Fostering Skillful Play

[Okipuit]

Greetings!

Below is a message from Producer Akihiko Matsui in regards to the version update delay as well as his thoughts on game play. :)



Hello, Matsui here.

I apologize for the version update delay.

The fix and testing procedures have been completed, so all of the new content, including the new Salvage, will be ready after the maintenance scheduled for 2-4 am tonight (9-11 am PST). Please hang on for a couple more hours. m(_ _)m

Also, I apologize to those of you who have been wondering why I haven’t been posting on the forums this week. I felt that there was a lot of discussion going on about the version update and thought it would be best not to bring up new topics for you to discuss since they could get lost in the midst of the version update.

With that said, I would like to write a bit about my ideas on game play.
(This isn’t very different from the post I made during the FFXIV battle reform. However, I believe this is important information to share with FFXI fans, so I would like to reiterate these points.)
　
I personally believe that game play is nearly synonymous with fostering skillful play.

Without different levels of skill involved, a game isn’t really a game, and I believe that a major factor in the enjoyment of playing games is being rewarded for playing at a high level of skill. (Although it may be more difficult to explain the fun of finishing off collections or completing specific tasks.)

The joy felt when defeating a very strong enemy or completing content that is considered challenging is proportionate to how strong the enemy was or how difficult the content was.

However, I don’t believe that this is the only aspect of fostering skillful play.

In addition to things like being able to perfectly time the stun of an enemy's powerful ability, there are many different levels and ways in which users have foster skillful play. You need to gather equipment and meds, know the right farming spots for your parties, and various other aspects.

Looking from this point of view at the recent FFXI, I feel that the varieties of fostering skillful play are becoming too skewed.

For all of you who love and enjoy playing FFXI, I would like increase the ways you experience the joy of being rewarded for playing well. That said, we will be adding a variety of ways to foster skillful play and we’ll also be making adjustments.

We will strive to improve the game so that users can continue to love FFXI and make lasting memories.

Thank you and best regards.

P.S.
From tomorrow, I need to focus on posts related to version updates.
I have been looking over all of the other hot topics and spoken with the rest of the development team members so that we can respond; however, I would like to make the priority threads related to the version update for now. Thanks for your understanding.

[Alhanelem]

This sounds like a really fancy way of saying "NERFS INCOMING!"

:p

In all seriousness, there are only a handful of fights and content types in this game where brute force won't get you through it, or isn't the best way to get you through it. I think voidwatch did a decent job of making skill level a bit more important again, with its complex system for weakening the enemy and improving rewards. The real challenge in improving this though, is to make enemies more challenging without pigeonholing players in to just 3-5 jobs. This needs to be addessed both by adjusting jobs and also by making certain enemies more vulnerable to specific jobs. For instance, we have the elemental circle. What if there was a 'job circle" where enemies of a particular job were specifically weak to players of another job? (In retrospect, this would have to be disabled for ballista for balance, but I think it's a good idea at least as far as pve is concerned)

[SpankWustler]

Thanks to the Producer Bro for writing this in the first place, and thanks to the Community Bros for posting it here. It's cool to have this kind of information.

I wonder how to extrapolate anything concrete from this, though. One way I could interpret it is that all end-game content being similar to Legion, with a its huge focus on Stun, would be way too myopic for Matsui's taste. Another interpretation is that we can expect lots of stuff to have a degree of Stun resistance that will put the Paramount Mantis to shame.

Another interpretation, maybe the most accurate, is that the statement is purposefully vague and that players should just expect varied content in the future. But, the statement about Stun is pretty specific for a mission statement about battles in general.

So, I'm curious about something. Did Matsui have anything in particular in mind with the statement of "I feel that the varieties of fostering skillful play are becoming too skewed" or is the whole post meant to be a very broad statement about the virtues of variety?

[Alhanelem]

Shocksquall rotations.wait, people actually use this? let me in on the fun!

[Helel]

Ranger

Recycle

Adjustments

Please.

[Trumpy]

wow Rosina hasnt even posted since August but her name is still being dropped lol.

[SpankWustler]

wow Rosina hasnt even posted since August but her name is still being dropped lol.

Sadly, "a well-timed hundred fists" was the first thing that came to mind when I thought of "FFXI skills that don't exist". Sadder yet, I went with it. Saddest of all, I took 15 seconds to check that post for grammatical errors and that wasn't enough time to feel ashamed enough to just delete it.

Edit: Or, the post I was replying to can be deleted and I can go back and delete it, after all!

[Umichi]

This sounds like a really fancy way of saying "NERFS INCOMING!"

:p

In all seriousness, there are only a handful of fights and content types in this game where brute force won't get you through it, or isn't the best way to get you through it. I think voidwatch did a decent job of making skill level a bit more important again, with its complex system for weakening the enemy and improving rewards. The real challenge in improving this though, is to make enemies more challenging without pigeonholing players in to just 3-5 jobs. This needs to be addessed both by adjusting jobs and also by making certain enemies more vulnerable to specific jobs. For instance, we have the elemental circle. What if there was a 'job circle" where enemies of a particular job were specifically weak to players of another job? (In retrospect, this would have to be disabled for ballista for balance, but I think it's a good idea at least as far as pve is concerned)

i don't think you understand what he's trying to say.... the game balancing isnt the issue he wants to adress. it's how we used to play and how we play now that he sees as the problem.

[Mirage]

I think he just wants the gameplay to become less one-dimensional. Make it so that it is more beneficial to utilize a bigger portion of the abilities available to us on each job than we currently do. It might even mean a buff to some of the forgotten abilities in the game.

I am hoping it means we'll get more fights where brute force max dps Victory Furysolution spam with super buffs isn't the way to win everything.

[Rekin]

I think he just wants the gameplay to become less one-dimensional. Make it so that it is more beneficial to utilize a bigger portion of the abilities available to us on each job than we currently do. It might even mean a buff to some of the forgotten abilities in the game.

I am hoping it means we'll get more fights where brute force max dps Victory Furysolution spam with super buffs isn't the way to win everything.
Give the mob moves that aren't OMGWTF, fix enmity, give it massive -PDT, fix enmity, remove 30min timers on fights, fix enmity, make enfeebles worth something, fix enmity, increase damage bonus from SCs and MBs, and finally fix enmity. I think I covered most of the important issues that causes the current trend.

[Mirage]

That's much of the things I was having in mind as well, yes.

Oh yeah, did you mention enmity?

[Babekeke]

The way i see it, skill isn't so much based on actual skill in ffxi, it's purely 'how much time do you have available to play?'.

If you are at school, or unemployed, you'll have much more time to play than someone working a 50 hour week.

If you have a family, they'll want you to spend time with them (though maybe some people don't realise this lol) so you'll have less time to play than someone living on their own, or in their mum's basement.

So how does this contribute skill? More time to play = more time to make money; more time to spend doing events; more time to improve your gear, weapons etc. It doesn't actually contribute to skill, but you can put out more damage because of your gear, so it appears that you are more skillful.

Unfortunately, there are still idiots out there who have a well geared ragnarok99 war or drk (for example), who will still get outparsed by a skillful player who is less-well geared.

I think that no longer being able to lock buffs on NPCs is the first step towards this. Now people have to think when is the best time to use their buffing JAs, rather than just having them up full-time anyway.

[Lienn]

"With that said, I would like to write a bit about my ideas on game play.
(This isn’t very different from the post I made during the FFXIV battle reform. However, I believe this is important information to share with FFXI fans, so I would like to reiterate these points.)
　
I personally believe that game play is nearly synonymous with fostering skillful play."

Good lord...this really creeps me out. After the horrid changes FFXIV received the past 2 years, saying this here just can't mean something good... >< Just missing Wada showing here too to say "everything will be alright".

+1 against "skillful play" concepts of Matsui. After the changes in FFXIV the last thing a player needed was skill...i don't want to see FFXI becoming something like that too. :/

[Areayea]

hm... I have a bad feeling about this, the interface that FFXI uses kinda is very Skill based, I hope he's just gonna come out with new content, not change the way jobs actually work >.>. That being said, Perhaps he's talking about creating new content that works like how Wyrms work (I STILL GET VERY ANGRY AT ANYONE... ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!! who fights ANY wyrm at it's tail, should be no excuse not to know that rule.)

[Mirage]

The interface is skill based... what?

[Sarick]

The way i see it, skill isn't so much based on actual skill in ffxi, it's purely 'how much time do you have available to play?'.

If you are at school, or unemployed, you'll have much more time to play than someone working a 50 hour week.

If you have a family, they'll want you to spend time with them (though maybe some people don't realise this lol) so you'll have less time to play than someone living on their own, or in their mum's basement.

So how does this contribute skill? More time to play = more time to make money; more time to spend doing events; more time to improve your gear, weapons etc. It doesn't actually contribute to skill, but you can put out more damage because of your gear, so it appears that you are more skillful.

This doesn't help if it's not fun for everyone. The term fun is different for everyone. The refresh cycles wasn't FUN but, because game design we where forced to do them. Abbasya was fun not because it was easy but because the rewards where high. Throwing in a bunch of repetitive luck based BS and calling it SKILL isn't the answer.

I have plenty of time to play this game but each update sense the start of the year has made me less interested in staying. It's gotten that bad. I'd rather just stay stand around. There is no fun in basing everything on outright luck or large investments for upgrades that require selling your soul to get. Then again once you do get them after blood sweet and tears you get a NERFED.

[Umichi]

He's saying people aren't game smart anymore... at least that's how i see it. ask any new person who came in after abyssea started up and was on it's third expansion where are the 3-4 popular leveling spots people used to go to for leveling around 20-40 and within those zones where the camps are, or what skillchain is produced from using a weapon skill combo like lightning thrust and burning blade, then ask em what spells could be cast to produce a magic burst. or things like where are the places to farm items for money, or heres where you can buy x item from an npc, also things like how everyone is just sent to gusgen, garilige citadel and then abyssea they level so fast they have barely any interaction with their community or people who play their job in the community.

Things like helping newbies is also something i think he means when he says fostering skill i used to remember seeing 10-20 mentors on at any given time now there is barely 5-6.


Also remember he says social alot in his speech so don't just assume it's job fixes and adjusments >_>

[saevel]

He's talking about creating battles that actually involved strategy and mechanics. Anyone who's played other MMO's knows that battles should have a variety of things happening requiring team work and precision application of strategy's. Not super buffing a handful of DD's and throwing them at a monster while keeping them alive (somehow).

The reason we've been using the "throw more DD's at it" is that is the only current strategy that works. Battles have a time limit, but don't be fooled the fight we be over LONG before that time limit expires. The NM's can devastate an entire alliance so fast that your only option is to hit it with max DPS in the hope of overpowering it's AI (I'll go into this in a minute). The longer the NM is alive and engaged the longer it's AI has to run through it's various methods of killing you and the higher your chance of a failure are. Many of these fights are non-recoverable due to the NM regaining it's HP (that seriously needs to stop for BC or other restricted entry fights), once people start dieing it quickly turns into a cluster f*ck and a wipe. With alliance wide hate and super powerful moves of death, recovery is a very slim option.

