Interim Report – Sorry to keep you all waiting!

[Prrsha]

A lot of people spent far more time trying to get a group to exp with than they did actually exping back in the day and I think that is far more of a turn off than the current state of leveling.

Did you read my ideas about revamping the LFP interface and making into more of a GUI. That would solve many of those old problems.

[Arcon]

What saddens me is that most of the naysayers complain but don't offer new ideas and feedback on how to fix FFXI.

That is very untrue. We offer constructive criticism all the time. Only we don't do it in a thread about EXP, because there is nothing wrong with EXP. The problems start in content that's relevant, which this doesn't fall under. The only people I've seen complain about EXP were people who miss the old days because of nostalgia.


Did you read my ideas about revamping the LFP interface and making into more of a GUI. That would solve many of those old problems.

If you say so. I would have absolutely nothing against it, and in fact, I hope they introduce many changes of a similar nature with their announced UI revamp. However, I still refuse to see how the interface had anything to do with not finding people to EXP with. /inv if you want to EXP. /sea all inv <level range> if you're looking for members. It was that easy, and it worked. The problem was not that you couldn't find people who wanted to EXP, but that there were no right people who wanted to do it (right job combinations for a party) or no camps were free, or, in the days before Level Sync, no right levels within your accepted range. And no changes to the UI could have fixed that, and even less today.

[Eyeballed]

Off topic post: (because there's no PM's on these boards)

Prrsha, I sent you an email at the address you gave about 5 days ago. The message is as follows:

Without trying to jump the gun too quickly before I move over, just a few questions.

What times is your LS most active? I live in the UK and we're 5-6 hours ahead of CST/PST. Not that I'm too heavily bothered about that in my own right, but I won't be around to get to know and help other members.

When you get your numbers up, what's your primary focus? Social/fun or hardcore/endgame? It probably goes without saying that I'm not willing to devote anywhere near 100% of my time to the game any more, but when I do log in, I am serious about what I'm doing. If I do come, here's what I have to offer:

Top Jobs:

Lv.63 RDM
Lv.51 BST
Lv.49 NIN
Lv.47 WHM

Most jobs unlocked and at least Lv20. Proper gear/spells for all.

Crafts:

Woodworking 50
Alchemy 40
Smithing 20


I've been using my spare time to concentrate on C++ and character modelling and animation, so if I'm not online I'm doing that or playing co-op games with my better half. My wife actually rolled her first character ever back in April, but lost interest in a few months, and I'm pretty sure she'd want to come also but whether it would revive her interest I'm not sure. It's doubtful - she'd just want to come because she always has to be near me anywhere I go lol.

[FrankReynolds]

Did you read my ideas about revamping the LFP interface and making into more of a GUI. That would solve many of those old problems.

I'm all for revamping the LFP interface. I don't think it will do what you think it will though.

[Rustic]

A lot of nice ideas there Rustic!

What saddens me is that most of the naysayers complain but don't offer new ideas and feedback on how to fix FFXI. The devs have already admitted that FFXI needs a lot of work. I hope to see good things though...

That's the thing about an engine that's been proven. The foundation is still solid, even if the roof needs work. "Retro gaming" may be a catchy term, but there's a reason games like this still persist. As long as the devs are willing to give the game some TLC, it'll have players and turn a profit for S-E, considering the big investment in developing FFXI was made and paid for a decade ago during the initial JP/EN rush of subscribers.

And yes, I think that means that we throttle back the rate of exp gain from mass AoE killfests. That has to be the first step. Without it, any changes to progression are meaningless, as there literally is nothing better by a few orders of magnitude.

http://common.allakhazam.com/images/2/2/22f5385591d92d4ceab760618e2b2182.jpg

This needs to stop if you want to have any kind of exp gaining system other than "scoop up pack of easy targets, Cleave, repeat"- especially since delivering damage via TP attacks is by far the easiest method of sustainable AOE.

Give AOE attacks a damage reduction effect if they hit more than X number of targets (I'd suggest four, and cut the damage on the group by 10% for 5, 15% for 6, 25% for 7, 40% for 8 or more), and reduce the exp gain by half for each mob past the second- so #3 gives 50% exp, #4 25%, #5 12.5%, #6 6.25%, #7 3.1%, #8 1.6% (and #9+ don't give exp in any case if killed simultaneously).

In the pic above, that single Cleave delivers exp (limit points in this case) as: 245, 234, 234, 228, 234, 228, 234, 228, 228, 228 = 2,321 limit points. Even assuming that with damage reduction the Cleave managed to kill all 8 (since it'd deal 60% normal damage), the exp rate would instead be 245, 234, 117, 57, 29, 14, 7, 3 = 706. Voila, we've just managed to cut Cleave-fests down to less than one-third their prior efficiency, and that's assuming you manage to actually kill everything with AOE damage reduction. Or you're pulling less into every AoE to get more exp per kill- again, that effectively nerfs mass exp-production, as it still takes more time to set things up and rebuild enough TP to hack through targets.

Abyssea zones are still going to be very, very good for exp gain- but combined with the beasties I mentioned in the end of the prior post, you can control mass-slaughter leeching alliances and have folks actually needing to contribute vs. being along for the ride.

[FrankReynolds]

Then, I would say this: Why not? Compare what your first artifact armor was like compared to your Dynamis gear. One was traveling across the entire span of the FFXI map, battling NMs and finding your way deep into dungeons to gain your signature "job gear" in a story related to your specific job. The other was slapping mobs around endlessly hoping your Duelist's Chapeau (or insert PITA AF2 drop) would fall into the treasure pool. Which was more fun and felt more rewarding?

Dynamis used to last way too long and require too much scheduling. Other than that and the shitty drop rates, I found it to be a fun and rewarding event. The AF quests had some cool story lines and stuff, but I didn't enjoy the excessive amount of running around to places that were intentionally made annoying to travel to / through. I'd say I felt pretty well rewarded when I finished my first set of af. When I went to start on a set for my next job, it didn't feel nearly as rewarding. I feel like they could have made the finding of chests portion into a one time thing that didn't have to be repeated for subsequent jobs. I'd say it's sort of a wash honestly.




And here's another flaw. The idea that one needed to level 10-20 different jobs? For serious? How high?

That only sounds crazy because of how long it used to take to level jobs. In reality it's stupid for them to keep adding jobs if no one has time to level them. Which also means that they can't really build content around those jobs unless they find a way to get more people to use them (faster leveling process). Besides, who want to pay a company to design stuff that is too inaccessible for them to ever use? If there are going to be 22 jobs, then I want to use them all at some point.



And here's something that exists even at 99: Gear coming from sources that X job requires to progress, but isn't useful for getting said gear. Even now, you see that with jobs who aren't generating the staggers needed for optimal drops = sorry, {No thanks}. If it's a process that results in gear that is ideal for X job, that job should be able to perform in some manner that makes it easier to come by. For example, if it's RNG/COR gear, give it weaknesses to a RNG WS or a specific Quick Draw.

They did that to force people to level more jobs.

Need gear from X event? Level X job ==>
Now you need gear from Y event to gear Y job ==>
That event requires Z job ==>
Now you must level Z job to gear job Y ==>
During the course of all this you acquire extra gear for R job so you decide to level that too

This all leads to job diversity and longer play time. It's a vicious cycle, but it's pretty brilliant if you think about it.




Of course, HNMLS as we knew it no longer exist, and we have a world now where even soloing EP's, you actually make a respectable chunk of exp per kill- especially when combined with training regimens that tack on an effective xp bonus with each cycle of dead beasties, and killing piles of bad guys also results in treasure chests dropping hither and yon. The old bad days of being unable to make appreciable progress without a PT are dead and gone. The problem lies in that the replacement has become sitting in place while someone spams AoEs with a greataxe. There isn't even that 10-20 levels of party play to learn your job anymore. I don't want to see the days where a character took a year to hit cap. I'd be happy with seeing people go 1-99 in 30-60 days played- where 30 is someone who pushed hard and partied constantly for maximum exp gain, and 60 for people who played casual and soloed much of the way instead. FoV could even be easily retuned to this- by offering training regimens that worked for parties and ones that worked for soloists.

I actually agree for the most part. I think it would be cool if they made it so that some zones had books and people could burn like they do now, while other zones had no books, but offered far higher exp per kill, so that a traditional group of 6 could exp outside just as fast as an abbysea burn group does inside (or at least close to that). I doubt that many people would choose it over abbysea, but it might make a few nostalgic cats happy. I think 2 weeks per job should be tops though. Even at that speed, we're still talking about almost 6+ months of just straight leveling for people that want to take all the jobs to cap.


the system by which this is easily done is an error in FFXI that needs to be removed.

I would agree with you, except that I think they would make something far worse if they did. I just don't like the idea of changing things in a way that will make people feel like they missed the boat.


Heck, make characters gain exp bonuses from having leveled other jobs that level out as you get nearer your "top jobs". I've got a jobs I've already leveled? Awesome, give me a exp bonus of (50- current job level + number of jobs with a level higher than current job) x .(highest job level)%.

Not a terrible idea. I'm not gonna lie though. I'm fine with how abyssea leveling works. I don't mind having lot's of people with lot's of jobs leveled. I don't miss the days of playing red mage at every event because we already had a mandau thief in the shell and I didn't want to spend 9 months leveling Samurai. Or spending hours shouting for a bard so that I could merit for 30 minutes before he D/Cs. I was especially thankful for it when SE decided to block me from paying the bill on my 8 year old JP account because I live in NA thus forcing me to turn my mule into my main and reroll another mule.

Funny story. When I was attempting to finish CoP, I actually joined a group with a guy that was shouting at about 7:00pm one night. I sat and watched Netflix and drank beer while he shouted for the next several hours. I passed out in my chair and woke up about 2:00am. I looked and we still only had 3 people. I went to bed and woke up about 9:00am the next day. The guy had just gotten the sixth member. I hopped on and did the mission. I can't remember what job it was that we so desperately needed for that specific mission, but I can tell you that I'm glad that that sort of thing is such a rare occurrence these days.

The problem with slowing down exp, is that most people find collecting gear on high level jobs through various different types of events more fun / rewarding than just leveling a job (not all people, but most) and by limiting the speed with which people can level jobs, you limit the amount of gear collecting they can / will do.

