On Red Mage melee... [Archive] - Page 5

Rayik

07-20-2011, 07:43 PM

Out of context, neither am I. Hold on *backreads*

Ah.

Loosing 6mp/tic (Earring, Body (2), Hat, boot/gloves (1)... and I'm guessing the augmented undies, god please tell me there's an alternative.) Is kind of irrelevant in the contexts you WOULD be meleeing, as your casting load is simply not that high.

And by casting load I mean main healing (in situations in which incoming damage is high or debuffs on the party members are plentiful), being the primary magic proc (Dynamis) or nuking your face off.

Not that our idle gear hasn't gotten dead sexy in the time I've been away. It has. Getting those pieces are kind of a priority for me right now. But there hasn't been much in the way of increased casting difficulty/load for us yet in any situation in which we'd front line, and we've already gotten an additional 3 mp/tic, buff duration enhancements, and a crap ton of other bonuses through gear that have actually offset our overall costs. Which will be even more MP efficient if/when we get Cure V.

There's a reason why it's called 'idle' gear. However. We're supposed to be wearing it when we're not doing anything. (and yes, duh, I realize we can piecemeal it to have some form of constant refresh while casting.) And honestly, especially for the back line. I want to be doing more.

Hyrist said it better than I could. Gear swap into Refresh gear while idling. Done.

While we're at it, I'll just say right now my melee gear set is not that great, it's still heavily a work in progress. Actually, it's pretty gimp. Given how sub-optimal melee RDM even is in this game at the moment, getting help to get the better stuff isn't easy. It's pretty much been nothing more than something to do on the side for fun.

My opinion, bottom line, if you want to stand in the back and just toss cures and buffs, just be a WHM. I'm a fan of hyrbids and multitasking, so juggling melee and spellcasting appeals to me. Standing in the back curing is the most boring thing to me.

Rayik

07-20-2011, 07:49 PM

So are you ever going to bring up valid arguments other than attacking my about things that arent even related to final fantasy xi. If that's the case, show us your gear sets for meleeing, show us the people you play with, show us how you play even, if you can't do that then you should probably stop arguing because I can ask the same thing of you, but if I did that you would make up some silly excuse as to why you couldn't.

Again, you spent more of your argument going off of baseless assumptions; repeatedly bringing up "stop playing with gimp players", as if you were somehow watching me play at all times(creepy), while I gave multiple examples of what I was talking about with in-game mechanics. Please, I am genuinely asking you, where did I bring up a silly excuse for anything? Because I refuse to parse lolmeleeRDM against a specialist DD?

6 man voidwatch vid on youtube: pld cor rdm whm smnx2. So sorry wut.

Was this supposed to be a link? This isn't even a sentence. Your posts hurt my brain.

Doombringer

07-20-2011, 07:51 PM

aye. my ls is supposed to be doing zelus tiaras.. tonight... hows that for a sad coincidence? even worse.. we were supposed to do it last week! but it never got off the ground. i coulda HAD one for this ><

but what are you gonna do? at least at 90 cap, any warning i had beforehand woulda just been used the same way.. i was chasing tiara ANYWAY yah know? this is my rdm "as is" even down to keeping melee food in the mog sack at all times.

also just to give some context and answer some questions/comments i've read here and on bg:

i only rarely hasted gokku. left that up to the whm usually. only casted it on others if asked, wich was infrequent.

i was keeping fresh2 on myself, the whm, AND the blu. the blu i considered non-critical. so he only ever got it during pulls/etc. minimal impact on my dmg from him.

i don't have dia3, at all. but for the sake of argument i dunno how much it would matter? would it have helped either of us more than the other?

i didn't "pick" brisk mask.. as stated above.. i'd wear a zelus in a heartbeat..... but i don't have it :\

as for my casting load, i started out trying to keep it as light as possible. (was told to just play it like a DD) but it quickly became apparent that the whm was... overwhelmed.... so for most of the parse i was doing sleep/silence/light cureing. still less than what would normally be asked of an rdm in a pickup group, however.

my almace is only 85, for whatever that's worth. the screenshot doesn't show so just figured i'd mention it

and i was eating food, hedgehog pie. dunno about the randoms. i believe gokku was eating marbled steak. nearly identical.

i think that's all i have to add.. of course gokku has all the real numbers anyway.. i play on xbox so i couldn't even parse myself if i wanted to.. so this was interesting for me, and i thank him for his time.

edit: realized i was calling gokku "guk".. like as in gukumatz i guess... dunno why. trauma maybe.... burned into my psyche........

cidbahamut

07-20-2011, 09:04 PM

Couldn't you grab a Walahra Turban to tide you over until your shell goes after Zelus Tiara? Might be worth it if you LS keeps flaking out on you.

hiko

07-20-2011, 10:16 PM

(necro quote)

I'm not going to waste my breath arguing 4 year old data.

oh you meant a rdm was able to do 80% of a sam BEFORE 2handed weapon update and before hasso? in this case i can aggre

Multiple parses have backed this ~80% claim and while the example parse posted was...slightly old...I have seen other ones since then that have continued to back the 80% claim.
can find multiple parse of a sam doing 80%(or lower) of another sam when the should do the same

Rayik

07-20-2011, 11:26 PM

Why would you use a MAB sword when you can use a magic defense down sword.

You can get some ridiculous numbers with that thing.

Seriously, Blms practically have a mini-orgasm when that effect is up.

Of course to actually make it worthwhile you have to pretty much single wield it and drop your enspell.

Going back to this for a moment, I do have a question about how added effect weapons take effect. This is not a question about optimal play, I'm curious how a game mechanic works:

Hypothetically, if you dual-wielded two different weapons with an added effect property, let's say main hand has Magic Defense Down, and off-hand has Magic Evasion Down, would the effects both be active if they proc'ed? Or would one effect overwrite the other? I understand en-spells don't work with them, but would they activate independently?

For that matter, could you wield two weapons with the same added effect, and stack the effect? I'm asking because I genuinely do not know.

Aurara

07-21-2011, 01:06 AM

Again, you spent more of your argument going off of baseless assumptions; repeatedly bringing up "stop playing with gimp players", as if you were somehow watching me play at all times(creepy), while I gave multiple examples of what I was talking about with in-game mechanics. Please, I am genuinely asking you, where did I bring up a silly excuse for anything? Because I refuse to parse lolmeleeRDM against a specialist DD?

If you spent more time arguing about the actual topic instead of pointing out my grammar mistakes and making personal attacks instead of attacking/arguing with what I'm actually saying you would realize you look really foolish.

Was this supposed to be a link? This isn't even a sentence. Your posts hurt my brain.

See, here you go again, attacking my grammar without an actual counter-argument. If you think my posts make your brain hurt, how about YOUR posts making everyone else's brain hurt. Here is the video since you obviously can't search youtube properly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ReopFQsirQ

Hyrist

07-21-2011, 01:48 AM

Doombringer, mind posting your WS set for us? (Enhancing set too if you don't mind.)

Also I'm noticing 15 Light Skillchains, but of relatively low damage, was that you closing on Goku or some other cause? (Victory Smite is listed to being able to close on itself with light, was wondering if this is the same with CDC's light element, meaning you could have opened for Goku. I tend to focus on opening skillchains for burst damage increase rather than push individual DPS numbers, our WS numbers are never that great.)

i don't have dia3, at all. but for the sake of argument i dunno how much it would matter? would it have helped either of us more than the other?

Probably would have benefited you more than than Goku, as defense reductions often benefit the lower attack jobs. I would have let the Bard double March and focused on a brief Dia 3 as each mob as pulled/agroed. You might have suffered from the casting time and not having capped gear haste especially, but the party would have preformed better.

In the respect of this context, the Blue Mage would have benefited the most from Dia III, as the defense calculations would have factored into his spell damage as well.

Gear wise I'd recommend getting Goliard when you can. ACP Body likely won't outweigh haste benefits in most cases due to the way scaling haste works. Having that haste capped is critical.

I'm assuming your offhand is Chimeric Fluret. Do you have plans on going for a DA Khanda soon? Seems to be the best offhand for Sword when dual wielding, especially to abuse the crap out of Almace's Aftermath. (A BLU concept, but should still be sound for RDM) Otherwise you probably would have been better of /WAR in this case (Fencer, DA, Warcry, Zerk). The Fluret, while a nice sword, was likely holding your Almace back this time around.

Hyrist

07-21-2011, 01:54 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ReopFQsirQ

Is there a timeframe when that video actually gets interesting? RDM does almost nothing and I don't see how people are ok with that sort of role for the RDM.

... I mean... he Saboteur'ed Poison II...

I really do hope SE fills that tall order into making us right buff/debuff specialists for endgame.

Aurara

07-21-2011, 02:00 AM

Not sure if you've fought Hahava, but a RDM would get torn to shreds within seconds meleeing, because Hahava can hit around him, for 500-1k per hit, which is why you use earthen armor/phalanx/Sentinel scherzo(which they did not have). And really, i know he wasn't doing much, and that keeping up poison2/bio3 isn't hard, but arguing that he should be meleeing is almost like arguing a brd should be meleeing.

P.S. he would have gotten rocked if he melee'd

Rayik

07-21-2011, 02:20 AM

If you spent more time arguing about the actual topic instead of pointing out my grammar mistakes and making personal attacks instead of attacking/arguing with what I'm actually saying you would realize you look really foolish.

See, here you go again, attacking my grammar without an actual counter-argument. If you think my posts make your brain hurt, how about YOUR posts making everyone else's brain hurt. Here is the video since you obviously can't search youtube properly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ReopFQsirQ

I can search YouTube just fine. If you're going to mention a video as some kind of proof of something, you post a link. You're the one making the argument, so it's your responsibility to make your "video proof" as accessible as possible. It'd be like a lawyer saying he has evidence to prove his case, but it's in some library where the jury has to look it up themselves. Not doing much for your case.

I've been making plenty of statements on topic, you choose to ignore them.

Anyway, back on topic.

After seeing the parse links Gokku posted(thank you, by the way), it's looking like finishing an Almace is the only readily available way I'm going to make RDM melee really viable in the current state of the game. I started the sword a while back, but got distracted by other things(working on a Ukkonvasara atm), so it's going to have to wait.

RDM melee is more of a side hobby anyway, so I'm not really in a hurry, which is one reason I never really upgraded from MAB swords I made last year; not a lot of point if no one is going to let you melee in a party anyway.

Hyrist

07-21-2011, 02:21 AM

Not sure if you've fought Hahava, but a RDM would get torn to shreds within seconds meleeing,

Not talking about Melee.

My standards are as thus, and please don't confuse them: Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses.

I'm woeing over the fact that we've got little else to do than Haste/Refresh botting due to resists rates on enfeebles, and not having enough buffs to actually be factored as a strong presence in a fight.

As I said, the Red Mage did almost nothing. A bard would have been MUCH better in that spot.

Doombringer

07-21-2011, 03:37 AM

Supersun

07-21-2011, 04:19 AM

Going back to this for a moment, I do have a question about how added effect weapons take effect. This is not a question about optimal play, I'm curious how a game mechanic works:

Hypothetically, if you dual-wielded two different weapons with an added effect property, let's say main hand has Magic Defense Down, and off-hand has Magic Evasion Down, would the effects both be active if they proc'ed? Or would one effect overwrite the other? I understand en-spells don't work with them, but would they activate independently?

For that matter, could you wield two weapons with the same added effect, and stack the effect? I'm asking because I genuinely do not know.

Each weapon would have a chance to activate their added effect and both status effects can be active at the same time (duration 30 secs).

Dual wielding the same effect would not let them stack on top of each other. A status effect from a sword cannot be reactivated until it has worn off.

Be careful about dual wielding though. Since dual wield recalculates they delay of the weapon it also recalculates its activation rate since the activation rate of the weapon is dependent on the delay. If you are trying to use these swords in a support role single wielding with /war is usually the way to go. (You can argue that single wielding with /dnc is better for the Defense Down sword though never use that with a Drg around).

I really wouldn't worry about most of the status effect swords though. The only two that are kinda...broken are defense down and magic defense down since those 2 stats affect the denominator in the formula they are involved in.

Magic Evasion down is especially redundant on Rdm considering Death Blossom gives the exact same status effect only slightly weaker (and will last longer). Both status effects shouldn't be able to stack since they are the same thing.

The one sword someday I might grab that I don't currently have and be tempted to play around with is the magic accuracy down sword. Since we just got addle and that has a magic defense down status effect that is part of addle the magic accuracy down sword should be able to stack with it. It might be interesting to see how nuking the crap out of a monsters magic accuracy plays with someone using barspells and if needed a resist set.

Hyrist

07-21-2011, 05:05 AM

ws set: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/219336

i don't have a set built at ffxiah for enhancing, but i have +51 skill from gear, then 16 from merits. the skill itself is actually still slightly under cap.

as for the light skillchains, i think most of those were the blu self sc'ing. me and gokku certainly didn't coordinate on any of them so any we had together were completely by accident, so i wouldn't know who opened or closed.

also i've been lead to believe, that not only is the DA khanda over-rated due to it's massive delay, but that chimeric fleuret is actually one of the best offhanders to pair with an almace. you still get 4% da, and you save something like 40 delay:

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/17622/melee-gear/5#1356580

What I would give to have that guy's weapon availability. Sometimes it sucks having such limited playtime.

Anyways behaviorally I focus less on my personal damage and more on the party damage. Which is why my eyes went right to skillchain numbers. I understand that this is a test to measure what RDM's DPS is like, but if anything it emphasizes my long standing stance that as a Red Mage, our TP is best spent being used to enhance other player's damage spikes. It's just another support function we offer.

As far as Chimeric Fluret testing. I'll have to go with his numbers, I can't challenge it without the gear to do it myself. I'll prioritize getting the Fluret though.

This leaves the question, however. Of whether or not your damage would have been superior simply single weilding. With Fencer only being available to Red Mage via /War even though the melee camp has been clamoring for it natively, paired off with Sanguine Blade being EX, it makes me wonder whether or not SE's trying to push Melee practitioners in that direction.

Neisan_Quetz

07-21-2011, 08:00 AM

If you had Zelus ACP DW/Acc body would actually be better than zelus, especially since you'd benefit from the accuracy if for no other reason than canceling calm trouser's -acc.

Same ffxiah link I have my thoughts on offhand swords at the end.

SE can try to push anyone in that direction all they want no one is going to go for it until Fencer's bonuses equal or outweigh dualwield, which they don't.

Doombringer

07-21-2011, 08:13 AM

IF single wield could end up better, it wouldn't be because of fencer. there MIGHT be something to it in that the double dmg can only proc on the mainhand, and single wielding... it's ALL mainhand..

but 30% delay reduction, and the extra hit on cdc, is a pretty big deal.

i suppose i'd be willing to try it, but again, i can't parse myself. and i'm not really looking to get right back to it anytime soon anyway.

that took all night <.<

i'd be curious to hit it again once i've rounded out my gear a bit, but this single wield fencer thing just doesn't excite me.

saevel

07-25-2011, 07:46 PM

Congrats Doom, sorry for my late reply just had a moment to read over the parse data. 8/8 Enhancing, a man after my own heart.

IDK about Chim off hand anymore, back when it was +7 enspell on both hands it was our best off hand weapon, but now I'd have to recheck a bunch of stuff. Also depends on camp, if the target was piercing weak then yeah Chim wins, otherwise IDK.

For neck have you looked into the Rancor neck piece? Its +5 Crit +6 acc +10% damage taken, as RDM's we can afford to take more damage due to our inherit survivability. Also CDC numbers looked low, what was the monsters level you were fighting? RDM does great on VT stuff but really starts to suffer on IT due to LCF kicking our attack problem in the teeth. And yes double march always, hit really fast lol. You set mirrors mine in every aspect except I haven't yet finished Sobek and I use the Rancor neck piece. For the time being I'm using Twilight dagger main hand for Evis spam.

For everyone else, the "80%" reference was back at 75. Now with the buffs that all the other jobs got, and with their new gear selection, and the fact that RDM's received nearly nothing melee wise, combined puts a significant gap between the two. The funny part is that other then CDC, the absolute "best" RDM "melee" gear isn't hard to get, its mostly AH stuff. There literally is ~NO~ super gear to get, we don't have our "ebody / ridill" equivalents. We don't want to do the same damage as the above MNK, but we'd like our ceiling to be significantly higher.

Of course I now have to ask a question, did you parse the cure data? How much of total party HP did you cure directly? And then how much additional healing did you provide via MP recovery? And further how much more damage did you provide via the BLU's refresh? Was you cure bombing the melee, and I'm assuming the MNK was /WAR and the WAR full time hasso, and did that cure bombing allow them to take a more offensive approach?

That is what a RDM brings to the table, it not only contributes it's own damage but allows others to deal more damage then they normally would of been able to. After all in this game, melee's don't punch brick walls with infinite HP for hours on end. In FFXI those walls punch back.

Gokku

07-25-2011, 07:59 PM

Of course I now have to ask a question, did you parse the cure data? How much of total party HP did you cure directly? And then how much additional healing did you provide via MP recovery? And further how much more damage did you provide via the BLU's refresh? Was you cure bombing the melee, and I'm assuming the MNK was /WAR and the WAR full time hasso, and did that cure bombing allow them to take a more offensive approach?

That is what a RDM brings to the table, it not only contributes it's own damage but allows others to deal more damage then they normally would of been able to. After all in this game, melee's don't punch brick walls with infinite HP for hours on end. In FFXI those walls punch back.
cure data is as follows if you want a SS ill post it but
Total Damage taken 101441
Gokku 70819
Doombringer 4966
*others omited

Total healing done
Ayca 68303
Brotherblood 12157
Doombringer 2417
Gokku 3629 *chakra*

so there you have it i healed myself for more then all the heals the rdm had to cast, infact the blu spent more time healing then the rdm *6 times as much*.
as for time spent debuffing
Doombringer
Debuff #Successful Total Duration Avg Duration
Silence 17 0:09:25 0:33
Sleep 1 0:00:07 0:07
Sleep II 8 0:07:02 0:53

Gokku
Debuff #Successful Total Duration Avg Duration
Provoke 55 0:45:05 0:49

saevel

07-25-2011, 08:07 PM

What the heck were you fighting? Before I mostly looked over the RDM and urself's parse data, but now looking at the BLU, wtf where they doing? Was someone leveling BLU in that party because their numbers are embarrassingly bad.

Also Gokku do you play on PC?

saevel

07-25-2011, 08:16 PM

Actually digging deeper ... doom whats your enspell macro look like? Are you macroing in pieces? Which spell are you using and what was your reasoning behind it?

Even on my bad days I put out more enspell damage then that, significantly more. I really need to know what was the target monster now.

Neisan_Quetz

07-25-2011, 08:55 PM

It was VT demons in Neo Dynamis, so enspell damage was cut.

The BLU and WAR are distractions representing bad pickup DDs.

Doombringer

07-26-2011, 02:00 AM

enspell macro is af legs relic hands emp+2 boots and emp cape for +51 skill, and af+1 hat for fast cast because there's a leftover line in the macro and why not cast faster?

was using enspell one, tried a couple different spells but demons aren't really weak to anything. just a rough mob to enspell on. i think i finally just settled on whatever enspell had been typed into my macro beforehand, to keep the DA on chimeric fleuret going. (i only have 1 enspell macro, i just edit it whenever i need to change mobs.)

rancor collar is on my radar, but it's very expensive on my server, and all my money is being thrown into the pit that is apademak pops for now. then after that i might start throwing gil at augmenting a good w.body. saw a screenshot of a guy that got haste on one, might cap my set out by that route. (W.body has always been my favorite look for rdm. it's the perfect armor for what i always pictured rdm to be. i'd <3 an excuse to actually bother wearing it)

i dunno....... may not be the best thing to make a priority... but it's just so cool lookin' >.>

saevel

07-26-2011, 05:25 AM

Ahh Kindreds, that explains much. Usually demons are weak to fire, but Kindred's are actually weak to Light, seeing as we don't have enlight then all our enspells pretty much suck. That and they usually have -MDT and annoying defense / VIT, which explains your low CDC numbers. You picked one of the worst targets for RDM and one of the worst melee's to compare yourself to, but sometimes them the shakes.

Also having another PT member parse you is gonna screw up enspell damage. For some reasons SE sends additional effect damage as a separate entry then the person who caused it. K-Parse just tags the add.damage onto the previous melee hit, which usually works fine if your the one parsing, but if someone else is then the order can get out of whack.

RDM Hits Mob, Mob takes 60 damage
Mnk Hits Mob, Mob takes 100 damage
Additional Effect, Mob takes 24 damage

The Add damage belongs to the RDM but is attributed to the MNK. I used to have dynamis parses that had my endamage spread out amongst 40+ people. One person's parse had me pretty low on the numbers, but then I posted mine that shows me in the upper corner. They screamed foul until I pointed out how their WAR was dealing 20+ lightening damage per hit, something that wasn't possible. This was vs quadavs which have a clear elemental weakness.

You should try this again in a city zone or other target that doesn't have high defense / VIT and magic resist. RDM does pretty well on weaker stuff, but we just lack the attack for hard sh!t.

saevel

07-26-2011, 07:10 AM

My current Enspell puts on,

head "Warlock's chapeau +1";
body "Glamor jupon";
neck "Enhancing torque";
legs "Portent pants";
hands "Duelist's gloves";
ear1 "Augmenting earring";
ear2 "Loquacious earring";
feet "Estoqueur's houseaux +2";
back "Estoqueur's cape";
waist "Siegel sash";

For
+64 Enh Skill and 30% duration bonus.

Currently want the Augurs Robe for another 9 enhancing magic which will bring me to 430.

Gokku

07-26-2011, 10:02 AM

saevel

07-26-2011, 01:01 PM

read the logs
1. The dmg of every enspell went to him.
2. Almost all of the new VT mobs have high vit/def
3. Every job does fine on weaker mobs this was about accurate difficulty mobs not mowing down easy preys
4. yes i play on pc
5. my gear isnt perfect * to my standards yet* either , im still missing some parts of my VS i.e rancor collar
6. i was pulling most of the fights so i had to engage last.

And now it comes out does it, figured the ulterior motives behind this would surface if I asked enough questions. Otherwise why have two "random pickup DD" in a controlled parse on kindred mobs in a dynamis event.

1. The dmg of every enspell went to him.

Not possible if the parser isn't the RDM. Not even K-parser can fix this, it's SE sending add damage as separate entity from what caused the damage.

2. Almost all of the new VT mobs have high vit/def
Not true, they have Vit / Def that scale with their template. JP's figured this out years ago. Kindred's template have VIT / DEF higher then the standard for their job types.

3. Every job does fine on weaker mobs this was about accurate difficulty mobs not mowing down easy preys

Wasn't talking about EP, or DC, or T, or VT, or even IT, just the relative Def / Vit / Evade of the monster in question. Nice attempt at straw man, now go back to BG where you started this. Kindred not only have higher Def / Vit, they also have -MDT. They are the perfect example of a monster that RDM's will have the most difficulty with, infact anyone not a 2H or a MNK will have difficulty with them. I seem to remember TS discussions for Dyna Xarc at level 75, it's only gotten worse at lv 90.

4. yes i play on pc

This was because I had questions about his macro's and WS swaps. He noted on playing on console, meaning no extended macro's and other nice toys. Something I'm positive you, as a BG poster, would of had access to. I'll let that speak for itself.

The rest is just more strawman BS.

I was fairly positive you were going to use this in other posts as a "this is how bad RDM melee is" type argument. Even had to throw in the "pimped our RDM is worse then a random AH WAR" angle.

Considering the things stacked against him and that it was a setup he did pretty well.

Neisan_Quetz

07-26-2011, 01:08 PM

There is no strawman, Rdm melee fails against stronger mobs, -MDT on demons or not. You cannot refute this, only acknowledge it and either accept it or demand it be changed. Or perhaps you're going to claim all Rdm melee is good against is weak VT and birds, which goes right back to fails against stronger mobs?

Gokku

07-26-2011, 01:12 PM

ok lets play it your way add all magical dmg listed in the parse to his dmg * this is assuming all magic added dmg is his and his alone thats another 856 dmg and suddenly it makes up for the 16000 dmg gap. Next lets assume i was giving him a acc song so you know he wouldn't hit as fast *we all know everyone has capped acc even when blinded". then lets make false statements about an ah war? cuz we can buy ares body off the ah now a days. then assume he cant figure out how to hit 2 buttons to put on tp / ws gear. oh and dont forget that bit about you having no clue and ignoring the parse data to just make shit up!.

if it makes you feel better give me your email ill send you the parse and you can go through it line by line of chat

Rearden

07-26-2011, 01:20 PM

Guys, the JP's figured it out years ago.

Rearden

07-26-2011, 01:23 PM

I also liked the part about "CDC numbers looked low".

Something to note: GL hitting a constant 3k~anything outside of Abyssea. It's called FFXI, and they are mutually exclusive.

Gokku

07-26-2011, 01:27 PM

i love how an all pug group is a set up, i mean if i had my ls there with brd whm wildfire cor ukon war vere monk and a masa sam that would have totally been a fair show. its not like he didn't destroy 2 abyssea level players or anything.

Seriha

07-26-2011, 02:05 PM

Back during oldschool Dynamis, I managed to weasel in in a melee capacity at 75. Even eating pizza, I can't say I was at all happy with my performance and can only imagine that getting worse with the demons increasing in level with little about RDM itself changing. Any idea how often people were blinded? What were the particular job families being fought? Never fought the VT ones there since I've been done with Xarc AF, but dunno if Condemnation and its stun are a factor, too.

Overall, I know part of this "experience" was to debunk the old 80% value, but I also think it was made under the assertion people were more equal. PUG or not, BLU spells outside of Abyssea are gonna drop hard on VT or greater (Demon or not) given a lack of Blue Attack options in gear, songs, or food. No idea what his actual skill rating was at for determining damage values, either. Just comparing to MNK, them having enmity gives a distinct advantage to most other jobs when it comes to counters. Not gonna say it's not fair, but it doesn't help anyone not MNK, a Retal WAR, or someone riding Seigan/TE. Just one of those moments that kinda emphasizes RDM's lack of native melee traits jumping out there to bite 'em in the butt. Regardless, it's a nod toward the job's martial prowess needing some help, particularly without CDC involved.