Now onto the monsters AI, monsters decisions to use TP moves depends on two things. First being it's current TP, over 25% HP (30~50% on some NMs) it will only use it when it's @300, under 25% HP it'll use it @100TP. Second is an actual script timer, the AI won't use a move within a certain time of already using one. Zering gives an NM so much TP that it hits 300 within seconds but due to it's timer it won't use TP moves as fast as it accumulates TP. This has the effect of reducing total TP spam vs damage dealt (get one move per 400~600TP fed to the NM rather then one per 300).

To get out of all this BS SE needs several changes.

Foremost is fixing enmity such that a tank can actually tank during a max DPS rush. Don't kid yourself if it's not possible for a tank to hold hate when a DD is going nuts, then we'll be falling back to the zerg strategy. The longer a monster is alive the higher your chance of death, thus it's in your best interests to kill it ASAP. This is why fixing enmity such that damage output doesn't create insane amounts is important, tanks by definition can not create as much damage as a melee and restricting your "hate" to the max damage of a PLD is a fail strategy.

Second is fixing the super AoE wipe everyone moves, AoE's need to be severely restricted. SE has gotten entirely too comfortable with making everything aoe. Circular AoE ensures that no matter if your tanking or not, everyone gets hit with the sh!tty move. Why even bring a *tank* if everyone's going to be hit with the move anyway, just bring another DPS, your healing the same amount (Curaga spam). Monster attacks should be devastating but only devastating to the target (assuming fixed enmity) with a small cone effect to anyone standing next to them. Or they could use a small 5 ~ 7 foot circular range on the *target* not the NM. These things force people to consider positioning. Finally, no more AoE super dispelling moves or sudden hate reset moves. AoE dispelling spam just moves fights towards PD / Embrava zergs as buffs are critical to keeping people alive and functioning. Single target multi-dispel is fine, or even a small conal / target-circle one, but massive 20 foot super dispells just screw with people without adding any strategy at all. Sudden Hate reset moves just make tanking impossible and your back to DD spammage (can't reset hate on all the DDs).

[Mirage]

He's saying people aren't game smart anymore... at least that's how i see it. ask any new person who came in after abyssea started up and was on it's third expansion where are the 3-4 popular leveling spots people used to go to for leveling around 20-40 and within those zones where the camps are, or what skillchain is produced from using a weapon skill combo like lightning thrust and burning blade, then ask em what spells could be cast to produce a magic burst. or things like where are the places to farm items for money, or heres where you can buy x item from an npc, also things like how everyone is just sent to gusgen, garilige citadel and then abyssea they level so fast they have barely any interaction with their community or people who play their job in the community.

Things like helping newbies is also something i think he means when he says fostering skill i used to remember seeing 10-20 mentors on at any given time now there is barely 5-6.


Also remember he says social alot in his speech so don't just assume it's job fixes and adjusments >_>

The reason people aren't using all the gameplay mechanics is because the events are designed in such a way that these gameplay mechanics are not important, not because "players are dumb".

Players adjust. If the content doesn't require smarts to complete, they don't bother learning everything there is to learn. If the content does require the players to be smart, the players will learn how to use the other game mechanics as well, regardless of if they got their job to 99 in an abyssea leech alliance or not.

I don't think Akihiko is saying "players are dumb" at all. I think he's recognizing that the current battle mechanics and NM designs just do not create an environment where skillful play can be fostered.

[Freebytes]

Some of the best targets in terms of skill that I have seen were primarily from level 75 and they did not involve very many gimmicks in terms of 'triggering'. These were also some of the most fun fights. They were Sky Gods, high tier Zeni NMs, Kirin, Proto-Omega, Proto-Ultima, Jailer of Love, Salvage Chariots, all three KSNM99 monsters, and Jormungand. While these creatures did not require vast amounts of skill, it still adequately separated players with no skill from some with better skill, and this was fun. In addition, the rewards were adequate from all of these even if the drop rates were limited.

If we could have fights similar to these without the ability to zerg every one of them, that would be great. I do not care for stagger gimmicks that work on every mob in the zone but having a different strategy for each mob would be nice. I prefer longer fights with greater chance of good rewards over short fights with a low chance of a reward.

I would also like to see creatures that highlight some benefits of each job without 'staggering'. For example, if you have a creature that is immune to everything except stun, bind and shadowbind, and it has a move where it will use hundred fists and hit for 500 per swing, you would be recommended to bring a RDM or RNG, but you would not be required to have both or either necessarily. A BLM could stun it immediately when it starts Hundred Fists, everyone could get out of the way, and another player could bind it in place.

If you had a creature that used a chainspell move with a specific element but could not be enfeebled with anything except slow and paralyze, it would be beneficial to bring a tank that had a resist build. Creatures that require players to maintain hate and know where to stand are also great. KSNM99 creatures were fantastic. Behemoth was best done with kiting or well timed weaponskills, Wyrm required people to run away at specific points and for a good tank, and the turtle required well timed skill chains and magic bursting. These were excellent. I would like to see more creatures similar to this rather than simply having it blast people with massive AoEs without warning.

[Emitremmus]

I personally liked the way you had the option of enfeebling an enemy with items in the CoP era. Perhaps re-including items that aren't going to be terribly dreadful to obtain would be a fun thing to introduce again. A wolf enemy resembling Fenrir, and you have to throw a steak to distract him for instance. Who here can honestly say that an alliance of steak tossing fighters would not be fun?

Using the terrain to your advantage would be cool as well. For example, an area where you fight a monster that can only take damage when it is standing in water. So you have to move him around where you want, let him get impacted by the water, unleash all the damage you can, and he flees away from his weakness. Cool stuff.

Another thing I'm a fan of, is the damage specific types of enemies a la A Shattoto Ascension (and that one ahriman in Abyssea - Konschtat, but screw that guy.) A monster that is only weak to skillchain damage? Heck yes. Forcing people to work together and play accordingly...uh oh. Of course all melee attacks would have to do at least 1 damage to trigger a skillchain, but you feel me.

[Camiie]

With that said, I would like to write a bit about my ideas on game play.
(This isn’t very different from the post I made during the FFXIV battle reform. However, I believe this is important information to share with FFXI fans, so I would like to reiterate these points.)
　
I personally believe that game play is nearly synonymous with fostering skillful play.

Without different levels of skill involved, a game isn’t really a game, and I believe that a major factor in the enjoyment of playing games is being rewarded for playing at a high level of skill. (Although it may be more difficult to explain the fun of finishing off collections or completing specific tasks.)

But you have to reward players at all levels of "skill" in order to create some level of progression. What we've been missing is the middle tier of rewards. We have gear that's apparently intended for everyone and gear that seems to be intended for hardly anyone, but where's the intermediate challenge? There seems to be a missing step between Voidwatch and Neo-Nyzul. This is probably where I get lambasted, but I don't feel as though there's any content along the way that truly prepares me for it. I won't speak to Legion as I figure I'm supposed to get gear from Neo-Nyzul before I dare to set foot in Legion.


The joy felt when defeating a very strong enemy or completing content that is considered challenging is proportionate to how strong the enemy was or how difficult the content was.

Until you cross the line into the realm of frustration, which IMO, your content does a bit too often.

Don't forget that it can also be fun when we're the powerful ones. It's nice sometimes to be able to show off our power and curb stomp our enemies. It's nice when we get to show why we're the ones everyone in Vana'diel calls on when the shit hits the fan. Those of us who've been playing for a long time and amassed all that we have deserve a bit better than to keel over dead every time a dragon sneezes.

Variety is the spice of life. There's room for fights where we'll struggle, but also room for fights where we'll shine.


However, I don’t believe that this is the only aspect of fostering skillful play.

In addition to things like being able to perfectly time the stun of an enemy's powerful ability, there are many different levels and ways in which users have foster skillful play. You need to gather equipment and meds, know the right farming spots for your parties, and various other aspects.

We are gathering equipment and meds. We are using the abilities at our disposal. It's just that the way certain events work, you can do everything right and still get destroyed or the abilities we have (and many entire JOBS) prove to be utterly useless.


Looking from this point of view at the recent FFXI, I feel that the varieties of fostering skillful play are becoming too skewed.

For all of you who love and enjoy playing FFXI, I would like increase the ways you experience the joy of being rewarded for playing well. That said, we will be adding a variety of ways to foster skillful play and we’ll also be making adjustments.

We will strive to improve the game so that users can continue to love FFXI and make lasting memories.


I'd like for you to clarify what you mean here. I'd like to think you mean you're going to make it so we actually have the tools to succeed against whatever we may face, but I have a fear that you're just going to end up making things even more difficult and unfair somehow.

[SpankWustler]

I don't think Akihiko is saying "players are dumb" at all. I think he's recognizing that the current battle mechanics and NM designs just do not create an environment where skillful play can be fostered.

I hope this is the case. I'd be really happy to get some screws and a screwdriver instead of the nails and hammer format everything has gradually moved towards. Plowing through content best cleared by extremely buffed melee and some form of Stun by using extremely buffed melee and some form of Stun gets old after a while.

I think the main concern is that this statement actually does mean something and will be pursued half-way. So, we'll be forced to drive nails with the handles of screwdrivers or forcibly hammer in screws.

[Mirage]

Are you trying to tell me that screws aren't meant to be hammered in?

[Yinnyth]

...

Foremost is fixing enmity such that a tank can actually tank during a max DPS rush. Don't kid yourself if it's not possible for a tank to hold hate when a DD is going nuts, then we'll be falling back to the zerg strategy.

...

Second is fixing the super AoE wipe everyone moves, AoE's need to be severely restricted. SE has gotten entirely too comfortable with making everything aoe.

I agree to some degree with everything you've raised in your post. I do take 2 exceptions though:

Tanking: It is my opinion that tanks should not be able to hold hate off DDs who are going balls to the wall with their damage. If a tank can hold hate off all the DDs while they're doing a primevil brew zerg, then the only portion of the strategy of battles becomes "keep the tank alive" because no one else will be getting damaged, so you just ignore them and let them do their thing. Tanks need to be able to hold hate a lot better than they currently do cetainly, but it should only be enough to hold hate off an average DD going at 75% power.

DDs going at full power needs to be a calculated risk. Enmity gear needs to mean something. Enmity reducing abilities need to mean something. If tanks are always 100% effective, we lose all of these aspects from gameplay.

AoE: AoEs provide the battle with other strategic aspects which should not be removed. Some AoEs are complete BS (Hi, ADL's 4x-instant-use dynamic implosion which has 30' range, does 300-500 damage each, and inflicts terror for over 30 seconds), and those should be changed. But AoEs should not be removed from the game completely.

We need high-power AoEs with a long wind-up so tactical stunning or running for your life is required. We need low-powered AoEs so healing more than just 1 person is sometimes needed. We need short ranged AoEs so people who pay attention can outrange them. We need long-range AoEs which don't hit anything within 5' of the enemy itself so even the healers get put at minor risk. We need conal AoEs so you have to be careful where you stand.

We need a variety of AoEs to force us to think about how we approach a battle. Right now, most AoE attacks are either so weak they can be almost completely ignored or so powerful that they just end any attempt at killing the enemy, and there's nothing you can do about it besides putting up PD. More thought needs to go into how a boss' attacks are programmed instead of using the approach of "I want this enemy to be harder than other enemies so his AoE will be larger, do more damage, and inflict worse status effects!"

