To Devs: Fix Blu

[Tennotsukai]

I figure I will try this again, but there are a lot of things broken on Blu these days that need to be looked at.

1. Fix Tourbillion, Barbed Crescent, as well as other completely broken spells that do not work. I remember hearing they were fixed on the test server a while back but nothing new. They are amazing spells...fix them.

2. Blu breath spells - horrible spells! Too much mp, too much casting time, too much recast time, very little damage.

3. Some horrible durations on spells make them never seen to be used. I'm looking at you Barrier Tusk and Orcish Counterstance. You guys said there was nothing wrong with them, but no one uses it so please fix this! Change the MP/cost if you have to. I think Barrier Tusk just needs to be at least 3 minutes up on par with phalanx, though, but that's me.

4. Our spells do nothing on harder content therefore no one Blu is useless on a lot of end game content. Please do something about this.

5. VW - Oh wow!!! Fix this! We have too many proc spells to equip and have absolutely no other job in VW but to proc. I never get invited anymore for VW on Blu because its now seen as a wasted space. A fix could be to allow us to utilize all spells just in VW or something minor that won't be overpowering. In fact, this won't be overpowering at all. I don't see why we can't use all our spells all the time and just equip spells for job traits and stats. Once again, that's just me thinking.

I hope this was helpful. I really love this job, and I can't wait till the new updates/expansions come out with newer spells and what not for this job.

If anyone has anything to follow up on this please do.

[doctorugh]

YES! Fix potentially useful spells (barbed crescent and tourbillion), the other minor spells that are broke (sandspin,ect) can wait. Do it BEFORE adding anymore broken spells.

Breath spells COULD be useful if they worked more like white wind (faster cast time AND relies on max HP rather than current HP). Also you need to make NM less resistant.
I couldn't agree more about buff spells like Orcish CS.
The last two are less important imo as VW is waning and we could work around endgame content if some of the above were fixed (ie tourbillion).

[Ophannus]

The low duration on our enhancing spells are designed to be short and sweet. On average, most of our enhancing spells are stronger than their white/black magic counterparts, but in return they last a shorter duration to compensate(few exceptions like Animated Wail). BLU won't ever get a Protect or Shell as a 30min buff spell, but in return we Cocoon(more def than protect) and Saline Coat/Magic Barrier(stacks with Shell). The style of BLU isn't to be a buffer but to be a combat mage so our enhancing spells are meant to be recast frequently in battle. 30 seconds is a bit low however I think 90 seconds or 2 minutes would be fair but 3-5min for a buff is a lot unless it has a higher MP cost or a UL spell. If they give us longer duration buffs they'd have to weaken them to white magic/black magic potency which is usually kinda low. BLU buffs are about efficiency, effect vs MP cost vs duration and for the most part, our enhancing spells are well optimized and skewed in BLU' favor vs other mage buffs. Of course I wouldn't mind paying double the MP for triumphant roar for double duration but for the mp cost, 1min of 15% attack isn't bad, it's just not worth the time to keep the spell up, though it's a decent prezerg buff.

[Tennotsukai]

The low duration on our enhancing spells are designed to be short and sweet. On average, most of our enhancing spells are spells are stronger than their white/black magic counterparts, but in return they last a shorter duration to compensate(few exceptions like Animated Wail). BLU won't ever get a Protect or Shell as a 30min buff spell, but in return we Cocoon(more def than protect) and Saline Coat/Magic Barrier(stacks with Shell). The style of BLU isn't to be a buffer but to be a combat mage so our enhancing spells are meant to be recast frequently in battle. 30 seconds is a bit low however I think 90 seconds or 2 minutes would be fair but 3-5min for a buff is a lot unless it has a higher MP cost or a UL spell. If they give us longer duration buffs they'd have to weaken them to white magic/black magic potency which is usually kinda low. BLU buffs are about efficiency, effect vs MP cost vs duration and for the most part, our enhancing spells are well optimized and skewed in BLU' favor vs other mage buffs. Of course I wouldn't mind paying double the MP for triumphant roar for double duration but for the mp cost, 1min of 15% attack isn't bad, it's just not worth the time to keep the spell up, though it's a decent prezerg buff.

Buffs that are stronger than the whm and blm version spells? Other than occultation, animated wail, battery charge, and magic barrier (shouldnt be overwritten by cure as,, momento mori, and maybe saline coat, all other spells are lackluster.

orcish counterstance costs very low mp to use. it needs to be double for double duration. the same goes for triumphant roar. barrier tusk has a terrible duration and father barrier is the worst spell ever.

cocoon is amazing! we need more spells like it...I don't want protect and shell. we get those from subbing other jobs. we should definitely have another version of triumphant roar that affects our spells to be utilized on tougher nms... or something similar like a stance.

also, since we're battle mages, shouldn't the casting times on some of these buffs be a bit quicker than they are?

[saevel]

Uhhhh what......


Buffs that are stronger than the whm and blm version spells? Other than occultation, animated wail, battery charge, and magic barrier (shouldnt be overwritten by cure as,, momento mori, and maybe saline coat, all other spells are lackluster.

So in other words, other then our best buffs our buffs aren't the best? If that's not circular reasoning ...

The only BLU buff that I have an issue with is Triumphant Roar being such a short duration, everything else is fine.

As for the rest of your complaints, go cry a river. BLU is one of the strongest if not the strongest job in the game. Out of all the things it can do it has only one weakness, super buffed zergs. In that scenario it being a 1H DW job is what hurts just like all the other 1H jobs.

Blue Mage is sitting in doing really well, no need to have SE go about f8cking it up. Though voidwatch procs are insane and need to be fixed ASAP.

[Tennotsukai]

Uhhhh what......



So in other words, other then our best buffs our buffs aren't the best? If that's not circular reasoning ...

The only BLU buff that I have an issue with is Triumphant Roar being such a short duration, everything else is fine.

As for the rest of your complaints, go cry a river. BLU is one of the strongest if not the strongest job in the game. Out of all the things it can do it has only one weakness, super buffed zergs. In that scenario it being a 1H DW job is what hurts just like all the other 1H jobs.

Blue Mage is sitting in doing really well, no need to have SE go about f8cking it up. Though voidwatch procs are insane and need to be fixed ASAP.

Obviously, you didn't read everything and just wanted to troll like an annoying, little girl. These are all complaints that have been brought up several of times by other players more focused about this job than me.

I understand other jobs need a stronger look at more than Blu, but if you read my whole post you would realize your comments, except the vw comment, don't equate to much but bull crap.

[Llana_Virren]

Obviously, you didn't read everything and just wanted to troll like an annoying, little girl. These are all complaints that have been brought up several of times by other players more focused about this job than me.

I understand other jobs need a stronger look at more than Blu, but if you read my whole post you would realize your comments, except the vw comment, don't equate to much but bull crap.

Each area addressed as "please fix" ignore the fact that other spells are already super powerful; and some would have to be reduced to keep BLU from being any more "overpowered" than it currently is.

BLUs spells are designed this way for a reason; the suggestion that BLU needs these fixes to be relevant in end-game content implies that BLU itself is broken (which really only applies to BLU not being played properly with discipline and dedication), and ignores the balance aspect.

This would most assuredly result in a nerf.

[saevel]

Obviously, you didn't read everything and just wanted to troll like an annoying, little girl. These are all complaints that have been brought up several of times by other players more focused about this job than me.

I understand other jobs need a stronger look at more than Blu, but if you read my whole post you would realize your comments, except the vw comment, don't equate to much but bull crap.

It's just you crying to make Blue Mage stronger when it's already one of the strongest jobs in the game. Might as well have WAR and MNK asking for more damage output.

Right now BLU is balanced on the edge of severe nerfage. Look what they did to Heavy Strike on the test server, would you like them to start doing that to other things to *balance* out certain abilities becoming stronger. For anything that doesn't involve a four song, double COR rolls, embrava super zerg rush Blue Mage crush's just about every other job in the game. The sheer scope and breadth of BLU's capabilities are staggering, it can do anything and everything. And not just do everything but do everything good, better then good in some places. It's damn near the omni-job in the proper players hands, and you want SE to make it stronger? That would result in a severe nerf shortly thereafter, or have you been missing all the nerfs they've been throwing around for the past 6+ months.

The absolute best thing that could happen is SE adds a few new spells for cheaper combos, reduces the voidwatch procs, and absolutely nothing else. Possibly a slight reduction to the effects of LCF to make BLU spells a bit stronger on harder mobs without making them stronger on trash.

[Tennotsukai]

where is prothescar when you need him....I know blu is good on a lot of mobs, but it still needs fixed. Blu is not overpowered... also, savael..you contradicted your original post by agreeing with me. I think you're just pissed cause I'm asking for 2 or 3 spells to have a higher duration in which SE has already said at least one spell does suck and the others they would have to think on.

This is mainly about spells guys. Completely broken spells that have potential, breath spells that are a waste of code, and just the pure lack of damage from spells on higher content keeping us from end content.

Blu will not get anymore nerfs. I promise... if they receive anymore I'll apologize and quit the game. I mean c'mon...are you guys seriously getting legion invites as blu?

