On Red Mage melee... [Archive] - Page 4

Hyrist

07-15-2011, 05:02 AM

So long as it's done in good faith and sportsmanship, I'm not opposed to doing another proof of concept. (Read, not the first time my gimp ass has gone up against Mamool Ja.)

Two major concerns I have, however:

The first one:

This is Starfox's TP gear at the time of the 08 parse. (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?144315)

Right now I'm running as follows:
Blau/Joy Tipha
Turban P.charm Brutal Suppa
Goliard, Dusk, Lava's, Kusha's
Amenant+1 Swift, Prince's, Dusk (nq)

I'm running a rather large chunk behind in STR (should also note his max STR merits to my 1). Though I'm ahead in haste, I'm apprehensive that my damage per hit is going to suffer for the difference. I remember he was pretty Adamant about having an appropriate str boost. I could probably swap in dusk legs to help slightly. However, I don't have an adequate enough single acc ring to bring my Raja's into the equation. (That or I'm underestimating my accuracy.)

This isn't getting into my woefully inadequate Evisceration gear. Put bluntly: I don't have one. It's just sort of patched together from gear I have, and I was going to improve upon with gear that has come out since my hiatus. But I'm not afraid of Jerry rigging it. (I'll post the full set once I've got the macro reprogrammed.) If nothing else, it'll show me where I need to emphasize changes.

This said, the second major concern is job adjustments since said date. Samurai had Zanshin update. Not so worried about DRG, they should be where they were before.

On the other hand, I will be using composure, which was not available at the time of Starfox's parse. So there's some give and take there as well.

I will likely not be doing 80% of any DD that's up to par on their gear. (We've never established what 'par' was, however.) But I'm not afraid of seeing how far my current work has gotten me. We can math the difference between myself and Starfox. (Sad, if he was playing, he'd be the one to challenge, he was on Odin after all. I don't think he still plays, however.)

So, while we're being up front, what gear sets on SAM and DRG am I going to be parsing against?

Supersun

07-15-2011, 05:12 AM

If you have time I'd suggest getting a pair of augmented ASA pants with Acc and haste. That's a pretty big jump in damage.

(that and dusk +1 boots are pretty cheap now, at least on my server)

Other then maybe upgrading your back to a foragers/cerberus+1 your TP set is looking pretty solid.

(also, another thing to note is some of the merits have been adjusted since 75)

Rearden

07-15-2011, 05:30 AM

A good SAM was using a 6-hit and a Hagun, Polearm for Lolibri. None of the following was particularily hard to get, and I think for the most part pretty common. This SAM in a party with a BRD is going to average (1hit WS) 1100-1400, low (DA WS, 1st hit miss) 700-900 and high (Double attack) 1800-2400 - all numbers being higher with a 2nd brd or cor, meat, zerk up

This is my old setup, a 6 hit, with a 5 hit following WS.

TP
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/222742

WS
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/222743

Hyrist

07-15-2011, 05:33 AM

I've been lazy with the Add-ons. Still been debating whether or not I can take the accuracy Calmecac Trousers (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/11958/calmecac-trousers), which would be better if I can. It's kind of hard to parse that without a solid point of comparison like back in the ToAU days.

Even if I fail this parse hard, I'm not suddenly going to /toss my Melee gear. It's been a long standing hobby and, at the bare minimum, some of this gear will be useful pulling my BLU off the back shelf.

Starfox said he could tango with the big DDs, he showed his evidence, I even partied with him as the Back Line RDM. These guys seem to think the DDs he parsed against sucked. I think that's a unfair assessment, but I'm not going to pretend I know SAM or DRG the way I know RDM. So lets see. I'm interested in knowing what they think is sub par gear for their class.

But I really got to spend some time meriting. Time though, being the problem. I get on, it's dynamis/limbus/abyssea farming for a couple hours, and then I log off.

wish12oz

07-15-2011, 05:35 AM

Um.... that rdm was a gimp, there's no way he did as good as people are saying, unless the people he was parsing against were absolutely terrible.
Also: 415 acc should be enough to cap you on anything other then lurkers, try to cap haste and hit that, and make a respectable WS set so you don't have a bunch of excuses for why you can't do it.

As for me and my gear, I'm pretty sure I have everything useful for lvl 75 SAM, or can go get it off the AH, with the exception of amano, so lol.
EDIT: No Justice torque, or bushi =[

Hyrist

07-15-2011, 05:41 AM

A good SAM was using a 6-hit and a Hagun, Polearm for Lolibri. None of the following was particularily hard to get, and I think for the most part pretty common. This SAM in a party with a BRD is going to average (1hit WS) 1100-1400, low (DA WS, 1st hit miss) 700-900 and high (Double attack) 1800-2400 - all numbers being higher with a 2nd brd or cor, meat, zerk up

This is my old setup, a 6 hit, with a 5 hit following WS.

Only think I see in the TP gear that makes me raise a brow is Velocious Belt and Asir Earring as far as you saying 'not hard to get'.

The rest looks like the best you could get at that level/time. Mind telling me what was better than that (for your TP set in particular)?

Rearden

07-15-2011, 05:47 AM

Ace's Helm would have been nice, the Justice is also a toss up at that level for Peacock and Ele. Gorget as far as overall damage goes. There are different ways to make a 6 hit, and I was gone, but I think there was even 5 hit potential but I'm not sure.

Aesir was not hard to get, Odin Prime was easily done by a party of 6, and I beat Odin Prime the other day (At lv90) MNK+BRD, so getting one now isn't hard to get either.

V.Belt was easy to get (As was Ace's, honestly) as long as you and a few friends were dedicated to camping KA for a couple weeks. Same goes for KV, though he required an LS to kill it for you. If you're quantifying time = hard, then that is different than what I quantify hard as. (Low low low drop rate/Hard NM/Lengthy tiered pop system, etc) Think salvage before cells in the box, or sea torques.

Swords

07-15-2011, 05:50 AM

It was pretty common to have around 400 base attack back at 75 for most melees as i recall. Additional boosts usually came from JA's, food, or bard spells.

Aurara

07-15-2011, 05:54 AM

my drg gear is nothing special, lol.
Edit: i dont even have a vbelt or n.sash on my lolz

Hyrist

07-15-2011, 06:01 AM

Um.... that rdm was a gimp, there's no way he did as good as people are saying, unless the people he was parsing against were absolutely terrible.

Mind explaining where he was lacking?

I want to stress the good faith part on this here. I'm not going to do this if all it results in is smack talk. If Starfox's parses seem wrong or he was against inappropriate DD, that's fine by me. Again this is nearly a 4 year old parse, it bears no weight to our current situation. But I want to understand what calls for gimp to you guys.

This is the argument I believe you guys can't answer:

I've seen so many subpar "accepted DD" it's not even funny. Yet, the way you present things, it's a sin for RDM to even try, because "it's not possible", while it's okay for a "accepted DD class" player to try to improve the way they play?

The majority of the times I melee, there's no conflict of interest. My policy is "Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses." And I continually work on my gear to push both aspects of it. (Though I'll admit, I'm really far behind now. Too many breaks from the game.) You guys seem to imply that I'm wrong in that pursuit, even though it doesn't effect you.

I roll my eyes just as much as the RDM's that walk up with mage gear and swing at things. Or those who refuse to swap gear. Though, I don't outwardly insult them for it, I try to explain where they can improve, and leave it up to them to decide to do it. Most the time I'll never see these people in game anyways, but I would always like to see people pushing their performance, regardless as the the decision as to what they're doing.

If you guys want to keep things down to real numbers, and disprove statements like the one I have with actual testing, I'm more than fine with that. If nothing else, I'll keep pushing just to keep the numbers out there and accurate for discussion. (Hell, I wouldn't mind a bit of assistance in pushing it as far as it could go.)

Hyrist

07-15-2011, 06:03 AM

If you're quantifying time = hard, then that is different than what I quantify hard as.

When you're running an erratic, limited schedule, time is a difficulty, yes. It might be a bit of a different standard, but it was what held me up on a great deal of content for quite a long while.

Supersun

07-15-2011, 06:16 AM

Find another synch other then Aurara. I think he's made it plenty clear that he has no intention of showing even the slightest amount of sportsmanship and is not going to even attempt to get rid of his biases for this experiment.

(http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/104504-The-Official-Forums-II-Out-Here-Grindin/page85)

(also, remember not to enblizzard :P)

wish12oz

07-15-2011, 06:28 AM

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/samgear.jpg

This is what Ive thrown together, gonna use pizza with it and try to find a black tathlum. Im aware I can cap acc and use meat if I use aces helm, usu shoes/body but Id rather have the 2% haste and 2% DA
Was out in rolanberry checking tp gain, so I knew if I needed anything besides rajas/brutal for WS, but forgot SAM got another STP trait now lol, so I'll just assume this is good and use askar for WS too.
Go me, gimping it up.

EDIT: Ethreal earring, N sash, Pole grip

Edit2: I never actually played SAM, I just figured I had enough useful gear to do 80% of the damage in a parse against any rdm, and Im sure Im still right, but Im starting to think my SAM is pretty gimp =3

Rearden

07-15-2011, 06:34 AM

When you quit, go ahead and transfer me some gils

wish12oz

07-15-2011, 06:38 AM

Any Odin BRDs or CORs wanna come?
Also: anyone wanna come outside heal/haste?

Aurara

07-15-2011, 06:41 AM

wish12oz

07-15-2011, 06:50 AM

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/samws.jpg

Poopy WS set ready! lolnopants

Supersun

07-15-2011, 06:58 AM

Well if you are done running to BG and mocking your competition (aka unsportsmanlike) would you mind posting your gear set here as well like requested...

Swords

07-15-2011, 07:00 AM

I found some old pictures of some of my full on attack setups I used to mess with back in the day. This was a bit prior to the big 2h weapon update that reworked some of the melee formulas however, besides the lack of some of more key gear like Raja's Ring it still gives you some pieces of gear to look at and consider for a Lv75 setup.

http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/Swordsdon/MAX%20ATK/

Aurara

07-15-2011, 07:01 AM

My gearset is in that thread

Supersun

07-15-2011, 07:04 AM

My gearset is in that thread

I see that, now post it here as well for the rest of us.

Aurara

07-15-2011, 07:08 AM

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q268/Aurara_Ifrit/ffxi_20110714_140726-1.png
TP

WS
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q268/Aurara_Ifrit/ffxi_20110714_140735-1-1.png

Hyrist

07-15-2011, 07:10 AM

N.Sash is gimp... it's just an AV drop, no big whoop.

I'm starting to see why you guys would call parses against Starfox to be terribad. Anything that's not the best gear to you guys is gimp or barely passible. It's black and white to you guys.

Aruara, I don't have DRG and SAM sets visualy memorized, mind just posting up the breakdown?

Rearden

07-15-2011, 07:12 AM

Aurara

07-15-2011, 07:22 AM

Nsash is not that different from vbelt, lol same haste value so idk why you're crying.

wish12oz

07-15-2011, 07:25 AM

N sash gains 2 haste and 10 attack over swift belt, thats a pretty big increase. Compared to just speed belt you only gain 6 attack, but its still 6 attack you wouldnt otherwise have! Saying its not a big deal or gimp is just kind of wrong.

Neisan_Quetz

07-15-2011, 07:26 AM

It also happens to be the best belt for Rdm meleeing.

Hyrist

07-15-2011, 07:26 AM

What, you suddenly don't want to parse?

This is the argument I believe you guys can't answer:

"I've seen so many subpar "accepted DD" it's not even funny. Yet, the way you present things, it's a sin for RDM to even try, because "it's not possible", while it's okay for a "accepted DD class" player to try to improve the way they play?"

No, I still want to see where my set measures up, mainly my TP set, however. You guys are posting some of the best gear for that level, with feint acceptions off of 20hr + (H)NMs that nobody camps anymore, or calling yourset gimp when you're wearing drops off mobs that were impossible to get without SE suddenly patching to correct the 'mistake'.

And you even went as far as calling Starfox's gear for what he wore gimp and I'm not even up to THAT level. So no, I want the comparison. If we're going to start calling pieces of gear you'd likley not replace ever at 75 gimp, then we need to know what 'not gimp is'. Cause I can tell you right now, I'd love to have some of the pieces you're toting around insulting yourselves over.

What you guys care about, and what I do, are completely different things. I'm aiming to push the performance of a neglected aspect of my job class to it's limits. You're telling me what those limits are without testing, and questioning those who have tested.

So, let's test!

Neisan_Quetz

07-15-2011, 07:30 AM

Aside from N Sash standing in for V belt (could go down to Swift if you're going to complain that much about it...), I don't see anything unusual about Kamugi's Sam's gearset for a Sam in good gear. Heck, no bushi and no Justice torque.

Aurara

07-15-2011, 07:31 AM

Hyrist

07-15-2011, 07:38 AM

Same problem here though, no Love Torque or elemntal gorgets to speak of. Hell I don't even have Palwhan gear, whicih is some of the better 75 Dex pieces available to RDM. (feet in particular) (Farming the items, just being slow about it due to taking time for LS ventures.)

It was one of the hurtles I mentioned earlier. It's hard to get help for the gear. It's an uphill climb to ask for help to get gear and entire section of the player base dosen't want you to use. That's a deeply ingrained flaw in the game design.

I'm just pointing out the perspective differences here. You guys are quick to insult yourselves, let alone anyone with outside the accessibility you have.

wish12oz

07-15-2011, 07:39 AM

Anything short of mandau rdm with perfect gear isnt going to come within 50% of a real melee who is decent, like my SAM. This is the only point Im going to illustrate to you since you seem to think a gimp rdm can do 80% of what a half decent SAM can do. Whats going to happen, is we're going to go out there, youre going to do like 5-15% of the total damage, and then Im going to end this mistaken belief that at 75 RDMs could do 80% of what a competent SAM was capable of.

BTW, here's what you should be using:
mandau/dunno/that acc+str ranged item from the demon NM in castle z
wala turban, pcc, suppa, brutal
goliard body, dusk gloves+1, mars ring, rajas
cerb+1, ninurtas, shantototo pants with 3 haste, dusk boots+1
with pizza.

With this set for TP and a good WS set, you might do half what a decent SAM could do. What that other guy was wearing wouldnt come close.
EDIT: When I make the statement above ^ I'm speaking from experience, because I had melee sets for RDM that I used in campaign all the time, and even tried on ITs and HNMs and weak stuff like dynamis. RDM doesn't do anything compared to any of my DD jobs.

Supersun

07-15-2011, 07:44 AM

Which ring is that Aurara...

Aurara

07-15-2011, 07:48 AM

Which ring is what? its a flame ring.

Supersun

07-15-2011, 07:59 AM

Just checking since I know another lvl 75 ring that looks like that which would be totally unfair to use in this test XD

Aurara

07-15-2011, 08:00 AM

Why would it be unfair? If i have the gear available to me why not use it? Surely you aren't saying I should make my gear worse so he has a better chance to come close to my dmg?

Supersun

07-15-2011, 08:04 AM

Why would it be unfair? If i have the gear available to me why not use it? Surely you aren't saying I should make my gear worse so he has a better chance to come close to my dmg?

It's unfair because virtually NO ONE had a Mars ring for the vast majority of the time at 75 except for maybe a few months between Perfect Defense and the level cap increase...

Or if you were one of the fortunate few that got to kill AV through some "exploit" before SE patched it.

Aurara

07-15-2011, 08:07 AM

Actually a lot of people had mars at 75 depending what LS you were in, assuming you had tons of people with DRK lvl'd.

Karbuncle

07-15-2011, 08:10 AM

Hyrist

07-15-2011, 08:10 AM

mandau/dunno/that acc+str ranged item from the demon NM in castle z
wala turban, pcc, suppa, brutal
goliard body, dusk gloves+1, toreaders, rajas
cerb+1, ninurtas, shantototo pants with 3 haste, dusk boots+1
with pizza.

There is no better offhand than Joy if you're not spending stones.
Dusk +1 legs are a problem mainly just due to accessability on the AH, or getting a Leatherworker to HQ. Cereb same issue.

I'm trying to think of which NM it is you're talking about for that ammo piece... I remember reading on it.

It's hard to parse against yourself. But again, even to prove your own point I'm willing to test. I'll push my performance as far as it'll go, because that's a hobby for me. It's part of what makes this game fun on my end. But I'd rather parse for accurate data and be wrong, than have merely Starfox and the 'naked monk' as the only points of comparison. They both have wild problems with it, especialy with age.

Of course, pushing for 75 tests seem to be pointless and outdated due to this becomming a lvl 99 game. But I'm down for that sort of testing if people want to try to prove the comparsion levels they're saying. At any level, at any situation I'm willing to work on this and test it out.

You want to say you've done so, but I don't think you actually have recorded data of your own, and that's what I want.

Karbuncle

07-15-2011, 08:12 AM

Tell you what, I've almost got a Mandau for my THF! (25/61 Jades for Bart), I'll parse a 90 Mandau RDM with the best gear i can get against anyone who wants to try.

This would be a realistic test.

Supersun

07-15-2011, 08:15 AM

Any good SAM would use Polearm on Colibri.

Aren't they going to parse at mamools though like Starfoxes parse?

wish12oz

07-15-2011, 08:17 AM

I just hate seeing people say a RDM with decent gear can do 80% of what any real DD with decent gear could do. That statement is entirely false, and I'll willing to go prove it. And as far as it goes, Hagun SAM isnt even that good, should of parsed against a polearm SAM, a DRG or a WAR with adequate gear. It's very obvious to me the people in the referenced parse were way to gimp for it to be taken seriously. If you want to know what you could of really done, I can regear my WAR for 75 and show you.

wish12oz

07-15-2011, 08:18 AM

Aren't they going to parse at mamools though like Starfoxes parse?

most of the stuff at mammools (puks) are weak to piercing too, so it applies there also.