Gokku

07-26-2011, 02:52 PM

people have got to realize outside of abyssea your dmg will drop dramatically. i was blinded about 80-90% of the time so going to assume the same for others. also this wasn't planned out in advanced he was the only one in the thread who mentioned being willing to parse and i saw him online. mob list is a follows
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/923f373d4fe5c53156d9b02f7d8f5891.png
as you can see the majority of mobs we fought were low evasion low def mage mobs no plds or thfs etc. The counter argument is the same as a GOOD war with retaliation, and fuck condemnation i spent damn near 1/2 of every fight stunned from it. demons were just as much of a hindrance to the rdm as it was to me being able to fight without being stun'd.

saevel

07-26-2011, 07:46 PM

ALL Kindred are high defense / VIT mobs with natural MDT. And I was referring to the old Mystery Tour monster database, they had been able to determine the monsters template and figure out it's def / evasion / AGI / VIT / INT. Monsters of the same template scaled the same way. Its no longer online now and I wonder what happened to all of it's data.

The whole point of that is that a Kindred monster at level 90 will have higher defense / VIT then a Goblin, Dhamel, Pugil, or Bird at level 90. The only monsters that I can remember with higher DEF / VIT were crabs and Urganites. The "job" stats are applied after the template, so a Kindred WHM would most likely have more defense then a Goblin WAR of the same level. Colibri for example where template bird, job RDM with access to all White / Black magic and songs flagged and possessing a natural -12.5 MDT. So yes that particular target was worse case scenario, as had you been fighting Level 95 tree's, goblins, Orcs, Yags or Pugils then the attack penalty would of been less.

And BTW I never once mentioned Abyssea, you are the ones who brought that up as a red herring. His average on CDC was 600, that is very low for that kind of WS. At 75 in Xarc vs Kindreds I was able to get 400~600 (depending on buffs and food) with Death Blossom, and this is without using Dia III. He should of been hitting 800 at least, but due to his ratio being under 1.0 it got severely whacked.

But yes I picked up early that this was just an attempt by certain BG elements to deride RDM's as "mage onry" and provide an attempt to say "RDM can't even do half the damage of a real DD" and "an AH gimp melee is still better then a RDM". It was a setup pure and simple. They weren't even in there to actually accomplish anything, not coins collection, not NM pops, not AF acquisition and not XP. The whole purpose was to "prove RDM wrong". The proof was in the simple statement that the parse was stopped when someone died, of all the melee capable jobs RDM has the highest survivability and the game doesn't stop if a melee gets themselves killed. That's disregarding one of RDM's biggest strengths, it's sheer survivability. Avoiding death is part of a playing a job and part of being a DD.

Looking over your accuracy data, the blind effect did absolute jack sh!t to your accuracy. The RDM, who most likely had the lowest accuracy of the group, is eating attack food and not Pizza and still hitting 90%.

But please don't let me stop your celebration, after all it's not like no one else has attempted this technique before to "win the RDM war".

Neisan_Quetz

07-26-2011, 08:10 PM

ALL Kindred are high defense / VIT mobs with natural MDT. And I was referring to the old Mystery Tour monster database, they had been able to determine the monsters template and figure out it's def / evasion / AGI / VIT / INT. Monsters of the same template scaled the same way. Its no longer online now and I wonder what happened to all of it's data.

The whole point of that is that a Kindred monster at level 90 will have higher defense / VIT then a Goblin, Dhamel, Pugil, or Bird at level 90. The only monsters that I can remember with higher DEF / VIT were crabs and Urganites. The "job" stats are applied after the template, so a Kindred WHM would most likely have more defense then a Goblin WAR of the same level. Colibri for example where template bird, job RDM with access to all White / Black magic and songs flagged and possessing a natural -12.5 MDT. So yes that particular target was worse case scenario, as had you been fighting Level 95 tree's, goblins, Orcs, Yags or Pugils then the attack penalty would of been less.

So you basically state my question was correct.

And BTW I never once mentioned Abyssea, you are the ones who brought that up as a red herring. His average on CDC was 600, that is very low for that kind of WS. At 75 in Xarc vs Kindreds I was able to get 400~600 (depending on buffs and food) with Death Blossom, and this is without using Dia III. He should of been hitting 800 at least, but due to his ratio being under 1.0 it got severely whacked.

Goes back to point 1.

But yes I picked up early that this was just an attempt by certain BG elements to deride RDM's as "mage onry" and provide an attempt to say "RDM can't even do half the damage of a real DD" and "an AH gimp melee is still better then a RDM". It was a setup pure and simple. They weren't even in there to actually accomplish anything, not coins collection, not NM pops, not AF acquisition and not XP. The whole purpose was to "prove RDM wrong". The proof was in the simple statement that the parse was stopped when someone died, of all the melee capable jobs RDM has the highest survivability and the game doesn't stop if a melee gets themselves killed. That's disregarding one of RDM's biggest strengths, it's sheer survivability. Avoiding death is part of a playing a job and part of being a DD.

This has nothing to do with Rdm being a good melee because it isn't.

But please don't let me stop your celebration, after all it's not like no one else has attempted this technique before to "win the RDM war".

ITT: Parsing someone's performance in a given situation is 'winning' the "war".

What's even funnier is your claims of "BG elements" trying to deride Rdm melee when Byrth simply noted this was expected given the other 2 DDs and Radec even defended Doom's performance.

Gokku

07-27-2011, 12:05 AM

But yes I picked up early that this was just an attempt by certain BG elements to deride RDM's as "mage onry" and provide an attempt to say "RDM can't even do half the damage of a real DD"

Looking over your accuracy data, the blind effect did absolute jack sh!t to your accuracy. The RDM, who most likely had the lowest accuracy of the group, is eating attack food and not Pizza and still hitting 90%.

1. i A. have almost as many posts here as i do on bg B. it was to show that a rdm couldnt do 80% of the damage of a GOOD dd, and it ended up showing that a red mage can completely destroy your avg player i dont swap gears player.

2. the red mages accuracy is a huge point , thats his accuracy with madrigal on 99% of the time we got attack song one time. so his acc would drop a decent chunk without it if we had had dual haste instead were as my accuracy while blinded with str food wouldn't have dropped much at all.

Greatguardian

07-27-2011, 12:10 AM

Even I was impressed with Doom's performance, but here's the thing. I hear a lot more about RDM Melee on forums than I do in-game. This is not surprising, because there is a significantly larger potential population to draw from on forums. With that said, one can only assume that there are at least a couple well-geared RDMelees around on forums when so many people seem to be into it.

Yet I rarely see people actually talk about their personal RDMelee set, or come out to see how it stands up against another melee without backpedaling and giving excuses. Doom impressed me not only by having a pretty nice set, but also by stepping the frap up and parsing with someone.

I have no doubt that there are countless more available high-tier DDs to parse with on any server if another RDM thinks this parse was fouled and wants to do their own on something else. Really, my only condition for accepting the parse (which I'm sure is mirrored by many others here) is that we can make sure that the competing DD knows what the heck they're doing. It's fairly obvious, in my mind, that any SAM that is only capable of doing 125% the damage of a RDM on Colibri at 75 is doinitwrong. Edit: And the fact that the original claim cited the SAM using a Hagun on birds pretty much speaks to them being completely inept.

Seriha

07-27-2011, 12:45 AM

Even limiting banter to your own server, you're only privy to things you can immediately see in say, tells, shouts, party, and linkshell chat. Not to pull a Boondocks here, but the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. You just plain don't know or have access to what everyone is saying, in English, German, French, Japanese, Italian, or whatever. The simple longevity and accessibility of forum posts, by default, allows more people to get involved. However, even if FFXI is sitting at 200k users, I don't exactly see so many frickin' names that indicates every one of them is here, on Alla, BG, or wherever. Probably not even close to 75k if you wanted to guess that the English-speaking population we'd be familiar with.

Overall, even when it comes to those you don't see chatting about it, they're not approaching it from the mindset of hoping to beat anyone and everyone. They're interested in personal improvements, sure, and I've nudged people toward certain gear choices as I've chanced upon random talk in PUGs, but I've never fed nor promoted the delusion that they should be beating XYZ job. Not really sure if you're expecting War and Peace when someone does bring it up, though, as it basically boils down to "Wear this, this, and this" with a side of how to get whatever or maybe finer details on a given NM.

It happens, though, and I know Duelle has at least had some peeks at the JP side of things to see they've had similar gripes as us.

Greatguardian

07-27-2011, 12:53 AM

Seriha

07-27-2011, 01:17 AM

Which is fine. I know myself and others take offense when that lack of interest should be considered the norm, though, and to want otherwise makes us... less desirable elements, in more polite terms. Was the same at 75, same at 90, and will no doubt continue to be so unless SE gets off their duff.

Doombringer

07-27-2011, 02:26 AM

My point was simply that I have not, in either population, seen hardly anyone who claims that RDM melee is viable in its current state aside from Doom stand up and actually present himself to parse.

actually, even I think it needs buffing. i think I did OK (JUST "ok")... but i have an almace. if i'd gone out there with evisceration or death blossom i probably would have embarrassed myself. granted gokku also has an emp, but if he didn't, he'd still have asuran fists, with whatever the next best H2H weapon is.

i DON'T think rdm melee is ok, i just did this because i was curious as to how not ok it was. and i didn't like the idea of certain people representing "me"... i wasn't out to prove anything.

as for them trying to stack the deck against me to point at the lolmeleerdm and laugh... so? everything was disclosed.

sure i didn't know i'd be fighting kindred, but whats it matter? it was openly disclosed that we were fighting kindred. so people can take that into consideration. if you don't think the magic def is fair, double my enspell number (or whatever you think is fair) for a ballpark.

i didn't know i'd be parsing against a mnk, and sure counter ups his dmg.. but we can see that in the parse. if you don't feel that counter is fair you can look at that and remove that amount from his total for a ballpark.

as for the enspell vs who'se running the parse, i don't see anybody else dealing significant "additional effect" damage. so it's at LEAST close. i'm not looking to play lawyerball :\

i WILL say this though, gokus acc isn't capped either, (93.87%, it's close but it's not capped, so it proves madrigal had to be helping him.) so to say that dropping the madrigal would hurt me but NOT him is a little unfair. just sayin'

geekgirl101

07-27-2011, 03:07 AM

rdm melee damage is pretty weak to begin with. It would be nice if we had a damage increase, say a combat ability that weakened our magic but increased our combat stats. I know we got composure but it aint enough for our survivability by melee alone and I still have to stick in nukes to do some considerable damage. Even with rotating nukes and smacking a mob with enspell 2 it takes me 8x longer to kill things that a proper melee class can do. I'd like to see that get changed.

Supersun

07-27-2011, 04:05 AM

1. I have almost as many posts here as i do on bg B. it was to show that a rdm couldnt do 80% of the damage of a GOOD dd

I don't think anyone was arguing that at lvl 90 outside of abyssea.

Duelle

07-27-2011, 06:08 AM

My point was simply that I have not, in either population, seen hardly anyone who claims that RDM melee is viable in its current state aside from Doom stand up and actually present himself to parse. Personally I'd be willing to parse against anyone on Cerberus as a non-RDM in a similar situation, if there was a melee Rdm there who wanted to go.What would be the point outside of stroking others' e-peens and simply reinforcing the melee camp's desire to have front line play buffed? Or are we trying to determine by how much melee should be buffed/altered?

With that said, one can only assume that there are at least a couple well-geared RDMelees around on forums when so many people seem to be into it.

Yet I rarely see people actually talk about their personal RDMelee set, or come out to see how it stands up against another melee without backpedaling and giving excuses.Translation: You're trying to lure people in so you can play the "lol ur bad" card.

It happens, though, and I know Duelle has at least had some peeks at the JP side of things to see they've had similar gripes as us.This is true. The debates aren't as heated as they tend to get here, though. Mostly "RDM melee is weak. Please don't forget about our swordsman part. <insert suggestions ranging from buffed enspells to more WS access>". Some mention Rainemard. Nothing too complicated, and at least I haven't seen anyone trying to troll the JP threads with stuff like lolmelee. Granted, the JP also made this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhQg7PC3CDY), so I'm sure there're some naysayers that haven't shown themselves yet.

Greatguardian

07-27-2011, 09:37 AM

The point is simply that there still seem to be posters who feel that RDM melee, in its current and past incarnations, is not completely useless and overly weak. These people believe that they are able to contribute a meaningful amount to the group right now, and that their damage increase more than makes up for the loss of casting functionality.

This is not true and I'd be more than happy to prove my case in practice. Even Doom's parse assumed that he did almost zero casting at all. Increasing the casting burden in order to actually play RDM as a hybrid class and not purely as a DD will only lower their effectiveness even further.

If certain people have issues with Demons, I will simply find another VT monster family to poke at (or whoever else wants to parse next, as I do not see many Cerberusians here). Any suggestions on Pierce/Blunt/Slash-Neutral mobs that can be found in abundance at VT to 90 level?

Supersun

07-27-2011, 10:40 AM

I think the new beetles and bats in garliage citadel ate VT to a lvl 90.

Greatguardian

07-27-2011, 11:08 AM

Eh. I'd really rather use Weapon-Neutral mobs. I appreciate parsing on bats about as much as Rdms appreciate parsing on Magic Pots. If it's possible to only snag beetles without getting bats on us, that would work.

Supersun

07-27-2011, 01:06 PM

Certainly it would be better if we could find a camp with mostly neutral mobs, but at the same time it's more important to not pick something with some stupid quirky TP attack that will offset what the DoT between the 2 jobs are.

Basically, any monster that is notorious for exping on are generally the best candidates for testing DoT as they aren't overly difficult and are easy to survive against. Unfortunately 90% of those mobs are also piercing weak.

I mean common exp monsters off the top of my head exuding crabs for obvious reasons are Crawlers, Bats, Worms, Birds, Beetles, ect...

There are certainly enough beetles to never run out since they spawn on a 5 min timer now, but good luck dodging the bats and only pulling beetles. I still don't think you are going to find a better spot even if it involves the occasional bat since every other spot I can think of is even worse with their piercing weaknesses or use stupid TP attacks. Worse comes to worse you can just exclude all the bat data (pretty sure you can do this can't you?).

Greatguardian

07-27-2011, 02:04 PM

Supersun

07-27-2011, 04:30 PM

Well you could certainly show the data for the beetles, bats, and both combined. I mean piercing IS a pretty sizable advantage over slashing for the mobs with a piercing weakness and sometimes you still end up fighting a piercing weak monster. I mean, more data is certainly better then less.

(Demons are a pretty anti-rdm mob though. It's almost as bad as if Rdms got to choose the monster and picked elementals. A portion of your damage is just automatically cut. Not going to say that it's going to vary THAT much even on a better target, but once again, more data is always better the less data.)

Eeek

07-27-2011, 09:57 PM

That would probably work (just filtering bats). I just don't want to go through the trouble of running a parse only to have someone come up later and freak out about the testing conditions (oh noes teh demons). It would be a waste of time. I mean, I'm sure someone would always find something to freak out about as far as conditions are concerned. Regardless, now all I need is a Cerberus RDM willing to set up a time/date. I can talk some friends into providing all the support we need, I'm sure.

Sadly, this won't happen even in the best of circumstances, I'm afraid. Doom is the only melee RDM on these forums with the courage to step up and perform as well as he can (hint: that's why he gained a lot of respect), and pretty much everyone else willingly blinds themselves to facts and reality. Or relentlessly backpedals when faced with reality.

To everyone: Demons are essentially an anti-Everyone mob.

Swords

07-28-2011, 12:27 AM

There are certainly enough beetles to never run out since they spawn on a 5 min timer now, but good luck dodging the bats and only pulling beetles. I still don't think you are going to find a better spot even if it involves the occasional bat since every other spot I can think of is even worse with their piercing weaknesses or use stupid TP attacks. Worse comes to worse you can just exclude all the bat data (pretty sure you can do this can't you?).

If your talking about the new bats and beetles in garliage citidel's basement they're non-agressive, so they shouldnt be a problem. You do need to watch out for the new bombs though they're agressive and don't seem to use any tp moves besides self-destruct.

Rayik

07-28-2011, 12:44 AM

My point was simply that I have not, in either population, seen hardly anyone who claims that RDM melee is viable in its current state aside from Doom stand up and actually present himself to parse. Personally I'd be willing to parse against anyone on Cerberus as a non-RDM in a similar situation, if there was a melee Rdm there who wanted to go.

I have a lot more sympathy for people who know that Rdm melee is borderline useless on a relative scale (as in, anyone can beat up some crappy gimps, but comparing good player to good player, etc), and simply want it to be better. I simply don't see the point, personally, as I have no vested interest in the "concept" of magical swordsman.

I play on a console, so I wouldn't be able to do a parse unless someone on PC did it for me. I'm stating plainly(as I have before) my gear is a work in progress, and at the moment pretty gimp. I'm working on improving it, but when it comes down to it, it's much more difficult to get help for things that are only seen as by the public as "lol" or just something to play on the side. I've got 5 other jobs to gear for, and my resources are limited. When I have a respectable gear set, I'd be happy to do a parse with someone, if just for data to add to the discussion. If someone wants to try and put my RDM against a DD just to outdamage me and make me look stupid, no thank you. RDM's lack of DD capability is an issue, hence the multitude of threads on all the FF forums. If RDM melee was awesome as-is, this discussion wouldn't even be taking place.

I'm currently working on boosting up my haste and getting better swords. Atheling Mantle and Calmecac Trousers make a noticeable difference, though. I'm getting there, just not at a point to really compete yet. I've got nothing to hide, I'm just openly stating my set up is gimp at the moment. A parse would be worthless.

When I feel confident in my setup, I'll gladly join a parse.

Supersun

07-28-2011, 03:13 AM

Sadly, this won't happen even in the best of circumstances, I'm afraid. Doom is the only melee RDM on these forums with the courage to step up and perform as well as he can (hint: that's why he gained a lot of respect), and pretty much everyone else willingly blinds themselves to facts and reality. Or relentlessly backpedals when faced with reality.

To everyone: Demons are essentially an anti-Everyone mob.

My gear isn't quite up to par yet for a lvl 90 fight, but I've already offered to do a lvl 75 synched fight to see whether that 80% number was accurate or not. My gear isn't super perfect, but it's solid, well the TP set is at least.

I "think" I still have most of my Eviceration pieces. Though I never would of though I would of had to use that WS again.

Duelle

07-28-2011, 09:08 AM

The point is simply that there still seem to be posters who feel that RDM melee, in its current and past incarnations, is not completely useless and overly weak.Whether RDM melee is currently useless and weak was never in question. As I've said before, the mechanics aren't in place to allow for meaningful front-line performance. This isn't proving anything new or discovering something none of us knew before.
Even Doom's parse assumed that he did almost zero casting at all. Increasing the casting burden in order to actually play RDM as a hybrid class and not purely as a DD will only lower their effectiveness even further.This is obvious as well.

Doom is the only melee RDM on these forums with the courage to step up and perform as well as he can (hint: that's why he gained a lot of respect), and pretty much everyone else willingly blinds themselves to facts and reality. Or relentlessly backpedals when faced with reality.Seeing that the purpose of this thread is the inadequacies of Red Mage melee, I'd say we've been spot on with the discussion up until the e-peen waving started. All that parse did is "reveal" something that anyone with an ounce of appreciation for class mechanics already knew when looking at RDM.

Greatguardian

07-28-2011, 09:16 AM

I know my gear's not perfect either. I never expect anyone's to be. My personal philosophy is that perfection is unattainable, but those who strive for perfection will eventually achieve excellence. I'm pretty similarly geared to Gokku, for reference:

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/96a69c312f82f4565c533b3980ec9a2c.png

I should be able to emulate an average-ish 75-cap SAM too, since my SAM honestly hasn't been used much since then (and was never any good to begin with). Though I think I tossed my Tomoe. Meh. I don't think I'd be able to offer a serious contest on another DD job, if we wanted a non-Mnk parse. Mnk is where my focus has been, as far as my DDs go. My Nin and Sam are pretty terrible, and my COR is decently nice but definitely not a serious DD job.

Edit: Oh good lord, Duelle. Do not even start trying to claim that no one in this thread has claimed that Red Mage melee is and has been viable in the current state of FFXI. Just don't. If you know it sucks hardcore and just want to do more of it? Cool, whatever, I'd rather not waste an update on it but hey that's your preference. But don't sit here and tell me that no one in this thread has tried to prove in some manner that Red Mage melee is not completely and utterly worthless right now.

Duelle

07-28-2011, 09:56 AM

Do not even start trying to claim that no one in this thread has claimed that Red Mage melee is and has been viable in the current state of FFXI. Just don't. If you know it sucks hardcore and just want to do more of it? Cool, whatever, I'd rather not waste an update on it but hey that's your preference. But don't sit here and tell me that no one in this thread has tried to prove in some manner that Red Mage melee is not completely and utterly worthless right now.If you mean the derail over the mythical "80%", I'll grant you that. Aside from that and the random trolling, we've been kicking around ideas and sentiments that it needs improvements. You're free to disagree with us, but you don't leave a class with under-performing facets if you want to design and sell it as a hybrid. You also don't piss on an archetype, and instead should make the game mechanics for it work.

That being said, what do you propose we do if not ask for improvements? Put up and shut up? We've done that for far too long.

Greatguardian

07-28-2011, 10:38 AM

As if the "Mythical 80%" derail was the only example, but yes it was one of the more recent ones.

Frankly, hybrid jobs in FFXI suck complete ass solely because they are hybrids. How awesome is that there Summoner job? Bottom of the barrel must feel pretty nice for them. What about that thar Blue Mage? I must've forgotten the part where people actually give a crap about that job outside of Abyssea. Oh, no, I didn't. It just sucks. General rule of thumb, no one needs one Hybrid when two Specialists will always be exponentially better.

Red Mage is an extremely powerful job because its magical aspects are powerful enough to be considered specialist-tier in their own right. If your nukes suck on Red Mage, something is wrong. If your enfeebles won't stick on things that aren't immune, something is wrong. If you can't stand there and take 0-100 damage from King Behemoth's Meteor, something is wrong. Red Mage is an extremely adept magical job outside of Abyssea, and is very near vital for any sort of difficult content.

However, while Red Mage's potential is extremely high, it requires an almost-constant casting/action load in order to keep it up. Pretty much the only time I'm not doing something on Red Mage is when I'm 30 seconds from my vert timer and riding my last 50~ MP. If you want to melee at a point which offers a utility that is anywhere near comparable to what Red Mage can offer as a backline specialist, you'll basically have to become the most brokenly overpowered job in the entire game.

Edit: Which Red Mage basically was, for years, and still may be considered as such outside of Abyssea.

Seriha

07-28-2011, 11:18 AM

Out of curiosity, clarify that concept of being overpowered. Because if it hinges largely on soloing certain mobs, that's more an issue of poorly designed challenges than RDM being some kind of god, as there were some solos RDM couldn't do while other jobs could possibly do them more quickly.

I still stand behind the belief that RDM's primary limitation should be its MP. Everyone that ever creeps up on that overpowered argument sits there fearing that a RDM will be main healing, nuking, buffing everyone, and meleeing all at once without breaking a sweat. We already know that wearing the current melee gear deprives us of Auto-Refresh options (though I argue even backliners aren't getting their full efficiency if casting frequently enough--ya know, idle gear 'n all). Any future martial quirk can have an MP requirement, either steep if few options become available, or if many are considered, adding up to the point where you shouldn't have the MP to throw out nothing more than the occasional MB or emergency cure while being slightly behind the big boys.

Some feel that would be impossible. Some feel it's just not worth trying to do. Myself and others will certainly disagree, as code can be written pretty much any damn way SE chooses to write it. And just looking at the atma system and the variety of buffs it offers, standalone things could be borrowed, or of course other things BRD or COR might have to be exclusive to RDM. I mean, it's not like Phalanx, Enspells, or varieties of Fast Cast have been given out to other jobs just to help them along. If you're someone that only deals in absolutes, though, then of course a hybrid will never meet optimum criteria as, by default, they're held back in some way.

Greatguardian

07-28-2011, 11:38 AM

Most durable job in the game? Check. Able to heal self and others at a passable level? Check. Able to deal direct magical damage at a passable level? Check (double check with Blizzard IV). Possessive of some of the strongest direct enfeebles in the game? Check. Possessive of significant active defensive buffs (Shell, Haste, Blink, Aquaveil, Stoneskin, Phalanx)? Check. Fast Cast trait which is now uncapped (casting time portion only) and applies to spells obtained via subjob? Check.

Were some of Red Mage's solo feats kinda gimmicky? Sure. Despot was a prime example of a stupid easy solo that basically required sitting around till the mob died, especially when you dealt with Rdms that didn't know how to nuke. Suzaku though? Seiryu? There are definitely legit examples of Red Mage being an absolute artist in their solo'ing capacity. And there's nothing wrong with touting that. They win by enfeebling the monster, curing themselves, mitigating damage, and dealing damage all at an incredible level at the same time. Before Scars of Abyssea was released, Red Mage was single-handedly capable of destroying almost every Visions NM at the 80 cap where otherwise a group would be required.

Karbuncle

07-28-2011, 11:40 AM

For the record im pretty sure whats-his-face said Doom took over Haste/something for the later half of the test because their WHM sucked/slacked behind/needed help.

IDK if that was.. adjusted in the parse or something

cidbahamut

07-28-2011, 12:06 PM

Frankly, hybrid jobs in FFXI suck complete ass solely because they are hybrids. How awesome is that there Summoner job? Bottom of the barrel must feel pretty nice for them. What about that thar Blue Mage? I must've forgotten the part where people actually give a crap about that job outside of Abyssea. Oh, no, I didn't. It just sucks. General rule of thumb, no one needs one Hybrid when two Specialists will always be exponentially better.

Red Mage is an extremely powerful job because its magical aspects are powerful enough to be considered specialist-tier in their own right. If your nukes suck on Red Mage, something is wrong. If your enfeebles won't stick on things that aren't immune, something is wrong. If you can't stand there and take 0-100 damage from King Behemoth's Meteor, something is wrong. Red Mage is an extremely adept magical job outside of Abyssea, and is very near vital for any sort of difficult content.

