine.
Mercy Stroke - This WS should be allowed to crit. It doesn't need to have "Chance of critical hit varies with TP." but it should be able to critical hit so that jobs without the ability to force critical hits (RDM and BRD) can still use it to some effect.
Mandalic Stab - Should be 60% DEX.
Mordant Rime - Fine.
Pyrrhic Kleos - Fine, though I'd make it 30% STR / 30% DEX.
Aeolian Edge - Fine.
Rudra's Storm - I'd propose the same adjustment as Mercy Stroke. Allow it to critical hit.
Exenterator - Fine.


I think what people want mostly is to even out the playing field between empy, relic, mythic and merit point WSs. There is 2 ways to fix this:

Method 1:
Adjust every empy, relic, mythic and merit point WS

Method 2, this is the much easier route:
allow all empy + relic WSs to be questable via magian moogles or so (the aftermath of course only applies to the real weapons) and uncap the merit WS category.

method 2 would of course change the existing hierarchy of strong weapons totally. Death penalty with Wildfire would suddenly pull ahead. Conqueror with Ukyo's Fury during Berserk with mythic aftermath would be maybe broken and excalibur or burtgang with chant du cygne would make pld a force to recon.

[Kieron]

Expiacion - Give it at least a gimped Mystic Boon like effect since it literally does nothing. It's painfully weak and it doesn't even have a debuff on it.
Rudra Storm/Mercy Stroke - Let it critical hit on its own.

[Afania]

You are just being argumentative. Because contrary to how its portrayed on forums, everyone with COR does NOT have Empy Gun lvl 85+, or even the WoE version.

I can just argue that every single none-empy/relic/mythic/merit point WS is useful then, for those who doesn't have R/E/M and don't have merit WS. Can I say Gekko is useful because I don't have R/E/M and don't have shoha?

But no, it doesn't work that way.

[Caketime]

You can argue all day, it doesn't necessarily make you right.

[Spiritreaver]

I can just argue that every single none-empy/relic/mythic/merit point WS is useful then, for those who doesn't have R/E/M and don't have merit WS. Can I say Gekko is useful because I don't have R/E/M and don't have shoha?

But no, it doesn't work that way.

You are right, not every WS is useful, and that's kinda the frickin point. While i don't think ANYONE is asking for that specifically, every WS being a 'go to' WS, people that agree with the OP and are asking that some WSs get looked at for improvement so the list of WSs people actually use gets broadened a bit. And that isn't a bad thing.

[Suph]

Leaden Salute is weaker than Wildfire, but it is also easier to get, therefore it's still useful.

Cloudsplitter is weaker than Ruinator, and it is also harder to get, therefore it is useless.

As Leaden Salute is easier to get than Wildfire, it is possible that there will be people who don't take corsair seriously enough to get an Armageddon but still have Leaden Salute, and that's useful to them. It is however much less likely that someone will put all the effort into a Fasha if they're not serious enough about axe to even put some merits into Ruinator.

Therefore Leaden Salute is still useful, for those that don't have Wildfire or those working toward one. But any serious axe user will get Ruinator before Cloudsplitter, and once they do, why work toward Cloudsplitter at all? That's the difference.

[Karbuncle]

I think Mercy stroke is only considered a good WS In light that other dagger weaponskills suck horrible ass and its just the shiniest turd in a THF's arsenal. Its not a good Relic WS, Its just a good Dagger WS. its as weak and miserable as all the others, Its just surrounded by more sh*tty WS options than the other relic WS so it looks better in comparison.

Honestly, Both Rudra's and Mercy should be changed to a 5.0fTP with chance of Crit so they can be powerful stacked and unstacked. Both WS would become not much more powerful than they are now (In fact, Rudra's would be losing a little power uncrit'd at 300%"), and they would become a bit more comparable to other big DD WS without outshining them.

[ManaKing]

Leaden Salute is weaker than Wildfire, but it is also easier to get, therefore it's still useful.

Cloudsplitter is weaker than Ruinator, and it is also harder to get, therefore it is useless.

As Leaden Salute is easier to get than Wildfire, it is possible that there will be people who don't take corsair seriously enough to get an Armageddon but still have Leaden Salute, and that's useful to them. It is however much less likely that someone will put all the effort into a Fasha if they're not serious enough about axe to even put some merits into Ruinator.

Therefore Leaden Salute is still useful, for those that don't have Wildfire or those working toward one. But any serious axe user will get Ruinator before Cloudsplitter, and once they do, why work toward Cloudsplitter at all? That's the difference.

I'm working on my Farsha slowly, only because I like the way the weapon looks and it's one of the best Axes in the game. I don't want to make another Relic, because I'm cheap.

Cloudsplitter is magic vs Ruinator's physical damage, but Ruinator will win almost every single time, because that's the way SE designed the game. Whether they intended it or not is less clear.

The lack of WS balance truthfully comes from a lack of different situations in which you should use them. If there were a lot more magic-weak instead of magic-resistant mobs, you'd see some different WSs being used. You'd also see more skill chains and mages, instead of a ton of DPS.

You'd also see things like Quietus, CT, and wheeling thrust used if mobs had extremely high defense that even a WAR or DRK couldn't nullify by overpowering it with Berserk and/or LR. But SE does not make mobs like that, unless there is a way to get temps or atmas or something to not make players actually think about what they are doing besides spamming multi-hit STR based WSs.

It's not like players are wrong from favoring Resolution, Ukko's, VS, Tachi: Shoha, Stardiver, and Ruinator. They are doing what makes sense considering what they are taking on. This is honestly SEs fault for not making more diverse challenges.

