Is anyone particularly happy with the new gear from New Salvage?

[ManaKing]

My RDM is pretty disappointed. My BST is pretty happy, but my BST is always happy.

I haven't seen a lot of nice things said about the new Ares or it's variant. I don't see anything I'd want on my DRG....or any job really.

I find myself underwhelmed. The gear could be in anticipation of new WS adjustments, but I don't like giving credit where credit isn't due. If NNI was really the top end gear, then why didn't SE take better care to keep it from cheaters? Or even release it before everything else that they are revamping?

Please like if you also feel like the assortment of gear, on average, is a let down.

(I don't like to complain, but I also don't like the idea that this game becomes more boring and uninteresting than it has already become. The likelihood that they will adjust gear later is almost 100% guaranteed to be none and honestly complaining now probably won't mean anything either, but I might as well try.)

[Kincard]

Based on the current info, the stats on the alternate set make a lot of sense because they're relatively easy to obtain:

New Head: LV45 Head + 10 Plans + 15 Mythril
New Body: LV45 Body + 12 Plans + 15 Mythril
New Hands: LV45 Hands + 12 Plans + 15 Mythril
New Legs: LV45 Legs + 12 Plans + 15 Mythril
New Feet: LV45 Feet + 10 Plans + 15 Mythril

Even in a pretty casual trio group, you could get everything you need for one of those pieces in about 2 weeks, without the insane RNG rolling that NNI has.

However, I have to express my bewilderment at the quality of the +1 gear considering the stuff you need to get that:

Old+1 Head: LV45 Head + 40 Plans + 15 Gold Pieces
Old+1 Body: LV45 Body + 50 Plans + 15 Gold Pieces
Old+1 Hands: LV45 Hands + 45 Plans + 15 Gold Pieces
Old +1 Legs: LV45 Hands + 45 Plans + 15 Gold Pieces
Old +1 Feet: : LV45 Feet + 40 Plans + 15 Gold Pieces

For a single piece, I'm doing something like a month of neo salvage runs every day, spending 300k on gold coins, and then have to trade in my old item in addition to that. Some of the upgrades (Usukane Sune-Ate +1) are quite good, while some are almost totally pointless (Skadi's Jambeaux +1). Unless there's some kind of augment system that hasn't been discovered yet these pieces are pretty lackluster for the amount of effort they require to obtain. Keep in mind, you're sacrificing doing a normal salvage run in favor of doing neo salvage, so you're technically losing out on hundreds of thousands of gil with every single run.

This post contains special thanks to Sylow, who brought you the shiny new salvage information

[Return1]

Most of the gear is trash when you consider it's mostly side grades or inferior to other gear that already exists.

[Monchat]

I didn't expect much out of salvage gear, but I expected full usukane +1 to beat full tantra +2 at the very least. And it's much inferior. What the hell? To the DEV, why bother make set bonus if full sets are bad. Only 2-3 situational pieces for monk at the first look, that im not even sure improve my damage. I did 2 salvage runs and it's too easy to my liking (kill stuff > NM pops> kill it, NMs present no chalenge), nothing like the good old elaborate strategies and overall run planning of salvage V1. Yeah they managed to fuck up salvage update lol.

[SpankWustler]

The event seems much easier than old-school salvage was at 75. So, I'm not surprised that the new Salvage equipment doesn't trample its contemporaries the way some Salvage equipment did at 75.

The "alternative" set is very reasonable to make given the bonuses on it. To make the equally decent +1'ed old items, you just need the old items and...

...and...

. . . uh . . . oh . . .


Old+1 Head: LV45 Head + 40 Plans + 15 Gold Pieces
Old+1 Body: LV45 Body + 50 Plans + 15 Gold Pieces
Old+1 Hands: LV45 Hands + 45 Plans + 15 Gold Pieces
Old +1 Legs: LV45 Hands + 45 Plans + 15 Gold Pieces
Old +1 Feet: : LV45 Feet + 40 Plans + 15 Gold Pieces

http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/rage-mega-rage-l.png

[Alhanelem]

Keep in mind, you're sacrificing doing a normal salvage run in favor of doing neo salvage, so you're technically losing out on hundreds of thousands of gil with every single run.No alexandrite in the new runs?

[Arcon]

No alexandrite in the new runs?

From the (very limited) reports I've heard so far, there is about the same amount per run as it was in the past. Only you can solo old Salvage, whereas you have to have several people to do new Salvage with, so you have to split with more people and get less in the end.

[Raksha]

I wish the gear sucked a little more so I wouldnt have to bother with it at all.

[Antanias]

I'm better off trying for a Hexed Jacket -1 from the looks of things :(

[Demon6324236]

I wouldn't go that far. Really its money vs time.

[Kincard]

I would. When you consider the amount of runs you need to complete a body piece, you could've spend that time making gil off normal salvage or whatever and go towards hexed-1 stuff instead, which is some of the best stuff in the game, as opposed to these which only have a few that even count as marginal upgrades.

I didn't expect another NNI but I don't think it's unreasonable to have at least expected this stuff to be better than AF3 gear. :/

[Demon6324236]

Idk how you get plans honestly, so I cant say for sure either way.

[Kincard]

At the moment it's looking like if you choose your path correctly, you can get like 4-8 of a specific type of plan every run. The problem, of course, is that you'd have to have all these plans going to a single person, and it'd still take you like 2 weeks to finish.

[Return1]

The part that annoys me the most is that they were so close to making the event worthwhile. I bit of Store TP here, more MAB there, not removing the relevant stat here, and more MND there and suddenly the sets have amazing pieces everyone wants.

[detlef]

I share this sentiment. Neo-Salvage, it could be worse. But as it is, I was expecting something better. Not a million times better, and I wasn't expecting to have the same reaction as when I saw Neo-Nyzul gear. I did expect more pieces that would be more useful than what SE gave us. A few more pieces that are really exceptional, that people would see and not be able to talk themselves out of doing Salvage.

I had high hopes for Salvage. After all, it was the crown jewel of level 75 events. Something that truly lived up to Matsui's vision: Exceptional players could fully clear it every time while lesser players would have to pick and choose what could be done (but still progress over time at a slower pace). It was the last pre-SoA endgame event to look forward to, and I really was hoping that SE would get it right. There's still time, and maybe there are Salvage elements that haven't been figured out yet.

But what's up with the upgrade system? Seriously, 40-50 plans? For that effort I would have expected better gear.

[Monchat]

for MNK, each usukane +1 piece only had to be 2~3% better than the old version for the full set to be good. The lolz. Why is each piece not 2% better when there is 25 level difference?

[Dohati]

i really don't get this thread <.< i don't care about most of the gear but one of the only things i'm hearing mentioned specifically is usukane+1. i still use all the usu pieces on pup at some point or another. the hat, body, and hands are good eva gear, the legs are decent smite gear, and the feet are good TP gear. maybe not the best gear as a set, but each piece is now one of the best pieces for everything i was already using it for. as opposed to being able to just compare w/ other pieces, it's now easily the best for all those things. incoming comments spawned out of the ffxi forums' inability to rate-down posts.

[Demon6324236]

Each job get some minor pieces, some jobs get a few stand out pieces, but almost no job gets a truly amazing piece.

[Merton9999]

I wish the gear sucked a little more so I wouldnt have to bother with it at all.

This is exactly what I was thinking before I scrolled down and read my mind in our post. +1

[Camate]

Happy Friday!

I’d like to comment a bit on the high-level Salvage content based on everyone’s feedback thus far since the version update took place. While it might not address the current topic of equipment rewards, I feel it gives a bit more insight into the content. However, we will be sure to pass along the equipment related feedback to the development team right away!

With the recent high-level Salvage expansion we wanted to make it possible so that players with less experience could aim to clear the content without getting stuck on certain aspects.

Based on this objective, we balanced the content in such a way so that a party of roughly 6 players can clear it, and made it possible so that with the right amount of battle power you would be able to clear it comparatively faster. (It seems like there are already quite a few players who have managed to clear the content with less than 6 party members. Good job! )

For those of you who are well versed with the original Salvage content, you might be feeling that this content is a bit easy.

As a method of fostering skillful play for our veteran players, we’ve set up the content so that special routes can be taken to obtain more items more efficiently and made it so you can feel your achievements even more from spending time and heavily challenging the same routes.

For example, depending on your objective – if you are selecting a route to go after the equipment that you want of if you are selecting a route that will yield a great deal of alexandrite – your battle strategy will change.

With that said, we’d love it if you can fervently seek out these elements and take on the challenge, and let us know what you think.

[SpankWustler]

Camate, some deep and dark part of you had to be snickering and nudging you onward when you were choosing where to post that. Truly, I commend your choice.

[detlef]

Quite a bit of alexandrite would have to drop in order to be competitive with old Salvage.

[Cowardlybabooon]

I love the explanation. It really is nice to understand the thought behind stuff. I haven't tried it yet but I'm looking forward to it.

[Camiie]

I was hoping that Neo-Salvage would be sort of an intermediary step between Aby/Dyna/VW and NNI/Legion. Obviously that isn't the case. There are a handful of pieces I'd like to try for, but nothing that's going to push me substantially forward. Once I get those few pieces, I still don't think I'll be any closer to being competitive in the highest of the high-end events.

[Vivivivi]

I have only tried out the new salvage once so far, but initial impressions are that I absolutely love it! It still feels like salvage but without the hassle of passing/lotting cells, and seems to be the right amount of difficulty at level 99- challenging but not so challenging it's not fun. Our first run was with 4 people and we fared okay, didn't quite clear it, but made it very far.

Looking forward to participating many more times. Thanks to the dev team for breathing more life into one of the mostfun events in the gam e:D

[Insaniac]

I'm wondering what a "great deal of alexandrite" is. You need about 4 people for Neo-Salvage and can solo the original. In my SSR runs my alex hauls average out to around 110 per run. For me to do Neo salvage for alex a "great deal" needs to be much higher than 400. I say much higher since you need to organize a group and actually pay attention instead of 1 shotting a bunch of trash level mobs.

[Afania]

Each job get some minor pieces, some jobs get a few stand out pieces, but almost no job gets a truly amazing piece.

Leave truly amazing/epic piece to hex HQ augment items and rich endgame players then. I'm fine with stand out pieces and easier to get.

[saevel]

Quite a bit of alexandrite would have to drop in order to be competitive with old Salvage.

Every zone has a guaranteed linen purse if you kill the HQ megaboss. To kill the HQ you must first pop / defeat the NQ which has a chance of dropping a linen coinpurse. Also the way the zones are laid out, once you know which unlocks to get quickly you can spend lots of time farming gears to get more alex, just bring a THF.

As for the gear ... it's situational. What SE did was try to make pieces that were good for a variety of jobs simultaneously, which rarely works as many jobs / abilities need different pieces. Morigans is pretty bad for RDM but amazing for BLU as a Req / Sang set, that kind of stuff. Ares's has a few good pieces for Upheavel and maybe a few other WS, but nothing that really stands out for Res / Ukon spam or SD spam.

[Mayoyama]

You merely have to look at a couple of the 20+ page thread on FFXIAH.com about this gear to see how unhappy most people are lol

[Insaniac]

The linen purse from the HQ is not 100%.

Edit: Actually maybe they are? I thought I read a report of someone not getting one but now I can't find it. Either way 1 100% linen is not good enough for a small group of people.

[Yenecol]

As painful as level 75 salvage could be due to drop rates and randomness of what dropped, it was nonetheless the premier event for getting some of the best gear around. My proudest moment in my entire FFXI career was leading a group through Zhayolm to finish skadi gloves.

That was August 2010 if I recall... and very soon after abyssea hit and skadi gloves became obsolete. I have been dreaming of this day that those gloves would become useful once again. Fortunately in that time, I have come to love beastmaster and I am extremely happy with skadi gloves+1. I am incredibly excited to get these.

However... I have found it difficult to find people to do salvage because a lot of the gear does fall short of people's expectations. I know I am seriously disappointed with skadi legs +1. You took away haste 2 just to add one paltry additional store tp?! Ludicrous! I was hoping to see something like store tp+14. For me the most important stat of those legs was the store tp+7 and that's what I wanted to see go up - way up. As it stands, you took away haste 2 and the store tp still doesn't beat sylvan brague +2 at store tp 9. Far as the skadi legs go, you break my heart SE! Those legs are NOT worth the effort and I so wanted them upgraded! They look good, I like wearing them! If you can, FIX THEM!!!!

Salvage gear should beat Nyzul. Like I said before, it was the premier event at 75 and now that it just came back out, it should be the best and it is not. Salvage needs more respect - it should not be just a time-killer to "cure cabin fever" while waiting for the next expansion. If you cannot fix the current +1, promise us a way to get them to +2 in the future. I want this gear to be useful even after Seekers of Adoulin comes out and many people believe that is not going to be the case.

[Kincard]

I think asking this stuff to be better than NNI stuff is way too much considering how easy the event is. It's a really leisurely event compared to 75 salvage and NNI. I understand where they were coming from, trying to fill a gap between Abyssea/VW and NNI/Legion and this seems to fit that pretty well. Problem is that a lot of the gear isn't even as good as AF3+2 in a lot of cases.

Skadi's Legs +1 actually have a translation error as I understand it. They actually do have haste+6%. In that light, Skadi +1 actually came out alright overall, I think.

And Skadi Hands? lol
Try being one of the people that spent months farming to get 12x Imperial Wootz when the were like 10M each, back when 10M was a LOT of freaking gil. >_>

[Yenecol]

I think asking this stuff to be better than NNI stuff is way too much considering how easy the event is. It's a really leisurely event compared to 75 salvage and NNI. I understand where they were coming from, trying to fill a gap between Abyssea/VW and NNI/Legion and this seems to fit that pretty well. Problem is that a lot of the gear isn't even as good as AF3+2 in a lot of cases.

Yes, salvage is easy - too easy! I understand the need for more casual content but salvage does not deserve to be casual content. Salvage is supposed to be for a small group of elite players. I feel nyzul isle and salvage switched places. NNI should be the easy casual event and salvage should be the event with zomg-must-have gear with a level of challenge that gives you a sense of pride. I asked someone to do salvage with me and he said he had NNI. Nyzul having more importance than Salvage just does not seem right to me... maybe I am living in the past?

[Demon6324236]

maybe I am living in the past?You are, and somewhat I disagree. Thanks to Alexandrites coming from Salvage they have to make it the more casual event so more people do it, less people doing it means less around to use for Mythics, and thats a problem they said they wanted to change, because the number of Mythics are so low by compare. The gear needs improved, but the fact its a more casual event is a good thing for Mythics, if nothing else.

[saevel]

You are, and somewhat I disagree. Thanks to Alexandrites coming from Salvage they have to make it the more casual event so more people do it, less people doing it means less around to use for Mythics, and thats a problem they said they wanted to change, because the number of Mythics are so low by compare. The gear needs improved, but the fact its a more casual event is a good thing for Mythics, if nothing else.

The gear from Neo Salvage is pretty decent / good (not all pieces are for all the jobs on them) once you discount NNI and some of the mega HQ / augmented stuff. It's middle ground gear basically, just like some of the AU / AO pieces were.

[Alhanelem]

From a gameplay perspective, the original salvage was probably the best event ever added to the game. I enjoyed it a lot more than dynamis.

[Yenecol]

From a gameplay perspective, the original salvage was probably the best event ever added to the game. I enjoyed it a lot more than dynamis.I agree but they kept something from the old salvage that I wish they DID get rid of - the ability for someone to exit the entire group from the final floor. I just beat Arrapago remnants II and my wish came true - an Idi's mask dropped. I was so excited! And then, the last guy... the last guy did NOT pass and exited the entire group out of the area. No one got Idi's mask. My night ended with me in a murderous rage. Please fix it so at the end, people can only exit themselves!

[Kincard]

Why would you even bother using those teleports when everyone is given a set of fireflies, anyway?

[Yenecol]

Why would you even bother using those teleports when everyone is given a set of fireflies, anyway?ExactlY! For that reason, I started a thread specifically asking the devs to remove that stupid teleport!

[Camiie]

I agree but they kept something from the old salvage that I wish they DID get rid of - the ability for someone to exit the entire group from the final floor. I just beat Arrapago remnants II and my wish came true - an Idi's mask dropped. I was so excited! And then, the last guy... the last guy did NOT pass and exited the entire group out of the area. No one got Idi's mask. My night ended with me in a murderous rage. Please fix it so at the end, people can only exit themselves!

Sometimes I think they set this sort of thing up on purpose just so some poor soul will be cheated out of a piece and have to go back for it (probably multiple times). Either that or they just don't know what the hell they're doing.

[Arcon]

Why would you even bother using those teleports when everyone is given a set of fireflies, anyway?

Wasn't that how you got the win during old Salvage? I thought just killing the boss itself wasn't enough.

[Caketime]

Sometimes I think they set this sort of thing up on purpose just so some poor soul will be cheated out of a piece and have to go back for it (probably multiple times). Either that or they just don't know what the hell they're doing.

It's got to be on purpose, given that these sorts of shenanigans have the potential to happen during most events in some form or another. Being completely screwed by asshattery is part of the play experience.

[Kincard]

Wasn't that how you got the win during old Salvage? I thought just killing the boss itself wasn't enough.

Nope, I'm pretty sure to this day there are teleports down at the bottom of those areas that remain unused for me. You get the title (and thus the "win" in any relevant sense of the term, IE mythic quest) just by killing the boss chairot. Why walk all the way to the side room to exit if I can just use my fireflies or get a warp II?

[tyrantsyn]

I'm on the fence with the gear, need to go back and build the original piece's to get anything I'd benefit from. That's a bit of a tall order seeing that most of the guy's I'm running with don't need too.

The new set up I love. Thank god the horrible cell's are gone.

[Antanias]

Haven't tried the old salvage since the update, does it use the cell system still? (If it does, can it be converted to the non-cell system?)

[Yenecol]

Haven't tried the old salvage since the update, does it use the cell system still? (If it does, can it be converted to the non-cell system?)No cells. The new salvage is a lot of fun but there is the problem of NO INTEREST. I find it really hard to make groups. Most people still want to do NNI since salvage is work without the gear being vastly superior like it should be. Not only that, but I just realized that once you run out of assault points, you would need to use tags to get more and NNI uses tags too. I think NNI should have its own tag system separate from the tags you need to assault. People shouldn't have to pick between NNI and Salvage because the way things are right now, NNI will win every time. :(

[Arcon]

No cells.

He was talking about old Salvage, and old Salvage still does use cells.

[Schrute]

Really missed the ball on this one. NNI fun and great gear. This could have been awesome and breathed more life back into this game but the rewards are just, yuck. few pieces in every set that looks good, and the rest is just meh. All they had to do was make the gear on par with NNI gear and then let us pick our poison. I was huge on salvage back in the day, just because the gear was amazing back then, gave me something to shoot for. After having 15/15 NNI gear and still helping other people when I get the chance, starting to get bored.

Hopefully when seekers of aduline comes out they will have fixed the enmity system, other jobs, and maybe, just maybe release some gear that would steal my heart once more O-O

[Taint2]

The gear in general is pretty lack luster. But so was the original Salvage gear. There are definitely some must have pieces like Usu Feet for a SAM or Usu Head for a MNK.

The nice thing is a good 4 man unit can plow through most zones in an hour and complete atleast one +1 item a week.

[tyrantsyn]

He was talking about old Salvage, and old Salvage still does use cells.
Uggh, that's horrible. I hope they change it.

[Camate]

Greetings!

Below is a message from Producer Akihiko Matsui about adjustments to the old Salvage content.



I spoke to the Salvage lead about the plans for future adjustments.

As a result of our discussion, since we have implemented the higher-tier Salvage expansion, we decided to increase the drop rates on equipment that could be obtained in the previous salvage areas.

Also, in addition to the above adjustment, we will be making changes to the Bhaflau Remnants so that equipment will not drop only from the NMs that Reactionary Ramparts spawn, but the regular monsters it spawns as well.

Due to the fact that increasing the NM spawn rate would affect the yield of Alexandrite, we will be keeping cotton purses and higher equipment drops rates as special bonuses for defeating the NM, but will be implementing these changes with the objective of increasing the chances to obtain equipment.

[Xilk]

I"ve not seen the Bee NM spawn in the last 12 times I've run Bhaflau remnants. Is there a special condition aside from letting the rampart spawn as many bees as possible?

Otherwise some of the gear options are really great.

I wasn't expecting a NNI -like revolution which made everything that came before obsolete.

[Aarahs]

Awesome! Bhaflau's has been my mortal enemy for 35 drops. Is this something we could reasonably expect in the next update?

I'm aware of how priorities can shift with time, would it be possible to perhaps give a monthly "status" report on progressing upgrades? Maybe percentage of completion on each item so you're not promising deadlines, but still letting us get an idea of delivery? Kind of like the Cait Sith video.

[Arcon]

Below is a message from Producer Akihiko Matsui about adjustments to the old Salvage content.