[Caketime]

The interface is skill based... what?

I often find navigating the UI to be more of a challenge than most bosses, especially after 9 beers.

[saevel]

@Yinnyth

You idea is very flawed, if the DD's have to "hold back" then they will simply remove the tank and become the *tanks*, which is what is happening now. There is absolutely no such thing as "hate control", at least not the way we think about it (SAM/THF's running around like idiots). In most other MMO's the various squishy class's have some form of enmity reduction that they use strategically to ensure their no where near the top of the NM's hate list. Melee's are expected to have survival abilities so that they don't die faster then the healers can heal them and "tanks" are expected to hold the monsters attention throughout the fight.

If DD's have to "hold back" then eventually people will figure out that DD's can wear DT/PDT gear and suddenly why the f*ck needs a shitty PLD using a sh!tty sword and board. Instead throw in another DD and have everyone crank their damage to full and plow the NM away while spamming curaga's. The NM dies much faster so your have less overall damage intake, MP isn't an issue as it's dead long before the healers supply is gone, and your win rate goes way up as the amount of time the NM's AI spends deciding to screw you is minimized. Where as a long drawn out fight where the melee's only run in to WS affords the NM's AI multiple opportunity's to roll an 11 and just kill you. That or your going to run out of time as all your damage is limited to the PLD's output, which is a very bad place to be.

Also your extremely misinformed about high powered aoe's. If everyone is getting hit by the attack, then why do you even bother with a tank that specializes in reduced damage. Sure the tank only took 50 damage from that attack, too bad everyone else took 1500 and half the mages are dead. In that scenario throw the tank out since their not doing you a damn lick of good, insert another DD and plow it into the ground while spamming aoe cures.

We're talking about what is required for an effective "tank" to work and there is absolutely nothing about FFXI that makes it different from any other MMO in this regard. The system must allow for the designated "tank" to hold the NM's primary attention and to absorb it's more deadly attacks while allowing it to be killed. If these conditions are not met then you don't have a tank, instead you have a liability. If anyone has to stand around with their thumb up their arse or everyone is getting smacked around by aoe's targeted at the "tank", then you don't have a tank and should replace them with a DD and go full out.

The entire reason the players of FFXI resort to DD zerg tactics is that simply put, it works. There is a concept amongst engineers known as KISS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle). The strategy that is the simplest and most straightforward is usually the best one as it has the least number of places where something could go wrong or a mistake could be made. To acquire loot we must kill something, sometimes activating some sort of weakness system. We will find the simplest and most direct method to accomplishing it.

[Yinnyth]

You idea is very flawed, if the DD's have to "hold back" then they will simply remove the tank and become the *tanks*, which is what is happening now.

The tank jobs, by nature, need to be better at taking a beating than the DDs. If the DDs can survive the thrashing the enemy puts out, then enmity is not the problem. Who cares if PLDs can hold hate 100% of the time if they do no damage and die every bit as easily as the DDs? The PLD would be dead weight.


If DD's have to "hold back" then eventually people will figure out that DD's can wear DT/PDT gear and suddenly why the f*ck needs a shitty PLD using a sh!tty sword and board.

If they're prioritizing defensive gear and abilities instead of pumping everything they can into pure damage, then they're no longer a DD. At that point, they're the tank because they're focused on staying alive and keeping hate.


Also your extremely misinformed about high powered aoe's. If everyone is getting hit by the attack, then why do you even bother with a tank that specializes in reduced damage.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I want the AoEs to have a gimmick to them. Like fulmination having a long charge-up so you can stun it, but it kicks your ass if you don't. Or making it so oblivion smash has a much smaller AoE so the mages survive and can remove the para/silence/bind from the DDs. Or making it so gates of hades is more powerful, but the enemy telegraphs that they're going to use it 15 seconds before it's used so you can get all your defenses up. The idea is that I want gimmicks for the AoEs so plans can be made for how to deal with them which don't involve perfect defense, embrava, scherzo/EA, and/or killing the enemy super fast so he can't use it again.

I agree with you that AoEs are used too frequently as a cure-all to make the battle harder. Removing the AoEs completely for the game is not the solution I want. Even following your suggested changes, zergs would still be the law of the land. DDs never have a chance of pulling hate and no fear of getting hit by an AoE? They just keep doing everything they can to do damage with no variation in the battle at all from start to finish.

[Demon6324236]

Heres the thing, PLD is god, between Phalanx, capped PDT, defense, VIT, and Ochain, Physical damage is worthless. Magic has the same thing, MDB, MDT, Shell V, INT, MND, Aegis. So PLD doesn't take as much as DDs, not nearly, just the problem is AoEs and enmity is all over the damned place. Having a few AoEs, is ok, having alot, is sometimes ok, having nearly everything AoE, is bad, and when normal attacks even become standard AoEs, coupled with enfeebling effects, its fucking terrible. We are on that last one, mobs like Ironclads, Naraka, and Harpies are all of that sort. They use TPs as standard attacks each with enfeebling or special properties of some sort, that is the point when things go really bad. Now days no tank can tank, not normal attacks, not TP attacks, not spells, its almost always just AoE spam, and a tank holding hate or not, wont stop the death of everyone else.

[saevel]

Now days no tank can tank, not normal attacks, not TP attacks, not spells, its almost always just AoE spam, and a tank holding hate or not, wont stop the death of everyone else.

A tank isn't "tanking" if other people are getting hit / killed by rapid fire aoes. That's why I mentioned severely restricting their range to 5~7 feet centered on tank or conal. It allows for strategy and positioning (stand near tank and die) while not requiring your DD's only be Aegis PLDs.

A tank also isn't "tanking" if DD's have to back down their damage potential, that is an artifact of FFXI's broken hate system. People really need to go play other MMOs for a bit and see how sane developers went about solving that balance issue.

[Yinnyth]

In that sort of situation, I think the idea is that you either go with ranged damage which doesn't pull hate, or you have your DDs attack and retreat as needed. Or just attack, die, RR, unweak, and go back at it. As long as the tank can stay alive, the battle isn't over.

Things like ADL, however... the range on all his AoEs is 30, so if you're close enough to be of any help to the fight, you're close enough to get killed. They're just begging us to zerg him because a tank is worthless.

[Yinnyth]

A tank isn't "tanking" if other people are getting hit / killed by rapid fire aoes. That's why I mentioned severely restricting their range to 5~7 feet centered on tank or conal. It allows for strategy and positioning (stand near tank and die) while not requiring your DD's only be Aegis PLDs.

A tank also isn't "tanking" if DD's have to back down their damage potential, that is an artifact of FFXI's broken hate system. People really need to go play other MMOs for a bit and see how sane developers went about solving that balance issue.

Yes, the tank is "tanking", even if other idiots trip and fall on their own sword. The tank's job is to lessen the worries of other people regarding the attention they receive from enemies, not completely eliminate it. Claiming that tanks deserve to hold all of the hate all of the time is as short-sighted as saying that healers deserve to be able to keep all of the people alive all of the time, or DDs deserve to instantly kill enemies.

If you don't work for it, it's not a challenge. If it's not a challenge, then success is not an accomplishment. If it's not an accomplishment, it feels pointless. The job of a tank is impossible to accomplish currently. The solution is not to make the job of a tank impossible to fail. There is middle ground.

Also, if the tank can hold hate perfectly, and AoEs are only 5' around the tank, who the hell is going to EVER go near the tank? A thief sure as hell won't need to because they won't need to trick attack because the tank is already perfect at holding hate. DDs will just stay at the opposite side of the mob and unleash hell. Because DD isn't already the most boring and straightforward of all the roles a job can fill.

[Demon6324236]

Yes, the tank is "tanking", even if other idiots trip and fall on their own sword. The tank's job is to lessen the worries of other people regarding the attention they receive from enemies, not completely eliminate it. Claiming that tanks deserve to hold all of the hate all of the time is as short-sighted as saying that healers deserve to be able to keep all of the people alive all of the time, or DDs deserve to instantly kill enemies.No, when mobs like Ironclads, Naraka, or Harpia use AoEs on literally every hit a tank becomes nothing, you are not tanking a mob if others are getting hit anyways. That I believe was the point.

[saevel]

Yes, the tank is "tanking", even if other idiots trip and fall on their own sword. The tank's job is to lessen the worries of other people regarding the attention they receive from enemies, not completely eliminate it. Claiming that tanks deserve to hold all of the hate all of the time is as short-sighted as saying that healers deserve to be able to keep all of the people alive all of the time, or DDs deserve to instantly kill enemies.

If you don't work for it, it's not a challenge. If it's not a challenge, then success is not an accomplishment. If it's not an accomplishment, it feels pointless. The job of a tank is impossible to accomplish currently. The solution is not to make the job of a tank impossible to fail. There is middle ground.

Also, if the tank can hold hate perfectly, and AoEs are only 5' around the tank, who the hell is going to EVER go near the tank? A thief sure as hell won't need to because they won't need to trick attack because the tank is already perfect at holding hate. DDs will just stay at the opposite side of the mob and unleash hell. Because DD isn't already the most boring and straightforward of all the roles a job can fill.


Get the f*ck out of FFXI. The "tank" your describing is the current PLD and we don't use them for precisely the reason I just illustrated. Their useless as they don't mitigate squat for total damage intake, sure they take less but your still having to heal everyone else and dealing with massive damage / status ailments. Having your DD"s "back off" just has the monster live longer which just further enhances total damage intake.

How can you not understand that it's total damage that's important not what a single sh!tty tank gets hit by. Right now I can put on my PDT/DT set and "tank" better then any current "tank" job / build, this is because not only can I generate vastly more CE/TE but I also deal more damage then they do. Why would anyone ever use a job that holds less hate and deals less damage when a different job can do better?

PDT/DT sets have now radically altered how DD's can play and if your not rocking one and don't understand this then your just being ignorant on this subject.

[Yinnyth]

Get the f*ck out of FFXI. The "tank" your describing is the current PLD and we don't use them for precisely the reason I just illustrated. Their useless as they don't mitigate squat for total damage intake, sure they take less but your still having to heal everyone else and dealing with massive damage / status ailments. Having your DD"s "back off" just has the monster live longer which just further enhances total damage intake.

How can you not understand that it's total damage that's important not what a single sh!tty tank gets hit by. Right now I can put on my PDT/DT set and "tank" better then any current "tank" job / build, this is because not only can I generate vastly more CE/TE but I also deal more damage then they do. Why would anyone ever use a job that holds less hate and deals less damage when a different job can do better?

PDT/DT sets have now radically altered how DD's can play and if your not rocking one and don't understand this then your just being ignorant on this subject.
I apologize that you feel this way about me.

Total damage intake is mitigated by a healer team capable of keeping up with that total damage intake. How long they can keep up with that damage intake is determined by their own enmity issues, how well they manage their MP/time, and how well the buff team keeps them refreshed. If damage intake reaches the thresh-hold where healers can no longer keep up, fall back or die. This is strategy. Where is the strategy in your proposed changes?

Please note that I am not saying the current system is fine. I want AoEs changed so they have some method of countering them. Imagine an enemy whose only AoE attacks affect you if you're further than 5' from him. How do you deal with this? Everyone stands close. So how is there any risk there? He's a buffalo that spams snort.

