On Red Mage melee... [Archive] - Page 2

Eeek

05-25-2011, 04:33 AM

Sorry you don't know how useful strategems are? Tier V nukes are still Tier V nukes. I guess you just don't value classes that aren't the best at something so that you can fit it into your minimalist LS designs.

Once again, not the real would, your analogy is crap. Please realize you are playing a game and that people play them to have fun, not do what you think they should. Your mentality is unattractive at best.

Oh please. You're no more capable of understanding the workings of a simplistic, fantasy world than the drastically more complicated real world. You know why? You're incapable of rational, logical thought. All it takes to understand the futility of melee RDM is a grasp of basic algebra.

Also, I'm sorry you don't understand what makes BLM significantly more useful than SCH these days. Tier5 nukes and strategems make SCH useful? Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

Also, it's nice of you conveniently ignore, repeatedly, my stance that people should, and I quote, "you're free to do what you want solo or with your friends (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/294-On-Red-Mage-melee...?p=105260#post105260)." If you want to melee all the time, knock yourself out. Have fun!

But be aware that lots of people like me exist who won't tolerate such foolishness in a goal-oriented, group setting, and I love it when people give me a good, rational reason to kick them from my party, alliance, or linkshell. For example, I don't care what you do on your own time solo or with friends, but you're not going to melee Proto-Ultima or Briareus.

Wanna know what I find unattractive? Overly-emotional and dimwitted people who rant without thinking. Your mentality is flimsy and transparent to everyone with a critical eye.

Daniel_Hatcher

05-25-2011, 06:05 AM

Oh please. You're no more capable of understanding the workings of a simplistic, fantasy world than the drastically more complicated real world. You know why? You're incapable of rational, logical thought. All it takes to understand the futility of melee RDM is a grasp of basic algebra.

Also, I'm sorry you don't understand what makes BLM significantly more useful than SCH these days. Tier5 nukes and strategems make SCH useful? Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

Also, it's nice of you conveniently ignore, repeatedly, my stance that people should, and I quote, "you're free to do what you want solo or with your friends (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/294-On-Red-Mage-melee...?p=105260#post105260)." If you want to melee all the time, knock yourself out. Have fun!

But be aware that lots of people like me exist who won't tolerate such foolishness in a goal-oriented, group setting, and I love it when people give me a good, rational reason to kick them from my party, alliance, or linkshell. For example, I don't care what you do on your own time solo or with friends, but you're not going to melee Proto-Ultima or Briareus.

Wanna know what I find unattractive? Overly-emotional and dimwitted people who rant without thinking. Your mentality is flimsy and transparent to everyone with a critical eye.

Do you feel good now?

2 points...

1. SCH is still superior in DMG then BLM unless their EA kicks in.
2. Ha, like Proto-Ultima is hard... LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Doombringer

05-25-2011, 08:01 AM

Oh please. You're no more capable of understanding the workings of a simplistic, fantasy world than the drastically more complicated real world. You know why? You're incapable of rational, logical thought. All it takes to understand the futility of melee RDM is a grasp of basic algebra.

Also, I'm sorry you don't understand what makes BLM significantly more useful than SCH these days. Tier5 nukes and strategems make SCH useful? Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

Also, it's nice of you conveniently ignore, repeatedly, my stance that people should, and I quote, "you're free to do what you want solo or with your friends (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/294-On-Red-Mage-melee...?p=105260#post105260)." If you want to melee all the time, knock yourself out. Have fun!

But be aware that lots of people like me exist who won't tolerate such foolishness in a goal-oriented, group setting, and I love it when people give me a good, rational reason to kick them from my party, alliance, or linkshell. For example, I don't care what you do on your own time solo or with friends, but you're not going to melee Proto-Ultima or Briareus.

Wanna know what I find unattractive? Overly-emotional and dimwitted people who rant without thinking. Your mentality is flimsy and transparent to everyone with a critical eye.

you realize we're here talking about how to FIX rdm, right? not here talking about what rdm should be doing RIGHT now....

we're not talking about meleeing.. as is.. we're talking about what se should do to MAKE it viable..

so.. you can go have your conversation somewhere else.. atm you're just trolling this thread with the same "rdm no meree" bs everybody has heard before.

Duelle

05-25-2011, 08:28 AM

Also, it's nice of you conveniently ignore, repeatedly, my stance that people should, and I quote, you're free to do what you want solo or with your friends." If you want to melee all the time, knock yourself out. Have fun!Solo is meaningless in a game built from the ground up on partying. Try again.

PS: Better yet, go away and stop trolling our Red Mage melee discussion.

Seyrena

05-25-2011, 08:55 PM

Hurp derp derp durp derp derp derp derp derp etc, shortened to take up less space, derp derp no fun allowed in srs bizness groups, derp derp hurp derp.Aww. Looks like someone with a differing opinion struck a nerve.

Here's a mentality that's not so flimsy or transparent: At this point, I'm willing to venture that you're missing the point of this thread entirely. We don't grasp the futility of Red Mage melee? That futility is precisely why this thread exists. Red Mage has come to be expected to perform a role that we didn't envision when we chose it all those years ago, before the level cap raises, before Abyssea, etc. The point of this thread, as has been said previously, is not about whining that people think we're just another back-line, thumb-twiddling mage job, it's about fixing it so we're not.

I want to say you're trolling, but I can't help but laugh even harder when I realize you actually believe what you're saying. You go have your fun.

I'll go have mine.

Duzell

05-26-2011, 06:21 AM

ManaKing

05-26-2011, 09:21 AM

Calmanic Trousers were definatly a step in the right direction for rdm melee gear (even if they are ugly in my opinion), if we can get good gear like that for all our armor slots it would move up rdm melee along way. And maybe enspell III that functions like enlight and endark where you start at high damage and it degrades that also works on offhand hits. As it is unless your offhanding a weapon with a very benifical effect like Sagasinger its better to use teir 1 enspells than T2.

Yeah i wish there weren't super expensive, but they are. Oh well, back to farming. I could get a group together for them; but honestly, who is going to give them to a RDM over taking them to the AH? We aren't near the top of the list, so obviously we don't deserve them.

Also, thank you everyone for realizing what this thread is actually about and being an actual RDM. It's nice not to have to defend myself against every troll that doesn't realize this is about what we would like to happen as opposed to what is the current state of the game. I'm pretty sure we are all very painfully aware of how bad RDM melee is compared to other jobs.

Doombringer

05-26-2011, 09:58 AM

could always do your orb your drop. at that point it's none of there business if you're gonna sell it or wear it.

supposedly the droprate is pretty high.

Supersun

05-26-2011, 11:25 AM

And maybe enspell III that functions like enlight and endark where you start at high damage and it degrades that also works on offhand hits.

The only issue with that is Rdm would probably degrade the damage in under 1-2 mins with our dual wielding with OaTs giving us another spell we have to now spam and completely defeating the point of composure.

Doombringer

05-26-2011, 11:36 AM

i dunno why they can't just get rid of the restrictions on enspell2.. remove the charge-up time, let it proc on all swings, and make it calculate dmg like enspell1. whats the problem? will kraken club suddenly be worth half what people pay for it to an rdm? oh no?!?

HFX7686

05-26-2011, 01:56 PM

ManaKing

05-26-2011, 02:39 PM

I don't think improving RDM melee would do much for RDM. Any amount of improvement to melee to put it on par with the regular melee jobs would vastly overpower the job to a point of ridiculousness. So there's no real point in improving it a little bit, since it won't ever come close to regular melee anyway.

Personally, I'd like to see improvements in RDM magic done, to make them useful in Abyssea. There was a time when the RDM was king in terms of healing, enhancing, enfeebling, and crowd control. Now a WHM can cover that quite easily in Abyssea, plus has a much larger curing arsenal available. There's pretty much no point in taking a RDM to Abyssea events now, which is a real shame.

You mean if RDMs could do anything actually desirable? Yeah, that's why we are here as well.

You want magic, we want melee.

Compare RDM to BLU, which one is overpowered and accepted? Which one is underpowered and neglected? This isn't a PvP game, overpowered classes don't break the game mold. So long as everyone is useful, everything is good. I don't want BLU or any other class nerfed. I just want RDM to be desirable in a party environment because that is what is important in this game.

If you can find some way for RDM to be desirable in a party that doesn't involve putting BLM or WHM out of a job, we are all ears. I know melee RDM are very diehard and hot headed, but that is because we want RDM to be its own class. We don't want to take anybody else's class away from them because we all know what that feels like. We just want to play in the sandbox with the rest of the kids and have just as much fun as they do.

HFX7686

05-26-2011, 03:03 PM

You mean if RDMs could do anything actually desirable? Yeah, that's why we are here as well.

You want magic, we want melee.

Compare RDM to BLU, which one is overpowered and accepted? Which one is underpowered and neglected? This isn't a PvP game, overpowered classes don't break the game mold. So long as everyone is useful, everything is good. I don't want BLU or any other class nerfed. I just want RDM to be desirable in a party environment because that is what is important in this game.

If you can find some way for RDM to be desirable in a party that doesn't involve putting BLM or WHM out of a job, we are all ears. I know melee RDM are very diehard and hot headed, but that is because we want RDM to be its own class. We don't want to take anybody else's class away from them because we all know what that feels like. We just want to play in the sandbox with the rest of the kids and have just as much fun as they do.

RDM won't become a desired job if they get buffed in melee because they'll never match traditional melee for damage output. If they did, the overpowering wouldn't be because of PvP but because they'd just solo everything and everything (much faster than before and therefore become a bandwagon job). Soloing everything and everything hardly improves party/alliance standing.

BLU are strong because of their magic, not because of their straight melee damage (although I'd hate to see super weak melee from a BLU). I always, however, invite BLUs along for their special spells: stunning, back up curing, skillchains, magic damage, and their ability to proc multiple staggers.

Personally, I'd like to see RDM enfeebling and crowd control get the buff, not the melee. I always found enfeebling fascinating and it's a shame what SE did to enfeebling magic over the years.

Seriha

05-26-2011, 03:31 PM

HFX7686

05-26-2011, 03:43 PM

Said buffs can happen involving melee, though. Really, RDMs aren't asking to match the other DDs (more damage helps as an immediate eye opener, sure), just a purpose to swing that doesn't involve playing alone or getting everyone else around you angry. Otherwise, there's no point in the job having Sword, Dagger, or Club skills and it doesn't exactly address the looming homogenization with SCH who, martially, would be Club, Staff, and Dagger.

Well, then you'll have the traditional issue of giving mobs TP, which can still sometimes cause problems, especially when you're trying to stagger in Abyssea.

There's no real point for BLMs to have staff and club skill , and yet they do.

I personally see meleeing RDMs as a homogenization towards the melee. Melee gear with melee stats looking like all the other melee but not putting out anything approaching similar damage.

Seriha

05-26-2011, 03:56 PM

And if all you'll be doing is judging by damage, then sure, it'll forever fail. Yet, if every subsequent Enstone hit boosted Slow potency? RDM crits actually reduced a mob's TP? My biggest gripe over time with people who believe melee updates should never happen come from those who ultimately refuse to consider possibilities to make it work. Nothing should ever be considered set in stone, especially with the game in its transition state from 75 to 99.

Meanwhile, the RDM of yesteryear wasn't really its own entity given the healing preference people lobbied upon it. People damning the job's future for that or solos SE could easily squish if they wished are among my follow-up gripes about the job. It's possible for RDM to be unique still, with or without melee. Obviously, some of us would favor the "with" aspect, but the without could be good if SE does it right.

Supersun

05-26-2011, 04:12 PM

HFX7686

05-26-2011, 05:00 PM

There can be more to melee then just damage.

I mean look at dancer. You sure as hell don't invite them for their warrior crushing DPS.

Now I'm not saying copy what dancers have, but support from melee isn't anything new on Rdm.

Look at our Enspell T2s. They support by lowering enemy resistance.
(ignoring the fact that -10 resistance is pretty pathetic overall especially when ninjitsu reduces it by -30)
(and the flood of other issues with T2 enspells)

The problem with only focusing on our magic side is that there's really only one way to grow without invading into other jobs space - Enfeebling.

Even then Enfeebling by nature is not a full time job. Imo the best direction to focus on with Rdm is Enfeebles that actually do a damn and are more then just 5% better then a Whms and Melee when all the enfeebles are on.

Basically what imo Ninja was supposed to be before it became a Tank/DD.
Certainly that role has opened up.

I just don't invite dancers. Right now my party make up is: WHM BRD MNK MNK THF BLU, and in a second party all by himself: BLM. The MNKs and THF sometimes rearrange jobs to WAR, NIN, THF. Where am I going to fit a melee RDM in that?

I don't think there's a way to buff en-spells enough to make it worth RDMs meleeing. Either the melee and damage mages don't have problems or you don't want the RDM in close range of the mob or giving it TP.

I still think enfeebling, especially crowd control, should be the focus. It takes skill and knowledge for a single rdm to be able to handle a large group of mobs without a blm back-up sleepgaing. I think a rdm keeping a bunch of mobs in hand would be much more stylish than meleeing.

Supersun

05-26-2011, 05:47 PM

Right now my party make up is: WHM BRD MNK MNK THF BLU, and in a second party all by himself: BLM.

...

If that's your set-up the only way Rdm would ever be useful to you is if he could proc well.

And given that SE has said they have no immediate plans to add more abyssea related content and that the procing systems in newer endgame content is different then abyssea people may start to realize that the current mentality of what's a powerful job is pretty much soley hinged on how well it can proc.

In fact, in dynamis at least, hybrid jobs are MUCH more valuable then specialist jobs when trying to farm currency and NM pops.

People have already started finding out that trying to approach newer content like you would abyssea content where you have a Mnk tank and a Whm curebomb just doesn't work.

SO yeah, when discussing future balance you are going to have to remove your notions of what's useful in abyssea and look at the merits of the job itself as opposed to how well it can proc or TH.

Seriha

05-26-2011, 07:02 PM

Considering actual crowd situations are fairly rare for common play, doubly so now with Dynamis being different, forcing RDMs to rely on a spell from a subjob just to be useful seems kind of, I dunno, wrong? There's nothing particularly elegant about using Sleepga, and having a BLM around for Sleepga II is obviously more beneficial for overlapping purposes without mobs having that brief period of waking and all the risks that entails if it's just a RDM using Sleepga. Sure, you might get a resist now and then and stragglers would get slept with the single-targets, but calling that difficult or elegant just seems... off. And compared to BLU, who has AoE slow, blind, gravity, some conal paralyze, and other goodies, they seem much more like the control go-to guys for diversity, with SCH being runner up with Manifestation Grav/Bind/Stun.

Daniel_Hatcher

05-26-2011, 09:21 PM

I just don't invite dancers. Right now my party make up is: WHM BRD MNK MNK THF BLU, and in a second party all by himself: BLM. The MNKs and THF sometimes rearrange jobs to WAR, NIN, THF. Where am I going to fit a melee RDM in that?

I don't think there's a way to buff en-spells enough to make it worth RDMs meleeing. Either the melee and damage mages don't have problems or you don't want the RDM in close range of the mob or giving it TP.

I still think enfeebling, especially crowd control, should be the focus. It takes skill and knowledge for a single rdm to be able to handle a large group of mobs without a blm back-up sleepgaing. I think a rdm keeping a bunch of mobs in hand would be much more stylish than meleeing.

You are aware that RDM's enfeebling spells are on par with NIN's if the RDM puts 5 merits in it right? So even doing the enfeebling rule of RDM they still absolutely suck at it.

Crowd control is rare and certainly should not be the only focus of a RDM. As it stands RDM has nothing it can do in a party, so as far as this game is going they need to fix that, or remove the job.

Seyrena

05-26-2011, 11:46 PM

I personally always saw RDM as the master of both Enfeeblement AND Enhancement. I agree that melee only needs small changes to make it acceptable, but when looking at RDM's role as an enfeebler, we should also consider the enhancement role as well. Specifically, where are the gain-ras, or other buff spells that could help an entire party and make RDM relevant once again without changing the dynamics of other classes? After all, RDM has the highest (initial) Enhancing Magic skill too.

Duelle

05-27-2011, 01:08 AM

Specifically, where are the gain-ras, or other buff spells that could help an entire party and make RDM relevant once again without changing the dynamics of other classes? After all, RDM has the highest (initial) Enhancing Magic skill too.Sorry, but I am 100% against further encouraging buff-botting. It's an archaic niche that has been done away with in modern design for good reason.

Karbuncle

05-27-2011, 01:26 AM

You are aware that RDM's enfeebling spells are on par with NIN's if the RDM puts 5 merits in it right? So even doing the enfeebling rule of RDM they still absolutely suck at it.

Crowd control is rare and certainly should not be the only focus of a RDM. As it stands RDM has nothing it can do in a party, so as far as this game is going they need to fix that, or remove the job.

Thats a steaming load.

Slow II, Paralyze II , are much more powerful than Hojo: Ni, Kurayami: Ni. Perhaps if you don't cap MND v Enemy MND, you may be on to something, But with 5/5 Merits and capped potency via MND vs Enemies MND, They are far ahead. Its a noticeable difference.

(Blind II I believe is the exception)

HFX7686

05-27-2011, 02:05 AM

...

If that's your set-up the only way Rdm would ever be useful to you is if he could proc well.

And given that SE has said they have no immediate plans to add more abyssea related content and that the procing systems in newer endgame content is different then abyssea people may start to realize that the current mentality of what's a powerful job is pretty much soley hinged on how well it can proc.

In fact, in dynamis at least, hybrid jobs are MUCH more valuable then specialist jobs when trying to farm currency and NM pops.

People have already started finding out that trying to approach newer content like you would abyssea content where you have a Mnk tank and a Whm curebomb just doesn't work.

SO yeah, when discussing future balance you are going to have to remove your notions of what's useful in abyssea and look at the merits of the job itself as opposed to how well it can proc or TH.

You misunderstand. WHM BRD MNK MNK THF BLU, BLM is the party set up we use for everything, regardless of being in Abyssea or not. This has been our set up for a couple of years now. It's a very solid set up for pretty much every event in the game. I could change the BRD to a RDM but my MNKs would scream bloody murder for losing their Marches. I could add a RDM to the BLM party but I'm not sure what the RDM would be doing cross party since Enhancing doesn't cast cross party.

You are aware that RDM's enfeebling spells are on par with NIN's if the RDM puts 5 merits in it right? So even doing the enfeebling rule of RDM they still absolutely suck at it.

Crowd control is rare and certainly should not be the only focus of a RDM. As it stands RDM has nothing it can do in a party, so as far as this game is going they need to fix that, or remove the job.

It this is true (and I suspect that it is not quite true sadly) then you present an excellent argument for why enfeebling magic really needs to be buffed.

Crowd control isn't that rare. My group generally has 4-5 mobs going at the same time. We like to be efficient.

I forgot about Enhancing magic. That's another place RDM could be buffed as well, to surpass SCH and WHM. I'd like that.

Aleste

05-27-2011, 03:37 AM

Neisan_Quetz

05-27-2011, 04:16 AM

+ Af3 feet + 5/5 Set bonus.

Daniel_Hatcher

05-27-2011, 04:20 AM

Someone mentioned gain-ra's. They're called Boost- spells and they belong to whitemage.

I had always pegged redmage as the single target enhancer, with whitemage being the AOE enhancer, which when looking at their native spell listing makes sense.

Interesting math: WHM/SCH with light arts and gear has a higher enhancing magic skill than RDM with gear. Although the skill difference is minor (~8 skill), rdm's enhancements will last longer due to their af3 cape.

6 to be exact, unless you get equipment with the augment "Enhancing Magic Skill" that said, RDM EA+2 gives an increase of ~92.5% duration (why they couldn't just make it 100% I don't know) under composure, so it's a massive pity they gain very little enhancing spells for the party.

Brytor

05-27-2011, 04:29 AM

Personally I can not see how anyone has enough room to carry the gear to do your main job as a RDM and still have room to carry Melee gear. Granted I've not played RDM a lot since getting +2 items but before I was at 76/80 before and not even carrying all the gear I wanted. Adding good TP and CdC sets on top of that would be another 23-30 items to carry.

wish12oz

05-27-2011, 04:32 AM

All I have to say is RDM melee is about as useful as a screen door on submarine. And beyond that, it is perceived by the community as being terrible and something only bad RDMs do. Don't get me wrong, you're all free to do as you please, but don't expect any good group to allow you to melee, and don't expect to be in any top tier LS.

But really, why not just level another job? BLU is allowed to melee and gets to cast, go play that, or DRK, same thing. Except casting is looked down upon for DRK, since it lowers your damage a lot.

Supersun

05-27-2011, 04:50 AM

You are aware that RDM's enfeebling spells are on par with NIN's if the RDM puts 5 merits in it right? So even doing the enfeebling rule of RDM they still absolutely suck at it.

Blind II is more or less the same as Kurayami: Ni both being around -30 eva

Paralyze and Jubaku are well...hard to test.

Hojo: Ni is 18% and Slow II uncapped is 35%. That's quite a big difference.

Now what ISN'T a big difference is the between Whm and Rdm because the ORIGINAL Slow caps at 30% all by itself, and I'd venture that the other T2 enfeebles don't stray too far from that.

And with Whm supposedly scheduled to get Addle soon the only significant difference between Rdm and Whm enfeebling is Saboteur and the accuracy which I would imagine that Whm probably has enough accuracy land their enfeebles anyway.

But then again given that our current enfeebles do virtually nothing to hinder monster TP attacks (Ninja can actually reduce Monster TP attacks by quite a bit which in that respect they are a better enfeebler) it's hard to justify enfeebling as a needed role in any situation until we actually get enfeebles that mean more then "the spell you cast so your DDs don't have to concentrate as hard with their shadows"

I personally always saw RDM as the master of both Enfeeblement AND Enhancement. I agree that melee only needs small changes to make it acceptable, but when looking at RDM's role as an enfeebler, we should also consider the enhancement role as well. Specifically, where are the gain-ras, or other buff spells that could help an entire party and make RDM relevant once again without changing the dynamics of other classes? After all, RDM has the highest (initial) Enhancing Magic skill too.

SE seems to be trying to make Scholar the new magic party enhancer with a LOT of their new spells being enhancements.

(Obviously ignoring the fact that a lot of their new enhancement spells have been rather subpar and not worth the gem to AoE, but I'd imagine it's only time till they actually make a few spells worth using)

Red Mage on the other hand thematically is a terrible enhancer.

We only have 4 spells that we can cast on other people.

Protect and Shell which nearly everyone gets.
and...
Refresh and Haste

Really our only enhancement spell that is unique that we can cast on other people is Refresh II and even that's not that great. Sure we can give someone 6 MP/tick with it, but since it can't stack with Refresh 1 other jobs are vastly superior at it being able to combine between the Refresh 1 and other alternatives to receive close to 10 MP/tick.

And the only reason we were considered an OMG AMAZING ENHANCER was because we had haste as well.

It's hard to call Rdm an enhancing job when these are the only party casting enhancements he has. Especially when considering that the other 99% of Rdm enhancing spells are self target.

Sure, they could do something drastic like make Haste II and ONLY give it to Rdm and that certainly would earn it it's own spot, but the day they do that is the day I will drop Rdm and XI. Cycling single target buffs is NOT a fun way to play the game. It's just a hassle. Just like CC leave that role to the jobs that actually receive AoE spells.

Really, if you are looking for Rdm to return to the ToA days don't count on it. Whm is what Rdm was then and more and I don't suspect or WANT Rdm to find itself in that situation again.

All I have to say is RDM melee is about as useful as a screen door on submarine. And beyond that, it is perceived by the community as being terrible and something only bad RDMs do. Don't get me wrong, you're all free to do as you please, but don't expect any good group to allow you to melee, and don't expect to be in any top tier LS..

Well of course it is. WHITE MAGES are better at melee then a Red Mage. This is why we are you know, SUGGESTING ideas to SE? Just because Rdm is atrocious at melee now doesn't mean it has to be on the way to 99.

I mean look at Bst pre 75 and look at them now. They are a surprisingly versatile job now.
(Ignoring that the proc like shit obviously)

And really, Rdm is in a tricky spot. The mage homogenization train wreck looms on the horizon at 99 and Rdm has very few ways to grow without flat out copying another job. Really, all we have is enfeebling, types of underused melee, and generalization.

If you can think of some other way for Rdm to grow I'm all ears, but just running through the door shouting that 'Rdm melee is impossible and no one will want it' doesn't help and is short sighted.

Just because you think it's impossible for Rdm to receive a buff that will let them melee doesn't mean a million solutions don't exist.

Certainly if Rdm received a powerful utility in addition to their melee it would certainly have a place.

Daniel_Hatcher

05-27-2011, 05:10 AM

Well of course it is. WHITE MAGES are better at melee then a Red Mage. This is why we are you know, SUGGESTING ideas to SE? Just because Rdm is atrocious at melee now doesn't mean it has to be on the way to 99.

I mean look at Bst pre 75 and look at them now. They are a surprisingly versatile job now.
(Ignoring that the proc like shit obviously)

And really, Rdm is in a tricky spot. The mage homogenization train wreck looms on the horizon at 99 and Rdm has very few ways to grow without flat out copying another job. Really, all we have is enfeebling, types of underused melee, and generalization.

If you can think of some other way for Rdm to grow I'm all ears, but just running through the door shouting that 'Rdm melee is impossible and no one will want it' doesn't help and is short sighted.

Just because you think it's impossible for Rdm to receive a buff that will let them melee doesn't mean a million solutions don't exist.

Certainly if Rdm received a powerful utility in addition to their melee it would certainly have a place.

Quoting for truth, and maybe so people can realise this thread is about improving their Melee, which is necessary as it's ATROCIOUS now. This thread would not exist if it was great so telling us it's bad is DUMB when we already know this.

Seyrena

05-27-2011, 05:14 AM

Really, if you are looking for Rdm to return to the ToA days don't count on it. Whm is what Rdm was then and more and I don't suspect or WANT Rdm to find itself in that situation again. I should inform you that this is nothing like what I experienced back during ToA. Perhaps it was because of my static party makeup, but I rarely ever had to heal unless things went bad. My only gripe was the single target buffs. I'm with you; I hate having to cycle single target buff spells, and that's exactly what I was saying in my initial post. And remember that I wasn't suggesting that anyone forget about enfeeble or melee relevance as issues for red mages to be concerned about, I'm just trying to look at the whole picture and take whatever improvements I can because as I understand, we're next to gone out there. :(

Duelle

05-27-2011, 05:46 AM

All I have to say is RDM melee is about as useful as a screen door on submarine. And beyond that, it is perceived by the community as being terrible and something only bad RDMs do.So you're thus in favor of improving Red Mage melee in order to make it useful to a party?
Quoting for truth, and maybe so people can realise this thread is about improving their Melee, which is necessary as it's ATROCIOUS now. This thread would not exist if it was great so telling us it's bad is DUMB when we already know this.Quoted the quoted for truth for truth.

Doombringer

05-27-2011, 05:47 AM

it seems like somebody pops in with this every few pages.. having read the thread title and nothing else....

Supersun

05-27-2011, 05:56 AM

it seems like somebody pops in with this every few pages.. having read the thread title and nothing else....

As long as SE doesn't do the same we should be fine XD

Though I do pity whoever has to wade through all these posts.

Duelle

05-27-2011, 05:58 AM

As long as SE doesn't do the same we should be fine XD

Though I do pity whoever has to wade through all these posts.Out of the tons of suggestions in this thread alone, something is bound to stick...well, provided the developers are indeed reading this.

Seyrena

05-27-2011, 06:17 AM

it seems like somebody pops in with this every few pages.. having read the thread title and nothing else.... Isn't that the truth. At least take some time to figure out what we're talking about here, people!

Out of the tons of suggestions in this thread alone, something is bound to stick...well, provided the developers are indeed reading this. Shall I perform the summoning ritu--
The mage homogenization train wreck looms on the horizonOh. Uh-oh... >< I said nothing!

Carth

05-27-2011, 08:03 AM

Personally, I'd like to see improvements in RDM magic done, to make them useful in Abyssea. There was a time when the RDM was king in terms of healing, enhancing, enfeebling, and crowd control. Now a WHM can cover that quite easily in Abyssea, plus has a much larger curing arsenal available. There's pretty much no point in taking a RDM to Abyssea events now, which is a real shame.
So it's overpowering to get buffed physically, but not overpowering to get buffed in healing, enhancing, enfeebling, and crowd control to the point where we're "kings" of all those aspects?

It goes both ways. Not that I care about melee with event groups myself but it's quite hypocritical to say such a thing, and many players tend to ignore this.

ManaKing

05-27-2011, 08:27 AM

I'm going to use BOLD and use short statements so that people don't misinterpret what I say.

WE KNOW RDM MELEE SUCKS.