Karbuncle

07-15-2011, 08:18 AM

Aren't they going to parse at mamools though like Starfoxes parse?

Dunno, When i heard the words 75 cap i assumed they were going to a good camp.

Not hells armpit.

Hyrist

07-15-2011, 08:22 AM

I simply don't see a point in making the SAM(DD) You're "battling" against in the parse purposefully gimp.

Would it not be a hollow victory to beat a SAM that for all intents and purposes was gimp? I sorta understand no AV items, sorta. but forcing him to use a Great Katana over a Polearm? That is grade-A Gimp. Any good SAM would use Polearm on Colibri.

ANY good SAM. its basic Colibri intelligence.

I just don't see the point of this if its not going to be Best vs best. Wheres the victory in beating someone you've forced into dumbing down their armor? It seems like it'd be a hollow victory because the only thing you'd prove is that you could almost out-DD a SAM so long as the SAM was using a bad weapon choice and selective gear.

Right, though there's problems with statments like that as not all camps in ToAU were lolibri. Hagun sam was likely the Mamool JA camp issue. I donno, I'm not Starfox.

But when you mention 'Best vs best', what is the best for RDM? Who has 'the best'? I don't think anyone's actually collected the full potential. There is certainly gear out there for a RDM to work for. However, I think the biggest argument on the pro melee camp to SE is, if they're going to do that, they should also provide a meaningful use for it.

Excalibur, Mandau, Almace, these things aren't easy to get, yet they dangle them in front of Red Mages.

And the dangeling is not limited to just Relics either. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1XX3ZbVrLs)

Rearden

07-15-2011, 08:24 AM

Neisan_Quetz

07-15-2011, 08:27 AM

EDIT: not worth it

Hyrist

07-15-2011, 08:29 AM

I would personally just use Colibri for the parse because then you aren't getting different mob types, stoneskins, etc. thrown into the mix.

Puks, Wyverns and Mamool are going to throw the numbers off due to varying AGI levels, evasion levels and such.

This actually presents a question I have:

Colibri dominated exp at 75 for a good few years, it became an easy measuring standard for looking at accuracy/numbers etc.

Has there been any real intermediary camps to do the same as the level cap rises, or are we waiting till 99 to find that 'one mob' to parse against?

wish12oz

07-15-2011, 08:30 AM

Only thing I tossed was my perdu volge, if you're up for a real challenge I can get another great axe.
(well, and ancient torque, but that doesnt really count since its buyable)
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/war75.jpg

Karbuncle

07-15-2011, 08:32 AM

Almace, these things aren't easy to get,

Took me 1 week to build a friend a 85 Almace, and he did half the work Solo. Its not really hard, it just takes dedication and perseverance, i believe anyone has the power to get it.

on the best/v/best thing, I was talking about not imposing any restrictions. Let each player gear to the best of their abilities.

Whats the point in a victory if its under specific conditions, and for a part of the game that will never return? (75 cap meritpo). Maybe he's just trying to verify his claims i assume... But it seems like a hollow victory

He should really challenge them to a 90-cap fight.

wish12oz

07-15-2011, 08:35 AM

He should really challenge them to a 90-cap fight.

I'm down for whatever, just tired of seeing people say RDM melee was better than it really was.

Thunderlips

07-15-2011, 08:44 AM

Right, though there's problems with statments like that as not all camps in ToAU were lolibri. Hagun sam was likely the Mamool JA camp issue. I donno, I'm not Starfox.

But when you mention 'Best vs best', what is the best for RDM? Who has 'the best'? I don't think anyone's actually collected the full potential. There is certainly gear out there for a RDM to work for. However, I think the biggest argument on the pro melee camp to SE is, if they're going to do that, they should also provide a meaningful use for it.

Excalibur ... these things aren't easy to get, yet they dangle them in front of Red Mages.

And the dangeling is not limited to just Relics either. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1XX3ZbVrLs)

I got an Excal, I don't see what the problem is :)

On a serious note however, which mamool camp are you looking into for this parse? There's MJSP which wasn't too hard and the Mamool camp above birds which really separated the men from the boys.

Karbuncle

07-15-2011, 08:45 AM

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/222778

I think this (Zelus Tiara for head perhaps!) would be the best RDM melee set i can think of. I'm probably forgetting some stuff... (Read: Anything new)

I think 90Mandau would be a better offhand over any other weapon because of its massive DPS, Almace90 Mainhand because of the great WS attached to it.

Thats my opinion, however.

Supersun

07-15-2011, 08:49 AM

Took me 1 week to build a friend a 85 Almace, and he did half the work Solo. Its not really hard, it just takes dedication and perseverance, i believe anyone has the power to get it.

on the best/v/best thing, I was talking about not imposing any restrictions. Let each player gear to the best of their abilities.

Whats the point in a victory if its under specific conditions, and for a part of the game that will never return? (75 cap meritpo). Maybe he's just trying to verify his claims i assume... But it seems like a hollow victory

He should really challenge them to a 90-cap fight.

I might be interested in a lvl 90 skirmish some time in the future against you outside of abyssea.
It would be a good way to see how jobs actually stand in regard to each other for future content.

Though I would need to grab a few important pieces that my set needs before I could be held to any decent standard.
(I only have the gimperian though, not the actual almace)

Hyrist

07-15-2011, 08:54 AM

He should really challenge them to a 90-cap fight.

It's not so much a challenge as it is for me data gathering. That's the essential difference in attitude, I suppose. But yeah, that would be more relevant to today. But I'm even further behind that point, and then there's the issue with Weapon Skills... I doubt I'd go Dagger/Sword optimally. Especially if I got an Almace. Probably Almace/DA sword depending on how balancing between more frequent CDC vs higher melee dps compares. Kind of hard to when OA2-4 and DA sword are non-exclusive.

on the best/v/best thing, I was talking about not imposing any restrictions. Let each player gear to the best of their abilities.

Curbing bitter words, that would result in just as hollow a victory. Whoever's further along in the gear has the best advantage. I mean, even wish was like "See, my gear isn't the best, that's an advantage to you!" and I was eyeing it going "Hmm... 3% haste advantage on gear I could have... 5 Acc on a STR ring, that would be nice." And I was only really paying attention to gear we both could have.

I mean wish mentions Mandau as the only hope for even 50%, which leads me to think the issue lies in base damage of a weapon. Which makes me wonder as to her opinion of lighter damage jobs such as PUP, DNC, and especialy THF during that time and whether or not they could reach that 80% or even the 50%, and what gear they would have for that reach.

That should probably be the better comparison points for 75.

Took me 1 week to build a friend a 85 Almace, and he did half the work Solo.

Most the intial legwork all the way up to base Almace isn't hard. It's the competition level on Sobek that makes it frustrating as all hell. As far as 'relic' level weapon goes, that's the obvious goal to go for due to the reletive ease comapred to true Relic and Mythic weapons.

Rearden

07-15-2011, 08:59 AM

Non-mandau THF not fighting Colibri was there for COR rolls

Edit: We're talking 75 @merits, PUP and DNC are not welcome

Karbuncle

07-15-2011, 09:04 AM

It's not so much a challenge as it is for me data gathering. That's the essential difference in attitude, I suppose. But yeah, that would be more relevant to today. But I'm even further behind that point, and then there's the issue with Weapon Skills... I doubt I'd go Dagger/Sword optimally. Especially if I got an Almace. Probably Almace/DA sword depending on how balancing between more frequent CDC vs higher melee dps compares. Kind of hard to when OA2-4 and DA sword are non-exclusive.

Curbing bitter words, that would result in just as hollow a victory. Whoever's further along in the gear has the best advantage. I mean, even wish was like "See, my gear isn't the best, that's an advantage to you!" and I was eyeing it going "Hmm... 3% haste advantage on gear I could have... 5 Acc on a STR ring, that would be nice." And I was only really paying attention to gear we both could have.

I mean wish mentions Mandau as the only hope for even 50%, which leads me to think the issue lies in base damage of a weapon. Which makes me wonder as to her opinion of lighter damage jobs such as PUP, DNC, and especialy THF during that time and whether or not they could reach that 80% or even the 50%, and what gear they would have for that reach.

That should probably be the better comparison points for 75.

Most the intial legwork all the way up to base Almace isn't hard. It's the competition level on Sobek that makes it frustrating as all hell. As far as 'relic' level weapon goes, that's the obvious goal to go for due to the reletive ease comapred to true Relic and Mythic weapons.

I'm still not sure I get what they're trying to prove by this. Is he trying to stick up to his parse?

I just don't see the logic is forcing someone to gear to someone elses standards and do a parse for a part of the game long dead. Im not saying you can't "Do it your way", I just don't think this is going to prove anything.

If anything it may validate his claim of what was possible at level 75 cap, But its a meaningless victory in a game at level 90. The real test should be trying to duplicate or best those results at level 90.

I just find absolutely no meaning in setting standards and purposefully mediocritizing(a made up word) your "opponent" for the sake of a parse. It should be Your best vs his Best.

You should both perform to your best standing, and let the results do the talking, even if you lose you could set a good baseline for some better geared RDM to take your place.

Swords

07-15-2011, 09:42 AM

I'm still not sure I get what they're trying to prove by this. Is he trying to stick up to his parse?

I just don't see the logic is forcing someone to gear to someone elses standards and do a parse for a part of the game long dead. Im not saying you can't "Do it your way", I just don't think this is going to prove anything.

If anything it may validate his claim of what was possible at level 75 cap, But its a meaningless victory in a game at level 90. The real test should be trying to duplicate or best those results at level 90.

I just find absolutely no meaning in setting standards and purposefully mediocritizing(a made up word) your "opponent" for the sake of a parse. It should be Your best vs his Best.

You should both perform to your best standing, and let the results do the talking, even if you lose you could set a good baseline for some better geared RDM to take your place.

I'm inclined to agree with you on that point Karb, but the challenge was set at 75 by others, so it makes perfect sense to deliberate in gear that was used at that level. Albeit I think the challenge is to make the perfect excuse to rub it in his and others face's anytime the word Melee and Mage are mentioned in the same sentence. That aside, I highly doubt they would even reconsider their opinion even if he made it anywhere close to the alloted 80%.

wish12oz

07-15-2011, 09:53 AM

I highly doubt they would even reconsider their opinion even if he made it anywhere close to the alloted 80%.

The whole point is that no RDM, no matter how well geared, will do anywhere near that to none-gimp DDs, if he does that I would change my opinion, but it simply won't happen. My SAM is gimp as heck, and I know I will still beat him by way more then that.

Doombringer

07-15-2011, 09:53 AM

this has honestly made me curious... what would you parse against at 90? sand sweepers are probably the most common mob but you can pretty much 1-shot them with a good ws.. and anything in abyssea will have varying levels as you go..

anybody that parses on carbuncle? my rdm hasn't been parsed since the colibri days, back on gilgamesh (i actually won, but it wasn't a real test to prove anything, it was just some guy who ran parser all the time. long story short the odds were unfairly in my favor, and i admit that.)

wish12oz

07-15-2011, 09:55 AM

Swords

07-15-2011, 10:12 AM

The whole point is that no RDM, no matter how well geared, will do anywhere near that to none-gimp DDs, if he does that I would change my opinion, but it simply won't happen. My SAM is gimp as heck, and I know I will still beat him by way more then that.

I wasn't naming anyone specific. While you may be willing to change your opinion if your proven wrong, we both know that there are nay-sayers no matter what evidence or proof is thrown at them. It's not just the whole RDM melee thing either, alot of concepts in this game are/were stagnated for the longest time by the same types of people until the majority of the yay-sayers vastly outweighed the nay-sayers, or until SE just flat out told us who was right and who was wrong.

Theoretically speaking, even if Hyrist won matching you or anyone else hit per hit, most probably wouldn't even glance at the data or give RDM any chance anyways.

Neisan_Quetz

07-15-2011, 10:50 AM

Math is hard.

Duelle

07-15-2011, 12:19 PM

While you may be willing to change your opinion if your proven wrong, we both know that there are nay-sayers no matter what evidence or proof is thrown at them.Well, far too few have been brave enough to shatter the "mold" in front of the naysayers, urinate on it and then challenge anyone to keep their naysayer mindset. Sadly, those that have and succeeded are game developers, not players.

Theoretically speaking, even if Hyrist won matching you or anyone else hit per hit, most probably wouldn't even glance at the data or give RDM any chance anyways.This is not because people choose to ignore evidence, but because groups stand to gain more with the RDM in support. That will continue to be the case until something major changes about the job.

The concentration should be on here and now, and the point of the matter is 'damage' isn't going to win RDM any hearts. Any hard evidence of them actually achieving that damage just comes with the arguments players like you bark any time it surfaces. So obviously the answer has to be something you can't deny or accuse your fellow DD's of sucking for: A utility.I'll continue to disagree with you here. Utility never, ever, makes up for lacking damage. It's a nice addition and contributes as both flavor and job/class identity, but it won't make up for lacking damage.

Supersun

07-15-2011, 06:24 PM

I'll continue to disagree with you here. Utility never, ever, makes up for lacking damage. It's a nice addition and contributes as both flavor and job/class identity, but it won't make up for lacking damage.

Now that's just not true, it all depends on how much utility and what type.

I mean Haste Samba is utility and it adds quite a bit more additional damage. More damage then SE would have normally been comfortable adding to Dancer (and they already add quite a bit to that job)

Duelle

07-15-2011, 07:25 PM

Now that's just not true, it all depends on how much utility and what type.

I mean Haste Samba is utility and it adds quite a bit more additional damage. More damage then SE would have normally been comfortable adding to Dancer (and they already add quite a bit to that job)Not to be crass, because I want to be proven wrong on that point, but I'll respond to that by saying "been there, done that, seen it fall flat on its face save for one situation out of over twenty". And it still didn't convince people to allow the class in question to front line if they wanted to.

Granted, this is me being jaded by past experience, but I've seen little to no evidence of the contrary. I'd like to see SE prove me wrong, though.

Seriha

07-15-2011, 09:20 PM

Well, I can't say the manifesto is promising when it comes to our martial aspect.

Hyrist

07-15-2011, 09:36 PM

Past experience, however, is kind of irrelevant in this angle of game.

The only real dividing line that keeps Red Mages in the back or things they can be allowed in the front in is pretty much the assumed 'difficulty' of mobs. These are the same arguments that kept lesser dedicated DD classes from meleeing.

I'll be as clear as possible of where I believe RDM's Melee allowance should be. The discretion of whether or not a Red Mage should be allowed to melee should be, more or less, in direct correlation with their Blue Mage Cousins. Meaning, if the Blue Mage hesitates to take out his swords to TP with, and sticks to his spells, Red Mage shoulden't be thinking about it.

Below that point, however. Whether through damage increase or Utility gains, RDM should have no issues taking to the front line.

Dulle believes this should come primarily through damage. I believe Utility is the more important aspect, and our Damage aspects are in need of only minor improvements comparatively.

There is the argument about Red Mage as a Support/Healer role. However, this is mainly a preference situation. Again, most situations in which this would be a heavy discussion would call for a White Mage as a main healer anyways. And again, if BLU hesitates to melee it, we'd be in the back anyways. So it all boils down to what jobs you bring to a situation.

inb4 'play [a different job] then'

As much as I understand the concept of putting your best foot forward for the team, there needs to be some allowance in that for personal tastes and styles.

That, and simply switching jobs will not fix this glaring problem. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1XX3ZbVrLs)

If Red Mages are going to get teased with new high end gear toys, they need to be given an acceptable use for them.

Hyrist

07-15-2011, 09:42 PM

Well, I can't say the manifesto is promising when it comes to our martial aspect.

We'll see how inadequate the things in the current .dats are first, honestly. If there is one thing I've figured about their updating is, is that the developers really don't keep a constant development pattern on any particular job. Rather that they work in 'projects' then analyze the success/failure of that project to gain ideas for the next patch.

Seriha

07-15-2011, 11:08 PM

We'll see how inadequate the things in the current .dats are first, honestly. If there is one thing I've figured about their updating is, is that the developers really don't keep a constant development pattern on any particular job. Rather that they work in 'projects' then analyze the success/failure of that project to gain ideas for the next patch.

I'd believe you if T2s still weren't broken.

Ironside

07-15-2011, 11:12 PM

I'll be as clear as possible of where I believe RDM's Melee allowance should be. The discretion of whether or not a Red Mage should be allowed to melee should be, more or less, in direct correlation with their Blue Mage Cousins. Meaning, if the Blue Mage hesitates to take out his swords to TP with, and sticks to his spells, Red Mage shoulden't be thinking about it.
I kinda agree with this, but I'd also base it more on the multitasking skill of the RDM in question. If they can melee while still maintaining their buffs and debuffs as though they weren't, I'd say for them to go ahead and melee; extra damage is extra damage. If they're slipping on their buff order though, I'd say they should stay back; I agree that utility is the more important aspect of RDM, so if the player is sacrificing utility for damage, they probably need to back off of the front lines.

That's how I see it, anyway. Feel free to nitpick that apart, all.

Hyrist

07-15-2011, 11:31 PM

I'm not holding too high of hopes either Seriha, to be honest. But I always get giddy over new toys.

I kinda agree with this, but I'd also base it more on the multitasking skill of the RDM in question. If they can melee while still maintaining their buffs and debuffs as though they weren't, I'd say for them to go ahead and melee; extra damage is extra damage. If they're slipping on their buff order though, I'd say they should stay back; I agree that utility is the more important aspect of RDM, so if the player is sacrificing utility for damage, they probably need to back off of the front lines.

