On Red Mage melee...

[Doombringer]

Here you go again, attacking me because you have no bases for an argument, I even told you to melee if you really wanted to, but know it's not efficient.


it's like talking to a brick... we aren't discussing rdm melee NOW. we're discussing what rdm melee SHOULD BE. the only people that ever talk about rdm melee NOW is people like you, who pop in to derail the thread, and ppl that get tricked into taking that bait.

unless the next thing you type is some melee related change to the job or the game, don't type it. you're just missing the point and pissing people off. if you continue to type things that have nothing to do with the intent of the thread, we can all just safely assume you're trolling us.

it's not efficient, the tone of every one of your posts has been "don't bother" or "it'd be op" really? it goes from useless, or less than useless, harmful as you've put it.. to overpowered? there is no middle ground? my 15$ a month doesn't pay someones salary whose job it is, is to figure that shit out?

we should just give up and all quit rdm? cuz i've been thinking about it for quite a while.... and i know many others who have. problem for me is, no job plays like what i was sold when i first bought ffxi. so i might just have to quit ffxi.

[Aurara]

it's like talking to a brick... we aren't discussing rdm melee NOW. we're discussing what rdm melee SHOULD BE. the only people that ever talk about rdm melee NOW is people like you, who pop in to derail the thread, and ppl that get tricked into taking that bait.

unless the next thing you type is some melee related change to the job or the game, don't type it. you're just missing the point and pissing people off. if you continue to type things that have nothing to do with the intent of the thread, we can all just safely assume you're trolling us.

it's not efficient, the tone of every one of your posts has been "don't bother" or "it'd be op" really? it goes from useless, or less than useless, harmful as you've put it.. to overpowered? there is no middle ground? my 15$ a month doesn't pay someones salary whose job it is, is to figure that shit out?

we should just give up and all quit rdm? cuz i've been thinking about it for quite a while.... and i know many others who have. problem for me is, no job plays like what i was sold when i first bought ffxi. so i might just have to quit ffxi.

Are you serious? I told you why RDM melee couldn't work, because they would have to buff RDM enspells/do things to them that would be seriously broken. YOU guys are the ones who are coming out at me swinging telling me I'm an idiot/troll, and i said this earlier...how is ANYONE supposed to take you guy seriously if all you do is kick and scream TROLL TROLL TROLL when somebody comes in and points out flaws, instead of butting heads maybe you should work together to find an ultimatum. Nobody is stopping you from meleeing, but be warned, do it right or you're doing the entire community a disservice.

[Thunderlips]

By comparison to RDM almost every job in the game is OP and Ridiculous, especially at end game and especially with their AF3+2.

We are brainstorming how to get our job, the one that was fine to melee from lvls 1-50, back to doing what we like doing. Which is melee/heal/nuke. I didn't say play a piss poor BLM/WHM that can't melee properly, because that is what we currently are.

The only thing that I am needed for is Phallanx 2 for FCs. Kinda like I was only good for Refresh a couple years back. When this game came out RDM was legit, it was fun, and I loved the shit out of it. Why make RDM great at the beginning and then pull the rug out from under us as soon as we get to the end game?

1-50 you are talking a very small difference in the skill levels of jobs, after 50 is when the more skilled jobs (A and above) really begin to pull away from the pack while those jobs with a lower skill level start to fall behind more and more. It makes sens that a job who only has a B for its best melee skill falls behind on tougher mobs.

I have used my RDM to melee a lot of things that have been tough and though it takes me a long time to kill them, I rarely am in fear of dying to anything, even if i get a decent number of adds. I'm sure I am far from having the perfect RDM DD set but for the gear I have (which was easy enough to get) but unless something is VT+, it's not even a challenge to kill.

Personally I don't see RDM melee being broken, I guess its just the fact that too many in the past have tried to DD in terrible gear/no food on mobs that were too high of a level to do a decent amount of damage on.

[Duelle]

FFXI Needs more BRD's not a lot of people level it and use it sadly. :(That's more the fault of class design. I'm not surprised that few want to play a class that basically runs back and forth and recasts songs, with random pulling to break the monotony. It's weak and archaic design.

CST (Cool Story, Taru) time: I used to be a guild leader in Lineage II a couple of years ago. During my two year run in that game, I noticed that Bladedancers (which are basically a bard archetype that can wield two swords and have their own array of attacks aside from their buffs) nearly outnumbered everyone else who played damage classes. They were everywhere, and most leveling parties always had one, two, or even three depending on what time of day it was.

The funny thing is that they weren't OP or anywhere near it (in fact, they were weaker than the "real" damage classes and were very squishy). They merely drew in a lot of people based on design, looks (yeah, I know the guys that don't mind wearing pink subligaria for the extra 2 STR don't care about aesthetics), and the fact that you weren't just spamming your buffs. Compared to our bard class, BD was a success as far as I'm concerned, as you almost always had one around when you needed one and they still could contribute while doing their own thing. Basically, how every buff-oriented class should be designed if the performance of other players has to hinge on whether they're in the party or not.

Which really does narrow down our solutions to one: Have Red Mage deal negative TP gain to the monsters in question. At that point, a Red Mage can do Lulzy damage, and it would not matter. The fact that someone is both Tping free of additional risk, as well as lowering the risk for those around them, would widely broaden Red Mage's acceptability in the front lines.A nice idea, but alone it won't do much. It needs to be part of a larger set of changes. Also, lulzy damage would still be a real negative to having a RDM in the front, as the damage generated by other classes would have a good chance of outweighing the utility.

[Seriha]

Here you go again, attacking me because you have no bases for an argument, I even told you to melee if you really wanted to, but know it's not efficient.

Uh, our basis is "we know it sucks" and you yammering about how things are now/were is telling us nothing we don't know. Furthermore, insisting that's how things should stay despite the possibility of improvements countering any and all negatives is what has us "losing civility" toward you. We get it, you're not interested, and are basically living up to my prior suspicion.

Christ, you wanna babble on about damage reduction sets, but at the same time shoot down an idea that could translate to an instant 10-15% damage reduction on TP moves for everyone who doesn't have a BRD+SMN in their party before that gear even comes into play. You go on citing Subtle Blow is useless because of /NIN, Auspice, and Rajas, even though SE could easily tweak caps and implement further TP management tools. Then cry about how a RDM isn't doing their duties if they're swinging, but when they're buffing in full Emp+2 with Cape, more or less doubling durations of Haste/Refresh, you're saying you're okay standing with their thumb up their butt in the back? Because there's nothing about hitting auto-attack that suddenly blocks out the HP pool of party members for doling out emergency cures or panning the camera for the occasional link to be slept, if that's even a threat in a given camp. And, well, you've otherwise been implying that a WHM and RDM should never be in the same party, which is a concept of role redundancy this thread has attempted to address on multiple occasions and I know for sure that I've rambled about it years prior on other sites. Instead, people would just rather drop the RDM, even if it was the only thing seeking. Can't say that bodes for being a meaningful generalist.

[Aurara]

Christ, you wanna babble on about damage reduction sets, but at the same time shoot down an idea that could translate to an instant 10-15% damage reduction on TP moves for everyone who doesn't have a BRD+SMN in their party before that gear even comes into play. You go on citing Subtle Blow is useless because of /NIN, Auspice, and Rajas, even though SE could easily tweak caps and implement further TP management tools. Then cry about how a RDM isn't doing their duties if they're swinging, but when they're buffing in full Emp+2 with Cape, more or less doubling durations of Haste/Refresh, you're saying you're okay standing with their thumb up their butt in the back? Because there's nothing about hitting auto-attack that suddenly blocks out the HP pool of party members for doling out emergency cures or panning the camera for the occasional link to be slept, if that's even a threat in a given camp. And, well, you've otherwise been implying that a WHM and RDM should never be in the same party, which is a concept of role redundancy this thread has attempted to address on multiple occasions and I know for sure that I've rambled about it years prior on other sites. Instead, people would just rather drop the RDM, even if it was the only thing seeking. Can't say that bodes for being a meaningful generalist.

What idea to reduce 10-15% dmg? RDM shouldn't be meleeing in the tank pt when they have multiple DDs to cure, come on really lol? Raise the subtle blow cap JUST for rdm? That's ridiculous. It's not crying when i have seen it hundreds of times, RDMs meleeing, not hasting, not curing, not refreshing anyone but themselves.

[ManaKing]

You don't get it, I'm not here to make fun of you, or call you names(like you are calling me), if I was here to troll I dont think i'd be trying to understand your point of view, but how am I supposed to take you seriously if all you do is call me a troll/idiot when our ideas conflict? You want it to be desirable in a party setting, I get it, but what you dont get is that in order for that to happen, they would need to give RDM ridiculous buffs.

So what? Look at what is coming for the next job updates. They aren't exactly mild.

This entire thread is about RDM is pathetic at melee and we want it changed so that people can get at least decent without having to do what we did. Hunt a bunch of gear. We get it.

You seem to think that we believe that RDM melee is a good idea right now. None of us do. We do it because it is fun. But why can't we have fun and be effective? Everyone else seems to be able to.

[Aurara]

You seem to think that we believe that RDM melee is a good idea right now. None of us do. We do it because it is fun. But why can't we have fun and be effective? Everyone else seems to be able to.
I have this mindset from what i have experienced, but please don't assume that im against you, it would be neat to make rdm more melee friendly, but you have to realize that the number of people who would only DD rdm are greater than those who could play it properly.

[Duelle]

What idea to reduce 10-15% dmg? RDM shouldn't be meleeing in the tank pt when they have multiple DDs to cure, come on really lol? Raise the subtle blow cap JUST for rdm? That's ridiculous. It's not crying when i have seen it hundreds of times, RDMs meleeing, not hasting, not curing, not refreshing anyone but themselves.Cycling is NOT and should not be part of a front-liner's responsibilities. Occasional utility and cures are fine. Cycles and everything that come with it, no.

[Aurara]

Cycling is NOT and should not be part of a front-liner's responsibilities. Occasional utility and cures are fine. Cycles and everything that come with it, no.

Back before abyssea when RDM was the most common healer, this was not acceptable. RDM is NOT a front-liner as you claim it to be, it is a MAGE, yes it can melee, but if you only "DD" RDM, you're playing it wrong and giving RDMs out there a terrible name.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Back before abyssea when RDM was the most common healer, this was not acceptable. RDM is NOT a front-liner as you claim it to be, it is a MAGE, yes it can melee, but if you only "DD" RDM, you're playing it wrong and giving RDMs out there a terrible name.

Red Mage is a Melee Mage, Front lining with backup utility was a real RDM, the FFXI RDM though however is completely different to the actual RDM job in the FF Series.

[Seriha]

Oh snap, the mage card. BLUs go home, yo!

[Hyrist]

And you claim to not be 'against' anything. Sure.

Again, this is why I usually don't bother responding to you people at length. There is nothing short but total elitism in your tone, words, and excuses.

Your first mistake was making the implication that you, an individual, can speak for the majority of players as to the 'role of our job' Cycling buffs isn't it, I'll tell you that right now. That is a role that can be filled by anyone /whm right now and /rdm at 99. Whatever possesses you to believe that Red Mage will be able to hold onto that horribly pathetic excuse for a player role as the levels continue to incline. Bard, Corsair, and Scholar can all preform that duty better than we can currently EVEN WITH the buff duration extension.


Let me break this down easily for you Aurara:

1. Nobody here is happy about Red Mage's current performance in the front lines.

2. Nobody here expects Red Mage to preform the exact same duities in the front lines as in the back, however...

3. Everybody here expects Red Mage to function as a support job, regardless of the front or back line position.

It's not about the RDM just doing damage. It's about what we can do while we are in the front lines. We would like to be able to do MORE. Not in terms of damage, that's what other players seem to want to have us do. What we want, is a utility: Something to make us more useful by being in the front lines: To the point where it's ok for a RDM to be in the front, casting a situational amount of support spells while preforming other front line utilities.

We collectively, as Red Mages, want to get to the point where doing as described above can be done without argument.

You say it's impossible, we disagree and we have plenty of ideas on how it could work. Whether or not it's acceptable by the playerbase, isn't up to just you.

Nor isn't going away. This is called "The Eternal Debate" for a reason. Short of removing Sword and Dagger skill from Red Mage all together, you will never, ever, get us to stop pushing, to stop trying. It is a selling point of the job class and honestly, it is also our biggest challenge. And if Career RDMs love anything, it's a challenge.

It is in your best interest to stop thinking about 'can't' and start thinking about 'how'. Because you're never going to be without the RDM front-line supporters. SE has made sure of that as it keeps advertising RDM in the front lines. (The prize accomplishment items for RDM are swords and daggers, not staves, they keep showing RDM featured with swords/etc.)

Paired off by the fact that giving us a functional utility in the front lines would be the most assured way to give RDM some powerful identity back, there really isn't a reason why NOT to boost the performance.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Drop the previous Rdm argument first though, it isn't a RPG, it's a MMO, so it goes both ways. The battle system/casting sytem doesn't support being able to effectively do what you could in a single player as it does in the current MMO of FFXI.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Drop the previous Rdm argument first though, it isn't a RPG, it's a MMO, so it goes both ways. The battle system/casting sytem doesn't support being able to effectively do what you could in a single player as it does in the current MMO of FFXI.

... you serious?

Melee capability isn't possible in an MMO now?

Fast Cast to 50% was originally added for RDM as they couldn't add doublecast but at least it sort of equaled the same (even if every mage now has it in some form), it's not too much to ask the melee be adjusted a little so it's actually capable, that or remove Swords and Daggers and just give us staff skill and call us SCH v. Inferior.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I didn't say it wasn't capable, I said it's not going to be as effective.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I didn't say it wasn't capable, I said it's not going to be as effective.

They are paid to think, if the developers can't think how to do so, even if they did it via RDM's enspells then they shouldn't be a game developer.

Honestly though, do you think it acceptable for RDM to be inferior to WHM where melee damage is concerned despite it being the Melee mage and WHM not?

[Hyrist]

It does go both ways, however.

Every MMO version of FF job class is built off of the basis of what it was in previous iterations, down to blink tanking.

What the problem is Red Mage is the focal point of where these two genres (RPG, MMO) Clash, and it classes very hard.

It's not so much about bad class design. Yes, Red Mage needs improvements in the front line. But the main issue is role redundancy. "No Red Mage and White Mage together in a party." Is the elitist mentality that just does not let Red Mage's iconic role fit in. Which, if the game keeps itself mostly casual, is fine. But if we're going to switch the game tone back to "OMG WE NEED 18 PEOPLE TO DO ANYTHING IMPORTANT" the job's going to die a very painful death. And it's already doing so.

Theres a support divide between front and back line roles. Back Line role you're basically functioning like a Scholar should, with more emphasis on cyling buffs and laying down enfeebles.

Front lines, it's more about filling gaps, and being a generalist. You're looking for opportunities to enhance damage, and laying on the enfeebles thickly, picking a partner to give the extra duration buffs to. But it really varies depending on the situation and the moment.(In Dynamis, for me, it's about procs, side tanking, etc) And it's more fun that way.

And honestly, a lot of the arguments about RDM front-lining is more of a question of where and when. Outside difficult NMs, it really does not matter if they do or they don't. People switch tones on their argument that 'X job plays that better' which is a moot argument if that job is not available or someone doesn't care to play it.

[Aurara]

And you claim to not be 'against' anything. Sure.

Again, this is why I usually don't bother responding to you people at length. There is nothing short but total elitism in your tone, words, and excuses.
See, here you go again, assuming things about me..I'm TRYING to understand your point of view, instead of screaming at me maybe you should understand mine.


Your first mistake was making the implication that you, an individual, can speak for the majority of players as to the 'role of our job' Cycling buffs isn't it, I'll tell you that right now. That is a role that can be filled by anyone /whm right now and /rdm at 99. Whatever possesses you to believe that Red Mage will be able to hold onto that horribly pathetic excuse for a player role as the levels continue to incline. Bard, Corsair, and Scholar can all preform that duty better than we can currently EVEN WITH the buff duration extension.
I never stated that I spoke for the majority, because I don't. I'm positive SE will give RDM some awesome spells/JA to make them wanted more 95+ i mean for Voidwatch they're already wanted more. BRD SCH COR WHM can't do it as well as you claim they will be able to, they don't get the same boost to length timer that rdm does, and they lack Refresh II, something that in itself is amazing. You are being pessimistic about RDM.



Let me break this down easily for you Aurara:

1. Nobody here is happy about Red Mage's current performance in the front lines.
Why should they? It's terrible, on weaker mobs it isnt as noticeable, but as the mobs get higher lvl, it begins to show.


2. Nobody here expects Red Mage to preform the exact same duities in the front lines as in the back, however...
Tell this to the people who refuse to haste/refresh/cure/buff/debuff mobs cause they're too busy meleeing to care.


3. Everybody here expects Red Mage to function as a support job, regardless of the front or back line position.
This IS RDM's job, meleeing is not, I've already explained why I'm not doing it again.


It's not about the RDM just doing damage. It's about what we can do while we are in the front lines. We would like to be able to do MORE. Not in terms of damage, that's what other players seem to want to have us do. What we want, is a utility: Something to make us more useful by being in the front lines: To the point where it's ok for a RDM to be in the front, casting a situational amount of support spells while preforming other front line utilities.
You ignore the fact that 99.99% of people wouldnt be able to perform the duties of a RDM and would only do "DD" RDM, wouldn't get invites because they sucked, and then would come here and cry for more broken buffs to melee rdm.



We collectively, as Red Mages, want to get to the point where doing as described above can be done without argument.
Not possible, in order to make rdm viable on frontlines would have to make it broken.