WHEN WE SAY THAT WE WANT MELEE BUFFS, WE MEAN THAT WE WANT BUFFS TO OUR ENHANCING MAGIC. THAT WAY WE CAN DEAL MAGICAL DAMAGE, ON HIT IN MELEE RANGE AND PROVIDE USEFUL EFFECTS FOR OUR PARTY.

WE KNOW OUR CLASS ISN'T GOOD AT DOING THINGS THAT ARE DESIRED BY A HIGH LEVEL LS.

WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO DO THINGS THAT ARE USEFUL FOR OTHER PEOPLE, AS WELL AS OURSELVES.

WE DON'T WANT TO TAKE OTHER JOBS FUNCTIONALITY AWAY FROM THEM.

WHEN YOU SAY THAT RDM ISN'T GOOD AT MELEE, GOOD IN PARTY COMPS, AND IS GENERALLY UNDESIRABLE; YOU MAKE US FRUSTRATED BECAUSE YOU JUST VALIDATED THIS, AND ANY OTHER THREAD LIKE IT, THAT IS ASKING FOR IMPROVEMENTS TO RDM.

WE ARE ASKING TO PLAY RDM AS A JOB THAT IS DESIRABLE, VIABLE, AND HAS IT'S OWN UNIQUE ASPECTS; JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER JOB IN THE GAME.

Supersun

05-27-2011, 09:00 AM

WE ARE ASKING TO PLAY RDM AS A JOB THAT IS DESIRABLE, VIABLE, AND HAS IT'S OWN UNIQUE ASPECTS; JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER JOB IN THE GAME.[/B]

When has every job in the game been desirable lol

Seriha

05-27-2011, 10:29 AM

it seems like somebody pops in with this every few pages.. having read the thread title and nothing else....

Or runs to BG seeking affirmation when people gang up on them with disagreements. Funny how a few of their regulars, who seem to make it a habit of trying to troll people, suddenly show up after Eeeks gets told off and this thread in question is linked there.

Dart

05-27-2011, 10:53 AM

I really didn't want to scan through 30 pages of emo/bitching but honestly for solo and the like. Rdm with almace is pretty fun. (and i'm sure that it adds an entire new aspect to rdm soloing) outside that what is it that everyone here wants. To be a desired dd in the ally?

Personally I'm happy with how much almace enhances rdm melee for soloing. Its a great buff and adds to our utility. But for party dynamics I really hope that no one is talking about making rdm melee a viable part of.

Seyrena

05-27-2011, 11:45 AM

I really didn't want to scan through 30 pages of emo/bitching
[snip]
But for party dynamics I really hope that no one is talking about making rdm melee a viable part of.
Doombringer's point is thus proven.

Duelle

05-27-2011, 03:31 PM

When has every job in the game been desirable lolSad, yet true.

Most of us who have been around know how you feel, Mana. The funny thing is that at one point in time I used to get trolled in RDM threads with "well, x job is also not viable in all situations, so suck it up!!!", when they should be asking for buffs and changes to their respective jobs instead of trolling RDM threads. I know misery loves company and all, but geez...

The mage homogenization train wreck looms on the horizonOh. Uh-oh... >< I said nothing!The subjob system was bound to result in that, you know. It's part of why everyone has so vehemently believed SE would never raise the level cap past 75. The effect on mages is just very noticeable because the homogenization of melee already happened long ago (1H = /nin or GTFO. 2H = /sam or GTFO).

Supersun

05-27-2011, 09:08 PM

Or runs to BG seeking affirmation when people gang up on them with disagreements. Funny how a few of their regulars, who seem to make it a habit of trying to troll people, suddenly show up after Eeeks gets told off and this thread in question is linked there.

Also funny in said thread how a few people sided with us (well...against Eeek's self admitted "throwing rocks at the hornet's nest that is the RDM forum" at least).

Like mentioned in said thread at least we are SUGGESTING a direction to take unlike the " Rdm melee is retarded crowd."

And if you honestly think Rdm is fine as it is look at what Blm 99/Rdm 49 is slated to have. It's essentially Rdm with T5 nukes.

Eeek mentioned "I fear that SE will cripple RDM's strong points, or adjust RDM in a way to add nothing to complement its strengths"

What are Rdms strengths? Anything relevant it had over other mage job pretty much became obsolete the moment that other mages got /Rdm 40. I mean what do we have left that's unique.

A %5 superior slow II? If 5% is ever enough to make or break a fight you need to train your DDs how to properly use utsusemi. (Not to mention that Bards already have a superior slow)

I'd imagine paralyze is in the same boat being barely better but a lack of testing makes this difficult to know for sure.

Blind is even worse because the only job that would remotely benefit from having blind on the mob has it's own equally powerful version.

(Not to mention all this is really doing atm is causing your Mnk tank to counter less frequently)

Self admittedly you are new to the job, Eeeks, so you probably didn't have the job when 70% of the job consisted of people that bandwagoned to it for easy merits, but anyone would be deceiving themselves if they said a Rdm was ever invited for more then 4 reasons.

Cure 4, Haste, Refresh, and Convert.

Our strength in ToA was literally stealing Whms job, but now that Whm has finally received its job back with the level cap increase I ask you again what is Rdms strengths.

Because as it stands now Rdm has NO strengths. A +5% stronger slow is not enough of a reason to invite a Whm over a Rdm especially when enfeebles are worthless on 70% of the mobs that matter. Whether they are extremely resistant, or like shinryu where all enfeebles except addle don't do a damn, or the fact that our enfeebles really only adequately reduce the monsters damage from normal melee attacks and don't do jack against TP attack.

Because the only "strength" Rdm has had recently was in ToA and the only way for it to relive it's ToW "glory days" would be for it to exclusively receive Haste 2 and I speak for 100% of Rdms that leveled the job for more then a diva gig, but that is the LAST thing any of us want.

You said you leveled Rdm recently and you have been enjoying it, but let me ask what is it you exactly do on Rdm because you are likely overrating how useful your Rdm is and those "strengths" that Rdm has are probably better fulfilled on another job.

So basically, until you can actually tell us Rdms current strengths that you are so fond of please stop trolling this thread.

Eeek

05-28-2011, 12:49 AM

Daniel_Hatcher

05-28-2011, 01:02 AM

Or runs to BG seeking affirmation when people gang up on them with disagreements. Funny how a few of their regulars, who seem to make it a habit of trying to troll people, suddenly show up after Eeeks gets told off and this thread in question is linked there.

I'll assume by BG you mean that forum that uses all the third party tools, right? The one with the crappy Wiki.

Dart

05-28-2011, 03:57 AM

Doombringer's point is thus proven.

doesn't make what i've said any less logical.

Daniel_Hatcher

05-28-2011, 04:13 AM

doesn't make what i've said any less logical.

People just want excuses to use the sword or dagger of which they have skill with.. Nothing wrong with that! The whole point of the thread is people want SE to improve on RDM's Melee capability, just because some people have come here simply to stir trouble and troll from another "forum" (term used loosely) shouldn't make the thread have any less of a point.

Standing back and healing/enhancing is why I levelled WHM, Nuking I levelled SCH for.. So for that reason and knowing RDM's melee is a joke I have little to no reason to play as RDM as it stands in the current "FFXI version: Easy" will that change if FFXI ever leaves Abyssea, doubtful as even Voidwatch is using the daft system, so unless something is done to RDM be in Melee, Magical or otherwise it's a job that will slowly loose it's worth, PLD mark 2 if you would.

---

As for another person in this thread, stop taking screenshots to try to validate yourself and posting on that bot using, third party filled site.. You must have better things to do... or am I giving you too much credit?

Seriha

05-28-2011, 04:15 AM

First of all, I didn't link this thread. All I did was vent. Special threads like this are easy enough to find.The fact you're using "special" as you are pretty much solidifies you're not here to actually converse, but demean.

I didn't get told off, at least not by any respectable posters with a solid grasp of FFXI game mechanics.I see, so anyone who's not in your "My way or the highway!" camp is uneducated and totally game stupid, which is largely what had people going against you. I'd guess you apply that to any job, though, so the fact it's happening here on the RDM board is irrelevant.

I'm usually a post-and-run kinda cat who likes to toss his stance into the ring when time allows. Although I'd love to hang around for hours-long real-time conversations, I rarely have that kind of time.You've probably got more posts than a large number of users here. You're not kidding anyone if you're trying to convince us you spend little time on these boards. I'll buy the "post and run" part, though, as the running is pretty much what you did once people disagreed with you.

By the way, I'm by no means a representative of BG as I have fewer that 100 posts and I'm not an entrenched member of that community. I'm a lurker by nature, and I've been reading BG for information for years. Here's what I can tell you though: a solid number of BG posters that post here are not trolling (most of the time). They will share ridiculous posts they find here (and there are so many!), but principally, they want their voices heard and their stances represented on the official forums just like everyone else.Sharing a stance is one thing. Insulting people is another. If you're as interested as you imply about RDM's magical side being enhanced, then by all means, start your own thread with that focus. I'd venture a guess that any point you'll bring up, however, has been covered by myself or others in this thread or other threads that have come since this one's inception. Meanwhile, playing the peanut gallery in their little snark thread is gonna get you associated with their negative aspects whether you like it or not. Aside from your intro post, your second was in the old incarnation of their trollbait forum superiority thread (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103316-The-Official-Forums-BG-Edition?p=4525526&highlight=#post4525526). Again, you're throwing "special" around as an insult and complimenting a guy for "destroying" another poster. I might have actually bought the lurker line if you had a number of random posts prior, but it seems bettering the game isn't your only priority.

ManaKing

05-28-2011, 04:24 AM

When has every job in the game been desirable lol

Ok, you got me there, lolDRG, lolDRK, and lolBLM, were pretty bad.

But that's one of the reasons that the forums exist. I am hoping that with as much history as FFXI has, that they can speed up the process. The updates that are coming in the next year look promising, but vauge. I, personally, want RDM to be taken seriously in these updates.

Carth

05-28-2011, 04:27 AM

If you're as interested as you imply about RDM's magical side being enhanced, then by all means, start your own thread with that focus. I'd venture a guess that any point you'll bring up, however, has been covered by myself or others in this thread or other threads that have come since this one's inception.
Considering the only thing the RDMs are screaming out for mage-wise is Cure V, then I would say yeah, that's covered. Suggestions for new enfeebles? Ironically that's covered too, even though they're from the same exact people who regularly post on this thread.

ManaKing

05-28-2011, 04:35 AM

Considering the only thing the RDMs are screaming out for mage-wise is Cure V, then I would say yeah, that's covered. Suggestions for new enfeebles? Ironically that's covered too, even though they're from the same exact people who regularly post on this thread.

See the funny thing about forums is that it is a place to share ideas. I came here because I had ideas and I wanted to hear what other people came up with.

While i may criticize or counter-opinion, I would love to hear anyone's idea.

Aleste

05-28-2011, 04:55 AM

Bit of blurb - Whitemages are pretty decent equipped to front line as it currently stands, they've plenty of relevant gear to do so, and a couple of spells designed specifically around front lining, also got access to mystic boon and spirit taker which rely on a whitemage not to rest, but to build TP to use.

And yet sensible whitemages don't front line (on the vast-vast majority of mobs), mostly due to the fact that it is:

A - Less efficient to do so (example: loosing out on staff m.acc bonus on your enfeebles)
B - More of a drain on mp resources (taking damage will require to be healed at some point)
C - Most mobs are not 'caster friendly'. Using heavy AOE and ailment-ga or even potent aura effects.

So, honest question (if you don't believe so, then at least humour me):

Do you honestly believe that if given a few toys that promote front lining, that it'll change how the playerbase views the job? Nay, that suddenly you'll get to front line?

Some jobs are capable of it, but don't. Perhaps it's worth a thought as to why they don't.

At the end of the day, it comes down to this:
If they give you some potent melee damage, it'll still be safer and more efficient to back line.
If they give you some nice front line aoe ability, you'll just be expected to run in, use it and run out (akin to auspice and bar-spells).
If they give you some sort of buff that helps reduce the damage you (and nearby party members) take, then your soloing capabilities will drastically improve; and that is something we've seen SE dislike in the past.

I think the trouble with redmage is that it's difficult to accurately balance a job that's meant to be a 'jack of all trades' without overshadowing the specialized jobs, and without overpowering the job itself. Personally if they did give RDM a melee buff, then it'll get used rarely.

--Edit--

Honestly, RDM would require some sort of weapon with decent damage, with a stupid amount of m.acc to match out loosing out on an elemental stave. They would then require some sort of ability for mitigating or reducing damage further than they currently have in their arsonal and also some sort of ability/spell that stops them getting screwed over by AOE-ailment moves.

Ontop of that, they'd have to carry additional relevant gear to TP and WS in...

and that's what it would take for me to be content with a redmage meleeing...

Seriha

05-28-2011, 05:28 AM

You're kind of hinting on how SE's early attempts at hybrid jobs weren't all that hot. They got it more right with BLU, fumbled with DNC, but steered it more in a good direction despite a few lingering flaws. Frankly, I've always felt Misery mode, and in turn all that follows it, has been underutilized by WHMs. Part of that is lack of melee interest, sure. Another is lack of need. And yes, there's some potential inefficiency to it depending on the target, too. Overall, if someone's of the opinion that something can never happen, I'll just reiterate they're not being creative enough. Things like good hybrid gear, poor damage, and the TP feed argument can all be worked around. Individually, RDMs should be one of the more durable people if in range of AoEs and can take care of themselves while the healers focus on those who can't. Do debuffs suck? Sure. Not every mob's a Malboro, though, and of late with auras, if SE wants us inflicted with a particular debuff for a fight, it's gonna happen even if you have a WHM -na'ing to infinity.

Supersun

05-28-2011, 06:49 AM

Honestly, RDM would require some sort of weapon with decent damage, with a stupid amount of m.acc to match out loosing out on an elemental stave.

Alternatively they could just give future non-CC enfeebles native high M.Acc like stun.

People might think that's broken, but I would think that if they tweaked the formulas so it was less of a focus on landing the spell and more of a battle of how potent the spell is so we don't more or less auto-cap potency like we do now I think it would balance out.

I mean the formulas for our current enfeebles seemed more tailored to pre-75 where you likely weren't going to cap those formulas, but as it is now the moment you can ding into errant you'll likely be able to hit enough mind to cap.

If you change the focus of the spell to a battle of potency vs a battle of accuracy then it's not as big of a deal to not be using a staff.

Sure, there are some flaws with the idea such as that Enfeebling skill then more or less becomes worthless, but you could change the formula for future enfeebles so that enfeebling skill also affects potency or even better if you want to get creative, raises the cap of those enfeebles.

Mind you, this would also rely on them adding future enfeebles that actually justify the party slot, but certainly this would be one way to get around the issue of needed staves.

-----

To be fair to the "other forum" they have contributed volumes to our knowledge of the game. Even though it may rival /b in terms of being a hive of scum and villainy that's more due to it's reputation attracting said people like flies. Don't stereotype everyone on the site with that average mentality though because the people that actually contribute a damn tend to be quite the opposite.

Daniel_Hatcher

05-28-2011, 07:00 AM

To be fair to the "other forum" they have contributed volumes to our knowledge of the game. Even though it may rival /b in terms of being a hive of scum and villainy that's more due to it's reputation attracting said people like flies. Don't stereotype everyone on the site with that average mentality though because the people that actually contribute a damn tend to be quite the opposite.

I don't doubt it, this is true of anywhere and you can't fault what they've found out about the game..

But the majority I've seen come to this and another board I've been on come only with the intention to troll, and that's rather sad.

I also hate the post screenshots to insult mentality I've seen from them, it just reeks of a lack of anything useful to waste their time on and is rather school playground tactics.

Duelle

05-28-2011, 01:28 PM

I also hate the post screenshots to insult mentality I've seen from them, it just reeks of a lack of anything useful to waste their time on and is rather school playground tactics.If they're actually doing this, I'd say they might want to put their money where their mouth is and actually try to have some sort of discussion on the matter here, rather than troll a thread about RDM melee.

Do you honestly believe that if given a few toys that promote front lining, that it'll change how the playerbase views the job? Nay, that suddenly you'll get to front line?Depends on how its pulled off, how much is put into role emphasis and what limiting mechanics (if any) are placed while allowing said melee RDM to come anywhere near what the accepted amount of DPS for a front-liner would be. I've seen it done before, and it's worked.

At the end of the day, it comes down to this:
- If they give you some potent melee damage, it'll still be safer and more efficient to back line.
- If they give you some nice front line aoe ability, you'll just be expected to run in, use it and run out (akin to auspice and bar-spells).
- If they give you some sort of buff that helps reduce the damage you (and nearby party members) take, then your soloing capabilities will drastically improve; and that is something we've seen SE dislike in the past.- While entirely removing the "RDM is not a front line DD" argument.
- Not if there's a mechanic in place that forces you to be in the front line.
- While this is indeed true, this is also a result of SE's developers sitting on their hands and not nerfing the soloing tactics to the ground. As I've constantly said, under any other developer team, it would have been nerfed within hours of being discovered. Its speed would rival the hotfix that nerfed Reckoning Bomb (http://www.wowwiki.com/Reckoning_Bomb).

Honestly, RDM would require some sort of weapon with decent damage, with a stupid amount of m.acc to match out loosing out on an elemental stave. They would then require some sort of ability for mitigating or reducing damage further than they currently have in their arsonal and also some sort of ability/spell that stops them getting screwed over by AOE-ailment moves.Job Traits:

- Arcane Combat: Your magic accuracy is increased by your main-hand weapon accuracy while under the effects of composure.

Healing Waltz from /DNC deals with the last one, while the damage taken thing isn't really necessary.

Neisan_Quetz

05-28-2011, 09:43 PM

Daniel_Hatcher

05-28-2011, 10:20 PM

Why does Rdm need more abilities for mitigating damage when it already has 2 spells for that, in addition to self pro/shell of second highest level (barring whm with merited versions), and a full line of self target bars (also blink but it rarely gets used)? If subbing Nin both utsusemei spells as well.

It doesn't, people have just decided RDM should never melee for more reasons than the DOT they don't do, and as such they are making more and more barriers that other jobs don't have to justify how they're still right.

I meant think about it:

PDT build - can cap at 50% - Phalanx adds to that, stoneskin improves it further.
MDT built - can cap at 50% - Magic Defence Bonus improves that, Bar spells improve it further

Dart

05-29-2011, 01:05 AM

People just want excuses to use the sword or dagger of which they have skill with.. Nothing wrong with that! The whole point of the thread is people want SE to improve on RDM's Melee capability, just because some people have come here simply to stir trouble and troll from another "forum" (term used loosely) shouldn't make the thread have any less of a point.

Standing back and healing/enhancing is why I levelled WHM, Nuking I levelled SCH for.. So for that reason and knowing RDM's melee is a joke I have little to no reason to play as RDM as it stands in the current "FFXI version: Easy" will that change if FFXI ever leaves Abyssea, doubtful as even Voidwatch is using the daft system, so unless something is done to RDM be in Melee, Magical or otherwise it's a job that will slowly loose it's worth, PLD mark 2 if you would.

---

As for another person in this thread, stop taking screenshots to try to validate yourself and posting on that bot using, third party filled site.. You must have better things to do... or am I giving you too much credit?

I lvl'd rdm because of the utility the job brings, and now its my absolute favorite job to solo on. The only thing that I've wanted is cure5. T4's was such a boon to the job and I can't wait for thunder4.

Different play styles, different opinions as always. I see rdm as completely fullfilling its "jack of all trades" title, and as Ipreviously mentioned with wanting cure5 would again make it viable in party set up. I love the job and get great use out of it as it is.

Sure its lost some of the things that only rdm could bring to the table (vert, refresh just to name two). But speaking for me personally. A boost to our melee phase would not make the job any more enjoyable for me.

Aleste

05-29-2011, 02:14 AM

Actually, my major quip with ANY mage meleeing is mostly down to efficiency sake. It's just not VIABLE as it currently stands to put any soft-armoured job up close to a NM, moreso one that provides such a useful boon to the party. Heavy strength enfeebles, useful buffs and additional healing is nothing that should be laughed at.

This isn't partly due to people thinking redmages can't DD. It's more to do with mob design. They could change RDM into an awesome DD, but the vast majority of people will always go back to the most efficient method of doing things.. and unfortunately, that'll put you back into the backline.

For scrub mobs or experience point parties, it seems perfectly fine to melee on. They're normally not a huge threat, and are pretty incapable of dealing any sort of considerable damage or debuffs.

However, that's not the type of mobs we're talking about is it? You're looking to melee on mobs that actually matter. Most of them come with various 600+ damage physical or magical AOEs and/or assorted debuffs and ailments. Recently we've seen a surge in NMs with aura-esque effects which are even worse than the standard mobs as you've pretty much got to ride it out (para/slow/silence/terror being the worst ones), and those, as any mage will tell you, can easily mess you and your entire parties day up.

I'll admit to being exceedingly annoyed whenever I stroll into melee range to cast some sort of AOE enhancing magic only to get clipped by terror, or paralysis (magic/TP move, or aura).... and then I stand, often completely helpless whilst some teammate gets beaten up. You would be mad to stand toe-to-toe 100% of the time and melee on the vast majority of mobs. Actual MELEE jobs don't like meleeing some mobs.

Hell, I get annoyed at some whitemages who stand inside melee range only to see 'XYZ is paralysed.' over and over again. We all know who gets the blame the second someone dies... and if your RDM is meleeing, and gets paralysed and someone dies, I BET someone will stop and go 'hey, why were you in range in the first place?'.

Your current job identity is back line and it's where people expect you to be.

While yes, there are some assorted NM's that it's more beneficial/efficient to put a mage close to, whether it be to AOE-adloquim/stoneskin/enspells or to utilise esuna more; but those mob are few and far between.

Someone suggested that you should use either /NIN to help reduce damage taken, although most of the damage you would be taking would be from AOE's, which unfortunately wipe shadows whilst still dealing damage... and that's not even considering the loss of your normal /subjob spells/abilities/traits. It'll up your melee DOT sure, but at what a price?

/DNC whilst more useful than /NIN isn't compatible with your enspells, and the only thing going for it is that you gain the ability to instantly cure people (often for low amounts) and remove minor ailments (although, for arguments sake the only useful one you'd remove is silence) from yourself.

And to end.... Sleepga. /SCH offers the most protection, but sublimation doesn't stack with refresh, and offers absolutely nothing to your melee abilities.

tl;dr.

Yes, it's fun to melee; it has a time and a place, but it's few and far between.

The potential gain of having a RDM melee (assuming of course that they're capable of keeping up their debuff/haste/refresh cycle, in addition to cures) comes at an enormous cost.

If the solution to having a rdm melee is to bring a whitemage to heal/buff/stand out of range.... then why the hell invite a RDM? Grab a BRD instead.

RDM does need a fix, but buffing their melee would be pointless.

Daniel_Hatcher

05-29-2011, 04:53 AM

If the solution to having a rdm melee is to bring a whitemage to heal/buff/stand out of range.... then why the hell invite a RDM? Grab a BRD instead.

RDM does need a fix, but buffing their melee would be pointless.

I'll agree with that, as I've said before, RDM needs something as a reason to bring it whether it's Melee or otherwise, as it stands there is no reason to bring it.

Duelle

05-29-2011, 08:17 AM

Actually, my major quip with ANY mage meleeing is mostly down to efficiency sake. It's just not VIABLE as it currently stands to put any soft-armoured job up close to a NM, moreso one that provides such a useful boon to the party. Heavy strength enfeebles, useful buffs and additional healing is nothing that should be laughed at.Front line non-tanks are all equally squishy at the baseline. I don't see how a front line Red Mage would be any different. Or are you implying that front liners in general are a liability?

This isn't partly due to people thinking redmages can't DD. It's more to do with mob design. They could change RDM into an awesome DD, but the vast majority of people will always go back to the most efficient method of doing things and unfortunately, that'll put you back into the backline.How can you be so sure? People's strats and approaches to things change when you alter class mechanics. This is because things that were not plausible suddenly become real options. Again, I wouldn't be so in favor it of had I not seen it work before.

Recently we've seen a surge in NMs with aura-esque effects which are even worse than the standard mobs as you've pretty much got to ride it out (para/slow/silence/terror being the worst ones), and those, as any mage will tell you, can easily mess you and your entire parties day up.This depends on what you're doing while in the front line.

You would be mad to stand toe-to-toe 100% of the time and melee on the vast majority of mobs. Actual MELEE jobs don't like meleeing some mobs.I can agree with this in that a melee RDM would follow the rules other front-liners do. This is fine and good.

Hell, I get annoyed at some whitemages who stand inside melee range only to see 'XYZ is paralysed.' over and over again. We all know who gets the blame the second someone dies... and if your RDM is meleeing, and gets paralysed and someone dies, I BET someone will stop and go 'hey, why were you in range in the first place?'.Again, depends on what you're there for. If you're there to wack things with a sword you're playing by the rules the other melee follow, which is fine.

Your current job identity is back line and it's where people expect you to be.Our identity is that of buffbot with cures. We're aiming to get away from that, and with good reason.

I can tell you what the eventual melee camp expected when we rolled this class all those years ago, but you know that already.

It's been how many years now with the melee camp getting walked over by the nay-sayers and the avestas in our ranks?

So we got tired of being buffbots and want the class to be something more. Sure, we should have been going full force since the days refresh and haste were added to our spell lists, but better late than never.

The potential gain of having a RDM melee (assuming of course that they're capable of keeping up their debuff/haste/refresh cycle, in addition to cures) comes at an enormous cost.That's a losing proposition already seeing that you're expecting the RDM to heal, refresh and haste while in melee. That's not going to realistically happen unless you turn Refresh and Haste into 30-minute duration AoE spells. Off-heals and the occasional buff, sure. Cycles and all that comes with it, not a chance.

If the solution to having a rdm melee is to bring a whitemage to heal/buff/stand out of range.... then why the hell invite a RDM? Grab a BRD instead.You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. Looking at things in the "RDM is cures, refresh and haste" light won't do our class any good. Perhaps I'm alone in this, but the idea is more along the lines of "front line RDM does A, B and C" and "back line RDM does D, E and F". The current way things are done with RDM needs to be dropped and buried, if only because it has made us something that is a far cry from what Red Mage should be.

Supersun

05-29-2011, 11:39 AM

If you are talking about efficiency you have to ultimately realize you are referring to some form of economics.

Ultimately you have to realize that in terms of efficiency that EVERY job can contribute more on the front lines. There's nothing you can really do from the back you can't do from the front, but there are plenty of things from the front you can't perform from the back. Even a Blm on the front can only hit 20% of the time for 1 damage and he's already doing more then he could from the back. (Ranger might be the exception since their damage relies from standing at a certain location towards the back.)

The reason there's a back line though it because being in the front simply puts you at risk. Whether from nasty AoE, status effects, or auras.

If a job is still very useful even in the back and loses relatively little from not being on the front then generally when the risk outweighs the benefit that job moves to the back.

The more useful a job is on the front lines the more danger people are willing to expose that job to. The more and more danger a mob presents to the front line the more and more people get delegated to the rear to perform whatever utility they can perform from the back.

Keep in mind this isn't an on/off switch, but a sliding scale.

On one end you have the mobs that "people don't care if the Whm melees" because there's relatively little threat to the people on the front line and adding Whms front line efficiency to the front is well worth the minimal risk involved.

On the other end you have stuff like the ACP crystal at 75 where unless you were CS stun zerging it only the full MDB Pld was allowed on the front lines and every other job no matter how useful they were on the front were delegated to the back to contribute whatever they could.

This is the issue with Rdm melee and why this thread exists. Because Rdm is pretty much a job that has less front line utility then a White Mage (while white mage already has a ton more backline utility then Rdm), and Red Mage pretty much adds the most risk to your front line for the least benefit out of every job in the entire game.

Rdm needs more utility on the front lines.

Now there's a few ways they could accomplish this. They could simply just make Rdm more damaging, but this would be a very difficult route to balance since Red Mage does still have a bit of back line utility (less so then other jobs at this point though), and if balanced improperly they could easily create something rivaling the tank mage.

The other thing they could do is create benefits to having the Red Mage on the front like like Misery mode with White Mage. Certainly it wouldn't be impossible to create some form of utility that would be worth the risk of having a Red Mage on the front line.

The idea solution will likely be a mix between the 2 though. Certainly with Rdm being one of the worst melee leaves him with plenty of room for some form of adjustment on the damage end, but at the same time he needs some form of special utility to give him the staying power of other close range fighters without needing to output their damage.

Dart

05-29-2011, 03:34 PM

Rdm is actually quite damaging, certainly not on the level of a blm but rdm nukes are nothing to laugh at especially when you gear for them properly, as I previously mentioned with getting T4's being such a boon to my rdm. I don't see anyway of balancing melee dmg to the magic dmg rdm can already do without utterly breaking the job.