However, while Red Mage's potential is extremely high, it requires an almost-constant casting/action load in order to keep it up. Pretty much the only time I'm not doing something on Red Mage is when I'm 30 seconds from my vert timer and riding my last 50~ MP. If you want to melee at a point which offers a utility that is anywhere near comparable to what Red Mage can offer as a backline specialist, you'll basically have to become the most brokenly overpowered job in the entire game.

Edit: Which Red Mage basically was, for years, and still may be considered as such outside of Abyssea.

This right here is my beef with the melee crowd.

Red Mage is a gorramn monster, and all you guys can do is piss and moan about how you're not good enough at swinging a sword.

It utterly baffles me.

Seriha

07-28-2011, 12:08 PM

Okay, so you're mixing a bit of old perceptions with new things there and rehashing durability with buffs. Things like Seiryu and Suzaku I'm going to lump into the poor mob design category, while pointing to 80 cap mobs as some kind of crowning achievement we now lol at (and if these were achieved via pinning of DoT/conflux warping... yeah, mob design issue) is, well, dumb since we're still in the transition phase to the eventual new endgame.

But let's not kid ourselves, while some people take RDM with the intention to take on various NMs solo, many either never reach that point or simply fail trying. I am not at all for stagnating RDM's future growth as a punishment for the few who have excelled, and bluntly, opted to brag about it with videos and such. That's arguably what led to minimal attention prior to the cap increases, and further the minimal attention beyond. For all we love to say SE does wrong, I find it hard to believe some might be willing to say they got RDM right.

This right here is my beef with the melee crowd.

Red Mage is a gorramn monster, and all you guys can do is piss and moan about how you're not good enough at swinging a sword.

It utterly baffles me.

Of late, I'm getting the feeling it goes beyond that for you.

But really, what makes RDM a monster. Is it RDM, or Utsusemi? Because when Bind/Grav can't be exploited and pinning isn't an option (nor should it ever be), all our defenses do is let us die a bit more slowly than the other guy. Or are you still clinging to that argument we get decimated in AoE range?

Greatguardian

07-28-2011, 12:11 PM

You really think they screwed up Red mage and it's not one of the most powerful jobs in the game? Really?

Have you, like, ever played Red Mage?

Edit: Red Mage is the single most durable job in the game, period, when it has the ability to change all 16 of its gear slots at will.

Yes. Changing all 16 slots. At will. That is one of the single most powerful aspects of the Red Mage job. Being able to do everything without ever being tied down to a single piece of gear. Simply by equipping swords, and locking those two slots in order to keep TP, you are severely hampering Red Mage's potential effectiveness. Simply by having to use a Melee TP set in order to deal damage and receive gear Haste, you are throttling Red Mage's effectiveness.

Can a Magical Red Mage sit in AoE range of a monster and positively laugh as it attempts to hurt them? Hell yeah.

Can a Melee Red Mage sit in AoE range of a monster, while melee'ing, and do anything but eat up MP? Notrly. Good luck capping PDT efficiently without a Terra's Staff.

cidbahamut

07-28-2011, 12:13 PM

Not without a sword in hand she hasn't. So no, not really.

Seriha

07-28-2011, 12:17 PM

You really think they screwed up Red mage and it's not one of the most powerful jobs in the game? Really?

Screwing up != Not powerful.

You're looking at some of those applications through methods that shouldn't exist, though, or as I said with the game being in transition, as an ultimately pointless measuring stick.

But as I said, RDM can't be everything at once no matter how you might try to spin its power. If they want to be more defensive, they're spending time/MP to do that. If they're nuking aggressively, they won't be curing as much, and that works in reverse. Any and all who fear that nobody will ever level another job if a properly equipped RDM could fill any archetypical role forget that other jobs have unique benefits and SE should also be building on those.

Greatguardian

07-28-2011, 12:23 PM

Oh okay. Enfeebling monsters to avoid attacks and mitigate damage is an unintended method of combat.

I do not even want to start this whole bullcrap "It's cheating" debate, because SE has put their foot down and that's that. Pinning is not cheating. Pinning is working as intended. Kiting is not cheating. Bind/Grav snorefests are not unintended.

I do not give a flying frapoli what someone's personal opinion on what's "right" and "wrong" as far as methods of combat in a video game is. The fact of the matter is that the Developers both actively and passively support Red Mage's "cheesy" and "badly designed" strengths. And honestly? Fights like those are fun. If you think they're just some cheesy snorefest, you probably haven't even done them.

Seriha

07-28-2011, 12:26 PM

There ya go again, presuming how I play.

cidbahamut

07-28-2011, 12:34 PM

You're projecting pretty hard. Extrapolating isn't difficult.

So how about you spill the beans and list off some of the stuff you've tackled and tell us a bit about how you play. That is, unless he's got you pegged correctly and you haven't bothered exploring Red Mage's strengths because you're too busy swinging your sword. So which is it?

Seriha

07-28-2011, 12:57 PM

And so begins the inevitable "Nuh-uh!"

Maybe I'm talking as I am because I've been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and still feel it's shoddy game design for monsters built to give a party/alliance a challenge to be tickled to death by DoTs or cheesed through bad pathing or hate reset/zoning exploits.

Is kiting a viable strategy? Sure. Taking a simple step to force a mob to do a u-turn? Not so much.

Should Bind and Gravity still be useful on (H)NMs? Yes. However, I actually agree with resistance building on both so, at best, it could allow a group to recover from one wipe. The two allowing a mob to never get near you for 15 minutes or more? Takin' a leap on balance there.

Are Stoneskin, Phalanx, Blink, Protect, Shell, and a combination of PDT or MDT sets enough to make us immortal? No. Add a certain spell from a subjob that completely negates either physical or magical single-target damage, though, and longevity definitely multiplies. Slow and Paralyze certainly help this out. Blind and Evasion might be a factor if RDMs weren't bricks.

Is there anything I missed without going into a specific mob worth caring about and how to handle what it dishes out? I mean, lugging around some echo drops, remedies, and the like as a situation demands is hard, right? I couldn't possibly be an alchemist and have some of those on me at all times. No, I'm just too busy swing, swing, swinging away to know nothing about how the game works or the people who play it.

cidbahamut

07-28-2011, 01:25 PM

Knowing and doing are two different things.

So the question remains: What have you personally tackled? Or is this all theorycraft?

Seriha

07-28-2011, 01:32 PM

Forgive me if I doubt either of you two will believe me since I don't record anything I do in-game. Ohnoes, I'm backpedaling!

Gokku

07-28-2011, 01:32 PM

Avesta was here said your point is moot.

Supersun

07-28-2011, 01:44 PM

Good luck capping PDT efficiently without a Terra's Staff.

Because those Rdm/Blu solo videos totally don't exist with a PDT sword/Genbu shield.

Aurara

07-28-2011, 02:18 PM

Soloing=/=meleeing in a party setup.

Duelle

07-28-2011, 02:44 PM

The fact of the matter is that the Developers both actively and passively support Red Mage's "cheesy" and "badly designed" strengths.Being hands off and waving off/ignoring the melee camp at the 2008 fanfest is cheaper and requires less manpower than manning up and admitting they screwed up the design for RDM and mean to fix it. Passing off bad design and oversights in mechanics as "class features" is a very bad thing. Sadly, not enough people have been breathing down SE's neck over RDM soloing, and the fact Tanaka and Matsui closed themselves up through their entire tenure in XI did not help at all. The hole they dug themselves into when they created Refresh is another thing, too.

They win by enfeebling the monster, curing themselves, mitigating damage, and dealing damage all at an incredible level at the same time.Except you can't do that all at the same time. Considering gear was RDM's balancing factor before the devs chickened out and allowed overt swapping, it is still a core element of the job's design. This is why the job in its base form doesn't have a stance mechanic or anything that makes a modern hybrid tick. The problem is that in the current game that balancing factor is null and void because everyone can swap gear mid-combat.

Hence why I've been adamant about adding a stance mechanic to RDM to give the melee and backline camps what they want without screwing over anyone (that is not the Avestas of the world, who simply ruined things for the rest of us). Sadly, to make RDM work you either have to kill gear-swapping or toss in mechanics that facilitate the possible roles so that gear adds on to that instead of being the factor that allows you to do something in the first place. Right now the job is left as purposely gimp in certain parts to make the buffbot aspect attractive without it being capable of going too far. Also, Fast Cast affecting anything other than schools of magic native to RDM was a mistake.
Can a Melee Red Mage sit in AoE range of a monster, while melee'ing, and do anything but eat up MP? Notrly.I wouldn't expect it to without the proper mechanics. Hence this thread.

Oh, and LOL at you trying to justify the genbu-soloing idiocy as an art. Might as well call Reckoning Bomb the Mona Lisa of HNM/Boss soloing. Seems that according to you, that should have never been nerfed.
Soloing=/=meleeing in a party setup.Which brings us back to our topic. RDM melee lacking and the fact it should be fixed rather than the persistent trolling from various parties.

Aurara

07-28-2011, 03:16 PM

Nobody is trolling, we are pointing out why it's not viable, lol.

Duelle

07-28-2011, 03:20 PM

Nobody is trolling, we are pointing out why it's not viable, lol.Massive difference between disagreement and repeatedly going "ur doin'it wrong".

As far as non-viable, we all know why it's not viable. We just can't seem to agree on an approach to correct it.

Crimson_Slasher

07-28-2011, 06:04 PM

As it stands, very few people feel its viable to melee on rdm. The issue is how to do it, and how to make it better. As it stands while there are mechanics for and against it, mostly against it for the red mage croud, there ARE ways to improve it. Now lets take apart someone's post to make a point! Because you all know, thats what forums are for, bashing eachother. Anyway on to the facts. Lets look to great guardian's post about what rdm is good at.

Most durable job in the game he exclaims. Well lets see what we have to say about that.
>>Ninja has a spell (Migawari) that quite literally prevents fatal attacks from killing the user? Rdm got that? No? stopping utsusemi ignoring fatal moves sounds pretty Durale to me!
>>Blu has Magic barrier and cocoon, strongly adding to their defenses too, now, while i havent personally tried out magic barrier, i and many of us know cocoon can sharply cut damage with PDT gear (which a lot of they have access to) and if magic barrier is infact stronger than shell and phalanx in tandem, and they can (and they can) gear MDT effectively, they have more durability there.
>>Pld has a MASSIVE selection of PDT and MDT gear, Phalanx, high defense, and job abilities to boost those defenses, which they can also pick a subjob like rdm, blu or nin to enhance their defenses, even war has great options to do so.

Now while none of those spell mosr durable job, it doesnt seem so exclusive, and i didnt even poke the evasion/counter/utsusemi masters. Last i checked, rdms are not up tanking, being cured as they solo abyssea nms. Not only because it is not time efficient, but it requires more effort to be durable than those 3 other jobs. Onto the next point.

Able to heal itself and others at a passable level? Lets see what we have here.
>>Pld. Oh welcome back to the table! cure IV apparently makes you healer worthy, so gear up MP and refresh gear and get to it.
>>Dnc, hey friend, wait whats that? you cure BETTER than us? Less frequently, but ill call it passable. Oh whats that? You have fan dance and want to be added to the durability list? well...you do have the evasion, and pdt gear. Well next time...
>>Blu, You're here with too?! did you and pld come down together? Oh you're better at curing than rdm too? Well thanks for the help with that point.
>>Brd/whm, Oh hello! Been a while since ive seen you, you rascal you! You know, some forget you can sub whm and get cure IV, or wear a lot of the same gear we can. Oh i know you can stack a lot of mp, and refresh yourself, well welcome to the party.
>>Smn/whm, Oh thats right! you did get cure IV /whm too now didnt you? And whats more, you can use all our cure potency gear and the facio bliaut! Well there will always be a spot here for you!
>>Sch, im just going to leave you here, you have as much cure power as we do, more if you pop off a rapture here or there with that handy 45 sec stratagem charge.

Okay enough of passable healers. lets see what else he had to say.

Dealing direct magical damage at passable levels! This will be fun! Lets make this one quick then.
>>Sch, got a few tier V nukes, good enough.
>>Smn, those merit BP can land some decent numbers, not as often but that wasnt adressed
>>Blu, hmmm we need to debate you but you get a lot of mage gear, high skill, and some potent spells like charged whisker.
>>Pup, Ah yes, high evasion high melee prowess, and your little pet can do some serious nuking damage (or cure if need be)

Possesive of some of the strongest direct enfeebles in the game?
>>Blu, here again? Stalking me! Well they arent just direct, they do some damage... but i guess they have enfeebs.
>>Dnc, not strongest, but theyre decent.
>>Sch/rdm, borrowing our strengths, as can whm, or blm in some instances.
>>Nin, yep, they got em.

Active defensive buffs.
>>WHM and sch, baring the phalanx and haste, but aside from recasts, i dont see how haste is defensive.
>>Pld and blu, again, spells that do it, or having the same as above, less so for pld.

Fast cast.
>>Sub rdm and gear it up, lots of gear and jobs have access to the trait via gear, including blu.

What is the point of me breaking this down? Nothing, just like you breaking it down. This is not a game of have and have not. Just cause one job has it, doesnt mean another cant or doesnt. A good number of those jobs have many of the things we have, and still have melee prowesses and that is a fact. And while we may not NEED melee, there is little reason to not have the access to it, because lets face it, there will always be some time, or way, or person to point out that endlessly tanking a magic defensive mob is futile if we cant kill it. And to ALL of you saying "Hybrid jobs are never as good as specialists," i want you to look me in the eye and tell me how ninja got through your watchful eyes. It is a hybrid, it nukes some, it enfeebles, it tanks, it dds. Funny, its not the best at it all, but it enfeebles well, tanks great and dds great. Seems like hybrids CAN be done right doesnt it? Anyway end of wall post.

Summary: Our flexability is not entirely exclusive, and ninja is a hybrid that does it better/right.

Neisan_Quetz

07-28-2011, 10:48 PM

*Blu doesn't benefit from Enhances Stoneskin gear, buffing stoneskin to a max of ~450 hp absorbed before Phalanx is factored
* Rdm isn't being used as a tank as like pld it's pointless (and after the updates, fairly difficult to accumulate enmity), at 75 on anything you couldn't melee Rdm was the best tank for it, the moment it was something you could straight tank any other tank was better than Rdm.
*Waltz timer says hi
*Pld gets 20% cure potency at best using gimp main/offhands, Rdm beats that in one slot.
*Blu is better at Aoe nukes but most of the rest (and even CW itself) have long recast and/or pathetic range.

Swords

07-29-2011, 01:58 AM

Frankly, there's nothing wrong with wanting more out of our job even if it's not nor ever will be considered viable. Hell most jobs have already gained something to really call their own and set them apart post 60+, RDM... got a JA that they should have gotten at Lv15 over 6 years ago and a half-assed JA that you would likely only gain full benefit from solo. If you compare all that RDM has and all that other jobs have, most of our important JA's and spells equate to subjob material. RDM really lacks any native exclusiveness aside from Refresh II, and most of us know the last thing we really need is another half dozen spells to add to our already stressed casting load (unless AoE buffs are involved which would help relieve some of it.)

We all have differing opinions on how we think RDM should grow, now that RDM has been given a chance to actually get something. Most of the melee crowd I think, would prefer to have something that would allow them the option to actually do something decent (if not significant) if the opportunity arises to actually melee, and actually push the good RDM's out there to invest time into a decent gear-set for such an occasion. It might also flounder another age of wannabe melee RDM's, but anyone with half a brain knows like forum trolls, Regis Philman, and Jay Leno they weren't going to disappear to begin with.

The backline supporters, tend to want more enhancements for their backline job. While I'm for this, I am a bit skeptical as well. As I stated above, we have an enormous casting load and any good RDM who's playing a significant backline role (and I'm using that term loosely) will likely be casting nonstop. More spells would likely equate to an even heavier casting load, unless any new buffs are AoE or higher tier of what we already have.

And really it doesn't begin to touch basis on gear and that three ring circus of gear swapping and inventory issues we go through on a daily basis. Most melee classes just have a TP and WS setup, most mage classes really only need a Nuke/Cure and heal MP/Refresh setup to be good at their jobs. A good RDM on the other hand, at the minimum has Debuff, Cure, Buff, Nuke setups.

In either case I'm not going to hold my breath on what SE does, they're quite notorious for saying they're going to do something then do the opposite. As it stands, RDM is not going to advance any further until SE breaks the fourth wall and does something significant.

Frankly I don't see why they're so hesitant on giving RDM something powerful, if anything they can always scale it back like they did with SAM, RNG, or the 2h update. What are they afraid of, another Avesta appearing? More HNM solo exploits? It's already bad enough we've had to work twice as hard to be half as good as any specialist, I think we all just want something to call our own that makes our efforts stand out and shine in a party setting that does not equate to just spamming buffs and cures between enfeebles.

NOTE: I generalized my post, so I was not using any specific situation or context when writing it.

Crimson_Slasher

07-29-2011, 02:25 AM

GASP! You mean those job have...FLAWS? Really. I never knew. My turn then?

-Blu doesnt benefit from enhanced stoneskin, big deal, half the time blu these days is subbing rdm when they dont sub nin, meaning they STILL can utilize the gear.
-Nobody said it wasnt pointless to try to tank or useful to take a hit, but the point still stands that rdm has no hate tools, and its durabilites, while great, are a moot point when you are backlining 99% of the time. Like i said, rdm being able to take a beating means nothing because even as it stands, you do NOT see much (if any) rdm + anything doing NMs where the rdm is performing the tank duties, because as durable as they are, it takes more effort to maintain it than other jobs which does NOT allow them to inflict any damage. Once again, tanking a mob endlessly and being unable to kill it is not hard, any thf, dnc, or nin has practice with back tanking while waiting for proc. So when you see a rdm tanking damage and nuking effectively, or even meleeing effectively, then you can make the point that it actually matters. And while at it, if you are wearing that gear and not doing anything, unless you are in a battlefield, if you have enough time to realize the X ability is coming, and can get to the macro, in a lot of cases you could have simply stepped out of range.
-Waltz timers are an issue, sure, but being able to throw a bigger cure means you need to do it less often. Sure they cant main heal a party inside or outside abyssea, but they can do quite a bit, and you cant discredit that. Also theres more waltz potency gear that is easier to come by than cure potency that rdm can use.
-If pld is functioning in the capacity of healer, for what ever reason that may be, why does their "gimp main/offhand" equipment matter? it gets the job done so if the pld is willing to perform that role, the gear shouldnt matter.
-Range or the fact that a nuke is AOE does not diminish its ability to deal magical damage, it may have to get closer, but it can still effectively do magical damage, besides, blu may be better at AOE nukes, but atleast it has the option to do AOE nukes.

Also. PLD cure potency: Templar mace (10%) Hospitalizer Earing (5%) Roundel earing (5%) Dagda's Shield (5%)
-Net total (25%) (33% if champion Gaela and blitzer polyon are augmented with cure potency)
RDM cure potency: Surya's staff+2 (22%) Flygla's torque (3%) Roundel earing (5%) Aug'ed sidestory gear (8%) auger's gloves (4%) Max known aug'ed zenith boots. (4%)
-Net total 46% (without the augmented gear at best you can get 35%, just 2% off pld with auged gear.)

It still comes down to our flexability not being exclusive

Neisan_Quetz

07-29-2011, 02:41 AM

So we can agree all jobs have drawbacks and Rdm isn't exclusive on this, okay.

Thanks for proving my point on Pld cure potency too.

If Nm aoes are an issue then yes the range of the spell is an issue, especially if the monster moves for whatever reason.

There's a grand total of 2 jobs with AoE magical Nukes unless I'm missing something, not seeing how this is somehow a problem.

cidbahamut

07-29-2011, 02:46 AM

And really it doesn't begin to touch basis on gear and that three ring circus of gear swapping and inventory issues we go through on a daily basis. Most melee classes just have a TP and WS setup, most mage classes really only need a Nuke/Cure and heal MP/Refresh setup to be good at their jobs. A good RDM on the other hand, at the minimum has Debuff, Cure, Buff, Nuke setups.

You forgot idle, PDT and MDT sets. For backline work your inventory is very close to 80, if not exceeding that and requiring you to keep certain pieces in the mog sack as the situation dictates (ie, store your MDT set when fighting mobs that have no magical damage). I can't imagine adding full TP and WS sets to that.

Frankly I don't see why they're so hesitant on giving RDM something powerful, if anything they can always scale it back like they did with SAM, RNG, or the 2h update. What are they afraid of, another Avesta appearing? More HNM solo exploits? It's already bad enough we've had to work twice as hard to be half as good as any specialist, I think we all just want something to call our own that makes our efforts stand out and shine in a party setting that does not equate to just spamming buffs and cures between enfeebles.

Why don't we ask some Rangers how that "scaling back" worked out for them?

Neisan_Quetz

07-29-2011, 02:49 AM

2H update adjustment was done pretty well I think, can't say the same for the others.

Gokku

07-29-2011, 03:33 AM

2H update adjustment was done pretty well I think, can't say the same for the others.

do you have any idea what they broke in the 1st 2h update? it would have ruined rdm and every other 1 handed and hth dd for the rest of the game.

Supersun

07-29-2011, 03:43 AM

You mean they didn't anyway even after they fixed it?

Because I thought 1H DDs were a joke until Razed Ruin.

Swords

07-29-2011, 03:46 AM

Aye it pretty much butchered 1h wielders, I even recall some MNK's saying they were doing more damage with a staff before they scaled the 2h update back. I don't think 1h were too bad off after the fix till the damage gap between one and two handed weapons started to grow further apart.

Gokku

07-29-2011, 04:28 AM

Neisan_Quetz

07-29-2011, 04:30 AM

Not the initial update >< I mean after the adjustment so that it wasn't 1 str = 1 attack, that was pretty broken. On the flipside of 2h becoming much stronger before that 2H weapons sucked, alot.

Karbuncle

07-29-2011, 04:57 AM

during the 2h update all 1h and hth dmg was capped , my monk with destroyers litterly could not hit harder then 163dmg a punch. *doesnt seem like an issue until* you go from being able to solo anything in the VT or lower range to barely able to kill a DC , i wanna say the 163 was on crit hits hold on ill find a link for all the rdms bah creams old SS's of the dmg cap are dead.

I actually remember that, I was using Daggers though, Was running up Delkfutts tower right after the update and stopped to kill something, Noticed all my attacks did the same damage (including Critical hits) and was like "WTF".

Duelle

07-29-2011, 06:06 AM

Most of the melee crowd I think, would prefer to have something that would allow them the option to actually do something decent (if not significant) if the opportunity arises to actually melee, and actually push the good RDM's out there to invest time into a decent gear-set for such an occasion. It might also flounder another age of wannabe melee RDM's, but anyone with half a brain knows like forum trolls, Regis Philman, and Jay Leno they weren't going to disappear to begin with.Depends on how the class functions between the mage and melee sides of RDM. If the only wannabe's are those that gear incorrectly (wearing mage gear when front-lining), then we'll be in a good place. If you ease the dependence on that three ring circus of gear swapping (I really like how you put that, by the way), even better.

Frankly I don't see why they're so hesitant on giving RDM something powerful, if anything they can always scale it back like they did with SAM, RNG, or the 2h update. What are they afraid of, another Avesta appearing? More HNM solo exploits? It's already bad enough we've had to work twice as hard to be half as good as any specialist, I think we all just want something to call our own that makes our efforts stand out and shine in a party setting that does not equate to just spamming buffs and cures between enfeebles.I agree here. If something comes out OP when you implement it or is abused in a way that is unintended, you nerf it or remove it ASAP. If a change makes a melee RDM with Blau+Joyeuse or maybe...I don't know, Martial Anelace+Joyeuse do more damage than say a hagun SAM at the same level with similar gear, then yeah, it's OP and should be nerfed. If the same RDM is doing roughly 5% less than the SAM, then we'd be good. Overly general, as I'd want other changes in place, but yes something that comes out OP could and should be nerfed where appropriate.

Gokku

07-29-2011, 07:46 AM

I actually remember that, I was using Daggers though, Was running up Delkfutts tower right after the update and stopped to kill something, Noticed all my attacks did the same damage (including Critical hits) and was like "WTF".
yup 2 handed update was the closest ive ever gotten to rage perm quitting ffxi. idk with SE's track record for "fixing" jobs if i was a rdm i wouldnt be asking for shit id try to stay under there radar and get away with as much shit as i can. look at poor Drg, it took years and a worse job before SE said sorry and unscrewed them and i dont feel like they have or will ever recover from it, and same goes to ranger.

Duelle

07-29-2011, 10:58 AM

idk with SE's track record for "fixing" jobs if i was a rdm i wouldnt be asking for shit id try to stay under there radar and get away with as much shit as i can.Which would leave us with a playstyle most of us have grown tired of, a job archetype still covered in poop, and the lack of completion at seeing a guy with a sword that can cast magic being good for little more than healing and casting buffs.

look at poor Drg, it took years and a worse job before SE said sorry and unscrewed them and i dont feel like they have or will ever recover from it, and same goes to ranger.The changes to DRG and RNG were under a different developer team (whether they could recognize good class design if it hit them in the face with a 2x4 is another matter). I don't know if the new guys subscribe to the Tanaka or Matsui schools of development, but it's worth a shot to try to bring about change, IMO.

TybudX

07-29-2011, 11:25 AM

Except you can't do that all at the same time.

Well shit, I wish you had told me this sooner. I never would have tanked all those old HNMs by those exact same means. I guess I haven't really been soloing NMs properly all these years, either. Thank you so much for clearing that up for me.

Doombringer

07-29-2011, 11:51 AM

i hate the 2hander update... i really do.. it ruined war for me..

i PICKED warrior... because it was the duel wield DD... and now it isn't..... if war wasn't such a big deal in abyssea i prolly woulda just left it at 75 forever.

plus, if they felt that 2handed weapons were underpowered, why re-write the rules of the game for them? why not add grips with more significant stat bonus'? why not add 2 handed weapons with higher base damage? or just straight up increase the dmg on existing weapons? (like they did with daggers so long ago?) why did they need to re-write the game so every chump who happens to be holding his weapon with both hands gets a free +30 atk/acc? and then lets raise the atk function for them to, why not?

i remember my war had.. maneater, juggernaut, perdu hanger, and joyeuse.. basically everything i could have wanted except a ridill.. then overnight i became "gimp"...... bullshit >.>

Neisan_Quetz

07-29-2011, 12:42 PM

Idk, if your A+ weapon is being disregarded for B skill weapons (in Drk and War's Case, yea War has A- in Axe but you still offhanded B swords depending) then something is wrong with that. That and pretty much everyone was subbing Nin, SE doesn't seem to like that.