You say it's impossible, we disagree and we have plenty of ideas on how it could work. Whether or not it's acceptable by the playerbase, isn't up to just you.
Your "ideas" are completely broken, and the same could be said to you about your ideas, it isnt up to you either.


Nor isn't going away. This is called "The Eternal Debate" for a reason. Short of removing Sword and Dagger skill from Red Mage all together, you will never, ever, get us to stop pushing, to stop trying. It is a selling point of the job class and honestly, it is also our biggest challenge. And if Career RDMs love anything, it's a challenge.
So because I dont like melee rdm/disagree with it I'm not a "career" rdm? Please, I'm not asking you to stop asking I'm asking you to be logical about what you want, and to think about the longterm effects/how it would impact the balance of the game.


It is in your best interest to stop thinking about 'can't' and start thinking about 'how'. Because you're never going to be without the RDM front-line supporters. SE has made sure of that as it keeps advertising RDM in the front lines. (The prize accomplishment items for RDM are swords and daggers, not staves, they keep showing RDM featured with swords/etc.)
Because swords are feature of RDM, and have always been. This is like saying "war's af1 weapon is an axe, WAR should ONLY use axes!" It doesn't hold water because WAR w/axes is terrible.


Paired off by the fact that giving us a functional utility in the front lines would be the most assured way to give RDM some powerful identity back, there really isn't a reason why NOT to boost the performance.
This it assuming it will, and it's not safe to assume anything.

[Razushu]

They are paid to think, if the developers can't think how to do so, even if they did it via RDM's enspells then they shouldn't be a game developer.

Honestly though, do you think it acceptable for RDM to be inferior to WHM where melee damage is concerned despite it being the Melee mage and WHM not?

I never noticed a RDM melee doing anything but nice Light DD damage while having it's mage abilities still at the ready if they're a good player.

WHM in 11 seems to have passed through D&D on it's way to get here and was designed to have a healthy melee side to it too

[Hyrist]

A nice idea, but alone it won't do much. It needs to be part of a larger set of changes. Also, lulzy damage would still be a real negative to having a RDM in the front, as the damage generated by other classes would have a good chance of outweighing the utility.

It'll do enough, especially if it scales correctly. The idea isn't so much to out-compete other jobs, but to allow the existing function to be used without argument. From that point we can move onto increasing the average performance through gear/job abilities, etc.

But that wont get pushed unless there's a utility that allows us to be there in the first place. Too much arguments among players to get any headway with the 'I want nothing but teh bestz' crowd.

Again, half the time they're talking about entirely different situations. I don't want to melee Voidwatch mobs (though I would if I thought it was useful. It's not.) I want it so I can draw my sword without people having a fit about it.

[Seriha]

Again with 99.9% and all sorts of fun fictional statistics.

Chase down 100 meleeing RDMs on your server, take screenshots, have a parse, link to FFXIAH profiles, the whole nine yards. I'll be disappointed if at least 99 of them aren't in full mage gear swinging a martial anelace.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I've yet to meet one not meleeing in mage crap either, except myself

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I never noticed a RDM melee doing anything but nice Light DD damage while having it's mage abilities still at the ready if they're a good player.

WHM in 11 seems to have passed through D&D on it's way to get here and was designed to have a healthy melee side to it too

Don't get me wrong I have nothing against WHM being able to Melee, more the fact it's better than RDM's.

I should note, I'm on about basic gear set for meleeing, I mean WHM can cap the Equipment haste cap much easier than RDM can.

[Aurara]

Again with 99.9% and all sorts of fun fictional statistics.

Chase down 100 meleeing RDMs on your server, take screenshots, have a parse, link to FFXIAH profiles, the whole nine yards. I'll be disappointed if at least 99 of them aren't in full mage gear swinging a martial anelace.
Lol, poking holes in my argument to make it seem like it holds no water. My argument is still valid, 99.99% was a made up number meant to represent the majority of melee RDM I have met.

[Hyrist]

Not possible, in order to make rdm viable on frontlines would have to make it broken.

Then you've no further place in this conversation, aside from trolling.

[Aurara]

Don't get me wrong I have nothing against WHM being able to Melee, more the fact it's better than RDM's.

I should note, I'm on about basic gear set for meleeing, I mean WHM can cap the Equipment haste cap much easier than RDM can.

RDM can cap easy, lol...
Turban/sent shield
Goliard NQ dusk/goading belt/3% ASA legs/NQ dusk feet

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Again with 99.9% and all sorts of fun fictional statistics.

Chase down 100 meleeing RDMs on your server, take screenshots, have a parse, link to FFXIAH profiles, the whole nine yards. I'll be disappointed if at least 99 of them aren't in full mage gear swinging a martial anelace.

To be fair, I have seen a few in just mage gear meleeing.

I'm personally trying to build a TP set for when I'm bored and still hunting the vile Dark Rings, and Refresh hairpin for WHM. Though finding and getting gear is annoying, still have yet to even see the Goliard Saio let along get it.



RDM can cap easy, lol...
Turban/sent shield
Goliard NQ dusk/goading belt/3% ASA legs/NQ dusk feet

I didn't say they couldn't, I said WHM could cap easier.

Zelus Tiara and you can get rid of that crap shield as you'd /nin

[Aurara]

Then you've no further place in this conversation, aside from trolling.

Except I haven't been trolling, I'm pointing out that every one of the ideas that has been spouted out of here would break the balance of the game/overpower RDM and you guys really don't seem to get that.

[Aurara]

To be fair, I have seen a few in just mage gear meleeing.

I'm personally trying to build a TP set for when I'm bored and still hunting the vile Dark Rings, and Refresh hairpin for WHM. Though finding and getting gear is annoying, still have yet to even see the Goliard Saio let along get it.




I didn't say they couldn't, I said WHM could cap easier.

Zelus Tiara and you can get rid of that crap shield as you'd /nin

I left tiara out because people would cry how hard it is to get.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I left tiara out because people would cry how hard it is to get.

Nothings hard in Abyssea, Weakness then kill, if you struggle to kill it brew it. lvl.75 content is harder than Abyssea still.

[Aurara]

I know this, i have a tiara, went 7/8, but my statement stands, people tend to make things harder than needed.

[Razushu]

Don't get me wrong I have nothing against WHM being able to Melee, more the fact it's better than RDM's.

I should note, I'm on about basic gear set for meleeing, I mean WHM can cap the Equipment haste cap much easier than RDM can.

I know WHM haste gear is a bit ridiculous 15% before you start trying, I think they melee better to make up the fact you can nuke(this is speculation on Dev motivations)

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I know this, i have a tiara, went 7/8, but my statement stands, people tend to make things harder than needed.

Lucky. I want that thing so bad, along with the dumb refresh hairpin.



I know WHM haste gear is a bit ridiculous 15% before you start trying, I think they melee better to make up the fact you can nuke(this is speculation on Dev motivations)

Possibly, I would like to know the Dev's plans for RDM (Well all jobs really), so I know whether to continue to level it to 99, or stop. Hopefully the Job Road-Map will show it.

[Aurara]

Lucky. I want that thing so bad, along with the dumb refresh hairpin.

I have this too, :P

[Seriha]

To be fair, I have seen a few in just mage gear meleeing.

As have I, I'm just poking fun at this glorious omniscience that speaks of all RDMs on all servers at any given moment. Meanwhile, he's just just chirp, chirp, chirping away on BG how we all have no arguments, whining that we're poking holes, ignoring things, and emitting drab stereotypes while remaining blissfully unaware or willfully ignorant of the thread's premise. As Hyrist pretty much pointed out a few posts back, if they're not even willing to contribute positively, they're not exactly a welcome presence.


Except I haven't been trolling, I'm pointing out that every one of the ideas that has been spouted out of here would break the balance of the game/overpower RDM and you guys really don't seem to get that.Enlighten us, then. What would you do? Nothing is not an acceptable answer.

[Duelle]

Back before abyssea when RDM was the most common healer, this was not acceptable.Of course not. The damage was and still is below par and people were too damn desperate for healers.

RDM is NOT a front-liner as you claim it to be, it is a MAGE, yes it can melee, but if you only "DD" RDM, you're playing it wrong and giving RDMs out there a terrible name.Firstly, RDM is a melee mage.

Secondly, it's impossible to contribute what is expected of a front-liner along with the buff cycles and everything else. If Refresh procced on the whole party from an on-use Job Ability (like the one I mentioned in the Red is Obsolete thread) and haste could be AoEd and lasted 30 minutes, I might be inclined to change my opinion on the matter.

Shackling us to Refresh, Haste and Cures has done much, much more to damage the name of Red Mage than the melee enthusiasts ever have. The bandwagon jumpers loved their fact invites, but that's where it begins and ends.

Drop the previous Rdm argument first though, it isn't a RPG, it's a MMO, so it goes both ways. The battle system/casting sytem doesn't support being able to effectively do what you could in a single player as it does in the current MMO of FFXI.That's not really necessary. Certain parts of most jobs were kept up to concept. PLD is very well design, as is WHM and BLM. The problem comes with RDM because of balance reasons, and such a situation calls for adjusting the job to still match its concept from previous FFs but with a new spin.

RDM got a new spin, but it was the wrong and possibly worst spin we could ever get from a design perspective; The magic swordsman turned into a refresh bot.

What the problem is Red Mage is the focal point of where these two genres (RPG, MMO) Clash, and it classes very hard.This is because the original developers wanted to keep the pure generalist design, despite all signs and evidence from the past to show it didn't work and led to something unpleasant, and in the worst cases, pure bait-and-switch.

Granted, companies like Blizzard only recently opened their eyes on the matter, and guys like Trion opened their eyes because Blizzard did it first.

You ignore the fact that 99.99% of people wouldnt be able to perform the duties of a RDM and would only do "DD" RDM, wouldn't get invites because they sucked, and then would come here and cry for more broken buffs to melee rdm.False. People will still play what they want to play and will still get brought. Just like how RDM "sucked" the entirety of abyssea as healers yet were still borught for exactly that purpose.

Not possible, in order to make rdm viable on frontlines would have to make it broken.False. You've seen the plethora of ideas in this thread alone. That's not even going into my yet-to-be-posted redesign of the job.

So because I dont like melee rdm/disagree with it I'm not a "career" rdm?Not one to defend Hyrist, as he and I disagree a lot on RDM, but stop putting words in his mouth.
Please, I'm not asking you to stop asking I'm asking you to be logical about what you want, and to think about the longterm effects/how it would impact the balance of the game.What long term balance effects? The fact that some of us would start meleeing while those that like to heal and support would just keep on doing that?

Because swords are feature of RDM, and have always been. This is like saying "war's af1 weapon is an axe, WAR should ONLY use axes!" It doesn't hold water because WAR w/axes is terrible.The sword is only a means to an end. Red Mage is a combination of thre disciplines: Destructive/Crippling Magic, Healing/Defensive Magic and Martial prowess. We've been 2/3 for too long now, and that needs to be corrected.

[Hyrist]

Goading is harder than Tiara, honestly.

Calmecac Trousers is better than ASA legs, in spite of the Acc Down.

And Sentinel's Shield Murders DW, even if you're not hitting the haste cap without it you're better off taking full advantage of DW.

Most your points are laced with the same bias that's been not only done to death, but disproven before it got accentuated post abyssea.

Some of the ideas are broken here intentionally just to joke around about the elitist mentality that will haunt any and all RDM updates.

And you're flat out lieing to yourself if you think there is such a thing as "Job Balance" in this game. Favorites of Jobs shift with pretty much every major change.

Ex: Samurai.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I have this too, :P

:( No fair!

Hunted that so long, saw countless Dark Rings though less than great but hey, ~30,000 and never even saw a hairpin.

[Aurara]

People would get brought, melee, be terrible at it then get kicked. I'm getting tired of trying to be coopertive, so I'm just gonna end my argument here. If you want spellblade where you can instacast spells from your weapon go right on ahead.

[Hyrist]

Because swords are feature of RDM, and have always been. This is like saying "war's af1 weapon is an axe, WAR should ONLY use axes!" It doesn't hold water because WAR w/axes is terrible.

Let's take a look... at Red Mage and Warior.
Warrior:

Bravura (Relic) (G.Axe)
Ragnarok (Relic) (G.Sword)
Conqueror (Mythic) (G. axe)
Ukonvasara (Empyrean) (G. Axe)
Farsha (Empyrean)



So... you have 1 Axe in your list of possible end-goals to get items wise, if someone wanted to. And Look at that, 3 Great Axes.

Red Mage?

Excalibur (Sword)
Mandau (Dagger)
Murgleis (Sword)
Almace (Sword)

Do you see the problem here?


For a job you profess to be a mage class only. Our Trophies, our highest end goals for weapons are all melee weapons. However, to go for these weapons lands me a boat load of harassment, because of the intent to use them.

Ignoring everything else , that alone is an unacceptable problem. I should not feel disuaded to work on an weapon of that calibur because the public opinion of my intent to use such a weapon is low, especially when I have no alternatives available to my job. No matter what side of the camp you are on, that is inherantly flawed. If SE is going to advertise melee end-goals for Red Mage, then they need to back up its front line performance better, period.

[Duelle]

People would get brought, melee, be terrible at it then get kicked. I'm getting tired of trying to be coopertive, so I'm just gonna end my argument here. If you want spellblade where you can instacast spells from your weapon go right on ahead.I guess I'll close with you with this then:

It's not so much about the ability. It's about what it does and how it affects the group. That's what I was getting at with that post. If you want utility tied to the front line action, thats all and good, but it won't matter much in the numbers game if the other pieces of the puzzle aren't there. It never has and never will. Not to mention I'd find that idea much more bearable than buff cycling.

[Aurara]

I guess we both play RDM differently, I appreciate you not being a complete dick and claim to have "won" the conversation/debate like some people do.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Every mage job has a melee weapon for relic/mythic/emp bar Nirvana which is actually useful even if you don't melee, see lolclaustrum.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

What's with the tag for this thread: troll tagging 101?

[Aurara]

Beats me, I didn't do it, lol

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Probably the amount of times "troll" has been said in this thread. :p

[Hyrist]

I guess I'll close with you with this then:

It's not so much about the ability. It's about what it does and how it affects the group. That's what I was getting at with that post. If you want utility tied to the front line action, thats all and good, but it won't matter much in the numbers game if the other pieces of the puzzle aren't there. It never has and never will. Not to mention I'd find that idea much more bearable than buff cycling.

The problem is, Dulle, you're talking about a complete job Rework, and honestly, Red Mage does not need a "Delete, Reinsert" type of working with the job.

The pieces to preform are there. People who down the job's performance are exadurating the gap, even though it is large, and difficult to close.

But even if that gap was closed, you'd have the problem of it not being enough. For someone of the mentality we're being displayed. Simply having Refresh and Haste in our spell list automatically makes us duty-bound to forsake all other aspects of our class, simply to cycle those two spells endlessly. Oh, and throw out an inefficent cure sevral times in a row when needed.

Kind of funny, cause by the time 99 comes around, every single mage or melee job that subs Red Mage will be able to spread haste around. However it will stll be Red Mage's 'duty' to do so. SE would do well to just buck up and give RDM hastega and make it party only.

[Razushu]

Lucky. I want that thing so bad, along with the dumb refresh hairpin.




Possibly, I would like to know the Dev's plans for RDM (Well all jobs really), so I know whether to continue to level it to 99, or stop. Hopefully the Job Road-Map will show it.

Same here waiting "patiently" for it

[Aurara]

Same here waiting "patiently" for it

friend has 30 hours total time farmed trying to get it D:

[Razushu]

friend has 30 hours total time farmed trying to get it D:

That is awful I once spent a weekend in Aydeewa Subterrane farming Fenrir's crown I lost the will to live... almost

[Hyrist]

Aurura assumes the worst out of players, which is fine. It all boils down the the individual players, after all.

To cross quote:


In terms of FFXI this translates into "It is certainly possible to judge jobs based on their options, but it takes a player who is competent enough to put this into practice."

This has led to people moving on from saying "X is better than Y" towards "Player's X is better than Player's X". In the Super Street Fighter 4 community you will hear people saying "Daigo's Ryu", "JWong's Rufus", "Air's Ryu" or "Mike Ross' Honda". In Marvel VS Capcom 3; "Marn's Team". In Brawl "Ken's Marth". It's a simple show of respect to the skill of the players before the options in the characters.

To me, Red Mage's aren't a front line job.

To me, Hyrist's Red Mage is a front liner.

To me, Blue Mage's aren't the best soloers.

To me, Draylo's Blue Mage makes the some of the best soloing efforts ever recorded.



No matter what update comes about, it will be up to the individual Red Mages to make the best or worst of it. Again, you woulden't catch me dead Meleeing in Mage gear so long as my Macros are working properly, but the reverse is also the same.

But the first step would be making an utility that would be useful in many situations. Deducting an enemy's TP gain is not broken. Truth of the matter is, the game has far too few methods to handle TP attacks, which is why the TP argument is so prominant among melees. Giving Red Mage a front line method to address it would solve a lot of problems across the board.

But it would still be up to the Red Mage to preform well in the front lines. That can be regarded both with playstyle changes, and with further updates.

[ManaKing]

I guess we both play RDM differently, I appreciate you not being a complete dick and claim to have "won" the conversation/debate like some people do.

LOL no one wins this debate. This debate exists so that people can share ideas. If your purpose was to brainstorm and share ideas, then that is as close to winning as you can get.

If you came here to tell people what they already know, then you are redundant at best and wasting your time at worst. I don't care if you want to try to waste my time on this forum, but I would appreciate it if you wouldn't do it in the brainstorming and theorycraft thread because it is rude to tell people what they should think.

[Hyrist]

Not to metion speaking in absolutist terms.