[Llana_Virren]

This is mainly about spells guys. Completely broken spells that have potential, breath spells that are a waste of code, and just the pure lack of damage from spells on higher content keeping us from end content.


Poison 1 is a waste of coding after Poison II. Same with Bio 1. Dia 1. Cure 1-3. Protect/ra 1-4, Shell/ra 1-4, etc. This is what happens when a game is no longer "progressive" and becomes stagnant in old age. FFXI is not dying, but what you're seeing is gameplay engineering from when the game was actually played from Lv1-Lv75+endgame.

The argument about BLU spells being an issue doesn't work when you compare it to jobs like BLM or WHM. I don't remember the last time I casted a tier 1 nuke (tier 2 is the lowest as a proc) or tier 1 -ga, or Cures 1-3. Or Protect II. Or Boost-CHR.... Should these spells be removed just because they serve no purpose?

Yes, there are areas in BLU, like any job, which could be improved (cough, BLU procs, cough). But to suggest somehow that BLU needs to be fixed is simply wrong.

[Tennotsukai]

poison 1 and bio 1 get used once in your jobs life time. breath spells except for heat breath for proc neeeeever get used. all those spells that you listed can serve a purpose even though no one will utilize that purpose of boost chr (maybe with the newer jobs). breath spells had a purpose, but now are extremely resisted. would you ever use vapor spray? no... would you ever use bio 1? of course, though earlier on.

Hope you also know I am talking of Tourbillion and Barbed Crescent. They are broken.

oh and subbing those jobs you'll want to still use many of those spells you listed.

[saevel]

Tenn you do realize I play BLU almost exclusively whenever I'm not on WAR / DRK for zergs?

What your saying is "Blue Mage is broken cause these small minor things don't work right!"

Which is utter BS.

If you want to see broken go take a long hard look at RDM, BST, SMN, PUP, THF then DNC. SMN is still plagued by only being wanted for it's 2hr, though Squall is slowly changing that, but then they'd be wanted as a stun monkey. PUP and BST are horribly broken due to the mechanics that effect all pet jobs, though both are trying really hard to carve out functionality from a pile of sh!t. THF suffers from only being wanted as TH whore, same as for the past decade. DNC suffers from poor job design with timers. And RDM ... well RDM just doesn't exist anymore.

BLU is borderline overpowered because it does everything well enough to be acceptable. It has both Physical and Magical DD power, crowd control / enfeebling power, healing and status removal power, damage reduction / tanking power, and kiting / ranged damage power. It can do all of that and be very very good at it. SE knows this, they can see it. And if BLU becomes too powerful in any of those area's then SE can and swing the nerf hammer, which I don't think anyone here wants.

Best you can honestly hope for is SE not screwing with the job and letting it continue to be as awesome as it is.

[Llana_Virren]

poison 1 and bio 1 get used once in your jobs life time. breath spells except for heat breath for proc neeeeever get used. all those spells that you listed can serve a purpose even though no one will utilize that purpose of boost chr (maybe with the newer jobs). breath spells had a purpose, but now are extremely resisted. would you ever use vapor spray? no... would you ever use bio 1? of course, though earlier on.

Hope you also know I am talking of Tourbillion and Barbed Crescent. They are broken.

oh and subbing those jobs you'll want to still use many of those spells you listed.

During the good old days of actual parties and level ups and serious battles, those that used Bio were fools, plain and simple. The circumstances where Bio was more viable than Dia were so rare that you only used it when you were soloing something on RDM and needed the DoT damage, because the benefit to Dia on every DD was greater than the benefit of Bio for your (hopefully) 1 tank....

Poisonga? Yeah never needed that spell ever*.
Diaga? Nope*.

(*Note that until ToAU no mobs put up 3+ shadows with a single move; as a result mobs typically lost all shadows before this spell would be viable. So, in that regard, the usefulness of Diaga (or any quick-casting -ga spell) actually came later in the game.

Not every spell in the game needs to have a purpose; I don't see many BLUs Bomb-Tossing, but its certainly an emotional event for anyone who partied in the 'Dunes to be able to run around the zone and frag every one of those damned mobs.

[Yugl]

Poison 1 is a waste of coding after Poison II. Same with Bio 1. Dia 1. Cure 1-3. Protect/ra 1-4, Shell/ra 1-4, etc. This is what happens when a game is no longer "progressive" and becomes stagnant in old age. FFXI is not dying, but what you're seeing is gameplay engineering from when the game was actually played from Lv1-Lv75+endgame.

The argument about BLU spells being an issue doesn't work when you compare it to jobs like BLM or WHM. I don't remember the last time I casted a tier 1 nuke (tier 2 is the lowest as a proc) or tier 1 -ga, or Cures 1-3. Or Protect II. Or Boost-CHR.... Should these spells be removed just because they serve no purpose?

Yes, there are areas in BLU, like any job, which could be improved (cough, BLU procs, cough). But to suggest somehow that BLU needs to be fixed is simply wrong.

Way to miss the glaring flaws with your argument: The spells referred are the top-tier of their respective class and the test server's magic accuracy differs from the real server. What does the former mean? That means he's not complaining about a spell outclassed by later tiers of said spell. Your "progression" argument is irrelevant. What does the latter mean? That means there's either a flaw with the magic accuracy of the test server or the real server. In other words, a glitch. Given that the magic accuracy of said spells and weapon skills (Yes, this issue has implications beyond BLU), were greater prior and SE never mentioned a universal nerf to the additional effects of . . .



-Tourbillion (Add. effect: Defense down)
-Sandspin (Add. effect: Accuracy down)
-Barbed Crescent (Add. effect: Accuracy down)
-Hecatomb Wave (Add. effect: Blind)
-Tachi: Ageha (Add. effect: Defense down)
-Metatron Torment (Add. effect: Defense down)
-Onslaught (Add. effect: Accuracy down)
-Full Break (Add. effect: Accuracy, Attack, Defense, and Evasion down)
-Armor Break (Add. effect: Defense down)
-Shell Crusher (Add. effect: Defense down)
-Randgrith (Add. effect: Evasion down)
-Nightmare Scythe (Add. effect: Blind)
-Skullbreaker (Add. effect: INT down)


This would imply that the discrepancy between the real server and the test server is due to an error with the real server's magic accuracy rate.

[Tennotsukai]

savael, I think you are not getting it at all. tourbillion and barbed crescent are broke. we can all agree... this needs fixed. you already said we could take a fix to the level correlation to tougher mobs, lesser spells for proc, and I'm sure you should know, because you think that you're the best blu ever, is that blu breath spells get resisted way too much.

my main complaints you disagree with is something SE has agreed already to look at, spell durations on two or three spells and breath spells. So please, savael... you're just arguing because certain other jobs suck. blu is not broken but have completely wasted and broken elements.

Thank you, Yugl, for the explanation to Llana. According to Prothescar, whom I spoke with on this, you can't really compare tourbillion to poisonga.... skipping on some vulgarities as well.

people are blindsiding too much into all of this. blu is powerful in its own aspect that it is flexible but weak in all specific categories. we can nuke but we'll never be as good as blm. we can dd, lcm prevents us from being invited over two handed weapon jobs, we can tank never as good as a pld, and etc. blu is not overpowered... just flexible. this argument happens way too often on other forums. go check out bluegartr.

savael, you are completely right on those other jobs, and I do believe with this new producer and better communication with SE... things will improve, but my main objective here, on this blu forum, is to get out to SE what needs a good look at on blu and to fix what bugs still exist. You can start up a forum on those broken jobs somewhere else. I already did before, but like always, SE had no response. So please... stop trolling... thank you!

[Llana_Virren]

Way to miss the glaring flaws with your argument: The spells referred are the top-tier of their respective class and the test server's magic accuracy differs from the real server. What does the former mean? That means he's not complaining about a spell outclassed by later tiers of said spell. Your "progression" argument is irrelevant. What does the latter mean? That means there's either a flaw with the magic accuracy of the test server or the real server. In other words, a glitch. Given that the magic accuracy of said spells and weapon skills (Yes, this issue has implications beyond BLU), were greater prior and SE never mentioned a universal nerf to the additional effects of . . .



This would imply that the discrepancy between the real server and the test server is due to an error with the real server's magic accuracy rate.

2 things:
1. Not everything is supposed to be so useful as to matter at all, or even all the time. As I said specifically with Diaga and Poisonga: no purpose, not even at the level they are first available.

2. Discrepencies between the test server and live server do not inherently mean a glitch. The conditions and in some circumstances the mechanics are significantly altered.

More to the crux of the issue though; while some aspects of BLU need to be addressed, the job itself is not broken or in need of fixing.

[Mefuki]

No, the job itself is not broken but those spells and WS he listed, quite literally, are. As in, they don't work like they're supposed to or as their descriptions say they do. I dont think it's unreasonable to want them fixed, do you?

[Yugl]

2 things:
1. Not everything is supposed to be so useful as to matter at all, or even all the time. As I said specifically with Diaga and Poisonga: no purpose, not even at the level they are first available.

