Avatar Perpet. Cost: Caller's Doublet vs. Summoner's Doublet vs Caller's Bracers +1

[Laume]

I did a quick search on the forums here and didn't find any articles pertaining to this so I thought I'd make a post.

The other day, I got a summoner's doublet because it was easier than a caller's doublet +1. With my current gear (and no avatar's favor), I'm somehow gaining 1 mp/tick. (My avatar perpet. gear is: evoker's ring, caller's pigaches +1, caller's pendant, caller's bracers +1 and summoner's doublet. And I have a caller's horn +1 for refresh.)
Mathematically, since caller's bracer's perpet cost is applied after all the perpet. cost - are calculated, I should have a net loss of 1 mp/tick:
base avatar perpet cost:
15
(15-1(evoker's ring)-2(caller's pigache's +1)-1(caller's pendant +weather from /sch) -3(summoner's doublet))*.5(caller's bracers +1) = 4 mp/tick
4 mp/tick -2 (auto refresh trait) -1 (caller's horn +1) = 1mp/tick

instead, I get:
[(15 -1(evoke. ring) -2(call. pigaches +1) -1(call. pendant))*.5(call. bracers)] -3(smn. doublet) = 2 mp/tick
2 mp/tick -2 (auto refresh trait) -1 (call. horn +1) = -1 mp/tick (gain of)

I'd like to confirm if that, what I'm seeing is correct, can be confirmed by another person. But also, if someone has the summoner's doublet +1 or +2, as well as the caller's bracers +1/2, if they can confirm that the HQ versions also apply the - to perpet cost after the caller's bracers.

Thanks in advance.

*note: Yes, I do realize that the caller's doublet +1/2 is better in other ways and I shouldn't always prefer avatar perpet. cost over summoning skills or other things. This thread is simply to confirm what seems to not have been documented in that Caller's bracers +1/2's perpet. cost ISN'T ALWAYS applied at the very end as we're lead to believe/documented previously.*

[Arcon]

It may simply be that the Doublet effect is applied afterwards still, as it isn't just regular perpetuation cost reduction, but conditional perpetuation cost reduction, which may be hardcoded instead of included in the existing system.

On that note, it may be worth checking out if the same holds true for the Caller's Pendant, as it's also a conditional reduction.

[Laume]

Already did on the caller's pendant. It's applied before the caller's bracers. It's part of my current avatar perpet. cost gear.

[Arcon]

Definitely odd, I'll check it out myself after Legion

[Jerbob]

I can confirm this - I've definitely experienced situations where Summoner's Doublet (-3) with Caller's Bracers +2 gives me a lower net perpetuation cost than Caller's Doublet +2 (-4) with Caller's Bracers +2. I came to the same conclusion, that the Summoner's Doublet perpetuation term must be calculated at the very end, though I don't have any maths to prove it.

[Laume]

Thanks for the confirmation Jerbob. No need to worry about the math. I can do that if need be.

Anyone with Summoner's Doublet +1 or +2 can confirm that even the HQ versions are applied at the very end?

[Teraniku]

Already did on the caller's pendant. It's applied before the caller's bracers. It's part of my current avatar perpet. cost gear.

What Staves are you using? The Trial staves also give you - perp cost for specific avatars...

[Sargent]

Anyone with Summoner's Doublet +1 or +2 can confirm that even the HQ versions are applied at the very end?

Upgraded my +1 a while back, but the +2 is not dependant on day. Also, if your looking into the *best* perpetuation set, it's actually better not to use a Perpetuation Body:
- Trial Staff (or Nirvana) - Perp-7
- Oneiros Grip - Latent:Ref+1
- Caller's Horn +2 - Ref+2
- Moonshade Earring - Ref+1
- Manasa Chausible/Marduk's Jubbah+1* - Ref+2
- Adhara Gages - Perp-2
- Evoker's Ring - Perp-1
- Nares Trews (Stearc works too) - Ref+1
- Caller's Pigaches +2 - Perp-3

Puts you at getting 6mp/tick back with another mp/tick when under 75% HP (+1 to these if you use Nirvana 99).

* Not confirmed, however widely speculated upon

[Laume]

I'm not taking staves into calculations for this. I'm not looking for the best avatar perpetuation gear. I'm just trying to find out why the relic doublet works differently and if the hq relic doublets work the same (as in if the removal of the "avatar perpetuation depending on day" by the HQ's bumps it up in the avatar perpetuation calculation).

This isn't a post about the best gear, this is simply a post about understanding how things work.

[Jerbob]

With some contributions from my linkshell (<3) I've built the doublet +2 and it looks like it follows the normal perpetuation rules instead of the unusual ones for the original, which is a shame.

