Jobs that need to be fix ASAP.

[Deathrose]

Dev team there are jobs in this game that need some immediate attention. I initially made this link for the dancer job, there are others that need a fix up too(blu heres to you), but imma focus on my primary job the dancer. Admittedly this job lags so far behind the others in terms of performance whether it is dmg, curing, or enfeebling. It really infuriates me when ppl talk about this job being a waste of a spot, this that and the other of how its a meh job. Some of us, like me, put our all in this and love it dearly, but it is extremely insulting when ppl criticize my work and tell me im wasting my time on it. The truth of the matter is deep down I can see what they are saying, but this job has emmense potential but for some reason Dev team fears giving it any meaningful abilities that will make it stand out. Our healing is pointless when it come to higher dmg dealing mobs, Our dmg is pathetic for the most part on higher level mobs versus other jobs including nin, and our buffs/debuffs(debufs especially) are mediocure at best. Those steps dont give dnc any sort of leverage over anything at this point, soloing for the most part is pointless due to all the new tp moves mobs are getting. I am begging you Dev team fix this issue Through a major buff of our abilities as a main job be it a major step potency increase, dmg increase, healing, or hell seeing how far it lags behind the others, an across the board buff but would be MUCH appreciate it. You have to understand im sure im not the only one here who wants this job to flourish(no pun intended). All those who feel the same please comment. I would love so much for people to stop criticizing our hard work and for it to be appreciated for those who take the time to gear it to its lofty heights. Thank you in advance everyone.

[Zagen]

DNC needs fixing? Are you sure you're playing the job correctly?

[Deathrose]

lol im very good at this job actually, one of the best thank you, but uh.... It drasticly lacks in performance in regards to end-game content. Its just not desired at all and is seen as a waste of a slot. I seek to change this out-look of people and finally set dancer in the spot light with some of its most unique abilities boosted to more adequet levels, as to where they make more a diffrence in alliance settings. Just as an example, raising box to 18%(i suggested 20) i guess would be a start, not much but a start. Sambas lack to be honest with all the other haste objects. Drain has been a joke and still is a joke and needs a boost to be viable. Soloing is next to pointless now due to the fact that even bst can do better in dyna than we can, abyssea is all but dead and pointless now, and anything else that dancer may be a option for, the rewards are minimal to say the least. Dancer has many neat abilities that just are just not good enough to be wanted in any end-game content via a dancer main. Also like I said in my above post the dmg could use a change but you know for the most part im not too concernd on it seeing as I dont expect them to hit like war mnks and the sort cause that not how the game is set up. I do, however, want the job to finally come out of every other jobs shadow and get to do the part that Dev has neglected to build for sometime now which is team work with a party. Dancer can be a wonderful asset to end-game content if tweaked more.


P.S= People have been commenting on a change to the JA delay times. This also would help dnc since it suffes baddly in regards to dps cause of this.

[RAIST]

DNC needs fixing? Are you sure you're playing the job correctly?

I'm guessing there is some room for individual improvement, be that gear selection or playing style/strategies....especially after reading the bit about soloing being pointless. Just thumb through all the DNC solo strategies on the wiki's and you'll see what I mean.

Hell, even just /DNC makes some jobs near invincible in a LOT of situations. That alone actually made me think about taking it past 51 at one point, just to see what it was capable of as a main. Only reason I didn't was I kinda got burnt out after getting 10 jobs to 99 as is.

[Zagen]

lol im very good at this job actually, one of the best thank you, but uh.... It drasticly lacks in performance in regards to end-game content.

You mean like Legion?
DNC, BLU, PUP, MNK, NIN, RDM, BST are all pretty useless there.

VW?
DNC, SCH, RDM, PUP, BST, NIN, BLU are all usually shunned. BLU not as much.

NNI?
If it isn't DRK, WAR, SAM, SCH good luck proving your worth on another job. Even after the changes most jobs will still be shunned due to the high luck factor of the event.

I'm sure I missed some jobs but you get the point... You're not the only job that doesn't fit in endgame and guess what that's always been how endgame worked some jobs just don't cut it.

[Deathrose]

I do realize that thats how it has been but I just see a lot that this job can do in regards to being beneficial to end-game such as legion and such. I guess im not a fan of the brunt of end-game being focalized around a couple jobs. Not everyone enjoys the jobs enough to gear them and spend the time it takes to prepare them for such events like their other jobs. Yes, I do happen to like the idea of DRK but for the most part the portion i like, the absorb spells, I dont see used much. Its all about auto atk and ws with a toss in of JA to keep haste and +atk every now and then, and even DRK can lack if not gear properly. My point is, Id like for more of those said useless jobs to shine in end-game events if geard right and the person playing is skilled enough to do them.

PS= In regards to NNI- Im 15/15 and got it all on dnc. in fact.... it was sch sch nin dnc mnk war that did it, but then again i dont count NNI as an end-game event.