This reminds me of the drk forums where they want everything and completely break the job to the degree that it would be god mode and you would have an 18 man alliance of all drks (or rdm's in this case).

Seriously cure5 and we could be whm placebo and get the job done. Wanna do dmg? Get that kick ass nuke set together and spam those T4's.

Lack of cure5 is what is killing our job inside abyssea, and to a much lesser extent outside. I lvl'd rdm on my mule as well and anytime I do something outside abyssea I get him off his whm and on his rdm to keep us alive.

Supersun

05-29-2011, 04:41 PM

CONGRATULATIONS!

...you just described Scholar

Seriha

05-29-2011, 05:33 PM

MP is finite. If you're setting Atma for melee, you won't be nuking hard and will also have a small MP pool over time. Thunder IV isn't going to be nearly as beneficial as Blizzard IV was to us thanks to Beyond. So, no this won't create some kind of RDM superman, and will be doubly so outside of Abyssea.

Aleste

05-30-2011, 03:10 AM

I was never a fan of dissecting posts; however..

Front line non-tanks are all equally squishy at the baseline. I don't see how a front line Red Mage would be any different. Or are you implying that front liners in general are a liability?

The difference is not that some jobs are more/less squishy at the frontline. It's the loss of what RDM brings to the table (in it's current form) that causes it to be a more drastic loss than loosing, say, a dragoon.

If you your frontline dragoon bites the dust, you loose a chunk of DOT. The fight lasts a bit longer. Big woop.

If your frontline redmage bites the dust, you loose someone capable of:

Hasting all DD's
Throwing emergency potent cures
Removing ailments
Weakening the mobs accuracy/attack/attack speed
Additional re-application of buffs (for those spammy mobs)
A large amount of utility spells
Additional sleepga/stuns for crowd control and NM lockdown

Unless of course, you're not doing any of those things. In which case, why invite someone with below-par melee?

I've seen you reference "had I not seen it work before" twice now. Care to give an example, or two?

The playerbase has always been known for doing things in the most efficient way possible, it's the reason why some jobs are seen as unwanted, and why you see specific shouts for specified jobs. It has been like this for as long as the game has existed.

That's a losing proposition already seeing that you're expecting the RDM to heal, refresh and haste while in melee. That's not going to realistically happen unless you turn Refresh and Haste into 30-minute duration AoE spells. Off-heals and the occasional buff, sure. Cycles and all that comes with it, not a chance.

All in all, I would kick a whitemage out of the party if they refused to do their job. Same as I would kick a tank for not tanking. You have those spells for a reason, they make other jobs better; ignoring, or failing to cast them is NOT DOING YOUR JOB.

However you make a fair point with the casting burden redmage faces. It has a large amount of spells to cast often on multiple players. Typically, I'd expect NO LESS than 2 melee jobs hasted and anyone who uses MP to be refreshed; whilst still maintaining their enfeebling role (and I often struggle to find a RDM decent enough to do that, let alone anything else). SE did reduce your casting burden by introducing enhanced duration enhancements via your RDM AF3 set, although it's not enough to free up the kind of time you're expecting to have to wave your sword about.

I wouldn't expect RDM to get -ga versions of any of those spells as RDM seems to be the single target enhancer, whilst WHM (or alternatively accessionable, SCH) the AOE enhancer... whilst it might be... useful for RDM to get spells like that, it doesn't fit in with their current spell lineup in comparison to other mages.

Perhaps I'm alone in this, but the idea is more along the lines of "front line RDM does A, B and C" and "back line RDM does D, E and F".

The trouble lies in that ~12 other jobs currently do A, B and C in far greater capabilities than you'll ever be able to achieve. Buffing your A, B and C to compete against them will overpower your job as you'll still have D, E and F (which can easily be replaced by WHM + BRD).

If however, you feel that SE should take a give-and-take stand point via heavily buffing ABC and heavily weakening DEF, then why wouldn't anyone just get meleejob-ABC or actualmage-DEF?

If you are talking about efficiency you have to ultimately realize you are referring to some form of economics.

Actually, as MEng I refer to efficiency via its mechanical definition ("The ratio of useful work done to energy expended").

If you're to meleeing, you are actively contributing damage over time via sword attacks, enspell damage and the occasional WS.

In doing so, you've now placed yourself inside AOE range of the mob.

You'll now require to be healed (amount varies depending on NM) and you may be inflicted with a various assortment of ailments (of which can reduce your DOT to 0 temporarily). You'll also have to remember that since you are using your sword, you'll not be gaining the magical accuracy boosts to your debuffs or your cure potency... and you can't forget to haste yourself too~ (implication that you'll have to cast additional spells)

(note -- Presuming that you've somehow the inventory to carry all those assorted gearsets. SE has stated that there is only so many stats they can stick on a single piece of gear. If you're moving gear out to move TP/WS gear in, then you're loosing part of the benefits of backlining)

(Side paragraph -- Although, if you are /war or /nin you'll have no way to remove your ailments. If you are /dnc, you'll have to expend TP to remove them one at a time, TP presuming, on a 15 second recast timer, amnesia-not-prohibiting.)

So, for your RDM meleeing to be AS EFFICIENT as backlining then the potential difference damage gained will have to be EQUAL to the difference lost in MP expenditure/regain and potency of debuffs/cure.

(side note -- For the playerbase to suddenly stop and rethink your current 'position', it would have to be heavily in favour of melee damage gained.)

Of course, this is impractical and currently swings heavily in favour of backlining.... and it's because of a multitude of problems... which is kind of the point of this thread; to stop, and think out the reasons for and against of an idea, and also the possible outcomes of implimenting it.

I rather liked your idea to combat the difference in stave potency via:

Job Traits:
- Arcane Combat: Your magic accuracy is increased by your main-hand weapon accuracy while under the effects of composure.

However, given SE's way of doing things, you'd probably have to balance it out a little.

Job Traits:
- Arcane Combat: Your magic accuracy is increased by your weapon accuracy while under the effects of composure. Your magical attack is similarly reduced.

For debuffs, that shouldn't change anything. Now, that's 1 thing crossed off the list, care to try any of the other problems that you'll end up facing ?

Neisan_Quetz

05-30-2011, 03:20 AM

If all you was using a Rdm for was haste/cures/status removal/buff/sleepga/stun, you clearly should have invited a second Whm subbing blm.

Rdm can't do all of those at the same time anyway, so I guess that makes the Whm even more useful than it already is.

Aleste

05-30-2011, 03:42 AM

I'd rather have a bard actually.

Supersun

05-30-2011, 04:36 AM

I'd rather have a bard actually.

Is anyone else a little concerned what Brd/Rdm is going to be able to bring to the table at 99?

I mean one job alone will be able to provide
+35% haste
+12 MP/tick Refresh
Cure 4 + Convert + that 12 MP/tick Refresh (+ whatever gear they have)
+50% Slow - (+80% Slow)

I mean people want to discuss about Rdms awesome buffing abilities but at 99 unless they do something drastic it won't even hold a candle to that.

-----

Also I don't think it's a matter of front line utility > Back line utility to determine which jobs are allowed to frontline against the risk of danger, but if the reward of the extra contribution that job brings to the front line outweighs the risk of death.

In your example of the dragoon, clearly the reward of him being worth the risk of him on the front line was worth it in your scenario simply because if it wasn't you probably wouldn't have invited him. Similarly with Blue Mage, they are a LOT more useful on the front lines but when the fight gets difficult enough the extra benefit the bring to the front outweighs the risk of them there and they get relegated to the back to cannonball spam. Similarly in the past with Mnks and Chi Blast spam.

It's not just a matter of Front line > Back line to determine who's allowed on the front because when things get dangerous enough virtually no one is allowed on the front lines, and from there unless you can contribute some minimum level of contributions from the back line you just aren't invited period.

---

Also, these forums aren't necessarily a place to debate whether something CAN work because let's be honest if SE really wanted to they could design it where you want your Blms on the front line and Wars in the back. These forums are more for finding ideas to accomplish this without it looking so silly as to revamp the entire identity of the job like above. This is why when people come here and just say "Rdm on the front line sucks, it's impossible" we don't reply as courteously because nothing is impossible to balance. The point of these forums are for identifying the obstacles that need to be overcome and brainstorming solutions for them (and then for SE to steal those ideas and add them to other jobs/gear).

(Also, watch your quotes, you quoted me, then attributed Duelle's idea to me.)

Aleste

05-30-2011, 04:49 AM

ManaKing

05-30-2011, 04:50 AM

I lvl'd rdm because of the utility the job brings, and now its my absolute favorite job to solo on. The only thing that I've wanted is cure5. T4's was such a boon to the job and I can't wait for thunder4.

Different play styles, different opinions as always. I see rdm as completely fullfilling its "jack of all trades" title, and as Ipreviously mentioned with wanting cure5 would again make it viable in party set up. I love the job and get great use out of it as it is.

Sure its lost some of the things that only rdm could bring to the table (vert, refresh just to name two). But speaking for me personally. A boost to our melee phase would not make the job any more enjoyable for me.

sorry to hear that, It would for me. Better enspells would make this job everything I want. I'm not looking to beat a WAR at the physical game. I just want to be able to channel my jack of all trades into melee magic damage that is significant because I have all the tools to do it.

I like Tier IV as well and didn't expect to get them. That being said, I don't want to be a BLM.

I don't mind back up healing and nuking, but when that is what I am good for, and people still say, "I'd rather have a WHM or a BLM" I don't feel like I'm really playing my job.

Daniel_Hatcher

05-30-2011, 07:02 AM

Apologies with the incorrect quoting~ however, I don't believe I've ever once said that its 'impossible' for a RDM to melee.

Rather I find meleeing on ANY MAGE it to be incredibly inefficient and as it stands, is far too risky in the games current design.

And I'll easily admit it because I've spent so long trying to get whitemage to be viable under misery.

Well to be fair WHM shouldn't be a front line mage, RDM was supposed to be before SE decided it would have been too powerful a soloist if they did them any good at it, or whatever reason they decided to change it from "melee mage" to just a mage.

Duelle

05-30-2011, 07:02 AM

I had a long post typed up but the forums ate it. I may sound short in this, but that's more for expediency's sake than anything else.

Hasting all DD's
Throwing emergency potent cures
Removing ailments
Weakening the mobs accuracy/attack/attack speed
Additional re-application of buffs (for those spammy mobs)
A large amount of utility spells
Additional sleepga/stuns for crowd control and NM lockdownThe short answer is you can't expect a front liner to do all that. It simply is not plausible with the other things front line play involve.

Unless of course, you're not doing any of those things. In which case, why invite someone with below-par melee?Which therefore means RDM does need melee buffs.

I've seen you reference "had I not seen it work before" twice now. Care to give an example, or two?This was the meat of my post that got eaten. I'll try to type from memory with some extra edits.

RDM is not the only class that was defiled for the sake of convenience. There was another class at around the time Refresh and Haste entered the picture that ran into the same discrimination, the same insults, the same resistance and had the exact same problems Red Mage had (and continues to have).

Rather than a magic fencer, this class was a knight-in-shining-armor archetype that was designed with weak melee, which forced it into the role of healer and buff bot, much to the chagrin of the people who rolled the class to be the knight-in-shining-armor only to find themselves healing and buffing others if they wanted to see the content that mattered. After much ire expressed by the melee camp, the developers started looking for ways to make the front-line aspects of this class work.

They first went with Seriha's suggested approach by introducing hybrid gear with STR, INT and Auto-Refresh and front-line abilities that were leaning more to the side of supplemental melee (auras that increased group damage, attacks that reset the duration of certain debuffs). Problem was that the hybrid gear had such spread out stats that from raw stats alone the class was still way behind the other front-liners. Their supplemental melee proved worthless because they still could not measure up to what was expected of a front-liner, leading to them still being used a cure bots and buff bots.

The developers eventually bit the bullet and made a couple of changes. First they placed the melee aspect of the class and balanced it around being in melee gear. This means you don't wear caster or hybrid gear to front-line. Then they changed abilities to scale with attack power and melee accuracy for those who chose to be in the front lines. Then they tossed in stat conversions for the certain abilities of this class that scaled from spell power that you could no longer gear for because you were wearing melee gear (the short of it being that X% of attack power also acted as spell power for those abilities).

Then they added melee mechanics to seal the deal. My favorite of those was a proc from critical hits that made the weaker of your two healing spells or your nuke-type spell instant cast while consuming the proc.

The result of all this is the "lolmelee", "shut up and heal" and "lol ur not dd" arguments died after those changes went through. You could suddenly stand in the front lines, be as equally valuable as the other front-liners, while still keeping parts of your utility and identity without being this broken overpowered thing that dwarfed all other melee. The guys that liked to heal and support got to continue doing that, while the melee enthusiasts got their wish. The world (of warcraft) was suddenly a better place.

I think the above can be applied to RDM. While I understand that XI's game engine might not support certain parts of the above, the basic idea is there. Create melee emphasis, balance it around melee gear, separate it from how the class is currently played and then touch up and leave to dry. You'd make both camps happy and even kill the redundancy that exists when you have more than one RDM in the group.

All in all, I would kick a whitemage out of the party if they refused to do their job. Same as I would kick a tank for not tanking. You have those spells for a reason, they make other jobs better; ignoring, or failing to cast them is NOT DOING YOUR JOB.The guy with a sword in one hand and magic glowing out of the other should be swinging that sword and going Seifer on mobs by releasing spells at point-blank range. The refresh/haste/cure bot model has been nothing short of a violation of the Red Mage concept and everything the class has stood for...at the cost of our class identity for the convenience of others. Enough is enough, really.

For the other parts of your post, all I can say is that mechanics and limitations can be put in place to keep things under control.

I rather liked your idea to combat the difference in stave potency via:

Job Traits:
- Arcane Combat: Your magic accuracy is increased by your main-hand weapon accuracy while under the effects of composure.However, given SE's way of doing things, you'd probably have to balance it out a little.Thanks. Admittedly, this was taken from my "Red Mage redesigned with stances" proposal, but modified to fit the class as it currently plays. I do understand the risk involved, however, as RDM would merit sword or dagger, equip that to boost accuracy for spells and then stack MAB gear.

The original version of Arcane Combat is available only while in melee mode, which has a bunch of other restrictions to focus on front-line play. These include reduced casting range for nukes to 5 yalms (AKA melee range), MAB not affecting nukes while in melee mode and instead scaling from a portion of attack power or STR (haven't made my mind up on this one), elemental resistance debuffs from enspells playing a bigger role (and make them same-element instead of opposite element like enspells II), emphasis on enfeebles, limited support ("nerfed" versions of our current spells such a Haste, Refresh, Enspells and Phalanx lasting a lot longer but being self-cast only, longer cast times for cures and possibly higher MP costs), and so on.

I just brought that up because I wanted to show it is possible to make one side (melee) benefit the other (mage), not to mention it is well within Red Mage's theme as the guy that stands between the melee and magic paths.

Supersun

05-30-2011, 07:04 AM

I don't believe I've ever once said that its 'impossible' for a RDM to melee.

Wasn't really referring to you as much as other people that have barged into the thread.

(also, were half of those puns in your post intentional Duelle?)

Dart

05-30-2011, 10:59 PM

edit: not worth it

Duelle

05-31-2011, 10:33 AM

(also, were half of those puns in your post intentional Duelle?)Unfortunately, I haven't the slightest idea of what you're talking about.

I did write this on little sleep and no food in my Taru belly, though. >.>;;

Hyrist

06-03-2011, 11:11 PM

This may get a bit lengthy. I'm not certain. I'll try to condense about eight years worth of thought on this.

While I agree that Melee Gear for Red Mage could use a boost, I have always been under the assumption that it is more Square Enix's premise for Front Line Red Mages that is the problem, and is the reason why we are not getting the gear and updates we, in the eyes of many of the Red Mage players, should receive.

I've maintained for years that a Red Mage's role, be it front line or back, is that of a party catalyst. Opening opportunities for others to shine while manipulating the situation for us to contribute in semi-direct ways, thus our traits for enfeebeling and enhancing.

Before Abyssea, our DoT melee, when properly geared, was a fairly decent. This has fallen behind due to the tip in gear balancing (and the lack of spell/ability support to make it up, which was what enspells served as before). And I firmly believe this should be buffed back up. However, our burst damage has never been all that good, and I've always understood why.

Similar to SE's plans for Dark Knight, Red Mage's front line aspects were angled around the skillchain mechanic after it was implemented, and the evidence mounts to this as the updates kept rolling in. The two largest points in this are more recent, Death Blossom and Magic Burst Bonus. Essentially, we were being designed to be able to open skillchains for others, then burst upon them. The damage we were contributing was divided among the parts we are contributing to.

The problem is, this system was not only archaic but teamwork heavy, and thus slow and inefficient. Nowadays people can self skillchain with relative ease and otherwise spamming skillchains becomes more damage over time efficient. This really limits this utility to low man situations and small parties.

But because the mechanics is there, and Red Mage has the ability to push both Skillchain AND magic bursting damage, SE is going to hesitate to give us melee bonuses. Especially as we've got access to some fairly powerful weapons as well as the Tier IV line of nukes.

In the end, they see Red Mages as 'whole picture' job class rather than measuring and comparing it's parts separately, as we Red Mages tend to do. Which wouldn't be an issue if this system was better streamlined.

I realize there is a lot of call for more "Front Line Utility" but in truth there is very little that can be offered that isn't already there, either offered by Red Mage itself through various subjob settings, or flatly via other jobs. Instead of trying to take Red Mage into another direction, I believe we should hone what we already have in place.

In which case, many of the previously stated ideas, if put into proper balancing, would work very well. For some examples:

Quickcast: The system has already been implemented via Atma. Functioning as a trait or an activated Job ability the ability to occasionally cast a spell without timer would be very helpful to a Red Mage's casting load, freeing up melee time, which is our biggest crux.

Enspell III: Enspells with proper scaling for the 99 level cap are pretty much a must. A question of how they would function could be brought up. (Should it conflict with Sambas, if so, should it come with some sort of native attack bonus, etc.) But unmistakeably they should function similar to the Enspell I line in that it scales off of Enhancing magic at cast. (to a greater degree, of course).

Composure: Why this does not function on every target I do not know. Having it work on any targeted buff even at a reduced effectiveness (which then can still be enhanced with Emperyan gear.) would remove a great deal of the tedium that's involved with having a high casting load support wise. Having the accuracy bonus scale would also be a great boon.

Chainbind: /sam, Dancer, Blue Mage, Puppetmaster all have the ability to self skillchain. Dancer (and now Samurai) has the ability to set up a monster on it's own to skillchain. Making Chainbind an official debuff Red Mage can cast gives him or her the ability to assist himself, and the party, in a mechanic that seems to have been thrown under the bus as a 'do it yourself' function.

After that, some more low hanging fruit in terms of better melee gear across the board would be enjoyed.

Now to clarify I don't expect any of these to be implemented as they are or in the whole, but it comprises a nice wishlist of things that will bring Red mage as a whole up in performance, without pushing away from the enhancing/enfeebeling catalyst that's been in the class's root design.

Seriha

06-04-2011, 07:00 AM

I realize there is a lot of call for more "Front Line Utility" but in truth there is very little that can be offered that isn't already there, either offered by Red Mage itself through various subjob settings, or flatly via other jobs. Instead of trying to take Red Mage into another direction, I believe we should hone what we already have in place.

As one of my irks when it comes to RDM, throwing your hands up in submission because you can't think of any ideas is not a stance SE should agree with, nor should we support. Now, have other jobs "stolen" things that would've been nice in RDM's hands? Sure. Does that mean the idea well has gone dry? Of course not. Moreover, I'll pass on just yet more tier ups. Quick magic is also a no-no since it could mean nukes going off in your FC gear and so on, basically sacrificing potency when we're desperate for it just to compete with specialists.

Tamarsamar

06-04-2011, 08:38 AM

The problem is, this system was not only archaic but teamwork heavy, and thus slow and inefficient. Nowadays people can self skillchain with relative ease and otherwise spamming skillchains becomes more damage over time efficient. This really limits this utility to low man situations and small parties.

Not to mention, good luck finding anybody who's actually going to co-operate with some random front line geared Red Mage off of the street, in any sense of the word . . .

Neisan_Quetz

06-04-2011, 09:12 AM

That would require random front line Red Mages to stop meleeing in full AF/relic even in this day and age. If it isn't a detriment to other duties I'm not gonna knock it but almost every one I see trying to be frontline mage does it badly.

Duelle

06-04-2011, 10:02 AM

That would require random front line Red Mages to sotp meleeing in full AF/relic even in this day and age. If it isn't a detriment to other duties I'm not gonna knock it but almost every one I see trying to be frontline mage does it badly.That approach doesn't really work, hence why I keep saying front line and back line play need to be different from each other for a hybrid like Red Mage.

Tamarsamar

06-04-2011, 11:58 AM

That approach doesn't really work, hence why I keep saying front line and back line play need to be different from each other for a hybrid like Red Mage.

In the sense of gear, yes, as that's the limitation of a game that so heavily demands min-maxing.

In the sense of practice, if you ever try to do nothing but swing your sword with maybe the occasional cure or self-buff, you're doing it horribly wrong. (Unfortunately you can't say the same thing for doing nothing but spellcasting, but then, that's why this topic exists, no?)

Hyrist

06-04-2011, 03:38 PM

As one of my irks when it comes to RDM, throwing your hands up in submission because you can't think of any ideas is not a stance SE should agree with, nor should we support. Now, have other jobs "stolen" things that would've been nice in RDM's hands? Sure. Does that mean the idea well has gone dry? Of course not. Moreover, I'll pass on just yet more tier ups. Quick magic is also a no-no since it could mean nukes going off in your FC gear and so on, basically sacrificing potency when we're desperate for it just to compete with specialists.

A few falacies in there Seriha

On 'new ideas':

It's not throwing your hands up for the sake of lack of ideas. It's a matter of shifting the entire direction of a job based off of one crux utility. You're looking for a golden update which I say is just plain naive. Work with the system we have and modify it so it performs better, instead of looking for the 'shiney utility' that's going to change everyone minds about RDM front lining.

As far as getting more Tier ups, that is inevitable. Having what we're more or less designed to get function in a way that better suits us in the manners we would desire would be both more realistic, and easier to apply than flat out inventing a new mechanic. Besides, I've already listed a couple 'borrows' already. They just lean more towards the Hybrid approach, utalizing our spells to assist our melee, and proving more ability to streamline our casting which has always been our trend as a job. I'd rather see them preform that aspect correctly and have it work, then scrap it for a new idea that's even more likely to fail.

Quick Cast and Nukes:

It's seriously not hard to place your spell activation at the end of a gearswap macro instead of at the beginning. So your argument against quick cast is flat out null. Though, having control over when your quick cast operates was something I left open as an option for a reason. Either one would function well, an the trait would require only a minor shift in macro usage.

Not to mention, good luck finding anybody who's actually going to co-operate with some random front line geared Red Mage off of the street, in any sense of the word . . .

I'm surprised this statement even comes up, given the current state of the game. Small group activities dominate with only a few 'random pickups' really applying. At this point in the game, you're mostly playing with your friends or long time shell-mates. It's not nearly as difficult to get a bit of co-operation in small time content.

Trying to use the mechanic in huge Abyssea parties, however, just isn't going to work so well.

In the sense of gear, yes, as that's the limitation of a game that so heavily demands min-maxing.

In the sense of practice, if you ever try to do nothing but swing your sword with maybe the occasional cure or self-buff, you're doing it horribly wrong. (Unfortunately you can't say the same thing for doing nothing but spellcasting, but then, that's why this topic exists, no?)

Speaking truthfully, the two roles between front and back line Red Mage are different, in practice. Instead of becoming the primary responsibility for said roles, you are instead filling the gaps, or lightening the burden of your healer and support, as well as teaming up to assist your damage dealers and CC usage. Its a variable job that functions more on improvisation than a set duty, and that's the benefit and curse of it.

The Red Mage changes with the moment's needs, instead of trying to be a consistent. Again, the situation is archaic, but effective in smaller groups. In larger style events we have other methods of levying our trades. But all of this can be streamlined as a whole which, when paired with an increase of melee gear and a touch more healing utility, should be adequate to bringing Red Mage's various roles up to par, not just any single one because of personal preference.

I love Melee, I will always gear and work towards being as affective as I can be in it. But the sting Red Mage feels in terms of effectiveness isn't JUST melee anymore, it's across the board. We have an opportunity to bring Red Mage up to the hybrid it was meant to be utilized as. However, I don't beleive over-focusing on increasing just our melee aspects by creating a specific front line utility for Red Mage is an appropriate answer, as it ignores those who prefer a back line style.

We HAVE front line utilities, be it our old archaic methods (Skillchain opening + Burst), the newer ones that are less widely spread (WS procs, Elemental WS lights), or borrowed through use of subjob (/Dnc step/spell stacking, /War WS procing, /Blu or /Nin soloing or off tanking.) We can add to these if we want, but we're not going to have any better success with them as we did the current ones unless our core functions are further streamlined and better scaled. This starts at our casting and has to bleed into a better gear selection.

However I am of a belief that the streamlining itself will better enable front line usage, in which case the utility we're clamoring for would just be a placebo effect to attract the attention of the common mentality.

This desire for the "Thing that Only a Red Mage can do." Seems to be more focused on having the spotlight effect than a real means of addressing the rudimentary 'hybrid issue' that's been the ongoing argument about Red Mages in front line for years and years.

Duelle

06-04-2011, 05:25 PM

In the sense of practice, if you ever try to do nothing but swing your sword with maybe the occasional cure or self-buff, you're doing it horribly wrong. (Unfortunately you can't say the same thing for doing nothing but spellcasting, but then, that's why this topic exists, no?)With the current design and what is currently on our plate, yes. After a number of changes that kills redundancy and opens up magic combat, no.

A red mage in the front shouldn't be worrying about buff cycles and main healing. The problem is that we don't have the numbers (as in DPS) to back that choice up at the moment. The shift in mentality would be completely possible were it not for that.

Seriha

06-04-2011, 07:03 PM

A few falacies in there Seriha

Hardly. Giving us more of the same, as indicative of tier ups or not giving us new "golden update"ish things will not change where we are. Cure V would just put us back toward pink magery. Procs aside, if people wanted nukes, they'll be going for BLMs and SCHs first and there's no way we'll be getting T5s unless maybe the cap goes to 115 some day or something. I simply cannot see T3 Slow/Para/Blind/Bio/Dia happening because the T2s are merits, so enfeebles are pretty much left to new idea territory. Without a "golden update", you've more or less doomed us to mediocrity before even considering equipment issues.

And Quick Cast is still bad if random. Most of my spells begin by swapping into my fast cast gear (I don't bother with barspells) and switch to potency gear within the cast. You're basically telling me to give up at least 20% FC for something that, at present, maybe goes off 5-10% of the time with the right gear or atma. No thanks. I know casting burden is a problem for our melee, but whatever we get has to be constant and not situationally niche.

Daniel_Hatcher

06-04-2011, 07:11 PM

Seriha

06-04-2011, 07:40 PM

Then you throw off your cycles when the next time you get to the guy you proc'd on it doesn't, then the following goes without for 10s+ and starts bitching about how you're a bad RDM.

Daniel_Hatcher

06-04-2011, 10:25 PM

Now you're just nit-picking.

If people still complain because a buff isn't up in less than 10 seconds from running off they need to get a life outside of this game.

Hyrist

06-04-2011, 11:29 PM

Hardly. Giving us more of the same, as indicative of tier ups or not giving us new "golden update"ish things will not change where we are. Cure V would just put us back toward pink magery. Procs aside, if people wanted nukes, they'll be going for BLMs and SCHs first and there's no way we'll be getting T5s unless maybe the cap goes to 115 some day or something. I simply cannot see T3 Slow/Para/Blind/Bio/Dia happening because the T2s are merits, so enfeebles are pretty much left to new idea territory. Without a "golden update", you've more or less doomed us to mediocrity before even considering equipment issues.

And Quick Cast is still bad if random. Most of my spells begin by swapping into my fast cast gear (I don't bother with barspells) and switch to potency gear within the cast. You're basically telling me to give up at least 20% FC for something that, at present, maybe goes off 5-10% of the time with the right gear or atma. No thanks. I know casting burden is a problem for our melee, but whatever we get has to be constant and not situationally niche.

See, now I know you're not even reading.

The one inevitable tier up I mentioned in my entire debate, was Enspells, one that I beleive we need. My one wish is that they would function line more powerful Enspell I's that don't confict with a Dancer's Samba effect. Otherwise it would have to be pretty steller and/or possibly "First Hit" activation only. Because 5%-10% attack delay is a hard act to follow.