It's not like it's easy to keep everything as current as we would all like it to be so the game could be modern and fresh, but I think everyone agrees that is what should be what SE focuses on. FFXI is an MMO and that makes it unacceptable for the people that play/pay, for it to be finished and outdated. This game has gone through many phases of being good or great by different people's opinion. The game needs to keep growing and be refined more. I think there are a lot of good things about the game, but there are a couple of huge, nagging problems. WS balance and lack of diverse challenges are just some of the more obvious ones.

I personally am still bored by people spamming WSs as fast as they can, because that is what they should do to accomplish their objectives. I know SC and MB is an antiquated system, but by excluding it from the present state of the game, i think you are literally ripping the magic out of the game. Not to mention the teamwork.

[Alhanelem]

I know SC and MB is an antiquated system, but by excluding it from the present state of the game, i think you are literally ripping the magic out of the game. Not to mention the teamwork. It's just that they aren't effective enough for the effort they ask of players. The thing is, if you made them good enough to where people would want to use them, they might end up being broken.

[Kincard]

People skillchain all the time if it's available without needing to hold your TP for too long, because it effectively makes 1.5-2x the damage for the person closing.. MBs, on the other hand, need some sort of reworking, because as soon as anybody weaponskills after a skillchain is created, the MB window ends immediately.

[ManaKing]

It's just that they aren't effective enough for the effort they ask of players. The thing is, if you made them good enough to where people would want to use them, they might end up being broken.

What has to be adjusted is the kinds of mobs we fight. When mobs have -50% MDT and/or close to capped magic evasion, there is no reason to plan out single or double Dark/Light SCs even though you can do double damage if those SCs aren't resisted.

You can do things like make SC damage un-resistible, or do tons of extra damage, but honestly what would make the game a lot easier would be to stop giving every mob unreasonable amounts of magic defense. Mages only proc now, and that is pretty lackluster for a series that was built on magic and summoning. I agree that Mage Burning was just as bad as DPS Zerging, but excluding mages almost completely seems extremely foolish.

The middle ground approach would be to adjust SC damage somewhat so that it isn't completely nullified by mobs and also stop making such magic resistant mobs.

MB is a completely different issue even though it is obviously related. I would try to extend the window that MBs are available after a SC to a static amount instead of until next WS.

SC being bad is the reason people look for whatever is best at 100% TP. WSs like Spiral Hell that do increased damage on an exponential curve are perfect for closing SCs at 300% TP. But there is no reason for you to waste the time since you clearly could be spamming superior total damage WSs @ 100%TP because those WSs are new, shiny, and break the previous play style of the game.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be good WSs at 100% TP, but I ask the question: Is there really a reason for TP to even go up to 300% anymore?

[tyrantsyn]

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be good WSs at 100% TP, but I ask the question: Is there really a reason for TP to even go up to 300% anymore?

level 3 aftermaths.

[ManaKing]

level 3 aftermaths.

Which could be made into 100% TP and just drop the other 2 AMs. Their 'diversity' is what most people call bad or inferior. Relic AMs are mostly a joke, mythic AMs exist to get to 300% so that you can spam higher efficiency WSs at 100% over and over, and Empy just needs to be given a static value.

No more AM issue.
---

I don't agree with this mentality, obviously, because I'm looking for more relevant diversity for this game. The game is getting bland. My issue is that from an efficiency stand point and a math crunching stand point, this idea makes sense and basically is what the dev's turned the game into already. It's lazy and shows less emphasis on preserving what is good about the game vs changing it so that you can say that the game has been updated recently. 'Look guys! Updates! Aren't you happy? We fiddled with some stuff.' I don't think that all the work that has been done post aby is bad, I just think it really could have been better if they had better direction and possibly listened to their fan base more.

I personally love my merit WSs. Don't get me wrong. I would cry if they took my Requiescat, Ruinator, or Stardiver. I think they are really good WSs. But I do think that other WSs look terrible vs them and there are a lot of reasons for it and a lot of good that could be done to rectify it by preserving old parts of the game.

I'm not generally punitive about my suggestions because I think everyone is hurt by almost any nerf unless they are necessary just because it makes people upset and not want to play anymore. I don't particularly believe in taking something without giving something back in return because it makes people quit. I'm very against Ragnarok/Resolution because I think it is broken+good and marginalizes every other weapon in the game. But I don't think you should just screw everyone over that made a Ragnarok. IMHO they should make mobs that don't get clobbered by Resolution spam. It should still be good, just like a lot of the better WSs right now, but they should really spruce up some of the weaker WS, especially ones that are attached to prestige weapons, so that they can also have uses and have mobs that are much better dealt with by other WSs.

I really doubt people are going to complain about almost any Relic WS being changed because they already added +40% more damage on superior damage weapons and people still only use 2 of them.

Mythic WSs are a grab bag of treasure and trash, but at least no matter what, you can build a Mythic and get AM3 and then Merit WSs things faces off. Only a couple of Mythics are truly exceptional, but the majority are usable. The idea that any of them are not at least good is still viciously offensive for anyone since they cost so much, and honestly I would still only recommend thinking about building mythics if you are particularly die hard about your job. Besides DRG, there are almost always alternatives that are relatively close in potency and significantly cheaper. Since you can quest the WSs for them and they are job specific, you would really think that the dev team would focus more of their time on revitalizing them and giving every job something special or interesting for them to use, since only that job can use that particular WS. It makes it easy to give a job something nice without risking that X job uses it and it's super broken in their hands.