Really depends on the situation really.

Let's use the example of Dynamis in it's current states. I take to the front lines to assist with Procing. I'll keep refreshes going as a high priority (note: this can get difficult if I'm the primary mage proc or not throwing into the mage party, if that's the case, I lean more towards back line and focus on that), but not hastes, as killing the monster faster with larger groups can wind up with the mob dead before the proc hits. And as the drop rate has such a severe difference between the two, you kind of want to discourage it.

Haste itself, outside Dynamis, depends on who else has the spell available, and how taxed is their MP vs the Refresh II you're giving them. I'll usually work that out between me and the other support jobs. As more and more Red Mages get their AF3 pieces and their +2, the easier it is for RDM to maintain buffs had have time for other things, so when that becomes more prominent on my end I'll have no problem taking more of that back. I tend to thoroughly enjoy multitasking myself.

However if I'm the sole healer? Weapons sheathed. That's usually not the case, however.

Zirael

07-16-2011, 03:24 AM

Well, I can't say the manifesto is promising when it comes to our martial aspect.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11485-FINAL-FANTASY-XI-Job-Adjustment%EF%BD%93-Manifesto
Take a good look at the pictures. RDM is the only one not wielding any meele weapon (even BRD has Twashtar). If you had any doubts till now, it should give you a hint which direction RDM is heading.
Sorry for semi-provocative text, but according to SE, we're supposed to make others demi-gods with our Haste and Refresh II, that's it. Enhancing & Enfeebling, RDM's new buzzwords :(

Hyrist

07-16-2011, 03:58 AM

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11485-FINAL-FANTASY-XI-Job-Adjustment%EF%BD%93-Manifesto
Take a good look at the pictures. RDM is the only one not wielding any meele weapon (even BRD has Twashtar). If you had any doubts till now, it should give you a hint which direction RDM is heading.
Sorry for semi-provocative text, but according to SE, we're supposed to make others demi-gods with our Haste and Refresh II, that's it. Enhancing & Enfeebling, RDM's new buzzwords :(

Funny, that, because I don't see Dancer or Blue Mage with their weapons either...

Zirael

07-16-2011, 04:03 AM

Funny, that, because I don't see Dancer or Blue Mage with their weapons either...
Dancer has some curved dagger on front side (very clearly visible) and Twashtar partially hidden on the back side. Blue Mage has some black pointy thingy around where a Mithra's tail would be. Unless I'm mistaken and that's not a thin sword.

Hyrist

07-16-2011, 04:12 AM

No, that would be the mithra's tail

It's called animation effects, it's nothing new. You can't see weapons during them normally.

Dancer's weapons can be seen because they're sheathed, which would indicate the Red Mage has a weapon drawn.

Note the staves on WHM, BLM, and SCH.

saevel

07-16-2011, 08:29 AM

Wow had to skip forward, couldn't stomach anymore of the BG trolls. Seriously, they had some dude dual boxing a RDM vs himself as a naked Mnk, the entire BG parse was rigged from the beginning.

I happened to ~be~ one of the people doing those parses, and that "80%" number isn't full time DDing, it's DDing + Dia III spam + haste 1 person (other then yourself) + refresh 1 healer + cure IV bombing whenever possible. If I was able to full time focus then I could reach 90% or in some cases beat then. I attribute this more to the fact that I'm a hyperactive and borderline AHDH when doing combat in FFXI. Still if I can get 80% of BB / Full Usukukane monks, monks that I knew really well and were in the top 5% of the gaming populating, then it's definitely possible for other RDM's to perform as an adequate DD that has utility.

As for the entire "why take 80% when you can have 100%", it's a trap. The argument actually has no meaning because it preemptively subtracts from the RDM and limits them to "80%" while ignoring what they gain. In effect it's saying a RDM without MP, without Dia, without Cure IV, sleeps, are all only "80%" and that the other nameless DD is given all it's options / ability's at 100%. RDM's sacrifice damage potential for utility. Back in the day's of "6-man" groups I would do,

DD (/WAR or /SAM)
DD (/WAR or /SAM)
DD (/WAR or /SAM)
RDM/NIN (me)
BRD/NIN (puller / buffer)
WHM (healer)

RDM doesn't replacing a DD, and thus the entire nonsense (80% vs 100%) bull sh!t. It was replacing the BRD/WHM otherwise known as the "lazy BRD". Dia III would provide similar to if not more then the attack bonus of the BRD songs, Refresh would supplant their refresh songs, Cure IV would be better then any curing they put out, and melee damage would be the icing on the cake. If mobs needed crowd control then the RDM could Sleep I / II / Bind / Gravity the mobs. The only two jobs that could possibly give a better deal is a DNC or COR, and then it's boiling down to how good each build was and how good the player was. The entire point was that each member had assigned roles and responsibility's.

Of course that's all level 75, nowadays there is absolutely no reason to argue this anymore. SE designed the game post 75 to not restrict people to only a few "best" jobs. Everyone can contribute something and there are multiple ways to accomplish every goal. It's us the player base who is somehow punishing each other and messing things up. There are times when I think this game is too complex for it's player-base, it seems more and more people want just three to four actual "jobs" instead of a diverse selection.

cidbahamut

07-16-2011, 08:32 AM

edit: nvm, taking my foot out of my mouth.

Supersun

07-16-2011, 08:46 AM

Well...the abyssea proc system didn't help with that.

I mean the whole issue is a hindsight is 20/20 type thing, but certainly something to improve on in the future (which they seem to be working on).

-----

Also I could only laugh when I reread that "a rdm could only do 20% of a Sam's DD" was suggested. I mean really? A samurai can do 5x the damage of a Red Mage? Seriously? Unless a player has some SERIOUS accuracy issues or is wearing (and receiving) no haste to a full 80% haste DD not even a melee smn should be getting killed by 5x. You can only go so far until pDif and fStr cap and there isn't an unlimited amount of Store TP in the world.

If ANY job is getting killed by 5x then that job is gimp >.>

wish12oz

07-16-2011, 09:25 AM

If I was able to full time focus then I could reach 90% or in some cases beat then.
Still if I can get 80% of BB / Full Usukukane monks, monks that I knew really well and were in the top 5% of the gaming population

I'm calling BS on both of these statements, RDM could not put out that much damage, especially not with the gear you were reported to have. They were gimp, or doing something wrong, and were definitely not in the top 5%. Which is why I proposed to someone advocating it to come parse me and I will show them they are wrong.
Which BTW, When do you plan on logging in Hyrist?

Duelle

07-16-2011, 09:30 AM

Past experience, however, is kind of irrelevant in this angle of game.Seeing that the "problem" is not exclusive to this game, I beg to differ.

I'll be as clear as possible of where I believe RDM's Melee allowance should be. The discretion of whether or not a Red Mage should be allowed to melee should be, more or less, in direct correlation with their Blue Mage Cousins. Meaning, if the Blue Mage hesitates to take out his swords to TP with, and sticks to his spells, Red Mage shouldn't be thinking about it.I agree here. So long as the damage between both is comparable and surpass the tertiary benefits (buffs and enfeebling). Right now Blue Mage has high-damaging spells and potent enfeebles to fall back on when they can't swing, and all RDM has left is pretty much cures and buffs under the same conditions.

Duelle believes this should come primarily through damage. I believe Utility is the more important aspect, and our Damage aspects are in need of only minor improvements comparatively.I'm fine with wanting utility, but I simply feel that it alone will not make up for lacking damage nor will it justify front-lining. Ideally, utility and damage should both be buffed to some regard, even mixing said utility with front-lining to make the transition smoother.

Supersun

07-16-2011, 09:45 AM

especially not with the gear you were reported to have.

We had this cool weapon called the joyeuse that had a relic level DPS and was stupidly broken at lvl 75 especially against little pink bird.

Combine it with the dagger that the majority of thieves were using and you had the main reason Rdm could melee at 75.

Gear or not a weapon that increases your WS frequency by ~45% is no joke especially when it's piercing.

Aurara

07-16-2011, 09:52 AM

We had this cool weapon called the joyeuse that had a relic level DPS and was stupidly broken at lvl 75 especially against little pink bird.

Combine it with the dagger that the majority of thieves were using and you had the main reason Rdm could melee at 75.

Gear or not a weapon that increases your WS frequency by ~45% is no joke especially when it's piercing.

Except rdm still couldn't put out the kinds of #'s you are saying, and i have done rdm/nin blau/joytoy on colibri, it doesnt work, lol.

Aurara

07-16-2011, 09:59 AM

Wow had to skip forward, couldn't stomach anymore of the BG trolls. Seriously, they had some dude dual boxing a RDM vs himself as a naked Mnk, the entire BG parse was rigged from the beginning.

Lol, what? why do you think it was dualboxed because the rdm got crushed? Seriously, grasping for straws!

I happened to ~be~ one of the people doing those parses, and that "80%" number isn't full time DDing, it's DDing + Dia III spam + haste 1 person (other then yourself) + refresh 1 healer + cure IV bombing whenever possible. If I was able to full time focus then I could reach 90% or in some cases beat then. I attribute this more to the fact that I'm a hyperactive and borderline AHDH when doing combat in FFXI. Still if I can get 80% of BB / Full Usukukane monks, monks that I knew really well and were in the top 5% of the gaming populating, then it's definitely possible for other RDM's to perform as an adequate DD that has utility.

No, you're lying because an usu/BB MNK would crush you in DPS alone without factoring in WS dmg.

RDM doesn't replacing a DD, and thus the entire nonsense (80% vs 100%) bull sh!t. It was replacing the BRD/WHM otherwise known as the "lazy BRD". Dia III would provide similar to if not more then the attack bonus of the BRD songs, Refresh would supplant their refresh songs, Cure IV would be better then any curing they put out, and melee damage would be the icing on the cake. If mobs needed crowd control then the RDM could Sleep I / II / Bind / Gravity the mobs. The only two jobs that could possibly give a better deal is a DNC or COR, and then it's boiling down to how good each build was and how good the player was. The entire point was that each member had assigned roles and responsibility's.

So much is wrong with all of this. Bards dont sing minuets, they sing marchx2, you're automatically gimp if you use minuets. Refresh? how lol? its the exact same as ballad 1+2...Yes, sleep/bind the birds that reflect magic!

Supersun

07-16-2011, 10:05 AM

Except rdm still couldn't put out the kinds of #'s you are saying, and i have done rdm/nin blau/joytoy on colibri, it doesnt work, lol.

Truth be told I don't know how a RDM would perform, probably in the 15-20% range if I had to make a logical guess(if that).

OBJECTION!!

Aurara

07-16-2011, 10:08 AM

Lol you think you caught me contradicting myself? I never specified what colibri i was doing it on, but good going bro.

Edit: saying I did it on colibri was probably not smart on my behalf, but my statement holds strong, and i know the capabilities of a rdm, no snot like you who prides themselves on trying to outwit and fool a BG shark such as myself is going to do anything but dance around foolishly and go "teehee look at me i think i made them mad" gg bro.

Doombringer

07-16-2011, 11:31 AM

you do realize that he's comparing himself to the SECOND bard, right? the first bard sings march and the second bard sings.....more march? no?

this isn't really a debate i wanted in on but it's like you're not even reading what you reply to...

Aurara

07-16-2011, 11:35 AM

Greatguardian

07-16-2011, 11:40 AM

I have a hard time believing a RDM can keep 6x Hastes, 1-2 Refreshes, Dia 3s on *every* mob, full Cures for both bards and the melee (or the melee, the bard, and the Cor) while finding time in there to actually swing his sword in a party that is actually any good.

Read: Both bards are pulling, the entire area is being cleared, melees are riding Hasso like good little boys and girls, and monsters are dead in 10 seconds tops. A distracted DD wouldn't even have time to pull out his weapon on every fight in a good party. And a RDM is supposedly able to handle near-constant casting while being able to draw their swords and deal 80% of the damage of a real DD?

Bullshit. I'd even venture to say that a RDM doing its support job properly would be running into severe MP issues if they were using a non-mage sub, completely ignoring the time lost trying to whack things. Going from /SCH to /NIN is a huge efficiency drop.

Edit: This too

Taking a 2nd brd over a COR is pretty stupid.

And a COR can pretty handily decimate a RDM on the parse. Example: Brd/Cor(me)/Nin(Noelel)/Mnk(Krispy)/Drg(Sasumi)/idkmage Greater Colibri parse. Krispy is a member of Excellence ls, so it's pretty much a given that he's high-end.

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/537d9cee2cbb1619656ca3140aced0ba.png

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/7460f72c77801650ec5e3ed5065f1d14.png

That's while being cheap and saving cards =/ and my Cor isn't even super high end to boot.

Hyrist

07-16-2011, 12:13 PM

Could you guys, you know, take this debate where it matters, like back to 2008?

Let me end this right here in favor of the BG guys so they can go home.

I have a hard time believing a RDM can keep 6x Hastes, 1-2 Refreshes, Dia 3s on *every* mob, full Cures for both bards and the melee (or the melee, the bard, and the Cor) while finding time in there to actually swing his sword in a party that is actually any good.

You're correct. Even in the Starfox Parse he did not, once, admit to keeping up a full haste cycle. In fact, his function was, like as described previously (that Saevel stated at his first post, which clearly points out that you're not reading in full) that the position in conflict was the 'second support'. Assuming a 4 DD + BRD/COR + Healer, with the RDM/NIN taking the 6th slot.

Haste is covered by the healer, with the exception of the RDM/NIN who hastes himself. RDM/NIN's casting duties relies mostly on maintaining self buffs (Haste, Refresh, Utsusemi and Enspell.) And maintaining a constant Dia II/III on the party target. If the healer had no native refresh, RDM/NIN gave it to them. Also, cure assistance was given in times where needed. (Say the WHM was buffing someone and RDM had an opportunity to slip in a cure to save the WHM some time/mp/risk) As well as crowd control during times the puller (likely brd) had difficulty.

My primary investment in this situation was, at that time, to get a party function that allowed me and my fiancee at the time (WHM) an opportunity to merit together on our favorite jobs. This was the best format available, one that Starfox was putting to practice before I had conceptualized it.

Tear it apart however you wish, but do remember that bard+cor parties were not always available to everyone even at that time, and doing so would have kept our characters apart (As if the RDM+WHM stigma itself wasn't enough.).

Oh, to answer the obvious question: I was leveling BLU at the time ,but breaks got put onto that project due to many RL problems. (I'm only now beginning to work together a possible return to BLU, 3 years later and bereft the fiance no less.)

Greatguardian

07-16-2011, 12:47 PM

I don't care what/why you did something in some 8-person party, or 7? I'm obviously not reading in full so please fill me in on how 4 DDs, a Brd, a Cor, a Healer, and a Rdm can fit in a party. Or just 4 DDs, a Brd or Cor, a Healer, and a Rdm works out. Is this an outside healer?

Regardless, I never claimed that someone supposedly did that. I'm saying exactly the opposite. If a RDM is going to be expected to perform support duties, there is no way in hell they will have time to DD worth a crap. And if they are not providing support/healing duties? Whose spot are they taking? A Bard's? A Corsair's? Or a DD's?

All 3 will contribute significantly more to a group than adding a RDMDD. I'm not really sure how people are rationalizing trading a second Bard for a RDM. It's "just" Minuets? Like RCB is "just" food, right? And Dia3 supposedly makes up for this? You're forgetting yet again that RDM isn't contributing Dia 3. It's contributing the difference in value between Dia 2 and Dia 3, because any WHM or BRD worth their salt is already hitting every mob with that enfeeble.

If you want to talk about throwing a lackluster job into a lackluster party and getting lackluster results, go ahead. It's apparently the goal to bring everything down to the level of the lowest common denominator because some people are completely incapable of knowing people with Bard or Corsair leveled. But that has no bearing on an environment where the party itself is not total crap.

Bagel

07-16-2011, 12:53 PM

Ah blinded by love. I knew rational thought couldn't have led you to claim a rdm could hang with a melee dd.

Doombringer

07-16-2011, 01:53 PM

if i may play devils advocate for a moment..

lets take a hypothetical party. DD/DD/DD/BRD/BRD/RDM. now you can say whatever you want about lolsecond brd or nub get a cor, but you all know this was a very common and acceptable setup.

now.. lets just say.. you drop the second brd for a meleeing rdm, and fill the old rdms slot with any deidcated healer. so you end up with something like this.

DD/DD/DD/BRD/meleeRDM/WHM

now.. how different are these parties really? the second has better healing and equivelant longevity (since either way the primary healer has 2x ballad and refresh on him)

so the big question is damage. obviously the difference between dia2 and dia3 is less good than the loss of minuet, and the rdm might be casting that ANYWAY.. but people seem to disregard that the rdm is doing at least SOME damage on his own. so it's not the rdm vs any DD. it's all of the dmg the rdm does vs the difference in dmg of the other 3 DD's with minuet vs without.

i don't think the sky would fall.... the only significant weak point i see here is, potentially, pulling.

just sayin'

Greatguardian

07-16-2011, 02:12 PM

The group is losing a ton of overall damage by adding a Red Mage over a 2x Minuet Bard. The difference in healing is negligible since neither party is going to have deaths if they are even half good.

You're looking at adding in one Red Mage's damage (who is not getting attack buffs btw, Marches/Haste only) as opposed to adding 2x Minuets to 3 Heavy DDs.

Would the "sky fall"? Subjective. Is the exchange anywhere near equivalent? No, it really isn't. Think of it this way. What would have happened if a THF replaced that minuetBRD? Exactly. And Thf is a stronger DD than Rdm to boot.