As far as the randomness of Quick cast. You're looking at it in the worst possible light. As far as it upsetting your cycle. That actually is bad skill on your part. If you can't simply say "Hey, cool, it proced!" and enjoy your free time while it comes time for your next member on the cycle, then you deserved to be called "Bad". Though, if people are crying over a matter of a few seconds, you're hanging with the wrong crowd to begin with. There's 0 reason to put up with that sort of attitude in today's game.

The Recast benefit of Quick cast would be best used for things like cures and nukes if you the need and can afford the quick MP drain.

But all of this would be moot if quick cast worked on a JA timer. I agree that it's a better tool to be able to do this manually, and I prefer it that way. However, having it on a trait woulden't be nearly the nightmare you're playing it out to be.

As far as increasing the Red Mage's healing ability, I'd favor Regen III over Cure V, however consitering White Mage has merits AND another tier to cover regen Cure V is likely what is going to happen. If so I'd like to see it implmented at a truncated potency compared to the White Mage version. But as far as completely avoiding pink magery, again, that's a naive prospect, unless we gain absoutely nothing more in the healing department.

Seeming there's an entire grouping of Red Mages that are in arms about not having Cure V as it is, what right do we have to tread on their playstyle of the job when we've been clammoring for years to have more respect for ours? Pot callking kettle black.

Instead, what needs to happen is to better enable front lining. If you create a frontline update with some awesome utility that is going make everyone to want Red Mages in the front line, you're going to trample on those who've adapted and enjoy the back line methods as they get told suddenly they need that melee gear to perform that golden utility you're asking for.

Put plainly, choosing whether to melee, or not to melee, needs to NOT matter, in the eyes of the playerbase. Rather to be some important thing to argue one way or another over, it can be a 'do what you want, you can go either way.' Set up. And while for most of the events now being laughable in difficulty or lowmanned, this has done well for that approach in many aspects of the game.

However, for it to be a global opinion two things need to happen.

1. Our base melee preformance need to be brought up to par. (WS Damage, Gear availability.)
2. Our casting aspects need to be streamlined for ease of use in the faster paced gaming envrioment.

This is just referring to aiding in a unalateral improvement to Red Mage to improve melee.

As far as inproving the 'direction of the job', RDM's direction has always been variable, functioning as a catalyst. This may be consitered a redundancy and unneded, but that is more a matter of tastes. (You're not obligated to have a Red Mage in FFI, but you can.) There are those who are obsessed with the statistical 'best' and Red Mage, by it's very nature, clashes with this. You're never going to reconcile these opposites.

( Just a note: For all the humm and hawing on how Red Mage is the Melee caster, people tend to forget, that all of Red Mage's abilities in the previous games were centered around casting[both in FFI and FFV]. Best thing RDM had in melee department, was default attack with well chosen weapons, enhanced magic effects. I don't see that changing.)

As far as 'new' spells an utilities for Red Mage. We're still missing a unique Enfeebeling Magic spell of the Thunder Element. I'd like to see this filled in by the time we hit 99, and can be a wide variety of possiblities. However, giving the choice, I would prefer it be something that can hamper TP attacks: The one department we do not have an enfeeble for and are feeling rather cheated on right now.

Seriha

06-05-2011, 02:00 AM

I don't mind our healing improving, but not with Cure V. It's the lazy and uninspired way out. I have zero sympathy for heal-only RDMs, though. They're playing the wrong job. As is, backlining offers its own benefits in safety and slightly lesser distraction. Those looking to be up front not only need justification, but a strong benefit to it, and that will not be achieved solely through T3 enspells (Let's try fixing our T2s first), Cure V, or our T4 nuke line fleshing out. Baby steps might've worked at 75, but we're past that phase with other jobs now being leaps and bounds ahead.

Uncontrolled Quick Magic will still be bad no matter how you try to justify it, though, and if you're relying on such for dire cures, you're probably gonna have a dead tank after enough time, anyway.

Just look around at all the other melee naysayers. They have our "role" decided for us already. You best hasting, refreshing, curing, and possibly crowd controlling. Some might profess they don't care what you're doing after, but let's face it, those suck up time and sabotages melee performance from the start in both swapping out of your gear and just not being able to swing as often as the dedicated DD. I ask, quite simply, what is wrong with RDM receiving the means to physically DD exclusively in an acceptable manner? "Because you can do everything else!"? I'm sorry, but I must've missed the infinite MP memo for life outside Abyssea. Someone get back to me when this proverbial super RDM is main healing, nuking, enfeebling, buffing, and meleeing for a DD's keep without breaking a sweat, because even in Abyssea, doing one of those comes at the potential expense of another.

Duelle

06-05-2011, 02:59 AM

As far as the randomness of Quick cast. You're looking at it in the worst possible light. As far as it upsetting your cycle. That actually is bad skill on your part. If you can't simply say "Hey, cool, it proced!" and enjoy your free time while it comes time for your next member on the cycle, then you deserved to be called "Bad". Though, if people are crying over a matter of a few seconds, you're hanging with the wrong crowd to begin with. There's 0 reason to put up with that sort of attitude in today's game.You're forgetting how focused on efficacy the playerbase still is. Abyssea hasn't done anything to kill that mentality. If only put it to sleep for the moment because buff cycling during the entirety of abyssea was not necessary, hence all the complaining about how RDM had no purpose.

Seeming there's an entire grouping of Red Mages that are in arms about not having Cure V as it is, what right do we have to tread on their playstyle of the job when we've been clammoring for years to have more respect for ours? Pot callking kettle black.They've had more than their fill and they can still heal? We, on the other hand have been tread on since the Refresh changed the game for us and it hasn't changed since then.

Put plainly, choosing whether to melee, or not to melee, needs to NOT matter, in the eyes of the playerbase. Rather to be some important thing to argue one way or another over, it can be a 'do what you want, you can go either way.' Set up. And while for most of the events now being laughable in difficulty or lowmanned, this has done well for that approach in many aspects of the game.That leaves redundancy. It'd be better to simply let the meleers bring one thing to the party and the back liners bring something else. Hence why I mention front lining should not involve buff cycles.

However, for it to be a global option two things need to happen.

1. Our base melee preformance need to be brought up to par. (WS Damage, Gear availability.)
2. Our casting aspects need to be streamlined for ease of use in the faster paced gaming envrioment.

This is just referring to aiding in a unalateral improvement to Red Mage to improve melee.This I'm fine with.

As far as inproving the 'direction of the job', RDM's direction has always been variable, functioning as a catalyst. This may be consitered a redundancy and unneded, but that is more a matter of tastes. (You're not obligated to have a Red Mage in FFI, but you can.) There are those who are obsessed with the statistical 'best' and Red Mage, by it's very nature, clashes with this. You're never going to reconcile these opposites.If you sacrifice class functionality just to keep the class as a generalist, this is true. The problem is, the generalist design doesn't work and has been abandoned in modern game design for MMOs for good reason. Because at the end of the day, you get stuck with mezzing, healing, or "support" as in this game, no matter what your intentions with the class' hybrid nature were when you rolled the class.

It works in single player RPGs where no one cares about being overpowered or lacking in DPS, but MMOs are a complete different ballgame, and is something the original dev team for XI never concidered when bringing RDM over.

For all the humm and hawing on how Red Mage is the Melee caster, people tend to forget, that all of Red Mage's abilities in the previous games were centered around casting[both in FFI and FFV]. Best thing RDM had in melee department, was default attack with well chosen weapons, enhanced magic effects. I don't see that changing.It's called helping adapt something that would otherwise not fit into the context of MMOs. Again, generalists are not a detriment to play in single player RPGs. The idea does not translate well into MMOs. Never has, and never will. Take it from someone who has been there before, been told to shut up and heal until those major updates that made my class go from zero to acceptable in the melee department. It'd also kill the word game SE loves to play with us, naming our gear with combat-related things yet the class as it is has little to do with front-line combat.

If people still complain because a buff isn't up in less than 10 seconds from running off they need to get a life outside of this game.We've been conditioned to feel that way due to how long that mentality prevailed. Specially so for those of us who've been around since pre-CoP. It's not a bad thing. Just a sign of how a playerbase can damage the members within it.

Daniel_Hatcher

06-05-2011, 04:27 AM

For those that think RDM shouldn't Melee anyway, look at all the topics SE release on the main page, including the video of the new Sword.

I'll give a clue, they almost all feature a RDM melee'ing. So the question lies, even SE think RDM should Melee, so why shouldn't they make it acceptable for RDM to do so with gear, buffs or even enhancing magic (our supposed second speciality outside of enfeebling.)

ManaKing

06-06-2011, 04:43 AM

I'm personally against Quick magic being part of RDM. It doesn't seem to serve any purpose except for me to use my finite MP pool, unwisely. Quick magic is Rapidshot for mages, but mages and ranged DPS aren't the same. Rapidshot is a great idea for ranged attack because you shouldn't run out of ammo as a RNG or a COR and all it does is increase your DPS.

I'm also against Cure V. We aren't healing specialists, we don't need to be stepping on people's toes. What we need is our own toes to stand on.

We could really use some RDM only utility, because everything that is good about RDM has been taken by other mages at this point and all we are left with is being told NO.

What we lack is gear consideration, job abilities, and spells that are functional and up to date in the current climate. That way we could be our own job.

Speaking truthfully, the two roles between front and back line Red Mage are different, in practice. Instead of becoming the primary responsibility for said roles, you are instead filling the gaps, or lightening the burden of your healer and support, as well as teaming up to assist your damage dealers and CC usage. Its a variable job that functions more on improvisation than a set duty, and that's the benefit and curse of it.

I would love to believe you, and mind you i feel that's how it should be as well, but that is not how it is. People don't want you for anything but Haste and Phallanx, maybe refresh, but probably not. If you have difficulty seeing RDM in the worst possible light, than i don't think you really have played RDM for very long. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but that is what I have to be to defend my favorite Job. We can share this job, but I'm not letting it slip into further mediocrity. Unless we get the 'golden update' that we are looking for, we are going to be playing the most mediocre class in the game.

Hyrist, you can say whatever you want on these forums, as can everyone. I'm just going to point out that a wall of text is a poor way to communicate. A lot of what you have posted has been gone over before which is why Seriha and Duelle take up such hard counter-stances. If you aren't going to read the 35+ pages of post on this topic thus far, you have to realize you don't care about anyone opinion but your own.

Daniel_Hatcher

06-06-2011, 05:18 AM

'm also against Cure V. We aren't healing specialists, we don't need to be stepping on people's toes. What we need is our own toes to stand on.

It isn't about being healing specialists, we should never have the same highest tier spell as any other job subbing /whm and soon /rdm. We got Tier IV nukes as DRK was getting Tier III, we got Refresh II as Refresh one was made available subjob level, so it's a joke not to have a higher tier Cure.

We could really use some RDM only utility, because everything that is good about RDM has been taken by other mages at this point and all we are left with is being told NO.

What we lack is gear consideration, job abilities, and spells that are functional and up to date in the current climate. That way we could be our own job.

I don't disagree with this.

ManaKing

06-06-2011, 05:41 AM

It isn't about being healing specialists, we should never have the same highest tier spell as any other job subbing /whm and soon /rdm. We got Tier IV nukes as DRK was getting Tier III, we got Refresh II as Refresh one was made available subjob level, so it's a joke not to have a higher tier Cure.

So long as Red Knight is available, i don't really care if Pink mage is as well.

But they need to come out at the same time. We don't need anymore precedent tell us how to play our job.

Hyrist

06-06-2011, 08:55 AM

Forgive me if I cluster some of these statements together as you guys seem to be parroting each other.

Cure V... Is likely inevitable. You can call it lazy, uninspired, dangerous, or every other insult you wish, but the only argument against this spell is the fear of Red Mage being pigeon-holed into the healer role. A fear I share. However, if streamlines and updates to Red Mage are done properly, the fact that we have Cure V won't matter.

Those who have played Red Mages on the front lines for years, have done so spiting the so called 'common wisdom' of players. It was simply the only way to prove that it was viable. This truth will be neigh impossible to change without breaking the job entirely, or both reasserting and streamlining our initial contributions to a party, ON TOP of some sort of additional utility (or further emphasis on what we have).

Generalist vs Specalist
There is two facts that need to be acknowledged about Red Mage.

1. It is a Generalist, period. There is no changing this without cutting out half of it's spell library and abilities. This is both the blessing and the curse of the job. However...

2. It HAS a Specialist Function 2 actually.: Enfeebling and Enhancing. But they both have problems right now.

Enfeebling:
In the rapid increase in melee performance that has done nothing but climb over the years, enfeebling has become less and less of a prominent role. This is a flaw in the game's design, not with the design of Red Mage as a class. If we are going to be important, for a large group role, there needs to be a reason why enfeebles are useful.

This means:

- Monsters need to endure long enough for applications of enfeebles to be useful
and/or
- We need to have the ability to apply multiple debuffs upon a monster instantaneously or through a very short time period.

Additionally
- Boss Monsters need to be more vulnerable to enfeebles in general.

Right now as it stands, procs have supplanted our reason for being in the enfeebling department.

Enhancing:

Enhancing, should be our secondary role, but has become our primary due to how efficiently monsters are slain. However, as it stands, what we offer as enhancers is outdone by every other existing support class out there. As much as Seriha comments about Red Mages not having infinite MP pools outside of Abyssea, this is in complete ignorance of the fact that evey other MP pool of every other mage class nearly doubled when Convert became available via subjob. Additionally, Refresh is such a readily available commodity with the advent of Refresh being subable , and Red Mage gaining Refresh II, that a Red Mage's own 'support' role has become unneeded.

Before we even touch the Melee aspect, this issue needs to be regarded. NOT by simply adjusting Red Mage, though some issues can be addressed this way (debuff-ga spells would solve debuffing multiple cannon-fodder issue. This should not be tied to a particular subjob either). The large group gameplay mechanic needs to change.

Front Line Utility

This needs it's own topic, as 'Melee' is a hornet's nest of issues. I may start a new topic myself to focus this topic and allow us to break it down further. But I'll touch the basics here.

Whatever 'Utility' we have in front line, it will break down into these basics.

Abilities that inflict new/increase existing enfeebeling effects on the monster.
Abilities that create new or increase existing enhancing effects on the party.
Abilities that inflict greater damage.
Abilities that recover the party.

That's the fundamental roots for every ability in this game, and the majority of them are covered. Keep in mind, that we're also balancing against our already superb soloing ability.

Front Line and Back Line Roles

As much as people believe the common wisdom that Red Mage should cycle in the front line. It's simply not how it operates in practice. Ask members that have doing it for getting close to a decade now such as myself, Zafire, Starfox, and a plethora of others who have been doggedly sticking to this sort of function on Red Mage since our first days in Vana'Diel. As Seriha has been so keen to point out, our own MP pools are not limited, and casting time HARMS our general output. But if there is to be any encouragement made to Red Mage front lines, it MUST be done on the premise that doing so limits our other functions of support. Or else any change is going to fall flat under the argument "You' still need to refresh!"

There are two methods that I can see working to enforce this:

1. A short duration, stacking enfeeble related directly to our melee. (Read: A stacking en-debuff.)
2. A stance that further hampers our repeat casting as Composure did in extending our recast timers.

Personally I would prefer the first. However, to accomplish that, what buffs we do spread around, like haste and Refresh II, would have to be extended in duration, THUS I mentioned first post I ever made on these boards, that Composure needs to function on party targets natively, even if it is just a reduced effectiveness. That way at least we're able to provide some support to parties while adding this utility. Put plainly, I don't' believe our front line utility should supplant the job as a whole.

Quick-Cast

Some form of Double Cast should have been a root part of Red Mage well before this point, and I'm not just talking our 2 hour ability. Right now, we suffer from a casting load problem, be it front line or back. Fast Cast simply does not meet the demands when cycling, and while a Composure increase could regard this partially, a controlled quick cast would increase our overall functionality considerably in every department. In the situation in which you would have say, 2 other people to refresh besides yourself, this ability would the 'cycle' concept neatly.

As far as increasing your MP drain with it, that would be a balance factor to the ability, and would keep Nuke-Spamming with it in check. But it still would assist our utility in say, taking advantage of an accidental Skillchain to burst on. (Or double bursting on a planned one.)

In the end, it's an accessory. One that would further assist in the streamlining of the job's current functions. As we're seeing a passive form being put to use in game mechanics already, it shouldn't be a stretch for SE to finally give Red Mage this ability (preferably as a JA).

Anyways, there's quite a bit of work that would need to be done to Red Mage to make it viable. My point is you can't simply tack on a new mechanic to an existing base without fixing the broken base, and a lot of it has to do with the surrounding gameplay, not just Red Mage itself.

As a personal note to ManaKing.

As Seriha can attest to this, I've been playing Red Mage a very, very long time. It is my only passion in FFXI and truly the only job I'll ever invest in. (I'll put it this way. FFXIV won't hold a candle with me until they implement the job in there, I'm that attached/obsessed.)

As far as the long posts, you're going to have to get used to them. A 35 page argument on Red Mage front line is nothing compared to the years of debate and analysis that has been done on this subject. The condition of the job as it is now is just re-stirring a very old pot.

That said, breaking apart the subject matter into separate threads would be helpful keeping my post size smaller.

Seriha

06-06-2011, 09:01 AM

I'm sure WARs would love it if they could get Berserk II, because it's not fair everyone 30+ can sub them and it be just as effective. Hint: There's more to the healing game than simply a cure tier. So, let all these /WHMs stealing our jerbs march in without their hMP gear, enfeebles, fast cast, and an actual MP pool and can actually do things without atma holding them up.

As for Hyrist, if I'm not mistaken, a fair chunk of his RDM experience comes through duoing with his DNC friend/girlfriend/wife or whatever. I wouldn't call a consistent duo or mini-static your typical RDM environment, nor does it readily subject you to the demands and horrors of the PUG experience. I don't miss breaking my back at 75 for my LS pretending to be a WHM in RDM's clothing, and I am opposed to those days returning. Regardless of then and now, the freedom to play how we wish doesn't exist in a truly compromising manner. There's a preferred side with all its "rules" and expectations. Meanwhile, a third of the job collects dust, okayed only when we're solo (and thus not "wasting" the time of our rule-setters) or doing things that don't matter. To be blunt, anything we do in game should matter, as it otherwise implies a lack of purpose.

Hyrist

06-06-2011, 09:04 AM

You are Mistaken.

Ex Fiancee was a WHM, I barely played with her due to the job dynamics that kept WHM and RDM seperate from each other.

My current friend I play with is a Dancer, who I do Duo with currently.

Neither of these make the majority of my playtime.

I'd like it if you'd quit dismissing me based off of false presumptions. Even while I was not playing, I was following the RDM dynamic very closely. It's nothing less than an obsession.

Hyrist

06-06-2011, 09:08 AM

As an additional note, you're taking what I say out of the context of the posts. To go back two posts now, what I meant when I said that taking the front or back line shouldn't matter, is that each aspect of Red Mage should come with a viable, acknowledgment benefit. To the point where, for some odd reason, you're stuck with two Red Mages in the group, having them preform with one in the back line, and one in the front, would not be met with horrible redundancy.

ManaKing

06-06-2011, 10:06 AM

As a personal note to ManaKing.

As Seriha can attest to this, I've been playing Red Mage a very, very long time. It is my only passion in FFXI and truly the only job I'll ever invest in. (I'll put it this way. FFXIV won't hold a candle with me until they implement the job in there, I'm that attached/obsessed.)

As far as the long posts, you're going to have to get used to them. A 35 page argument on Red Mage front line is nothing compared to the years of debate and analysis that has been done on this subject. The condition of the job as it is now is just re-stirring a very old pot.

That said, breaking apart the subject matter into separate threads would be helpful keeping my post size smaller.

Welcome aboard and thank you. I don't expect you to post smaller responses because I asked you, I'm just saying it is easier to respond to specific ideas when they are bite sized instead of an entire page.

Seriha

06-06-2011, 10:23 AM

The same redundancy pretty much exists with WHM, which was partly why we got stuck shouldering EXP parties in the ToAU days. And really, unless SE did something god awful like make the Haste spell stackable up to magic cap from different people, there's nothing that can really change existing redundancies between RDMs without adding new and unique things. If the back-liner wanted to Haste, Refresh, use our current enfeebles, and main heal? More power to 'em. Meanwhile, the new stuff most definitely needs the melee slant, and whatever it is needs to justify the "risk" of the RDM being up front to both themselves and the party. Anything short of that will change nothing and may as well be another Shield Mastery update.

In short, we have to offer good damage, stronger utility (be it buffs or debuffs), or some combination of the two. And allowing any of that to be done from afar pretty much defeats the purpose, as it's back to slapping the staves to our backs and playing back-line mage.

As for how you play, it doesn't change my implied point, and that's how a RDM can't put their flag up with a DD sub explaining that they're only interested in meleeing in a search comment only to either never receive an invite or get harassed into trying to be a healer. People being desperate for support is one thing, but our martial side simply isn't even a consideration to the general populace, and for mathematically backed reasons that all tie to into equipment and (fixable) game mechanics. While we're not exactly apart on the want for each side to have its purpose, I'm of the mind that our mage end is pretty much set (short of SE going full-tilt on the enfeebler aspect, but that can also include melee integration). On the other, seeing people like RCD babble about how RDM melee is fine while he runs around with underleveled subs and bad math dumps isn't helping, nor do people who live in these magical worlds where community perceptions and stereotypes seemingly don't apply. In effect, if you can't PUG without getting your ass reamed by all the naysayers, it's not enough.

Duelle

06-06-2011, 10:26 AM

There is two facts that need to be acknowledged about Red Mage.

1. It is a Generalist, period. There is no changing this without cutting out half of it's spell library and abilities.False. Adjustments in potency, resources consumed and such can be the pivot points of the class depending on what you want to do. The goal there is to keep your utility intact while still being proficient at the role you, the player, has chosen. Cures being more expensive or more inconvenient to cast outside of mechanics that allow you to do so, nukes costing more and/or having shorter cast ranges and so on.

2. It HAS a Specialist Function 2 actually.: Enfeebling and Enhancing. But they both have problems right now.

Enfeebling:
In the rapid increase in melee performance that has done nothing but climb over the years, enfeebling has become less and less of a prominent role. This is a flaw in the game's design, not with the design of Red Mage as a class. If we are going to be important, for a large group role, there needs to be a reason why enfeebles are useful.It's not necessary to make enfeebles super important. A part of what we bring to the table, sure. The whole bag, no.

Additionally
- Boss Monsters need to be more vulnerable to enfeebles in general.Yes and no. More enfeebles working on a boss is fine, provided enfeebling as a whole gets a facelift to make it part of the front or back line roles without being an entire role in and of itself.

Enhancing:

Enhancing, should be our secondary role, but has become our primary due to how efficiently monsters are slain. However, as it stands, what we offer as enhancers is outdone by every other existing support class out there. As much as Seriha comments about Red Mages not having infinite MP pools outside of Abyssea, this is in complete ignorance of the fact that evey other MP pool of every other mage class nearly doubled when Convert became available via subjob. Additionally, Refresh is such a readily available commodity with the advent of Refresh being subable , and Red Mage gaining Refresh II, that a Red Mage's own 'support' role has become unneeded.

Before we even touch the Melee aspect, this issue needs to be regarded. NOT by simply adjusting Red Mage, though some issues can be addressed this way (debuff-ga spells would solve debuffing multiple cannon-fodder issue. This should not be tied to a particular subjob either). The large group gameplay mechanic needs to change.The support role again should be a minor facet of Red Mage, not the whole by which our party value is measured. As I've constantly said, I wouldn't mind if Refresh was an effect that affected the whole group that procced after using my suggested JA, Spellblade. That makes refresh a tertiary, thus minor, aspect of the class. It also kills the stupid busy work approach SE took when they gave RDM refresh and haste.

As much as people believe the common wisdom that Red Mage should cycle in the front line. It's simply not how it operates in practice. Ask members that have doing it for getting close to a decade now such as myself, Zafire, Starfox, and a plethora of others who have been doggedly sticking to this sort of function on Red Mage since our first days in Vana'Diel. As Seriha has been so keen to point out, our own MP pools are not limited, and casting time HARMS our general output. But if there is to be any encouragement made to Red Mage front lines, it MUST be done on the premise that doing so limits our other functions of support. Or else any change is going to fall flat under the argument "You' still need to refresh!"This I can agree with. This is why I've sided with the stances approach over all else. And why I'm so in support of mechanics that focus on front-lining while slightly (relative term, but I for one would not miss buff cycling and always being on cure duty) hindering support.

ManaKing

06-06-2011, 11:11 AM

I'll say it right now, any debate that is hinged of RDMs amazing soloing potential is absolute garbage. Just because we can do it naturally as a main doesn't mean that it is any amazing feat that should limit our development. /NIN and /DNC are both extremely potent and extremely effective for soloing on almost every single job in the game. Just because we don't need them isn't a reason we should be neglected and passed over, consistently.

What NIN, DNC, or THF main has any trouble doing anything that a RDM does currently in solo play?

Duelle

06-06-2011, 05:00 PM

So long as Red Knight is available, i don't really care if Pink mage is as well.

But they need to come out at the same time. We don't need anymore precedent tell us how to play our job.Erm...huh? Did I miss something here? 0.o

Supersun

06-06-2011, 05:37 PM

Who opened up the can of expired debates. Time to post the cliff notes I guess.

Curing
No way around it. We do need some sort of cure buff. When nearly 6-7 other jobs can heal better then you inside of abyssea and by 99 unless something is done those job will be able to cure better then us outside abyssea as well something needs to be done.

That being said, like Seriha mentioned Cure 5 is just lazy. We are already facing a major homogenization of all the mages at 99 and adding Cure 5 to Red Mage isn't going to help the issue.

The ideal solution in my opinion would be to create another type of cure that we could spam when Cure 4's recast is down. From there create some sort of powerful enfeebling effect that would protect whoever is getting curbed long enough for you to spam your cures to recover him back to full.

Keep in mind this alternate cure spell doesn't need to be a spike cure like all our current cures. There are plenty of other ways to create a healing spell.

There are some other good ideas out there as well with other ways to fix Rdm healing without tagging on a 5.

Enhancing
Red Mage is a terrible enhancer. Look at your spell list. Now how many enhancing spells do you have that you can actually cast on other people natively? Pretty much it sums down to Protect, Shell, Haste, Refresh, and Phalanx. Now look at how many Whm or Sch can cast on othher people...yeah it's a lot more.

The only reason we were ever considered good enhancers was because we were the only job with the big 4. Haste, Refresh, Convert, and Cure 4. By 99 all of those will be available to /rdm.

Really, the only thing we will have left byh 99 is Refresh II which is VASTLY inferior to other forms of refresh due to it not stacking with mages Refresh 1 from /rdm.

Interestingly enough they seem to have passed the enhancing role to Scholar instead. I mean look how many new enhancing spells they can AoE to the party (ignore the fact that they all suck. Only a matter of time before they get a good one).

Back line
This may be blunt but honestly it's how the game is evolving.

If you play Red Mage solely to backline for any other primary reason except to be an enfeebler it's time to switch jobs.

Every other possible back line role that Rdm has a chance of growing into has been taken by another role INCLUDING the role of a back line generalist (Scholar).

Enfeebling is the only niche left to Red Mage. Healing, Buffing, Nuking, and every in between is better performed by other jobs.

And even still unless SE does some drastic changes I don't even see much of a future for enfeebling. All enfeebling is just a means to an end. Ultimately you are just trying to keep your party alive long enough to kill the monster (and proc in the process). The issue is that enfeebling atm is by far a vastly inferior way of damage mitigation compared to other methods.

Like you mentioned a lot would be fixed by adding some decent way to actually inhibit TP attacks, but as it stands now all enfeebles do is cause your Mnk to counter less and if you really need enfeebles the 5% difference between a Rdms enfeebles and a Whms enfeebles is not worth the difference in healing power by a long shot.

Rdm really only has 2 directions to grow in as a role. An enfeebler or a melee generalist. Luckily these 2 aren't exclusive. Enfeebling by nature tends not to take a long time leaving the rest of the time to be a melee generalist.

As for specific ideas. We've already posted a ton in whatever melee threads have cropped up on these forums. But as it stands atm as the 3rd or 4th worst melee job in the game (even behind Brd and Whm) there's certainly plenty of leeway to grow.

Duelle

06-06-2011, 05:54 PM

And even still unless SE does some drastic changes I don't even see much of a future for enfeebling. All enfeebling is just a means to an end. Ultimately you are just trying to keep your party alive long enough to kill the monster (and proc in the process). The issue is that enfeebling atm is by far a vastly inferior way of damage mitigation compared to other methods.That is more due to the nature of Final Fantasy debuffs. Paralyze from a comparative perspective is pretty OP by MMO standards. Slow should be much more potent and much more noticable, and probably would be if bosses in XI had actual mechanics and environmental hazards to deal with instead of just knowing when to attack and healing the damage the boss deals. The same applies to Blind, Dia and the elemental resistance debuffs from stuff like Enspell IIs. Bio is more hampered by values being so small (the 5 and 10% AP reductions would be much more visual with bigger HP pools and damage values).

