Staff Relic/Empyreans/Mythics need adjustment

[Pebe]

Warning I did not check this for spelling and grammar errors.

Part 1.a: The endgame "Melee Staff"
(mainly focusing on Claustrum and Hvergelmir, plenitas Virga is for refernece)

Claustrum Rare Ex
[Main] All Races
DPS: 1738 DMG:113 Delay:390 Accuracy+40 "Gate of Tartarus" Additional effect: Dispel Afterglow
LV 99 BLM SMN

Hvergelmir Rare Ex
[Main] All Races
DPS: 1738 DMG:113 Delay:390 MP+150 "Myrkr" Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage
LV 99 BLM SMN SCH

Plenitas Virga Rare Ex
[Main] All Races
DPS: 1633 DMG:98 Delay:360 HP+100 MP+100 INT+20 Accuracy+15 Attack+15 Haste+3%
LV 99 WAR MNK WHM BLM PLD BRD DRG SMN SCH

If you look at both Hvergelmir and Claustrum, they obviously share the same role. Both have the same delay, same damage, and a weaponskill whose purpose is to restore mp. They are both pretty even at dealing damage, In the "melee staff sense" they are the highest damage staffs in the game and the 40 accuracy on claustrum is a nice bonus considering the selection of mage melee gear combined with mage combat skill levels. But you see... there is an innate problem here. Two out of the three MAGE endgame weapons are designed to MELEE! In my opinion this just doesn't seem right.

The main endgame weapons of a job should enhance an aspect of that job or create a new way to play a job. For example(using only empyreans and relics for now), Apocalypse gave the glass cannon drk an amazing amount of stability. Annihilator and yochi solved the hate problems rangers had. Aegis virtually made magic damage irrelevant, and ochain made phsyical damage irrelevant against plds. Amano enhanced samurai's strength in skillchains by opening up the possibility for double light skill chains.Even Mjollnir enhanced whm melee capabilities. But why could Mjollnir work for WHM when Hvergelmir and Claustrum did not for blm, sch, smn. Four Reasons: Weaponskill Selection, Gear selections, and Job statistics, and the staff weapon class itself.

Weaponskills and Job Stats:
The SINGLE reason why Mjollnir was good for whm melee and one of the reasons whm melee was accept was because of the weaponskill Hexa Strike. On the other hand, the strongest weaponskill for staffs was Retribution. Retributions modfiers are STR and MND. SMN SCH and BLM are tied for 18th in STR and 2nd(smn), 5th(sch) and 9th(blm) for MND. Just recently you developers tried to ninja patch this it seems by releasing the weaponskill shattersoul with its 100% INT modifer, which all three jobs are very high in (first, second and third). However you also released the plenitas virga at the same time with int 20 and 15 attack over both hvergelmir and claustrum, which counters out their 15 base damage difference. (the actual weaponskill one the weapon will be talked about later)

Gear Selections:
The only real source of melee weaponskill stats that blm sch and smn used to be morrigan (sch didn't even get this). Even now melee gear selections are slim to none, again only morrigan +1 seem to be the saving grace of mage melee gear for these three jobs. And you know, in all honesty, that is how it should be. BLM SCH and SMN were not designed as melee jobs(smn being the exception because they can melee with pets), they are mages!

Staff weapon skill itself:
First lets take a look at the strongest double handed weapons:

Apocalypse Rare Ex
[Main] All Races
DPS: 1953 DMG:167 Delay:513 Accuracy+40 "Catastrophe" Additional effect: Blind
LV 99 DRK

and Now strongest single handed weapons:
Almace Rare Ex
[Main] All Races
DPS: 1875 DMG:70 Delay:224 DEX+20 "Chant du Cygne" Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage
LV 99 RDM PLD BLU

Guttler Rare Ex
[Main] All Races
DPS: 1886 DMG:88 Delay:280 Attack+40 "Onslaught" Additional effect: "Choke"
LV 99 BST

As you examine these weapons you can see that the exchange for high delay is high damage and vice versa. The staff weapon category falls in the middle of these two categories. It does not have a high enough delay to be considered a true 2-handed weapon so does not get its damage, but at the same time its delay is high enough that it has a really slow attack speed even with capped haste. The mages also get no job specific tools to enhance their melee capabilities, IE Last resort + desperate blows.
So what we have is mediocre melee weapons in the middle of two categories of weapons.

Conclusion from Part 1.a
-As a result, of weak weaponskill selections(and plenitas virga over shadowing on shattersoul), gear selections, job statistics, and the placement of staff in the weapon category, Claustrum and Hvergelmir fail to substantial enhance BLM SCH and SMN melee capabilities to make melee on these jobs even worth it. Thus they fail as melee staffs.

Part 1.b: Weaponskills of the "Melee Staffs"
-Because of Part 1.a, they only saving grace that these weapons have is their unique weapons skills and the additional effects of these weaponskills. As stated before, both of these effects aim to restore mp (The attack down of Gates of Tartarus is neglible because it doesn't stack with other attack down effects). Hvergelmir does an amazing job in its mp restoration role. It heals 20/40/60% of your mp for 100/200/300 tp respectively. Claustrum on the other hand gives a 8mp tick refresh for 20/40/60 seconds, which is 6/13/20 ticks, which is 48/104/160 mp respectively. On BLM and SCH I have a base of around 1200 to 1300 mp, 1500 to 1700 on smn. Thus, Claustrum barely reaches the ability to restore 10% of ones mp at 300 tp. Thus Claustrum fails at not only being a melee weapon, but also as an mp restoration tool. Gates of Tartarus does do damage as, however, it has an extremely low base damage on the weaponskill and it is a CHR mod which is an extremely wierd mod for these three jobs because none of them even use chr in anything they do(unless there is some hidden chr/smn effects).

Part 1.b Conclusion
-Hvergelmir has a nice role as an mp restoration staff and it does it very well. However, Claustrum fails at this role, and both staves fail at the melee role.

Part 1.c The solution to "Melee Staffs"
-So what we have are two bad melee weapons both with restore mp abilities(one being garbage). As a result, I believe it would be best to adjust claustrum into a mage staff and not a melee staff, or at least give it a weaponskill that sets it apart as a melee staff, but preferably the former.We do not need two garbage melee staffs, one is accepting (Hvergelmir).The problem though is how do you make Claustrum useful to blm and smn without changing the "relic design" of acc or attack + ws + effect. The only way to do this unfortunately would be making this a utility staff and keeping the melee aspect (like hvergerlmir unfortunately), but it would have to be a different utility than hvergelmir. And this is what comes to mind.

Claustrum Rare Ex
[Main] All Races
DPS: 1738 DMG:113 Delay:390 Accuracy+40 "Gate of Tartarus"
Occasional Quickens Spellcasting + 25%
LV 99 BLM SMN

Also Gates of tartarus additonal effect would change from refresh to occasional increases spellcasting by 25% for a max total of 50% when combined, which should be the cap. This would make Claustrum much sought after and useful in my opinions because it opens up alot of interesting options. Or if you think 50% quick cast would be too overpowered on one piece, I would then increase the quickcast on the weapon to 35% and make the additional effect of gates of tartarus magic crit hit rate + 20%. This should last even if you unequip the weapon and have a duration of 180 seconds at 300 tp. Adding unique and rare stats like these would make Claustrum interesting, sought after and useful. And Hvergelmir would remain the mp restoration tool. It does well at that role already. Personally though, I think the restoration should be 33/66/100% for the mp but whatever.