Right now, all AoEs work the same way. The only thing that changes is their range, damage, and additional effects. The fundamental problem is not that there are AoEs in the first place. It's that there's not enough variety in AoEs. This is an opportunity to add more tactics to the game. You're suggesting a complete removal of the system.

[saevel]

I apologize that you feel this way about me.

Total damage intake is mitigated by a healer team capable of keeping up with that total damage intake. How long they can keep up with that damage intake is determined by their own enmity issues, how well they manage their MP/time, and how well the buff team keeps them refreshed. If damage intake reaches the thresh-hold where healers can no longer keep up, fall back or die. This is strategy. Where is the strategy in your proposed changes?

Please note that I am not saying the current system is fine. I want AoEs changed so they have some method of countering them. Imagine an enemy whose only AoE attacks affect you if you're further than 5' from him. How do you deal with this? Everyone stands close. So how is there any risk there? He's a buffalo that spams snort.

Right now, all AoEs work the same way. The only thing that changes is their range, damage, and additional effects. The fundamental problem is not that there are AoEs in the first place. It's that there's not enough variety in AoEs. This is an opportunity to add more tactics to the game. You're suggesting a complete removal of the system.

*slams head on desk*

You really need to go experience different MMO's to understand what I'm talking about.

AoE's are ~all~ the same no matter the game. They are attacks that effect multiple targets typically defined by a geographic area (go figure that). They comprise damage and / or status ailments, that's all there is to it. If non-tank members are being hit by crippling damage then the tank is useless and should be replaced by another DD who will do the exact same job only better.

Lets take ADL for example but first we'll give the PLD some super duper JA that gives them 100% perma hate and a super amazing build that mitigates 99% of damage taken. A *perfect* tank. We'll also make an assumption that after split all hate is 100% on this super perfect tank.

ADL appears *RAWR*
Tank rush's in use's super JA, ADL now has 100% hate on the tank.
Melee's *WHACK WHACK*
ADL splits and use's Oblivion Smash x 2, continues to spam AOEs

Tank takes 50 damage and laughs
support line dies, half the melee's are dead (slight exaggeration)


Yeah ... that worked out really well for you. Perfect tank did exactly jack sh1t for that fight. Now replace that tank with another DD and you'll kill it faster

You can use that example with every single NM possibly imaginable.

B3 (Big Bad Boss) appears
Perfect Tank use's super special JA has 100% hate
DD's whack whack
B3 use's Yinnyth sanctioned moves of death to encourage "strategy"
Tank survives, everyone else dies
Tank then dies due to everyone else being dead

Even inserting healers being "safe" you now have a tank and nothing else fighting the NM. Welcome to 2hr Kirins, who here is for the 2hr Kirins that Yinnyth wants?


It's that simple, a tank by definition is there to soak up the monsters most devastating attacks. If those attacks are MT large AoE's then again by definition they can not soak them up. You no longer have a "tank" and instead have a single gimp a$$ melee who's job can be done better by nearly another other melee.

Anyhow if by now you don't understand the basic mechanics of raiding and boss fighting then there's nothing I else I can do. FFXI has an absolute horrible implementation of battle mechanics, do not base any concepts on experience from FFXI. All I can say is go play another MMO and get involved in it's raiding scene to see how this works. Then when you come back to FFXI you'll see how sh1tty the current system is and what I'm talking about.

[Sarick]

A tank isn't "tanking" if other people are getting hit / killed by rapid fire aoes. That's why I mentioned severely restricting their range to 5~7 feet centered on tank or conal. It allows for strategy and positioning (stand near tank and die) while not requiring your DD's only be Aegis PLDs.

A tank also isn't "tanking" if DD's have to back down their damage potential, that is an artifact of FFXI's broken hate system. People really need to go play other MMOs for a bit and see how sane developers went about solving that balance issue.

An idea I thought of was making cover ability every 30 seconds. When the PLD uses this they're watching who the enemy they are engaged with is currently attacking and they have a high percentage chance of auto-covering if the target is a party/alliance member near them. The amount of covers successful would start at 80% success and decrease 10%-20% each successful cover. To help with hate, the target covered would lose enmity as though they was hit and the PLD would gain it for interfering IE: PISSING OFF the enemy more.

Hate or not one way to make the PLD job more viable without giving it extra attack or enmity burst is to create a strong hate-less system that gives a percentage chance to auto cover players near them no matter what the hate is. This would make the PLD TANK ROLE more realistic. The class itself as a role would still need enmity to try and hold hate but even when hate is lost they'd still attempt to block attacks regardless of enmity. This shifts the enmity problem to the job class more then the broken enmity system.

Currently the only way PLDS can cover or block attacks is if #1 the pld to hold hate #2 the PLD uses cover on one player directly behind them. #3 everyone else on the enemies hate list is dead or hate reset.

Pethetic.

In previous Final Fantasy games cover was automatic and auto assisted. The player would automatically jump to cover players. Players could also use invisible to evade many attacks. This had nasty side effects though at times because enemies could use abilities on them that killed them only while invisible. Talk about strategy.

I don't know how we lost so much skill when A lot of enemy bosses in abby needed skill. The red light green light stuff where enemies would heal if flat out zerging, enfeebles increasing enemy attacks, procing at the right to to prevent death. Zombie type status effects. Proper distance to avoid AOES, statuses etc.

Even though they wasn't hard if fought improperly they could be made impossible to kill.

[Elphy]

*slams head on desk*

I kindda think your missing the point. Tanks should be there to tank and no they should not be a dd.

Spamming AOE is one thing and no boss should spam devistating aoe unless there is a mechanic or s-t-r-a-t-e-g-y that can get you around the aoe or cause the boss to stop the spam. DD should never be able to hack and slash to their little blood lusting hearts content. That creates an incredible imbalance when you have 22 jobs, each with a particular skill set.
Unless of course they want to make it so my dnc does the same damage as your sam or my sch can have equally damaging nukes as your blm and healing potential of your whm. What they want to do is get away from the hack and slash mentality, which I would LOVE if they did.

The zergfest of ffxi is getting old and stale and being someone who doesnt need to have the biggest sword to compensate for having the least skill I welcome skillful play changes.

It would be fantastic if tanks had to utilize their job abilities in certain ways in certain situations to do their jobs, and mages had to emfeeble and chain spells to create the desired effect and a dd who had to use their ws and ja in certain ways to deal damage and everyone should know their limitations.

No game should ever just be a zergfest, and thats why alot of other mmo's are dying out fast, all jobs do the same thing and all content is about doing as much damage as you can the fastest.

[Yinnyth]

If non-tank members are being hit by crippling damage then the tank is useless and should be replaced by another DD who will do the exact same job only better.

If I had to distill everything we've been debating into a single statement showing the disconnect between our understanding of one another, it would be this previous statement. To me, it appears as though you want tanks to be able to not just be perfect at holding hate, but be the only players at risk of taking any damage. To you, it appears as though I want ADL's ability to use 4x terra slash and wipe the whole alliance to remain intact.

I do not. I've never said I want AoEs to remain the way they currently are. I want them changed too. But I don't want to cripple them to the point where they're no longer a part of the difficulty of a fight. I want there to be a large number of diverse and challenging ways to avoid AoEs. Sometimes you need to be close to the enemy, sometimes you need to be far, sometimes you need to run from the AoE because it has a tiny area of effect and a long chargeup, sometimes you need to stun the AoE, sometimes you need to be in front of, behind, or to the side of the enemy, sometimes there's no avoiding the AoE but it has horrible magic accuracy so a barspell will save you.


B3 (Big Bad Boss) appears
Perfect Tank use's super special JA has 100% hate
DD's whack whack
B3 use's Yinnyth sanctioned moves of death to encourage "strategy"
Tank survives, everyone else dies
Tank then dies due to everyone else being dead

Apparantly there was no avoiding these moves of death, just like how the current system works. Therefore these moves would not be sanctioned by Yinnyth. If there's nothing that can be done to pre-empt, avoid, negate, stop, shrug off, or otherwise minimize the effects of a deadly AoE attack, then it needs to be fixed. If it's something crazy weak like bubble shower, then it's no big deal. If it's something crazy strong like Thundris Shriek, give us a work-around.

[saevel]

I kindda think your missing the point. Tanks should be there to tank and no they should not be a dd.

Spamming AOE is one thing and no boss should spam devistating aoe unless there is a mechanic or s-t-r-a-t-e-g-y that can get you around the aoe or cause the boss to stop the spam. DD should never be able to hack and slash to their little blood lusting hearts content. That creates an incredible imbalance when you have 22 jobs, each with a particular skill set.
Unless of course they want to make it so my dnc does the same damage as your sam or my sch can have equally damaging nukes as your blm and healing potential of your whm. What they want to do is get away from the hack and slash mentality, which I would LOVE if they did.

The zergfest of ffxi is getting old and stale and being someone who doesnt need to have the biggest sword to compensate for having the least skill I welcome skillful play changes.

It would be fantastic if tanks had to utilize their job abilities in certain ways in certain situations to do their jobs, and mages had to emfeeble and chain spells to create the desired effect and a dd who had to use their ws and ja in certain ways to deal damage and everyone should know their limitations.

No game should ever just be a zergfest, and thats why alot of other mmo's are dying out fast, all jobs do the same thing and all content is about doing as much damage as you can the fastest.

Read what I'm writing


It's that simple, a tank by definition is there to soak up the monsters most devastating attacks. If those attacks are MT large AoE's then again by definition they can not soak them up. You no longer have a "tank" and instead have a single gimp a$$ melee who's job can be done better by nearly another other melee.

[saevel]

If I had to distill everything we've been debating into a single statement showing the disconnect between our understanding of one another, it would be this previous statement. To me, it appears as though you want tanks to be able to not just be perfect at holding hate, but be the only players at risk of taking any damage. To you, it appears as though I want ADL's ability to use 4x terra slash and wipe the whole alliance to remain intact.

I do not. I've never said I want AoEs to remain the way they currently are. I want them changed too. But I don't want to cripple them to the point where they're no longer a part of the difficulty of a fight. I want there to be a large number of diverse and challenging ways to avoid AoEs. Sometimes you need to be close to the enemy, sometimes you need to be far, sometimes you need to run from the AoE because it has a tiny area of effect and a long chargeup, sometimes you need to stun the AoE, sometimes you need to be in front of, behind, or to the side of the enemy, sometimes there's no avoiding the AoE but it has horrible magic accuracy so a barspell will save you.



Apparantly there was no avoiding these moves of death, just like how the current system works. Therefore these moves would not be sanctioned by Yinnyth. If there's nothing that can be done to pre-empt, avoid, negate, stop, shrug off, or otherwise minimize the effects of a deadly AoE attack, then it needs to be fixed. If it's something crazy weak like bubble shower, then it's no big deal. If it's something crazy strong like Thundris Shriek, give us a work-around.

FFXI's battle system does not allow for complicated fights, it's rather old and archaic.


To me, it appears as though you want tanks to be able to not just be perfect at holding hate, but be the only players at risk of taking any damage. To you, it appears as though I want ADL's ability to use 4x terra slash and wipe the whole alliance to remain intact.