2h get more attack/accuracy but need more attack to cap it as well.

Wasn't the best fix but I don't see it as the worst adjustment ever, War still did/does good damage, just changed back to its main weapon.

Original Rng nerf falls under one of worst adjustments ever, did nothing but greatly reduce the amount of people playing Rng.

cidbahamut

07-29-2011, 12:55 PM

Which would leave us with a playstyle most of us have grown tired of, a job archetype still covered in poop, and the lack of completion at seeing a guy with a sword that can cast magic being good for little more than healing and casting buffs.
You sound very unhappy. Have you considered leveling another class that might be better suited to what you're looking for?

Greatguardian

07-29-2011, 02:17 PM

You sound very unhappy. Have you considered leveling another class that might be better suited to what you're looking for?

I wonder this a lot myself. A lot of people on these forums, Red Mage or otherwise, seem preoccupied with what they thought a job would be, or what they think a job should be, and not what a job actually is. Whether it's a comparison to other Final Fantasy games, facets of in-game lore, or simply the character Archetypes that each job name represents, people want the game to change to reflect their vision rather than simply pursuing the class, or the game, which has what they are looking for.

FFXI isn't the only game in the world, Red Mage is not the only job in the world. I'm not trying to push people off, but really, if the game itself is just not fun for them, they should try other games. If a job is not something they envisioned, then they should try other jobs. As far as Mage/Melee swordsmen go, Red Mage definitely takes after the Mage side while Blue Mage takes after the melee side. Have any of the RdMelee enthusiasts tried out Blue Mage? It seems to basically be everything you're asking for, just with a different color in its name.

I know some people have their sort of sentimental attachment to one job or another, and that's fine. But realize that that's all that is. It's a sentimental attachment to the color red. It doesn't have to do with you liking the job itself, because it's obvious that Red Mage in its current state is not making you happy. You just like the name. Or the idea of Red Mage.

I'd honestly really suggest Dancer or Blue Mage to a lot of Rdmelee enthusiasts. Blue mage especially, though I'll warn you right now, as much attention as the job's had in Abyssea, it's practically worthless outside and its time in the limelight is most definitely fading fast. Take that for what you will.

Seriha

07-29-2011, 04:11 PM

Could satisfaction be found in other jobs? Sure. I like playing BLU. I don't think it's useless outside of Abyssea as you've repeated multiple times now, but I also believe that similar, yet different can be achieved. Ignoring it won't make that happen. Quitting FFXI won't make that happen. You might not like the concept of a paying subscription justifying a voice, but if at any point in your life you've ever hoped for the most of your dollar, then we're on some common ground. That said, surely you've realized by now that you're not going to change the minds of those who've been at this for a while. Some might give up the fight, sure, and I can't blame them when you get broadsided by your fellow players on one end and given the silent treatment by SE on the other. And while RDM has been a personal focus for me for a long time now, I'm a believer that SE has been universally too timid when it comes to adjusting all jobs, exception being the two-handed update. While the RNG "nerf" certainly wasn't handled as best as it could've been, it also happens to be a job where a conceptual point was being violated with the job often meleeing more than shooting. SE just happened to have the balls to act on it and guide players toward their vision, awkward as it still is with ammo expense and enmity issues complicating the distance game.

Duelle

07-29-2011, 05:44 PM

A lot of people on these forums, Red Mage or otherwise, seem preoccupied with what they thought a job would be, or what they think a job should be, and not what a job actually is. Whether it's a comparison to other Final Fantasy games, facets of in-game lore, or simply the character Archetypes that each job name represents, people want the game to change to reflect their vision rather than simply pursuing the class, or the game, which has what they are looking for.I was waiting for you to draw this card.

It's less about personal vision and more about what the archetypes represent and how they play in the context of MMOs. You'd be raising eyebrows if DRK was suddenly turned into a healer and PLD was turned into a buff spammer. All hell would break loose if SAM had it's WS-oriented playstyle removed and replaced with relying on daggers. THFs would riot if they suddenly became an enfeebling class with no melee abilities. BLMs would probably crash servers if they were turned into a HoT class with their nukes heavily de-emphasized. That's is how some of us in the melee camp feel in relation to our job. I'm personally fine with RDM having the option to be oriented for support if a player wants to play as such. What I'm not fine with is that everything else is downright useless and makes for a very incomplete hybrid.

FFXI isn't the only game in the world, Red Mage is not the only job in the world. I'm not trying to push people off, but really, if the game itself is just not fun for them, they should try other games. If a job is not something they envisioned, then they should try other jobs.Sorry, but some of us aren't the type to look away from a problem and forgetting about it. By your logic, every paladin in the Ret movement (of which I was also a part of) that wanted our spec to become group and raid-worthy should have just rerolled warriors like so many of the trolls that plagued our threads wanted us to. Had we given up, Ret would have never gotten the much-needed fixes to get it to work as the Paladin class' melee spec. The same thing is very possible with Red Mage, seeing as this is a repeat of the exact same scenario in every way, including baseline class design, insults hurled at the melee camp, infighting within the same class and even people like you telling us that we're either a) doin' it wrong or b) asking us to reroll.

It seems to basically be everything you're asking for, just with a different color in its name.From a mechanics perspective BLU is decent. I don't like how it plays, nor what the class entails. Besides, a scimitar and pointy shoes don't even come close to replacing the pimp hat and rapier.

You're really grasping at straws if you're trying to bring sentimental attachment into this conversation. That'd be like calling the SMN players that want to improve their class to be more than just BPs and +Pet: Stat Gear idiots, ignoring SE's screw up that pretty much ruined the job's image built up from every FF that featured Summoners prior to XI coming out. They obviously should also change jobs to something else and leave the problem unresolved.

Gokku

07-29-2011, 05:58 PM

Seriha

07-29-2011, 06:03 PM

As someone who believes DRK's magical aspects should be brought to meaningful levels, which is basically the reverse of RDM's situation, yes, I'd more than likely be advocating improvements. I wouldn't be able to tell you if the end result would reflect the RDM of now, but it's not hard to see DRK has a different direction than RDM.

Duelle

07-29-2011, 08:41 PM

i wonder if the coin was flipped and rdm had plenty of DD ability but damn near no useful spells would the same argument not be had about "make our spells better" "why cant we cast more then cure 3" etc etc.Depends on the mechanics already in place and what the job already brings to the table. This is a what if, so could go either way, I would think.

Rayik

07-29-2011, 09:40 PM

i wonder if the coin was flipped and rdm had plenty off DD ability but damn near no useful spells would the same argument not be had about "make our spells better" "why cant we cast more then cure 3" etc etc.

This is a good question. For me, I wouldn't be complaining. Had my spell list been chopped in half, but I were an able-bodied and accepted melee job, I'd still be fine. As a support mage, I have absolutely no want or need to have spells on nearly the same level as any specialist job. I'd be fine with Cure 3, en-spells, and a few debuffs.

<incoming other FF reference> When I played FF1, my RDM in that game was a melee-first, mage-second, since my WHM was doing the curing, and the BLM was doing the nuking. But back then, spell resources were extremely limited, so you didn't cast a spell unless you HAD to, since there was no "resting" in dungeons.

Rayik

07-29-2011, 09:57 PM

I wonder this a lot myself. A lot of people on these forums, Red Mage or otherwise, seem preoccupied with what they thought a job would be, or what they think a job should be, and not what a job actually is. Whether it's a comparison to other Final Fantasy games, facets of in-game lore, or simply the character Archetypes that each job name represents, people want the game to change to reflect their vision rather than simply pursuing the class, or the game, which has what they are looking for.

FFXI isn't the only game in the world, Red Mage is not the only job in the world. I'm not trying to push people off, but really, if the game itself is just not fun for them, they should try other games. If a job is not something they envisioned, then they should try other jobs. As far as Mage/Melee swordsmen go, Red Mage definitely takes after the Mage side while Blue Mage takes after the melee side. Have any of the RdMelee enthusiasts tried out Blue Mage? It seems to basically be everything you're asking for, just with a different color in its name.

I know some people have their sort of sentimental attachment to one job or another, and that's fine. But realize that that's all that is. It's a sentimental attachment to the color red. It doesn't have to do with you liking the job itself, because it's obvious that Red Mage in its current state is not making you happy. You just like the name. Or the idea of Red Mage.

I'd honestly really suggest Dancer or Blue Mage to a lot of Rdmelee enthusiasts. Blue mage especially, though I'll warn you right now, as much attention as the job's had in Abyssea, it's practically worthless outside and its time in the limelight is most definitely fading fast. Take that for what you will.

If the only defining characteristic of RDM you can see is the color red, maybe you are the one who should be playing a different job. By your logic, if all you want to do is stand in the back line and cast spells, why don't you play SCH? WHM? BLM? Only difference is the name, right?

How do you know that your vision of what RDM is, is the "correct" one? As a hybrid job, we are free to interpret this job as we please, especially considering the source material(our AF is named after swordsman for crying out loud). I'm not even talking about older FF's this time, I'm talking about in-game, FFXI-specific references(AF2 and 3 gear, Relic/Mythic weapons, etc). I don't see BLM, WHM, or SCH's listed on gear such as Atheling Mantle, Dusk gear, Brisk Mask, Calmecac Trousers, etc.

The job needs fixed. Our main melee weapon is sword, yet we get no decent or magic-based sword WS's. But, we do get the dagger ones... This makes no sense. Everything is not fine. Sticking our heads in the sand is the worst possible thing we can do right now.

TybudX

07-30-2011, 04:28 AM

How do you know that your vision of what RDM is, is the "correct" one?

Because RDM performs infinitely better as a soloer, a tank, or a back line job than it ever has as a melee. Seems really obvious to people who don't have their heads up their asses.

Greatguardian

07-30-2011, 06:09 AM

Wow.

Me: "People have a sentimental attachment to the character class, or an attachment to the archetypes that are represented by the class names."

Duelle: "No, it's not sentimental. People have an attachment to the archetypes."

Herp bloody freaking derp. Who cares what the archetype is? Who cares what the class is called? Would you feel better if they just called it Thaurtamage? Conjurer? Pugilist? There is a reason they changed those names for FF14. Why is that? Because certain FFXI players absolutely refused to look at anything beyond a classes name to determine what it "Should" be doing.

Forget that the job is called Red Mage. Forget that it's your first job, your favorite job, your only job, whatever it is. Forget what Red Mage is in other games. Forget the archetype that Red Mage represents. Let's call it SpankWustler. Now, I see that SpankWustler is already an incredibly potent magical job with an immense amount of freedom granted it by its gear access and the game's ability to switch gear sets on the fly.

I like SpankWustler. I do not care that the armor is called FrankfurterFlipper's Tunic. I obviously do not flip frankfurters as a combat mechanic. But maybe I should. I mean, the armor is called FrankfurterFlipper's Attire. What the hell is wrong with this game and its design if I can have all of this armor named after Frankfurter flipping and not actually flip Frankfurters? Who cares that SpankWustler is an awesome job with some of the most useful artifact, relic, and Empyrean armor in the entire game. When you call a set Frankfurterflipper's Attire, you better bloody include a Frankfurter flipping mechanic so help me god.

Hyrist

07-30-2011, 06:56 AM

Who cares what the archetype is?
o/

Who cares what the class is called?
o/

This game thrives on it's archtypes, it was the primary draw for the majority of it's playerbase, and int continues to be a draw for people. In spite of all of it's flaws and benefits, the one thing it will always hold over every other MMO is that it is THE Final Fantasy MMO.

You think Archetypes aren't important. Take a look at how FFXIV is changing their 'unique' jobs back into those archetypes.

You can debate how 'awesome' (lol) a mage Red Mage is/was, whatever. But you're never going to bat down the desire to have more of the jobs Archetypical role and capabilities, ever.

And honestly, you can easily achieve it without harming the back-line role people have come to enjoy. You're arguing it down out of dislike for the players that desire it and how it differs from your viewpoint. Rather than looking at the entirety of both sides objectively and seeing the easy compromise that could benefit both camps and Red Mage's identity as a whole.

Merton9999

07-30-2011, 07:39 AM

From a mechanics perspective BLU is decent. I don't like how it plays, nor what the class entails. Besides, a scimitar and pointy shoes don't even come close to replacing the pimp hat and rapier.

Agreed. This is exactly why I would love it if RDM functioned liked BLU. BLU outfits are atrocious. I continued with RDM after it became a Cyclist just because I wanted to wear the chapeau.

To the "Go play BLU" crowd: I already play BLU because it's what I wanted out of RDM mechanically. I'll continue to suggest that I be able to do it in a pimp hat, thanks. I'm sure that makes me the poster child of everything that's wrong with the FFXI playerbase, so be it.

Actually, maybe when I grow up I'll have the existential maturity to look past symbols and other such trappings, and be a better gamer. Nah, somehow I think when the Gaming Intelligentsia has their way and turns FFXV into a hamburger tossing match, that'll be the first midnight release I skip.

Seriously, I don't know how the parsing and spreadsheet obsessed have gotten to such a point to suggest that imagery doesn't matter in a video game. My only reasonable guess is it's just a hysterical attempt at making a play style preference seem like a principal.

As Hyrist continues to point out, there's no reason RDM can't do both.

cidbahamut

07-30-2011, 07:56 AM

It's not that it doesn't matter at all, it's that it doesn't matter when it comes to class design. Honestly, if the appearance is that important to you but BLU gives you what you're looking for mechanically then just get the PC version and edit the .dat files so you wear the pimp suit.

Stylin

07-30-2011, 09:15 AM

ITT: Progress is "damaging" to the game.

The reason this thread has 1000+ posts is not because a compromise is impossible; this lies on your shoulders for having the hubris to tell other people they're not allowed to want something.

cidbahamut

07-30-2011, 09:17 AM

ITT: wasting time and resources on trivial things instead of making meaningful adjustments is "progress".

Supersun

07-30-2011, 09:36 AM

cidbahamut

07-30-2011, 09:46 AM

I'm anti-stupid, not anti-rdm. Red Mage is the job I play pretty much to the exclusion of everything else. Sorry if you can't tell the difference.

Seriha

07-30-2011, 10:31 AM

Some irony, Drjones.

Greatguardian

07-30-2011, 10:46 AM

ITT: just because you don't care for the lore of the final fantasy series means the Dev team isn't allowed to take 2 minutes to change 5 lines of code that would satisfy 99% of these complaints and every change in this game has to be relevant to you.

Seriously, your anti-melee rdm fanaticism is starting to scare me Cid. Your crusade is starting to borderline Starcade level obsession.

You're right. I forgot. The Devs just have a magic switch somewhere in their office that allows them to make Red Mage Melee good. They just never turned it on. No worries, I'm sure if you rabble about it enough they'll consider exerting the enormous amount of effort it would take to turn that switch on and everything would be hunky dory.

Oh yes and I obviously love crushing the dreams of other people. That's totally the only reason I post here.

Swords

07-30-2011, 11:00 AM

ITT: wasting time and resources on trivial things instead of making meaningful adjustments is "progress".

You know progress is always preceded by trial and error, and SE can only predict how the audience will react to a new adjustment. If everything was going to go to SE's original plan NIN would have never been a tank, RNG would have never needed to be nerfed, we would still be in balanced parties, and zerging would only be referenced to Starcraft games.

Most of these "trivial" things are usually taken out of context to what SE originally intends, even if the "trivial" item fits the "Archtype" of the class. THF are all about treasure and trickery, thus get abilities like steal, mug, despoil, SA, TA, and TH. Not all those abilities are considered useful especially in a party setting, but they're there and are a part of the job. RDM is no different in this aspect, it's based off a fencer/magic swordsman Archtype and gets things like en-spells and composure for the melee side and buffs, nukes, cures, and enfeebles for the magic side.

Weather or not players consider one aspect viable, useful, or useless is a different story, but no matter how much SE listens or chooses not to listen there are folks who are still going to be unhappy and think anything that's changed that might deter a job from it's current state is the worst thing that could happen to the job.

Duelle

07-30-2011, 11:05 AM

Duelle: "No, it's not sentimental. People have an attachment to the archetypes."Not attachment. Call it logical and reasonable expectations. Try to open your eyes and accept actual precedent, which by the way has always held weight in fantasy settings since the days of Tolkien. Nice of you to try to misrepresent something I said, though.

Who cares what the archetype is? Who cares what the class is called?I care, for one. For two, if you're actually denouncing the archetypes, why are you playing a fantasy-based game? Fantasy games are the most known dependents on the archetypes.

Let's call it SpankWustler. Now, I see that SpankWustler is already an incredibly potent magical job with an immense amount of freedom granted it by its gear access and the game's ability to switch gear sets on the fly.If SpankWustler comes with a sword in one hand and magic in the other, guess what archetype he falls under. Could be an axe or a spear or anything for that matter. I'd call Spanky a hybrid and would expect him to have options as a proper hybrid should. Not spam Restorative Spank in party over and over again while bringing little else of value to a group.

Seriously, I don't know how the parsing and spreadsheet obsessed have gotten to such a point to suggest that imagery doesn't matter in a video game. My only reasonable guess is it's just a hysterical attempt at making a play style preference seem like a principle.This a thousand times over. Mechanics, inter-class dynamics and image all need to mesh and come together.

What Hyrist said.This too.

You're right. I forgot. The Devs just have a magic switch somewhere in their office that allows them to make Red Mage Melee good. They just never turned it on.This made me laugh. I think everyone here knows making melee viable is no small task. It isn't a switch that you flip and suddenly everything is pink with rainbows and floating unicorns. It'll require work, number crunching, actual brainstorming on how to make the class work and a bunch of other things (like addition and removal of mechanics if necessary).

That being said, I used to joke about the possibility of there being somewhere in the recesses of the offices at Square Enix a flash drive with a melee update for RDM kept under lock and key (a sad, more pathetic version of the Sword of A Thousand Truths bit), sealed away from the world out of fear of what it would do to the hierarchies within the game if unleashed upon Vana'diel.

Greatguardian

07-30-2011, 11:51 AM

Seriha

07-30-2011, 12:16 PM

And in the real world you sell milk as milk, not apple juice.

Greatguardian

07-30-2011, 12:30 PM

Funny, I was under the impression that there was some sort of Administration that handled the distribution of Food and Drugs that ensured that consumers were not suffering from legitimate physical and medical consequences by ingesting products that were not what they described.

I bet that totally applies to concepts in an intellectual property distributed over a video game medium.

Oh right.

It doesn't.

Elvaan are stronger than Humes. I demand that all Elvaan be changed to be lanky tree-huggers with powerful magics and absolutely zero physical prowess. Why? Because creative license is a travesty. Anything that differs from Dungeons and Dragons, Tolkein, and FF1 character archetypes must be wrong.

Neisan_Quetz

07-30-2011, 12:33 PM

I must of missed melee Rdm's high time in lore since the only incarnation I can see that was a decent melee is 1's Red Wizard, and that's the upgrade to Rdm. All of them that were actually listed as Rdm (and not a character with Rdm-like characteristics) also typically had weaker stats as well.

cidbahamut

07-30-2011, 12:38 PM

This made me laugh. I think everyone here knows making melee viable is no small task. It isn't a switch that you flip and suddenly everything is pink with rainbows and floating unicorns. It'll require work, number crunching, actual brainstorming on how to make the class work and a bunch of other things (like addition and removal of mechanics if necessary).

Do you not understand why this has the potential to be an absolutely terrible thing? Do you realize who would be in charge of implementing such changes and what their track record is?

Why do you hate SpankWustler so much?

:(

Seriha

07-30-2011, 12:45 PM

Greatguardian

07-30-2011, 12:50 PM

Holy crap, guys. The 9 year old game has changed and grown dynamically over time, allowing certain trends to become obsolete while others surface as the context of the game changes?

Blown. My. Mind.

Edit: There also is no FDA for creative license. Fiction can be whatever the hell the writer wants it to be, broski. That was the point. Your analogy is terrible because Zombie Tolkein writing a book where Orks are bright purple and pink and represent the epitome of law and order is well within his rights.

Seriha

07-30-2011, 12:58 PM

Point missed. Again.

Greatguardian

07-30-2011, 01:02 PM

Oh I see your point and you're reaching. It's not false advertising. That doesn't exist in works of fiction. They can change Samurai into a main healer if they want. Those character blurbs haven't changed for over 10 years. Somehow, I think the Job Vision Manifesto they released all of a week ago is a better gauge of how the current Development team feels about SpankWustler than a 10+ year old blurb on out-of-date instruction manuals and the game's ancient, nigh-never-updated official webpage.

Seriha

07-30-2011, 01:20 PM

No, what I see is someone willing to flip everyone the bird just because they think they're right. Your excuse? MMO evolution?

I don't play FFXI because of Tolkien. Thus, his concept of elves and orcs mean nothing here. What I do care about, however, is a company maintaining loyalty to their fans and adhering to the foundations of concepts they establish. What you are reaching for is essentially a retcon. Do such things happen in the creative world? Sure. Are they always for the better? Nope. Yes, SE could turn SAM into a main healer tomorrow. It could even be the best healer in the game. That doesn't mean that the move isn't dumb. And again, I'm puzzled when continued implications of SE's developmental incompetence arise, for anything but RDM, they're wrong. Yet, for years, we've had people trying to convey that something isn't right in Vana'diel.

Some of us do realize that player trends and concepts can reach forks where veering from the established might be easier, while at the same time displeasing a small amount of players. However, erecting giant brick walls at these forks to never be broken because they don't interest you or don't think they can work? No. By all means, cling to the manifesto and its egregious disservice of our current description relative to game mechanics. Could SE fix it so we could truly be the buffing and debuffing demi-gods? Sure. But then again, that's an eerily similar blind faith like we had when they said the planned to move RDMs up front. You might be waiting a very long time for them to deliver on a "promise".

Greatguardian

07-30-2011, 01:30 PM

Oh geez. Red Mage was taken off swords now? Nah. It just sucks relative to the alternatives. We could just nerf Rdm's magic and have it be a crap job all around, then the relative value of melee to Rdm will have increased. There is no giant brick wall aside from those that the players themselves erect because they don't want to deal with crappy Rdmelees.

All I am is a Red Mage who could give a crap less about swinging a dinky little sword when I can be a veritable ubermage without one. And I don't need people calling for a nerf to Red Mage's magical side in order to "balance" it out (Yes, Duelle does this. I don't care if you don't. It happens here). If/When Red Mage gets an update, I want it to be one that actually plays to its strengths and further develops the abilities and traits that have made Red Mage as powerful as it is today.

If you're not entirely sure how/why Red Mage is a buffing and debuffing Demi-God, I can fill you in. Though I doubt you'll care, considering you think Red Mage's debuffing prowess is "Cheesy".

Seriha

07-30-2011, 01:40 PM

There is no giant brick wall aside from those that the players themselves erect because they don't want to deal with crappy Rdmelees.

Which is again where I remind you that this is solely a result of SE's approach to the job. I have no doubt you'd be singing a different tune it wasn't lol.

Though I doubt you'll care, considering you think Red Mage's debuffing prowess is "Cheesy".

Reading selectively were we? I actually have little problem with our current debuff line. The actual issues lie more with mobs themselves or game quirks that allow things that shouldn't be possible.

Neisan_Quetz

07-30-2011, 01:43 PM

Artificial difficulty etc.

cidbahamut

07-30-2011, 01:44 PM

We could just nerf Rdm's magic and have it be a crap job all around, then the relative value of melee to Rdm will have increased.
And then we'd be closer to the traditional role of Red Mage in other games: Sucking at everything and being entirely useless.

Wouldn't that just be grand?

Duelle

07-30-2011, 01:44 PM

Elvaan are stronger than Humes. I demand that all Elvaan be changed to be lanky tree-huggers with powerful magics and absolutely zero physical prowess.Why? Elves always required being solid in terms of combat (which, *gasp* Elvaan happen to be). Elves live in forests, which is different from being tree-huggers too, btw. If anything, Elvaan being weak in the magic department should be the call to complain (not that it would be much of one). Nice try, though.

I must of missed melee Rdm's high time in lore since the only incarnation I can see that was a decent melee is 1's Red Wizard, and that's the upgrade to Rdm. All of them that were actually listed as Rdm (and not a character with Rdm-like characteristics) also typically had weaker stats as well.This simply makes me return to my comment on certain FF elements not working in an MMO context. That'd be like claiming Cyan's use of sword skills would work in an MMO if left intact. This is the same thing, as certain parts of the design obviously make the transition less than stellar.

As an aside, I will admit the lore-related pillar to Red Mage happens to be none other than Rainemard, the guy that poked his nose where it didn't belong and got quartered and stuffed in a box for his troubles. Not much to go by, to be honest. That's more fault of the quest designers and the writers.

They can change Samurai into a main healer if they want.And thus you prove you're not worth listening to. You're worrying about numbers and DPS and stuff in a vacuum rather than looking at a class and recognize the notion of there being something to the name, something to the design and something to style of play.

PS: Creative liberty works best when it is still within the same theme or idea while maintaining the archetype's identity mostly, largely or completely intact. It's the difference between adjusting what is there already to fit the setting and reinventing the wheel. The more history and precedent there is, the harder it is to justify reinventing the wheel. And the more resistance you'll see to the reinventing the wheel, specially when it negatively affects the class/job/archetype in question. And yes, a sword&magic hybrid forced to be buffbot with mezzer thrown in is negatively affecting the class/job/archetype. Easy invites and inflated value do not a good class make.

PPS: Try to listen or read on what I suggest be done before you fly off your handle over me wanting to hurt the iteration of RDM you cling to so dearly. If you don't understand something, feel free to ask.

cidbahamut

07-30-2011, 01:46 PM

Reading selectively were we? I actually have little problem with our current debuff line. The actual issues lie more with mobs themselves or game quirks that allow things that shouldn't be possible.
Sounds like you're imposing your play style on others and stuff. You know, like you and your crowd keep accusing of everyone who disagrees with them.