Part 2 Mythic Mage Might

Part a: The Enlightened Perfection of Nirvava

Nirvana Rare Ex
[Main] All Races
DPS: 1552 DMG:104 Delay:402 Accuracy+30 Avatar perpetuation cost -8 Avatar: "Magic Atk. Bonus"+40 "Garland of Bliss" Aftermath (Incl. Avatars): Inc. Acc./Atk., Occ. attacks 2-3 times
LV 99 SMN

Let me preface with this, Mythics 99 cost 3 times more than relic and empyreans, and also have a butt ton of work that goes with the money cost as well. As such, these should be the strongest weapons hands down. Now let us look at Nirvana. It has acc +30 to help get tp to trigger aftermath becauses have low acc(good). Avatar perp - is al magian staffs combined +1 (PERFECT). Avatar magic attack bonus +40 destroys all for magical blood pacts (PERFECT). Garland of Bliss is a magical weaponskill and never misses (PERFECT - could use a base damage increase on the ws). All parts of aftermath proc on smn's main focus, their pets. (..PERFECT).

Nirvana is the true mage mythic weapon and all mythic weapons should use it as an example. So lets move on:

Part b: Meteor Ahoy!

Laevateinn Rare Ex
[Main] All Races
DPS: 1552 DMG:104 Delay:402 Accuracy+30 Magic Acc.+10 "Magic Atk. Bonus"+60 Enhances "Elemental Seal" effect "Vidohunir" Aftermath: Inc. Mag. Acc./Mag. Atk. Occ. attacks twice or thrice
LV 99 BLM

Laevateinn has pretty much been coined the meteor staff because without its aftermath the magian trial staffs at 99 surpass laevatein's damage due to diminishing returns. The enhances elemental is only good for once every 10 mins, an epeen shot or strategic meteor. For the most difficult staff to get in the game, that is UNNACCEPTABLE. My main beef with this staff is that it should surpass magian at all times, aftermath or not, and the aftermath should just enhance it further. Now for melee mythics this shouldn't be the case, melees should strive for aftermath, but its harder for blms to get aftermath and so the aftermath should just be a bonus imo. The enhances elemental seal, accuracy, vidohunir are all fine. What should happen is that magic attack bonus + 60 should be removed and replaced with Magic Damage +7. The trial staffs have magic damage +6, laevateiin should be all magic damage +7 including non elemental meteor. Also part 3 of the aftermath should enhance magic damage, considering nirvana's occ attack twice and thrice procs on bloodpacts if i'm not mistaken. So does ryohigne on drakesbane etc.

My perfect Laevateinn:

Laevateinn Rare Ex
[Main] All Races
DPS: 1552 DMG:104 Delay:402 Accuracy+30 Magic Acc.+10 Magic Damage +7 Enhances "Elemental Seal" effect "Vidohunir" Aftermath: Inc. Mag. Acc./Mag. Atk. Occ. deals double(or triple - might be overpowered) magic damage
LV 99 BLM

Part c: The All-Knowing?

[Main] All Races
DPS: 1552 DMG:104 Delay:402 Accuracy+30 Magic Acc.+30 "Magic Atk. Bonus"+40 Same elemental magic as weather: Enmity-20 "Omniscience" Aftermath: Inc. Mag. Acc./Mag. Atk. Occ. attacks twice or thrice
LV 99 SCH

Before I talk about this take a quick review at nirvana and Laevateinn. What did those two staffs do for their jobs> Nirvana greatly enhanced smns physical and magical bloodpacts as well as their mp management issue. It baseically touched on every aspect of the job itself besides elemental siphon and avatar's favor. What does Laevateinn attempt to do for blm? It attempts to make blm into a magical laser cannon of doom(i described why it fails above). Even though Laevateiin fails it still targets to enhance the jobs strength as much as possible, it has a clear focus. So let us ask ourselves, what does Tupsimati attempt to do for sch. To start, it looks like tupsimati is focused on the magical damage aspect of sch instead of sch as a whole. We must remember sch is a hybrid that focuses on many roles. I mean it is ok to focus on one role, but to half ass it that badly I mean come on. Lets go step by step, this might take a while:

Acc +30: Fine for getting aftermath

Magic acc +30: If this was on the 75 version I'd say cool because it surpass the inital elemental staff hqs. But for a 99 staff....pathetic. BLM staff focus is sheer magic damage, thats why I'm fine with it having low magic acc to balance it if is change as I suggested, or along those lines to strengthen it.

Magic Attack Bonus +40: Same reason for this as blm, but this is even more pathetic. It barely even surpasses the lvl 51 chatoyant staff.And at 75 was beaten by the lvl 51 hq staffs. The end all be all staff beaten by a lvl 51 staff... pathetic.

Same Elemental as Weather: Enmity -20 : Ok so here you guys at SE tried to make use of one of sch's aspects, weather controlled, kudos, but as you can probably see this has no use once so ever. It does not change anything substantial to be a stat on the end all be all sch staff. Especially considering you gave us a strategem that gives 50 enmity- that surpasses the enmity - cap (iirc - i 5/5ed focalization instead so not sure) If you really care about sch enmity control, increase the animus spell potency. With tranquil heart we really have no use for a huge enmity- boost, if i wanted to I would just go merit it.

And finally the aftermath. Same as blm problem, the first two are fine, but the last should be magic specific. So here are my suggestions:

If you wanted to go nuking staff route without overstepping blm boundaries:

[Main] All Races
DPS: 1552 DMG:104 Delay:402 Accuracy+30 Magic Acc.+30 Magic Damage +6 Iridescence, Enhances Light/Dark Arts, "Omniscience" Aftermath: Inc. Mag. Acc./Mag. Atk. Occ. quick casts magic(very high proc rate on 99 weapon, 50% +?)
LV 99 SCH

Enhances Light/Dark Arts - all skills increased to one lvl higher. IE B to B+, B+ to A etc. Iridescence - same as chatoyant staff.

If done this way the sch staff becomes the second best nuking staff to blm but still has uses on the other abilities of the job. The additonal cure potency from iridescence aurastorm, the bonus skills for enhancing and healing magic, etc.

Tupsimati suggestion 2, taking into account soon to come Embrava Kaustra change

[Main] All Races
DPS: 1552 DMG:104 Delay:402 Accuracy+30 Magic Acc.+30 Magic Damage +6 Iridescence, Enhances Embrava and Kaustra, "Omniscience" Aftermath: Inc. Mag. Acc./Mag. Atk. Occ. quick casts magic(very high proc rate on 99 weapon, 50% +?)
LV 99 SCH

This should should add 1 tick of regain per upgrade up to a max of tick regain at 99.
So Embrava with Tupsimati will be Haste Regen refresh and Regain. For a 600M item I think adding this would be fair.

Enhances Kaustra - effect does not wear of when caster dies - this pisses me off sooo much. Or increased Duration.

Tupsimati suggestion 3 - The utility staff

[Main] All Races
DPS: 1552 DMG:104 Delay:402 Accuracy+30 Magic Acc.+30 Magic Damage +5 Enhances Storm Spells, Enhances Light/Dark Arts, "Omniscience" Aftermath: Inc. Mag. Acc./Mag. Atk. Occ. quick casts magic(very high proc rate on 99 weapon, 50% +?)
LV 99 SCH

Enhances Light/Dark Arts is the same
Enhances Storm spells - Increases storm spell effect by 5% per lvl to a max of +25% to a max of 35% at lvl 99. This additional percentage should surpass the storm weather day bonus cap. The new cap would be this storm + another weather effect from the area + day for 35% + this for 60% + Twilight cape for 70% or is it 75% because of double weather idr. Enhances storms should also enhance the stat boost from the merit ability stormsurge. It should gain +1 or +2 stats for each upgrade for a max of +5 or +10 at 99, stormsurge +7 brings that to +12 and +17 and then theres those boots etc. This should make it even to boost spells. No its not overpowered, I just made a 600M item to be even with your 10k boost spell, woopdeedooo >.>. The main bonus would be the tier 3 afterglow and storm effects. This would also be the solution to all the scholars asking for double weather. If you want your sch to be OP then work your ass of for it.

