On Red Mage melee... [Archive] - Page 6

Rayik

08-03-2011, 01:12 AM

This is the important point that a lot of people are missing.

Seriha, Supersun, and Hyrist disagree with me and I'm not accusing them of trying to destroy Red Mage. Duelle is the one trying to nerf Red Mage's spell selection and casting abilities. That is pretty screwed up, and I dare say I'm confident enough to speak for many Red Mages when I say that we will not stand for it. I could care less about a melee buff, provided that it does not nerf our magical aspect or take away development time from our magical aspects. The latter is still a big deal. Hours spent figuring out the balance and implementation of a new Melee ability are hours spent doing absolutely nothing for the successful aspect of Red Mage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he simply suggest a stance for melee? If you don't want to melee, don't use the stance, your spells would be just fine. Again, sorry if I misread his suggestion.

This is pretty off base. We miss all of, what, Cure V, Regen 3, and T5 nukes / -Ga nukes? Red Mage has an astoundingly powerful spell selection, all things considered. Especially because we're not shackled down with the same horseshit that Scholar is. Stances that simply increase melee potency or increase magic potency? That's fine. I can just fulltime the magic one, win/win. Stances that affect spell selection and/or nerf casting abilities/ranges? No.

Yeah, we get some nice spells, and everyone else in the game gets nicer ones. And yes, since you have no interest in melee, just fulltime the magic one. Win/win.

Chant du Cygne is the best Sword WS in the game. Use that. (inb4 getting WoE weapons is hard. Goes back to point #1, if Rdm melee sucks, get better gear and it won't suck. Every job is the same).

I'm working on getting this WS. I'm not putting my faith in SE to help our native WS, so it looks like if I'm going to really get anywhere with melee, I'm going to have to break down and get CDC. I still don't think we should have to finish an Empyrean weapon to get a decent WS, but that seems to be where we're at, so be it.

Greatguardian

08-03-2011, 01:14 AM

Red Mage has some of the best overall gear access in the game, it's actually one of the job's strengths. It can be geared to do just about anything, that's why it's on things like Atheling Mantle and Calmecac's. However, I strongly disagree with the notion that gear should be a prerequisite to do things at an acceptable level. That's what it comes down to, isn't it? Empyreans are just another piece of gear. WoE Weapons were specifically designed so that casual players can use the same Empyrean WS as everyone else. WoE weapons are not "High end", "Difficult", or "Limited" gear.

If a Red Mage wants to cast, he better have some staves finished. If a Red Mage wants to melee, he better have a WoE sword. If anything, it's easier to finish than a single Magian Staff =/.

Rayik

08-03-2011, 01:15 AM

Yes. Meleeing is indeed an option. Every job in the game can do it.

And not every job in the game has self-only enhancing spells solely for melee, and JA abilities that contribute to it. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Rayik

08-03-2011, 01:16 AM

Greatguardian

08-03-2011, 01:18 AM

Empyreans are absolutely not "just another piece of gear" if it grants the most powerful sword WS in the game.

1) WoE weapons. Casual content. Easier than a Magian staff.

2: You're posting really fast so I'll just move this here,

Edit: You posted as I was writing, so yes, you did misread Duelle's suggestion. Rather, you missed an important tidbit he keeps putting in and then trying to ignore when people read it and realize what he's saying.

He doesn't just want stances. He wants to split the Red Mage spell library in two and only give access to certain spells when under certain stances. In particular, he has mentioned only making Blink and Stoneskin available while in Melee stance, and has made allusions to other significant spell cuts to magical Red Mage.

It's like Scholar's Arts/Addendum system except even worse for the player.

Rayik

08-03-2011, 01:25 AM

1) WoE weapons. Casual content. Easier than a Magian staff.

2: You're posting really fast so I'll just move this here,

Edit: You posted as I was writing, so yes, you did misread Duelle's suggestion. Rather, you missed an important tidbit he keeps putting in and then trying to ignore when people read it and realize what he's saying.

He doesn't just want stances. He wants to split the Red Mage spell library in two and only give access to certain spells when under certain stances. In particular, he has mentioned only making Blink and Stoneskin available while in Melee stance, and has made allusions to other significant spell cuts to magical Red Mage.

It's like Scholar's Arts/Addendum system except even worse for the player.

Yikes, I did misread then. I could understand if it were only while under the effect of a stance, but completely chopping our list in half is pretty cruddy. This game has come too far to see any job get such a massive overhaul, especially a primarily negative one.

And yeah, I'm on my lunch break at work, so I'm pretty much just on here posting. In case I dind't make myself clear before, I don't want the mage-side of RDM to suffer. I enjoy meleeing when the option is viable, but I didn't get to 90 just meleeing. I'd be okay with something optional, like a stance, but I think that's even pushing it at this point.

When I next log into the game, I'm going to start getting my trials together for a CDC sword. No sense making any further arguing or fighting when a perfectly viable option exists in-game to do what I want to do. I'm glad to have a discussion on the ins and outs of the job, but I'm sick of fighting. Maybe my coffee wore off.

Crimson_Slasher

08-03-2011, 01:30 AM

I should avoid wall post of death. Simply there are other hybrids that do many functions with ease, we dont NEED to melee. But if we are to melee as we want to, we NEED to do it better. Sure an empy ws solves some hurt but as many say, we should have something to use until then or have a second option other than doing a empy/mock weapon. The renovations we need to melee come with more opened native ws, access to more daggers, and most of all, more standardized melee-able gear. While some dont want us to melee better, or think we dont, some of us do think we need it, and as nice as it would be to have a special role to fill that needs our brand of melee, we cant expect it and i for one would just like to when able to, be able to slap on the melee gear i do have, and help my dd buddies tear into things. Not because melee is cooler, or more powerful than magic, but because it can be sustained longer without rest compared to magic. In short, more gear, more native ws, maybe a stance or trait to offer a boost to meleeing. Thats what i want most personally. Short, simple, to the point.

cidbahamut

08-03-2011, 01:43 AM

Yikes, I did misread then. I could understand if it were only while under the effect of a stance, but completely chopping our list in half is pretty cruddy. This game has come too far to see any job get such a massive overhaul, especially a primarily negative one.
And thus we have come to an understanding.

Karbuncle

08-03-2011, 01:45 AM

Rayik

08-03-2011, 01:51 AM

This topic moves fast, Anyway, to Rayik i think.

Yes, This is an Role-playing game, The point I was trying to make is that sometimes the Roleplaying the game wants you to do and the Roleplaying you want from the game is not the same. This is the case with RDM in FFXI.

Thats all i was saying

Agreed, but the role-playing most of the melee-RDM's want to do stems from an archetype created by the game, and that's where we're running into problems. We didn't just up and decide as a group "Hey! Let's all use swords! Game mechanics be damned!" the inspiration and imagery comes from within the very game that works against it. We're not just whipping out polearms and complaining, we're trying to make better use of what the game gave us in the first place.

And, I'm just a fan of the spell-casting swordsman. It's my favorite fantasy archetype, and the main reason I leveled RDM in the first place. Had I known back then that the game itself doesn't really support that play style, I likely would not have leveled the job. But that's just my experience.

Seriha

08-03-2011, 06:05 AM

However, I strongly disagree with the notion that gear should be a prerequisite to do things at an acceptable level.

I'm confused. For all the talk of how if one should want to do X, they need to chase gear for X, you say something like this? One of the biggest arguments has been the overall gap between having and not having such gear, though, and that ties into issues relative to skill ratings, native WS, inventory space (much to your chagrin), actual performance with said gear (which inspires, or doesn't, others to help a RDM get it), and so on. The job's starting point isn't much of one, and we all saw how Doom's party emphasized the current gap, inequality in all party members or not.

I chuckle at the repeated reasoning that the old job description is invalid simply because it's old. This debate is not young by any means. In fact, it's gone on so long that we get people like Tybud skipping any sense of decency and reason because a few years ago someone disagreed with him on Alla, so now he'll just swoop in now and then with all the insults and profanity to "get to the point" like that will mysteriously make him right or suddenly get us willing to listen. Seems similar applies to Drjones, and Eeks never did clarify about his little crush on me when I asked about it. So, I can't help but feel a little bit of selective memory is being exercised when it comes to the age of these arguments.

That said, while the ideas have changed over time with some of the game's overall changes, the core desire really hasn't. Much as I disagree with Due's concept of stances with negatives, I can at least look at him and think he's trying instead of shouting things like "waste" or "impossible" like some are. We know the negatives. You know the negatives. Flex some imagination, play along. How would you make it work? Put those big brains to use, not just the big mouths. At least Karb's tried now and then, but admittedly there are times I question the sincerity given later postings. For all the kvetching about Q&As with bad questions or ideas, why not try to be the good ones? And no, washing your hands of the subject is not an option.

Greatguardian

08-03-2011, 06:51 AM

Hyrist

08-03-2011, 07:44 AM

As I mentioned earlier, I would be perfectly content with mutually-exclusive JAs which toggled Acc+15/Attack+15 and MAB+15/MAcc+15. Would it "fix" anything about melee? No, but it would buff it and help it do what it already can do better, while keeping Magical buffs in the loop.

I'd like to see more than this, for both sides, honestly. RDM already gets ACC+15 on composure, and really isn't suffering all that badly from accuracy problems. I'd trade it for +15 base enspell damage though.

I'd like to think that any Rdm who was serious about wanting to melee would have unlocked Death Blossom at the very least. I don't think the job really needs Vorpal Blade as much as it needs more proponents willing to gear it up. Getting a WoE weapon is absolutely not hard for the vast majority of the playerbase. Is it time consuming? Sure. But it's certainly not impossible for anyone, of any playtime and any amount of resources.

If we're going to talk about Death Blossom as something as a valid requirement for anyone serious about RDM melee (I have it.) Then it needs to start being more impressive than what it is. Perhaps they can do that in the revamp of weaponskills in general to provide more of an impact, even if it's only in helping others. It's great that we have our own version of Ground Strike but it's pretty lacking even compared to Vorpal in some cases.

I am not opposed to the further encouragement of the melee camp wanting going out to get the CDC weapons, either one of them. They should.

Right now, the pervasive idea is simply that "No good Red Mages want to melee", or "No good Red Mages bother melee'ing". This does much more to damage your cause than any WS access or gear access. As far as I know, it's damn near true. What well-geared Red Mages have ever stepped up to the melee plate? Doom is the only one I know of in recent memory. You could very well say that more would step up if melee was buffed, but would they?

If it is given a purpose, yes. Right now, as stated multiple times, people refer to it as hobby level. Which means gear pursuits take a back seat to other pieces/job.

But if RDM has a job they can do their melee that is unique to them, then suddenly the persuit of martial gear stops being just something done for the fun of it. It becomes a part of what they offer to the group at large. Sure, chicken and the egg debate on whether groups would find it useful enough to encourage more to do it. But those who are on the fence or had desired for some more substantial back up from SE to take up this aim now would be given the go-ahead to improve on themselves with more earnest.

Hey, that's fine. But the only way to do that, regardless of what buff or nerf you give melee, is to actually provide examples of RdMelees that are well geared and successful at what they do. Even Doom's set could use improvement. No one's perfect, but it's not like I see many other people (here or elsewhere) trying to step up to the plate with their Red Mages.

This really makes me wish I played more. MMO's do not lend themselves well to a social life, however. I spent most of the past week catching up with friends I wound up neglecting trying to get back into the game earnestly. I just can't seem to balance that time well.

Seriha

08-03-2011, 07:44 AM

Again, though, that "No good RDM..." sentiment thrives on an omnipotence of knowing how every single RDM is playing at any given moment across all servers (Not everyone records videos, parses, or feels the slightest bit inclined to post/brag on a forum). One doesn't need to be a master of the job to put the pieces together and realize the shortcomings even if focusing solely on martial skills. That's why I've tried to argue it's a bit of a catch 22 in that the rarity of seeing "good" melees is in part hampered by a mix of the game and their fellow players knowing of those shortcomings, whether or not those opinions are rooted in actual fact/knowledge or just what they heard once somewhere. Players then love to get snippy over mob choice, location, party formation, and then same. Basically anything to try and undermine someone bucking the norm.

Anyway, you'd only need to glance at the census to pick at the numbers for CDC-capable weapons in circulation. From there, we can't really break down which acquisitions are solely for PLDs, BLUs, RDMs, and any mix of the three. I'd argue the hierarchy would follow BLU > PLD > RDM in terms of what people consider "mains" to themselves and how their peers would respond to gearing them for the betterment of their group/linkshell. By default, BLU has the benefit of unique Abyssea procs and better traits to back up melee, and even without Almace, can do some nice things like Whisker burning to help earn their keep. While PLD doesn't particularly shine in Abyssea, pairing them with an Ochain certainly boosts their potential as well as serving as a reasonable preparatory step for the 91-99 push and eventual new-endgame. What is the ultimate benefit for RDM, though? "Melee fodder, magic bosses"? And if all you tend to do is fight "bosses" on the job with others? If such can come off as a wasted effort to me, I don't find it all that unreasonable for others to feel similarly. Delegating a melee RDM to a career of magian trials or old content because of the current state of things just doesn't strike me as a good motivation. Sadly, the FFXI I play tends not thrive on friendship and rainbows for gear acquisition, but instead point systems, priorities, and some unfortunate favoritism.

If the counter-argument to that is to simply get better friends or an LS, that's much easier said than done. The last resort is the PUG game, and... well, we know that can pretty much be like playing the Mog Bonanza in terms of success and failures (Nevermind actually being able to play RDM in the process depending on what presents itself). I am, unfortunately, more inclined to feel we're all greedy on some level and possess a particular distaste for anything that slows personal progress. That ugly facet of ourselves has reared its head many times throughout this thread. When you can curb that, that's when people start to get more accepting. Such is what takes Almace from toy status for us to an upgrade that benefits anyone we play with. Of course, I also feel we shouldn't be solely relying on a single weapon/WS to accomplish that, and in turn attempt to advocate other tweaks that might not mean so much individually, but collectively they complete the package.

Supersun

08-03-2011, 07:54 AM

The biggest problem I have with the "just get CDC" argument is that it only looks at the short term.

I'm highly skeptical that weapons at 99 are going to get beaten by an Almace (85). That's just poor design.

I suspect that the Almace trials from now on are going to be a bit tougher then what your average person can obtain.

While WoE is still an option I really don't like the prospect of one sword being glued to my main hand to melee on any decent level.

Believe it or not there are situations sometimes that call for a non CDC weapon. Unfortunately in those situations you have to gimp your damage so much that melee Smns could likely do more then you because our Sword WS / Dagger selection is pretty terrible.

While the, just get an Almace, card works for now I can't see it being realistic at 99. People just aren't going to be willing to help a Rdm upgrade an Almace past (90) as long as it's just a toy.

I'd be very surprised if further magian trials for the Almace keep their current...soloability.

Seriha

08-03-2011, 07:59 AM

Yeah, the unknown curve is something we need to be concerned about. Could it be something as "simple" as 50 Hahava kills? I don't know. Bluntly, I'm not looking forward to the promotion of inter-group competition like the current progress of mob drops can inspire. There's nothing fun about killing Bri and Sobek 30+ times for one person, let alone Apa 40+. Is it a "trial" in the pure grind sense? You bet. Is it an actual fun trial? Lemme consult a magic 8-ball on that one.

Karbuncle

08-03-2011, 08:04 AM

So what do you guys feel would be a big enough buff to RDM that would make it melee worthy? I'm not here to shoot down ideas, I'm just curious if any of you know what RDM would actually need to become a capable Melee.

Melee DD is the hardest spot to fill in FFXI, Because so many jobs can do it.

What would you give RDM to make it unique/powerful enough to be streamline DD?

I'm not asking to shoot it down, in fact you'll get no criticism from me on it. i'm just wondering with all the back and forth if any of the Pro-melee crowd even knows what they're asking for, or if its just "I dunno i wanna sword things".

Greatguardian

08-03-2011, 08:15 AM

If we were to talk about job hierarchies in a group scenario, then every single Almace ever made is simply a waste of a Kannagi. Every Twashtar is just a waste of a Ukonvasara. Every scythe and every polearm is a waste of a Verethragna. Rationing gear in this manner tends to happen when there is the assumption that the gear is actually difficult or time consuming to get.

Would I help a BLM friend get a Claustrum? Good lord, that would be a tough call. Probably not.

Would I help a BLU friend get an Almace? Sure. It's all of 2-3 days work for me and 2-3 other friends. Keep in mind, I consider BLU an absolutely worthless job as far as I'm concerned so there's no real difference between getting a BLU an Almace and getting a RDM one to me.

You're also precluding the fact that WoE sword is soloable, and much easier for the casual player to obtain. You don't need friends to help with that. Will it make it easier/faster? Definitely. But you don't need them.

My FFXI thrives on friendship and rainbows for gear acquisition, and I sincerely do feel sorry that it is not more common. I've finished multiple BLU and PUP +2s today for friends, while working on COR junk myself. I'm lucky, though. I have solid friends that I've known for a very long time, and who don't mind helping each other out. They may not all be very good at the game, but they're all smart enough to put away their egos for five minutes and let me or someone else more knowledgeable help them with gear or whatever else they need to better themselves.

Eeek

08-03-2011, 09:24 AM

Hyrist, Seriha, Supersun - you three are hemming and hawing too much. If you all want to be acceptable melee RDMs, just go out and f**king do it. Go out, improve your melee sets, and get CdC. Badelaire +2 can be done on one's own time, and Almace is piss easy to complete up to the Apademak stage (and even he's not that bad).

The three of you are simply equivocating and theorycrafting/daydreaming instead of playing the game, having fun, and improving yourselves. Nothing in this life, in-game or otherwise, is permanent. We all had to radically regear our characters between the 75 days and now. Gear standards and selections will surely change on the road to 99 and beyond. Whatever your characters have right now will be pretty damn worthless the day the FFXI shuts down.

Everything and everyone you've ever loved will someday die.

Paralyzed into inaction is no way to go through life, in-game or otherwise. Go forth and live.

Seriha

08-03-2011, 09:40 AM

So what do you guys feel would be a big enough buff to RDM that would make it melee worthy? I'm not here to shoot down ideas, I'm just curious if any of you know what RDM would actually need to become a capable Melee.This is where you'll unfortunately not find a unanimous answer.

On the base level, the job needs to grow better. Blah blah Abyssea to 90 in a day blah blah, but just breaking down our martial growth leaves things primarily reliant on sub and gear. Prior to Composure, I'd fished for an ACC trait, maybe two. Our native skill leads to an ATK deficiency, so a trait here wouldn't go unwanted. Unsurprisingly, this doesn't stray too far from GG's notion of an ACC/ATK stance. Though, I'd argue we wouldn't really need the MACC/MATK in kind since we've long had that value MATK and then some. Of course, the MACC is still absent, though arguably unneeded until we step into HNMs like how Tiamat was.

But yeah, we'd hit a smidge harder, and at minimum, be 5% more accurate. Rationally, we can look to Enspells as our compensator for missing ATK, but resist rates and native MDB can cut into this potential significantly. We also know the T2s suck, both for their on-strike reliance to Enhancing Skill and in how their utility function is ass backward. Continually landing Enblizzard should be lowering Ice resist, not Fire, since odds are Fire weak mobs are strong to Ice, thus diminishing the already shoddy damage potential. From here, we also know Enspells don't play nice with Sambas, which means a melee RDM partying with a DNC can be wasting some potential. I'd also like to see Enspells apply to WS in some way, even if it's just a plain +ATK based on their damage, but I'd dare say the "dream" would be a variable elemental WS that changed element and SC properties based on your enspell.

Next basic point would be our gear. Haste is kinda scarce sub-70, so our differences tend to settle more on ACC or ATK, with dagger being a pretty shoddy weapon for WS without Evisceration and sword not being too far behind (especially without the EX WS). A lot of jobs show up on Dusk, yeah, but in the old game, others continued on to Homam, Haidate, other abjuration gear, and eventual game progressions from there where Goliard body, Turban, and Swift Belt became some more economical options, but obviously not enough to get people to turn heads.

Now, I could continue to prattle on about how better, more readily accessed gear would help, but it's a no brainer. Everyone would like more ATK, ACC, and Haste in hopes of branching off to other things like DA/TA, Crits, STP, and things other jobs have begun to. Personally, I'll never shake the notion that appreciable damage isn't important to this equation. We've got years of the "TP Feed!" argument fueling that, and people more readily respond to outright damage than some damage with utility. I can grasp that RDMs shouldn't be competing with WARs, MNKs, SAMs, and so on, but also acknowledge that damage flavors can come with things like WS/SC options where even RDM was better than it is now, Sword and Dagger wouldn't be able to outright emulate. So, on some level, these jobs are "safe" in maintaining some identity, even if they may never look at themselves in such a way.

But okay, let's say we take those baby steps, now what? We could edge further toward damage with spells that up personal DA/TA rates, Crit, Subtle Blow, and so on. Not the most imaginative options, sure, but they could help. Things start to get trickier when you look into utility options, however. What would "justify" maybe giving up 10% of a dedicated DD's output? Some call for enspells inflicting debuffs of their given element, but if Enstone couldn't beat Slow II or stack with it, what's the point? We also know debuffs aren't particularly called for on fodder, just slap a Dia if you can remember to and plow through it. I haven't actually touched on our casting burden at this point, but I would hope you'd seen me talking about extending the duration of buffs without requiring our AF3+2 set as part of our "growing" process and still fall back to my earlier notion of enspell fueled stances favoring either offense or defensive styles. Basically it buffs what we do now instead of outright creating new things, which could possibly be more difficult for SE to do with limited resources.