Duelle

07-30-2011, 01:59 PM

Sounds like you're imposing your play style on others and stuff. You know, like you and your crowd keep accusing of everyone who disagrees with them.Because terrain exploits and oversights in mechanics are so legit, right? Just like wall glitching AV was so legit.

To the trolls: Can we stop trying to derail the thread and get back to the OP's main idea?

cidbahamut

07-30-2011, 02:20 PM

Fixing bugs and crappy AI is not the same thing as saying "nuh uh, you shouldn't be able to solo stuff because it's supposed to be hard and because I said so."

You also need to stop referring to people as trolls simply because they disagree with you.

TybudX

07-30-2011, 02:31 PM

No, what I see is someone willing to flip everyone the bird just because they think they're right. Your excuse? MMO evolution?

What I see is SE flipping you the bird. Hint: it's called a hint. Get one.

Because terrain exploits and oversights in mechanics are so legit, right?

Pinning aside, have you ever actually played RDM? I mean, like I have played RDM? Because a) face tanking shit *cough*fastcast*cough*mdt/pdt*cough* and kite/nuking shit *cough*fastcast*cough* hardly seems like an oversight to me; and b) no combat traits, no good WSs, and access only to typically universal Haste gear *cough*dusk*cough*. Totally an oversight. For 6 years. *cough*

Duelle

07-30-2011, 03:01 PM

You also need to stop referring to people as trolls simply because they disagree with you.Coming into a RDM melee thread, starting to tell us we're doing it wrong, that we have no right to want or ask for melee updates, inferring success in outside the game from one's inability to bend over to a community misconception that the developers have yet done nothing about, and accusing us of wanting to waste developer time is not trolling?

Seriously, you just gave me a flashback to a ret paladin thread from four years ago.

Because a) face tanking shit *cough*fastcast*cough*mdt/pdt*cough* and kite/nuking shit *cough*fastcast*cough* hardly seems like an oversight to meKite and nuke isn't the oversight (though overly lame, IMO). Face tanking by stacking PDT/MDT isn't it either (not that face tanking should be anything special and should be more standard procedure for anyone fighting a mob).

Soloing what were endgame bosses back then is what were the oversights. And made even worse when certain individuals started to sell that as a feature of RDM, and was equally used to tell us to shut up and cast refresh because with enough gear, knowing what paths to exploit and a bed pan on our chairs, we could solo the sky gods and ash dragon; and as such we should never have the privilege of standing in the front lines or wanting to swing our swords or be more than refresh bots. Again, under anyone with an ounce of sense, that would have been nerfed to the ground within hours of being discovered, opening other channels and possibilities for growth.

b) no combat traits, no good WSs, and access only to typically universal Haste gear *cough*dusk*cough*. Totally an oversight. For 6 years.*cough*The fan sites ignoring the melee threads during the rare interview with the developers obviously had nothing to do with it. The fact that melee was only brought up ONCE since the game launched (to a developer team that was still sore over the Avesta videos) also had nothing to do with it, amirite?

On the topic of "buffing what RDM is already 'good' at", you do realize that for RDM to further grow in that direction, you'd have to turn RDM into a carbon copy of Lineage II's Prophet class, right? Single target buffs, very powerful and useful, little good for anything else, and eventually relegated to being a dual-boxer's toy on auto-follow to renew buffs on your "real" character. Is that what you really want RDM to be? To me that'd make it even less of a Red Mage than the job currently is...

Now, since the topic of a compromise was brought up, I want to take the thread in that direction as well. Granted, there's not much to compromise on our side, as we don't have much to begin with. Could still be worthwhile, but have to find enough people willing to help take this thread in that direction.

Eeek

07-30-2011, 08:58 PM

Coming into a RDM melee thread, starting to tell us we're doing it wrong, that we have no right to want or ask for melee updates, inferring success in outside the game from one's inability to bend over to a community misconception that the developers have yet done nothing about, and accusing us of wanting to waste developer time is not trolling?

No, it's not trolling. The posters who disagree with pointless melee buffs, and embrace RDM's oustanding magical capabilities, are people who have well-geared RDMs and who enjoy playing RDM. In any case, we'd be well within our right to post here even if we didn't have RDM leveled. It's not 2002 - smart players don't need to level every job to gain a deep understanding of gameplay mechanics.

Furthermore, you're vastly overstating your melee complains as a 'community misconception'. No, it's an Alla RDM Forum misconception. Everyone else in the overall community, forum posters or not, recognize that RDM enjoyed its status an exceptionally powerful mage over the years - so powerful that even SE hesitated to tweak it much as the level cap rose past 75 (and even nerfed Saboteur). And as much as you and the melee crowd may hate it, SE's vision for RDM as revealed in the Manifesto is, in general, the correct path for RDM.

Meleeing on RDM as a hobby (or against weak content) is perfectly fine - meleeing as the focus for RDM is not fine. If SE focused solely on RDM's melee 'talents', it would bring about decimation on par with the Big RNG Nerf.

Crimson_Slasher

07-30-2011, 09:13 PM

See now this is what has become of this thread at this point.

Pro-melee croud: "Let us use the swords you keep giving us!"

Counter-melee croud: "Shut up, we like being mages"

Overall standpoint stands at we want more melee prowess, but as a whole, none of us want it to be FORCED to hinder our mage side, yet those who dont see melee as having any use still come in as if we are saying death to the mage side. Now let me stop the train for a second. Why is it bad for red mage to be able to melee? So what if some players start doing it at inopertune times? Just like DDs having to learn to stay off select mobs at select times, we would do the same, but then we could place our mage gear on and offer support that way. Now back to what has been said of others about this concept. "Go ahead an melee, but id pick a sam/drg/drk/war/mnk/thf/dnc over you ever time", Well go ahead, if there are any of those jobs seeking then take em, if not, then you have two options, take a rdm whom is able to do physical/magical damage, or have dead party spaces. And while we are at it, if you feel that way, then youd better invite a full white mage, black mage, and bard, afterall, why not get the best? But if none are seaking, or if your party has three or more white mages and black mages, then that red mage who cant refresh them all at once anyway is just sitting there, slap some gear on em and put em to work.

Now onto the statement that many of us are too polite to say. WE ARE ALL PLAYING AND PAYING FOR A GAME WE ENJOY. You do not pay my or likely any of the people who oppose your view point's fees. You are entitled to your opinion as are we, but we clearly have no interest in humoring your counter melee thoughts in a melee oriented thread. If you want to say why we dont need to melee, make a thread, or collectively stuff it so we that ARE interested in melee fixes can discuss the ideas we have amonst one another. You are the drunken frat-boys stepping into an A.A. Meeting saying "Theres nothing wrong, we dont need to change anything, there is no problem!" and while you are free to think that, others do see a big problem, enough to gather together and talk about it. Stop creating a toxic environment and politely excuse yourselves to go and talk about how meleeing shouldnt be buffed for rdm, and how mage improvements would be great, do so elsewhere please, it is hindering our discussion.

And for you being too lazy to read that, In short. We dont want you disrupting our pro-melee discussion with your anti-melee sentiments, GET OUT.

Karbuncle

07-30-2011, 10:27 PM

I wonder if all the "PRo-RDM Melee" People know that FFXI RDM is the exact potency of Melee as all other FF RDMs?

That being, terrible,

You guys do know in every other Final fantasy game, the job Red Mage was a Mediocre Melee and a Mediocre Mage combo right? In FFXI you're a Mediocre Melee and a Excellent mage, In my eyes that seems like an improvement.

So stop using the "What it was in other FF Games" excuse. Because RDM in every single past game was a Mediocre "Meh Worthy" DD, just like it is in FF. If you're going to argue, don't argue that, because while you may or may not blindly ignore it, other people see it.

Edit: And I've always enjoyed a good RDM melee, but i know its not well endgame. Guess what? FFXI doesn't need another Melee DD, we have a million Melee DD, Don't condemn RDM to mediocrity by forcing it to be another DD that will never be on par with SAM or WAR. because then you get THF

RDM needs a Unique niche to fill, RDM needs a unique aspect, Melee will not be it. So stop forcing it. Enjoy your Melee for what it is, a fun tool for low-level content or messing around.

Stylin

07-30-2011, 10:43 PM

No, it's not trolling. The posters who disagree with pointless melee buffs, and embrace RDM's oustanding magical capabilities, are people who have well-geared RDMs and who enjoy playing RDM. In any case, we'd be well within our right to post here even if we didn't have RDM leveled. It's not 2002 - smart players don't need to level every job to gain a deep understanding of gameplay mechanics.

That's the single most ignorant thing I've ever heard. I bet you think you can fly a jet just because you saw True Lies.

Newsflash: Instigating and arrogance is trolling. Surely someone as smart as you think you are would realize that much.

I'd like to hear how you can rationalize that a melee buff means we'd get some kind of catastrophic nerf. If our magical side is as powerful as you claim it is one would think that buffing that any further would cause a nerf.

Hyrist

07-30-2011, 10:53 PM

Meleeing on RDM as a hobby (or against weak content) is perfectly fine - meleeing as the focus for RDM is not fine. If SE focused solely on RDM's melee 'talents', it would bring about decimation on par with the Big RNG Nerf.

Nobody's arguing for this extreme. Rather, we're arguing that the majority of the game's content is curently under that 'weak' catagory, yet Red Mage has no tools that are sufficent to taking the front lines to the benefit of the party that are not outdated or improperly scaled.

Weaker end notorious monsters should not be a no-no for RDM melee. Put bluntly, our buffing game just isn't good enough for that, and our debuffing game is kinda meh as it stands now too due to nothing to regard TP moves and little to actually enhance our damage output aside from Dia III.

It's why I call for a tie in. (I'd love to Radiate a Crit-hit rate/damage up Debuff/Buff Aura or have something equivilant on an enspell.) As when it comes to rapid re-application of debuffs, it's usually not worth it. And psudo healer should not be the default fallback (especially when you're plentiful on healing jobs).

Neisan_Quetz

07-30-2011, 11:37 PM

SE has stated they will be looking to adjusting debuffs especially on higher level monsters (no sense in having over half of our debuffs on NMs either outright resisted or having little to no effect), I'd like to hear more information on that personally.

Eeek

07-30-2011, 11:48 PM

Nobody's arguing for this extreme. Rather, we're arguing that the majority of the game's content is curently under that 'weak' catagory, yet Red Mage has no tools that are sufficent to taking the front lines to the benefit of the party that are not outdated or improperly scaled.

I disagree with you because Doombringer proved otherwise. Sure, his damage output paled in comparison to Gokku's excellent MNK, but Doom's melee RDM absolutely thrashed the damage output of the pickup BLU and WAR. RDM certainly does have the tools available for respectable melee damage - it's just that not all RDMs are willing (or capable) to dedicate the effort required to gear a melee DD well.

MNK and WAR are not excellent DDs merely because they're a MNK or WAR.

It's why I call for a tie in. (I'd love to Radiate a Crit-hit rate/damage up Debuff/Buff Aura or have something equivilant on an enspell.) As when it comes to rapid re-application of debuffs, it's usually not worth it. And psudo healer should not be the default fallback (especially when you're plentiful on healing jobs).

I dunno, Hyrist. I main-heal on RDM perfectly fine for a lot of Abyssea content. Why should my friends and I stand around in Port Jeuno waiting for a LS WHM to log on when we can instead go out on our NIN, WAR (THF for the NMs), and RDM and go build some Empyrean Weapons or complete some AF3+2 pieces? Not all of those Abyssea NMs are zomgHARD without a WHM, and for some of the more evil Abyssea NMs, I appreciate a WHM and RDM on the back line.

A bored, idle RDM is a RDM that's doin' it wrong - no matter the approach to a particular fight. And including a RDM in a party/alliance that's already too heavy on healing jobs is simply a poor choice for the party/alliance setup (unless, for example, it's a RDM/SCH focused on crowd control, nuking, and mage support).

By the way, the Aura buffs concept reminds me of a Quick Magic Job Trait - it sounds good in theory but would fail in practice. For tougher content, I absolutely will not park my RDM in close with the tanks and melees. Not even BRDs spend more time than necessary up with the tanks and melees. RDMs would only be able to provide Aura buffs on the simplest of fights, and on the tougher content, would only sap the backline's resources for questionable gains (that may not even be offset by all the damage/debuffs inflicted on the RDM). Besides, the concept of Aura buffs is a blatant clone of BRD songs.

Eeek

07-30-2011, 11:52 PM

Sira

07-31-2011, 02:29 AM

RDM certainly does have the tools available for respectable melee damage - it's just that not all RDMs are willing (or capable) to dedicate the effort required to gear a melee DD well.

this a million times, i cant count how many times i've watched joytoy rdm melee something as someone comes along and nearly one shots it with a ws, while the rdm standing there crying about how SE doesn't love rdm melee. if you seriously want to melee on a job like that, you really need to treat it that way, not a mage that can just equip a sword in their typical mage gear and say he can be a good DD. hell i've seen club melee sch or whm dish out some great numbers in and out of abyssea. on that same note, rdm can never be expected to put out the same damage a war or mnk can, in all of FF history it has never been that way and that will never change. That said i know that not all of you are looking for rdm to be the best melee DD, just something that can handle certain mobs in the "end game" without having to kite it the entire time, these people make me question if they are truly trying to melee, or just slapping a joytoy on like i mentioned earlier.

Duelle

07-31-2011, 03:41 AM

In short, we dont want you disrupting our pro-melee discussion with your anti-melee sentiments, GET OUT.Seconded.

Everyone else in the overall community, forum posters or not, recognize that RDM enjoyed its status an exceptionally powerful mage over the years - so powerful that even SE hesitated to tweak it much as the level cap rose past 75 (and even nerfed Saboteur).Refusing to nerf oversights does not a powerful class make. Inflated value through refresh does not a powerful class make. We've already gone over this, yet you don't seem to get it.

I wonder if all the "PRo-RDM Melee" People know that FFXI RDM is the exact potency of Melee as all other FF RDMs?

That being, terrible,You mean the games where a melee model involved basically hitting Attack whenever your turn came up? And somehow that didn't make a good transition into the MMO context? Color me surprised (/sarcasm). I've also gone over this, but let me state it again: certain concepts and parts of design do not translate well in MMO terms. In the case of RDM, you have a sword&magic hybrid whose melee model in past FFs was basically...hitting Attack when their turn came up. In those cases you have to give the melee aspect some depth. Hence this thread.

Presenting points that have already been argued against and debunked earlier in this thread do not make you any more correct that previously. Presenting things in an arrogant manner as if the melee camp were a bunch of ignorant peasants is both insulting and trolling. Now stop it and get out of our thread.

Aurara

07-31-2011, 04:00 AM

So you don't want to have the other side of the argument so that yours is the only one heard by the devs? I'll pass on letting the only voices that are heard are those of the melee RDM crowd who have most likely never done any sort of endgame(i.e kings, toau kings, wyrms).

Seriha

07-31-2011, 04:13 AM

RDM needs a Unique niche to fill, RDM needs a unique aspect, Melee will not be it. So stop forcing it. Enjoy your Melee for what it is, a fun tool for low-level content or messing around.

See, here's where I'm running into a snag. It's okay for RDM's magic to escalate beyond mediocrity, but not for martial aspects? This can't help but remind me of all the hypocrisy floating around whose basis is rooted in efficiency. Were things the other way around, with RDM a good melee and sub-par mage, would you be arguing against magic buffs? I mean, there are other jobs out there that would do them better. Visit the moogle! Don't waste precious dev attention on something that'd be a toy in the end.

There's a reason where, time and again, I've said RDM's current position and community perception is a sort of chicken and egg scenario. What the community has used the job for has been a result of long untouched problems. Support jobs, in general, are in short supply, so some were just able to capitalize on that shortage to ride the gravy train to their goals. We had Cure IV and Haste, same as WHMs, which was often good enough for older content. Like it or not, Refresh and Convert weren't meant solely for backline play, but they wound up helping it. Snowball those facts against old-time EXP habits chasing ITs, where come 50+, you need a few more levels on the mob, that's when RDM's martial inefficiencies started to add up (Lesser skills, lacking WS, fewer gear options). It's a giant, "No-freaking-duh!" that what eventually rose from that was a WHM-wannabe since it's almost our nature as players to try and find ways to make something work just so a job isn't wasted. Just look to all the other loljob enthusiasts. Even our curative game could be different if healing skill played a greater role in potential, much like how ACC/ATK does for melee. It's this same "grace" by SE that had SMNs scraping by in the past dishing out Cure IIIs simply because they had an MP pool.

All this happened in a time where Abyssea didn't exist, let alone level syncs, colibri, or even CoP. You could spend hours, even days LFG. The levels were long, the EXP trickled in slow. You basically did what you had to if you want to crawl toward 75. And while those days are long behind us, they did their damage in shaping conceptions that have no doubt manifested here in some fashion. It is known that SE's initial incarnation of RDM had issues that they later tweaked. This came before our NA PC launch, so very few of us will actually have first-hand experience. Some are sitting here saying SE pretty much got it right and to call it a day. Others disagree. We know they have a history of job and balance blunders, but somehow RDM is immune to those. Some say the needed attention can't be done, that it would be overpowered. Again, disagreement. Enter consideration of faith to the concept. At what point does a Red Mage stop being a Red Mage based on its evolution in the MMO field? Some fear this reality, others opt to remain ignorant for utility's sake.

In the end, I believe that what SE proposed in the vision can be achieved with a martial twist. I know it's unpopular to some, and those some will gleefully parade around behind my back rationalizing my position that I enjoy being an underdog, am seeking e-fame, or whatever issue-clouding jargon they'll spin in personal attacks to hope I, and others like me, would back down. Yet, here we are, still being "idiots" you feel entitled to "educate" while wielding the patience of a toddler. Perhaps it is your goal to simply get this thread locked, to try and brush the argument under the rug like others who've come before. It'll never go away, though, not until SE does what they need to. And if that thought makes your blood boil a little, just take a breath and relax. Believe it or not, a RDM swinging a sword in a party will not destroy FFXI.

Karbuncle

07-31-2011, 04:17 AM

Presenting points that have already been argued against and debunked earlier in this thread do not make you any more correct that previously. Presenting things in an arrogant manner as if the melee camp were a bunch of ignorant peasants is both insulting and trolling. Now stop it and get out of our thread.

Its not debunked, You just found a good enough answer to convince yourself and moved on.

In past Final Fantasy's, RDM was a Mediocre DD, It was a mage that had the capability to wield swords, something other mages did not have, It was not an expert in them either.

In FFXI, they are the same. They are Capable mages with the ability to wield combative weaponry adequately.

You can justify your want for melee prowess however you see fit, But in other peoples eyes, and apparently SE's, They done the RDM justice to their previous titles, a good mage with the Ability to wield a sword.

You can continue asking for as many boosts as you want, You have the right to want improvements to your job, I'm just pointing out you've debunked nothing, You've provided an answer good enough for yourself and other RDM melee enthusiasts.

Again, Suggest to your hearts content, But as far as i can tell, not a single useful piece of information or a single suggestion has come of this thread since the first 20 pages, at this point its just mindless bickering.

Supersun

07-31-2011, 04:56 AM

The difference was that swords were actually GOOD in those games and that 99% of what you could do as a melee entirely depended on what weapons you could equip.

In those games a sword stomped weapons like daggers and clubs pretty hard for the most part and endgame swords were pretty much the best weapons in the game.

Sure there were a few melee "Job Traits" like dual wield and two hand, but it was easy enough passing those to Rdm since every job was able to use 1-2 special abilities from other classes in FFV at least.

Outside of those your performance pretty much depended on your weapon and Rdm usually had access to some of the strongest swords.

In XI up until the level cap increase swords actually had a similar issue. Swords as a weapon had to be held back quite a bit because swords had and still do have some of the most overpowered weapons this game has ever seen aka the Joyeuse and the Ridill.

Those weapons were pretty much what made sword good before the level cap increase. They were pretty much the reason Sword's strongest WS was restricted to Vorpal Blade because anything stronger would have pretty much guaranteed swords dominance from the joyeuse and the ridill (pre-2 hand update).

The issue is now...every weapon can get their own joyeuse now while swords WSs are still as crappy as ever. I mean out of all the primary WSs that a DD job is expected to use as their primary DD WS Vorpal Blade is probably the second worst WS in the game only trailing behind Blade Jin, but ninjas have dual wield up their *** to compensate.

One part of Rdms current DD woes is that swords are just TERRIBLE. Daggers and Clubs which in other final fantasies would get stomped by swords are stomping sword in return. Yes, Almace helps some, but it would be VERY bad game design if at 99 everyone is STILL using an Almace(85) given that they've proven...easier to get then expected.

Duelle

07-31-2011, 04:57 AM

Its not debunked, You just found a good enough answer to convince yourself and moved on.

In past Final Fantasy's, RDM was a Mediocre DD, It was a mage that had the capability to wield swords, something other mages did not have, It was not an expert in them either.Nor was RDM a master of magic. Hence the sword&magic hybrid.

If you want to go into specifics, RDM was a generalist, and as such mediocre at everything. That didn't fly and will never fly in the MMO context because generalists tend to suffer horrible fates in being excluded from meaningful content or relegated to a function that was both menial and ridiculously far away from what the players wanted out of the class when they rolled it. Since the generalist approach doesn't translate well into MMOs, pieces of the hybrid have to be adjusted to make it work.

Again, Suggest to your hearts content, But as far as i can tell, not a single useful piece of information or a single suggestion has come of this thread since the first 20 pages, at this point its just mindless bickering.We're not the ones instigating the bickering. If you want to help get this thread back on course, join us in asking the trolls to leave our thread alone and bother someone else. We could then get back to discussing ideas.

Also, what Seriha said, a thousand times over.

Qkan

07-31-2011, 05:04 AM

I'm not going to read 118 pages of RDMs whining that they cannot melee well enough. All I've got to say is that for a job with so much functionality and so many abilities that allows/allowed them to become one of the strongest jobs in the game for a very long time... You should probably go talk to some other jobs that have virtually zero party support or have mediocre roles that some times made it so they were never invited or were never invited to parties pre-Abyssea.

Like DRG. Like BST. Like SCH. DNC. PLD. SMN. And even WHM. And these are just jobs off the top of my head. Yes, some of these had roles in HNM, just like RDMs refresh role here and where melee on ANY job is stupid, these jobs were always skipped until there was no other person to fill that spot and even then it was a rarity. Mind you, I'm not accounting for times when a job was the "flavor of the month" or through all the expansions where some jobs went from super-bad to "it'll do, go ahead and invite them then let's kill Colibri" (hi2u DRG).

RDM is a job that allowed people to solo things that were probably not solo'able otherwise. Okay, so they didn't hit it with a sword doing loads of damage, but that's besides the point. Wise use of spells, items, SJ abilities and spells, and gear allowed RDM to become an extremely versatile job. In short, I have zero sympathy for RDMs "demanding" a boost in their abilities when they're already an extremely potent job when played to it's fullest.

TL;DR: You all sound like whiny babies that don't know how to play RDM properly. If you want melee, go level a job that melees. RDM isn't one of them.

Karbuncle

07-31-2011, 05:05 AM

Outside of those your performance pretty much depended on your weapon and Rdm usually had access to some of the strongest swords.

RDM can still wield the strongest swords in FFXI, but exactly like past games, other jobs do it better.

The issue is now...every weapon can get their own joyeuse now while swords WSs are still as crappy as ever. I mean out of all the primary WSs that a DD job is expected to use as their primary DD WS Vorpal Blade is probably the second worst WS in the game only trailing behind Blade Jin, but ninjas have dual wield up their *** to compensate.

Just on the topic of personal Joyeuses, the Oa2x Weapons through magian trials are incredibly poor, Most of them are outparsed in all fields by simple non-magian weaponry, Only one i can think of thats actually decent is the Polearm.

One part of Rdms current DD woes is that swords are just TERRIBLE.

Then if an improvement to the Weapon Catagory swords is all you want, I don't think there'd be as much resistance. Because that would benefit multiple jobs.

If you're saying RDM with swords are terrible, I cannot agree, They are good melee on weaker enemies, and come up short on stronger ones, which i'm sure is what was intended, and why they have strong Enfeebling/Enhancing magic (Well, Strong-ish, This should really be improved)

Daggers and Clubs which in other final fantasies would get stomped by swords are stomping sword in return. Yes, Almace helps some, but it would be VERY bad game design if at 99 everyone is STILL using an Almace(85) given that they've proven...easier to get then expected.

I'd be willing to bet my character a top-geared sword WAR with Ridill would kick the sh*t out of a THF or a WHM in terms of DD on anything relevant.

Swords are weaker, But they're not that weak. so its not Swords that are the inherent problem, its RDM and its like of DD capabilities. It has Enspells, and a Modest Combat rating in sword/dagger, But it was never meant to use them on powerful content (Which is even why they did not get any exclusive weaponskills for Sword).

In my eyes, RDM was suppose to be a mage with combat prowess, a game where the original design was all jobs in a party would melee (hence Hammers, and High-D Staves), the game changed, and they decided to keep RDM where it was in prowess.

Again, Wanting RDM melee to be better is something everyone here has the right ot ask for, Only 1 stipulation if you want public support.

1) it cannot nerf any aspect of current RDM, at this point you'd be forcing your point of view on others and that is a no no

Karbuncle

07-31-2011, 05:11 AM

Nor was RDM a master of magic. Hence the sword&magic hybrid.

They are that in FFXI. But more powerful in magic than melee. Your(well maybe not yours, but someone) answer is possibly nerfing Magic to make their melee more appealing (I vaguely recall "Make it to RDM can only buff themselves")

RDM is good with a sword, however you're prowess ends when the mob reaches HNM status, Which is where your magic is suppose to take over. You have your Melee for weaker mobs, and your magic for tough mobs. any RDM should know this, and it makes perfect sense, They aren't called "Red Melee", they're called "Red Mage".

If you want to go into specifics, RDM was a generalist, and as such mediocre at everything. That didn't fly and will never fly in the MMO context because generalists tend to suffer horrible fates in being excluded from meaningful content or relegated to a function that was both menial and ridiculously far away from what the players wanted out of the class when they rolled it. Since the generalist approach doesn't translate well into MMOs, pieces of the hybrid have to be adjusted to make it work.