That's not even getting into the business of Corsair, which was significantly better in that slot than both Bard and Red Mage combined. Corsair is a stronger DD than Red Mage, and can give a buff comparable to Minuet while also boosting EXP and giving the mage a second Refresh.

wish12oz

07-16-2011, 02:14 PM

I always liked
DD DD BRD BRD COR Healer
But it required very good DDs!

Greatguardian

07-16-2011, 02:21 PM

I always liked
DD DD BRD BRD COR Healer
But it required very good DDs!

I was the Cor for one of these once. It was absolutely divine. I wish I parsed it. Rather, I think I might've, let's see.

Edit: Okay, yeah, I still have some of it. This is ye olde 2009, MJSP.

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/5aa161358aecfbf5c7eb17399d8bac90.png

If a Corsair, fully buffed, was doing 50%~ the damage of the DDs, there is no way in hell that a RDM is going to be doing anywhere near 80%.

Supersun

07-16-2011, 03:14 PM

Would the "sky fall"? Subjective.

Not really, because in both of the set-ups above as long as everyone doesn't suck you should already be at the point where you are waiting on the Colibri to respawn anyway.

Greatguardian

07-16-2011, 03:20 PM

Not really, because in both of the set-ups above as long as everyone doesn't suck you should already be at the point where you are waiting on the Colibri to respawn anyway.

In a Whm Brd Rdm DD DD DD setup? I'll believe it when I see it.

Seriha

07-16-2011, 03:20 PM

As for the entire "why take 80% when you can have 100%", it's a trap. The argument actually has no meaning because it preemptively subtracts from the RDM and limits them to "80%" while ignoring what they gain. In effect it's saying a RDM without MP, without Dia, without Cure IV, sleeps, are all only "80%" and that the other nameless DD is given all it's options / ability's at 100%. RDM's sacrifice damage potential for utility. Back in the day's of "6-man" groups I would do...

It's hardly a trap. When your party is 5/6 people and it's time to fill that sixth spot with damage, it's not the time to be looking for emergency cures, a Dia your healer or 'lazy bard' could throw up, or even a secondary haster. They just want people who will concentrate on dishing hurt. Concentrating solely on that task, there's no bones about it, RDM fell behind due to native characteristics and gear options.

So, while Abyssea has changed EXPing dynamics from 6 to a possible 18, that 5/6 dilemma still remains for smaller events like BCs. When hitting the search list for a DD, RDM won't be on the radar outside of Azure kills. If the job is supposed to be suitably versatile, it's failing in that task if it will never be invited for an aspect of that versatility. Haters gonna hate, claiming that's how it should be or nothing could be done without godmode, but that only shows their lack of thinking.

wish12oz

07-16-2011, 06:25 PM

Not really, because in both of the set-ups above as long as everyone doesn't suck you should already be at the point where you are waiting on the Colibri to respawn anyway.

Suck less and kill wivres and colibri

Duelle

07-16-2011, 06:32 PM

It's hardly a trap. When your party is 5/6 people and it's time to fill that sixth spot with damage, it's not the time to be looking for emergency cures, a Dia your healer or 'lazy bard' could throw up, or even a secondary haster. They just want people who will concentrate on dishing hurt. Concentrating solely on that task, there's no bones about it, RDM fell behind due to native characteristics and gear options.This is the crux of my damage argument. You're not looking for the utility as part of the package. Utility generally plays the role of "well, that really helped" when the party is in a pinch. It is never a point of consideration when putting the party together. The "here and the now" of the job/class is what is measured when building the group. In the old days we also saw the variation, which was "good groups don't run into X, so Y piece of utility is moot. Now get in the back and refresh me".

If the job is supposed to be suitably versatile, it's failing in that task if it will never be invited for an aspect of that versatility. Haters gonna hate, claiming that's how it should be or nothing could be done without godmode, but that only shows their lack of thinking.Well, yes. The devs seem to be bent on giving everyone very different roles for the sake of making the jobs different rather than create templates or criteria that allow said jobs to partake on certain roles.

The main issue is the fact that the hybrids become tricky (but not impossible) to balance at that point. I wouldn't mind seeing multiple roles open up for RDM, BLU, PLD and DRK, but the developers seem to take issue with that for some reason.

Eeek

07-16-2011, 09:52 PM

In a Whm Brd Rdm DD DD DD setup? I'll believe it when I see it.

Well, he's half right.

Like everyone else, I spent more time than I would've liked at Colibri camps, but as a pulling BRD. It's not a good setup, but WHM BRD RDM DD DD DD could certainly clear all the birds at the middle camp. What that party setup couldn't do is kill the Wivres, pull from the bottom birds camp, and pull Mamool from up top in addition to keeping all the middle birds cleared.

RDM is a waste of a party slot in that configuration, DDing or otherwise.

When your party is 5/6 people and it's time to fill that sixth spot with damage, it's not the time to be looking for emergency cures, a Dia your healer or 'lazy bard' could throw up, or even a secondary haster.

Wow, you'd have to be crazy to pass up a second BRD for that 6th spot, especially if meriting on Nyzul Mamool or at MMJSP North. 114 attack from double minuets (and the situational madrigal when dealing with THF/NIN Mamools, depending on the quality of DDs) is not insignificant. And I guarantee you that the 'lazy BRD' role at Nyzul Mamool or MMJSP North was anything but lazy.

Seriha

07-17-2011, 12:05 AM

You're assuming the hypothetical party wasn't 2x BRD, healer, 2x DDs already. Overall, the 'lazy BRD' role was the one who'd just sit at the camp while the other pulled. Would you get the occasional double pullers? Sure, but then that also starts stepping into outside healer territory, which I dare say wasn't common in all the time I spent poking peckers and such. So, yeah, find something else in your unerring fascination with me to nitpick.

Aurara

07-17-2011, 12:28 AM

No...it's not being a lazy brd if you help cure the DDs/sleep incoming mobs so that the other brd can keep pulling/give them time to cast minuets(in my case i would have the "lazy brd" as you put it sing marches because they're always at camp). You dont need an outside healer unless its a mule or something, but these kinds of parties certainly weren't "rare" as you claimed them to be.

saevel

07-17-2011, 12:50 AM

It was determined a long long LONG time ago that 3xDD + 2x support + 1x healer was the optimal setup as 4x DD 1xsupport 1x healer is simply too much of a burden on the healer / support and thus forces people to play defensibly.

It's hardly a trap. When your party is 5/6 people and it's time to fill that sixth spot with damage, it's not the time to be looking for emergency cures, a Dia your healer or 'lazy bard' could throw up, or even a secondary haster.
False argument. You failed to define the 5/6 nor what the required roles were of the 6th spot, and thus you can dictate a false argument with whatever rules / conclusions you want. That is dishonest.

A RDM/NIN will produce more total damage output then a BRD/WHM, this isn't even up for debate. The first BRD is already singing march x 2, this leaves the 2nd BRD to sing Attack songs and refresh the healer. Dia III is 15% defense down, or 17.6% attack up. At 500 attack every DD would receive the equivalent of 88 attack, at 600 attack they would receive 105.6 and at 700 attack (now) they would receive 123.2 attack. This combined with the 80% melee damage easily surpassed double attack buffs to three DD's. Don't even attempt to argue this, it's already been demonstrated both on paper and in practice. The only jobs that could do similar were COR (buffs + ranged shots) and DNC (haste samba + melee damage + curing). A melee BRD/NIN could technically do similar, there was actually a small following amongst the BRD's to do this because they saw the same opportunity we did.

Anyhow as I've said before, this is all merit parties at 75, which don't exist anymore and thus the above points are moot. If we ~really~ wanted to get technical a RDM now can do something nobody else could, and that's provide a 17.6% attack buff to every DD in the alliance. I do this all the time on abyssal super boss's and tier III / IV VWNMs. This is where I was really hoping SE would go with, provide us with self-buffs that would enable us to lower the targets Def / VIT / Agi / Defense / Magic Defense / Magic Evasion and so forth. In this way we would enable the entire alliance to perform better, while also dealing damage.

Aurara

07-17-2011, 12:59 AM

Except COR was better because it did more dmg, gave better buffs and raised exp/hr.

Eeek

07-17-2011, 01:08 AM

So, yeah, find something else in your unerring fascination with me to nitpick.

It's not my fault you regularly put forth incorrect claims or misworded statements.

When your party is 5/6 people and it's time to fill that sixth spot with damage, it's not the time to be looking for emergency cures, a Dia your healer or 'lazy bard' could throw up, or even a secondary haster.

The implication of this statement is that said hypothetical party already has one BRD. Otherwise, why would said party, assuming they wanted a real merit party, even consider inviting a 'lazy' supporting BRD? They'd instead invite a pulling BRD. If the party already had two BRDs, no sensible party would ever consider adding a 3rd BRD over a 3rd DD or a COR.

You're playing semantic games to backpedal away from an implied misstatement that 'a 2nd supporting BRD is less useful than an additional DD'. It's simply not true, especially at the Nyzul Mamool and MMJSP North camps where the 2nd BRD's support capacities from /WHM were more useful. Unlike Colibri, Mamool were definitely capable of dealing real damage.

And yes, it wasn't uncommon for the 2nd BRD to help pull in exceptional merit parties. Hell, even as a single BRD I intentionally and regularly linked mobs just to give myself an extra 5-10 seconds at camp. On that point, how does double pulling even relate to outside healers in the first place?

Eeek

07-17-2011, 01:14 AM

This combined with the 80% melee damage easily surpassed double attack buffs to three DD's. Don't even attempt to argue this, it's already been demonstrated both on paper and in practice.

Sorry, it will be argued. Sure, RDM/NIN may approach 80% of a average DD, but they will never be in the same ballpark as real DDs that are well-geared and well-played.

It's why Hyrist hasn't logged on for two days and counting.

Deadvinta

07-17-2011, 02:26 AM

Giving RDM a Weaponskill with 4.0fTP, 30%STR/50%MND mod (Magical WS with INT mod is just all the better), Magical, element/Debuff based on current Enspell. But have it mod with TP.

I.e

100% - - - 200% - - - 300%
4.0 - - - - 4.5 - - - - - - 4.75

Secondly, a Debuff for the WS could Depend on the Element. I.E with "Enfire" it would inflict Plague, With Enwater it would inflict Poison, With EnStone it would inflict Slow, so on and so forth.

(Secondary Idea is optional)

Disregarding the en-spell association with this weaponskill idea, I think it would just be great if RDM got Sanguine Blade natively. Modifiers are STR MND and a very potent INT modifier.

Supersun

07-17-2011, 02:40 AM

It's why Hyrist hasn't logged on for two days and counting.

Obviously, THAT'S the reason.

It clearly can't have anything to possibly do with a RL schedule.

You know Wish could always organize a time for both parties to meet instead of just waiting there searching for Hyrist all day.

Greatguardian

07-17-2011, 02:40 AM

It was determined a long long LONG time ago that 3xDD + 2x support + 1x healer was the optimal setup as 4x DD 1xsupport 1x healer is simply too much of a burden on the healer / support and thus forces people to play defensibly.

Yes.

False argument. You failed to define the 5/6 nor what the required roles were of the 6th spot, and thus you can dictate a false argument with whatever rules / conclusions you want. That is dishonest.

Yes.

A RDM/NIN will produce more total damage output then a BRD/WHM, this isn't even up for debate.

Yes it is.

The first BRD is already singing march x 2, this leaves the 2nd BRD to sing Attack songs and refresh the healer. Dia III is 15% defense down, or 17.6% attack up. At 500 attack every DD would receive the equivalent of 88 attack, at 600 attack they would receive 105.6 and at 700 attack (now) they would receive 123.2 attack. This combined with the 80% melee damage easily surpassed double attack buffs to three DD's. Don't even attempt to argue this, it's already been demonstrated both on paper and in practice.

No. Very much wrong. The Red Mage is not contributing 15% Defense Down from Dia 3. They are contributing the difference in potency between Dia 2 and Dia 3, which is (15% - 10.35% = ) 4.65% Defense Down. This does NOT equate to anywhere near the benefit of Minuets. You're also still assuming that a Red Mage can keep 80% pace with a heavy DD, which I am highly suspect of. See my parse on a previous page where a Corsair (a significantly stronger DD than RDM) parsed 50% of a WAR and 50% of a DRG in a fully buffed party.

The only jobs that could do similar were COR (buffs + ranged shots) and DNC (haste samba + melee damage + curing). A melee BRD/NIN could technically do similar, there was actually a small following amongst the BRD's to do this because they saw the same opportunity we did.

Yes. These jobs are incredibly powerful buffers. Corsair can do more damage than Red Mage, while adding unique and powerful buffs and raising EXP/hr. Dancer can stack onto the DD's already high Haste levels and, potentially, cap them (25 + 15 + 20 + 10 + 10 = 80%). Red Mage's 4.65% Defense Down is not touching either of these numbers.

Anyhow as I've said before, this is all merit parties at 75, which don't exist anymore and thus the above points are moot. If we ~really~ wanted to get technical a RDM now can do something nobody else could, and that's provide a 17.6% attack buff to every DD in the alliance. I do this all the time on abyssal super boss's and tier III / IV VWNMs. This is where I was really hoping SE would go with, provide us with self-buffs that would enable us to lower the targets Def / VIT / Agi / Defense / Magic Defense / Magic Evasion and so forth. In this way we would enable the entire alliance to perform better, while also dealing damage.

This still relies on Red Mage being the only person in the entire Alliance with access to a single Dia spell. If there is even one White Mage, one Bard, one Scholar, or one Black Mage with Rdm or Whm sub, there will be Dia 2 on every monster already. If there isn't? That's a player problem. Red Mage is not the only mage job allowed to cast its enfeebles.

Supersun

07-17-2011, 03:31 AM

(Nitpick: 4.65% defense down could technically beat 2x minuet given if there already enough defense down on the mob in the first place)

Aurara

07-17-2011, 03:33 AM

Its not beating what cor buffs could do, or what haste samba would do for the party's overall dmg.

Supersun

07-17-2011, 04:05 AM

Shits situational

...this just isn't that situation

Greatguardian

07-17-2011, 04:06 AM

(Nitpick: 4.65% defense down could technically beat 2x minuet given if there already enough defense down on the mob in the first place)

You're inverted. 4.65% defense down would only beat 2x Minuet if the monster had some extremely high Defense value (as in, significantly higer than anything that exists in the entire game, so practically never), or if cRatio became capped either way in which case they would be equal. The upgrade from Dia 2 to Dia 3 will never "beat" Minuets on EXP mobs.

Aurara

07-17-2011, 04:07 AM

Shits situational

...this just isn't that situation

What? Are you really saying replace a DNC with 5/5 haste samba merits or COR buffs with a melee rdm? What is situational about that? oh right, NOTHING.

Supersun

07-17-2011, 04:43 AM

You're inverted. 4.65% defense down would only beat 2x Minuet if the monster had some extremely high Defense value (as in, significantly higer than anything that exists in the entire game, so practically never), or if cRatio became capped either way in which case they would be equal. The upgrade from Dia 2 to Dia 3 will never "beat" Minuets on EXP mobs.

That's why I said it was a nitpick

Unless demons in dynamis xarcabard start becoming the new exp hot spot.

I've really never understood why even the toughest monsters in this game have pretty pathetic defenses. I mean we do have the means to hit decent pDifs on mobs that could have up to over 2k defense and this is assuming attack caps at 999
(jury is still technically out on that one unless something new has been found out).

(Whm+Rdm I still believe is a terrible combo. DD, DD, DD, Dnc, Rdm, Brd is where it's at imo)

saevel

07-17-2011, 04:51 AM

Soo the counter argument to dia III is putting it on the healer? That is some seriousl lolz and just goes to show that you guys aren't even trying to think of a real situation and are instead just trolling.
Dia II 30MP, 27 with /SCH
Monster dies in 30s = 600 MP per 10 min (540 as /SCH).
Monster dies in 25s = 720 MP per 10 min (648 as /SCH).

You actually wanting to put that MP burden on a job who's already spamming cure / curagas on the three /WAR or Hasso DD's and who's also Hasting three people? The only sensible person to do that is the lazy BRD, although then your cutting out their healing as they don't have enough MP to keep that up.

And BTW, if your crazy enough to try to put it on the healing RDM,
45MP, 41 as /SCH, Dia III
30s per kill = 900MP per 10min, 820 as /SCH,
25s per kill = 1080MP per 10min, 984 as /SCH.

Yeah .....

saevel

07-17-2011, 04:56 AM

But honestly this is getting boring. Every argument fronted was debated and defeated three to four years ago, then rehashed every year after that. It's become like religion, people will believe whatever it is they want to believe, then they'll selectively chose which arguments support their belief and disparage any counter-arguments that dispute their chose belief. It's why I for the most part stopped trying to convince people and instead just did it over and over again. Eventually the haters shut up as they had no ground to stand on.

Aurara

07-17-2011, 04:59 AM

I kept buffs up at 75, as well as dia'd every single mob, suck less, get better gear, or better DDs.

Greatguardian

07-17-2011, 05:04 AM

I kept buffs up at 75, as well as dia'd every single mob, suck less, get better gear, or better DDs.

Seriously, this. Keeping Dia up is hard? Really? That's the counterargument?

So what if it's using a lot of MP over time? Between Refresh, Ballads, and Evoker's if your party doesn't suck, you aren't exactly hurting on MP (3 + 3 + 3 + 2/tick gear at 75 is 1,832 MP recovered in 8 minutes 20 seconds). Oh yes, and Convert is an 8 minute 20 second ability, not 10 minute.