The other side of that problem is that the game has too many options for entirely or mostly avoiding damage taken. Utsusemi and evasion stacking being the culprits. Enfeebling as a whole most likely needs a facelift and needs some streamlining as well.

Runalin

06-06-2011, 06:06 PM

I may not have ten paragraphs of discussion to contribute, but I just want to say, THANK YOU for this thread. I haven't been playing that long, to be honest - on and off for a few years, but altogether, only a few months - and I'm a low level RDM. But ever since I started the game, that was exactly what I wanted when I chose red mage. I absolutely love the class, but even at level 30, I find it hard to get a party when I'm playing melee. I don't want a staff so I can stand around in the back. I want to charge in with the shiny sword that my class is always pictured with, throwing out magic here and there and generally being awesome.

Doombringer

06-06-2011, 08:12 PM

Tamarsamar

06-06-2011, 08:28 PM

Seriha

06-06-2011, 08:53 PM

It's not a matter of potential, they are, and they don't need an Empyrean weapon to do it. Heck, a good WHM can beat a scrub DRK or SAM.

Hyrist

06-07-2011, 02:44 AM

Which is a major point to how far behind our performance has fallen.

Sadly, SE HAS factored our solo potential into the mix when we've talked about enhancing parts of our job. Mainly because this is one of those tired old arguments that keep getting pinned up every time Red Mage says they want something new. Again, I attribute most of the issues we currently have on Red Mage to the player base harping this job into the ground.

But what confuses me here is how everyone wants to say "Red Mage's support elements should not be a primary to the job." When what we're clamoring for is a Front Line Utility.

If it's being in the front and melee with the rest of them is all we want to do, a simple, but significant, attack boost is all that's really needed. (This is including better gear, mind you.)

But if we're going for an actual utility, then we ARE talking support elements, unless the utility specifically applies to us as Red Mages.

Seriha on another board mentioned benefitial stats for RDM depending on which element Enspell we would get. Which is mainly the self-buff way to go.

However I'm more in favor of a single Enspell that increases the potency for all existing debuffs on the monster. Sort of a Melee-saboteur effect. But to do that, we'd also need a debuff that does something about TP moves, to cover the one aspect of monster offense that's been biting us in the butz (and also destroying TP feeding arguments that STILL rear their heads in casual conversation.)

Alternatively, we could have the enspell simply inflict a minor portion of various corresponding debuffs (at once), that has a short duration, and stacks (first strike only to not conflict with Sambas). Essentially, an EN-step effect, that functions for para, slow, blind, addle, and a TP version of Addle in minor degrees that stacks to a limit per strike. This would solve our issue in landing debuffs on mobs in rapid succession. If you have it be its own status effect, it can even stack with existing debuffs doing the same as the previous ability above.

That would be utility, at least. But I'm no more happy that we get out preformed by WHM in the front line aspects than I was five years ago. So perhaps a more straight damage boost would be the better route.

Doombringer

06-07-2011, 03:02 AM

i mentioned "cripple" a few pages back as a way to save time and free up swings (it was basically an all in one enfeeb)

i suppose "en-cripple" would be even better.

Hyrist

06-07-2011, 03:08 AM

FF8 had a similar debuff called Pain.

So I would suppose that a enspell version would be called En-pain.

An adequate name for where it would put the mob.

Duelle

06-07-2011, 03:11 AM

But what confuses me here is how everyone wants to say "Red Mage's support elements should not be a primary to the job." When what we're clamoring for is a Front Line Utility.There's a difference between having utility in the front lines and it being the focus of the job. The reason I argue for more damage (through an increase to our Sword and Dagger rating, native access to more WS, and a buff to enspells) are because at the end of the day utility does not justify you having less DPS than the "real" damage dealers. I've been there before and it fell on its face until a very finely tuned boss showed up that required you to stack all buffs and debuffs you could on him. Which meant you and your melee build did not matter until that point alone.

If it's being in the front and melee with the rest of them is all we want to do, a simple, but significant, attack boost is all that's really needed. (This is including better gear, mind you.)

But if we're going for an actual utility, then we ARE talking support elements, unless the utility specifically applies to us as Red Mages.As I've argued, front-line should be limited to cures alone. Your buffs are for you because you can and should be keeping yourself up when front-lining.

However I'm more in favor of a single Enspell that increases the potency for all existing debuffs on the monster. Sort of a Melee-saboteur effect. But to do that, we'd also need a debuff that does something about TP moves, to cover the one aspect of monster offense that's been biting us in the butz (and also destroying TP feeding arguments that STILL rear their heads in casual conversation.)

Alternatively, we could have the enspell simply inflict a minor portion of various corresponding debuffs (at once), that has a short duration, and stacks (first strike only to not conflict with Sambas). Essentially, an EN-step effect, that functions for para, slow, blind, addle, and a TP version of Addle in minor degrees that stacks to a limit per strike. This would solve our issue in landing debuffs on mobs in rapid succession. If you have it be its own status effect, it can even stack with existing debuffs doing the same as the previous ability above.This should be more a trait attached to Enspells rather than a completely separate spell. Provided enfeebles get a facelift, you could have an enspell slightly increase potency of enfeebles cast by the RDM already on the target and renew their duration per hit. Once you hit the extra potency cap, you're basically renewing the duration of enfeebling effects on the target.

Rather than lessen TP gain, I'd like to see something that "breaks" or destroys some of the TP on the mob. Something like:

Froissement: Weak attack that reduces the TP accumulated by the enemy.

* Affected by main-hand accuracy.
* Requires Sword or Dagger in main-hand slot.
* I'd suggest it be derived from weapon damage x 1.5 or something like that, but the devs might want something a little more complex

ManaKing

06-07-2011, 03:18 AM

Everybody is worried about us potentially out-doing White Mages in the healing department, and personally, after ToAU, I can't blame them.

Am I the only one, however, who's more worried about White Mages potentially out-doing us in the melee department?! Even more-so than the above (which is saying a lot, believe you me), in my opinion, this just plain should not even be thinkable!

You mean out doing us at everything right?

OMG they can't proc blue except for light....which almost no one can....i mean we have tier 3 and most of tier 4....god we suck right now.

As far as a super debuff, you just want bad breath. Just say you want bad breath. Yeah BLU also has bad breath, but w/e.

I think that our enfeebling isnt the problem, because enfeebling isn't integral to the game anymore. You can just beat stuff up now and not worry about tactics because enemies aren't hard. Most mobs aren't capable of dealing with a NIN or a /NIN because shadows and evasion is extremely unbalanced. If you want to give us a reason to debuff, mobs need to be buff enough for other people to care. They currently are not, and certainly not in Aby.

Look at what we actually got out of enfeebling post 75. Break and Addle. Addle actually works and continues to let RDMs throw mud in a mobs eye. RDM can almost completely counter any mage mob in the game, but plenty of other jobs can just beat them to death in less time. Something about us lacking damage. I still like Addle, i'm happy we have it.

But Break is trash. It does nothing for me. It doesn't even debuff. I play RDM/DRK and I will never use break over stun. I would rather use sleep or sleep 2 as well because it might actually do something for me. Enfeebling as a whole has gone downhill, and I don't want the future of our job hinged on it unless something drastic happens that changes it.

I mean think about it really quick, we are the best enfeeblers in the game? NO WE AREN'T! We don't have sleepga native and we dont have sleepga 2 at all. Sleeps save lives, everything else just slows down how quickly people will die. That is why other mages are still better enfeeblers than us and always will be.

Look towards actual utility for RDMs. Enfeebling does not make us desirable.

Deadvinta

06-07-2011, 03:39 AM

After reading this, I became excited to go level Red Mage and build as much Melee as I can. But then I looked at the job trait Fencer and read that Red Mage doesn't get it... But BARD does. What are you thinking, Square Enix?

Seriha

06-07-2011, 03:48 AM

Far as TP feed goes, I'd just be happy with a trait where, upon landing a crit, the mob has its TP reduced by some amount. This could be subject to resists, some mobs could even be immune to it, but the ideal effect should be that the RDM technically doesn't exist when it comes to the mob's TP growth, but they're still otherwise offering their damage. It's basically a subtle blow variant in that regard.

Even building on Enspells, continuous Enstone strikes could up Slow potency, Fire for Addle, and so on. It's not something completely without precedent if you look at COR's Quickdraw.

I'm still partial to my old idea of Enspells building toward a point pool we can invest in either offensive (stronger debuffs and nukes) or defensive (more potent buffs [See: Indirect Haste II] that last longer) boosts.

ManaKing

06-07-2011, 04:03 AM

This should be more a trait attached to Enspells rather than a completely separate spell. Provided enfeebles get a facelift, you could have an enspell slightly increase potency of enfeebles cast by the RDM already on the target and renew their duration per hit. Once you hit the extra potency cap, you're basically renewing the duration of enfeebling effects on the target.

Rather than lessen TP gain, I'd like to see something that "breaks" or destroys some of the TP on the mob. Something like:

Hate to dog on you but you just described COR and DRK. Both are really fun to play when you think of them like a RDM.

RDM/COR would have been awesome if we could use Quick Shot with a Bow. I would personally love Marksmanship on a RDM so that we could do that.

Absorb TP is a really good spell and very available to RDM. RDM/DRK is a lot of fun and I would advise anyone to try it out instead of just doing /DNC and /NIN.

One of the biggest problems that I have with RDM right now, is that if I wanted to play 'smart' I would be /NIN or /DNC, or just not play RDM at all. Both NIN and DNC have their overwhelming strengths because of how good dual wield is and shadows/sambas are just really good no matter what they are subbed on. But /DRK feels a lot more like what I always wanted my RDM to be. My DRK as well, for that matter.

I get really good magics, including a stun, the ability to gain TP on offensive magics, actual JAs, and bonus attack damage. You also don't feed as much TP as I do, but I can absorb it from the mob.

BUT You will out DPS me. My weapon skills may hit harder. If we both have an Almace, you win because you will get an offhand hit with your dual wield. I can throw all of my JAs, and I do and love doing it, and still get the higher WS damage. But I'll take half of my life in damage to do so and people won't think it is appropriate for me to use my own cures on myself.

Supersun

06-07-2011, 04:04 AM

Far as TP feed goes, I'd just be happy with a trait where, upon landing a crit, the mob has its TP reduced by some amount. This could be subject to resists, some mobs could even be immune to it, but the ideal effect should be that the RDM technically doesn't exist when it comes to the mob's TP growth, but they're still otherwise offering their damage. It's basically a subtle blow variant in that regard.

Only issue with that is outside of abyssea this trait will rarely ever activate since Rdm has crap for dex gear and will likely never even get CLOSE to where Dex-Agi matters.

ManaKing

06-07-2011, 04:08 AM

Only issue with that is outside of abyssea this trait will rarely ever activate since Rdm has crap for dex gear and will likely never even get CLOSE to where Dex-Agi matters.

Maybe if you absorbed DEX and then absorbed AGI like i do, you wouldn't have that problem.

Seriha

06-07-2011, 04:11 AM

ManaKing

06-07-2011, 04:16 AM

Could do that, or use the eventual Gain-DEX. And as I babbled on Alla with Hyrist's hinting, Enthunder could add a crit rate boost reflective of the damage you deal, so 21% if you can do 21 damage with it.

Gain Dex is going to be great for me, but I will point out that absorbing dex and agi raises my Dex 20 points and lowers their agi 20 points. That's a 40 point difference for calculating crit.

Also, for those that don't know, you can stack gain and absorb stats. Also, you can absorb more than 1 stat at a time. I do gain MND, abs MND, STR, and lastly INT on mobs before I do Sanguine Blade. You hit much harder.

ManaKing

06-07-2011, 04:27 AM

I still think our lack of Fencer and extremely poor shield selection is one of the things that needs to be fixed. If you could get stats on a shield that were as good as on a weapon, I don't think we would need NIN or DNC as the default subs for front line.

As a whole, I think RDM is lacking and it needs to stop using NIN and DNC to cover it's deficiencies.

Stylin

06-07-2011, 04:34 AM

If you could get stats on a shield that were as good as on a weapon, I don't think we would need NIN or DNC as the default subs for front line.

That's really a problem with shields as a whole.

Hyrist

06-07-2011, 04:45 AM

Actually, in terms of an Anti-TP debuff, I was thinking more along the lines of an anti TP MOVE Debuff.

In this respect, we can take a page straight from Addle: Increase "casting time" for TP moves and reduce it's the TP Move's effectiveness. (Blind is covered, so in this sense, a reduced TP modifier for the enemy's moves?)

Having that debuff would really offset our impact on the enemy TP moves especially if we can increase it's effect by using a corresponding enspell (be it Enpain like my previous suggestion, or just integrating it into our current Enspell line or add another tier that does so).

The main problem I have with existing Enspells enhancing debuffs, however, is it does not address the repeat application issues in situations that involve monsters being killed in quick succession. If it inflicted a stack-able version of the debuff instead of just enhancing an existing one, if we do end up in situations that call for monsters that are usually dead too fast to debuff, at least then we'll be able use the utility in that manner. But that can be integrated into new or existing Enspells.

Edit: However, if we do it that way, what happens to Enaero? "chance of Silence?" Then we're going to run into proc rate issues across the board.

As far as Ninja and Dancer. I have absolutely no problem as these classes as subjobs, but I tend to keep my subjob usage variable depending on my circumstances. I'm not beyond using /blm in situations I might needs Ga spells or /war /blu /pld in various circumstances. I don't view it as making up for deficiencies as much as helping a generalist push in a specific direction for a specific purpose.

Supersun

06-07-2011, 05:00 AM

Hyrist

06-07-2011, 05:45 AM

I agree. Our Native Dark Magic skill isn't really up to snuff in most situations to allow for Absorb Spells to be used reliably on anything but fodder, and if you're fighting fodder, you're essentially able to Sub WAR/NIN/BLU to greater effect.

Duelle

06-07-2011, 05:48 AM

Hate to dog on you but you just described COR and DRK. Both are really fun to play when you think of them like a RDM.Not sure I'm following you on that one.

The goal is to make melee relevant. The suggestion is tying it to enfeebling, which I am fine with. If you mean the renewal of debuffs, it'd actually make front-lining beneficial, which matches the goal. Froissement is actually a fencing term, which describes an attack that displaces the opponent's blade using a heavy grazing action. Thus knocking them off rhythm. Changement de Rythme would actually be a better name for the attack, but its too long. >.>;

As a DRK main, I'll also tell you I can tell the difference between absorbing TP from a mob and outright breaking the mob's TP. The latter happens to fit the enfeebling thing, if a little more directly than the other things RDM has in its list.

Akujima

06-07-2011, 06:18 AM

I support this thread 100%

I've been playing RDM Melee, and I can tell you that it's definitely one thing above all else: fun.

RDM seriously needs Fencer and a higher shield skill. Also more equipment that focuses on hybrid melee/caster roles. Tier 2 En~Spells need a fixing so they can proc on double attack and dual wield.

Hyrist

06-07-2011, 06:56 AM

Actually, on the subject of Enspell II line, I dissagree with Akujima.

Enspell II line needs to function like Enspell one's in that it has its magical accuracy and damage determined at time of cast. However I would prefer it remain first hit only so those who dual weild and use multi attack weapons can still gain the effects of Sambas as a benefit.

As a trade off, however, remove the cap on Enspell II's damage climb.

That's right, remove it entirely. It would still be balanced off by the fact that it sitll would not compare to a double/tripple attack build with Enspell I's. But at least this way it would be worth casting and maintaining.

Supersun

06-07-2011, 07:13 AM

Hmm interesting idea.

It's essentially the opposite of Enlight an Endark where they start high and go low, but instead they start low and go high.

Only issue I really see is that they would have to be very careful with gear that enhances buff duration in the future since obviously the balancing factor of a spell like this is the duration of it. Needless to say if the buff lasted something like 2 hours the spell would be broken since in that time we could build the spell to do like WS like damage per melee attack.

Hyrist

06-07-2011, 07:39 AM

We could probably math up what our max damage per hit would be.

Composure Enspell II line lasts 9 minutes

With Cape and boots: 702 seconds (Roughly 11.7 minutes)

So all you got to figure is how many attacks you can get in attacking for 702 seconds and add that to your base enspell damage.

Just a rough estimate. Joyeuse, before haste, constantly hitting, would roughly build up to (Base) + 188 by the time it expires at the end of 702 seconds.

*glee*

ManaKing

06-07-2011, 07:45 AM

Drk certainly has a time and a place.

Sometimes being able to melee and stun is just that valuable.

I will say though that I would use /Drk a lot more if our Dark Skill wasn't so trashy. For most things it's really hard to justify an Abs spell with only a D in dark magic

It's an E in Dark Magic, but please don't call it trashy without trying it. I have almost no problems landing Absorbs with nothing but merited Dark Magic and a Dark Torque. There is about 50 more Dark Magic I could get from equips and I plan on getting as much as I can. Your Drain and Aspir are not good, but all of you absorbs and stuns aren't hard to land with capped Dark Magic.

I would love a higher Dark Magic Skill, but that is not a pressing issue.

That's really a problem with shields as a whole.

Yeah agreed.

Actually, on the subject of Enspell II line, I dissagree with Akujima.

Enspell II line needs to function like Enspell one's in that it has its magical accuracy and damage determined at time of cast. However I would prefer it remain first hit only so those who dual weild and use multi attack weapons can still gain the effects of Sambas as a benefit.

We both agree that ALL Enspells should be calculated off Enhancing magic at the time of cast.

BUT you're probably only thinking of /NIN or /DNC. If you want to use Sambas and Enspells you are probably NIN or DNC already. You have an off hand. Use It. Your problem is already addressed and solved.

I don't disagree with the idea of uncapping the damage on Enspells either. But I would much rather it function on multihits instead.

If you make it so Multi Hit weapons and Double/Tripple/Quadruple attacks play nice with RDM then we will start to have the damage we need, and not just for NIN and DNC. If you want to make sure it doesn't get out of hand, then you make it so that every attack from that round of combat is the same and you only increase the damage by 1, per round of attacks.

A Joyeus is golden again, the Twilight dagger becomes highly desirable, our 2-4 Khanda becomes a very attractive main hand choice, /WAR becomes a legitimate sub, and the Kracken Club is still what every new player in the game dreams about at night.

I would like to see Fencer on RDM and I would like to see Shield Mastery used as well. I'm not trying to take anything away from dual wields, you can still get multi hit weapons in your main hand and better damage than either of us have right now. You can keep your sambas and your additional on hit effects as well. I'll keep my Shield and my Magic, because it is my choice and preference to do so.

Hmm interesting idea.

It's essentially the opposite of Enlight an Endark where they start high and go low, but instead they start low and go high.

Only issue I really see is that they would have to be very careful with gear that enhances buff duration in the future since obviously the balancing factor of a spell like this is the duration of it. Needless to say if the buff lasted something like 2 hours the spell would be broken since in that time we could build the spell to do like WS like damage per melee attack.

Dear GOD a RDM that could actually Melee in their AF3? How dare their AF3 push their job into overdrive like every other jobs AF3 does, FOR SHAME!!!

/end sarcasm

Yeah I'm a jerk. I'm just saying look at every other AF3 in the game, and then look at ours. Everyone else is going bat-shit crazy and we are still just kinda luke warm.

Not sure I'm following you on that one.

The goal is to make melee relevant. The suggestion is tying it to enfeebling, which I am fine with. If you mean the renewal of debuffs, it'd actually make front-lining beneficial, which matches the goal. Froissement is actually a fencing term, which describes an attack that displaces the opponent's blade using a heavy grazing action. Thus knocking them off rhythm. Changement de Rythme would actually be a better name for the attack, but its too long. >.>;

As a DRK main, I'll also tell you I can tell the difference between absorbing TP from a mob and outright breaking the mob's TP. The latter happens to fit the enfeebling thing, if a little more directly than the other things RDM has in its list.

If we are talking about a spell that basically puts a negative STORE TP status on them, then fine. I would love to add that to my enfeebles.

We can already reduce the amount of TP a mob has by /DRK.

If you are saying we should drain TP on hit with every enspell, well IDK. I would want to talk about it more.

As far as enhancing debuffs, COR already does that. I play my COR with my RDM best friend. We make a really good team and she doesn't like to melee her RDM. So just just Debuff things to hell and back.

I want RDM/COR to be viable, so that you can enhance your enfeebles by shooting mobs in the face. I would much rather that kind of change to what RDM can do than adding more complications to RDM. You would be jack of all trades as usual and could use 1 full strength COR roll while you are at it if you wanted to be a backline enfeebling RDM. Just give us a C in marksmanship and we would already have some of the gear for it.

Doombringer

06-07-2011, 08:28 AM

well.. you wouldn't melee in the af3 anyway, you'd just swap it in to cast, then right back out.

also the set bonus on rdm af3 doesn't increase composures duration buff, it extends it to other players we cast on.

so really it's just the cape and boots you gotta worry about.

ManaKing

06-07-2011, 08:44 AM

Exactly. The point is still the same, we would actually get something out of our AF3.

Duelle

06-07-2011, 09:17 AM

If we are talking about a spell that basically puts a negative STORE TP status on them, then fine. I would love to add that to my enfeebles.

We can already reduce the amount of TP a mob has by /DRK.Again, you're not seeing the difference between breaking TP off a mob and draining it from them. DRK's Absorb-TP is well placed because it fits the theme of the class. RDM is warranted to have Froissement to have a different approach to reducing the mob's TP. It isn't complicated nor difficult to see this.

If you are saying we should drain TP on hit with every enspell, well IDK. I would want to talk about it more.I never said that, nor would I want to see that implemented.

As far as enhancing debuffs, COR already does that. I play my COR with my RDM best friend. We make a really good team and she doesn't like to melee her RDM. So just just Debuff things to hell and back.Then simply make said enspell trait renew enfeebling duration. It'd still make melee relevant. The idea is to tie enfeebling into melee rather than making it its own role. Granted, it's not my idea but I do like it.

Supersun

06-07-2011, 09:54 AM

(Rdm actually used to have a Marksmanship skill)

Hyrist

06-07-2011, 03:51 PM

We both agree that ALL Enspells should be calculated off Enhancing magic at the time of cast.

BUT you're probably only thinking of /NIN or /DNC. If you want to use Sambas and Enspells you are probably NIN or DNC already. You have an off hand. Use It. Your problem is already addressed and solved.

I don't disagree with the idea of uncapping the damage on Enspells either. But I would much rather it function on multihits instead.

If you make it so Multi Hit weapons and Double/Tripple/Quadruple attacks play nice with RDM then we will start to have the damage we need, and not just for NIN and DNC. If you want to make sure it doesn't get out of hand, then you make it so that every attack from that round of combat is the same and you only increase the damage by 1, per round of attacks.

A Joyeus is golden again, the Twilight dagger becomes highly desirable, our 2-4 Khanda becomes a very attractive main hand choice, /WAR becomes a legitimate sub, and the Kracken Club is still what every new player in the game dreams about at night.

I staunchy disagree.

An uncapped scaling enspell that works with multihits would be flatly broken. There is a reason why most modern NMs resist Krakkeneater Dark Knights. It's a very broken mechanic. The reason why I had it be a first-hit retain itself in my idea to uncap Enspell II's damage scaling wasn't just so it would continue to syngergize with Sambas in any multi-attack build. It was to keep the damage scaling on such an enspell from growing to insane proportions. A well geared RDM with an uncapped Enspell II is going to do well into 200+ additional damage per round, which in and of itself would make up for attack deficiency in our TP gain. But with proper buffing this can even offset our low WS numbers as well. Making it function on every hit would just plain break the game, even I'm considering that they give a diminishing return in growth after +200 AD.

The fact that it could be paired with Ceremonial blade to make for more TP-less melee solos again is going to make this idea near impossible to begin with in SE's eyes.

ManaKing

06-07-2011, 05:03 PM

uncapped scaling enspell that works on mult hits, NO. Take off uncapped. Leave the rest. That's what I said. I didn't say out of control ridiculous damage. I said Enspell 2s that are about twice as good as Enspell 1s. You know, the way they should be instead of enspell 1s being just blatantly better as soon as you start considering maxing DPS and good gear.

Again, you're not seeing the difference between breaking TP off a mob and draining it from them. DRK's Absorb-TP is well placed because it fits the theme of the class. RDM is warranted to have Froissement to have a different approach to reducing the mob's TP. It isn't complicated nor difficult to see this.

I'm not seeing it because you aren't saying it or relating it to precedent that already exists on RDM. Why should a RDM break mobs TP? Tell me what that is related to. I'm not trying to be difficult i'm just wondering where this idea is coming from and if you could fully flesh it out so that myself and others can comment on it.

Then simply make said enspell trait renew enfeebling duration. It'd still make melee relevant. The idea is to tie enfeebling into melee rather than making it its own role. Granted, it's not my idea but I do like it.

Same thing is this some kind of melee saboteur that lengthens enfeebles or does it increase potency or anything else notable? Is it a spell or trait that we learn. Is it going to be obvious to people that just picked up the game what their spells are doing? What are the parameters of this idea and how does it function?

Duelle

06-07-2011, 07:42 PM

I'm not seeing it because you aren't saying it or relating it to precedent that already exists on RDM. Why should a RDM break mobs TP? Tell me what that is related to.You mean side from being plausibly part of the fencer side of RDM that so far has been terribly neglected, and the fact that enfeebling doesn't end with status ailments. It even falls into line with that wish to have more JAs native to RDM. As I would balance it, it'd be on a 1-minute cooldown like my Spellblade idea, but dealing minimal damage (weapon damage/5 maybe?) since the point of the ability is to lower the mob's TP.

Same thing is this some kind of melee saboteur that lengthens enfeebles or does it increase potency or anything else notable? Is it a spell or trait that we learn. Is it going to be obvious to people that just picked up the game what their spells are doing? What are the parameters of this idea and how does it function?Not my idea, but as I would do it it'd be a job trait that enters the game at 55, extending the duration of enfeebles already cast by the RDM on the target whenever the RDM hits the mob while under the effect of Enspells. I'd personally want to just take the old Crusader Strike approach and have it renew the entire enfeeble duration every time the RDM hits the mob, but keeping the balance mongers in mind, I'd say limit it to double the normal duration of the enfeeble in a stacking fashion. It'd be easier to work with if we could see debuff timers on mobs, but sadly that is not the case at the moment, which is why I lean more towards the former rather than the latter.

Daniel_Hatcher

06-07-2011, 09:22 PM

(Rdm actually used to have a Marksmanship skill)

Then they changed it to bow, I'd have preferred being able to equip a crossbow, and potentially a gun.

Doombringer

06-08-2011, 12:09 AM

i think linking enspells to enfeebs needs to be more along the lines of the enspell INFLICTING the enfeeb, as opposed to just re-applying it.

if the issue is time spent casting relative to time spent with mob alive, then just making enspell re-up enfeebs already on the mob won't matter much.

also, it should probably be it's own spell, or line of spells, to avoid things like "well it's firesday.. and this mob is weak to fire.. and it's fire weather right now.. so.. guess i'll use enblizzard" (since an en-paralyze effect would be way better than en-addle)

i don't think it would be ENOUGH... but it'd be something. a couple pages ago we talked about cripple, then pain, then en-pain. i think we hit something useful there.

Seriha

06-08-2011, 12:43 AM

If we're gonna talk about the T2's scaling and caps, just make it, at most, the damage rating of the weapon. And frankly, I'd like to see RDM removed from the ceremonial dagger just so people stop bringing that up as some vile solo mechanic.

ManaKing

06-08-2011, 02:55 AM

Then they changed it to bow, I'd have preferred being able to equip a crossbow, and potentially a gun.

Yeah, me too.

i think linking enspells to enfeebs needs to be more along the lines of the enspell INFLICTING the enfeeb, as opposed to just re-applying it.

if the issue is time spent casting relative to time spent with mob alive, then just making enspell re-up enfeebs already on the mob won't matter much.

also, it should probably be it's own spell, or line of spells, to avoid things like "well it's firesday.. and this mob is weak to fire.. and it's fire weather right now.. so.. guess i'll use enblizzard" (since an en-paralyze effect would be way better than en-addle)

i don't think it would be ENOUGH... but it'd be something. a couple pages ago we talked about cripple, then pain, then en-pain. i think we hit something useful there.

Do me a favor and write up what you envision this to be, so we can discuss it better. Don't take a bunch of time to do it.