I won't comment on Empy's only because I'm sure we all have a similar opinion on Empy WSs since we are all so very aware of them because of the shear number of users. I'm sure everyone is very aware of how good some are and how lack luster others are.

[Hohenheim]

Trueflight pls

[Helel]

WTF this makes no sense. JR is as powerful as / nearly as (depending on gear and situation) LS for physical ranged WS. WF is highly reliant on some sort of +Fire Damage buff typically seen inside abyssea or voidwatch, it's also magic damage so favors COR by far. Ranged attacks are not "AGI Based", AGI only effects ranged accuracy and RNG has an A+ skill along with five accuracy bonus traits for a total of +60. If anything Ranged Attacks are "STR based" as they get double the fSTR bonus that melees get. The only reason you see more Marks Rangers is that they have more options (Anni / Arma) where as Gandiva is JR spam RNG only, both deal the same amount of damage but Marks has the choice of switching to magic or reduced-hate damage.

Actually, your post makes no sense. JR and LS = the same damage? Are you kidding me? The reason you see more marks RNG is because guns do better damage. Gandiva is for RNGs who want to play it cheap. Not to mention the bow is utterly useless on things like odin.

[tyrantsyn]

Which could be made into 100% TP and just drop the other 2 AMs. Their 'diversity' is what most people call bad or inferior. Relic AMs are mostly a joke, mythic AMs exist to get to 300% so that you can spam higher efficiency WSs at 100% over and over, and Empy just needs to be given a static value.

No more AM issue.
---
.
No thank you
I can't believe you'd even suggest this.

[ManaKing]

No thank you
I can't believe you'd even suggest this.

Read the next sentence where i say i dont want anything like that, please.

[tyrantsyn]

I saw that actually, but after reading what you had to say. That line stuck out the most to me, and it was just what I dwell on. Even tho you recanted it in the next paragraph.

You know I fear what is said around here sometimes. That the Dev's will take the Family Guy impression about thing. Youknow if one person complains = 10,000 people hate it.

[Taint2]

WTF this makes no sense. JR is as powerful as / nearly as (depending on gear and situation) LS for physical ranged WS. WF is highly reliant on some sort of +Fire Damage buff typically seen inside abyssea or voidwatch, it's also magic damage so favors COR by far. Ranged attacks are not "AGI Based", AGI only effects ranged accuracy and RNG has an A+ skill along with five accuracy bonus traits for a total of +60. If anything Ranged Attacks are "STR based" as they get double the fSTR bonus that melees get. The only reason you see more Marks Rangers is that they have more options (Anni / Arma) where as Gandiva is JR spam RNG only, both deal the same amount of damage but Marks has the choice of switching to magic or reduced-hate damage.


You don't know shit about RNG do you?

JR blows, it should be an AGI based WS. SE really screwed the pooch with the DEX mod.

[detlef]

I do love that part where he suggested doing away with AM1 and AM2, making AM3 activate at 100% tp. Make it happen Matsui.

[saevel]

You don't know shit about RNG do you?

JR blows, it should be an AGI based WS. SE really screwed the pooch with the DEX mod.

The math between them has them equal, though there is a big ??? about whether RA crits are dDEX or not. So far as we know AGI only adds ranged accuracy. Assuming their dDEX based similar to melee critical hit rate has JR equal to LS most of the times and sometimes ahead / behind depending on if the target has critical hit evasion BS (Mul).

JR is 1.75 (1.95) per hit with three hits for a total of 5.85 fTP @ 60% DEX WSC and can crit. Though ranged crits are inferior to melee crits as their only a 25% damage bonus they still count and people tend to forget they exist far too often.

LS is 2.0 fTP (2.2) per hit with two hits for a total of 4.2 fTP (moonshade doesn't seem to be worth it as little scaling as it does) @100% AGI.

JR has a fTP and crit advantage, LS has a WSC and better base weapon DMG. Though the other thing to take into account is fSTR on ranged attacks is 2:1 rather then 4:1 making +STR incredibly important until you hit fSTR cap.

Crit rate without gear would be
Base: 5
Merits: 5
Fencer: 5
WS base: 15

Gear should be higher with Athos Body + Augmented Byakkos giving a +9% crit damage. You'll want Athos's gloves for an additional +3% crit rate along with the STR and DEX. dDEX should be capped for another 15% crit rate. Maybe another piece or two but generally your now at 45~50% crit rate and should see a crit on every WS, which is why it's important to actually take that into account rather then completely disregarding it. My last point on JR is that too many players overlook STR in favor for DEX which is generally a mistake. 1 DEX is +0.51 base DMG, 1 STR is +0.5 base DMG (until fSTR cap) so their very similar until you hit fSTR cap and WS sets should be somewhat balanced between the two. Assuming target NM's have 110~120 VIT/AGI (generic target) the player should be looking at 160~170 DEX and STR in their WS setup with anymore going towards DEX.

So I'll say again, why in the hell would you want JR to be AGI based when AGI does nothing but ranged accuracy on a job that has five accuracy bonus's traits with an A rated skill?


Now the real reason so many go with marks is that there is no incentive to go with archery. With LS and JR being so dead event and marks offering additional benefits like hate free damage and magic damage (if you play COR) there is no reason a marks RNG would ever make a Gandiva and good reasons for an Archery RNG to make a Anni / Arma. Other then Archery taking less of a damage hit from standing outside of NM AoE range (a benefit of RNG) and having cheaper ammo costs, though lets be honest Marks RNG's don't shoot in Adam bullets they save them for WS.

[Afania]

You don't know shit about RNG do you?