Part of theorycrafting, though, risks yanking things from other jobs. As I've said before, a lot of DNC's step abilities would've made sense for RDM to get natively if the job didn't exist. Prior to SCH, we'd also wanted a way to AoE buffs. Enter Accession. Heck, BLU also got Diffusion. The ability for nukes to contribute to SC creation is also something we'd asked for, but BLU and SCH have also received this idea in some form. Looking at Menifesto notes, you see people bitching about how WAR might get an ability to force a crit. How much could we justifiably "steal" as a class of current options out there? Sure, at the moment there's no means to offer an Addle-like effect to TP moves. No job can presently manipulate a mob's level, either. You could tie melee integration into these abilities, but some will be resentful that it does require stepping up, that it would require them chasing physical gear sets if they wanted to continue being a "good" RDM. As I sat here thinking about the WAR note, why not debuffs that could change a mob's weakness in respect to Slashing, Piercing, and Blunt? Though, I would say if such did tie into melee (based on the weapon type we were using), we'd need a definite bump in Clubs and club options since we're mostly on the low damage/mage clubs.

...and since this post is already long enough, I'll stop for now.

Scuro

08-03-2011, 07:49 PM

RDMs Melee? lulwut? I thought that was BLU?

Doombringer

08-03-2011, 08:21 PM

i'd like to start by giving rdm native access to vorpal blade. i know some have asked for a new elemental weaponskill to play off the magey side of things.. but vorpal blade is right there.. besides, is it such a big deal to melee in melee gear?

then a new tier of enspell, one that's actually... you know... good.... or just remove the multi-hit restriction from enspell2, and make it calculate damage on CAST, not on HIT.. again.. why should i wanna melee in my enhancing gear? some people have mentioned that this conflicts with dnc and samba. i'd be willing to just shelf that concern for now.. i don't wanna build MY job around somebody else' ability... of course if people insist that this IS a big deal, we could add enspell3 and keep enspell2 as is.. whichever.

i think my ideal enspell3 would be like karbuncles, but dealing non-elemental damage with just the added effects being tied to the stated element. this way you don't get forced into a "bad" enspell or a "bad" buff/enfeeb. this would also reconcile my view of rdm with the se manifesto.

then i'd like rdms native sword skill brought up to A-, equal to blu's. it's a small difference but it's the principle of the thing...

then some mechanic to further mitigate spell cyclings effect on melee. there's a ton of ways to do this and i'm just gonna rattle off a few in no particular order:

1) give rdm a job trait that allows them to swing during casting. the ideal form of this trait would just ignore the fact that the rdm was casting and he'd swing away normally while the spell happens as a seperate action. i'm not sure if this would suck or be overpowered or be just right... considering you can't wear melee gear and casting gear at the same time... it SORTA balances itself out... they could also make it so that the rdms delay timer keeps ticking away while casting, at different rates as stronger levels of the trait are gained. (so your melee can still happen while casting, but it is slowed during the cast. as you lvl the "slow" effect weakens.) this is easily the most far fetched and unlikely.

2) just make composure effect everybody already... the af3 can then add greater duration on top of that. it's just plain easier to cycle spells when everybody is on the same duration anyway. this seems like something that should have already been done, to me..... i just don't see how it could ever be overpowered.. so why not?

3) auras! this ones my personal favorite. make any buff cast on the rdm, into an aura effect. (maybe make it a part of composure?) this saves time by cutting multiple hastes and maybe even a refresh or 2 out of the buff cycle, and allows me to grant buffs i couldn't before. i like this because it blends my vision of rdm with SE's manifesto. add gain-___, bar, phalanx, and whatever else SE adds to our list, even if self cast only (cuz this then MAKES that aoe).. and you're at least a bit closer to that "demi-god" benchmark. then consider mp and time saved on spells i CAN give? protect5, shell5, haste, refresh2 and regen2? granted regen2 isn't very dramatic but across 3-4 melees, for the duration/cost of 1 self cast? that adds up. and who knows, maybe we'd get 3 eventually? this ability could even serve double duty as a backline utility. you save less on hastes but more on refresh. swap the gain-str/dex for a gain-int/mnd. bars, phalanx, and regen may not be as important outside of aoe range but eh.... never hurt, right?

4) aoe spells, or a job ability to turn spells into aoe's. fairly self explanatory.. hard to get excited over after i imagine how auras would work.. but also probably less far fetched.. since this.. you know... exists on multiple jobs already..

EDIT 5) duh... just ramp up fast cast... this would be the least effective if taken on it's own but it's also almost definitely gonna happen at some point in the future. can't hurt.

i would see this as a good start for a front-line buff. it still wouldn't make rdm a DD, but is thf a DD? is dnc a DD? and all the while, absolutely none of that harms a backline only playstyle, while (imo) not being SO drastic as to require a negative "stance" effect to balance it out.

also.. if i stole your idea.. i'm sorry. a lot's been thrown around in this thread and i've read all 127 pages... i may well have "made up" one or more of these ideas while in fact i'm just remembering it.

Swords

08-04-2011, 01:48 AM

Here's something that has kind of irked me over the course of the whole RDM melee debate, and that mostly stems from the requirement to utilize staves for any drastic situation. While having them in times were backlining isn't really an issue, it does create a plethora of problems for any one trying to melee. Even though we definitely don't need the affinity boosts from the staves for melee fodder, we still lose out on our biggest cure potency booster piece. In either case our dependency on the elemental/ToM staves put us in a bind, so I thought of two ways we might get around this.

1. A new Job Ability/Trait that eliminates the loss of TP gained when swapping weapons/sub-weapons.

This could open up a new door for the melee side, not just because it allows you to freely swap out weapons so you can optimally utilize staves when necessary, but it also allows the melee side to swap out TP gaining weapons and then throw on your most powerful sword/dagger to WS with. I don't know how well it could be implemented but it definitely adds flexibility.

2. Create gear that can come close too or match the potency of the staves that utilizes non weapon slots.

I know what your thinking, wouldn't that just force RDM further backline and create more balance issues, well yes and no. I was thinking of restrictive gear much like how hooded robes prevent you from equipping headgear, only this time the gear prevents you from equipping certain weapons (In this case Staves). Another alternative to this was the boosts could come from a latent effect such as having a Sword or Dagger equipped, or when staves are not equipped.

These are just some random ideas though, nothing set in stone and I really don't expect them to be an endgame changer especially with our heavy casting load, but it does increase our options a bit.

Supersun

08-04-2011, 03:50 AM

Doombringer

08-04-2011, 04:39 AM

well... if they end up not giving us cure5... it shouldn't be an issue to start giving us more non weapon slot cure potency gear. wouldn't even need the other complications.

Hyrist

08-05-2011, 10:26 PM

What would you give RDM to make it unique/powerful enough to be streamline DD?

I'm going to be general and speak in goals rather than specific updates. I'm also going to focus on utility aspects instead of raw performance buffs to Red Mage's martial aspects, which, I do believe they should get (at least a small bonus) in addition to this, which can be done in the form of new physical performance spells.

There are three primary routes to utility through melee that can be offered.

1. Enhancements to treasure, as we see with Treasure Hunter traits and Bounty shot. I do not believe Red Mage should receive anything in this category.

2. The ability to enhance the party damage output.

3. The ability to lower or recover party damage.

All 3 utility tools in the game break down to these basic concepts.

For the concept of the areas I believe Red Mage should be allowed to melee, I lean more to the idea of an ability that helps increase damage output, but giving Red Mage tools in both categories would not be game breaking, if Red Mage is forced to choose between them for the situation.

As far as what stats would be powerful enough to be included in the front lines, the possibilities are broad. But I would like to see something that favors the lighter DDs who lag behind your typical dominating 2h DDs. Things like critical chance, critical damage, attack increase/defense down effects are all good things that favor faster strikes and multi-hit crit based weapon skills more. But if we're going for a more general approach, that can expand easily to things as simple as skillchain damage increases, raw damage-per hit increase (like a debuff that works along the lines of soul-eater in adding to base damage rather than as an additional effect, so as it doesn't conflict with sambas). Or some sort of buff that increases WS output in general for everyone across the board.

On the defensive side, enemy accuracy reduction, enemy attack reduction, something to regard TP moves, these can all be added onto an effect based on melee swings, in combination, that would not only offset the risk of enemy WS, but make Red Mage's damage contribution a low-to-no-risk addition to everyone but himself by virtue of being in AoE range.

As far as "Go out and do it." When I am on, and on Red Mage, that's what I do. I go for Procs, I open for skillchains, I close the ones I see were free, and I do this on top of other support functions. I focus on using my melee to enhance damage of those around me and function as a utility, rather than go "whee I can be a melee DD too!"

But Red Mage who do front line widely differ on what they want to regard RDMs front lines, but are fairly united in wanting to see a greater purpose for it. The ultimate decision of course lies with SE and I'd love to see some actual feedback from them on what they think on the matter.

Neisan_Quetz

08-06-2011, 06:22 AM

Enspells conflicting with sambas is a pretty big thing.

I'd almost rather them just restrict future enspells to the first strike and double the intended damage than letting it activate on all hits.

Sure you might lose a bit if you double attack or are dual wielding a joyeuse, but that's nothing compared to the +50% damage bonus you can lose by excluding yourself from haste samba.

Besides, it's not like single wielding couldn't use the buff anyway.

That's why I advocated for JA haste (if they were going to give a serious melee buff but idrc all that much), so even if you don't get Haste samba it's not as big a deal. Doing more damage doesn't really hurt either as long as it isn't 'overpowering', which SE seems to have a problem with.

Hyrist

08-06-2011, 06:38 AM

I'd rather just not the buff conflict, honestly. Additional elemental damage shouldn't come at the cost of JA haste. Ever since Dancer came out there's always been that enspell conflict. And I hated it.

Initial strike is the only way around it currently, and that only works dependably dual wielding, and EnIIs are still broken.

Supersun

08-06-2011, 07:43 AM

Doombringer

08-06-2011, 09:37 AM

Not gonna lie this is one of the most pointless ideas I've ever thought of

...but I want it anyway.

T3 enspells should give a sagasinger aura like effect on our sword with a color that matches the enspells element

...just because it would be awesome lol.

that WOULD be awesome.... while we're on the topic of awesome and unlikely.. how about an enspell that absorbs tp... if strong enough that would be a MASSIVE dmg buff for the rdm (all that free tp, even if you're stuck with death blossom/evisceration, is gonna add up) while at the same time giving the ability to severely mitigate the mobs tp moves. of course this requires that it drain more tp than the rdm feeds... wich is like... crazy overpowered.. but if it does any less then the rdm is still "adding" tp to the mob, so ppl could still complain..

alternately, what about an enspell that just destroys mob tp at some ratio of dmg dealt. so it deals non elemental dmg at whatever the normal enhancing calculation would be, then deals... half that much. to the mobs tp. (or a third or a quarter or whatever) in the end though.. for it to really change minds it still needs to destroy more tp than the rdm feeds.. wich would still leave it overpowered for solo play.

would be crazy useful though, even if it was just added on it's OWN and not part of a larger update.

Supersun

08-06-2011, 09:57 AM

I've actually thought about an enspell that absorbs TP.

It certainly would address the issue of a Rdm TP feeding and also boost their damage in the process.

It wouldn't even necessarily need to absorb more then the Red Mage deals. I mean other jobs feed some level of TP. This spell could just help lower Red Mage to more their level since Red Mage really does feed a ridiculous amount of TP.

There's a few issues with that though.

1) It would severely limit any kind of TP altering enfeeble in the future as this stacked with that would practically destroy the possibility of monsters TPing with the right set-up

2) It would be very difficult to balance. The spell would either give a very small amount of TP back or would virtually let Rdm melee solo stupidly difficult things from never feeding them TP. The spell can't ever pass 25% of your base TP since any more then that and 50% SB and +50 agility pretty much means you don't feed TP. The only way for it to pass 25% would be for it to factor in AFTER SB and Agi and well...if you are subbing /nin this spell will get destroyed since the TP will already be reduced quite a bit after SB and Agi. It would be VERY difficult for this spell to surpass the damage our current enspells can do while still keeping it balanced unless it did some form of damage itself.

Hyrist

08-06-2011, 10:46 PM

A TP damaging Melee skill, like all the other utilities, would have to function much like Sambas, in that it's more reliant on the players around us than us. A small portion of damage dealt by the party would deal damage to the enemy's TP.

The problem is, it would work identicle to subtle blow.

An Enspell that Drains TP would be superior to Absorb TP which they probably woulden't want to happen either.

And that's really the crux of it. Put bluntly, Dancer ruined enspells, and any idea of a melee utility will instantly bring up the idea of dancer itself. If there is going to be a frontline utility, it's going to have to bite the bullet and realize it's going to step on Dancers' toes a tad.

BUT, they have plenty. AND we were the origonal 'Additional Effect' job. So I'm not all that worried. It's the developers ya gotta convince... and they can get shy on that side.

Supersun

08-07-2011, 05:02 AM

Not necessarily.

Dancer only generally receives offensive melee utility (sometimes it receives some other types but are they very few and generally vastly unused).

Very few jobs receive defensive and magic utility connected to melee.

It's hard to connect magic utility to the front line because it doesn't actually do anything to enhance the melee it's connected too unless it's designed really well, and most situations where you would want that magic related utility are generally monsters that aren't safe to melee on. Not to mention there are a LOT of situations where anything you want magic related utility for you don't want people meleeing.

Defensive utility connected to melee is a pretty niche position. For non HNM monsters it's generally not that helpful as it doesn't really do anything to help kill the monster faster which is the only thing that matters in most non HNM situations. It's actually quite useful on HNMs if designed properly where the job meleeing for the utility is mitigating more risk then he's giving. The only issue is that this would be the exact opposite of what most people want Red Mage melle to be since this would be magic fodder, melee bosses.

For Non-HNM mobs not much else beats offensive utility. Yes, it does tend to be dancers territory, but at the same time jobs never 100% own any one role. There are always other jobs that have buffs of some sort that the primary job is lacking and a T3 of enspells could easily fill this spot. I mean it's not entirely unprecedented for enspells to receive some form of utility. It'd just be nice if that utility doesn't suck and is weaker and doesn't stack with a 1 sec cast from a spell from your /nin.

Though like I've mentioned they could easily move our melee to have a more magic related offensive and defensive utility if our damage became more magic based like giving us a powerful elemental WS and possibly making enspell T3s be heavily modified from mage stats and attributes (You'd still equip melee/haste armor, but you might opt for some more mage related buffs especially from Cor).

CapriciousOne

08-12-2011, 04:43 AM

I disagree Concerned4FFxi, we haven't had a increase with enspells since like level 50 and the orginals where below level 20. We should already had a tier 3 around levels 75-80 so tier 4 should be the final one for RDM. Since we really are the best in enhancing I don't see why there is a Enspellaga around level 50 that would've capped out around level 90 with a tier 3 version.

CapriciousOne

08-12-2011, 04:57 AM

That is kind of the whole point Mirage we rarely get to demonstrate that side of our Versatiliy because of all the whiny people.

CapriciousOne

08-12-2011, 05:05 AM

The thing for me isnt about being the best or average DD but the fact is that considering the recase timer on our most damaging spells and the high mp cost of such, physical damage is a more consistent and reliable way to damage a mob. Personally I think it is dumb to let anybody with a combat weapon skill B or higher keep thier weapon holstered. I hate leechers and as a RDM that can do more than be a freaking nurse that is exactly how I feel like i'm leeching. Sure I should probably be happy and just enjoy but that is what lazy weak people do and that isnt me. I much rather let the WHM do it thing with group heals and do what I can to help tank keep hate off of him and lighten his load, Especially since alot of WHM group spells cover more people for about the same mp as my single target spells but I guess that is "unreasonable" to some people. (sigh)

CapriciousOne

08-12-2011, 05:15 AM

Well personally I think we have more power than we choose or let the naysayers believe. RDM unite to form there own parties as well as dismantiling those that we are in by not healing and hasting is one way to force about a change but good luck finding people who have the fortitude to accomplish this despite the complaints and curses that will be surely thrown at them for it.

Truthfully, with or without new weapons/ weaponskills/ spells I think SE sees this as hugely a player base problem and thus "outside their jurisdiction" or sorts. In fact even if they finally do give us all that we ask for and even more it is sitll an issue of the community as a whole getting their heads out of their rears to see the world of possibilities.

Greatguardian

08-12-2011, 05:17 AM

There are plenty of other things you can be doing to benefit the group and keep yourself busy. It is not like your only two options are melee and Heal/Haste/Refresh/AFK. That's a dichotomy introduced by really, really crappy Red Mages that only know how to Heal, Haste, and Refresh and want an excuse to be worthless.

Eg: "Ugh guys, I wouldn't be such an absolute waste of oxygen if you just let me melee. Since you won't let me melee, I'll just sit here and afk while occasionally attempting to perform rudimentary tasks that you could train a chimp to do instead of actually playing the game because I'm spoiled and if I don't get what I want I'll just suck so bad that you'll be better off just letting me have my way no matter how terrible my melee is." - If you think I don't see this every single day, you're crazy. I have dealt with dozens of these people, and every single time I have determined that they simply are not worth my time.

I have zero sympathy for people who claim to be bored, or cite monotony with Red Mage. It is one of the most intense and involved jobs in the entire game, next to a properly played HNM-class Paladin. If you can't find anything to do but heal, haste, and refresh, I challenge you to find something to do. There will always be something. You will never be bored with it if you do it right. Kindly ignore the really crappy posters in here who talk about Haste-botting like its the only other alternative to melee'ing. They only come off as extremely incompetent Red Mages.

Supersun

08-12-2011, 05:44 AM

What do you expect? Half of those Rdms you know probably only leveled it as a ToaU meriting gravy train for pink birds where there pretty much was nothing else to do besides Heal, Haste, and Refresh with the occasional Dia III if your party didn't ***** at you because everything else you were going to do was going to be reflected back by those pink little birds.

Greatguardian

08-12-2011, 05:54 AM

If you want me to be perfectly honest, most of them leveled Red Mage just to melee as a magic swordsman because they liked the lore or somesuch. Then they were told that meleeing in full AF is absolutely not acceptable in any realm of possibility and proceeded to intentionally suck so bad at everything else that people will, they hope, stop caring and let them do what they want. All of the absolute worst Red (and white) Mages I have ever met have had a raging hard-on for Melee'ing.

I'm not going to make broad generalizations, though. I know they were individuals, correlation does not imply causation, etc. I was simply saying that the dichotomy drawn by Duelle and many others here between Haste-botting and Melee'ing is complete and utter hogwash, and that there are plenty of other (more efficient) ways to occupy oneself than melee'ing.

Straight up, any Red Mage that only Hastes, Refreshes, and Cures is a Monster Trucking horrible Red Mage.

CapriciousOne

08-12-2011, 05:55 AM

Which spell is better would solely rely on the type of mob being fought and the difference in level between the mob and the party since higher level mobs result in penalties often time in defense, accuracy, evasion, etc. X amount per level. I think I saw somewhere.

For instance if you are constantly fighting mobs more than 3-5 levels above you in a 3-6 perosn party then Enblizzard/enstone/enwater and enaero would probably be the most used ones overall.

CapriciousOne

08-12-2011, 05:58 AM

I suppose I could live with something like that, though I do prefer to throw out the occasional nuke over heal being familiar with the elemental weaknesses and all. Still it would be a manageable addition since it would be a main job JA and wouldnt be affectetd by subjob so I could still /dnc to override not being able to heal myself bc regen sucks to me when you can still Curing Waltz 3 since it wouldnt be covered by it being a JA as well.

CapriciousOne

08-12-2011, 06:08 AM

Well from what I've seen, discounting 2-handed weapon jobs that get an accuracty bonus as well as damage with delay as trade off, I feel red mage already accomplishes this even at a B skill. In comparison to say a PLD or BLU who i think both have an A in sword or at least BLU does or nin with Katana but has the advantage of native DW for reduced delay I feel RDM is comparable.

Simply put I dont think the fan base will ever be fine with it because simply put skill players can play the game in many different ways, even unpopular and uncommon ways and still be successful and clearly they dont fall into that category.

Greatguardian

08-12-2011, 06:18 AM

Why are you making a million disconnected posts back to back? Who are you replying to in them? What the hell are you trying to say and why does it take 10 posts to say it?

Supersun

08-12-2011, 08:11 AM

Please quote who you are replying to and please edit your previous post instead of posting back to back.

Rayik

08-12-2011, 10:53 PM

Please quote who you are replying to and please edit your previous post instead of posting back to back.

Whew, thought it was just me or I had whoever he was quoting blocked or something.

CapriciousOne, PLEASE give the context as to what on earth you are talking about!

Rayik

08-12-2011, 10:55 PM

Straight up, any Red Mage that only Hastes, Refreshes, and Cures is a Monster Trucking horrible Red Mage.

You keep saying this, and you never follow up. "There's so many things" is a cop-out if you don't elaborate. Please, tell us what else we're supposed to be doing when the mob is immune/resistant to our enfeebles, other than cure/buff cycle? Nuke? RDM nukes are weak, and more often than not I get asked to stop nuking so I have more mp to cure with.

cidbahamut

08-12-2011, 11:08 PM

Nuke? RDM nukes are weak, and more often than not I get asked to stop nuking so I have more mp to cure with.
I'm going to stop being snarky for a minute here and ask what your nuking gear and damage output on nukes looks like. I want to know how it stacks up against my own and learn where you're drawing the cut-off line for nuking damage being considered "weak". Are you just getting resisted a bunch or are the numbers simply too far behind say a Black Mage to be deemed cost-effective in your estimation?