[Luvbunny]

Perhaps it would help to list the endgame events you feel dancer could use some boost, and what kind of boost. This way it is pretty clear why you feel dancer is not as useful for these events and what other ways it can be improved and why.

[Antanias]

In b4 ppl come in and say RDM >_>

[Mayoyama]

WALL OF TEXT

I mean no offense, but paragraphs and spacing your posts out better would make them much easier to read. Nothing worse than going crosseyed trying to read a huge blob of txt, no matter how interested you are in the topic

[Kincard]

Yeah, scanning the OP I probably would agree with the general thrust of what he's saying, but I'll be damned if I'm actually going to bother reading that disaster.

[Demon6324236]

Hey guys RDM needs
In b4 ppl come in and say RDM >_>...oh, nvm, carry on.

[Afania]

Let's face it, no way jobs can be "fixed" in this game ;) There are always jobs fit in optimal setup in more events, and jobs fit in less events ;)

OP do you play DNC for recognization or play DNC cuz you love DNC?

Also if you spent a lot of effort and time to gear up a job that isn't used often, why care about what others said? I'm going to argue that any gil spent on any weapon that's not bandwagonark are a waste of money, and yet 1000x ppl still builds apoc, Masa99, Amano, daggers etc.

So why care about what others said? You still play DNC in meebles(which even with empy 99, I still don't get to choose what job to play as, ironically) and lower tier VW, even prov a couple of times, isn't that enough? If you want recognization of your work, then the harsh reality is that in FFXI ppl would "look down" on any job/weapon that's not current bandwagon, much like rl reaction. If you're a MNK or SAM main, fat chances are you're still gonna get look down upon when Bandwagonark parsed higher. And a few years ago bandwagonark was the lolrelic. THF is a bit more useful than DNC as dagger job, and I'm still going to argue that building mandau 99 is a waste of money when it can go to other relic. And yet most THF mains with Mandau 99 don't QQ about "My job is useless, I just wasted money on my weapon".

If you want recognization, play bandwagonark job. If you want to play loved job, then deal with no recognization if it's not bandwagon job. Same thing apply irl too, out of 100000 jobs irl, only a few wins respect, FFXI isn't much different IMO.

[Elphy]

The reason dnc is disregarded alot of times in content that doesnt require proc jobs is because there are so many ppl who have played the job in the past, and still currently do, horribly. They do not know how to gear or use their job abilities or what to macro in for ws or ja so the dnc falls behind. But its fairly good if played right and can not only deal out decent damage but can also survive. I was taking down mobs a hell of alot faster soloing dnc than the bsts I was competing with in dyna a few days ago. Its all about gear and ja utilization.

Its kindda like sch. Ppl use it now for embrava sure but it was laughed at for ages due to ppl not knowing how to use stratagems, weathers and the like. Still beyond embrava ppl wont take it for the same reason. It was much easier to heal in an old school pt with sch than with rdm or whm. With sublimation, weather and the ability to aoe regen, stoneskin and the like plus boost cures via aurorastorm and stratagems it made sch pretty bad ass. Not to mention the ability to nuke if needed or if there wasnt much healing to be done. But so many ppl played sch like whm and didnt utilize thier job abilities or gear to its fullest potential and the job was scoffed at.

Its not really a design flaw in some jobs cases, its just a lack of understanding on how to play that job in general that makes it worthless.

And the only problem with rdm is that its all about the zerg these days. Rdm was great pre-aby due to its survivabilty based on strategic play. You take strategy away and replace it with just the need to deal tremendous damage super fast and to hell with anything else, that is the reason rdm is neglected and disregarded.

[Sarick]

Most of these weaker jobs can be boosted for party/alliances simply by making them stronger based on the number of people in the party/alliance. I explained why RDM is so brutally limited. SE doesn't like people soloing with it The ability of a RDM is their tactics to do a little bit of everything. If there was something that boosted the RDM's power based on the number of alliance/party members without reducing it's current capabilities low man/solo wouldn't be a fark'en issue.

To much pride exist to try implementing something like this.

The same could be done for dancer, instead of tactics their performance is increased by the (audience) IE more people abilities etc have reduced cost/durations.

Keeping jobs balanced and in check fr solo/low man aren't available ATM. These jobs are the same basic utility solo as they are in a full alliance. In an alliance they aren't very useful and rather weak. In a solo setting they can do impressive things so the developers are scared to boost them more. If they where boosted based on the party/alliance it would improve utility but not make them overpowered solo.

I just don't see why this aspect hasn't been created yet. Developers must not understand the ingenious opportunities here for improved balance in a party/alliance. :confused:

[Mirage]

Let sambas be alliance-wide effects, and let several sambas from different dancers stack.

Make a healing waltz 2 that cures 2 status ailments, and a healing waltzga. Put HW1, 2 and -ga on a separate timer, not shared with the curing waltzes.