JR blows, it should be an AGI based WS. SE really screwed the pooch with the DEX mod.

I may be wrong since I don't have RNG, but I'm under the impression that LS is good when you're buffed, and JR is good when you're not. So if you're being tossed into mage pt, pop champion, fighting higher def NMs, wouldn't JR pull ahead?(If both weapons at lv 99)

[Taint2]

Wall of Text


LOL you have no idea how RNG works.

AGI effects RA crit rate. DEX does not. Its not a big ??? its a know fact and has been tested and proven. It also does not scale like melee crits.

[Byrth]

Ranged Crits are just a 25% damage multiplier (without Dead Aim, which doesn't apply to WSs), while other melee jobs get something more like a 2x damage multiplier from crits against high defense/level enemies. The defense of the enemy has no bearing at all on the value of Ranged Crits.

AGI has been shown to increase ranged critical hit rate (which is why Jishnu's should have been an AGI mod). However, the amounts of AGI that you need to do this are astronomical. You're probably going to pull a 10-12% base ranged crit rate against most high level stuff you fight. Jishnu's innate crit rate boost has not been quantified, though it should be pretty easy to do.

Using these sets:
127 Base damage (Adaman Bullet) + 76 Base Damage (Annihilator Level 99) = 203 base damage before WSC
Last Stand : http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/283385 (+46 STR, +94 AGI, +62 RAtk)
- 110 VIT enemy on RNG/WAR with an RCB and assuming perfect TPing and augments: 1711 Base Damage*fTP

51 Base damage (Gargouille Arrow) + 117 Base Damage (Gandiva Level 99) = 168 base damage before WSC
Jishnu's Radiance : http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/283384 (+77 DEX, +67 STR, +36 RAtk)
- 110 VIT enemy on RNG/WAR with an RCB and assuming a 10% base crit rate boost from Jishnu's and 5% from Fencer with perfect augments: 1822 Base Damage*fTP with crits

Things unaccounted for:
* Annihilator has more RAtk, RAcc, and access to a useful aftermath. If the Velocity Shot enhancements work on WS (unknown then it also has that)
* Jishnu's base crit rate is unknown. I assumed 10%.
* My sets are very likely non-ideal. The question is whether they're more non-ideal for one WS than the other.

Edit: For the record, Rancorous Mantle is a minor improvement over Vigilance Mantle +1, if it is even better at all.

[saevel]

LOL you have no idea how RNG works.

AGI effects RA crit rate. DEX does not. Its not a big ??? its a know fact and has been tested and proven. It also does not scale like melee crits.

Then link proof on that fact. No info on azure underwear has proven such, nor any info on the WS's in question as proven such.

All info I've searched and looked into hasn't mentioned AGI effecting ranged crit at all.

I will submit that if AGI is the base for ranged crit then JR's mod sucks, otherwise I must go with the already established and documented information.

Also Taint, your better then this. Rather then scoffing and trying to use ad hominem you could instead post actual info that refutes the point given.

BG's wiki, the most complete list of current game mechanic information, doesn't list anything regarding AGI effecting ranged attack crit rate.

You might as well claim that CHR effects hate while your at it.

Now if you have information that is not there then you should update it to ensure that maximum information is provided to the community.

[saevel]

Ranged Crits are just a 25% damage multiplier (without Dead Aim, which doesn't apply to WSs), while other melee jobs get something more like a 2x damage multiplier from crits against high defense/level enemies. The defense of the enemy has no bearing at all on the value of Ranged Crits.

AGI has been shown to increase ranged critical hit rate (which is why Jishnu's should have been an AGI mod). However, the amounts of AGI that you need to do this are astronomical. You're probably going to pull a 10-12% base ranged crit rate against most high level stuff you fight. Jishnu's innate crit rate boost has not been quantified, though it should be pretty easy to do.

Using these sets:
127 Base damage (Adaman Bullet) + 76 Base Damage (Annihilator Level 99) = 203 base damage before WSC
Last Stand : http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/283385 (+46 STR, +94 AGI, +62 RAtk)
- 110 VIT enemy on RNG/WAR with an RCB and assuming perfect TPing and augments: 1711 Base Damage*fTP

51 Base damage (Gargouille Arrow) + 117 Base Damage (Gandiva Level 99) = 168 base damage before WSC
Jishnu's Radiance : http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/283384 (+77 DEX, +67 STR, +36 RAtk)
- 110 VIT enemy on RNG/WAR with an RCB and assuming a 10% base crit rate boost from Jishnu's and 5% from Fencer with perfect augments: 1822 Base Damage*fTP with crits

Things unaccounted for:
* Annihilator has more RAtk, RAcc, and access to a useful aftermath. If the Velocity Shot enhancements work on WS (unknown then it also has that)
* Jishnu's base crit rate is unknown. I assumed 10%.
* My sets are very likely non-ideal. The question is whether they're more non-ideal for one WS than the other.

Edit: For the record, Rancorous Mantle is a minor improvement over Vigilance Mantle +1, if it is even better at all.

I have seen zero info on AGI effecting ranged crits. If BG has this info then they should update their own wiki to reflect it rather then on page 110 post #8 of some obscure thread.

I've already stated that ranged crits were only +25% damage, the fact of the matter is they do count and are not a zero number. Your own posted info shows JR doing more then LS, which considering everything makes them about equal which is what I originally stated.