[..] since we have implemented the higher-tier Salvage expansion, we decided to increase the drop rates on equipment that could be obtained in the previous salvage areas.

Just to clarify, since the wording is a bit ambiguous, did you already increase the drop rate or did you just decide on it and will do it in a future update?

[Vivivivi]

THANK YOU :D

[Cowardlybabooon]

Great idea. I agree with the OP on this that not all of the pieces of gear are the best in the game, but why would we want to put our NNI gear to rest so quickly anyways? There are a few pieces in the new salvage gear that would have uses for sure, and I am very happy to hear that the NQ gear is going to be easier to get.

[Alhanelem]

honestly, citadel chenolian has been my mortal enemy since salvage came out. Still 14/15 usu pieces....

[Creelo]

Hopefully they adjust the amount of 25 pieces that drop from the Mega Bosses as well.

Seriously, we've been targeting AR for a while now to finish off my friend's Skadi pants yet it has been AGES since we've seen a pair of 25 Skadi legs drop (he wasn't there for the previous pair long ago).

Perhaps make the Mega Boss drop 3-4 25 pieces instead to help groups out with this problem? :/

Although if anything then, we'll just be seeing 3-4 Ea's Doublets drop instead of the usual 2 lol

[Afania]

No cells. The new salvage is a lot of fun but there is the problem of NO INTEREST. I find it really hard to make groups. Most people still want to do NNI since salvage is work without the gear being vastly superior like it should be.

You have to find ppl with 15/15 NNI gear or completely hate NNI to do it. You only need 3~4 ppl for new salvage, so it's not zomg hard to make pt compare with those needing a static(such as meeble, legion etc)

[Metaking]

would t say hate nni in fact i know a few people who only have a few pieces(nni) still doing salvage 2 and i know a handfull of groups doing it (myself being in one) there are a decent number of really good pieces in there, just not generally in the most direct sense (like a thf with a last stand set up)

[Alhanelem]

So despite the level 96 requirement, new slavage is easier than the old slavage was at 75?

edit OMG 4000th post :D

[Taint2]

So despite the level 96 requirement, new slavage is easier than the old slavage was at 75?

edit OMG 4000th post :D



Easier isn't the best word, since 75cap Salvage was pretty damn easy for a good group.

It is definitely a fast event however with way less retarded gimics. There are no gear trains, random BR ramparts. I personally like it, most of our runs are an hour and we always get stuff done. The +1 requirements are a bit high IMO, we are about to finish our first piece but its pretty much 5-8 runs per piece, which over the course of a SP is a ton of repeat.

[detlef]

It's a little easier, but a better way to describe it is less complicated.

[Demon6324236]

The way to get the gear makes no sense. You want a piece of gear? Take some plans to a person, now heres the deal, if you want a brand new piece, only need 12ish plans and a piece of gear for him to work on, thats fair. On the other hand, if you wanna upgrade a piece you already got? Psh~ 40 plans. Why is it that when I give him more preexisting gear, he needs more plans? Sounds to me like if you have someone give you something with alot of work on it already done you could finish it alot easier, much more so than starting from scratch at least...

[saevel]

The way to get the gear makes no sense. You want a piece of gear? Take some plans to a person, now heres the deal, if you want a brand new piece, only need 12ish plans and a piece of gear for him to work on, thats fair. On the other hand, if you wanna upgrade a piece you already got? Psh~ 40 plans. Why is it that when I give him more preexisting gear, he needs more plans? Sounds to me like if you have someone give you something with alot of work on it already done you could finish it alot easier, much more so than starting from scratch at least...

Because your upgrading the old salvage gear, the "new" gear doesn't have set bonus and tends to have less stats overall, though it may have more relevant stats.

The event isn't so much "easier" as each and every run your going to walk away with ~something~. It's far less random then old salvage where you could go a long time before seeing your NM (Phedro oh how I hate you). It's a bit more "grindy" in that you can't get lucky and get three pieces in a week and walk away with an upgrade.

[Demon6324236]

I just meant number wise. Give them an already finished product that just needs upgrading and they need more blueprints telling them how, but tell them to build it for you from the ground up and they need only like 10 and their fine. Just makes little sense from that perspective, regardless of stats, wouldn't the fact you have half your work done, or something similar to the end design, make it easier to make anyways without having all of these extra plans? Especially if you can build one from the ground up with fewer, seems insane you would need 4 times as many for something like that.

[svengalis]

I didn't expect much out of salvage gear, but I expected full usukane +1 to beat full tantra +2 at the very least. And it's much inferior. What the hell? To the DEV, why bother make set bonus if full sets are bad. Only 2-3 situational pieces for monk at the first look, that im not even sure improve my damage. I did 2 salvage runs and it's too easy to my liking (kill stuff > NM pops> kill it, NMs present no chalenge), nothing like the good old elaborate strategies and overall run planning of salvage V1. Yeah they managed to fuck up salvage update lol.

I said this once and I will say it again. Abyssea was a blessing and a curse. They made the gear so good it will be really hard for them to top it without making new gear game breaking.

[Taint2]

Ejiin tested that the +1 gear set bonus works with 2 pieces. (and probably increases as you add more)


3% haste bonus was given for Usu body and feet.

[Chocobits]

Why did they remove original stats from the old pieces.. in many cases that's wasted time and gil for a downgrade..

I can't think of any other +1 sets that had their original stats removed..? Usually the original stats stay the same or receive a bonus.. probably been mentioned a dozen times already. Didn't read thread. Saying again for complaint counter.

[detlef]

Stats were removed or changed as early as AF+1. Do a comparison between AF and AF+1, you'll see a lot of things were added or removed. Although off the top of my head I can't think of an instance where the "important stats" were replaced.

Aside from that, if you were referring to Skadi legs, I believe it was a localization error.

[Kincard]

Both the Skadi Legs and the Morrigan Robe have localization errors, yeah. They both increased haste and attack from the NQ, respectively. I don't think any other pieces lost stats so none of the items lost stats as far as I know.

[Chocobits]

Both the Skadi Legs and the Morrigan Robe have localization errors, yeah. They both increased haste and attack from the NQ, respectively. I don't think any other pieces lost stats so none of the items lost stats as far as I know.

Ahh. Good to know. Silly me, trusting printed stats.

[Yenecol]

Both the Skadi Legs and the Morrigan Robe have localization errors, yeah. They both increased haste and attack from the NQ, respectively. I don't think any other pieces lost stats so none of the items lost stats as far as I know.So, are they going to fix the descriptions? Or are they happy because they know that we know what the stats are supposed to be? :P

[Demon6324236]

They fill fix them in the upcoming update I'm sure.

[Zhronne]

I don't think any other pieces lost stats so none of the items lost stats as far as I know.
Marduk+1 lost the HP/MP+x%, as far as I know. Made me a sad galka.

[Byrth]

I'm kind of happy with the Skadi set. I have a reason to get every single piece for DNC.

Ares +1... there are maybe one or two pieces that I want. This set kind of got stiffed, but some of those jobs are viewed as "overpowered" so perhaps this is just an indirect job adjustment.

Morrigan +1 is okay, though the magic damage version update will put a damper on its awesomeness and make feet/body really the only good pieces (I think).

Marduk +1 is very solid.

Usu +1 has some nice pieces, but the set bonus is less useful than it used to be because Haste is so readily available these days (especially for Monk).


Of the secondary Armor sets, I have mostly looked at Sigyn and Ker's. Of those, Sigyn Hands are pretty solid for /ra on THF or COR and Sigyn feet are solid TP feet for Thief. Otherwise the sets are kind of useless as far as I can see.

[saevel]

I'm kind of happy with the Skadi set. I have a reason to get every single piece for DNC.

Ares +1... there are maybe one or two pieces that I want. This set kind of got stiffed, but some of those jobs are viewed as "overpowered" so perhaps this is just an indirect job adjustment.

Morrigan +1 is okay, though the magic damage version update will put a damper on its awesomeness and make feet/body really the only good pieces (I think).

Marduk +1 is very solid.

Usu +1 has some nice pieces, but the set bonus is less useful than it used to be because Haste is so readily available these days (especially for Monk).


Of the secondary Armor sets, I have mostly looked at Sigyn and Ker's. Of those, Sigyn Hands are pretty solid for /ra on THF or COR and Sigyn feet are solid TP feet for Thief. Otherwise the sets are kind of useless as far as I can see.

Ares +1, I'd look at the hands for WAR, the Body / Legs also look interesting.

Morrigans +1 is mostly for RDM KoTR / Req or BLU Req / S.Blade spam. Nares beats it for nuking. Thought there could be an argument for using it for enfeebles as it's concentration of INT / MND / M.Acc would save some inventory space.

The only Usu +1 that really stood out for me was the head + feet combo, could do interesting things for sTP builds.

On the off items, Ker's body seems like a substitute for those who can't get a HQ Adaberk, if only it was Store TP instead of Subtle Blow. Nabu's body seems a bow to the Winjas while the legs are an interesting part for those who like epic swapping.

Mostly the sets suffer from SE trying to make them do "everything" for every job. Instead of each piece being epic at something (like NNI gear), each piece is merely good at many things.

[Economizer]

Nabu's body seems a bow to the Winjas

Nabu's Jubbah actually hurts melee White Mages that are offhanding a multihitter. Since White Mage doesn't get Dual Wield, Double Attack, or Temper, it doesn't really have enough Double Attack to make stacking it instead of offhanding a multihitter (OAT2-4, or Kraken Club). Double Attack is also useless for WS since Realmrazer is better then Hexa Strike (despite SE's nerfs), and already hits the 8 hit cap.

While I will credit this piece with being relatively easy to obtain, a White Mage would be better off TPing in a Shedir Manteel for the accuracy while maintaining body haste, and although this piece would also make an okay WS piece, someone will eventually find out where the Sublime Breastplate comes from, and in the meantime, there are decent alternatives that don't eat a slot.

Part of multi-job sets like these tends to be having gear that is great for some other job, but still sidegrade for another (one example that comes to mind is Nabu's Dastanas vs. Healer's Mitts +1, but I guess we still have to pester SE for AF1+2 for a proper upgrade). Gear that has WHM/SMN/BRD on it tends to be especially bad in this regard, but the Salvage II gear isn't as bad as previous sets.

Considering that Salvage II gear is supposed to be more casual then most other 99 gear these days, the gear rewards from it are understandable at least.

[Kincard]

The only Usu +1 that really stood out for me was the head + feet combo, could do interesting things for sTP builds.

Usukane +1 is useful in every slot for lolNIN. The Head/Body/Hands are great for evasion sets, while the legs + feet (and sometimes the head) is the best for TP sets thanks to the set bonus. At first glance the Usukane +1 looked really side gradey, but the set bonus really saved it. I imagine a MNK and PUP can have similar uses for all of it because of their high base evasion as well.

The secondary items certainly do look very lackluster by comparison after considering the set bonus now. Omodaka Gote are a decent hybrid haste/evasion hands (also accuracy choice for SAMs etc) without spending 50M for a pair of Tenryu. I think the Omodaka Feet were good for Kaiten/Fudo/Shoha.


someone will eventually find out where the Sublime Breastplate

It's very, very likely it's coming from the Burrows missions they postponed (it will come along in a few weeks if I'm not mistaken), along with a bunch of other non-salvage items that were added this patch, like the Uguisu.

[saevel]

Nabu's Jubbah actually hurts melee White Mages that are offhanding a multihitter. Since White Mage doesn't get Dual Wield, Double Attack, or Temper, it doesn't really have enough Double Attack to make stacking it instead of offhanding a multihitter (OAT2-4, or Kraken Club). Double Attack is also useless for WS since Realmrazer is better then Hexa Strike (despite SE's nerfs), and already hits the 8 hit cap.

While I will credit this piece with being relatively easy to obtain, a White Mage would be better off TPing in a Shedir Manteel for the accuracy while maintaining body haste, and although this piece would also make an okay WS piece, someone will eventually find out where the Sublime Breastplate comes from, and in the meantime, there are decent alternatives that don't eat a slot.

Part of multi-job sets like these tends to be having gear that is great for some other job, but still sidegrade for another (one example that comes to mind is Nabu's Dastanas vs. Healer's Mitts +1, but I guess we still have to pester SE for AF1+2 for a proper upgrade). Gear that has WHM/SMN/BRD on it tends to be especially bad in this regard, but the Salvage II gear isn't as bad as previous sets.

Considering that Salvage II gear is supposed to be more casual then most other 99 gear these days, the gear rewards from it are understandable at least.

Umm why on earth are you using a multi-hitter off hand. If your going to Winja and use a magian weapon then it should be a STR club, or failling that a PDT club (less healing = more swinging). The multi-hitters just feed more TP and deal no additional damage.

[Caketime]

Umm why on earth are you using a multi-hitter off hand. If your going to Winja and use a magian weapon then it should be a STR club, or failling that a PDT club (less healing = more swinging). The multi-hitters just feed more TP and deal no additional damage.

If the swing deals at least 1 damage, the person using the offhand multi-hit weapon gets TP, which cannot possibly lower anyone's damage output. TP feed only matters on bosses that no single handed weapon user would bother trying to melee in the first place, why bother using that as the basis for an argument against it?

[Kincard]

TP feed only matters on bosses that no single handed weapon user would bother trying to melee in the first place

Eh, lots of situations where NIN/THF/BLU/DNC can contribute where TP Feed is still a concern. It's why THF is one of the more annoying jobs to take along low-man for meleeing (It has no subtle blow and thus the least bang for your buck). WHM melee, on the other hand, pretty much only happens on monsters where TP feed doesn't matter.

Kraken Club is still the best offhand for melee WHMs though. OA2-4 though, IIRC, doesn't beat STR.

[saevel]

If the swing deals at least 1 damage, the person using the offhand multi-hit weapon gets TP, which cannot possibly lower anyone's damage output. TP feed only matters on bosses that no single handed weapon user would bother trying to melee in the first place, why bother using that as the basis for an argument against it?

Umm NO. That's not how DW works. Dual wielding a 99 Mjoll with a warp club will reduce the damage of the Mjol due to the additional delay imposed by the sh!tty warp club. The OaX weapons suck because of their additional delay, it lowers their overall DPS to lower then a STR or equitable weapon. This applies to K.club as well, it's 8 DMG is so low that it's melee DPS is absolute crap, it's only function is to generate a ton of TP to spam WS's. Each hit of your weapon generates your TP + 3 (before store TP), this means that anything hitting multiple times per attack round is feeding tons of TP to the monster. Normally this isn't an issue as your dealing enough damage to justify that TP, except in the case of low damage multi-hit weapons. Your now dealing less damage overall then you would be by using a better off hand weapon and also feeding the target excessive TP.

If someone absolutely must use one of the non-STR magian clubs then use the DA+11% one, the DA will apply to your main weapon and WS's. Honestly though 340 delay is absolutely stupid, the 210 Delay of the elemental line is much better for your overall damage and survivability.

As for the Nabu vs Shedir, Nabu easy.
10 Attack
10 Accuracy
4% Haste

vs
10 STR (2.5 fSTR)
5 Attack
3% DA
4% Haste

Accuracy shouldn't ever be an issue on anything you'd be going Winja on, especially with auspice / misery.

[Economizer]

Kraken Club is still the best offhand for melee WHMs though. OA2-4 though, IIRC, doesn't beat STR.

This was close to what was going to be my answer. Basically, it boils down to "it parses better" which could take a while to beat considering the Kraken Club.

Someone could argue until they're blue in the face, but the parse doesn't lie.


Accuracy shouldn't ever be an issue on anything you'd be going Winja on, especially with auspice / misery.

Auspice got nerfed pretty hard, and the numbers we have for it are pretty lacking, so baring some solid testing, I don't even know if I should bother counting this as a legitimate point. I wouldn't exactly rely on the information we have on the spell now to make a judgement either, especially since we didn't even have good numbers back in 2009 pre-nerf, and that's where most of the information is coming from.

[saevel]

Auspice got nerfed pretty hard, and the numbers we have for it are pretty lacking, so baring some solid testing, I don't even know if I should bother counting this as a legitimate point. I wouldn't exactly rely on the information we have on the spell now to make a judgement either, especially since we didn't even have good numbers back in 2009 pre-nerf, and that's where most of the information is coming from.

Auspice / Misery is the icing, the cake itself is the fact that nothing you'd be meleeing on WHM should ever have a high level or evasion. This is the exact same reason I tend to disregard accuracy on melee RDM builds, current game dynamics simply do not support mage class's meleeing on anything worth a damn. That may or may not change in the future.

In any case, multi-hitters suck right now. There is nothing special about WHM / Club that makes it any different then Sword, Dagger, Katana or Axe. The only one that is remotely useful is the 2-4 dagger for DNC, and even they shun it for evasion / str daggers. If the job who's entire focus is rapid TP accumulation to use on abilities has little use for a multi-hit weapon, then WHM most definitely has zero use for it. This includes the Kraken Club, it's raw DPS was always absolute sh!t. It's only saving grace was on two jobs, one being SEBW zergling DRK, the other being RNG. RNG is currently the only job that finds it remotely useful.

[Caketime]

Just to make sure I'm following you properly, you say that multi-hit weapons feed too much TP. Yet, you also say the mob's level/evasion shouldn't ever be too high, which would imply weak TP moves in the first place, which kind of moots your original point about TP feed. If the mob's level is low, why does TP feed or the rate at which I bore the mob to death with my hammers have any bearing on the discussion?

[Zhronne]

Why is a salvage gear discussion turning into an offhand melee WHM discussion? I think I'm missing something here.

[Caketime]

I have a suspicion that alcohol was involved.

[Economizer]

Auspice / Misery is the icing,

Moving them goalposts. Give me solid numbers for why the accuracy bonus on Auspice makes a difference or don't mention it. I might even go so far as to say that Auspice's effects would even be a liability with some builds.


There is nothing special about WHM / Club

Kraken Club, B+ Club skill, lack of extensive access to double/triple/quad attack, non-native dual wield.


that makes it any different then Sword,

Native Dual Wield, good access to double/triple attack (BLU), good access to double/triple attack (RDM), shield user (PLD).


Dagger,

Native Dual Wield, good access to double/triple/quad attack (THF, DNC), good access to double/triple attack (RDM), good (might be iffy) access to double/triple/quad attack (BRD).


Katana

Native Dual Wield, good access to double/triple attack (NIN).


or Axe.

Good access to double/triple attack (BST,WAR).


If the job who's entire focus is rapid TP accumulation to use on abilities has little use for a multi-hit weapon, then WHM most definitely has zero use for it. This includes the Kraken Club, it's raw DPS was always absolute sh!t.

If a job's damage is heavily reliant on weapon skills, they'll want either faster TP or better weapon skills, not a focus on white damage, so whatever parses better will be better.

Can't change the parses. I'm sure many White Mages would like a better offhand so they could sell the Kraken Club or stop trying to get one, but until something changes, it's still shown to be king by the numbers.

[Demon6324236]

Why is a salvage gear discussion turning into an offhand melee WHM discussion? I think I'm missing something here.Its all because of a single body which may or may not be potentially useful for WHM melees because its stats beat Shedir in non-acc cases if you are using a non-multihit weapon. Technically relevant because its outcome depends on the real use of the body, the body can only really be good for a WHM who melees, and if said body can not be used with a WHM's best off hand then its not really good anyways, and thus is worse than the easier to obtain Shedir.

Long story short, its on topic because it is determining the overall value of a piece of the Neo-Salvage gear.

[saevel]

If a job's damage is heavily reliant on weapon skills, they'll want either faster TP or better weapon skills, not a focus on white damage, so whatever parses better will be better.

Can't change the parses. I'm sure many White Mages would like a better offhand so they could sell the Kraken Club or stop trying to get one, but until something changes, it's still shown to be king by the numbers.

*Slams head on desk*

DW would make K.Club more valuable not less, especially as it's 11 DMG makes it an incredibly low DPS weapon and whatever WS's you get off will be equally as low.

Native DW / DA /TA gear has absolutely nothing to do with it. A PLD has an A- club skill, no native DW and access to the best club ws (RR) and K.Club still sucks. Get off the K.Club boat, it sucks, it kinda sucked at 75 (except DRK zergling or RNG spamming) and really sucks at 99. Your feeding your target an insane amount of TP for very little damage return and thus necessitating more healing (less melee time). The only time the "TP feed" argument doesn't hold water is when your in a party with a dedicated healer, seeing as this is about WHM Winja, then we can assume you are your own healer. You would do more damage, feed less TP and require less healing if you used a STR club, there is even a strong argument for a PDT club.

If you have acc issues on a DC ~ T monster ... I'm gonna laugh very very hard.

[saevel]

Just for some comparisons here.