2. Discrepencies between the test server and live server do not inherently mean a glitch. The conditions and in some circumstances the mechanics are significantly altered.

More to the crux of the issue though; while some aspects of BLU need to be addressed, the job itself is not broken or in need of fixing.

Diaga is utilized even at 99 (ex: Odin v2 adds, gather mobs for magian trials, or generic gathering of mobs), so how you manage to classify diaga as a "purposeless" spell is questionable. As for your second point, the fact that there's a discrepancy between the test server and the real server regarding magic accuracy of a mix of weapon skills and blue magic highly suggests that the discrepancy is unintended. The OP isn't referring to a set of spells introduced with full magic accuracy and initially implemented on the real server with varying accuracy. We're talking about spells and weapon skills that have behaved normally for years, saw reduced magic accuracy on the real server, saw normal magic accuracy on the test server as a result of a following update, and subsequently never transferred that regained magic accuracy to the real server. In short, there's no reason for the discrepancy between the two servers. If the intention is to nerf magic accuracy, the test server should reflect that.

Finally, the fact that these magic accuracy discrepancies have implications for weapon skills BLU may not access inherently suggests this matter is beyond BLU itself. Thus, your last comment is utterly irrelevant for the matter. Diaga and Poisonga do what their description says. They inflict dia/poison to targets within a range. Spells and weapon skills that don't carry out their description either have poor descriptions or glitched mechanics. The fact that they have worked in conjunction with these mechanics for years indicates the latter is the likely scenario.

[Metaking]

well one major difference between his post and yours llana is at least every spell you mentioned was at one point useful, and some are useful from subs, blu has tons of spells that were never useful outside of procs, and blu has alot of spells if they scaled better ( like icebreak or maelstrom ) that would not even remotely over power the job but would give it a few extra toys. Now in reference to are buffs i think all blu buffs should be 3 or 5 mins(with maby are blinks brought up to 10), as well as diffusion brought down to 5 mins, that was any blu could keep 1 5min buff up on there party full time, and one that goes the diffusion path(+relic boots) could also keep up a 3min one for 5 mins on there party

ps if se buffed eyes on me and mysterious light to match there mana cost, boost chr might have a use >.>..... maybe

[saevel]

Barbed Cresent isn't broken, it has a use. It makes Dual Wield III.

Tourbillion is one of those spells that if it worked, then BLU would shortly be nerfed. It's -33% Defense down which is BEYOND broken.

You want to know how *broken* that is?
100/(100-33) = 1.4925. That makes it the equivalent of a 49.25% attack bonus for every attack, including Blue Magic spells and pet attacks.

Where as Dia III is 15%, Angon is 20~25% and Bilgestorm is ~25%. Defense down scales like Haste does.
15% is a 17.6% attack bonus, 20% is a 25% attack bonus, 25% is a 33.33% attack bonus.

Now the prime reason Blue "magic" type spells don't work is that they are not magic nukes, their magic weapon skills. And like most magic weapon skills their all whacked out when it comes to balancing fINT (fMND / fCHR) and MAB. There are a few spells though that are fairly good damage for their MP cost when compared to BLM nukes. Dark Orb, Everyone's Grudge and Wind Breath all can put out nice damage but require staves and other "mage" type gear. Because they tend to be balanced along the same lines as BLM spells (Thunder IV is 171 MP, Thunder V is 294 MP) their cost looks outrageous to a BLU who's used to using cheap physical spells. Then you have the grand daddy of them all, Charged Whisker at 183MP and it can do more then Thundaja which is 396MP.

Most magic spells prior to 75 are useless just as most magic WS's prior to 80~85 are useless. You don't see people running around using Seraph Blade, Red Lotus Blade, Cyclone, Shadow of Death, or Raiden Thrust.

Right now what I keep seeing is people complaining because some minor spell is sh1t and they want all 100+ Blue Magic spells to be useful and functional. I'm sorry but that's OP, if everyone BLU had worked "the way it should" then SE would nerf the sh1t out of this job. Tell me one area that Blue Mage can't be a bad ass in? The only two I can think of are primary DD during a 60s super zerg fight, and primary healer for legion type super events.

As for Proth .. considering he shot his own argument into the ground when he demonstrated BLU being 2~7% behind a MNK in damage output while illustrating that the only problem with BLU's *damage* was the common 2.0 pDiff limit that all 1H/MA players face. So now there is a job with nearly as much firepower as a MNK yet infinitely more utility. And people here say it's "Broken and needs fixed".

[Kysaiana]

If something is "broken" as in "doesn't work on anything ever" it should be fixed no? Gooey Gerard's Corrosive Oose is also 33% def down. Now, I have no idea if this ever lands on "hard" content but suffice to say it probably lands on too weak mobs. Tachi: Ageha is 30% def down but of course that also doesn't land on the normal servers either.

These add. effects should be subject to resists of course, but something sightly higher than 0% acc on anything seems reasonable, especially since SE never said they're working as intended on the real servers.

[saevel]

If something is "broken" as in "doesn't work on anything ever" it should be fixed no? Gooey Gerard's Corrosive Oose is also 33% def down. Now, I have no idea if this ever lands on "hard" content but suffice to say it probably lands on too weak mobs. Tachi: Ageha is 30% def down but of course that also doesn't land on the normal servers either.

These add. effects should be subject to resists of course, but something sightly higher than 0% acc on anything seems reasonable, especially since SE never said they're working as intended on the real servers.

Corrosive Ooze is 5% attack down / 5% defense down not 33% def down, has regular MA/ME.
Tachi: Ageha is a 25% defense down with floored MA/ME
Bilgestorm is 25% attack down, 25% defense down 10 accuracy down and has regular MA/ME though each effect can be resisted separately.
Auroral Drape is -60 accuracy and use's regular MA/ME, though it's a magic type spell and doesn't form many useful combinations.
Barbed Crescent is -30 accuracy and has floored MA, it's used to make Dual Wield III.

It's not that things like Barbed Cresent / Torbillion never land, that is hyperbole. It's that their magic acc is floored such that they rarely land. From SE's point of view it's a gamble, your taking a chance and hoping for "luck" (where else have we seen that), which is utter BS of course. Most of these spells have some sort of axillary use, either now or when they were introduced, typically as a set combo. BC also happens to deal moderate damage for it's MP cost (52MP).

Now it would be nice and full of unicorns if SE could *fix* it so that every BLU spell did *something* but that would have two side effects. First being to push Blue Mage over the OP line which would entail non-BLU's gnashing their teeth and result in an eventual nerf. Go take a look at everyone complaining about BST's TH pet and what that resulted in. Second would be to take developer resources away from things that actually need fixing, like the enmity system or enemy NM's spamming aoe slaughter moves. There is a huge list of things that need *fixed* and Blue Mage is near the very bottom of that list, right next to MNK, WAR, DRK and SAM (though SE seems to always throw cool sh1t at SAM).

The only two aspects that stand out as WTF are voidwatch procs and some BLU buffs sh!ty duration (T.Roar I'm staring at you). Roar's low duration I could deal with if the spell had a 0.5s cast time, but currently it's really not worth using. Should be 120s and call it a day.

[Yugl]

Barbed Cresent isn't broken, it has a use. It makes Dual Wield III.

If the spell isn't broken, then why do the test server and real server have different magic accuracy levels?


Tourbillion is one of those spells that if it worked, then BLU would shortly be nerfed. It's -33% Defense down which is BEYOND broken.
You admit that the spell is broken, so why bother argue? The fact that there is a discrepancy between the main server and the test server means one of them applies the incorrect magic accuracy. If you want to cry about the significance of the effect, then do so after the blatant glitch has been remedied.



Right now what I keep seeing is people complaining because some minor spell is sh1t and they want all 100+ Blue Magic spells to be useful and functional.Yes, spells should be functional. A spell that says "Inflicts fire damage and bestows Haste upon the caster" should do just that. Why the hell would we want to play a game where the description is a blatant lie?



I'm sorry but that's OP, if everyone BLU had worked "the way it should" then SE would nerf the sh1t out of this job. Tell me one area that Blue Mage can't be a bad ass in? The only two I can think of are primary DD during a 60s super zerg fight, and primary healer for legion type super events.Looking past the rhetoric of your post, your argument is quite bland. You essentially say "The discrepancy between the test and real server isn't indicative of a glitch because the class is overpowered." You do realize the glaring flaw with your argument right? Whether the description accuracy captures the effect of the spell is irrelevant to whether the class is overpowered. Moreover, you're overlooking the obvious fact that non-BLU weapon skills are affected. So your "great" response falls flat in virtue of the fact that other classes are subject to magic accuracy deficiency despite them lacking the utilities and damage of BLU.

Edit: And lets be clear here. Even if the description is correct, the fact that the test server and real server entail different levels of magic accuracy automatically indicates one of them is glitched. If SE intends for these spells to have reduced magic accuracy, then the test server should reflect that. What is the point of the test server if the battle mechanics vastly differ from the real server?

[Llana_Virren]

Diaga is utilized even at 99 (ex: Odin v2 adds, gather mobs for magian trials, or generic gathering of mobs), so how you manage to classify diaga as a "purposeless" spell is questionable.