Rayik

08-12-2011, 11:29 PM

I'm going to stop being snarky for a minute here and ask what your nuking gear and damage output on nukes looks like. I want to know how it stacks up against my own and learn where you're drawing the cut-off line for nuking damage being considered "weak". Are you just getting resisted a bunch or are the numbers simply too far behind say a Black Mage to be deemed cost-effective in your estimation?

Nuking has always been secondary and never has been a huge focus of mine. I play with my wife most of the time, and she's a BLM. So maybe my nukes aren't so bad, just look bad in comparison. But for the lulz, here's my nuking set:

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/226566

I did not go out of my way to "build" this set, this is just what I happen to have on-hand. Staffs are situational depending on the spell. Spiral ring just because it has the +5 INT and haven't had a need to upgrade. I just got the +1 AF3 body last week, haven't tried using it for the Acc over Augur's yet. My skill is around 300, before merits, so admittedly not capped.

So there, I have nothing to hide. I can admit when I'm gimp. When I'm on RDM, I'm usually called on to cure and buff cycle in the group of friends I play with. Nuking has always been secondary.

cidbahamut

08-12-2011, 11:47 PM

Thanks very much. It looks like you're rocking a bit more magic accuracy than I am, but a little less potency. I'm finding my current build is pretty solid on low-end mobs, dropping Blizzard IV for about 1.2-1.4k outside Abyssea and 2-2.5k inside. It's a little lower on NMs. I started looking over the numbers for some of the more resistant NMs though and the resist rate just left me totally discouraged so I'm looking to do some tweaking in the near future or just a build for resists in general.

My set as it stands right now: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/189566

I wouldn't worry too much about Black Mages making your nukes look bad, they're supposed to since that's all they've really got going for them. It doesn't mean you shouldn't bother though.

*shrug*

I enjoy it as something I can add to my mix of spellcasting. Then again I haven't seen other people's damage numbers in months due to chat filters so there's that too.

Rayik

08-12-2011, 11:53 PM

If my group has a dedicated healer, I'll toss some nukes to keep busy (and a little residual skill up is always nice). It's just that I play with RL friends and family, and more often than not I'm main healing on RDM with them. I get to melee RDM with my wife when we duo, but that's the only time outside of solo.

As an aside, I do incorporate nukes into my melee, usually at the start of the fight instead of just DoT pulling. I get around 900-1k on Blizz IV depending on the mob, which is around what my WS's do, so it's like a free WS. It's mostly when I'm soloing magian trials, which is why my skill is decent but not capped.

I should get around to working on my nuking more, but currently I'm gearing for 5 jobs, and nuking just isn't a priority.

Greatguardian

08-13-2011, 03:07 AM

Cid pretty much handled everything I was going to say. Red Mage is a fairly prolific nuker when geared properly. Personally, I keep multiple sets around for nuking, some for full potency on trash that I know my Macc will be capped on, some for full Accuracy and skill to avoid resists, and a hybrid set for low-tier NMs that I want to be a bit more cautious with.

There was a time, in between the 80 and 85 caps (Post-Visions, Pre-Scars) where Red Mage was the single most powerful nuker in the entire game. The only thing that really changed this was the introduction of Elemental Celerity to Black Mage and the multiple casting and recast time buffs they were given on AF3+2 with Scars release.

As for occupying oneself, there are a million buffs that Red Mage can and should have on itself pretty much fulltime. If the monster you're fighting is completely immune to enfeebles, make sure to keep Dia 3 up at the least. If you're fighting an NM, nuke it. If you're fighting trash mobs, pull more and Sleep/Enfeeble them so that they're ready to go when the current mob is dead. If someone else is pulling, sleep/enfeeble everything they bring in or pull with them if they're too slow.

Red mage has the ability to do just about anything, so it's really only a matter of identifying what you can do to increase the group's efficiency in any given situation. It's never always the same thing. Frankly, if you're fighting a larger NM with both a WHM and a RDM and the RDM really has nothing else to do since it's completely immune to Enfeebles and the White Mage is handling Cures/Hastes, you're better off running to another part of the zone and solo'ing a Timed/T1 NM that the group needs while everyone else is fighting the big guy.

Before Mnk+WHMMule and the advent of Razed Ruins, RDM was able to solo almost everything in Abyssea and still has the potential to do so when under skilled hands. If you don't know how to pin properly, I would attempt to learn by practicing on low tier things like T2 outside VNMs. I would also work on identifying good pin locations in any area where you think you'd be solo'ing. Considering Red Mage is easily the most self-sufficient job in the game, there really is always something more you can do with it.

Supersun

08-13-2011, 04:58 AM

It's not that Rdm is terrible at nuking as much as it is that nuking is terrible outside of abyssea.

Certainly T4 nukes are a big step up from T3 nukes, but even then elemental magic is pretty much the most inefficient source of MP to damage in the game.

Unless I have more MP then I know what to do with I can't generally ever justify nuking outside of abyssea especially when as long as I'm not a danger with my TP feed my meleeing will do around the same if not more for an even petter price, free.

People say that melee is something that only helps on things that don't matter, but there's an event being adjusted in the next update where it matters quite a bit, WoE.

Pulling and nuking in WoE...isn't the best use of your time and unless you need to enfeeble a monster to survive you are just going to be lowering your overall points (taking damage is pretty much the best way to earn points, or at least it is at the moment).

That and meleeing also is a great source of points once you've capped curing (which you likely will on yourself already from converting).

Greatguardian

08-13-2011, 05:03 AM

The benefit of nuking is that you can do it without having to be within reach of the monster. If you are within melee range anyways and the monster is nowhere near dangerous, then yes, nuking is a terrible source of damage. If you are very specifically trying to stay out of the danger zone, then melee is completely out of the question regardless and Nuking + DoT is significantly stronger than DoTs alone.

I don't really like comparing the lolCampaign/WoE point systems to standard gameplay so I'll just give you that one, acknowledging that you can't really apply that to anywhere outside of those systems.

Supersun

08-13-2011, 05:21 AM

I will admit that Campaign/WoE is a different game in of itself. Though if any future systems are developed where minions need to be dispatched in order to reach the main baddie (dungeon crawl perhaps?) then melee will always shine in those situations.

(Excluding random maps and random monster placement like Nyzul where efficient reconnaissance and pulling is pretty much the king)

TRiPP

08-20-2011, 12:40 AM

I read up to page eight, then skipped to the end, so if I missed several ideas and what have yous. My apologies.

I did read some of the ideas, and I thought some were great, and some others well, not so much. However. I would like to think fixing the situation with Red Mage and meleeing would be as simple as making us our own class*.
I agree the gear is in question sometimes harder to gather than most gears for DD. Without Subtle blow on some certain mobs it could be disastrous. (So on top of needing haste gear, we would also need subtle blow.) Great, there's a couple of rings out there and a small amount of gear that may allow you to use Subtle blow, but not haste and subtle blow at the same time. HOWEVER, my thoughts are this. Red Mage's ARE the red headed step child of the classes, we're disliked for one reason or another, or simply just scoffed at. (lolrdmnukes/lolrdmmelee.) However, my suggestion to SE is this:

If you want to fix Red Mage's problems it's simple, no really it is.
First off; remove spells from being meritted, make them buyable. (Not something extremely retardedly priced mind you.)
Give us a TRAIT that ENHANCES enfeebles. So we're not stuck having to choose what kind of Red Mage we want to be. (Having to choose between fully meritting Phalanx II, Slow II, Paralyze II, Bio III, Dia III is a headache on it's own.) Sure, some say that you should have Phalanx II fully merited. Great for you. However, when it comes to enfeebles, you want your stuff to be more potent. Even then it's useless because it doesn't proc as much or it just outright gets resisted. (We're suppose to be great at Enfeebling* and enhancing*.)

Something else... With merits allow us to merit into Fast Cast and Composure. In b4 "Oh noez dat wouldz make RDM overpowerz lulz." It wouldn't. Then by the logic of those who say that it would make Red Mage over powered, then should we strip Triple attack, Double Attack and Store TP from Thief, Warrior and Samurai? Cause that makes them over powered. Don't like it? Shame, so why assume the same for us. As for meriting Composure. It's simple. Each merit would increase accuracy and damage as well as Subtle Blow by a certain percentage. (Not stating any accuracy and damage percentage. Use your assumptions and imaginations.) On top of that allow Composure to let us Red Mages use later tiered Weapon Skills. (Vorpal Blade, etc.) Possibly including Dagger as well.

Agreed on giving Red Mage fencer, in fact it should of been given that from the get go. Instead it's given to Warrior (great axe anyone?) and other jobs and what have you. Despite Red Mage being a true fencer more so than any of the jobs.

I'd like to think that Red Mage has a decent amount of potential however, it seems that it's wasted on the player base and the developers as to what Red Mage should really be like.

*class. We all know it, every mage out there has almost everything we have. Only thing Red Mage has over them is Gravity and Refresh II. Big Whoop. Fast cast? So does everyone else now, if not there's gear for it, or atmas. (Even outside of Abyssea. Gear.) Just seems like we're just a birth of ideas SE had while drunk one night. "Yeah, let's make Red Mage be able to do all this stuff, but uh, uh let's uh remove most melee capabilities, most healing capabilities and most elemental capabilities, yeah and and we'll uh give it fast cast but not make it merit-able." "Great idea Steve, it's pure gold. However, I think I'd like the name 'Retard with a stick' but, uh. I think that's not very politically correct is it?'" I imagine that's how the conversation went.

*Enhancing/Enfeebling. What's the point in giving us any? If you're going to give it to us to make us unique then give it off to another job? Here's looking at you Regen family, better Protect V and Shell V for WHM? These are enhancing, not healing. While the Regen family DOES heal, it is considered Enhancing, otherwise change it to healing and get it over and done with.
Enfeebling? Addle was the only thing I could see being different from Red Mage and any of the other mages. Dispel WAS one of them but since they also handed that to Scholar. All that's left is to hand Dispel and Gravity out to every job out there like it was candy.

So, if people want to complain about Red Mage overstepping it's boundaries, take a gander at all the other jobs that have taken over RDM's turf. Then tell me if it's justified or not to ask for a little something once in a while.

CapriciousOne

08-20-2011, 12:42 AM

To Rayik and everybody else in the forums:

I tend to look at the posts in threaded and hybrid view view where it shows the relationship to who I am responding to I dont like linear view for that reason. In case you still can't follow I will try to do that as well to help you guys out. I dont quote large posts in general unless I am debating multiple points made in the OP. Hope this helps

CapriciousOne

08-20-2011, 01:13 AM

Why are you making a million disconnected posts back to back? Who are you replying to in them? What the hell are you trying to say and why does it take 10 posts to say it?

Did it ever occur to you that maybe those 10 post are related to 10 DIFFERENT ITEMS? Of course it didn't. Still from what I"m seeing most of you are using the linear display that shows all the posts in order of date and time, which I never use as explained in other post to Rayik. It also explains alot about the kind of players this game and why RDM melee is such an issue in the first place. *shrugs* In anycase whatever all this is answered in Hybrid and Threaded display views if you bothered to use that brain of yours to actually figure out those answer on your own but that is too much work and hurts your head I guess.

Rayik

08-20-2011, 03:07 AM

Did it ever occur to you that maybe those 10 post are related to 10 DIFFERENT ITEMS? Of course it didn't. Still from what I"m seeing most of you are using the linear display that shows all the posts in order of date and time, which I never use as explained in other post to Rayik. It also explains alot about the kind of players this game and why RDM melee is such an issue in the first place. *shrugs* In anycase whatever all this is answered in Hybrid and Threaded display views if you bothered to use that brain of yours to actually figure out those answer on your own but that is too much work and hurts your head I guess.

If you were responding to 10 different things, the least you could do is give some kind of context to what you were responding too. Doesn't even need to be a quote of the full comment, just delete everything that isn't in direct reference to your response. I'm sure your responses were thorough and interesting, but trying to read them felt like stumbling into the middle of a conversation.

The burden of "figuring out what you were talking about" is really on you, since you are the one doing the posting. If you are using a means of viewing the thread that is apparently causing confusion to every other person attempting to read your post, then it is you who needs to adjust the means you use to view the forum. Do not expect a forum of strangers to adjust to your view style, when the means we are currently using works just fine for us.

Shiyo

08-24-2011, 08:13 AM

I wish this post would be deleted so RDM would get buffs in areas it actually needs them in.

Duelle

08-24-2011, 08:23 AM

I wish this post would be deleted so RDM would get buffs in areas it actually needs them in.The day RDM loses sword proficiency, dagger proficiency, access to anything that is not caster gear, and stops being depicted as a guy with a sword in one hand and magic in the other, I will. Until then, this thread stays.

Shiyo

08-24-2011, 08:23 AM

You will never do 10% of the damage of a real DD, sorry :(

Stylin

08-24-2011, 08:25 AM

You will never do 10% of the damage of a real DD, sorry :(

Nobody cares what you think, SE does what SE wants. Deal with it.

Supersun

08-24-2011, 08:27 AM

You will never do 10% of the damage of a real DD, sorry :(

...Not even a melee summoner would lost to all but the highest of DDs by 10x.

You complain about temper, but I sure don't see YOUR suggestions for the job and their "needed" spells anywhere.

Daniel_Hatcher

08-24-2011, 08:28 AM

You will never do 10% of the damage of a real DD, sorry :(

Really just stop that.

What is the point? all you're going to do is make yourself look foolish and come across as a Troll, though you've done that with your 14 posts being 90% troll posts.

As for 10% you're talking shit, RDM is far behind the normal DD's but not that far, as they say "proof or it didn't happen" and all.

Shiyo

08-24-2011, 08:29 AM

It happened by never seeing a RDM meleeing inside a party since like 2005.

Daniel_Hatcher

08-24-2011, 08:32 AM

It happened by never seeing a RDM meleeing inside a party since like 2005.

Now you really are being daft.

Not meleeing does NOT mean a job can't deal 10% of damage, it means the bandwagon of players don't melee or got forced into being a Refresh/Haste/Cure bot.

Shiyo

08-24-2011, 08:38 AM

I have more fun ccing, nuking, back up curing, hasting/refreshing and debuffing from 20+ yards than I do afking in silencega/terrorga/aoega/1shotga/amnesiaga/riddlega/stunga/sleepga/petrifyga/addlega range with a worthless subjob.

Doombringer

08-24-2011, 08:39 AM

You will never do 10% of the damage of a real DD, sorry :(

i did 150-200% the dmg of a "real" dd, and 40% the damage of an excellent dd.

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/03fba78a8f191a4e428b652f2889e4a0.png

it's in THIS thread.. pull your fingers out of your ears.

Shiyo

08-24-2011, 08:40 AM

Stop posting worthless parses of you vs people in full pink or other retarded things please, a parse is completely worthless , this isn't WOW and you're not in the top3 guild where all your DD's are competing to be top damage while also NEEDing to pull top damage or else they won't kill the boss for a world first.

Doombringer

08-24-2011, 08:42 AM

if it doesn't matter then why do you keep bringing it up?

you're the one pulling "never do 10%" out of the sky like it makes you right.

edit: also, gokku is certainly not a full pink dd, lvl 90 verethragna, black belt, full af3+2, and he was even tanking. so more dmg from counter

Daniel_Hatcher

08-24-2011, 08:45 AM

Hmm... Interesting..

Nice to see Shiyo is starting to post where she belongs. lol

Shiyo:
Before colibri, I hasted, refreshed, cured, debuffed, MBed and CCed mobs. I'm pretty sure this is what they want RDM to be, it was so fun back then

I was the ultimate support mage, yes a brd had better buffs but they weren't a "mage". Give me better buffs and superior cures to a /whm to bring RDM back into the playing field. Haste2 , bravery, faith, temper party castable plz.

I've never been a melee RDM, and never will be. I play the job right, meleeing is NOT right. Wanna be a melee RDM? Play NIN, blu, or dnc.

The only reason that this makes me laugh is because she never had RDM at 75 and only now has RDM because she abyssea burned it. Just dont get why she acts like shes been a RDM forever. At 75, she was all pro SCH and how RDM, WHM, BLM where horrible jobs compared to SCH.

Shiyo

08-24-2011, 08:51 AM

Parses still show nothing.

Seriha

08-24-2011, 08:57 AM

I see we're playing the Every Mob is a Malboro game. Can I have a tentacle?

Duelle

08-24-2011, 09:56 AM

this isn't WOWWell, no. If this were WoW, DRK would have a pure physical DPS option, a magic+physical DPS option (where elemental nukes would scale off Attack Power or STR instead of MAB) and a tank option, PLD would have a tank option and a DPS option, RDM would have caster DPS, Healer, and Magic Melee DPS options, BST would have actual control over their pets with notable benefits from certain types of pets, THF would have something more worthwhile than Treasure Hunter and Bully, Ranger would probably be in a better spot, WAR and MNK would still share their throne as kings of DPS, and so on (and all options for each class would be viable for events/raids/dungeons). Granted, we'd also have massive crying by people from X class asking for Y class to get nerfed, and often-uninsightful posts from developers every now and then, a developer team focused on pumping out expansions every year, and by now Trion, Prishe and Ajido-marujido would have formed an unholy triumvirate that would cause them to go "insane", turning them into loot pinatas--I mean, raid bosses. Both have their ups and downs.

Lilia

08-24-2011, 10:02 AM

maybe shiyo melee with relic set and joytoy and a shield.... maybe then 10%

oh and i see on my server rdm melee in mage equip and joytoy >.<

saevel

08-24-2011, 07:13 PM

Nice to see Shiyo is starting to post where she belongs. lol

Shiyo:
Before colibri, I hasted, refreshed, cured, debuffed, MBed and CCed mobs. I'm pretty sure this is what they want RDM to be, it was so fun back then

I was the ultimate support mage, yes a brd had better buffs but they weren't a "mage". Give me better buffs and superior cures to a /whm to bring RDM back into the playing field. Haste2 , bravery, faith, temper party castable plz.

I've never been a melee RDM, and never will be. I play the job right, meleeing is NOT right. Wanna be a melee RDM? Play NIN, blu, or dnc.

The only reason that this makes me laugh is because she never had RDM at 75 and only now has RDM because she abyssea burned it. Just dont get why she acts like shes been a RDM forever. At 75, she was all pro SCH and how RDM, WHM, BLM where horrible jobs compared to SCH.

And this is exactly what most of the anti-melee posters are. Their not RDM's, their ~insert other non popular job~ and used RDM to get invites into HNM groups and merit parties. Now their using WHM / BLM / NIN to accomplish this. They don't' play the job, have zero interesting in a balanced game nor a balanced job assortment. Instead they would prefer SE to take whatever dev's are working on RDM updates and have them work on other non RDM related updates. Baring that they'd want the dev's work on RDM updates to instead make a buff for everyone else and put it on RDM, this way everyone gets something ~except~ the original RDM's.

That attitude is so blatantly obvious that it makes me sick. They couldn't even attempt to hide it like ShadowEdge does.

cidbahamut

08-24-2011, 10:08 PM

Rayik

08-24-2011, 10:22 PM

What makes me sick is your rhetoric implying that those of us who started life as a Red Mage and play it almost to the exclusion of every other job, but happen to disagree with you are somehow not Red Mages.

I agree with this statement, and again this goes to both sides of the argument.

If you enjoy being a mage-only RDM, then continue enjoying that. Nobody is taking it away from you. If you enjoy swinging your sword, enjoy that too. Trying to make one side out better than the other, or saying someone is wrong for playing how they enjoy, is just ignorant trolling.

Shiyo, you have been shut down at every turn. Doom parsed against "true DD's" and came out with favorable numbers. We're even getting Temper. What have you contributed to the conversation besides mindless trolling?

Don't like melee? Then don't do it.

cidbahamut

08-24-2011, 10:35 PM

If you enjoy being a mage-only RDM, then continue enjoying that. Nobody is taking it away from you. If you enjoy swinging your sword, enjoy that too. Trying to make one side out better than the other, or saying someone is wrong for playing how they enjoy, is just ignorant trolling.
I'm not sure I agree with that. In any given situation one style will be more useful than the other, the problem is that we don't have an agreed upon method of measuring that.

Duelle

08-24-2011, 10:41 PM

If you enjoy being a mage-only RDM, then continue enjoying that. Nobody is taking it away from you. If you enjoy swinging your sword, enjoy that too. Trying to make one side out better than the other, or saying someone is wrong for playing how they enjoy, is just ignorant trolling.I agree with you. Most of us want to keep some semblance of the caster gameplay intact. I think I've been the only one willing to say "ok we can take from X and replace with Y to create the melee/front line focus". Other than that, the others have been staunch about not changing one but simply adding to the other.

Rayik

08-24-2011, 10:42 PM

I'm not sure I agree with that. In any given situation one style will be more useful than the other, the problem is that we don't have an agreed upon method of measuring that.

Right on. I'm not saying we should be able to melee 100% of the time, and I've never said that. There are many situations(currently 90% of the time) where melee'ing is not an option. But in those situations, it's a good thing we have all this magic we can use too.

A versatile hybrid job is not going to be one thing all the time. And I agree, we don't really have much of a measure of when it's ok or not to do certain things, but our magic is so strong(compared to our melee currently) that we can safely do that in place of those unsure times.

Rayik

08-24-2011, 10:45 PM

I agree with you. Most of us want to keep some semblance of the caster gameplay intact. I think I've been the only one willing to say "ok we can take from X and replace with Y to create the melee/front line focus". Other than that, the others have been staunch about not changing one but simply adding to the other.