99 Mjollnir
DMG: 93 Rank 10 (18 cap fSTR cap)
Delay: 308
Raw DPS: 18.11, fSTR cap DPS: 21.62
Attack +40
3x damage on first hit with 13% proc rate.
Occasionally restores MP on hit

Tutunui
DMG: 52 Rank 5 (13 fSTR cap)
Delay 210
Raw DPS: 14.85, fSTR cap DPS: 18.57
STR +11
Attack +22 (27.5)

Tahtib
DMG: 37, rank 4 (12 fSTR cap)
Delay: 340
2~4 hits (40/30/20/10 distribution for 2.0 average per round)
Raw DPS: 13.05, fSTR cap DPS: 17.29

That's without touching the fact that STR club gives you +2.75 fSTR and +27.5 attack. At 0 DA (you'll always have at least 5 from brutal) STR club easily beats out 2~4 club. None of the 2~4x weapons are good due to low proc rates.

Kraken Club
DMG: 11, rank 1 (9 fSTR cap)
Delay: 265
hits 2~8x (2:5:20:23:23:20:5:2 distribution for 3.82 per round)
Raw DPS: 9.55, fSTR cap DPS: 17.28

As above both the STR club and the 2~4 club beat out the K.Club for DPS, without counting STR / Attack. K.Club attacks 3.82 times per attack round for an average TP gain of 26.74 per attack round. 2~4 club is 17.7 Tp per attack around and 8.08 TP per attack round. Those numbers are without counting the 30% DW that you should be using.

We can go deeper by combining Mjol with each and factoring out DPS but it gets sketchy depending on your target. Overall STR beats out everything with K.Club and 2~4 jocking for 2nd depending on situation. The 2~4's stupid delay and low proc rate are what make it tend to rank 3rd, KC's obscenely low base DMG are what prevent it from being first, even after counting for additional TP gain. Remember these weapons are paired with a high damage main hand that lowers their TP gain rate, that's why RNG's and DRK's would single wield them. RNG for high damage cannon spam, DRK for SEBW zerging (don't ever WS).

Side Note,
Something that has been glossed over is how deficient WHM is in attack. Not having native DW and being forced to /NIN or /DNC means no access to Berserk. Even accounting for Dia II the WHM will only be capping ratio on the really weak EP monsters. Anything level ~80 (~350 defense) or higher your not capping on. A 99 Taru WHM/NIN is looking at 80 base STR, adding on 12 for merits puts them at 92 base STR. To get +9 fSTR your going to need 36 dSTR (72 dSTR for Mjol), that same ~80 monster will have approx 75 VIT really easy to cap fSTR on the KC but not Mjol. DC Dyna mob has about 430 defense and 95 VIT, things just got much harder. Hit the 99 EM monster and your talking 516 defense and 118 VIT, good luck on that ratio and fSTR caps. This is why the STR magian weapons are so powerful, DW jobs are effected by fSTR more so then 2H jobs and DW jobs rarely have access to high attack values. This becomes and ever bigger issue for jobs that can't get Berserk and DWIII at the same time (PLD,BST,RDM,WHM,BRD) as their now lacking the single biggest attack buff JA in the game.

[Yenecol]

While you guys still decide the value of the whm pieces, I have come to realize why I am so pissed off at the Salvage gear. Just look at Sigyn's cuirie. This is the "casual" skadi body piece. Here are the stats: DEF:63 Accuracy+15 Ranged Accuracy+15 "Subtle Blow"+5 "Triple Attack"+3% Haste+4%
LV 99 THF BST RNG COR DNC

Now I am going to quote Curty from the FFXIAH since he said it perfectly, "Thaumas body obviously outdoes this for thf rng cor and dnc. Very minimal upgrade over porthos for bst assuming you can cut back on one haste and still be capped."

Oh, but Sigyn is casual content. Neo-nyzul is hardcore, right? All I have to do it pay 10mil to one of the groups doing constant runs and I can get myself that Thaumas coat is one run, one day. For the Sigyn, no matter how much gil you have or how super awesome l33t your group is, you need 15 umbrages. I get 3, maybe 4 umbrages from doing Arrapago Remnants II. So, I would need around 4-5 runs to get this piece (actually would need to do Zhayolm since that is where the Idi's Jerkin drops but you get my point). Let's say I already had a permit from before and I could do two Salvage runs in a row, it would still take me minimum of 3 days to get this piece. Sure, that doesn't sound too bad but again, I could get that Thaumus coat in 1 run, 1 day. And THAT is why am I annoy and THAT is why I have so much trouble getting people for Salvage - people realize they can get better gear faster doing Neo-Nyzul.

And remember, that was just for the new gear. To +1 a body, you are talking 50 of those damn plans. The rewards do not match the amount of work involved!

[Demon6324236]

When you factor in many of the groups which sell cheat in some form, they charge 10 Mil(high price for a lot of people, especially casual players) and the event itself is highly luck based, Salvage does not look all that bad in difficulty.

Though in a way, I agree, Salvage is asking you spend a lot of time and multiple runs, killing a boss at the end of which drops random gear, no 100% chance at what you want like with NNI, and also need plans, which are needed in high amounts for some gear which is fairly bad.

For instance the Skadi +1 feet. I understand its 18% move speed, which is awesome, some jobs like BST only have the Skadi feet for move speed anyways, so its really important. But the stats on the gear besides the move speed is terrible, only some STR, VIT, and Accuracy, stats we don't need in that slot anyways. Yet for these feet, 40 plans, at least about 10 runs.

The Skadi body, Dual Wield +7%, awesome, but guess what, Thaumas is still better, and it does not require 50 plans or anything like it, only 1 run from start to finish of NNI to floor 100, or just 5 to floor 80. Even shooting for floor 80 you will sooner see the Thaumas body than the Skadi.

I somewhat agree with you, that NNI gear is easier in some ways and Salvage gear does not live up to the work needed by compare. However I understand at the same time where SE was going with this, and why they made it how they did. The main difference I see personally between the two events for myself is that I never looked forward to doing NNI because it was a bunch of luck and annoyance at failures. However now I look forward to running Neo-Salvage on a daily basis because its fun, and we almost always kill the boss, leaving so sense of failure like with NNI, and a sense of progression which NNI also lacked because even if you do fail at the end, you walk away with some plans and some alexandrites.

[Yenecol]

Though in a way, I agree, Salvage is asking you spend a lot of time and multiple runs, killing a boss at the end of which drops random gear, no 100% chance at what you want like with NNI, and also need plans, which are needed in high amounts for some gear which is fairly bad.

For instance the Skadi +1 feet. I understand its 18% move speed, which is awesome, some jobs like BST only have the Skadi feet for move speed anyways, so its really important. But the stats on the gear besides the move speed is terrible, only some STR, VIT, and Accuracy, stats we don't need in that slot anyways. Yet for these feet, 40 plans, at least about 10 runs.

The Skadi body, Dual Wield +7%, awesome, but guess what, Thaumas is still better, and it does not require 50 plans or anything like it, only 1 run from start to finish of NNI to floor 100, or just 5 to floor 80. Even shooting for floor 80 you will sooner see the Thaumas body than the Skadi.

I somewhat agree with you, that NNI gear is easier in some ways and Salvage gear does not live up to the work needed by compare.

You definitely agree with me enough. You added nicely to the points I was trying to make.

[saevel]

When you factor in many of the groups which sell cheat in some form, they charge 10 Mil(high price for a lot of people, especially casual players) and the event itself is highly luck based, Salvage does not look all that bad in difficulty.

Though in a way, I agree, Salvage is asking you spend a lot of time and multiple runs, killing a boss at the end of which drops random gear, no 100% chance at what you want like with NNI, and also need plans, which are needed in high amounts for some gear which is fairly bad.

For instance the Skadi +1 feet. I understand its 18% move speed, which is awesome, some jobs like BST only have the Skadi feet for move speed anyways, so its really important. But the stats on the gear besides the move speed is terrible, only some STR, VIT, and Accuracy, stats we don't need in that slot anyways. Yet for these feet, 40 plans, at least about 10 runs.

The Skadi body, Dual Wield +7%, awesome, but guess what, Thaumas is still better, and it does not require 50 plans or anything like it, only 1 run from start to finish of NNI to floor 100, or just 5 to floor 80. Even shooting for floor 80 you will sooner see the Thaumas body than the Skadi.

I somewhat agree with you, that NNI gear is easier in some ways and Salvage gear does not live up to the work needed by compare. However I understand at the same time where SE was going with this, and why they made it how they did. The main difference I see personally between the two events for myself is that I never looked forward to doing NNI because it was a bunch of luck and annoyance at failures. However now I look forward to running Neo-Salvage on a daily basis because its fun, and we almost always kill the boss, leaving so sense of failure like with NNI, and a sense of progression which NNI also lacked because even if you do fail at the end, you walk away with some plans and some alexandrites.

They designed Salvage II gear for those people unable to hit the lottery with NNI. Remember when NNI gear was originally designed you were never expected to actually get it. It was the carrot at the end of Tanaka's infinitely retractable stick. That people figured out ways to circumvent SE's stick and just cut the carrot off wasn't planned for, that's the only reason NNI gear became anywhere near as achievable as it is now. They looked to remove two of the methods used to cut the string, first being that order lamps are now server side, second being the Embrava nerf (that hasn't yet happened). They also looked into putting a spring into the retractable stick, the stick's retractability is a bit more random, but that randomness as been weighted a bit more towards the player. Finally the made farming the pieces by less random means a bit more realistic (floor 80 farming). Honestly you were expected to use the +3 items and hope for a floor 100 item.

[Jaall]

Sorry all because I'm probably gonna annoy a lot of you by saying this... Why has final fantasy dropped so low as to be like WoW where if you don't have the best gear you're not accepted as a good player? Yes I admit the game is past it's sell by date, and it's a free for all to keep it alive with all the zerging content, but damn! They finally remake endgame that isn't just a zerg fest and is, in my opinion, 100x more fun than neo nyzul isle and here you all are slating SE for bringing back content that needs a little bit of strategy.

Salvage is easy with higher numbers but what makes it more fun is the challenge of defeating a HQ boss with 4 people and still having time to spare. Also planning the drops you want and choosing the paths, completing the requirements for nm pops etc, this is what final fantasy was always about. Why are so many people slaughtering SE for this content? Yes the gear isn't game breaking but it's still good if you get the right pieces and compared to 75 days it doesn't even take remotely long. Get a grip guys, people need to get back to playing for fun because isn't that what games are for, even mmo's?

[Zagen]

Why has final fantasy dropped so low as to be like WoW where if you don't have the best gear you're not accepted as a good player?
Did you miss the days of Scorpion Harness/Haubergeon or GTFO?

[Demon6324236]

Sorry all because I'm probably gonna annoy a lot of you by saying this... Why has final fantasy dropped so low as to be like WoW where if you don't have the best gear you're not accepted as a good player? Yes I admit the game is past it's sell by date, and it's a free for all to keep it alive with all the zerging content, but damn! They finally remake endgame that isn't just a zerg fest and is, in my opinion, 100x more fun than neo nyzul isle and here you all are slating SE for bringing back content that needs a little bit of strategy.

Salvage is easy with higher numbers but what makes it more fun is the challenge of defeating a HQ boss with 4 people and still having time to spare. Also planning the drops you want and choosing the paths, completing the requirements for nm pops etc, this is what final fantasy was always about. Why are so many people slaughtering SE for this content? Yes the gear isn't game breaking but it's still good if you get the right pieces and compared to 75 days it doesn't even take remotely long. Get a grip guys, people need to get back to playing for fun because isn't that what games are for, even mmo's?While I agree with you to a point, the reason people complain is because most of the gear from it is not as good as gear from Nyzul, while that gear takes longer. It gives less reason to do the event, making it harder to find people and in return, making the event less fun. In my opinion part of what makes an event fun is the ability to jump into it not long after choosing its what you want to do. Instead, I have been doing Neo-Salvage with a friend and we shout for people each day, sometimes it takes only about a hour, other times it can take 10 hours. I have little to no doubt that if it had better gear to offer, more people would shout for it, join our shouts, or at least be interested in the event, instead of it taking hours to fill up a 5 man group.

[Jaall]

FFXI has never been this bad for good gear or gtfo, and yes I was around back when it was hauby/scorp harness or gtfo but that wasn't enforced as much as it is now and you could still do most endgame without them. Now 90% of endgame requires them either because players are stubborn or the event really does require great gear.

I agree that it can be annoying finding people but even compared to the old 75 days, it usually doesn't take as long as it took to find a party back then. And you could always make a static, ideally content like this is designed for people to keep at it with the same group, to work through tactics and setups. Also I never said people stop complaining because they can't find people, that's fair enough, I said stop complaining because the gear isn't game breaking like neo nyzul isle (which btw is a lot harder so it makes a lot of sense to be better, even if it can be obtained in 1 day).

[Demon6324236]

Also I never said people stop complaining because they can't find people, that's fair enough, I said stop complaining because the gear isn't game breaking like neo nyzul isle (which btw is a lot harder so it makes a lot of sense to be better, even if it can be obtained in 1 day).I would like to argue the fact that NNI is not hard to reach floor 80 for a decent group, it takes 5 days to do 5 runs of floor 80, give or take a few fails along the way. A single piece of Salvage +1 gear is at least 40 plans. 40 plans are 8~10 runs at best, assuming you get 4~5 plans every single run, also you must kill the boss which drops the piece you want, and do old Salvage for the NQ piece. Add together this work and you find yourself much more time and effort poured into a piece of gear that is in many cases worse than the piece you could have gotten for less time. Let me be more specific, I want the Skadi +1 Body/Hands/Legs/Feet, and the fake set Feet. Thats more than 180 plans. Now assuming I get 5 plans every single run of Zhayolm I do, I will walk away with 180 plans after 36 runs, and then I must start on the pieces of gear. Zhayolm drops Body, Legs, and Feet, I believe. So I still need the hands from somewhere else, and I need the original pieces, at very least a total of another 4 to 5 runs I believe. So at best, I am taking 40 days for these 5 pieces of gear, and that is highly unlikely in and of itself.

Now, NNI offers 1 piece of gear every 5 days, no need to redo the original Nyzul, no need to get my gear AND items along with it as I only need the items, and if my group is good enough, we can just flat out go to floor 100, putting me at 5 pieces in only 5 days. If my group can not hit 100 however, I am sure we can hit 80, and at 80 we only need 5 wins, so 1 piece of gear in 5 days, that means 5 pieces in 25 days if everything goes well.

Both of these are unlikely, the chances of getting all 5 possible Umbrage plans to drop in every single run for Zhayolm is very, very, very, unlikely. The chances of getting floor 80 every single run without a single fail is again, unlikely because its luck based just like the Umbrage drops. But at their best, you will end up with better gear faster by doing NNI it would seem. Take into account fails at both events, bad drops in Salvage, bad jumps in Nyzul, the time you need for all of the extra items for Salvage gear, and overall I think NNI gear is honestly easier in the long run.

I know this post seems a bit big for what I am quoting but my point is that Salvage actually asks a lot more of you than NNI, however gives you seemingly less. It seems like if this is meant to be the casual event it is comparable to Mythics in my opinion. They said NNI is for the hardcores, and Salvage is for the casuals, then gave NNI a fairly straight forward way to get your things, and made Salvage a massive run around to get a lot more things for the final piece. It reminds me of how Relics are very simple and straight forward, however Mythics take much more work and running around, yet SE announced them as the 'Casual's Relic' line of weapons. At the same time, the ones with more work, are often underwhelming and not as good as the simpler and faster alternative.

That comparison may not be the best, but to me it seems to be somewhat the same case. I think some of the Salvage +1 gear is amazing, Skadi body is great for BST, Morrigan's has given us new nuking gear that blows away the old as well as weapon skill gear, Usu has given us some great gear for SAM, MNK, and PUP. But in the end, is the gear worth the effort they ask of us, and is it on par? Well, for Usu, NIN does not seem to get much use, Thaumas basically covered all of NIN's needs, and is still its best, other jobs like WAR, or DRK, got little as well, Skadi is beaten for almost all of its jobs by a range of gear, from Thaumas, to Athos, to Fajin Boots.

I agree with you that people should not have the stupid 'good gear or gtfo' mentality, but thats a problem with the players, not the content. The problems with requiring it at times is because SE has failed to balance things correctly, look at some of the mobs, their attacks, and their damage, the balance does not exist. Statics still work today, people take statics to NNI, shout groups often fail, people make statics for Meebles, Salvage, Limbus, and a few others, but in reality picking up a group is easier now because you can normally get people with decent gear, and so long as they pay attention, things are not hard to explain.

[detlef]

Nyzul is currently in a transitional stage where it's easier than ever but will likely become more difficult in the near future. So the present conditions probably aren't the best way to judge the event's intended difficulty.

That said, Salvage drops are pretty tough compared to Nyzul. The best thing Nyzul has going for it is both direct drops and a ki redeemable for the armor of your choice. When you are fortunate enough to win, you are guaranteed to get something you are after. And everybody in the group gets something guaranteed. Of course, this impacts the event's longevity, but I have enjoyed doing Nyzul on both my main and mule. I would also argue that it's more fun.

Salvage really requires a lot of grinding and is slow even under the best conditions if you are splitting drops with at least one other person. You're making guaranteed progress with each run, which is something people were clamoring for during VW's peak. But you're still restricted by the bosses which drop the 45's. Also I think the grind is a little too much effort for the rewards. Rather than 40-50 plans needed for +1's, something like 20-25 would be much more reasonable. Given the quality of the NQ gear (overall pretty meh), 5-10 plans is justified. For all the straight grinding you have to do (and it does get quite repetitive), rewards either need to come more frequently or be better to keep people interested.

[Zhronne]

FFXI has never been this bad for good gear or gtfo.
Uhmm in a way it is, and then again in a way it's not.
"good gear" in end-game communities was probably more enforced way back then (and it was much harder to obtain as well, imho, way less options, each and everyone requiring very large groups)
But the end game community as a whole was much smaller back then, there were way more casuals or people doing random stuff, in a way that if you didn't want to do endgame you'd still have a spot for something else.


This is the way I remember at least.
About nowadays more than just "good gear" it's about "good weapons" imho. Relic/Empy became so strong and so "easy to obtain" that in return they also became insanely common, and this made people expect and demand that you have one to be invited into a pt.
How many shouts you see with "need DRK/WAR/MNK, full Nyzul gear only plz"?
And how many do you see with "need DRK/WAR/MNK, R/E/M only plz"?
There you have it, this is the big difference.

And imho it's logic for things to be this way.
Relics/Mythics more common > More people have them > you're required to have one
For gear honestly there still are a lot of gear that range from decent to very good that you can obtain in abyssea or AH for cheap. Is it the best? No it's not, but it works, and for some jobs there are actually still pretty good combinations which are easy to obtain.


So yeah, imho it's more about the weapon elitism than generic gear elitism.
But in the end, can you blame it? It's something I don't like, but at the same time it doesn't seem something that can be avoided for the state the game (and the community) rightfully are in as of today.



Anyway, this sounds a bit off topic inside a Salvo discussion >___>
Altough it started pretty IT.
I'm with Demon on this thing, Salvo is great and fun, but as an event it's in a much different spot than it was 4 years ago, game is too different and gear is not good enough (while not bad, of course, some pieces are ossom) to stimulate enough people to do it.
Hope things will change over time, but I think it will require a couple tweaks.

[Zhronne]

Nyzul is currently in a transitional stage where it's easier than ever but will likely become more difficult in the near future. So the present conditions probably aren't the best way to judge the event's intended difficulty.
Which makes the whole situation even more ironic if you think about it.
By the time embrava will be nerfed in Nyzul like... 80% of the people who were interested in its gear will be capped, and only fools and noobs (and then again only a small % of them) will be left without of gear.
Some of these actually won't even care.

So yeah, it's preposterous, and ironic ^^'

[Jaall]

Yea salvage gear does seem worse for what it is but you also have to realise that they fill spots that NNI gear doesn't and give more options to different sets of gear. People don't seem to realise that a single piece of the new sets or +1 can replace a single other piece and give say 3-4 more gear options. I also agree that obtaining the gear isn't casual, but they might just mean that the difficulty is for the casual player as the mobs are fairly weak, especially compared to NNI. It might take a lot to get these new pieces of gear but at least it stops everyone being the same and gives a little bit of variety. I would even argue that I could make a better TP set replacing some phorcys with Ares+1 but I want to keep my plans secret so not gonna give out anything on that. I'd rather be wrong by a small margin and different than be the same as everyone else.

I think SE are doing the right thing for once, but it seems they cannot win until they break the game, and even then people will complain for it being broken. I feel, and a lot of people I talk to and do salvage with agree, that Salvage II is the bet endgame remake simply for the fact that you can play for the whole 100 mins inside salvage and never get bored. Also there are "ohshi...." moments, and laughs, as well as times where you have to work through mistakes and take them and learn from them. It's brought back the fun and the fact you can enter once a day gives me a whole new reason to keep playing. It's not all about what you get at the end of the run.