[Alhanelem]

Stopped reading after a few paragraphs. just because an item may be percieved to have a highly specialized use doesn't mean it needs to be changed or is a terrible item. I invested a lot of time and effort in Hrvelgimr and don't regret a moment of it . It is an absolutely wonderful tool for summoner, even if you never swing it (pop TP wing, use myrkr, gain instant MP, without going near the mob, use whatever staff once used). If you're an lolmeleesmn, having one of those staves and fully merited shattersoul substantially increases your damage- I see people running around with perp -7 or more staves on all day, but you don't even need a perp staff at all to negate perp cost anymore. I could somewhat get on board with the idea of changing one or the other of calustrum or empy since they both offer similar functionality, but not both. None of the mythic staves are particularly defective either- If absolutely nothing else, mythic BLM is the best staff for Meteor. Nirvana is good as well. SCH is probably the only one of the three mythics that needs some work.

[Kincard]

If we're going to talk about lolstaffdd, I'm willing to bet a Plenitas Virga is able to outdamage Hvergelmir because using Shattersoul means you don't get to have AM up. Claustrum probably still wins because of ODD procs and such (THough GoT is still garbage).

One thing I really wish they had continued doing with Hvergelmir was having the trials for it separate from other weapons. First it exclusively used Kukulkan's Fangs, then it exclusively used Sedna's Tusks. This made it so that people who were mage melee-crazy enough to go for one wouldn't be stepping on any melee's toes in a LS, so nobody would object to them upgrading the thing. I'd go as far as to say that they should remove Hvergelmir from HMPs and Riftitems and devise an alternate route for it altogether, but that's just me.

Laevateinn and Tupsimati definitely both need work, though the latter moreso than the former. BLM Mythic might be useful for meteor but I think it's really silly to say a weapon that takes so much effort to get should be exclusively useful for a single spell that sees very little use (Aside from VW, I can't think of any event where you'd have multiple BLMs at the ready to begin with, let alone all of them having meteor).

[Damane]

Stopped reading after a few paragraphs. just because an item may be percieved to have a highly specialized use doesn't mean it needs to be changed or is a terrible item. I invested a lot of time and effort in Hrvelgimr and don't regret a moment of it . It is an absolutely wonderful tool for summoner, even if you never swing it (pop TP wing, use myrkr, gain instant MP, without going near the mob, use whatever staff once used). If you're an lolmeleesmn, having one of those staves and fully merited shattersoul substantially increases your damage- I see people running around with perp -7 or more staves on all day, but you don't even need a perp staff at all to negate perp cost anymore. I could somewhat get on board with the idea of changing one or the other of calustrum or empy since they both offer similar functionality, but not both. None of the mythic staves are particularly defective either- If absolutely nothing else, mythic BLM is the best staff for Meteor. Nirvana is good as well. SCH is probably the only one of the three mythics that needs some work.

I dont agree. The only thing of mage weapons SE got right was yagrush. The rest is laughable and imho needs fixing. I would do a mage relic/mythic/empy if the staves would reflect what I want.


without changing what the weapons do when meleeing

Mjollnir:
Put 30% cure potency on it that goes over the cure potency cap and add -20 enmity on top of it.

Claustrum:
Magic Affinity accuracy +7
5% of Elemental magic converted into MP
5% of Bloodpact dmg converted into MP
Avatar: Magic Affinity accuracy +7

Gambanteinn:
Light magic affinity +7 (acc and dmg)
"Ultima" (grants the ability to cast a new spell Ultima that deals high light magic elemental dmg)

Hvergelmir:
magic affinity +6 (acc and dmg)
"Demi" (deals high darkness elemental dmg)
Augments Bloodpacts (gives access to Astral flow bloodpacts, does not give you access to odin or alexander bloodpact, amount of MP needed is 3xsmn level, aka 297 MP at lvl 99, they wont drain all your MP after use)
Avatar: magic affinity +6

Laevateinn:
just add magic affinity +8 on top of everything it allready has

Tupsimati:
just add magic affinity +5 on top of everything it allready has
+ Augments stratagems:
- allows you to AoE via Accession/Manifestation: Reraise I-III, Haste, Blazespike, Icespike, Shockspike, all nukes I-V
- allows you to enhance the potency of the following spells via Rapture 50%/Ebullience 25%: Haste (new 22% haste), Adloquium (new 2 regain per tic), phalanx, enspells, Debuffs: Slow, Paralyze, Blind, Gravity, Blind

honestly thats how relic/empy/mythic staffs/clubs should look alike, they would push the bounders for the mages and open up new options, like the weapons/shields/intruments do for melees/paladin/brds!

[Alhanelem]

I dont agree. The only thing of mage weapons SE got right was yagrush. The rest is laughable and imho needs fixing. I would do a mage relic/mythic/empy if the staves would reflect what I want.Agree to disagree then. all of the staves have some value to somebody. They already push borders and open options. Yours are just straight mage buffs, they don't "open up options." the weapons are level 99, they're done, they're not inventing new spells for them, smn 2hour outside of 2h is ridiculous. Even if they were to revise the weapons, they'd never do anything like you're proposing.

It's really not worth even arguing about because they aren't even going to add jobs to the existing weapons, much less change their effects. There have been multi-hundred post threads about this in the past. Hell, they cant even fix the jobs that need fixing, which is a lot higher priority.


If we're going to talk about lolstaffdd, I'm willing to bet a Plenitas Virga is able to outdamage Hvergelmir because using Shattersoul means you don't get to have AM up.on other jobs, probably, on SMN, not having myrkr for when you run low on MP would be a setback. Almost ironically, it's also arguably harder to get than a lv90 Hverg. Though it is still a bit infuriating that they would add a weapon to (essentially) a BCNM that is on par with R/M/E.

[Pebe]

alhanelem you have to read the whole thing so you don't give miss information. In Part 1.c I conclude by saying Hverglemir has a niche use that makes it good even though its a lol melee staff, no offense melee mages. Claustrum on the other hand has no use besides melee because hvergelmir takes the use of mp restoration tool which Gates of the Tartarus does so much worse at. My suggestion was to give claustrum a use besides melee and the suggestion I gave was a quick cast staff, with an aftermath that increases quick cast further.

Also since you stopped reading, if you really think the 600M end all be all blm nuking staff should be beaten by trial of the magian weapons the majority of the time then, no offense, but that is just foolish. Now i admit laevateinn does pull ahead of with aftermath already, however, mages struggle getting aftermath up in high end situations without risking death. Therefore I concluded that Laevateinn should beat the magian staffs without aftermath and aftermath is the bonus. This is the only beef I have with laevateinn besides the fact that its aftermath 3 should enhance magic instead of melee with quick cast or double damage, but meh.

If you read the final suggestions I give I make sure to keep the stats on the weapon in a similar form as their design. So changing them should just be a matter of retyping text for SE. I don't think there is any formulas they need to work, because all formulas probably work from the total of a stat you have after adding all gear. So they just add to different totals, extremely simple imo.

Oh and just to reiterate for emphasis; CLAUSTRUM HAS NO USE. In all aspects of what it tries to do it is overshadowed by other weapons. Trust me, I know, I have a Claustrum(made it for sentimental reasons :P)

[Damane]

Agree to disagree then. all of the staves have some value to somebody. They already push borders and open options. Yours are just straight mage buffs, they don't "open up options." the weapons are level 99, they're done, they're not inventing new spells for them, smn 2hour outside of 2h is ridiculous. Even if they were to revise the weapons, they'd never do anything like you're proposing.