Please correct me if this working doesn't make sense, but this is what I used:

15
-3 (Fay Crozier)
-3 (Summoner's Doublet +2)
-1 (Augur's Brais)
-1 (Evoker's)
-3 (Caller's Pigaches +2)
= 4mp/tick cost
*0.5 (Caller's Bracers +2)
= 2mp/tick cost
Refresh +2 (Auto-Refresh II)
Refresh +2 (Caller's Horn +2)
Refresh +1 (Moonshade Earring)
= 3mp/tick gain

15
-3 (Fay Crozier)
-1 (Augur's Brais)
-1 (Evoker's)
-3 (Caller's Pigaches +2)
= 8mp/tick cost
*0.5 (Caller's Bracers +2)
= 4mp/tick cost
-3 (Summoner's Doublet +2)
= 1mp/tick cost
Refresh +2 (Auto-Refresh II)
Refresh +2 (Caller's Horn +2)
Refresh +1 (Moonshade Earring)
= 4mp/tick gain

I experienced the former result, 3mp/tick gain, which I think demonstrates that the Summoner's Doublet +2 term is used with the rest of the perpetuation reduction effects and not at the end. Oh well.

[hideka]

I did a quick search on the forums here and didn't find any articles pertaining to this so I thought I'd make a post.

The other day, I got a summoner's doublet because it was easier than a caller's doublet +1. With my current gear (and no avatar's favor), I'm somehow gaining 1 mp/tick. (My avatar perpet. gear is: evoker's ring, caller's pigaches +1, caller's pendant, caller's bracers +1 and summoner's doublet. And I have a caller's horn +1 for refresh.)
Mathematically, since caller's bracer's perpet cost is applied after all the perpet. cost - are calculated, I should have a net loss of 1 mp/tick:
base avatar perpet cost:
15
(15-1(evoker's ring)-2(caller's pigache's +1)-1(caller's pendant +weather from /sch) -3(summoner's doublet))*.5(caller's bracers +1) = 4 mp/tick
4 mp/tick -2 (auto refresh trait) -1 (caller's horn +1) = 1mp/tick

instead, I get:
[(15 -1(evoke. ring) -2(call. pigaches +1) -1(call. pendant))*.5(call. bracers)] -3(smn. doublet) = 2 mp/tick
2 mp/tick -2 (auto refresh trait) -1 (call. horn +1) = -1 mp/tick (gain of)

I'd like to confirm if that, what I'm seeing is correct, can be confirmed by another person. But also, if someone has the summoner's doublet +1 or +2, as well as the caller's bracers +1/2, if they can confirm that the HQ versions also apply the - to perpet cost after the caller's bracers.

Thanks in advance.

*note: Yes, I do realize that the caller's doublet +1/2 is better in other ways and I shouldn't always prefer avatar perpet. cost over summoning skills or other things. This thread is simply to confirm what seems to not have been documented in that Caller's bracers +1/2's perpet. cost ISN'T ALWAYS applied at the very end as we're lead to believe/documented previously.*

noooo.....
you SHOULD have a full perp set
you should also have a -15BP delay set
you should also have a +70 or higher SMN magic skill set
you should also have an Avatar MAB set and an avatar PACC/ATK set >_>

conditional reductions are done after all other perpetuation cost reductions btw, so any "reduces perp by half" items apply after all other perp - items

[Annalise]

noooo.....
you SHOULD have a full perp set
you should also have a -15BP delay set
you should also have a +70 or higher SMN magic skill set
you should also have an Avatar MAB set and an avatar PACC/ATK set >_>

conditional reductions are done after all other perpetuation cost reductions btw, so any "reduces perp by half" items apply after all other perp - items

First, your last statement is false, as this thread show's the conditional avatar perpetuation reduction on summoner's doublet is applied after the half reduction on callers. You say that perpetuation being halved is done last, which isn't true.

Second, he's not talking about gear sets. He is simply looking at perpetuation being applied by the summoner's doublet, as it didn't give the perpetuation that was expected.

Third, read his other quote from the thread.


I'm not taking staves into calculations for this. I'm not looking for the best avatar perpetuation gear. I'm just trying to find out why the relic doublet works differently and if the hq relic doublets work the same (as in if the removal of the "avatar perpetuation depending on day" by the HQ's bumps it up in the avatar perpetuation calculation).

This isn't a post about the best gear, this is simply a post about understanding how things work.

[Pawlie]

I'm level 90 and I have

Astral Signa (-2)
Summoners Horn +2 (-3)
Summoner's Doublet +2 (-3)
Evoker's Ring (-1)

= -9 perp cost.

Its weird though because Avatars now cost 3 mp, fenrir costs 2 i believe, diabolos is free with avatars favor, carbuncles free. But sometimes the element avatrs like Ramuh would be out for free. I dont know why it randomly changes its annoying.

[Demon6324236]

Same element as the day?

[Babekeke]

I'm level 90 and I have

Astral Signa (-2)
Summoners Horn +2 (-3)
Summoner's Doublet +2 (-3)
Evoker's Ring (-1)

= -9 perp cost.

Its weird though because Avatars now cost 3 mp, fenrir costs 2 i believe, diabolos is free with avatars favor, carbuncles free. But sometimes the element avatrs like Ramuh would be out for free. I dont know why it randomly changes its annoying.

Avatar's Favour is active?