Someone tells me 'can't', 'never', etc. It translates to me as "I won't try."

There are people who do push the envelope, and have convinced their peers as to the benefits, and they know the risks and know how to weigh them better than those who simply theorycraft or parrot that it's 'bad'.

Of course there's horrible RDMs in the front line meleeing in mage gear. They make my eyes roll too. However, you canot use that as the example for every Red Mage who actually puts the effort into preforming well, nor can you fault those who are making a genuine effort for continuing to persue and request update for, an aspect of the job that is, to this day, still being advertised as the iconic RDM of olde.

Mose of those who are posting in the thread, have persued this at the very least on the hobby level and have all felt the shortcommings. We've also seen the shining aspects of it. This conversation has gone on back or forth a good 8 years and it has influenced some updates for the job. A lot of the arguments being said here, they've been heard, ad nasuem, before the offical boards even came up. So hitting frayed nerves should not be unexpected.

You may not like the solutions that were come up with, or the ideas that are coming about, but we're most certainly not doing it with closed eyes. However, given the furstrations of almost a decade worth of the job becoming a shadow of what it, in many Red Mage's opinions, should be, some of us are willing to see the job get broken first in order to get fixed properly.

[Aurara]

LOL no one wins this debate. This debate exists so that people can share ideas. If your purpose was to brainstorm and share ideas, then that is as close to winning as you can get.

If you came here to tell people what they already know, then you are redundant at best and wasting your time at worst. I don't care if you want to try to waste my time on this forum, but I would appreciate it if you wouldn't do it in the brainstorming and theorycraft thread because it is rude to tell people what they should think.

It appears you missed my point.
Edit: I never told anyone how to think, i just said it wasnt efficient, we have different play styles and opinions about rdm, let it go already.

[Hyrist]

That said Aurara, I'd encourage you to try to push your limits in the Melee department on RDM. Even if you find it inefficient, it's an aspect of the job that provides a challenge unique in to itself.

I woulden't go so far to say start Meleeing Voidwatch, of course. But gather the bits of gear, start working on the Magian Swords. (Badelair path if you're leary of trying to get people to help you with Empy drops, then probably OA 2-4 Khanda for offhand.)

Even as a hobby, you might find it as a worthile venture that could change your opinions on the job a bit.

[Aurara]

I have a melee build for rdm, i'm working on STR sword for blu, I'm also working on almace. Making a melee set on rdm would be really easy:
Almace/OAT or STR+9
Zelus/PCC/Brutal/Suppa
Goliard/Dusk/Rajas/Accring
Atheling/Goading/ASA3/Dusk+1

[Hyrist]

I have a melee build for rdm, i'm working on STR sword for blu, I'm also working on almace. Making a melee set on rdm would be really easy:
Almace/OAT or STR+9
Zelus/PCC/Brutal/Suppa
Goliard/Dusk/Rajas/Accring
Atheling/Goading/ASA3/Dusk+1

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/11958/calmecac-trousers (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/11958/calmecac-trousers)

[Aurara]

Seeing as i have the 3% ASA legs already, i doubt i'll spend the $ on those because i never use melee rdm ever.

[Hyrist]

It has a large job list that justifies the purchase if you have other jobs that can use it.

Consiter Dex 9 as well for CDC, as it's a full dex mod. I'd go OA 2-4 just for the superior TP building but that's just more a taste thing, you probably get better results on your BLU using the OAT.

I'm still playing between Raja's/ACC and Lava's-Kusha's.

It's all a matter of tastes though. I prefer to open for others when I'm front-lining on RDM. And the faster TP building in trade for a bit of damage seems to result in higher overall group output, and more burst oppertuinity for myself and other mages.

[Aurara]

I would use these legs for CDC on rdm http://www.ffxiah.com/item/16381/tumbler-trunks
Rajas/Dex ring will always be better than lavas/kushas since you'll be eating sushi(you'll have to if you want to hit anything). I'm not suggesting it on high tier NMs, this is mainly for messing around, lol.

[Hyrist]

Actually I'm not running into nearly as much accuracy issues as you might think. I can get by on Pizza on most things. Once I'm full on Melee Atmas, I'll be able to meat build easy and still keep an 85% hit rate. I buy Sushi when I know I'm hitting something evasive, or don't want to spend the food on a quick event, in which case I alternate bettween Bream and Sole.

CDC WS, I agree, Raja's + Dex Ring, I beleive Jupiter's is decent, if you can get the Attack +6 from the Head Seal's Quest (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/An_Acrididaen_Anodyne), as it fits nicely.

Lava/Kushra's are for Tping. +6 Acc each and no stat downs. It's better ACC than a Raja'/Acc ring set up for taking a bite in STR. I've still not decided which I like better. There's really no 'standard' camp to parse anymore.

As far as Tumbler Trunks, yeah, I've had my eye on it for a while. I'll probably pick it up tonight if it's on AH.

As a note, I tend not to melee NMs. I'll flirt at it to get a general performance comparison, but as I quit for a while, my build fell behind, and I've barely any Atmas to speak of. Once I've got all that I'll test the waters more substantially.

[ManaKing]

It appears you missed my point.
Edit: I never told anyone how to think, i just said it wasnt efficient, we have different play styles and opinions about rdm, let it go already.

No you don't get the point. You are still worried about being right and using what is currently the state of the game as proof for why you are right.

We already know that RDM melee is inefficient and that you and several other people in this thread have given us the courtesy of allowing us to melee in situations that aren't actually important. You are redundant. We've dealt with adversity our entire career as a RDM and we would appreciate it if you would contribute something useful to furthering RDM as an attractive job past lvl 75 OR go make your own thread called "Why RDM melee is a bad idea and how RDM should actually play their job". At least if you did the later you would be posting in the right thread and all your comments thus far would actually be pertinent.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I don't get why people make out a RDM's skill is so bad but not a DNC's when at 90 a DNC has a massive 6 skill levels higher than us on dagger.

Will we hit NM's most likely not without accuracy, although in Abyssea you can, but that's true of any job even gimped ones, but if we're messing around you don't need crazy accuracy to hit.


Actually I'm not running into nearly as much accuracy issues as you might think. I can get by on Pizza on most things. Once I'm full on Melee Atmas, I'll be able to meat build easy and still keep an 85% hit rate. I buy Sushi when I know I'm hitting something evasive, or don't want to spend the food on a quick event, in which case I alternate bettween Bream and Sole.

CDC WS, I agree, Raja's + Dex Ring, I beleive Jupiter's is decent, if you can get the Attack +6 from the Head Seal's Quest (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/An_Acrididaen_Anodyne), as it fits nicely.

Lava/Kushra's are for Tping. +6 Acc each and no stat downs. It's better ACC than a Raja'/Acc ring set up for taking a bite in STR. I've still not decided which I like better. There's really no 'standard' camp to parse anymore.

As far as Tumbler Trunks, yeah, I've had my eye on it for a while. I'll probably pick it up tonight if it's on AH.

As a note, I tend not to melee NMs. I'll flirt at it to get a general performance comparison, but as I quit for a while, my build fell behind, and I've barely any Atmas to speak of. Once I've got all that I'll test the waters more substantially.

I've only ever beat one NM in Abyssea, that said I've only fought one and that was when I wanted a blood warp out of Konschtat after giving up on the refresh head, and that was Raskovnic, but he's kind of weak anyway.

[Hyrist]

In Dancer's defence, they do get +20 more accuracy than us with Acc Bonus III (Factoring in Composure.)

That closes to 10 if we sub dancer ourselves, however.

[Aurara]

No you don't get the point. You are still worried about being right and using what is currently the state of the game as proof for why you are right.

We already know that RDM melee is inefficient and that you and several other people in this thread have given us the courtesy of allowing us to melee in situations that aren't actually important. You are redundant. We've dealt with adversity our entire career as a RDM and we would appreciate it if you would contribute something useful to furthering RDM as an attractive job past lvl 75 OR go make your own thread called "Why RDM melee is a bad idea and how RDM should actually play their job". At least if you did the later you would be posting in the right thread and all your comments thus far would actually be pertinent.

You wont let it go will you? Just drop it dude, I did, lol.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

In Dancer's defence, they do get +20 more accuracy than us with Acc Bonus III (Factoring in Composure.)

That closes to 10 if we sub dancer ourselves, however.

This is true.

[ManaKing]

You wont let it go will you? Just drop it dude, I did, lol.

It's like you still are here and aren't suggesting anything good, so no, I won't just drop it.

[Hyrist]

Comparing Acc Trait vs Composure and skill differences, it's roughly a 12 accuracy difference between BLU and RDM, which, honestly, is slight, but signifigant enough for us to second-guess meat builds outside of Abyssea. It will be interesting how Gain-Dex will influence this, however, as if we can cap it off at +20, which our enhancing skill growth+ Gear seems to push us into, we might be able to push meat builds after that point. We'll have to see how the scaling effects us verse mobs. (Going to enjoy the jump in Evis/CDC number though.)

But we'd have to start comparing base Dex at that point though, which I've lost track as to the average spell build of a BLU and what dex bonuses they get. (We also are going to have to compare it's use to Gain STR as well. I wonder which Boost WHM will end up using...)

[Aurara]

Comparing Acc Trait vs Composure and skill differences, it's roughly a 12 accuracy difference between BLU and RDM, which, honestly, is slight, but signifigant enough for us to second-guess meat builds outside of Abyssea. It will be interesting how Gain-Dex will influence this, however, as if we can cap it off at +20, which our enhancing skill growth+ Gear seems to push us into, we might be able to push meat builds after that point. We'll have to see how the scaling effects us verse mobs. (Going to enjoy the jump in Evis/CDC number though.)

But we'd have to start comparing base Dex at that point though, which I've lost track as to the average spell build of a BLU and what dex bonuses they get. (We also are going to have to compare it's use to Gain STR as well. I wonder which Boost WHM will end up using...)

Curious what your WS set for evis looks like, since thats what i use on RDM when i do melee.

[Duelle]

The problem is, Duelle, you're talking about a complete job rework, and honestly, Red Mage does not need a "Delete, Reinsert" type of working with the job.That's more a matter of opinion. Really depends on how much of a problem you have with the way RDM is currently designed. As anyone could probably guess, I've taken issue with the class' design on a fundamental level.

But even if that gap was closed, you'd have the problem of it not being enough. For someone of the mentality we're being displayed. Simply having Refresh and Haste in our spell list automatically makes us duty-bound to forsake all other aspects of our class, simply to cycle those two spells endlessly. Oh, and throw out an inefficent cure sevral times in a row when needed.As I've said in the past, you'd need to devalue Refresh and Haste and then toss in the melee changes. Those two spells need to be removed from the equation when a RDM is front-lining. Those and cures overshadow a lot of the other parts of our class.

Kind of funny, cause by the time 99 comes around, every single mage or melee job that subs Red Mage will be able to spread haste around. However it will still be Red Mage's 'duty' to do so. SE would do well to just buck up and give RDM hastega and make it party only.I've never been one to just put up with something that doesn't belong and go with it. Support got shoved down our throat because we were/are not up to par in the other departments. This is further aggravated by the fact you have individuals who feel we're more useful in the backlines healing and buffbotting and are justified because of the above sentence.

[Supersun]

you'd need to devalue Refresh and Haste and then toss in the melee changes.
I've never been one to just put up with something that doesn't belong and go with it

Refresh and Haste on Rdm will naturally devalue themselves just from the fact of the sheer number of jobs that will likely have it accessible at 99 from /rdm.

What needs to be done is adding viable ways to make our hasting faster and not as frequent. They've already helped tremendously with the not as frequent part with AF3+2, but the issue still stands that every time the red clock disappears we have to eat 4-5 secs per cast per person, and if spending 1-2 secs to activate a JA is too much time for a DD with high haste values then 4-5 secs per person is far too much.

Even if haste was instant cast you are still stuck in a 2 sec animation delay per haste. Really, as much as Rdm is a single target mage unless they get creative nothing is going to get close to the ability to AoE our single target support spells. Now it doesn't necessarily have to be hastega, but if melee is to have any chance of taking off we can't waste 10+ secs just to distribute 1 spell when other jobs pass all their spells in half the time.

That or remove that stupid 1-2 sec delay after every non melee action. Do that and let fast cast take care of the rest.

(On that note, reading some of the responses to Aurara's "trolling" in the BG thread has made my day)

[Duelle]

Refresh and Haste on Rdm will naturally devalue themselves just from the fact of the sheer number of jobs that will likely have it accessible at 99 from /rdm.This is assuming the playerbase adjusts accordingly once the cap is raised to 99. Which, in all honesty, has yet to be determined.

Either way, it also doesn't help the people who are still leveling (yeah, I know, FoV, raised exp gains and abyssea quick levelling~), since RDM is then not growing into their front line option because between 41 and 96 they'll still be refresh, haste and cure bots. Front line play won't stand a chance unless people start seeing more RDMs meleeing their way to level cap rather than taking support roles during the leveling process.

[Supersun]

Moot point since from 30+ 6 man exp parties don't really exist anymore.

It's rather hard to force someone to be a refresh, haste, and cure bot in an 18 man alliance against easy preys where you will spend more time looking for the correct mob to complete your page then actually fighting.

If a Rdm isn't meleeing in one of those parties it's more by choice then being forced not to.

[Duelle]

Moot point since from 30+ 6 man exp parties don't really exist anymore.

It's rather hard to force someone to be a refresh, haste, and cure bot in an 18 man alliance against easy preys where you will spend more time looking for the correct mob to complete your page then actually fighting.

If a Rdm isn't meleeing in one of those parties it's more by choice then being forced not to.While still doing nothing to kill that perpetuated class image of heals, refresh and haste. You build from the ground up, not near or at the level cap.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

While still doing nothing to kill that perpetuated class image of heals, refresh and haste. You build from the ground up, not near or at the level cap.

It's not great, but the image exists because so many people play it like that, or leveled it to use it like that.

It's so late in the game that this image will probably exist for the rest of the games lifespan, that's not to say they couldn't help RDM melee as I still think they should, even if it's only for a small group of people.

[cidbahamut]

I fear if you guys get the changes you want, that I will end up no longer enjoying my favorite job.

Red Mage needs at most some tweaking, not a complete overhaul/redesign. Please don't destroy the job I've known and loved since I first logged in.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I fear if you guys get the changes you want, that I will end up no longer enjoying my favorite job.

Red Mage needs at most some tweaking, not a complete overhaul/redesign. Please don't destroy the job I've known and loved since I first logged in.

Asking for what RDM is supposed to be IS NOT changing the job. You want a cure bot or enhancer level WHM.

[cidbahamut]

How is asking for changes not changing the job? Especially when they're on the scale some of you folks are suggesting.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

How is asking for changes not changing the job? Especially when they're on the scale some of you folks are suggesting.

I'm asking for melee to be improved to at least a decent level, will that allow us to Melee in parties? probably not, but melee is part of RDM.

If you're cool with enhancing and curing go on ahead, I'm not stopping you, nor am I asking SE to remove those aspects, only asking to make melee decent like a RDM's White Magic and Black Magic is.

Asking for small changes does NOT instantly change what a job is, almost every other job has been getting the changes in some way or another with no impact on the jobs primary duties.

[Hyrist]

Every Red Mage has an individual image of where the job "should" go, or "should be", Cid. Don't let the extremity of the ideas get you panicked.

What I want, personally, is more support for the iconic Red Mage throughout. This means giving Red Mage a debuff method to regard TP attacks - the only section now we cannot directly impact, and a utility that allows us to take the front lines.

No offense to Dulle, but he does not represent the majority. What he's creating is more akin to Sorcerer or Mystic Knight than Red Mage.

Go back and play 1 and 5. The 'Fundamental design' of Red Mage DOES, in fact, favor casting. However, unlike in MMO settings, Red Mage needed nothing more than an appropriate weapon to deal sizable damage. in MMO's we're going to need a full set of gears and support abilities to match. Right now, that is lacking.

To get into the thick of things with the more, truly for the lack of the better term, elitist DD bunch, there is going to have to be some utility tied directly to Red Mage's front lining that benefits THEM. Cause any sort of buff that just directly benefits our personal performance is going to simply be cried about for a nerf and how "Red Mage is too imbalanced, it can do everything!"

As far as depreciating Haste and Refresh. Refresh IS depreciated. All this is done for many mages is allow them to be irresponsible with their MP pools outside of Abyssea. Haste will never depreciate due to how powerful of a status it is. Whether or not the role of the 'haster' depreciates thanks to it becoming available via two subjobs at 99, will just seed another problem: There will be no purpose for a Red Mage because we can't heal/support as well as a WHM/RDM.

If we Receive Cure V in that time without a substantial change and streamlining, we're back to competing directly with WHM for the healer spot, which I find is unacceptable, and it was a major mistake for SE to allow the role of the Red Mage to be pocketed as a solo healer for as long as it did.

If the aims are to depreciate the value of Haste and Refresh, the only solution for a Red Mage in this situation is to truncate the 'cycle' mentality directly, namely, Hastega. Given to White or Red this will destroy the concept of a cycle-mage, which, more than anything, is the primary issue on Red Mages in the front line.

After that, you could provide some recognizable front line utility and the arguments against letting a Red Mage who's geared to the front lines will fall short. The only untouched utility as it stands now, however, that we do not have in some form is monster TP gain/TP attacks, and it just happens to address the "yur fedin tpz to da mobz1" argument.

[Duelle]

No offense to Duelle, but he does not represent the majority. What he's creating is more akin to Sorcerer or Mystic Knight than Red Mage.None taken, though Mystic Knight had no access to cures. Mystic Knight has no access to any sort of buff spells. Much like Enspells, however, I was borrowing an idea and molding it to make it relevant to Red Mage melee. We've already gone down part of that road with enspells, I'm just wanting the class to go the rest of the way there, if only to help kill the "lol rdm izn't dd" comments.