Also 10% would be low balling JR big time. All other crit mythics are 15% base @100 with some being higher @200 (effects Fencer and moonshade bonus). VS was nerfed to 10% AFTER it was created. 15% seems to be a very common and acceptable number to use, I'd suggest you use it rather then shorting JR. Also why the f*ck are you using Kote on JR? Should be athos's gloves for the STR /DEX and +3% crit rate along with +0.06 fTP per hit 4/8 of the time.

This is not a Archery vs Marksmanship debate, Marks wins easily due to the way ranged attacks work along with it's versatility. Anni is a better weapon, hands down, then Gandiva. This is a debate between the two WS's, JR and LS. JR works fine and the real problem between the two is the ammo not the WS.

[Byrth]

It appears that I added the information and a citation to bgwiki on December 5th:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Critical_Hit_Rate

I've continued the investigation in a thread that's abiguously titled "Ranged Critical Hit Rate Testing":
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/113755-Ranged-Critical-Hit-Rate-Testing

Also, you're being awfully offensive/aggressive considering I never claimed LS > JR. They look about even based off this.

[Karbuncle]

I remember reading the information and tests, I just can't for the life of me recall where i saw them.

I mean, I've been in a situation where I've been completely misinformed, but I don't think i've ever looped into a "PROVE IT" Cycle, thats just literally hitting the bottom of the barrel in regards to dignity and denial. Just accept this fact, every day we learn new things, its not too far fetched to assume we still may learn new things in FFXI As well.

So just accept AGI affects Ranged Crit, Its known, where its known? I Seriously can't recall the thread, But i do recall the tests.

I know its in BG Advanced somewhere, But denying it and going in a "NU Uh, PROVE IT" spiral just makes you look foolish. Asking for proof is.. Obviously understandable, but completely denying the possibility because it works against your argument.. makes you look desperate.

[saevel]

It appears that I added the information and a citation to bgwiki on December 5th:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Critical_Hit_Rate

I've continued the investigation in a thread that's abiguously titled "Ranged Critical Hit Rate Testing":
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/113755-Ranged-Critical-Hit-Rate-Testing

Also, you're being awfully offensive/aggressive considering I never claimed LS > JR. They look about even based off this.

Melph's test was on Nov 4th which was after the last time I did a JR build. It's good to finally have some tested info (thanks for the links).

Also it looks like much work needs to be done. If ranged crit is based on AGI as it seems then JR just got knocked down a notch, it's still on the same level as LS but it no longer will beat it and there is zero reason to make a gandiva (which I had already stated).

Again this isn't a Marks vs Archery debate as I've already stated several times that marks wins easily. As a WS JR is still good, just the DEX mod becomes somewhat stupid if AGI is the crit rate determiner for ranged attack.


Also, you're being awfully offensive/aggressive considering I never claimed LS > JR. They look about even based off this

Which is what I've said over and over again, that JR and LS were functionally identical. Yet some people have stated that JR is somehow *gimp*/ *weak* / so on and so forth.

[Mayoyama]

WTF this makes no sense. JR is as powerful as / nearly as (depending on gear and situation) LS for physical ranged WS. WF is highly reliant on some sort of +Fire Damage buff typically seen inside abyssea or voidwatch, it's also magic damage so favors COR by far. Ranged attacks are not "AGI Based", AGI only effects ranged accuracy and RNG has an A+ skill along with five accuracy bonus traits for a total of +60. If anything Ranged Attacks are "STR based" as they get double the fSTR bonus that melees get. The only reason you see more Marks Rangers is that they have more options (Anni / Arma) where as Gandiva is JR spam RNG only, both deal the same amount of damage but Marks has the choice of switching to magic or reduced-hate damage.

Yeah I realised my error with the agi/str thing after I posted but was too tired to log back in and edit the post lol. I guess the issue here is more to do with archery vs marks rather than the ws itself

EDIT: Apologies for causing a derailment of the thread (unintentionally). Its just that I have always liked bows on rng and keep getting told JR and my 90 gandiva (which I made back when lv cap was 90 and bows were viewed as still good) were a waste of my time (and I have on many instances seen JR been beaten by LS)

[Mayoyama]

Back on track with the thread topic, it is undeniable that most if not all relic ws need some form of overhaul... and this also includes several of their aftermaths (which dont last long enough.. even if they were useful). Even with the damage boosts from the higher level versions of the relics they still suck badly

Whether or not Mr Matsui and the dev team will eventually look into these is still to be seen (and this most likely will not be until well after march).

[Nebo]

What? No. It's not perfect or anything, and I agree it could use just a bit more of a boost, but it's actually one of the best relic weapon skills. I know that's not saying much, but it's an improvement over the other ones in the fact that you actually use it, lol.

No. Mercy Stroke is just as weak as all the rest of them (weaker than a lot of them actually). The only job on Mandau that uses MS is THF, and that's not because Mercy Stroke is the cat's ass. It's because stacking it with positionally restricted and cumbersome job abilities can make it not suck some of the time.

Do not mistake that for Mercy Stroke being awesome. The WS itself is crap which is why you see more exenterators and eviscerations coming out of Mandau than Mercy Strokes.

But Byrth said it best, just make these R/M/E dagger WS able to crit natively and problem solved.

[Sabaku]

Death Blossom.

I know, "lolRDM", but for those who enjoy it and utilize it, I feel that we could sacrifice some of the Magic Evasion from the effect for an increase in the damage. Red Mage has lower strength and attack (as well as gear options) compared to the other sword users. The modifiers are lovely, but we cannot utilize them (without sacrificing freedom of a support job) unless Death Blossom's attack power is greater.