I'm one of those others that doesn't want to see anything taken away from our magic, since all the other mages in the game cast rings around us already. Our magic is the one thing we can do well and even then we're getting dirt kicked in our faces by other jobs getting our former EX enfeebles, AoE versions of our buffs, and NM's being immune to our enfeebles. At this point doing anything negative to our magic would be devastating.

Rosina

08-25-2011, 12:45 AM

cidbahamut

08-25-2011, 12:56 AM

You have nothing to add to this discussion Rosina. Go read through the previous 133 pages and get back to us.

SpankWustler

08-25-2011, 12:59 AM

First off your auto attack is still active when you cast. And at times your casting anime is over ridden with an attack.

Actions and the associated animations are often less than synchronized, so while does seem this way from simply eyeballing, such is not the case.

Edit: Not even sure why I posted this, since everybody knows this. I have strange compulsions.

BorkBorkBork

08-25-2011, 01:43 AM

just read the front page.

I melee'ed rdm, and it is not all that hard to do. First off your auto attack is still active when you cast. And at times your casting anime is over ridden with an attack. Second red mage is a light damage class much like thief. RDM do not need to dish out huge damage, they do more for the part then just dmg. And people lost the umderstanding of basic rpg things. Personally speaking, I had no issues with my buffing, debuffing, refreshing while melee. Just gotta keep up with a routine. As for the resists, well honestly even with the best gear resist can happen. I people forgot what it meant to play a video game, no one has any right to change how a person plays. As long as you work as a team (no matter the playstyle) you can get stuff done. teamwork is not forcing people a certain way it is using your strangths to over come others weaknesses. Rdm is about being versitile. not a backline batterery.

Any thought to needlessly adding tp for not much gain besides saying that your meleeing? Theres a time and place for everything but unfortunately as it is rdm is not anywhere close to being a light DD unless you have a emph. Even then most likely you have a job thats "currently" more helpful. There was a time and place for rdm melee mainly as a tank and maybe there will be again but people need to step back and realize what rdm currently is and accept it until SE finishes balancing the jobs.

Daniel_Hatcher

08-25-2011, 01:52 AM

Shiyo

08-25-2011, 08:34 AM

I don't understand how this thread is 134 pages long when every piece of RDM's AF3 has caster stats on them and not a single piece has any melee oriented stat at all. Take a hint?

Daniel_Hatcher

08-25-2011, 08:36 AM

I don't understand how this thread is 134 pages long when every piece of RDM's AF3 has caster stats on them and not a single piece has any melee oriented stat at all. Take a hint?

Blah blah, still so boring!!! YAWN!!!!

Doombringer

08-25-2011, 08:40 AM

First off your auto attack is still active when you cast. And at times your casting anime is over ridden with an attack.

that's sort of a glitch. in that the spell "happens" faster than it takes to actually animate. so you can swing during a lengthy animation because, as far as the game is concerned, you're done casting.

you can also see this with multihits, all the hits HAPPEN at once, but it takes time to animate them all. so for example, duel wielding in aby with apoc atma.. you get a lucky 6hit proc as you hit a spell macro. all 6 of those hits landed at once, right before you started casting.. but the game may still animate those 6 swings in sequence anyway, wich can make it look like you were swinging away mid-spell. (another fun example, the first time i fought charybdis... he kept swinging after i was dead. for like a solid second)

but while the spell is charging, the delay ticker stops.

i mean i WISH it kept ticking away while we were casting, i've actually suggested that as a job trait for rdm.. but that's not how it is now.

Duelle

08-25-2011, 08:51 AM

i mean i WISH it kept ticking away while we were casting, i've actually suggested that as a job trait for rdm.. but that's not how it is now.I think one of the CMs at one point may have said it wasn't possible. I think it was that or doublecast. Would be nice if someone could confirm.

saevel

08-25-2011, 10:43 AM

I think one of the CMs at one point may have said it wasn't possible. I think it was that or doublecast. Would be nice if someone could confirm.

Within the way the game currently works it wouldn't be possible to make a "double cast" effect. As in two spells going off at the same time, think the server can only have one action per actor at any point in time. This is why "Quick Cast" is their answer, basically next spell is instant cast / instant recast (hopefully). So you can throw out two of the same spells in slightly more then the same time it would take to cast it twice. Can be useful as we can open SC, QC Tier IV Nuke and maybe squeeze out another lower tiered nuke.

True story, back when I was leveling SAM by best friend was leveling RDM and we always partied with each other. This is back during SC / MB days btw. I would coordinate the SC's trying to SC off two members (Tank + other Melee) and my buddy got extremely good at double magic bursting, usually ended up doing more then the BLM. Had several parties where we'd roll out with 2x RDM as our nukers vs the BLM + RDM set. But we're talkes ages ago. Also my friend was a hard core "mage" RDM, he didn't melee much but understood that I preferred that style. He eventually leveled WHM and became a main WHM due to him liking the healer style. Ohh and he got really good at MBing Banish / Holy spells on Fusion / Light SCs, use's to scare the sh!t out of people seeing a WHM pop off a Banishga II -> Banish II MB.

Duelle

08-25-2011, 11:03 AM

Oh I see the merit in double bursting, and Quick Cast will definitely make it easier. I never got to cap fast cast before they nixed the FC cap, that'll be interesting to play with.

Either way, so we have a self-cast double attack spell. I can cross that off the list of suggested melee buffs. Barring the possibility of SE raising our sword and dagger skill levels, more WS access and more gear choices, what else should we be lobbying for to help our melee side?

Supersun

08-25-2011, 11:04 AM

Fixed Enspell IIs?

Duelle

08-25-2011, 11:33 AM

Fixed Enspell IIs?Ok. Let's go with that. I think Enspell IIs should lower same element resistances (Enfire II lowering a mob's fire resistance), and the ramp up time should be cut in half. Thoughts?

CapriciousOne

08-31-2011, 05:08 AM

I'm not sure I agree with that. In any given situation one style will be more useful than the other, the problem is that we don't have an agreed upon method of measuring that.

I personally dont feel there is a need to measure anything since it really is relative to the person being asked. Even if for specific situation where one style may be better than the other, that still doesnt mean you totally abandon the other style. I mean if you have 2 ways to damage a mob why only use one over the other when you can use both and still do more damage over time than any one method could alone?

cidbahamut

08-31-2011, 05:18 AM

I personally dont feel there is a need to measure anything since it really is relative to the person being asked. Even if for specific situation where one style may be better than the other, that still doesnt mean you totally abandon the other style. I mean if you have 2 ways to damage a mob why only use one over the other when you can use both and still do more damage over time than any one method could alone?

Because one is more effective while the other ends up being detrimental to the success of the task at hand.

You can believe in the heart of the cards all you like, but that won't change the fact that you don't use scissors to beat rock.

CapriciousOne

08-31-2011, 05:34 AM

I agree with you. Most of us want to keep some semblance of the caster gameplay intact. I think I've been the only one willing to say "ok we can take from X and replace with Y to create the melee/front line focus". Other than that, the others have been staunch about not changing one but simply adding to the other.

Well for me at least, I'm not trying to take anything away from magic but rather ADD more to melee. I would never suggest to a developer: "Hey add this and get rid of that" just because I dont find something useful and I dont use it. Just because I think something is crap doesnt give me the right to ruin it for somebody else that thinks its great, even if the numbers may not support it. So far from what I've seen, I dont think anybody is trying to weaken or remove what already exists for magic to improve melee or vice versa. then again there is over a 1000 posts and i'm not reading them all to say otherwise.

CapriciousOne

08-31-2011, 05:51 AM

just read the front page.

I melee'ed rdm, and it is not all that hard to do. First off your auto attack is still active when you cast. And at times your casting anime is over ridden with an attack. Second red mage is a light damage class much like thief. RDM do not need to dish out huge damage, they do more for the part then just dmg. And people lost the umderstanding of basic rpg things. Personally speaking, I had no issues with my buffing, debuffing, refreshing while melee. Just gotta keep up with a routine. As for the resists, well honestly even with the best gear resist can happen. I people forgot what it meant to play a video game, no one has any right to change how a person plays. As long. as you work as a team (no matter the playstyle) you can get stuff done. teamwork is not forcing people a certain way it is using your strangths to over come others weaknesses. Rdm is about being versitile. not a backline batterery.

I couldnt have said it better myself Rosina this is the real problem overall and why rdm gets pigeon-holed as a healer. The fact is RDM has MULTIPLE skills to use against the mob is SUPPOSED to use them ALL to defeat the mob by the job description so all this one or the other BS anyway you look at it is UNDERUTILIZING the job from its intened purposes. Just RDM has the word mage in it doesnt mean that is its only strength. Apparently people don't understand what the word LEVERAGE mean as mentioned it various job descriptions for RDM.

cidbahamut

08-31-2011, 05:52 AM

Stop double posting.

For real, it gets old.

CapriciousOne

08-31-2011, 06:07 AM

Any thought to needlessly adding tp for not much gain besides saying that your meleeing? Theres a time and place for everything but unfortunately as it is rdm is not anywhere close to being a light DD unless you have a emph. Even then most likely you have a job thats "currently" more helpful. There was a time and place for rdm melee mainly as a tank and maybe there will be again but people need to step back and realize what rdm currently is and accept it until SE finishes balancing the jobs.

The average DMG of a sword is roughly half of 2-handed weapon of same level but attacks almost 2x as much. If one dual wields swords with some accuracy and DEX gear then the damage output of RDM melee can be almost comparable to a DD 2 handed weapon of the same level assuming both swords are the same exact weapon, not even counting adding Enspell I enhancement which affects both main and offhand. Weaponskill however is where this battle is unfortunately is lost and 2 handed weapons may out shine dual wielding. If u examine the delays between single and two-handed weapons there is almost an exact 2 to 1 delay ratio on average so I have no idea why people keep debating this as over time it all balances out to be almost the same damage. Only real difference is it takes more than one swing to do it.

Overall if you have a weapon you should be swinging it instead of using for display only purposes. Melee is in some ways another form of damage over time. I mean if a mob has like 50k hp and u only have 1 person dealing 50dmg it will take u 1000 attack rounds, 2 ppl 500, 3ppl 330 and so on and so on. You deal more damage in shorter amount of time killing the mob faster overall and anybody that isnt meleeing is prolonging that battle.

Also if I remember reading correctly on ffxiclopedia.org or some other site doesnt magic give the mob MORE TP than meleeing does? The only exception to this I think is with 2handed weapons where they give off more tp than single handed weapons and magic on a per action basis. Even still if your supposed to be some DD on the front line and worrying about feeding tp than you need to be mage so you dont get any scars on that wimpy little face of yours, LOL Seriously a DD complaining about getting hit by a TP move is hilarious to me.

CapriciousOne

08-31-2011, 06:39 AM

I don't understand how this thread is 134 pages long when every piece of RDM's AF3 has caster stats on them and not a single piece has any melee oriented stat at all. Take a hint?

Sadly only set I have is that teal saio set with the int and mnd boost to help my enfeebles stick more to aid me in my meleeing (blind 2/paralyze 2, slow, etc) If anybody needs to take a hint though it is SE more than anybody else.

CapriciousOne

08-31-2011, 06:50 AM

1. Because one is more effective while the other ends up being detrimental to the success of the task at hand.

How is it detrimental when both are able to contribute to the successful defeat of a mob by increasing dps even if one does less damage than the other? Last time I checked Aero IV + Melee is still better than just Aero IV alone and vice versa. As long as the mob doesnt absorb the damage and heal itself as a result, any additional damage per attack round is anything BUT detrimental. Unless you are referring to getting hit more often as detrimental than if one is worried about getting hit than they really shouldn't be fighting the mob in the first place should be healing. Short of the high evasion and shadows of THF and NIN you should expect to get hit and hit hard or maybe i'm wrong.

2. You can believe in the heart of the cards all you like, but that won't change the fact that you don't use scissors to beat rock.

This isnt Rock Paper Scissors and that game always was dumb to me because a rock can cut paper yet it loses to it? Complete bs, LOL In any case if my scissors cant beat that rock then I would seek out a stronger tool to damage the rock and thus is the point and beauty of RDM.

cidbahamut

08-31-2011, 07:08 AM

Go stab things in Voidwatch and let me know how that works out for you.

Daniel_Hatcher

08-31-2011, 07:28 AM

Go stab things in Voidwatch and let me know how that works out for you.

Yeah, right! 90% of jobs don't/can't melee on VoidWatch NM's so point = VOID.

cidbahamut

08-31-2011, 07:39 AM

Yeah, right! 90% of jobs don't/can't melee on VoidWatch NM's so point = VOID.
You got a better benchmark for level 90 content that isn't lolAbyssea?

Supersun

08-31-2011, 07:53 AM

You got a better benchmark for level 90 content that isn't lolAbyssea?

Dynamis?

Some of those NMs in there are probably a more realistic gauge of what to expect from 90+ content that's not Voidwatch

Seriha

08-31-2011, 09:03 AM

Also if I remember reading correctly on ffxiclopedia.org or some other site doesnt magic give the mob MORE TP than meleeing does? The only exception to this I think is with 2handed weapons where they give off more tp than single handed weapons and magic on a per action basis. Even still if your supposed to be some DD on the front line and worrying about feeding tp than you need to be mage so you dont get any scars on that wimpy little face of yours, LOL Seriously a DD complaining about getting hit by a TP move is hilarious to me.

From what I recall, any damaging spell gave a mob 10 TP. Subtle Blow would, funnily enough, subtract from this number. However, I don't know if the recent AGI modifications have affected this, but things like multi-hit BLU spells were notorious for TP feed since Bludgeon landing its 3 hits would give 30, Disseverment 50, and so on. It'd be easy enough to test with Charm and checking pet TP, though.

Neisan_Quetz

08-31-2011, 09:13 AM

The AGI buff affects that iirc, even under 25% HP I couldn't get empty in Vazhl to tp in less than 12 casts of dia 2 doing at least 1 damage (if it was 10tp per cast, it should have tp'd every 10 spells).

Daniel_Hatcher

08-31-2011, 09:36 AM

You got a better benchmark for level 90 content that isn't lolAbyssea?

My point is as far as VoidWatch is concerned no one likes people attacking the mobs, I've seen THF's, DNC, BLU's even MNK's being told not to attack it as they were feeding too much TP. I've even seen people arguing with each other to cap SubtleBlow for them. These are times when a RDM would not be foolish enough to want to attack them.. That's what the anti-Melee crowd don't seem to understand.

RDM's as well as other jobs know when NOT to want to attack something, if they don't they usually get one warning then kicked if they continue. The general consensus should be if a THF (when not getting TH up) or BLU can attack a mob due to little fear of the TP moves so can most jobs.

Oh and one more thing, that DOESN'T include RDM's or anyjob that want to melee in gear that is NOT melee gear AKA RDM's eAF.

saevel

08-31-2011, 10:25 AM

Are they seriously trying to use VWNM's as a reason not to melee? You realize that on VWNM's I go RDM/DRK for stun's right? You also realize that standing right next to me are the DRK, MNK, SAM, DRG, WAR, NIN, BLM and WHM's. The only people on the NM are our two super PLD's and a THF until they identify white procs. Afterwards individual melee's are called in to proc things one a a time until we proc white !!, then the "get in and unleash" order is given upon which everyone (myself included) runs in and does WS / as much damage as possible until the monster is no longer terrorized, I then stun and we all run back to our starting positions. The battle continues until white is proced again and we all run in again.

T3/T4 VWNM's have crazy powerful aoe's, they can one shot mages and two shot melee's. There is no crazy MP regen so WHM MP actually becomes an issue, too many melee's getting 700~1K+ damage attacks will rapidly deplete the WHM's MP, which then cause's a problem. We learned this during the T4 Sandy VWNM fight against the four armed bandit. We had our melee's doing their "melee thing" and within 10min two of our WHM's were out of MP and the "tank WHM" was limping along, heck I was running low as I was blowing large amounts on constant Cure IV's. People started dieing and we quickly pulled everyone off the NM. Raise's were slow to hand out as MP was critically low, eventually we got everyone up and out of that things path. This was our first T4 and we learned our lesson.

Funny thing, the best DD in that fight was our JR RNG, he did so much damage while being out of the aoe range.

cidbahamut

08-31-2011, 09:31 PM

The point is that's the direction in which the metagame has been shifting for several months now.

SpankWustler

08-31-2011, 10:20 PM

When a Thief or Dancer or such engages rather than not engaging, there's another person getting hit by stuff but you lose nothing. Even if they die, they go from sitting on their hands to sitting on their hands while having less maximum HP.

When a job formerly playing a support role engages and focuses on melee, you trade one person who was dealing with HP loss and/or status ailments for a person who is losing HP and likely being afflicted with status ailments.

The reason Red Mage loses out by engaging isn't because it's not so hot at hitting things with things, it's because Red Mage has so much to gain by not hitting things with things. That, and Blizzard IV works just fine from outside the average AoE's range so your options aren't as limited as those of a Warrior or Monk.

Obviously this doesn't apply to everything (such as a VoidWatch NM that is terrorized), but it's a pretty good general statement. Most of the new NMs, including the new ones in Dynamis, are pretty hard.

Rayik

09-01-2011, 12:36 AM

cidbahamut

09-01-2011, 01:13 AM

The whole Voidwatch/Dynamis argument is short-sighted and temporary anyway. We want fixes for the long term, not just to make one job better at the flavor-of-the-month event currently happening, just so everything can become invalidated and turned on it's head 6 months later when the next new event is announced.

But that is how online gaming has always functioned. There's always going to be the optimal approach that gains popularity because it's distinctly more effective than the alternatives. Go look at any online game that receives patches and updates that do anything beyond fixing bugs and you will see over time there are shifts in what gets used. It's the nature of the beast.

All we're asking for is a buff to one already existing aspect of our job, is that so wrong? Nobody is taking your mage-only playstyle away from any of you. Nobody is shoving a sword in your hand. Mage-only RDM's can continue on their merry way, ignoring aspects of the job they supposedly care so much for.
The problem is that said aspect of the job has never been of much use outside of soloing or mobs which Scholars could be hitting with Great Axes. Those situations comprise a relatively small portion of the game's content, and trivially easy content is not what you focus your game design around. Red Mage has never been given the tools to truly support its melee aspect and at this point it's really too late to develop it in any serious capacity that would allow it to be incorporated into the metagame.

Right now Red Mage is a mage job, not a hybrid. It has been a mage job for years, not a hybrid. It's not a magical swordsman, it's a mage that happens to be able to equip swords. To get Red Mage on the front lines as the standard operating procedure would require changes that effectively recreate the job into something it has never been before. Anything less than that will leave us in the position we're currently in already: We've got a melee bit there, but we're still a mage and can function as a mage therefore we will be called upon to be a mage because we're more useful as a mage.

Red Mage melee really isn't as bad off as people like to make it out to be. It's just that it's an overly specialized tool in a toolbox filled with a bunch of other tools that are all much more general purpose. The only problem is that some carpenters are unhappy because there just aren't that many projects that allow them to make use of that overly specialized tool.

SpankWustler

09-01-2011, 01:19 AM

Rayik

09-01-2011, 01:22 AM

But that is how online gaming has always functioned. There's always going to be the optimal approach that gains popularity because it's distinctly more effective than the alternatives. Go look at any online game that receives patches and updates that do anything beyond fixing bugs and you will see over time there are shifts in what gets used. It's the nature of the beast.

The problem is that said aspect of the job has never been of much use outside of soloing or mobs which Scholars could be hitting with Great Axes. Those situations comprise a relatively small portion of the game's content, and trivially easy content is not what you focus your game design around. Red Mage has never been given the tools to truly support its melee aspect and at this point it's really too late to develop it in any serious capacity that would allow it to be incorporated into the metagame.

Right now Red Mage is a mage job, not a hybrid. It has been a mage job for years, not a hybrid. It's not a magical swordsman, it's a mage that happens to be able to equip swords. To get Red Mage on the front lines as the standard operating procedure would require changes that effectively recreate the job into something it has never been before. Anything less than that will leave us in the position we're currently in already: We've got a melee bit there, but we're still a mage and can function as a mage therefore we will be called upon to be a mage because we're more useful as a mage.

Red Mage melee really isn't as bad off as people like to make it out to be. It's just that it's an overly specialized tool in a toolbox filled with a bunch of other tools that are all much more general purpose. The only problem is that some carpenters are unhappy because there just aren't that many projects that allow them to make use of that overly specialized tool.

Everything in your post is correct, and exactly the grounds to which RDM melee's like myself have been asking for a fix. To reprise the "peg-hole" metaphor from one of the earlier threads(this one? I lost track). RDM is really more like a round peg that got hammered into a square hole and got stuck.

Pigeon-holing a versatile job with so much potential into one strict role is an injustice.

Rayik

09-01-2011, 01:25 AM

My post was meant to be explicative rather than to imply an opinion one way or the other. Blue Mage is sometimes better off chilling out in the back and doing whatever they can from there, too, and people tend to think of it as a melee.

I'm not at all opposed to more melee stuff for Red Mage, but it's best to be realistic about game mechanics. A change to Red Mage's melee capabilities would have to be huge to do anything other than to make engaging weak monsters more beneficial.

I agree with this as well. Something big does need to change. The job got shoved into the backline by the community, and is hard pressed to dig itself out. As it stands, melee'ing in a group setting is absolutely counter-productive. IF it were a boon, we wouldn't have 5 threads arguing over it.

As long as SE continues to release melee buffs and gear, I will not relent in my stance that our melee side needs to be recognized and a means of making it more party-friendly is attained.