This is an incorrect interpretation. The *tank* should be the only one in danger of crippling massive damage, the kind of attacks that have DD's now packing 30~50% PDT / MDT gear sets. Average run of the mill damage is perfectly fine for melee's to get hit by, it forces the healers to do their job. If all the melee's are getting hit by massive devastating damage then there is no tank and they should be replaced by another DD.

We "zerg" in FFXI because it works and has the least moving parts. I see no one in this debate has even bothered to look up what KISS was and why it's so important in the engineering field. The things I mentioned were what is required to make tanking valid again, otherwise players won't even bother using a "tank" and will immediately return to zerging with melee "tanks". I can say this due to having played many MMO's and experiencing many different dungeon / boss battle systems, the problems FFXI faces are not unique to FFXI. Also WoW and DDO, the two other MMO's I'm extremely experienced with (DDO by far the greater of the two), are not "failing" their both thriving.

[Yinnyth]

We "zerg" in FFXI because it works and has the least moving parts. I see no one in this debate has even bothered to look up what KISS was and why it's so important in the engineering field.

I've heard even hillbillies say "Keep it simple, stupid." Engineers are nice and all, but only if they don't keep dropping their job title at every chance in order to display their superior intelligence to the filthy monkies they're speaking to.


I can say this due to having played many MMO's and experiencing many different dungeon / boss battle systems, the problems FFXI faces are not unique to FFXI. Also WoW and DDO, the two other MMO's I'm extremely experienced with (DDO by far the greater of the two), are not "failing" their both thriving.

*Willy Wonka*: Please, tell us, the FFXI fans more about how other MMOs are better. I'm certain you won't be tarred and feathered.

I have played other MMOs. They weren't for me. And none of them had magical tanks capable of keeping all of the hate all of the time and preventing any AoEs from ever touching their friends.


The things I mentioned were what is required to make tanking valid again

There are other ways to fix a broken system which don't involve eviscerating aspects of the game. You are correct, zergs get used because they're the simplest, fastest, most foolproof solution. The problem with zerging everything is that it's the same damned thing for every event in the game. This is the reason we want changes, yes? The solution you propose (even assuming it manages to dethrone zerging since zerging would still be a faster method) falls into the same trap. No way you're going to peel hate off the tank, and no threat of getting hit by AoEs? Just throw a tank at it and zerg, zerg, zerg!

Again: where is the strategy in your proposed changes? It's the exact same thing we've been doing the whole time, just with a tank instead of a SMN.

[saevel]

Now I'm positive your just trolling. Click and done.

[Sarick]

We "zerg" in FFXI because it works and has the least moving parts. I see no one in this debate has even bothered to look up what KISS was and why it's so important in the engineering field. The things I mentioned were what is required to make tanking valid again, otherwise players won't even bother using a "tank" and will immediately return to zerging with melee "tanks".

Wow, I mention KISS in another thread ad suddenly it becomes an argument aspect in another topic. It's viable here as well. Everyone is to busy arguing about how broken things are and no one is offering up REAL suggestions to fix the issues. Come on guys both of you are right if the system is balanced. The problem here is the creativity is spent more on argument then ingenuity.

If you have have a way to fix the problems you talk so highly about Saevel stop complaining about it and offer some solutions. Yinnyth has a few points as well but without example of how you'd fix things in detail the point of your argument falls short. I happen to agree with some of the things you've been saying. I also agree with the counter arguments Yinnyth brought up.

The point is, all the bitching is useless a method is created to balance things. It's like fanning an ice cube sitting in the sun on a hot day. In other words not going no where fast and the ice is still melting. Don't expect the Developers to fix things when they can't assume whats wrong in the first place. Sometimes you need to explain why it's broke and how to fix it before things can be understood.

[Yinnyth]

but without example of how you'd fix things in detail the point of your argument falls short

I can offer hundreds of crappy solutions. Hell, I have offered hundreds of crappy solutions to various problems over the years. None of them got used. You want me to take a stab at fixing tanking in general? Enjoy my unrefined first draft:

First, the whole enmity system would need an overhaul. One possible solution would be to split Cumulative Enmity (CE) and Volatile Enmity (VE) into seperate categories for seperate actions. So there'd be melee damage CE and VE, ranged damage CE and VE, magic damage CE and VE, cures delivered CE and VE, buffs delivered CE and VE, debuffs delivered CE and VE, and assorted CE and VE, and possibly even more specific categories for more diversity in monster behavior (such as fire damage CE and VE, or waltz CE and VE). Various enemies would be given certain enmity habits. One might hate magical damage, so his magic CE and VE would grow at an accelerated rate, and decay slower. In this case, use melees to damage him and have your tank magic burst off SCs in addition to his normal tanking duties. This forces you to specialize your tank depending on the foe you face, so tanking is more diverse from situation to situation. It also gives you the ability to specialize your DDs so they pull less hate (if hate builds quickly for melee attacks, switch to ranged and magic attacks and let your tanks be the melees)

Second, tanks would need to have their enmity grab abilities boosted, and gain additional abilities as well. Flash and stun should boost every category of VE, though mostly debuff VE. PLD and NIN should get a job trait which makes their magic bursts give a spike for all types of CE and VE. Provoke should be split into several types of provoke, each one targeting a specific type of VE to boost. Enmity + and enmity - from gear, merits, JAs, etc should not only factor into the raw amount of enmity gained, but the rate at which it decays as well. This would fix the issue with tanks being incapable of holding hate because a DD who does nothing but smack the enemy around is going to build nothing but melee CE and VE until they hit the cap while their tank should be keeping close to the cap on several types of CE and VE.

Third, boss fights need to have methods of outlasting zergs so the zerg sputters out and dies. Things like Dynamic Implosion can actually really help with this as long their damage isn't insane (which it is) and ADL doesn't eat your face while you're terror'd (which he does). So some enemies should be given the ability to pause battle, so to speak. They freeze everyone including themselves, they just stop taking damage altogether for 30 seconds, they vanish and teleport somewhere random, etc. Other enemies should just be given ungodly amounts of HP and DT-%. Other enemies should be given zerg protection in the form of DT-% which grows as you do damage to them, but decays over time. Other enemies could pull an Ultima and charge up citadel buster, but gain 95% damage resist while it's charging (forcing the zerg to run for its life). But it's important that there is a variety of ways that enemies prevent zergs, or things get boring. edit: I should mention that I think some fights should be left zergable, I just don't want zergs remaining the law of the land.

Fourth: AoEs need to be changed. They're too abundant and often times, they're the only thing making bosses difficult. Alliance-ending WSs like extremely bad breath, terra slash, dynamic implosion, fulmination, etc all need to be examined to make sure there is some method for survival which is not completely unwieldy or cliche. Some should have their area of effect changed so it's only the front 300º of the mob that gets hit, so the back 60º is safe. Others should have the mob give you some sign they're going to use it 10 seconds before they even charge it up. In short, reducing damage taken should not be ONLY the job of the tank and healers. It should be everyone's responsibility to help decrease the total damage the alliance suffers, and there should be several methods that several jobs can use to achieve that goal. And again, it should be different how that is accomplished from one fight to another.

This is a wall of text that no one is going to read and SE isn't going to implement, so it's largely moot if I give a suggestion or not. I'd rather stick to reading other peoples ideas and helping to strengthen their weak areas rather than waste my time giving trashy suggestions for how to fix the game. After all, a bad solution is worse than no solution at all.

[Arbole]

Hopefully, they can create content that requires more skill and less hacking.

[Prrsha]

Hopefully, they can create content that requires more skill and less hacking.

And less AFKing when leveling up.

[Prrsha]

Greetings!

Below is a message from Producer Akihiko Matsui in regards to the version update delay as well as his thoughts on game play. :)

First off, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart. It has been a long time since a dev has walked these halls and listened to feedback the way you do, yet still remain focused on the core of what FFXI is, and stands for.

Second, I hope this statement also applies to not only end-game but the process in between. If it does, I strongly look forward to the changes and revisions the future of FFXI has to offer. I am glad FFXI is getting the attention it deserves after such a long time and it stays true to the game it was designed to be at heart... A community where people of all nationalities can come together and experience a virtual world called Final Fantasy. To enjoy, progress and work together towards experiencing a common goal. The simple goal is the joy that you mentioned above that is felt when accomplishing something great, together as a team.

[Wystan]

Give the mob moves that aren't OMGWTF, fix enmity, give it massive -PDT, fix enmity, remove 30min timers on fights, fix enmity, make enfeebles worth something, fix enmity, increase damage bonus from SCs and MBs, and finally fix enmity. I think I covered most of the important issues that causes the current trend.

^This this X1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

[Schrute]

Give the mob moves that aren't OMGWTF, fix enmity, give it massive -PDT, fix enmity, remove 30min timers on fights, fix enmity, make enfeebles worth something, fix enmity, increase damage bonus from SCs and MBs, and finally fix enmity. I think I covered most of the important issues that causes the current trend.

this, a thousand times this.
fix enmity,
fix enfeebling
fix skillchains and magic bursting

much honor /bow

[Sarick]

I can offer hundreds of crappy solutions. Hell, I have offered hundreds of crappy solutions to various problems over the years. None of them got used. You want me to take a stab at fixing tanking in general? Enjoy my unrefined first draft:

First, the whole enmity system would need an overhaul. One possible solution would be to split Cumulative Enmity (CE) and Volatile Enmity (VE) into seperate categories for seperate actions. So there'd be melee damage CE and VE, ranged damage CE and VE, magic damage CE and VE, cures delivered CE and VE, buffs delivered CE and VE, debuffs delivered CE and VE, and assorted CE and VE, and possibly even more specific categories for more diversity in monster behavior (such as fire damage CE and VE, or waltz CE and VE). Various enemies would be given certain enmity habits. One might hate magical damage, so his magic CE and VE would grow at an accelerated rate, and decay slower. In this case, use melees to damage him and have your tank magic burst off SCs in addition to his normal tanking duties. This forces you to specialize your tank depending on the foe you face, so tanking is more diverse from situation to situation. It also gives you the ability to specialize your DDs so they pull less hate (if hate builds quickly for melee attacks, switch to ranged and magic attacks and let your tanks be the melees)

Very nice...

The whole idea of splitting enmity into multiple fronts would most definitely change how players get hate. Having Melee/Magic/Other Would allow melee to cap out hate rather fast in it's category but not effect magic, Where as magic nuking would only affect nuking. Others would be outside directly affecting the target IE buffs and cures on someone who had hate (including yourself) would raise this. The enemy would base their hate target on the average or of the three or average divisible by two for all these combined right? If so this would allow PLD and a few others to tank better because they could boost enmity on multiple fronts allowing for a much larger variances of hate while making it harder to cap total average hate. Others would be limited if they only utilize just using one or two of the hate utilities.

Very very very nice that's fostering better play.

Now that I think about it I think there could be another way to fix enmity by altering it so as hate increases the ability gain it decreases exponentially so it's nearly impossible to ever cap hate unless you use tools or abilities that deliberately bypass this.

If SE wants to fix the AOE issues PLD must have a better way to create an AURA of protection that actually last, with a short recast. Something like boost every 15 seconds that stacks on others. This means the tank would need to work protect everyone else. If PLD is so powerful now then this aura effect could even transfer a portion of the damage to the tank. It would definitely give players a reason to put a real tank back into the party.