It's really not worth even arguing about because they aren't even going to add jobs to the existing weapons, much less change their effects. There have been multi-hundred post threads about this in the past. Hell, they cant even fix the jobs that need fixing, which is a lot higher priority.

on other jobs, probably, on SMN, not having myrkr for when you run low on MP would be a setback. Almost ironically, it's also arguably harder to get than a lv90 Hverg. Though it is still a bit infuriating that they would add a weapon to (essentially) a BCNM that is on par with R/M/E.

the wapons have no fucking value to mages, because they have melee based stats and aftermaths mostly! Gees its for MAGE classes not MELEEs. hence why they are so fucking craptastic

[Demon6324236]

Well depending on what your doing, a BLM can get TP fairly easy from nukes, with 5/5 SS you can stack over 120 INT on BLM for WSing, lowering their magic def and allowing more damage, making it awesome, problem is that no matter the SS or WS, besides saving MP you did worse WSing probably than you would have just by nuking. Also before the Embrava Nerf, SCH can become a potent 2handed job when Embrava'ing, it has enough gear for a decent TP build by mage standards and the WS gear is amazing too, overall it just works well if you do it, problem is ofcourse, Embrava is being nerfed, which will destroy this fun and weird ability that SCH has.

[Alhanelem]

alhanelem you have to read the whole thing so you don't give miss information. In Part 1.c I conclude by saying Hverglemir has a niche useI covered that part. I know you said that. And I think it's totally fine for these weapons to have niche uses.


the wapons have no fucking value to mages, because they have melee based stats and aftermaths mostly! Gees its for MAGE classes not MELEEs. hence why they are so fucking craptastic If you don't like them, no one's holding a gun to your head and saying you have to get them. But there are people who do benefit from them. relic/empy staves are exceptional tools in the right hands and right circumstances- whether you're a lolmeleemage or not. Maybe you missed the part I wrote where the empy staff is great to carry around to swap in to use Myrkr with the TP temps you'd otherwise never use. The WS gives a ridiculous amount of MP back and you never even touch the mob or get on its hate list. I use it at every event with temps.

Since they're probably not adding new mythics and empy weapons for the new jobs, you can bet there will be another set of superweapons which will hopefully cater to a broader clientele. But there is no point or sense in arguing over the current ones because they will never be changed. There is almost no precedent for SE changing stats on equipment items after their release.


If you read the final suggestions I give I make sure to keep the stats on the weapon in a similar form as their design. So changing them should just be a matter of retyping text for SE.You should be aware items don't have their effects because the text on them says so- the effects have to be programmed in (if new) or called (if existing) by code somewhere. It's not a simple matter of 'retyping the text." While I would totally love for these items to have all their current attributes plus more, in SE's view it would be ridiculously overpowered (even though they in practice wouldn't really be since magic stats have little application when meleeing and DMG/delay have no effect when not meleeing)

[Pebe]

sch was an interesting meleer with their solo dark skillchains with immanence, however, we are missing the central issue here. Two out of the 3 categories of mages weapons are designated as melee weapons, and both laevateiin and tupsimati are lacking for their price tag. As we all know BLMs have a hard time keep up with melee DD now a days in game content, due to everything being a zerg. A staff such has laevateinn should bridge that gap, that should be its purpose. For instance, Ryuhigne does this for DRG and Kenkoken for pup(all though not as much as ryuhigne).

[Alhanelem]

sch was an interesting meleer with their solo dark skillchains with immanence, however, we are missing the central issue here. Two out of the 3 categories of mages weapons are designated as melee weapons, and both laevateiin and tupsimati are lacking for their price tag. As we all know BLMs have a hard time keep up with melee DD now a days in game content, due to everything being a zerg. A staff such has laevateinn should bridge that gap, that should be its purpose. For instance, Ryuhigne does this for DRG and Kenkoken for pup(all though not as much as ryuhigne). I will admit the mythic weapons in particular are a bit puzzling, just because they were specifically billed as more about enhancing abilities than being the most powerful weapons, but many of them (not just the mage weapons) kind of failed to do that very well. I am leaving the relic and emyprean weapons out of this equation as they were designed to be the strongest weapon weapons in their respective categories and little else.

[Damane]

I will admit the mythic weapons in particular are a bit puzzling, just because they were specifically billed as more about enhancing abilities than being the most powerful weapons, but many of them (not just the mage weapons) kind of failed to do that very well. I am leaving the relic and emyprean weapons out of this equation as they were designed to be the strongest weapon weapons in their respective categories and little else.

relic and empyreans are puzzling too for the mages, they make no sense.

Just imagine if Melee relics/empys would give an aftermath but for it to actually activate you need to land a debuff like slow or para on the mob via casting a spell. You would say that the weapon itself would be fuckign worthless because there would be no convenient way for you to make use of that weapon, because melees are bad considering magic stuff.

This is how mages feal about their relic/empy/mythic weapon. They have to tap into their weakest aspect of ability they have to bring the weapon to "shine": meleeing. this is a big flaw in desing imho

[Pebe]

When I said it would "be as simple as retyping text", I was using that in comparison to how easy it was, not literally. All stats I have suggested are already in the game, nothing new or groundbreaking. All they would need to do is change which values are called to be added to your character's total stats value to bee used in the formulas/equations. There isn't any really new programming going on, it would just be cut and pasting of existing code. The only perhaps interesting part would be making 2 new aftermaths of occasionally quick cast(but this would just add a value to your total quiccast, so seems easy) and occasional deals double damage(just copy the code from blm af3+2 set with a few changes).

[Demon6324236]

All they need to do is make the Relic have a high damage magic based WS with an INT mod and an aftermath for either very high MAB or level 5~6 affinity. Emp can stay how it is, a staff for extra MP while giving you a WS that restores your MP. Mythics are unique ofcourse so they should be as such, BLM should give the same MAB it does not but needs Affinity +4, this will put it above trial staves by far while still making it amazing for Meteor, with out that being its only use. Summoner's is fine how it is though it wouldn't hurt for them to add attack for your avatar as well, and perhaps some haste or something, just to make it better than just a super high-end perp staff with some MAB for your Avatar. SCH should get a massive weather bonus boost since thats the advantage of the job. Basically think of SCHs as Chatoyant, same stats as normal however has a Iridescence effect on it and +2 Affinity under the correct weather for the spell. Mythics can keep their WSs probably as idk what they are or do, but I think that would make the weapons right. 1 for melee damage, 1 for MP, and 1 for magical damage or avatar damage.

[Hashmalum]

What Claustrum needs is a quest to find its weaponskill's long-missing "u", upgrading to "Gate of Tarutarus"--when it used, a hole in space opens up and dozens of tarutarus run out and each whack the monster once before disappearing. Inevitably, one the tarus trips and falls on his face as he is charging the target, and gets up and smacks the monster slightly after the others for comedic effect. (The quest should require, among other things, that the player fetch a pair of Stumbling Sandals, thus finally giving us a use for the damn things after 10 years.) This still wouldn't make Claustrum good of course, but at least the manner in which it fails would be amusing rather than merely as pitiful as a dead kitten in a tiny clown suit.

[Byrth]

There are three ways you can approach staff relics/mythics:

1) Mage jobs have very specific roles, so lets make them better at those roles.
Example:
* Black Magic damage for BLM and SCH
* Avatar BP damage for SMN

Good-ish staff examples: Nirvana - Sorry SMNs, but a 20% increase in damage for Magic BPs isn't really that mindblowing.
Bad staff examples: Laevetienn, Tupsimati


2) Mages have roles that they're kind-of bad at, but we can use the weapon to let them excel in a situation that they otherwise would be unable to fill. This improves a job's ability to do something that they *could* do, but normally wouldn't be brought along for. With the weapon, you'd bring them along for it.