[Jaall]

I do agree with you all about the rewards being meh, I'm just asking, why cant a game just be about the content and not being the best? I got my relic just before christmas and really, it's made me realise... We all work towards having the best gear, but when we all have the best, what do we do with that? My answer... solo sky etc but that can get very boring. What else do I do? Stand around in port Jeuno doing nothing all day waiting for something interesting to happen which it rarely does in shouts. Point is, there's more to a game than just being the best and showing off, it's about fun or at least for me.

[Zagen]

I do agree with you all about the rewards being meh, I'm just asking, why cant a game just be about the content and not being the best? I got my relic just before christmas and really, it's made me realise... We all work towards having the best gear, but when we all have the best, what do we do with that? My answer... solo sky etc but that can get very boring. What else do I do? Stand around in port Jeuno doing nothing all day waiting for something interesting to happen which it rarely does in shouts. Point is, there's more to a game than just being the best and showing off, it's about fun or at least for me.

Because you play with other humans. It's a natural feeling in humans to want the best how strong that feeling is varies and what is defined as the "best" also varies.

Take away "best gear" from the game how much fun would you have fighting a monster or doing an event after the first time, the tenth time, or the hundredth time?

[Jaall]

Never said take away all the good gear, there was never any suggestion to take away NNI, legion etc. All I was saying is why can't people be happy with salvage being based on entertainment and not rewards? The game needs variety and I'm not slating the events which give great gear, but imo it's just not as fun because it's all about what you get at the end of the run. It's still alright and I never said it wasn't fun but salvage just has a whole lot more to offer in that respect. And while I agree some gear sucks from salvage, others are brilliant, so I don't see why people can't stop moaning about everything SE does just because it's not overpowered and some gear is better.

[Zagen]

Never said take away all the good gear, there was never any suggestion to take away NNI, legion etc. All I was saying is why can't people be happy with salvage being based on entertainment and not rewards? The game needs variety and I'm not slating the events which give great gear, but imo it's just not as fun because it's all about what you get at the end of the run. It's still alright and I never said it wasn't fun but salvage just has a whole lot more to offer in that respect. And while I agree some gear sucks from salvage, others are brilliant, so I don't see why people can't stop moaning about everything SE does just because it's not overpowered and some gear is better.

It's a catch 22. Without better gear there is no reason for people to do an event that isn't unique on the game play side. That is why I worded my question the way I did.

Don't get me wrong there are some gear options in Salvage 2 that are better than NNI but not in all cases. While Salvage 2 is easier and more forgiving than NNI, without the gear being much better someone who has neither gear will go after the event with overall better gear and potentially faster rewards.

Thus people complain.

[detlef]

Never said take away all the good gear, there was never any suggestion to take away NNI, legion etc. All I was saying is why can't people be happy with salvage being based on entertainment and not rewards?I think one issue is that neo-Salvage is a true grind-fest. You go in there, do the same path over and over, and collect plans. I enjoy doing neo-Salvage with friends but the event itself can get very monotonous.

[Zhronne]

why cant a game just be about the content and not being the best?
It is like that, for some people.
Just not for the majority.
Give two paths to obtain the same things to people, one annoyingly retarded, ugly to play, but more efficient/faster, and another which is a shitton of fun to play, but less efficient and slower.
Which path do you think people, or at least the great majority of people, will pick up?
It's like that in all MMO, and it's always been a mess for developers to balance.
"Every law has a loophole"
Players will always try to circumvein game mechanics, take advantage of broken stuff, and do things int he most efficient/faster way, even if it's the least entertaining one. Can't help it :P


We all work towards having the best gear, but when we all have the best, what do we do with that?
This has always been a problem in FFXI, to a certain extent.
It's not something recent Jaall.
I've been asking myself that question for a long time and... there is no answer.
Up to a certain point, gear just make you more efficient in the things you do, but past that you just get gear because you want to get gear.
In other games it's quite different, take WoW for instance, but then again the concept of gear is much different there. The way you get it, how fast/often you get it, the purpose it serves, etc etc.

The WoW model is way more logic and efficient maybe, but personally I've always liked the FFXI one more, as pointless as it really is beneath it all.

[saevel]

Both of these are unlikely, the chances of getting all 5 possible Umbrage plans to drop in every single run for Zhayolm is very, very, very, unlikely

Umm what...

Each zone you can hit up to 6 NM's and each zone is weighted towards a single plan type. Why on earth would you possibly want to do the "hardest" zone for the lesser dropped plan? If you want Umbrage then do Arrapago, you will get a least five umbrage and one or two blood. Some of the NM's can double drop Umbrage so it's likely you can get seven. I know when we do SSR I tend to walk away with seven Primacy plans.

[Jaall]

Yea it is actually very very likely to get 4-5 plans per run, obviously depending on what path you choose, and on every path you'll also get 3-4 of the opposite plan. The hard part about salvage II is the 45 farming because that actually can take skill to defeat the HQ bosses. If it drops from NQ and you get lucky then great but the drop rates less on NQ. You need a lot of plans yes but reality it will only take you 10 days ish of the same run to finish 2 pieces of +1 so it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be. I remember going 2 years without even getting a chance for valor surcoat, to get it in 10 days would have been a miracle!

[saevel]

The hard part about salvage II is the 45 farming because that actually can take skill to defeat the HQ bosses.

The key is to control TP feed, which can be quite hard as your on a time crunch. Our four man static rotates zones with each member getting to pick any zone they want for their turn. We've nailed down each zone pretty solidly. Bhaflau Remnants II is stupid easy followed by SSR and Arrapago with Zhayolm Remnants II being the hardest due to the unlock distribution, Hydra spamming Pyric Bulwark, and HQ Hydra triple attacking for 400 damage each hit. Bringing a good DRK who has a PDT and Hybrid PDT set makes it much more manageable, same with Arrapago.

[Demon6324236]

I was using the runs I have been doing as an example, which I have been doing Zhayolm, thus leading to what I said. Sorry my numbers were a bit off, however the point I was making still stands, and in a group like yours, its even more so the point. Where as everyone would be making progress in NNI, in Salvage we have to lot plans of which are dropped, meaning an area rotating idea such as yours works well, however it also means your getting the pieces even slower.

In the end Salvage is a slower event in a few ways, you must go every other day, no tags to store up, so at best you can do two runs every two days. drops are limited to 1 person not given to everyone upon mob death, no 100% chance at the item of your choice if you kill the HQ. The time per run is 100 minutes rather than 30 minutes, Salvage has a lot more stopping where as Nyzul is constantly moving or failure. Salvage needs old drops as well as new for some of the gear, NNI gave you the gear straight up. Salvage requires plans to get the gear, NNI had no special requirement such as that, the closest was the 5~25 KIs needed for a piece from the next tier, which when doing floor 100, was non-comparable anyways.

This was the point I attempted to make, sorry my number was off due to my farming in a certain area, I should have checked BG and DB before posting an exact number.

[Jaall]

It's really not that much of a chore, and if it is, stick to nyzul. Nobodies forcing you to do salvage. Everyone gets a chance at something because SE have designed it well in the fact that item drops from NQ and HQ are mostly the opposite to the plans that drop in a certain area. For example, Skadi and Ares plans drop in arrapago, and to coincide with that Usukane, Morrigans and Marduk 45's drop from bosses. Also there is a bonus to defeating the HQ boss, and that is the drop rates are better and a guaranteed linen pouch. We split every piece of alex we got from yesterdays run and made 1.5m each. After 1 run that is a very nice amount considering you can go once a day, so most of your argument is invalid. It is slower due to you needing more, but that means it is what SE said it is... "casual". If you don't believe that this is casual content, just look up the definition, I'll even provide a link for you - http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/casual?q=casual

[Demon6324236]

It's really not that much of a chore, and if it is, stick to nyzul. Nobodies forcing you to do salvage.You seem to be missing the subject all that is on, the entire reason I am trying to point out Salvage takes more work is because that is the exact reason that a lot of people complain about the gear. If the gear was worse and took less time then it would make sense, however few people are willing to go through an event many times to get a piece of gear that is worse than something they could have gotten in half the time. If you are doing the event for fun, awesome, it may be fun for you, it certainly is for me, I love it, and I see good rewards I want as well, so its even better for me. But as for people who are not looking to do it just for fun and want something to improve their character from it, they are missing out in a lot of cases because the gear is not better. Gear is simply another incentive as to why you should do the event, and by compare to Limbus, Einherjar, Nyzul, VW, Legion, Abyssea, and Meebles, Salvage seems to have some good for some certain jobs and a lot of bad for more common jobs such as WAR or DRK.

[saevel]

Where as everyone would be making progress in NNI, in Salvage we have to lot plans of which are dropped, meaning an area rotating idea such as yours works well, however it also means your getting the pieces even slower.

Not really. If you have two other characters of the rights jobs you can tri box the zones to get a few plans each, can even clear Bhaflau Remnants II. The difficulty level was set very carefully, it's just hard enough that bringing real people actually makes a difference in progress, its definitely not abyssea. Yet it's not stupid random like NNI was, requiring a very specific setup and abusing game mechanics along secret ninja techniques. A four member team can clear every Salvage II zone and hit all six NM's plus both the megaboss's. This leads to rapid acquisition of plans and 45 pieces, I'm 5/5 on Morrigan's 45 already along with having extras from the other sets (due to other members already having them). I wasn't joking when I said seven plans plus a few extra. Each zone drops two types of plans, one is primary while the other is a secondary drop. You can plan your routes to get slightly more of the secondary type but it's far more efficient to farm the primary's of each zone. Again using SSR as an example you can get six primacy plans guaranteed with five of the NM's having a chance to drop two primacy, my biggest haul as nine in one run though I was extremely lucky on double drops. Bhaflau is the same with ritualistic. Zhao / Arapago have stupid pathing that no matter what path you take, your gonna be forced to fight a NM that drops the opposite of what you want. Zhao you get four guaranteed blood and two guaranteed umbrage with most of the NM's able to drop two bloods. We typically walk out with six bloods and two to three umbrages. Thankfully our guy on Blood also wants Umbrage so he wins no matter what.

Anyhow we're all 15/15 on NNI and players don't really have to chose which one to do with how cheap permits are now. NNI gear acquisition was stupidly random before they made it five floor 80 wins (without a specific setup and secret ninja magic). Your looking at a piece of 100 gear every few months, assuming you did four ~ five runs once a week with a static (seriously most people don't play this game every single day). With Salvage II you'll get pieces slightly faster but with significantly less randomness, which IIRC is exactly what everyone was complaining about with NNI.

[Jaall]

But as for people who are not looking to do it just for fun and want something to improve their character from it, they are missing out in a lot of cases because the gear is not better.

If they're the type of player who just does things for the reward, and this offers no reward, they dont miss out at all, they just dont do it...

[Demon6324236]

If they're the type of player who just does things for the reward, and this offers no reward, they dont miss out at all, they just dont do it...Missing out on getting new content, if SoA offers no good gear a lot of people who are like that will not do the expansions primary content I am sure, they will pick and choose a few things to do and anything without a worthy reward will be ignored by them, if thats the case they miss out on a ton of what the expansion may offer. Originally you asked why people complain about the gear, and why they can not just do it for fun, I am trying to explain why. People complain because they want new content to do, and the content they got is something they want to do, but wont do because they do not see the reward from doing it. Another reason why people complain is because Nyzul and Salvage were swapped, where Salvage was the old amazing gear while Nyzul was the easy but ok gear, it is not the other way around. A lot of people expected Neo-Salvage to have gear that was on Nyzul's current level or above, and are disappointed.

[Jaall]

Lol... seriously have you seen what you're saying? They aren't missing out at all because everyone has access. They have a choice to do salvage no matter what, they can join for fun and get sets for different jobs or just get nothing and play solely for the enjoyment. If people decide they don't want anything from it and then refuse to do it and say SE aren't including them then they don't deserve anything.

[Jaall]

Also life brings all sorts of disappointment, if they can't handle a game swapping Nyzul and Salvage standards when it's really designed to be different then wow, people need to get out more. But then that probably explains why they take a game so seriously! All im saying is people elude me when it comes to this.

[Areayea]

For a single piece, I'm doing something like a month of neo salvage runs every day, spending 300k on gold coins, and then have to trade in my old item in addition to that. Some of the upgrades (Usukane Sune-Ate +1) are quite good, while some are almost totally pointless (Skadi's Jambeaux +1). Unless there's some kind of augment system that hasn't been discovered yet these pieces are pretty lackluster for the amount of effort they require to obtain. Keep in mind, you're sacrificing doing a normal salvage run in favor of doing neo salvage, so you're technically losing out on hundreds of thousands of gil with every single run.



HOW CAN U NOT LOVE +18% FOR BST X.X, only question

[Yenecol]

In the end Salvage is a slower event in a few ways, you must go every other day, no tags to store up, so at best you can do two runs every two days. drops are limited to 1 person not given to everyone upon mob death, no 100% chance at the item of your choice if you kill the HQ. The time per run is 100 minutes rather than 30 minutes, Salvage has a lot more stopping where as Nyzul is constantly moving or failure. Salvage needs old drops as well as new for some of the gear, NNI gave you the gear straight up. Salvage requires plans to get the gear, NNI had no special requirement such as that, the closest was the 5~25 KIs needed for a piece from the next tier, which when doing floor 100, was non-comparable anyways.

This was the point I attempted to make, sorry my number was off due to my farming in a certain area, I should have checked BG and DB before posting an exact number.
You get it Demon. You totally get it. Kudos! I liked all of your posts. You understand exactly why fans of Salvage, such as myself, are pissed off.

[Jaall]

You get it Demon. You totally get it. Kudos! I liked all of your posts. You understand exactly why fans of Salvage, such as myself, are pissed off.

You're a fan of salvage REWARDS, not salvage.

[Asymptotic]

Just for some comparisons here.

99 Mjollnir
DMG: 93 Rank 10 (18 cap fSTR cap)
Delay: 308
Raw DPS: 18.11, fSTR cap DPS: 21.62
Attack +40
3x damage on first hit with 13% proc rate.
Occasionally restores MP on hit

Tutunui
DMG: 52 Rank 5 (13 fSTR cap)
Delay 210
Raw DPS: 14.85, fSTR cap DPS: 18.57
STR +11
Attack +22 (27.5)

Tahtib
DMG: 37, rank 4 (12 fSTR cap)
Delay: 340
2~4 hits (40/30/20/10 distribution for 2.0 average per round)
Raw DPS: 13.05, fSTR cap DPS: 17.29

That's without touching the fact that STR club gives you +2.75 fSTR and +27.5 attack. At 0 DA (you'll always have at least 5 from brutal) STR club easily beats out 2~4 club. None of the 2~4x weapons are good due to low proc rates.

Kraken Club
DMG: 11, rank 1 (9 fSTR cap)
Delay: 265
hits 2~8x (2:5:20:23:23:20:5:2 distribution for 3.82 per round)
Raw DPS: 9.55, fSTR cap DPS: 17.28

As above both the STR club and the 2~4 club beat out the K.Club for DPS, without counting STR / Attack. K.Club attacks 3.82 times per attack round for an average TP gain of 26.74 per attack round. 2~4 club is 17.7 Tp per attack around and 8.08 TP per attack round. Those numbers are without counting the 30% DW that you should be using.

We can go deeper by combining Mjol with each and factoring out DPS but it gets sketchy depending on your target. Overall STR beats out everything with K.Club and 2~4 jocking for 2nd depending on situation. The 2~4's stupid delay and low proc rate are what make it tend to rank 3rd, KC's obscenely low base DMG are what prevent it from being first, even after counting for additional TP gain. Remember these weapons are paired with a high damage main hand that lowers their TP gain rate, that's why RNG's and DRK's would single wield them. RNG for high damage cannon spam, DRK for SEBW zerging (don't ever WS).

Side Note,
Something that has been glossed over is how deficient WHM is in attack. Not having native DW and being forced to /NIN or /DNC means no access to Berserk. Even accounting for Dia II the WHM will only be capping ratio on the really weak EP monsters. Anything level ~80 (~350 defense) or higher your not capping on. A 99 Taru WHM/NIN is looking at 80 base STR, adding on 12 for merits puts them at 92 base STR. To get +9 fSTR your going to need 36 dSTR (72 dSTR for Mjol), that same ~80 monster will have approx 75 VIT really easy to cap fSTR on the KC but not Mjol. DC Dyna mob has about 430 defense and 95 VIT, things just got much harder. Hit the 99 EM monster and your talking 516 defense and 118 VIT, good luck on that ratio and fSTR caps. This is why the STR magian weapons are so powerful, DW jobs are effected by fSTR more so then 2H jobs and DW jobs rarely have access to high attack values. This becomes and ever bigger issue for jobs that can't get Berserk and DWIII at the same time (PLD,BST,RDM,WHM,BRD) as their now lacking the single biggest attack buff JA in the game.

Considering WHM/NIN vs. DCs in Dynamis using Realmrazer, Mjollnir 99 using Red Curry Buns.

Optimal
Kraken DPS: 255

Sort of acceptable
STR Magian DPS: 203
OA2-4 Magian DPS: 202
OAT Magian DPS: 200

<Run away!>
Yagrush 99 DPS: 192
Gambanteinn 99 DPS: 191
Store TP Magian DPS: 191
Moepapa DPS: 184
DA Magian DPS: 182

Calculated before the most recent update, but there's been nothing introduced to vastly change these numbers.

Using my TP set (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/240165) which is sub-optimal because I refuse to make a regain moonshade for an activity as whimsical as clubbing.

You somehow seem to completely ignore(?) underestimate(?) the potency of Kraken's increased WS frequency.

You are right that, for example Fire Magian club offhand slightly increases melee dot (129), but compared to the Kraken Offhand (3.96 rounds --> WS) it has drastically decreased WS frequency (8.29 rounds ---> WS). Realmrazer is no slouch with an optimal build versus these targets (~2600), so that's a huge hit to your damage. Tathib OA2-4 fares a bit better (5.12 rounds / WS) but actually has worse melee dps (111) than Kraken offhand (117).

Another benefit to WHM melee is infinite MP from Mystic Boon, which would lower these DPS numbers but just doesn't happen without a Kraken Club. A non-kraken melee/support WHM might have to use mystic boon all the time to keep up its TP due to casting delay, and longer intervals between WS. Kraken WHM can freely use its damaging WS because the next opportunity to use Mystic Boon to refresh your pool is right around the corner.

An optimal WHM melee build also naturally has 46% Subtle blow when Auspice is counted, so the "TP feed" even in cases where enemies would naturally use their TP right away (not most of the time) is not as severe as you might think.

These numbers may seem low but that's because this assumes no outside support. Throw in a DNC or a BRD or a COR or Embrava or something and WHM melee becomes "respectable" versus weak targets (of course at this point the actual value of this is questionable outside of "It's fun as hell to smack things in the face with a hammer on WHM"). Still, it's a lot more damage than your WHM would be doing sitting on the backlines, so if it's an event that would support a frontline WHM, and the WHM has Relic/Kclub and decent TP/WS sets, and the WHM is capable of taking care of their duties while meleeing, you're increasing your output by converting your healer into half of a DD.

[Zagen]

You're a fan of salvage REWARDS, not salvage.
You're obtuse.

Without rewards, for most players there is no point in doing an event that another player happens to find fun, since salvage can't be soloed without there being rewards to entice a larger player base the odds of being able to do salvage for those who find it fun are slim to none.

[Byrth]

Wasn't the answer to the OP question "yes?" I'm particularly happy with the rewards.


If I was going to complain about new Salvage, my complaints would be:

1) It's too easy.
Original Salvage was something that you and your 5 most skilled friends went and did 5 nights a week for a year. New Salvage is a disappointment on that front, with most zones being multi-box-able.

2) It's too straightforward.
One of the most fun parts of the original Salvage was figuring out spawn conditions, almost all of which were incredibly obscure. It was a community-wide exercise that went on for over a year following release. On one hand, this indicates terrible / frustrating design because it would take players a full run to eliminate one possibility. On the other hand, it was a really exciting challenge that strengthened the online community.

3) The rewards aren't good enough to justify a more challenging event.
I don't know if this is a complaint really, but SE appropriately matched reward difficulty to event difficulty. I do a run in 90 minutes with two mules and get ~100 Alexandrite, 2-4 45 armors, and ~7 "Plans" on average. It takes approximately 7 runs to get one completed armor, and you're never waiting on the 45 to drop after the start. So one Armor per week which requires a time investment of about 11 hours.
In those same 11 hours, you make ~11mil (Alexandrite is 15k each on Lakshmi). 1mil/hr is approximately the gil-farming standard I go by these days, so it meets the requirements to do purely for gil. I'm done the three armors that I really wanted and now I'm messing around with other zones because the gil is good and the armors are just a bonus. This kind of gil-farming event is not a change from what I've been doing elsewhere and really wasn't what I looked forward to in Salvage (see points 1 and 2).


So yes, I think that the rewards are fine for the event that they made. I wish they had made a more difficult event that was true to the original Salvage, but they didn't. Regardless whether or not it's true to the original Salvage, this is still one of the most intricate and rewarding events SE has released in a long time and I enjoy doing it.