SpankWustler

09-01-2011, 01:42 AM

As long as SE continues to release melee buffs and gear, I will not relent in my stance that our melee side needs to be recognized and a means of making it more party-friendly is attained.

This part is strange to me as well. It's as if SE's message is "We want to give Red Mage tools to melee. But...not to melee well. Tools to melee rather poorly, actually. Oh, and no new and useful enfeebling or enhancing magic. Never that."

You'd think they would either make the melee additions worthwhile or just focus on Red Mage as a casting/back-line presence. My God, what if someone at SE likes reading threads like this one?!

cidbahamut

09-01-2011, 01:43 AM

Well it is a rather effective way to pass the time on your lunch break.

Rayik

09-01-2011, 01:52 AM

This part is strange to me as well. It's as if SE's message is "We want to give Red Mage tools to melee. But...not to melee well. Tools to melee rather poorly, actually. Oh, and no new and useful enfeebling or enhancing magic. Never that."

You'd think they would either make the melee additions worthwhile or just focus on Red Mage as a casting/back-line presence. My God, what if someone at SE likes reading threads like this one?!

I really get the feeling like they are scared of what potential would be unleashed by RDM if they got really creative with it. It feels like they're handling RDM with hazmat suits, while they just toss whatever overpowered trick and ability at other jobs without a care. It just feels like every little thing we get is like a sample-sized bite, while other jobs get entire 3 course meals.

saevel

09-01-2011, 02:33 AM

Bubeeky

09-01-2011, 02:40 AM

Certain RDM's running around soloing HNM's had alot to do with this. From a developers perspective seeing someone do that, in a way that was never designed for and potentially breaking the game, will wreck havoc on any game balance if your not careful. Thus SE has been over protective of it's game balance, to the point of nearly destroying RDM.

Back at 75, I remember it was common knowledge that rdm could solo like 99.9% of game content....I think you are right that they are trying to avoid that kind of situation again.

Swords

09-01-2011, 02:48 AM

Then again those major endgame soloer's were really just a small select few of highly skilled and exceptionally well equipped RDM's, and really should not have been used as a scale for gauging the job for the majority of RDM's out there. But at the same time, most every job in the game has gotten buffed to the point they can do what those RDM's did and do it even better, while RDM has more or less stagnated.

Rayik

09-01-2011, 02:50 AM

Swords

09-01-2011, 02:54 AM

Nah it wasn't one person, others went out and attempted what Avesta did. Some tried and failed while others succeeded, and some even came up with better methods, but the fact remains you only had maybe 5-10 people per server capable of doing this out of maybe the 15000 RDMs out there.

saevel

09-01-2011, 02:54 AM

Exactly this. SE got scared and declared the Exceptions suddenly as the Rule. Just because one player got crazy good at the job, ALL of us are paying the price.

Basically yeah, but remember this was the "old SE" we're talking about, the ones that failed in making 14. The newer guys seem to be slowly lightening up and actually wanting to fix RDM into something other then a haste / refresh / cure IV(V) bot.

cidbahamut

09-01-2011, 02:56 AM

Exactly this. SE got scared and declared the Exceptions suddenly as the Rule. Just because one player got crazy good at the job, ALL of us are paying the price.

Well that's because every player has the potential to reach that level of proficiency, and then the rest of the game unravels as an army of Red Mages conquers every challenge in the game with ease. It's a valid concern regarding the game balance, even if the scenario I laid out above was always extremely unlikely(or even somewhat inaccurate).

Swords

09-01-2011, 03:09 AM

Rayik

09-01-2011, 03:15 AM

Well that's because every player has the potential to reach that level of proficiency, and then the rest of the game unravels as an army of Red Mages conquers every challenge in the game with ease. It's a valid concern regarding the game balance, even if the scenario I laid out above was always extremely unlikely(or even somewhat inaccurate).

Right, except for the part where the game has changed, although RDM has not. Mobs are now immune to the very enfeeble's that were exploited. NM's have ridiculous amounts of regain, rage sooner, etc. The nerf-bat has been swung and it was a grand slam; when was the last time you ever heard of a RDM soloing any significant NM since then? RDM's have a hard enough time staying alive outside of trash xp mobs these days.

Ninjas and Dancers, on the other hand, can solo all day and night with no worries. So really, it's not 2005 anymore. It'd be nice if SE maybe took their boot of RDM's neck a little bit.

cidbahamut

09-01-2011, 03:26 AM

Right, except for the part where the game has changed, although RDM has not. Mobs are now immune to the very enfeeble's that were exploited. NM's have ridiculous amounts of regain, rage sooner, etc. The nerf-bat has been swung and it was a grand slam; when was the last time you ever heard of a RDM soloing any significant NM since then? RDM's have a hard enough time staying alive outside of trash xp mobs these days.

Does the guy who soloed Yaanei count? There's a fairly sizable list of NMs in Abyssea beyond that, although what all constitutes "significant" in Abyssea is up for debate.

Rayik

09-01-2011, 03:38 AM

Does the guy who soloed Yaanei count? There's a fairly sizable list of NMs in Abyssea beyond that, although what all constitutes "significant" in Abyssea is up for debate.

That is impressive, but how many NM's are Ninjas and Dancers soloing on a regular basis?

cidbahamut

09-01-2011, 03:44 AM

That is impressive, but how many NM's are Ninjas and Dancers soloing on a regular basis?

A fair number, but I suspect the lists of NMs soloed aren't the same for them as they are for Red Mage. That is to say, there's some NMs that Ninjas can tackle that'll trounce Red Mages, and there are NMs that will eat Ninjas for breakfast that Red Mages can curb stomp.

Rayik

09-01-2011, 03:49 AM

A fair number, but I suspect the lists of NMs soloed aren't the same for them as they are for Red Mage. That is to say, there's some NMs that Ninjas can tackle that'll trounce Red Mages, and there are NMs that will eat Ninjas for breakfast that Red Mages can curb stomp.

Any examples? I'm not disagreeing, I'd just like to get a better idea of what RDM can solo. I've truthfully solo'ed very few NM's, and I'd like to test myself and try some.

cidbahamut

09-01-2011, 04:03 AM

Any examples? I'm not disagreeing, I'd just like to get a better idea of what RDM can solo. I've truthfully solo'ed very few NM's, and I'd like to test myself and try some.

I'll trying to root through my notes and put together a list for you when I get home. My soloing resume isn't the most impressive on the block, but off the top of my head I've done Long-barreled Chariot, Ironclad Executioner and Mictlantecuhtli.

The chariot is pretty straight forward. Keep Slow applied and /NIN for shadows.

Mictlantecuhtli is a bit of a gamble, since if you get hit with charm it can ruin your day, but other than that it's a simple task of keeping enfeebles applied and shadows up.

The Ironclad Executioner just requires some Movement Speed+. If you don't have some go-faster pants(I don't), just /SCH and get yourself some Desert Boots. Just kite it in the valley by the Bastion battles and nuke while out of range.

saevel

09-01-2011, 04:04 AM

RDM can't solo some of the DNC / NIN solo's or even MNK due to evasion being too low. Most of those guys solo is just stacking massive evasion / counter and letting the NM whiff at you all day long.

Duelle

09-01-2011, 11:41 AM

I really get the feeling like they are scared of what potential would be unleashed by RDM if they got really creative with it. It feels like they're handling RDM with hazmat suits, while they just toss whatever overpowered trick and ability at other jobs without a care. It just feels like every little thing we get is like a sample-sized bite, while other jobs get entire 3 course meals.This is one of those issues that I believe stems from the fact the job has access to everything out of the box. This by itself is not much of a problem provided proper balancing mechanics are in place, but is made much worse by the fact that you can *improve* potency of whatever you do because you can swap gear mid-combat. Being in melee gear hitting things, tossing out a Cure with baseline potency and tossing out nukes at baseline potency is very different from being in melee gear, switching to a cure potency set whenever you cast cure, switch to an ele staff and MAB gear if you cast a nuke, change to FC set to get your buffs off, switching to your stoneskin set for max stoneskin potency, etc.

Rayik

09-01-2011, 11:26 PM

Zippey

09-02-2011, 12:43 AM

Rayik

09-02-2011, 12:55 AM

For those of you complaining about lack of weaponskills, primarily Vorpal Blade due to the crit modifier, you should really thing about subbing Warrior. You get a nice Str boost as well as Berserk, Warcry, Aggressor and Vorpal Blade. I've done that before, even tanked as Rdm/War in level 60's colibri parties and it worked rather well. Just my 2 cents on the issue though. ^.~

I know RDM can get all the missing WS by changing sub, but by subbing something that grants EX WS's, we lose dual-wield, and thus a huge amount of our melee damage. Right now, we have to choose between dual-wielding as /nin or /dnc, giving more melee damage over time but weak WS's, or single-wielding with /war, /drk, etc granting stronger WS's, but losing half our melee damage(and WS'ing half as often).

SpankWustler

09-02-2011, 02:34 AM

Rayik

09-02-2011, 02:40 AM

The addition of more native weapon skills would also make it relatively more productive for a Red Mage to melee weaker monsters then switch to a casting role for harder stuff, and fighting a bunch of weaker monsters followed by a boss or two is common in many of FFXI's situations. I couldn't really complain about the negligible efficiency lost from some dude in red pants hitting a thing with a thing if he could slip into a normal mage role when needed without the assistance of his moogle.

Although, this is already the case for a fellow with an Almace so it's not like it would change anything on the high end.

I'm fine with that. I'd ideally like to be able to shift from helping melee to a supportive magic role, all in the same fight(without running back to home point to switch subs). It's already possible, just not easy. Native WS would allow us to keep a mage sub and still dish out some supplemental damage.

Greatguardian

09-02-2011, 07:28 AM

RDM can't solo some of the DNC / NIN solo's or even MNK due to evasion being too low. Most of those guys solo is just stacking massive evasion / counter and letting the NM whiff at you all day long.

Uh, I'm not entirely sure where you're trying to come from with this but it's not like Red Mage is sitting around letting things attempt to hit it during solos anyways. There is no need for an evasion check when the monster is unable to swing.

Red Mage can and has solo'd quite damn near everything in Scars+Visions, and I'm sure it can solo damn near everything in Heroes aside from Ule Ironclad, Rani, and a few other NMs that don't take well to being alive for longer periods of time. Pinning has been recognized by the Development and GM staff as a legitimate tactical maneuver, and, anyone who actually understand what it is and how it works knows this, can require serious player attention and skill to pull off properly over long fights.

Red Mage can solo damn near everything in the game because it's so damn hard to kill. Not only do they have movement speed, Fast Cast Utsusemi, and full access to awesome PDT/MDT armor, but they can also damage monsters from a distance without ever getting within striking range.

There were plenty of reports of Red Mage solos of high level NMs post-Abyssea Era on BG, and I have personally solo'd damn near everything in Visions+Scars myself on Red Mage. The only reason myself and, I'd imagine, others stopped doing this was that there was very little point in taking 20 minutes to solo something when you can just get a mule or a friend and proc/kill the monster in 2 minutes with 5x the drops.

Mageoholic

09-06-2011, 07:11 AM

I don't understand how this thread is 134 pages long when every piece of RDM's AF3 has caster stats on them and not a single piece has any melee oriented stat at all. Take a hint?

LOL and my AF weapon is a sword not a staff what the hell is your point.

On the topic of our AF3+2 set, it gives a direct boost to our melee by reducing casting loads. This combined with the increased Fast Cast rate gives you about a 5% damage increase. Not bad for gear you use to macro on a cast.

Shiyo

09-06-2011, 09:20 AM

Mageoholic

09-06-2011, 09:54 AM

WHM AF1 weapon is a mace, guess WHM is melee DD too. WAR's is a 1h axe, guess war is supposed to dw axes or axe/shield.

cool logic

At the time of AF being implemnted DW axes, or axe/ridill was the way to go. It wasn't until mid 2006 where 2H weapons took off as the main stay and Great Axe along with it.

(course you prolly an Xbox nub who doesn't know that the game existed prior to ToAU)

As for WHM they have always had a pretty solid melee side, their ability to actually make use of a KC off hand in a hexa spam build is pretty badass, especially in today's capacity of multihit crits being king. Not to mention their wonderful Nyzul WS that pretty well ensures that they have infinite MP even outside of abyssea. Should they melee full time, nope, but they should consider keeping such options open in content where their other abilities are not seeing much action.

Kind of like a RDM who decides to melee, or a BLU who decides to heal, or a DNC who opts to support, or a PUP with WHM pet, or a DRG/mage. All jobs with viable second third fourth roles. Basing a jobs skill set on a set of gear is stupid, and apparantly you do not recognize a sarcastic snipe when it is laid on a big platter. Gear does not define the job, if that is the case then RDM is clearly a melee job as a good sizeable chunk of its gear is designed for melee.

Convert
Refresh
Haste
Dia III
Enspells
Enspell II
Composure
Fast Cast

Are all abilities/spells/traits that directly enhance our melee ability, and/or support us while meleeing. If you don't know how or why then you probably don't have an ounce of logic in your tiny brain. Keep fighting the good fight Abysgimp.

Supersun

09-06-2011, 10:12 AM

WHM AF1 weapon is a mace, guess WHM is melee DD too. WAR's is a 1h axe, guess war is supposed to dw axes or axe/shield.

cool logic

Red Mage has more unique melee enhancing spells and JAs that other jobs don't have / can't get then anything else.

cool logic

Mirage

09-06-2011, 10:25 AM

Nah, war is meant to single wield axe, no shield. I don't see an af shield anywhere, do you?!

TybudX

09-06-2011, 11:16 AM

You know what's hilarious, is over at FFXIAH.com, there's one single RDM melee topic.

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/17622/melee-gear/

And in that thread, they only lol for a couple posts, and then it's on to gear and strats. That website has some famously bad trolls, but even they can have a civil conversation about melee RDM without the holier than though finger wagging this forum has. Even non-RDM's join in with ideas and input. Just throwin that out there.

You'll notice nobody on that forum made any preposterous claims about RDM melee's greatness. No ridiculous assumptions about what RDM is designed to do, not a single mention of lolFencer (it's just a name, folks), nothing. Just some random *** saying Haste isn't good for RDM DoT and somebody else complaining about Empyreans and relic hat being too hard. If you want to be taken seriously... yeah. Not pointing at you in particular, but anybody who has read this thread knows who the *** are.

Greatguardian

09-06-2011, 01:07 PM

LOL and my AF weapon is a sword not a staff what the hell is your point.

On the topic of our AF3+2 set, it gives a direct boost to our melee by reducing casting loads. This combined with the increased Fast Cast rate gives you about a 5% damage increase. Not bad for gear you use to macro on a cast.

Oh hey, 5% damage increase. I wonder where that number came from. Care to provide ... anything to back that number up? Like, anything quantifiable? As in, things you can actually measure from which to draw that 5% number?

Oh yeah, I forgot, you disagree with me so you're obviously an "xbox nub" and an "Abysgimp". I'm not taking anyone's side here. I'm on my side. And on my side, you're full of it. Want to come in here and rant about how fast cast gives you some immeasurable amount of extra time to swing your sword? Save it. We have enough people arguing over subjective, qualitative bullshit in here already.

If you have the free time between casting to hit the engage button, cast more because you're being a lazy "Abysgimp".

Mageoholic

09-06-2011, 01:57 PM

Fast Cast is not qualative? I am sorry what?

50% fast cast reduces cast time by 28.6% (over 30% fast cast)

(example Slow II 3 second cast, base fast cast = 30%, 3*.7 = 2.1, Wchap/Dtabby = 50% 3*.5 = 1.5, dif = 1.5/2.1 = .714 (28.6) )

This is true for every 3 second cast we use, on our selves or on our allies.

AFv3 increases the composure effect by 35% for all buffs, which is 35% less time having to cycle, and equates to a 35% increase in melee time.

28.6+35% = 63.6% increase to overall melee time per enhancing spell we cast
28.6% increase to melee uptime per enfeebling spells

with 6 hastes alone it is a 3.8% increase to melee uptime.
with 6 refreshes it is a 3.8% increase to melee uptime
with all 12 it is a 7.62% increase to melee uptime.

This applies to nuking damage as well. Fast Cast and AFv3 are a direct damage increase to RDM schools of damage.

This is for swaping into 5 pieces of mage gear btw. which was my point that our AF sets have all enhanced our melee, even though they had primarily mage stats.

Rayik

09-06-2011, 11:43 PM

You'll notice nobody on that forum made any preposterous claims about RDM melee's greatness. No ridiculous assumptions about what RDM is designed to do, not a single mention of lolFencer (it's just a name, folks), nothing. Just some random *** saying Haste isn't good for RDM DoT and somebody else complaining about Empyreans and relic hat being too hard. If you want to be taken seriously... yeah. Not pointing at you in particular, but anybody who has read this thread knows who the *** are.

My point was that a civil discussion on RDM melee has taken place, without the constant nagging and horse-blinders bickering about the why's and why nots. Sure, maybe the advice wasn't so great, but at least they could just discuss a play style without turning it into a 5 thread, 500 page war.

Someone simply said "I like playing this way(lol), what gear would you guys suggest?" and instead of jumping on their high-horses, preaching and shouting about how X job should be played, they *gasp* answered the question and offered suggestions. Imagine that for a second. They even cleared the air right away about how "sub optimal" it is, but at least respected someone's chosen play style.

Neisan_Quetz

09-07-2011, 12:22 AM

If you're casting 6 refreshes there's other problems that need to be addressed before you're thinking about meleeing.

Mageoholic

09-07-2011, 02:35 AM

it is an example to show that you save 63% on every buff you cast. I didn't expect there to be 6 refreshes. So lets say you cast 12 spells every 60 seconds. That is a 7.62% increase to time spent meleeing than it is if you don't gear swap. On a lighter spell casting say 6 spells every 60 seconds you see a 3.8% increase to melee.

Essentially the more you cast the larger % you gain over not swapping into fast cast afv3 set up. Even though your larger total melee time drops.

All it is is a comparison between using Fast Cast and AF3 and not, to provide a bonus to your melee (or nuking). This is gear that has no melee stats giving a 63% (for buffs) and 28.6% (non buffs) increased melee time per spell. Anyone who does not think Fast Cast and AF3+2 set bonus and gear bonus do not provide a direct increase to damage output (be it melee or nuking) is an idiot, plain and simple.

Neisan_Quetz

09-07-2011, 02:47 AM

I don't see it as a direct boost since I'm not required to melee or nuke to benefit from the bonus, but that's just how I look at it.

Rayik

09-07-2011, 02:50 AM

Nevermind on the whole FFXIAH civil melee discussion. A new thread popped up and it's proving to be just as troll-filled and abrasive as the ones we have here.

Karbuncle

09-07-2011, 02:56 AM

Rayik

09-07-2011, 03:04 AM

Thats probably because outside of the RDM melee fanatics, Everyone feels the same way about RDM melee.

My opinion? Already voiced in these threads.

Edit: Also LOL at the idea of going to FFXIAH for civil FFXI Discussion, thats like going to 4Chan expecting intellectual civil conversation.

Yeah, I know. It does happen sometimes. Personally, I'm waiting until after the update to start a new melee thread devoted to just "talking shop", but that depends entirely on what in all happens with the update. Otherwise, we're just going to continue the same song and dance the past 5 related threads are enduring now.

cidbahamut

09-07-2011, 04:12 AM

Nevermind on the whole FFXIAH civil melee discussion. A new thread popped up and it's proving to be just as troll-filled and abrasive as the ones we have here.

It probably didn't help that they posted that one in General rather than the RDM subforum.

TybudX

09-07-2011, 05:57 AM

Someone simply said "I like playing this way(lol), what gear would you guys suggest?" and instead of jumping on their high-horses, preaching and shouting about how X job should be played, they *gasp* answered the question and offered suggestions. Imagine that for a second.

You're missing the part where most 'melee RDMs' don't just ask for advice, they make long-winded and erroneous claims about how the job does function, in it's current state, and they rightfully get corrected. It's not the 'other side's' fault that RDM doesn't come anywhere close to 80% of a melee job, especially while casting any kind of spells, no matter how light the load. It's not the 'other side's' fault that RDM is an incredibly powerful mage job, regardless of what certain people want for the job. And it sure as hell isn't their fault that Temper 'sucks'. It doesn't suck. It's just going to take a whole lot more than a DA spell to turn a job that has nothing going for it as a melee (save an Empyrean) into a real melee job. Sixty levels worth of stuff. You know, like what actual melee jobs got.

Stylin

09-07-2011, 06:37 AM

You're missing the part where most 'melee RDMs' don't just ask for advice, they make long-winded and erroneous claims about how the job does function, in it's current state, and they rightfully get corrected. It's not the 'other side's' fault that RDM doesn't come anywhere close to 80% of a melee job, especially while casting any kind of spells, no matter how light the load. It's not the 'other side's' fault that RDM is an incredibly powerful mage job, regardless of what certain people want for the job. And it sure as hell isn't their fault that Temper 'sucks'. It doesn't suck. It's just going to take a whole lot more than a DA spell to turn a job that has nothing going for it as a melee (save an Empyrean) into a real melee job. Sixty levels worth of stuff. You know, like what actual melee jobs got.

In turn, you're missing the part where nobody asked for a holier-than-thou explanation of why RDM melee is so bad. Spare me the boring rhetoric. This thread was completely civil until people decided to barge in on their high horses to enlighten everyone on why using a sword is so wrong and shouldn't be done.