THey did this, By giving RDM its unique niche, Enhancing and Enfeebling better than other jobs. What needs to be done is to power up its enhancing and Enfeebling Capabilities. Swords don't need to be left in the dust (RDM still has access to a lot of Melee gear and Almace/Excalibur), But at the same time i redirect you to my above statement, as a Hybrid job they are adept at melee, and Excellent at Magic. Knowing which situation calls for which is the Hallmark of a good RDM.

You're free to ask for Melee capabilities, just so long as they don't nerf Magic capabilities, Because you wouldn't be helping RDM, you'd be condemning it and everyone who plays it as a mage.

We're not the ones instigating the bickering. If you want to help get this thread back on course, join us in asking the trolls to leave our thread alone and bother someone else. We could then get back to discussing ideas.

Frankly, You're arguing and instigating back, and in some cases, with a far harsher and irritated tone. We're adults "THEY STARTED IT" isn't working. You're just as guilty for continuing it.

Also, what Seriha said, a thousand times over.

Kay. Again i say though, Maybe seri mentioned it in this post, but I haven't seen a single good suggestion come out of this thread in dozens of pages.

What would make RDM melee good? What boosts would be worthwhile?

Hyrist

07-31-2011, 05:31 AM

What would make RDM melee good? What boosts would be worthwhile?

I'm going to sit and thow this back at you. Because this is the topic for discussion since the beginning, and instead of contributing your idea as to what would, you've been trying to knock down everyone elses.

So, honestly, think on it a while please, and think of a way you beleive would boost the party enough to make it worth while, and express the situatons you beleive this ability you create would be useful for.

I've posted several. I still beleive the Hesitation status effect idea I had earlier was a good way to address TP moves and RDM in the front lines at the same time. But, like our other debuffs, it won't be all that critical for faster paced fights that we're often allowed to melee in, even though it extents the possbility of the fights we would be allowed in, by giving RDM a utility that wasn't just straight damage.

That was taking the enfeeble approach, however. There might be an enhancing aproach (or a hybrid of both.) that could work. But for those who are disagreeing, or are worried about the risks of damage to our mage side, what we would like is the differing viewpoint being used to fuel ideas that would assist the martial aspects without damaging the backline role capibility. What is it, you think would work and for what?

Karbuncle

07-31-2011, 05:34 AM

I'm going to sit and thow this back at you. Because this is the topic for discussion since the beginning, and instead of contributing your idea as to what would, you've been trying to knock down everyone elses.

So, honestly, think on it a while please, and think of a way you beleive would boost the party enough to make it worth while, and express the situatons you beleive this ability you create would be useful for.

I've posted several. I still beleive the Hesitation status effect idea I had earlier was a good way to address TP moves and RDM in the front lines at the same time. But, like our other debuffs, it won't be all that critical for faster paced fights that we're often allowed to melee in, even though it extents the possbility of the fights we would be allowed in, by giving RDM a utility that wasn't just straight damage.

That was taking the enfeeble approach, however. There might be an enhancing aproach (or a hybrid of both.) that could work. But for those who are disagreeing, or are worried about the risks of damage to our mage side, what we would like is the differing viewpoint being used to fuel ideas that would assist the martial aspects without damaging the backline role capibility. What is it, you think would work and for what?

Seriously? I suggested MULTIPLE Improvements to Melee RDM early in this thread. Your ignorance insults me.

Go look for yourself and come back when you've educated yourself on just how much i contributed to the actual early PRODUCTIVE parts of this thread. The only suggestions I've shot down are the ones that would hinder the Mage aspect of the job.

I was suggesting buffs in this thread before you knew the Official forums existed. (Exaggeration, I know).

Hyrist

07-31-2011, 05:40 AM

Sorry, it was a generalization. I did not mean you specifically, but "You" as a representation of the anti-melee sentement.

Shoulden't have quoted you on that one.

But as you said, "I haven't seen one good idea." Is kind of insulting as well, as it either uplifts you above all others in the regards of this, or it insults even your own ideas on this topic.

Don't pose the question that we at a community have been suppling answers to this entire time.

Karbuncle

07-31-2011, 05:42 AM

Probably for the best, I've been trying to find/Quote my posts to bring them up here... But i can't find them.

Sorry, it was a generalization. I did not mean you specifically, but "You" as a representation of the anti-melee sentement.

Shoulden't have quoted you on that one.

But as you said, "I haven't seen one good idea." Is kind of insulting as well, as it either uplifts you above all others in the regards of this, or it insults even your own ideas on this topic.

Don't pose the question that we at a community have been suppling answers to this entire time.

"I haven't seen one good idea" since page ~20 or so is what i said. After that it just became people bickering and angry whining.

I acknowledge a few good ideas came from the beginning of this thread, My comment (maybe i didn't repeat it >.O) was only directed at the recent pages of this thread, which are simply mindless bickering.

If you want to get the Discussion back on topic, Honest to god, Block-list people ruining it and start brain-storming between yourselves!

I'll still try to find my original ideas.

Supersun

07-31-2011, 05:43 AM

Kay. Again i say though, Maybe seri mentioned it in this post, but I haven't seen a single good suggestion come out of this thread in dozens of pages.

What would make RDM melee good? What boosts would be worthwhile?

I try not to make a habit of making too specific of suggestions because frankly they don't do a whole lot of good. SE is smart (sorta). They can easily make their own solutions.

I'm not saying that trying to make solutions is bad, but what's important is not the idea itself, but the problem it reflects.

I tend to come from the line of thought that something shouldn't be added for the sake of nothing. Something should be added in trying to address a problem.

There are 2 types of ideas you will see on these forums.

The "Oh it would be cool if Samurai was invincible while WSing and had a move that auto stunned TP attacks"
and...
Ideas created to rectify current problems within the game.

That's a large reason my "suggestions" are rather lengthy. It's because if I was a developer what's important is not the suggestion itself, but the reason behind the suggestion. What is the suggestion trying to fix. It's why I tend to go a bit into why I'm proposing a suggestion.

I also tend to believe that the best solutions are the simplest ones. While Duelle may believe that a job revamp is in order I can't realistically see that happening. I mean the extreme would be them renaming Red Mage to Green Mage and then actually creating Red Mage correctly.

I know I've written about the ironies of Rdm melee and had a few simple solutions to help fix a lot of the issues that it currently faces that were frankly stupid to even add in the first place. That and any melee buff most people feel should come in the form of utility over raw damage.

-----

Also Karbuncle has been pretty understanding out of all the people linked here from the BG thread lol.

(didn't you make that post in another thread? Search posts that you have made by clicking your name)

Hyrist

07-31-2011, 05:49 AM

It would be good if we collected the pile of suggestions and just had a place to list them, and sift through them.

I mean there have been several, and we've discussed the ones we've like and dislikes, but never really gone and put them all together.

But here's a question for you in a more general sense. Do you support more damage increases (including gear), or some sort of utility? We kind of put these into those sort of catagories.

While I'm REALLY big in the utility camp, I've been eyeing what SE said about WS changs down the line. If we could get native elemental Weaponskills that could actually DO a fair bit of damage, I think that might calm down a bit of the uproar.

I'm trying to nudge the borders of what's viewed as 'acceptable' as far as RDM's melee mob range goes. I don't beleive it should be comparable to that of a simple 'mage who melees' as it was arctypically a hybrid job. I've no problem defaulting to magic in situations that calls for us going out of melee range at all, because of the All-range aspects of the job. I don't mind support at all, I enjoy it. But I do mind the current overall lack of usefullness for our frontlines.

Their either should be more to it than what we have, or the performance of it should be high enough to be, well, lets go ahead and say the MOST acceptable mage below BLU by a fair margin.

Karbuncle

07-31-2011, 05:50 AM

(didn't you make that post in another thread? Search posts that you have made by clicking your name)

I tried that :( it only goes as far back as like ~200 posts, and i have thousands ;;

Edit: The problem with a Pure-DD aspect of RDm in terms of Swords is that, It would have to stand up to SAM or WAR to be considered worthwhile. While some may argue (it has value like haste/etc) It would just be another cookie-cutter melee.

If RDM was to get a melee buff, I'd like it to augment their Mage aspect as well, something that powers both aspects of the job. Like Enspell III that grant some unique buff Aura or debuff to the enemy.

RDM, if receiving a Melee buff, it should focus on as you say, Utility gains, I don't want it to be simply a Pure Damage buff, because if it wasn't good enough it simply would not help. You'd end up like THF's.

Hyrist

07-31-2011, 06:04 AM

RDM, if receiving a Melee buff, it should focus on as you say, Utility gains, I don't want it to be simply a Pure Damage buff, because if it wasn't good enough it simply would not help. You'd end up like THF's.

The difference, sadly, is that we'd still offer more to the party than THF due to our mage side still being pretty capable even in the front lines. And I don't wanna knock THF down (Even though I think that job SORELY needs some help.)

So you would have them on the buff aspect. How specifically?

(I'm headded home from work, will continue this post/discussion when I return)

Supersun

07-31-2011, 06:09 AM

Thief needs a DD buff in general >.>

Greatguardian

07-31-2011, 06:17 AM

The biggest problem with RDM melee is that whatever utility you bring to the table while melee'ing has to equal or surpass the sheer utility lost by coming out of the backline if you want it to be considered worthwhile by the community at large.

Red Mage has an absolute buttload of utility on the back line, contrary to what appears to be popular belief in this thread. Losing the main/sub slots, the ability to swap gear constantly without consequences (this would severely damage Rdm's TP phase damage), and the magical aspect's distance and multi-targeting advantage is a huge deal. Being zoomed in and whacking away at one monster is a completely different perspective than overlooking a battle and reacting to multiple situations simultaneously. Engaging in melee intentionally limits the scope of one's actions.

Frankly, FFXI has plenty of jobs that are already limited in such a fashion. If you want to make Red Mage viable enough in close quarters for people to care, you may as well rename it Dancer. It would be doing just about the same thing.

Karbuncle

07-31-2011, 06:28 AM

Hmmm, How about a Slew of Job Traits/Spells that enhance their Close-Range aspect? First off:

Spells:

Ward: - Limits the Damage of Severely damaging Attacks. Works like Scherzo/Earthern Armor. Single Target. This is to help the Survivability of a RDM in combat.

Enspells III - Stronger than Enspells I/II, How about say ~45/50 Damage a hit with high Enhancing Magic.

Debuff Type:
EnBlizzard III - Reduces Enemies Magic Attack. Builds Power with each hit. Starts at MAB-5, Each hit landed Reduces it by an additional 2, Cap at -25 MAB on Enemy. Effect stays on for ~45 seconds if not hit.

EnStone III - Reduces an Enemies Defense with each hit. Lowers Defense by 3% for first hit, -1% each hit after for a total of -15% Defense down on Enemy. Effect lasts ~45 seconds if not hit.

EnWater III - Reduces an Enemies Magic defense with each hit. Lowers Magic Defense by 3 for first hit, -1 for each hit after for a total of -15 Magic Defense. Effect lasts same as above

"Buffing" Enspells

EnAero III - Grants an Evasion bonus to party members in Area of Effect. Evasion Bonus Builds up the longer the RDM is in range. Starts at +15 EVA, +3 Evasion per 15 seconds after, capping at +45 Evasion. Effect stays on for ~30 seconds if RDM leaves Area of Effect.

EnFire III - Grants an Attack bonus to party members in Area of Effect. Attack Bonus starts at +15 Attack, and builds at +3 per 15 seconds after, Capping at +45 Attack. Effect stays similar to EnAero

EnThunder III - Grants an Accuracy Bonus to party members in Area of Effect. Similar buffs to the above.

----------------------------------

This gives bonuses to a lot of aspects of Fights. 1 increases Magical damage on the enemy, another Raises your parties attack prowess and your own, others Raise your parties survivability (reducing enemy Magic attack). It adds another aspect to Enspells and you get their full benefit from Melee range

...

Now we need a small buff to RDM DD capabilities too, to make it worthwhile in combat a bit more... Like the following.

-------------------------------------------

Job traits

JT 1
Increases your Accuracy and Attack while enspells are active.
RDM-30/50/70/90
Increases Accuracy By 7, Attack by 7. +7 each level after for a total of +28Acc/Atk with Enspells.

JT-2
Grants bonus to Magic Defense to parties members in range based on Current Enspell.
RDM:25/50/75/99
Grants +5MDB per stage.
*Bonus is based on which the Element is Strong too... I.E Enwater raises Fire Defense, Enthunder waises Water Defense, so you're not stucking using Enfire on a mob because its Attacks are firebased.

---------------------------------------

These are just icing on the cake, the first will help improve where RDMs lack (Acc/atk Values), and the second helps your party if you're in range.

Now for Job Abilities. IDK where to go from here, But i'll try my best.

--------------------------------

Job Abilities

JA-1
Enhancing the Potency of your next Enspell. (including buffs/debuffs for Teir III's).
Recast: 5min
Duration: Until spell wears off.
*increaes potency of Buffs/debuffs by 25%, and Damage by 25%. I.E Attack+45 from Enfire III would gain 25% boost, meaning it would gain an additional ~11 attack.

-The balance in this is that if you switch Enspells, You won't keep the bonus, So while you can keep 1 bonus up indefinitely, Switching enspells will cause you to lose this buff.

I got nothing more :X im tapped out.

Supersun

07-31-2011, 06:30 AM

I could still create a job or 2 that adds utility to the front line that dancer thematically doesn't cover.

Hyrist

07-31-2011, 07:34 AM

Red Mage has an absolute buttload of utility on the back line, contrary to what appears to be popular belief in this thread. Losing the main/sub slots, the ability to swap gear constantly without consequences (this would severely damage Rdm's TP phase damage), and the magical aspect's distance and multi-targeting advantage is a huge deal. Being zoomed in and whacking away at one monster is a completely different perspective than overlooking a battle and reacting to multiple situations simultaneously. Engaging in melee intentionally limits the scope of one's actions.

Let's break these down because I severely disagree here.

1. Losing the main/sub slots

The only valid concerns here is nuking damage and cure potency. Accuracy on any monster you would pull your swords out is just not a concern at all. If you're meleeing in general, Curing is a secondary concern and Nuking is a far off concern as even our current s--- DPS trumps our nuking game anywhere outside of abyssea.

2. The ability to swap gear constantly without consequences (this would severely damage Rdm's TP phase damage)

Casting Alone hampers our TP phase damage, what gear we wear for our spells specifically has no bearing comparatively. The impact your talking about would be the same impact a DPS has for swapping gear into their damage reduction/ws, etc sets. And again, even as that hurts us personally in the DPS department, that has no bearing to our overall support as a party as, if we're casting, we're obviously supporting the party in other ways that we feel outweighs the cost to our DPS.

The more valid concern here is the loss of Idle gear. But again, we're running into a debate of casting loads during situations RDM would be meleeing anyways or how to stretch the normal bounds of RDM's acceptance into melee. These situations, the MP burden is relatively low (and at an all-time low given the effects of AF3+2 on top of Composure.) and the party likely benefits more from a more aggressive approach to begin with.

Even with me focusing primarily on procs inside Dynamis, I still have enough MP to work on procs between Tping (a separate mob that's been proced, mind you) to match my convert cycle.

3.The magical aspect's distance and multi-targetting.

This has more to do with practice than it does 'scope'. You can toggle off Target Lock if you're really concerned. Keeping track of your positioning in context to pops and your party, and being pro-active when it comes to link management offsets this to the point of it being non-existent.

There are better concerns to raise about offsetting our back-line utility by creating a front-line ones. These ones you seem to refer to seem to relate mainly to monsters on a difficulty or tedium level I likely would not recommend melee on anyways.

But in the interest of keeping this conversation fair, let me share with you some concerns I have about loss of utility form front to back line.

Let's start with the multi-targeting issue and shift the complaint slightly.

I've a concern about debuffing monsters that die in quick succession. Farming in Dynamis, I occasionally pull off of a monster to debuff one that is being held to the side, just for better convinence of targeting (especially if I'm going for procs) If you were holding targets for players to come in on and were trying to insure specific debufffs for each target, it could get a bit difficult, and tedious to have to manually target away from your main target each time. I still do so when I find it convenient, but I do still withdraw if the list of debuffs on the specific Slept mob tend to be extensive. However this isn't often.

The other one I see is a loss of subjob usage, which I think is one we just have to bite and take if we choose to do so. Honestly, I can still take to the front as a RDM/BLM or a RDM/SCH, I just have to acknowledge it won't be as high of a damage/often of a utility. It's the same kind of hit I take if I go /dnc to help with JA procs in Dynamis and accept the loss of Sleepga/AoE Stoneskin/Regen as well as Aspir. It's a situational choice.

The cost of this wouldn't feel so hard either way if we had EX weapon-skills natively on Sword, which I still believe we should have.

Let's see... other problems.

I often hear about troublesome debuffs we encounter while in the front lines. I'd say the worst of these I've really run across are mute and paralyze. Plague isn't so big because our TP is more of a skillchain utility we have resist petrify (which actually does work if you put up the appropriate barspells) silence can be removed by echo-drops or healing waltz if you're /dnc, and Curse can almost be outright ignored depending on it's potency (things that give severe curse are in my no melee department.) and doom, which again is a usually too big for my blade anyways can be screened.

Mute, however, just kinda outright prevents your casting and I don't like it. Though, knowing to cycle your buffs out well before the fight beings and taking a step back if you must to reapply them really lessens the impact on this. /DNC lets you take the TP and help with curing load even while muted as well as give you more general utility.

Paralyze though is a b--ch. It's the worse status effect a RDM can have period. A silence you can remove can be echo dropped, mute can be anticipated and worked around but trying to remedy a paralyze is hell as it effects everything short of our WSes which are lightweight to begin with, and paralyze hurts our ability to have TP ready to open skill-chains with. I'll Barblizzard/Barparalyze to cut down the number of times/duration of how I'm paralyzed, but a monster that spams it might not be worth it even if it is easy.

I think the only real big one you need to worry about generally classifies it as a no-no anyways, and that's heavy AoE damage that ignores shadows. Bombs and things that self destruct usually don't count, because we have a very potent, long duration Barfire and that pretty much guarantees you're going to resist it. Spike effects don't concern a RDM nearly as much as another melee due to Phalanx and the appropriate bar-element to further cut damage/effect proc. I've got no problem meleeing soulflayers in Nyzul, even back at 75, due to how less frequently I got paralyzed on them compared to other melees (and those things NEED to die asap).

I think that about covers it for my concerns and how I currently regard them. I don't believe our melee side should really be focused on making up for the shortcomings of our max-capacity back-line performance, because I don't beleive our max capacity back line performance is really utilized in anything except heavy HNM/Boss fights, and I don't believe we should melee then.

Honestly, I believe our front-line utility should be focused more along the lines of what we could offer when some of our back-line tools or capabilities just isn't useful or useful enough compared to other jobs that can do better for the situation.

Which really makes me think about our buffing game, especially in terms of increasing the effectiveness of the party around us better beyond simply haste/refresh.

Karbuncle

07-31-2011, 07:42 AM

In case it was missed..

Hyrist

07-31-2011, 07:57 AM

How about a Slew of Job Traits/Spells that enhance their Close-Range aspect?

I like where you go with this for some of it, but I think we should really sit and decide if we want to go buffing or debuffing with this.

Buffing steps on Aura which I'm not sure we'll get, but, if they support the idea of an Aura Spell JA, I suppose this can work to, in which case, buffing Enspells are a go.

Examples of a full Enspell Buffset:

Fire - Attack or Double Attack
Water - Magic Resistance or MDB
Thunder - Accuracy or Critical Hit Rate/Damage
Stone - Defense or Physical Damage Taken %
Aero - Evasion or Subtle Blow
Blizzard - Magical Accuracy or Magic Attack Bonus

For the Debuff Route
Fire - Magic Defense Down or Magic Accuracy Down
Water Attack Down or Physical Damage Down (%)
Thunder - Magic Resistance Down/Magical Damage Received +%
Stone - Accuracy Down or Enemy Critical Rate down
Aero - Defense Down, Physical Damage received +%
Blizzard - Evasion down, Critical Hit rate received +%

There's some of my ideas as status effects that would be good as a debuff or buff for enspells, but I think we really should just stick to one line or the other.

I don't think we should receive any further melee traits as far as melee goes, aside from scaling adjustments on the amount of accuracy we receive with Composure. (perhaps maybe +20-25 by level 99) This is mainly keeping in mind what we could do with our en-spells.

Another route about this is listed on the mage section. The "Aura" spell JA I mentioned there earlier could be paired with more melee buffs that could benefit us as well. That might lower the threshold of what sort of performance threshold we might additionally need to get utility wise for to justify expanding our Melee capable areas and solidifying the ones we can melee at more.

Seriha

07-31-2011, 08:14 AM

Kay. Again i say though, Maybe seri mentioned it in this post, but I haven't seen a single good suggestion come out of this thread in dozens of pages.

Can't say I blame you for missing things, not that much has been said lately aside from the rhetoric. Bluntly, a lot of the ideas probably got tapped out earlier in the thread. More of my initial postings covered the collective issues plaguing the job. Some things people have brought have been from left field. Others are building on what's been established, either on RDM itself (like doing more with Enspells) or referencing things other jobs do and giving it a RDM twist.

While I have read the magic thread, I haven't hopped in yet for a couple reasons. First was to ultimately see what may come of it early on. Second was a mix of RL activities splitting my focus. That said, I've long since been for a tiered trait to extend enhancing magic durations, not so much potencies with nudging the RDM into doing a little more for it. Debuffs were also brought up in a similar manner. Here and elsewhere I've said that I never want Haste II to hit RDM as a spell. I can understand the benefit of it, yes, but individually it puts a strain on the direction I've been shooting for on the job.

When I say things like melee can be integrated into improved enhancing and enfeebling, it takes me back to an old idea I had shortly after the WHM update where we found their cures could later apply to divine magic potency. My spin on it was pretty simple, taking one of two stances, landing an enspell builds toward a pool of points you can use to tap into various spells depending on the stance you chose. The offensive flavor would highlight nukes and debuffs while the defensive would improve the potency and durations of buffs. I fully intended for this to grow with us as we leveled, the beginning iterations showing up around level 30, the second at 50, and the third at 70. Now that we're beyond that, though, the numbers I'd initially conceptualized could be tweaked to include level 90 or beyond. In either case, the max level of application could allow for a 20% Haste spell that'd last 6 minutes without gear/composure or a nuke rivaling that of staves in both accuracy and damage. The only complaints I ever received on this concept? The back wouldn't benefit. Tough.

As is, the above would take nothing away from the RDM of now. I'm not really interested in taking away from the mage side of things, either, outside of frequently cited exploits that over-exaggerate power. Once we flesh out our T4 nukes, I'd pretty much call us done on basic black magic for a 99 cap. People still baww over Cure V, but like a Haste II, I don't want it because it risks repeating our days prior to Abyssea. I can acknowledge the need for some kind of curative supplement, however, and instead favor that approach to lie in either enhanced damage mitigation (like a literal -DT% spell) or a more potent regen that can act as a steady stream of cure 2s or 3s depending on the last damage you'd received. It allows a greater synergy with other healing jobs, where I'm sure we've all too commonly seen wasted MP spent on cures trying to save a damaged party member.

Enfeebling is still a pretty big open book, though. We've even had a thread on it devoted specifically. Looking around to other jobs, it's not hard to see BLU has a wider variety of debuffs, though, some we don't have access to while others can inflict multiple at once (both in terms of number of debuffs and targets) or even do damage on top. I'm more than aware that BLUs aren't typically called up for this role, but that's for reasons similar to RDM's own debuffs often either not being "needed" or having difficulty landing for their intended effect. Regardless, one of the more popular spells that came up during that thread was one that could literally adjust the target's level. From the statistical standpoint, you could easily call it a universal stat down. The big bonus, though, and something that other debuffs just don't do right now, is actually step into the level correction side of various formula. Another possible bonus in manipulating a monster's level is that it could also inhibit the use of certain TP moves, such as if a mob like Apadamak managed to level up, we'd have a means to counter its access to Fulmination beyond stuns. More passively, bumping a THF mob down so it couldn't have Evasion Bonus V or something would help every physical DD trying to land swings.

In the end, though, it's all about MP. Yes, RDM is a job that boasts a high personal longevity, but all that can go to crap if you're put in a situation where your party members aren't up to speed. We know the back has its advantages, and among them is better MP regeneration. Anyone who's ever been in these taxing situations knows that trying to swing on top would be suicide. This isn't every situation, though. Sometimes our party layouts can allow for more freedoms. Those with solid skills would have no difficulty keeping things running smoothly. It is in these situations where if something can be gained by stepping up, a good RDM should. We're just in the predicament where that kind of "good RDM" doesn't exist in enough commonality for people to have faith. And yes, I place that issue solely in SE's hands because numbers inspire opinions, not the other way around. We can change our opinions, but we can't change the numbers.

cidbahamut

07-31-2011, 08:33 AM

Supersun

07-31-2011, 08:39 AM

This is incorrect. Your PDT, MDT and max MND sets all take a significant hit by locking down those slots.

Is there even a single monster in this game that you need the weapon/shield slot to max dMnd on anyway?

I don't know of any monsters that have outrageous mind like Kirin has Int.

cidbahamut

07-31-2011, 08:47 AM

I don't know of any, but then I haven't been able to find reliable data on most mobs' stats.

Regardless, to say that locking those slots only affects nuking damage and cure potency is still false.

Doombringer

07-31-2011, 09:38 AM

In case it was missed..

i'm not even gonna reply to the suggestions cuz i got a thing to do in a few minutes and i can't do more than skim it, but i feel it needs to be said..

thanks for the first on topic post in 100 pages...

now comon people.. i'm out of popcorn. so quit shouting the same 2 rephrased arguments at each other and start brainstorming.

i want 5 proposals on my desk by monday >.>

Greatguardian

07-31-2011, 09:43 AM

Let's break these down because I severely disagree here.