Decrease after-JA delay to 1 second instead of 2, make it possible to do multiple JAs in a row with only 0.5 second in between them instead of the current 1 second.

[Lyberty]

We all want the job we love to be the best, but it doesnt really work like this and the sooner we realize it, its easier to live with it... All you have to do is to play the job you love when you get the chance... I love COR and RNG but do I get the chance to play with them everytime I want? Ofc not... Thats just the way things are in this game, so relax and enjoy your favorite jobs when you can. :)

[Mirage]

Speak for yourself. I recognize overpowered things even in the jobs I like. I also recognize weak jobs even if I don't play them.

[Sarick]

We all want the job we love to be the best, but it doesnt really work like this and the sooner we realize it, its easier to live with it... All you have to do is to play the job you love when you get the chance... I love COR and RNG but do I get the chance to play with them everytime I want? Ofc not... Thats just the way things are in this game, so relax and enjoy your favorite jobs when you can. :)

If a job is exploited or required it can be considered to strong. If a job is ignored or left out it can be considered too weak. By telling people "All you have to do is to play the job you love when you get the chance." you're in essence putting a table cloth on top of a huge scratch. This doesn't make the scratch go away it's still under the table cloth.

I don't take kindly to people telling me tough luck deal with it when a few simple changes could bring happiness to more people. Also, I pity you because you're happy trying to desensitize others who recognize balance problems. Under this logic we'd still be stuck at the level 75 cap with only 18 jobs. I think people who are creative should be the ones that should be speaking up not the people who would blindly accept anything they're given and accept it.

[saevel]

Right now, top three jobs that need "fixed"?

RDM
PLD
SMN / PUP / BST (pet jobs in general)

SMN is used for two things, PD and Shock Squall, but more then anything it's PD. PUP and BST are generally ignored with legions of gimp a$$ BST/DNC's running around Dyna.

THF and DNC come along well after those three, hell NIN probably comes before those two. And BLU doesn't need a damn thing done to it, just have SE leave it the hell alone and not break anything would be good enough. It's one of the most powerful jobs in the game, it's only limit being that it doesn't perform well in super buffed zergs which is something all 1H melee suffer from.

[SpankWustler]

There's some stuff that looks like ricotta cheese suspended in marinara sauce dribbling out of my right ear after making the topic post make grammatical sense in my head. I agree with the general idea, though.

Dancer's Sambas and Waltzes were really great back when lots of activities involved parties of six mostly melee engaging the same enemy and mages often being pressed for MP. If Dancer had the relative weapon and equipment selection at 75 that it has 99, it would have been a beast in that atmosphere.

Now, fights are either an alliance affair or people are split into groups much smaller than six. Issues with healing have nothing to do with MP, instead applying forms of pressure Dancer can not help relieve in a significant way, such as huge numbers of status ailments or epic damage to the groin-region with a chance of horrible seeping death as an additional effect. This marginalizes Sambas and Waltzes in turn.

Like Ranger before Legion, this leaves Dancer as a quirky job that can deal sufficient damage without any events that need its particular quirk. I don't see stuff going back to "TAKE EXACTLY SIX REAL PEOPLE, ALL MELEE AMONG THOSE SIX HIT THE SAME THING, LIKE IT", so it would be nice if Dancer's abilities were tweaked for alliance use.

The easiest way to do that would be to just make Sambas affect everyone who engaged a monster, and to increase the potency of steps being that they're directly on the monster. This would also make Dancer lean more towards a support role and less towards the "Monk of the Order of Pointy Poking" role which is currently ideal for the job.

[Mirage]

Oh yeah, if there's any job that should have resist paralyze, it's DNC.

In fact, it should get resist amnesia too.

I mean think about it. Paralyze isn't a very big problem for mages, as they can spam paralyna very fast. DNC however, can only use healing waltz once every 15 seconds, and even if your attempt to use Healing Waltz doesn't get eaten by paralyze, it might still cure a different status ailment than the paralyze you wanted to get rid of. To add more suck to this, while trying to get rid of paralyze, you also cannot restore your HP, because that's on the same timer as healing waltz. Additionally, attempting to heal several status ailments on several party members takes forever, but that's what I would hope to solve by splitting timers and/or adding more potent healing waltzes.

As for Amnesia, SCH and BRD gets resist silence to help avoid getting shut down. Amnesia destroys DNC's ability to heal, buff and debuff the enemy, and there is no realistic way to get rid of it either, unlike Silence which can be cured by cheap echo drops. I mean sure, there is Ecphoria Ring, but that's a 30 second wait after swapping into it before you can even use it. Resist Amnesia just makes sense for a dancer.

[Cowardlybabooon]

I'm glad this topic turned away from deathroses dnc ability, but for the record he is one of the best around. It's all he does and has been for a long time. On the other topics, I totally agree, healing waltzga and alliance buffs would fix everything. Steps might run the risk of being ignored even if buffed.