Greatguardian

09-07-2011, 10:14 AM

This thread was never about civil discourse and the discussion of improvements to the existing Red Mage. Duelle wrote the OP, and he's the most zealous fanatic in here. I'm sorry if it's difficult to actually see what he's saying as abrasive or ignorant just because he writes decently well, but he was the first person in here to call for substantial magic nerfs and an end to the modern Red Mage.

The guy has Charisma, but what he's saying is nothing short of directly antagonistic towards magical Red Mages. The rhetoric perpetuated by Saevel certainly doesn't help matters either (eg, "All real, career mages think like I do. If you disagree, you're a loser Abyssea gimp scrub who doesn't know crap about the job").

The only reason this thread looked remotely civil early on is because everyone posting in it was just sitting around tooting their own horns. I doubt they all even read each others posts for comprehension (derp, like that ever happens on the internet anyways amirite?). It's very easy to be "civil" in an environment like that.

@Mageaholic: The ironic point which you seemed to completely miss was that if you're saving time on casting one thing, you should be utilizing that extra time casting MORE things instead of melee'ing. AF3v2 offers a 0% increase in melee uptime for optimally performing Red Mages. Ideally, all of that time you save on buff timers is being utilized in far more effective ways than swinging a sword.

Stylin

09-07-2011, 11:15 AM

The guy has Charisma, but what he's saying is nothing short of directly antagonistic towards magical Red Mages.

I don't understand where you get that idea. I see one post where he states that people need to weened off of Refresh and Haste, and another admitting that a Red Mage has other options to benefit a party other than meleeing. In fact, I see more information provided from Seriha and Duelle on exactly why Red Mage melee is impractical than I do from all the detractors combined. If you skim the first 25 pages I'm sure you'll find it to be quite fair.

It's actually funny when you think about it. Every single time somebody comes in with a parse or anecdote claiming it's why RDM melee is bad and shouldn't be done, it shows precisely why it needs a buff.

Greatguardian

09-07-2011, 11:51 AM

Economizer

09-07-2011, 12:04 PM

Nerf to Red Mage casting range (5')

I really hope nobody actually suggested this. There is a huge difference between encouraging a Red Mage to melee and gimping everything about it. This "suggestion" definitely would cross that line.

Increasing spell accuracy while meleeing a mob would be a better suggestion, but reducing casting ranges is probably one of the stupidest things I've heard today.

Neisan_Quetz

09-07-2011, 12:07 PM

It's been suggested.

Stylin

09-07-2011, 12:35 PM

From... Duelle's... posts. You know, actually reading them throughout the entire thread and not just the beginning.

The man legitimately believes that Red Mage needs to be nuked and reworked from the ground up in order to be something that he likes more. Barring that, he's called for all of the following at various points:

-Drastic reduction in Red Mage's spell library
-Nerf to Red Mage casting range (5')
-Stance system that would only allow players to cast defensive spells during melee mode (Stoneskin, blink, etc)
-Nerfing of Haste/Refresh and other buffs to Self-only targeting

Duelle doesn't talk about buffing Red Mage melee. He talks about nerfing Red Mage magic and giving Red Mages no option but to pick up a sword in order to be half-functional.

Does this happen on post 1? Nah. But it certainly surfaces quickly enough.

I want to take your word for it, I really do. This thread is just too big to search down a handful of specific posts and quote them for accuracy. There's just no sense in painting someone to be like Joseph Stalin just because they said a few radical hypotheticals to make sword desirable.

As I said earlier, it's easy to be "civil" when everyone agrees with one another. That's not civility though, that's convenience. Blaming the Magical Red Mages for the flaming in this thread is ignorant at best. Pretty much every one of us posting in here with the exception of Shiyo has contributed more solid information and unbiased suggestions for buffing Melee in an unobtrusive way than 12 of the average 10-post "I liek swords" posters here combined.

Alright, I admit it's not fair to blame the mage-only RDMs. However, everything was hunky-dory until somebody tried to suggest that melee is stupid and that everyone that wanted to was stupid.

This thread was resolved ages ago. Red Mage melee will never be viable in a group setting on anything difficult ever.

Not as the game stands currently, but if Square Enix decided to make it work tomorrow then that's their call. Player speculation is not a valid authority on the matter.

RdMelees want random buffs to their melee powers because they find it fun? Mages don't care, as long as the Devs realize that they still have to make stuff for us, too. Bam, done.

That's what the New Thread button is for. Also the topic Karbuncle(I think) created for ideas for magical buffs.

This thread only really exists now for random "Hey we have a forum? Let me post my inane and impossibly overpowered ideas on how to be GOD MODE at melee in this thread" posts, and peacock strutting between people who can't seem to decide whether Red Mage Melee is good right now or not, or even whether they're overworked running buff cycles or just have all the time in the world to melee.

In all honesty, this thread should have been locked a long time ago. There are still a few quality ideas that can be cleaned up and posted in a brand new thread, but it'd only be a matter of time before that one gets dragged down by detractors.

Greatguardian

09-07-2011, 02:00 PM

SCH has a Great Axe skill?

I want to take your word for it, I really do. This thread is just too big to search down a handful of specific posts and quote them for accuracy. There's just no sense in painting someone to be like Joseph Stalin just because they said a few radical hypotheticals to make sword desirable.

You should just read the whole thread, then. I'm not being facetious, I'm just being straight with you. I've read the whole thing, and participated in it for a very long time. It's all well and good to hear talk of "Revitalizing Red Mage melee", but when you get down to the specifics he paints a very unfriendly picture. He likes to reference how WoW supposedly reworked some class from the ground up to make it work the way he/others wanted it to, though I wouldn't know much about that. His endgame has pretty much always been scrapping current Red Mage and turning it into Blue Mage with a better hat and brokenly good abilities.

Alright, I admit it's not fair to blame the mage-only RDMs. However, everything was hunky-dory until somebody tried to suggest that melee is stupid and that everyone that wanted to was stupid.

Well, melee'ing is stupid on a lot of things and a lot of melee-centric Red Mages are stupid. A lot of people in general are stupid though, so really it's not a surprise. The biggest issue is the difference between what certain people want, and what certain people believe is already the case.

Here are the facts:
1) Red Mage melee is absolutely not viable on anything stronger than T level outside Abyssea (or on hard things inside)
2) Red Mage already functions decently as a melee on things that are weaker than EM level
3) Red Mage has never come close to performing as well as a dedicated DD in the melee department at the level cap. We are talking less than half the power of a "real" DD job, even with practically no casting being done.
4) Magic will almost universally be a better use of a Red Mage's time on anything stronger than EM, no matter how much they buff Melee.

Not as the game stands currently, but if Square Enix decided to make it work tomorrow then that's their call. Player speculation is not a valid authority on the matter.

This is a fallacy that I see on these forums a lot. Devs aren't magic. They don't, and probably straight up can't, rewrite or modify the engine that the game is running on right now and the developer toolkit that they are using to mold it. The developers work within the confines of the game as it is right now, not just because they want to, but because they have to. They cannot simply flip a switch and allow players to fly. They can't just make Red Mages gods, either.

What tools do they have to work with? Combat skills, Job Abilities, Job Traits, Weapon Skills, and Spells. What combination of any of these would make Melee *more prominent than casting* on anything HNM-level? None, save turning Red Mage into Primeval Brew.

Can they buff melee? Sure. Can they ever realistically buff it to the point where it is favorable over casting on hard targets? No. Why? Because the intrinsic benefits of back-line magery are vastly superior to whatever DPS Red Mage Melee can bring to the table.

That's what the New Thread button is for. Also the topic Karbuncle(I think) created for ideas for magical buffs.

You're missing the point. It's not about wanting to field suggestions for magical buffs. It's simply a note that every time the Devs spend time sitting around and tweaking swords, that's time they're not spending working on fixes to Red Mage's magical aspect. Do any of us mind a melee buff here or there? Naw. But do we think this needs to be the Developers focus for the next 9 levels? Hell no. Red Mage is a solid job but it could definitely use some tweaking, and frankly we will never consider Melee as anything but a toy. Does it bother me if you like your toy and think it's fun? Nah, go play with it, I don't mind. But I would definitely be upset if the Devs spent all their time tweaking that toy and none on the aspect of Red Mage that people actually use in serious play. Does that make sense?

In all honesty, this thread should have been locked a long time ago. There are still a few quality ideas that can be cleaned up and posted in a brand new thread, but it'd only be a matter of time before that one gets dragged down by detractors.

This thread will just be remade if it's locked. It already has a billion iterations everywhere considering no one bothers posting in this subforum unless it's about melee. That's not to say the majority of forum-goers like melee. It's just that quite a few people are turned off by what more typical/moderate Red Mages would consider fanaticism. Most magical Red Mages just don't have the patience to deal with the melee crowd. They don't exactly have a sterling reputation.

Stylin

09-07-2011, 02:50 PM

You should just read the whole thread, then. I'm not being facetious, I'm just being straight with you. I've read the whole thing, and participated in it for a very long time. It's all well and good to hear talk of "Revitalizing Red Mage melee", but when you get down to the specifics he paints a very unfriendly picture. He likes to reference how WoW supposedly reworked some class from the ground up to make it work the way he/others wanted it to, though I wouldn't know much about that. His endgame has pretty much always been scrapping current Red Mage and turning it into Blue Mage with a better hat and brokenly good abilities.

I'm in the process of rereading this entire thread, and as of page 67 I'm STILL not seeing this "call for a drastic change to the class". I see a few stance ideas and the suggestion that Red Mage should be retooled from the ground up, but nothing as severe as you make it out to be.

Keep in mind that I don't like the idea of rebuilding Red Mage from the ground up, so this isn't an issue of me just conveniently overlooking it.

Well, melee'ing is stupid on a lot of things and a lot of melee-centric Red Mages are stupid. A lot of people in general are stupid though, so really it's not a surprise. The biggest issue is the difference between what certain people want, and what certain people believe is already the case.

Here are the facts:
1) Red Mage melee is absolutely not viable on anything stronger than T level outside Abyssea (or on hard things inside)
2) Red Mage already functions decently as a melee on things that are weaker than EM level
3) Red Mage has never come close to performing as well as a dedicated DD in the melee department at the level cap. We are talking less than half the power of a "real" DD job, even with practically no casting being done.
4) Magic will almost universally be a better use of a Red Mage's time on anything stronger than EM, no matter how much they buff Melee.

Those first three points were established in the first few pages of this very thread by melee supporters.

#4 is just being stubborn. If you want to talk fallacy you should re-evaluate that absolutist mind-set. You don't need to rewrite the game engine to make swords more worth-while.

The only thing I will admit sword being worthless for is HNM and that's only because it's a bad idea for pretty much everyone to be hitting them at all.

You're missing the point. It's not about wanting to field suggestions for magical buffs. It's simply a note that every time the Devs spend time sitting around and tweaking swords, that's time they're not spending working on fixes to Red Mage's magical aspect. Do any of us mind a melee buff here or there? Naw. But do we think this needs to be the Developers focus for the next 9 levels? Hell no. Red Mage is a solid job but it could definitely use some tweaking, and frankly we will never consider Melee as anything but a toy. Does it bother me if you like your toy and think it's fun? Nah, go play with it, I don't mind. But I would definitely be upset if the Devs spent all their time tweaking that toy and none on the aspect of Red Mage that people actually use in serious play. Does that make sense?

No, it doesn't make sense at all, primarily because SE is more than one person. Assuming we can only get a buff to melee or magic is just silly and unfounded.

So again, if you want adjustments to the magical aspects feel free to make a new thread. The thread dedicated to melee adjustments is not the place for it.

This thread will just be remade if it's locked. It already has a billion iterations everywhere considering no one bothers posting in this subforum unless it's about melee. That's not to say the majority of forum-goers like melee. It's just that quite a few people are turned off by what more typical/moderate Red Mages would consider fanaticism. Most magical Red Mages just don't have the patience to deal with the melee crowd. They don't exactly have a sterling reputation.

I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Seriha

09-07-2011, 04:46 PM

Perhaps for your own sanity, Sty, I'd propose a greater consideration on whether or not you wish to further the current conversation.

It's no secret both sides are sick of each other, and it's hard to perceive any genuine civility when indirect insults get thrown around in hopes of avoiding moderation. Yeah, some of us "stupid melee RDMs" notice those things. And while I won't agree with Due on all things, GG's attempt to vilify him is but another example of the perpetual rancor.

At its simplest, the presentation hinged on how Blizzard attempted to handle similar hybrid issues in WoW, namely how Paladins were often stuck healing and supporting in raids instead of being a more traditionally viewed tank class or holy damage dealer of sorts. While conceptual problems can be shared between the two games, both are built on different foundations. To that end, one thing that worked there might be outright impossible here. Blizzard also arguably has the means to totally revamp a class should they so choose, too.

Naturally, honing in on range variance and possible spell library restrictions would set off giant, buzzing alarms for those content with the now, but ultimately they'd rather froth at the proposition instead of understanding an interest in balance depending on how the finalized styles came to be. Conceptually, that level of detail was never reached, but the vaguest of suppositions certainly left their negative mark. He and I have had conversations of the notion in private, and while I urged him not to suggest what inevitably was, namely for this very reason, I can at least respect trying to bring something to the table other than, "Fixing RDM melee is impossible so SE shouldn't try!"

Nowadays, some might liken the idea to SCH's Arts and Addenda then bemoan how a loss of "access to everything" would utterly destroy the class, but it's just a blanket fear of change. Done right, I have no doubt a revamp could work, but I can't expect it, nor would I champion it over building upon what's currently present in the game and SE's track record of sluggishness. Given the list of points I brought up very early in the thread, I'd hope it would support that claim. And while it's fun to theorycraft on new things from time to time, there is no pursuit of God Mode from the people genuinely interested in solving this problem. Maybe a joke here and there to ruffle the opposition's feathers, but that God Mode notion is pretty much more mudslinging to sully the cause, too.

Regardless, you won't be changing their minds just as they can't change mine or others for melee improvements. It's all in SE's court after we've screamed in their back yard. Temper aside, I can't quite say they're listening to us yet. The big picture still needs to unravel with possible skill and WS adjustments, then whatever they have in mind for enfeebles and resistance issues.

Rayik

09-07-2011, 08:42 PM

Here are the facts:
3) Red Mage has never come close to performing as well as a dedicated DD in the melee department at the level cap. We are talking less than half the power of a "real" DD job, even with practically no casting being done.

Didn't Doom already disprove this? With hard numbers? The rest of your "facts" are spot on though.

This is a fallacy that I see on these forums a lot. Devs aren't magic. They don't, and probably straight up can't, rewrite or modify the engine that the game is running on right now and the developer toolkit that they are using to mold it. The developers work within the confines of the game as it is right now, not just because they want to, but because they have to. They cannot simply flip a switch and allow players to fly. They can't just make Red Mages gods, either.

What tools do they have to work with? Combat skills, Job Abilities, Job Traits, Weapon Skills, and Spells. What combination of any of these would make Melee *more prominent than casting* on anything HNM-level? None, save turning Red Mage into Primeval Brew.

Why does it always go back to HNM's? Aren't these the same NM's that not even actual DD's are even melee'ing on due to tp feed? There's a bigger game out there than just HNM's, and by being a versatile hybrid we can use magic in situations where melee is not viable. We're not asking for RDM's to be "gods", we're not asking to melee 100% of the time, on 100% of the game's content. If that's what you really think, you have seriously misread a majority of the debate. We're not all Duelle. I like Duelle, but I don't agree with his approach. I think you are unfairly exaggerating this entire topic.

Can they buff melee? Sure. Can they ever realistically buff it to the point where it is favorable over casting on hard targets? No. Why? Because the intrinsic benefits of back-line magery are vastly superior to whatever DPS Red Mage Melee can bring to the table.

Missing the point of RDM melee entirely. Not sure of you realize this, but by auto-attacking a mob, you don't have to actively attack something in lieu of spellcasting; the attacks come on their own, in between spells. Fast Cast, a native trait that RDM excels in even without gear, does wonders for this. Unless you are running some script/app whatever that has you absolutely casting a spells every single millisecond of the game. RDM melee damage is supplemental; it's like an extra DoT, that just happens to feed mad tp to the mob. This is not practical in the current phase of the game, and we are all aware.

The anti-melee side seems to think that we magically stop casting spells the moment we step up and swing. Casting spells does slow down the rate of our melee attacks, but they're still there. A clever rdm can even time their spells to coincide with their attacks better. Mindblowing concept, I know.

You're missing the point. It's not about wanting to field suggestions for magical buffs. It's simply a note that every time the Devs spend time sitting around and tweaking swords, that's time they're not spending working on fixes to Red Mage's magical aspect. Do any of us mind a melee buff here or there? Naw. But do we think this needs to be the Developers focus for the next 9 levels? Hell no. Red Mage is a solid job but it could definitely use some tweaking, and frankly we will never consider Melee as anything but a toy. Does it bother me if you like your toy and think it's fun? Nah, go play with it, I don't mind. But I would definitely be upset if the Devs spent all their time tweaking that toy and none on the aspect of Red Mage that people actually use in serious play. Does that make sense?

Speaking of fallacies... The Devs are already working on the mage-side of RDM. They have been for a long time, and when 99 rolls around, RDM will be an even more powerful mage than before. What is OMG SO TERRIBLE about that fact that the Dev's are FINALLY paying some attention to a broken, unbalanced piece of the game? RDM melee has been there since day 1. It's been mistreated and ignored for a long, long time, maybe they're trying to set the record straight? Is it really so impossible to imagine that the Dev's could possible be looking into multiple aspects of a job simultaneously? They've already said they are working on enfeebles and enhancements. There are still several levels to go. Seriously, let us have our melee update for once, for crying out loud. It's not like the job is finished after this update; the game will continue to get updates even after lvl 99 is reached. Chill.

This thread will just be remade if it's locked. It already has a billion iterations everywhere considering no one bothers posting in this subforum unless it's about melee. That's not to say the majority of forum-goers like melee. It's just that quite a few people are turned off by what more typical/moderate Red Mages would consider fanaticism. Most magical Red Mages just don't have the patience to deal with the melee crowd. They don't exactly have a sterling reputation.

I've said before, I respect your skills and knowledge on the job. But really, you have been one of the loudest, most arrogant and condescending anti-melee voices on this entire forum. Whenever someone even mentioned how to possibly make melee viable, you came in on your high horse stomping and shouting down anyone who disagreed with you. If another thread gets made, you'd likely run in and crap all over it too. You have had a very heavy hand in turning this thread into a warzone, instead of simply letting those "few" of us who enjoy melee, ya know, actually have a discussion about melee. The fact that even SE sees a need to at least make some kind of adjustment in melee's favor just isn't even enough for you. You have to have the job your way or else. It seems impossible to you that you are somehow not a doctrined, deputized official SE authority on the job, and that other people may play the job differently than you.

I honestly think RDM melee could have been more viable before now, if players were allowed to actually discuss the obstacles we face, without getting shouted down and suppressed every time we bring it up. If we could find the reasons exactly why it doesn't work without having to defend ourselves from getting trolled every other post, we probably could have found a better resolution to the entire situation a long time ago.

Karbuncle

09-07-2011, 08:44 PM

i think the only thing Doom proved was a Great Geared Empyrean RDM can out DD Full AF1 pick up noobs.

He didn't even scratch the potential of the real DD in the party.

Rayik

09-07-2011, 09:05 PM

i think the only thing Doom proved was a Great Geared Empyrean RDM can out DD Full AF1 pick up noobs.

He didn't even scratch the potential of the real DD in the party.

Is that so terrible, though? I think had he successfully out-damaged a true DD, there would have been more of an issue. He still dished out pretty nice numbers, and in the long run, it was more damage than he would have done sitting on the backline. RDM melee isn't about replacing any specialist DD, it's to add extra support damage, at least in my opinion.

Crimson_Slasher

09-07-2011, 09:17 PM

To the person who said rdm cant be made to do heavy damage through JA/JT/Stat/Spell methods, i can just spell out an idea based upon my rdm to show thats a load of crap, ill even post a reasonable one.

Ethreal Charged (Ether is the potion for MP, this is a JA, with a 3-5 min duration, and recast)
-Upon strike, adds % of current MP to Enspell damage.

Now lets look at my melee rdm, im rocking nearly 700MP in my tp build and ws build, at 1% i gain 7% enspell damage, at 5% 35 enspell damage, at 10% 70 enspell damage, at 15% 105 enspell damage. And this doesnt contribute to the base enspell damage. Now what makes this balanced? Any casting while slowing our swings takes away from our damage overheads, but thankfully our refresh spell makes up for this by ticking back that mp rather proficiently, and you can bet, that percent based damage is right up square's alley. It still doesnt even touch drk's soul eater for damage, but conversely can be kept up longer. And if there were gear to add percentages to this (preferably in the neck, ring, or earing slots) we start to see some sharp numbers, even at 20% where we are adding a bonus 140 damage before the native 20ish enspell damage, then tack on whatever damage you hit atop that. Get a +2 Khanda 2-4 hitter, and either a joytoy, or a 2-3 Khanda +1 and you now have a 2-7 hitting rdm landing 163 damage overhead per strike, and my rdm has 24% haste gear, goading or a v-belt would push that more. So with one JA, set to 10%-20%, my attack rounds land...lets say 15 base damage, 21 enspell damage, and we will use the 15%'s 105 damage, so per attack im landing 141 damage x2-7, at the low end, 282, at the upper end, 987 per attack round. And a delay of... 163.68 with dual wield III, suppa, 24% haste, and haste spell, which means that with haste samba (merited) id be 1%~ from haste cap (though that wouldnt work upon reflection as enspells do not stack with sambas...), and my damage overtime would be crazy, and seeing as they can use the soul eater code as a base, removing the hp(mp) consumption, and making it check current mp, it can simplify how quickly this ability could be developed.