1. Losing the main/sub slots

The only valid concerns here is nuking damage and cure potency. Accuracy on any monster you would pull your swords out is just not a concern at all. If you're meleeing in general, Curing is a secondary concern and Nuking is a far off concern as even our current s--- DPS trumps our nuking game anywhere outside of abyssea.

2. The ability to swap gear constantly without consequences (this would severely damage Rdm's TP phase damage)

Casting Alone hampers our TP phase damage, what gear we wear for our spells specifically has no bearing comparatively. The impact your talking about would be the same impact a DPS has for swapping gear into their damage reduction/ws, etc sets. And again, even as that hurts us personally in the DPS department, that has no bearing to our overall support as a party as, if we're casting, we're obviously supporting the party in other ways that we feel outweighs the cost to our DPS.

The more valid concern here is the loss of Idle gear. But again, we're running into a debate of casting loads during situations RDM would be meleeing anyways or how to stretch the normal bounds of RDM's acceptance into melee. These situations, the MP burden is relatively low (and at an all-time low given the effects of AF3+2 on top of Composure.) and the party likely benefits more from a more aggressive approach to begin with.

Even with me focusing primarily on procs inside Dynamis, I still have enough MP to work on procs between Tping (a separate mob that's been proced, mind you) to match my convert cycle.

3.The magical aspect's distance and multi-targetting.

This has more to do with practice than it does 'scope'. You can toggle off Target Lock if you're really concerned. Keeping track of your positioning in context to pops and your party, and being pro-active when it comes to link management offsets this to the point of it being non-existent.

There are better concerns to raise about offsetting our back-line utility by creating a front-line ones. These ones you seem to refer to seem to relate mainly to monsters on a difficulty or tedium level I likely would not recommend melee on anyways.

But in the interest of keeping this conversation fair, let me share with you some concerns I have about loss of utility form front to back line.

Let's start with the multi-targeting issue and shift the complaint slightly.

I've a concern about debuffing monsters that die in quick succession. Farming in Dynamis, I occasionally pull off of a monster to debuff one that is being held to the side, just for better convinence of targeting (especially if I'm going for procs) If you were holding targets for players to come in on and were trying to insure specific debufffs for each target, it could get a bit difficult, and tedious to have to manually target away from your main target each time. I still do so when I find it convenient, but I do still withdraw if the list of debuffs on the specific Slept mob tend to be extensive. However this isn't often.

The other one I see is a loss of subjob usage, which I think is one we just have to bite and take if we choose to do so. Honestly, I can still take to the front as a RDM/BLM or a RDM/SCH, I just have to acknowledge it won't be as high of a damage/often of a utility. It's the same kind of hit I take if I go /dnc to help with JA procs in Dynamis and accept the loss of Sleepga/AoE Stoneskin/Regen as well as Aspir. It's a situational choice.

The cost of this wouldn't feel so hard either way if we had EX weapon-skills natively on Sword, which I still believe we should have.

Let's see... other problems.

I often hear about troublesome debuffs we encounter while in the front lines. I'd say the worst of these I've really run across are mute and paralyze. Plague isn't so big because our TP is more of a skillchain utility we have resist petrify (which actually does work if you put up the appropriate barspells) silence can be removed by echo-drops or healing waltz if you're /dnc, and Curse can almost be outright ignored depending on it's potency (things that give severe curse are in my no melee department.) and doom, which again is a usually too big for my blade anyways can be screened.

Mute, however, just kinda outright prevents your casting and I don't like it. Though, knowing to cycle your buffs out well before the fight beings and taking a step back if you must to reapply them really lessens the impact on this. /DNC lets you take the TP and help with curing load even while muted as well as give you more general utility.

Paralyze though is a b--ch. It's the worse status effect a RDM can have period. A silence you can remove can be echo dropped, mute can be anticipated and worked around but trying to remedy a paralyze is hell as it effects everything short of our WSes which are lightweight to begin with, and paralyze hurts our ability to have TP ready to open skill-chains with. I'll Barblizzard/Barparalyze to cut down the number of times/duration of how I'm paralyzed, but a monster that spams it might not be worth it even if it is easy.

I think the only real big one you need to worry about generally classifies it as a no-no anyways, and that's heavy AoE damage that ignores shadows. Bombs and things that self destruct usually don't count, because we have a very potent, long duration Barfire and that pretty much guarantees you're going to resist it. Spike effects don't concern a RDM nearly as much as another melee due to Phalanx and the appropriate bar-element to further cut damage/effect proc. I've got no problem meleeing soulflayers in Nyzul, even back at 75, due to how less frequently I got paralyzed on them compared to other melees (and those things NEED to die asap).

I think that about covers it for my concerns and how I currently regard them. I don't believe our melee side should really be focused on making up for the shortcomings of our max-capacity back-line performance, because I don't beleive our max capacity back line performance is really utilized in anything except heavy HNM/Boss fights, and I don't believe we should melee then.

Honestly, I believe our front-line utility should be focused more along the lines of what we could offer when some of our back-line tools or capabilities just isn't useful or useful enough compared to other jobs that can do better for the situation.

Which really makes me think about our buffing game, especially in terms of increasing the effectiveness of the party around us better beyond simply haste/refresh.

1) You're either doing it wrong, or don't know what you're talking about if those are the only things you are gaining from your Main/Sub slots. Not trolling. Not joking. Magic Accuracy, PDT, MDT/MDB, dMND, hMP, and Refresh say hi.

2) A Red mage swapping to PDT gear is like a DD swapping into PDT gear. A Red Mage casting is nothing like a DD swapping to PDT gear. Casting eats away at the overall ability to deal damage, yes, but that is not the point. When you don't have to worry about TP phase damage, you can idle in whatever the hell you want. Refresh, PDT, MDT, swap at will with no loss to yourself because you swap for the appropriate actions regardless. When you have an automatically occurring action like a TP swing, you lose the ability to both idle/swap to whatever you want and maintain optimum (lol) damage.

You also need to keep in mind that none of you melee buffs even seem to want the same thing. Whether it's Rdm melee being viable on weak things (it already is), or Rdm Melee being as/more powerful than the Magic side (Duelle), or nerfing Rdm Magic to make the class more "balanced" (Duelle), or making Rdm Melee on-par with real DDs that don't have Rdm's nuking, healing, buffing, and debuffing prowess.

Not everyone here is talking about making Rdm into Dancer. Which is pretty much what you're talking about here. A Red Mage that sits there and attacks things with swords with barely a backup healing and/or basic support casting role is essentially a Waltzing dancer using Haste Samba. Oh wait, no, it's even less effective than that (sup JA haste).

The less you cast as a melee'ing Red Mage, the more you really ought to just be playing a Melee class. If you actually want to make melee'ing viable on a Mage class, you are going to have to find a way to melee while keeping up the same casting load as a backline Red Mage. Frankly, there is no amount of melee DPS that is going to make up for the casting loss. Ever. If I needed a DD, I'd get a DD. If I wanted someone with basic backup magical ability to swing swords at a monster all day, I'd invite a Blue Mage. Red Mage is a caster. The idea, if you insist on forcing the topic, is to melee while still doing that casting. Not to replace it.

3) If a monster is using spikes, and the White Mage is not a brain dead troglodyte, everyone is going to have Barblizzara at a potency which exceeds Red Mage's native Barblizzard.

If a Red Mage is not utilizing 100% of their time/MP/casting pool at all times, HNM or not, they're being lazy as hell. Is it okay to be lazy sometimes? Sure. But that doesn't mean that Red Mage will only ever bother being active on HNMs. Red Mage melee is already viable on anything below EM level. No one here is saying that it isn't. Certain people do seem to want Rdm to be melee'ing on big NMs, or HNMs, so you're wasting your breath here.

I absolutely do not see the point in you quoting and "refuting" posts that are neither directed towards you, nor towards what you seem to want/believe of Red Mage. In case no one here is really "getting it", actually read the content of Duelle's posts and you'll see why so many Mage-type Rdms are upset with the flow of this thread.

Hyrist

07-31-2011, 09:56 AM

This is incorrect. Your PDT, MDT and max MND sets all take a significant hit by locking down those slots.
Now I know you don't pay attention.

1. DMnd is reached on vast majority of fodder mobs before even touching main/sub slots, it's the exact same argument as for staves.

2. RDM at this point is a minimum hate job, which means your arguments for PDT and MDT are reduced to monsters who AoE a significant amount of damage. Read the full post, I regard this issue when it comes to monsters who can deliver a truck ton of AoE damage. (as in for, if it can, you're likely not going to melee it anyways. Thus, it's overkill just like elemental staves for M.Acc.)

I mean, add them to your personal list if you want to nitpick THAT much. But they're just as moot if not more in the described situations. At least Cure Potency and Nuking damage have a clear, measurable contribution increase even in fast fights. Hitting a vague stat cap on a potency that may or may not even see it's full effect put to use in the fight is not, especially for quick fights.

And if you TRULY wish to nitpick, NOTHING prevents you from taking the hit in TP gain to swap into a PDT MDT or Full MND set, or any other weapon combination if you feel it's worth the loss. That is entirely up to your discretion.

Greatguardian

07-31-2011, 11:16 AM

1) You're currently the only Rdm Melee advocate talking about making Rdmelee viable on fodder mobs. This is probably because everyone else here knows that it already is. No one gives a flying crap about fodder mobs.

2) Seriously? Red Mage? Minimum hate job? Christ, I'm hard pressed to find a time when I'm not capping Enmity on Red Mage on anything alive more than 60 seconds. The only thing I'm actually macroing Enmity- into is Cures, and those are hardly the bulk of my casting.

Some of you guys really make me feel like your disgust for Magical Red Mage stems from the fact that you literally just sit there and Haste, Refresh, and Cure over and over. I know Duelle seems to refer to anything non-melee as "Cure botting" or "Refresh/Haste spamming like a robot". This rendition of "Red Mage" is absolutely nothing like the Red Mage that myself, that Aurara, that Eek, that Cid, that Karbuncle, and that every other high-end Magical Red Mage in here knows how to play.

Supersun

07-31-2011, 12:17 PM

He's not the only one that believes that Rdm should be able to melee on non HNM mobs. "Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses" Has been a fairly common motto for a while now.

The issue is that for fodder, and by fodder here I mean non HNM level stuff, a good portion of our arsenal is rendered unnecessary. As long as you have that white mage all of our defensive spells, especially all our our non Dia III enfeebles, don't mean jack ****.

You might say that you are lightening the white mages MP load, but be realistic. If your defensive spells are really going to be the difference between victory and defeat I can guarantee you that you have bigger issues with your set-up.

I mean list the spells that you will realistically use to actually contribute to the offensive side of things. Haste, Refresh, Dia III? I missing anything? Maybe dumping some nukes before a convert? Sure if you are in abyssea nuking might be viable, but outside where even Blms are laughed at as a DD until they fix nukes outrageous MP cost melee is infinitely more efficient then nuking.

I know how to play the never stop casting game. I also know that besides the Haste/Refresh botting 99% of that game is completely pointless on 99% of mobs because it's pretty much all defensive in nature on monsters that you would almost have to try to die on if you have a whm.

Also, everyone can easily cap enmity in under 60 secs in abyssea.

Edit: Did you really just say that Haste Samba is better then the spell haste. 15 > 10 and spell haste > JA haste until it's actually possible to cap spell haste outside of soul voice.

Seriously, Drks would like a word with you if you think JA haste is better. Probably misread what you meant though.

Greatguardian

07-31-2011, 12:48 PM

Magic Haste is so unbelievably hard to find. I mean, like, there's totally never going to be anyone else capable of casting magical Haste around when a Red Mage is on the front lines meleeing with only basic support spells. 10% JA Haste is infinitely better than a redundant 15% Magic Haste in any scenario where someone else is perfectly capable of giving people Haste spell. I don't see anyone here at all advocating a 5 DD + 1 RdMelee setup where the RdMelee is only doing backup heals with a severely reduced spell load.

Same reason Summoner's Hastega is only good for conserving MP.

Honestly, I think you highly underestimate Red Mage's nuking and situational control capabilities. It doesn't require Abyssean demigod-mode in order to be decent. We've had this conversation before, and the only thing that came of it was it becoming abundantly clear who had the better nuke set.

Calling the difference between Slow 1 and Slow 2 negligible is ignorant at best. Slow eliminates entire potential attack rounds, and significantly decreases potential damage taken over time. Am I going to really stress over Slow2'ing every monster in an EXP scenario where things die in 10 seconds? Naw. But if I'm fighting a low-end NM, or an IT monster, is it worth the time and MP to cast? Definitely.

Finally, is it that hard to grasp the concept that Red Mage is already a viable melee on total crap fodder mobs that nobody cares about? When a Rdm has gear that isn't complete and utter crap, they can DD circles around Pickup Gimps (Doom proved this). You don't need to adjust Red Mage to make melee'ing viable on fodder because it already is. It simply isn't viable on anything above EM-T level. We've only said that a few dozen times now.

Edit: Dark Knight is the only job in the game that can cap JA Haste. They are unbelievably broken from a Haste perspective and have nothing to complain about in that department. Don't confuse the whining of the craptastic masses who are only concerned about their lack of Critical Hit WS in Abyssea because they're too crap tier to ever move beyond easy-mode content with the legitimate problems that the Dark Knight job faces (Yes, it has some. Haste isn't one of them.)

TybudX

07-31-2011, 02:02 PM

The issue is that for fodder, and by fodder here I mean non HNM level stuff, a good portion of our arsenal is rendered unnecessary. As long as you have that white mage all of our defensive spells, especially all our our non Dia III enfeebles, don't mean jack ****.

Let me get this straight, you want RDM melee to be good enough that they will be invited to a party when similar buffs/debuffs are already present?

...

I'm not going to explain why people are laughing at you. You are using the exact same logic as Dallas as to why he thinks melee SMN is teh awesum.

If you want to go into specifics, RDM was a generalist, and as such mediocre at everything. That didn't fly and will never fly in the MMO context because generalists tend to suffer horrible fates in being excluded from meaningful content or relegated to a function that was both menial and ridiculously far away from what the players wanted out of the class when they rolled it. Since the generalist approach doesn't translate well into MMOs, pieces of the hybrid have to be adjusted to make it work.

You are absolutely correct. I'm pretty sure this is why SE made RDM extremely good at everything... except melee. Also, not quoting one of your posts again, but because you repeatedly bring it up:

Stop insinuating that RDMs were only capable of soloing because of cheesy tactics and oversight in game design. RDMs are/were good/better at soloing (than other jobs) because of Fast Cast, and to a lesser extent Enspells, and because of access to a wide variety of gear. Referring to solos that are possible because somebody has movement speed (not job specific) and a DoT spell or JA (anybody with a support job) as part of your argument makes you sound like you have never actually played RDM before, at least not in anything close to it's full capacity.

I'm going to sit and thow this back at you. Because this is the topic for discussion since the beginning, and instead of contributing your idea as to what would, you've been trying to knock down everyone elses.

Speaking in the general sense, and as somebody who doesn't typically say things like "I told you so". I got into an argument about RDM melee a few years back on the Alla forums and suggested that Quick Magic (like in T.O., Conserve RT or some such) would probably be the biggest improvement RDM could get for it's melee improvement due to it being an outright % increase in available TP phase time. I even showed math for it. Of course, not being an outright increase in att/acc/enspells/ja:sordzaretehawsum, I got rated into the ground. The pro-RDM melee crowd can go *** themselves if people like you are the best they have to show for themselves.

Supersun

07-31-2011, 03:06 PM

Hyrist

07-31-2011, 03:25 PM

Guardian's already expressed his opinion and he's fine for it. We're never going to convince each other of the stance and attempting to do so detracts away from the point of the thread. Please find another thread to argue your points at Great, they'll find no reception here, where the concepts to discuss the tie ins that would make it more functional in the front lines are being made.

I stoutly do not believe the solution to the problem of RDM's frontline performance is leveling another job. I level another job to play that job on it's own merits, merits that fit with it's archtype. And I am far from alone in this sentiment as illustrated by many here.

"Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses" has been a mantra of Red Mages since pretty much it's inception in FF1. And it's a subject you cannot simply shout down by having the more stubborn opinion. SE would be doing a disservice to a good number of it's RDM player-base if it ignores it completely, although, I will acknowledge that it would be a disservice to a greater number if it were to outwardly harm it's magical capabilities as a trade off. But there is NOTHING stating that you must melee, which, given the MMO common wisdom of Minmaxing even a generalist job, is what leads to the opinion that you 'shouldn't'.

TybudX

07-31-2011, 05:36 PM

"Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses" has been a mantra of Red Mages since pretty much it's inception in FF1

As long as we're sticking to that manual, we should also abolish 14 jobs, real time combat, and being able to pan our cameras to the far right of our characters during combat. You know, cause a 25 year old game said so.

Duelle

07-31-2011, 05:54 PM

RDM is good with a sword, however you're prowess ends when the mob reaches HNM status, Which is where your magic is suppose to take over. You have your Melee for weaker mobs, and your magic for tough mobs. any RDM should know this, and it makes perfect sense, They aren't called "Red Melee", they're called "Red Mage".You're falling back on the joke that is the "mage" argument. I find it difficult to take you seriously when you start off with that.
THey did this, By giving RDM its unique niche, Enhancing and Enfeebling better than other jobs. What needs to be done is to power up its enhancing and Enfeebling Capabilities.AKA taking the job in an entirely different direction from what is dictated by its archetype (really, the sword&magic character forced into mezzer/buffbot). Making magic and melee both viable options for the hybrid in question would have prevented the mess that broke out between both camps from happening in the first place. Could have called the job something other than Red Mage (Green Mage or Oracle actually fits what we currently have better) and gotten similar results.

Swords don't need to be left in the dust (RDM still has access to a lot of Melee gear and Almace/Excalibur), But at the same time i redirect you to my above statement, as a Hybrid job they are adept at melee, and Excellent at Magic.That's not a hybrid job. That's a caster with an incomplete idea attached for novelty. Very different things.

You're free to ask for Melee capabilities, just so long as they don't nerf Magic capabilities, Because you wouldn't be helping RDMYou seem to join Guardian in thinking I'd nerf RDM on the baseline, whereas I'd create a melee facet (hence the stances) and build off that without fear of melee proficiency breaking the job because the limiting mechanic that makes modern hybrids tick would actually be there, along with safeguards to prevent said melee facet from being misused or undermined by other players. Instead of crossing your arms at me before even hearing what I have to say, how about you ask me to elaborate?

you'd be condemning it and everyone who plays it as a mage.If you actually believe this, it only tells me that deep down you do realize the job in its current incarnation is poorly-designed.

Frankly, You're arguing and instigating back, and in some cases, with a far harsher and irritated tone. We're adults "THEY STARTED IT" isn't working. You're just as guilty for continuing it.I can admit to this. Do, however, keep in mind the melee camp is on the receiving end of the insults. In my case, also keep in mind I've been in these kind of arguments before. Different game, different class, but same archetype and same naysayer BS.

If you actually want to make melee'ing viable on a Mage class, you are going to have to find a way to melee while keeping up the same casting load as a backline Red Mage.This creates redundancy, so that would not fly. From a design perspective, cycles don't have a place in front line play.

Frankly, there is no amount of melee DPS that is going to make up for the casting loss. Ever. If I needed a DD, I'd get a DD. If I wanted someone with basic backup magical ability to swing swords at a monster all day, I'd invite a Blue Mage. Red Mage is a caster. The idea, if you insist on forcing the topic, is to melee while still doing that casting. Not to replace itMy prior experiences on this matter beg to differ. DPS boosts, utility that makes it nice to have the hybrid stand in the front hitting things, some inconveniences to healing or safeguards to prevent the hybrid from being forced into buff-botting of heal-botting if front-lining, mezzing/debuffs tied in to front-line play and maybe even some nukes, too. Note the caveat: When front-lining.

If you want to look at it another way, when you play in the back line you get to use the aspects of your class to make the back line role work. When you front line, you use the aspects of your class to make the front line role work. The current model doesn't let that happen due to lacking mechanics and the fact that staying away from the mob (not just in the case of RDM, but most classes in this game) is the "easier" and "safer" alternative.

I know Duelle seems to refer to anything non-melee as "Cure botting" or "Refresh/Haste spamming like a robot".You do realize that our perceived "value" when talking about group dynamics largely hinges on heals, Refresh and Haste, right? Enfeebling plays second fiddle to the big three. Flexibility matters little in party content, in no small part due to the old "good parties don't run into things where your utility and flexibility would help, so shut up and refresh me" argument. If you're trying to bring RDM soloing again, I'll remind you that soloing means nothing in a game built around partying.

You guys also seem to have missed something I did make clear earlier in this thread: I don't mind having a melee RDM abide by the rules other melee follow in combat. If the SAM, DRG, WAR and MNK are being told to not hit a mob due to some encounter mechanic, I'm not going to expect to be melee'ing either. That'd make no sense.

MarkovChain

07-31-2011, 07:12 PM

1) You're either doing it wrong, or don't know what you're talking about if those are the only things you are gaining from your Main/Sub slots. Not trolling.

You are trolling and also a bad RDM.

Magic Accuracy,

FFXI 101. There are 3 Kind of mobs you can experience in ENDGAME (not something you do OBVIOUSLY).
(1) trash mobs, wtf do you need a staff
(2) Boss where you easily cap mag acc (and I mean EASILY) : AT 75 they were gimp mobs like Fafnir, salvage bosses, Nyzul bosses, limbus bosses etc. Don't need staff
(3) Bosses that are either immune (earth wyrms) or that cap magic evasion w/e the gear you are using (Odin).

Casting slow and paralyze (and blind) with staves has always been useless for true RDMs (aka those with a gear / merits that don't completely suck)

PDT, MDT/MDB,

Most useless set of gear. Most of the idiots caring about this did it because they couldn't farm the great pieces of gear, and tried instead to find useless pieces of gear to equip. I mean HELLO stoneskin, equip that enhances stoneskin. If you get nuke you recast stoneskin. At least you didn't say "idle" where some idiots actually equipped regen gear.

dMND,
ok

hMP,

I don't remember the last time I rested my MP on RDM. It was probably in 2005 with awesome exp PT of RDM-SMN(main heal)-PLD-BLM-THF-DRG.

and Refresh say hi.

wat ¿

If a Red Mage is not utilizing 100% of their time/MP/casting pool at all times, HNM or not, they're being lazy as hell.

This is because you are the ONE considering that RDM is a cure bot. If you need curing, WHM are there for this job. RDM is in your ally for
(1) debuff slow/para/blind and mainly dia3
(2) pulling obvioudly
(3) sleeps
(4) backup curing nuking w/e

Due to this, convert, and refresh2 there is basically no time where a RDM is out of MP, but you would not know this since you don't play RDM, or your only experience with it is lol merit parties.

cidbahamut

07-31-2011, 10:35 PM

Shut up Pchan.

Neisan_Quetz

07-31-2011, 11:51 PM

I'm fairly confident Pimpchan is playing DA for the sake of playing DA because I'm fairly confident he doesn't care about meleeing on Rdm either, especially since all 4 points he brought up as to why you would want a Rdm in your group according to him are 4 you don't need meleeing to perform, or meleeing would be detrimental in some shape or form. Not sure what he's arguing for honestly.

Greatguardian

07-31-2011, 11:58 PM

Shut up Pchan.

^.

I'm also fairly annoyed with the idea that "Fixing Rdm Melee" is "5 lines of code that the Devs can do in 2 minutes and won't affect anything else in the game ever". Last I checked, Rdm could out-DD Bard if they don't completely suck. White Mage melee'ing is extremely gimmicky as well, and has never been acceptable on anything outside of fodder, so I don't really see the complaint here. It's not that Red Mage melee is gimped because it is comparable to White Mage's. It is simply that White Mage's melee was buffed to be comparable to Red Mages to fix the job's inability to defend itself while solo.

And frankly, I do not, have not, and will never give half a flying frock about "helping people at the low end of the gear spectrum be super awesome at everything". That is what the gear is for. That is what you do in Final Fantasy XI. You improve your character by undertaking quests and battles in order to obtain better gear, which you then utilize to unlock the maximum potential of your job.

FFXI is not a game where a naked Spankwustler can throw on whatever they want and be good enough. There will be times where your performance, and your gear, and your skills will not be good enough for the task at hand. So what do you do? You get better. Abyssea is casual-friendly content, the likes of which this game hasn't seen in ages. The level cap increase has made old-style content significantly easier, opening the doors to lv75 Endgame gear wide open to anyone who bothers trying for it. If you're (general) still running around in full teal, it is because you are not putting in the effort to get better. Period.

Still not seeing the point some people are trying to make. It's like they're not even reading anything I write (surprised? Nah). I'll put it in bold for you, then. Red Mage is already an acceptably decent Melee on fodder mobs. It does not need to be adjusted in order to become viable on anything below EM-T level. If you agree that melee'ing NMs is stupid, then we have nothing to talk about. But remember, you are not the only RdMelees posting in this thread. Duelle, contrary to his current backpedaling, has called for Magical nerfs in his previous posts.

As for Duelle's post itself, if the group only expects a Red Mage to Haste/Refresh/Cure, then they are either terrible players or know that the Red Mage is terrible and they should not expect much of them. Solo'ing is significant, and cannot be ignored. There are entire classes whose niche relies on solo'ing, and who thus find themselves without a real use in group play.

Some people are arguing Concepts. Others are arguing Reality. For those who are so indignant about the "Duelist" being unable to "Duel", what realistic tweak do you think the Devs could make that would accomplish.... whatever it is you want. Also, what is it that you want? Because every single one of you seems to subscribe to a different (though sometimes similar) agenda. Do you want Rdm melee'ing on HNMs? Do you simply want its melee'ing on fodder mobs to get a buff? Do you want people to actually invite Rdm for their melee aspect (This will Never happen, and nothing SE can do will change that)? Or do you just want to throw a hissy fit about how weak you are like every Pup, Drk, Blu, and Smn in the game? I will always find the latter hilarious considering Red Mage really is the single most powerful job in FFXI, and probably always will be.

I'm fairly confident Pimpchan is playing DA for the sake of playing DA because I'm fairly confident he doesn't care about meleeing on Rdm either, especially since all 4 points he brought up as to why you would want a Rdm in your group according to him are 4 you don't need meleeing to perform, or meleeing would be detrimental in some shape or form. Not sure what he's arguing for honestly.

