Aftermath: Level 3

[Ejin]

Currently, players are able to overwrite AM1 with AM2 and AM2 with AM3, but are unable to reapply AM3 until the full duration of AM3 wears off.

This especially hurts melee Mythic weapons, whose functionality derives from maintaining the AM3 effect. This has not been too troublesome, however, due to the ability to lock buff effects using npcs, ???s and Magian Specs. when we're forced to wait extended periods of time waiting for ??? to re-spawn.

Now that the ability to lock buffs will be taken away from us, I feel it would be fair to adjust AM3 for all weapons.

Simply making the AM3 effect similar to how Bard songs work, where half the duration of the effect must elapse in order to reapply the buff, would be a fair and reasonable adjustment to make. To get more extreme, the AM3 effect for all weapons could also be extended.

Thank you in advance for giving this post some serious thought. If the devs feel this is unreasonable, an explanation as to why would be much appreciated.

[detlef]

Yes please.

[AllenD]

Yes, great idea!

[Narb]

I completely agree with this.

[Tanama]

I am with the OP on this as well.

[Byrth]

I also agree and it would make them much more useful.

Bard song's don't require half the duration elapses, though. As long as you cast it with a longer duration, it should stick.

[Ejin]

Bard song's don't require half the duration elapses, though. As long as you cast it with a longer duration, it should stick.

I was aware you could pick a different song to reapply much faster, but if you want to reapply the same song/s, don't you have to wait until a certain duration passes?

Example: When casting songs with Troubadour/Nightingale, then locking those BRD JA, you have to wait about 3 minutes to pass on those songs(unlocked) until the exact songs can be recast on others(it'd have no effect on the locking brd, but would reapply on others).

[detlef]

Actually you have to wait till less than the base duration is remaining on the song (i.e. less than 2 minutes).

[Camate]

Hello,

While we definitely understand that making it possible to overwrite a level 3 aftermath would make it more convenient and ultimately stronger, the development team's stance is that they would like players to think about this aspect and use it strategically. If we were to make unconditional overwriting possible, it would enable the aftermath status to be maintained indefinitely by continuing to use weapon skills at 300 TP, and this is situation the development team does not wish to create.

[Byrth]

We can already do what you're describing and it is the only way to strategically use mythic weapons. It's just less convenient than if you made the adjustments suggested by the OP.

[Raksha]

Hello,

While we definitely understand that making it possible to overwrite a level 3 aftermath would make it more convenient and ultimately stronger, the development team's stance is that they would like players to think about this aspect and use it strategically. If we were to make unconditional overwriting possible, it would enable the aftermath status to be maintained indefinitely by continuing to use weapon skills at 300 TP, and this is situation the development team does not wish to create.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/112/480/OpoQQ.jpg

[Martel]

I'm not sure how we're supposed to do this any more strategically. It's hard to strategize around the random number generator.

When should you start building to 300% again? Well, depends... How many times will OA2~3 proc? In DRG's case, did they proc on jumps? There's no telling if you should start building at 30 seconds left, or at ~10.

You get a lot of multi-hit procs, and you end up holding 300% till AM3 wears, wasting potential DPS. You get too few, and AM3 wears before you hit 300% and you're stuck building the rest without it. Wasting even more DPS potential.

Overwriting would let you refresh AM3 when you get those procs, even if it's a bit early. It's also very frustrating when an NM fight starts when you've still got like 40 seconds on AM3 and 300% TP... And the party/alliance can't afford to wait on me. Do I hold TP, and waste DPS? Or do I risk not getting 300% again before it wears, and WS a few times? I'm not really the gambling type. -.-

Sooo, random number strategies anyone?

[Ejin]

Hello,

While we definitely understand that making it possible to overwrite a level 3 aftermath would make it more convenient and ultimately stronger, the development team's stance is that they would like players to think about this aspect and use it strategically. If we were to make unconditional overwriting possible, it would enable the aftermath status to be maintained indefinitely by continuing to use weapon skills at 300 TP, and this is situation the development team does not wish to create.

First off, thank you for taking the time to reply. It's nice to know our voices are being heard, and for that, I am grateful.

Sadly, I disagree with the stance the Devs are taking on this issue. When the majority of the content we enjoy is either running around from pop to pop, mob to mob; when the majority of content is waiting for ??? and the like to repop, where is the strategy? Our strategy WAS locking our AM3 effect in those down times, but now we have nothing to do but stand there while over 1/3 of the effect we just applied goes to waste.