Not to mention, the alternative is leave the class as is with black magic, white magic and nothing native to the class to help push it into melee range. Honestly, Enspells are nice, but they're not enough.

[Supersun]

You just have to realize that the Dev team can't spend an infinite amount of time working on just one class.

Sure an "overhaul" would be nice, but realistically isn't going to happen.

Just finding an idea that will fix the problem isn't enough. The best ideas are short, simple, and to the point.

[Duelle]

You just have to realize that the Dev team can't spend an infinite amount of time working on just one class.

Sure an "overhaul" would be nice, but realistically isn't going to happen.The main issue is finding something that'll make the melee enthusiasts happy, will make the backline crowd happy, and will not provoke the outsiders. Under RDM's current design, there are too many "buts" attached to it when we talk about changes to the class. Either because of our perceived utility, the fact we had a handful of people solo former endgame bosses, our lacking melee, or the irrational fear that RDM would replace everyone else, to name a few.

As I may have said earlier in one of the threads here, I don't care what approach is taken as long as something is done. Won't stop me from having my own outlook on what the class should and should not have, but if they go with your or Hyrist's or Seriha's approach over mine, I won't be against it because we're still reaching the goal of the thread.

[Hyrist]

Not to mention, the alternative is leave the class as is with black magic, white magic and nothing native to the class to help push it into melee range. Honestly, Enspells are nice, but they're not enough.

Especially not with Haste Samba destroying any chance we would have for catching up, unless our enspells came with innate attack speed increase.

But that said, I would like not to go beyond the bounds of the alterations already done to the class's primary structure, as it's not all that much different from our FF1 incarnation. (We had both "Haste" and "Focus" as melee enhancers then.)

I also agree with the concept that we are not a Damage Dealer. We are a support job. But, in that respect, so is Corsair, and Corsair's still deal damage. So do Dancers. We should be on about that level.

As far as encouraging melee throughout the levels. Grant RDM native EX weaponskills. Pair that up with some more low-hanging melee gear for RDM in the level span of 75-90 for people to build up upon, and we should be ok there.

The real concern is late game performance, where the issues are breaking the playerbase out of the cycle mentality and having a valuable front line utility.

Which is why I keep going back to the TP issue. Not because of outside arguments that enemies TP moves are two powerful to allow a low-damage assistance in the party, but because TP attacks remain the last avenue for enfeebling. Attaching it to our melee just seems to fit as it addresses a key anti-melee issue.

[ManaKing]

I just want to be effective in my AF3 with Almace because they look amazing and every other job is able to do so. Unfortunately, to make RDM effective while doing this would require RDM to be able to convert more than just HP to MP.

(I personally prefer the Murgleis to the Almace for the image of RDM. But with that setup, presently, you aren't going to be able to do anything but cast. Your sword is only a fancy sword-shaped wand.)

I still would most prefer to push the spell sword image of RDM, because it is the one that is most vivid in my mind and it is what I was sold on. The only 2 things I think we need to worry about are HasteGa and our Enspell damage.

I agree with Hyrist, I think our solution for our spells, that would keep us up with the rest of the jobs in the game, would be to add HasteGa for RDMs. Garuda already gets Hastega, COR can already lower weapon delay for everyone in the party, BRD have their marches. There is nothing imbalanced about RDM getting something that 3 other jobs have access to.

Make it so you can cast it on an entire party at a time. If you cast hastega on a person in your party, everyone in range gets haste. If you cast it on someone in another party, everyone in range of that person gets haste. RDM spends less time buffing everyone. They have more time to spend on however they think they should play their job.


We need new Enspell 3s at 75+ (For the purpose of clarity I'll just refer to it as Enspell X)

The functions I am looking for are:



Greater Enspell Damage that can be modified by gear
Less or No TP Feed for your man hand
Elemental Resistance Lowered matches the element of the Enspell and can be increased by gear
While under Enspells, we get Weapon Haste = The recast reduction of our Fast Cast
While under Composure, Magic Accuracy is added to our Regular Accuracy



The purpose of these changes are so that RDM can wear mage gear, which is what our AF1-3 is, and still be able to melee. RDM converts magical strength into melee prowess. Sword and Sorcery.

Damage
The biggest problem Enspells currently have, is that they don't give us enough of a reason to be meleeing. Their damage is insignificant. Enspell X would apply Enspell damage with every hit we do with our main hand. We get screwed out of our Joyeus and our 2-4 Khanda +2 unless we use Enspell 1s, no to mention a bunch of other gear and abilities. Enspell 2s aren't worth the price we pay for them after 70+.

Enspell X would have the same base as the other Enspells, but would be modified by INT. The options I see for this are either you get 1 base damage for every point of additional INT you get from your gear and buffs. Or you get a scale where every 4 points of INT = 1 point of base. Tarutaru has the highest Enspell damage naturally, Elvaan has the worst.

Enspell X's damage would also be subject to Magic Attack bonus. This includes RDM's natural job trait, magic attack bonus from gear, and magic attack bonus from buffs like COR's Wizard's Roll or Atmas such as Ultimate or Hell's Guardian. It would also apply to corresponding Elemental Attack bonuses from sources such as Atma of the Beyond if you were using Enblizzard X.

Enspell X will calculate it's base damage based off of your enhancing skill at the time of cast. It will calculate the bonuses from INT and MAB on hit. Enspell X will not tick up like current Enspell 2s, Enspell Xs damage will be superior for a well geared RDM. Enspell X will not allow users to cast it in mage gear and then switch to full DD gear, the point of this change is to get RDMs meleeing in their AF so that everyone knows what we are.


TP Feed
While under the effect of Enspell X (main hand only) you would not give the mob TP. A RDM that only uses their main hand to attack with would never give the mob TP. If you choose to dual wield, both DNC and NIN have subtle blow for your offhand. You can choose to dual wield and gain additional on hit effects and better stats from a 2nd weapon, but your offhand will be giving the mob TP. The argument of RDMs feed TP is now completely out the window.


Elemental Resistance Lowered
Elemental Resistance Lowered by Enspell X would correspond to the element of the enspell. If you cast Enfire X, you will be dealing fire damage on hit and you will lowering the mobs ability to negate that damage by lowering their fire resistance. Enspell X will exploit enemies' elemental weakness and open them up to full elemental damage for not just the RDM's spells, but also to the entire party's spells as well.

The amount of elemental resistance can start at 10 and can be further increased by MND. I see the same options for MND as I do for INT. Either it's off bonus' from gear and buffs, or it is off total MND. In the case of the later, Elvaan have the best elemental resistance lowering and mithra/tarutaru have the worst. MND, like INT would be calculated on hit and would override your previous effect.


While under Enspell X, we get Weapon Haste = The recast reduction of our Fast Cast
Our Fast Cast now counts double. You still get the full affect of reducing casting time. Your Recast still get's lowered by 1/2 of the value of your cast time reduction. BUT what you get is attack speed reduction equal to your recast value. This value counts against your equipment haste cap, furthering the idea that you can melee in your AF.


While under Composure, Magic Accuracy is added to our Regular Accuracy
Same idea as above, we take what we can actually gear for, and make it work to our advantage. Murgleis will make it so you will not miss either spells or melee. I would also change it so that composure gives +10 Magic Accuracy instead of regular Accuracy. ALSO our Tier 1 Merits wouldn't be so bad anymore. Every merit would be +3 accuracy with the corresponding Enspell X. You could get +15 accuracy with 2 different Enspell Xs or distribute them how you like.


Ending Statement
RDM has a B in both of their main weapons. We would have the accuracy to hit and we would provide DD that does not feed TP. Our reasons for being at the front line would be to debuff elemental resistances for our party and deal significantly more efficient DPS than if we were on the backline. We would have the time to front line with the addition of HasteGa. We would be able to reach our equipment haste cap easier and could equip ourselves in Mage gear to further enhance our casting side. We would have the tools inside of Aby and outside of Aby to be useful in a party and be able to contribute damage. Our Tier 1 merits would be significantly more attractive.

Our Job identity would be significantly more defined, we would get to be able to wear our AF more prominently, and a lot of our issues would be resolved.

[Duelle]

I also agree with the concept that we are not a Damage Dealer. We are a support job. But, in that respect, so is Corsair, and Corsair's still deal damage. So do Dancers. We should be on about that level.Except COR is for the most part played as COR/WHM using quickdraw and little else. That's another disservice performed by the players on that job while SE does little on a baseline level to counter it.

Dancers are a different bag and deal more damage more frequently than a red mage could ever hope to. So both examples are bad ones at that.

As far as encouraging melee throughout the levels. Grant RDM native EX weaponskills. Pair that up with some more low-hanging melee gear for RDM in the level span of 75-90 for people to build up upon, and we should be ok there.I can agree with this. Of course, I'd also put RDM on some of the decent pieces between 40-75.

The real concern is late game performance, where the issues are breaking the playerbase out of the cycle mentality and having a valuable front line utility.The cycle mentality should ideally not come into play at all.

Not because of outside arguments that enemies TP moves are two powerful to allow a low-damage assistance in the party, but because TP attacks remain the last avenue for enfeebling. Attaching it to our melee just seems to fit as it addresses a key anti-melee issue.I agree, but then go back to the fact that it alone will not allow us to step up to the front.

[Neisan_Quetz]

What the heck is weapon haste? do you mean gear haste? even if Rdm got capped gear haste without haste gear you still wouldn't melee in mage gear. You'd melee in melee gear. Subtle Blow effect I can see happening, attacks giving no TP at all - no, that defeats the TP system and completely removes danger from a lot of monsters (not that the AGI update didn't soften several up that don't have regain anyway inside Aby if you kept enough melee of them, roughly the same for outside aby on stronger mobs afaik).

Enspells being modified by gear on cast is the best way to go about it imo.

I have no issue wearing rainbow pimp gear to increase my melee damage, aesthetics should never enter a discussion on efficiency.

Oh, increasing composure's accuracy given/ having enspells having an effect similar to enhancing sword or a JT giving them similar effect is better than reworking Composure in my opinion. Also JA haste on it.

The last two sound like coding nightmares anyway.

[Hyrist]

I just want to be effective in my AF3 with Almace because they look amazing and every other job is able to do so.

Absolutely not. You gear for what you do. If that means having a TP set, and a WS set and having to be more critical as to which mage sets to bring to the table, so be it.

Gear haste cap is 25%, and we can reach that with gear currently available to us.

If you're talking Job Ability haste (Weapon Delay reduction similar to what players get from Haste Samba and Hasso) it makes no sense, though I suppose there is room for it there. (Bard Haste + Spell + Enspell haste would could blow magical haste cap, JA haste would avoid that.) Tough, honestly, I'm with Neisan in just tacking it onto Composure.

[Doombringer]

yah i agree, expecting the af to be good melee gear is just asking way to much. just give us access to actual melee gear and i'll go get it.

[Supersun]

I just want to be effective in my AF3 with Almace because they look amazing and every other job is able to do so.
Either the Dev team has the nightmare of trying to figure out a way that our already implemented AF3+2 can become THE melee set

or...

You can .dat swap




Ascetics are nice and all, but SE will have a big enough of a chore just getting Rdm melee to be successful. They don't need the added limitations of our AF3+2 being the best set as a requirement.

On that note, if they decide to throw in a Rdm melee set I wouldn't mind that purple armor that those shade people wear from the WotG missions. :D

[Hyrist]

On that note, if they decide to throw in a Rdm melee set I wouldn't mind that purple armor that those shade people wear from the WotG missions.

I second this.

[Seriha]

Nuuu, I dun wanna be purple! (OR IS IT BLUE?!)

[ManaKing]

What the heck is weapon haste?

Increasing the attack speed of your weapon, same thing you get from BRD Marches.




The last two sound like coding nightmares anyway.

Not my job to worry about coding and not an excuse that is going to hold up if SE wants FFXI to keep making them money.

FFXIV was a failure. If they want my business they will make me and their successful game, which i still play, seriously.


Either the Dev team has the nightmare of trying to figure out a way that our already implemented AF3+2 can become THE melee set

or...

You can .dat swap


Same as above. I'm not saying they should do whatever I want, I'm just saying that if it is too much effort to make RDM as good as any other job in the game, then it is too much effort for me to play their game and pay the monthly for it. That being said, I have plenty of patience for this game, but I will have none if RDM isn't improved by the time the level cap is 99.



On that note, if they decide to throw in a Rdm melee set I wouldn't mind that purple armor that those shade people wear from the WotG missions. :D

Third. Purple is my favorite color.


yah i agree, expecting the af to be good melee gear is just asking way to much. just give us access to actual melee gear and i'll go get it.

Umm that is fine if they are going to do it that way, but that is not the way it is going, nor has it been for awhile.

They keep giving us mage gear and AF that is mage gear. If they want us in mage gear then we need RDM to change to function in mage gear. I still want to melee. I would be ok with them making us efficient to melee and cast in mage gear. It's not what I want, but at least we would have a pool of equips to choose from instead of the 1 or 2 pieces per slot that may or may not be anywhere close to as good as what other jobs get.

I personally want to still be in scale mail, but that catagory is almost non-existent. I'm going to put together an Augmented set of Blood Scale Mail in the next month or 2. But other than that, I don't see any real choices.


Absolutely not. You gear for what you do. If that means having a TP set, and a WS set and having to be more critical as to which mage sets to bring to the table, so be it.

Gear haste cap is 25%, and we can reach that with gear currently available to us.

If you're talking Job Ability haste (Weapon Delay reduction similar to what players get from Haste Samba and Hasso) it makes no sense, though I suppose there is room for it there. (Bard Haste + Spell + Enspell haste would could blow magical haste cap, JA haste would avoid that.) Tough, honestly, I'm with Neisan in just tacking it onto Composure.

Oh yeah, there would still be better gear to get. But the idea is to get to equipment haste easily so you can focus on other kinds of gear.

I don't really care how we get more haste, but we need it. Either that or we need something else to increase the melee aspect of RDM.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That's confusion on haste terms then, I'd prefer a form of haste that doesn't overlap with available sources bar JA since only 3 jobs get JA haste as it is, magic would make the change redundant/useless if you have a brd in party.

If different colour wyverns are a problem then completely changing composure to those specs can be a nightmare, it's not making an excuse, they've already stated there are some changes which are just not worth the time/manpower to attempt to implement. They already had an issue with placing NPCs in Port Windurst for teleporting to Abyssea zones just because of the amount of information the npcs contained until from feedback people said they don't care about bastion status information.

[Supersun]

I didn't see anything in his list of suggestions regarding composure that would be that difficult to code.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The accuracy converted to magic accuracy change is unnecessary, the adding magic haste is potentially redundant (how do you figure how it would determine magic haste from Fast Cast anyway? by Trait? how much FC gear you're wearing during activation or something? It doesn't sound really necessary to change the JA by that much).

[Seriha]

I guess my take on it was the recast value would become equipment haste. So, an item with 10% FC would be 5% Haste, which make AF head and Relic body comparable, even a little better, to Walahra and Goliard. Though, basing that solely off traits, we'd have 15% native by 90, which might not be so bad since part of our melee woes are juggling ACC/ATK/Haste to make sure we hit as often as possible for as hard as possible. Not sure if we could include Arts from /SCH into this.

Either way, I'd just prefer Composure getting JA Haste added to it, either as a merit or maybe as an additional bonus to our +2 set.

[ManaKing]

Composure's current description:
Increases accuracy and Lengthens recast time. Enhancment effects ganed though white and black magic you cast on yourself lasts longer.

Proposed Change:
Increases magical accuracy, adds accuracy equivalent to magical accuracy and Lengthens recast time. Enhancment effects ganed though white and black magic you cast on yourself lasts longer.

Not that hard.

If you are still having trouble then break it up.

Composure - (Level 50 JA)
Adds accuracy equivalent to magical accuracy and Lengthens recast time. Enhancment effects ganed though white and black magic you cast on yourself lasts longer.

Magical Acc. Bonus - (Level 50 JT)
Improves accuracy of magic spells. (Not included in the description would be that you gain 10 Magical Accuracy. Look at Magic Atk. Bonus, it doesn't provide numbers either.)

Same thing with Enspells

Current descriptions for for Enspell 2s:
Enwater II - Adds Water daage to your initial attacks and reduced the target's resistance against lightning.

Enwater X - Adds water damage to you main hand's attack and lowers the target's resistance against water. Increases Attack Speed.

(The stats on our enspell can be determined on cast if it is too difficult to implement otherwise. Your Enspell damage set would prioritize Fast Cast> INT or MND depending on if you want>Enhancing Skill. Magic Attack bonus could be equipped/unequipped and it would update.)



I guess my take on it was the recast value would become equipment haste. So, an item with 10% FC would be 5% Haste, which make AF head and Relic body comparable, even a little better, to Walahra and Goliard. Though, basing that solely off traits, we'd have 15% native by 90, which might not be so bad since part of our melee woes are juggling ACC/ATK/Haste to make sure we hit as often as possible for as hard as possible. Not sure if we could include Arts from /SCH into this.

Either way, I'd just prefer Composure getting JA Haste added to it, either as a merit or maybe as an additional bonus to our +2 set.

Yup, you got it. I'm not sure how /SCH would work either.

I wouldn't have a problem with getting JA Haste on Composure. But the bottom line is that something needs to be done. The point is look at every other jobs AF3+2 and look at ours. Ours is crap. We don't even get Haste or Fast Cast on it.

We don't need better Enfeebling, more refresh or the ability to poorly buff people better. We need actual gear. When I started seal hunting with a friend of mine, I gave her all or my RDM seals until she had a full set of +1. I had no interest in the set and I still don't because it doesn't do anything but perpetuate the stale tactics of telling the RDM to get in the back, shut up, and buff me. Otherwise we just get kicked.