[Eyeballed]

Funny story. When I was attempting to finish CoP, I actually joined a group with a guy that was shouting at about 7:00pm one night. I sat and watched Netflix and drank beer while he shouted for the next several hours. I passed out in my chair and woke up about 2:00am. I looked and we still only had 3 people. I went to bed and woke up about 9:00am the next day. The guy had just gotten the sixth member. I hopped on and did the mission. I can't remember what job it was that we so desperately needed for that specific mission, but I can tell you that I'm glad that that sort of thing is such a rare occurrence these days.

You mean to say that 3 people stayed in the same group for 14 hours and you just happened to wake up the moment he got the last member? What are the chances of that? - Like 1 in a couple thousand trillion? At any rate, if you want to do the mission also, shouldn't you help look for members too and not leave it up to the leader and then complain later on how long it took to get the mission started? Wait, I forgot who I'm talking to; Nevermind.

[Rustic]

Dynamis used to last way too long and require too much scheduling. Other than that and the shitty drop rates, I found it to be a fun and rewarding event. The AF quests had some cool story lines and stuff, but I didn't enjoy the excessive amount of running around to places that were intentionally made annoying to travel to / through. I'd say I felt pretty well rewarded when I finished my first set of af. When I went to start on a set for my next job, it didn't feel nearly as rewarding. I feel like they could have made the finding of chests portion into a one time thing that didn't have to be repeated for subsequent jobs. I'd say it's sort of a wash honestly.

And they've adjusted Dynamis to a once-a-day thing, and in addition, it's even soloable to an extent. Mind you, they've also managed to successfully cut out the massive travel time part as of this patch with the proto-waypoint quest. Given how much this will cut out of to-and-froing about on running around, does that change your opinions?


That only sounds crazy because of how long it used to take to level jobs. In reality it's stupid for them to keep adding jobs if no one has time to level them. Which also means that they can't really build content around those jobs unless they find a way to get more people to use them (faster leveling process). Besides, who want to pay a company to design stuff that is too inaccessible for them to ever use? If there are going to be 22 jobs, then I want to use them all at some point.

Which, incidentally puts you in a rare spot. Most games, people gravitate towards what we'd consider just specific jobs- some people like playing support, others like being tanks/melee DD, still others prefer being the backline bombadiers raining down bullets, bolts, and elemental blasts. I'm suggesting about 1-2 months per job if you wanted to level them up, rather than 1-2 days (as soon as you have Abyssea access and can sit there going 30-99 without breathing heavy). Again, I don't want jobs to be inaccessible- but I do want there to actually be a low-mid-high-end process of advancement that actually involves going out there and playing.


They did that to force people to level more jobs.

And then made a system in which leveling said extra jobs is a trivial process. Counterproductive, you think?


Need gear from X event? Level X job ==>
Now you need gear from Y event to gear Y job ==>
That event requires Z job ==>
Now you must level Z job to gear job Y ==>
During the course of all this you acquire extra gear for R job so you decide to level that too

This all leads to job diversity and longer play time. It's a vicious cycle, but it's pretty brilliant if you think about it.

Mind you, I was one of those players that had a whopping -two- jobs leveled up to endgame points. RDM, and COR. While you'd think it was true...it wasn't. Now, I had plenty of jobs in the subjob (37 then, 49 now) range...but those jobs don't and never have taken the level of gear investment a 75-now-99 job does. Sure, I leveled BLM, WHM, SCH for my Red Mage. I leveled RNG to go with my Corsair. But those investments in time and gear were nothing compared to main jobs- even today, you wouldn't even go into your AF1 stuff to be properly geared going from 1-49. In Dynamis, sure I could end up with random AF2 drops as I went along...but it was like anything else. If I wasn't interested in doing it, I didn't need it, I didn't take it.

The flaw was in making jobs "junk" for any given event or "required" for same. With the level cap gone, this became a lot less painful for earlier content as it became either "Doable at X level with job A, or Y level with job (B,C,D...)." That is, content no longer became barred to anything but specific jobs because they're the only ones that can do things at that level- instead, people can engage that content by getting more powerful in another direction and fighting the fight later. Can't take out Ultima/Omega? Get some more levels and take it on again. Alexander? You get the idea. If it's not endgame content, you can train up on ordinary monsters and take it down, and that process is (at this point) beyond painless- and basically, anything up through WoTG can be done in this fashion. I'd honestly say that the same should apply for Abyssea with Adoulin. If you're finding yourself stymied on doing endgame content on it, the next expansion should allow casual players to break through that barrier with "regular" content.


I actually agree for the most part. I think it would be cool if they made it so that some zones had books and people could burn like they do now, while other zones had no books, but offered far higher exp per kill, so that a traditional group of 6 could exp outside just as fast as an abbysea burn group does inside (or at least close to that). I doubt that many people would choose it over abbysea, but it might make a few nostalgic cats happy. I think 2 weeks per job should be tops though. Even at that speed, we're still talking about almost 6+ months of just straight leveling for people that want to take all the jobs to cap.

Two weeks is basically saying "Just give me a level in every job as soon as I get it in any one of them.". Double that. Make it a month of hardcore leveling if you want that job 1-99, two months if you take it easy. Getting a job to 49? Sure, quick and relatively easy for all those subjobs you want. 50-99 should actually take more effort- that's someone who's leveling a job to the top.

And honestly, S-E should have learned it's lesson when we started going "colibris or GTFO" with ToAU- one zone shouldn't be superior exp over another, and FoV gave them the tuning tools for it. Not Abyssea, not nothing.


I would agree with you, except that I think they would make something far worse if they did. I just don't like the idea of changing things in a way that will make people feel like they missed the boat.

Once upon a time, HNM's were something fought over for spawns and controlled by RMTs who used their access to easy power to get a virtual lock on the game and it's economy. We changed that. Now we have a system by which RMT are getting their grasp once again on the economy- via selling powerleveling instead. One chunk of the RMT engine was knocked out when blinkers got nerfed. Now we need to take out the other one- the powerleveling engine that channels buckets of the gil in the economy into the hands of RMTs who just have a 24/7 PL team good to go by the hour, times up to sixteen, with a multiboxed healer keeping the whole thing rolling along while you sleep and dream of 9's. Congratulations, you have experienced the Cirno method of "I'm the Strongest!".

http://en.touhouwiki.net/images/e/e2/Th128Cirno.png

Behold, the Fairy of 9_9 for Final Fantasy 11

In effect, the way exp is gained is not only damaging the whole cycle of people leveling jobs, but it's acidic to the economy as well. Prior to this, since it was pay cleave party -> Take It Easy -> enjoy L99 -> turn results of leech mode into Gil, we turned both the exp and the money pumps up to maximum, feeding plenty of cash into the system. Heck, the RMTs doing all the work even got payola in the process, reducing gil-farming to the most mindless level ever.

Now we're in a habit of looking towards those pay-to-play alliances as the method of choice. Just like HNM access of old, now it's "Hey, those guys are always ready to make my leveling experience a breeze, and the rates are what I'm used to, so..."...as you hand the money straight into the nice bot-teams hands, who in turn launder it through AH purchases (just like the old days, oopsie I paid 1,000,000 for that 1,000 Gil AH item nobody else buys, clumsy me!) and into accounts ripe and ready to both manipulate the economy into higher levels of inflation and feed your need for Gil in exchange for your dollar bills or currency-of-choice (credit cards accepted). The flow of Gil may be lower into the system, but we're still channeling it into the hands of RMT-friendly characters.


Not a terrible idea. I'm not gonna lie though. I'm fine with how abyssea leveling works. I don't mind having lot's of people with lot's of jobs leveled. I don't miss the days of playing red mage at every event because we already had a mandau thief in the shell and I didn't want to spend 9 months leveling Samurai. Or spending hours shouting for a bard so that I could merit for 30 minutes before he D/Cs. I was especially thankful for it when SE decided to block me from paying the bill on my 8 year old JP account because I live in NA thus forcing me to turn my mule into my main and reroll another mule.

And here's the fun part. If S-E poured napalm on the Abyssea zone servers and reduced them to slag, we'd STILL never see those days again. The other changes S-E put into the system would have resulted in a much, much more gentle hill to climb from 1-99 vs. even what ToAU players had from 1-75, thanks to FoV. Not only that, if Abyssea wasn't the exp fountain it is, S-E could literally tweak XP gain by zone simply by dropping training pages into the appropriate zone books. It would be that simple.

1) Pick EP-level monster X job can take down without going insane.
2) Put in page that involves ganking said monster.
3) Watch players zip in and level solo at precisely the speed S-E desired.
4) Profit.

Want monsters for parties to kill? Same deal, only you're looking at even-match+ targets instead for however and whenever you want those parties there. Monsters are tougher? Better reward for training so page + party = good exp, regardless of where said party is taking out monsters. A more simple way to get people to go from zone to zone could not have been put in short of applying a nose ring everyone would have to wear when playing FFXI that would tug them painfully until they zoned where you wanted them to go next.


Funny story. When I was attempting to finish CoP, I actually joined a group with a guy that was shouting at about 7:00pm one night. I sat and watched Netflix and drank beer while he shouted for the next several hours. I passed out in my chair and woke up about 2:00am. I looked and we still only had 3 people. I went to bed and woke up about 9:00am the next day. The guy had just gotten the sixth member. I hopped on and did the mission. I can't remember what job it was that we so desperately needed for that specific mission, but I can tell you that I'm glad that that sort of thing is such a rare occurrence these days.

See above. Caps are what caused this issue- by the point we hit ToAU, people should have been able to go into Assault, gear up, and get through their CoP missions without agonizing barriers built out of "Your level has been reduced to 40" and tightly pigeonholing the battles to specific jobs or GTFO. When content is no longer the newest, the newest should hold the method by which players who are behind can catch up to the current state of affairs.


The problem with slowing down exp, is that most people find collecting gear on high level jobs through various different types of events more fun / rewarding than just leveling a job (not all people, but most) and by limiting the speed with which people can level jobs, you limit the amount of gear collecting they can / will do.

Except that the reason people are going "Glee! High level gear collect time, go go go" is because they get no use out of lower level gear whatsoever now. What you're stating is untrue- if it was, I wouldn't have seen people making a killing selling white-box bits or NM-related bit of gear they came across- because being in best gear, regardless of level was an addictive feeling. Ask every player that had an Emperor/Empress hairpin if it wasn't. Gear was treasured because it was rare, potent and useful- and because it was more powerful than average, it was useful longer. Now, when you might only wear a piece of gear for a day on the way up no matter how good it is, why bother?