[Jaall]

You're obtuse.

Without rewards, for most players there is no point in doing an event that another player happens to find fun, since salvage can't be soloed without there being rewards to entice a larger player base the odds of being able to do salvage for those who find it fun are slim to none.

Luckily for most then it is easy and you only need 4 decent players. People should stop complaining. The rewards are good for the difficulty it offers. You all want an answer - I'm happy with the rewards because although they take 2 WHOLE weeks!! Shock horror that I might have to spend 2 weeks to get some gear! They also offer some nice alternatives compared to NNI gear, which btw isn't "all that". If you use phorcys full set, full time, you're doing it wrong. What do you do for the slots where Phorcys isn't good in tp set? Ohai there Ker's/Ares. Same goes with usu, and skadi's has some nice utility pieces. The rewards are good and justified for the difficulty. If you don't like it, don't do it. Simples.

[Zagen]

Luckily for most then it is easy and you only need 4 decent players. People should stop complaining. The rewards are good for the difficulty it offers. You all want an answer - I'm happy with the rewards because although they take 2 WHOLE weeks!! Shock horror that I might have to spend 2 weeks to get some gear! They also offer some nice alternatives compared to NNI gear, which btw isn't "all that". If you use phorcys full set, full time, you're doing it wrong. What do you do for the slots where Phorcys isn't good in tp set? Ohai there Ker's/Ares. Same goes with usu, and skadi's has some nice utility pieces. The rewards are good and justified for the difficulty. If you don't like it, don't do it. Simples.

What if you can't find 4 or 2 who're good at dualboxing people who happen to want gear from there?

Byrth touched on what would be the all around most appealing and that's Alexanderite. Assuming you're working on a Mythic or happen to need more gil than soloing/duoing Dynamis generates.

Also I hope you aren't serious about arguing "full time NNI gear"...

[Jaall]

I'm sure you'll be able to find 3 more people assuming you are one who wants to do salvage. It's really not that hard. And everyone seems to be saying "why choose salvage rewards over NNI" so I can only assume they use full time phorcys/Thaumus.

[saevel]

So yes, I think that the rewards are fine for the event that they made. I wish they had made a more difficult event that was true to the original Salvage, but they didn't.

My only answer to this is NO NO F*CKING HELL NO.

Original Salvage f*cked over most of the server and was an incredibly exclusive event. Obfuscation of event mechanics is known as fake difficulty (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty) and is considered bad game design. The stupidly low drop rates that required players to play EVERY SINGLE DAY for a year is fake balance (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeBalance) which is part of fake longevity. The boss's were not that hard, the event was not that hard, the only "difficulty / challenge" came in the form of insane randomness and hiding the game mechanics. Once the mechanics were known it become a grind fest of farming the exact same random NM's over and over again hoping for your rare drop.

Original salvage SUCKED and sucked hard. It only served to separate the servers into two categories, those without jobs, social relationships and real life goals vs those with jobs, social relationships and real life goals. The former felt they were somehow *special* because they gave up their social lives, career advancements and goals for a video game. It was the text book definition of bad content and I hope that we NEVER EVER EVER see another event like that again. I hope everyone wanting another "Original Salvage" has their character nuked into oblivion, that or has children and realizes how utterly stupid their request was.


Regardless whether or not it's true to the original Salvage, this is still one of the most intricate and rewarding events SE has released in a long time and I enjoy doing it.

This I can agree with. The event is accessible to everyone, the mechanics are rather straightforward and not overly cryptic. NM pop conditions weren't that hard to figure out. Most importantly, even if the group wipes to the HQ or fails to pop the NQ you still have some progress on getting the gear via plan farming. The nature of the plans lends itself to rotating zones amongst group members so that everyone gets something and works together.

Now does that mean some asshats are going to tri-box the zones? Of course it does, there are people in every game who will seek to maximize their personal gear acquisition. The developers should not let the incredible minority ruin the event for the majority. For every asshat I see trying to tri-box the zones I see four or more groups going in and doing it as a team.

[Jaall]

Exactly Saeval! There are some very nice rewards from salvage II and they really don't take that much to get. Ok, relative to NNI which can only take a day, salvage takes a while but it's really nowhere near as long as it used to take and still requires no sacrifice to real life. Whereas in Salvage I... well that's already been explained. Also NNI is very luck based and less strategy based, I still haven't been successful in my runs because I don't have DRK WAR or SCH lvled and i refuse to lvl them just for that event so I don't get many chances at it. Salvage will guarantee you something every single run. If you have a group that is fair and full of team players then you will split the drops evenly (1 type of plan to 1 person, the other type to another, and split 45's between the last 2. If not then you can always make your own shout run and lock the plans/45 you need.

Salvage is now much more accessible for everyone even if half the population doesn't want anything from it and the rewards are very good, the only reason people don't think they're good is because the time it takes to get 1 piece is longer than NNI. But this is an invalid argument because think about how long NNI has been out, and the nerfs it's had because it was too difficult. If we think about how long it took to get 1 nyzul piece when it was first released it was a lot longer than what salvage is now, but because everybody figured out that you can effectively zerg it, the time to obtain the gear was drastically reduced. So, what im saying is - Salvage gear does take a couple of weeks to get which does put people off, but relative to Salvage I and NNI in the first few weeks of release, it's actually not that bad. And relative to the amount of people required for Salvage I and the difficulty level there, it's very easy and fast to find the amount of people needed and also gives an even distribution of drops. If you are missing out on drops then either you're taking too many people, aren't figuring out the right routes or simply aren't good enough to get to the HQ boss (Which isn't that hard). Overall, as I've mentioned before, Salvage II rewards are nice for the difficulty level. Also they look amazing!

[saevel]

The time it would take to get one floor 100 piece from original NNI (post floor 80/100 select update) is much longer then get from salvage, assuming your doing it "legit". The event played as designed, with no magic from the land of azure undergarments, has a stupidly low chance of ever seeing floor 100. The sheer number of "f*ck yous" that the RNG can throw at you are what cause's the issue. The event was obviously never designed for the player to actually see floor 100, as evidenced in the original release having people jump PAST floor 100 entirely. You were supposed to do 4~5 runs per week (usually on weekend or scheduled time with your group) and see floor 100 every four to six months. Obviously the people from the land of the azure undergarments are not going to wait four to six months per item and devised various secret ninja techniques that when combined with a very strict strategy resulted in vastly enhanced win conditions. It was a "cheat to win" event which again only served to separate the game population into "have" and "have nots" with the former being the ones who had access to / willing to use those secret ninja techniques.

[Camiie]

It makes me wonder... Did they design this event with cheaters in mind or did the devs not learn anything from the past 10 years? If they make events built on highly limiting systems, players will cheat to win. They will bot timed spawns, buy gil for rare/expensive items, walk through walls, flee hack, bot fishing, etc. Doesn't that sort of negate keeping gear rare and available for only the best players, or is player skill measured solely by how much one is willing to cheat to get results?

[Zagen]

The time it would take to get one floor 100 piece from original NNI (post floor 80/100 select update) is much longer then get from salvage, assuming your doing it "legit". The event played as designed, with no magic from the land of azure undergarments, has a stupidly low chance of ever seeing floor 100. The sheer number of "f*ck yous" that the RNG can throw at you are what cause's the issue. The event was obviously never designed for the player to actually see floor 100, as evidenced in the original release having people jump PAST floor 100 entirely. You were supposed to do 4~5 runs per week (usually on weekend or scheduled time with your group) and see floor 100 every four to six months. Obviously the people from the land of the azure undergarments are not going to wait four to six months per item and devised various secret ninja techniques that when combined with a very strict strategy resulted in vastly enhanced win conditions. It was a "cheat to win" event which again only served to separate the game population into "have" and "have nots" with the former being the ones who had access to / willing to use those secret ninja techniques.
Luck + crappy players = never gonna see 100s in the current NNI. The same would apply with Salavage and any other event except maybe Abyssea due to the ease or VW due to the odds of having 18 crappy players.

When NNI first came out I agree it seemed designed for hacks but as it stands now it's realistically doable even without extra items such as Powder Boots, or even Oils/Powders.

Salvage released 2 items I'm interested in getting... NNI on the other hand had 9 I really wanted and 3 more that would be nice to have when NNI was released. So 12/15 I was interested in vs. the 2/30 from salvage...

At this point it's seems people are happy with the minimal upgrades from Salvage 2, I wasn't because most of it doesn't beat VW, Abyssea or NNI.

[detlef]

There were times when Nyzul was a cheater's paradise. That time is not now however. Right now, any group can hit 100 completely legit. And if you aren't 15/15, you should definitely drop what you're doing and get in there right now.

In terms of reward/effort, Nyzul is presently second only to Abyssea.

[Jaall]

Just gonna add in, there is very little luck needed in salvage II, the only thing luck needed for is some 45 drops but they're no where near rare in comparison to VW. And in regards to it not being as good as Abyssea/VW, it depends what you use alongside it as to whether it is better or not. You have a lot more options with the new pieces and some can produce amazing sets, which exceed all Abyssea and VW standards and make NNI sets shine even more.

[Yenecol]

You're a fan of salvage REWARDS, not salvage.You don't know me and you are clueless. I do salvage every day because I love it and I keep trying to figure out where I can best use salvage gear. Do not pretend to understand me because you do NOT. I want gear to be better so it is easier to find people to do this with me.

[Yenecol]

You're obtuse.

Without rewards, for most players there is no point in doing an event that another player happens to find fun, since salvage can't be soloed without there being rewards to entice a larger player base the odds of being able to do salvage for those who find it fun are slim to none.Zagen, you get it too. I am going to do the equivalent of blacklist Jaall and just not read anything she posts. From what I have read already, talking to her is as fruitful as talking to a brick wall.

[Afania]

1) It's too easy.
Original Salvage was something that you and your 5 most skilled friends went and did 5 nights a week for a year. New Salvage is a disappointment on that front, with most zones being multi-box-able.


I'd say the difficulty of new salvage is just right. In fact it's probably most "balanced" event SE made in past 3 years. Only bad part about it is NQ salvage gear, which is required to upgrade +1, is still a pain to get due to shit drop rate and shit pop rate in BR rampart.

Salvage2 is incredibly accessable and clearable on most jobs(certain boss would be easier with certain DD though, such as twilight scythe DRK), but not to a point that you can just go in without organization and still do full clear. It's also way easier to get enough ppl to enter if there are lower skill requirement for anyone doesn't own multiple characters. Personally I think a content is most enjoyable if I can get ppl to do it easily whenver I log on, instead of having to sacrifice rl schedule to gather ppl in different timezone/play time just because I need "5 most skilled friends" to do it. If I can just log on, drag anyone that's PUP main, or DNC main, instead of rag DRK WAR only to do the content, and fill up the spot with /shout, then it's certainly more enjoyable than finding 5 "most skilled friends" with specific job/gear/skill lv, and if 1 person don't pop we can't go, nor rep that player by /shout or ask in social LS.

I don't mind an event being harder, but I think event shouldn't be hard because everyone have different schedule and live in different timezone. A balanced difficulty doens't have to hand out gears in days, but it should be accessable to most of the players.

For those looking for a challenge, challenge is there if you try to look for it. I often do something like 1hr AR2 full clear challenge with my pt, killing all NM plus double boss in 1hr does require pt member knowing what to do and above avg DD gears. That's why I think the difficulty is just right, if I can't get most skilled friends, I can still go in with less skilled friends and get shit done. If I can get most skilled friends, I can try to do faster and more efficient runs and get more shit done in less time. Either way it's better than log on, sit in Jeuno and do nothing because all my most skilled friends are sleeping/working and I can't clear with my less skilled friends.

[Jaall]

You don't know me and you are clueless. I do salvage every day because I love it and I keep trying to figure out where I can best use salvage gear. Do not pretend to understand me because you do NOT. I want gear to be better so it is easier to find people to do this with me.

It's harder to find 2 sch with capped enh magic for NNI than it is to find 3 random people for salvage.

[saevel]

It makes me wonder... Did they design this event with cheaters in mind or did the devs not learn anything from the past 10 years? If they make events built on highly limiting systems, players will cheat to win. They will bot timed spawns, buy gil for rare/expensive items, walk through walls, flee hack, bot fishing, etc. Doesn't that sort of negate keeping gear rare and available for only the best players, or is player skill measured solely by how much one is willing to cheat to get results?

They originally designed the event simply to not be winnable. The gear was made so good to act as a carrot. Think the original AV and PW fights. PW was unkillable and had infinite forms (effectively infinite HP) and AV was so bat sh!t crazy that it could CS meteor your entire alliance and then Benediction himself to full HP. Except in this case if you rolled the dice and got lucky on the result, you got the reward. It would be like poping (original) AV / PW and immediately doing a /random, if you got 999 they would fall over dead after 5m, otherwise they would do 9,999 damage to everyone.

NNI ~now~ is very winnable, floor 100 still requires a strict strategy and judicial use of secret ninja techniques, but as there are now slightly less random things being thrown at you, you have a higher win rate. The real victory is that floor 80 is *much* easier to farm without any secret ninja techniques. A group of skilled players can hit floor 80 4~5 times per weekend and thus walk away with one floor 100 piece of their choice. A group of skilled players who are willing to bend the rules a little can hit floor 100 most of the time and walk away with tons of gear. A group of skilled players who are willing to straight up break the rules can hit floor 100 every time and finish their sets super fast. Those groups are even mercing themselves out, for 10~15m per win.

[Camiie]

Just the other day I got invited to a group by a friend and we managed to get 2 80 wins out of 3 runs. On the one we didn't we timed out on 99 and were ported past 80 anyway. So yeah I see the big difference now with NNI. I'm glad to see it.

Considering the hardcore folks (by hook or by crook) have already had their run of the event, I don't see a problem letting the rest of us have some fun now. Isn't that SE's stated new strategy anyway? Make events hard at first and then ease up on them after the uber leet people get their "First Kids on the Block to Have this Stuff" status?

[Camiie]

Wasn't the answer to the OP question "yes?" I'm particularly happy with the rewards.


If I was going to complain about new Salvage, my complaints would be:

1) It's too easy.
Original Salvage was something that you and your 5 most skilled friends went and did 5 nights a week for a year. New Salvage is a disappointment on that front, with most zones being multi-box-able.

Considering the hell I had to go through to get my 75 pieces in the first place, I don't think I should have to go through the same sort of hell a second time for an upgrade. 99 salvage is simply an add-on to the original. I think people who are judging it as a new event aren't looking at it properly.

[Zagen]

It's harder to find 2 sch with capped enh magic for NNI than it is to find 3 random people for salvage.
You don't need capped enhancing magic on SCH... Heck you don't even need Embrava the whole run, I actually did a run with a SCH who didn't know he didn't have the spell and we still managed clear 60 and 80 bosses before timing out on 98, though I'd blame the 3x lamp order and 2x code lamps we got that run more so than only 1 Embrava.



Considering the hell I had to go through to get my 75 pieces in the first place, I don't think I should have to go through the same sort of hell a second time for an upgrade. 99 salvage is simply an add-on to the original. I think people who are judging it as a new event aren't looking at it properly.
I look at it 2 ways:
1) As an event for people who were nearly done with 75 events thus having most of Salvage 1 gear (if not all) to prevent from having to do 1 before 2 today.
2) Also for newer or returning players who hadn't conquered Salvage 1 now have to complete Salvage 1 before Salvage 2 because the +1s are the only gear worth making in most cases.

How else should I look at it?

[Arcon]

The difference between capped Embrava and zero skill Embrava is 6.5% Haste, 1 TP/tick Regain and 14 HP/tick Regen. The Haste difference gets reduced to 2% if people are hasted on top of Embrava. While it's nice, it's very far from vital, given how much fighting time there is compared to running around, clicking lamps, warping up and picking your nose time.

[Byrth]

I wish they had made old Salvage upgrade the easy-grind-for-gear instead of putting them in new Salvage. Magian trial it and put something like "Kill 15 bosses" on each armor piece and call it a day. Then people can get their "I can do this with my friends 3-man whenever I want!" fix.

Then they could put new Salvage gear in new Salvage and make it better / a more difficult event that I actually need 6 real players to do. They don't have to Legion-out on the difficulty, but it would have been nice to see an event that I can't essentially do solo. I had two friends deactivate because they saw new Salvage as yet another easy grind fest instead of the 6-man, difficult event that we hoped for.

So far in this thread there have been a few people asking for better rewards (which is unnecessary in my opinion, considering how good the upgraded pieces are) and a few people comparing these items to Neo-Nyzul (which is still a more difficult, 6-man event that actually requires party coordination instead of just time) Floor 100 rewards. You can't really have it both ways. The event should either be easy with minor-upgrade rewards (as it is) or difficult with large-upgrade rewards (like old Salvage / Neo-NI). If they had made this a harder event with impressive rewards, I'd be much more excited about it.

[Camiie]

I look at it 2 ways:
1) As an event for people who were nearly done with 75 events thus having most of Salvage 1 gear (if not all) to prevent from having to do 1 before 2 today.
2) Also for newer or returning players who hadn't conquered Salvage 1 now have to complete Salvage 1 before Salvage 2 because the +1s are the only gear worth making in most cases.

How else should I look at it?

Not as a sequel event, but as something tacked on to the original. Look at all of Salvage as a single event and then pass judgement on it.

[Zagen]

Not as a sequel event, but as something tacked on to the original. Look at all of Salvage as a single event and then pass judgement on it.
It isn't a single event because if you don't have the gear from 1 you must do it before being able to complete your +1 armor. If you could get Salvage 1 gear in 2 then I'd agree it works as a single event. While you might (I haven't tried to do both on the same day) be able to do them in a 200 minute span in the same day if you have enough points you're still doing 2 events not 1 as given drops are exclusive to each event.

[saevel]

I had two friends deactivate because they saw new Salvage as yet another easy grind fest instead of the 6-man, difficult event that we hoped for.

Good we're better off without them.


They don't have to Legion-out on the difficulty, but it would have been nice to see an event that I can't essentially do solo.

Not possible.

If six casual people can do the event, the one hardcore asshat can tri-box the event by min-maxing. This is essentially what we have now. Also the only zone your going to be tri-boxing with any level of effectiveness is Bhaflau Remnants II and maybe SSR (plans only). Zhayolm Remnants II and Arrapago Remnants II will eat you alive, you'd be forced to skip NM's or not kill off both MB's. Stop downplaying the difficulty cause you know some people who use secret ninja magic and AI assisted players to farm ~5 plans every night. The event's difficulty is set perfectly, just hard enough that casual players will have to develop skills and utilize strategy yet not so hard that it requires relics and emp's to successfully beat.

Actually thinking about it, how the hell do you get off thinking this event is "too easy"? Have you even fought Dvergr or Hydra and their HQ counterparts? Dvergr will do always TP move -> nuke and after 50% that TP move tends to be Necropurge / Necrobane followed by Fire V / Firaga III. If you don't have a MDT set on when that happens your going to die. A Fire V to the face when your maximum HP is ~700 isn't nice. Hydra is worse though, it triple attacks for 300~400 each and I've seen it kill a fully buffed MNK in 4s. The highest I've seen it hit for was a crit for 795 damage, thankfully I had on Dread Spikes and got that HP back, otherwise I have to ride full DT the entire fight. And our WHM still needs to occasionally use vert / viles. And where do you get off saying Khimaira Prideleader is "easy"? Not only does it have the chessy Fulmination but it also has the even cheesier Lithic Breath (weakness + damage). Those NM's are not impossible to beat but they do require the players have proper gear sets and coordinate a strategy. They need to be on the ball and actually know their job instead of being AI robots.

Your just pissed that there is no special super rare gear that you can walk around PJ in and brag about. Every piece of gear is accessible to every player provided they put in some effort to acquiring them. The event doesn't have the single most important thing for "elite" (http://www.lukesurl.com/archives/3354) players, exclusivity.

[Jaall]

After just doing another Arrapago Remnants II and our party of 6 eating 5, yes 5, fulminations and only just surviving due to having 2 rdm (1 was a back up mule just because we could)... I don't see how anyone can tri-box this unless they are only going for plans, in which case that's not maximising Salvage II's potential, so they have no right to comment or be used in an argument. That's my opinion.

[Byrth]

Oh okay, I guess I didn't get Skadi's Visor +1, Skadi's Bazubands +1, and Skadi's Chausses +1 by doing Arrapago II runs with DNC/DRK, WHM/THF, and BRD/BLM then. Finished killing Armored Chariot at 55 minutes one run where I got lucky on the starting chest. This includes all NMs along the Skadi path. If you stun Fulmination (which a BRD/BLM with Ajapamas II or a DNC with a MAcc build can do), the Khims are just a matter of casting Cure/Erase/Viruna over and over.