[Rustic]

Honestly, you can put in forms of anti-zerg for mobs that can tolerate some punishment. Have mobs increase in their defenses when being hammered on- basically, every time the mob succeeds in a TP move, it also gains resistance to damage- the type and amount depending on how it took damage. If it's stunned, it gains (a lesser) amount of damage resistance, regardless of whether this interrupts a TP move or not.

Skillchains reduce the physical DR effect. Magic bursts reduce magic DR effect- the higher the skillchain level, the more physical DR removed, and the higher the skillchain a spell is MB'd off of, the more magic DR is peeled off the target along with it. Successfully landing enfeeblements reduces DR- depending on the spell and the Enfeebling skill of the caster. Spamming Dia won't do much to it's physical DR even with a top-notch debuffer, but landing an Addle with a high-level enfeeblement skill would chew huge chunks of magic DR away, or a Slow II physical DR. Skillchains and MB's ignore built up DR for the purposes of inflicting damage.

Voila, you've just curtailed zerging and given enfeeblement a new lease on life.

[Camate]

Hello!

Producer Akihiko Matsui responded to a couple of posts and I just wanted to share them with you. :D



Good evening, Matsui here.

As always, I continue to appreciate the number of posts you're making, so I'd like to respond to a couple of them.



While I understand adjusting the macro system would be difficult, the fact that we still need to use multiple macros that only contain 6 lines to change gear has gone unchanged. Wouldn’t this be one element of fostering skillful play? Tanaka spoke about enhancing the game with a clickable UI, but if we still need to click on multiple macros each time we want to cast a spell or execute a WS, I don't think you can call this an enhancement. I'd appreciate it if you could take a look at this.

While we mentioned that we had no intention of changing this in the macro thread awhile ago, I will have the development team take another look at this.

Please note that "take a look" doesn't mean it's a guarantee, so please don't get your hopes up; however, we will take a look into this considering the current and future conditions and inform you of any updates.



While I am happy when I am rewarded for playing well, even when I don't get a reward when I can't clear floor 100 of neo-Nyzul, I still enjoy it even when I feel the sting of defeat. I also think there is dramatic fun in the FINAL FANTASY series and fun interacting with other human beings in FINAL FANTASY XI.


I'd like everyone to take "fostering skillful play" to also include being challenged with the process of strategically thinking even if you are not successful.

There are some aspects of the game that "fostering skillful play" cannot really describe, such as the fun of the story or the enjoyment of being involved in the community. I would like to continue to make FFXI and placing an importance on this kind of fun.




We have a lot of things we want to ask you, Matsui!
So I propose you do a live stream with Mocchi!


I'm not too good at speaking and I often get stuck on words.
Oh, but then again, if Konishi or Emily were the emcee, I don't think I could refuse. ><

But jokes aside (though I'm half serious), I have been talking to Mocchi and saying it might be good to begin doing something like the FFXIV Letter from the Producer to start out with.




The recent version update had a lot for both hardcore players and casual players. I really like the direction since you’ve come back, Matsui.


I'm very thankful for the kind words, but it wasn't I who conducted the version update, it was the entire development team that planned and selected the content.

As much of the staff is too busy to post on the forum, I am posting on all of their behalves.
With that said, I will be sure to deliver the message to the development team.
Thank you very much.

[FrankReynolds]

While we mentioned that we had no intention of changing this in the macro thread awhile ago, I will have the development team take another look at this.

Please note that "take a look" doesn't mean it's a guarantee, so please don't get your hopes up; however, we will take a look into this considering the current and future conditions and inform you of any updates.

I would be interested to know what is behind this. Assuming that the developers are aware at this point that a huge percentage of the population already have access to unlimited lines in their macros...

Do they think it's just not worth developing because a suitable solution already exists (spellcast)? I would hope that if this is the case, they could at least copy / purchase spellcast to make it official.

Or do they just not think that enough people want it?

I certainly hope they aren't still burying their heads in the sand and pretending that spellcast isn't an issue (the download page says it has been downloaded almost 100,000 times).

[Riggs]

o god please no clickable UI, if i wanted that crap i'de be playing 14

[Camiie]

While I won't be so arrogant as to ask for a reply to any of my own points, it'd be nice if Matsui would reply to some comments from the NA thread.

[Cowardlybabooon]

o god please no clickable UI, if i wanted that crap i'de be playing 14

As long as you don't have to click it then I'm okay with that, but I simply don't see how anyone could play this game well if they are even touching their mouse for anything other than clicking a summoner's avatar in a crowd of dynamis goblins.

Regarding the macro lines thing, FrankReynolds above couldn't be more correct. It seems fairly clear that spellcast and windower scripts are tolerated or relatively undetectable by the special task force, and while there is already quite a bit of sharing of scripts that goes on in the underworlds of pastebin, it would really just be better if we could get an official statement that it is okay to use certain tools and we could really expand the quality of them (precedent: it didn't ruin World of Warcraft). SE obviously puts gear into the game that is intended to be macroed in for weaponskills or even specific weather effects, yet they act like people are using 4 macros for one gear swap. We are not saying that you have to be responsible for updating the program or tailoring your updates to avoid crashing windower, but you could just announce that you're not going to be banning people if they talk about it openly.

[Twille]

As long as I still have the option of using my gamepad with this new "clickable UI", i'll be ok.

[Jerbob]

I would just like to point out that some people are still desperately waiting for SE to fix the macroing system. It's not really relevant whether there are third party tools or not - not everyone can use third party tools, and not everyone WILL use them, even if they can. I don't want to turn this into a debate about such things, but please be aware that, even if a macroing fix would not directly benefit you, it has the potential to massively enhance many players' enjoyment of the game. Surely that is something positive?

[Prrsha]

While I won't be so arrogant as to ask for a reply to any of my own points, it'd be nice if Matsui would reply to some comments from the NA thread.

It takes time to translate. He's adressing both forums at once but there is a delay in the NA forums due to that. I am sure he will respond once he fully translates all of the posts here and then composes a response in english.

I've been hopping to the JP forums to post, I find it easier to read the posts there then to post in japanese however, but I try.

[Prrsha]

I would just like to point out that some people are still desperately waiting for SE to fix the macroing system. It's not really relevant whether there are third party tools or not - not everyone can use third party tools, and not everyone WILL use them, even if they can. I don't want to turn this into a debate about such things, but please be aware that, even if a macroing fix would not directly benefit you, it has the potential to massively enhance many players' enjoyment of the game. Surely that is something positive?

There is a massive discussion going on in the Japanese forums right now on that very matter. As is the problem with inventory space.

[Jerbob]

That's really good to hear, actually, thanks. :)

[SpankWustler]

As is the problem with inventory space.

Go, Japanese FFXI-players, go! My hopes and dreams rest upon your dorky shoulders! Imagine 100 inventory slots as a ten-year-old girl with pig-tails and PURSUE THAT DREAM! Fight for it! Go!

[Prrsha]

Go, Japanese FFXI-players, go! My hopes and dreams rest upon your dorky shoulders! Imagine 100 inventory slots as a ten-year-old girl with pig-tails and PURSUE THAT DREAM! Fight for it! Go!

It's more about having more macro slots, more then anything. Matsui is saying that is not in the near agenda but is being looked into for later.

PS Is one of the dogs in your sig from Mega Man 3 btw? :3

Edit: double post

[Alhanelem]

o god please no clickable UI, if i wanted that crap i'de be playing 14
You don't have to use it if you don't like it. The standard UI will still be available, and it's PC only. It's something people have been asking for for a long time.

[SpankWustler]

It's more about having more macro slots, more then anything. Matsui is saying that is not in the near agenda but is being looked into for later.

PS Is one of the dogs in your sig from Mega Man 3 btw? :3

That's understandable. People who have found a way to cope with the current macro system can't come right out and make an argument like, "It isn't possible to use a third party program to fix the issues I have with inventory space, so please prioritize that if you have to pick a difficult issue to wrestle with." Looking at FFXI right out of the box, the six-line macros are the most ridiculous part of the interface.

Yeah, the mechanical dog towards the middle is Rush. Treble, however, is absent.

[Kraggy]

I would be interested to know what is behind this. Assuming that the developers are aware at this point that a huge percentage of the population already have access to unlimited lines in their macros...
This is the infuriating thing, pretty much anyone playing knows how to cheat to get a macro system that works very well, but SE continue their ostrich-like stance on the matter.

[Rambus]

Can there be more details on how Fostering Skillful Play will be done? I felt that was lost when Aht Urhgan came out. Some of the new nms that came after that was interesting as there is a few of them that could qualify as Fostering skillful play but overall I feel that was lost when AU and beyond came out. Everyone and their mother have emps and relics and jsut plows though everything. Anything that is remotely "hard" revloves around "zerging"

Then there is the problem of the stuff that is challenging does not give reward equal to effort.

[Rustic]

I would just like to point out that some people are still desperately waiting for SE to fix the macroing system. It's not really relevant whether there are third party tools or not - not everyone can use third party tools, and not everyone WILL use them, even if they can. I don't want to turn this into a debate about such things, but please be aware that, even if a macroing fix would not directly benefit you, it has the potential to massively enhance many players' enjoyment of the game. Surely that is something positive?

I'd like to think about it this way. We have third-party systems that have become effective parts of the game- not so much as "hacks", but simply as quality of life upgrades- "windower" programs being a biggie, extended macroing systems another. If they're officially tolerated, then the next step should be finding ways to make them intergrated with FFXI in ways that both the dev team and players would find appealing. That this would also mean those 3PP's no longer worry so much about being broken repeatedly with updates.

Alternatively, take what IS acceptable from these programs and intergrate it, then simply watch the game data. There are things that extended macroability make doable that no person using the basic UI could manage. Note that in the process, you'd also have to redo a lot of higher-end mobs that have been balanced against players who commonly use said programs.

We live in an interesting world in Vana'diel- where PC players have always had a bit of an advantage due to the ease of client-side customization, even if such actions are against the TOS, they're often effectively undetectable in a direct fashion.

[Jerbob]

I'd like to think about it this way. We have third-party systems that have become effective parts of the game- not so much as "hacks", but simply as quality of life upgrades- "windower" programs being a biggie, extended macroing systems another. If they're officially tolerated, then the next step should be finding ways to make them intergrated with FFXI in ways that both the dev team and players would find appealing. That this would also mean those 3PP's no longer worry so much about being broken repeatedly with updates.

Alternatively, take what IS acceptable from these programs and intergrate it, then simply watch the game data. There are things that extended macroability make doable that no person using the basic UI could manage. Note that in the process, you'd also have to redo a lot of higher-end mobs that have been balanced against players who commonly use said programs.

We live in an interesting world in Vana'diel- where PC players have always had a bit of an advantage due to the ease of client-side customization, even if such actions are against the TOS, they're often effectively undetectable in a direct fashion.

It would be wonderful if SE would take these things on board and integrate them, certainly. I would take issue with the idea that they are simply a quality of life addition, though - as you've said, they have a direct impact on a player's capabilities and so represent something quite different to something like the official windowing program or something like dat modding a piece of gear that you find repulsive.