The reason people are going towards high level gear is because thanks to the current system of advancement, it's all that matters- you aren't low level long enough to feel that anything save the budget basics matter. If that. And again, this does a number on the effective content of FFXI- who cares about content that rewards you with stuff you find meaningless in the long run? That helps to indeed effectively reduce the game to "collect gear on high level job, repeat", and that in turn massively reduces player lifespan and increases the burnout rate for good measure. This, too damages FFXI.

Narrowing the game to 99 is indeed effectively making the game all about "9"'s. A bad thing.

[Arcon]

Narrowing the game to 99 is indeed effectively making the game all about "9"'s. A bad thing.

No .

[Rustic]

No.

Okay, then. Why do we have level 1-98 then at this point? Explain.

[Arcon]

Okay, then. Why do we have level 1-98 then at this point? Explain.

For people like you who wouldn't know what else to do if they didn't have their precious EXP. Everyone else has moved on. SE could auto-cap people's levels to 99 and I wouldn't care. I'm done leveling completely anyway, as are many other people. That's what the last decade was for.

[SpankWustler]

I am a blob of pessimism, filled with Flamin' Hot Cheetos and regret. I shall slough over all, weeping my cynical slime.


Once upon a time, HNM's were something fought over for spawns and controlled by RMTs who used their access to easy power to get a virtual lock on the game and it's economy.

I wish the people who I remember gathering at usually-not-Nidhogg were RMT. People who wanted to make money in real life never would have invested so much time in something so relatively unproductive. I suspect RMT would have left after three days and my shame would have felt all the more acute for I would have been doing something as a hobby that somebody else passed over as a job.

It's been a long time, but you're talking about the guys who piled into Sky, yeah? They were a pain, but it's a huge stretch to say RMT had control over anything other than the huge golem with a funny name who dropped half a Byakko pop-set.


Ask every player that had an Emperor/Empress hairpin if it wasn't. Gear was treasured because it was rare, potent and useful- and because it was more powerful than average, it was useful longer.

Equipping in the olden dayes isn't as positive as a lot of people like to remember.

Some equipment was so sough after in those days because all other options were bad, spectacularly bad to the point of adding only defense. Other times, items were just assumed to have quality equal to their rarity because few people fully understood what various bonuses actually did.

Edit: To tie my points together with this off-topic topic as a whole, it's great to have a feeling of drama or nostalgia, but those things are just feelings. They're not concrete and not everyone is going to share them.

[FrankReynolds]

You mean to say that 3 people stayed in the same group for 14 hours and you just happened to wake up the moment he got the last member? What are the chances of that? - Like 1 in a couple thousand trillion? At any rate, if you want to do the mission also, shouldn't you help look for members too and not leave it up to the leader and then complain later on how long it took to get the mission started? Wait, I forgot who I'm talking to; Nevermind.

And yes, I realize exactly how incredibly unlikely it was that I would wake up just in time. That was the interesting part of the story. I know that you like to imagine that you're sooooo awesome that if you had been in that group, you would have filled it up in a minute or two, but you're wrong. If you were half as good as you think you are at forming groups and getting things done, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.






And then made a system in which leveling said extra jobs is a trivial process. Counterproductive, you think?





I don't have time to read all this, because I'm about to leave for the company xmas party, but I did want to respond to this ^ because I think you might have missed what I was trying to convey.

It's not counterproductive. They no longer need you to spend all your time leveling. They have created sufficient endgame content for you to stay entertained with (by "you" I mean the general populace). What they do need is for you to have a bevy of jobs leveled so that you can use them to participate in that content.

They can't very easily keep making mid-grade content because most people who have already leveled whatever jobs they like will just ignore it or become angry that they can't use the abilities / gear they have earned for the content. They can however (or more accurately they already did) speed up the leveling process so that everyone has access to high level content.

To sum it up: losing stats, abilities etc. to level synch is annoying. Losing the ability to spend months / years leveling is not so bad in comparison. Especially when you consider that the ability to waste time leveling is still there sans the people who actually like it.

[Caketime]

The Snark in this thread is nearing critical levels.

[Rustic]

For people like you who wouldn't know what else to do if they didn't have their precious EXP. Everyone else has moved on. SE could auto-cap people's levels to 99 and I wouldn't care. I'm done leveling completely anyway, as are many other people. That's what the last decade was for.

Till Geomancer/Rune Fencer show up, anyway. But hey, you're hardcore. Grats on the Maat's Cap++ level of dedication. You're effectively done with the game at this point until a new expansion shows up. Everything's old hat to you, you've likely run CoP missions till your eyes bled, fought Alexander enough times that you have your name on the list, could draw Lilith from memory with your off hand, and the words "Shadow Lord" on your screen trigger migraines and the only thing of interest to you at this point is whatever new comes along in the next expansion plus the next iteration of L99 gear.

In other words, you're done with 99% of the content. Now, tell me why it's a good thing that the current system renders a similar amount of the game meaningless to new players, and why new players would even come into a game like that- and in fact, how the game sustains itself without them.


I am a blob of pessimism, filled with Flamin' Hot Cheetos and regret. I shall slough over all, weeping my cynical slime.

And that slime smells like Mountain Dew and sorrow.


I wish the people who I remember gathering at usually-not-Nidhogg were RMT. People who wanted to make money in real life never would have invested so much time in something so relatively unproductive. I suspect RMT would have left after three days and my shame would have felt all the more acute for I would have been doing something as a hobby that somebody else passed over as a job.

Thus the "fought over for spawns" bit. RMT didn't control them, but boooooy you couldn't swing a dead mandragora in Dragon's Aery without hitting someone using a claimbot from one HNMLS or another. RMT groups did in the very early NA days still sit there claiming a lot of HNMs or even NMs, but with the first real bansticking that started to fade in a hurry, and most of the roadblocking was sitting there blocking access to Sky. Here, this was 2006:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/38449-RMT-countermeasures/page3

"Prices for items on Alexander... RMT Bazaar
Autumnstone 11mil
Summerstone 6mil
Springstone 6mil
Gem of the west 3mil
Seiryu Seal 300k
Suzaku Seal 300k
Byakko Seal 8mil
Genbu Seal 10k"


It's been a long time, but you're talking about the guys who piled into Sky, yeah? They were a pain, but it's a huge stretch to say RMT had control over anything other than the huge golem with a funny name who dropped half a Byakko pop-set.

See above. Till S-E really, REALLY got to clubbing RMT over the head, they had a tight grip on Sky for years.


Equipping in the olden dayes isn't as positive as a lot of people like to remember.

Some equipment was so sough after in those days because all other options were bad, spectacularly bad to the point of adding only defense. Other times, items were just assumed to have quality equal to their rarity because few people fully understood what various bonuses actually did.

Of course, as we headed upwards levelwise, the stat pool for items got bigger as well. And yeah, you had crappy items, the same way we can look in the AH today and see rare, crappy items that nobody equips. But the point was that good items, regardless of level requirement, WERE prized, hunted, bought, sold, used.

Not anymore. Those NMs sit, un-wanted, un-needed, along with most of the zones in the game. Yeah, they're old news to you, the long-term player who's done all that a dozen times. The problem is that if there's no use to those zones for anything- leveling, item hunting, whatever- it narrows the game considerably. It reduces the value of that game to newer players when they look around at what's seemingly a vast array of content and are told "Nah, nobody does any of that. Get to 99 and endgame event everything, all the time." - and then you show them how to skip 68 levels by doing nothing as someone waves a great axe in circles while dualboxing a healer in an endless cycle of dead chigoes and the victory theme playing every few.

Players stay where they invest. FFXI has reduced that investment to the point where new players are newbie, L30, L99, and "why aren't you in Empyreal Paradox, noob". It's an awful fragile tether compared to folks who got their airship pass, AF, DM earring, their CoP ring, ToAU ring, etc. etc. when each step along the line mattered and took effort. When a game overtrivializes it's achievements along the way, it loses that grip it has on players to continue playing. We become a community of the hardcore, for the hardcore, crumbling away one burnout at a time with no new faces to replace them.


Edit: To tie my points together with this off-topic topic as a whole, it's great to have a feeling of drama or nostalgia, but those things are just feelings. They're not concrete and not everyone is going to share them.

No, they aren't- but it's that investment of feeling into a game that hooks players and keeps them playing- the lifeblood of any MMO. Hell, I'm not nostalgic about a lot of my time in FFXI- but it's the times that did inspire drama or do inspire nostalgia that get me to keep logging in and throwing my $12.95 or so S-E's way. They're the investments that keep a player grinding through endgame content, the ones that kept older players in Dynamis for years, hammering against CoP missions, getting parties together to exp or merit, camping that NM for days straight, synthing that 50th time for a fortune in mats to get that last 0.1 skillup rather than saying "Screw this" and never coming back.

We've trivialized so much of the process of progress that we've lost the very process of investment that produces players like us. Players that stay, and play, and buy new expansions, and keep the game population alive.

I'm all for not having to repeat that cycle and level of investment for people at the same intensity who have gone through the dance before. What's happened is that we've eliminated the cycle for everyone, new AND old instead- not merely made it easier to do that next job to 49 or 99, but made it so trivial as to be meaningless. Sit in place. Watch exp flow in. Get job to 99 so we can do that endgame run as X job instead of Y or Z. Woohoo. Achievement. Pride. Not.

No more "I'm going to go into Giddeus and hunt down that Yagudo cause I want the staff for my bard, I'll use that for months" or "I'm going to Crawler's Nest to sneak around cause I need a coffer for my AF" or "Wow, I just leveled up in (insert strange zone here) and I wish I'd known it was that awesome when I leveled (oldjob)!". With each part of the game we trivialize, the road is narrower, the feeling of worth from doing something along it lessened, the desire to go further more easily derailed.

We need those feelings and a process that inspires them, however they're expressed to players, or the game becomes only a haven for those who got them before they were removed and we'll all be in FFXIV. In that sense, I actually think of Abyssea as being constructed to create a curtain to pull across the game. Show's over. Here's the easymode key, we'll just throw some endgame stuff for you dedicated players to do until the population burns enough out to justify closing FFXI down and we can concentrate on FFXIV and how we're investing players in that instead, thanks for playing, we'll see you in the next MMO.