Example:
* From the past: DRK tanking with Apocalypse at 75; Excalibur DDing at 75.
* If a staff gave 50% Avatar Haste, +50% Avatar Attack, and +50 Avatar STR it would improve Avatar DPS to the point that it isn't laughable compared to a solo melee. SMN/DNC could solo Dynamis, etc.
* If a staff "Increases Drain/Aspir Potency; Reduces Drain/Aspir Recast" by tripling their potency and halving recast, it would give the job a unique role. You could do substantial darkness damage with it (1200 HP drains) and/or drain monster's MP pools so they are unable to cast.
* If a staff reduced Enmity from Black Magic by 40 (surpassing the cap) and gave considerable damage/accuracy bonuses, it would increase the viability of black magic as a damage source in melee-heavy events like Legion where you really don't want the monster to move. You could use this in some of the places where you use Anni Rangers now.
etc.

Staff examples: None


3) Mages have roles that they really bad at, but we can make a weapon so that people who enjoy playing those roles will have an ultimate weapon to look forward to. This is basically focusing on improving the worst aspect of a job so that someone with the weapon is more rounded overall.

Example:
* Meleeing on staff jobs

Staff Examples: Claustrum, Hverg




I'd like to see more Category 2s. Making something like a mythic indicates devotion to the job that's far beyond normal, so being able to use the job more often and in more roles is a suitable reward.

The obvious problem with Relic/Empyreans is that multiple jobs use staves and Category 1/2 enhancements almost have to be job specific. It is also important to avoid packaging necessary job fixes onto a difficult-to-obtain item, when re-making weapons, though. That would be a strong argument against the Avatar DPS staff.

[Alhanelem]

relic and empyreans are puzzling too for the mages, they make no sense.they're not puzzling to me. They have a specific purpose: to be the strongest WEAPON weapons of their type: All relics other than shield/horn exist purely for this purpose. There are specific useful applications for these weapons (especially the empyrean) that have already been covered. If you don't like them or have any need for those applications, then don't get the weapon, it's that simple. They completely deserve to exist for those people that do want and can make use of them. If you want to argue that MNK should be added to the staff, I wouldn't dispute that, but SE isn't going to add any jobs to any relic weapons so it would be pointless to discuss.


This is how mages feal about their relic/empy/mythic weapon. They have to tap into their weakest aspect of ability they have to bring the weapon to "shine": meleeing. this is a big flaw in desing imho It's not how I feel about my Empy. I am totally satisfied with the Empy staff. The "weaponskill" (which doesn't actually damage the enemy, nor even get you on its hate list0 is extremely useful in events. The rest of it is extremely useful for solo.

Repeated: If you don't like the weapon, just don't get it! If you do, then do get it! That simple....

Just wait for the fourth set of superweapons added to include geomancer and rune fencer.


Good-ish staff examples: Nirvana - Sorry SMNs, but a 20% increase in damage for Magic BPs isn't really that mindblowing.there aren't many things in the game at all that I would describe as "mind blowing"- however you extremely undervalue Nirvana. Name 1 other way to boost BP's damage by the same amount for all events. There isn't one. It doesn't totally change the game, but it's still a substantial buff.

[Byrth]

There aren't many things in the game at all that I would describe as "mind blowing"- however you extremely undervalue Nirvana. Name 1 other way to boost BP's damage by the same amount for all events. There isn't one. It doesn't totally change the game, but it's still a substantial buff.

Summoner is a shitty damage source. Nirvana increases magic BP damage (which you use against less-than-every target) by about 20% compared to a much-easier-to-obtain set.

* Does a 20% increase in damage make Summoner a good damage source?
No. You're still doing approximately one black magic nuke every 45 seconds.

* What does a 20% increase in magic BP damage give Summoner?
It makes Arch-Ultima and WoE fights <20% faster assuming everyone in your party has a Nirvana. If only you have a Nirvana, it doesn't save you even that much time. You're talking about 400-500mil to reduce fight times by 3% in an optimal case. I really doubt anyone is going to notice if the 1.5% you parse with your two BPs per Voidwatch fight increases to 1.8%.

* Does it matter that there are few other good ways to boost BP damage?
No, why would it? There aren't very many sources of Avatar Regen either, but that doesn't make the few 1HP/tick pieces in game useful.

* What could they have done to make it a more substantial boost?
Increases BP damage I~V, which would apply to Magic and Physical BPs. Have it scale from +10% to +35%. Due to the lack of competition for the stat (max of +26% from other sources, compared to ~+100 for MAB) you end up with a larger percentage increase. This boost still would not be "broken" because summoner would still be a crappy damage source, but at least it would be a more successful Category 1 staff.

* What is frustrating about this mindset?
You've essentially stated "Summoner has never gotten any gear that really matters, so Nirvana is awesome because it actually does something." I don't really think that we should lower the bar for SE. It's better to encourage them to make gear that actually has some impact on the Summoner job.


Also, can someone please explain to SE why MAB staves suck? I swear if I see another of them I'm going to stand at the pacific coast and throw things out to sea until I hit SE's main offices.

[Alhanelem]

Summoner is a shitty damage source. Nirvana increases magic BP damage (which you use against less-than-every target) by about 20% compared to a much-easier-to-obtain set.

* Does a 20% increase in damage make Summoner a good damage source?
No. You're still doing approximately one black magic nuke every 45 seconds.


* What does a 20% increase in magic BP damage give Summoner?
It makes Arch-Ultima and WoE fights <20% faster assuming everyone in your party has a Nirvana. If only you have a Nirvana, it doesn't save you even that much time. You're talking about 400-500mil to reduce fight times by 3% in an optimal case. I really doubt anyone is going to notice if the 1.5% you parse with your two BPs per Voidwatch fight increases to 1.8%.

* Does it matter that there are few other good ways to boost BP damage?
No, why would it? There aren't very many sources of Avatar Regen either, but that doesn't make the few 1HP/tick pieces in game useful.

* What could they have done to make it a more substantial boost?
Increases BP damage I~V, which would apply to Magic and Physical BPs. Have it scale from +10% to +35%. Due to the lack of competition for the stat (max of +26% from other sources, compared to ~+100 for MAB) you end up with a larger percentage increase. This boost still would not be "broken" because summoner would still be a crappy damage source, but at least it would be a more successful Category 1 staff.

* What is frustrating about this mindset?
You've essentially stated "Summoner has never gotten any gear that really matters, so Nirvana is awesome because it actually does something." I don't really think that we should lower the bar for SE. It's better to encourage them to make gear that actually has some impact on the Summoner job.


Also, can someone please explain to SE why MAB staves suck? I swear if I see another of them I'm going to stand at the pacific coast and throw things out to sea until I hit SE's main offices.Worthless post.

Nobody asked you if nor stated that summoner is "a good damage resource" or stated that Nirvana magically transforms you from bad to good.


* Does it matter that there are few other good ways to boost BP damage?No, why would it? There aren't very many sources of Avatar Regen either, but that doesn't make the few 1HP/tick pieces in game useful.[/QUOTE]What does avatar regen have to do with damage? Your analogy is meaningless and poor.

You can hate summoner, you can say its bad, you can even be right. but that doesn't change the fact that Nirvana is a good item FOR SUMMONER. The issues you describe are issues with job design, not issues with item design, which is what this thread is about if I'm not mistaken. you said:


You've essentially stated "Summoner has never gotten any gear that really matters, so Nirvana is awesome because it actually does something." I don't really think that we should lower the bar for SE. It's better to encourage them to make gear that actually has some impact on the Summoner job.It's not the item that's flawed. It's the job. 20% BP damage SHOULD be awesome. The issues are with the job itself.