[Godofgods]

I would actually have to agree with the majority on this one. The macro system is messed up. Personally i never liked the idea of gear swapping in the middle of battle anyway, but SE has decided to move in that direction by creating tons of equipment with stats that serve for just that purpose.

But moving in that direction and then limiting macro's are counter productive of each other. If your playing legitimately, and you have a full gear swap, your looking at around 3 macros. Then a WS macro. Then 3 more macros to get back to what you had. Thats insain. It takes almost an entire book of macros to do a single action.

The botting argument for not wanting to increase macro space never made much sense to me either. (Unless you increased it to like 2000 lines lol) The macros are very simplistic. Its not like you can use an IF - THEN inside one. And if it were increased to 15-20 lines, its still not like u could press a macro and come back in 6 hours and see your character still at it. Alls that does is decrease the amount of times i have to press the key on my keyboard while I'm sitting here forever.

Last point is that the majority of the player base already uses some form of increased macros or spell casts. People that don't use them (like me) are very hard to find. Which means the only ppl really hurting from this are those that are 'playing by the rules'. And thats a pretty bad way to act towards those players that are paying for this.

[Rustic]

It would be wonderful if SE would take these things on board and integrate them, certainly. I would take issue with the idea that they are simply a quality of life addition, though - as you've said, they have a direct impact on a player's capabilities and so represent something quite different to something like the official windowing program or something like dat modding a piece of gear that you find repulsive.

That's basically what I'm saying. Third party programs are a slippery slope. Some are simply cosmetic changes, others give a discernable advantage only at high levels of play, still others are outright cheatware (such as noclip capacity letting you bypass doors and such).

The first is a gold mine of pointers to upgrades to FFXI proper, the second mark things that need to be said "This is OK, this is banworthy" and the former seriously considered for work., and the third need to be examined in detail for how they break the game, the exploits destroyed with prejudice, and the players using them chewing on a big ol' LM-17 or worse.

Heck, I've been wondering for years when they'd add optional .DAT file DL's as a way of giving specific clients graphics upgrades without leaving PS2 users in the lurch. Doesn't hurt the gameplay, makes the PC/XBox interface a prettier thing to look at.

[Mirage]

And that's why obvious gameplay enhancements should be part of the official client, so that people didn't get into a situation where "gameplay enhancement" is literally a key press away from "see through walls"

[Prrsha]

I agree with all 3 of you. Another angle to look at this too is that console users have no access to 3rd party utilities. Should PC users have an advantage over other players in the same MMO? SE doesn't think so I'd assume, with the recent changes to the fishing system.

But yeah. It has been a pain in the tush playing legit on a PC over all of these years.

[detlef]

Should PC users have an advantage over other players in the same MMO? SE doesn't think so I'd assume, with the recent changes to the fishing system.Funny thing is SE was addressing an advantage that console users had over PC users.

[Caliana]

I would fully support an upgraded dat pack for pc/whatever. Even if I had to pay for it.

[Prrsha]

Funny thing is SE was addressing an advantage that console users had over PC users.

Yep, they are trying to fix the problem and even the playing field. Their motto has always been that the gameplay advantages should be the same on all systems. I don't see that changing unless someday they just drop support for x-box and PS2.

It would explain why they really didn't care much about the windower, but they did to plugins that the windower had (even the ability to see other player's TP).

[Prrsha]

I would fully support an upgraded dat pack for pc/whatever. Even if I had to pay for it.

I'd like upgraded graphics, but to pay for it, no. I worry it would quickly turn into Sims3 where people buy optional content that makes things look pretty every month or so as more mobs/data is added.

[Phogg]

I'd like upgraded graphics, but to pay for it, no. I worry it would quickly turn into Sims3 where people buy optional content that makes things look pretty every month or so as more mobs/data is added.

I wouldn't pay for it by itself, but if it were part of a legit expansion similar to how WoW was upgraded I would be on board.

[Prrsha]

I wouldn't pay for it by itself, but if it were part of a legit expansion similar to how WoW was upgraded I would be on board.

I agree. One nice expansion that changes all of the existing skins for the PC would be great. I can imagine it being something like the Blue Shift expansion that was available for Half-Life 1.

[Rambus]

I would actually have to agree with the majority on this one. The macro system is messed up. Personally i never liked the idea of gear swapping in the middle of battle anyway, but SE has decided to move in that direction by creating tons of equipment with stats that serve for just that purpose.

But moving in that direction and then limiting macro's are counter productive of each other. If your playing legitimately, and you have a full gear swap, your looking at around 3 macros. Then a WS macro. Then 3 more macros to get back to what you had. Thats insain. It takes almost an entire book of macros to do a single action.

The botting argument for not wanting to increase macro space never made much sense to me either. (Unless you increased it to like 2000 lines lol) The macros are very simplistic. Its not like you can use an IF - THEN inside one. And if it were increased to 15-20 lines, its still not like u could press a macro and come back in 6 hours and see your character still at it. Alls that does is decrease the amount of times i have to press the key on my keyboard while I'm sitting here forever.

Last point is that the majority of the player base already uses some form of increased macros or spell casts. People that don't use them (like me) are very hard to find. Which means the only ppl really hurting from this are those that are 'playing by the rules'. And thats a pretty bad way to act towards those players that are paying for this.

That is what I do and if you want insane look at my blm. (keep in mind it was 75 game so no hmp rings)

Hit 2 buttons to rest, then two buttons to lower hp. then two more buttons to be in my nuking power set. (line 9)

Scroll down to line 4 for each element ( line 4 for level 4 spells) then next to the 6 spells is a "god gear" switch for substituting elemental skill and some over stuff the power set used in line 9. Of course in practice I got good at hitting all these buttons, as soon as i stopped resting i would hit my lower hp trigger and gear up macros, then hit the spell and then if i needed the god gear button I would hit that while the spell is casted.

There is a simple solution to fixing this. If SE does not like windower ( and I really hate that I am the only one on PC that does not use those 'cheats' and yet Se lets them get away with it (So why have the salavge bans? that was wrong to do since it is a hypercritical stance)

Sorry for the off tangent, the simple solution is STOP MAKING SITUATIONAL GEAR TO GET PEOPLE TO DO OUTDATED CONTENT. This game is not programmed properly to reasonably make it a necessary of changing 15 slots of gear.

Part of me likes the idea of having situational gear as it reflects the person knows what they are doing. FFXI is not programmed properly to fully support such an idea however.

[Rustic]

I wouldn't pay for it by itself, but if it were part of a legit expansion similar to how WoW was upgraded I would be on board.

This. Basically, either as something similar to the mini-expansions or as a graphics update that goes with SoA or the expansion after it. Polishing the graphics files for modern-era systems would allow PS2 play to continue while helping to bring the look of the game closer to current-day standards. I'm not expecting FFXIV-level graphics upgrades, but any DAT remodeler can tell you that there's room to improve- and since graphics are client-side files, they can be made to have more "oomph" without mucking with the essentials. Goodness knows there's plenty of folks out there already playing with fan-made graphics files to do so as it is.

[Rustic]

Sorry for the off tangent, the simple solution is STOP MAKING SITUATIONAL GEAR TO GET PEOPLE TO DO OUTDATED CONTENT. This game is not programmed properly to reasonably make it a necessary of changing 15 slots of gear.

Part of me likes the idea of having situational gear as it reflects the person knows what they are doing. FFXI is not programmed properly to fully support such an idea however.

Gearswap is indeed one of the primary reasons the FFXI-standard UI is considered flawed. Late-game play strongly encourages changing outfits on-the-fly. I can, however theorize a solution to this that would be doable under the PS2-level programming, and indeed would increase console player functionality.

Add a "dressup" button to the menu, similar to the macros one. Start it with 20 buttons, labeled 1-20 that can be renamed as the player likes. Dressup would be linked to macros- there'd be a "dressup" for each set. When a button is selected, you can either have it Copy, Paste, Delete, Gear, Show. C/P/D work like a regular macro. Gear takes a snapshot of whatever you're wearing at the time and saves it to the button in question. Show displays the saved equipment layout for that button. By this method, you would be able to save gear configurations for whatever you desire to go with a macro set and use them.

Then add the /dressup command. /dressup (number) will attempt to equip you in the gear saved in that button to the best of it's ability, skipping anything you don't actually have in inventory. This command can then be placed in macros, allowing you to macro in full gear swaps, just like people with extended-macro layouts for PC's can do.

Voila, you've just done wonders.

[Afania]

Sorry for the off tangent, the simple solution is STOP MAKING SITUATIONAL GEAR TO GET PEOPLE TO DO OUTDATED CONTENT. This game is not programmed properly to reasonably make it a necessary of changing 15 slots of gear.


This, seriously, if the game doesn't have this many jobs and situational gears, more than half of the content will be dead by now XD

[Prrsha]

Add a "dressup" button to the menu, similar to the macros one. Start it with 20 buttons, labeled 1-20 that can be renamed as the player likes. Dressup would be linked to macros- there'd be a "dressup" for each set. When a button is selected, you can either have it Copy, Paste, Delete, Gear, Show. C/P/D work like a regular macro. Gear takes a snapshot of whatever you're wearing at the time and saves it to the button in question. Show displays the saved equipment layout for that button. By this method, you would be able to save gear configurations for whatever you desire to go with a macro set and use them.

Then add the /dressup command. /dressup (number) will attempt to equip you in the gear saved in that button to the best of it's ability, skipping anything you don't actually have in inventory. This command can then be placed in macros, allowing you to macro in full gear swaps, just like people with extended-macro layouts for PC's can do.

Voila, you've just done wonders.

The dressup idea has oddly enough been mirrored on the Japanese forums. It has gotten some feedback in the positive manner from the developers. It seems one of the main concerns of adding extra macro lines, is that RMTers will make elaborate bots with large strings of commands (or so the dev were saying there). A Japanese player mentioned the above solution, just like you and it got a positive remark from Matsui and the rest of the population.

Next on the list they are discussing now is the role of Dark Knight and zerging tactics. They want more skill to the bosses instead of the "kill it as fast as you can" mantra. Another topic under discussion is the exploitation of exp chains. Exp chains were meant to be a reward for players who through team work, killed mobs faster by pulling quickly and defeating them one at a time. They see the current AoE mass slaughter of gaining exp chains as an exploit to skillfull gameplay (be it by magic AoE spells or AoE WSes). They are debating ways to take that option off of the table.

[FrankReynolds]

The dressup idea has oddly enough been mirrored on the Japanese forums. It has gotten some feedback in the positive manner from the developers. It seems one of the main concerns of adding extra macro lines, is that RMTers will make elaborate bots with large strings of commands (or so the dev were saying there). A Japanese player mentioned the above solution, just like you and it got a positive remark from Matsui and the rest of the population.

Perhaps you could mention that no RMT in his right mind would choose to use the in-game macro system over spellcast anyways? I doubt that changes to the macro system would have any effect whatsoever on RMT activities.


Next on the list they are discussing now is the role of Dark Knight and zerging tactics. They want more skill to the bosses instead of the "kill it as fast as you can" mantra.

I'm fine with spending an hour killing one monster if that monster has an incredibly high drop rate. If they leave drops how they are now and increase the difficulty of content though, they might as well just turn the lights off.