If it isn't changed, I don't see much of a future for FFXI past Adoulin, as either FFXIV will again become a talent sink that removes developer efforts from FFXI, or the player population, starved of new players will drop below the critical numbers needed to sustain the game. I'm not saying "restore the grind of old or we perish", but if there's no emotional reward to investing time into the game other than the narrowest road to 99, FFXI will be a game that only appeals to the endgame player playing the endgame games, and a game cannot do this and survive in the long term.

[SpankWustler]

I have to address one vital thing before I leave for a racist relative's place to be horrified at the ways she's dreaming of a White Power Christmas.

Seriously, this is vital!

VITAL!


And that slime smells like Mountain Dew and sorrow.

I bought the wrong type and scent of deodorant last week, forcing me to really layer the stuff on and making "Mountain Dew and sorrow" a disturbingly accurate description of how I smell.

[Rustic]

Seriously, this is vital!

VITAL!

I bought the wrong type and scent of deodorant last week, forcing me to really layer the stuff on and making "Mountain Dew and sorrow" a disturbingly accurate description of how I smell.

You know how sometimes people say "I could smell that through the monitor?" :)

(Kidding!)

[Eyeballed]

And yes, I realize exactly how incredibly unlikely it was that I would wake up just in time. That was the interesting part of the story. I know that you like to imagine that you're sooooo awesome that if you had been in that group, you would have filled it up in a minute or two, but you're wrong. If you were half as good as you think you are at forming groups and getting things done, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Don't get jealous now. But seriously, if I wanted to get a mission done and my leader was having trouble filling the spots, I sure as shit wouldn't opt out for "beer and Netflix" while someone else did their best to recruit the remainder and then have the audacity to come out and complain that the leader didn't fill the group fast enough. When will you kids learn that life just doesn't drop into your lap while you sit around scratching your balls and stroking your cat?

I mean, if a small fire erupted in your house do you get a bucket of water/fire extinguisher or call the fire department and wait outside?

DO SOMETHING (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMTDQZzQMKk)!!!

[Carth]

This thread has gone completely stupid.

Are we seriously arguing about old vs new? This is no better than the "Abyssea ruined FFXI" argument.

Oh wait...

[Prrsha]

For people like you who wouldn't know what else to do if they didn't have their precious EXP. Everyone else has moved on. SE could auto-cap people's levels to 99 and I wouldn't care. I'm done leveling completely anyway, as are many other people. That's what the last decade was for.

I sort of agree with you like I said before. If SE wants to make getting exp easier to get then it is now, remove the system entirely, because SE has trivalized it to that point. Whether it will help FFXI or not, that is another debate.


The Snark in this thread is nearing critical levels.

Ah, I love half-life... go Black Mesa! :3 http://www.blackmesasource.com/


Not anymore. Those NMs sit, un-wanted, un-needed, along with most of the zones in the game. Yeah, they're old news to you, the long-term player who's done all that a dozen times. The problem is that if there's no use to those zones for anything- leveling, item hunting, whatever- it narrows the game considerably. It reduces the value of that game to newer players when they look around at what's seemingly a vast array of content and are told "Nah, nobody does any of that. Get to 99 and endgame event everything, all the time." - and then you show them how to skip 68 levels by doing nothing as someone waves a great axe in circles while dualboxing a healer in an endless cycle of dead chigoes and the victory theme playing every few.

The basically sums up the problem.

Another problem is that SE thought placing level 75+ monsters in zones right next (or 2 zones away) from starting zones would generate more traffic in those areas. That was a huge mistake. If anything it make the game less newbee friendly and just served to frustrate crucial new customers. It handed them a dose of confusion while making it near impossible to do low level quests at low level (like they were designed to do).

One of SE's first thing on their agenda would be to remove those monsters (as high level players level elsewhere anyways). They do more harm then good. At the very least move them to higher level but accessable areas like crawlers nest. By then players know how to evade mobs and have access to abilities to go undetected.

[FrankReynolds]

Don't get jealous now. But seriously, if I wanted to get a mission done and my leader was having trouble filling the spots, I sure as shit wouldn't opt out for "beer and Netflix" while someone else did their best to recruit the remainder and then have the audacity to come out and complain that the leader didn't fill the group fast enough. When will you kids learn that life just doesn't drop into your lap while you sit around scratching your balls and stroking your cat?

I mean, if a small fire erupted in your house do you get a bucket of water/fire extinguisher or call the fire department and wait outside?

DO SOMETHING (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMTDQZzQMKk)!!!

You're quite dense. I wasn't complaining that "that the leader didn't fill the group fast enough". I was complaining that a shitty system existed that forced him to look for people for that long because there were no compatible jobs available. Try to follow the topic.

And WTF are you trying to tout a better work ethic than me now? You better save that crap for someone who cares. I play my video games for fun, I always scratch my balls and drink beer while I'm doing it and I still do great :)

[Eyeballed]

Your quite dense. I wasn't complaining that "that the leader didn't fill the group fast enough". I was complaining that a shitty system existed that forced him to look for people for that long because there were no compatible jobs available. Try to follow the topic.

And WTF are you trying to tout a better work ethic than me now? You better save that crap for someone who cares. I play my video games for fun, I always scratch my balls and drink beer while I'm doing it and I still do great :)

The reason it took FOURTEEN HOURS to fill the group has a lot more to do with a lack of organizational skills from all parties involved and a lack of member participation to rectify said dilemma rather than a problem with the "system" which is apparently flawed in all ways that does not magically fill your party slots for you whilst you engage in other activities that you obviously hold in higher regard. I'm dense? Coming from you, that's quite a compliment; I didn't think you had it in you.

But go on, drink your beer and watch your films and keep bitching until they put an AUTO-WIN button right next to PLAY GAME at startup, so in the days you have better things to do, you can still get something accomplished. Regarding your last statement, apparently these two choice activities (amongst sleeping, of all things) didn't work out too well for you.

The proof is in the pudding, and you sir are the fucking Bill Cosby of "What's Wrong with MMO's Today?"

[Carth]

The reason it took FOURTEEN HOURS to fill the group has a lot more to do with a lack of organizational skills from all parties involved and a lack of member participation to rectify said dilemma rather than a problem with the "system" which is apparently flawed in all ways that does not magically fill your party slots for you whilst you engage in other activities that you obviously hold in higher regard. I'm dense? Coming from you, that's quite a compliment; I didn't think you had it in you.

But go on, drink your beer and watch your films and keep bitching until they put an AUTO-WIN button right next to PLAY GAME at startup, so in the days you have better things to do, you can still get something accomplished. Regarding your last statement, apparently these two choice activities (amongst sleeping, of all things) didn't work out too well for you.

The proof is in the pudding, and you sir are the fucking Bill Cosby of "What's Wrong with MMO's Today?"

This is an idiotic argument. Sorry Mr. Nostalgia, but back in those days, the same thing happened to me (except after hour #8 I just gave up). It's not because "you weren't trying hard enough", but the playerbase was so dumb back then that unless they needed the same quest, they aren't willing to inconvenience themselves to help others.

Specifically, my situation was the Savage Blade NM quest. I was completely ready for the quest, but I needed others to open the weighted doors. Now take a step back and realize this was in 2005, and back in those days, we didn't even have a clue how to properly grind for EXP. This is why it's no surprise that the majority of the playerbase believed you needed an alliance for the quest purely because you needed to the open the weighted doors in Quicksand caves and race to gate (this is because no one knew you had 30 minutes to go in after the gate opened). Damn near every fansite and the wiki stated this, and it was further solidified when my Sky LS told me the same thing, and they specifically postponed doing the quest for me for this false fact.

This is doubly true with CoP. You can argue that Frank should've asked his linkshell for help, but you're completely missing the point if you are. It doesn't excuse the fact that the playerbase as a whole were idiots, and unless they have a guide sitting in front of them, doing a PUG in CoP was asking for failure. I know this because I specifically became the CoP leader for my old linkshell when it was still capped, because I needed members to get my CoP missions done, but everyone else were stuck on the Promyvion missions because for some reason, there's always only 2 out of 6 members that actually feel assed enough to come prepared and have their "Make this boss retarded" items, so I had to make a strict guide showing that everyone needed to bring their items and the party setups were the most optimal.

The reason why it's so hard to get members in the first place is because the people that actually have CoP done doesn't dare do them again because they don't want to farm the items needed just to simply help out (this is why SE eventually allowed Anima and other "boss rape" items to be buyable on the AH). I can't blame them either. Who wants to waste their time getting items and a proper job and proper equipment(pre-level sync) for someone else, when your chances of success aren't guaranteed?

No matter how you slice it, this is terrible design, and the level sync mechanics only mildly curbed this problem. This is why SE uncapped CoP, because they realized the people who already have their Rajas were not going back to help other people, and as the game became more top-heavy, there were even less low levels that were available to form CoP parties.

[Eyeballed]

This is an idiotic argument.

You know what's even more idiotic?, You're defending the non-efforts of Bill with a blast against the whole community. Way to pass the buck. The more you people talk, it's as if you're claiming you couldn't do a damn thing in this game because you're smarter than everyone else - whatever intelligence has to do with motivation, I don't know. I suppose this makes those of you on that side of the fence stars among retards?

Whether in 1905, 2005, or 2055 your outlook is trash.

[Carth]

You know what's even more idiotic?, You're defending the non-efforts of Bill with a blast against the whole community. Way to pass the buck. The more you people talk, it's as if you're claiming you couldn't do a damn thing in this game because you're smarter than everyone else - whatever intelligence has to do with motivation, I don't know. I suppose this makes those of you on that side of the fence stars among retards?

Whether in 1905, 2005, or 2055 your outlook is trash.

Cherrypick fallacy.

You decided to pull a statement out of context and therefore use that as a main argument in order to make yourself look like you have a winning argument, when in fact you have nothing.

If you're going to make a rebuttal, make an actual argument instead of trying to make yourself look like a bleeding heart.

[Eyeballed]

Cherrypick fallacy.

You decided to pull a statement out of context and therefore use that as a main argument in order to make yourself look like you have a winning argument, when in fact you have nothing.

If you're going to make a rebuttal, make an actual argument instead of trying to make yourself look like a bleeding heart.

Read back. The original argument was not against mission design or the (restrictive) requirements thereof. It was, however, against the pervading tactics of a group member who conveniently blames the aforementioned "design flaws" when he states himself he did nothing on his own part to alleviate the problem. This distorts his claim of what the real problem might be, and in the very least does not well support his case.