If you go back to when I first mentioned these spells, it was that until content was added (such as NMs who can put 6+ shadows up) or Magian trials, Diaga and Poisonga had no purpose. Being given a purpose now does not mean that they were always useful.

The argument I was countering was that BLU spells never had a purpose and are therefore a waste of data space. Protect/Shell 1-3 are a waste of data space because they no longer have a purpose; just like tier 1 nukes, and diaga, and poisonga, etc. Having magically stumbled upon a use in 2010 doesn't mean they magically became useful from 2002-2010.

You can't use the 2002-2012 argument of "well spells used to be useful but now they suck" (pro-fix) without also accepting the fact that some spells used to have no use and now they do (my position). You can't ignore the mechanics of the game as a whole while addressing that the test server doesn't match the live server. They aren't supposed to.

The argument here is not to fix BLU for balance; the issue is BLUs wanting to be more powerful and the entirety of the posts address areas where BLUs "may" fall short, while ignoring areas were BLU have a clear advantage over other jobs.

[Mavrick]

Corrosive Ooze is 5% attack down / 5% defense down not 33% def down, has regular MA/ME.
.


Just a little correction here but...
There are 2 versions of Corrosive Ooze. Blue Mage version and BST's version which they get access to via Gooey Gerard (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Gooey_Gerard).
Blue Mage gets the gimp 5% version. BST gets the superior version which is ATK/DEF-33% with a max duration of 90 seconds (3 mins recast). I've yet to see Corrosive Ooze fail on anything that is not naturally resistant to enfeebles and considering that Gooey Gerard's Purulent Ooze (Max HP-10%) sticks with high accuracy even on NMs in Hall of Ki I'm willing to bet Ooze is just as potent.

[saevel]

Just a little correction here but...
There are 2 versions of Corrosive Ooze. Blue Mage version and BST's version which they get access to via Gooey Gerard (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Gooey_Gerard).
Blue Mage gets the gimp 5% version. BST gets the superior version which is ATK/DEF-33% with a max duration of 90 seconds (3 mins recast). I've yet to see Corrosive Ooze fail on anything that is not naturally resistant to enfeebles and considering that Gooey Gerard's Purulent Ooze (Max HP-10%) sticks with high accuracy even on NMs in Hall of Ki I'm willing to bet Ooze is just as potent.

Blue Mage gets modified versions of the monsters spells, SE kinda of stated this years ago. For this reason I'm only speaking about the BLU versions as most monsters versions would be stupidly broken for a BLU to use.

To the above people saying the "test server and real server are different", you don't think SE knows this? You think that if they wanted Torbillion to have regular magic acc they would of copied that over when they implemented it? The production server is ~always~ the "correct" version, development servers are just that, for development.

It's now boiled down to a few people crying of very minor things they see as problems and saying that Blue "needs fixing" because of that.

You can keep on arguing but it won't change SE's position. Your own position has already been self defeated the moment you referenced the development server as being "right".

[Yugl]

If you go back to when I first mentioned these spells, it was that until content was added (such as NMs who can put 6+ shadows up) or Magian trials, Diaga and Poisonga had no purpose. Being given a purpose now does not mean that they were always useful.

Well first off, you're lying or unaware of the purpose pre-TOAU. Just a few instances of Diaga and Poisonga serving purposes:
- Ballista (Very common back then and these spells were useful for combating the popular sub NIN)
- Ninja mobs in general (High haste did not exist back then, so AOEs were viable means of handling Ninja mobs)
- Occultation off particular Empties
- Train links off another PT member
- Gather multiple PHs (Remember, very few had access to WS then)
- Farming applications


The argument I was countering was that BLU spells never had a purpose and are therefore a waste of data space. Protect/Shell 1-3 are a waste of data space because they no longer have a purpose; just like tier 1 nukes, and diaga, and poisonga, etc. Having magically stumbled upon a use in 2010 doesn't mean they magically became useful from 2002-2010.True, developing a use later does not mean the use existed prior. Your example is quite the inverse of this thought though. The spells of previous tiers (ex: Protect) served a purpose prior and no longer serve that purpose. The tier one nukes, diaga, poisonga, and others did (And technically still do) serve a purpose, so they're not comparable to a spell that never served a purpose. That said, even if such a spell existed, why would you support the implementation of a spell that serves no purpose?



You can't use the 2002-2012 argument of "well spells used to be useful but now they suck" (pro-fix) without also accepting the fact that some spells used to have no use and now they do (my position). You can't ignore the mechanics of the game as a whole while addressing that the test server doesn't match the live server. They aren't supposed to.Quite frankly, this paragraph makes no sense. Consider rephrasing without rhetoric. You're saying I cannot address the fact that the test and real server do not match while ignoring the mechanics of the game. Yet, the very issue I point out is related to mechanics. Specifically, the magic accuracy of a set of spells and weapon skills. If the battle mechanics (i.e. those not related to issues of access and acquisition) are different, then players cannot feasibly test features of the game. You need to explain why the battle mechanics of the real server "shouldn't" match the test server because intending for there to be differences between the real and test server is quite contradictory to the idea of "testing."


Blue Mage gets modified versions of the monsters spells, SE kinda of stated this years ago. For this reason I'm only speaking about the BLU versions as most monsters versions would be stupidly broken for a BLU to use.

To the above people saying the "test server and real server are different", you don't think SE knows this? You think that if they wanted Torbillion to have regular magic acc they would of copied that over when they implemented it? The production server is ~always~ the "correct" version, development servers are just that, for development.

It's now boiled down to a few people crying of very minor things they see as problems and saying that Blue "needs fixing" because of that.

You can keep on arguing but it won't change SE's position. Your own position has already been self defeated the moment you referenced the development server as being "right".

You're not SE and SE hasn't made an official announcement regarding this issue, so unless you're suggesting you're psychic (Which will carry another set of criticisms), step aside Ms. Cleo. If SE intends for Tourbillion to have reduced accuracy, they should make the test server reflect this as well. After all, with all other ninja nerfs, the test server has reflected that as well. So why should this be different?

As for the production server always being correct, that means you're saying the production server was correct when cures did 9999999999999 damage and the development server did not reflect that change. It seems you're trumped by your own argument. You would do well not to rephrase my argument because you tend to do so poorly. Nowhere did I state that the main server was the correct server. Neither can be stated as the intended effect until SE says so themselves. That said, the preliminary evidence supports the test server's results more favorably because the issue is sporadic (No consistency between weapons affected) and deviant from the existing situation.

Edit: I'm not sure how you managed to miss Mavrick's point. You're either feigning ignorance or simply incapable of consistency. He wasn't saying that BLU's 5% should mirror the BST version. He's saying that BST have a 33% defense down with high magic accuracy. Thus, countering your belief that such an incredible defense down must coincide magic accuracy difficulties.

[saevel]

As for the production server always being correct, that means you're saying the production server was correct when cures did 9999999999999 damage and the development server did not reflect that change.

Which was patched in an emergency maintenance shortly thereafter. It's been how many months now? Torbillion has never had high magic accuracy on production server, if SE wanted it then they would of already. On the development server I can give myself 300,000,000 gil, I can't do that on the production server, so obviously there is a big where the moogle isn't offering me that option.

Torbillion / BC (and others) low potency and / or accuracy isn't a glitch or a bug, it's intentional or as the Dev's used to say "Working as Intended".

And seriously LULZ at your BST argument. The pet has to get TP first and won't be alive long enough on any content where you'd actually use the 33% def down effects. BLU on the other hand can do that once per 5min. Is a 25% def down / 25% attack down effect not good enough for you?

[Llana_Virren]

Stuff that I shortened to keep the post short

The problem is that the "purposes" were few, if ever used. We're talking about when most (read as:virtually all) melees were /nin dual wielders, especially WAR/nin. By the time the already-quick-casting Diaga went off, the shadows were already gone.
Perhaps your experiences were a little worse for wear but aside from finishing CoP missions we didn't linger around the Empties.
I mean this as respectfully as I can, but the only purpose for ballista is to waste peoples time, so... quoting that will in my mind totally negate any argument... unless the argument was to kill ballista.

Bottom line is that you shouldn't be quoting the difference between live and test server mechanics. I said this quite some posts ago... the test server is to test things, so the mechanics and attributes of things are changed and are not true to the live servers. And adjustments made to one do not inherently have to be applied to the other.

For example, you could enhance Berserk on the test server to be a 50% bonus to ATK. Does that mean the live server is wrong? No. Adjustments made to the test server are made to either a) see how it affects current content and playstyle based on recorded experience, or b) prepare the test server for newer content and test for balancing... for all you know other BLU spells maybe be weakened on the live server (but not on the test server) if it is found to be the best way to "balance" some new content.

BLU is weak in some areas, sure. Some spells just don't "make sense." But not every spell needs to be relevant or keep its relevance in end-game content. As a (former-) RDM, I say make Paralyze, Slow, Blind, Bind, Gravity, Addle and others relevant before even thinking about touching BLU spells. BLUs are already one of, if not the most versatile, survivable and powerful jobs in the game. The entire premise behind this thread has been how to make BLU more powerful and not a single whimper has been made about what you would be willing to give up for it.