[Sekundes]

I'm failing to see the issue here. It still costs 300% TP to refresh aftermath, that's a very big cost. The dev team is making it sound like being able to overwrite it gives you infinite AM3 at no cost to the player which is simply not the case... You blow 3 WS whenever you update aftermath and AM3 for any weapon has it's advantages and disadvantages already. Having to build 300% tp is exactly why mythic weapons are only viable for a handful of jobs.

[Nightfyre]

Hello,

While we definitely understand that making it possible to overwrite a level 3 aftermath would make it more convenient and ultimately stronger, the development team's stance is that they would like players to think about this aspect and use it strategically. If we were to make unconditional overwriting possible, it would enable the aftermath status to be maintained indefinitely by continuing to use weapon skills at 300 TP, and this is situation the development team does not wish to create.

What "strategy" is this promoting? Either you can maintain AM3 with a minimum of penalty or you change weapons, Ryunohige and Kenkonken aside. That's assuming you have a functional mythic to begin with (Ryunohige, Kenkonken, Kogarasumaru, maybe Conqueror and Glanzfaust?). Overwriting AM3 doesn't change that, and it doesn't even really affect how mythics fare vs their empyrean and relic counterparts given that most of them barely measure up even if you completely disregard the need to rebuild AM3 or the possibility of downtime eating into your AM3 time.

[Tamarsamar]

Doesn't the Empyrean "Occasionally does double damage" Aftermath already override itself? And at 100% TP, to boot?

Because if so, I'm not sure what's the big deal about making Mythic Weapons more viable. Altana knows they need it.

[Sekundes]

Doesn't the Empyrean "Occasionally does double damage" Aftermath already override itself? And at 100% TP, to boot?

Because if so, I'm not sure what's the big deal about making Mythic Weapons more viable. Altana knows they need it.

This is incorrect, they do not overwrite their own Tier anyway. AM1 will not overwrite AM1, AM2 will not overwrite AM2 and AM3 will not overwrite AM3 for ANY Empy or Mythic. What they will do is overwrite a smaller one. AM3 will overwrite AM2 and AM1. AM2 will overwrite AM1.

Also empy AM's are different based on the TP level. Each level gives more duration and a larger chance to proc.

Edit: I should note that the Empy aftermath is basically the same for each level, just stronger. While for Mythic each level does something entirely different. AM3 is the ONLY AM you'll ever want up as AM1 and AM2 are rather minor. And since they cannot coexist with AM3 and AM3 is what makes the weapons, the other levels are pointless. Keeping AM3 up though, is quite difficult for most jobs and those that can, still can't plan to time getting 300% tp perfectly as explained by Martel's post. So their, "Plan for it" is hilarious.

[Byrth]

Here's how I use Terpsi in practice right now with WHM Haste only:
* 300 TP WS -> melee for 2.5 minutes
* At 2.5 minutes, I stop WSing and rebuild 300 TP. Typically I No Foot Rise -> Reverse Flourish as well to get there faster.
* I get 300 TP right around 3 minutes, at which point I wait for AM3 to drop and reapply it.

Letting us overwrite would really just save me a few seconds of sitting there waiting for AM3 to fall before I can reapply when I get 300TP before it wears off. It won't really improve my damage potential very much. It'd just improve how smoothly I can play with a mythic. It's annoying to have to wait 5 seconds so your activation WS won't be wasted or, worse, the times when you don't think about it and end up wasting it.

It's not a very large buff and applies to a subset of weapons that aren't really a balance threat because they're so rare. I don't see the logic behind SE's response.

[Vagrua]

I don't see the logic behind SE's response.

The logic seems pretty simple to me. They don't want to waste the man power on fixing it since they believe it would be over powered with non-stop AM. Not to mention, I doubt they have time to include much in their current roadmaps for the next year or so. :rolleyes:

[Kincard]

Doesn't the Empyrean "Occasionally does double damage" Aftermath already override itself? And at 100% TP, to boot?

Because if so, I'm not sure what's the big deal about making Mythic Weapons more viable. Altana knows they need it.

IIRC, the AM effects of Relics, Mythics, and Empyreans arn't even the same buffs, so it's not like they'd even need to adjust the Empyreans or Relics if that was an issue.

Throw in another vote for them changing AM3. The only thing this would do is save a couple seconds of meleeing TP and make it more convienent for use, as Byrth mentioned. For almost all the mythics (Aside from DRG. PUP and...I think that's it. BLM, I guess? lol), the WS is garbage anyway, so wasting 300 TP on a mediocre WS is already a pretty big detriment.