[Pebe]

SMN is innately flawed because with the current bp- cap, it will never have the frequency of damage that melees can put out. Also, as a quick aside, FIX AVATAR MELEE DPS! THE CELESTIAL GODS MELEE STRIKES SHOULDN'T BE WEAKER THAN A FREAKIN DAGGER HIT! << this urks me so much (i'll probably make a thread about this or something soon >.>). Anyway back on topic: Alhanelem, before ryuhigne was found to be awesome, DRG was considered flawed in terms on dps with other melee. However, this one weapon ryuhugne breaks that limit on drg damage(which was placed because of the damn wyvern). So I don't see why Nirvana can't do so for smn. But I also agree that the weapon shouldn't be the job fixes, especially the avatar melee attack issue.

Anyway, Laevateiin should act like ryuhigne, because unlike smn, blm is in a good position as the strongest magic damage source in the game. They just need that extra umph in their damage like drg got from ryuhigne. Even if blms are not outparsing 99 ukkos wars and what not, as long as they are competitive its fine. We have to remember that mages have to advantage of being outside of mob "kill you all" range. With that benefit comes the sacrifice of damage, which in my opinion is perfectly fair. On that same note, smn has hateless damage, but I believe the sacrifice in strength to was too great of a compromise for this hateless damage.

[Tptn937]

Could we get some feedback on why relic/mythic/empyrean staves are so bad? Thanks for your time.

[Alhanelem]

SMN is innately flawed because with the current bp- cap, it will never have the frequency of damage that melees can put out. Also, as a quick aside, FIX AVATAR MELEE DPS! THE CELESTIAL GODS MELEE STRIKES SHOULD BE WEAKER THAN A FREAKIN DAGGER HIT!There. Someone summarized the real problems of summoner in 2 sentences.


Could we get some feedback on why relic/mythic/empyrean staves are so bad? Thanks for your time.well as I've mentioned several times already, it's not really that they're bad, its that they don't serve the purpose a lot of people want to serve. the BLM and SCH mythics kind of tried to fufill that and failed, and the SMN one half succeeded (but its usefulness is impeded by inherent flaws in the job)- the relic and empyean staves were simply built for a different purpose than most (but not all) people wanted.

If by 'feedback" you mean "answer from SE", you're not likely to get one, except "we don't really consider them to be bad" or something like that. In fact I think they did say something to that effect once before. Typical vague response (Sorry lol- the cynicism on this forum can be contagious:p )

[Demon6324236]

They are bad.

[Alhanelem]

They are bad.
No. They're only bad if you want to use them for a purpose other than which they were created for. In which case, you simply don't obtain them. Not useful to you personally != they are bad.

[Jerbob]

I own Hvergelmir and I love it to pieces. It gives me a new way to play SMN, it is a useful tool, and it looks brilliant. I have absolutely no regrets in making it, and it's my only empyrean weapon.

However, whenever I need to do something serious with my linkshell, Hvergelmir gets put away. Aside from the (admittedly useful on occasion) TP wing >> MP conversion technique, Hvergelmir offers me no benefit on anything that packs a punch. I think I have a right to be a bit irked about this - most melee jobs have few reasons to remove their relics, mythics or empyrean weapons for almost any task, whereas my use of my weapon is limited.

I understand and can appreciate that empyrean weapons are designed to be the most potent melee weapons of their type, but is that honestly practical, or indeed fair? The benefits of my Hvergelmir are undeniable, but are they comparable to empyreans for melee jobs? Absolutely not.

Of course there is the factor that magic using jobs often require a greater range of flexibility when it comes to weapons, so making any piece worth full-timing will be difficut, but SE have shown that they're willing to try with mythics - just a shame that they're clueless about any weapon that isn't designed around poking things to death. I agree that a unique and interesting way of using them would be nice as opposed to just a boring "slap on some stats" approach, but they have to be superior to other options consistently, without being difficult to use. There's also the difficulty in weapons such as the staves that are used by BLM and SMN - radically different jobs in execution if not in effect.

I think casting job weapons would benefit from being different "modes", in addition to extra bonuses. One mode would be a straight up melee weapon like we have currently, but allow auto-attacks from maximum casting range. The second mode would be a casting-specific mode that would replenish TP under certain non-melee circumstances, such as nuking with day or weather appropriate spells or converting blood pact damage to TP, but suppress melee TP gain. Giving casting jobs more ways to use a weapon will help keep it relevant in as many scenarios as possible, and ensuring that the modes are separate will prevent multiple techniques from being used simultaneously to potentially broken effect. Modes could be swapped by "using" the weapon from the inventory, essentially swapping it for the new weapon type.

Seeing as everyone else has proposed something concrete in the form of a weapon, I may as well try.

Hvergelmir [Standard]
Staff (All Races)
DMG:87 Delay:390 "Ranged Combat"
MP+80 "Myrkr"
Incl. Avatar:
Accuracy/Magic Accuracy +25
Aftermath: Magic Damage +7
Occasionally deals double damage
Increases "Blood Pact" Damage I
Suppresses Perpetuation Cost
Activate: Alters form [Spellcasting]
lv85 BLM/SMN

Hvergelmir [Spellcasting]
Staff (All Races)
DMG:87 Delay:390 Suppresses TP
MP+80 "Myrkr" "Occult Acumen III"
Copies Avatar TP to Player TP
Incl. Avatar:
Accuracy/Magic Accuracy +25
Aftermath: Magic Damage +7
Occasionally deals double damage
Increases "Blood Pact" Damage I
Suppresses Perpetuation Cost
Activate: Alters form [Standard]
lv85 BLM/SMN

Not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it illustrates the point. The standard staff is your usual for anything you'd normally be fighting, with the option to stand back if things are dangerous. The spellcasting staff is more suited to situations where being permenantly engaged, even at range, would be dangerous or ill-advised, but allows TP to be accumulated through more "magical" means. Maximising the usability of these weapons is essential in making them more equivalent to the melee versions, and one of these modes is almost always going to be appropriate.

By emphasising aftermath with powerful bonuses to relevant effects, as well as the power of the weaponskill itself, the "unique playstyle" aspect is still very much involved with the weapon so it's not just a "stick with stats". A lot of the other bonuses are simply additions to make the weapon more practical to use or replace effects that are lost from other weapons - something melee jobs don't have to worry about.

In conclusion: Casting job empyreans/relics/etc are nice for their intended purpose, but their intended purpose (as a sole purpose) is flawed. They need to have that unique "feel" and way of working while still being practical (and powerful) to use. People playing casting jobs should not need to take off their empyrean weapon when it's not practical to melee - it should be consistently useful, like melee empyrean weapons are. Finding that balance between uniqueness and usability is key and, I think, is something to focus on.

[Alhanelem]

However, whenever I need to do something serious with my linkshell, Hvergelmir gets put away. Aside from the (admittedly useful on occasion) TP wing >> MP conversion technique, Hvergelmir offers me no benefit on anything that packs a punch. I think I have a right to be a bit irked about this - most melee jobs have few reasons to remove their relics, mythics or empyrean weapons for almost any task, whereas my use of my weapon is limited.Given that summoners typical use has been perfect defense for a long time now- its pretty safe to just go ahead and use it while PD is up.

I kind of like your idea but there are no ranged weapons in the main/sub slots. knowing SE it would probably be a massive undertaking to implement (don't know just hypothesizing).

This seems more suited to a 4th set of superweapons, given SE's lack of history of buffing weapons/armor the community views as underpowered. RNF/GEO will probably not be added to the existing weapons so there will probably be a new set of top tier weapons after the new jobs come out. That's what I would leverage this thread for- sculpting what the next weapons should be rather than making a futile fight to get the current ones changed.