Compare to BLU +2, or any other +2. It should be really obvious how bad it is.

PS I love the way our AF3 looks, I just want to have a real reason to use it.

[Duelle]

The accuracy converted to magic accuracy change is unnecessaryConsidering it does away with the need for staves while front-lining, it'd be ideal for enfeebling while in melee gear.

On a concept level, it also works well with the melee mage aspect. Don't see why it would be a problem to have something like that, really.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Wait, I think I read it wrong then. I see what your point is.

[Hyrist]

Considering it does away with the need for staves while front-lining, it'd be ideal for enfeebling while in melee gear.

On a concept level, it also works well with the melee mage aspect. Don't see why it would be a problem to have something like that, really.

Because Staves on a Red Mage is borderline Placebo for everything but cure bombing and nuking to begin with.

Anything that is going to resist you AF3 alone, not including the +45 skill we can get if we decide to peace-meal for Skill, they they are likely to be flat out immune, or have a hard capped resistance rate which make staves (and enfeebling skill by proxy) useless.

It really was this way as well leading up to the levels. Those were having high ass resistance rate were over-reaching on IT++ mobs with uncapped enfeebling skill and no gear to back it up, which persisted the idea that RDM needed the staves to land his debuffs reliably. Then a WHM comes along and lands Slow on a Sky god wearing a light staff and MND gear, when RDM had been trying several times over in full acc + HQ Earth staff with a fully merited Slow II.

Nuking is the best excuse for having staves at this point. Increasing our Enfeebeling accuracy? We have that to the point of overkill.

[Duelle]

Because Staves on a Red Mage is borderline Placebo for everything but cure bombing and nuking to begin with.Aside from this, however, Acc => M.Acc is also a step in streamlining the class. Streamlining RDM is not a bad thing, either.

[Hyrist]

Wouldn't mind it as an additional trait we could have on top of some of our other ideas, that's for sure. Though we'll have to balanced what we're doing as far as that goes.

As far as controlling the degree as the Acc -> MAcc, I'd say... 1/10. 400 Root Accuracy = +40 Magical Accuracy is a sizable boost.

[ManaKing]

I'm talking about gearing and meriting for magic accuracy and getting regular accuracy for it, are you guys taking it the other way?

If so discuss.

ALSO

Why does the only job with an A in enfeebling not have SleepGa I or II? The more i think about this, the more it doesn't make sense.

I think if we had HasteGa and SleepGa I and/or II we would be a lot more attractive right now even without melee fixes.

[Supersun]

I'm talking about gearing and meriting for magic accuracy and getting regular accuracy for it, are you guys taking it the other way?

If so discuss.

ALSO

Why does the only job with an A in enfeebling not have SleepGa I or II? The more i think about this, the more it doesn't make sense.

I think if we had HasteGa and SleepGa I and/or II we would be a lot more attractive right now even without melee fixes.

We only have 1 native AoE spell, that's why.

[Hyrist]

Yes, we are taking it backwards.

Because, Mana, we've got ZERO existent gear that has magic accuracy that's important to our melee, period. In Melee, Haste is King, followed by Melee Accuracy and Attack. There is absolutely no point in trying to warp the mechanic to make it ok to melee in mage gear.

Your proposal would make... Limbus drops slightly more worthwhile. Taking it in reverse puts the entirety of melee gear more acceptable to wear in lower levels on the way up, and makes it possible to harness Melee accuracy to cut down on number of sets we need to carry around. (No so much spent on Mag Acc gear and more focus on potency of WS/Spells.)

I am sorry, but there is just no way you can get around gearing properly for melee.

[ManaKing]

I'm just throwing this stuff out there for us to talk about. I want to hear it from everyone perspective that is actually interested. I actually like it just as much the other way around, possibly even more. I just wanted to make sure we are all talking about the same thing.

Gearing properly for Melee only applies to whatever it takes to make your job effective while doing it. I would much rather run around in melee gear than mage gear as well, I'm only looking at the trends over the last couple of years. The purpose for my last large post was to what it would look like to get RDM meleeing with the gear we are provided from aby in the form of the Teal set and our AF3.

I want to be able to function in my AF3, but I can only see it as a step in the wrong direction.


We only have 1 native AoE spell, that's why.

It's still a poor excuse. Not from you, but from the Devs.

[Neisan_Quetz]

We were lucky to get that 1 AoE spell...

[ManaKing]

we were lucky to get Diaga?

[Karbuncle]

Whats Even funnier is they removed Diaga II for RDM's.

[Seriha]

Yeah, I still balk at the "enfeebler" aspect when you consider the lack of -gas or the variety of debuffs that BLU gets, but RDMs don't. Dream Flower was an abso-frickin-lutely awesome addition to BLU, and that wasn't even their first multi-target sleep. However, they can also go and stack a Blind and ACC Down, affect specific stats without a particular sub, and so on, often with some bonus damage on top. Herpderp DD onry BLUs make me sad, but I can't exactly fault them for offense's glaring superiority over defense in this game.

[Hyrist]

With the enemy offense's so easily muted between cures, counters, debuffs, etc. How else could it be though?

Enemy TP moves is about the only thing bosses have going for them, really, and the only way 'defense' could be properly utilized. But with White Mages able to powerhouse recovery, especially in Abyssea, there's almost no point in defensiveness.

Blame the fact that the majority of the jobs now are ridiculous powerhouses offensively though. I'd say as far as DD performance wise, SE needs to put the breaks on any further updates that do anything more than balance them out between each other, and then start working on the rest of the utilities of these jobs while the rest of classes catch up. In the end it'll be the utilities and stylization that should separate the melee classes.

[Seriha]

Without going into a giant hypothetical on the game without Atma or even Utsusemi, I'll just say things would be different. Moreover, with the majority of fights simply being an angry mob trying to take our HP to 0, and us to them, you kind of pidgeon hole everyone into the now. I've babbled about more complex encounters and environments before, but without them, the game will ultimately be a lot more of more of the same.

[ManaKing]

Offense in general is just too effective. When you are 16 v 1 against a boss. Only 1 or 2 people actually have to be able to take hits.

If they are physical, almost everything in the game can be negated by /NIN.

Oh man a caster? Stun, Silence, Addle.

AOE or Resets hate? a tank 1 v 1 the mob with a WHM healing them.

Yeah it's not like there isn't some challenge left in the game, but for the most part everyone has gotten out of hand. The reason I bitch about needing buffs for RDM is that we really haven't. If the entire game is going to be dumbed down, at least include RDM in it. It's the discrimination and comparison that hurts more than anything else.

[Duelle]

Offense in general is just too effective. When you are 16 v 1 against a boss. Only 1 or 2 people actually have to be able to take hits.To be fair, few of the jobs were designed to be able to take more than one or two hits before kissing dirt. At the same time, because of this you can't really implement too many encounter mechanics that involve group/raid damage (not to mention group healing would have to get some adjustments to work with the new mechanics).

Yeah it's not like there isn't some challenge left in the game, but for the most part everyone has gotten out of hand. The reason I bitch about needing buffs for RDM is that we really haven't. If the entire game is going to be dumbed down, at least include RDM in it. It's the discrimination and comparison that hurts more than anything else.I'd rather think that we want changes to RDM so that it can start doing things we've been wanting to do since some of us rolled one.

As far as controlling the degree as the Acc -> MAcc, I'd say... 1/10. 400 Root Accuracy = +40 Magical Accuracy is a sizable boost.I was thinking more along the lines of 3/10, or 1/5 if that's too much.

[Hyrist]

iirc, 35 is the total magical accuracy given by Elemental Saves, so 40 would be superior to that Going twice that or more would be really broken.

Not that I'd particularly mind. I hate Staves on RDM with a particularly venomous hatred. People who tote multiple staves around are the ones who complain most about inventory issues. Bare minimum of them, you're talking 3 inventory slots that can be done without the clutter.

Of course, you'll have to get the healers away from their +22% cure potency though, and even I get tempted by a full potency Ice Magians. But then again, I'm more tempted in the prospect of having BLU at the ready for any time I get flat out told I can't front-line on RDM.

As far as group/raid mechanics and some jobs just being too squishy. I'd say that's a direction SE can take the other jobs. Right now most DD's got their damage aspects down, I don't see it it improving much more than it already is for many of them. Expanding their utilities would allow for another direction for them to improve/sidegrade without running into the redundancy we have with so many damage dealer jobs out there. Plus, it would help keep battles more interesting if they're given tools to deal with a different kind of endgame than your typical tank and spank.

[Duelle]

Not that I'd particularly mind. I hate Staves on RDM with a particularly venomous hatred. People who tote multiple staves around are the ones who complain most about inventory issues. Bare minimum of them, you're talking 3 inventory slots that can be done without the clutter.Could be worse. You could be like me who uses a +MAB Shamshiir as an excuse to never use staves. I'd just like to kill the reliance on staves when front-lining, though. If you're spamming nukes or healing one should ideally be in caster gear and nothing else. The image of real mageblades that put staves to shame is still a very nice one, though.

[Hyrist]

Shamshir +2
Mainhand Inverse Light

Offhand Darkness

or, Offhand Darkness Shamshir +2 and mainhaind fully magian upgraded Murgleis, if you've got a pack of zombie slaves to help you.

However, the draw of the staves now isn't just the magical accuracy. Goodness knows we've got plenty of that. It's the +22% Cure potency, and the extra Nuke Potency given on these Magian staves that look attractive, even to me.

Still, I've got such a deep seeded detest for how a set of level 51 staves were used for years as an argument against ever letting a Red Mage draw their blades. And SE's reaction to it was about 5 years too late, and way too weak of an adjustment. I doubt I'll ever take the staves I do have out of satchel.

[Tamarsamar]

Shamshir +2
Mainhand Inverse Light

Offhand Darkness

If by "Inverse Light" you mean the one with the Additional Effect, why not Mainhand the +Magic Accuracy Shamshir +2 and Offhand the Additional Effect, and use them with Enspells II?

As enamored as I was with a Magic Accuracy Sword at first, though, we aren't exactly lacking in Magic Accuracy nowadays. So you might as well get a Sword that maximizes your physical ability, be it a Lightning-path Accuracy Shamshir +2, some kind of Khanda +2, or a Chant du Cygne weapon.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

If by "Inverse Light" you mean the one with the Additional Effect, why not Mainhand the +Magic Accuracy Shamshir +2 and Offhand the Additional Effect, and use them with Enspells II?

As enamored as I was with a Magic Accuracy Sword at first, though, we aren't exactly lacking in Magic Accuracy nowadays. So you might as well get a Sword that maximizes your physical ability, be it a Lightning-path Accuracy Shamshir +2, some kind of Khanda +2, or a Chant du Cygne weapon.

Go Almace, best looking weapon in game :)

[Tamarsamar]

Go Almace, best looking weapon in game :)

I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic, because I don't even feel like getting mad now.

[katz]

By keeping RDM cures to cure iv it will help redefine RDM isnt just a healer role. It does need some sort of boost to be recognised as the enfeebler role that most players seem to over look and a boost to its melee so that RDM who want to melee dont have to justify why they are meleeing in parties. I would like to see some boost to the healing powers as a secondary healer role, maybe give use Regen I -V lol.

[Hyrist]

If by "Inverse Light" you mean the one with the Additional Effect, why not Mainhand the +Magic Accuracy Shamshir +2 and Offhand the Additional Effect, and use them with Enspells II?

As enamored as I was with a Magic Accuracy Sword at first, though, we aren't exactly lacking in Magic Accuracy nowadays. So you might as well get a Sword that maximizes your physical ability, be it a Lightning-path Accuracy Shamshir +2, some kind of Khanda +2, or a Chant du Cygne weapon.


I was thinking strictly Magical Accuracy if you were concerned, but no I agree with you fully on that part.

Going Badelaire +2/ Oa 2-4 Khanda +2 until I can get into a VNM/Empy Weapon LS that would accept me going after an Almace.

There is a laundry list of those swords I want though. And I'm really hoping the physical Trial Swords are going to split in name here soon.

And Stat Wise, Almace is the best looking sword in game, at least to me. Aesthetically... eh...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic, because I don't even feel like getting mad now.

???

Almace is the single biggest improvement to our melee damage in a long time, plus it is a gorgeous weapon.

[Supersun]

The only thing to keep in mind is when dual wielding the activation rate for the additional effects on the TotM weapons is reduced

[Tamarsamar]

Almace is the single biggest improvement to our melee damage in a long time

This is the truth.


plus it is a gorgeous weapon.

This couldn't be any further from the truth. Unless you're like one of those FFVII fanboys who think that the bigger a sword is, the better it looks.

Really, that sword is so gaudy that if I must get a Swan Song weapon, I'd purposefully forgo the Almace in favor of the Badelaire +2.

[Hyrist]

Yep, that's why I said main hand first. it would be at the expense of enspells, but whatever.

I personally find Almace to be a touch gaudy and broad, especially for RDM to wield, but to each their own. You can't deny the stats, or the WS, for that matter.

I just imagine it's an "H" My character is slashing.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

This is the truth.



This couldn't be any further from the truth. Unless you're like one of those FFVII fanboys who think that the bigger a sword is, the better it looks.

Really, that sword is so gaudy that if I must get a Swan Song weapon, I'd purposefully forgo the Almace in favor of the Badelaire +2.

I disliked FFVII. I like the Almace however.

[Stylin]

Personally I like Almace's look except while performing Chant du Cygne. There's just something odd about such a broad sword doing the Z for Zorro.

[Doombringer]

yah.. looks-wise it doesn't quite "fit" rdm.. but whatever, i have one, and they can pry it from my cold dead fingers at this point. i <3 it.

ideally, looks-wise.. i like the honorbound model. crimson and gold longsword. though i know a lot of rdms would say fleuret/rapier types.

[Tamarsamar]

To be honest, the longsword model myself is my personal favorite, too (such as on the Enhancing Sword). The only reasons I would think of to tolerate the fleuret model is if (pre-Abyssea) you're in a level range where it's the absolute best weapon you have for 10+ levels (Royal Guard's Fleuret) or you're unlocking Death Blossom (Vorpal Sword). I mean, I guess that the Chimeric Fleuret looks kind of cool to toy around with as well, from a stat perspective.

But yeah, if you have an Almace, well, I hope you like lugging about an ugly bar of blue metal for the rest of your career . . .

[Hyrist]

But yeah, if you have an Almace, well, I hope you like lugging about an ugly bar of blue metal for the rest of your career . . .

Oh... hello Joyeuse.

[Duelle]

Really, that sword is so gaudy that if I must get a Swan Song weapon, I'd purposefully forgo the Almace in favor of the Badelaire +2.Ah, so I'm not alone in disliking the look of that sword. It does look completely imbalanced as a sword. The blade itself is too wide for practical use, and reminds me of Clemente from tales of destiny (sans the soul of the perverted old man).

[Tamarsamar]

Oh... hello Joyeuse.

Bad example. I disliked Joyeuse's design, as well (but for slightly different reasons).


Ah, so I'm not alone in disliking the look of that sword. It does look completely imbalanced as a sword. The blade itself is too wide for practical use, and reminds me of Clemente from tales of destiny (sans the soul of the perverted old man).

I was surprised by this post, but pretty much yes.

[Duelle]

Bad example. I disliked Joyeuse's design, as well (but for slightly different reasons).As much as I wish it were the case, not every game can have rapiers that look like this (http://yare-yare.com/kamael_weapons.jpg).

[Karbuncle]

I know its ugly but srsly choosing the WoE Gimpyrean over Almace?

This is one of the lesser known reasons why RDM melee is laughed at. "I'll melee in full Relic because it looks good :3"

Fashion and function dont always go hand in hand, You have to learn that in FFXI =.=a

[Tamarsamar]

I know its ugly but srsly choosing the WoE Gimpyrean over Almace?

This is one of the lesser known reasons why RDM melee is laughed at. "I'll melee in full Relic because it looks good :3"

Fashion and function dont always go hand in hand, You have to learn that in FFXI =.=a

I think that there's a slight difference between knowingly settling for the second-best weapon, and not having any clue what TP/WS sets are.

[Karbuncle]

I think that there's a slight difference between knowingly settling for the second-best weapon, and not having any clue what TP/WS sets are.

I don't think so, Both cases you willingly gimp yourself.

Knowing which is better and purposefully choosing the worse of the two i think is actually worse than not knowing which is the worse of the two >.<

[Supersun]

I don't think he literally meant he would use the badelaire over the almace because it looks better...

[Tamarsamar]

I don't think he literally meant he would use the badelaire over the almace because it looks better...

If I were given an Almace, I certainly wouldn't turn it down.

Otherwise, I don't think I could be bothered going through the effort of forging that broad eyesore, even as easy as some people claim it to be.

[Karbuncle]

I don't think he literally meant he would use the badelaire over the almace because it looks better...


Really, that sword is so gaudy that if I must get a Swan Song weapon, I'd purposefully forgo the Almace in favor of the Badelaire +2.

You might be right but it REALLY sounded serious.

Though I do have a habit of looking too far into things. I can write it off as a misunderstanding.


If I were given an Almace, I certainly wouldn't turn it down.

Otherwise, I don't think I could be bothered going through the effort of forging that broad eyesore, even as easy as some people claim it to be.

I actually think the WoE Version is harder to get lol.

[Tamarsamar]

I don't think so, Both cases you willingly gimp yourself.

Knowing which is better and purposefully choosing the worse of the two i think is actually worse than not knowing which is the worse of the two >.<

This is where your opinion and my own go in completely opposite directions.