[Damane]

no offense to the OP and I get where your comein from with this since I play DNC myself... but you are incorrect. DNC excells at lowmaning things pritty good. It shines in events where you arent trying to take a wall down: Dynamis, Limbus, Sky, ZNM, Savage etc.

where as it sux on things that need specialization like: Legion, NNI, VW.

I am perfectly fine with this, because when I go do things like Legion, NNI, VW I job change to WAR or SCH or WHM or COR (whatever is needed in that situation). ON the other way around my WAR, WHM,COR and SCH would suck solo in Dynamis, Legion, Sky etc. compared to my DNC. So it evens things out.

The only change I would like to see is that Sambas apply to the whole alliance instead of only the PT.

The whole thing above applies also to NIN PUP PLD (limited use in legion and VW) THF(well thf is usefull in both regards) BST. They shine in low man situations but suck when it comes to specialization.

[Lyberty]

If a job is exploited or required it can be considered to strong. If a job is ignored or left out it can be considered too weak. By telling people "All you have to do is to play the job you love when you get the chance." you're in essence putting a table cloth on top of a huge scratch. This doesn't make the scratch go away it's still under the table cloth.

I don't take kindly to people telling me tough luck deal with it when a few simple changes could bring happiness to more people. Also, I pity you because you're happy trying to desensitize others who recognize balance problems. Under this logic we'd still be stuck at the level 75 cap with only 18 jobs. I think people who are creative should be the ones that should be speaking up not the people who would blindly accept anything they're given and accept it.

I just said that because when it comes down to balancing the job what can you really do besides begging to the dev team to fix it? RDMs are out there asking for fixes that probably will never happen, I could give some ideas and suggestions but for what? To be ignored like everyone else? Also the dev team is not putting as much effort in the game as they used to put, thats why I dont expect much anymore, as simple as that... I admire people that still hope that changes will be made but I am not one if them, thats why I just enjoy the game as it is and dont "hope" that anything will change.. If it happens its good but if it doesnt, what can I really do?

[Deathrose]

Afa thank you... cause your right. Although even still id like to see a boost in our step power and a boost to our sambas to give us more of an edge at 99. Lets look at other jobs. What about blu I notice that it doesnt get much recognition. How do you guys think it can be modified? Maybe make it so it can use all its spells? honestly id like to see the timer for resetting spells either cut down drastically or eliminated as a whole. Input yall?

[Sarick]

I just said that because when it comes down to balancing the job what can you really do besides begging to the dev team to fix it? RDMs are out there asking for fixes that probably will never happen, I could give some ideas and suggestions but for what? To be ignored like everyone else? Also the dev team is not putting as much effort in the game as they used to put, thats why I dont expect much anymore, as simple as that... I admire people that still hope that changes will be made but I am not one if them, thats why I just enjoy the game as it is and dont "hope" that anything will change.. If it happens its good but if it doesnt, what can I really do?

Giving up never solves anything. Sure they aren't listening to much of the user base who makes suggestions or complains but its good to keep trying. By saying lets just fall over dead accept our losses we aren't worth listening to even if they are being irrational.

You have to also realize some of the comments given by the user base aren't conveyed/translated correctly. Just look at my suggestion in this topic where I ask for scaling benefits. A lot of the players seems to think when I speak of dancer it means the sambas hit players in the alliance. This would be nice but it's not what scaling is. It means that the job draws on allies to AMPLIFY existing abilities.

Think of it like this when you have a boat racing team that's out of sync they aren't efficient. When they add a drummer that beats a drum to synchronize everyone. The efficiency rockets, even if the drummer isn't participating in actively pushing the boat his/her abilities amplify the group to do more then an extra person rowing.

Frankly if these weaker jobs can't do this to compensate the developers are failing horribly and need constant reminders why. Just because they can't figure it out doesn't mean we should give up either.

Please remember that.

[Ordoric]

bout the only ajustment i can see for dnc and yess i have one is add mandu posably changing steps and break them in to two groups on different timers < yeah you can add a psyco timer have duration come in to play > but the job is not bad id be good with some resist amnisia as dancers tend to commit steps and dances to unfailing memory irl. i am totaly in agrence of that much beyond the jobs very nice

[Lyberty]

Giving up never solves anything. Sure they aren't listening to much of the user base who makes suggestions or complains but its good to keep trying. By saying lets just fall over dead accept our losses we aren't worth listening to even if they are being irrational.

You have to also realize some of the comments given by the user base aren't conveyed/translated correctly. Just look at my suggestion in this topic where I ask for scaling benefits. A lot of the players seems to think when I speak of dancer it means the sambas hit players in the alliance. This would be nice but it's not what scaling is. It means that the job draws on allies to AMPLIFY existing abilities.