[saevel]

No. Mercy Stroke is just as weak as all the rest of them (weaker than a lot of them actually). The only job on Mandau that uses MS is THF, and that's not because Mercy Stroke is the cat's ass. It's because stacking it with positionally restricted and cumbersome job abilities can make it not suck some of the time.

Do not mistake that for Mercy Stroke being awesome. The WS itself is crap which is why you see more exenterators and eviscerations coming out of Mandau than Mercy Strokes.

But Byrth said it best, just make these R/M/E dagger WS able to crit natively and problem solved.

Umm no. MS is actually good as far as WS's go, at least if you have a 99 Mandau. Exten is barely better and really depends on target and gear.

MS
3.0 fTP (4.0 DW) (two hits)
60% STR
+40% damage boost.
AM: +5% Crit (both hands)

Exten
4.0 fTP (5.0 DW) (5 hits)
100% AGI
Inflicts -20 accuracy.

At capped accuracy the chance of landing both hits on MS is 90.25%. The chance of landing all five hits on Exten is 77.37%. The real difference between them is the WSC, Exten's 100% AGI means you can stack the sh!t out of it, MS's 60% STR is nearly as good as you can double dip and get an fSTR bonus (until cap). Stacking MS with SA / TA just produces really pretty numbers, it's strong in it's own right. Those two WS's are pretty much dead even if you apply a 99 Mandau and STR Dagger.

[Louispv]

Cloudsplitter.

Adding +1 to a modifier for the ws adds 1 damage.

One
Uno
1
a single
less than 2

Seriously, what the hell were you smoking when you set that modifier up?

It's also weaker than primal rend, an older WS you can get with any weapon. You also need to multiply it's damage by around 6 to make either of them useful, but seriously, a 1 to 1 modifier to damage ratio is ridiculous.

[nyheen]

dont know why you people are saying JR weak, suck etc. like really? that WS is just as broken as LS. you guys talking like JR is far back like Namas Arrow. is this gonna end up being a gun vs bow thing because the wallOtext with math gonna make my head blow! o.o

[Karbuncle]

Snippit of Accurate information

Its a shitty Weaponskill... Its just "good" because most of THF Weaponskills suck ass, So its just the prettiest pile of poo in the room.

But its still poo.

Do in no small part because its A Dagger WS, and they all Suck compared to any other weapon. This is a problem more with 1 handed weapons in general, and most certainly dagger. Mercy Stroke is no better or worse than any other shitty Relic WS (most being 3.0/4.0 fTP 1-hitters), Its just surrounded by more poo than the other ones, so it looks good in comparison.

[Detzu]

Last time I did Qilin I believe I averaged something like ~1200 for Blade: His. Granted, hard to get into position for Innin when the thing keeps spinning around. It's not terrible or anything, it's just not "good".

Can't say as much for Shun since I almost never use it. Generally I have no real reason to I'm sure you can imagine, heh. I end up around the same as my Hi's though, it's just that I don't get the aftermath so I don't fire it off other than to show off.

I was actually speaking more in general since I average way, way higher than that using Upheaval on my mediocre WAR, and my THF's Exenterator regularly gets pretty close even though my gear for that job isn't stellar, either. (Exenterator also doesn't have the flaw of randomly giving derp damage because of a missed first hit) If I use Rudra's Storm on my SA or TAs that definately blows Hi away since those do 2000-3000+ pretty consistently.

Blade: Shun and Blade: Hi might both be far stronger than what NIN had beforehand, but it still doesn't come close to the WSs many other jobs have, even amongst 1Hers. Victory Smite, CDC, and Mercy Stroke are all better.

They both suffer from the same problem- they use a mod that don't also increase damage "naturally". Ex: DEX on CDC will increase the crit rate, STR on Ukko's will increase with the fSTR and attack etc. AGI doesn't provide any good melee stats (lolsubtleblow) and the DEX mod would be nice if Shun was a crit WS, lol.

What gears were you using, which atmacites? Last time I did Qilin as nin I averaged 1818.41 on Blade: Hi.
I had no buffs received beside Blood rage every 12 mins and warcry every 7 mins

[Trisscar]

Pretty much all of the quested weapon skills need some tender loving care.

[Hayward]

Most Sword, Great Sword, and Scythe WS could stand some work:

*Swift Blade--Add in some DEF/PDT- bonuses to the damage since it's PLD-exclusive
*Atonement--Raise or remove the damage cap and make it non-Elemental.
*Expiacion--Give BLUs a reason to use this outside of Chain Affinity.
*Death Blossom--Switch the Magic Evasion- effect to Magic Defense-. Also raise the STR mod to even out with MND.

*Shockwave--Make the sleep effect more certain against lower-level enemies.
*Ground Strike--Use Attack Bonus traits as multipliers for damage
*Herculean Slash--Increase damage and Paralyze potency.

*Cross Reaper--Add in a Bio or Terror effect to make up for the subpar damage.
*Spiral Hell--Use Attack Bonuses as a multiplier for damage. Give it a Contagion (any debuffs go from you to the enemy) effect as well.

[Yinnyth]

Every weapon skill should be re-examined, if you ask me. The game is designed to make our older WSs worthless. That's BS. There should be enemies out there who are weaker to fast blade than CDC. It's boring that we just spam the same WSs all the time no matter what the situation is.