Seriha

07-17-2011, 05:18 AM

It's not my fault you regularly put forth incorrect claims or misworded statements.Hey, I'll give you "misworded" in this case, since I was thinking from the perspective I later elaborated and the 2x BRD thing was typically part of the optimum set up back in the day. Indulge me with incorrect claims, though. Apparently I have years of bull on Alla for you to pick from (ya know, obfuscating 'n all), so shouldn't take too long. And since I never claimed to be immune to mistakes, hey, maybe you might teach me something. That's your modus opperandi or someshit, right?

I have a pretty good idea what you'll find, though, and I strongly suspect it's been more of an opinion or even personal experience that's rubbed you the wrong way than any kind of statistical snafu, because I'm fairly sure you actually haven't played with me to garner an opinion there. So yeah, be mad I advocate RDM melee enhancements, that CoP was a poorly designed expansion for numerous reasons, that Empyreans don't just fall into the laps of anyone that logs, that myself and others aren't a fan of your little other-forum circlejerk, that people can share info without being demeaning idjits, that pinning and other solo exploits are bull, and so on. I'll tell you my biggest flaw, right here and right now.

I want FFXI to be better. Disagree with the hows and whys, sure, but that's the fact behind my opinions. Otherwise, I'm pretty curious about this grudge you've been building. Grudge might be a strong word, but I don't think you have a crush on me, either.

saevel

07-17-2011, 05:45 AM

Seriously, this. Keeping Dia up is hard? Really? That's the counterargument?

So what if it's using a lot of MP over time? Between Refresh, Ballads, and Evoker's if your party doesn't suck, you aren't exactly hurting on MP (3 + 3 + 3 + 2/tick gear at 75 is 1,832 MP recovered in 8 minutes 20 seconds). Oh yes, and Convert is an 8 minute 20 second ability, not 10 minute.

Not hard, impossible due to MP constraints. The faster you kill the more expensive it gets. Your spamming Cure IV and keeping haste's up. You can jump up and down all you want and resort to the "your a gimp!!!01010101 orz" argument, but it's been done to death already and your just bull sh1ting.

Neisan_Quetz

07-17-2011, 06:19 AM

Pchan already did the math on it and it wasn't impossible. Like heck I remember where it is though. Required full vert merits for Dia 3.

Concerned4FFxi

07-17-2011, 06:41 AM

i think tier3 en spell would be best as a 99 merit because drk/pld get a tier2 equalivant, tier3 would restore the balance

Greatguardian

07-17-2011, 06:46 AM

The faster you kill, the less MP you use in Cures. Pecking Flurry should almost never go off ever unless the Corsair is the only one on the bird (Joyeuse/Mkris are very TP feedy weapons that deal low TP phase damage), especially with Elegy. I can't really think of a reason not to have full Vert merits anyways.

Eeek

07-17-2011, 09:26 AM

Obviously, THAT'S the reason.

It clearly can't have anything to possibly do with a RL schedule.

You know Wish could always organize a time for both parties to meet instead of just waiting there searching for Hyrist all day.

As soon as Wish and Aurara challenged Hyrist to a synced Level 75 parse, he must have hurt himself backpedaling as hard as he did. That's the problem with breeding poor ideas without a critical eye in an insular place like the Alla RDM Forum - most everything falls to pieces when exposed to reality and the scrutiny of outsiders. Even Starfox's revered parses immediately fell apart when examined.

And when a prominent melee RDM enthusiast was challenged to substantiate that forum's viewpoints in the real world (so to speak), he backpedaled hard enough to make heads spin. The oft-cited belief that 'a melee RDM can do 80% of the damage of a top-tier DD' is an incorrect belief based on Starfox's flawed parses, and Hyrist knows it. Even Starfox himself would be decimated in a fair parse against real DDs. He is clearly avoiding the inevitable - he must admit that he is wrong, or he must honorably face Wish and Aurara in that parse and be proven wrong.

Choosing not to log in is simple avoidance, and I say that as a not-quite-casual-but-not-quite-hardcore players who spends at least half his logged-in time AFK and attending to other matters.

Supersun

07-17-2011, 09:41 AM

Choosing not to log in is simple avoidance, and I say that as a not-quite-casual-but-not-quite-hardcore players who spends at least half his logged-in time AFK and attending to other matters.

At the same time. I haven't been able to log in for the last couple of days myself. I know how real life matters can affect how often I play. Luckily, my final college class is now over so I should be able to play a bit more routinely now.

Even if he doesn't quite hit the 80% mark it'll be a lot closer then the 20% mark proposed earlier...

Rayik

07-18-2011, 09:53 PM

I'm totally a BG shark because I call people on their BS right?

Hey genius, I think part of the point of this thread is exactly that the game doesn't support RDM melee in it's current state, even though the job is implied as melee-capable. You jumping in here screaming at us about RDM sucking at melee is just stating the obvious.

I am an absolute RDM melee enthusiast, and I'll be the first to admit RDM sucks ass compared to any true DD. The (very) few times as a RDM I have been "allowed" to melee in a party situation, I contributed to overall damage the same way I did with my spells; strong support, but never outdoing the specialists. A RDM will never out-damage a DD(or out-cure a WHM, out-nuke a BLM, etc)). But, a true DD will never be tossing Cure IV's, enfeebling spells, Hasting, Refreshing, etc, in addition to melee output. ANY damage a RDM does in combat is more damage then it was doing standing in the backline.

The only reason I can see not letting a RDM melee in today's FFXI is to cut down on feeding the mob TP.

Ironside

07-19-2011, 12:19 AM

The only reason I can see not letting a RDM melee in today's FFXI is to cut down on feeding the mob TP.
This is a good reason, but I'd also say it depends on the RDM. I've seen quite a few RDMs (and I'm including myself here, I'm actually pretty terrible at RDM, which is why I'm not saying much in this thread) who can hardly multitask enough to keep their party buffed and the enemy debuffed, much less melee the mob.

For a good RDM though, yeah, I'd kinda see your point.

Rayik

07-19-2011, 01:06 AM

It's really not that hard to do. Basically, instead of standing in the back going through your line of spell macros, you can be up front engaged with the mob, and going through the same line of spell macros. RDM can deal damage, but not nearly enough to draw any attention away from the tank or other DD's. Just watch out for AoE's and keep an eye on your dialogue box for when buffs/debuffs wear off. Again, nowadays it's a moot point since people don't want anyone feeding TP to the mob.

I think a lot of us sort of lost sight for a long time in this thread. It's not about keeping up with dedicated, specialized DD's; it ain't gonna happen. The damage a RDM deals is secondary, like one long DoT. If RDM were able to even partially hold a candle to normal DD's damage-wise, the job would be beyond broken. RDM fills a jack-of-all-trades role, and can make everyone in the party's lives easier if played well. Nowadays nobody wants a hybrid though, everyone wants all specialists all the time.

wish12oz

07-19-2011, 01:26 AM

Again, nowadays it's a moot point since people don't want anyone feeding TP to the mob.

I don't recall a time when this statement wasn't true on anything decently difficult. It's not some new thing, its the way it's always been, you shouldn't imply it's new with your choice of words.

I think a lot of us sort of lost sight for a long time in this thread. It's not about keeping up with dedicated, specialized DD's; it ain't gonna happen.

Your buddies say they can do it with sub par gear, maybe you're just bad at FFXI!
(or maybe they're just kidding themselves lol)

Aurara

07-19-2011, 01:33 AM

Hey genius, I think part of the point of this thread is exactly that the game doesn't support RDM melee in it's current state, even though the job is implied as melee-capable. You jumping in here screaming at us about RDM sucking at melee is just stating the obvious.

Hey genius, any job is melee capable, dont give rdm the exclusive "we have swords it means we can melee!!!" whms have clubs and can hexa strike, sch smn have staff skill does that mean they should be QQing about meleeing(ok maybe some people like lolDallas QQ about smn but he's easily ignored). I came in "screaming"(even though i came in with a cool calm level headed tone and was replied with screams of anger, disgust and fury because i stated an opinion that people did not like) because I don't want SE reading this and thinking "OH THEY WANT MELEE RDM TO BE BETTER?!" and give RDM some stupid melee ability so that everyone who loves meleeing on rdm could go "HA I TOLD YOU SO NOOB". RDM should be enfeebling/curing/hasting/etc, NOT meleeing.

I am an absolute RDM melee enthusiast, and I'll be the first to admit RDM sucks ass compared to any true DD. The (very) few times as a RDM I have been "allowed" to melee in a party situation, I contributed to overall damage the same way I did with my spells; strong support, but never outdoing the specialists. A RDM will never out-damage a DD(or out-cure a WHM, out-nuke a BLM, etc)). But, a true DD will never be tossing Cure IV's, enfeebling spells, Hasting, Refreshing, etc, in addition to melee output. ANY damage a RDM does in combat is more damage then it was doing standing in the backline.

You probably contributed so much because the others you were playing with were crap or dead. This has been stressed a hundred times or more, stop comparing yourself to CRAP DD...seriously, go find some well geared, smart players with DD, they will crush you and your dmg contribution will be not even noticeable so stop saying you contribute so much, you contribute more with your spells/enfeebs than you do meleeing and wasting everyone's time.

The only reason I can see not letting a RDM melee in today's FFXI is to cut down on feeding the mob TP.

Because their dmg is crap on anything that isnt EP/DC, they contribute more being on the backline.

Rayik

07-19-2011, 01:34 AM

I don't recall a time when this statement wasn't true on anything decently difficult. It's not some new thing, its the way it's always been, you shouldn't imply it's new with your choice of words.

Thank you for deciding what I'm allowed to say, but really, I'll imply whatever I damn well please. In my experience, I have only started hearing about parties worrying about TP feed when Abyssea came out. Mobs have had TP moves since the beginning, but I honestly never heard so much worry about it. Before Abyssea, when a NM did a TP move, we just recovered and kept fighting. Wasn't such a big deal before.

Your buddies say they can do it with sub par gear, maybe you're just bad at FFXI!
(or maybe they're just kidding themselves lol)

Ok, you lost me. Are you saying I'm wrong because as a melee RDM I'm not deluded enough to think I could compete with a DD, or am I supposed to be doing the same damage as a dedicated DD? Troll fail.

Rayik

07-19-2011, 01:42 AM

Hey genius, any job is melee capable, dont give rdm the exclusive "we have swords it means we can melee!!!" whms have clubs and can hexa strike, sch smn have staff skill does that mean they should be QQing about meleeing(ok maybe some people like lolDallas QQ about smn but he's easily ignored). I came in "screaming"(even though i came in with a cool calm level headed tone and was replied with screams of anger, disgust and fury because i stated an opinion that people did not like) because I don't want SE reading this and thinking "OH THEY WANT MELEE RDM TO BE BETTER?!" and give RDM some stupid melee ability so that everyone who loves meleeing on rdm could go "HA I TOLD YOU SO NOOB". RDM should be enfeebling/curing/hasting/etc, NOT meleeing.

You probably contributed so much because the others you were playing with were crap or dead. This has been stressed a hundred times or more, stop comparing yourself to CRAP DD...seriously, go find some well geared, smart players with DD, they will crush you and your dmg contribution will be not even noticeable so stop saying you contribute so much, you contribute more with your spells/enfeebs than you do meleeing and wasting everyone's time.

You're mising the point, DD are SUPPOSED to be crushing RDM's melee contribution, RDM can melee and cast spells just fine. As I already said, a RDM won't be pulling hate from melee, so chances are their spells are not going to be interrupted. It's not like we're standing there pressing an "Attack" button, RDM can still cast a spell while in melee. ANY damage contributed to the fight is more damage than would have been if the RDM wasn't meleeing. It's all extra damage, no matter how small.

Alright, I'm trying to keep up with your argument, but the only thing you keep commenting on is how bad everyone else we RDM's must be playing with. It's like the 10th time you mentioned that against multiple people in this discussion. Please, clue me in to this all-seeing eye of yours on how you are able to witness and pass judgment not only on the RDM's in this thread, but every person we play with? R u a wizrd?

Aurara

07-19-2011, 01:51 AM

Wow, hostile much? Punctuation works wonders, by the way. You're mising the point, DD are SUPPOSED to be crushing RDM's melee contribution, RDM can melee and cast spells just fine. They are not mutually exclusive! As I already said, a RDM won't be pulling hate from melee, so chances are their spells are not going to be interrupted. It's not like we're standing there pressing an "Attack" button, RDM can still cast a spell while in melee. ANY damage contributed to the fight is more damage than would have been if the RDM wasn't meleeing. It's all extra damage, no matter how small.

Moving to ad hominem attacks are we? Well that's hilarious since you had a much more hostile reply than I had for you. I'm not missing any points here, you're simply wrong. RDM has no place on the frontline, because bu your logic every single job should be meleeing because they have melee capabilities. By having a RDM on the frontline you subject them to debuffs/easily killed unless they have: PDT/MDT sets, are you willing to put the money out for those sets? Or do you expect your healer(hint, YOU have cure4) to just cure you so you can continue to melee? If i was in your party, and I was on whm I would let you die, and just ignore your crying because i let a DD die. You are aware that some mobs have TP moves that will one shot you, but not the other DDs, congratulations, you are now dead and people have to waste MP/time away from the fight to raise you, OR they wait until the fight is over, in which case you contributed nothing, maybe 1-2k dmg, but nothing that would have changed the course of the fight. You are also forgetting that some mobs have silence auras, making it stupid for you to melee because you constantly have to run in/out of range meaning you lose dmg.

Alright, I'm trying to keep up with your argument, but the only thing you keep commenting on is how bad everyone else we RDM's must be playing with. It's like the 10th time you mentioned that against multiple people in this discussion. Please, clue me in to this all-seeing eye of yours on how you are able to witness and pass judgment not only on the RDM's in this thread, but every person we play with? R u a wizrd?
Come to Odin and parse wish and I, prove your rdm is "good" otherwise don't talk. I'll fill you in as to why i think all RDM suck, because most of them DO SUCK. People full timing mage gear for melee, not gearswapping, not curing or hasting anyone but themselves, not debuffing, you know, the normal things a melee rdm does :)

Edit: Nice R u a wizrd attack, and to reply, yes I am a wizrd i studied at Hogwarts, you jelly?

Rayik

07-19-2011, 01:59 AM

Moving to ad hominem attacks are we? Well that's hilarious since you had a much more hostile reply than I had for you. I'm not missing any points here, you're simply wrong. RDM has no place on the frontline, because bu your logic every single job should be meleeing because they have melee capabilities. By having a RDM on the frontline you subject them to debuffs/easily killed unless they have: PDT/MDT sets, are you willing to put the money out for those sets? Or do you expect your healer(hint, YOU have cure4) to just cure you so you can continue to melee? If i was in your party, and I was on whm I would let you die, and just ignore your crying because i let a DD die. You are aware that some mobs have TP moves that will one shot you, but not the other DDs, congratulations, you are now dead and people have to waste MP/time away from the fight to raise you, OR they wait until the fight is over, in which case you contributed nothing, maybe 1-2k dmg, but nothing that would have changed the course of the fight. You are also forgetting that some mobs have silence auras, making it stupid for you to melee because you constantly have to run in/out of range meaning you lose dmg.

Come to Odin and parse wish and I, prove your rdm is "good" otherwise don't talk. I'll fill you in as to why i think all RDM suck, because most of them DO SUCK. People full timing mage gear for melee, not gearswapping, not curing or hasting anyone but themselves, not debuffing, you know, the normal things a melee rdm does :)

Edit: Nice R u a wizrd attack, and to reply, yes I am a wizrd i studied at Hogwarts, you jelly?

Ok pal, I'm not the one screaming "stop playing with crap DD! Stop meleeing! U SUCK!" every other post. Your arguments are baseless. You have no idea how I play, and no idea whom I play with. And a parse? Seriously? You haven't read a single word I said. Why would I parse against a DD when I've said, multiple times, RDM melee doesn't compare with a dedicated DD. Wow man, you're not even trying.

But yeah, every job should be in he front line when they have:

Capped weapon skill over 335(before gear and merits)
Access to haste-capping gear
Access to at least a critical WS like Evisceration
Just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

Even if I'm meleeing in a party, I'm keeping buffs up and helping cure. Hell, I've main-healed parties and helped melee in trash xp parties, no problem; all DD's Hasted and mages Refreshed. Maybe all the RDM's you played with didn't do that. Sucks for you and they suck for not contributing to the party.

Trash players who don't help the party or gear swap are not RDM specific; they are just trash players.

Aurara

07-19-2011, 02:07 AM

Ok pal, I'm not the one screaming "stop playing with crap DD! Stop meleeing! U SUCK!" every other post. Your arguments are baseless. You have no idea how I play, and no idea whom I play with. And a parse? Seriously? You haven't read a single word I said. Why would I parse against a DD when I've said, multiple times, RDM melee doesn't compare with a dedicated DD. Wow man, you're not even trying.

Your obvious sarcasm isn't helping to your argument, in fact you are making yourself look very foolish. So telling people to stop playing with crap DD is wrong? Should people just play with crap players and brag about how awesome melee rdm is? How are my arguments baseless? I simply said RDM has no place in the front lines, take it or leave it. Oh and how foolish of me to ask you to parse yourself, i ask Hyrist the same thing and he's ignored both wish and I, oops lol next time i wont be so silly :3

But yeah, every job should be in he front line when they have:

Capped weapon skill over 335(before gear and merits)
Access to haste-capping gear
Access to at least a critical WS like Evisceration
Just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.
Congrats you just described whm, which does a better job of DD/curing the party than rdm does, bravo.