Edit: I forgot to add this MP is based roughly on mine outside of abyssea. So this would scale sharply in abyssea, especially with a refresh atma, or MP*+% atmas.

Karbuncle

09-07-2011, 09:19 PM

Is that so terrible, though? I think had he successfully out-damaged a true DD, there would have been more of an issue. He still dished out pretty nice numbers, and in the long run, it was more damage than he would have done sitting on the backline. RDM melee isn't about replacing any specialist DD, it's to add extra support damage, at least in my opinion.

Not saying it was terrible, Just saying it really proved nothing that we didn't already know, RDM is a competently mediocre DD who with the right gear can outperform absolutely terrible players.

I don't mind the whole RDM melee debate personally, and while i wont recite my entire feelings (dig em up!), I feel the discussion isn't too horrible.

saevel

09-07-2011, 09:33 PM

i think the only thing Doom proved was a Great Geared Empyrean RDM can out DD Full AF1 pick up noobs.

He didn't even scratch the potential of the real DD in the party.

Considering I was part of that debate and I pointed out some VERY inconsistent numbers (600 average CDC is BS) I feel pretty qualified in saying that the WAR in that PT wasn't a crappy DD. The MNK who was in the thread even corrected me when I told him (on purpose) that they had picked out some lol AH WAR to play the part of the dudd. That WAR was well geared, he just wasn't super geared like the MNK was. Also I believe from looking over the numbers that the MNK was ridding CS full time and doing everything possible to full time tank, this inflated his numbers to unrealistic portions. Throwing another identical MNK into that group would not of yielded such large amounts of DPS.

Doom did about right considering he was playing a worst case scenario (high def / VIT monsters with heavy magic resistance and -mdt). He kept up with the non-emp but well geared / played WAR, and the BLU was just afk constantly. Give the WAR an Ukon and he would of pulled ahead by a good chunk, but that's to be expected considering WAR is a pure DD class.

At 75 it was 80% of a "Pure DD", this was me vs myself (SAM / WAR vs RDM) at the same camp over a period of time, I'm an extremely aggressive DD and keep on-top of all my JA's and gear swaps. Since then the "Pure DDs" have gotten a ton of new gear and buffs, their Emp armor is awesome, RDM has gotten shafted in melee gear, thankfully our Emp armor is made of win but not really for melee. If we had Sang Blade natively our Emp armor would make a perfect WS macro set. Due to all this, "Pure DDs" have pulled ahead even further, we're possibly 50~70% of a "Pure DD" now, with the situation heavily depending on weapon selection. SE just needs to add us on all the DNC/THF/NIN/BLU type gear they keep making, thankfully next update it looks like we're on much of it. Give us Sword EX weapon skills and it would even things out for the non-Emp crowd (CDC really is a zero to hero type of change).

Rayik

09-07-2011, 09:45 PM

Not saying it was terrible, Just saying it really proved nothing that we didn't already know, RDM is a competently mediocre DD who with the right gear can outperform absolutely terrible players.

I don't mind the whole RDM melee debate personally, and while i wont recite my entire feelings (dig em up!), I feel the discussion isn't too horrible.

Right on, but I'm just saying given all our spells and abilities we have at our disposal, even while melee'ing, we shouldn't be dealing top tier damage. That'd be beyond broken. We have other spells beside the obvious melee buffs that help us in melee as well, and happen to help the rest of the party; our basic enfeebles such as Paralyze, Blind, etc are just more tools in the toolkit that make the mob easier to kill. Period. I'm perfectly fine doing mediocre damage if I can effectively cripple the mob simultaneously. That's what separates us from standard DD's like WAR and SAM. That's why we'll never(and should never) be dealing damage on par with those jobs.

Neisan_Quetz

09-07-2011, 09:47 PM

That War was terrible or at least playing the part of a terrible one.

saevel

09-07-2011, 10:03 PM

That War was terrible or at least playing the part of a terrible one.

And by what logic do you use to base this conclusion on? That he was dealing similar damage to an Emp RDM?

I've already gone over their parse data with a fine toothed comb, the WAR wasn't terrible, merely not an Emp WAR.

I smelled something wasn't quite right, I don't trust parses done by of RDM's who are not themselves a RDM, they usually have ulterior motives and tend to set the RDM up to fail. I played along and dealt out the whole "WAR must of been terrible" argument, the MNK took the bait and responded. The WAR wasn't terrible it turns out, the BLU was. The MNK was an outstandingly geared Emp monk who was CS tanking and also was parsing himself. He also pulled the dirty trick of "turned off the parse when someone (most likely him) died".

So really that parse was crap from the get out and the reason I tell people to ignore the "percent of total damage done" part of parses, it's meaningless. Instead look at the min / max / average damage per hit, average WS damage, melee accuracy, cure amount, damage taken and so forth.

Neisan_Quetz

09-07-2011, 10:10 PM

* 12% haste in TP set
* V bhuj
* fulltime what looks to be Spiral Ring
* Aesir Ear pendant
* Ares Cuirass
*Pole Grip and maining RR

That war was terrible.

Economizer

09-07-2011, 10:11 PM

So really that parse was crap from the get out and the reason I tell people to ignore the "percent of total damage done" part of parses, it's meaningless. Instead look at the min / max / average damage per hit, average WS damage, melee accuracy, cure amount, damage taken and so forth.

Percentage of damage done won't tell you much if you have a Red Mage casting Dia III on a mob, hasting other people, or opening skillchains for other party members. All that extra damage is caused by the Red Mage.

SpankWustler

09-07-2011, 10:57 PM

I smelled something wasn't quite right, I don't trust parses done by of RDM's who are not themselves a RDM, they usually have ulterior motives and tend to set the RDM up to fail. I played along and dealt out the whole "WAR must of been terrible" argument, the MNK took the bait and responded. The WAR wasn't terrible it turns out, the BLU was. The MNK was an outstandingly geared Emp monk who was CS tanking and also was parsing himself. He also pulled the dirty trick of "turned off the parse when someone (most likely him) died".

The Warrior was mediocre at best, and the Blue Mage was there for decorative purposes at best. The Blue Mage was actually so awful that some people thought there might be an error somewhere because of his low accuracy and other numbers, until things were examined.

I'd say that Doom performed very well, and it goes to show that effort and intelligent equipment are more important than many things. I hope to see something similar after Temper is out.

Instead look at the min / max / average damage per hit, average WS damage, melee accuracy, cure amount, damage taken and so forth.

When you can escape the grips of your crippling paranoia, you post some intelligent things. Actual performance is equally important to performance compared to the worst Blue Mage to ever be Blue on a Mage, or compared to a well-equipped Monk for that matter. I think a lot of folks already know this, but it bears repeating.

If there was any issue with the parse, honestly, it was that everyone but Gokku and Doombringer weren't so hot. The Warrior and the Blue Mage provided less than stellar damage, and Doombringer had to take over Hastes and help with Cures for a bit for some reason which I'm sure detracted from the result.

I think it was cool of Doom to help out with that stuff even knowing it would have a negative effect on his damage while being parsed, but yeah.

saevel

09-07-2011, 11:54 PM

* 12% haste in TP set
* V bhuj
* fulltime what looks to be Spiral Ring
* Aesir Ear pendant
* Ares Cuirass
*Pole Grip and maining RR

That war was terrible.

You do realize that's average right?

Jesus are we back to the days of "everyone must have a relic or their gimp"?

Seriously RDM TP gear, with the exception of a few pieces is on the same level of what you just quoted. The fact that he had a V bhuj and an Ares Cuirass places him slightly above the average.

Learn what 50% means, its not 1%, 5%, 10% or 20%, its 50% and thus average. If you line up 100 random WAR's and do a gear check, what level will 50% of them be at, that level is thus "average" not the two to five who are extremely well geared.

cidbahamut

09-08-2011, 12:02 AM

Because capping haste is hard for WAR, right?

If you line up 100 random Warriors, most of them will be terrible gimps with no idea of how to gear themselves, but I don't see how that's really relevant to anything other than a discussion of how ignorant the playerbase may or may not be.

Karbuncle

09-08-2011, 12:05 AM

lol @ 12% Haste being average.

it doesn't help a debate to exaggerate. Average is 25%/26%(shown) Haste in gear. Anything below that is tard-tier for a DD (especially a WAR...)

Economizer

09-08-2011, 12:13 AM

lol @ 12% Haste being average.

I have 19% Haste on White Mage with easy to get gear (the single hardest piece to get was a Swift Belt) for my melee set.

While I wouldn't tell the Warrior with 12% Haste gear anything about it (especially if we weren't having any trouble killing the mob), I wouldn't think that was average Warrior performance either, unless the WAR had some sort of insane setup that made it out damage a Ninja with capped delay reduction with only 12% Haste.

Rayik

09-08-2011, 12:20 AM

12% haste is pretty bad, honestly. You can get 13% for next to nothing, just Wally turban, NQ dusk hands and feet, Headlong belt. WAR gets crazy amounts of haste gear. My WAR is nothing special, and I have more haste gear than I know what to do with.

Daniel_Hatcher

09-08-2011, 01:04 AM

23% Haste is probably more average for almost all jobs.

Mirage

09-08-2011, 01:13 AM

12% haste is terrible because you get 14% from full perle, and 18% with just that and a swift belt. Because of that alone, I would call a war with less than 18% terrible (and a fucking retard, if he's level 78 or more), 20-21% average, and 25% good.

If you can't get past 18% on war, I would suggest you TPed in full perle anyway, cause that will give you the same haste, and probably better overall stats than using stuff like turboturban and dusk. I think it's actually a bit ridiculous to see someone gearing to get the same haste as full perle gives you by using other pieces, instead of just using that set.

Daniel_Hatcher

09-08-2011, 01:16 AM

12% haste is terrible because you get 14% from full perle, and 18% with just that and a swift belt. Because of that alone, I would call a war with less than 18% terrible, 20-21% average, and 25% good.

I'll assume you mean 26% good as 25% is below cap.

Neisan_Quetz

09-08-2011, 01:18 AM

25% is the actual cap for equipment haste, 26% in gear is due to rounding since haste on a n/1024 value.

cidbahamut

09-08-2011, 01:20 AM

I'll assume you mean 26% good as 25% is below cap.

The story I heard was that it actually depends on the gear. Different fraction values in actual back end math, but the same % listed on the front end. Someone who's more familiar with it could tell you more.

Neisan_Quetz

09-08-2011, 01:20 AM

Pretty much, even the spell haste isn't 15%, it's 14.6% iirc.

Mirage

09-08-2011, 01:24 AM

I'll assume you mean 26% good as 25% is below cap.
What i mean is 25% and above. The cap is 25.6% or something.

-edit-
To reply to the posts that popped up while i wrote this post.
The reason why people go for 26% is because then they're certain to be at the cap regardless of whatever fractions the gear pieces operate with. 25.8% is just as capped as 26.2% is.

Daniel_Hatcher

09-08-2011, 01:24 AM

The story I heard was that it actually depends on the gear. Different fraction values in actual back end math, but the same % listed on the front end. Someone who's more familiar with it could tell you more.

It does, it's why it just makes it easier to always go for 26% instead of hoping said gear is correctly labelled.

TybudX

09-08-2011, 05:59 AM

The anti-melee side seems to think that we magically stop casting spells the moment we step up and swing.

The melee RDM side seems to think that we magically stop casting spells, like... ever.

Gokku

09-08-2011, 06:36 AM

so much to reply to ... were to start. the Parse you can make up w/e info you want about me picking the wrong mobs or w/e you could add in what ever theoretical misgivings to justify what you want. i sent him a tell in good faith and worked with him on what jobs we would have , attempted to acquire 2 brds and a ideal party set up but no one wants to exp to collect data so i took what i could get by offering currency to others.

Seeing how ive out parsed 17 other players COMBINED in a abyssea alliance party before ( and yes i can post that log also) i was thoroughly impressed with his performance. that being said ill leave an open challenge to any redmage who thinks they can do a better job to step up to the plate. Your party Your mob type etc. You can even Pick if i come war or monk ill run the parse you can get others so there's copy's of the data idc. But until someone else steps up he stands as the only redmage with the balls to do so and gets my respect for it. all the rest of you crying about sub optimal gear are just looking for an excuse.

P.S. better hurry im working on my Ukon for my war and already got my Ebody+1 with augments!

Hyrist

09-08-2011, 07:16 AM

The melee RDM side seems to think that we magically stop casting spells, like... ever.

Oh yeah, you never stop casting. *eyeroll*

Example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ReopFQsirQ&feature=related)

I mean, he was so important he had to be a mule to do his casting load.

TybudX

09-08-2011, 07:27 AM

Oh yeah, you never stop casting. *eyeroll*

Example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ReopFQsirQ&feature=related)

I mean, he was so important he had to be a mule to do his casting load.

Oh yeah, and that COR, prime example of playing it to the limit, right? What is your point, though? Do you think RDM should even be able to melee VW mobs right now?

Hyrist

09-08-2011, 07:46 AM

No my point is the anti-melee argument is just as sucessptible for reality checks as the pro melee side.

Cut the hyperbole.

As far as the when's and hows of when RDM should be able to function in the front line, that should be up to discussion, right?

Low tier NMs and Fodder mobs are easily within the limits IMO. But I think if RDM is going to contribute anything to the front lines on mobs harder than that, they're going to need something a bit more unique unless the group is overkill on tanking and curing capacity. Which, there are some groups like that.

There's a lot of claims of 'cant and can' going around that everyone wants to try to prove or disprove, but that can be a topic on its own, going around, getting accurate data on how things work or don't work for RDMs that DO pratice frontlining, and confirming/denying their claims.

It doesn't have to be a constant invasion of OTHER threads to harass players who don't play your preferred style.

Believe me when I say most people, don't play to the level you expect them to, that goes for all jobs and all styles.

The standards a lot of the forums try to enforce is nothing short of elitism, and it's frankly kind of upsetting. You can always make considerations about the absolute peak performance if you wish, that's fine. But forcing that expectation on others when you don't know the context in which they play is blind and arrogant.

So let's chill out about it. I don't care who's doing the attacks or counter-attacks in arguments but it needs to stop. It's a pointless derail.

Cause all we're doing is cutting each other down in this thread and both sides end up saying stupid crap in the process. Nobody's perfect no one method is going to be for everyone, and SE's already stated they're not going to be neglecting either aspect. So the bickering really is just there for people's personal gratification.

I'd prefer we try to have a positive spin on things, because we're all playing to enjoy ourselves, and if not, then why do you bother paying to play?

A better discussion to be having is the when's and hows. Not the should's and whys. Because no matter how had you guys argue it down, Front Line RDMS aren't going away. Why not just carve out a good niche for them, and move the discussion to how a RDM could be more attractive and functional in that niche, and what various rewards could be deamed for it?

I for one would like to see some good use for things like Walk of Echoes, hopefully with a few more battlefield type events that will give rewards that are in context for that or similar events. That way you don't have to worry about RDMs going into events that are back-line orientated wanting to lot on Melee gear and rewards. Keep it all in context to what they're doing.

Doombringer

09-08-2011, 08:45 AM

my ears are burning. <3 you too gokku.

i'm just thinking out loud but.... even IF i only beat that blu and war because they "sucked"... would they get laughed out of a party?

trust me.. i hate "that guy" meleeing with his joyeuse and errant body even more than you do.. i've been fighting against "his" reputation for years. but we're not ALL that guy.. my rdm was never flagged up and subbing nin at the same time.. ever.... yet people act like i came to there house and punched there child the second i advocate anything other than a staff :\

also, can we drop the conspiracy theory around the parse? it was shown in it's entirety. pretty hard to game the results when you disclose EVERYTHING. i mean if he'd just posted final % with no context (skeletons!) then maybe you'd have a case. example: if counter is an issue, the parse shows counter dmg... just remove that from his total?

it wasn't an epeen thing anyway, did anybody think i was gonna win? i just wanted to put some real numbers into the discussion. people were screaming everything from 80% to 10%. at least now we have a baseline to argue from.

SpankWustler

09-08-2011, 09:03 AM

I'd prefer we try to have a positive spin on things, because we're all playing to enjoy ourselves, and if not, then why do you bother paying to play?

Wait, this is why we're playing? I thought we were playing to make other people enjoy themselves less. Dang. Back to the drawing board for me. Time to delete my 4 dozen Diaga macros for every situation. Dang.

cidbahamut

09-08-2011, 09:04 AM

Wait, this is why we're playing? I thought we were playing to make other people enjoy themselves less. Dang. Back to the drawing board for me. Time to delete my 4 dozen Diaga macros for every situation. Dang.

I knew my macro palette was missing something.

SpankWustler

09-08-2011, 09:11 AM

I knew my macro palette was missing something.

I recommend putting it right next to whatever sleep spells you like to use. In the case of Red Mage, between Sleep I and Sleep II is an excellent spot.

SpankWustler

09-08-2011, 09:58 AM

i'm just thinking out loud but.... even IF i only beat that blu and war because they "sucked"... would they get laughed out of a party?

This is one way to look at it, now that you mention it. The Blue Mage was worse than mine and mine is pretty bad, but he wasn't wielding the finest club his moghouse had to offer and he wasn't trying to whack things while wearing Mahatma Slops. I assume he would remain securely lodged in most parties.

As for the Warrior, I'm now thinking that maybe the question was rhetorical and I'm too high on painkillers to get that, because he'd definitely remain in any given pick-up organization.

Also, I think it's awesome that you went into the parse looking for numbers in general rather than trying to wring out one or two more percent. You're a cool guy and I hope you and Gokku get together for something similar after Temper is released.

TybudX

09-08-2011, 10:25 AM

The standards a lot of the forums try to enforce is nothing short of elitism, and it's frankly kind of upsetting. You can always make considerations about the absolute peak performance if you wish, that's fine. But forcing that expectation on others when you don't know the context in which they play is blind and arrogant.

Nobody is setting some super standard here for gimps to live up to. I fully understand that there are people out there that are barely capable of keeping up the pace of that RDM mule in the video you posted, but do you seriously think the answer to them being shitty players is to make their melee worthwhile on harder NMs? So that they can auto-attack away while they don't nuke, don't debuff, don't reapply buffs, etc? If you can run yourself out of MP between Converts with whatever support you have, and nobody is going to die if you don't hMP and start spamming cures again, go ahead and melee whatever the fuck you want. I don't care if it's a fodder mob or a tier IV VW mob. More power to you.

What I don't like is people asking for changes or boosts to RDMs melee capabilities when there are only nine levels left to go. Sorry, four levels left to go, and thank you RDM melee crowd for getting us all stuck with Temper on a job that has no real way to use it. It's funny, I'm sure if RDM had gotten Fencer instead there would have been a lot less complaining from the pro-melee side. Situational and mostly useless, vs. a (minimum) 5% increase in melee damage across the board? Yeah, complain about that one a little more. Any real melee job would f***ing kill for a flat out 5% increase in damage.

Greatguardian

09-08-2011, 11:39 AM

Crimson_Slasher

09-08-2011, 11:40 AM

Stylin

09-08-2011, 11:41 AM

but do you seriously think the answer to them being shitty players is to make their melee worthwhile on harder NMs? So that they can auto-attack away while they don't nuke, don't debuff, don't reapply buffs, etc?

Wow, it's like you're not even reading what anybody is saying. Not surprising.

What I don't like is people asking for changes or boosts to RDMs melee capabilities when there are only nine levels left to go. Sorry, four levels left to go, and thank you RDM melee crowd for getting us all stuck with Temper on a job that has no real way to use it.

You seem to be under the impression that the updates are going to stop once we hit 99. If it worries you so much that Red Mage won't get any more magical buffs then go make a new thread. I don't understand why you people need to keep acting like a victim. Take some damn responsibility and quit acting like everything is the big bad boogeyman melee RDM's fault.

Greatguardian

09-08-2011, 11:43 AM

The rdm melee croud is proud of temper, but we felt 5% is NOT sufficient when many other jobs get superior results at lower levels that require 0 effort to upkeep, additionally its those that want us to not melee who are truely complaining versus our suggestions to see it improved.

Comparing a Red Mage melee spell to a Warrior trait is silly. Warriors melee. That's all they do. If you want to make a fair comparison, compare Red Mage melee buffs to White Mage melee buffs.

TybudX

09-08-2011, 12:58 PM

Anybody who isn't happy with a 5% increase in their DoT from a single spell or ability... I can't finish this sentence without having the whole post modded. *** . You think a healthy balance is making it on par with the same trait as a job that doesn't bring anything to the table except damage? So much for hybrid class. I tell you what, I'll trade you whatever WAR's next JA is for Temper.

And yeah, updates are going to keep coming, sure. SE has an awesome track record of making warranted changes to the game over the years. I have faith that they will get to work on all that job balancin' that needs to be done, once they roll out 99.

SpankWustler

09-08-2011, 01:52 PM

I would have kicked both of those Parse gimps (the WAR and BLU) from my party if they had ever managed to get into it somehow, assuming I actually gave a crap about their contribution to the group. I have no problem with leeching as long as it doesn't negatively affect me in some way, and that's essentially what they'd be doing.

Yeah, by my standards they would have both either been promptly ejected or sent one-at-a-time to "solo pearlescent light" (on Hanuman, Hedjedjet, a Tier II VNM if I thought it could kill them, etc.) until they felt sad and angry and left. However, I'd never actively make a pick-up party in the first place so I'm not sure my standards are fit to judge such a beast.