1. Is it a spell, trait, or JA?
2. What it's name is? (less important)
3. Recast timer/ frequency of use (if it has one)
4. What you can do with it, min/maxing included
5. What you feel the ability will accomplish for RDM and the direction it will take the Job, including precedent from previous RDM spells and abilities
6. How it interacts with other Jobs, specifically are you stepping on other people's toes? and will it be desirable for other jobs to play with it.

I'll do one on Runic for example and also because I want it discussed. Try to keep these short, but well defined, so they are easy to read.

Criticism welcome, if i missed anything you think is important for defining new changes, please comment.

Write up on Runic:
Job Ability _ Runic _ Recast timer between 2 - 5 minutes.

The next damaging, offensive spell cast in 30 yalms of the RDM is absorbed by their weapon. The next melee attack will apply the spell as an additional affect. The damage is at full potency from the caster + any additional magic attack bonus that the RDM has.

This would only work on magic schools that the RDM has natively. No Blue Magic. No monster abilities. No Ninjitsu. No Summoning magic, unless it is a spell that is Elemental Magic, such as Fire IV from Ifrit. The spells source can either be a member of your alliance (pets included) or an enemy that your alliance is engaging.

The JA doesn't go on cooldown until the spell is dissipated by using it or canceling the buff. That way you can't use Runic back to back.

The idea is a combination of Chrono Trigger mechanics and Celes' Runic from FF6. I see Runic as a different application of Convert. Taking one thing and channeling it into another.

It would make RDM into a spell catalyst for higher tier nukers. We would be able to take another casters Nukes and deliver them to the Mob without the casters gaining hate. Instead we would get the hate. We would also get more use out of magic attack bonus gear, because it would help us further enhance the damage of the spells.

We would also be very effective again caster type mobs, so we would have a niche. I personally love the idea of a RDM being the last thing another mage wants to take on 1 V 1, because we are Duelists and Warlocks. We cheat, we bend the rules, and we aren't afraid to get our hands dirty to win. We will even take your own magic, and turn it against you.

I think other mages would love a hate free delivery system for their Higher Tier magic. I designed the idea around more teamwork for RDM and giving it a desirable position in a party.

Duelle

06-08-2011, 03:30 AM

i think linking enspells to enfeebs needs to be more along the lines of the enspell INFLICTING the enfeeb, as opposed to just re-applying it.

if the issue is time spent casting relative to time spent with mob alive, then just making enspell re-up enfeebs already on the mob won't matter much.

also, it should probably be it's own spell, or line of spells, to avoid things like "well it's firesday.. and this mob is weak to fire.. and it's fire weather right now.. so.. guess i'll use enblizzard" (since an en-paralyze effect would be way better than en-addle)And you lose out on the damage from enspells. That's kind of why I think it would be a trait that works in conjunction with current enspells.

Doombringer

06-08-2011, 04:03 AM

eh, make it do dmg to then. random element, non-elemental, whatever.

if that makes existing enspells obsolete... so what? i've been using the same enspells since lvl 15. they can be replaced at 90+

Supersun

06-08-2011, 04:31 AM

I would think it would be possible have an enspell that inflects an enfeeble if that enfeeble isn't present on the monster and does damage instead if the monster already has that enfeeble.

Hyrist

06-08-2011, 05:08 AM

Why would we get both damage and a utility in a neat package? That's asking for a bit too much, IMO.

The truth of the matter is our enspells archaic in design. They're completely out done by Haste Samba in every coneviable sense. You WOULD have to do upwards of +100-200 damage a hit to even compare with what +5% haste does for you in a build that isn't even maxed out on haste. And that's just subbing Dancer.

Having something like that + Doing what I picture EnPain doing as an enfeeble would be going a bit far.

But it's not as if a comprimise can't be made.

For exmaple, provide an ENSpell 3 line that does the upwards damage we're asking for. Then we can have EnPain be a guarenteed, short duration status effect. Both will grow in damage/potency over amount of rounds inflicted to a cap.

We'll have to actually choose between both of these assets, but we'll have them both available as utilities.

Supersun

06-08-2011, 06:11 AM

Why would we get both damage and a utility in a neat package? That's asking for a bit too much, IMO.

Depends entirely on how it's balanced. I mean sure if it hits for like 500 damage in addition to supplying a 100% paralyze then it is too much. Alternatively if it does 1 damage and provided a negligible enfeebling effect then clearly it's not enough.

There's most certainly a happy middle that damage and support can meet at.

This is mainly meant to be another idea.

I should comment on the uncapped damage scaling some more though. Certainly it could work. The biggest issue with that though is once something like that is introduced...well that's it. There's no more room for growth really and our way of damage becomes that sort of gimmick.

It's more or less the same thing that happened with Dark Knight where for a while the job became solely defined by Soul Eater. As soon as you find mobs where that one tactic doesn't work then the job becomes near worthless.

And the counter to enspells isn't all that rare. Anything with -MDT% would completely butcher our damage yet they can't exactly buff us because we already have the potential to obliterate other monsters HATE FREE.

It would also completely break Ceremonial Dagger solos like mentioned before.

Ultimately, I personally just don't like the idea as much. Too gimmicky and shallow. I mean ANYTHING can work if balanced properly (assuming it can be implemented in a reasonable amount of time and the system can handle it).

I mean sure it would potentially fix the job, but if you could choose anyway to fix Rdm would uncapped enspells really be your number one choice? I just feel that there are better solutions out there.

Hyrist

06-08-2011, 06:34 AM

I can see a very small portion of damage in En:pain, just to prevent Additional Effect: Pain from spamming the screen.

But as far as uncapping Enspell damage. It was half serious. Truth be told we just need a higher cap, but the cap needs to be pretty darn high in comparison to what we have, double if not more than the current caps on Enspell II on average. +100 additional damage shouldn't be unreasonable considering what Damage Dealers are doing both in and out of abysses these days.

But, to be truthful, what about RDM isn't a gimmick? Sure, there's depth to the job, arguably more so than most others. But that's because it's layered gimmicks upon gimmicks. We're a walking bag of tricks as is. Having the ability to put mini-nukes on monsters via melee is just another one of them.

And I'm in Seriha's camp about flatly removing Ceremonial dagger, period. It servers no other purpose BUT to be abused.

ManaKing

06-08-2011, 08:00 AM

Ceremonial Dagger has never been anything but a gimmick. There is no reason it should be a factor on our future. Any self-respecting RDM doesn't do that and we shouldn't be constrained by the worst players in the game. I don't think any of us would care if it disappeared from the game tomorrow.

I'm still pointing out that you guys aren't making a very conclusive picture about how you want enspells and enfeebles married.

Are you looking for traits, spells, or job abilities?

Are these to be built off of existing enspells or are we looking at another tier?

If you want to add enfeebles to current Enspell 2s it might actually make them decent. You just attach an enfeeble to every enspell.

Fire > Addle
Water > Poison
Wind > is either Silence or Gravity
Earth > Slow or Break
Ice > Bind or Paralyze
Thunder > Stun (even though we can only stun with shock spikes)

Please express your ideas in a way that people can actually discuss them. I haven't seen anything clear in the last 3 or 4 pages.

Seriha

06-08-2011, 08:32 AM

Ideally a trait 50+ that then carries over to all Enspells. SCHs could still Accession, but then our T1s would be better in our hands.

Daniel_Hatcher

06-08-2011, 12:17 PM

Ideally a trait 50+ that then carries over to all Enspells. SCHs could still Accession, but then our T1s would be better in our hands.

I genuinely have no idea why RDM still doesn't have a trait that enhances it's enspells.

Doombringer

06-08-2011, 12:45 PM

i think, me and hyrist anyway, are talking about a new enspell that would inflict dmg (in some negotiable amount), and a new status ailment that was effectively every, or most, status ailments rolled into one. (at some negotiable potency)

the idea being to reduce or remove the casting burden of enfeebs against most mobs, while at the same time rewarding meleeing.

damage and potency are of course negotiable, but as a high level spell i see no reason for this to not completely obsolete lower tier enspells. who cares if rdms aren't using a lvl 15 spell anymore. whens the last time you saw a lvl 90 blm cast fire1? or a lvl 90 whm casting cure2?

i suggest dmg be at enspell2 lvls or higher, calculated on cast.. not swing, and unrestricted to first swing only. as for potency, somewhere in the range of 1 tier below max. so dia/bio2 slow/para/blind1

i'd use it.

ManaKing

06-08-2011, 01:28 PM

If the damage isn't going to substantially better than what we get right now, how about make the potency of the enfeebles the same as 1/5 of each of our tier 2 merits? That way we choose which ones we want stronger than base line and can override them with stronger versions of them.

You make the choice to use the debuff enspell and you make the choice about what higher level enfeebles you merit.

It's win/win and fixes a lot of problems.

Hyrist

06-08-2011, 04:25 PM

As far as Enpain goes, I'm very particular as to what status effects would pretty much go on it.

Paralyze, Slow, Blind, Addle, and possibly a TP version of Addle.

There's a very important reasoning for this: These are all 'passive' debuffs. Meaning they do not actively prevent action, but rather hamper it.

Let's look at the problems with other debuffs we have.

Dia/Bio/Poison: DoTs, they prevent sleep meaning it would make it difficult to disengage.

Silence/Petrify: They outright prevent actions from taking place and would have to occur on a 'chance' basis. Not a good thing to use as a reliable melee utility.

As far as what degrees of the spell functions at, I'm still in favor of the idea 'increase potency over time'. The actual degrees of these of course would be variable, but stackable with the origonal spells.

So say, with a total of 10 attack rounds equating full stacks. Have it scale say, 1% slow per round (to 10% slow) 2% Paralyze rate per round(to 20% total paralysis chance) -2 accuracy (totaling -20 Accuracy) 2% increase casting time , and 2% increased TP attack use time. ALL at once, all stack-able with their originals. As a whole, the full 10 stacks will be quite powerful. But when you pair them with their corresponding debuffs (especially with use of saboteur) they would be incredible, because it would tip many abilities near the breaking point.

For example: Full stacks on Enpain + Fully Merited Saboteur Slow II can potentially reach 90% Slow. Now imagine if you stack the remaining tier 2s on something like that, as well as Addle, and hopefully a TP attack debuff. You will have crushed the effectiveness of the monster.

Now this doesn't help in incredibly fast mob kills, but also leaves room for us to have a normal Enspell III line that just does normal damage boosts for those situations. So long as we can't have both up at once.

Karbuncle

06-08-2011, 04:40 PM

Okay, I don't like touching RDM melee, Its a taboo, But truthfully even if it never becomes main-stream its always nice to imagine, right? Not that I would cry one way or the other.

---------------------
Job Traits
RDM30 - "Combat Wisdom" (this is my favorite Idea)
Tiers-30/50/70/90/99
*Raises Enspell Damage, Increases Stats based on Current Enspell
**Raises Enspell Damage by 3 Points per stage. Increases Stat Related to Element by 5 Each Stage. (i.E Enfire gives STR+5, Enthunder gives DEX+5, This would make Enspells useful even not in combat, Say cast En-water on yourself for a MND boost for debuff Potency, or EN-blizzard for Nuke Potency, Even if you're using Staff/what-have-you!. This adds a new level of uses for Enspells. Even if you're not meleeing!)

RDM55 "Swordsmanship"
Tiers 55/70/95
*Increases Attack, Critical hit Rate, and Critical hit Damage when wielding a Sword.
**Increases Attack by 5, Critical hit Rate by 3%, and Critical hit Damage by 3% per level.
***PLD would get this too at a lower level.

RDM55 - "Dagger mastery"
teirs 55/70/95
*Increases Attack, Critical hit Rate, Critical hit Damage when wielding a Dagger.
**Increases Attack by 5, Critical hit Rate by 3%, and Critical hit Damage by 3% per level.
***THF would get this too at Lower Levels (15/30/45/60/75/90). and DNC. (35/60/85)

--------------------------------------------------------
Job Abilities

RDM:55
"Magic Fencer"
*Increases Accuracy and Attack in proportion to Enspell damage. Extends Duration of Enspells. Enspells effects by Magic Attack Bonus
**Every 2 Damage your spell does = 1 Acc. Caculated by Base damage before Resists. (I.E if your spells would do 30 dmg before resist, you get +15acc/atk. regardless of spell being resisted)
**Increases enspell Duration by 50%. Stacks with other Buffs.
**Self-Explanitory
---------------------
Magic

Enspell Teir III!
*Deals Elemental damage. Deals a Set damage of 30dmg/swing. Enhancing Magic for these spells now occasionally Augments the spells to do Double Damage. Capped enhanced gives you about a 5% Chance to "Double Damage". Works on all hits. Every 10 Points of Enhancing Magic pas cap gives an additional "2%" chance to increase damage.

----------------------------------------------

And I'm done. really.

Can't say i realistically expecting anything above me to be implemented (bar maybe the very first idea), but at the same time, I'm not a giant RDM melee enthusiast, I think it has some places, But i also think FFXI seems to have made itself clear it doesn't care too much about that aspect of RDM (empyrean-hello -.-)

I like RDM how it is, I would welcome any improvement they gave us.

Supersun

06-08-2011, 07:01 PM

Job Traits
RDM30 - "Combat Wisdom" (this is my favorite Idea)
Tiers-30/50/70/90/99
*Raises Enspell Damage, Increases Stats based on Current Enspell
**Raises Enspell Damage by 3 Points per stage. Increases Stat Related to Element by 5 Each Stage. (i.E Enfire gives STR+5, Enthunder gives DEX+5, This would make Enspells useful even not in combat, Say cast En-water on yourself for a MND boost for debuff Potency, or EN-blizzard for Nuke Potency, Even if you're using Staff/what-have-you!. This adds a new level of uses for Enspells. Even if you're not meleeing!)

Well 2 issues I can think of with this though they aren't very large issues.

First, this would pretty much only make a handful of elements useful. I mean who would ever use Enstone if it gives a VIt bonus.

Second, this just seems like Gain spell 2.0 that stack.

Taking this in a slightly different direction I might be up for a mix between this and one of Seriha's ideas where instead of the enspell increasing the base attribute it increasea the stat commonly associated with that attribute.

Earth: -DT%
Water: +MACC
Wind: +Subtle Blow
Fire: +ATK
Ice: +MATK
Thunder: +Crit

Now the numbers might need to be tossed around a bit as -25% PDT from just using enstone might be a bit much, but the numbers aren't as important as the ideas.

RDM55 "Swordsmanship"
Tiers 55/70/95
*Increases Attack, Critical hit Rate, and Critical hit Damage when wielding a Sword.
**Increases Attack by 5, Critical hit Rate by 3%, and Critical hit Damage by 3% per level.
***PLD would get this too at a lower level.

RDM55 - "Dagger mastery"
teirs 55/70/95
*Increases Attack, Critical hit Rate, Critical hit Damage when wielding a Dagger.
**Increases Attack by 5, Critical hit Rate by 3%, and Critical hit Damage by 3% per level.
***THF would get this too at Lower Levels (15/30/45/60/75/90). and DNC. (35/60/85)

Oddly enough my biggest gripe with these are the tiers that you gave to other jobs. I mean with Thf getting 6 tiers of this trait they would have an innate +18% crit hit bonus and a +26% crit hit damage. The crit hit becomes +23% if they sub war. I mean are you trying to give Thf a perma Razed Ruin outside of abyssea XD

Also I know crit hits are awesome and everything and are the only things that matter in abyssea, but moving forward there is plenty of room for other types of damage to thrive. This really just seems like a slightly different version of Fencer. I mean this buff does seem to be more intended for the other jobs that receive it other then Rdm and that's fine, but I personally hope to see Rdm grow in a different direction then critical hit WS spam.

RDM:55
"Magic Fencer"
*Increases Accuracy and Attack in proportion to Enspell damage. Extends Duration of Enspells. Enspells effects by Magic Attack Bonus
**Every 2 Damage your spell does = 1 Acc. Caculated by Base damage before Resists. (I.E if your spells would do 30 dmg before resist, you get +15acc/atk. regardless of spell being resisted)
**Increases enspell Duration by 50%. Stacks with other Buffs.
**Self-Explanitory

If they ever fixed the T2 enspells this would completely bust them though I get the impression you were planning to use them with the T3 versions mainly. The concept isn't bad and certainly has been tossed around where enspells should give stat bonuses (like Enlight and Endark), but these numbers might be a tad too high.

Other then that though I like it and hate it at the same time. It's certainly nice to get an attack and accuracy bonus from the enspells, but at the same time if there weren't enough Teal meleeing Rdms before there certainly will be now D: . There just aren't that many slots that we can afford to give up haste for more MAB.

Enspell Teir III!
*Deals Elemental damage. Deals a Set damage of 30dmg/swing. Enhancing Magic for these spells now occasionally Augments the spells to do Double Damage. Capped enhanced gives you about a 5% Chance to "Double Damage". Works on all hits. Every 10 Points of Enhancing Magic pas cap gives an additional "2%" chance to increase damage.

I think these might do slightly more then you expect. 30 + your JA that adds 15 + Fencer ring (5) + Hollow (3) = 53 enspell per hit. That gives +26 attack and accuracy with your last JA in addition to that number being affected by MAB (+28 MAB minimum).

In addition we can currently get ~+90 enhancing magic giving it a +23% chance to double its damage.

This would give it something like an average of 81 damage per attack round...That's...a lot.

Karbuncle

06-08-2011, 08:28 PM

Well 2 issues I can think of with this though they aren't very large issues.

First, this would pretty much only make a handful of elements useful. I mean who would ever use Enstone if it gives a VIt bonus.

Well, More or less Resist Rates, Even if Enfire gave STR+25, You wouldn't use it on a Fire-Strong mob, The 25STR would not make up for the horrible loss in DoT for Enspell damage. That was my thoughts though. Honestly you can't make all Enspells useful, Even if you do like the "DT" thing you meantioned for Enstone, Most RDMs will default to Enstone simply to keep themselves alive, and to hell with their DoT, now the full Teal RDMs will be pumping out 2-dmg Enstone hits just so they don't die as fast?

Also, (This is below) about the "Gain Spell 2.0", Theres similarities between a lot of things in this game. Off the top of my head, Berserk and Last Resort. BRD song set bonus increases Stats pertaining to the songs element too (Stacks with Gain spells!)

Second, this just seems like Gain spell 2.0 that stack.

Taking this in a slightly different direction I might be up for a mix between this and one of Seriha's ideas where instead of the enspell increasing the base attribute it increasea the stat commonly associated with that attribute.

Earth: -DT%
Water: +MACC
Wind: +Subtle Blow
Fire: +ATK
Ice: +MATK
Thunder: +Crit

This is nice, I think Enthunder/Enstone would be the "ones used" most often in this set. Obv Enblizzard for Nuking (but then Again my idea would be about the same...) Wind would be used least often/never in that scenario. (same in mine!)

Sometimes its not about trying the best to give everything a use, But "balancing" it into simple, fair catagories. +? to stats would seem basic. In or outside Abyssea, +~30 to a Stat isn't going to make RDM overpowered, If anything, It will slightly level the playing field.

Now the numbers might need to be tossed around a bit as -25% PDT from just using enstone might be a bit much, but the numbers aren't as important as the ideas.

I agree, Numbers are generally thought up on the spot, Rarely thought goes into them (i explain that below on the whole "THF" thing you mentioned)

(1)Oddly enough my biggest gripe with these are the tiers that you gave to other jobs. I mean with Thf getting 6 tiers of this trait they would have an innate +18% crit hit bonus and a +26% crit hit damage. The crit hit becomes +23% if they sub war. I mean are you trying to give Thf a perma Razed Ruin outside of abyssea XD

(2)Also I know crit hits are awesome and everything and are the only things that matter in abyssea, but moving forward there is plenty of room for other types of damage to thrive. This really just seems like a slightly different version of Fencer. I mean this buff does seem to be more intended for the other jobs that receive it other then Rdm and that's fine, but I personally hope to see Rdm grow in a different direction then critical hit WS spam.[quote]

(I'm breaking this up for my good, Not in a mocking way)

1) Yah, Like i said above >__> Rarely think out the numbers. Realistically I've always figured THF should be king of Criticals. I go overboard. Either way, RDM is basically "okay" at sword/Dagger, Its not the best at them (PLD and THF are respectively) so obviously it would get less tiers of the Sword/Dagger heavy Traits, but i feel they still deserve them. Ignoring the THF/PLD part, I think These aren't horrible... Maybe a little.

2) Critical hit rate and damage are still the best things ever, short of haste. Outside abyssea they're as good as inside. And if you think about it, Chant du Cygne and Vorpal blade are RDM's strongest Weaponskills, both heavily influenced by Critical hit Rate and Damage. While yes, Inside abyssea Critical hit rate/dmg is much more ... "big"? I don't know a word for it... Anyway, Given the same buffs, They're as good outside as Inside. I don't want perma RR (Yay not thinking things out D:!) but the best way to improve your DoT, other than haste and obv Dbl/trpl attack, is acc/atk and Crit hit rate/dmg.

I expect a haste job trait would be asking entirely too much, same for Dbl/trpl attack, So I figure the next best step is Crit/Acc/atk.

[quote]If they ever fixed the T2 enspells this would completely bust them though I get the impression you were planning to use them with the T3 versions mainly. The concept isn't bad and certainly has been tossed around where enspells should give stat bonuses (like Enlight and Endark), but these numbers might be a tad too high.

Other then that though I like it and hate it at the same time. It's certainly nice to get an attack and accuracy bonus from the enspells, but at the same time if there weren't enough Teal meleeing Rdms before there certainly will be now D: . There just aren't that many slots that we can afford to give up haste for more MAB.

I honestly completely gave up on them Fixing Teir II Enspells. So i assume they're dead and suck. I agree numbers may be too high, again, The ideas are where i thrive, balancing them with Proper numbers i fail miserably.

Secondly, Its more of a balancing Act, you obviously want full Haste, but at the same time, your Natural MAB Job traits will help on Enspell damage. You dont necessarily need to "MAB Build" around it, Just your traits would take effect for it. Its like adding a small free-bonus.

I think these might do slightly more then you expect. 30 + your JA that adds 15 + Fencer ring (5) + Hollow (3) = 53 enspell per hit. That gives +26 attack and accuracy with your last JA in addition to that number being affected by MAB (+28 MAB minimum).

In addition we can currently get ~+90 enhancing magic giving it a +23% chance to double its damage.

This would give it something like an average of 81 damage per attack round...That's...a lot.

Actually these i actually anticipated quite well. I should have mentioned some things though.

I was taking into account Using Enspells means we lose Haste Samba, Thats 10% haste (Merits? its 10 right?) Right out the window. Thats alot to make up for. So these need to be omg good.

I imagine the Enhancing magic buff would be just like Enspells II, based on when the hits land, Not when you cast, So you wouldn't be doing 28% Dbl Damage unless you full timed all your Enhancing magic gear (you'd loose so much haste it wouldn't be worth it), Basically its another one of those "Free Bonuses" (enhancing magic merits >____>? lol idk) that you could use, but might not.

53 DMG enspells (well, Probably closer to 60) wouldn't be horrible, the PLD/DRK ones do 60 from start with Woeborn/Honorbound (and degrade admitidely), but each of those offer atk/acc equal to the damage dealt (+60 each degrading over hits).

RDM is suppose to be better at Enspells than those, Giving them a high-damaging Helpful ability (even giving them just half acc/atk as opposed to full from PLD/DRK ones) would be ideal.

I probably missed some points :| if i did repeat them D: I'll check back laterz

Seriha

06-08-2011, 10:02 PM

The Subtle Blow+ on Enaero spells was actually a nod toward allowing RDMs to swing on more difficult stuff. I know, taboo, they're retards, whatever, but if they're already /NIN and can stack SB up to NIN-like levels, with perhaps a dash of Gain-AGI for more SB through AGI calculations, the whole TP feed argument of old loses some steam and you get some supplementary damage on top. How much will obviously depend on the RDM's gear, the mob, and other factors, but it's mainly a step toward quelling the GTFO mentality.

Doombringer

06-09-2011, 08:36 AM

lotsa stuff

i like it, but i agree that it needs some hammering out.

as discussed, exclusive buffs per enspell lock you into certain enspells. i like the idea of adding att/acc relative to enspell across the board, but i dislike enspell specific buffs.

as for dagger mastery, could mitigate the issue for thf by giving a 3/3/4 instead of 3/3/6. or, give both traits more magicy names and remove thf from the list. (maybe let pld and dnc keep them cuz there also quasi-"magic" jobs) might piss the thfs off but who cares, i had to watch bst get fencer >.>

Hyrist

06-09-2011, 09:06 AM

You guys are pushing some incredibly low numbers on Enspells. It's kind of disheartening.

50 Damage enspells is nothing compared to 5-10% haste. (See the Haste Thread for an example of why it is.)

Provided cap gear haste: Going from 40% haste to 45% is a 9% increase in overall damage. If we're going to inflcit damage that's compariable to loosing 9% TOTAL damage (including WS damage due to WS frequency.) Then we're going to need an enspell that's more potent than Haste Samba.

This is just to EQUATE Haste Samba. Not even regarding our damage issues alone. If we're looking for increased damage potential, we need to get comfortable with the idea that our enspell damage should hit around 100 additional damage unresisted per hit. Either that or it needs to mimic the attack bonuses gaine in En-dark, without the decay, and still be at the +60-70 range.

Supersun

06-09-2011, 09:24 AM

If you are trying to make an enspell to match haste samba then you'll likely "break" /nin even more since /nin already does more damage then /dnc.

I think a better way instead of cranking enspells to like 200 a hit would be to find a way that we can gain the benefit of a sanba and an enspell at the same time.

Karbuncle

06-09-2011, 12:21 PM

i like it, but i agree that it needs some hammering out.

as discussed, exclusive buffs per enspell lock you into certain enspells. i like the idea of adding att/acc relative to enspell across the board, but i dislike enspell specific buffs.

as for dagger mastery, could mitigate the issue for thf by giving a 3/3/4 instead of 3/3/6. or, give both traits more magicy names and remove thf from the list. (maybe let pld and dnc keep them cuz there also quasi-"magic" jobs) might piss the thfs off but who cares, i had to watch bst get fencer >.>

I had considered, for Dagger Mastery, Traits would be more like 5 initial, +2 to each, This way, even at level 6, it would only be +15. but RDM would only get +9, which isn't bad.

Either way, We also need to consider Evisceration, Chant du Cygne, and Vorpal(where applicable) are RDMs best DD Weaponskills. So while Crit hit rate/dmg may be seen as "ABYSSEA ONRY", Its actually quite powerful in or out. Take Impetus for example, with MNK Body, It increases attack, Critical hit rate and dmg(Ithinklol;;) with each hit, to the point, accuracy baring, it is like a perma RR XD. Which makes it really quite powerful.

Okay, So now given a few moments to refine some things, How about narrowing it down too.... this-

------------------------------
JA
Dagger Mastery
RDM50 - (65/80/95)
Increases Critical hit rate and attack when wielding a Dagger.
(+5 Initial Level, +2 Each after)

Swordsmanship
RDM50 - (65/80/95)
Increases Attack and Critical hit Damage when wielding a Sword.
(+5 Initial Level, +2 Each after)

Job Traits
RDM30 - "Combat Wisdom"
Tiers-30/50/70/90
*Raises Enspell Damage. Increases Accuracy and Magic Accuracy when Enspells are active.
*Increases Enspell Damage by 3, Accuracy and Magic Accuracy by 5 for first level. +3 and +3 Each after.

--------------------------------
JA-
RDM:55
"Magic Fencer"
Increases Accuracy and Attack speed in proportion to Enspell damage. Extends Duration of Enspells. Enspells effects by Magic Attack Bonus
*Accuracy gained is exactly half of Enspell Damage before resists.
*Attack speed is based on Enspell Level. (-4% for enspell 1, -7% for Enspell II, -10% for Enspell III)

--------------
MA

Enspell III
RDM 89, 91, 93, 95 ,97 ,99
*Enspells deal a set base damage of 30 a hit. Enhancing Magic skill will occasionally Augment Enspell damage to do 1.5x normal. Has a base chance of procing of 3%. Each 100 Enhancing magic skill adds another 1%. (i.e, at 90, our base Enhancing magic is around 300, So it'd be 6% Chance total).

--------------------------

Some optional things, Maybe an ability that makes your next enspell have an Aura. (Basically, Enfire would grant an AoE attack boost?), Though This might take usefulness away from using the right spell if you're in a party though, because you may be asked for Attack boost (Enfire) on a mob that Isn't exactly fire-friendly, Either way, RDM is a great buffer still, something like an Aura to Enspells at a short range might make meleeing on RDM a bit less unbearable too.