Even if I'm meleeing in a party, I'm keeping buffs up and helping cure. Hell, I've main-healed parties and helped melee in trash xp parties, no problem; all DD's Hasted and mages Refreshed. Maybe all the RDM's you played with didn't do that. Sucks for you and they suck for not contributing to the party.
Just because YOU can do it doesn't make it good.

Rayik

07-19-2011, 02:17 AM

Your obvious sarcasm isn't helping to your argument, in fact you are making yourself look very foolish. So telling people to stop playing with crap DD is wrong? Should people just play with crap players and brag about how awesome melee rdm is? How are my arguments baseless? I simply said RDM has no place in the front lines, take it or leave it. Oh and how foolish of me to ask you to parse yourself, i ask Hyrist the same thing and he's ignored both wish and I, oops lol next time i wont be so silly :3

That's like a Marine challenging a Communications Officer to a wrestling match. A dedicated DD will blow RDM out of the water damage-wise, which is why a parse is pointless. A RDM can contribute damage, but will never be a good absolute source of it. What part of this are you not getting? You are saying there's no place for it, which is fine for your opinion, and my opinion is that there can be a place for it. Let's agree to disagree.

Congrats you just described whm, which does a better job of DD/curing the party than rdm does, bravo.

Sad part is, you are absolutely right about this. Well, except for some newer gear(Calmecac Trousers and Atheling Mantle are fun). The fact that a WHM can currently out-damage a RDM is a serious point of contention, and part of why there are so many threads about this topic in the first place.

Supersun

07-19-2011, 02:24 AM

You are aware that some mobs have TP moves that will one shot you, but not the other DDs

What the hell is this?

First off every job should be carrying a PDT/MDT set if he wants to stand close to any dangerous mob. Hell, every mage should have an idle set regardless (which usually includes PDT unless there's a piece that gives Refresh).

Red Mage probably doesn't even need an MDT set (it would be the first thing I would drop with inventory issues). I mean we have Shell 5 and an innately have more magic defense then most jobs equip.

And believe it or not, Rdm can reach the 50% PDT cap pretty easy.

And since when does a Red Mage die easier the other melees? The only advantage DD jobs are going to have over Rdm (or hell, any mage in general) is a slightly more defense.

And unless you are a Monk other DDs won't even have more HP then us because we get this spell called stoneskin that essentially increases our HP by 460.

Sure DDs can get some defensive traits like counter, third eye, ect... but you must be high if you think those are even worth mentioning against a job that can cap the recast to utsusemi and cast it faster then you can blink.

Not to mention that even if we do get hurt it's not like meleeing suddenly strips us of our cure spells. In fact we have the most MP efficient cure spell in the game that is only castable on ourselves.

Really, the only time a DD is more survivable then a Red Mage is when the DDs HP is 6k, has a counter rate of 70%+, and has his own personal dual boxed whm with Minikin standing behind him.

Unfortunately though, the future of XI lies outside of abyssea and calling DD jobs more survivable then most mage jobs in general just shows that you should play with better mages.

Aurara

07-19-2011, 02:40 AM

What the hell is this?

First off every job should be carrying a PDT/MDT set if he wants to stand close to any dangerous mob. Hell, every mage should have an idle set regardless (which usually includes PDT unless there's a piece that gives Refresh).

Yeah except a majority of people don't carry idle/MDT/PDT sets.

Red Mage probably doesn't even need an MDT set (it would be the first thing I would drop with inventory issues). I mean we have Shell 5 and an innately have more magic defense then most jobs equip.
If you're soloing you wont cap MDT with just shell V.

And believe it or not, Rdm can reach the 50% PDT cap pretty easy.
I have a PDT set and an MDT set on rdm, so yes I am aware.

And since when does a Red Mage die easier the other melees? The only advantage DD jobs are going to have over Rdm (or hell, any mage in general) is a slightly more defense.
They die easier because they dont carry those sets and melee in crap mage gear lol

And unless you are a Monk other DDs won't even have more HP then us because we get this spell called stoneskin that essentially increases our HP by 460.

I know, I have rdm. But if you're trying to argue that stoneskin will save you every time you're misguided, mobs CAN TP multiple times in a row you know.

Sure DDs can get some defensive traits like counter, third eye, ect... but you must be high if you think those are even worth mentioning against a job that can cap the recast to utsusemi and cast it faster then you can blink.
Any job can cap recasts with marchx2 and haste, all RDM has is fastcast, which is extremely nice for soloing, but don't think rdm gets some exclusive thing where it can cap recasts only. Also casting shadows lowers your DoT sooooo...

Not to mention that even if we do get hurt it's not like meleeing suddenly strips us of our cure spells. In fact we have the most MP efficient cure spell in the game that is only castable on ourselves.
Regen? or Cure4, because i'm pretty sure cure 4 can be cast on others! and Regen....lol that's castable on others too!

Really, the only time a DD is more survivable then a Red Mage is when the DDs HP is 6k, has a counter rate of 70%+, and has his own personal dual boxed whm with Minikin standing behind him.
RDM is pretty powerful, but it's still worthless compared to a DD on the frontline.

Unfortunately though, the future of XI lies outside of abyssea and calling DD jobs more survivable then most mage jobs in general just shows that you should play with better mages.

All my mages i play with have PDT/MDT/Idle sets

Neisan_Quetz

07-19-2011, 02:42 AM

What kind of bad Support do you have that Dds aren't getting Shell V? Moot point, MDT sets are good for everyone.

You aren't capping PDT without using inferior main/offhands (assuming you were meleeing, if not ignore), but I suppose neither is anyone else short of Bravura War.

wish12oz

07-19-2011, 02:53 AM

Thank you for deciding what I'm allowed to say, but really, I'll imply whatever I damn well please.

You can say whatever you want, but that doesn't mean you're right. I just assumed you were not some noob who didn't do anything before the level cap increase, guess I was wrong. People did not bring a bunch of melees to hard HNMs or ones with annoying TP moves and just melee the crap out of them, like Tiamat, Khim, Fafhogg, Sandworm, etc. I'm sorry you never got to do this kind of stuff at 75, but now you know so you can stop thinking this is some kind of new thing.

Ok, you lost me. Are you saying I'm wrong because as a melee RDM I'm not deluded enough to think I could compete with a DD, or am I supposed to be doing the same damage as a dedicated DD? Troll fail.

I won actually, I used what you said to reinforce my earlier comments about how RDM doesn't do very good melee damage. And I'm doing it again right now!

Supersun

07-19-2011, 02:59 AM

They die easier because they dont carry those sets and melee in crap mage gear lol

That's a complaint against the player though and not the job.

crappy players will be crappy players regardless of the job...

You aren't capping PDT without using inferior main/offhands (assuming you were meleeing, if not ignore), but I suppose neither is anyone else short of Bravura War.

Joy + Genbu isn't a terrible combo and would propel us well into the 40+ PDT range.
Give us native Sanguine and that almost becomes the preferred set-up.

Rayik

07-19-2011, 03:04 AM

You can say whatever you want, but that doesn't mean you're right. I just assumed you were not some noob who didn't do anything before the level cap increase, guess I was wrong. People did not bring a bunch of melees to hard HNMs or ones with annoying TP moves and just melee the crap out of them, like Tiamat, Khim, Fafhogg, Sandworm, etc. I'm sorry you never got to do this kind of stuff at 75, but now you know so you can stop thinking this is some kind of new thing.

You got me there, I never did things like land kings, sandworm, etc. Just never interested me. I play on console with limited play time, so camping things for days on end was out of reach for my play style. I mostly just did Dynamis and quests/missions before Abyssea.

I won actually, I used what you said to reinforce my earlier comments about how RDM doesn't do very good melee damage. And I'm doing it again right now!

Is English not your first language? What part of my past 4 statements about RDM damage have you not understood? I wasn't joking, you really did lose me. I don't understand what you're getting at. I've been saying over and over how RDM at the moment only contribute to damage, and cannot hold a candle to true DD damage. What's your point?

Karbuncle

07-19-2011, 03:10 AM

Joy + Genbu isn't a terrible combo and would propel us well into the 40+ PDT range.
Give us native Sanguine and that almost becomes the preferred set-up.

It kinda is, If you're trying to be a good DD, and not dual Wielding, You lose i think its.. 25% Dual wield? thats a significant hit to your DPS, and i mean VERY significant, Almost the equivalent to not wearing any haste during TP Phase.

You'd be better off using PDT Shamshir+2's than a Genbu's. Not saying either are great choices though.

Rearden

07-19-2011, 03:40 AM

Sigh.

I have a BRD mule that would outparse you guys and yet this topic still continues.

Rayik

07-19-2011, 03:43 AM

Sigh.

I have a BRD mule that would outparse you guys and yet this topic still continues.

Because the parse is all that matters, right? Forget all those spells and utility and stuff. Just parse numbers.

Aurara

07-19-2011, 03:44 AM

You dont have to melee for those spells to be useful you know.

Rayik

07-19-2011, 03:47 AM

You dont have to melee for those spells to be useful you know.

And I don't have to stand in the back line motionless, either. Well, okay, depends on the mob.

Aurara

07-19-2011, 03:50 AM

No it doesn't rdm shouldn't be meleeing anything except trash exp mobs(and even then those die in like 1 WS so whats the point?)

Supersun

07-19-2011, 03:50 AM

It kinda is, If you're trying to be a good DD, and not dual Wielding, You lose i think its.. 25% Dual wield? thats a significant hit to your DPS, and i mean VERY significant, Almost the equivalent to not wearing any haste during TP Phase.

You'd be better off using PDT Shamshir+2's than a Genbu's. Not saying either are great choices though.

Well yeah, if we had sanguine natively I would think Joy/OaT Khanda would be optimal for damage.

Double attack loses quite a bit of value on a weapon when your primary WS can't double attack.

While I agree that losing Dual Wield is a pretty big hit on your DoT it's not quite as bad as if we were talking about a physical WS here and certainly not as bad as not wearing haste gear.

TP phase damage yes, it's about as bad, but I forget the numbers atm, but dropping dual wield isn't going to drop your WS frequency nearly as bad as dropping haste would, and it's not like magical WSs receive the +1fTP from dual wielding that a physical WS would receive.

Is it a hit to your damage? Sure, I estimate that it would drop us ~20%, but sometimes there are situations where you need the extra survivability even if momentarily at the expense of your damage.

Sigh.

I have a BRD mule that would outparse you guys and yet this topic still continues.

Isn't that a reason for this topic to continue?

Because the job that is advertised as being the "Jack of all trades" is getting beat physically by the geek from band camp?

I mean it's not like we are asking to melee on the things that even Blus are in the back cannonball spamming on, but lowmaning stuff is becoming even more and more common, and with lowmanning hybridization is important. It would be nice to be able to perform to SOME decent standard at those times.

Rearden

07-19-2011, 03:51 AM

I'll take 13mp/tic refresh, 25.xx%haste, 50% slow and -23%DT for 1000 please

Rayik

07-19-2011, 03:54 AM

No it doesn't rdm shouldn't be meleeing anything except trash exp mobs(and even then those die in like 1 WS so whats the point?)

Opinions are awesome.

Thunderlips

07-19-2011, 03:55 AM

And I don't have to stand in the back line motionless, either. Well, okay, depends on the mob.

One question I have been thinking of is how much damage are you going to be adding when swapping weapons to cast spells (staves/clubs+sheilds/PDT/MDT options) or are you going to forego bonuses from those slots to keep your TP from resetting?

wildsprite

07-19-2011, 03:58 AM

actually I think if we really want RDM to do better melee we need to push SE to fix the en spells to do more damage per hit on mobs weak to that element, as it is, the original en spells do very little difference toward mobs that are or are not weak to them, and the en spell II set, is kinda a joke, the originals hit both main and offhand weapons, the en spell II set hits only the main and what does it do, increases weakness to the elemental weakness of that enspell.....not a very big help unless you are helping nukers

Rayik

07-19-2011, 04:00 AM

One question I have been thinking of is how much damage are you going to be adding when swapping weapons to cast spells (staves/clubs+sheilds/PDT/MDT options) or are you going to forego bonuses from those slots to keep your TP from resetting?

If I'm meleeing, I'm not swapping staves. I personally have pairs of MAB and M.Acc Shamshirs, just in case my spells need a boost. Really, if I'm meleeing it, chances are my capped and merited enfeebling skill is landing my spells just fine. If I'm having trouble landing spells, then I'll change up gear as needed. If I'm still not landing them, it's either highly resistant or flat-out immune. Don't really need M.Acc to land Cures and buffs, MND and enhancing gear swaps take care of that.

Supersun

07-19-2011, 04:00 AM

One question I have been thinking of is how much damage are you going to be adding when swapping weapons to cast spells (staves/clubs+sheilds/PDT/MDT options) or are you going to forego bonuses from those slots to keep your TP from resetting?

Because we need more macc?

Seriously, if we can land it, we're going to land it with or without a staff.
From there the extra mind froma weapon slot is going to add like what? .3% more slow?

(Slow is really only so useful up until the point that your DDs can recast Utsu between swings.)

Aurara

07-19-2011, 04:01 AM

Blus are in the back cannonball spamming on, but lowmaning stuff is becoming even more and more common, and with lowmanning hybridization is important. It would be nice to be able to perform to SOME decent standard at those times.
You perform well by making sure mobs are debuffed and melees hastes and mages refresh'd etc. Also blu doesn't spam cannonball if its that lowman, they usually melee(assuming they have almace/good melee/PDT/MDT builds).

Karbuncle

07-19-2011, 04:01 AM

Well yeah, if we had sanguine natively I would think Joy/OaT Khanda would be optimal for damage.

Double attack loses quite a bit of value on a weapon when your primary WS can't double attack.

While I agree that losing Dual Wield is a pretty big hit on your DoT it's not quite as bad as if we were talking about a physical WS here and certainly not as bad as not wearing haste gear.

TP phase damage yes, it's about as bad, but I forget the numbers atm, but dropping dual wield isn't going to drop your WS frequency nearly as bad as dropping haste would, and it's not like magical WSs receive the +1fTP from dual wielding that a physical WS would receive.

Is it a hit to your damage? Sure, I estimate that it would drop us ~20%, but sometimes there are situations where you need the extra survivability even if momentarily at the expense of your damage.

Well i would have to respectfully disagree. Gaining a 25% boost to your attack speed is very significant, especially if you're already stacking 25% Haste and Haste spell. I would say far more significant than its being played as.

I'm not really knowledgeable on RDM melee, But i think Evisceration would be the better WS than Sanguine Blade for pure damage. Not including survivability. I'm working on the Assumption the RDM is trying to do his fair share of Damage.

I think even Death Blossom would be better than Sanguine for pure Damage.

Either way, Maybe we're arguing two different Aspects, but as far as pure damage goes, I think Evisceration will beat Sanguine Blade, and would be the better option, so Dual Wielding will always work in your favor (What with not needing to sub something lesser because of not having Natural Sanguine)

Rayik

07-19-2011, 04:05 AM

You perform well by making sure mobs are debuffed and melees hastes and mages refresh'd etc. Also blu doesn't spam cannonball if its that lowman, they usually melee(assuming they have almace/good melee/PDT/MDT builds).

And this can all be done while meleeing. You do realize you can set the target for your spell in a macro, right? Standing there swinging weapons does not in any way impede on spellcasting.

Supersun

07-19-2011, 04:17 AM

Thunderlips

07-19-2011, 04:33 AM

If I'm meleeing, I'm not swapping staves. I personally have pairs of MAB and M.Acc Shamshirs, just in case my spells need a boost. Really, if I'm meleeing it, chances are my capped and merited enfeebling skill is landing my spells just fine. If I'm having trouble landing spells, then I'll change up gear as needed. If I'm still not landing them, it's either highly resistant or flat-out immune. Don't really need M.Acc to land Cures and buffs, MND and enhancing gear swaps take care of that.

However then you are negatively impacting your melee by using M.Acc weapons instead of STR+ using those weapons. You do lose the bonus MND+ from weapon/shield to buffs as well as MND based debuffs. Also no cure potency+ staff/club for curing?

Pretty sure a HQ/magican staff is going to outdo the +INT and MAB you get off the dual wielded swords as well.

And this can all be done while meleeing. You do realize you can set the target for your spell in a macro, right? Standing there swinging weapons does not in any way impede on spellcasting.

I guess this would come down to the person playing the job, but I would have to say from person experience I have seen people let buffs slide so they can get those last 1-2 melee swings in they need to hit 100 TP and do another WS.

Karbuncle

07-19-2011, 04:33 AM

Dual Wield and Haste don't compound off of each other. Adding +25% dual wield is going to increase your TP damage by 33% irregardless of how much haste you have (unless you are hitting the delay cap obviously). Doesn't matter if you have 0 haste or 25 haste it's still going to increase it the same proportion.

And I really doubt Evi and DB are going to beat Sanguine on Rdm. We really don't have that great of options for physical WSs (and our dagger selection kinda sucks now), but we have AMAZING options for elemental WSs. Heck, I hit a 1.1k AE outside of abyssea, and my AE set is lacking some very important pieces. I myself would be using AE over sanguine blade, but that requires a TP bonus dagger and we are excluded from the TotM daggers while the martial knife kills your DOT. Even then Sanguine usually outperforms AE.

Though I do agree that this is only possible if we receive Sanguine natively.

As i said I'm not amazingly indepth on RDM melee, Just always figured Evisc > Sanguine.

However, Twilight Knife is a pretty decent dagger for RDM, very decent even... But its true RDM WS Gear is rather limited, Hell even on THF on mobs like Dynamis-Xarc my Evis rarely average higher than 1k unstacked... Maybe I'mdoingitwrong (I don't think i am -.-) but i can see how a RDM would be far worse off.