[Yugl]

Which was patched in an emergency maintenance shortly thereafter. It's been how many months now? Torbillion has never had high magic accuracy on production server, if SE wanted it then they would of already.

Just because SE can fix a problem, that doesn't mean they do immediately. The Salvage bans (Roughly a yr before action) and recent locking nerfs should sufficiently indicate that. Furthermore, they may not understand what causes the deficiency either. Recall that Meeble Burrow's glitch took weeks before they could patch the random crashes.



On the development server I can give myself 300,000,000 gil, I can't do that on the production server, so obviously there is a big where the moogle isn't offering me that option.
If the battle mechanics (i.e. those not related to issues of access and acquisition) are different, then players cannot feasibly test features of the game.Show me how acquiring 100mil from the server doesn't constitute acquisition and does constitute a battle mechanic.



Torbillion / BC (and others) low potency and / or accuracy isn't a glitch or a bug, it's intentional or as the Dev's used to say "Working as Intended".
Where did they state this? Or is this more Ms.Cleo talk you're offering?



And seriously LULZ at your BST argument. The pet has to get TP first and won't be alive long enough on any content where you'd actually use the 33% def down effects. BLU on the other hand can do that once per 5min. Is a 25% def down / 25% attack down effect not good enough for you?Any well constructed group and half-decent BST can manage to keep the pet up and have enough TP to perform said TP move. The fact that you think otherwise indicates that you play the respective class poorly or play with a poorly constructed group.


The problem is that the "purposes" were few, if ever used. We're talking about when most (read as:virtually all) melees were /nin dual wielders, especially WAR/nin. By the time the already-quick-casting Diaga went off, the shadows were already gone.

Your server either sponsored terrible Ballista matches or you never paid attention. The purpose of diaga is to enable close-range attacks on a distant foe without wasting attack rounds. Shadows don't just drop by themselves and dual-wielding only offers two reliable attacks. When the opponent sports 3-4 shadows, quick means of removal (Diaga and Poisonga) are optimal. The more you linger within enemy territory, the more opportunity you create for gate-breach.



Perhaps your experiences were a little worse for wear but aside from finishing CoP missions we didn't linger around the Empties.
I mean this as respectfully as I can, but the only purpose for ballista is to waste peoples time, so... quoting that will in my mind totally negate any argument... unless the argument was to kill ballista.Ballista was popular for end game players because of the limited EG opportunities. Between Dynamis, Sky, and Ground Kings, the only one without an exaggerated wait was sky. Even that had limitations with respect to NM respawns. Aside from meriting, Ballista was one of the few alternatives for players that didn't require a dedicated large-scale group.

Ballista defense aside, you only managed to engage two out of five points. I'll take your silence as admission that said applications were relevant.



I said this quite some posts ago... the test server is to test things, so the mechanics and attributes of things are changed and are not true to the live servers. And adjustments made to one do not inherently have to be applied to the other.If the purpose is to test content, then mirroring the battle mechanics best contributes to said tests. If SE gives us Abyssea level stats to test content, then the results are quite meaningless if said stats don't replicate on the real server.



For example, you could enhance Berserk on the test server to be a 50% bonus to ATK. Does that mean the live server is wrong? No. Adjustments made to the test server are made to either a) see how it affects current content and playstyle based on recorded experience, or b) prepare the test server for newer content and test for balancing... for all you know other BLU spells maybe be weakened on the live server (but not on the test server) if it is found to be the best way to "balance" some new content.This ignores a critical component about the test server: The test server often updates to match the real server's battle mechanics post-update. Remember when Meteor was cast without ES? That feature is no longer present. However, these magic accuracy deficiencies have persisted over multiple update.



BLU is weak in some areas, sure. Some spells just don't "make sense." But not every spell needs to be relevant or keep its relevance in end-game content. As a (former-) RDM, I say make Paralyze, Slow, Blind, Bind, Gravity, Addle and others relevant before even thinking about touching BLU spells. BLUs are already one of, if not the most versatile, survivable and powerful jobs in the game. The entire premise behind this thread has been how to make BLU more powerful and not a single whimper has been made about what you would be willing to give up for it.This is all irrelevant since the issue transcends BLU in particular. Take a look at these weapon skills:



-Tachi: Ageha (Add. effect: Defense down)
-Metatron Torment (Add. effect: Defense down)
-Onslaught (Add. effect: Accuracy down)
-Full Break (Add. effect: Accuracy, Attack, Defense, and Evasion down)
-Armor Break (Add. effect: Defense down)
-Shell Crusher (Add. effect: Defense down)
-Randgrith (Add. effect: Evasion down)
-Nightmare Scythe (Add. effect: Blind)
-Skullbreaker (Add. effect: INT down) Three of them are relic weapon skills and none of them apply solely to BLU. So if the issue you pose is "But they would be overpowered!", then you're lacking the keen observation skills necessary to see that this applies to classes other than BLU. You also lack the observation skills necessary to see that an ability being glitched is independent of whether the applying class is overpowered. A DRK being overpowered within a zerg situation doesn't mean RCB giving an attack penalty isn't a glitch. Neither does BLU being "overpowered" outside of a zerg situation mean floored magic accuracy discrepancies aren't a glitches either.

[SpankWustler]

To put a finer point on what Yugl is saying, can you guys tell me how the Blind effect on Nightmare Scythe and the INT Down effect on Skullbreaker are so overpowered that those effects require floored magic accuracy? Can you weave a tale about White Mage's overwhelming power if Randgrith actually applied its Evasion Down effect properly?

Because exactly the same mechanic that affects certain Blue Magic spells, some potentially powerful and some mid-level and useless either way, affects all that stuff too.

Blue Mage is one of the best one-handed melee in FFXI, but that doesn't change something that is either a bug or the most insane tactic for adjusting additional effects ever.

[Areayea]

hm... best thing to this post is I agree that yes, breath spells need to be fixed, and vw procs should be 3 of each element not 4... that's what kills blu in vw

[Llana_Virren]

A Derailed (not detailed) post

The subject of this conversation is "To Devs: Fix BLU" and the basis of the conversation was spells that are a waste of space because they do nothing.

Diaga may be relevant to Ballista, but Ballista is not relevant to the end-game no matter how tough you die-hards wish it to be.

We're not talking about weak v. strong weaponskills, and we're not talking about a problem that "transcends BLU". We're talking specifically about BLU. So create another thread if you want to talk about the dynamics of competing weaponskills.

Lastly, yes the test server in many ways mirrors or adjusts to the live server, however you're assuming that changes made to the test server after the live server imply "deficiencies" as you put it. I disagree; not everything about the live server should or needs to match the test server, and not every discrepancy is inherently a bug.

[SpankWustler]

The subject of this conversation is "To Devs: Fix BLU"

I agree this topic has an over-reaching title and the contents of the first post are way too scatter-shot to welcome focused discussion. That isn't unique to this topic, though.

Welcome to the Official Forums, where nobody has ever taken an English 101 course, nobody would appreciate the irony of being hit in the head with a copy of Ulysses rather than Models for Writers as punishment for poor conveyance of ideas through text, and everybody makes their way down the Magian Trail.

So, I try to pick something kinda-sorta related to a super-broad topic and respond to that. In this case, that happens to be the super-weird magic accuracy mechanic that affects Blue Magic from Sandspin to Tourbillion and weapon-skills from Skullbreaker to Full Break.

[Llana_Virren]

...[T]he Official Forums, where nobody has ever taken an English 101 course....

Welcome to the internet lol.

[Tennotsukai]

Meh, I clep'd that course. Plus, typing from my phone these posts and comments doesn't help at all. Well, I hope we can hear from Camate on this subject... the OP that is.

[SpankWustler]

Meh, I clep'd that course. Plus, typing from my phone these posts and comments doesn't help at all. Well, I hope we can hear from Camate on this subject... the OP that is.

Given how often the magic accuracy weirdness has been brought up in various other forums with lack of response, sadly, I think the Development Bros just roll their eyes back into their heads and start drooling onto their keyboards when it comes up.

Either that, or they think Skullbreaker is the most epic enfeebling ability ever. In which case, I wouldn't hold out much hope for Thunder Breath ever making sense either.

[saevel]

Ok I'll end all the BS discussion then. SE won't be doing the above proposed *fixes*, they may eventually fix the VW procs through. People can keep pretending, though I suggest you don't hold you breath.

Actually do hold your breath, that many less annoying people we have to deal with.

[Afania]

where is prothescar when you need him....

I think he's inactive(I think), and you can't post if you're inactive.

[Tennotsukai]

I think he's inactive(I think), and you can't post if you're inactive.

Yeah, I PM'd him on ffxiah and found that out, lol. I wonder why though... he's one of the best.

[Afania]

Yeah, I PM'd him on ffxiah and found that out, lol. I wonder why though... he's one of the best.