[Jerbob]

I suppose that is, regrettably, more realistic. Perhaps I am just being idealistic, but I feel it's worth saying something just to voice dissatisfaction rather than just leaving things unspoken, which implies acceptance. It's frustrating when there's potential for improvement, and lots of ideas from many different people, but no real understanding from the other side.

Oh well.

[Demon6324236]

Let me say at least 1 is bad then Alhanelem, the BLM Mythic.

Since it came out its been under the HQ staves so far as I know, or very slightly above if at all, in todays FFXI its worthless for all but 1 spell because Chat and ToM Staves exist, both of which are better in their own ways. BLM/SCH gets great use from Chat for the Irid effect on their spells since with /SCH and Obis you can force weathers except for Thunder. Lv99 ToM staves have a massive +35% Magic Damage thanks to Affinity, as well as their -cast time. On Laevateinn you have "Magic Atk. Bonus"+60 Enhances "Elemental Seal" effect, visually amazing, technically shitty, 60MAB does not compare to the affinity bonus, your MAB would have to be fairly low for you to have Lae win, and if thats the case, why do you have a Mythic? The Elemental Seal effect would be good and put it ahead possibly, however its on a 5min timer, and is also your only way to cast Meteor, the only real use for this staff. You said "They're only bad if you want to use them for a purpose other than which they were created for." but Meteor was no where to be found back at 75, not its reason for being made. It was made to be the ultimate nuke staff, because somewhere down the line SE figured that giving a % bonus was worse than a static # based stats. The weapon fails to do exactly what it seems to have been made for, provide you with the best nuking staff around with high damage, and a bonus to a normal JA to make your damage even higher!

Tupsimati really is no different, its supposed to be a great nuking staff that uses Weather to effect enmity so the SCH can nuke harder with less risk of taking hate, again, failed to deliver but even worse because it has no spell at all you would really use this on instead of a ToM staff.

[Alhanelem]

Let me say at least 1 is bad then Alhanelem, the BLM Mythic.For the most part I agree, but it does have 1 superniche use as the best staff for Meteor. :p

[Demon6324236]

Right but still not its original reason for being made, as Meteor didn't exist until after level 99 was released even.

[Zagen]

Right but still not its original reason for being made, as Meteor didn't exist until after level 99 was released even.
With 290 TP when using WS it would give 19 additional MAB bringing it to 39 MAB on the staff which did beat HQ staves at 75. Depended on the target but the difference was around 100 damage.

I'm not up to date on BLM sets but at 99 with 295 TP the staff gives an extra 49 MAB for a total of 109 though I don't think that is enough to beat the TOM staves.

In either case the staves are useless in most situations, even with TP generation as a mage you still have to run up and use the TP at the right time which means if a Fanatic's/Fool's Drink isn't an option you risk death in any situation besides meleeing on trash monsters.

[Byrth]

At level 75, 39 MAB may have been competitive but there were no ways for BLM to generate TP and the aftermath duration was only 3 minutes.

At level 99, 109 MAB is better than +35% damage (ignoring Abyssea where it is probably better or worse depending on your atmas).

Situations:
For Voidwatch, which is the only BLM-friendly event where you can reasonably maintain Aftermath:
50 (base with merits) +
39 (4/5 Nares set and Akasha Chaps) +
29 (Novio/Hecate's/Othlia/Stoichion/Memoria) +
25 (Acetic's Tonic) +
25 (Shrewd/Destruction)
= 168 MAB, so Laev 99 is better.
377/268 = 1.407
Laev offers Damage +40.7% and the Affinity staff offers Damage +35%.

Other factors:
* The staves being compared have the same amount of MAcc.
* MCrits weren't factored in and favor Affinity slightly.
* Other Affinity sources (like Skyblaze) favor Laev heavily.
* Nuking off your merited elements favors Laev slightly.
* Laev does not reduce spell casting time.
* You cannot swap staves with Aftermath up or you will lose the effect, so you can't switch to a useful staff for Drain/Aspir if you're using Laev. Similarly, you can't macro in MAcc staves at all or start your cast with the MDamage staff to reduce casting time.

Outside Voidwatch without Aftermath:
50 (base with merits) +
39 (4/5 Nares set and Akasha Chaps) +
29 (Novio/Hecate's/Othlia/Stoichion/Memoria)
= 118
278/218 = +27.5% damage, so Laev is worse than a completed Magian Staff.

The viability of Aftermath outside of Voidwatch:
BLMs get get 5% of their spell MP cost back as TP (1 TP / 20 MP) thanks to Occult Acumen II (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Occult_Acumen). Assuming complete efficiency (aka ignoring flooring), you would have to spend 5900 MP every 4.5 minutes to maintain aftermath outside Voidwatch without meleeing. If you factor in Conserve MP, you only need to spend 5352 MP.

5352 MP = 60 MP/tick Refresh
Refresh - 7 MP/tick
3x Ballad+5s - 21 MP/tick
Evoker's Roll - 5MP/tick
Diabolos's Favor - 5MP/tick
Dark Arts - Effectively 6 MP/tick
Refresh equipment - Difficult to calculate because you won't always be wearing it and you will be casting constantly.
Oneiros Rope - Slight hit to damage/nuke, but a substantial decrease in the amount of MP you have to spend to maintain aftermath. Down to 3820 MP after Conserve MP.
You pretty much all of the above to reach about 60MP/tick (unless using Oneiros Rope, in which case you'd need about 45MP/tick).

I suspect the problems with this kind of setup would be:
1) How do you spend that much MP in 4.5 minutes? Can you actually cast that many spells in time?
- I'd wager that with Oneiros Rope the answer to this question is "yes" but otherwise I'm leaning towards "no"
2) Can you actually get that much MP without 2-hours in time?
- Maybe in a short burst with Oneiros Rope (Activation -> 295 TP -> Activation), but probably not over a longer fight.
3) What monster in game do people want you to come to and spam high-tier nukes on while they buff you?
The latter problem carries through to Voidwatch, where people don't care about your damage.

Summary:
The downside of the staff is that you basically need huge amounts of buffs to make it viable outside Voidwatch without meleeing. The upside is that Laev is the best possible staff in the only place BLM is useful at the moment.

Edit: realized an error

[SpankWustler]

I feel ridiculous even talking about this situation, but it might be worth accounting for either Wizard's Roll (This makes Laev even more disappointing!) or Tactician's Roll (This makes Laev feel better about itself!) since a Corsair is already involved due to the necessity of a huge amount of refresh.

Also, are you planning to throw just whatever is on the beach towards the horizon or will you bring particularly weighty and aerodynamic objects with you? Given that there's already a Magic Attack Bonus staff coming down the line from the upcoming Meeble Burrows content, I think it's a safe bet that one guy is still wandering the office naked and occasionally adding inexplicable things to FFXI.

[Mirage]

No. They're only bad if you want to use them for a purpose other than which they were created for. In which case, you simply don't obtain them. Not useful to you personally != they are bad.

No, they are bad. If SE released a thf/dnc dagger with +50 elemental magic skill on, that dagger would also be bad.

[Alhanelem]

No, they are bad. If SE released a thf/dnc dagger with +50 elemental magic skill on, that dagger would also be bad.
no, it wouldn't. If it was the best dagger to use for attacking, you'd still use it reagrdless of what other stats it had on it.

If I do the most damage with my Killeverything Stick on DRG, what the hell do I care if it also happens to have Enhances Perfect Dodge on it? I got the weapon to do more damage. It does more damage, I don't care what else it does.

In any given game there are typically two kinds of weapons: Actual weapons, and stat sticks. The relics and empyreans are both Actual weapon weapons. The mythics are (or were intended to be) stat sticks more than weapons- especially for jobs less likely to use weapons as weapons. If you want a weapon, the staff relic and empyreans are as good as they get and are good weapons. Just because not many people on these jobs want weapons for that purpose doesn't make them bad- and saying "they're bad" just for the sake of trying to tell SE they're bad so they change them is a useless effort, because they're not going to change them. The only likely thing to happen is to get a new set of weapons that IS what a majority wants on these jobs. As others have come to realize, it may be a lot more worthwhile to focus on that.