I started doing Bhaflau the other day and, as you say, it's perfectly doable with three characters. I'm even doing the Cerberuses on DNC/SAM and using Aeolian Edge to reduce his PDT. I timed out on my second run with Cerberus Seether at either 1 or 2%. First run I took JAs with my WHM accidentally and had to do the whole first floor without WSs (derp), but still killed all the NMs along the path up to the HQ Cerberus. This will only get faster/easier as I get more used to it and figure out what ratio of physical to magical WSs I can get away with on the Cerbs.

Zhayolm is also not an issue. I did it a few times to get Idi's Trousers with friends and think I'd have no problems multiboxing it. The Hydras are somewhat difficult and did one-shot me once (Tarutaru), but I can just sub NIN and play it defensively if I try to go solo. They are not very accurate and making the fight two minutes longer with Dragonfoe Mambo/Victory March isn't going to kill me as much as Nerve Gas -> DA would. I do not anticipate any real issues here, but I also don't foresee having to do this zone considering most (all?) of the 45s that didn't drop from Arrapago do drop from Bhaflau and I don't really want any of the Ares pieces.

SSR would probably be the most difficult to lowman. I've done it once with friends, but I was on Scholar and there was not a lot of information on the zone when we did it so we kind of meandered on the way to the bosses, both of which we popped pretty much purely out of luck. My impression is that it just takes too many kills and Fomor defense is too high for me to handle this zone as the only DD. I might have to partner up if I want Morrigan's Feet/body +1 because farming those plans in Bhaflau is not practical.



Still, one out of four zones requires more than two hands? Um, okay? I'm happy enough with it (as I said, I do the event and feel it is one of the best ones SE has released in a long time), but the feeling I got when I steamrolled Zhayolm and Arrapago on the release day wasn't joy as much as disappointment. 4 people for Zhayolm, 3 people for Arrapago. We popped and killed literally every NM and NQ/HQ bosses both runs with no information at all going in to it. "Oh look, a gear in a room of Lamia. Lets kill it!", "What's this chigoe doing here? It won't aggro!" etc. They might as well have put <KILL ME TO POP NMs> as some of the monsters' names.

When I think of Salvage, I think of Frogs being a mystery for over a year because no one can figure out how to force them to pop. I think of the first LAC strategy being 5 Rangers death zerging it. I don't think of a DRK, MNK, THF, and recently reactivated WHM having an optimally efficient run on release day with no prior information. I think of heated arguments over whether MNK + SAM is better than MNK + MNK as primary DDs for Salvage, whether Monk should be given weapon cell priority, etc. It was part puzzle, part min/maxing extravaganza.

Admittedly, when I think of Salvage I also think of 1 AM runs that never dropped anything, but I remember that I gladly did them anyway because it was fun being part of such a well-practiced team. I got a Macha's coat on my first Arrapago run and didn't get another Morrigan 35 for something like 8 months (and then it was head, the worst piece of the set). I didn't even care, though. Salvage was my justification for playing the rest of the game. There is no reason to min/max jobs if endgame could be done without min/maxed jobs. Currently Legion is the weak justification for min/maxing. If Salvage II had been as challenging as the original Salvage, it would have become the new justification and I wouldn't have to do Legion anymore.


Edit: Update-
On Run 3 (just now) I killed Cerberus Seether with 27 minutes remaining. This net me 6 plans (5 Ritualistic, 1 Tutelary), 113 Alexandrite, Neit's Cuffs/Crown, and was done without so-called "ninja techniques." I got good starting cells today (Body + AGI), but I bet it gets even faster in the future as I get more used to the zone. I'm finding that I can use a much higher ratio of normal WSs to Aeolian Edge against the Cerberuses than I initially did.

[Yenecol]

Your just pissed that there is no special super rare gear that you can walk around PJ in and brag about. Every piece of gear is accessible to every player provided they put in some effort to acquiring them. The event doesn't have the single most important thing for "elite" (http://www.lukesurl.com/archives/3354) players, exclusivity.

False. I have acquired the legendary skadi gloves+1 and beastmasters everywhere marvel at them for their awesome pet haste. I get to walk around with pride and have people check me in PJ. This is the one piece SE got right. But yes, it took tons of effort because so many other pieces they got wrong (making it hard to attract people to the event) and it feels exclusive to me since so many others are not going to bother with it. I see that denali (excuse me, THAUMAS) set everywhere but very few people sport skadi+1.

To get people for this event, I had to beg, plead, give away all the alexandrites, etc. I had one guy quit because 300k in alexandrite wasn't enough for him. Why would he waste 100 minutes to get that amount of gil when he could run a 30 minute NNI and get his cut of 10mil? (Yes, he is in one of those elite merc groups that spam NNI for other people). Fortunately, I found enough people willing to help but it was not easy. People seem to think it is easy to find people for this event but, unless you have good friends that help for the sake of helping, that is false too. That is why the other rewards should be better - to entice more people to do this fun event.

[detlef]

After just doing another Arrapago Remnants II and our party of 6 eating 5, yes 5, fulminations and only just surviving due to having 2 rdm (1 was a back up mule just because we could)... I don't see how anyone can tri-box this unless they are only going for plans, in which case that's not maximising Salvage II's potential, so they have no right to comment or be used in an argument. That's my opinion.It's possible to 3-man these zones, but you'll have better results with certain setups.

[Demon6324236]

One thing I honestly don't understand is that people are saying they are going with WHM or RDM, where are your SCHs? Regen, AoE Phalanx, Enspells, Storms, highly powerful cures for low costs, Regain, Embrava for the HQ... Really I find this event to be another wonderful place for SCH just like NNI was, however not just for Embrava, but actually playing the game and job.

I know this is a little off topic but I just wanted to point it out because unless I am missing something, SCH seems superior to WHM or RDM for this event in basically every way.

[Camiie]

It isn't a single event because if you don't have the gear from 1 you must do it before being able to complete your +1 armor. If you could get Salvage 1 gear in 2 then I'd agree it works as a single event. While you might (I haven't tried to do both on the same day) be able to do them in a 200 minute span in the same day if you have enough points you're still doing 2 events not 1 as given drops are exclusive to each event.

That's why Salvage is a single event IMO because you must do "1" to get anything worthwhile out of "2." The new zones are simply an addendum to the originals.


Your just pissed that there is no special super rare gear that you can walk around PJ in and brag about. Every piece of gear is accessible to every player provided they put in some effort to acquiring them. The event doesn't have the single most important thing for "elite" (http://www.lukesurl.com/archives/3354) players, exclusivity.

Yeah, not being a supposedly elite player myself, I'd prefer SE err on the side of too accessible or too obtainable than make stuff that's purposefully impossible to get. What's the point of making gear/events only for hardcores when they are A) A minor segment of the overall population and B) Prone to cheating their way to victory thus nullifying the supposed accomplishment.

[Zagen]

That's why Salvage is a single event IMO because you must do "1" to get anything worthwhile out of "2." The new zones are simply an addendum to the originals.
Kinda how a squeal extends a franchise, while still being it's own entity under said franchise... do you realize you just argued my initial point which you said didn't apply?

[Jaall]

Sorry, it might have seemed like I was saying you can't trio Arrapago, but you can I was just saying it's very difficult if you have to focus on 2 other characters. Probably possible if you're the type of person who uses hacks to get what they want and thus has the best gear possible, but then I don't really care much about them. I actually find it rather sad that people would want to be like that but that's a different matter. I have done Arrapago Remnants with 3 people easily, even when fulmination lands, but it's much safer and much more efficient to take more people and especially safer to have others in control of the characters.... as the game was intended.

[saevel]

It's possible to 3-man these zones, but you'll have better results with certain setups.

Definitely. I've three or four manned each zone, though we really don't need a fourth player. We're still refining our setup / strats for the individual zones. So far it's

WHM
THF
BLU or DRK
Maybe MNK

For Bfau I go BLU, SSR is kinda of a toss up, Saline Coat makes the boss much easier but my DRK's DT set has capped MDT and does more damage. Either way I'm bringing a stack of holy waters. Zhao is DRK with Twilight scyth and PDT sets otherwise Hydra will eat you alive. Arapago is definitely DRK, makes the boss a breeze.

Byrth go reread my post, I never said the zones were impossible only that they require skill and coordination to do. Three manning something is not the same as tri-boxing and you know it. You are not tri-boxing HQ hydra, not with that setup anyhow.

[detlef]

Probably possible if you're the type of person who uses hacks to get what they want and thus has the best gear possible, but then I don't really care much about them. I actually find it rather sad that people would want to be like that but that's a different matter. I have done Arrapago Remnants with 3 people easily, even when fulmination lands, but it's much safer and much more efficient to take more people and especially safer to have others in control of the characters.... as the game was intended.I can't figure out what your deal is. You've made quite a few head-scratching posts in this thread. You appear to be against multi-boxing. You appear to be anti-Nyzul (even though, as I stated in this thread, it's extremely accessible to anybody right now). You also stated that we should be doing Salvage for fun and not for drops.

I can't figure out what you're trying to argue. Are you anti-elitist, or are you just using Salvage as a way to complain about Nyzul? You don't like windower? I'm half expecting you to say that gear swapping is cheating.

[Asymptotic]

Byrth go reread my post, I never said the zones were impossible only that they require skill and coordination to do. Three manning something is not the same as tri-boxing and you know it. You are not tri-boxing HQ hydra, not with that setup anyhow.

1.) Byrth Tri-Boxes Salvage as DNC/WHM/BRD
2.) I've Tri-boxed Arrapago as DNC/SCH/THF (Did not skip any NMs)

There are plenty of reports of tri-boxing HQ Hydra with various setups (all of which include a BRD or SCH, iirc).

[Jaall]

I can't figure out what your deal is. You've made quite a few head-scratching posts in this thread. You appear to be against multi-boxing. You appear to be anti-Nyzul (even though, as I stated in this thread, it's extremely accessible to anybody right now). You also stated that we should be doing Salvage for fun and not for drops.

I can't figure out what you're trying to argue. Are you anti-elitist, or are you just using Salvage as a way to complain about Nyzul? You don't like windower? I'm half expecting you to say that gear swapping is cheating.

I'm anti elitist like a lot of people, I like nyzul so not sure why I should complain about it, but people seem to be comparing the 2 so I have to include it in what I'm saying. I like the idea of windower and have nothing against it, but I play on Xbox and actually where did you get the idea that I was against it?? I never mentioned anything about being against it? Gear swapping is cheating? Lol wow you really have misread a lot of what I've been saying.

Basically, if I really have to sum up for people (Which I've already done, if you had read through a few of my posts thoroughly) - Salvage II is easy enough for the gear to be worse than NNI, because that's where the comparison is. People are stuck in the past about salvage and think salvage II should be better than NI, even if it's easier. They still think the gear should be better even though it is a lot easier to obtain. My second point is, yes it takes a while to get but so did NNI when it was first released and people should remember Salvage II has only just been released, and SE have shown plans to make NQ gear drop rates better which imo will cut out a lot of the time needed in salvage I. Last point - people tri-boxing anything in this game doesn't annoy me, and if they can then congratulations, but I feel slightly sorry for them. I personally see any online game whether it's an MMO, FPS etc as a community game, and if they have to play by themselves and effectively cheat just to feel they are good enough, that's a little bit sad in my honest opinion. But like I said, I have nothing against people doing that if it's what they really want.

My posts have just been about making the point that Salvage II is not a waste of time like everyones been saying, and it's very clear to see that if anyone goes and "hangs out" near the permit NPC. It's pretty much packed at any time of day and people are always running around alzadaal. And the gear itself is pretty good for what its meant to be. There are a few pieces that aren't as great, I admit, but nobodies forcing anyone to get them, or even do Salvage for that matter. And the whole thing about not finding people - I never seem to have much trouble finding 3 other willing people, even in JP primetime. I think this post is just full of people butthurt because SE decided so switch the difficulty of Salvage with Nyzul. Salvage is still as fun as it used to be, maybe even more so because it doesn't take a year to finish 1 piece.

Does that sum up enough of what I've been saying for you?

[detlef]

I'm anti elitist like a lot of people, I like nyzul so not sure why I should complain about it, but people seem to be comparing the 2 so I have to include it in what I'm saying. I like the idea of windower and have nothing against it, but I play on Xbox and actually where did you get the idea that I was against it?? I never mentioned anything about being against it? Gear swapping is cheating? Lol wow you really have misread a lot of what I've been saying.


Probably possible if you're the type of person who uses hacks to get what they want and thus has the best gear possible, but then I don't really care much about them. I actually find it rather sad that people would want to be like that but that's a different matter. I have done Arrapago Remnants with 3 people easily, even when fulmination lands, but it's much safer and much more efficient to take more people and especially safer to have others in control of the characters.... as the game was intended.Okay well, this quote sure makes you sounds like a bitter console player who thinks you can’t win Nyzul without using hacks. I was joking about the gear swapping, but if you search for a poster named Rosina you might understand.


Basically, if I really have to sum up for people (Which I've already done, if you had read through a few of my posts thoroughly) - Salvage II is easy enough for the gear to be worse than NNI, because that's where the comparison is. People are stuck in the past about salvage and think salvage II should be better than NI, even if it's easier. They still think the gear should be better even though it is a lot easier to obtain. My second point is, yes it takes a while to get but so did NNI when it was first released and people should remember Salvage II has only just been released, and SE have shown plans to make NQ gear drop rates better which imo will cut out a lot of the time needed in salvage I. Last point - people tri-boxing anything in this game doesn't annoy me, and if they can then congratulations, but I feel slightly sorry for them. I personally see any online game whether it's an MMO, FPS etc as a community game, and if they have to play by themselves and effectively cheat just to feel they are good enough, that's a little bit sad in my honest opinion. But like I said, I have nothing against people doing that if it's what they really want.

I actually read every one of your posts. I think Salvage is straightforward and easy enough to actually do, but is too much of a grind for the reward. Especially people play “as the game was intended” with 3-4 other people as you said. If you run with 3 other people and split an average of 8 plans per run (and you probably agree that this is very much on the high end), that’s 25 runs for a body +1 piece. Which puts you at 4 months to finish a +1 set, assuming you go every single night, assuming your group does exactly the runs that everybody needs. It also assumes good luck with 45s and already completed base pieces. I’ve made my peace with the quality of the gear. I just think that for what we’re getting, the grind is a bit extreme. Not only that, but if you are focusing on farming the same plans, it gets very repetitive.

Personally I generally duo with a friend and occasionally bring a third person, but I envy the people who do 3-box it.


My posts have just been about making the point that Salvage II is not a waste of time like everyones been saying, and it's very clear to see that if anyone goes and "hangs out" near the permit NPC. It's pretty much packed at any time of day and people are always running around alzadaal. And the gear itself is pretty good for what its meant to be. There are a few pieces that aren't as great, I admit, but nobodies forcing anyone to get them, or even do Salvage for that matter. And the whole thing about not finding people - I never seem to have much trouble finding 3 other willing people, even in JP primetime. I think this post is just full of people butthurt because SE decided so switch the difficulty of Salvage with Nyzul. Salvage is still as fun as it used to be, maybe even more so because it doesn't take a year to finish 1 piece.It’s not a waste of time. The reward/effort ratio is probably just a little lower than people were expecting or would be satisfied with. I also think there are a lot of people who aren't going to give it a chance because they don't have the base Salvage pieces to upgrade.

[Monchat]

Zhayolm Remnants II and Arrapago Remnants II will eat you alive, you'd be forced to skip NM's or not kill off both MB's.

what the hell? Arrapago is the easiest and fastest zone. Why would arrapago eat you alive? Idk about zhayolm ive yet to do it.. And arrap bosses is not even worth being called a boss, the NQ has nothing especially damahing, the HQ has ONE bad move thats easilly dealt with.



A Have you even fought Dvergr or Hydra and their HQ counterparts? Dvergr will do always TP move -> nuke and after 50% that TP move tends to be Necropurge / Necrobane followed by Fire V / Firaga III. If you don't have a MDT set on when that happens your going to die.

no need for MDT. Actually it casts so fast that you'd had to full time MDT which is stupid. WHM's cureskin are that overpowered, use cure spam love them. I only use 1500 MP typically on that boss. Sure I had trouble with a RDM healer on that boss, I only had to make a fresh WHM, thats it.



A Fire V to the face when your maximum HP is ~700 isn't nice.

fire 5 does ~1200 and less with cureskin. My max HP while curse is 1000. Learn to merit HP, and MNK. And it will not immediately use a tier V after necrobane, there is 2-3 second delay, more than enough to cursna and cure.



And where do you get off saying Khimaira Prideleader is "easy"? Not only does it have the chessy Fulmination but it also has the even cheesier Lithic Breath (weakness + damage). Those NM's are not impossible to beat but they do require the players have proper gear sets and coordinate a strategy. They need to be on the ball and actually know their job instead of being AI robots.

You dont need that since i can 2-box them not only on my main char (best geared MNK), but also on my gimp MNK (lv 90 cap gear). A NM that can be done by DD+WHM is abbysea-tier of easyness. Has a bad move? ok let me pull out my infinite-MP-CureV-spam-WHM-card. WHM, the only really overpowered job in today's ffxi.

[Jaall]

I agree with you that it's a grind compared to todays endgame events, but that's only because people have made it that way. It's nowhere near a grind in comparison to 75 days so peoples complaints in that respect are a little invalid. People seem to compare it to 2 things, NNI and old salvage. Salvage II rests very nicely in the middle of the 2. Slight grind for gear that make nice additions to, but not as good as NNI gear, but also nowhere near as hard as NNI.

And FYI I have FFXI on both pc and xbox, and prefer playing it on 360. It's a personal choice so I'm really not a "bitter console player" at all. Even if I had access to hacks etc which you could say I do, as does every other PC player, I wouldn't use them because that's not how I like to play my games. There's much more satisfaction from earning what you use. And I don't have anything against those who do use cheats and hacks, but that doesn't mean I don't understand why they would want to. Like I mentioned before, it eludes me a little, that's all.

[Zhronne]

Good we're better off without them.
Not possible.

If six casual people can do the event, the one hardcore asshat can tri-box the event by min-maxing.
I concur, but maybe people were expecting the kind of event that requires you more than a pt of casuals and 5-6 good players to be completed, with slightly better rewards too, maybe.

For instance having the second alternative set share the basic set bonus and being used in synergy with it would have been a fantastic idea opening up to a wide range of possibilities for players.
Perhaps too many maybe?

Dunno, in the end I can't complain, not even doing Salvo II atm, got no friends interested and don't really want to go with random people I don't know.

[Afania]

Still, one out of four zones requires more than two hands? Um, okay? I'm happy enough with it (as I said, I do the event and feel it is one of the best ones SE has released in a long time), but the feeling I got when I steamrolled Zhayolm and Arrapago on the release day wasn't joy as much as disappointment. 4 people for Zhayolm, 3 people for Arrapago. We popped and killed literally every NM and NQ/HQ bosses both runs with no information at all going in to it. "Oh look, a gear in a room of Lamia. Lets kill it!", "What's this chigoe doing here? It won't aggro!" etc. They might as well have put <KILL ME TO POP NMs> as some of the monsters' names.

When I think of Salvage, I think of Frogs being a mystery for over a year because no one can figure out how to force them to pop. I think of the first LAC strategy being 5 Rangers death zerging it. I don't think of a DRK, MNK, THF, and recently reactivated WHM having an optimally efficient run on release day with no prior information. I think of heated arguments over whether MNK + SAM is better than MNK + MNK as primary DDs for Salvage, whether Monk should be given weapon cell priority, etc. It was part puzzle, part min/maxing extravaganza.

There is no reason to min/max jobs if endgame could be done without min/maxed jobs. Currently Legion is the weak justification for min/maxing. If Salvage II had been as challenging as the original Salvage, it would have become the new justification and I wouldn't have to do Legion anymore.


If endgame can only be done with min/maxing jobs, then I will probably never clear salvage, the amount of ppl that I know of tried to min/max jobs are very, very few. And I have quite a large connection. Min/maxing jobs shouldn't be a "requirement" to do the event, rather to provide "advantage". Those who min/max jobs often don't play with casual players either, so it's unlikely I can do salvage2 with elite players to begin with.

The fact that you can tri-box salvage2 is the advantage you got by min-maxing jobs, it's not something everyone can do. Once I tried to do AR2 with 4 casual players with average gears, and we failed to kill armored chariot fast enough to pop HQ. Another time I do with MNK double mage setup for AR2 and MNK takes forever to kill the NM, sometimes there are WHM run out of MP too.

Any decent player actively participate in EGLS with well geared melee/mage jobs and multiple gear set can probably trio box and get clear. But as a casual player in social LS, the difficulty is just fine. In fact recently I just started to set gear requirement for anyone want to come to salvage2 or else ppl with no AF3+2 wanted to come and just made it harder. And I haven't set any gear requirement for any event since Prov/B.rex(before 3rd atmacite/weakened item)/legion.

Min-maxing jobs as a requirement also often means X job only.

I understand where the frustration came from though, you spent the time to min/max and it's not required to get the event done. However I think ppl min/max jobs are mostly do it for fun/sense of accomplishment to perform better, and it shouldn't be hit or miss for anyone else that doesn't min/max jobs.