A lot of players(some are very elite/hardcore players) quit or semi-inactive everyday due to various reasons....getting bored with FFXI, need to focus real life stuff like family/jobs etc. Nothing to ask why about :p

[Yugl]

The subject of this conversation is "To Devs: Fix BLU" and the basis of the conversation was spells that are a waste of space because they do nothing.

Diaga may be relevant to Ballista, but Ballista is not relevant to the end-game no matter how tough you die-hards wish it to be.

We're not talking about weak v. strong weaponskills, and we're not talking about a problem that "transcends BLU". We're talking specifically about BLU. So create another thread if you want to talk about the dynamics of competing weaponskills.

Lastly, yes the test server in many ways mirrors or adjusts to the live server, however you're assuming that changes made to the test server after the live server imply "deficiencies" as you put it. I disagree; not everything about the live server should or needs to match the test server, and not every discrepancy is inherently a bug.

That's quite clearly an overstatement of what the poster asks. He's clearly not saying spells like Sudden Lunge or Amorphic Spikes are a waste of a space. He's making specific requests. His first request asks to fix a generic magic accuracy issue that happens to plague BLU but affects other classes as well. The fact that this particular issue applies to Non-BLU abilities is precisely why this issue transcends BLU. I hope I've simplified this enough for even you to understand. If that is simplified enough, that should correct your confusion regarding the magic accuracy issue.

I agree that there is never a case regarding whether adjustments "should" or "should not" be considered a bug. Such simplicity requires ethical and moral principles that do not exist. However, I am free to weigh the evidence and determine whether I consider these to be bugs or normal. SE's response confirms that. Lacking the latter and given the liberty to engage in the former, the evidence suggests this is a bug. The effects are not consistent across application (BLU and WS mix not specific to any class), the type of effect applied (Mix of debuffs, not any particular ones), the extremity of the effect (Ranging from potent DEF down to minor poison), the instrument of application (Relic weapons and simple spells affected alike), and the class of instruments (Not every WS affects and not every BLU spell affected). Finally, there are very few (If any? Can you name some?) instances where the test server has not reflected subsequent battle nerfs to the real server.

As for utility, you're ultimately ignoring the fact that I've listed many other applications other than Ballista. Whether that is because you cannot properly respond to such applications or because you overlooked them is unknown. Nevertheless, I could remove Ballista from my previous post and still yield multiple endgame applications of Diaga. Thus, the fact of the matter is that diaga had and continues to have an application.

Finally, you demonstrate that you don't know what you're talking about since the changes weren't made to the test server; they were made to the real server only. So it's not the case that I'm making assumptions regarding "changes made to the test server"; these are changes to the live server that the test server hasn't mirrored. If the real server imposes boosts or nerfs, the test server should strictly follow unless SE plans to implement further changes (Hint: This would favor enhancing said magic accuracy). Not only do these anomalies plague the situation, but the degree to which magic accuracy declines further supports that notion. In short, you're wrong about the chronology and direction of this issue.


Ok I'll end all the BS discussion then. SE won't be doing the above proposed *fixes*, they may eventually fix the VW procs through. People can keep pretending, though I suggest you don't hold you breath.

Actually do hold your breath, that many less annoying people we have to deal with.

You should test Barbed Crescent extensively because a quick check of the spell against fully leveled Abyssea mobs suggests that the floored accuracy does not apply to said spell anymore. Although only one cast landed the debuff without cruor buffs, using cruor buffs (No atmas) seemed to have a consistent landing rate. The difference between no cruor buffs and cruor buffs is roughly 35mACC within Heroes zones. If that is what's necessary to land some of these spells now, that's much better than floored magic accuracy. That said, needs more testing, but the preliminary results look great for barbed crescent.

[SpankWustler]

You should test Barbed Crescent extensively because a quick check of the spell against fully leveled Abyssea mobs suggests that the floored accuracy does not apply to said spell anymore. Although only one cast landed the debuff without cruor buffs, using cruor buffs (No atmas) seemed to have a consistent landing rate. The difference between no cruor buffs and cruor buffs is roughly 35mACC within Heroes zones. If that is what's necessary to land some of these spells now, that's much better than floored magic accuracy. That said, needs more testing, but the preliminary results look great for barbed crescent.

This is interesting.

I wonder how likely it is that many of these additional effects are meant to have a reasonable magical accuracy penalty, like Barbed Crescent seems to have at the moment, but ended up floored instead.

[saevel]

You should test Barbed Crescent extensively because a quick check of the spell against fully leveled Abyssea mobs suggests that the floored accuracy does not apply to said spell anymore. Although only one cast landed the debuff without cruor buffs, using cruor buffs (No atmas) seemed to have a consistent landing rate. The difference between no cruor buffs and cruor buffs is roughly 35mACC within Heroes zones. If that is what's necessary to land some of these spells now, that's much better than floored magic accuracy. That said, needs more testing, but the preliminary results look great for barbed crescent.

Link please though understand I don't trust anything from inside Abyssea, especially as crour buffs shouldn't have any effect on the proc rate of an additional effect on a WS, which is all Physical BLU spells are. Crour buffs are just HP/MP and + states not +magic acc (unless your talking atma which is different).

[Tennotsukai]

I wish we could get some kind of reply to this...

[SpankWustler]

Link please though understand I don't trust anything from inside Abyssea, especially as crour buffs shouldn't have any effect on the proc rate of an additional effect on a WS, which is all Physical BLU spells are. Crour buffs are just HP/MP and + states not +magic acc (unless your talking atma which is different).

I can link to Yugl's really quick Barbed Crescent test (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/37619-Blue-Mage-Best-thread-ever?p=5513278&viewfull=1#post5513278) and stumble through some of the reasoning.

I've been drinking to get through some holiday family gatherings to the extent that I'm not up to finding the original testing on this stuff. So, in addition to lacking links, this might be off on a finer point even though it conveys the general idea. I apologize to a bunch of people in advance.

The best understanding anyone has of the wonky additional effects right now is that the wonky equation just uses the ~50 magic accuracy given by the relevant base stat. There's no check for whatever baseline is normally used and I'm not sure if there is even a check for normal +magic accuracy.

Obviously, Barbed Crescent has far more than ~50 magic accuracy now for some reason, but still fairly low magic accuracy. Low, but no longer so low that seems like it must be a bug.

[saevel]

I can link to Yugl's really quick Barbed Crescent test (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/37619-Blue-Mage-Best-thread-ever?p=5513278&viewfull=1#post5513278) and stumble through some of the reasoning.

I've been drinking to get through some holiday family gatherings to the extent that I'm not up to finding the original testing on this stuff. So, in addition to lacking links, this might be off on a finer point even though it conveys the general idea. I apologize to a bunch of people in advance.

The best understanding anyone has of the wonky additional effects right now is that the wonky equation just uses the ~50 magic accuracy given by the relevant base stat. There's no check for whatever baseline is normally used and I'm not sure if there is even a check for normal +magic accuracy.

Obviously, Barbed Crescent has far more than ~50 magic accuracy now for some reason, but still fairly low magic accuracy. Low, but no longer so low that seems like it must be a bug.


Looked over it, no where near any info to say +35 M.acc or even 50 M.acc. That's not how MA vs ME work, also physical WS effects do not get a dSTAT style magic acc, it's assumed to be 0 (thought SE could of screwed around with this and we wouldn't of noticed it). Magic acc is the skill of the weapon being used (Great Axe / Markmanship / ect..) along with any +M.acc from gear. Magic has multiple resist checks in ever decreasing duration or potency (usually the formor) being the result. If the final resist check is failed then the entire thing is considered resisted. An additional effect with a single resist state will appear to constantly not take effect on a monster several levels higher then you, this is due to MA/ME scaling. Adding a single additional resist state ups the land rate by a significant amount.

Most BLU spells that have issues landing do not in fact have anything remotely close to "floored rate", what they have is one or two resist states with a severe magic accuracy penalty.

EX single resist state, resulting MA/ME being 10% land rate with 1000 casts
100 land 100%
900 land 0%.
Visible land rate: 10%

Adding another resist state
100 land 100%
90 land 50%
810 land 0%
Visible land rate: 19%

Now lets move the MA / ME to 25% initial land rate
250 land 100%
187.5 land 50%
562.5 land 0%
visible land rate: 43.7%

In order to get a 15% swing in initial land rate you need ~30 magic accuracy. As you pass 50% it becomes profound in it's effect and you get results similar to Diss's poison and SL's stun effect. Adding second, third and fourth resist states further enhances the visible land rate.

Go try it sometimes, Mortal Ray a TW / EP monster, it'll land and they'll die. Same with 1000 needles and BC. Fight high mobs and it seems to never land, congrats the monsters native C resist skill along with the magic acc penalty just shot your initial land rate into the ground and without multiple additional resist states (Ray has at least two total) you get a very low visible land rate.

[saevel]

Ok just finished doing some testing on spiders outside Whitegate, the 63~65 versions. That is high enough to survive the tests but low enough that I should of had ratio under 0.5. Also I should of been way beyond capping first land rate on magic acc.

First the BC / Tourb testing. Out of 10 spiders BC didn't proc once, not even when I CA'd it. Tourb landed twice total, though when I CA'd it landed consistently.