[Karbuncle]

This is where your opinion and my own go in completely opposite directions.

mmm, thats the wonderful thing about opinions! Everyones is different! I would like to hear more about yours really.

[Hyrist]

I actually think the WoE Version is harder to get lol.

WoE isn't hard, people just fret about death and failure too much to repeat WoE for 30 coins. Which, honestly, they're not hard to obtain.

That said, I plan on getting both Badelaire +2 and Almace. Collecting swords is my hobby in this game. Part of the reason why I've considered leveling PLD and BLU.

[Karbuncle]

WoE isn't hard, people just fret about death and failure too much to repeat WoE for 30 coins. Which, honestly, they're not hard to obtain.

That said, I plan on getting both Badelaire +2 and Almace. Collecting swords is my hobby in this game. Part of the reason why I've considered leveling PLD and BLU.

Actually, I was talking in regards to Walk of Echoes that anyone can enter lot and steal your items at just about any time...

Its not that the event is hard, Its the randomness, For instance when you kill Briarius, You get helms, where as in WoE your coin isnt always going to be the one you get/drops.

Its all easier i just felt the real emp's were easier at this point. But its all semantics really as it doesn't matter :X

[Tamarsamar]

What is it that matters here, then?

[ManaKing]

This is the truth.



This couldn't be any further from the truth. Unless you're like one of those FFVII fanboys who think that the bigger a sword is, the better it looks.

Really, that sword is so gaudy that if I must get a Swan Song weapon, I'd purposefully forgo the Almace in favor of the Badelaire +2.

Ramza Dual Wields Great Swords like a boss. Anything that is anywhere close to that is as cool as it gets. I personally like Murgleis better, but the difference is whether i like purple or green better. They are both winners, but purple is always going to win.

[katz]

Actually, I was talking in regards to Walk of Echoes that anyone can enter lot and steal your items at just about any time...

No such thing as stealing YOUR items if its not in Your sack its not YOURS

[Karbuncle]

Actually, I was talking in regards to Walk of Echoes that anyone can enter lot and steal your items at just about any time...

No such thing as stealing YOUR items if its not in Your sack its not YOURS

You know what i meant. I just used bad wording.

[Hyrist]

Actually, I was talking in regards to Walk of Echoes that anyone can enter lot and steal your items at just about any time...

There's not enough activity in WoE, at least on my server, to really worry about that issue anymore. As far as the chances of Coins drop, that's a valid concern. Though, one has to wonder what takes more time when it comes to gathering the pop items, farming for time, killing the NM, etc.

I guess it all boils down to luck I suppose. I do tend to find Walk of Echos to be enjoyably chaotic fun though.

[Karbuncle]

There's not enough activity in WoE, at least on my server, to really worry about that issue anymore. As far as the chances of Coins drop, that's a valid concern. Though, one has to wonder what takes more time when it comes to gathering the pop items, farming for time, killing the NM, etc.

I guess it all boils down to luck I suppose. I do tend to find Walk of Echos to be enjoyably chaotic fun though.

I just recall reading so many horror stories on WoE. For instance there are people who /sea-camp the zone and go when people show up just to leech coins/etc. (Used to be anyway).

just thought you could likely burn through a stage 85 Empyrean quicker than a 85 Gimpyrean. But as you said, It comes down to luck...

[Doombringer]

woe sucks.. drops get poached, and the droprate are less reliable than in aby. (sure, it can be time consuming to get 50 helms/skins, but at least when you kill sobek you get sobek skins.. in woe you could go all day and not get any of the RIGHT coins) woe is just to reliant on luck.

then if you have proper atmas and all/most abyssites of merit/furtherance... most emp nms are no harder than clearing a woe zone. honestly, sobek and briarius are duoable. and i'm sure somebody somewhere has soloed them. and gukumatz's KI can be goldboxed now..

AND they added more +2 items to sobek, and even a couple to briarius. so you could prolly get STRANGERS to help you out.

i would say, unless you can solo woe, well... it's not worth it. because as soon as you step up to a trio or even a duo, you now have the manpower to build a real almace. it's not hard, it's just time consuming. the real problem with the fake emps is that they can end up just as time consuming if not worse due to the random nature of WoE.

honestly i don't think we do woe "right". seems to me like it was supposed to be the new campaign. something strangers do together, with one happening near constantly, and the chips fall where they may. but since abyssea is so much more popular, woe is a dead event, and you're not getting any coins without a significant effort. a significant efort put towards a weaker weapon.


that being said, don't let me be the party shitter. if you can get a badelaire easily, do it. CdC is a huge buff, no matter where you get it from.

[katz]

What idea to reduce 10-15% dmg? RDM shouldn't be meleeing in the tank pt when they have multiple DDs to cure, come on really lol? Raise the subtle blow cap JUST for rdm? That's ridiculous. It's not crying when i have seen it hundreds of times, RDMs meleeing, not hasting, not curing, not refreshing anyone but themselves.

The same can be said for tanks that dont pull hate off the mages even though its expected of them. When the majority of the DD classes see RDMs roles is to support DDs rather than act like a DD themselves its an up hill struggle to change attitudes. Why dont you see the same complaints about Dancers not healing DDs, because people dont see it as the primary function of the job. How do we change peoples opinion that RDM is also not the primary function of a healers role and they are fine DDing and curing themselves without taking the healer role away from the WHM and making the RDM back to being a primary DD role with secondary healing abilities. There is nothing wrong with the RDM self healing and supporting with debuffs while attacking just needs to lower the tp feeding and its fine. Im not saying I wouldnt throw out the odd cures to the others but why should it be the primary role.

[Hyrist]

Ah, a newbie to the conversation, welcome.

I'm working on an FAQ at this point so we can keep people on the same page of conversation. It might take a while because I'm going to have to summerise the arguments and the problems we'd like to see addressed.

Would anyone be opposed to me attempting to write up a credo as far as the general idea of what we agree on, just to have something to unite behind while we're sharing ideas?

[Yarly]

I think redmages should be able to use all weapons.
LIKE UKONVASARA! That'll be the best. Someone make a thread and make sure to put [TO THE DEVS] in the title or else they won't look at it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I think redmages should be able to use all weapons.
LIKE UKONVASARA! That'll be the best. Someone make a thread and make sure to put [TO THE DEVS] in the title or else they won't look at it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

Fail troll attempt, bravo!

1/10 - NOTE: Try harder!

[Winrie]

I doubt that was a troll, that was prolly their normal intelligence level.

[Duelle]

I doubt that was a troll, that was prolly their normal intelligence level.The overuse of the exclamation points suggests troll, so I'll side with daniel on this one.

By the way, Hyrist, that's fine. Post it here, I'll paste it into the OP and we can continue about our day.

[katz]

Not sure if this counts as off topic I apologise if it is but to me it makes sense to remove the spells bought by merits and use the 2nd category to boost RDMs other abilities like the RDM are asking for. More merits for melee, damage,evasion, etc to define the RDM role of non healer better and give them the opportunity to boost their other aspects of the job. This would then free up the magic scrolls for other jobs if people wanted them allocating say to BLM or WHM. I know its a bit late in the Role for this change but maybe something could be written to give RDM merits back for reallocation and automatically add the merited spells to the magic list.

Apologise for the dual post of the above but as the RDM community I would like you discuss my proposal. It is posted under BIO 3 for drk thread in the discussions forum.

[Seriha]

All merit spells and abilities being level progressed as opposed to merits is something myself and others have been for for a long time. Hell, converting RDM's is easy since Slow II can just become a generic Slow potency that applies to all tiers, maybe even allowing Slow III somewhere between 91-99 if Slow II was somewhere between 60-75. Granted, it would still suck if we're left with too many choices where it's all in or not at all, but the merit situation pretty much reflects our general melee shortcomings with an overwhelming lack of physical perks.

[Dale]

It was a given that I would post on this, so let's get it done with.

The general state of our class' melee has been questionable for a very long time. We're usually stuck with healing and casting refresh/haste because our other faculties never really provided much of a benefit in parties.

Abyssea gave us atma and gear with a lot of support to our elemental spells (+Magic Attack Bonus and +Magic Accuracy on both gear and atma). The problem is that as a result, our martial side was almost completly neglected in the process (barring a couple of pieces). This is very much a shame, as a class that is themed as a fencer/magic swordsman (look at the name on our gear if you don't believe me) is used as anything but.

I know suggestions have been kicked around and back-and-forth discussions on RDM melee have taken place for years, now. At the same time, nothing has ever been really done to make our melee side stand out in a way that we can use our swords as more than just soloing toys. While I acknowledge one or two individuals who tote the melee side of RDM as workable, I also note anyone wanting to do more than just heal, refresh and haste instantly meets notable resistance because the way our class is designed doesn't really help us say "I want to melee in this party and am justified in wanting to do so". To add insult to injury, we are so associated with heals, Refresh and Haste that I've even encountered individuals who say they'd be fine with RDM melee so long as the heals, refresh and haste are still coming from us.

Personally, we kind of need a way to define the roles we choose to undertake. I can't think of anything we as players can do to accomplish that. I'd think a change in mechanics for our class would be in order.

I have my own wishlist of changes for our class, but I just wanted to get that out of my chest and see how other people feel about the matter. I just think it's wasteful to have a class that dresses like a french musketeer and wields magic and a rapier but is used exclusively to heal and buff.

I agree our melee could use some work. Part of the problem is SE is very stingy with weapon skills for Red Mage. We should without a doubt get Sanguine Blade without having to sub certain jobs.

[Hyrist]

Among many other things, Dale.

EX weaponskills do not sight right by me. It never has. Most of them consist of enhances Magical Weaponskills we'd benefit the most from having. Having access to these weapon skills and being able to Dual Wield should not be mutually exclusive.

There are only 3 logical Sword Classes in the game, and only 2 have access to EX Sword skills. If any class should have to speciify a subjob for access to the skills, it probably should be Dark Knight. But I'm in favor of abolishing the Ex system entirely.

[saevel]

Agree with EX Weapon Skills being crap. RDM should natively have access to most of them, but I think we're giving SE too much credit here. The game designers don't actually play the game and thus have no idea what's practical. They draw it on a piece of paper and if the concept seems legit to go with it. Heck Abyssea armor and weapons was them going out on a limb.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Agree with EX Weapon Skills being crap. RDM should natively have access to most of them, but I think we're giving SE too much credit here. The game designers don't actually play the game and thus have no idea what's practical. They draw it on a piece of paper and if the concept seems legit to go with it. Heck Abyssea armor and weapons was them going out on a limb.

It's pretty ignorant to state any gaming company, especially Square-Enix, implements concepts to the game without testing them at all, no matter how much you dislike SE's sense of balance.

[Swords]

They did actually back in 2001, but SE for the most part tests things based on how the playerbase as a whole plays these jobs now. Since society pretty much pigeonholed RDM into the backline position SE decided to focus on the mage part of RDM. Unfortunately even if SE did make RDM into a comparable DD with the moderate/heavy melee classes, I still doubt many would give RDM half a chance to try meleeing.

[Doombringer]

well, whm is a bandwagon job now, so at least some of the pressure should be off as far as players being DESPERATE for healers.

there's at least MORE leeway now than there used to be.. how much that is however is debatable

[Swords]

Aye, it's the mindset of the people as a whole. Many still see RDM as a backline job partily due to the lack of any real support from SE and how people have always seen RDM played rather than how it was conceptualized.

Granted, the lack of power RDM has compared too all the upgrades most jobs have been given, has landed us in the "useless" category where it could work in our favor if SE plays their cards right. RDM no longer being seen as demi-gods gives SE the opportunity to actually get creative with less risk and fear of overpowering the job.

[Seriha]

I can't say I dig the concept of deliberate stagnation for the sake of eventual revitalization. There's way, way, way too much good faith there given what we've seen, what we expect to see, and how we've overall been treated over the years.

As is, the other night I finished off babbling with someone who's under the impression RDM melee is in a good spot and will only get better as the cap rises. Their reason? CDC. One only needs to look to the census to see how many CDC-capable swords are out there, and then guesstimate the odds of bumping into a RDM at any given moment with the weapon (let alone people willing to help a lolmeleerdm without something being in it for them). I argued the zero to hero status reflective of performance between those who have CDC and those who don't is not a good sign of balance, nor is the RDM of back then or now at all welcome on mobs of legitimate difficulty.

Who knows, maybe we will get a new WS at 95 that bridges the gap, or could quest another at 99 that does similar. All I know is acceptance shouldn't begin at endgame, and only after you've endured endgame long enough to earn your piece. When other jobs have gotten yet better gear and more traits while we're still largely using the same, and were shunned with said same, no... I can't buy it. If SE's setting us up to head in any particular direction that isn't down, they're doing a poor job of cluing us in.

[saevel]

Cure's were doing 99999 damage to undead, so no I think we can all agree that SE doesn't actually test things. Not only that, but many of the current game mechanics were made by the same people who created the masterpiece known as FFXIV.

Now the current dev's are much better, unfortunately they have to be very careful about changing or re-balancing old stuff created by the previous guys. In east Asian culture it's a pretty big insult to change things set by your older / more senior predecessors. It would give the impression that the previous guys were "wrong", and you can't do that without upsetting people. So they have to create new stuff and do new things that aren't related to the previous guys, and from the looks of things it seems there is contention inside the design team on what exactly RDM should be doing. Avesta didn't do us any favors.

[Neisan_Quetz]

EDIT: Better explained in Update thread.

[Hyrist]

saevel... there is so much wrong with that statement I don't even think I can say anything.

[saevel]

It's the honest truth. One of those quirks of I've learned to live with out here even though it goes against my "western" mindset. You never want to make your superiors look bad, or do / say something that directly contradicts them. Instead you go the round about method and make all sorts of excuse's. Instead of being "wrong" they just were "misunderstood" or that something else changed which would require that we move in a different direction. Look at the old lead guy for FFXIV, he screwed up that entire project, cost his company millions in development cost then ten's of millions in lost subscription fee's and lost sales. And instead of firing him, they simple allow him to "move on" to "greater things" and positions of more "responsibility". In actuality he'll be stuck behind a desk for the rest of his career and never given creative control of another project, ever. Not once did anyone on his staff, neither his seniors nor any of this juniors say a single negative word or put any blame on him, even though as the lead manager the success / failure is his responsibility.

That is just how things are done. RDM is screwed up, it's been screwed up since JP PS2 release before it had refresh / gravity / phalanx. Some of it's core design is flawed, and while SE has done amazing things with many other jobs, they seem reluctant to go back and change anything on RDM, even when it makes sense (Sang Blade, RLB / Seraph Blade). This speaks volumes that somehow RDM is a sore issue amongst the dev's.

[Hyrist]

That's really kind of ignoring the vastness of what RDM could do.

At 75, RDM melee was in fairly good shape, aside from a utility that would allow it's presence in the front lines to work against things harder than your normal fodder. The proof was in the parse that we were doing upwards of 80% of a dedicated damage dealer with comparable gear (meaning high end gear RDM was hitting 80% of high end gear Samurai.)

The main issues have always been on the player base side of not wanting to jump the hurtles to improve, and the Zero to Hero issue SE put in MUCH of our performance except for curing. (This includes nuking gear, set ups, etc.)

As far as 'going back and fixing stuff' back then it made sense to restrict RDM to melee subjobs to have emphasis on meleeing. Dagger was as viable for RDM as Sword so dagger usage dual weilding made more sense, and we got Evisceration for it.

But now as Sword makes itself more and more prominent, and the idea of other jobs such as DRK and WAR using 1h swords is further and further from being likely, it really does not make as much sense. Now, this can change if trends continue and the spell 'brave1' in the dats works like I think it does, and bestows Double/Tripple Attack. That would make /war the most popular (oh hai Fencer and EX Weaponskills) and paired with us being able to control Gain Dex and Gain Str choices between gear and weapon skills, it'll settle a lot of our current gear juggling problems.

You can try to excuse it on the differences in culture (which seems slightly racist, to be honest). However, I am more along the lines that they were too cautious to push RDM's performance in the front lines back when we were so popular in the back lines as a healer. So they took that away, pinned it on WHM, used our AF3 + Saboteur to pin our casting back to the buffing/debuffing roles and are now seeming to turn our attention, albeit far too slowly, back to our Melee again.

I'm still skeptical, but the dats show 2 new possible spells (one looks like a funky enspell), and 1 definite new job ability for RDM down the pipeline.

[Eeek]

Hyrist, you can't attack saevel's post by saying "there is so much wrong with that statement I don't even think I can say anything" and then immediately follow it with paragraph after paragraph of absolute nonsense like that found in the above post.

[Aurara]

That's really kind of ignoring the vastness of what RDM could do.

At 75, RDM melee was in fairly good shape, aside from a utility that would allow it's presence in the front lines to work against things harder than your normal fodder. The proof was in the parse that we were doing upwards of 80% of a dedicated damage dealer with comparable gear (meaning high end gear RDM was hitting 80% of high end gear Samurai.)

You must have played with some really terrible sams because there is no way a RDM will out dmg a sam by 80%.


The main issues have always been on the player base side of not wanting to jump the hurtles to improve, and the Zero to Hero issue SE put in MUCH of our performance except for curing. (This includes nuking gear, set ups, etc.)
lol? I'm not sure you realize that we want actual improvements on rdm, not melee crap that wont do jack for helping at events.


As far as 'going back and fixing stuff' back then it made sense to restrict RDM to melee subjobs to have emphasis on meleeing. Dagger was as viable for RDM as Sword so dagger usage dual weilding made more sense, and we got Evisceration for it.
Joytoy would like to have a word with you....