And funnily enough, you go on to add that it's not only these strict requirements that inhibit progression, but also the community of mongoloids you're forced to play with.

Edit: Why did you ever play this game again, either of you? I'm seriously at a loss for understanding.

[FrankReynolds]

You would have to be pretty retarded to think that I hadn't already mentioned to my shell / friends that I was attempting to do the quest and I really don't see how having two people shout for the same thing in the same zone (this was before /yell when everyone stayed in one place). I mean you're really just going on about how much better you are at forming groups and that completely goes against your argument that people who want old school style play can't find groups.

[detlef]

Eyeballed is the most entertaining nostalgia troll ever, more so than Rosina. I'm glad he's posting again.

[Ceinwyn]

Nostalagie is the only good thing this game has to offer >.>

[detlef]

If you really think that, you're missing out on a lot of content.

[Demon6324236]

I determined a while back that thats basically the case with everyone on the same side of this as Eye.

[Ceinwyn]

Probably but endgame in FFXI is just too time consuming and not even that exciting.
I liked FFXI back in the days where u was forced to grind and visit areas like boyada tree to work on ure character progress.
If i want endgame i go to wow, lots of better mechanics, honestly.

[Raksha]

Probably but endgame in FFXI is just too time consuming and not even that exciting.




I liked FFXI back in the days where u was forced to grind and visit areas like boyada tree to work on ure character progress.




10char....

[SpankWustler]

Probably but endgame in FFXI is just too time consuming and not even that exciting.
I liked FFXI back in the days where u was forced to grind and visit areas like boyada tree to work on ure character progress.
If i want endgame i go to wow, lots of better mechanics, honestly.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Money/Pix/pictures/2012/1/16/1326713800322/A-woman-doing-the-ironing-007.jpg

[Carth]

And funnily enough, you go on to add that it's not only these strict requirements that inhibit progression, but also the community of mongoloids you're forced to play with.
If your only argument is "Mommy, Carth is being a bully! ;-;" , I'm just wasting my time.


Edit: Why did you ever play this game again, either of you? I'm seriously at a loss for understanding.
Because EXP is not 100% of this game.

[Eyeballed]

If your only argument is "Mommy, Carth is being a bully! ;-;" , I'm just wasting my time.


Because EXP is not 100% of this game.

That's not my only argument, and if you'd bothered to read and soak in all that I've said in this thread you'd know that my issue is not 100% EXP, nor endgame, nor anything in between. It's finding the reason MMO's on the whole suck so badly when, at one time, they were good with all the things both you and I liked within. Everyone concedes the genre is changing and "moving on", and I'd really like to see how you can prove this evolution has done any service to these games. I'm honestly astounded nobody has fallen back on the everlasting "If you don't like this game then go play something else!" quip.

And in case you missed it, endgame is not 100% of a game either. And don't give me that horseshit claim that it's still around. It is in its most superficial sense, and that's being generous.

[Arcon]

Till Geomancer/Rune Fencer show up, anyway. But hey, you're hardcore. Grats on the Maat's Cap++ level of dedication. You're effectively done with the game at this point until a new expansion shows up. Everything's old hat to you, you've likely run CoP missions till your eyes bled, fought Alexander enough times that you have your name on the list, could draw Lilith from memory with your off hand, and the words "Shadow Lord" on your screen trigger migraines and the only thing of interest to you at this point is whatever new comes along in the next expansion plus the next iteration of L99 gear.

In other words, you're done with 99% of the content. Now, tell me why it's a good thing that the current system renders a similar amount of the game meaningless to new players, and why new players would even come into a game like that- and in fact, how the game sustains itself without them.

First of all, I never said any of that applied to me, and it doesn't. If I didn't have anything left to experience in this game, I'd quit. Second, every item you mentioned except for EXP I love and I would do again, and I help everyone out with. You are completely off base listing all of that, because none of it I have a problem with, and none of it I want to keep from others (again, EXP being the sole exception).

And even back when I never did any of it at all, I still hated EXP. I already said a few posts ago, there is only one thing I dislike about EXP. I can deal with grinds. I can deal with time sinks. I can deal with slow (or even no) rewards. The only thing I cannot deal with is boredom, and that's what defines EXP to me. You're trying to make it out to be a lot more than it is.


Edit: Why did you ever play this game again, either of you? I'm seriously at a loss for understanding.

I'm not surprised, you don't seem to understand much. If you read and understood any of what we said you wouldn't even be asking that, because we enjoyed the game for the same reasons we still enjoy it now, namely endgame.

You know what, I hate that term. Because it invariably makes people with an IQ lower than their shoe size think that the game is somehow at its end once it gets there, and sadly, as any internet forum, this place abounds with those people. That kind of reasoning is complete bullshit. The game does not end at endgame. Endgame simply refers to the end of the leveling system. The game branches out in a myriad of directions once there. It has tons of events, not just for hardcore players but also for very casual players. Everyone can find some fun in endgame except for the people who think the game only consists of EXP, and more importantly, who think that the game should only consist of EXP. Because those are the people who refuse to be proven wrong and go on and on against the rest of the world thinking they have it all figured out.

And those people I ask: Why are you still playing? You are the one discontent with everything the game is about right now. You are the one bitching at every turn, complaining about the state of the game, the state of all MMOGs, the community, the developers, and every aspect related to FFXI I can think of. I honestly see no reason for why you would still be playing.


Probably but endgame in FFXI is just too time consuming and not even that exciting.

You are aware that you are defending old EXP, right? Because you saying that is absurd in every conceivable way.


That's not my only argument, and if you'd bothered to read and soak in all that I've said in this thread you'd know that my issue is not 100% EXP, nor endgame, nor anything in between. It's finding the reason MMO's on the whole suck so badly when, at one time, they were good with all the things both you and I liked within.

If MMOGs suck so badly, why are they one of the most profitable and still heavily growing markets in the entire world, whereas ten years ago they were almost unknown, during a time you proclaimed everything was awesome in?


And in case you missed it, endgame is not 100% of a game either.

Aside from crafting, it very much is.

[FrankReynolds]

they were good with all the things both you and I liked within.

The thing is... Back then I had to do the things that you liked, but you did not have to do the things that I like. I am no longer forced to do things your way and it saddens you because it turns out that most of the people who were doing the things you like, didn't actually like them. They were just a means to an end.


I don't want to go back to doing mid-level material on my maxed out character and even if I had to start over for some terrible reason, I would not want more mid-level crap placed in my path back to where I am now. I feel like a large portion of the population would agree with that statement for a large variety of reasons.

You're like one of those old hippies who became a cut throat yuppie lawyer and then had a midlife crisis and is now trying to recapture the spirit of wood stock by forcing all his friends to do LSD. You just can't recreate the place and time that once existed and you would do better for yourself if you left it the fond memory it is instead of ruining the present trying to bring it back.

[Demon6324236]

Honestly not everything is Endgame at 99 either, Abyssea isn't endgame, leveling in Abyssea, and parties such as worms or Dom Ops are what I would say are earlyish, seals, as well as all of the old 75 content are kinda midgame now, and VW/Prov/NeoLimbus/NeoSalvage/Legion/NeoOdin are all basically Endgame. Not all 99 content is endgame, Abyssea is proof of that.

[Eyeballed]

I'm not surprised, you don't seem to understand much.

Trust me, the feeling's mutual. And the whole point in having a debate/conversation is to gain understanding and unfortunately all I've gathered is exactly what you've said in that the grind is boring and therefore unnecessary. I'm sorry, "It's boring and I hate it because it's boring." will never be a good reason to not do anything.


If MMOGs suck so badly, why are they one of the most profitable and still heavily growing markets in the entire world, whereas ten years ago they were almost unknown, during a time you proclaimed everything was awesome in?

Excuse me sir, what planet do you live on? Because it sure as hell isn't Earth.


Aside from crafting, it very much is.

Yes, and we all learned back in 1985 with Super Mario Bros. that we didn't need to repeatedly jump, evade, get fire flower, shoot fireballs for 85% of the game in order to find it fun and amusing. All we needed was 8 Bowsers to have a complete game. Gee, I wonder what developers were thinking??!

Of course the boss battles are the most fun and engaging part of the game with their drops/rewards the sweetest of all, but you cannot make a game comprised of entirely that! If you DO, then you have NO REASON for an open world, and at the same time a game full of sidegrade/modest upgrade rewards because tossing out more difficult enemies for which to suffice their existence is not something developers just casually do! So instead of the old grind, what you now have is the new grind and a .001 chance of getting that next sidegrade piece of gear! What about this do you NOT understand?!!


You would have to be pretty retarded to think that I hadn't already mentioned to my shell / friends that I was attempting to do the quest and I really don't see how having two people shout for the same thing in the same zone (this was before /yell when everyone stayed in one place). I mean you're really just going on about how much better you are at forming groups and that completely goes against your argument that people who want old school style play can't find groups.

Equating my inability to make classic EXP groups with your inability to organize a mission run would be to say "I couldn't get the mission started because 99% of those who could go with me were already doing it."

[Ceinwyn]

You are aware that you are defending old EXP, right? Because you saying that is absurd in every conceivable way.


Why? Because u think, just because endgame is as time consuming as the old exp it has to be at the same level of entertainment or that endgame is more exciting than a valkurm dunes party? Sry for me it isn't.
I'm sorry but I can enjoy a decent valkurm dunes party more than a voidwach run as long as it is meaningful, these days it isn't because of abyssea.
However, most people who like the old FFXI won't post here because u need an actice account to do so and when mine is finished I won't look back again either, so nobody should be that suprised that there seems to be a majority on the side of the questionable actual playerbase, just as a kind of note for everyone here thinking he is he majority ~.~

[Caketime]

Arcon does not represent the opinions of the community at large. Hell, sometimes he completely abandons his own opinions out of convenience.

[vienne]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Money/Pix/pictures/2012/1/16/1326713800322/A-woman-doing-the-ironing-007.jpg

OMG thats me when i'm playing \o/ my bf loves ffxi cause i get all the ironing done

[Wystan]

When i first started playing xi the end-game sounded amazing. I was reading about cop and sky. That the fights were tactical and long not some mass zerg and tp spam fest. I started playing slowly leveling never got many parties as my tp feeding mnk was considered sub par. After a long time i made it to end game void watch boy was that a cluster f... If they could sort out tanking and aoe mass death tp, try and make the fights longer less insta death and more like the offline ff bosses i'd be a happy bunny.
Or a decent quest line that would of better prepared me for end-game. I was lucky i was in a good shell that didn't mind dragging me through content.