Think of it like this when you have a boat racing team that's out of sync they aren't efficient. When they add a drummer that beats a drum to synchronize everyone. The efficiency rockets, even if the drummer isn't participating in actively pushing the boat his/her abilities amplify the group to do more then an extra person rowing.

Frankly if these weaker jobs can't do this to compensate the developers are failing horribly and need constant reminders why. Just because they can't figure it out doesn't mean we should give up either.

Please remember that.

Saric I agree with what you said... I guess Im just tired of seeing ppl giving good suggestions and the dev team just ignoring them... Thanks for sharing the way you think as a civilized person and not just bashing me for the way I think. :) cheers!

[Cowardlybabooon]

I would like to see a new samba that gives a buff based on the job attacking the mob. So if you're in a party with war and drk, they get double attack and attack bonus respectively. Not sure if this can be programmed in the current system, but it could be interesting. I never thought haste samba would be obsolete :-(

[nyheen]

most of the jobs are fine, sure some do need a little tune up, but some of you making it seems like dnc is broken.lol, who ever said dnc dmg was bad need to learn how to use it, and stop LoLleeching!

pup is fine now, it WAS broken for a long time (mostly the whm pet) but it good to go now!

now rdm is the one that Need a good old tune up. the only reason it so far back cause of the lvl cap going up, it not as unique as it was before. same happen when sch came out. it was nothing special about it till that update came and turn it around. ya so if any job need fixxing ASAP would be rdm first and not some subjob only thing><

[dragonfate]

Dev team there are jobs in this game that need some immediate attention. I initially made this link for the dancer job, there are others that need a fix up too(blu heres to you), but imma focus on my primary job the dancer. Admittedly this job lags so far behind the others in terms of performance whether it is dmg, curing, or enfeebling. It really infuriates me when ppl talk about this job being a waste of a spot, this that and the other of how its a meh job. Some of us, like me, put our all in this and love it dearly, but it is extremely insulting when ppl criticize my work and tell me im wasting my time on it. The truth of the matter is deep down I can see what they are saying, but this job has emmense potential but for some reason Dev team fears giving it any meaningful abilities that will make it stand out. Our healing is pointless when it come to higher dmg dealing mobs, Our dmg is pathetic for the most part on higher level mobs versus other jobs including nin, and our buffs/debuffs(debufs especially) are mediocure at best. Those steps dont give dnc any sort of leverage over anything at this point, soloing for the most part is pointless due to all the new tp moves mobs are getting. I am begging you Dev team fix this issue Through a major buff of our abilities as a main job be it a major step potency increase, dmg increase, healing, or hell seeing how far it lags behind the others, an across the board buff but would be MUCH appreciate it. You have to understand im sure im not the only one here who wants this job to flourish(no pun intended). All those who feel the same please comment. I would love so much for people to stop criticizing our hard work and for it to be appreciated for those who take the time to gear it to its lofty heights. Thank you in advance everyone.

I am with you here i hate when other players say that about Dancer ><. and ya i am using the dancer job correctly. Unlike the dancers that sub nin dancers are front of the line healers not evading tanks like ninja's are. If you sub sam you get tp much faster then if you would sub ninja

[dragonfate]

lol im very good at this job actually, one of the best thank you, but uh.... It drasticly lacks in performance in regards to end-game content. Its just not desired at all and is seen as a waste of a slot. I seek to change this out-look of people and finally set dancer in the spot light with some of its most unique abilities boosted to more adequet levels, as to where they make more a diffrence in alliance settings. Just as an example, raising box to 18%(i suggested 20) i guess would be a start, not much but a start. Sambas lack to be honest with all the other haste objects. Drain has been a joke and still is a joke and needs a boost to be viable. Soloing is next to pointless now due to the fact that even bst can do better in dyna than we can, abyssea is all but dead and pointless now, and anything else that dancer may be a option for, the rewards are minimal to say the least. Dancer has many neat abilities that just are just not good enough to be wanted in any end-game content via a dancer main. Also like I said in my above post the dmg could use a change but you know for the most part im not too concernd on it seeing as I dont expect them to hit like war mnks and the sort cause that not how the game is set up. I do, however, want the job to finally come out of every other jobs shadow and get to do the part that Dev has neglected to build for sometime now which is team work with a party. Dancer can be a wonderful asset to end-game content if tweaked more.


P.S= People have been commenting on a change to the JA delay times. This also would help dnc since it suffes baddly in regards to dps cause of this.