Another topic under discussion is the exploitation of exp chains. Exp chains were meant to be a reward for players who through team work, killed mobs faster by pulling quickly and defeating them one at a time. They see the current AoE mass slaughter of gaining exp chains as an exploit to skillfull gameplay (be it by magic AoE spells or AoE WSes). They are debating ways to take that option off of the table.


That is a dumb idea on so many levels, but I know you're not going to tell them that I said that. ;)

[Prrsha]

That is a dumb idea on so many levels, but I know you're not going to tell them that I said that. ;)

Eh, there are many schools of thought about this on the forums. Some agree, some don't. The dev is looking to foster more "skill" in gameplay. The Japanese aren't really complaining with most of their posts. They are offering suggestions instead of complaining in general. Matsui is going to get a translation of everything in this NA thread. Anything you post here, he will read... so if you want to tell them, now's the time. :3

The other forum is jumping from topic to topic with suggestions on improvement. There are some good ideas out there but seldom are asking for a nerf. They are asking for additions or slight changes to the current system. Nothing there is really drastic one side or another. There is also a topic on discussing the current leadership in FFXI and certain interviews from the press.

As for macros: でもマクロ増設には期待。(Expect macro expansion), so yeah, Matsui gets it.

[Caketime]

I would actually have to agree with the majority on this one. The macro system is messed up. Personally i never liked the idea of gear swapping in the middle of battle anyway, but SE has decided to move in that direction by creating tons of equipment with stats that serve for just that purpose.

I've always thought this was loltastic, they've even stated they were against it but have since moved in the opposite direction and yet refuse to address macro line limitations. I currently use 3 macros just to hit a 4th macro to use Ruinator, trust me when I say it's horrid. I play on Xbox though, so I guess I can't complain.

E: I didn't even mention my WHM macros. There are literally pages of them. :(

[Carth]

The Japanese aren't really complaining with most of their posts. They are offering suggestions instead of complaining in general.

This is because the Japanese forum is heavily moderated as the Admins there delete posts that are unrelated or off-topic. This is very unlike the NA as they let us run rampant until the end of time.

[FrankReynolds]

Eh, there are many schools of thought about this on the forums. Some agree, some don't. The dev is looking to foster more "skill" in gameplay. The Japanese aren't really complaining with most of their posts. They are offering suggestions instead of complaining in general. Matsui is going to get a translation of everything in this NA thread. Anything you post here, he will read... so if you want to tell them, now's the time. :3

The other forum is jumping from topic to topic with suggestions on improvement. There are some good ideas out there but seldom are asking for a nerf. They are asking for additions or slight changes to the current system. Nothing there is really drastic one side or another. There is also a topic on discussing the current leadership in FFXI and certain interviews from the press.

As for macros: でもマクロ増設には期待。(Expect macro expansion), so yeah, Matsui gets it.

Well in that case, I would love it if they made it so that people could form a 6 man group and get Exp. in outside zones at the same rate that they get it in Abyssea. I don't really think they should mess with AOE in abyssea though. People use that exp. as a lure to get people to hold pop sets or to make money etc. I don't think they should punish those people just because it's easier than weeding out the RMTs and increasing the Exp. gained from traditional groups.

[Rustic]

Well in that case, I would love it if they made it so that people could form a 6 man group and get Exp. in outside zones at the same rate that they get it in Abyssea. I don't really think they should mess with AOE in abyssea though. People use that exp. as a lure to get people to hold pop sets or to make money etc. I don't think they should punish those people just because it's easier than weeding out the RMTs and increasing the Exp. gained from traditional groups.

Depends. Truth is, people will go for whatever's clearly the best over a sustained period of time.

AoEing is currently that. Being able to do it in alliances that can handle exping (with huge exp multipliers) at high rates with minimal people just turned out broken, IMHO. I don't think it's going away, but I also think it damages the game when you're getting better rates with two-three people doing the work for 18 vs. six people doing it all for themselves.

[Rustic]

The dressup idea has oddly enough been mirrored on the Japanese forums. It has gotten some feedback in the positive manner from the developers. It seems one of the main concerns of adding extra macro lines, is that RMTers will make elaborate bots with large strings of commands (or so the dev were saying there). A Japanese player mentioned the above solution, just like you and it got a positive remark from Matsui and the rest of the population.

I'm not surprised. A lot of thoughts on UI get mirrored between player groups- it's just the language barrier (and until FFXI had it's own forums, a lack of easy direct communication) that means we get good ideas thought up in different ways towards the same problems.

[Prrsha]

Well in that case, I would love it if they made it so that people could form a 6 man group and get Exp. in outside zones at the same rate that they get it in Abyssea. I don't really think they should mess with AOE in abyssea though. People use that exp. as a lure to get people to hold pop sets or to make money etc. I don't think they should punish those people just because it's easier than weeding out the RMTs and increasing the Exp. gained from traditional groups.

I agree. My only adjustment I would advocate add to this would be to restrict Abyssea to level 75+. That would in effect get rid of leechers and foster 6 party development outside of Abyssea if they adjusted the AoE just a tad like for example, one idea: Make mobs highly resistant to AoE spam. Have non-abby (and non-BCNM/mission mobs) resist a large amount of damage after each AoE done. Give the resistance a cool down of 60 seconds or so. That way players can't spam AoEs to get massive chains quickly. They would be more inclined to incorporate other strategies along with AoEs to get the chains they desire. If the cool down isn't too long, it would still allow AoEs to help gain those chains, but more skill and timing would be needed to do it correctly.

[Prrsha]

What FFXI needs is an overhauled GUI that makes it as easy to find players to do the same quest with. This should also apply to finding an exp party. This feature should always be active. A player should always be see a list of quests I am on by searching. They should also see what quests I have selected that I need help with as well.

It would allow players to click on their quest they are on, click on a button to find a match for a quest, mission or PT and *POOF*. A list of players should appear. They could then click on a player and engage in a /tell. There should also be an option to go /anon as well.


松井です。

ご意見ありがとうございます。
ご指摘の点は、松井も重要なことだと考えています。

まだ、具体的な施策を提示できない状況ですが、
スタッフと共有して検討していきます。

（翻訳ありがとうございました）

Roughly translated: Matsui is.

Thank you for your comments.
The ideas you pointed out, I would say, are important.

But the situation is the same. We cannot provide information for the specific measures yet.
We will consider it, and have shared it with the staff.

(Thank you very much for the translation)

Edit: The forms are also asking for a way for NA players to type in Japenese text and visa versa easily.

[Toadie-Odie]

I think the main concern is that this statement actually does mean something and will be pursued half-way. So, we'll be forced to drive nails with the handles of screwdrivers or forcibly hammer in screws.

I share the same concern here.

In addition to that, I'm the kind of gamer that likes to tinker around with stuff and experiment. Nothing was ever more frustrating that to hear "why are you subbing that job?" even back in the old days. When I play solo you might see me doing all kinds of weird things just.. well because, but stick me in a party and I'm just a cookie cutter whatever like everyone else.

I would like to see that change. I would like to see more wiggle room for experimentation in ALL aspects of the game. Not just in main/sub choice, but in party build choices, and gear set choices.

New gear shouldn't always make previous gear obsolete. I wouldn't mind seeing new gear that was different but equivelant to what already exists. Heck I would even be happy with new gear that was just reskinned versions of old gear.

I would like to see Evoliths with more "oomph" to their buffs if you will and a wider variety. I liked the idea of making and customizing gear that fits your play style but was disappointed in the options the Evoliths provided. I was further disappointed in seeing that this system was more or less pushed aside.

When the Trial of the Magians came out I was disappointed to see that once you reach certain branch points of a path, you're stuck on them. I would like to see a series of trials added that were not linked in fixed paths, but rather having a max number of trials for a weapon and being allowed to choose the trial that you want. Such as making a weapon/armor with a minor PDT- buff with a MND+ and AGI+ boost (or any other combination) for example. Maybe even include trials that gave a minor boost in some job abilities. This will allow us to think, plan, and consider the path of the weapon/armor and the trials taken on for it. Gear like this would reflect the play style of the player. Learning how to build and use it would foster skillful play.

[Toadie-Odie]

There is a massive discussion going on in the Japanese forums right now on that very matter. As is the problem with inventory space.

Yes, thank you for the insight.

I sometimes wish the schools I went to had taught more than just French, Spanish, and Sign Language. Playing an international game like this makes the language barrier more apparent, frustrating, and daunting. It's little wonder that so many of the NA players, like myself, feel ignored or pushed aside.

I do however greatly appreciate the effort that goes into translating and reading ALL these posts.

[Toadie-Odie]

As for macros: でもマクロ増設には期待。(Expect macro expansion), so yeah, Matsui gets it.

That is awesome and very reassuring to know.

@FrankReynolds:


Perhaps you could mention that no RMT in his right mind would choose to use the in-game macro system over spellcast anyways? I doubt that changes to the macro system would have any effect whatsoever on RMT activities.

That was exactly my thought too. I can't believe RMT people aren't already using 3rd party programs to completely by-pass the current in-game macro system. What ever changes are made to the in-game macro system isn't going to have an impact on them other than maybe legit players can play on a more even ground. I can't see how that would be a bad thing. The more the legit players can do for themselves, the less the RMTs have to entice the community.

[Toadie-Odie]

This is because the Japanese forum is heavily moderated as the Admins there delete posts that are unrelated or off-topic. This is very unlike the NA as they let us run rampant until the end of time.

I'm not sure... it was my understanding that in Japan the focus is on the whole compared to the U.S. the focus is on the individual. With that in mind it makes sense to me that we see more group oriented thinking and suggestions on the Japanese forums than we do here in these forums. I'm not saying we Americans are selfish people, it's just that group oriented thinking is a rather alien process for many of us.

[Toadie-Odie]

The forms are also asking for a way for NA players to type in Japenese text and visa versa easily.

This would be incredibly helpful if they could it.

[Godofgods]

I've always thought this was loltastic, they've even stated they were against it but have since moved in the opposite direction and yet refuse to address macro line limitations. I currently use 3 macros just to hit a 4th macro to use Ruinator, trust me when I say it's horrid. I play on Xbox though, so I guess I can't complain.

Oh i no. I dont use windower so im stuck with the same methods. Some times it can rly take the run out of what ever you are doing.


E: I didn't even mention my WHM macros. There are literally pages of them. :(

Thats another reason i find it insulting that they said they wern't going to add two new macro books for the two new jobs. Saying that 'we have enough already' ><

[Prrsha]

Oh i no. I dont use windower so im stuck with the same methods. Some times it can rly take the run out of what ever you are doing.



Thats another reason i find it insulting that they said they wern't going to add two new macro books for the two new jobs. Saying that 'we have enough already' ><

The tone so far is: We feel that players have enough marco lines already BUT we are looking into a way to equip an entire armor/weapon set in a single macro. I don't know if the reasoning behind this is truly about RMT or it is being used as such as an excuse to say: We can't add more macro lines due to PS2 limitations but we are working a way for you to equip an entire set of gear in a single macro line.

I agree that something has to be done with the current macro system. It shouldn't take 4 macros to change an entire set of gear (making me invisible half of the battle). I am happy with the ideas floating around with the compromise they are making making to fix this thus far however.

[Toadie-Odie]

Yes, getting a one line gear set swap command would solve alot of the macro issues for so many people.