[Demon6324236]

Yes, and we all learned back in 1985 with Super Mario Bros. that we didn't need to repeatedly jump, evade, get fire flower, shoot fireballs for 85% of the game in order to find it fun and amusing. All we needed was 8 Bowsers to have a complete game. Gee, I wonder what developers were thinking??!Salvage pops you at the boss at the start right? Nyzul starts you at floor 100 staring down the boss too? Limbus lets you start fighting Arch-Ultima and Arch-Omega without doing the basement areas too, and lets not forget how Odin lets you jump right to him without bothering with the other areas of Einherjar. VW throws you right in Prov, Legion lets you start at Mul wave 3, don't make you fight the 'mini-bosses' or anything for progression either.

In case you misunderstand the point of this post, I am trying to say that we are not just jumping to bosses, there is a form of progression still. Legion and VW are the worst of examples, as everything is basically a mini-boss of sorts till the end, however Salvage, Nyzul, Limbus, they are all filled with lv99 normal progression mobs, Einherjar got a fail update in its amount of content, and only has level 75 trash mobs I think, but there is still a form of progression.

[Eyeballed]

Salvage pops you at the boss at the start right? Nyzul starts you at floor 100 staring down the boss too? Limbus lets you start fighting Arch-Ultima and Arch-Omega without doing the basement areas too, and lets not forget how Odin lets you jump right to him without bothering with the other areas of Einherjar. VW throws you right in Prov, Legion lets you start at Mul wave 3, don't make you fight the 'mini-bosses' or anything for progression either.

In case you misunderstand the point of this post, I am trying to say that we are not just jumping to bosses, there is a form of progression still. Legion and VW are the worst of examples, as everything is basically a mini-boss of sorts till the end, however Salvage, Nyzul, Limbus, they are all filled with lv99 normal progression mobs, Einherjar got a fail update in its amount of content, and only has level 75 trash mobs I think, but there is still a form of progression.

Okay, allow me to reiterate that statement: All we needed was stages 1-4, 2-4, 3-4, 4-4, 5-4, 6-4, 7-4 and 8-4. So instead of 32 stages, we get a mere 8. A bit closer, but still no cigar.

[Arcon]

Trust me, the feeling's mutual. And the whole point in having a debate/conversation is to gain understanding and unfortunately all I've gathered is exactly what you've said in that the grind is boring and therefore unnecessary. I'm sorry, "It's boring and I hate it because it's boring." will never be a good reason to not do anything.

Not to do what exactly? What is it you think I want? I wasn't giving reasons not to anything, or to do anything for that matter. People just like to read things into what I say, and all I'm saying is that the sole reason I dislike it is that it is boring.


Excuse me sir, what planet do you live on? Because it sure as hell isn't Earth.

Excuse me, Sir, read up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_games#Second_generation_MMORPGs) and shut up.


Yes, and we all learned back in 1985 with Super Mario Bros. that we didn't need to repeatedly jump, evade, get fire flower, shoot fireballs for 85% of the game in order to find it fun and amusing. All we needed was 8 Bowsers to have a complete game. Gee, I wonder what developers were thinking??!

Of course the boss battles are the most fun and engaging part of the game with their drops/rewards the sweetest of all, but you cannot make a game comprised of entirely that! If you DO, then you have NO REASON for an open world, and at the same time a game full of sidegrade/modest upgrade rewards because tossing out more difficult enemies for which to suffice their existence is not something developers just casually do! So instead of the old grind, what you now have is the new grind and a .001 chance of getting that next sidegrade piece of gear! What about this do you NOT understand?!!

You and I have one single disagreement, just one. We both think the journey is more important than the goal, because once you reach the goal, you're finished and can quit the game. The one thing that just doesn't seem to fit into your mithra head is that endgame is not the goal, it is the journey, and the goal doesn't exist. EXP is not the "jumping, evading, getting fire flowers and shooting fireballs", as you describe it. That is endgame. EXP is blowing the dust out of the cartridge because you can't get the game to start.

Not wanting EXP does not have anything even remotely to do with sidegrades and low drop rates. That's your newest excuse in a long line of absurdly flawed implications with little to no reason provided for why it would actually happen.


Why? Because u think, just because endgame is as time consuming as the old exp it has to be at the same level of entertainment or that endgame is more exciting than a valkurm dunes party? Sry for me it isn't.

I don't even know what the hell you're talking about, but what I was referring to was this:


Probably but endgame in FFXI is just too time consuming and not even that exciting.

You think endgame is time consuming. You think endgame is not exciting. Hence, you don't like endgame.
EXP is time consuming. EXP is not exciting. Yet, you like EXP?

You make no sense.


Okay, allow me to reiterate that statement: All we needed was stages 1-4, 2-4, 3-4, 4-4, 5-4, 6-4, 7-4 and 8-4. So instead of 32 stages, we get a mere 8. A bit closer, but still no cigar.

While I replied to that retarded metaphor earlier already, let me phrase it this way: Mario was fun, all the time. EXP is not, ever. Hence your analogy fails as bad as every other argument you ever tried to pull out of your ass.

[Eyeballed]

Not to do what exactly? What is it you think I want? I wasn't giving reasons not to anything, or to do anything for that matter. People just like to read things into what I say, and all I'm saying is that the sole reason I dislike it is that it is boring.

Because you find it boring does not, in any way, make it unnecessary. The grind will exist, because it has to, in some shape form or fashion if the MMO is to survive. Your way of thinking will destroy the open world, lock everything in an instance, stagnate the community and wither away most of what real adventure is left in these games today.

You're not going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change yours.

[FrankReynolds]

Equating my inability to make classic EXP groups with your inability to organize a mission run would be to say "I couldn't get the mission started because 99% of those who could go with me were already doing it."

Ummm no. You implied that you were far better than me at forming groups. Although you have yet to disclose exactly what it is that you would have done that would have caused people to join your group. I suspect that is because there is nothing you could have done.

My point was that a person who is super awesome at forming groups shouldn't be on a forum complaining about how hard it is to form groups. You have two options here.

A) you are in fact shitty at forming groups and that is why you cannot complete any of the old school content that you want to do so badly.

or

B) you can't find people to do the content no matter how good you are at organizing groups because there are in fact no peoplle who need / want to do that content.

In case "A" there is no point in changing the game just because you suck at forming groups. In case "B" there is no point in changing the game because no one wants it changed. Take your pick. Do you want to be the guy who sucks at forming groups but loves to tell everyone how awesome he is at it? Or do you want to be the guy who tries to force people to play with him? Personally I think that you are both guys.

[Demon6324236]

The grind will existIt still does, people simply seem to prefer a grind for gear rather than a grind for experience points.

[Arcon]

Because you find it boring does not, in any way, make it unnecessary. The grind will exist, because it has to, in some shape form or fashion if the MMO is to survive. Your way of thinking will destroy the open world, lock everything in an instance, stagnate the community and wither away most of what real adventure is left in these games today.

Wrong, because you still think I mind grinds. I don't. I said so several times in this very thread. I liked old Dynamis. I like Salvage. I don't like VW. I like Legion. I don't like new Dynamis. All of them are grinds. Some I like, others I dislike, that's because the grind itself is not involved in that decision.

If you were insane and went back a year to look at the posts about Abyssea, you will see that I argued against it a lot, partly because it removed part of the grind. I made the exact same argument as you, because you're right: a certain balance of grind and reward is required, it cannot be all reward without hurting the game.

But that has nothing at all to do with EXP. EXP is entirely needless in this game. It's not required in any way, shape or form. It's not the only grind, pretty much every single thing in this game is a grind. Empyreans are a grind, relics are a grind, mythics are a grind, Dynamis AF2+2 are a grind, even more so the augmented versions, new Salvage and old Salvage are both still grinds, Voidwatch is a nearly unlimited grind. The game is full of them, you can't look anywhere without finding grinds. Losing EXP will do nothing to remove that aspect of the game at all.

[Semsenorie]

Directx 11, frame less window mode and an option to turn off help bar for those of us who may not want it on would be nice.

[Prrsha]

The reason why it's so hard to get members in the first place is because the people that actually have CoP done doesn't dare do them again because they don't want to farm the items needed just to simply help out (this is why SE eventually allowed Anima and other "boss rape" items to be buyable on the AH). I can't blame them either. Who wants to waste their time getting items and a proper job and proper equipment(pre-level sync) for someone else, when your chances of success aren't guaranteed?

After SE made the above changes (minus the removal of the level cap), CoP as very much doable. In the beginning, when the content came out, I'd agree with you, however. The level cap removal was an overkill, however I am in no way stating that players who wish to do it without a level cap on, be forced to have one on. No, I am asking for an option to do it WITH the cap while still allowing other players who wish to breeze through it choose not to. Maybe a nice token of some worth of doing it the without a level cap should given so players who which to go "above any beyond" the current difficultly can be rewarded for doing so.

That way CoP is no longer a barrier to those who wish to finish it to get to higher content quickly, but still be there for those who wish to replay it (or try it for the first time) the way the developers intended. Like I said, it wouldn't be too hard to code.

[Prrsha]

I determined a while back that thats basically the case with everyone on the same side of this as Eye.

Why? I want cake for both sides. I side with Eye on many issues but also see that people don't think the same way I or she does. I want an option for both sides and I believe there is room for both playstyles. Does anyone comment on a new interface to finding party members? No. They just sit and complain about the "old days" where finding one was "impossible". Well if it was impossible, make it possible with comments that can FIX the problem instead of posting like bitter old men.

A problem right now is that people are digging in ditches and sitting on sides, not seeing that there is room for compromise. What follows is a civil war war on the forums, dividing the playerbase and forcing a "my way or the highway" mentality that is spreading like poison throughout the community.

What I see mostly here are suggestions made... and instead of a simple agree or disagree post, I see flames coming out of every orifice. I also see posts by a small group of members (that I can count on my hands) that outright intimidate players of opposing view points to post at all. This goes for both sides. I bet you that 100 people read these posts but don't make a single post because they fear to get their heads blown up at the simple fact of poking their heads up and posting. All they say is that this thread is a cluster**** Enough already.