Hey i am one of the best dancers too^^

[nyheen]

I am with you here i hate when other players say that about Dancer ><. and ya i am using the dancer job correctly. Unlike the dancers that sub nin dancers are front of the line healers not evading tanks like ninja's are. If you sub sam you get tp much faster then if you would sub ninja

dont mean to nitpick but subing nin on dnc helps lot on most of the NM etc that spam tp move that hit your shadows. /sam give you little more tp sure, but it gonna be more work on you since now you taking dmg and got to heal yourself + who ever else. least /nin let you DD/tank on most NM without taking much dmg and on focus on others without wasting a cure timer on yourself

also dont get why i see so many people that thf subbing /dnc solo etc >< it kills your dmg and waste more tp trying to heal yourself. with /nin you can zerg things down quicker with less downtime.

anyways that just me. :)

[Suph]

I prefer /DNC as sub if i'm going to solo, not just for THF, but also WAR SAM NIN and BLU. From /DNC I get self healing, debuff removal and stun, and I have to tell you Stun is the important one here. Even duoing with a WHM, I still /DNC for that stun.

/NIN only give you 3 shadows and nothing else. And the time spent trying to cast for shadows really slow your damage down. Many NM that I fight have AoE TP moves anyway, and your shadow will be wiped after 1 of the NM's TP move.

For normal attack, if the NM have high accuracy, 3 shadows really isn't enough, and really slow you down when you have to recast. Especially if your casting is interrupted. That's a loss of both TP and DPS. And if the NM have low accuracy, /DNC with drain samba will be more than enough to heal you.

And even if somehow /DNC really does kill your damage, any mob I fight on THF, the extra time to try and take it to TH12 is always welcome. If I'm farming NQ mobs with quick enough repop to make faster kill time more efficient than higher TH, then BLU/THF is a better choice. You get TH3 from that anyway.

As for main DNC tanking or soloing, I'm really not quite sure. Only ever solo on DNC once after I took it to 99, and it was as a 99DNC/00 in Dynamis, takes a long time to kill anything, but didn't have a problem tanking any mob like that. So DNC can solo fine without /NIN. And if you're with a group, why have the DNC tank? They should be healing, and /SAM help them with that from 15% extra TP and Meditate. For group tanking go NIN/DNC, NIN/DNC get access to Yurin, Myoshu, Kurayami, Hojo, and Jubaku, not to mention 5 shadows. As a THF/DNC I really miss having Yurin much more than the missing shadows.

[saevel]

DNC should not be /SAM ever...

/SAM is +15 Store TP and Meditate is 60TP on a 3min timer.

1h's can't use the best parts of /SAM, 10% JA haste from Hasso and the pseudo-blinks from Seigan TE. The 10% DA from /WAR would do you better overall then /SAM, or as the above posters mentioned using Ni from /SAM.

Ok now to what really "kills DNC", it's three fold. First is the shared waltz timer is entirely too long for the higher heals. Second is that DNC tends to use so many JA's that the 60~120 unit delay timer kicks their melee damage in the nuts. And finally that so many idiots build up to 300 TP and sit on it, then complain about how low their damage is compared to everyone else who is using their WS's.

[Rezeak]

I see no problem with DNC/SAM lol

Ofc, it's not the best sub 100% of the time but

+15 Store tp = 10-15% more tp from hits
Meditate = 60 tp (you may shrug at it but it's good for places u may have down time)
Sekkioni = Another self skillchain u can pump out.

Honestly if you don't need shadows or TH then /SAM looks like the best sub for DNC

As for the crap about BST being gimp, while it may not be the NNI or Legion master it certainly is the best/easiest job for Dyna, Any old story cocntent and Lots of NMs in Sky and Sea, so it has it's uses unlike some jobs that really need a fix.

Like PLD (it has it's uses but it still can't hold hate which is what it's ment to do)
PUP and RDM

SMN too even though it does have a use it's dps is well too low vs other dps jobs (not asking for it to do the same as a pimped out DRK but like 50% would be good). But as a job it's not too broken like the other but it's really lost the magic of what made SMN special.

[dragonfate]

I see no problem with DNC/SAM lol

Ofc, it's not the best sub 100% of the time but

+15 Store tp = 10-15% more tp from hits
Meditate = 60 tp (you may shrug at it but it's good for places u may have down time)
Sekkioni = Another self skillchain u can pump out.

Honestly if you don't need shadows or TH then /SAM looks like the best sub for DNC

As for the crap about BST being gimp, while it may not be the NNI or Legion master it certainly is the best/easiest job for Dyna, Any old story cocntent and Lots of NMs in Sky and Sea, so it has it's uses unlike some jobs that really need a fix.

Like PLD (it has it's uses but it still can't hold hate which is what it's ment to do)
PUP and RDM

SMN too even though it does have a use it's dps is well too low vs other dps jobs (not asking for it to do the same as a pimped out DRK but like 50% would be good). But as a job it's not too broken like the other but it's really lost the magic of what made SMN special.


ya thats why i say dancer goes better with sam then nin. because dancer is a front of the line healer. And that job is tp based job just like sam is. and i just tanked my first nm in abyssea with out using /nin and i kick its ass ^^

[dragonfate]

DNC should not be /SAM ever...

/SAM is +15 Store TP and Meditate is 60TP on a 3min timer.