[Demon6324236]

Every weapon skill should be re-examined, if you ask me. The game is designed to make our older WSs worthless. That's BS. There should be enemies out there who are weaker to fast blade than CDC. It's boring that we just spam the same WSs all the time no matter what the situation is.Some like Fast Blade naturally get out dated, others which enfeeble mobs are not made to enfeeble them well enough to be worth using, if they were then it would be something you may see from time to time. We do have different WSs better in different cases but not many of them, normally 2 per job, maybe 3. For instance my RDM uses CDC in Abyssea, Req on low defense mobs, and KoR on high defense mobs. WARs use Ukko on everything without a resistance to crits, and Resolution on everything with it, often paired with Mighty Strikes. Is it a very diverse amount? No, but there is a bit of diversity in it, and if enfeebling WSs were worth using, or we had a bit more diverse effects in our WSs worth using, then we could see them expand a bit. So do not think I am saying I do not want more diversity, I am simply trying to point out that we do in a way have some, just often ignored or not used.

[Yinnyth]

I would love if the debuff WSs got boosted to the point where they could be used for their debuff. But I'm trying to shoot the moon by asking for all WSs to be situationally useful. Then I'll go one-shot ADL's fake copy with wasp sting or some junk.

[ManaKing]

You have to realize that if all WS are useable or rather should need to be used, then people have to carry around the gear for all their WSs. Some of us just don't have that kind of space.

I agree that there should be WS diversity, half the reason for that has been outdated. WSs aren't important for their SC properties as a primary thought, only as a secondary consideration for more damage potential for SSC.

There are realistically 8 or 9 different kinds of WSs categories:

Physical Damage
Magical Damage
Critical Damage
Ignores Defense
AoE
Additional affect WSs
Stun
Drain WSs
Restore WSs



Physical Damage is the most basic. You hit the mob X amounts of times. The type of damage depends on what weapon yo are using. They can be ok, like Fast Blade, or they can be great, like Resolution. It just depends on the numbers. You can get additional attacks, but no crits. You can miss one or all hits of physical WSs.

Magic Damage is a single hit of magical damage. The type is determined by the WS. Usually INT vs mobINT affects their ratio, but not always. You can't get additional attacks, nor crits (magical or otherwise) but they are affected by MAB. You can't miss Magical WSs, but you can have them resisted to the point that they do no damage.

Critcal WSs are just like Physical WSs except that they can crit. Numbers are all that matters to determine if they are good or bad which is why plenty of weapons have multiple Crit WSs.

Ignores Defense is a kind of Physical Damage WS that ignores defense. The amount increases with the amount of TP used in the WS. They are 1 hit. Generally unused, even the Empyrean ones, because reducing defense isn't as practical as increasing Attack.

AOEs can be any kind of other WS type, but it affects an predetermined area that is intrinsic to the WS. While some AoEs share Ranges and Areas, there are many different kinds with different applications.

Additional Affect WSs generally do damage and do another affect as well. They can either do the affect as part of the WS by default or they can modify the additional affect by TP level. Either way, they still follow the guidelines of Physical Damage if they are Physical, magical if they are magical, etc. Sniper Shit lowers Int and TP can crit, so it is still a crit based WS, but it also does an additional affect. Shockwave is an AoE that sleeps targets. Additional Affects are just add ons. They can be good or bad, but generally they aren't useful because they don't do more than just doing better damage would do.

Stun WSs are a type of Additional Affect but they stun. They are always 1 hits and generally do bad damage to compensate for their utility. They were all phased out when Stunning with BLM and then later DNC became the norm. I.E. no one really wants them back because they would rather do damage with their TP. This would basically be the first example why we don't want every WS relevant. It is unpleasant to have to WS for stunning since it takes time to accumulate the TP for them and then you have to sit on them and wait to react to the mob. It was fun to stun gobbie bombs in Valkurm, but I don't want to go back to that.

Drain WSs are similar to Additional Affects, but they differ in 1 aspect. They lack WS properties. Sanguine Blade doesn't have WS properties Catastrophe does. That's about the only real difference between them, other than one is magical damage and one is physical damage.

Restore WSs are like Drain WS in that they don't have WS properties, but they don't do any damage to the mob because they aren't targeting the mob. Instead it targets the player.


There are only a couple of WSs that don't fall into those categories. Most of them are swords. Spirits Within, Atonement, Requescat, and Wildfire are about the only WSs that don't act like normal WSs.

At the end of the day, they can create new WSs types, but more than likely, they will just adjust what they already have. STR based WSs are always going to be good since you are double dipping. DEX based WSs that crit make sense, but just about any other stat is just for aesthetics and will be inferior to those two for damage output. Unless your job has an over abundance of something like MND on RDM or WHM for Requiescat or Realmraiser, those WSs are generally just not good, because that was how the game was programmed and when the WSs were designed, they didn't compensate.

When they change either level adjustment or defense or both, they will change how some of these work. Ignores defense might become good. WSs with heavy attack or damage boosts will probably still be good. Everything else may become subjective.

Will CT as a VIT based WS that Ignores Defense be worth killing Chloris among other things? Probably not. Quietus might be ok though. It is more of an issue of DRG vs DRK and STR vs VIT WSs.

[Yinnyth]

You have to realize that if all WS are useable or rather should need to be used, then people have to carry around the gear for all their WSs. Some of us just don't have that kind of space.
I assume you're being ironic because we all have exactly the same amount of space, and yet I, being your equal as far as space is concerned, am requesting this change knowing full-well the burdens of situational gear. Try BRD with no Gjallarhorn.

Fie on your inventory woes. We all have them, and unless FFXI ditches console support, we always will have them. Take your pick:
1. Every situation requires exactly the same strategy, but you only need one set of gear to optimize the strategy.
2. Every situation is unique and it is impossible to have the ideal gear for all those situations.

I pick #2.