[Prrsha]

Directx 11, frame less window mode and an option to turn off help bar for those of us who may not want it on would be nice.

I agree, as it was most people didn't know how to turn off the ? icon next to their name without a lengthly discussion with them. Some form of tutorial (offline) should be added as well, to teach new players the battle dynamics and how to look for a party etc. (that can be flagged off easily as well).

A new player shouldn't have to find a vet player to learn the game's basic features. When I got the game back in 2004. I got a nice large manual. Now that is downloadable, one is needed.

[Prrsha]

It still does, people simply seem to prefer a grind for gear rather than a grind for experience points.

Well said. I think the matter at hand is to examine why. Both are progress, both make you more powerful. I think herein lies the answer. The gap. The inability of lower level players able to play with higher ones. Why? Level synch is still there... I think the problem is inherent in the system that enables you to group up with others. I really hope SE sees that the game needs a massive overhaul to its user interface. There should be little to no work in finding a party. It's a simple as that. The clunky old LFP system was a MAJOR complaint the entire length of the of the lifetime of this game and it has not been addressed. The only thing that was added was a little hard to find "comment" area to a player's name on the server list.

What the game needs is an overhauled GUI (like I said many times before) that makes it as easy as point and click, to find players to do the SAME quest with or level with. This feature should not be an inactive/active one but ALWAYS active. A player should always see 24/7 a list of quests I am on (and I am flagging that I need help with). It should always be active and not have to be reset when I log back on. It would allow players to click on their quest they are on, click on "Look for members needing help" and POOF. A list of players should appear. They should be able to click on a player and engage in a /tell. There should also be an option to go /anon so one is not spammed if they are doing something important that needs concentration.

Why oh why was this not added YEARS ago is beyond me. Instead of fixing the problem, they decide that exp is broken and they eliminate the exp ladder (and group events for lower level players... and a vast amount of content) almost altogether. This was the #1 reason why people left the game, it was the #1 reason why people complain about "leveling in the old days". This is why to some, gaining exp was fun, to others a big hassle. I never had problems finding a party, I made one. Maybe this is one reason why I found those good ol' days fun and not others?

[Eyeballed]

Email me!

Prrsha? You going to respond to my email? :o

[bungiefanNA]

The LFP system is the way it is for ease of use with a controller, since it was made to be a console MMO. The console having limited memory leads to limits on what info can be stored for flagging which quests you want help on. If the game was PC-only then it would probably be doable, but with consoles in the mix, it's not. Maybe the LSC could allow for that sort of communication...

[Arcon]

All of that information can be stored server-side, so none of that is an issue.

[Rustic]

First of all, I never said any of that applied to me, and it doesn't. If I didn't have anything left to experience in this game, I'd quit. Second, every item you mentioned except for EXP I love and I would do again, and I help everyone out with. You are completely off base listing all of that, because none of it I have a problem with, and none of it I want to keep from others (again, EXP being the sole exception).

And even back when I never did any of it at all, I still hated EXP. I already said a few posts ago, there is only one thing I dislike about EXP. I can deal with grinds. I can deal with time sinks. I can deal with slow (or even no) rewards. The only thing I cannot deal with is boredom, and that's what defines EXP to me. You're trying to make it out to be a lot more than it is.

And in that regard, I'm in the middle. I think oldschool exp rates were mind-numbing. I think Abyssea exp rates are overdone. But I also think that without people having reasons to go out there, you don't have people even thinking about those zones. I don't think we need people going to the same zone for a month straight grinding away in Garbage Sit-adel slapping bats and beetles around- but they should have a reason to go there for a level or two, for a day or two. Not because of some masochistic need for people to grind, but so people actually experience the zone and a feeling of progress that isn't "blink and it's gone".



Aside from crafting, it very much is.

And heck, crafting is more of a 100% game in the sense that it takes people all over the game world, from the basics in Zerhun/Saruta/Ronfaure as newbie crafters all the way out to the guy smacking around an HNM and hoping for a crafting drop. Endgame is -not-. Endgame is "doing what's at the end", and it focuses around the stuff that gives you the top-end gear in a limited number of areas at the top levels the game allows. You want the endgame to be a "100% game", start putting endgame HNM's in 100% (or near to it) of the game zones- just not all at once. Kill one? Another one spawns somewhere else. Maybe your alliance takes down an HNM Antican in Quicksand Caves. A Giga Behemoth pops up in Qufim. He dies. Deep in the Outer Horutoto Ruins, a Wild Cardian appears. It goes down. Castle Zvahl gets a new Demon King. Blam. A Gold Hydra in Mamook. Boom. A Great Tauri in the Aqueducts. Bang. A Fomor in Arrapago Reef. Biff. A Golem in Ro'Maeve. They don't have to have a huge unique loot table (indeed, quite the opposite) - but let them have drops that relate to the area they spawn in. Random AF2 pieces and some ancient currency in one case. Some Salvage armors and alexandrite in another. A mixed bag of AF3 seals for a third. Crafting materials. That sorta thing. Things relevant to the care and feeding of L99 players, in other words.

[Prrsha]

And in that regard, I'm in the middle. I think oldschool exp rates were mind-numbing. I think Abyssea exp rates are overdone. But I also think that without people having reasons to go out there, you don't have people even thinking about those zones. I don't think we need people going to the same zone for a month straight grinding away in Garbage Sit-adel slapping bats and beetles around- but they should have a reason to go there for a level or two, for a day or two. Not because of some masochistic need for people to grind, but so people actually experience the zone and a feeling of progress that isn't "blink and it's gone".




And heck, crafting is more of a 100% game in the sense that it takes people all over the game world, from the basics in Zerhun/Saruta/Ronfaure as newbie crafters all the way out to the guy smacking around an HNM and hoping for a crafting drop. Endgame is -not-. Endgame is "doing what's at the end", and it focuses around the stuff that gives you the top-end gear in a limited number of areas at the top levels the game allows. You want the endgame to be a "100% game", start putting endgame HNM's in 100% (or near to it) of the game zones- just not all at once. Kill one? Another one spawns somewhere else. Maybe your alliance takes down an HNM Antican in Quicksand Caves. A Giga Behemoth pops up in Qufim. He dies. Deep in the Outer Horutoto Ruins, a Wild Cardian appears. It goes down. Castle Zvahl gets a new Demon King. Blam. A Gold Hydra in Mamook. Boom. A Great Tauri in the Aqueducts. Bang. A Fomor in Arrapago Reef. Biff. A Golem in Ro'Maeve. They don't have to have a huge unique loot table (indeed, quite the opposite) - but let them have drops that relate to the area they spawn in. Random AF2 pieces and some ancient currency in one case. Some Salvage armors and alexandrite in another. A mixed bag of AF3 seals for a third. Crafting materials. That sorta thing. Things relevant to the care and feeding of L99 players, in other words.

Well said.


All of that information can be stored server-side, so none of that is an issue.

Correct as well. Heck FFXIAH can bring up a great deal of information and it hardly needs full access to the servers. It's just laziness on the SE's part (or overlooked) for some reason. Not only would this new interface help with leveling/exp but with endgame events (gear gathering) as well. You could even add a "synth request" option.

[Prrsha]

Prrsha? You going to respond to my email? :o

Sorry for the delay, reply sent! :3

[Camate]

Greetings,

I’d like to share a follow-up post from Producer Akihiko Matsui in regards to Perfect Defense/Embrava adjustments as well as content adjustments.




Hello,

Thank you for all of the feedback since the version update regarding Legion, Neo-Nyzul, the Salvage expansion, and Meeble Burrows.


Regarding the 600 skill cap mentioned in the explanation for the adjustments to Perfect Defense
I’d like to apologize that this was conveyed as if it was going to be immediately possible to reach 600 and it also was received like the development team did not understand the current situation. Also, I apologize that this was not followed-up on sooner.

I believe that in future posts there will be cases that we give similar explanations, and we would appreciate it greatly if you could take these to mean that “while it is currently not possible to do this, there is a possibility for growth in the future.”

It’s extremely difficult to have everyone come to the same understanding on the first try no matter how we convey or write it, so we would like to respond to this kind of posts in a shorter time frame by rephrasing the content or through other techniques in order to improve communication.


Embrava stats
I’ve been hearing that the reason for changing the regain effect to refresh was to turn it into a spell that would give a beneficial effect to not only the frontline jobs, but to backline jobs as well.

I’ve been looking over all of the adjustment suggestions that you all have submitted and discussed it with the job lead as well as the content leads, but this is something that needs to be done at this specific time, so we will be proceeding with the original adjustment plan.


Content adjustment
While I won’t be getting into the specifics about which aspects and such, I have been speaking the development team members about adjustments and re-adjustments for Neo-Nyzul, Legion, Odin, and Voidwatch (up to Provenance watcher) based on the adjustments to Perfect Defense and Embrava.
(Based on the above adjustments, if adjustments to the Salvage expansion are necessary we will look into that as well.)

However, in regards to Arch Dynamis Lord, since this is a monster that drops materials for upgrading relics, we plan on maintaining the current conditions.

Additionally, for Meeble Burrows, with the version update that is scheduled for the beginning of the year, the effect of Embrava will be made to reflect the adjustments similar to the Salvage expansion when we implement the new expeditions.


We will be working hard on development so that Seekers of Adoulin is enjoyable and also to reflect the need and importance of the above adjustments. Thank you very much.

[Ophannus]

Fine, keep the nerfed Embrava regain intact but to give us a bone, make Tabula Rasa enhance the potency of Adoloquiem. First make Adoloquiem give a base of 2TP/tick but shorten the duration slightly. Secondly make Adoloquiem under the effect of Tabula Rasa give 3-4TP/tick similar to how Tabula Rasa enhances "Regen" spells. This would be a decent compromise as Adoloquiem is limited to 'party only' unlike Embrava which can be cast on anyone, secondly the effect is weaker than Embrava's 6/tick regain at max skill.

[Alhanelem]

“while it is currently not possible to do this, there is a possibility for growth in the future.”this statement would be fine had there not been previous cases *cough* enhancing pet treasure hunter *cough* where this statement was implied but was later followed up with "we didn't say anything about doing this / we didn't promise this" basically shooting down the idea people had in imagining a "possibility for growth in the future."