[Byrth]

The logic seems pretty simple to me. They don't want to waste the man power on fixing it since they believe it would be over powered with non-stop AM. Not to mention, I doubt they have time to include much in their current roadmaps for the next year or so. :rolleyes:

You act like changing AM3 to overwrite itself is more than a 10 minute random job for an SE programmer. Somewhere there's a table of flags saying which buffs overwrite each other. Change one of the 0s to a 1 and you're done.

Also, again, we maintain AM3 either way. That's the only way Mythics are good.

[SpankWustler]

The Development Bros don't want people to be able to do what people currently do, maintaining the tier 3 aftermath constantly or almost constantly, which is the only viable tactic for making Mythic weapons perform in a competitive manner.

Instead, the aftermath should be used "strategically" as a result of "thinking about it", which means something that I'm not sure what it means. Let me think about thinking about it. Let me form a strategy for strategically strategizing like a strategist.

Let me...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XD-MTBT2Hdk/UBVrE8H8elI/AAAAAAAABs4/UKh86k0i_HI/s1600/Joker.jpg

[Tanama]

Hello,

While we definitely understand that making it possible to overwrite a level 3 aftermath would make it more convenient and ultimately stronger, the development team's stance is that they would like players to think about this aspect and use it strategically. If we were to make unconditional overwriting possible, it would enable the aftermath status to be maintained indefinitely by continuing to use weapon skills at 300 TP, and this is situation the development team does not wish to create.




Development Team: "We prefer mythic owners wait until the AM3 wears off rather than overwrite it because being able to overwrite your AM3 with a new AM3 is just way too convenient."

[Yinnyth]

Hello,

While we definitely understand that making it possible to overwrite a level 3 aftermath would make it more convenient and ultimately stronger, the development team's stance is that they would like players to think about this aspect and use it strategically. If we were to make unconditional overwriting possible, it would enable the aftermath status to be maintained indefinitely by continuing to use weapon skills at 300 TP, and this is situation the development team does not wish to create.

We're talking about endgame weapons here, right? Endgame weapons which take months (if not years) of grinding to obtain. More specifically, we're talking about mythics which take more work than empies or relics, and in most cases are a matter of magnitude weaker than their counterparts. You're afraid MYTHICS will become too powerful?

Empyreans just maintain tier 1 aftermath by spamming WSs as soon as they get TP. Yes, tier 1 aftermath on empyrean overwrites tier 1 aftermath. Empyreans are generally the strongest AND most readily available endgame weapons. Name an exception to this rule, and tell me why that job (drg, pup) doesn't deserve some help anyways. "Oh good, our PUP can keep OA3 on indefinitely now? Our enemies don't get enough TP anyways.... Remind me again... why do we keep letting Steve come as PUP when he has useful jobs?"

Note: I'm not upset at the community reps at all. I know how hellish a customer service job is since you get to deliver ALL the bad news and have NO power to change company policy despite overwhelming feedback from customers. My rage is not directed at you, it's directed at whoever decides what is and is not overpowered.

[Afania]

We're talking about endgame weapons here, right? Endgame weapons which take months (if not years) of grinding to obtain. More specifically, we're talking about mythics which take more work than empies or relics, and in most cases are a matter of magnitude weaker than their counterparts. You're afraid MYTHICS will become too powerful?

Empyreans just maintain tier 1 aftermath by spamming WSs as soon as they get TP. Yes, tier 1 aftermath on empyrean overwrites tier 1 aftermath. Empyreans are generally the strongest AND most readily available endgame weapons. Name an exception to this rule, and tell me why that job (drg, pup) doesn't deserve some help anyways. "Oh good, our PUP can keep OA3 on indefinitely now? Our enemies don't get enough TP anyways.... Remind me again... why do we keep letting Steve come as PUP when he has useful jobs?"

Note: I'm not upset at the community reps at all. I know how hellish a customer service job is since you get to deliver ALL the bad news and have NO power to change company policy despite overwhelming feedback from customers. My rage is not directed at you, it's directed at whoever decides what is and is not overpowered.

I guess that's just what SE wanted: Welcome to FFXI, when hardest to obtain weapon like Mythic or afterglow are nothing but minor upgrade, and we intend to keep them weak ;)

[Byrth]

Again, it's really not much of a maximum potential upgrade. It just makes using the weapons feel like less work.