It would be a low level JA, Probably 30 or so. and the buff would be based on the Spell Tier. Like so-

"Mystic Aura"
recast:1min Dur:Next Enspell
*Grants an "Aura" bonus based on Enspell level and type.
*"Enfire" would give your party +5% Attack.
*"Enfire II" would give your party +7% Attack.
*"Enignis" would give your party +10% Attack.
(Numbers need some fixing)

The only problem with the above ability, some Spells might not get great uses, or you may be asked to use an inferior enspell (Like say, Enfire on a fire resistant mob) simply to give your party an attack boost. Some buffs might not be great comparatively too. Enwater might just give Macc, Enblizzard Matk, etc.

However, Sometimes we have to consider taking a hit like that to get a decent bonus.

(Numbers may need some refining) (Giving an Ability that grants an attack speed inrease with Enspells active (for RDM only) removes the "Haste samba" problem. Since it would be almost impossible to make up for that amount of damage lost)

Supersun

06-09-2011, 04:02 PM

Karbuncle

06-10-2011, 01:42 AM

I'd actually debate that unless you have CDC that outside of abyssea AE and Sanguine Blade are better then Eviceration and Vorpal on Rdm respectively. (I hit a 1.1k AE with /Sch the other day in Rolanberry)

I mean I've mentioned this before but one of the easiest ways of bridging the gap for Rdm damage is to give us a powerful native elemental WS. I mean if we had Sanguine natively I'd debate that dual wielding OaX swords and spamming it would beat out just about anything except maybe CDC (outside of abyssea).

This is more a nitpick for if they actually do give us a good native elemental WS on sword otherwise your point still stands tall that crits are amazing.

Well, If it worked out like Primal Rend (Which was i think the only worthwhile Elemental WS ever, although its not much of a shiner today), I could see it being useful.

I don't think we'll be seeing new Weaponskills however... Although, If they just gave RDM sanguine blade Naturally it could be have some decent uses.

Realistically however, if with your best buffs/WS gear, It would still be painfully weak compared to what other DD can do. But if stacked with strong supportive buffs like the ones i listed above, stronger Enspell damage, etc... It could level the playing field a bit.

really though... Its probably doubtful RDM will get anything Melee related mostly due to how the general community would react. I think its too late in RDMs game for SE to consider adjustments like this. Even if they did come out and boost RDM melee proficiency, people would complain they didnt get a "Real update". (Cause lets face it, people are whiners. So am i though, FU Collaborater range improvement).

Thats the biggest problem to solve it seems..

Daniel_Hatcher

06-10-2011, 02:06 AM

Well, If it worked out like Primal Rend (Which was i think the only worthwhile Elemental WS ever, although its not much of a shiner today), I could see it being useful.

I don't think we'll be seeing new Weaponskills however... Although, If they just gave RDM sanguine blade Naturally it could be have some decent uses.

Realistically however, if with your best buffs/WS gear, It would still be painfully weak compared to what other DD can do. But if stacked with strong supportive buffs like the ones i listed above, stronger Enspell damage, etc... It could level the playing field a bit.

really though... Its probably doubtful RDM will get anything Melee related mostly due to how the general community would react. I think its too late in RDMs game for SE to consider adjustments like this. Even if they did come out and boost RDM melee proficiency, people would complain they didnt get a "Real update". (Cause lets face it, people are whiners. So am i though, FU Collaborater range improvement).

Thats the biggest problem to solve it seems..

SE wont give RDM anything melee wise due to one reason, as the developer said before: RDM is kind of powerful as it is.

Now while no one else believes it is, and even the audience chuckled when he said that. The developers seem to think it is, so RDM will get little to nothing by the time we reach lvl.99.

And when that happens, RDM will become a dead job. :(

Supersun

06-10-2011, 03:21 AM

SE wont give RDM anything melee wise due to one reason, as the developer said before: RDM is kind of powerful as it is.

Now while no one else believes it is, and even the audience chuckled when he said that. The developers seem to think it is, so RDM will get little to nothing by the time we reach lvl.99.

And when that happens, RDM will become a dead job. :(

That was like 3 years ago iirc and when that statement was made it was certainly true.

3 years, 2 dev teams, 9 mini-expansions, and 15 levels later things have changed.
I'd be silly of them to go off what they said at fanfest now.

Well, If it worked out like Primal Rend (Which was i think the only worthwhile Elemental WS ever)

Wildfire (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Wildfire_%28Weapon_Skill%29)

Daniel_Hatcher

06-10-2011, 04:04 AM

That was like 3 years ago iirc and when that statement was made it was certainly true.

3 years, 2 dev teams, 9 mini-expansions, and 15 levels later things have changed.
I'd be silly of them to go off what they said at fanfest now.

I suppose, though the most recent update we had on them was 2010:

We intend to ensure that red mages maintain the prominent position they currently enjoy, while closely monitoring their balance with other magic-wielding jobs.
For example, the level cap increase will render both “Convert” and “Refresh” usable by support jobs. If this gives red mages more free time in their parties, we will find ways for them to fill that time productively. If this threatens to deprive the job of its uniqueness, however, we will make sure to cover for this in other areas.

They've not really stuck to that either!

---

I'd love to Melee on RDM if it was worth it, but I really do wonder in what direction the dev's are going with RDM. It's very confusing.

Seriha

06-10-2011, 05:23 AM

Hyrist

06-10-2011, 06:56 AM

Couple problems I see with that idea:

1. We'd never get beyond the level 1 skillchain properties unless we started gaining "Enfusion, Engravitation, Endistortion, etc." as new enspells. Which, admittedly, would be awesome. I'd love to have these instead of a simple tier 3. Otherwise though, the skillchain property variant on the WS would pretty much be worthless. (Unless we got Chainbind as a debuff, which would be a nice way to push a damage boost and allow us to follow up with a burst.)

2. Magic WSes, I don't belive, are subject to DA/TA, Crit, etc. Chances that help other classes push incredibly high spikes.

3. Resists. Without an appropriate skillset to use as a base accuracy comparison on elemental WSes, they tend to suck in general. Sure, with Atmas we could push those numbers high enough to be decent in Abyssea. But outside ,we're just going to lose out on the same root problems we have with WSes before.

Now granted, Elemental WSes would save us a bunch on gear swaps, as we could simply use our casting/Nuking gear to WS. But unless the tripping points are addressed, it'd wind up being a half-effort WS that's not all that much better than Sanguine Blade outside Abyssea, which isn't that impressive at all.

Supersun

06-10-2011, 08:22 AM

not all that much better than Sanguine Blade outside Abyssea, which isn't that impressive at all.

O.o...

Are you gearing for it correctly?

(I'll respond in more detail later)

Karbuncle

06-10-2011, 12:56 PM

That was like 3 years ago iirc and when that statement was made it was certainly true.

Wildfire (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Wildfire_%28Weapon_Skill%29)

I'm quite aware of Wildfire it just slipped my mind :|.

So, if they give RDM a weaponskill natively with the same power and mods of Wildfire, an Empyrean WS, Elemental WS might actually work.

(because if i recall, Inside Abyssea Wildfire is only"good" when you stack MAB/FireMab Atmas, if a RDM did this, they'd severely nerf their Melee-TP Damage phase, Which is not a good trade off. If you're going to advocate RDM melee in abyssea, at least do it right and put on the DD Atmas, any combo of VV, RR, GH, Omni and Apoc. Stacking MAB atmas just for your WS, on a job that would be meleeing for TP, would not be a great idea.)

Still.... We probably wont get any new Weaponskills at all (Well, maybe at 400 skill level), But as is... From 75-80 we got 1 new WS from leveling up, 81-90 We got goose egg. I don't think they'll be giving us anymore from this point. (except Empyreans GAWD, I meant "By leveling up" anyway)

I've been surprised before though XD

That being said, I did quite like the idea of a WS that changes element based on the Current Enspell. however, have to remember even with Beyond/etc we beefed it up to 2,500, We're losing Massive amounts of Damage in the TP Phase by doing this, when we could likely just go full DD Atma and pump out Vorpals/Eviscer for around those numbers.

Its a tricky thing, Outside Abyssea, the Elemental WS would probably serve us better if it had good Acc and decent potency, because outside of abyssea RDM's WS aren't that amazing (chant excluded)

Duelle

06-10-2011, 03:02 PM

Well, I can't add much to this part of the discussion, since elemental WS are so dependent on gear that it wouldn't meet my requirement of "must enter the game at the same skill level BLU and PLD get vorpal blade". Still, I find it nice that someone from the outside is taking part on the discussion rather than just tell us we're doing it wrong. :O

Supersun

06-10-2011, 04:53 PM

Oh gosh. I wasn't trying to suggest that we get a weapon skill on the level of Wildfire. If SE did that Rdm would be kings of DD outside of abyssea.

But yeah, my vouching for a new elemental WS is more looking forward to 99 and content outside of abyssea. Our current critical WSs work fine for abyssea but like you mentioned we have garbage for options outside of abyssea with AE and Sanguine being our best 2 barring CDC imo.

I've always been a fan of the WS that changes element depending on your enspell. They don't even need to stray too far then what currently exists. 3.5-4 fTP with sanguine's dInt*2 and 30%-50% mods would be nice.

Certainly doesn't need to be 6 fTP with a 60% mof like wildfire lol.

Karbuncle

06-10-2011, 05:12 PM

Certainly doesn't need to be 6 fTP with a 60% mof like wildfire lol.

That'd be sexy though Amirite.

I would love another set of Job-Specific Weaponskills (like Mythic Weaponskills), but if we dont see them I won't pout.

Giving RDM a Weaponskill with 4.0fTP, 30%STR/50%MND mod (Magical WS with INT mod is just all the better), Magical, element/Debuff based on current Enspell. But have it mod with TP.

I.e

100% - - - 200% - - - 300%
4.0 - - - - 4.5 - - - - - - 4.75

Secondly, a Debuff for the WS could Depend on the Element. I.E with "Enfire" it would inflict Plague, With Enwater it would inflict Poison, With EnStone it would inflict Slow, so on and so forth.

(Secondary Idea is optional)

Supersun

06-10-2011, 07:11 PM

(I would break the hell out of that WS, making Wildfire look like a joke)

Hyrist

06-10-2011, 10:04 PM

Personally I find the likelihood of us getting a second Weapon Skill custom tailored to our job is low, or highly distant. It would also likely be restricted to high level, which would not regard some of the concerns of some players stating we need a stronger early game WS presence.

Honestly to regard that issue I would like to see the Ex restrictions removed, entirely. The older style job specific WSes don't make any sense to remain restricted in today's game.

In the end our physical WS game isn't all that bad (aside from our Atk deficiency) We just don't have any access to the good ones natively. We either need a specific weapon (with CDC) or a specific subjob, to unlock any ones that have impact. And that seems rather odd considering our nuking game is still decent regardless of subjob. I don't understand why we're still restricted to quested/equipped WSes for decent damage or have a strict subjob choice if we want good WSes. Having them is not going to make us dominate.

ManaKing

06-11-2011, 03:32 AM

I'd still like to see a null-elemental WS that changes its element and skillchain properties based on your current enspell. Ideally it should do more than Sanguine Blade since it wouldn't have the curative property attached and it would allow us to adapt the element to the mob in question since, unlike SB, you wouldn't be stuck with a shitty darkness WS on darkness resistant mobs. We could then do an atma build like RR/Beyond/MM and still be generally proficient with an ice WS that could ideally break 2500 with an okay gear set. No, it's not Ukko's or Smite, but I don't think 40% or more of a scrub mob's HP is anything to scoff at. Plus it'd be amber over ruby, since people still have their ruby phobia.

Doing 2k+ with Evisceration isn't hard right now, but i do like the idea of an Enspell dependent WS. It could be disastrous, or maybe we would get some job identity out of it.

Couple problems I see with that idea:

2. Magic WSes, I don't belive, are subject to DA/TA, Crit, etc. Chances that help other classes push incredibly high spikes.

3. Resists. Without an appropriate skillset to use as a base accuracy comparison on elemental WSes, they tend to suck in general. Sure, with Atmas we could push those numbers high enough to be decent in Abyssea. But outside ,we're just going to lose out on the same root problems we have with WSes before.

Now granted, Elemental WSes would save us a bunch on gear swaps, as we could simply use our casting/Nuking gear to WS. But unless the tripping points are addressed, it'd wind up being a half-effort WS that's not all that much better than Sanguine Blade outside Abyssea, which isn't that impressive at all.

2. You can't get SA/TA, but you do get MAB applied to good elemental WSs.

3. Elemetal WSs almost never miss, but they do get resisted.

(because if i recall, Inside Abyssea Wildfire is only"good" when you stack MAB/FireMab Atmas, if a RDM did this, they'd severely nerf their Melee-TP Damage phase, Which is not a good trade off. If you're going to advocate RDM melee in abyssea, at least do it right and put on the DD Atmas, any combo of VV, RR, GH, Omni and Apoc. Stacking MAB atmas just for your WS, on a job that would be meleeing for TP, would not be a great idea.)

What if your enspell damage was affected by your MAB?

If you knew what mobs you were hunting, you could use elemental MAB ATMAs to boost your enspell damage (DPS) and your WS damage (Burst).

You get to melee and you get to do it like a Mage instead of like a THF. So you equip Mage Atmas and get to Melee with them too.

I personally want this to be the direction that RDM goes. Your magic makes up the difference in melee combat, not your brute strength or your lack of weapon proficiency. You still aren't going to out DPS a DD or out Burst a BLM, but you might get close enough that people would take you seriously.

Hyrist

06-11-2011, 03:44 AM

ManaKing

06-11-2011, 03:51 AM

Sorry, let me clarify. I mean Double-Attack, Tripple Attack. Which would really be a good boon to attack boosts.

As far as "never miss" some of the levels of resist we get might as well make the things miss.

It's just too much that could mess up.

I don't disagree with this and yes, elemental WS are very much about gear.

BUT I wouldn't be against it if gearing for magic affects our future enspell damage.

If you are using this correctly, you should be using an element that the mobs are weak to. So long as the base damage is high, everything should be fine. It won't matter if you get occasional resists because you would be wearing mage gear.

We would be able to use this in our AF3 and actually be taken seriously. Make the bonus stats INT and MND.

GOD I WANT TO MELEE IN MY AF3 SO BADLY!!!!

ALSO can we get an enfeeble that lowers magical evasion?

Hyrist

06-11-2011, 04:13 AM

I would be against it.

There's nothing in the magical stats that enhances our physical traits. Mag.Atk. Bonus vs haste, accuracy, etc? The melee stats are going to win every time. Only way I'd conceed to that is if it comes accompanied with a LARGE wash of gear that mixes melee stats and magic stats, and that's highly unlikely, and even if they did, Enspell Damage + would be a far greater asset.

ManaKing

06-11-2011, 06:16 AM

Composure gives +ACC and there is plenty of +ACC gear.

Giving us a way to gear for a good elemental WS and improved enspell damage at the same time is a step towards not having to compete with melee stats. They can have their game of physical stats + Haste and we can have our game of magical stats.

The end result is more Enspell damage. I want Enspell damage to go up, as well.

Look at our AF3. It stresses Mage skills as usual. So why not work with what we have already and get what we actually want? You can't have sword and sorcery without the sorcery.

*Adding a new idea*

Supersun

06-11-2011, 06:23 AM

While DA, TA, crits, ect... may add occasional spikes to physical WS you have to realize that there are other factors that can just as easily cause a physical WS to spike lower then normal such as missing, getting unlucky on RNG for pDif, ect...

The thing about elemental WSs is that they are VERY consistent. The only thing that can really hamper their damage is a resist, and even then if it's a WS that can change its element by your current enspell then resists are kept at a minimum.

Even if we ever go against a magical resistant monster we can always just switch back to our physical WS, but at the same time this is a luxury most melee won't have that when fighting a physical resistant monster we have our elemental WSs.

Really, while DA and TA can increase the damage of a physical WS by a large amount a small amount of the time, MAB on a magical WS increases the damage by a large amount 100% of the time.

And the most important thing is that with an elemental WS we will actually get updated gear. Physical WS gear is rare for Rdm. Nuking gear is a dime a dozen.

I mean it really wouldn't be that hard to balance a good Elemental WS for Rdm due to their consistency. It would be real easy for them to test a damage they find reasonable for Rdm and then bump it up a bit from the chance of resist and Physicals possibilities to spike.

We could make a balanced elemental WS for for us much better then nearly any physical WS could.

Like I mentioned before I did 1.1k with AW earlier on /sch and the thing is I'm missing some really important pieces for my WS set. I'm missing about ~15 MAB and +TP bonus +25.

And really the only thing that make it nonviable atm is you have to use a martial knife which eats your DoT which this issue disappears if we get a seord WS due to the fact we get TotM swords.

Adding some form of native Rdm dual wield or *gasp* fencer will only make the prospect of an elemental WS and the ability to use /sch even better.

ManaKing

06-11-2011, 06:38 AM

Here is the next step for making our mage gear into something useful.

JOB TRAIT

lvl 50+

When RDM has an Enspell active, they gain Equipment Haste = 1/2* of their Fast Cast value. *adjustable*

------

If you want to gear for /NIN or /DNC there is a huge chunk of equipment haste you don't have to track down. You can gear for damage now.

If you want to gear for /WAR, DRK, PLD, BLU you get access to Sanguine blade and you can stack Mage stats to get the most out of both your enspells, sanguine blade, and Seriha's new enspell dependant WS.

If you want to /MAGE you just got even more recast from that equipment haste. You will be able to spam more spells, so long as your MP holds out.

There are benefits across the board. Every kind of RDM can benefit.

Adding some form of native Rdm dual wield or *gasp* fencer will only make the prospect of an elemental WS and the ability to use /sch even better.

EXACTLY. If we could get some kind of innate TP bonus, such as Fencer, we could be elemental WS specialist. Sword and Sorcery.

Lol, I could get some use out of my Murgleis and we would still use an Almace when we need Physical damage.

Neisan_Quetz

06-11-2011, 11:31 AM

Karbuncle

06-11-2011, 04:24 PM

What if your enspell damage was affected by your MAB?

If you knew what mobs you were hunting, you could use elemental MAB ATMAs to boost your enspell damage (DPS) and your WS damage (Burst).

You get to melee and you get to do it like a Mage instead of like a THF. So you equip Mage Atmas and get to Melee with them too.

I personally want this to be the direction that RDM goes. Your magic makes up the difference in melee combat, not your brute strength or your lack of weapon proficiency. You still aren't going to out DPS a DD or out Burst a BLM, but you might get close enough that people would take you seriously.

Sorry for the late reply, But even if Enspell damage was effected by MAB, stacking MAB would not make up for lose of general DPS from an Atma combo like, RR/GH/Apoc. Not only would a heavy MAB make you lose nearly 70% Critical hit Rate, 30% Critical hit Damage, and 15% Triple Attack, It would only effect your enspells slightly.

Even if say, Your enspells did 50 dmg a hit. +30MAB would add i think just 15 more Damage, +30IceMAB would add about the same. +50MAB would add like 25 damage to that (Ultimate). So if anything, with 50dmg Enspells, and Full Magic Atmas, Your enspell damage would be hitting about 105 dmg.

Right now no enspells for RDM hit 50 (I think maybe Teir IIs but they just suck to the point of not worth using). an additional 105 a hit would not make up for the lose of Critical hit Rate, Damage, and Triple Attack.

Basically, what i was trying to say in that post is, If you're going to try and melee on RDM, Dont half ass it. You can't expect to full up on Mage atmas and not get people going "you're doing gimp dmg wtf are you doing". You need to actually be a Melee RDM if you're going to try and Be. RR/GH/Apoc and pump the Eviscerations/Chants/Vorps.

While, MAB Effecting Enspells would give them a boost, It would simply not make up for the lose of using real DD Atmas. Unfortunately if you wanted to be Magey after Meleeing you'd want to consider switching Atmas :P do both to their fullest.

(I wont speak for Outside Abyssea)

Edit: And as far as "Gearing" for MAB if enspells got that boost, I dont think that would be wise. You'd lose out on a lot of Melee Stats. Even just using Earrings for MAB, You lose out on Suppa and Brutal, If you just use Cape for MAB you lose out on Atheling, Belt is obvious, and Main slots offer too much haste to be worth replacing.

One of my suggestions a few pages back was giving a JA that while active, amongst other things, gives Enspells effected by MAB, But it was more a bonus that can take advantage of RDms natural job Traits.

Edit2: Again on the Topic of Elemental WSs. Outside Abyssea this will likely be a better choice if it was strong enough, Inside We'd be better off with Chant, Vorp, or Evisc. Unless it was insanely powerful to the point it was wildfire level. but we can't expect that.

Also, when it comes to haste, SE is picky in giving it to people in form of JA haste, I can't expect a job Trait that gives us basically capped Gear haste instantly. Its asking a little too much :X

It would be nice but slightly unrealistic :(

ManaKing

06-11-2011, 07:00 PM

JA haste makes more sense imo, tying it to equip haste is unnecessary. Seriha's idea of JA haste attached to Composure is the one I favor the most, even if SE never does it.

I don't see Elemental WS being a solution, unless something has a ridiculous amount of PDT/defense physical weaponskills are usually the better option. Of course SE's idea of 'balance' is to give the elemental dagger WS with no magian daggers and magian swords without the elemental sword WS...

Only reason I say Equipment Haste is so that you can don't have to concern yourself equipment haste. But if your Equipment haste was already taken care of, you would have more free options for equips. In fact, you wouldn't be looking for haste gear, because you already have most of it taken care of.

I get that JA haste is better. BUT I don't think it would be balanced. I'm not a balance monger because this game isn't PvP. So my idea of balance is that everyone should be a little bit ridiculous at least, so they can have a good time.

I apologize if I'm not conveying my full idea about adding MAB to Enspells and making mage stats desirable for a melee RDM. The point is that I am looking for a drastic improvement in the overall damage of Enspell by changing it by:

1. Adding INT and MND as stat modifiers to you enspells base damage. With top gear you could expect to double the amount of base damage that your enspells have.

2. Including MAB as a modifier.

For Enspells 2s specifically:

1. Calculate enspell base damage when you cast the spell to match enspell 1s mechanics.

2. Allow Enspell 2s to continue to only work on your main hand, but work on additional attacks from weapons and gear such as a Joyeus, Twilight Dagger, or Calmecac Trousers.

3. Make the elemental resistance lowering match the element of the enspell. Enfire 2 would deal fire damage and lower fire resistence.

4. The amount of elemental resistance lowered would be increased to help with our new elemental WS damage.

Melee DPS has haste gear, we have Fast cast gear that gets converted to equipment haste.

They have Crit, we have enspells that consistently put out solid numbers.

We both use additional attacks.

If we get our Enspell WSs then we have consistent, high damage WSs that can exploit elemental weaknesses.

Daniel_Hatcher

06-11-2011, 10:22 PM

Only reason I say Equipment Haste is so that you can don't have to concern yourself equipment haste. But if your Equipment haste was already taken care of, you would have more free options for equips. In fact, you wouldn't be looking for haste gear, because you already have most of it taken care of.

While it's an OK idea, 90% of jobs can cap equipment haste even WHM can do so, JA Haste on the other hand is much harder, with only 3 jobs getting any kind of spell to do so.

DRK - 25% (capped)
DNC - ~10%
SAM - 10%

Both /sam and /dnc gains the abilities to use the JA Haste, so asking for it on other jobs wouldn't ruin any of the supposed "balance" SE go on about which in reality doesn't exist (Hi! BLU, MNK and WAR)

Composure was supposed to help with the melee aspect of RDM only the Accuracy isn't a RDM's only issue and in most cases it isn't an issue at all, our DOT is. They have many ways they could implement a haste system in it, either merits (2~3% per level upto 10~15%) or even just add it onto composure as a default option maybe in increments of 10 (lvl. 50 3% - lvl.60 6% - lvl. 70 9% - lvl. 80 12% and lvl. 90 15%) and then if enspells were needed to be upgraded add as has been said before a trait or even double enspell damage while under composure.

PS. Obviously Composure haste would only work on Melee not magical spells.

Hyrist

06-11-2011, 11:58 PM

I could get behind the idea of Composure haste, honestly.

The only thing I can see is SE's fear of giving us "Too much" haste. Between Spell, Gear Haste, and your version of Composure Haste, we'd be sitting pretty on 55% Haste just on our own, not including Dual Weild benefits if we're going for it.

Consitering how haste scales... that's a bit crazy.

Perhaps just a flat 5% true haste at all levels would be a bit more resonable.

Daniel_Hatcher

06-12-2011, 12:48 AM

To be honest whether it comes in haste form or not, I just want SE to actually make Composure the melee stance (so to speak) like it was meant to be.

Seriha

06-12-2011, 04:21 AM

I'd have no issue with CDC beating a theoretical elemental WS, as it should be the reward for chasing those particular weapons. Rather, the desire for an easily accessed, capable WS is part of what's arguably needed to shift some the stigma away from melee being lulzy. Some have been all over Evisceration, past and present, but we know our dagger selection has been kind of spotty and its a WS that drops off hard once you remove atma (To the point most THFs and DNCs use DE instead). Main problem with Vorpal is losing an off-hand hit, which jobs like BLU and PLD can gain without really losing anything (and BLUs aren't shackled to /NIN or /DNC for DW anymore). Standalone, Sanguine Blade is an okay WS, better with a specific atma build, but not enough to really turn heads without it. 2.5k-3k in Abyssea with a proper build isn't asking for too much, really. WHMs can do better with Hexa and even Evisc could top that with enough crits and extra hits, but it's more about consistency and the added utility on mobs where defense may actually be a concern. In a way, it reminds me of the old "Build TP to open for Spirits Within" opener people did in sky and such (Which the variable element properties would basically make this a SW+# with no enspell present).

And parentheses. x.x

ManaKing

06-12-2011, 06:34 AM

^ Would have been nice, right?

Hyrist

06-13-2011, 02:38 AM

As interesting as it would be to have that, I just cant shake the feeling you're being over-imaginative on this one.

As you said, the problem with good old Vorpal Blade is the extra hit we loose not being able to dual wield with it, and outside abysea, Dancers and Thiefs use Dancing Edge.

Without the EX restrictions on weapons, these Weapon Skills become available, and would flatly settle our WS issues without having to go into major reprogramming of how Weapon Skills read stats. (Currently there is no Weapon Skill formula that reads current element of X buff, it merely calculates current stats including stat increase totals).

And if SE really wants to try to make sure we don't have these weaponskills without tieing ourselves to melee. They can tie access to them into a 'stance' JA that also gives us some other physical buff that comes at a magic penalty. (Or tie it into Composure as it already has one.)

Karbuncle

06-13-2011, 03:39 AM

and outside abysea, Dancers and Thiefs use Dancing Edge.

Just on this. No we don't :X.

Evisceration >>>>>>>>>> Dancing Edge outside of Abyssea these days, because of all the Critical hit Rate/Damage gear/traits we have now.

DNC has natural Trait, so does THF, one has Charis Feather, the other Loki's, Basically Evisceration wins outside. Back at 75 Dancing Edge was simply more reliable, Evisceration was close on its heels. (X's Knife even leveled it toward Evisceration too).

Can continue the rest of the conversation as normal D:

Supersun

06-13-2011, 03:40 AM

This is more of an idea if they include more weapon skills into the game which isn't the craziest thing by 99. Certainly if they include more job specific weaponskills the idea to get out there is nice.

Though making an elemental WS that changes elements really wouldn't be that hard to program. I mean if Starburst and Sunburst can change their elements depending on if they open or close a WS it's entirely possible to check if a player has "X" buff applied to himself and give the weaponskill "Y" elemental damage.

Removing the EX restrictions (and adding us to the elemental and TP related trial daggers for TotM) would certainly improve Red Mage's crappy weaponskill selection by a bit though. I mean I'm not sure what they are so worried about. Even with the restrictions removed we are never going to hit a vorpal anywhere near a Pld or Blu simply because they have so much better armor for it.

I do feel that they will be more reluctant to remove the WS restrictions on Red Mage as opposed to just giving us a new weaponskill though.

Either way it's nice to get multiple options out there. While one way will likely fix a large part of Red Mages melee issues it never hurts to think of a plan B.

Karbuncle

06-13-2011, 03:54 AM

Given some time i could probably think of a few Job Specific weaponskills. I think i might do that. I wish this website had Spoiler tags so i can make them in a way everyone didn't have to read them >__>

Seriha

06-13-2011, 12:50 PM

Think code tags would create a scroll bar if you get long enough, which seems likely if you do a WS for all 20 jobs with a bit of a description for each.

Aurara

06-20-2011, 01:59 AM

Can i just ask two questions, why do you guys want to be able to melee so bad, and why do you think that you'll be able to keep up with other DDs?

Seriha

06-20-2011, 03:43 AM

Can i just ask two questions, why do you guys want to be able to melee so bad, and why do you think that you'll be able to keep up with other DDs?