From that I surmise that it's not that they have "floored" magic acc but that their not 100% proc rates, not even close. And that when it does proc it still must overcome MACC/MEVD with what is most likely a magic acc penalty.

[Yugl]

Link please though understand I don't trust anything from inside Abyssea, especially as crour buffs shouldn't have any effect on the proc rate of an additional effect on a WS, which is all Physical BLU spells are. Crour buffs are just HP/MP and + states not +magic acc (unless your talking atma which is different).

I would like a link to this since when I asked on BG, no one suggested WS do not benefit from dSTAT. I recall Nightfyre suggesting breath spells may ignore dSTAT, but why would he forget to mention BLU physical spells if that's the case? Last I checked, I could land additional effects using brew without issue despite having zero BLU magic skill. I was testing whether this is due to inherent mACC bonus or due to dSTAT. I'll do a quick test now since I those images used my old drive though.



First the BC / Tourb testing. Out of 10 spiders BC didn't proc once, not even when I CA'd it.


These preliminary results make the "overpowered" argument quite hilarious.

SE:
"Allow accuracy reduction to land against a mob you're 34 levels higher than? Why that's absurd!"

[Yugl]

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/BLU%20Magic%20Accuracy%20with%20Brew/Yugl_2012.12.15_130417.png (https://www.dropbox.com/home/Public/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/BLU%20Magic%20Accuracy%20with%20Brew)
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/BLU%20Magic%20Accuracy%20with%20Brew/Yugl_2012.12.15_130418.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/BLU%20Magic%20Accuracy%20with%20Brew/Yugl_2012.12.15_130419.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/BLU%20Magic%20Accuracy%20with%20Brew/Yugl_2012.12.15_130421.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/BLU%20Magic%20Accuracy%20with%20Brew/Yugl_2012.12.15_130422.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/BLU%20Magic%20Accuracy%20with%20Brew/Yugl_2012.12.15_130423.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/BLU%20Magic%20Accuracy%20with%20Brew/Yugl_2012.12.15_130424.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/BLU%20Magic%20Accuracy%20with%20Brew/Yugl_2012.12.15_130425.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/BLU%20Magic%20Accuracy%20with%20Brew/Yugl_2012.12.15_130426.png

That folder shows:
Level 83BLU against T Olyphants
0/~6 HB landing stun without brew (More than that I think, but busy at; None land)
~8/~8 HB landing stun with brew (100% lands)

This was with the test server to ensure the best scenario for the spell. So that means either mACC accompanies brew (No other test to prove this atm) or dSTAT does affect physical magic accuracy. If you have an idea for testing brew's mACC, then do suggest one since I've been looking to figure that out. Even though the sample is minor, I cannot do much more before Legion and the results are quite drastic.

Edit: Someone said the link doesn't work; let me see if I can figure this out before Legion. Use the new link for now. Navigate to Player > Magic > Blue Magic Accuracy with Brew

[saevel]

This was with the test server to ensure the best scenario for the spell. So that means either mACC accompanies brew (No other test to prove this atm) or dSTAT does affect physical magic accuracy. If you have an idea for testing brew's mACC, then do suggest one since I've been looking to figure that out. Even though the sample is minor, I cannot do much more before Legion and the results are quite drastic.

Which dSTAT would be used for the physical WS then? STR, DEX, INT, MND? And if the WS has multiple WSC's which would be used?

EX: Tachi Koki is a physical WS with additional light magic damage. The magic component is resistible and subject to magic accuracy. The WS use's both MND and STR as it's WSC's, so which would be used for "MACC"? Would it use INT because it's magic, or MND because it's light magic? There has been no proof in all of FFXI that any stat effects magic accuracy of physical weaponskills with an additional effect component.

Seeing as brew adds MAB, Attack and accuracy, I'd say it was a VERY good assumption that it also adds MACC.

Next thing you'll be telling me that INT effects magic accuracy on Drain spells.

[saevel]

Also I believe I just squashed your


You should test Barbed Crescent extensively because a quick check of the spell against fully leveled Abyssea mobs suggests that the floored accuracy does not apply to said spell anymore. Although only one cast landed the debuff without cruor buffs, using cruor buffs (No atmas) seemed to have a consistent landing rate. The difference between no cruor buffs and cruor buffs is roughly 35mACC within Heroes zones. If that is what's necessary to land some of these spells now, that's much better than floored magic accuracy. That said, needs more testing, but the preliminary results look great for barbed crescent.

The difference in MA between 65 and 99 is a few times greater then the +35 you were claiming. That +35 would be 17.5% on first land rate, and that's on things with a clear dstat magic accuracy (Magic WS and Spells).

[Yugl]

Which dSTAT would be used for the physical WS then? STR, DEX, INT, MND? And if the WS has multiple WSC's which would be used?

EX: Tachi Koki is a physical WS with additional light magic damage. The magic component is resistible and subject to magic accuracy. The WS use's both MND and STR as it's WSC's, so which would be used for "MACC"? Would it use INT because it's magic, or MND because it's light magic? There has been no proof in all of FFXI that any stat effects magic accuracy of physical weaponskills with an additional effect component.

Seeing as brew adds MAB, Attack and accuracy, I'd say it was a VERY good assumption that it also adds MACC.

If dSTAT exists, which stat affects the magic accuracy of these spells:
No testing has occurred to differentiate, so if one exists, there isn't enough data to show which stat affects magic accuracy. Technically, BLU magical nukes can use multiple WSC, so are you suggesting dSTAT doesn't affect those as well?

There is no proof that any stat affects mACC of physical weaponskills/BLU physical spells (Added this piece since we're discussing BLU results):
No evidence exists for brews adding magic accuracy either. If brew has no mACC component, these tests prove the existence of dSTAT. If brew has mACC, this test doesn't disprove that, but doesn't prove the case either.

Thus, that is why I asked if you had a test for brew mACC. We cannot "conclude" much from these results without that component. What we can say is that either brew includes mACC or that dSTAT affects these spells.



The difference in MA between 65 and 99 is a few times greater then the +35 you were claiming. That +35 would be 17.5% on first land rate, and that's on things with a clear dstat magic accuracy (Magic WS and Spells).I never claimed +35 mACC, so you're not doing much with your test other than making the statement:


Right now what I keep seeing is people complaining because some minor spell is sh1t and they want all 100+ Blue Magic spells to be useful and functional. I'm sorry but that's OP, if everyone BLU had worked "the way it should" then SE would nerf the sh1t out of this job.

Quite laughable. As stated earlier,

Saeval and SE:
"Land accuracy reduction on a mob you're 35 levels higher than? Why that's absurd!"

Anyways, jokes aside, I landed 5/6 (roughly) with cruor buffs, which is much more than you're reporting. Neither are great samples though.

[saevel]

Now your just spinning in circles. You attempted to say "SE fixed BC!!!" where I proved no fix to mAcc has happened. It's been my observation that it's not a MACC/MEVD problem but it simply not procing. There is the distinct possibility that some stat effects the proc rate (completely different then MACC/MEVD), I haven't seen any evidence of this but nobody has bothered to do an in-depth study either. Your understanding of MACC/MEVD was flawed, that was obvious by your claim in regards to "crour buffs" suddenly making it land able.

Brews do give MACC, just like they give Attack, Defense, Accuracy, Evasion and Magic Attack. In all likelihood they also give magic evasion.

[Yugl]

Now your just spinning in circles. You attempted to say "SE fixed BC!!!" where I proved no fix to mAcc has happened.

"X needs more testing" now means "X is the case"? Try harder when you spin lies. And just because you'll probably ignore the post and substitute your own reality:


You should test Barbed Crescent extensively because a quick check of the spell against fully leveled Abyssea mobs suggests that the floored accuracy does not apply to said spell anymore. Although only one cast landed the debuff without cruor buffs, using cruor buffs (No atmas) seemed to have a consistent landing rate. The difference between no cruor buffs and cruor buffs is roughly 35mACC within Heroes zones. If that is what's necessary to land some of these spells now, that's much better than floored magic accuracy. That said, needs more testing, but the preliminary results look great for barbed crescent.
It's been my observation that it's not a MACC/MEVD problem but it simply not procing. Here's where your work backfires on you once again. Before I show you this, I'll clarify some of the "technical" discussion he's attempting to invoke. http://bg-wiki.com/bg/Magic_Hit_Rate

Magic hit rate has multiple stages. For simplicity sake, we'll use full effect, half effect, and no effect (This would be a spell with three resist stages). So if you need to roll a 5 to land an effect, rolling a five in one roll would be full effect, landing a 5 with the second roll a half effect, and not landing a 5 with either roll a "no effect." So lets continue.

1. We're discussing the fact that the spell seems to rarely lands in any manner. Adding resist states into the equation can only enhance the message rate via half-durations. This is because more chances to roll dice improves your overall chance of rolling a number you desire. So how does a greater chance to land a spell indicate that the issue isn't mACC relevant? That's not possible by adding resist states, but by removing resist states. So did SE eliminate resist states for BC?