[ManaKing]

I'm a RDM, don't talk to me about your woes. You CAN get a G-Horn much like I have an Excalibur. My inventory is still full as I get closer to ideal gear.

[Yinnyth]

Hrm... perhaps I'm not as good at making a point as I assumed I was. I'll try being more long-winded and complete. I'm not saying "woe is me, for my inventory problems are worse than yours". I'm saying we all have the same inventory available to us. It is not a situation unique to you.

Before I got Gjallarhorn, yes, I did carry around 17 instruments everywhere I went as well as idle set, fast song set, wind instrument skill set, string instrument skill set, cure set, haste set (for reducing recast timer on spells like cursna), hMP set, TP set, WS set, plus a couple pieces of MP gear so I could still cast raise while weakened. This was before mog sacks even. All of us feel the sting of limited inventory. I do not doubt that you have inventory issues on an epic scale, and I'll even concede that your inventory issues are worse than mine, but in case I'm not being overly clear about this: it's the same situation for all of us.

Yet I fail to see why limited inventory is a valid argument against making every WS in the game useful in some way or another. You could just as easily make the complaint that there aren't enough macro slots to accomodate all the gear swaps and WSs you'd have to use.

SE's new talking point is "fostering skillful play", and this is one area they could revisit to that end. There's only a handful of WSs that people use. Make the other WSs useful in their own, unique ways so people can make conscious and enlightened decisions about what WS they'll use and when they'll use it. This problem is pervasive in many areas of the game. There's only a couple of foods people use, there's only a couple of meds people use, there's only a couple types of ammo people use, there's only a couple party setups people use. These are all areas of the game ripe for change which would reward player knowledge, preparation and skill.

So again, fie on your inventory woes. We all have them. Why should that stop us from making changes which help "foster skillful play"?

[Yrusama]

I agree completely. I say this as a PUP: the problems aren't with the weapon skills. The problems are with the necessity for constant JA use and lack of gear. Then again, people all too quickly feel that the master's stats are all that matter.

[Tim]

I only have excalibur but I would like to see it improved. In my opinion KoR should be the most powerful sword weapon skill.

[ManaKing]

I agree we all need a larger inventory. I think 99 inventory would be enough for me, so long as I didn't obsess over situational items. I'd still have to pick and choose if I wanted all of my mage gear or all of my melee gear. Not all jobs have clogged inventories, but almost every mage/support job does because we have specialized gear for specific magic functions. I also refuse to give up my echo drops spot, ever. There are medicines that are needed for everyday play and hopefully there will be more, since they are adjusting medicated status.

----
KOR is in the same category that a lot of WSs are in. Single hit with high damage does little in a game where Ukko's is 2 hits high damage and can crit. Ukko's is probably the best designed WS to show off exactly how much WAR can do. You can double attack on both hits and crit on both hits for massive damage. It is really well designed to make a significant difference in output based on your WS gear.

If anything, all the Relic WSs need to be 2hit. Same things with the ignores defense Empy WSs. At least then you can get the chance at full assistance from multiple attack stats like double attack. It's also not as though a 2nd hit is all good things, but it would be an improvement. The 2nd hit wouldn't benefit from the increased accuracy from WSs so you might have to take different gear into consideration.

It's not like you can't have single hit WSs, but unless they are like Torcleaver, don't expect them to be used.....probably ever. The other thing you could do is adjust the elemental gorgets and belts so they increase 1 hit WSs by significantly more than multi-hit WSs.

It really does all come down to numbers, but how well those numbers are implemented determines how satisfied players are with their WSs. The most important thing for WSs is that they output the same amount of effort that you input. When you gear yourself to the absolute best that a WS can do and the damage is either underwhelming or largely inconsistent, you usually find unhappy players there. That's basically every Relic WS. You took the time to make a Relic and gear for their WSs and you find that you should really look elsewhere if you want the satisfaction of good WSing.

[Alhanelem]

I agree completely. I say this as a PUP: the problems aren't with the weapon skills. The problems are with the necessity for constant JA use and lack of gear. Then again, people all too quickly feel that the master's stats are all that matter.
I wouldn't say PUP has a lack of gear issue anymore. They get put on a majority of the stuff MNK gets these days. The only things keeping PUP from top tier are JA delay and inability to max haste for master and auto simultaneously- both of these things hurt quite a lot.

[SpankWustler]

I think Cloudsplitter really pulls ahead of the pack in terms of "being awful". A lot of disappointing weapon skills make sense in some kind of vacuum; there is no such mercy from Cloudsplitter.

Cloudsplitter is magical, like Wildfire. It is attached to the same tier of weapon as Wildfire, namely, an Empyrean weapon. It has a lower fTP than Wildfire until somewhere around 250% TP. It has no fWhatever, as opposed to the 2x fAGI value of Wildfire. Being attached to an axe makes Cloudsplitter impossible to use while wielding a weapon that profoundly enhances magical weaponskills, which is very much an option for Wildfire.

Yes, Cloudsplitter does have a 80% secondary modifier if the STR and MND are added together, but that means very little even on paper now that a bunch of weaponskills with 100% modifiers and combined fTPs of 4+ exist.

If Camlann's Torment and Quiteus were mentally challenged men who sorted glass or bussed tables to pay for modest apartments, never realizing the profound sadness contained within their lives; Cloudsplitter would be an invalid who uttered "wwwWWWWWuuuugggGG" in the general direction of his caregiver each time he soiled himself, overcome with joy each time he buried his face in a microwaved Swanson's chicken pot-pie.

Similar to the first bro who completed a level 85 Farsha, his caregiver would know a kind of despair that few can reckon.