But now as Sword makes itself more and more prominent, and the idea of other jobs such as DRK and WAR using 1h swords is further and further from being likely, it really does not make as much sense. Now, this can change if trends continue and the spell 'brave1' in the dats works like I think it does, and bestows Double/Tripple Attack. That would make /war the most popular (oh hai Fencer and EX Weaponskills) and paired with us being able to control Gain Dex and Gain Str choices between gear and weapon skills, it'll settle a lot of our current gear juggling problems.
What the....? Gain DEX...Gain STR....? wouldn't help rdm dmg at all...lol....



You can try to excuse it on the differences in culture (which seems slightly racist, to be honest). However, I am more along the lines that they were too cautious to push RDM's performance in the front lines back when we were so popular in the back lines as a healer. So they took that away, pinned it on WHM, used our AF3 + Saboteur to pin our casting back to the buffing/debuffing roles and are now seeming to turn our attention, albeit far too slowly, back to our Melee again.

Culture? Saboteur was meant to make spells last longer, not for you to cast spells with it then melee with your pitiful weapons.


I'm still skeptical, but the dats show 2 new possible spells (one looks like a funky enspell), and 1 definite new job ability for RDM down the pipeline.

And neither of them will help rdm melee unless SE decides to cater to this crap, lol.

[Swords]

You must have played with some really terrible sams because there is no way a RDM will out dmg a sam by 80%.


He didn't say the RDM out DD'd the SAM, he said the RDM was able to output damage up too 80% of what the SAM had done. IE: If the SAM did 1000 damage the RDM was doing 800.



Culture? Saboteur was meant to make spells last longer, not for you to cast spells with it then melee with your pitiful weapons.


Actually, spellcasting is one of the biggest burdens to RDM, any old school RDM like myself knows your constantly casting debuffs, cures, buffs and reapplying as necessary is almost non-stop in a battle. Truthfully that's also one of the biggest blockaids to a RDM meleeing, because casting effects your overall DoT and TP gain for WS's in battle.



And neither of them will help rdm melee unless SE decides to cater to this crap, lol.

Hey it worked for SAM's when they bitched and moaned about being second tier DD's prior to all the boosts they got.

[Aurara]

Changes nothing, if a RDM is doing 80% of a SAM's dmg that SAM is crap, stop comparing yourself to crap players and find a properly geared SAM or whatever DD you're going to say a RDM can do 80% of the dmg of, lol.

[Swords]

Changes nothing, if a RDM is doing 80% of a SAM's dmg that SAM is crap, stop comparing yourself to crap players and find a properly geared SAM or whatever DD you're going to say a RDM can do 80% of the dmg of, lol.

Alright, I'll ask you this. Would you believe me, Hyrist, or anyone else if they had compared a fully decked out seasoned SAM to a well equipped seasoned RDM that still output 80% of the SAM's damage comparitively, even IF they put out screenshots, pharser results, and anything else they could think of?

[Aurara]

Alright, I'll ask you this. Would you believe me, Hyrist, or anyone else if they had compared a fully decked out seasoned SAM to a well equipped seasoned RDM that still output 80% of the SAM's damage comparitively, even IF they put out screenshots, pharser results, and anything else they could think of?
No, because that won't happen unless the sam sucks.

Edit: SAM is an actual DD, RDM is not that is why they got DD buffs and RDM did not.

[Rearden]

At Lv75, if I WS'd Khimmy 4 or 5 times on SAM (Approx. 4800-6000dmg), I don't think a RDM could catch up unless he was tanking. On that same note, if I was tanking Khimmy on SAM, there's no RDM in the world who could have caught up...and it's not like I was Amano'ing it or anything.

[Swords]

No, because that won't happen unless the sam sucks.



That's what I thought you'd say.

[Aurara]

Actually, spellcasting is one of the biggest burdens to RDM, any old school RDM like myself knows your constantly casting debuffs, cures, buffs and reapplying as necessary is almost non-stop in a battle. Truthfully that's also one of the biggest blockaids to a RDM meleeing, because casting effects your overall DoT and TP gain for WS's in battle.

What...? RDM's job is not to be on the frontlines, get over yourself lol. There is a reason that they have all of the enhancing/enfeeb spells(i.e slow2 para2 gravity, etc), granted some of these spells overlap, but RDM still has the job of debuffing/buffing/curing, not meleeing.




Hey it worked for SAM's when they bitched and moaned about being second tier DD's prior to all the boosts they got.
I said this already, but SAM is a frontline DD, RDM is not.


That's what I thought you'd say.
Also, wut? It's true, there is no way a RDM is going to come CLOSE to the SAM's dmg unless the sam is terrible, or dead argue any way you want, you're wrong.

[Swords]

At Lv75, if I WS'd Khimmy 4 or 5 times on SAM (Approx. 4800-6000dmg), I don't think a RDM could catch up unless he was tanking. On that same note, if I was tanking Khimmy on SAM, there's no RDM in the world who could have caught up...and it's not like I was Amano'ing it or anything.

Aye realisticly, the RDM would have to be entirely focusing on melee to keep/catch up. If he's taking care of 500 spells for the party/alliance there's no way he could keep up marginally. And it's really that bad as it is, which is why I DO NOT want any new spells for RDM.

[Aurara]

Aye realisticly, the RDM would have to be entirely focusing on melee to keep/catch up. If he's taking care of 500 spells for the party/alliance there's no way he could keep up marginally. And it's really that bad as it is, which is why I DO NOT want any new spells for RDM.

No, the RDM could be fulltime melee not curing or doing any sort of spellcasting and still not come close to 80% of the claimed SAM dmg, you're wrong just stop arguing lol.

[Rearden]

Right but, if I was co-tanking with a RDM, he still wouldn't come near 80% of what I was doing. There's a reason SAM was such a great tank (it deals damage).

[Hyrist]

No, the RDM could be fulltime melee not curing or doing any sort of spellcasting and still not come close to 80% of the claimed SAM dmg, you're wrong just stop arguing lol.

Actually, Aurara, at 75 cap (ToAU era) it would be you that's incorrect. There were multiple parses taken to prove this point done during that time. The fact that RDM could do pretty much half a dedicated Healer's curing amoun, maintain Dia III and ~80% of DDs in Colibri Era is set in stone, that's not even disputable. (And this was before Composure was released, mind you.) But it took quite a bit of gear work on behalf of the RDM to do so. And they were not primary healer in party. Those circumstances alone was argument enough to keep any sort of acceptance from being realized.

Nowadays? I wouldn't contest the fact that RDM's Melee performance has lagged behind that point. RDM can cap haste now, mind you, but laggs behind far more in other stats such as Attack/Str, etc to catch up on some of the burst damage many do. And again, RDM is forced to leap some high hurtles to push their performance. (A CDC weapon at this point is pretty much a must.)

But this isn't anything new for RDM's historically. 51-70s were a gigantic performance gap area for RDM's frontline before Composure came. By the time that JA came out, it was far too late to break the stigma for the majority of players, including Red Mages. Post Joyeuse, especially post Blau Dolch, however, the gap started tightening up fairly hard. So, to me, it comes as no surprise that from 80-99 we're going to lag behind in transitional performance stages.

Right now, my eyes are focused on what RDM is getting in the next patch releaced. From what I've seen in the dats, we're beyond the concept phase. What we seem to be getting is JA form Quick Cast, a new (different) Enspell, and a Spell called Brave (probably Bravery). I'm wondering how these two spells are going to function, because honeslty, they could be the Utility + Performance increase we've been asking for respectively.

[Aurara]

Actually, Aurara, at 75 cap (ToAU era) it would be you that's incorrect. There were multiple parses taken to prove this point done during that time. The fact that RDM could do pretty much half a dedicated Healer's curing amoun, maintain Dia III and ~80% of DDs in Colibri Era is set in stone, that's not even disputable. (And this was before Composure was released, mind you.) But it took quite a bit of gear work on behalf of the RDM to do so. And they were not primary healer in party. Those circumstances alone was argument enough to keep any sort of acceptance from being realized.
Those must have been some really terribly geared DDs because that shouldn't even happen, lol.

I dont care to respond to your other stuff because its equally ridiculous RDM wont come within 80% unless the DDs are crap or dead.

[Hyrist]

This is old arguments, actually, like, 2008 old.

But it's been done, it's been parsed, and it's been worded in a way that cannot be more adequately put.

Your disbelief isn't anything new. (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=2&mid=1206353602237783735&h=50&p=2#90)

There's more, buried under the long history of RDM melee arguments that people ignored throughout the years. There's hard data that's proved it both in parse and in the math. Just because people want to cup their ears, close their eyes and go 'na na na it's not real because it breaks with my preconceptions!' does not change the reality of what actually happened. I sat there and witnessed this guy myself. (probably still have pics buried in my Photobucket, actually.) It was the real deal.

Ask a RDM to try to replicate that now at 90? Doubt it.

[Rearden]

Stating that something is a fact, generally undisputed, etc, doesn't really make it so. I can take my DRK to most any Abys PT, not go AFK for an hour and not only come within 80% of, but usually outparse other DD's in the party.

This isn't due to DRK being a good DD, me being a great DRK or me having great gear - it's because 99% of the playerbase ISN'T WORTH COMPARING YOURSELF TO.

[Aurara]

This is old arguments, actually, like, 2008 old.

But it's been done, it's been parsed, and it's been worded in a way that cannot be more adequately put.

Your disbelief isn't anything new. (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=2&mid=1206353602237783735&h=50&p=2#90)

There's more, buried under the long history of RDM melee arguments that people ignored throughout the years. There's hard data that's proved it both in parse and in the math. Just because people want to cup their ears, close their eyes and go 'na na na it's not real because it breaks with my preconceptions!' does not change the reality of what actually happened. I sat there and witnessed this guy myself. (probably still have pics buried in my Photobucket, actually.) It was the real deal.

Ask a RDM to try to replicate that now at 90? Doubt it.

Except a situation like this can only happen if the DDs are crap, compare yourself to a polearm sam at 75, you wont even come within 50%. Stop using gimp DDs to prove a point, I'm not the one going "NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH" you are, by screaming that DD rdm can do 80% of a SAM's dmg, using gimp DDs to make yourself look better doesn't help, and in fact renders your arguments moot.

[Seriha]

The couple weeks of general quiet were nice while they lasted, I guess.

AFK obfuscating.

[Hyrist]

I'm not going to waste my breath arguing 4 year old data. The concentration should be on here and now, and the point of the matter is 'damage' isn't going to win RDM any hearts. Any hard evidence of them actually achieving that damage just comes with the arguments players like you bark any time it surfaces. So obviously the answer has to be something you can't deny or accuse your fellow DD's of sucking for: A utility.

[Aurara]

I'm not going to waste my breath arguing 4 year old data. The concentration should be on here and now, and the point of the matter is 'damage' isn't going to win RDM any hearts. Any hard evidence of them actually achieving that damage just comes with the arguments players like you bark any time it surfaces. So obviously the answer has to be something you can't deny or accuse your fellow DD's of sucking for: A utility.

Because its crap data, with crap DDs, your arguments have no basis except "HEY I OUT DMG'D DOMARU SAMS ON RDM AT BIRDS LOL IM SUCH A DD". Face it, you're wrong and the data you have is either faked or as i said before, contains crap DDs which makes your argument worthless and void.

[Seriha]

I'm not going to waste my breath arguing 4 year old data. The concentration should be on here and now, and the point of the matter is 'damage' isn't going to win RDM any hearts. Any hard evidence of them actually achieving that damage just comes with the arguments players like you bark any time it surfaces. So obviously the answer has to be something you can't deny or accuse your fellow DD's of sucking for: A utility.

You're not really doing yourself a favor digging up that old stuff. As is, I was skeptical of it at the time being more on my SAM kick while also having my RDM geared, and our BG Shark Buddies are enjoying themselves ripping into it smelling blood and have their RDM Raeg moment. The whole 80% thing is not something to be proud of or even cling to, for as I've said countless times before, people aren't going to want 80% when they can get 100% (Granted that'll nibble into other DDs, so percentages won't cross over nicely).

While we can try to idealize that we'd make up that 20% by other means, it didn't exist then, doesn't exist now, we have no real indication SE plans to make it exist, and you're grumbling with people who think RDM melee should never happen, or at best, off on your own where you're not ruining their precious gaming experience because we, be it here or Alla, are totally going to effin' ruin how the pros play FFXI.

[Aurara]

I'm totally a BG shark because I call people on their BS right?

[Rearden]

I'm not going to waste my breath arguing 4 year old data. The concentration should be on here and now, and the point of the matter is 'damage' isn't going to win RDM any hearts. Any hard evidence of them actually achieving that damage just comes with the arguments players like you bark any time it surfaces. So obviously the answer has to be something you can't deny or accuse your fellow DD's of sucking for: A utility.

Proud to be a BG shark. Also proud that we're not going to argue 4 year old data when people who actually know that that data is false show up.

[Supersun]

Really? Your great rebuttal essentially boils down to that the parse can't be true because "Sam is a DD"

I have seen the errors of my way. Not even math itself can challenge the mighty Aurara.

You are just hiding behind terms like gimp and DD without giving any proof of why


First off if Sam is a DD and because it is a DD it does more damage then a Red Mage the question is how much. Multiple parses have backed this ~80% claim and while the example parse posted was...slightly old...I have seen other ones since then that have continued to back the 80% claim.

The degree which a parse is accuracy can always be questioned, no parse is 100% accurate, but since you refute the 80% number so quickly surely you must have some other piece of evidence to replace it with. If a Rdm can't do 80% of a Sams DD then how much does it do and what evidence do you have to back it up? Surely, you have something to back your claim and it's not just 'a hunch' because Sam is a DD and Rdm is a mage.


Likewise what do you call gimp? What point does a DD stops being gimp? Because until you can give some form of definition for that you can essentially invalidate any piece of information you receive with the veto of gimp. Hell, the definition might as well be 'if the DD cannot outperform a Rdm by at least 20% then he is gimp'.

Rearden stated that 99% of the population isn't worth comparing too so is 99% of the population gimp? The term gimp derives from someone being crippled. It infers that a 'gimp' player is one that performs to an inferior standard to the average 'healthy' player. If you consider 1% not worth parsing against then you aren't claiming that that they aren't gimp, but they aren't +2 blue box super saiyan elite. Gimp does not mean anyone that didn't have an Amanomurakumo.

Believe it or not those ~80% parses were against above average geared players. Sure they weren't perfect in any way or form, but Hagun + Haidates + a respectable store TP set is certainly not gimp.

Even if we presented the most concretely solid piece of evidence the world has ever had the pleasure of witnessing you could just as easily 'invalidate' it by just claiming that the player wasn't trying or wasn't skilled.


There is literally nothing we could present that could change your mind. That's fine, we all have our personal beliefs. But could you at least try not to make some of the most ridiculous logical fallacies I've seen on the internet and at least present something that has the semblance of evidence if you are going to claim that other people's points are wrong and yours is right?

[Hyrist]

I'll note the laced sarcasm, Seriha.

Again, we agree on the emphasis on utility. But I also acknowledge that there's just a section of player's you're never going to appease. I could care less what they think, to be honest. They're the same type that justify monopolizing ground kings and selling the drops to people, and yet see nothing inherently wrong or immoral with it. Or those who felt justified doing the salvage dupes, or MPking each other in every possible way to try to 'get ahead'.

I've a very choice opinion as those people are concerned.

But there's this wash of 'oh how terrible it is' without any data, without any real effort, and it's just as frustrating to me as the RDMs that believe they should be able to melee in mage gear.

Again, I'll reiterate, there's no pleasing those types. But the vast majority of players that fall in-between the two extremes that frustrate the hell out of me have some valid concerns and actually do look at data objectively. It's for those players I keep in mind that there needs to be something beside raw damage to contribute in the front lines for it to be more broadly acceptable, especially in areas like Abyssea where our utility is really lacking.

[Aurara]

Really? Your great rebuttal essentially boils down to that the parse can't be true because "Sam is a DD"
Where is your argument? all I see here is "YOU'RE WRONG RDM CAN DO IT HERE IS 4 YEAR OLD FAKE DATA" that's not an argument, that's digging a deeper hole for yourself.


I have seen the errors of my way. Not even math itself can challenge the mighty Aurara.

Lol@this statement, you're really upset aren't you? I'm sorry i made you so upset but i have yet to use math, i wasnt the one who used the 80% number to start.


You are just hiding behind terms like gimp and DD without giving any proof of why
Really? because SAM is geared to DD, RDM is not, gimp SAMs are a joke to outparse on any job, so you aren't helping your case in the slightest.



First off if Sam is a DD and because it is a DD it does more damage then a Red Mage the question is how much.
Now we're getting somewhere, and the answer you want to know is, SAM does a lot more DMG than a rdm if geared properly and played correctly.


Multiple parses have backed this ~80% claim and while the example parse posted was...slightly old...I have seen other ones since then that have continued to back the 80% claim.
It does? I'm pretty sure that parse data is faked or has crap DDs with crap gear, where are all of these other parses that support your data, surely you can find these with relative ease and swiftness to back up your alleged claim that RDM can be a viable DD.


The degree which a parse is accuracy can always be questioned, no parse is 100% accurate, but since you refute the 80% number so quickly surely you must have some other piece of evidence to replace it with. If a Rdm can't do 80% of a Sams DD then how much does it do and what evidence do you have to back it up? Surely, you have something to back your claim and it's not just 'a hunch' because Sam is a DD and Rdm is a mage.
I refute it because it's total BS, and it's clear you have 0 understanding of game mechanics, or how DD jobs perform. Truth be told I don't know how a RDM would perform, probably in the 15-20% range if I had to make a logical guess(if that). I can back my claim because I'm not ignorant of how SAM performed at 75 and how RDM DD ability was at 75.