I need to play with RDM a bit more, But i still think losing Dual wield would not be worth gaining Sanguine Blade. I could be wrong, Just my view on it. (though i think you said that in your last line).

Supersun

07-19-2011, 04:36 AM

My Sanguine in Dynamis Sandy iirc hits for 800-1100 depending on the monster.

Then again...it's always double dark weather in there and I use an obi :P
(My Sanguine set is pretty bad though since I essentially just use my AE set with just a different body)

Neisan_Quetz

07-19-2011, 06:32 AM

Sang blade doesn't nearly make up for the loss in DoT. Ofc the best option would be getting both but alas, it was not meant to be as far as SE is concerned.

Seriha

07-19-2011, 07:14 AM

I'm not really knowledgeable on RDM melee, But i think Evisceration would be the better WS than Sanguine Blade for pure damage. Not including survivability. I'm working on the Assumption the RDM is trying to do his fair share of Damage.

While going the physical route will probably lead to Evisceration's favor, it's possible to gear and atma yourself to allow SB to break 2.5k consistently. As a job that evades like a brick, SB's utility aspect of self-curing might be more beneficial in the long term since you can eliminate the need to cast shadows, stoneskins, and even cures when you're soaking up 1k+ HP per WS. Such is pretty much how I handled the lizard phase of my WS% sword for brewing purposes.

Either way, the downside of the SB build is your crit rate goes down, and obviously we're giving up /NIN. Downside of Evisc is even with RR and such, you could still get some stinker WS that'd barely break 1k, but you could also get lucky and break 3k. Better gear and such will steer you toward the latter, but if you're not in a situation where someone else can watch your back while you focus on damage, again, SB might be the better bet.

Outside, hitting around 1k with SB should be doable. Evisc could spike higher, but this is also where our juggling act in ATK/ACC/STR and such in the WS phase can catch up with us without cruor buffs picking up the slack.

Supersun

07-19-2011, 07:15 AM

Well who knows. They said there are weapon skill adjustments coming. It really wouldn't surprise me if that was one of them because let's be honest. Getting AE with crap dagger selection while NOT getting Sanguine natively is BS lol

Seriha

07-19-2011, 07:18 AM

We can only hope, but I'm looking at that about as optimistically as I am new enfeebles. Until SE tells us more, it's hard to get excited.

wish12oz

07-19-2011, 07:40 AM

I have a BRD mule that would outparse you guys and yet this topic still continues.

This wins the thread.

(Slow is really only so useful up until the point that your DDs can recast Utsu between swings.)

If you would stand in the back and do your job, your melees could sub SAM and WAR and not be terrible.

Supersun

07-19-2011, 08:03 AM

If you would stand in the back and do your job, your melees could sub SAM and WAR and not be terrible.

And this is why people fail at voidwatch.

People just expect to go at it like abyssea where you just send DDs at the mob and a whm spams cure 5.

A little survivability goes a long way especially when there's no rush to kill anything since you want some time to actually proc mobs anyway.

Aurara

07-19-2011, 08:07 AM

And this is why people fail at voidwatch.

People just expect to go at it like abyssea where you just send DDs at the mob and a whm spams cure 5.

A little survivability goes a long way especially when there's no rush to kill anything since you want some time to actually proc mobs anyway.
Kam and I do voidwatch together, we have an ochain pld, and kam goes nin or war/nin for VW stuff(sub sam if we have strong support on or if its a T1/2 VWNM). Seriously, we proc, I'm the whm, i can still spam cures, i just need to let the pld cure himself for hate because unlike other DDs, pld can't hold hate with just DoT/WS they actually have to try. RDM can proc just fine from the back lines.

wish12oz

07-19-2011, 08:43 AM

I do not sub ninja on war, ever.
I also dual box my own WHM, and die a lot, but that would happen if I was subbing NIN too, so it doesn't matter.

Greatguardian

07-19-2011, 08:53 AM

So this thread ended nicely after people were unable to budge on the arguments they presented and lost.

Then it starts all over because someone decides to completely ignore the lost argument and bring up a new one?

What you're saying boils down to "Any DD contribution is better than no DD contribution as long as it does not negatively affect my casting role", is this correct? Unfortunately, that statement is not true, especially outside Abyssea. Landing Enfeebles is not the same as landing strong Enfeebles. Staves are not, and have never been, the end-all-be-all weapon for casting spells because, as far as Enfeebles are concerned, they simply add Accuracy. And you're right, if your accuracy is capped, you aren't benefiting from staves. Except Surya's. Surya's is awesome and if you are healing at all ever, the loss of that staff is a huge deal.

But you know what you would be benefiting from? Wands. You can add 17 MND in your main/sub slot in place of your swords, which drastically affects the potency of your dMND based enfeebles. The argument that "Any slow is good enough as long as people don't die" is honestly folly, especially when you take multipliers into account like Saboteur.

Idling in TP gear also prevents you from idling in Refresh gear. Outside Abyssea, the loss in MP adds up significantly over time. Not only are you losing MP recovery (1 earring, 2 body, 1 head, 1 legs, 1 hands/feet, 6/tick, or 1,000 MP per Convert assuming maxed merits), but you're spending more MP by taking damage and curing yourself.

If you need all of that MP on content harder than Abyssea, you should never be melee'ing. If you don't need all that MP on content harder than Abyssea, you should be burning the excess off in Nukes and doing more damage, more safely, than if you were melee'ing while still maintaining full casting potency on all of your other spells.

You can come in here and complain all you want about how "You know RDM Melee sucks", but the fact of the matter is that people here are claiming that it does not right now. Do not dare to call us trolls when we are simply debating point of fact with people who, frankly, made the ridiculous claims first.

Rearden

07-19-2011, 09:39 AM

Because we need more macc?

Seriously, if we can land it, we're going to land it with or without a staff.
From there the extra mind froma weapon slot is going to add like what? .3% more slow?

(Slow is really only so useful up until the point that your DDs can recast Utsu between swings.)

Someone's never fought a monster outside of Abyssea

Gokku

07-19-2011, 10:55 AM

Supersun

07-19-2011, 11:04 AM

Someone's never fought a monster outside of Abyssea

Someone's missing the fact that it's pretty easy to cap our enfeebles with or without a wand.

I mean when I first saw the Esto neck piece I just facepalmed because I realized that in 99% of situations it would be virtually worthless due to how easy it was to cap spells. Monsters really don't have high enough mnd in general to pose a problem.

GG is right about one weapon and that's the Cure Staff. That's a weapon that's slightly hard to get around. At the same time though we aren't asking to melee on every monster in the game. If there's something that is mean enough that it would warrant stepping back and using a cure staff that's not a problem.

We aren't and have never been asking to melee on HNMs. If somethings dicky enough that a blue mage has to step back and cannonball spam like the ACP crystal that's fine. At the same time it would be SLIGHTLY nice to have the bar for acceptable meleeing raised slightly higher then just exp.

There are plenty of non HNM level mobs that would be nice to have some level of acceptable melee. A common motto has been "Melee fodder, Magic bosses" Fodder doesn't apply to just exp, there are plenty of NMs that most people would dump into the fodder category. It would be nice to receive some level of buff at least to accommodate those.

Hyrist also mentioned that someone told him to not even bother with that parse until he has an Evi set for 75.

Greatguardian

07-19-2011, 11:12 AM

So basically this:

No it doesn't rdm shouldn't be meleeing anything except trash exp mobs(and even then those die in like 1 WS so whats the point?)

I dare say everyone is in agreement then. Except for the people who very specifically are talking about RDM on stronger NMs and HNMs. Which is the point.

Also, dMND is not that easy to cap. On things we're 15 levels higher than they were designed for? Sure. In Abyssea? Sure. In level 90+ content? No way in hell. Honestly, Voidwatch is the only content worth comparing anything on because it's the only non-Abyssea content that's actually fit for our level.

Supersun

07-19-2011, 01:51 PM

It's really not.

To cap slow II you need a dMnd of 75.

Most monsters don't really have much more mnd then your own base stats. Monsters have never had particularly high base stats with a few exceptions like Kirin and his like 120 Int.

I mean from there if even my gimpy mnd set can give me +100 Mnd it really shouldn't be that difficult to cap.

I mean you mention abyssea, but I wouldn't be surprised if I could cap most of my enfeebles naked in there.

Rayik

07-19-2011, 08:08 PM

However then you are negatively impacting your melee by using M.Acc weapons instead of STR+ using those weapons. You do lose the bonus MND+ from weapon/shield to buffs as well as MND based debuffs. Also no cure potency+ staff/club for curing?

Pretty sure a HQ/magican staff is going to outdo the +INT and MAB you get off the dual wielded swords as well.

Obviously the staves give more for spellcatsing, that's part of the trade-off(and problem). I'm not all that worried about staff MAB for nukes; RDM nukes are nothing to write home about, even when fully buffed. They're pretty much just there to proc, or for helping with azure lights. I made the MAB swords as an experiment, and because the trial paths are so easy to do(made 3 MAB weps in a week just for fun). But even then, if I'm dual-wielding them, they're giving me +18 INT and +20 MAB... along with each sword having a DMG of 54 for starters, before adding en-spells. A pair of M.Acc swords gives +30 M. Acc and +150 mp if I wanted to. So yeah, not missing out all that much. Still need to make a STR Shamshir though, but sort of holding out on seeing if I can get help on an Almace or OAT Khanda.

And no, no potency staff/club for curing. I've started one though, because I've seen you can do most of the trials quick and easy in Nyzule Isle. Just haven't got around to it yet.

Rayik

07-19-2011, 08:46 PM

But you know what you would be benefiting from? Wands. You can add 17 MND in your main/sub slot in place of your swords, which drastically affects the potency of your dMND based enfeebles. The argument that "Any slow is good enough as long as people don't die" is honestly folly, especially when you take multipliers into account like Saboteur.

If that's the case, we can get +18 MND from magian swords, so thanks for the idea!

Idling in TP gear also prevents you from idling in Refresh gear. Outside Abyssea, the loss in MP adds up significantly over time. Not only are you losing MP recovery (1 earring, 2 body, 1 head, 1 legs, 1 hands/feet, 6/tick, or 1,000 MP per Convert assuming maxed merits), but you're spending more MP by taking damage and curing yourself.

If you need all of that MP on content harder than Abyssea, you should never be melee'ing. If you don't need all that MP on content harder than Abyssea, you should be burning the excess off in Nukes and doing more damage, more safely, than if you were melee'ing while still maintaining full casting potency on all of your other spells.

Good thing we have this handy-dandy spell that gives us 6mp/tic regardless of gear. Refresh gear just adds even more mp. And if we're idling anyway, a simple gear swap to refresh gear solves the "Idle in TP gear" problem you pose. Seriously, if we're just idling, why would we idle in tp gear? Did you mean "tp phase" and not "idle"?

Lastly, my ws's do similar damage as my nukes, more most of the time even. The extra damage during tp phase in addition to WS damage is a fair bit more DoT than just sitting back nuking, blowing through all my mp(that could've been used to cure and buff).

Neisan_Quetz

07-19-2011, 10:41 PM

... Don't nuke in MAB swords. Not even Blus bother with Macc swords because they're just that much of a waste. Nice experiment, but you wasted your effort.

Rearden

07-19-2011, 11:06 PM

Your WS do similar damage to your nukes.

Your nukes are nothing to write home about.

Rayik

07-20-2011, 12:38 AM

Your WS do similar damage to your nukes.

Your nukes are nothing to write home about.

I think I said that, exactly that.

...RDM nukes are nothing to write home about,

Yep, I sure did.

This is the most redundant talking-in-circles discussion I think I have ever taken part in.

Rayik

07-20-2011, 12:41 AM

... Don't nuke in MAB swords. Not even Blus bother with Macc swords because they're just that much of a waste. Nice experiment, but you wasted your effort.

Says you. Would be nice if we had a magic/elemental ws though...

Neisan_Quetz

07-20-2011, 01:35 AM

Says anyone who knows how Elemental Affinity/TPing for damage works... instead of nuking with a good nuking mainhand, or meleeing in a good melee offhand, you're using something that generally sucks at both, half-assing it at its finest.

Rayik

07-20-2011, 02:10 AM

Aurara

07-20-2011, 02:12 AM

Ah, the mantra of the RDM. Let us remember these words...

The mantra of the gimps who half-ass for sure, but I can assure you i half-ass nothing on RDM.

Rayik

07-20-2011, 02:16 AM

The mantra of the gimps who half-ass for sure, but I can assure you i half-ass nothing on RDM.

No, you're just a WHM in a fancy red hat. For all the negativity you spew on these threads, hearing you talk about being a RDM actually surprises me.

EDIT: As an addendum, really, just being a RDM you are nothing but half-assed. We all are. Anything RDM can do, any other job in the game can do better. Even enfeebles, BLU and WHM can shut us down with those. Heck, enfeeble's aren't even necessary in most current content.

So really, RDM is nothing but half-ass at it's finest; it's just which role you are choosing to half-ass when you play.

Supersun

07-20-2011, 02:22 AM

Why would you use a MAB sword when you can use a magic defense down sword.

You can get some ridiculous numbers with that thing.

Seriously, Blms practically have a mini-orgasm when that effect is up.

Of course to actually make it worthwhile you have to pretty much single wield it and drop your enspell.

Rayik

07-20-2011, 02:25 AM

Neisan_Quetz

07-20-2011, 02:26 AM

Not sure if serious...

Aurara

07-20-2011, 02:28 AM

No, you're just a WHM in a fancy red hat. For all the negativity you spew on these threads, hearing you talk about being a RDM actually surprises me.

EDIT: As an addendum, really, just being a RDM you are nothing but half-assed. We all are. Anything RDM can do, any other job in the game can do better. Even enfeebles, BLU and WHM can shut us down with those. Heck, enfeeble's aren't even necessary in most current content.

So really, RDM is nothing but half-ass at it's finest; it's just which role you are choosing to half-ass when you play.

So i halfass RDM is keeping up refresh/haste cycles, debuffing mobs, making sure people are buffed if they get dispelled, helping cure DDs that the whm can't hit at once?

Rayik

07-20-2011, 02:30 AM

So i halfass RDM bu keeping up refresh/haste cycles, debuffing mobs, making sure people are buffed if they get dispelled, helping cure DDs that the whm can't hit at once?

And aside from Refresh, how is it that the WHM can't do all the above? Why can't the WHM hit those DD's and you somehow can?

EDIT: Oh wait, WHM can just /rdm and get Resfresh 1 AND Convert too. So yeah, how are you out-doing the WHM again?

Aurara

07-20-2011, 02:40 AM

And aside from Refresh, how is it that the WHM can't do all the above? Why can't the WHM hit those DD's and you somehow can?

EDIT: Oh wait, WHM can just /rdm and get Resfresh 1 AND Convert too. So yeah, how are you out-doing the WHM again?
Maybe to save them the trouble of having to refresh/cure/haste every single person? Really, Refresh2>refresh1 and /sch>/rdm for whm so your point is moot again. You would really expect the whm to cure/haste/refresh every person on an HNM fight so that the RDM could hit the mob with his sword? I must have forgotten the part where RDM can addle/slow2/para2, you know simple things that dont mean anything. Leaving all the haste/cure/refresh duty to the whm is pretty stupid, having another person to share hasting is pretty nice for events like voidwatch.

Edit: I never said I would out-do WHM, do you take me for a fool?

Rayik

07-20-2011, 02:50 AM

Maybe to save them the trouble of having to refresh/cure/haste every single person? Really, Refresh2>refresh1 and /sch>/rdm for whm so your point is moot again. You would really expect the whm to cure/haste/refresh every person on an HNM fight so that the RDM could hit the mob with his sword? I must have forgotten the part where RDM can addle/slow2/para2, you know simple things that dont mean anything. Leaving all the haste/cure/refresh duty to the whm is pretty stupid, having another person to share hasting is pretty nice for events like voidwatch.

Edit: I never said I would out-do WHM, do you take me for a fool?

Anything you can do, a 2nd WHM can do better. In this role, you are a half-assed WHM at best; even with the best gear and skills, a specialist job can cast circles around you. Heck a SCH, which is yet another hybrid, can even -aga most of those buffs you cycle through.

Weren't we just having this go-round on the subject of melee?

Aurara

07-20-2011, 03:10 AM

Anything you can do, a 2nd WHM can do better. In this role, you are a half-assed WHM at best; even with the best gear and skills, a specialist job can cast circles around you. Heck a SCH, which is yet another hybrid, can even -aga most of those buffs you cycle through.

Weren't we just having this go-round on the subject of melee?
So whm can keep mobs slow2/para2'd? A 2nd whm is hardly needed unless its dualboxed, but then again you like arguing in circles to try and prove a point.

Edit: I forgot the 34 DT phalanx that rdm gives, woops! Let's not forget that out of abyssea RDM can still compete with whm for cures and is very useful for backup cures.

Rayik

07-20-2011, 03:15 AM

So whm can keep mobs slow2/para2'd? A 2nd whm is hardly needed unless its dualboxed, but then again you like arguing in circles to try and prove a point.

You see many shouts in PJ for a RDM to para2/slow2 a NM? Really? How am I arguing in circles? Yes, we're going in circles because you are contradicting yourself. My original argument was that a RDM can contribute to dealing damage(but not replace a DD), and you came out swinging like I just insulted the Pope. You argue that a RDM can contribute to buffing and curing(but not replace a WHM). See where I'm going with this? We're saying the same thing.

RDM are the ultimate contributers/support job. RDM fills gaps in parties, but can do very little to stand on it's own.