It just feels weird to me to judge something that I wouldn't do by my standards, although I totally agree with your judgements.

For the record, I also wouldn't kick Doom from my party since he's proven to be competent at what he does, assuming I don't straight up need him to be doing something else while he's whacking things. Your average Melee Red Mage, or at least the picture that the community has come to enjoy of one, is a full teal joyeuse-swinging retard who uses fast blade, refuses to cast any spells on anyone but themselves, and doesn't gear swap.

Gimp players are gimp and playing with retards is never a good idea, but a retard who casts haste and cures is a million times more useful than a retard who tries to attack things with a B rank weapon, no melee traits, and no melee gear. If we absolutely have to deal with the lowest common denominator, playing Magical Rdm is definitely a safer bet.

I remember the first time I met this dude. It was actually pretty well into my FFXI career. Treasures of Aht Urhgan had been out for a little while and I was leveling Blue Mage. I had just learned Magic Fruit a few levels ago. This was a very good thing, because that fellow seemed to have never used his scroll of Cure IV.

He did, however, know En-Aero. He was casting it because it was Windsday. We were fighting Puks. After some time, I guess when the day changed, he switched to another en-spell but the damage to my will to exist had been done.

I unplugged my modem after about a half hour. I think some kind of experience ring was still active on me.

I prefer to think that this one awful Red Mage is exactly that. One guy who is so awful that he is somehow multiple characters on multiple servers. He is the avatar of awful, who carried awfulness with him and leaves awfulness in his wake. A folk "hero" of awfulness.

I have the opposite experience with lowest common denominators, though. In my experience, somebody thick as a brick tends to flat-out wander off when set to a task as "dull" as providing support. I'd rather such a simple soul just engage the monster in full Teal so I know what I'm getting right out of the bag, with the bonus that the problem will probably "go away" if I choose not to cure it.

I guess what I'm saying in a really roundabout and opioid-dulled way is that I'd be shocked if there were any daft people who could do anything other than auto-engage to much effect; so I feel there is no "safe" role for an incompetent player. Other than soloing Hanuman and other not-total-joke timed spawn monsters in Abyssea. I speak with the voice of experience when I say they're super at that.

Hyrist

09-08-2011, 02:35 PM

I'm not happy about it, honestly. You guys are like "If you're not happy about a 5% melee improvement..." When you completely neglect the fact that guess what, RDM comes packed with 15% haste in the form of a spell, something that's often taken for granted by Melee that they always have on them by default, yet, it is far, FAR more substantial than a Brutal Earring.

But what puts me on pause and perplexes me for the moment is how Camate pretty much said "It stacks with everything." Making me wonder if it stacks with multi-attack weapons like Joyeuse. A 5% chance of adding to an OA# that also can add to a weapon skill hit is somewhat more significant. Half of a DA trait may not be so, not given the lack of pure per-hit damage RDM has.

I'm sure a Warrior with (near)Capped pDif would love an additional 5% double attack (if they're not already hitting the cap.) due to how nice that great axe hits for.

But I'm honestly at this point hoping some of the WS fixes gives RDM some more substantial WS numbers otherwise it really won't be all that much of an impact. Every bit is appreciated, but that doesn't quite sate my thirst for more balancing on our Martial end.

SpankWustler

09-08-2011, 02:48 PM

Temper is going to be adjusted to increase with enhancing magic skill somehow, so it's going to be more than 5% when it's implemented. Nobody knows how much more and it's really pointless to guess, but it will be more than 5%.

Camate mentions it here. I guess it's not active on the test server yet? (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13838-SE-Temper-Activation-Rate?p=183938&viewfull=1#post183938)

TybudX

09-08-2011, 05:02 PM

... you completely neglect the fact that guess what, RDM comes packed with 15% haste in the form of a spell, something that's often taken for granted by Melee that they always have on them by default, yet, it is far, FAR more substantial than a Brutal Earring.

Nobody is taking Haste for granted. Then again, nobody is taking Brutal Earring for granted, either. Last I checked it was a staple TP piece, and one of the best WS earrings in the game.

But what puts me on pause and perplexes me for the moment is how Camate pretty much said "It stacks with everything." Making me wonder if it stacks with multi-attack weapons like Joyeuse.

More than likely it functions exactly like DA trait.

I'm sure a Warrior with (near)Capped pDif would love an additional 5% double attack (if they're not already hitting the cap.) due to how nice that great axe hits for.

It's good enough that 3 Att and 1% DA on an earring is better than anything except Brutal Earring.

Seriha

09-08-2011, 05:52 PM

Rather simply, upkeep aside, Temper justifies a higher activation when you consider the spells you should be expecting the RDM to cast. Every single time they do that, they're losing attack rounds. Every single time they do that, they're losing ground against the accepted damage dealers and perpetuating the stereotype regardless of how hard they try. I'm sure at some point you could correlate a required amount of DA and Fast Cast to basically emulate single attacking consistently, but I strongly doubt that'd come from Temper alone.

Either way, I've long since been saying the average RDM needs to be able to graduate past the Joyeuse. The D35 is showing its age for WS and DoT, but it's hard to give up on the raw TP. Making it possible to achieve 25% DA or more through gear and Temper starts opening the door for some of the more accessible swords now knocking on the D60s. Assuming the WS adjustments are decent, this cumulative effect can help eliminate some of the current mediocrity. Still, it's funny seeing some DDs think that RDM would suddenly steal their job with a 10-15% Temper, or that it breaks the class in general.

Rayik

09-08-2011, 07:51 PM

Oh yeah, and that COR, prime example of playing it to the limit, right? What is your point, though? Do you think RDM should even be able to melee VW mobs right now?

If you think this, if you actually think this, you are either trolling or haven't even bothered reading any of the previous 130+ pages of this thread. This argument has been put to rest more times than I can bother counting.

The answer is no.

Rayik

09-08-2011, 08:14 PM

trust me.. i hate "that guy" meleeing with his joyeuse and errant body even more than you do.. i've been fighting against "his" reputation for years. but we're not ALL that guy.. my rdm was never flagged up and subbing nin at the same time.. ever.... yet people act like i came to there house and punched there child the second i advocate anything other than a staff :\

This is something I don't think a lot of the anti-melee crowd seems to understand about the pro-melees. Those of us RDM's who are serious about melee, we get irritated and annoyed by those Joyeuse/Errant/full time AF melee RDM's worse than you guys do. They are half-assing it(less than half, actually) and only helping to further the negative stigma.

I've melee'd along with other random melee RDM's on magian trials, and seeing them melee in full teal/AF/etc hurts my soul. On these trials it's mostly trash mobs, so I don't give them a hard time. But really, I do get tired of seeing an Almace wielding RDM getting pummeled, while I run in to help them with my Blau Dolch/Evisc(sad, I know).

It's just like any other aspect of this game; if you don't bother to gear properly, or put an ounce of effort into it, then yes you're going to suck.

It's even worse when the mage-geared melee's actually whine about doing so little damage. I saw a RDM/whm in a Aby worm pt in full AF1 gear, single wielding a sword, and crying over not hitting very hard... That's the kind of stereotype we're working against.

Neisan_Quetz

09-08-2011, 08:22 PM

Tbh Joyeuse died at 90 for me when I realized the magian swords I was building for Rdm and Blu were better than it in overall damage. Now only my War uses it for red procing since I don't have a Ridill.

TybudX

09-08-2011, 08:52 PM

If you think this, if you actually think this, you are either trolling or haven't even bothered reading any of the previous 130+ pages of this thread. This argument has been put to rest more times than I can bother counting.

The answer is no.

Why:

Post a video showing all the downtime a RDM mule had, as if melee would have been it's best option?
Post a video with a RDM mule getting lots of downtime against a VW mob?
Post a video of a RDM mule getting lots of downtime while a COR mule is getting the same amount of ridiculous downtime?

You had to have thought you were doing something clever by posting that video, but all you did was make yourself look like a twit. I'm not trolling you at all, either, I really do think you are an idiot. Sorry for not spelling it out more clearly.

edit - I incorrectly attributed the video that was posted to Rayik when it was Hyrist that posted it. I'm not changing my original post because I'm not a back pedaling douche like that.

Rayik

09-08-2011, 09:11 PM

Why:

Post a video showing all the downtime a RDM mule had, as if melee would have been it's best option?
Post a video with a RDM mule getting lots of downtime against a VW mob?
Post a video of a RDM mule getting lots of downtime while a COR mule is getting the same amount of ridiculous downtime?

You had to have thought you were doing something clever by posting that video, but all you did was make yourself look like a twit. I'm not trolling you at all, either, I really do think you are an idiot. Sorry for not spelling it out more clearly.

What are you talking about? I never posted a video...

More proof you aren't even reading the posts in this thread. Take your trolling elsewhere.

TybudX

09-09-2011, 03:23 AM

What are you talking about? I never posted a video...

More proof you aren't even reading the posts in this thread. Take your trolling elsewhere.

I guess it was Hyrist, sorry. Point stands, my remarks in response were clearly sarcastic. Somebody trying to use that video as an example of how much downtime RDMs had during tougher NM or HNM type fights, but it's a stupid example at best due to all the things I previously mentioned.

edit - If that's not clear, how could you possibly think what I said in response to your response was serious?

And by the way, I have no problem with RDM meleeing when the condition is right. The way I figure it, if a COR can melee for TP, a RDM can melee for TP. If the COR isn't up front, the RDM shouldn't be up front. I don't see any reason why SE can't release gear with good combat stats that has RDM on them, and in fact they seem to be doing that a lot more lately. I just get irked seeing so many stupid and either useless or overpowered ideas getting tossed around when most of the pro-melee RDMs are blind to the things they are already getting. I don't think altering RDMs' core job mechanics are the right way to go about making it better at melee... COR is a prime example of a job that does just fine as a DD based mostly on gear selection. It helps that they have a strong buffer present at all times, but honestly RDM shouldn't function as a 'good melee DD' without strong buffs. It should just be functional. Go look at how COR melee stacks up when they don't have outside buffs, not just their own. They are terrible without Dia II/III, Haste, etc. Asking for RDM to be stronger than COR without any outside intervention is too much, in my opinion.

And I know what's coming next. Look at COR damage even when they are doing ranged TP vs. RDM damage when they nuke, blah blah blah. COR does two thing: Rolls and damage. They can cure, via support job, but so can WAR or MNK or any other job. RDM has native spells that it is best off using from a distance, supplemented with nukes or healing as necessary. The obvious division of labour is right there in front of you.

TybudX

09-09-2011, 03:49 AM

Daniel_Hatcher

09-09-2011, 03:51 AM

Back pedaling would be changing my post to pretend I said something I didn't. Slandering in spoken out loud in public; this could be seen as libelous. I made a mistake in that he didn't post the video, but my assessment was otherwise spot on.

You quoted the wrong person.... Thus the whole post was false and not spot on.

PS. Perhaps you should reread the rules you agreed to when you joined this forum, insulting people is not allowed, this isn't BG.

Rayik

09-09-2011, 03:52 AM

edit - I incorrectly attributed the video that was posted to Rayik when it was Hyrist that posted it. I'm not changing my original post because I'm not a back pedaling douche like that.

And you still left my quote there, even though the rest of your response is falsely aimed at it. Get out of here with that stuff, man. Hello Ignore button.

Hyrist

09-09-2011, 05:22 AM

Ty's been on my ignore list after I realized the bulk of the post history was either inflammatory or blocked afterward by an Admin.

Again, there's no point for hyperbole here.

The video was put to make a point that "RDM playing to it's best." is not only grosely subjective, but often downright unnecessary. Again, a RDM was to help and the job done by him could have been done as a mule, that's not an effective argument for a caster RDM. Trying to say that they never stop casting or that their job in endgame is horrendously busy.

This isn't ToAU anymore.

Anyways. Talking about the flaws in RDM's buffing game isn't for this thread, as the topic is about melee.

I'm still not too keen on SE stating that they won't tie in any of our debuffing aspect to our melee. On fodder mobs, debuffs get to really have a lasting effects save for Dia which helps for faster kills. Tieing it into our melee gives a bit more flexibility onto our debuffing role without having to worry about giving RDM's 'AoEs' That SE seems to be so scared of giving.

Still, seeing that they're going to be improving Temper to increase with Enhancing skill helps their idea on damage. There's just too little info to go on at this point though.

cidbahamut

09-09-2011, 05:36 AM

I dunno Hyrist. Mules don't seem like a good basis for making judgements about much of anything. I did Voidwatch last night and I was chain casting the whole night long, to the point where I mistook an empty mp pool for getting hit with stun or petrify a few times. Take that with a grain of salt, but that's how things played out.

Hyrist

09-09-2011, 07:03 AM

Ok, if I give that to you, just off the basis that I used a mule as an example there are two glaring flaws in that argument.

First, you give no context as to your fight. You could have been trying to run it understaffed or just been blowing your MP pool to blow your MP pool.

Second, Voidwatch is not the whole of Final Fantasy XI. It is a single NM Tree in a game FULL of NM trees among other events. You might be casting non stop for one (_)NM and be twittering your thumbs for another. That's just how the game works at it's most basic. This is why the context neglected in point 1 is much more important.

Note: Neither of these RDMs are mules, nor are they chaincasting the entire fight. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFtK-Pzv1f8)

So while using mules as an extreme example might not have been the best example, it does show how far a RDM can end up with their hands in their pockets, even in Voidwatch. That's not necessarily a bad thing if they're trying to stay ready for stun, or have a specific role they need to do. They don't NEED to be chain casting all the time.

So let's not state that you never pause in your casts all the time every time.

I'm just trying to keep this conversation down on the level with one another. It's great to be in situations that you're busy if all you want to do is cast. But it's not an overall standard for the game, especially currently.

If anything this also kinda points out something about Debuffs. It's difficult when there's multiple RDMs to keep themselves going around when there are multiples, except for the case of stun due to the timer (though as I stated elsewhere, it doesn't have to be the RDM who stuns.) Having many of them makes the duties lighter for one of them and when they are present it really shows. (Though, it's the only way to stack up fully powered Slows, Paralyzes, and Blinds due to the merit system.)

But in these particular situations, I don't think RDM has enough tools to convince them to go Melee either, though Savelle might disagree depending on the context. The idea of a "Durable person dealing damage." would be more appealing if the emphasis on skillchaining was higher.

cidbahamut

09-09-2011, 07:18 AM

Wah wah wah, I didn't fraps the fight for you and write a thesis on it. I'm sorry, ok?

Hyrist

09-09-2011, 07:27 AM

You really don't like reading long posts, do ya cid?

cidbahamut

09-09-2011, 07:34 AM

Being verbose when brevity would be better irritates me, yes. What was your point?

Hyrist

09-09-2011, 08:21 AM

Seems more like you don't like reading reasons backing up claims, I had more than one.

1. Taking you at your personal experiences isn't any better then citing mules.

2. Regardless of it being mules, chain-casting isn't a constant (cited a non-mule example) as sated previously.

3. Conversations in the thread need to tone down to contain less hyperbole.

4. (New topic: ) Multiple Red Mages during an event tends to noticeably cut down on time Spent casting for all RDM's participating.

5. There does not seem to be enough utility for RDM's to take the front lines on Voidwatch mobs.

Greatguardian

09-09-2011, 08:28 AM

Chain casting is not a constant.

.... But it should be. Suboptimal Red Mages will always exist. If you want to use the lowest common denominator as an example, go ahead. Do they have the time to melee? Sure. Should they be using that time to cast? Yes. Will they? Probably not.

I chain-cast at all times on Red Mage. If I'm not casting, I'm repositioning and then casting. Or I'm pulling then casting. Or I'm kiting then casting. Or I'm AFK, then casting. But mainly I'm just casting. If have time to idle, you have time to find more things to cast.

.... Oh god, Pchan was right.

SpankWustler

09-09-2011, 08:36 AM

Note: Neither of these RDMs are mules, nor are they chaincasting the entire fight. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFtK-Pzv1f8)

Why do people who record this kind of thing always have the same taste in music as a seventeen year-old, middle-class, white girl?

I've found casting load to be either boom or bust on any job that I've ever played in a support role. Even within one fight, things can change if stuff goes from "smooth" to "just past awful". I just consider the huge variance as something that comes along with the support role, and although this is entirely personal taste, I like the changes of pace that occur.

SpankWustler

09-09-2011, 08:43 AM

Or I'm AFK, then casting.

My equipment set for leaving my character in a safe spot while I wander into my kitchen to make an over-easy egg and arugula sandwich on toast is suspect, I think. What do you currently use?

Also, P-chan is never right! You can use an idle set while pulling or repositioning or kiting, right?! I must hold out hope in my heart that P-chan is never right, because holy ducks, he has an awful attitude about everything and everyone and everywhere forever.

Greatguardian

09-09-2011, 09:03 AM

cidbahamut

09-09-2011, 09:11 AM

4. (New topic: ) Multiple Red Mages during an event tends to noticeably cut down on time Spent casting for all RDM's participating.
I had at least two other Red Mages in the alliance by the end of the night and my casting load didn't really change, it just meant I wasn't solely responsible for keeping every enfeeble up.

Shit's situational, as usual.

SpankWustler

09-09-2011, 08:56 PM

Depends on what I'm fighting and how much I care. Generally I'll just sit in PDT, since it's highly unlikely I'd be fighting trash while on Red Mage anyways. If I'm fighting something magic-heavy, I'll put on MDT. If I somehow end up on Red Mage for trash mobs, I'll just idle in full Refresh/MP and burn off the excess in free low potency spells when I get back. I can make ffxiah sets if you want specific examples.

I still have Idle sets, I just use them more for running between places and AFK'ing than actual combat. And yeah, I'll idle during kiting and repositioning.

No need to go to that much trouble, but thanks for the offer. I was really just joking about ideal equipment to wear while AFK and the horrifying concept of P-chan being right.

I had at least two other Red Mages in the alliance by the end of the night and my casting load didn't really change, it just meant I wasn't solely responsible for keeping every enfeeble up.

You did, however, draw the shortest straw amongst the Red Mages and end up with one depressing merit in Blind II in case that was a proc. Oh, Voidwatch...

Hyrist

09-09-2011, 09:45 PM

Chain casting is not a constant.

.... But it should be.

I really disagree.

This isn't your typical MMO in which the best thing you can do is spam your cooldowns every time their up. Timing is, and possibly should be even more important than it is currently.

As I said before, being available to stun is a good reason to have idle time, and not to mention what idling in idle gear. Waiting for specific combinations to align on your cooldowns, skillchaining, bursting, procing. They all make being able to gauge your timing more worthwhile, to various degrees. That kinda got lost in the Zerg Mentality of ToAU but it at least seems to be making a comeback, and rightfully so as they were fun mechanics to be had (so long as they didn't horrendously limit job viability.)

I really do hope that SE makes coordinating with your team better as the game progresses, as it seems to become more and more of a lost art in MMOs.

cidbahamut

09-09-2011, 10:15 PM

You did, however, draw the shortest straw amongst the Red Mages and end up with one depressing merit in Blind II in case that was a proc. Oh, Voidwatch...
It's news to me. *shrug*

saevel

09-09-2011, 10:15 PM

What you tell me that my DPS isn't limited by a global cooldown and cycling all my timers!!! say it isn't soo, I was just getting to love my ret pally...

Neisan_Quetz

09-09-2011, 10:27 PM

Rayik

09-09-2011, 10:45 PM

I miss skillchains.

saevel

09-09-2011, 11:50 PM

Maybe if you were one only two stunners or less, otherwise if there was several stunners I've usually had an order set up, in which case you didn't have to worry too much until it was your turn/everyone else fell asleep. This was pre abyssea obv.

I haven't seen a SC that wasn't a self SC or accidental since... 2006?

Stun "orders" are horribly inefficient, they rely on the same mechanics that SC's rely on, people consistently paying attention and no miscommunication happening. It's also based on when you needed stuns at a consistent rate to slow a NM down, not shut down a TP moves or two. I've since found a ~MUCH~ better way to handle stuns. One primary stunner and one to two backup stunners is all you typically need. I'm as primary on RDM/DRK, I have a list of one or two TP moves that need stunned at all costs (Ballistic Kick, Gates of Hades, Archeon Flame, ect..). I stay locked onto the target with my finger above the stun macro, doing absolutely nothing else. When the monster use's the move I hit stun and stun it, as I've been anticipating the move the entire time I rarely miss it. Now I call out on vent my recast timer "stun down 30s" and name the backup person I need to take over. That person then drops everything their doing and concentrates on stunning to the exclusion of all else. During this time I'll cast buffs / replace stoneskin if needed, make sure Dia III / Slow II is on the NM and whatever until my stun timer is ready. Once it's up I'll announce stuns up and whomever was covering it then continues whatever they were doing. If they had to stun and my timer was still down, then the second backup's name is called and they drop everything to cover whatever time is left till my timer is ready. If during the fight I need a moment to recast self buffs / refresh II the healer or whatever, then I'll call out one of the backup stunners to cover me for a bit, they'll then drop whatever their doing and cover stuns while I do whatever it is i needed done.

It sounds complex but it's actually really simple, doesn't require a bunch of macros with
/ma stun <t>
/tell someone YOUR NEXT!!

And hoping everyone goes in order and no two people blow their stuns at the same time and thus screw up the order. People aren't caught putting up buffs, casting tier II AM or other random things when their needed to stun. It doesn't have to be me doing this, any RDM/DRK (/BLM) or BLM/RDM can do it, we don't like WHM's to do it because their too busy healing, same with SCH's and DRK's, well the less I say the better. Locking out one or two of a NM's moves can turn an extremely difficult fight into a ridiculously easy one.