[Mirage]

Now you're adding stuff to the weapon I used as an example to make it better. You're turning it around and saying "it would be good if".

Just like the mage RMEs would be good if they enhanced the main damage source of a mage. But most of them do not, and that's why they should be improved.

Actually, a better analogy would be if SE made an ultimate hand-to-hand weapon for thieves. This weapon would by far be the best h2h weapon for thief, and it would bring their damage potential with H2H up to 80% of what it would be if they used a fire path magian dagger. Is this weapon good? Yes, situationally, for killing skeletons! Should any of the current super-daggers be replaced by a weapon like this? Idkbro, you tell me.

[Pebe]

@Byrth: In order to spend that much mp on single mob, you probably capped your hate 3 times over, enmity douse only saves you once XD Also, going with your set up, the pt would be blm blm sch(or blm) rdm smn with brd and cor rotation. I'm trying to think of a situation where this combination would be useful. It could replace the RNG PT in legion if all your blms were decked out. Perhaps Arch-Ultima/Omega, arch-odin resists magic damage iirc. ADL would demolish the blms unless stuns were perfect. But then as I said before their is the hate issue, which is not a laevateinn problem but a game problem as a whole. Also, the blms have to run in range to use vidohunir, that is extremely dangerous XD. Furthermore, a 600M staff shouldn't only provide a 5% increase to magic damage.

Hey Byrth assuming Tupsimati gives the same aftermath values as alevateinn(I doubt it but maybe) could you work out similar math like you did above? I'm assuming you would see more value in magic attack on sch because they don't get their own native trait. But then again the trait they get from rdm sub is pretty potent. I think it will even out because tupsimati has less magic attack.

[Byrth]

RDM and BLM get the same potency MAB aftermath, so I'd be somewhat unsurprised to learn that SCH also gets that potency aftermath.

If this is the scholar nuking set:
Weapon/Wizzan/___/Memoria
Nares/Stoich/Hecate's/Novio
AF3+2/Nares/Icesoul/Icesoul
Taubran*/Othila/Akasha/Morri +1
*Not obtainable yet, but it will be when they release the next meeble update

In Voidwatch
+76 MAB from gear without the weapon
+24 from /RDM or /BLM.
+25 from Ascetic's Tonic
+25 from Atmacite
= 150 MAB

Using the same conditions as the BLM one above above, the Affinity staff is worth 87.5 MAB. Tupsi can give 89 MAB, so it is very slightly better in Voidwatch. (However, it has more MAcc than the damage affinity staff).
Tupsi is 0.4% better than an Affinity staff in Voidwatch (with the disclaimers above) with a perfect AM2.


Out of Voidwatch
+76 MAB from gear without the weapon
+24 from /RDM or /BLM
= 100 MAB

Tupsi would need to give 70 MAB to be better than an Affinity staff in this situation, which means it needs AM2.
Tupsi is 7% better than an Affinity Staff under these conditions with a perfect AM2.

Scholar gets back 7.5 TP per 100 MP spent, so they need to spend about 3933. However, they also get Conserve MP (I) and Dark/Light Arts. With these factors, they only need to spend 3300 MP. Similar to BLM, they could use Oneiros Rope if they wanted. This would mean they only need to spend 2600 MP. This requires about 29 MP/tick. Obviously Scholar could practically hit this threshold solo for one aftermath using pre-charged sublimation, /RDM, and Convert. To give you some idea of how much TP you get back per nuke, Thunder V would give 28.4 TP with Oneiros Rope. Fire V would give 26.1 TP. So you're looking at about 11 Tier V nukes with Oneiros Rope. Parismony won't decrease your TP return (I think), so you're free to use that too.

All the same disclaimers as above apply. You can't swap weapons, etc.


Summary
So Tupsi is barely better in Voidwatch due to the other sources of MAB, but substantially better in other situation (with AM). It's also pretty likely that you can maintain AM for it essentially solo (at least for 9 minutes) if you're clever enough.

Other Stuff
No one has tested whether Tupsi's enmity enhancement surpasses the 50% cap like Scholar AF3+2 body. If you could nuke in -90 Enmity (capped Enmity- in gear, Tupsi, and AF3+2 body), then it is probably feasible to both generate and spend enough MP to maintain aftermath even outside Voidwatch/Abyssea. Depending how you spend your strategems, you may even be able to do it without external buffs.

[Alhanelem]

Thanks byrth, that's quite insightful. :)


Actually, a better analogy would be if SE made an ultimate hand-to-hand weapon for thieves. This weapon would by far be the best h2h weapon for thief, and it would bring their damage potential with H2H up to 80% of what it would be if they used a fire path magian dagger. Is this weapon good? Yes, situationally, for killing skeletons! Should any of the current super-daggers be replaced by a weapon like this? Idkbro, you tell me.

Specifically in reference to Hrvelgmir, its usefulness goes beyond the situational benefit of doing damage with it. In combat or no, it grants you an ability to restore huge amounts of MP, and itself has a large bonus to MP (technically the WS mod). On summoner I can use this staff and use BPs like I normally would in a normal situation, and use this WS as an additional source of MP- After all, you don't need any perp- in the weapon slot at all in order to negate perpetuation cost. It can also substantially offset the cost of nukes on SCH or BLM if you're willing to sacrifice damage to nuke in it (Though I'm not sure if the MP savings is high enough to offset the amount of damage lost- e.g. if you save enough MP that you get enough extra nukes to offset the lost damage plus more- maybe byrth could work the numbers on this too?)

[Byrth]

On Scholar with Oneiros Rope, you get 9.5 TP per 100 MP you spend. Hverg linearly converts this TP into MP (based off your max MP), so there's no worry of TP overflow.

So the question is whether or not nuking in Hverg is better than an Affinity staff (the argument would be nuke frequency +35% vs. damage +35%).

10 Staffless T5s * 1.35 = 13.5 Staffless T5s
10 Staffless T5s = ~270 TP = 54% MP restore (assuming a 1600 MP build, this is 864 MP)
864 MP = about 3 more T5s

If you are limited by MP, don't care about the MAcc, don't care about the amount of time it takes to nuke, and you never want to swap to another weapon (like Arka IV), Hverg is competitive from a pure "I spent this much MP and did this much damage" standpoint. Affinity staves are better in all of the above ways and from a pure damage standpoint, though. This analysis ignores that using Oneiros Rope means you aren't using a different waist.


I used Scholar because it gets the most Occult Acumen. It is less competitive on BLM.

[Pebe]

Don't forget its regain spell adoloqium

Also icesoul #2 over strendu?

Also:
Perhaps I underestimated Laevatein's and Tupsimati's aftermath effects, when combined with their base stats. Your information on tupsimati was very insightful and that was without including adoloquim. If the 20 enmity does break the cap, then it could be useful, although I still want to point out that tupsimati offers nothing substantial to the light arts side of sch because the enmity -20 is neglible with tranquil heart imo. I never find myself in a situation where I'm even close to capping hate in light arts. And that is with accession rapture Cure IVs. Also, we talk about how we use occult acumen as our main source of tp gain, if that is the case, I still believe aftermath 3 should be adjusted with this in mind. I still think occasional deals double magic damage would be an appropriate aftermath 3.

[Tptn937]

Bump. Could we get a response on the matter before Holiday break starts?

[Alhanelem]

Bump. Could we get a response on the matter before Holiday break starts?
They're already gone. They've already responded to this topic once before though. I highly doubt you'll get one, or a different one if you do.