Rayik

07-20-2011, 03:15 AM

Edit: I forgot the 34 DT phalanx that rdm gives, woops! Let's not forget that out of abyssea RDM can still compete with whm for cures and is very useful for backup cures.

And WHM can add a Stoneskin effect with it's cures. Outside of Abyssea a BLM can back up cure just as well(psst-blm can get cure4 with /whm too). What's your point again?

Aurara

07-20-2011, 03:19 AM

And WHM can add a Stoneskin effect with it's cures. Outside of Abyssea a BLM can back up cure just as well(psst-blm can get cure4 with /whm too)What's your point again?
No...blm can't cure just as well as RDM less Fastcast/poor MP management ability makes its very difficult for a blm/whm(with inferior subjob to boot)to cure DDs.

Rayik

07-20-2011, 03:26 AM

No...blm can't cure just as well as RDM less Fastcast/poor MP management ability makes its very difficult for a blm/whm(with inferior subjob to boot)to cure DDs.

If we're talking back-up cure, sure. BLM can back up a main healing WHM no prob. Main healing? Nope, BLM can't do it. But if your RDM is just back-up healing in that situation, where is the rest of your attention? Enfeebling? Sure, you can cast a couple and given enough potency gear, last a pretty good amount of time. What are you doing during while they are still in effect? You stand there. I melee.

Aurara

07-20-2011, 03:31 AM

Khajit

07-20-2011, 03:32 AM

If a blm is healing it means he was too goddamned stupid to nuke so that the mob would be dead already.

Rayik

07-20-2011, 03:35 AM

I stand there and watch for enfeebs on the melees so i can remove them asap, you get hit by said enfeebs and are unable to do anything because you're /nin and can't take them off yourself after you echo drop yourself. Seriously, rdm shouldn't be meleeing because you feed unnecessary amounts of TP, and usually neglect from your duties, which i can assure you is not meleeing the mob because you think you're helping.

You're assuming an awful lot with this one. Going as far as to decide my subjob for me, yikes. I agree on the TP feed thing, though. RDM melee is still not a great solution in this game by any means, it needs a tweak. But, that's all it needs; just a nudge from the Devs and we could be really viable. BLU does it, the potential is there, just barely out of RDM's reach.

But again, you stand there, when you could be doing something else to contribute and still watch for status. I personally keep a ton of chat filters on, so my log isn't all cluttered and I can see status changes easier.

Aurara

07-20-2011, 03:39 AM

You're assuming an awful lot with this one. Going as far as to decide my subjob for me, yikes. I agree on the TP feed thing, though. RDM melee is still not a great solution in this game by any means, it needs a tweak. But, that's all it needs; just a nudge from the Devs and we could be really viable. BLU does it, the potential is there, just barely out of RDM's reach.
BLU? REALLY? BLU is set up that way, that's the way the spells were designed, if you want to play like BLU so bad, go play BLU

But again, you stand there, when you could be doing something else to contribute and still watch for status. I personally keep a ton of chat filters on, so my log isn't all cluttered and I can see status changes easier.

See, this is a very very foolish statement, because you imply i am not contributing by standing, and that in order to contribute i HAVE to melee, which is completely wrong.

Rayik

07-20-2011, 03:42 AM

If RDM was viable and great currently, there wouldn't be 10 threads in the area begging for an update. If RDM wasn't meant to have any melee potential whatsoever and be relegated to the backline, there wouldn't be 10 threads in this area begging for an update.

That, and we'd probably have some actual staff skill if that were the case. RDM can't even red staff proc.

Rayik

07-20-2011, 03:42 AM

BLU? REALLY? BLU is set up that way, that's the way the spells were designed, if you want to play like BLU so bad, go play BLU

See, this is a very very foolish statement, because you imply i am not contributing by standing, and that in order to contribute i HAVE to melee, which is completely wrong.

I didn't say you had to melee, just not stand there with your thumb up your ass.

Aurara

07-20-2011, 03:45 AM

How is watching for enfeebs on melee standing with my thumb up my ass?

Rayik

07-20-2011, 03:47 AM

How is watching for enfeebs on melee standing with my thumb up my ass?

Most melee call out what they have on them anyway, and you can be doing something else at the same time. Hell, even nuke.

And yes, I said BLU. BLU are a melee/spellcaster, and get access to all the sword-based ws RDM should. I'll admit I'm a little jealous. It's funny, the first RDM in a FF game started out with swords, the first BLU I ever saw(FF5, 6) used a staff. Irony.

Aurara

07-20-2011, 03:49 AM

Most melee call out what they have on them anyway, and you can be doing something else at the same time. Hell, even nuke.
Or you could be a good mage and know what TP moves do what so you can be ready to remove the enfeeb once you see the TP move in the chatlog, like I do.

And yes, I said BLU. BLU are a melee/spellcaster, and get access to all the sword-based ws RDM should. I'll admit I'm a little jealous. It's funny, the first RDM in a FF game started out with swords, the first BLU I ever saw(FF5, 6) used a staff. Irony.
Because FFXI=every other FF game out there.

Supersun

07-20-2011, 03:52 AM

People really are fooling themselves if they think Rdm is going to be super awesome once we leave abyssea.

The simple fact is that excluding saboteur which has been horribly nerfed on any sort of NM the difference between a Rdms and a Whms enfeebles is about 10%. Sure, Rdm can bring refresh 2 to the party as well, but that's only adding +3 MP/tick from what they would normally have which isn't nearly as impressive when jobs pretty much innately already have 3 MP/tick and convert.

So are slightly stronger enfeebles and a little more refresh worth inviting a red mage over another white mages MP pool + cure V+VI for?

Red Mage only becomes slightly more viable when there are 4+ MP users in a party where refresh II actually starts to matter vs just doubling up on that job, but then again you would be better off inviting a Brd since Elegly stacks with slow and ballad stack with refresh.

Whm + Brd's 80% slow and 12 MP/tick kinda annihilates Whm + Rdm's 35% slow and 6 MP/tick.

Rayik

07-20-2011, 03:53 AM

Or you could be a good mage and know what TP moves do what so you can be ready to remove the enfeeb once you see the TP move in the chatlog, like I do.

And who says I don't? I never said I don't play support as well.

Because FFXI=every other FF game out there.

I'm citing the reference to where all this silly RDM melee business originated. You act like it's some totally foreign concept a bunch of us just dreamed up. I'm citing that in FF games, RDM were viable melee mages. They're broke in XI, and we're clamoring for a fix.

Aurara

07-20-2011, 03:55 AM

pld pld whm rdm brd cor tank party \o/

Edit: for voidwatch!

Rayik

07-20-2011, 03:57 AM

pld pld whm rdm brd cor tank party \o/

You got 7 ppl in your party? Two PLD's and a tank? Sweet.

It's your $12.95, play as closed-minded as you please. Some RDM's are content to sit on the sidelines and pretend to be WHM. I'm not a WHM.

Supersun

07-20-2011, 04:04 AM

pld pld whm brd brd cor tank party

Sentinel's Scherzo + Ballad 1

Aurara

07-20-2011, 04:06 AM

You got 7 ppl in your party? Two PLD's and a tank? Sweet.

It's your $12.95, play as closed-minded as you please. Some RDM's are content to sit on the sidelines and pretend to be WHM. I'm not a WHM.

I count 6 PLDx2 RDM WHM BRD COR. I think you're being the close minded one in this case, because you wont consider any boost to rdm unless it is melee oriented.

Aurara

07-20-2011, 04:07 AM

Sentinel's Scherzo + Ballad 1

Lol, suck less SS/March can get refresh from cor and marches as well as have refresh 2

Supersun

07-20-2011, 04:11 AM

Lol, suck less SS/March can get refresh from cor and marches as well as have refresh 2

But why would you invite a Rdm for refresh II when a Brd using Ballad 1 will provide as much MP as the Rdm using Refresh II would, and the brd still has one more song to use.

Aurara

07-20-2011, 04:13 AM

But why would you invite a Rdm for refresh II when a Brd using Ballad 1 will provide as much MP as the Rdm using Refresh II would, and the brd still has one more song to use.

Why would you use inferior ballads? Also, Phalanx 2 is still nice for individual melee hits/TP moves that scherzo wont drop the dmg down on, seriously, you guys make rdm look so useless its incredible.

Rayik

07-20-2011, 04:14 AM

Rayik

07-20-2011, 04:15 AM

I count 6 PLDx2 RDM WHM BRD COR. I think you're being the close minded one in this case, because you wont consider any boost to rdm unless it is melee oriented.

Ah, I see it now. Punctuation works wonders, man. You know, apostrophe's, comma's and shit.

Aurara

07-20-2011, 04:16 AM

Ah, I see it now. Punctuation works wonders, man. You know, apostrophe's, comma's and shit.

Ad hominem attacks really make you look ridiculous.

Rayik

07-20-2011, 04:18 AM

Ad hominem attacks really make you look ridiculous.

Ah, there's that big word again. I'm just discussing, you're the one doing the attacking. "Suck less" isn't very nice.

Supersun

07-20-2011, 04:18 AM

Why would you use inferior ballads? Also, Phalanx 2 is still nice for individual melee hits/TP moves that scherzo wont drop the dmg down on, seriously, you guys make rdm look so useless its incredible.

That was more of the point. If Ballad ONE is equal to refresh II then why would you EVER consider a Red Mage for refresh unless you already have 2 bards, a corsair, and 2x of the job you are refreshing.

And you're going to invite a red mage for phalanx...really? Phalanx does shit for TP attacks and for everything else there's utsusemi not to mention you know, Pld has Phalanx natively now.

Really, list one scenario where you think Rdm is useful and I can probably replace it with a better job.

Aurara

07-20-2011, 04:20 AM

Who subs nin in voidwatch on pld? How does phalanx do shit for TP moves? It takes off a set amount of both physical/magic damage, why is this a bad thing to bring to the table?

Rayik

07-20-2011, 04:26 AM

Ad hominem attacks really make you look ridiculous.

The more I think on this, you're the one who spent the majority of the threads making presumptions about the people we play with, about the gear we use, subjobs, and even making larger assumptions about how we play, with no knowledge of such. Twice you've brought up Ad Hominem. Nice. So are you the Pot, or the Kettle?

Aurara

07-20-2011, 04:29 AM

So are you ever going to bring up valid arguments other than attacking my about things that arent even related to final fantasy xi. If that's the case, show us your gear sets for meleeing, show us the people you play with, show us how you play even, if you can't do that then you should probably stop arguing because I can ask the same thing of you, but if I did that you would make up some silly excuse as to why you couldn't.

6 man voidwatch vid on youtube: pld cor rdm whm smnx2. So sorry wut.

Supersun

07-20-2011, 04:34 AM

Plds already get Phalanx which means the benefit that a Rdms phalanx brings to the table is the difference between a Pld and a Rdms phalanx.

I'm 99% sure with my quick guesstimation that the the difference between a Rdms Phalanx and a Plds phalanx is going to be less then 5 damage.

You aren't going to invite a rdm for 5 less damage per hit compared to what a brd can do.

Aurara

07-20-2011, 04:35 AM

So less is better? I had no idea that was the new thing to do.

Supersun

07-20-2011, 04:36 AM

So less is better? I had no idea that was the new thing to do.

Economic cost bro

5 less damage is only better when compared to every other option and there's nothing better.

Greatguardian

07-20-2011, 05:56 AM

My god, this thread.

So Refresh gear is worthless because RDM has Refresh? Losing 1,000 MP per Convert doesn't matter? MAB swords or MND swords are useful?

Eesh.

Neisan_Quetz

07-20-2011, 06:33 AM

Did I miss something where Ballad 1 gives 7 mp/tick over ~5 minutes?

Aurara

07-20-2011, 06:47 AM

Ballad 1 is the superior ballad obviously.

Greatguardian

07-20-2011, 06:48 AM

Did I miss something where Ballad 1 gives 7 mp/tick over ~5 minutes?

Not sure if you were replying to me. I'm catching up on the last few pages. Rayin was replying to my earlier posts a few pages ago, saying that "Losing 6/tic refresh in gear by melee'ing is not a big deal because RDM has a spell called Refresh".

Neisan_Quetz

07-20-2011, 06:50 AM

Was replying to Supersun saying Ballad 1 was equal to Refresh 2, I'm trying to figure out how.

Karbuncle

07-20-2011, 06:55 AM

IDK, Either way, Even I'm sad how far this thread has devolved into special-Olympics territory.

I don't think the guy arguing for RDM melee realizes he epitomizes every reason its not acceptable. the whole "Half-assed" attitude of using Gimp Swords to compliment his mage abilities (Why stop there? should fulltime teal brah).

The reason RDM Melee is looked at negatively is because obviously, its not great, but also because of the bad RDMs giving it a bad name. Namely those who find it acceptable to use inferior weapons (MAB swords, MAcc swords) to make up for their lack of Staves, When they'd be better off using useful wepaonry and just switchint to a staff/wand when its absolutely necessary.

Supersun

07-20-2011, 07:17 AM

Was replying to Supersun saying Ballad 1 was equal to Refresh 2, I'm trying to figure out how.

Err yeah, forgot about our pants that makes it 7 MP/tick.

But you can't look at refresh 2 and say that it gives 6 MP a tick. You have to look at the economic cost of what you are losing from using refresh II which is basically it overwriting refresh 1 which every mage should already have so in essence all you are really giving the mage is 3-4 MP/tick.

Bard has received armor and instruments to augment their ballads to the point where Ballad 1 can give +3 MP/tick that stacks WITH refresh 1. So in essence Refresh II is giving someone 7 Mp/tick while Ballad + Refresh is giving someone 6 MP/tick.

And this is with just with ONE bard song (the weakest ballad too). It still frees up the other song for something useful like Sentinel's Scherzo.

Aurara

07-20-2011, 07:21 AM

Still not sure why you're arguing for less MP/tick.

Eeek

07-20-2011, 07:33 AM

Err yeah, forgot about our pants that makes it 7 MP/tick.

But you can't look at refresh 2 and say that it gives 6 MP a tick. You have to look at the economic cost of what you are losing from using refresh II which is basically it overwriting refresh 1 which every mage should already have so in essence all you are really giving the mage is 3-4 MP/tick.

Bard has received armor and instruments to augment their ballads to the point where Ballad 1 can give +3 MP/tick that stacks WITH refresh 1. So in essence Refresh II is giving someone 7 Mp/tick while Ballad + Refresh is giving someone 6 MP/tick.

And this is with just with ONE bard song (the weakest ballad too). It still frees up the other song for something useful like Sentinel's Scherzo.

In this hypothetical PLD PLD BRD COR RDM WHM tank party, why in the hell would the WHM and BRD go /RDM? /SCH and /WHM, respectively (maybe /SCH for the BRD?). I can't speak to what the PLDs should sub as I've never done Voidwatch, but assuming /RDM, why would they waste their time casting Refresh I on themselves if a RDM is present to cast Refresh II? They have better things to do and will want the better Refresh.

Doombringer

07-20-2011, 07:46 AM

thanks karbuncle.. at this point i just feel the need to say it..

i DO come down on the pro-melee side of this debate..

but my rdm melees with a fucking almace..........

Hyrist

07-20-2011, 07:48 AM

Still not sure why you're arguing for less MP/tick.
Out of context, neither am I. Hold on *backreads*

"Losing 6/tic refresh in gear by melee'ing is not a big deal because RDM has a spell called Refresh"
Ah.

Loosing 6mp/tic (Earring, Body (2), Hat, boot/gloves (1)... and I'm guessing the augmented undies, god please tell me there's an alternative.) Is kind of irrelevant in the contexts you WOULD be meleeing, as your casting load is simply not that high.

And by casting load I mean main healing (in situations in which incoming damage is high or debuffs on the party members are plentiful), being the primary magic proc (Dynamis) or nuking your face off.

Not that our idle gear hasn't gotten dead sexy in the time I've been away. It has. Getting those pieces are kind of a priority for me right now. But there hasn't been much in the way of increased casting difficulty/load for us yet in any situation in which we'd front line, and we've already gotten an additional 3 mp/tic, buff duration enhancements, and a crap ton of other bonuses through gear that have actually offset our overall costs. Which will be even more MP efficient if/when we get Cure V.

There's a reason why it's called 'idle' gear. However. We're supposed to be wearing it when we're not doing anything. (and yes, duh, I realize we can piecemeal it to have some form of constant refresh while casting.) And honestly, especially for the back line. I want to be doing more.

Supersun

07-20-2011, 07:56 AM

Still not sure why you're arguing for less MP/tick.

First off it's not quite a full 1 MP/tick since you have to consider the initial MP spent for those spell and ballad being free.
In terms of party total MP it's a bit closer to .8 MP/tick if you include the MP cost of the spells.

And I'm not sure about you but losing .8 MP/tick for one more song like Sentinel is WELL worth the cost.
If for some reason you really need the MP then Pld, Pld, Whm, Cor, Brd, Smn would be MUCH better anyway.

why in the hell would the WHM and BRD go /RDM? /SCH and /WHM, respectively (maybe /SCH for the BRD?).

Convert? Can /sch really compete with that MP efficiency? I'm not the best mathematician in the world, but /sch would have to save more then 1000 MP every 10 mins.

And I agree that the whm shouldn't be casting refresh on themselves if they don't have to. In a Pld, Pld, Whm, Cor, Brd, Brd set up one of the Brds should be doing it instead.

For now you could make a point that a Brd subbing /sch or /whm might be better for cure IV, but by 99 the only argument against /rdm will be status heals.

Seriously, Brd/Rdm is going to be the enhancing superman.