[Zhronne]

The biggest issue I can see for Salvage 2 is the small amount of plans and the limited variety you can get in each run.
The effort/reward ratio is already not as good as other events when you min/max, and it drops to seriously low level if you go with 6 people, which is probably a likely amount for casual player.

It would require a lot of time (i.e. effort) to complete those pieces, while those same people can probably convey the same effort in other events and get better rewards or equal rewards with less effort.
Do you see what I mean?

It's obvious and righteous that "elite" players are able to perform better, do things better and complete stuff earlier. It would be wrong if it were otherwise to be honest. But at the same time you, as a developer, need to carefully balance an event so it doesn't get too fast for elites, but not too slow either for all the others.
I mean, from this perspective it's almost like SE is suggesting you to duo/trio box Salvage on your own so that you can complete your gear faster and get more alex, but in an event where you need a minimum of 3 people up to a maximum of 18 that sounds like a real paradox.

This is the kind of situation where individual drops spawning for each single player instead than on the treasure pool would have been convenient.
That, in addition to a maximum number of people of 6.
That way it would have promoted party play instead of leading people over duo/trio boxing so they can make the amount of plans they get at least decent.

[Byrth]

If Salvage II was an event that I could trio with a real BRD and WHM, I would be very pleased with it. The problem is that I can clear it with myself playing DNC, BRD, and WHM at the same time. This means that the event does not require very skilled support or uncoordinated movements. If it was a more difficult event and required a little more strategy, maybe something as foreign and strange as "pulling" (or anything else that requires more than me parking my mules at 20'+ and hitting my macros while I aggro and then kill monsters on DNC) then I would be happy to have to take other people along and wouldn't care if I only had one Skadi +1 piece complete instead of three at this point. The problem is that it doesn't require even that much skill and that FFXI punishes bringing more people than you need.

I have no delusions about my tri-boxing ability. My mules perform much worse than a real BRD or a real WHM and, when I'm using them, my performance on DNC suffers too. I don't enjoy multiboxing and find it incredibly frustrating (especially when things are going poorly/I hit the wrong macro because I'm on the wrong character/etc.) Still, why should I bother two friends to trio an event with me and take a third of their drops when the event doesn't need that many hands?

For instance, I know that MNK + WHM can duo Arrapago II easily (because friends do it). It is kinder of me to DC them in and then tribox my own run than it would be for me to come along and "help" them out when I'm not needed. That's just how it shakes out. Other than Voidwatch, FFXI only penalizes bringing more people than are needed to do an event.


Also, min-maxing obviously doesn't mean X-job only or I wouldn't be able to clear these zones using a Tarutaru DNC as the only DD. As far as I can see, one well-geared DD (or two less well-geared DDs), one support job (like BRD or COR), and one healer (WHM, SCH, or RDM) is about all that should be necessary to clear any zone comfortably almost regardless of your skill level. That said, non-traditional setups can work too. I know that at least one person has been posting huge Magic Burst BP pictures on BG lately against the Cerberus and Hydra bosses, which means he's going to Salvage on Summoner. Using the correct strategy for each zone will ensure you get all the way through as long as you bring enough damage and support. Even if your execution isn't perfect the first time, give it a few tries and it'll get better.

[detlef]

I completely agree with the last few posts. Salvage has always been about bringing as few people as possible because of the limited cells and very low drop rates. And Neo-Salvage is still like that because of the sheer amount of plans you need to farm up to complete a given piece. It really does come to down to low-manning it or finishing only a handful of pieces in a year. It's one thing for a few players to get together every night and progress. But it's very unfriendly for casuals who might be able to set up a group once a week.

[Zhronne]

I agree with the low numbers etc, but when you solo/duo/triobox inside Salvo that's hardly what I would call "as intended".
Not tryin to blame people who do it, I'd do it too if I had access to a third toon.
Just saying that players *rightfully* circumvein things to balance something that isn't so balanced to begin with, or you wouldn't feel the need to do that.

That was my point, and FFXI is sadly full of stuff like that.

[detlef]

It's absolutely not as SE intended. SE seems to have some things in mind to curtail the multi-box mentality, including personal chests in VW, the astrarium system in Nyzul, and more research notes for larger groups in Meebles. In these events, you are encouraged to bring more people rather than go with fewer (although Meeble drop rates are stupidly low on some things). Salvage is more like Abyssea in that regard in that you will generally want to go bring as few people as possible.

[Yenecol]

Salvage is more like Abyssea in that regard in that you will generally want to go bring as few people as possible.On that note, why not just let us enter solo? I can beg people to come when I want an actual kill for gear. But, once I have a piece of gear, why should I have to drag people that don't even want to do Salvage along? Sure, I guess I could annoy them to do the D/C trick but why should I even have to do that? Allow me to take my bst in solo to grind the stupid plans - then I wouldn't have to be complaining about the gear being too subpar to attract others to play.

[Kincard]

I'm surprised people are still saying the gear is mediocre or whatever. That appeared the be the case upon first glance but a great number of the pieces increased in value when it was discovered that there are partial set bonuses (decently large ones at that).

[Jaall]

The gears in no way mediocre if used in the correct way. It just takes a bit of thought and planning to make the best of each piece and as you say, the set bonuses are pretty decent. Also why not do as i'm sure somebody would have mentioned here, but I cant be bothered to read through 18 pages! Make plans bazaar-able. This would mean that all you really have to worry about is getting the 45 piece, and the nq salvage piece and would give incentive for people to do salvage. If people can make money from plans as well as the alexandrite, it might provide a nice alternative to dyna, and maybe relieve overcrowding there too as salvage is a lot more fun and interesting than dyna.

[Zagen]

I'm surprised people are still saying the gear is mediocre or whatever. That appeared the be the case upon first glance but a great number of the pieces increased in value when it was discovered that there are partial set bonuses (decently large ones at that).
Sorry that's a statement depends highly on the jobs a person plays.

Edit: Don't get me wrong a few jobs definitely got some options for gear changes...

[Kincard]

Sorry that's a statement depends highly on the jobs a person plays.

Edit: Don't get me wrong a few jobs definitely got some options for gear changes...

You could make the same argument for gear from pretty much every event in the game aside from Abyssea (since the mainstay gear was JSE and thus didn't have to be "flexible" gear by design). For example, SMN, BRD, and WHM got relatively little from NNI. Trews are obvious, and Cuffs for SMN, but other than that they have no use for a nuke-heavy set like Nares (well unless you really like banishing stuff).

My only point is that saying that the gear should be upgraded doesn't make a lot of sense at this point simply because it doesn't satisfy the desires for your specific job, because then you'd have to point that out for basically every event in the game (again aside from Abyssea).

[Zhronne]

On that note, why not just let us enter solo?
Because at SE they are schyzo and can't make up their minds.
On one side they say we need to go in there with a party and it's an event thought for small groups (and they put a minimum 3 people limit)
Then they make the event so that it's way more efficient for someone to solo.
And of course people start to duo/tribox it and SE does absolutely nothing to find back some coherence in their events, they just put two hands in front of their eyes and pretend it's not happening.

It's their typical attitude, can find it in on so many things.



On a more serious note, they said they're not making the event available for Soloers because they are afraid the infrastructure that runs Salvo wouldn't hold it.
You could say "But what does it matter? People go there anyway duo/triboxing or using DC trick!" yes, and they know it of course, but the % of people who can solo in salvo atm is still very low compared to the % of people who would do it were they to make it possible to enter solo.
Heh... despite it being very unfair it also has some sort of coherence I guess.

[detlef]

You could make the same argument for gear from pretty much every event in the game aside from Abyssea (since the mainstay gear was JSE and thus didn't have to be "flexible" gear by design). For example, SMN, BRD, and WHM got relatively little from NNI. Trews are obvious, and Cuffs for SMN, but other than that they have no use for a nuke-heavy set like Nares (well unless you really like banishing stuff).

My only point is that saying that the gear should be upgraded doesn't make a lot of sense at this point simply because it doesn't satisfy the desires for your specific job, because then you'd have to point that out for basically every event in the game (again aside from Abyssea).The Ares set is pretty underwhelming. If you have to say "it's not that bad" to defend it, then it might just be that bad. I will not argue that the other sets don't have some things going for them.

As far as Nyzul goes, for BRD, Nares head, legs, and feet offer best in slot fast cast, cure potency/refresh, and magic accuracy, respectively. I'm not entirely sure how the macc of the body, hands, and feet compare to other options for WHM, but those could be best in slot too. And of course, the head and legs are useful for obvious reasons.

[Asymptotic]

The Ares set is pretty underwhelming. If you have to say "it's not that bad" to defend it, then it might just be that bad. I will not argue that the other sets don't have some things going for them.


3/5 of the Ares pieces are used in optimal (not second-choice) sets for WAR, which is like, you know man, a relevant job. How is that underwhelming?

[Afania]

I completely agree with the last few posts. Salvage has always been about bringing as few people as possible because of the limited cells and very low drop rates. And Neo-Salvage is still like that because of the sheer amount of plans you need to farm up to complete a given piece. It really does come to down to low-manning it or finishing only a handful of pieces in a year. It's one thing for a few players to get together every night and progress. But it's very unfriendly for casuals who might be able to set up a group once a week.

So that's the challenge, you get more reward by doing the event with less ppl(thus harder). Meeble is exactly the opposite, you bring more ppl for better reward, but I find it's kinda lame to bring 6 ppl for the sake of more points and most pt members don't do much contribution when pt size way bigger than necessary.




3/5 of the Ares pieces are used in optimal (not second-choice) sets for WAR, which is like, you know man, a relevant job. How is that underwhelming?

Ppl got spoiled with NNI/Abyssea gears for easy progress and game breaking stats, now if new gears don't have game breaking stat on it you will see complains.

I still don't understand why everyone and their mother said legion gears sucked when HQ abj are some of the most elite gears in this game atm.

[Asymptotic]

I still don't understand why everyone and their mother said legion gears sucked when HQ abj are some of the most elite gears in this game atm.

60% of HQ Hexed comes from VW, not Legion.

Of the Legion-specific pieces:

Huginn Gambieras: Elite upgrade for almost all jobs that can wear them
Huginn Coronet: I don't think this is good for anything, or if it is it's not good for anything anyone cares about

Iaso Mitra: Upgrade, but people have difficulty getting excited about gear for healers
Iaso Feet: See above

Khepri Bonnet: Situational upgrade for TP sets, best WS hat for some WS
Khepri Feet: ?_?

Spurrina Coif: More idle refresh! For jobs that really don't care about more refresh.
Spurrina Nails: If these are good for anything it's not anything anyone cares about.

Tenryu Somen +1: I don't think this is used for anything on any of the jobs that can wear it. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Tenryu Sune Ate +1: See above.

Legion also has Duplus / Wrathwing which are pretty minor upgrades (if Wrathwing is relevant anymore, I don't know) and a bunch of min-max stuff for your mages, which tends to fall pretty low on the priority list.

Obviously the augment item is legion specific but those are really common.

Salvage 2 is something you, your friend, and a mule can 2-box with average gear once a day for 60 minutes, take home 50 alexandrite a piece, and each finish a piece of gear every 10 runs with visible progress on the way. Legion requires a lot of people with above above average gear, specific setups, an entry fee, solid strategy, and has low drop rates with no visible progress on anything except for the point items which aren't anything to write home about for the most part.

[Asymptotic]

Oh, and to further skew the effort-reward ratio out of Legion's favor, there's the immense rarity and price tag attached to most hexed -1 pieces.

[Jaall]

Ares pieces are very good when used with the right gear in other slots. Also on top of the normal stats seen on each piece, you get the double attack+ set bonus which is very good to have. All it takes is some research and understanding to make them stand out and work very well.

[Zagen]

3/5 of the Ares pieces are used in optimal (not second-choice) sets for WAR, which is like, you know man, a relevant job. How is that underwhelming?

How about the other jobs on it?
1/5 DRK (for certain builds)
0/5 DRG (maybe 1/5 for certain builds)
0/5 PLD (honestly not sure here as all PLD does atm is hold mobs or kite them in my experiences)

Similar comparisons can be made for the other sets with the exception of Usukane which is almost always 3/5 good for the jobs on it.

[Jaall]

How about the other jobs on it?
1/5 DRK (For certain builds, Definitely a "relevant" job)
0/5 DRG
0/5 PLD (Honestly not sure here as all PLD does atm is hold mobs or kite them in my experiences)

Sorry but 2/5 DRG* at least depending on what other gear you use, same would go for DRK. Also PLD can use a few of the new set pieces.

Edit - You also seem to be forgetting Ares Cuirass +1 has hp and mp +5% str+16 vit+16 refresh and regen 2/tic, and to add to that att+6%. That's at least 1 piece thats great for pld depending on whats used with it.

[Asymptotic]

I'm almost 100% sure DRK and DRG can use at least one of the pieces, possibly 2.

Let's look at the other sets:

Skadi+1:

4/5 DNC (Possibly 5 with new embrava, I'm not sure)
BST: at least 2/5, possibly more, but I'm not familiar enough with BST's options to evaluate on the floor
THF: 4/5 (They can use Fajin, but Skadi+1 is better because storable)
RNG: Dunno, but they Sigyn is used in some LS stuff.
COR: 3/5* (*Melee builds only) + Sigyn

Marduk +1:

WHM: At least 2 pieces are definitely "useful," others are provisionally useful. Head is close second-best option if you don't have access to Iaso Mitra.
BRD: 5/5
SMN: At least 2 pieces are definitely useful, the others look useful but I'm really not too keen on SMN to evaluate the others versus available options.

Morrigan +1:

BLU: Unsure/5, but BLU didn't really expect to get much out of Morrigan in the first place. Probably 2/5.
RDM: Unsure on # of pieces, but some combination of Morrigan+1 is optimal for nuking.
BLM: See RDM.
SCH: See RDM.

Yeah not seeing the uselessness of this gear. Every job will not make use of every piece of armor released for it. This is how things have always been.

[Zagen]

Sorry but 2/5 DRG* at least depending on what other gear you use, same would go for DRK. Also PLD can use a few of the new set pieces.
Sorry I don't see many DRGs and the few I do aren't looking at ares' besides the legs for certain builds. Which is why I edited it to "maybe 1/5".

As to DRK the only serious builds I've seen using anything other than Ares' Flanchard +1 was a Liberator AM3 set with hands which I'm not even sure they beat Phorcys Mitts.


Edit - You also seem to be forgetting Ares Cuirass +1 has hp and mp +5% str+16 vit+16 refresh and regen 2/tic, and to add to that att+6%. That's at least 1 piece thats great for pld depending on whats used with it.
You mean as an idle piece when you're not getting hit or nuked? Only applications for a PLD that I see or use is for holding monster (PDT here) or kiting (PDT/MDT depending on the monster)

[SpankWustler]

I'm surprised people are still saying the gear is mediocre or whatever. That appeared the be the case upon first glance but a great number of the pieces increased in value when it was discovered that there are partial set bonuses (decently large ones at that).

Those partial set bonuses make the much higher requirements for the +1 pieces compared to the alternative-set pieces actually make sense, too.

[Jaall]

Actually I wasn't meaning the legs, and in fact I don't even want the legs because that doesn't work with my current tp set, but as you've clearly pointed out it does work with certain sets - proving my point. These new salvage sets aren't designed to be used as one big happy set, nothing SE introduces works like that anymore, they're meant to be used in conjunction with other sets to give the stats you need and improve your character. If you go for every piece you're doing it wrong unless you build 2-4 different sets and can use all 5 pieces in different sets, but I'm unsure where that would apply. It would with phorcys, legs + head in tp set, body and hands in ws, switch a few pieces in and out as and where you need haste and where you'd need store tp. Feet are good for -PDT, but not all the salvage sets were designed with that in mind.

[Zagen]

4/5 DNC (Possibly 5 with new embrava, I'm not sure)
Outside of Salvage and NNI I don't see DNC. Also I generally only see 2/5 or 3/5 builds. I'm not sure how losing regain or the haste going from 33% > 25% would make 5/5 appealing.


BST: at least 2/5, possibly more, but I'm not familiar enough with BST's options to evaluate on the floor
BST is 1/5 if you want to max your pet's haste but since the relevant event for BST is Dynamis and a 0 hasted pet can already tear up monsters too fast sometimes this is a preference argument. I've seen a few builds going with 2/5 in different slot mix ups with the hands but haven't bothered really looking into them as well BST is Dynamis relevant...


THF: 4/5 (They can use Fajin, but Skadi+1 is better because storable)
Thief's Knife, Ass. Kote +2, Raider's Feet +2 is all a THF needs... Okay SE's logic out of the way I have yet to see builds using Skadi for THF though I'd guess they're probably going to be 2/5 or 3/5 at most.


RNG: Dunno, but they Sigyn is used in some LS stuff.
COR: 3/5* (*Melee builds only) + Sigyn
For RNG in what setups? Curious as I've seen nothing or heard the few RNGs I know drooling over Skadi or Sigyn. Also Melee COR you say?


WHM: At least 2 pieces are definitely "useful," others are provisionally useful. Head is close second-best option if you don't have access to Iaso Mitra..
Definitely not in Cure Potency builds. Boosted Regen is cool if you're not with a SCH. The only piece I can see as appealing is the head for Divine Skill but then how many WHMs worry about that?


BRD: 5/5
Why? Sentinel is the only song they don't cap skill wise naked at which point only 2/5 apply. Song Casting Time caps were already reachable, if I'm mistaken then 1/5 for that which just happens to be 1 of the 2 from the skill options so still 2/5.


SMN: At least 2 pieces are definitely useful, the others look useful but I'm really not too keen on SMN to evaluate the others versus available options.
3/5 for Skill maximizing for Perfect Defense if you need that. Though there is the question of how much does the +2 from legs/feet compared to available options actually do meaning it might be 1/5.


BLU: Unsure/5, but BLU didn't really expect to get much out of Morrigan in the first place. Probably 2/5.
3/5 for Requiescat. 1/5 for Sanguine Blade and nukes. That said I don't requiescat much when I'm on BLU and the only time I'm nuking is Whisker farming which I was able to 1 shot since 95 cap.


RDM: Unsure on # of pieces, but some combination of Morrigan+1 is optimal for nuking
What's a RDM?


BLM: See RDM.
SCH: See RDM.
I haven't ever been serious about BLM and my SCH isn't much of a nuker but only the Body and maybe Feet for non weathered nukes scream out at me as being worth it for either of them so 1/5 maybe 2/5


tl:dr
Skadi 1 maybe 2 jobs at 4/5 the rest at 0-3/5 at best.
Marduk 1 job at 3/5 and that's only for Perfect Defense...
Morrigan's 1 job at 3/5 and that's only for 1 WS...

Now I see why everyone wants to do Salvage 2...

Edit: Factoring in the movement speed from Skadi feet into my numbers.

[Byrth]

Head/Hands/Legs are part of DNC's best TP set at the moment for Haste-uncapped situations. Feet have the obvious advantage of letting your run around faster. I've entertained the thought of Skadi body/head as parts of an Evisceration set, but I put it in the spreadsheet yet.

[Asymptotic]

Regarding Marduk:

Marduk Body is the best fast cast body available, and will be used accordingly. Set bonus can be used in conjunction with another slot that doesn't currently have fast cast, or in the case of BRD, combined with the hands for cast time and song spellcasting. You can currently cap song spellcasting time with Minstrel's Ring only. Using Marduk +1 you can hit 76% without using Minstrel's Ring.

I may have been overzealous with the skill on BRD; regardless, 3/5 are still useful.

The current optimal solace cure set on WHM uses Iaso Mitra, for which Marduk+1 is 2nd best and most people don't have Iaso Mitra.

Regarding Morrigan

It's hard to get excited over nuking because yeah, but I'm pretty sure at least with current setups Body + Feet is optimal. Still, there are enough people fanatical about their mage jobs (and people like me who obtain gear defensively for future use) to mention this set as having useful pieces.

Regarding Skadi +1

BST will obviously use the body when dual wielding, and probably the hands at least. I don't know/care enough about BST to evaluate it further. Also, +18% movement speed (storable) is useful for every job on the set. Current optimal general use DNC TP build is 3/5 Skadi+1 regardless of weapon. Current THF optimal builds vary slightly depending on buffs. If Boost-STR, it's 3/5 Skadi+1 and Sigyn Feet (also from N-Salvage). Without Boost-STR, it's 2/5 Skadi+1 (use Thaumas Legs) and Sigyn Feet.

Really, you could probably check the last few pages of the first 3 threads in any given job forum on FFXIAH and you'll find optimal builds containing at least one Neo-Salvage piece.

[Yenecol]

Thief's Knife, Ass. Kote +2, Raider's Feet +2 is all a THF needs... Okay SE's logic out of the way I have yet to see builds using Skadi for THF though I'd guess they're probably going to be 2/5 or 3/5 at most.