Not really sure either. He's displaying his typical Pchan inability to read for comprehension. He also doesn't seem to know what Owleyes is, which isn't surprising because he hates Abyssea so much.

MarkovChain

08-01-2011, 12:32 AM

owleyes is as useless as meleing on pup, a RDM is never idle it's always active. It's not a surprise to anyone that you farm crap like this, paired with pdt and mdt. In nowadays FFXI the only RDM equip that are usefull are buff duration extension, MND, nuke, full AF3+2 and the appropriate damage + staves and crimson cuisses.

Honestly SE is going to have a hard time releasing gear that would be more useful if they do not unlock various stats cap (like MND) ; it's not specific to mages anyway.

You can argue that rdm melee is dumb but be sure to not use non retarded argument against it (like capping hate on rdm => you need mdt or -enmity gear) or requiring staves for magic acc or w/e.

Keep your haste, fast cast, pdt,mdt and hmp gear for yourself but please leave us alone with your dumb gear.

Greatguardian

08-01-2011, 12:50 AM

Pchan, ladies and gentlemen.

Karbuncle

08-01-2011, 03:08 AM

ITT: Haste: Dumb gear

SNK

08-01-2011, 03:48 AM

Wow pchan. That's just... terrible....

TybudX

08-01-2011, 04:38 AM

It's like he's arguing against RDM melee while insulting RDM maging. I bet he bleeds from the ears a lot. There's probably a guy in slippers being fed his meds across from him right now.

Doombringer

08-01-2011, 04:52 AM

allright, i'm back and i'm much more sober!

just to reply to karbuncle and hyrist a couple pages back. i do see 1 potential flaw with attaching buffs/enfeebs to enspells.. in that you're generally gonna want 1 buff over the other, depending on the mobs behavior or your party setup. and it's likely not gonna line up with the mobs elemental weakness'/resistances/absorb/so on. this could be solved by making they're natural magic acc sky high (so you can use the buff/enfeeb you want without losing dmg to "resists", even if you use fire on a water mob) or by changing all tier3 enspells to deal non elemental magic damage, with just the added effect being tied to there stated element (this way you also avoid mobs that absorb specific elements)

Duelle

08-01-2011, 08:29 AM

Duelle, contrary to his current backpedaling, has called for Magical nerfs in his previous posts.It's not backpedaling when it is part of the original idea/suggestion. I simply never posted the idea in its entirety. I've been taking pieces from the idea and using them as separate ideas. in other parts of the discussion, both here and in the Melee Mage thread.

Since I'm interpreting your comment as a subtle request to elaborate (or explain myself to some degree), I'll indulge you with the reader's digest version of my idea: I'd basically give a stance mechanic to RDM, but with built-in restrictions to allow emphasis on melee and the caster sides of RDM depending on what you want to do with the job. The melee stance would obviously have mechanics to mix in magic and sword arts (JAs, melee-oriented traits), with limited support, nerfed casting ranges (since the melee stance should be used for melee...), a tweaked spell selection, and possibly some enfeebles exclusive to the melee stance. Boosted melee through higher skill ratings and access to more weapon skills is a no-brainer. On a personal level, I'd also toss in things to streamline the class to perform up to par in this role. In short, the melee RDM would be enfeebling stuff in the front lines while swinging their weapon, dealing melee and some magical damage (enspells and more) with some support still available to them should the need come up, but not to the point where a melee RDM would be forced to use its support only.

The caster stance, on the other hand, would play similarly to how RDM currently plays. You'd have the current support spells, the current nukes (I also had the dual element nuke idea until I was told it's not possible due to game mechanics), additional leeway for healing without giving RDM Cure V, and its enfeebling intact. I would, for the sake of balance, limit melee capabilities when in the caster stance.

What I was considering, though, was distributing the spell lists where appropriate. There's spells that you don't use in the back lines, and similarly there's spells in the front lines that don't do much for you. I guess the best way I could put it is that when looking at Fencer and Sage, one would (for example) look to temporarily disable an opponent while the other, having the advantage of distance and different spells, would be able to take the time to do actual crowd control. The alternative would be to have each stance affect certain spells differently. Don't know how complicated that would be, though.

Feel free to ask if you need me to elaborate further. I have the whole thing archived and there's plenty of points that could be up for discussion...provided there's someone actually willing to discuss things.

As for Duelle's post itself, if the group only expects a Red Mage to Haste/Refresh/Cure, then they are either terrible players or know that the Red Mage is terrible and they should not expect much of them.Yet why are we continuously invited to heal, refresh and haste? Abyssea's refresh atmas were a godsend and all, but those shackles haven't fallen off.

Solo'ing is significant, and cannot be ignored. There are entire classes whose niche relies on solo'ing, and who thus find themselves without a real use in group play.Sorry, but no. No one deserves the fate the developers placed on BST or the other solo-only jobs for as long as they did. Everyone should be able to participate because otherwise, why add those jobs? We already know thematics on their own don't justify anything. Thematics and game mechanics, on the other hand...

Greatguardian

08-01-2011, 10:09 AM

Derp? I already answered your question. If a group only expects a Red Mage to Haste/Cure/Refresh, then either the group is made up of terrible players, or the group knows that the Red Mage is a terrible player who would be unable to do more than that anyways. Only terrible, terrible Red Mages are limited to Haste/Refresh/Cures.

Honestly, I see absolutely no reason to start nerfing Red Mage's spell selection just so that people have a "reason" to melee. What you're asking for is an excuse. "Sorry guys, I can't use the enfeeble you want unless I'm hitting it with a sword ^_^". That, or the enfeeble granted by melee'ing is useless, in which case it does nothing for you. Do you see the dilemma here?

Would I mind having a "Boost attack/acc" and "Boost Mag Acc/Mag Attack" stance option? Naw. But messing with spell selection is just asking for trouble.

Duelle

08-01-2011, 11:50 AM

Honestly, I see absolutely no reason to start nerfing Red Mage's spell selection just so that people have a "reason" to melee. What you're asking for is an excuse.Which goes in accordance of finding a place for melee and placing emphasis on chosen roles. And I wouldn't call it so much an excuse but more a means through which melee is not overshadowed or entirely trumped by the RDM's other faculties. Currently, casting overshadows and carries more benefits than melee. I aim to correct that while preventing redundancy between a caster RDM and melee RDM.

"Sorry guys, I can't use the enfeeble you want unless I'm hitting it with a sword". That, or the enfeeble granted by melee'ing is useless, in which case it does nothing for you. Do you see the dilemma here?You're creating a dilemma before looking at the elements in their entirety. There's a reason I mentioned spells relevant to their role. Are there survival wildcards like Blink and Stoneskin? Sure. I also have no idea what to do with them in the context of rearranging spells and could use the input to flesh the idea out. I guess I'll post how I would redistribute spells at some point. Admitedly, the melee stance is the one that would see more restrictions.

Would I mind having a "Boost attack/acc" and "Boost Mag Acc/Mag Attack" stance option? Naw.I wouldn't either. The so-called balance mongers then come in and tell us we're OP and are asking to make every class obsolete and how we killed their dog and stole their girl. In a way, my idea came about because of their invasions of RDM melee threads (and their equivalents in the WoW boards pre-WotLK). As I said, there's more to it. I'm open for discussion on what's been laid out so far, though.

cidbahamut

08-01-2011, 12:09 PM

So basically you want to tie all our spells up and create the problem Scholar already has? No thanks, that's more of a kick in the nuts to SpankWustler than a buff/correction/whatever-you're-calling-it to melee capabilities.

Aside from en-spells there isn't anything in our spell book that doesn't work just as well or better from the back-line. Any new spells you introduce for this stance-spellbook idea of yours would also likely work better in the back-line provided you don't tie it to sword strikes, which is as GG said: an excuse to melee.

Duelle

08-01-2011, 03:12 PM

So basically you want to tie all our spells up and create the problem Scholar already has? No thanks, that's more of a kick in the nuts to SpankWustler than a buff/correction/whatever-you're-calling-it to melee capabilities.Not all, but some. And rather than leaving things open-ended, you remove things from the equation. As I mentioned, the alternative would have having each stance affect spells differently to create role emphasis through game mechanics. We don't have that at the moment. You can't tell me it wouldn't work, as I've seen it succeed and make all camps happy. Granted, it required specs to truly come to fruition, but I believe that element is not necessary to reach the goal. What we need more of is also one camp to stop trying to put down or halt the other. And if you don't agree with our ideas, then start posting your own. I'm interested to hear how you would fix us.

Aside from en-spells there isn't anything in our spell book that doesn't work just as well or better from the back-line.Which, as I've mentioned is a problem for casters in general. RDM just happens to be hit hard because it's concept and archetype deal with more than just magic.

Any new spells you introduce for this stance-spellbook idea of yours would also likely work better in the back-line provided you don't tie it to sword strikesFirstly, the idea is not so much about the spellbook (again, I haven't talked about what I believe should be split), but more modes for the class. Considering I'd reduce casting range for enfeebles and nukes to about 5 yalms when in melee mode, you're not gonna run into that scenario where your melee-stance spells are going to be cast from a distance. Curing I'd make more inconvenient so that it is truly used in emergencies, whereas buffing would just be changed to self-cast Refresh and Haste (with a JA later on to cut on the amount of times one has to rebuff when in melee), limiting your buffing or others to Protect and Shell.

As far as the "excuse" to melee, you do realize in order to wield our swords we are going to need some sort of design and mechanic change, right? Several of us here have that in mind and know it all too well. We need something to make melee a part of Red Mage play. My approach just happens to involve other adjustments because I tend to keep the balance mongers in mind. I know what their lot is like, and I hate their complaining about as much as I hate the BS the naysayers spout.

So, again, what are your suggestions to fix RDM melee?

TybudX

08-01-2011, 07:55 PM

You say you don't want to nerf RDM casting:

Not all

but before the sentence is through:

but some

followed by this tripe:

I'd reduce casting range for enfeebles and nukes to about 5 yalms when in melee mode

Curing I'd make more inconvenient so that it is truly used in emergencies, whereas buffing would just be changed to self-cast Refresh and Haste

As far as the "excuse" to melee... we are going to need some sort of design and mechanic change

Your solution is to gimp the living hell out of RDM so that it's less useful than BST of SMN?
Lets give RDM a stance that makes them a second rate DD PLD.

So, again, what are your suggestions to fix RDM melee?

There is nothing wrong with RDM melee. It's good against trash mobs. It sucks against harder mobs. You want to have a stance that makes your melee better against harder mobs while nerfing your magic? It's called /change job. If you don't need RDM magic play a real DD. If all you care about is role playing, find a role playing LS.

Now, quit playing dallas in the RDM forums.

cidbahamut

08-01-2011, 08:49 PM

And if you don't agree with our ideas, then start posting your own. I'm interested to hear how you would fix us.
The thing is, SpankWustler doesn't need fixing.

Greatguardian

08-01-2011, 11:45 PM

You say you don't want to nerf RDM casting:

but before the sentence is through:

followed by this tripe:

Your solution is to gimp the living hell out of RDM so that it's less useful than BST of SMN?
Lets give RDM a stance that makes them a second rate DD PLD.

There is nothing wrong with RDM melee. It's good against trash mobs. It sucks against harder mobs. You want to have a stance that makes your melee better against harder mobs while nerfing your magic? It's called /change job. If you don't need RDM magic play a real DD. If all you care about is role playing, find a role playing LS.

Now, quit playing dallas in the RDM forums.

I could man-hug you, no homo. This in a nutshell is everything that is wrong with Duelle's stance argument. You (Duelle) are not buffing melee, you are nerfing magic and requiring melee'ing to do what we already do now. For crying out loud, you bring up Blink and Stoneskin as if they should only be available in your melee stance. That is bloody horrible.

There is a very clear bloody reason that Red Mage is ten times the mage Scholar will ever be, despite having a weaker spell selection and fewer actively contributing magical JAs. Not sure what it is? Let me spell it out for you:

Red Mage is extremely powerful because it has access to every single one of its spells at maximum potency at all times.

Undermine that and you undermine what makes Red Mage good. So seriously, don't you or anyone else dare complain about us "haters" coming in and "trolling" you guys while you're tossing around "harmless ideas" that "simply augment Melee without hurting Magic". You admit straight up that you absolutely refuse to believe that there is any way to make Red Mage's melee aspect good enough for you without fundamentally nerfing Red Mage's magical prowess.

If you won't be content with anything less than a nerf, then shove off. No one wants to hear it. I don't care how you justify it to yourself. Real Red Mages aren't going to sit idly by while you destroy our class.

Duelle

08-02-2011, 07:30 PM

Undermine that and you undermine what makes Red Mage good. So seriously, don't you or anyone else dare complain about us "haters" coming in and "trolling" you guys while you're tossing around "harmless ideas" that "simply augment Melee without hurting Magic". You admit straight up that you absolutely refuse to believe that there is any way to make Red Mage's melee aspect good enough for you without fundamentally nerfing Red Mage's magical prowess.Then it falls on you to convince me otherwise. Start posting your ideas on how to fix RDM melee if you're so convinced the current design can work in making both camps happy. We're all ears.

Rayik

08-02-2011, 08:05 PM

As much of a complete and utter geek as I am, there is a massive difference between players who look at a job's name/archetype and demand that whatever it happens to be now conform to that preconception, and players who look at what a job actually is and think about how to make it better at what it does.

Funny, one group is almost always more successful than the other, both in-game and in the idea market. I wonder why that is.

The job is sold as a Magic Swordsman. I want to use magic AND my sword, and you make it out that this is asking too much? Go to www.finalfantasyxi.com, click on "Your Characters", and scroll down to the Red Mage job description. All we're asking for is to actually do what the job does that we signed up for.

Again, I'm asking you, how do YOU know that your biased perspective on the job is the "correct" one? The job is a hybrid; it'd be different if we were arguing against a WHM curing or a BLM nuking, but we're not. You're more than happy to pigeon-hole a hybrid into a single role, and you don't see the problem?

It's not like we're asking to nuke on DRK, we're just asking that an existing facet of the job be brought up to a playable level. Your precious "only stand in the back and cast spells" play style is not in any danger, so what do you honestly care? Why does it bother you that there could be a possibility of the job doing what is was intended to do?

If I wanted to be a SCH, I'd just be a SCH.

Rayik

08-02-2011, 08:09 PM

cidbahamut

08-02-2011, 08:35 PM

The job is sold as a Magic Swordsman. I want to use magic AND my sword, and you make it out that this is asking too much? Go to www.finalfantasyxi.com, click on "Your Characters", and scroll down to the Red Mage job description. All we're asking for is to actually do what the job does that we signed up for.
Those descriptions haven't been updated in nearly a decade, you really think those count for anything? Heck, if we're going by that then Warrior is some sort of defensive class that specializes in preventing damage to other party members. Guess what? It isn't, just like SpankWustler isn't a master swordsman.

It's not like we're asking to nuke on DRK.

Actually it's exactly like that, except that DRKs seem to know what they're good at and get angry when SE tries to give them magic updates because it doesn't actually do anything for the job.

Your precious "only stand in the back and cast spells" play style is not in any danger, so what do you honestly care?

Because it is in danger? I think someone else already covered it, but time spent developing melee nonsense is development time that should have been spent making worthwhile adjustments to the job.

Why does it bother you that there could be a possibility of the job doing what is was intended to do?

If I wanted to be a SCH, I'd just be a SCH.
If you honestly think playing Scholar is the same as playing SpankWustler, then you probably haven't done a whole lot with SpankWustler. The two play very differently and do not offer the same utility at all.

Rayik

08-02-2011, 08:58 PM

Those descriptions haven't been updated in nearly a decade, you really think those count for anything? Heck, if we're going by that then Warrior is some sort of defensive class that specializes in preventing damage to other party members. Guess what? It isn't, just like SpankWustler isn't a master swordsman.

Ya know, it's funny, because last I checked, WAR can tank just fine. They have no problems holding hate, can wear the heaviest armors and have a nice range of -PDT gear as well. Hmm.. Notice none of those other classes on that list changed either? Oh yeah, except RDM, which turned into a completely different job.

Actually it's exactly like that, except that DRKs seem to know what they're good at and get angry when SE tries to give them magic updates because it doesn't actually do anything for the job.

Right, because every iteration of DRK(including Zeid in FFXI) was known for their nuking ability... Swing and a miss. Level DRK and get back to me.

Because it is in danger? I think someone else already covered it, but time spent developing melee nonsense is development time that should have been spent making worthwhile adjustments to the job.

Oh noes, but according to you guys, RDM is already an uber-powerful mage, and many of the anti-melee crowd has been chanting over and over that nothing is wrong or needs fixed, so which is it?

If you honestly think playing Scholar is the same as playing SpankWustler, then you probably haven't done a whole lot with SpankWustler. The two play very differently and do not offer the same utility at all.

You mean aside from the part where you stand in the back and cast both Light and Dark spells, buffing the party, and enfeeble the mob? Yep, nothing alike at all.

Rayik

08-02-2011, 09:19 PM

EDIT: On second thought, not worth necro'ing.

Rayik

08-02-2011, 09:49 PM

If you won't be content with anything less than a nerf, then shove off. No one wants to hear it. I don't care how you justify it to yourself. Real Red Mages aren't going to sit idly by while you destroy our class.

I love how anyone who disagrees with you is "destroying our class". Get off your high horse, you aren't the spokesman for all of RDM kind.

I think the idea of a stance could be viable, but we're already the worst job at every class of spells that's still considered a mage, so nerfing magic would hurt. Yes, I know what our Enhancing Skill rating is, show me the Enhancing Spells that back it up that someone else(coughWHMcough) doesn't already have better versions of.

I don't want to see our magic side nerfed. It's bad enough every worthwhile NM in the game is either resistant or flat out immune to our enfeebles as-is. I'd honestly be happy with just a better WS, doesn't even need to be Vorpal Blade. A worthwhile magic-based WS and I'll be a happy camper.

Eeek

08-02-2011, 10:30 PM

Then it falls on you to convince me otherwise. Start posting your ideas on how to fix RDM melee if you're so convinced the current design can work in making both camps happy. We're all ears.

First off, the melee camp is hilariously misguided.

Secondly, chat with Doombringer if you don't know how to play and gear RDM. Actually, you should probably chat with him anyways since, based on your posts, you're probably doing something (or some things) incredibly wrong. Melee RDM, in the hands of a competent player, seems to do fine in situations where it's reasonable to melee.

I think it's now fair to argue that the RDMs who just need a crutch in the form of melee adjustments from SE - well ... those RDMs simply aren't capable of, for whatever reason, gearing and playing the job properly.

Eeek

08-02-2011, 10:35 PM

I love how anyone who disagrees with you is "destroying our class". Get off your high horse, you aren't the spokesman for all of RDM kind.

I think the idea of a stance could be viable, but we're already the worst job at every class of spells that's still considered a mage, so nerfing magic would hurt. Yes, I know what our Enhancing Skill rating is, show me the Enhancing Spells that back it up that someone else(coughWHMcough) doesn't already have better versions of.

Wow...

With glaring mistakes of this caliber, I hope you're not the spokesman for anything.

I hate to break it to you, but Greaguardian is correct, and pretty much every RDM with any semblance of talent shares his opinions.

Rayik

08-02-2011, 10:58 PM

Wow...

With glaring mistakes of this caliber, I hope you're not the spokesman for anything.

I hate to break it to you, but Greaguardian is correct, and pretty much every RDM with any semblance of talent shares his opinions.

Opinions are awesome.

I never said I was the spokesperson for anything. I simply want a facet of the job that exists in-game to be a little more viable in a group situation. I don't feel a hybrid job needs to be relegated to one position only. Sort of goes against being a hybrid, really.

Neisan_Quetz

08-02-2011, 11:26 PM

Ya know, it's funny, because last I checked, WAR can tank just fine. They have no problems holding hate, can wear the heaviest armors and have a nice range of -PDT gear as well. Hmm.. Notice none of those other classes on that list changed either? Oh yeah, except RDM, which turned into a completely different job.

ITT: Only War can use PDT/MDT gear in addition to having a grand total of one defensive Ja, which nerfs its damage so no one use it.

Right, because every iteration of DRK(including Zeid in FFXI) was known for their nuking ability... Swing and a miss. Level DRK and get back to me.

Except Rdm was never a good melee, it simply had access to strong melee swords and some melee gear - oh wait, that's exactly like FFXI's incarnation of Rdm, damn. It's always had weak melee stats.

Oh noes, but according to you guys, RDM is already an uber-powerful mage, and many of the anti-melee crowd has been chanting over and over that nothing is wrong or needs fixed, so which is it?

Rdm melee capability is hardly a priority on what needs to be fixed with the job, enhancing spells/enfeebling spells/potentially unnerf Saboteur do.

You mean aside from the part where you stand in the back and cast both Light and Dark spells, buffing the party, and enfeeble the mob? Yep, nothing alike at all.

Pretty clear you have no idea what's wrong with Sch and why no one is playing it.

Rayik

08-02-2011, 11:40 PM

ITT: Only War can use PDT/MDT gear in addition to having a grand total of one defensive Ja, which nerfs its damage so no one use it.

Wow, way to completely misread what I said. I didn't even mention Defender, because, like you said, it nerfs damage. And I didn't say it was the only job that can equip -PDT gear, I just said that it can. Troll harder, I make much more glaring mistakes than this if you're trying to belittle me.

Except Rdm was never a good melee, it simply had access to strong melee swords and some melee gear - oh wait, that's exactly like FFXI's incarnation of Rdm, damn. It's always had weak melee stats.

And DRK was never good at nuking, so what are you getting at? I'm looking to bolster a facet of the job, DRK nukes were put there to Magic Burst on Weapon Skills. Really, I don't know where you're going with this. DRK's have never been represented as nukers in any facet, RDM's have been shown as swordsmen many times.

Rdm melee capability is hardly a priority on what needs to be fixed with the job, enhancing spells/enfeebling spells/potentially unnerf Saboteur do.

Ok, I agree with you there.

Pretty clear you have no idea what's wrong with Sch and why no one is playing it.

You got me there.

Karbuncle

08-02-2011, 11:42 PM

I don't know, I think the problem is that a lot of people who play FFXI have played past FF Games, and rather they admit it or not, all their opinions are 100% biased on how RDM use to play.

They have some glorious nostalgia vision of RDMs in combat hitting things and slinging spells. The problem is, FFXI decided "Fk that noise, enjoy enhancing and enfeebling", They decided to give RDM a speciatly, unfortunately it was not melee.

The problem is we need to accept that, and try to work on ways to improve the job where its strongest.

If they turned around and said "Hey THF, your new weapon is greatsword" would i be like "QQ BUT I WANNA RP DAGGERS", fk no, I'd take my Greatsword, and shove it up the mobs a** faster than you could blink...

Why you might ask? because i don't care about a silly RP of the job so long as what they're giving me helps my job participate better and contribute more to a fight. Sneak Attack Torc? rofl-plow some stuff i say.

But really, this works on both sides, If by some Miracle SE decided "You know what, RDM does need a melee buff", and they started by adjusting RDM's sword skill to A-, adding more powerful Enspells that didn't overwrite Sambas (Where applicable), and gave RDM a slew of Defensive/Buff abilities to compliment RDM melee, Would that not be acceptable?

Because it would still greatly benefit the job without the need for a nerf.

And to the Melee crowd, come to accept RDM is exactly where it was in Past FF Games, a Mediocre melee with access to good weapons, but not a master of them. Luckily for you they are a master at something, unlike past games. SE isn't held to past game but something tells me they're content with RDM melee as it is. But still, you need to ask yourself why you feel so strongly about it?

Would a buff to Enhancing/Enfeebling that greatly boosted your desired-rate in a party slot be that bad? Would you sacrifice utility for Role-playing if you had to chose?

Greatguardian

08-03-2011, 12:16 AM

First off, the melee camp is hilariously misguided.

Secondly, chat with Doombringer if you don't know how to play and gear RDM. Actually, you should probably chat with him anyways since, based on your posts, you're probably doing something (or some things) incredibly wrong. Melee RDM, in the hands of a competent player, seems to do fine in situations where it's reasonable to melee.

I think it's now fair to argue that the RDMs who just need a crutch in the form of melee adjustments from SE - well ... those RDMs simply aren't capable of, for whatever reason, gearing and playing the job properly.

This is the important point that a lot of people are missing.

I love how anyone who disagrees with you is "destroying our class". Get off your high horse, you aren't the spokesman for all of RDM kind.

Seriha, Supersun, and Hyrist disagree with me and I'm not accusing them of trying to destroy Red Mage. Duelle is the one trying to nerf Red Mage's spell selection and casting abilities. That is pretty screwed up, and I dare say I'm confident enough to speak for many Red Mages when I say that we will not stand for it. I could care less about a melee buff, provided that it does not nerf our magical aspect or take away development time from our magical aspects. The latter is still a big deal. Hours spent figuring out the balance and implementation of a new Melee ability are hours spent doing absolutely nothing for the successful aspect of Red Mage.

I think the idea of a stance could be viable, but we're already the worst job at every class of spells that's still considered a mage, so nerfing magic would hurt. Yes, I know what our Enhancing Skill rating is, show me the Enhancing Spells that back it up that someone else(coughWHMcough) doesn't already have better versions of.

This is pretty off base. We miss all of, what, Cure V, Regen 3, and T5 nukes / -Ga nukes? Red Mage has an astoundingly powerful spell selection, all things considered. Especially because we're not shackled down with the same horseshit that Scholar is. Stances that simply increase melee potency or increase magic potency? That's fine. I can just fulltime the magic one, win/win. Stances that affect spell selection and/or nerf casting abilities/ranges? No.

I don't want to see our magic side nerfed. It's bad enough every worthwhile NM in the game is either resistant or flat out immune to our enfeebles as-is. I'd honestly be happy with just a better WS, doesn't even need to be Vorpal Blade. A worthwhile magic-based WS and I'll be a happy camper.

Chant du Cygne is the best Sword WS in the game. Use that. (inb4 getting WoE weapons is hard. Goes back to point #1, if Rdm melee sucks, get better gear and it won't suck. Every job is the same).

Rayik

08-03-2011, 12:19 AM