Likewise what do you call gimp? What point does a DD stops being gimp? Because until you can give some form of definition for that you can essentially invalidate any piece of information you receive with the veto of gimp. Hell, the definition might as well be 'if the DD cannot outperform a Rdm by at least 20% then he is gimp'.
Gimp is a crappy DD with crap gear, I'm not saying you need OMG AMAZING SUPREME GEAR, but a decent build, multiple TP/WS set depending on camp etc.


Rearden stated that 99% of the population isn't worth comparing too so is 99% of the population gimp? The term gimp derives from someone being crippled. It infers that a 'gimp' player is one that performs to an inferior standard to the average 'healthy' player. If you consider 1% not worth parsing against then you aren't claiming that that they aren't gimp, but they aren't +2 blue box super saiyan elite. Gimp does not mean anyone that didn't have an Amanomurakumo.
He's saying that since so many players flat out suck, and gear terribly you can't compare yourself to them when you claim to come within 80% of what a SAM does as rdm lol, because fact is you will if they are terribly geared and play like crap.


Believe it or not those ~80% parses were against above average geared players. Sure they weren't perfect in any way or form, but Hagun + Haidates + a respectable store TP set is certainly not gimp.

Let me clear something up for you, Hagun was garbage compared to Tomoe or Levi Course at birdcamp/MJSP/anything not HNM, because penta destroyed everything, any intelligent player would have used polearm in those situations, those who didn't, well i wouldn't consider them all gimp, but if you argued against it you're dumb, and if you choose to play that way that's fine but just know you aren't going to perform as well as a person who used polearm in any of those situations(im not including amano in this at all so dont even bring it up in your argument)


Even if we presented the most concretely solid piece of evidence the world has ever had the pleasure of witnessing you could just as easily 'invalidate' it by just claiming that the player wasn't trying or wasn't skilled.
Prove me wrong then, show me solid evidence and show me the gear you have vs the gear the SAM has.



There is literally nothing we could present that could change your mind. That's fine, we all have our personal beliefs. But could you at least try not to make some of the most ridiculous logical fallacies I've seen on the internet and at least present something that has the semblance of evidence if you are going to claim that other people's points are wrong and yours is right?

Same goes to you.

[Seriha]

I'm totally a BG shark because I call people on their BS right?

Nah, it's more the floundering in their butthurt du jour thread. Woe is FFXI, someone with a different opinion said something. ATTACK!

[Aurara]

The only floundering is people without a logical counter argument to what i'm saying

[Neisan_Quetz]

All I see is a parse of Rdm/Nin versus 2 dds who gain no benefit from subbing Nin.

Oh, and having another Rdm hasting everyone because one of them is too busy 'dd'ing'.

Then I see war/nin using Vorpal Blade with bergressor merits, that's especially confounding... something about outparsed a thf/war not using SA or TA WS? Really.

EDIT: And now I learn he took out the information including Lurkers.

[Rearden]

Just to clarify, you are saying that parse includes a BB MNK, and a SAM/NIN using Gekko against Mamool, correct?

And that the data for Lurkers has been removed?

Also, THF WS/SA/TA have been removed?

WAR using vorpal blade?

SAM subbing crap subjob?

Is that all correct?



And do you see where I'm going?

[Aurara]

They dont care, they are just going to come up with another ad hominem attack against us, and continue with the "RDM melee crusade" no matter how much parse data argues otherwise.

[Thunderlips]

Naked Mnk > Melee RDM (http://killingifrit.com/forums/topic/132294-is-it-possible-to-outdamage-a-melee-rdmnin-nakeduse-weapon/page__st__200__p__2669936#entry2669936)

That's a link to a parse of a MNK with only a weapon beating out a well geared RDM. You can scroll up a bit to see the RDM's gear. The parse is against a Doomed so neither the MNK nor the RDM are getting a weapon type bonus against the mob.

[Aurara]

game over, lol

[Bagel]

It has been over, one side just didn't know it yet, and likely still doesn't.

[Hyrist]

Yeah, I remember that moronic KI parse. I also remember tearing it to shreads.

Also, as stated before, you can call it over, when SE removes RDM's sword and dagger skill form the game.

[cidbahamut]

Wait, didn't you just hold up a parse waving it around shouting "See? This proves it, we did 80% of a SAM's damage!" not two pages ago? And now parses don't count...

[Supersun]

I'm not 'heated' in the slightest actually. I just wrote that in a satirical manor hoping to highlight what's wrong with your arguments (ie. lack of proof, aka. numbers)

It's ridiculous that you and your BG friends are taking a 5 second glance of data that was thoroughly discussed in-depth 3 years ago and completely discrediting it.
(http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=2&mid=1236272136259112900&h=50&p=4#196)

My last post wasn't 'debating' that my side was right over yours.
My last post was telling you to stop using the most blatant logical fallacies I've seen in a while. I mean good gosh, how many times have you appealed to authority instead of actually posting NUMBERS.

I mean you stated 1) You don't know HOW a Rdm would perform, but 2) it would be in the 20% range because you 'know' how Sam performs

That would be what we call a logical fallacy. There is no actual evidence in that statement besides your claim that it is true.

Really, the same thing happened in that thread posted above.


numbers and reason should prevail. if you're posting to help/argue with that, you're posting constructively. if you're posting to Explain To Everyone That You Don't Accept Parses With Japanese Players or Writing, you're just an annoying fucking gnat.

Seriously, you are starting to almost sound as bad as Shadowedge.

[Aurara]

Doesn't count because it doesnt help their side ^_^

[Rearden]

Hyrist can now be confirmed to be a troll.

Guess we should have known that when it was 2011 and he said "Red Mage can melee" but how naive we were...

[Aurara]

My reply wasn't for you :)

[Neisan_Quetz]

the mnk was naked... aka... he was even more gimp

See where this is going?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Since you missed it the first time, the Mnk isn't wearing anything at all.

[Neisan_Quetz]

*Mnk has no tp gear
*Mnk has no ws gear
*Rdm has full tp/ws sets and all you can point out is the offhand in your defense? Just lol.

[Bagel]

.

I wish I had my own satirical manor, with black jack and hookers.

[cidbahamut]

Blind parses don't mean a thing.

I didn't see any TP and WS gearsets being documented in that thread, so I can safely assume everyone was wielding Ash clubs and wearing Summer Festival bikinis so the results don't matter.

edit: in case there was any confusion, I'm referring to the alla thread.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That wasn't his offhand...

I see a blau mainhand, so yes, you're blind.

[Rearden]

Tell me you've got numbers this time though besides that old thread of a Red Mage using a K Club which we have a D skill in...

Or if you'd like, why don't we swap places and you can give the mnk a staff and give a red mage a 1D dagger and see who wins...you'll get similar results.


Uh. I'd be willing to bet MNK.

Willing to be being synonymous with "I'm positive of this fact that I am stating".

[Aurara]

I'm not 'heated' in the slightest actually. I just wrote that in a satirical manor hoping to highlight what's wrong with your arguments (ie. lack of proof, aka. numbers)
I'm pretty sure you're heated and trying to play it off like a tuff guy


It's ridiculous that you and your BG friends are taking a 5 second glance of data that was thoroughly discussed in-depth 3 years ago and completely discrediting it.

Because it holds no water and has various factors removed from it to benefit the RDM at hand



My last post wasn't 'debating' that my side was right over yours.
My last post was telling you to stop using the most blatant logical fallacies I've seen in a while. I mean good gosh, how many times have you appealed to authority instead of actually posting NUMBERS.
Where are your alleged numbers? YOU have yet to post numbers, I have given you a clear reason as to why the #'s you gave were wrong/fake and you refused to listen.


I mean you stated 1) You don't know HOW a Rdm would perform, but 2) it would be in the 20% range because you 'know' how Sam performs
It's quite simple, RDM sucks at DD, SAM does not case closed and moving on.


That would be what we call a logical fallacy. There is no actual evidence in that statement besides your claim that it is true.
No, that's what we call logical thinking

[Hyrist]

No I'm stating that the entirty of that situation was pretty fucked up to begin with.

It's a great example of how horribly a RDM can do when they're not properly geared and not knowing what they're doing for certain. But all that it established was 'how bad' a RDM can do when they half ass things. All it did was prove the 'Zero to Hero' issues that RDM's gear and strategy has.

(Rdm had no enhancing gear, no WS gear, his TP gear consisted of wise feet, O-hat, scorp harness (nq) Miserecorde In short, a Bad RDM got to big for his britches and put in his place.)

And all I had to do was see K club to have to shake my head at it. It's really not a good idea to use K-club.

[Neisan_Quetz]

So we can agree that a half-assed Mnk wearing nothing is better than a half-assed rdm using tp/ws sets, and a well geared Mnk/Any other DD will destroy a well geared Rdm, right?

[cidbahamut]

It's a great example of how horribly a RDM can do when they're not properly geared and not knowing what they're doing for certain. But all that it established was 'how bad' a RDM can do when they half ass things.
Same could be said of DDs.

[Aurara]

No I'm stating that the entirty of that situation was pretty fucked up to begin with.

I know, the monk didn't even get black belt and had 0 haste gear ><


It's a great example of how horribly a RDM can get crushed by a naked monk

You are correct!


And all I had to do was see K club to have to shake my head at it. It's really not a good idea to use K-club.
Lol, ITT sushi sucks and RDM can't use sushi and KC sucks

[Supersun]

Doesn't count because the Rdm was using a club...

aka...He was gimp

See where I'm going with this?

------

Tell me you've got numbers this time though besides that old thread of a Red Mage using a K Club which we have a D skill in...

Or if you'd like, why don't we swap places and you can give the mnk a staff and give a red mage a 1D dagger and see who wins...you'll get similar results.

------


Since you missed it the first time, the Mnk isn't wearing anything at all.

Vs a Rdm using a club...wow...amazing

-----


*Mnk has no tp gear
*Mnk has no ws gear
*Rdm has full tp/ws sets and all you can point out is the offhand in your defense? Just lol.

That wasn't his offhand...
------


I see a blau mainhand, so yes, you're blind.

Not in the picture above.


Where are your alleged numbers? YOU have yet to post numbers, I have given you a clear reason as to why the #'s you gave were wrong/fake and you refused to listen.

It's quite simple, RDM sucks at DD, SAM does not case closed and moving on.

Do you really not understand what a logical fallacy is? You have given NO reason that those numbers were fake besides either 1) You say so, 2) your BG friends say so, or 3) Because Sam is a DD.

That is not logic OR reason, that is your personal opinion being treated as a fact.

Edit: I compiled my last couple of posts here so I could delete the others to save space.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I see 2 pictures of gear, and one of him /nin with blau main hand, so yes, you are blind still.

[Aurara]

Do you really not understand what a logical fallacy is? You have given NO reason that those numbers were fake besides either 1) You say so, 2) your BG friends say so, or 3) Because Sam is a DD.

That is not logic OR reason, that is your personal opinion being treated as a fact.

Are you so desperate to be right? I mean come on, we found out that data was removed from the parse, as well as a rdm melee doing that well at MJSP is absolutely ridiculous if you've ever partied there(doubt that you have but hey i could be wrong!)

[Hyrist]

Same could be said of DDs.
True, it works both ways for both jobs types.

But even with Blau, RDM was doing it wrong, downright backwards. Enspells counted for about 10% of DPS when properly boosted Weapon Skills, about 30%, depending on how well geared the WS set was. Which means RDM walked out of town with the wrong idea how to do things, not uncommon.

It would be like if a naked monk faced off against a k club warrior, just the club, full timing defender and no gear but his his out of date AH TP set.

Funny, yes. And an embarassment to be sure, but it diddn't prove anything except that DD jobs are less gear dependant against low defence T mobs. Well, that and K club RDM is a huge no no on anything but elementals.

[cidbahamut]

Not in the picture above.

Look again. You're either blind, or intentionally ignoring what is plain for all to see.


Do you really not understand what a logical fallacy is? You have given NO reason that those numbers were fake besides either 1) You say so, 2) your BG friends say so, or 3) Because Sam is a DD.

That is not logic OR reason, that is your personal opinion being treated as a fact.
How about inadequate testing environment documentation? I saw no gearsets listed for that alla parse, so until I see otherwise I'm assuming everyone was wielding ash clubs and wearing bikinis. That's not exactly compelling evidence for your case.

[Aurara]

KC rdm sucks? really?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3XfsPLAr3A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SVTgPVF4_s&feature=related

[Rearden]

So instead of arguing what we were before (A RDM can do 80% of a GREAT DD in a merit party) we're now arguing that a RDM can out DD a naked MNK?

safefacegranite.jpg

[Supersun]

In 2006, yes, Rdm KC sucked on anything more then a decent challenge. No amount of accuracy and sushi in the world is going to get that D rated weapon to land on even trash mobs

[Aurara]

Seems like it!

[Aurara]

In 2006, yes, Rdm KC sucked on anything more then a decent challenge. No amount of accuracy and sushi in the world is going to get that D rated weapon to land on even trash mobs

Actually sushi and acc gear would so you're wrong again sir.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Assuming 75 rdm/rng capped club with no merits+sushi, the gear shown in pic, he would have had at least... 82% accuracy assuming a T mob with 330 evasion. Of course, I have no clue what evasion Jnun has.

[Hyrist]

KC rdm sucks? really?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3XfsPLAr3A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SVTgPVF4_s&feature=related

Yes, it sucks. Abyssea might break the mechaics, due to how crap broken Abyssea is. But the Attercotts are a miserable refrence for 75. Try hitting anything above T with that tactic 75. I have. Wif wif wif wif wif wif wif wif.

Still, it'd be fun to see how Kittycatty measures up against Zafire, though.

Out of courosity Aurara, what atmas was Kitty using?

[Aurara]

Yes, it sucks. Abyssea might break the mechaics, due to how crap broken Abyssea is. But the Attercotts are a miserable refrence for 75. Try hitting anything above T with that tactic 75. I have. Wif wif wif wif wif wif wif wif.

Still, it'd be fun to see how Kittycatty measures up against Zafire, though.

Out of courosity Aurara, what atmas was Kitty using?

I have no idea, i searchrd RDM KC and those came up. Your gear obviously is terrible because my rdm at 75 could have melee gear good enough to have decent acc with KC.

[Supersun]

Actually sushi and acc gear would so you're wrong again sir.

Maybe against that easy prey spider in that video, but against an actual exp monster (which is what I meant by trash mob)

Against Greater Colibri I calculate that a Rdm/Rng would be landing the KClub at ~70% rate eating sushi and wearing accuracy gear (with ~15% haste from gear).

Not as bad as I thought but still not going to beat Blau/Joy at the time. Not even close. Biggest deal breaker is going to be the lack of attack making the TP phase virtually worthless

[Aurara]

Maybe against that easy prey spider in that video, but against an actual exp monster (which is what I meant by trash mob)

Against Greater Colibri I calculate that a Rdm/Rng would be landing the KClub at ~70% rate eating sushi and wearing accuracy gear (with ~15% haste from gear).

Not as bad as I though but still not going to beat Blu/Joy at the time. Not even close. Biggest deal breaker is going to be the lack of attack making the TP phase virtually worthless

And blau/joytoy wont come close to SAM lol

[Neisan_Quetz]

GC are IT with evasion bonus, Jnun used in that parse are T. Regardless, it just gets worse if you start picking stronger mobs.

To Aurora: piercing bonus vs hagun sam remember?

[Aurara]

GC are IT with evasion bonus, Jnun used in that parse are T. Regardless, it just gets worse if you start picking stronger mobs.

To Aurora: piercing bonus vs hagun sam remember?

D'OH HOW COULD I FORGET ><

[Doombringer]

wow.. this thread gets derailed like what? once a week. i don't get it really... we're ALL here because we agree that rdm melee atm is sad and depressing and bad....

the argument here shouldn't be what red mage can do.. it's more like what to do about red mage...

really... it's gettin' old having this same argument every few pages...

fairly simple. rdm melee, change it? yes/no? is yes, how? if no, then... that's it.. done.


i don't think anybody is gonna convince anybody of anything at this point when talking about the past or the present. stop beating your teams respective dead horse..

[Hyrist]

I have no idea, i searchrd RDM KC and those came up. Your gear obviously is terrible because my rdm at 75 could have melee gear good enough to have decent acc with KC.

Was referring more to Range ACC and Sidewinder, and how Sidewinder is Penalized when RDM has a native D rating in Archery.

Plenty of Range Accuracy Gear available to equip, mind you. (+160 at 75 iirc) But you praticaly have to full on R.Acc to get decent land rates, which takes away from your modifiers.

Abyssea bypasses this due to Bonus Stats and Atmas.

Which is why I asked what Atmas.

[Hyrist]

Forgetting the parses against Mamool Ja, or did that just slip your mind too?

[Aurara]

Forgetting the parses against Mamool Ja, or did that just slip your mind too?

You mean the parse that was tampered with and had SA/TA from thf/war removed, and lurker data taken out of it?

[Khiinroye]

Naked mnk parses: The rdm had 91.78% accuracy in one of the parses, and 89.57% accuracy in the other. Accuracy from kclub was not a problem in the parse.

[Hyrist]

Do you have a Blau/Joy parse at 75 to say that his damage/accuracy ratings are tampered with?

This guilty until proven innocent thing is wearing really thin.


Naked mnk parses: The rdm had 91.78% accuracy in one of the parses, and 89.57% accuracy in the other. Accuracy from kclub was not a problem in the parse.

Yes, actually, it was. He's hemmoraging his main hand accuracy to make up for a D rated weapon. He should have never been eating sushi on a T mob.

[Neisan_Quetz]

He admitted he removed all data involving lurkers so yes it was tampered with from the start.

No food in the game was going to make him double his damage anyway.