You are correct about thief. Thus far I am using the one piece I got - skadi gloves+1. I have a twashtar/TP bonus dagger combo and my current TP set consists of the ocelomeh+1/toci set, skadi gloves+1, and the athos leg/feet set. I also use your pretty standard brutal earring/suppa combo for earrings, rajas/epona's for rings, and atheling mantle/twilight for back/waist. This is decent enough and I have capped haste using a haste 1 necklace, but what many thieves are doing these days is using thaumas body, hands, and legs combined with raider's hat+2 and the assassin's feet+2. What this gives you is capped haste along with tons of multiple hit bonuses. Just add up the triple attack bonus alone and you'll see why this is the preferred method of TPing. What I could possibly do as an alternative would be raider's hat+2 (haste 6), thaumus (haste 4), skadi gloves+1 (haste 4 and this piece is superior to brego), skadi legs+1 (haste 6 which is not the English description) and the assassin's feet+2 (no haste, used for the triple attack). With the twilight belt (haste 7), I have capped haste. I see no way to avoid the thaumas body - haste 4 with double attack, triple attack, and quad attack has no equal. So yes, as thief, I can see myself using 3 pieces at most.

I could in theory use a sigyn visor instead of the raider's+2 hat, but why would I build it if I already have a raider's+2 which is triple attack+3 instead of sigyn's triple attack+2? I guess you could do this if you want more attack and subtle blow but then you sacrifice triple attack.

[detlef]

The only Marduk piece that might not be useful for BRD is the feet, and even it might have a place if you have the other 4 pieces for the set bonus. Might. I think. Well we'll see. Actually no probably not.

Otherwise, the other 4 pieces all have a place, as do 3/5 of the Nabu set for the min-maxer.

Marduk +1
Head: Debuffing (although I'd probably opt for Shedir for certain things)
Body: Fast Cast, Idle, Stoneskin
Hands: Idle, -SST
Legs: Buff, possibly cure potency depending on other slots
Feet: Eh

Nabu

Hands: Cure potency depending on other slots
Legs: Cure precast
Feet: Horde Lullaby

I'm still looking at Ares and I haven't figured out how to fit any of the pieces into my DRG builds other than the body as an idle piece. I've pretty much been ignoring it and focusing on Marduk since the event was released.

[Metaking]

well for Morrigan on blu you would be looking at body -> helm (useless without having set effect from body first) -> boots (marginal upgrade from af3+2 boot, when burst affinity is down) for most common blu nukeing should be especially impressive for dark orb and grudge, sanguine blade should also get rather large boost off anything else a blu would be using in those slots for req would probly drop the boots for thamus seance lets face it, you need all the attack you can get on that weapon skill.

[Jaall]

I kinda gave up playing the game to be the best a few years ago, when I realised I'll never ever be the best, more now to look good and have fun while playing. But on that note I have a particular set that I've planned and working on getting that gives me a 5 hit build on DRG, capped haste and a lot of att+, using 2 ares+1 piece, kers cuirass and the rest Phorcys. And on top of actually achieving that it looks awesome, so suits me completely! it really depends on the type of player you are and what your set at the moment is. Mine was heavily geared towards the looking good aspect in the first place as well as having "the good stuff" so I had a lot of room to chop and change and come up with ways to have both. Salvage II just happens to allow me to have both. I think there are a lot of players who do exactly the same as me (play to have a nice looking character) and salvage really does add that bonus. And yes Phorcys looks ok, but c'mon, Ares looks amazing!! You can slate me all you like for playing this way and yea I'll never be the best but then nobody ever will be unless you spend thousands on RMT and buy every relic etc, so I'm happy having a good looking character that can do almost as good!

[saevel]

well for Morrigan on blu you would be looking at body -> helm (useless without having set effect from body first) -> boots (marginal upgrade from af3+2 boot, when burst affinity is down) for most common blu nukeing should be especially impressive for dark orb and grudge, sanguine blade should also get rather large boost off anything else a blu would be using in those slots for req would probly drop the boots for thamus seance lets face it, you need all the attack you can get on that weapon skill.

Some of Morrigans + 1 is amazing for Sang Blade and Req. Body / Head / Feet / Legs look to be best in-slot for Sang, with Body / Head / Legs for Req.

Legs

10 STR (2.5 fSTR) (5 Attack)
10 MND (8.5 WSC)

vs

9 STR (2.25 fSTR) (4.5 Attack)
14 Attack
14 Accuracy

So really 8.5 WSC vs 14.5 Attack, the accuracy is kind of a toss up as you should have MORE then enough acc from other sources like Gorget / Belt / Aggressor and Morri body / head.

[detlef]

But on that note I have a particular set that I've planned and working on getting that gives me a 5 hit build on DRG, capped haste and a lot of att+, using 2 ares+1 piece, kers cuirass and the rest Phorcys.What Ares piece(s) are you talking about? What is your tp set if you don't mind me asking?

[Demon6324236]

I am assuming its this set (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/286611), however I just made that guessing by the fact its 2 Ares, 1 Ker, and 2 Phorcys. Could be wrong, but it looks about right, and with /SAM gives exactly 20TP/hit.

[Metaking]

well depending on how much int and matt you have i think Akasha Chaps would fight for the best leg slot for sanguine blade int+13 and matt+6 is nasty with its i think dintx2 (could be wrong on this). and on req i would figure Thaumas boots and legs which the +2 str and +2mnd set effect would skew it a little more

[Demon6324236]

For nuking on RDM and BLM the best so far as I know is Nares Head, Morri+1 Body, Morri+1 Hands, Akasha Legs, and Morri+1 Feet. For SCH you replace the Morri+1 Feet with AF3+2 Feet so long as you have the correct weather on, and replace the Nares Head with the AF3+2 Head if you are using Ebullience. The set bonus from Morrigan's +1 puts the hands above Nares, not to mention its massive Magic Accuracy to help avoid resists. Thats just so far as I know though.

[Jaall]

Hands and Feet, http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/286612. It misses quite a lot of double and triple attack, but it would look amazing, caps haste and 20tp/hit so it works, and well at that. Better than a lot of people use these days.

[Demon6324236]

I had one hell of a guess! XD

[Jaall]

Haha that was pretty amazing! It's exact lol

[detlef]

While that is 20.0 tp per hit, you will get less than 20 tp back from your WS meaning it will take 5 more hits to reach 100 tp. Ideally you want your TP set to allow you to hit 100% tp in 4 hits on top of the tp return from a WS.

[Jaall]

Stardiver is 4 hit, and ws'ing in DRG AF3+2 body along with everything else you ws with should give you the tp return you need from a ws in order to give you your 5 hit. You'd miss the ws dmg + from Phorcys body so like I said, it's not "perfect" but I also said before I didn't want perfect, and I'm sure somebody would be able to make it perfect. My point was there was a use for Ares+1 and yes people will strive for perfection but seeing as NNI is still hard really unless you're WAR DRK or SCH, Ares is a nice alternative.

[Jaall]

Just made this up also http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/286616. Pretty much perfect tp wise and using Ares hands+1. I'm sure you could substitute some of the store TP for double and triple attack to make it perfect but I was just seeing what I could make using at least 1 Ares, proving my point that it is still useful even in the best sets. I wouldn't use this set though, I love the look of the first set I made.

[detlef]

Well I can't argue with that. If you use AF3+2 body and all 4 hits connect then it works.

Depending on how well-geared you are something could either be a huge upgrade or not worth a second glance. Looking at things that way, the existence and use of almost any piece of armor in the game can be justified. My situation is my own, others' mileage may vary.

NNI isn't hard btw, and if you aren't capped on gear there you should seriously consider getting back into it now. 2 SCH is very much the norm but you can get by with any set up of DDs and still win frequently enough to gear yourself. Embrava plus bigger average jumps plus reduced lamp waiting time means you should go right now. It is much easier to obtain a single Nyzul piece compared to a single +1 Salvage piece. With repetition and a competent group. If you can't find 5 other competent people who can communicate then yeah I can see how it would be a struggle.

[Jaall]

I agree NNI isn't that hard at all with the right people, but finding people good enough for it can be hard whereas anyone can do salvage (killed arrapago boss with a terribly geared whm and perle bst!). I've got the pieces I need from NNI, so any more is just a bonus in that respect. But yea I agree salvage takes longer and sometimes the rewards don't fit in with a certain set, and to get that set can be harder in its own right than just spamming NNI. But they aren't 100% useless at least.

[detlef]

Just made this up also http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/286616. Pretty much perfect tp wise and using Ares hands+1. I'm sure you could substitute some of the store TP for double and triple attack to make it perfect but I was just seeing what I could make using at least 1 Ares, proving my point that it is still useful even in the best sets. I wouldn't use this set though, I love the look of the first set I made.Your set has 2 sets of hands but that doesn't really affect the bottom line. Also haste is not capped.

Anyway most 5-hit builds either have haste body/Ogier hands or AF3 body and Brego. It's very true that you can replace Brego with Ares +1 if that's the setup you use. If that's your setup then yes, Ares +1 is definitely something you can plug in there. I give.

[Jaall]

Sorry yea, I deleted them second hands now and it's pretty much capped seeing as 25% is cap but gear isn't accurate. There will be a tiny difference but really not that noticeable so many people regard 25% as cap as well as 26, 26 being ideal. But yea it could be slightly better I was just playing around with ideas, I'm sure with a little more thought you could fix it to be perfect. Just proving my point that the new salvage pieces aren't completely useless like a lot of people have said, just needs a bit of experimenting to find where they work nicely.

[Jaall]

This set would also work too.... http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/286619. Could swap out pole grip for rose strap if you need extra store tp, due to lack in WS.

[Zagen]

This set would also work too.... http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/286619. Could swap out pole grip for rose strap if you need extra store tp, due to lack in WS.

Do you actually math out your sets or just look for 25/26% haste and the right amount of STP and call it a day? I ask because you're giving up Triple Attack and Quadrupedal Attack options just to try and justify the Salvage 2 gear.

[Jaall]

Making the point they work, like I've said before a few posts ago, never said I wanted to be the best so why should I math them? But I'm sure there are fixes to all that. Zagen I'm not sure what your deal is, but please just be happy you don't have to do salvage maybe and stop complaining?

[Zagen]

Making the point they work, like I've said before a few posts ago, never said I wanted to be the best so why should I math them? But I'm sure there are fixes to all that. Zagen I'm not sure what your deal is, but please just be happy you don't have to do salvage maybe and stop complaining?
Simple, someone who doesn't know any better might actually think your gear sets are good sets to aim for instead of being sets that are made to justify your personal feelings on Salvage 2 gear needing to be used by DRG.

[Yenecol]

Simple, someone who doesn't know any better might actually think your gear sets are good sets to aim for instead of being sets that are made to justify your personal feelings on Salvage 2 gear needing to be used by DRG.So, back to topic, if we have to make less than optimal sets to satisfy personal feelings that this is gear we should be using, are we really all that happy? Maybe I am being nostalgic, but I was waiting for Salvage II to present us with top gear along the lines of the original Salvage and I still believe it failed to do that.

Now I am hoping for Salvage III to give me amazing +2.

[Jaall]

There will never be an amazing salvage II because SE have switched NI with salvage, why can't people accept that? Why does everyone expect better than the already amazing Phorcys? Also if people are that much of a hardcore player, they will figure the math out for themselves rather than take advice from someone who said on multiple occasions that I play to look good. My sets work, but they are not the best, unless looking good is what you're aiming for, then they're fantastic.

Also who said SE wanted to make good drops from salvage II and didn't just want to please the community by bringing some fun back. Who said there was even a point to salvage II? It's just another event in a huge line of endgame. If you don't like it don't do it. It's not like you can't still do Salvage I. And a lot of things change in this game, most relevant being the 75-99 cap increase but nobody can go back in time so all you can do is deal with the changes and move on. Playing the game isn't compulsory, if you don't like it, don't play it, it's really really simple.

[detlef]

You're reaching... You actually played the "if you don't like it, don't play it card." Many posters in this thread have agreed that there are many worthwhile salvage pieces. I just happen to think that for DRG, Ares isn't that great. You responded by making many crazy tp sets which have many questionable choices, trying to justify including Ares +1 while acknowledging that your sets aren't the best. One of those sets requires Wrathwing Nails which is 25m on my server and another includes Houyi's Gorget.

It's okay to say that Salvage +1 gear is an option for people because every piece of gear is an option. To a Perle DD, yeah it looks great. But you have to recognize it for what it is and understand that some people will be disappointed with it. And I'm only talking about Ares, as there are many must-own pieces in the other sets.

[Jaall]

Wrathwing nails have to come from somewhere and if you have a legion shell you wouldn't have to buy. I'm just bored and tbh this thread is entertaining. If people don't like salvage it doesn't bother me because I have my static and we enjoy it. I'm making Ares for my DRG simply because it looks amazing and the less people lotting the better. I still don't get peoples elitist nature in this game but hey, I've been amazed by things like that for years! Oh also I defended Ares+1 just cause I could, it could be on par with perle, that would really have screwed things up!! If there's anything to learn from this thread it's that SE don't make things better with every update, sometimes they can release new equipment that isn't the best, and people should get used to that because I see it happening a lot in the future especially with the new expansion. Anyways that's me done in this thread, not much fun left here anymore.

[saevel]

well depending on how much int and matt you have i think Akasha Chaps would fight for the best leg slot for sanguine blade int+13 and matt+6 is nasty with its i think dintx2 (could be wrong on this). and on req i would figure Thaumas boots and legs which the +2 str and +2mnd set effect would skew it a little more

Akasha Chaps would be the best for Sang Blade (completely missed those).

For Req though I'd go with Morrigans +1. 14 Attack isn't going to compete with +6.8 WSC (after the bonus 2 from set bonus). Req having a -20% attack penalty doesn't change the effects of a 100% WSC, it simply means you need more attack before hitting diminishing returns.

[Yenecol]

Something else occurred to me... would we be as upset if neo-salvage had been released before neo-nyzul? The two will always be compared because they have a common link - tags. No one goes around comparing these two to say, Meebles. Now, the old paradigm was that Salvage was for the best of the best gear and Nyzul not. Now, there has been a paradigm shift but one that was not anticipated. In an RPG, you expect progression; villains get harder but your weapons and armor get better. Had SE released neo-salvage FIRST, perhaps the shift would not have been so jarring. But, instead, SE releases Neo-Salvage after Neo-Nyzul. So naturally, most people would expect that the later released content would have the better gear and traditionally Salvage had the better gear. Disappointment comes about when an expectation isn't met. Even if Salvage gear is ok and has a few really nice pieces, compared to Nyzul, I am disappointed.

I just hope SE learns from this and makes decent gear for Adoulin. If the gear from Adoulin is worse than or merely a side-grade to say, Abyssea, yes I will still play it for the storyline and the memories but will it be as enjoyable? No, of course not. Again, RPGs are about progression. A game like this is like a shark (not counting nurse sharks), it has to keep moving forward or it will die.

[Metaking]

Personally i would rather se take some risk and make gear types that jobs generally don't get, i mean imagine if all of kers was like its gloves str att matt and maybe tack on some mnd and int and bam cloudspliter might not be so useless anymore, not to mention giving entorpy and req some new toys. Same for feas( dd gear for blm sch and rdm) and sigyn's( some of the best racc and ratt most of those jobs excluding rng can get) had all been like the gloves of said sets. I mean you give a job a magical weapon skill give them the gear to use there magical weapon skill. I mean we dont need a constant power creep when you can make gear that does things differently, and give jobs more options to get the job done.

ps: yes i know alot of the meat heads wont use the extra versatility and get mad when the circle block wont fit in the triangle slot

[detlef]

Wrathwing nails have to come from somewhere and if you have a legion shell you wouldn't have to buyCertainly depends on your lotting system. Even if you get it from your LS you’re still receiving a 25m item.


I'm just bored and tbh this thread is entertaining. If people don't like salvage it doesn't bother me because I have my static and we enjoy it. I'm making Ares for my DRG simply because it looks amazing and the less people lotting the better.There is nothing wrong with that. It’s your $12.95. If you enjoy the event then more power to you.


I still don't get peoples elitist nature in this game but hey, I've been amazed by things like that for years! Oh also I defended Ares+1 just cause I could, it could be on par with perle, that would really have screwed things up.I don’t get what you mean by elitist. It’s funny that you use that term because Salvage is actually very unfriendly toward casuals, as it highly encourages low-manning and multi-boxing.


If there's anything to learn from this thread it's that SE don't make things better with every update, sometimes they can release new equipment that isn't the best, and people should get used to that because I see it happening a lot in the future especially with the new expansion. Anyways that's me done in this thread, not much fun left here anymore.Yeah those times when an update would roll around and everything would be sidegrade or niche use were great. Not saying that about Salvage gear as a whole though, as there are many great pieces. Also, Matsui has said this:

"In regards to item stats, this is a crucial growth element as you cannot level up past level 99. It's necessary to release items with stronger and really good stats in the future."

So I think just the opposite. I think the expansion will bring in a lot of better gear and we will complain that all our hard work has been invalidated.

[detlef]

Something else occurred to me... would we be as upset if neo-salvage had been released before neo-nyzul? The two will always be compared because they have a common link - tags. No one goes around comparing these two to say, Meebles. Now, the old paradigm was that Salvage was for the best of the best gear and Nyzul not. Now, there has been a paradigm shift but one that was not anticipated. In an RPG, you expect progression; villains get harder but your weapons and armor get better. Had SE released neo-salvage FIRST, perhaps the shift would not have been so jarring. But, instead, SE releases Neo-Salvage after Neo-Nyzul. So naturally, most people would expect that the later released content would have the better gear and traditionally Salvage had the better gear. Disappointment comes about when an expectation isn't met. Even if Salvage gear is ok and has a few really nice pieces, compared to Nyzul, I am disappointed.

I just hope SE learns from this and makes decent gear for Adoulin. If the gear from Adoulin is worse than or merely a side-grade to say, Abyssea, yes I will still play it for the storyline and the memories but will it be as enjoyable? No, of course not. Again, RPGs are about progression. A game like this is like a shark (not counting nurse sharks), it has to keep moving forward or it will die.The perception of Salvage gear is definitely affected by the quality of Nyzul gear. But I think too that as Jaall said, people have always assumed Salvage gear would trump Nyzul gear like at 75. So in that sense it would have had to be significantly better to meet peoples' expectations. That's how I felt anyway.

[Asymptotic]

Neo-Nyzul was our first LV99 comprehensive gearing solution. Our last comprehensive gearing solution before it was AF3+2. It was comparatively amazing because there were 10+ levels between it and all the sets that came before it. Complete obsoleting of same-level gear is rare in FFXI terms, the development team tending to partial replacement / situationalization. Future updates will continue to situationalize and potentially obsolete NNI gear, but it's not going to happen in one update.

[Afania]

I don’t get what you mean by elitist. It’s funny that you use that term because Salvage is actually very unfriendly toward casuals, as it highly encourages low-manning and multi-boxing.



Encourages low-manning and multi-boxing isn't unfriendly toward casuals, Abyssea also encourages low-manning and multi-boxing, but no player would think Abyssea is not friendly toward casuals.

Things like legion that requires set schedule, specific set up and gears are unfriendly toward casuals, not Salvage2.

[detlef]

Legion is more unfriendly, I completely agree.

Now, I don't consider myself a casual player in any way, and I don't have any kind of personal stake because I'll grind my pieces out eventually. What I meant when I posted that earlier is the amount of plans you have to collect to complete a +1 piece is very high for a casual player, especially if it's played "as intended (someone else's term, not mine)" with a handful of other players and not multi-box. Since you're limited to 1 permit per day and the event is 2 hours, it's a pretty significant time commitment for the type of player I would consider casual. It could easily take months to complete a single piece. That's what I was trying to get out there.

Maybe I'm all alone on this one; fewer people than I expected are complaining about the number of plans you need. Also, compared to other events, maybe people have a different expectation than I do.

[Yenecol]

Legion is more unfriendly, I completely agree.

Now, I don't consider myself a casual player in any way, and I don't have any kind of personal stake because I'll grind my pieces out eventually. What I meant when I posted that earlier is the amount of plans you have to collect to complete a +1 piece is very high for a casual player, especially if it's played "as intended (someone else's term, not mine)" with a handful of other players and not multi-box. Since you're limited to 1 permit per day and the event is 2 hours, it's a pretty significant time commitment for the type of player I would consider casual. It could easily take months to complete a single piece. That's what I was trying to get out there.

Maybe I'm all alone on this one; fewer people than I expected are complaining about the number of plans you need. Also, compared to other events, maybe people have a different expectation than I do.
You want to know why more people aren't complaining? They looked at the gear, said, "meh," and decided to pretend this event doesn't even exist.

Some of gear is pretty decent but if I had made the original skadi cuirie with millions of gil, I would be infinitely more pissed than I am now given skadi cuirie+1 does not beat thaumas (as a TP piece, not talking about Dancing Edge). Hell, between the two, I actually prefer the sigyn due to the triple attack.