However, in regards to Arch Dynamis Lord, since this is a monster that drops materials for upgrading relics, we plan on maintaining the current conditions. more like "However, since ADL already depends on chance even with embrava/perfect defense, we will not nerf ADL despite nerfing the abilities that make him reasonably beatable."

[Yrusama]

I guess I was wrong. Matsui is doing all he can, just like Yoshida. I really hope they both have time for a break once in a while. They should go on a Producer's vacation! *pictures them drinking sake and complaining about the whiny players*

[Sunrider]

Bumping to remind the producer the collective hatred the RDM community has for the revised, enfeebling-based 1-hout SP. Everyone liked the Encomium concept better, please enhance and implement it.



No, I don't care about anyone tired of hearing about it, awful ideas shouldn't be allowed to slip through the cracks.

[Rubicant82]

Embrava stats
I’ve been hearing that the reason for changing the regain effect to refresh was to turn it into a spell that would give a beneficial effect to not only the frontline jobs, but to backline jobs as well.

I’ve been looking over all of the adjustment suggestions that you all have submitted and discussed it with the job lead as well as the content leads, but this is something that needs to be done at this specific time, so we will be proceeding with the original adjustment plan.

まずい考え

Back line jobs have PLENTY of support. This is nothing more then a "I'm sorry we gave you something too nice, we are taking it back." I'm sorry but that is how most players see it. The corporation has let down to many people with this game and honestly the more you change it the worse off it gets in most cases.

[Prrsha]

...honestly the more you change it the worse off it gets in most cases.

If the game never changed, you'd have more Tanaka drop rates. At least the new dev believes in point based system to obtain loot.

Embrava shouldn't have been implemented the way it was in the first point. If it wasn't added, people wouldn't be complaining now because there would be nothing to complain about. In addition, content shouldn't have been tailored to be zerged as well (and as a result embrava was needed to do so). I think the changes are being done one at a time to get away from "zerging" and replace it with a new method of boss fights. Rome wasn't built in a day and I doubt zerging will go away anytime soon. It started with DRK zergs back before the level 75 cap was raised. After that you had a haste nerf. People complained as well then but they managed to adapt.

The problem that differs from the DRK zerg and the current zerging, is the content that has been added that just begs to be done that way. I really really hope Matsui-san takes a good look at how the boss content was designed in his absence and sees it needs major revisions. What seemed like a good idea on paper for a boss for level 75, doesn't work well at 99. When you pass 75, certain flaws in the entire battle system become evident. The small imbalance gaps of the 75 era turn into giant rifts at 99. I really don't think the devs back then really saw what was coming when they removed the level 75 cap and how the math works when you apply it now. It was as if they never planned to ever lift the cap.

What needs done now, is an entire re-work of the battle system from the ground up. Haste needs reworking... enfeebling... subjob combos... and TP gain. Also defense values and DPS. All of this should be fixed before even considering adding new jobs. If 75% of your jobs aren't really needed, why add more? Shouldn't you retool the existing content first before adding say... "play as a monster" to the mix?

I fear it is out of Matsui-san's hands right now. SE has set a release date and I bet his higher-ups are breathing down his neck. I don't envy his job... it must be as hectic as hell. I hope everything can be balanced before the expansion release because the expansion will need constant attention as more and more content is added on. If SE wishes to keep their gold mine going, I hope they devote more staff to FFXI so both can be worked on at once.

I have faith that Matsui-san can set things right (he did design the battle system of the game after all). I just worry on how long it will take with so many issues at once. Here's hoping to a good new year for FFXI! :3

[FrankReynolds]

If the game never changed, you'd have more Tanaka drop rates.

Complaining that they often change the game in ways that contradict the written expressed requests of the players is in no way the same as saying that they shouldn't change the game at all.

These guys consistently ask us what we think they should do and then do the opposite.

[Tennotsukai]

I really don't mind the issue with the Embrava nerf, however I do believe NNI and certain other events that require same will be much more difficult near improbable to complete post-nerf. Embrava, post-nerf, is still a really good 1hr as some other 1hrs really are not all that great....DRG.

[Taint2]

I really don't mind the issue with the Embrava nerf, however I do believe NNI and certain other events that require same will be much more difficult near improbable to complete post-nerf. Embrava, post-nerf, is still a really good 1hr as some other 1hrs really are not all that great....DRG.



With the larger floor jumps and faster lamps you don't even need embrava currently to clear 100. And if for some reason you do, you should just spam floor 80.

[Rubicant82]

I understand that NO CHANGE is bad, however any GOOD company will LISTEN to their CUSTOMERS when it comes to changes. No one really WANTS the embrava nerf, it is something that SE has decided to do because they gave us something we can use to subvert the time sink that is part of this game (NNI, ADL, etc) but what they (SE) fails to realize is that we the CUSTOMERS who PAY FOR THE GAME every month should have more of a say in what is changed. It is dishonorable and sad that they are changing something that benefits the player. more REFRESH does not BENEFIT anyone.
so in short I say this: これらの変更は、不名誉をもたらす

[Arcon]

No one really WANTS the embrava nerf [..]

I want it, so your argument is invalid.

Although the rest of what you said wasn't much smarter. Customers are retards, most of the time they don't know what they want. It's perfectly fine to completely ignore the customer base if they know what they're doing. They made a great game and kept it up for years without any significant customer input, and many other FF games did the same. Sadly they don't seem to keep up with the times well and most of what they produce is garbage now. Although if they listened to even half of the bullshit people suggest on here and implemented it today, the game would be one big piece of junk and no one would be playing it anymore by next month.

[Camiie]

I want it, so your argument is invalid.

Although the rest of what you said wasn't much smarter. Customers are retards, most of the time they don't know what they want.

You're a customer too, you know. Are you somehow superior to the rest of us, or should I consider the rest of your post null and void because you are a retard yourself? If customers are retards and you are a customer then you are a retard after all.


It's perfectly fine to completely ignore the customer base if they know what they're doing. They made a great game and kept it up for years without any significant customer input, and many other FF games did the same. Sadly they don't seem to keep up with the times well and most of what they produce is garbage now. Although if they listened to even half of the bullshit people suggest on here and implemented it today, the game would be one big piece of junk and no one would be playing it anymore by next month.

Your basis for this reasoning?

[Caketime]

Hurrdurr I liek swords! http://imgur.com/fqcRh.gif

[Arcon]

You're a customer too, you know. Are you somehow superior to the rest of us, or should I consider the rest of your post null and void because you are a retard yourself?

I am a customer, not the customers. Masses and individuals are different. And yes, I am superior to the customers, as are many other customers. And no, even if I wasn't it wouldn't make my post any less valid. Tastes and reasoning are different, you can be the smartest person in the world and still have a taste that goes against what the majority wants.

To stay on topic with an example, Embrava was horrible. Not only should they have nerfed it, they should have never released it in the first place. It's an embarrassment that it took them this long to adjust it, same as the Ukon nerf. If you like it or not does not matter at all, it's bad game design. It's one of the reasons for the zerg mentality, which was what many people complained about (ironically many of the same people who are against the nerf). The content is what needs adjusting, not releasing abilities that destroy strategic gameplay. But many people don't know that and are just sad that their job of choice doesn't have a weapon of mass destruction anymore. They want it back, regardless of how it would affect the game. Hence, a stupid choice. The same goes for quite a few other unpopular choices (Blinkers nerf comes to mind), choices that have to be made regardless of what customers want. Because customers are retards.

[FrankReynolds]

I want it, so your argument is invalid.

Although the rest of what you said wasn't much smarter. Customers are retards, most of the time they don't know what they want. It's perfectly fine to completely ignore the customer base if they know what they're doing. They made a great game and kept it up for years without any significant customer input, and many other FF games did the same. Sadly they don't seem to keep up with the times well and most of what they produce is garbage now. Although if they listened to even half of the bullshit people suggest on here and implemented it today, the game would be one big piece of junk and no one would be playing it anymore by next month.

You realize that they are asking for opinions and then ignoring them right? It's fine to do something anywhere in life (not just in games) without asking what other people think about it. But, implying that you want to do things that will make someone happy and then consistently doing things to piss them off instead is a straight up dick move.

<SE>"Hey kids. What kind of ice cream do you like? Vanilla or Chocolate?"

<KIDS> "We like Vanilla. We're allergic to Chocolate."

<SE> "Oh... Well then here's a big heaping bowl of chocolate ice cream. Let us know what you think."

<KIDS> "We told you we are allergic. WTF?!?!"

<SE> "We think you will like chocolate. Feel free to post here and tell us what you think."

<KIDS> "We hate this crap! WTF is wrong with you people? Get us some Vanilla GDI!"

<SE> "We are considering getting some Vanilla for you. Just wait a while. In the mean time feel free to tell us what you think."

<KIDS> "We think that you are insane. Why do you hate us?"

1 year later...

<SE> "Hey guys, good news! We got you a teaspoon of vanilla to share. Guys... Guys... Where is everyone?..."

[Arcon]

You realize that they are asking for opinions and then ignoring them right?

I do, and it's embarrassing. They've proven to be completely inept at customer interaction on almost every level. I've thought to myself a few times they may have actually been better off without these forums, simply to not disappoint even outside of game content.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Remember, kids: this is only the beta of the Final Fantasy XI forums! All real feedback should be sent through the Contact Form through the Square-Enix Support Center website until the final version of the forums is released!

Have a nice day!

[Lienn]

You realize that they are asking for opinions and then ignoring them right? (...)

Priceless post! ^^ So true! I also felt this way regarding some (most) FFXIV battle changes...funny enough they were also led by Matsui there.

[Rubicant82]

You realize that they are asking for opinions and then ignoring them right?
This is not true... they respond to the Japanese feed back all the time.
Oh ... right ... we are the English forum... so I'm just going to sit back and watch as one forum audience (Give you a hit it is not the English or the EU!) gets preferential treatment over the rest of us, and the game goes down the crapper like FFXIV.

[Camiie]

<SE> "We are considering getting some Vanilla for you. Just wait a while. In the mean time feel free to tell us what you think."

<KIDS> "We think that you are insane. Why do you hate us?"

1 year later...

<SE> "Hey guys, good news! We got you a teaspoon of vanilla to share. Guys... Guys... Where is everyone?..."

I think it'd be more like:

<KIDS> "So about that vanilla you promised us..."

<SE> "We never actually promised you any vanilla."