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/Barbed%20Crescent%20Magic%20Accuracy/ffxi_2012.12.16_05.37.14.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/Barbed%20Crescent%20Magic%20Accuracy/ffxi_2012.12.16_05.37.18.png\

No. The first image displays molten burst (Transfers debuffs) so you know any previous accuracy reductions do not apply. The second image shows BC's additional effect lasting ~56s (Close enough to 1min given Stamp's miscalculation). This is clearly deviant from the normal 3min duration; thus a different resist state. So much for your resist state argument.

2. Elemental seal seems to reliably land the effect. Elemental seal doesn't seem to eliminate resist states as any mob with natural SDT (Species Damage Taken) to an element will half resist regardless of ES's application. Furthermore, ESed spells can occasionally resist. If ES eliminated every stage except the first, then resists would be impossible.:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/Barbed%20Crescent%20Magic%20Accuracy/ffxi_2012.12.16_02.48.12.png (Shows landing with ES)
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Status%20Effects/Impact%20Element/ffxi_2012.10.29_14.39.26.png (Shows ES landing half-duration debuffs against an elemental)

3. Although I was not able to replicate the land rate using cruor buffs, I was able to land the spell occasionally; I also added a Sandspin image since that was reported as broken by Prothescar/whoever helped him test these spells:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/Barbed%20Crescent%20Magic%20Accuracy/Sand%20or%20Crescent.png (Sandspin or Barbed; idc, likely Sand though)
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/Barbed%20Crescent%20Magic%20Accuracy/ffxi_2012.12.16_04.49.07.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/Barbed%20Crescent%20Magic%20Accuracy/ffxi_2012.12.16_04.49.08.png (These images combined show a full duration BC)
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/Barbed%20Crescent%20Magic%20Accuracy/ffxi_2012.12.16_05.04.42.png (This shows ~2min duration)

Thus, we see 1, 2, and 3min duration accuracy reductions (At least 4 states since we need a "no effect" state).

Your states argument is incorrect. Your "never lands" is descendant of your observations (Your data suggests that), but is ultimately incorrect. That said, so would be the notion that BC is fixed. The fact is that BC has multiple states and this should increase the notices of accuracy reduction when using BC.


Your understanding of MACC/MEVD was flawed, that was obvious by your claim in regards to "crour buffs" suddenly making it land able.My claim was what I observed, which is that I landed ~3/4 casts (However many I wrote) in a row with just cruor buffs. You taking that to mean "omg cruor buffs = land completely" is your own faulty interpretation. Furthermore, my knowledge of magic hit rate derives from BG-wiki (This should be obvious to anyone even remotely familiar with my work there). At no point did I attempt to flesh out a magic accuracy model prior to this post regarding magic hit rate. The only relevant post to that is Spankwustler, so attempting to conflate our posts as an attack, is quite pitiful. I did mention magic accuracy as related to dSTAT (Basically reworking existing dSTAT formula for these spells) and even you admit there is insufficient evidence to refute this. In short, your criticism either derives from error or blatant disregard for integrity in general.


Brews do give MACC, just like they give Attack, Defense, Accuracy, Evasion and Magic Attack. In all likelihood they also give magic evasion.Your prior post said brew's mACC bonus was an assumption. Do you have data to support this shift from an assumption to a statement?

[saevel]

Straw man, all of it.

I actually stated earlier the different resist levels, I also broke down exactly how that works, so to attempt to "educate me" is just you liking to hear your own voice.

I called you on your BS and now your going nuclear.


Although I was not able to replicate the land rate using cruor buffs

End of Debate, your *anecdotal evidence* that BC (or any physical WS) has an MACC component of dSTAT was busted, which is what I told you earlier. I also said it had a low proc rate which is separate from the MA/ME comparison. I confirmed that by trying it on monsters that had so low ME that there was no way I would of been floored.

[SpankWustler]

Saevel, you do realize that you're using something stupid that I typed five minutes before passing out drunk as motivation to furiously chew on a tree rather than back up and look at the forest, right?

I just want to make sure we're all on the same page.

[Yugl]

Straw man, all of it.

I actually stated earlier the different resist levels, I also broke down exactly how that works, so to attempt to "educate me" is just you liking to hear your own voice.

I called you on your BS and now your going nuclear.



End of Debate, your *anecdotal evidence* that BC (or any physical WS) has an MACC component of dSTAT was busted, which is what I told you earlier.

I clarified the resist levels for people reading the post, not you. If they don't understand the mechanic, they cannot see why your claim is utterly absurd. That is why I said "he is attempting to invoke" when only you actually discussed resist levels.
Furthermore, I never said dSTAT could affect blue magic because of barbed crescent tests. That is you strawmanning. I said dSTAT could affect blue magic because of the brew tests. In fact, I made this quite clear multiple times:


Last I checked, I could land additional effects using brew without issue despite having zero BLU magic skill. I was testing whether this is due to inherent mACC bonus or due to dSTAT.
This was with the test server to ensure the best scenario for the spell. So that means either mACC accompanies brew (No other test to prove this atm) or dSTAT does affect physical magic accuracy. If you have an idea for testing brew's mACC, then do suggest one since I've been looking to figure that out. Even though the sample is minor, I cannot do much more before Legion and the results are quite drastic.

I also said it had a low proc rate which is separate from the MA/ME comparison. I confirmed that by trying it on monsters that had so low ME that there was no way I would of been floored.Your test didn't confirm this at all. All your post did was show that reducing mEVA didn't make you land the spell once within ten casts. In fact, I did some tests that ultimately support the idea of a mACC/mEVA test and indicate that your "Procs" idea is false.

1. Elemental seal makes the effect land: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/Barbed%20Crescent%20Magic%20Accuracy/ffxi_2012.12.16_02.48.12.png

2. Brew makes the effect land:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/BLU%20Magic%20Accuracy%20with%20Brew/Tourbillion%20and%20Barbed%20Crescent/ffxi_2012.12.16_22.46.29.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/BLU%20Magic%20Accuracy%20with%20Brew/Tourbillion%20and%20Barbed%20Crescent/ffxi_2012.12.16_22.46.30.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/BLU%20Magic%20Accuracy%20with%20Brew/Tourbillion%20and%20Barbed%20Crescent/ffxi_2012.12.16_22.46.34.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/BLU%20Magic%20Accuracy%20with%20Brew/Tourbillion%20and%20Barbed%20Crescent/ffxi_2012.12.16_22.46.35.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/BLU%20Magic%20Accuracy%20with%20Brew/Tourbillion%20and%20Barbed%20Crescent/ffxi_2012.12.16_22.46.36.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/BLU%20Magic%20Accuracy%20with%20Brew/Tourbillion%20and%20Barbed%20Crescent/ffxi_2012.12.16_22.46.38.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65839275/Final%20Fantasy%20XI%20Testings/Player/Magic/BLU%20Magic%20Accuracy%20with%20Brew/Tourbillion%20and%20Barbed%20Crescent/ffxi_2012.12.16_22.46.41.png

The first shows Elemental Seal, an ability that enhances magic accuracy, makes the spell land. If you want to complain about ES having special properties, the brew test further supports the mACC/mEVA claim. If your claim were correct, we wouldn't see a leap in land rate using brew because the proc system you propose would prevent them from landing. However, we see clearly that, whether due to native mACC or dSTAT, 11/12 Tourbillions landed and 2/2 Barbed Crescents landed. This evidence overwhelmingly supports mACC/mEVA issues rather than your proc idea. How do we know brew isn't invoking some "unresist" trait? First, we see Tourbillion was resisted in one instance. Second, we see Dream Flower (AOE sleep) within the fourth image. Thus, the evidence highly suggests this is an mACC/mEVA calculation issue.

[Metaking]

tho im happy to see there is a way to force it to land i almost fear being forced to come blu/blm to events for the def down... kinda like the brd/blm days for elegy

[Tennotsukai]

it's been a while...tourbillion still broke? anyone know?

[Zarchery]

Don't you guys have like a billion spells, and you have to pick and choose which you can cast? If a few of them suck, just swap them out for better spells.

[Babekeke]

There's a difference between a spell sucking, and a spell being broken. If Tourbillion wasn't broken, it would not suck. It's description says it gives a def down, but in practice, it's very rare to do so.

[Kari]

At the very least make it so Unbridled Learning or some other skill allows you to cast a spell you do not have set.
I don't play BLU, but I know people that do. They have to sacrifice a lot of their DD potential to be a better proccing job, and that's all that people want BLU for in VW.

[Demon6324236]

Don't you guys have like a billion spells, and you have to pick and choose which you can cast? If a few of them suck, just swap them out for better spells.It sucks because the real reason to use the spell does not really take effect. Its a problem many blue spells suffer from so far as I know, where the additional effect has a low proc rate making the spell itself near worthless in most cases. The reason people do not just switch it out is because its an UL spell, one of which should be the most useful, but is instead fairly worthless.

[Metaking]

some blu spells(turbillion and barbed crescent being the poster boys) some weapon skills (sams def down big offender) and some of the relic weapons(but not all) also seem to have floored macc, and the sams one 100% or 300% tp just refuses to land but like 1 in 10 even tho its macc is suppose to be effected by tp.