For the sake of quelling yet another troll attempt from a BG regular, just read the thread. I know it'll make your sensitive brain hurt, cause you to think we're retards, and bring about all sorts of implying you know better if sticking with the "mage" side, but the answers are here and don't exactly focus on matching or exceeding the DPS of others if a desired utility is involved. Your questions are loaded with the implication it's not worth the trade-off. Such is something we're trying to address. Ultimately, if it ever is worth it, the efficiency-mongers lose a leg to stand on and all that really would be left is RDMs occasionally combating a shortage of healers and being pushed into the role, but that's a problem that springs up in any MMO and nothing "fixing RDM" could do anything about.

Duelle

06-20-2011, 06:20 AM

Aurara

06-20-2011, 09:10 AM

For the sake of quelling yet another troll attempt from a BG regular, just read the thread. I know it'll make your sensitive brain hurt, cause you to think we're retards, and bring about all sorts of implying you know better if sticking with the "mage" side, but the answers are here and don't exactly focus on matching or exceeding the DPS of others if a desired utility is involved. Your questions are loaded with the implication it's not worth the trade-off. Such is something we're trying to address. Ultimately, if it ever is worth it, the efficiency-mongers lose a leg to stand on and all that really would be left is RDMs occasionally combating a shortage of healers and being pushed into the role, but that's a problem that springs up in any MMO and nothing "fixing RDM" could do anything about.

The problem is that you assumed that just because i'm a "BG regular" i would come in and start bashing you, calling you names, etc...which i had no intention of doing, nor do i have the intention of belittling you. All I'm curious about is why you guys want to melee high level mobs so badly? You require an enormous amount of gear for rdm as it is, enhancing set, haste set PDT/MDT/Enfeebling/MND/etc. Then there is the melee set. I really do not care if you guys want to melee things. Sure, it's a lot of fun, i melee on rdm too...except its in situations like campaign, or when i'm just messing around with friends. I don't think you guys seem to understand that RDM melee is just not efficient. You require so much gear to even hit the mob, not to mention food etc. There is also the fact that 99.99% of RDM who melee dont do it right, melee in full mage gear, and fail at their duties as rdm, which include: refresh2/haste/debuff/cure/na spells, etc.

Duelle

06-20-2011, 10:48 AM

There is also the fact that 99.99% of RDM who melee dont do it right, melee in full mage gear, and fail at their duties as rdm, which include: refresh2/haste/debuff/cure/na spells, etc.I heard -na spells are native to RDM, and that WHM is the premium sub for melee (cue Kanye West saying "Yo /NIN, I'm real happy for you and Imma let you finish, but /WHM is the best melee sub of all time! Of. All. Time!"). :O

Aurara

06-20-2011, 10:50 AM

You see, you're poking holes in my arguments to try to make them not hold water. If you want to melee, go right on ahead, except that rdm/whm or rdm/sch is hands down best combo for most things. Also if you're really advocating rdm/nin then lol, because rdm/nin is so useful for when you're done building time and ready to start NMs/farming.

Duelle

06-20-2011, 11:59 AM

You see, you're poking holes in my arguments to try to make them not hold water.And here I thought we were being getting along so well...

Also if you're really advocating rdm/nin then lol, because rdm/nin is so useful for when you're done building time and ready to start NMs/farming.I'm not advocating anything, to be honest. Just playing off the accepted standards. I'm more about /DNC, but that's because I like instant cast abilities that cleanse status ailments.

The sub is supposed to be part of the kit that shows what you've chosen your role to be. Gear is supposed to be the other part. Since SE screwed up by allowing gear swapping mid-combat, they effectively negated one of RDM's balancing factors. In Tanaka and Matsui's heads, the players were supposed to just allow a job to be played with a main/sub set up of choice and designed Red Mage around the idea of gear and sub being the determining factors of how you play. That didn't pan out because people became obsessed with max exp/hour and a class like RDM in its hybrid glory did not fit that model, hence the "leper of all trades" era, followed by the enfeebling and refresh band-aids that shackled us to the back line.

Seriha

06-20-2011, 12:26 PM

See, you failed the proverbial litmus test in basically not showing the willingness to read the thread. Like others who have come before, you've parroted on about how RDMs should only ever entertain swinging at things that don't matter, and indirectly how your problem with things a WHM should be doing is suddenly a RDM's problem. You've assumed they're all geared like ass and have nothing positive to bring to the encounter.

Well, that latter sentiment isn't exactly something we disagree with, and part of why we banter about needing better gear, more melee-oriented spells/abilities, and incentives to off-set the risk a melee RDM otherwise brings to those seeking perfection. We've bounced ideas, yes. We don't expect any or all to stick. People will never agree on finality with the direction of a multi-purpose job. We merely hope SE considers the position and hope that RDM might actually have an identity, a purpose, come 99, because right now, it's never a go-to choice on anything "that matters" and that's FFXI speak for "RDMs don't matter" and, by proxy, the people behind them who'd actually like to play the job as more than a WHM substitute just don't matter, and thus fetch the aggressive rhetoric when we try to oppose that position.

If you're genuinely interested, by all means, propose something you feel might help change your current perception. As with the offer I made to Eeeks before he seemingly got banned, if you've got ideas for the magic side that RDMs should focus on, we'd like to hear 'em, too. Just don't be surprised if something like Cure V is met with hostility.

Aurara

06-20-2011, 01:06 PM

If you REALLY want my opinion, give RDM Cure V, so that they arent given the shaft in abyssea, as it stands they can't keep up with healing for the most part. My argument is that i'm not so much against RDM melee, it's the fact that so many people who do it, do it completely wrong(as i stated earlier, meleeing in mage gear, and genereally not gear swapping). My other problem is that it's difficult for you to keep up, and you're also in range of TP moves, etc meaning you're casting cures on yourself, or SS, cutting your melee time. Granted i have used Death Blossom to be able to debuff certain mobs(i.e Khim and Cerb at 75) and that was neat. But I'm not against you, i just would like you to get an understanding of what i feel rdm needs, and at this time i dont think more en-spells, melee gear, or DD abilities is what RDM needs at this time in the game.

Doombringer

06-20-2011, 02:20 PM

meh.. i could take cure5 or leave it. sorta risks the pink mage/death of all whm's situation from the toa spampage era. not to mention i didn't pick whm because i didn't wanna be a whm.. you asked why rdms would want to melee things, i won't try to answer for everyone but at least for me... that's what rdm IS.

it's a full third of the job.. or at least a full third of the job that SE sold me way back when i started the game.

you might say why invite an rdm if he's meleeing.. i would say, why invite one if he isn't? and if the game is setup in such a way that meleeing on rdm is BAD, then the game (or at least the job) is broken..

wich is what we're talking about. fixing rdm.

edit: wich is also why we get frustrated when ppl pop in with the same old lolmeleerdm BS. we know... we know so much that we made a great big thread about it to try and get se to make it not so lol...

Seriha

06-20-2011, 02:22 PM

So, if not now, when? Because this isn't a suddenly new development and you know it.

I'm not gonna sit here and pretend to be Nostradamus, but given my initial reply and subsequent replies you've given since then, no matter what we say or do will apparently get your seal of approval for RDM melee anytime soon. Why would you bother asking, then, if the intent was not drama fodder for BG's happy fun thread where you and Neisan are having a good ol' time paraphrasing and taking things out of context?

Okay, so you're not against us, but I'm having a hard time believing you're with us. Help me wrap my head around this attempt at neutrality when you pretty much pin the worst thing SE could do to us for broadening RDM's scope and individuality by giving Cure V and insisting on further ignorance of martial issues that existed even under the 75 cap and have only gotten worse through inaction toward RDM and the advancement of other jobs. That doesn't at all sound like neutrality or compromise, just the shoveling of more of the same crap RDM's had to wade through since people couldn't find WHMs back in the day.

Aurara

06-20-2011, 02:41 PM

Because, you don't seem to understand how difficult it would be to boost rdm melee dmg. I just would like you to realize how much would need to be changed in order to make rdm even remotely good. Even WITH Almace, rdm/war, 26% haste gear, you still wouldnt contribute as much dmg as other DDs would. From what i hear, somebody said they would not cure themselves on rdm because that was a "back line mage's job". Why do you have cures then? You also are not factoring in the fact that most people suck at melee rdm, and melee in mage gear and hit nothing, or the fact that Subtle Blow is nearly non-existant on rdm, so you would be feeding the mob unnecessary amounts of TP, which would do more harm than good for your group.

Doombringer

06-20-2011, 03:09 PM

From what i hear, somebody said they would not cure themselves on rdm because that was a "back line mage's job".

what? who?

you're judging us based on something you "heard" some guy said?

comon guy...

also, we don't need to do as much dmg as a full dd job, that'd be op anyway. we just need to do enough dmg to justify the effort.

as for most meleeing rdms sucking at it... yah.. but why does that mean the job can't be fixed? i'm guessing most rdms don't bother to gear for melee because atm all it gets them is laughed off the internet. one of the suggestions earlier was an rdm melee set in the same spirit as the perle set. not great, but an easy starting point. think of how many dd jobs use perle? now imagine if they didn't have that? how shitty would they be geared? should they not be meleeing on those jobs?

it seems like your argument is that rdm melee needs to much to be valid? if se wanted to they could fix it in one update. i can do it right now. it'd be lazy and overpowering, but i can make it up off the top of my head. give rdm access to every piece of armor in the game. give them access to all swords, an A+ sword skill, and all sword ws' natively. give them duel wield, att bonus, acc bonus, eva bonus (and A+ in evasion), def bonus, tactical parry (and A+ in parying), double attack, triple attack, and sublte blow job traits. (top tier, of course) triple, hell quadruple enspell dmg. then while we're at it, change rdm base stat spread to give them str like a drk and dex like a thf.

there you go. rdm melee is now perfectly valid, all with things that are already in the game, and the job is crazy broken. my whole point is that "yes" and "no" are not answers to this thread. we're not talking about if, we're talking about how. my "solution" above is obviously not a GOOD answer to "how" but it's just to make a point. if THAT rdm still can't melee, then... there's just no talking to you...

Seriha

06-20-2011, 03:11 PM

"Man, I partied with this crappy WAR once, I should never invite one to my parties again."

You know that's pretty much the equivalent of what you're saying, right? Bad players will be bad at whatever job regardless of what SE does, but to proclaim this some insurmountable task is just you being self-defeating.

Look, I've seen the goobers in Errant, and I guess Teal these days. Part of why RDM suffers is because gear typically is an either/or choice with no sign of strong hybrid pieces in sight (Like it or not, not everyone uses Windower, scripts, and Spellcast). Repeat old counter-argument of how RDMs just want broken gear, blah, blah, where the net effect is really just an inventory+x while at the same time reducing the catastrophe of these shitty RDMs if the gear itself is reasonable enough to acquire (Let's avoid the rare drop from a 21-24hr+ NM please, thanks).

Meanwhile, while we don't discount the value of meaningful damage, "the point" (and not in the sharp weapon kind of way), is that while the RDM might not be putting up a WAR's numbers, curing as well as a WHM, nuking as hard as a BLM, or doling out the same kind of support as a BRD, they could be doing unique things like breaking a mob's immunities, further debilitating TP moves so their TP feed isn't so much a detriment, and just ideally meshing some flavors of enfeebling and enhancing in the process that don't center around boring, monotonous cycles that could just as easily be done from the back with a skill-less staff weapon. Should the flow of battle suddenly change, they should have the means to shift gears and maybe help cover for a weakened party member's role until they're back up to speed, but otherwise MP will be the definitive limiter for those afraid of overpowering the job, with a side of recast timers that hopefully wouldn't suck.

Aurara

06-20-2011, 03:20 PM

Seriha

06-20-2011, 03:30 PM

No, I've read what you've typed. I've read it all before. Maybe not from you, but the usual naysayers and "don't bother!"-ers (..er) for 7+ years of melee advocacy and requests for buffs from SE. We come out swinging because you've brought up nothing new, at the same time, by not going through this thread or others, seeing that we've bounced possible ideas to counter any and all of those detriments.

Consider the recent AGI changes, Gain-AGI, and a potential tweak to Enaero that grants Subtle Blow reflective of the buff's damage. Would something like 25 or more Subtle Blow between the two be something to scoff at on top of /NIN's offerings? Now, pair this with a debuff that not only slows the ready time of TP moves akin to Addle, but lowers their fTP/damage values to the point where maybe a one-shot move isn't one-shotting anyone anymore, and as an added bonus, your attentive BLMs, DRKs, or BLUs could actually stun it. Have we hit, "End of the world!" status yet? Because I think Gogglehead made a crack about me causing that if SE ever listened to me about RDM.

Aurara

06-20-2011, 03:35 PM

No, I've read what you've typed. I've read it all before. Maybe not from you, but the usual naysayers and "don't bother!"-ers (..er). We come out swinging because you've brought up nothing new, at the same time, by not going through this thread or others, seeing that we've bounced possible ideas to counter any and all of those detriments.
No reason to come out swinging, especially when I'm trying to be civil with you.

Consider the recent AGI changes, Gain-AGI, and a potential tweak to Enaero that grants Subtle Blow reflective of the buff's damage. Would something like 25 or more Subtle Blow between the two be something to scoff at on top of /NIN's offerings? Now, pair this with a debuff that not only slows the ready time of TP moves akin to Addle, but lowers their fTP/damage values to the point where maybe a one-shot move isn't one-shotting anyone anymore, and as an added bonus, your attentive BLMs, DRKs, or BLUs could actually stun it. Have we hit, "End of the world!" status yet? Because I think Gogglehead made a crack about me causing that if SE ever listened to me about RDM.

This is a bad argument, because any DD/nin or not /nin will cap subtle blow from auspice and rajas ring for the most part. Also Scherzo and Earthen Armor+Migwari remove the danger of being 1 shotted.

Seriha

06-20-2011, 03:42 PM

So, if it's not a problem because of those buffs, why bring it up? Assumption that every party/alliance has a BRD+SMN aside.

Aurara

06-20-2011, 10:41 PM

For things like voidwatch, i am going to assume that the tank party has a smn+brd.

Daniel_Hatcher

06-20-2011, 10:58 PM

For things like voidwatch, i am going to assume that the tank party has a smn+brd.

FFXI Needs more BRD's not a lot of people level it and use it sadly. :(

Neisan_Quetz

06-20-2011, 11:28 PM

I see two outcomes, either a) a melee update is substantial and Rdm can melee on par/better than other dualwielders and we go back to the TaU pre sch release sitaution in another direction (people will still bring Thf for TH and DNC will still be useful for haste samba/spot healing/flourish, unless Rdm can suddenly give potent buffs beyond what it has), or b) it isn't substantial and does nothing to change the job. I don't see SE managing the middle ground when it comes to Rdm and melee, maybe their original plan for Rdm reached a hitch due to people having different ideas about what direction Rdm should go in (kinda like this forum, who'd thunk it), they think focusing on melee wasn't what they wanted for all but one mage class, whatever. Doom mentioned fixing Rdm but outside of Abyssea is Rdm really -that- broken? Outside of Eearthen Armor/PD I'd say Smn has a host of problems, yet perhaps that's balance in SE's eyes for being a pet class with hateless damage, Idk. Not to say a melee update (that isn't useless, see b)wouldn't be nice but what does it really change? Either you're going to be in a situation where it's viable to melee or fighting something where it's not, unless the update is such your melee becomes viable on harder mobs? Would that still maintain balance considering Rdm's current spells/abilities? Just adding JA haste to Composure(10-15%)/improving the amount of accuracy given by it/giving +Attack (subtle blow is a bonus but doesn't really affect meleeing) to Enspell 1s (much less actually fixing 2) could make Rdm melee either equal to or better than Blu (assumed current best gear for each and an IT 97 mob) for instance. Is that the direction you think it should while maintaining everything else, or is something else going need to be nerfed for a sort of 'melee stance' allowing Rdm to melee?

To answer your 'drama fodder' question: I used to be upset about it then accepted Rdm not being useful everywhere and especially not meleeing was most likely going to happen. It doesn't really change things for me either way, I'm still going to play a job I like depending on the sitaution, and Rdm while not excellent is still useful in lowman groups outside of Abyssea. In my eyes the point of a generalist job is to be good enough at performing roles without exceeding a specialist in any (in which case Rdm is still the best enfeebling job, whether you agree having better enfeebles is necessary or not), and I accept in a MMO environment such a job is going to have failings in at least one if not several fields. Even though it was a pseudo MMO environment .hack/G.U.'s Adept rogue stands out to me as a case of a generalist job failing, as while it could learn many spells and use many weapons for different situations, it gained weapons skills slowly, it couldn't learn higher tier magic, and was considered too difficult to use that most people thought of the job as undesirable except in - lowman/solo situations where it could decently fill a role assuming you didn't have a specialist.

If there was a melee update I'm behind JA haste for composure/Subtle Blow/attack+ for enspells/reworking enspell 2s all at once, even if I don't think one is absolutely necessary. Nice? Yes. Will job be useless absolutely everywhere without it? No.

Oh yea, if it wasn't obvious I was being half sarcastic but that's really the tone I get from some of these posts.

Hyrist

06-21-2011, 02:05 AM

We seriously need a RDM Melee FAQ for those who want to jump into arguments late... I think I did years ago but it can stand a revisiting.

Also, I love how people post like being a full DD is the aims and goals of a Red Mage in the front lines, that's hilarious.

Haven't we been going on for years listing possible utilities that can be used instead?

Honestly, screw damage, the best way to get BG Flops to agree to a RDM meleeing is to give RDM an Enspell that actively damages TP based on the exact formula as an Enspell 1. Meaning, a skilled RDM with a multhit build could seriously spread out the target enemies TP moves.

It would inverse the "Don't feeds the monsters tp!" Argument completely and take damage out of the equation. A RDM would be meleeing to slow down the enemy's TP attacks.

It'd make RDM absolutely broken solo, though. Though perhaps an anit-solo mechanic can be put into it to prevent such abuse, like a resistance over (large periods of) time increase. Or gains resistance quickly if there are no other attacks.

For those who don't get why RDMs desire to be in the front lines (even casually). You need to check on your history of FF. It's a selling point of the job, even if the mechanics make it hell to do and ineffective compared to pure damage dealers. If SE is going to continue featuring Red Mage with a sword at all (especially with something like Sagasinger.) I want them to back up what they advertise, period.

The fact that this is even an argument points out that both the job needs to be reworked, or at the bare minimum given a mechanic that will appease those who want absolutely nothing but the best.

Neisan_Quetz

06-21-2011, 02:36 AM

Isn't being able to viably DD idk, the point of a melee update? Unless you're looking for Enspell 2 2.0, that was a melee update too (a massively failed one, but a melee update nonetheless).

ManaKing

06-21-2011, 02:51 AM

I don't think you're reading what I'm actually typing, and again, are trying to poke holes in my argument to make it seem as if I'm the one who is "dumb" or wrong. This whole time have I belittled you guys at all? no, not really. I read what you guys posted, and all you do is come out at me swinging, saying how I'm wrong, and that "RDM is capable of meleeing" I'm not disagreeing, but i really think you have no idea what buffing melee rdm would do, literally nothing. People would still melee in mage gear, not swapping gear for enfeebs, cures, buffs, etc(which is a large portion of the job itself, since it has a great enhancing skill lvl as well as enfeeb). You are not factoring in the extra TP feed that you are giving the mob, not accounting for how many TP moves can actually 1 shot, or nearly kill DDs from full HP, what on earth makes you think you will survive these TP moves? You certainly wont, unless you bring PDT/MDT sets, which would mean even more gear to carry around on TOP of your enfeebling/curing/haste/enhancing/MND sets, i struggle to get 75/80 inventory slots on RDM, and thats WITHOUT MDT/melee set.

LOL REALLY?

RDM is one of the toughest jobs in the game. The only reason we aren't sitting pretty like a DNC, THF, and NIN is because we don't have decent evasion. We can't just put on some ok gear and make mobs miss 90% or their hits.

Lol im not sure if you are aware of this, but we have phallanx, ^_^;. Just because we can give it to others doesn't mean we can't cast in on ourselves.

When I melee I don't even bother with /NIN because Stoneskin is amazing on RDM. If you have all the gear required for it you can easily boost Stone Skin over the potency of Cure IV.

When I'm fighting actual NMs that will 1 Shot DDs. It is usually the DDs that get one shot and I'm usually the one standing. And the funny thing is, if the reason that the mob is 1 shotting someone is magic, then I'm still not going to die. Magic Defense Bonus + Barspells + Phallanx + Stoneskin + Blink. Sorry you couldn't see what was obviously there because it's not for you.

I'm also sorry that RDM have to work for their gear to be good. But we do. If you've seen more RDM that were bad. They probably had crap gear. Horribly sorry we didnt get included on any of the easy to get gear sets that we could have been included on.

Hyrist

06-21-2011, 02:56 AM

Those who look at Enspell II's as a failure were not paying attention to the target levels they were to be applied at: Namely levels 51-70. (@ 75 camp we were doing upwards of 80% of Damage dealers, fully built.) It did exactly as it was designed to do: Ease the use of front lining in low levels.

The gripe is that it did absolutely nothing more, and the fact that it does not factor Enhancing Skill on cast makes it pitiful as a substitute to Enspell Is even when wanting to gain the effect of Sambas while dual wielding.

But between it, and Composure, the only reasons not to melee in that level range was simply the lack of available healers.

When abyssea came out, it rendered the entire situation moot anyways, and without any real post 70s utilities, the spell is viewed as a total failure.

But no, Enspell IIs are a product of discussions on how to make lower level Red Mages catch up during the 50-70 level gap where our performance dipped so considerably that it lead to the staff stigma. But as usual, too little, too late for SE.

What needs to be done now is a more permanent solution. The most persistantly annoying argument against Red Mages in the front line is that our 'damage does not justify the TP we give the monster'. Which makes two base assumptions:

1) Red Mage is meleeing on monsters with horrendous enough TP attacks to warrant such an arguments.
2) Red Mages want to/should deal as much damage as dedicated DDs.

Both are utterly false, but any tactics situations in which these arguments get addressed by pro-melee enthusiasts, they instantly get told that they are not valid off the grounds that "Well that situation doesn't matter." or "X job can do that better." as if we WANT to play X job or find it remotely enjoyable.

Which really does narrow down our solutions to one: Have Red Mage deal negative TP gain to the monsters in question. At that point, a Red Mage can do Lulzy damage, and it would not matter. The fact that someone is both Tping free of additional risk, as well as lowering the risk for those around them, would widely broaden Red Mage's acceptability in the front lines.

There will still be monsters that may be too risky to be in the front lines with, but it would address all of the major cruxes that make this job broken due to social stigmas against it. (False Advertising of job role, Unfair Competition/Priority on Trophy gear such as relic/empyrean weapons, melee gear, Fitting the front line support caster role.)

The more I hear arguments against RDM Front Lining, the more I believe this is the number one solution.

@Aurara

A lot of what RDM brings to a fight is placebo, as far as mage gear goes. If something as simple as say, your nuking gear, was set aside in a fight you knew you were going to be frontlining more and nuking less, it could be put in your satchel and you'd have enough from for MBD/PDT gear.

That said, Red Mage has the most native tools to reduce damage, and can sub for the best. As far as magical damge goes. We're Tied with Scholar for the highest Enhancing Skill in the game, and our Bar spells are nothing to scoff at. When I have them up, I typically will survive an attack that will wipe a group.

Combined with Stoneskin, Phalanx, native MDB, and our ability to cure ourselves to save the WHM the trouble, we're just as durable if not more so than most the melee's out there.

A better argument would be NMs with nasty status effects (Seps for example.) Those would be the kinds we'd avoid, and probably still have to avoid if we were to get an update.

Neisan_Quetz

06-21-2011, 02:56 AM

ManaKing

06-21-2011, 03:02 AM

FFXI Needs more BRD's not a lot of people level it and use it sadly. :(

COR is just too cool man. It's the hat/eye patch combo. I can't resist it.

The more I hear it the more I believe it (negative tp gain from mobs) would either be useless or too useful to the point of being nerfed to uselessness.

Yeah I can't disagree I'm brainstorming something else. I'll post in a little bit.

Hyrist

06-21-2011, 03:08 AM

* 80%, Phalanx doesn't block enough on high damage single hits (yes I know it's a nice damage reduction tool but you can't overplay how useful it is on harder mobs), What are you fighting that is so weak you only need SS/phalanx on, too much DD on something that is constantly one shotting your DD is bad strategy/someone is doing something wrong (bar VW).

The more I hear it the more I believe it (negative tp gain from mobs) would either be useless or too useful to the point of being nerfed to uselessness.

Single hits are usually subject to blind/utsu/blink defences, those that bypass, it's not as if we don't have PDT gear, you're just arguing semantics if you believe a RDM knowing what they're doing when, can't fit in a PDT set.

Magical damage wise goes, Red Mage is rather incredible for resisting magic damage with the appropriate barspell up. Again, Addle is effective on Magical TP moves as well as spells as far as Magical Accuracy reduction.

As far as an Anti-TP ability, it can be balanced. Bare minimum, all it has to do is offset the TP gain we give the mob + maybe a few extra. And to prevent Solo abuse, you can have it rapidly decay or be resisted if no one else is hitting the mob.

ManaKing

06-21-2011, 03:18 AM

A better argument would be NMs with nasty status effects (Seps for example.) Those would be the kinds we'd avoid, and probably still have to avoid if we were to get an update.

Funny How that happens

Karbuncle

06-21-2011, 03:20 AM

Aurara

06-21-2011, 03:23 AM

LOL REALLY?

RDM is one of the toughest jobs in the game. The only reason we aren't sitting pretty like a DNC, THF, and NIN is because we don't have decent evasion. We can't just put on some ok gear and make mobs miss 90% or their hits.
RDM isnt difficult, it's a VERY busy job, but not difficult. Here you go attacking me without a good argument because i showed how your argument was faulty.

Lol im not sure if you are aware of this, but we have phallanx, ^_^;. Just because we can give it to others doesn't mean we can't cast in on ourselves.
I'm very much aware we have phalanx, it is a very powerful spell, but it can only do so much...

When I melee I don't even bother with /NIN because Stoneskin is amazing on RDM. If you have all the gear required for it you can easily boost Stone Skin over the potency of Cure IV.

When I'm fighting actual NMs that will 1 Shot DDs. It is usually the DDs that get one shot and I'm usually the one standing. And the funny thing is, if the reason that the mob is 1 shotting someone is magic, then I'm still not going to die. Magic Defense Bonus + Barspells + Phallanx + Stoneskin + Blink. Sorry you couldn't see what was obviously there because it's not for you.
So you're saying if you were meleeing you wouldnt cure yourself? Cause max SS rdm gets is 350+30+30+20+20=450 SS, and if the spell/TP move does more, your SS is broken also, MDT does jack if the TP move is physical, and barspells dont reduce dmg, they increase your chance to resist, and if you resist your dmg is reduced, also blink isnt that reliable.

I'm also sorry that RDM have to work for their gear to be good. But we do. If you've seen more RDM that were bad. They probably had crap gear. Horribly sorry we didnt get included on any of the easy to get gear sets that we could have been included on.

See, by this you're assuming my rdm gear is poor, or that gear for rdm in general is hard to get, which it can be for some, but for the most part it isn't hard.

Hyrist

06-21-2011, 03:30 AM

I don't think Subbing NIN was because of Shadows completely, its also the Dual Wield III that will massively boost your DPS when Dual Wielding :D

Just saying, If you can't figure that out you're the reason RDM melee gets a horrible name (outside of other things).

If you're going to Melee on RDM at least try to do it as right as possible, /NIN is a good start. Well, its the only start. No other sub job is going to make up for nearly 25% (?) Delay Reduction. If you're going to try and argue /SCH or something for utility (-Na Spells), and not using /NIN, I think you found the reason Melee RDM Suffers so much in the eyes of the community.

In order to become more effective in Melee damage, you have to give up something on your mage side (/nin or /mage)

Beleive me, you don't need to tell me about Dual Wield.

Though I tend to balance /DNC with /NIN depending on situation/composition. If no Dancer available (or I know the dancer is going to be using Fan Dance) /DNC's Haste Samba for the party vastly outweighs additional dual weild for myself. It also comes with me being able to stack up Dia III with Box Step, JA's for Dynamis procs, etc. So there's some situational value in that subjob if you're taking the front lines on RDM.

But for straight damage/defense, RDM isn't going to get better than /nin.

But it's well known among those who front line RDM consistently that a choice is made out the mog house in what role you're playing. Front Line RDM just doesn't play the same way.

As far as avoiding Seps, it depends on the situation. All that's needed is one outside healer, and a RDM going /dnc can be the one to wake his party without the healer wasting a curega.