1h's can't use the best parts of /SAM, 10% JA haste from Hasso and the pseudo-blinks from Seigan TE. The 10% DA from /WAR would do you better overall then /SAM, or as the above posters mentioned using Ni from /SAM.

Ok now to what really "kills DNC", it's three fold. First is the shared waltz timer is entirely too long for the higher heals. Second is that DNC tends to use so many JA's that the 60~120 unit delay timer kicks their melee damage in the nuts. And finally that so many idiots build up to 300 TP and sit on it, then complain about how low their damage is compared to everyone else who is using their WS's.

if you say that then you dont know the dancer job at all the 2 best sub jobs for dancers are
(1 being /SAM true dancers)
(2 being /nin ok dancers)
(3being /war best dancers)
and you dont use the Dancer JA's at all

[Elphy]

And finally that so many idiots build up to 300 TP and sit on it, then complain about how low their damage is compared to everyone else who is using their WS's.

If you sit on your 300 tp as dnc than its one of those dncs I spoke of before that have no idea how to play dnc, between steps, no foot rise and presto + reverse flourish there are barely any reasons a dnc should be without enough tp to do an emergency waltz if needed. Sitting 300 tp for the duration of the fight makes a real dnc /facepalm

[Arcon]

if you say that then you dont know the dancer job at all the 2 best sub jobs dancers are
(1 being /SAM true dancers)
(2 being /nin ok dancers)
and you dont use the Dancer JA's at all

Not everyone wants their DNC to be a main healer, and if you do I'm pretty sure you're in the absolute minority. If you don't mention /WAR it's you who doesn't know DNC at all. Also, DNC/NIN has immensely higher survival potential than DNC/SAM will ever have. The only reason to sub /SAM over /NIN is if you want damage, and then /WAR will win in almost every situation. Even the TP gain from /WAR is almost as good as from /SAM, because of the 10% extra Double Attack. And since Hasso doesn't work for one-handed weapons, /SAM only offers Meditate to get an insignificant amount of TP every other eternity and a self-SC every third eternity (which may not even deal more damage, depending on the weapon skills you have to use to form a skillchain).

[Byrth]

WAR is the best DD sub for DNC purely due to Berserk. We don't get the Double Attack because Saber Dance seems to overwrite the trait. Dancer doesn't gain much from any sub relative to other jobs, though.


These are the problems I see for Dancer along with the solutions and justification:
1) High Job Ability delay (the pause in actions after using a job ability) limits our playstyle.
Adjustment:
* Reduce both phases of Job ability delay by 1 second specifically for Steps, Sambas, and Flourishes.
Justification:
Using steps and flourishes costs you multiple attack rounds and commonly is only used to gain TP, which you can also gain by just taking those attack rounds. You might gain less TP by simply attacking, but you're also doing damage at the same time. Due to this, it's not actually worth using Steps and Flourishes unless you're skillchaining or solo. Because you can pretty much only skillchain when you're solo, it's safe to say that Dancer playstyle breaks down when you're in a party. Not good for an alleged support job.


2) Samba viability problems: Sambas are impractical in current events, Sambas other than Haste Samba suck, Haste Samba doesn't matter if you're already capping delay, and in high buff situations there's no difference between DNC main and DNC sub using Haste Samba for any job (the last 5% is irrelevant).
Adjustment:
* Increase Haste Samba for DNC main job to 10% JA Haste base without merits and leave /DNC Samba at 5%.
* Change Haste Samba merits from increasing Haste to adding 2% Haste per merit level to Drain/Aspir Sambas.
* Fix Spheres so that they affect the user.
* Change Sambas so that they're a sphere that gives their effect.
* Change Drain/Aspir Samba so that they calculate maximum Drain amount before forms of delay reduction.
Justification:
The 80% Delay cap can be hit with 25% equipment Haste, 43.75% Magic Haste (the magic haste cap), and 11.25% Job Ability Haste/delay reduction. This last 11.25% is covered by Martial Arts/Dual Wield for 1H jobs and mostly covered by Hasso (10% of it) for 2H jobs. That leaves the last 1.25% for Samba, and both /DNC Samba (5%) and 5/5 Haste Samba DNC Samba (10%) can cap it. This is really pretty insufficient, and means that DNC isn't going to be useful in high buff situations.
Instead of fighting that, I would recommend pushing towards DNC being a buffer/DD hybrid for lowman events. The problem with lowman events at the moment is that you're generally fighting level 75 content and everyone is fighting a different monster, thus not getting Samba. If Samba was a fixed-Sphere effect then this wouldn't matter, and allowing us to put Drain or Aspir on top of that would be very nice.


3) Our Flourish recast timers are too limiting.
Adjustment:
* Reduce Wild Flourish to a 10 second recast
* Eliminate Building Flourish's recast timer, or switch it with Desperate Flourish.
* Reduce the Flourishes III options to a 1 minute recast
Justification:
Wild Flourish is currently the competition for Reverse Flourish especially if the monster has <100% HP, but I find myself unwilling to use it because Reverse Flourish's damage potential is ultimately so much higher and I may want to use that instead during the recast. If the recast was less of an issue, I would be more willing to use it and my playstyle could be more fluid. Similarly, Building Flourish currently sees no use because of JA delay and the fact that it can't be chained together with other WS buffs (like Wild Flourish and Reverse Flourish). If you eliminated it's recast timer, we could do that.
The Flourishes III reduction is less important, but more just a "why not?" kind of suggestion. The only useful flourish from that category at the moment is Climactic Flourish, which has the shortest recast. Why not just reduce all of them to 1 minute so people can use them more freely? It stinks to have a whole category locked out for minutes if you use one of them.


4) Our Waltz abilities share the same recast timer, and this is terrible if you're actually trying to heal.
Adjustment:
* Reduce Curing Waltz IV to a 12 second recast and Curing Waltz V to a 14 second recast.
* Split Waltzes into two categories (odd and even), with Healing Waltz in the even group.
Category 1: Curing Waltz, Curing Waltz III, Curing Waltz V, Divine Waltz
Category 2: Healing Waltz, Curing Waltz II, Curing Waltz IV, Divine Waltz II
Justification:
There are two ways to look at Dancer as a healer. First, you could say that because their job abilities are nearly instant there should be a substantial penalty associated with them in the form of a recast timer. Second, you could say that because their abilities cost TP they should be self-limiting (due to your TP gain) and don't require any substantial penalty beyond that. I am of the second camp. At the moment HP healed/minute is higher than possibly usable for healers like White Mage, so it wouldn't be game breaking if Dancer could spend all the TP they make and increase their HP healed/minute. Splitting Waltzes into two categories still leaves them somewhat recast dependent while allowing us more variety with our healing.


5) Samba duration is too short.
Adjustment:
* Increase Samba durations to 3 minutes, with AF1+1 head adding another minute and Saber Dance merits adding 15 seconds per merit level for a total possible duration of 5 minutes.
* Double Samba TP costs.
Justification:
Reapplying buffs is tedious, especially when we have essentially no reason to switch between the buffs. Making Sambas cost twice as much and last twice as long reduces the annoyance for the player while still providing the same penalty.


There are more adjustments to be made (like making Flourishes III useful), but I'll stop here for today because it's time for post-Thanksgiving Dinner.

[dragonfate]

Not everyone wants their DNC to be a main healer, and if you do I'm pretty sure you're in the absolute minority. If you don't mention /WAR it's you who doesn't know DNC at all. Also, DNC/NIN has immensely higher survival potential than DNC/SAM will ever have. The only reason to sub /SAM over /NIN is if you want damage, and then /WAR will win in almost every situation. Even the TP gain from /WAR is almost as good as from /SAM, because of the 10% extra Double Attack. And since Hasso doesn't work for one-handed weapons, /SAM only offers Meditate to get an insignificant amount of TP every other eternity and a self-SC every third eternity (which may not even deal more damage, depending on the weapon skills you have to use to form a skillchain).

ok i did not say any thing about /war because i did not try that combo yet and i dont want to say any thing bad or good about a combo that i did not try yet so :p . and i know for a fact that a /sam last longer then /nin if you now how to use dancer the /sam way. and i'll try the /war way and get back to you on that :) o and i do know dancer ooooooo soooooooo good and if i didnt then i would not see what you are talking about how a /war would be good for a dancer job. but i do see what you mean and i am so with you on the /war and thats why i am going to try it out but so far /sam is my fov. and i fixed up #38 of what i think

[Mirage]

How does /sam last longer? If I have survivability issues, it's because of waltz timers, not because I'm out of TP.

[dragonfate]

How does /sam last longer? If I have survivability issues, it's because of waltz timers, not because I'm out of TP. /sam does last longer if you know how to use dancer and when to use waltz and when to use the 2hr.

[nyheen]

if you say that then you dont know the dancer job at all the 2 best sub jobs for dancers are
(1 being /SAM true dancers)
(2 being /nin ok dancers)
and you dont use the Dancer JA's at all

dont know about you and the others but i keep up with my ja as /nin + busting out 4k+ (or higher on most NM) Rudra's Storm while soloing NM DD/tanking at the sametime with no down time. since i dont have to keep wasting time spamming cure, all that can go to dmg. i can name so many NMs that would eat up a /sam, sobek, Bennu Chlevnik Chione, etc the list goes on.

[dragonfate]

i did sobek with /Sam and i kick his ass :) and i don't have that ws yet and my eva. is caped and i am a Mithra. so then again we Mithra's have high Dexterity makes for great Accuracy for TP gain, which is vital for a Dancer and Mithra's high Agility provides the extra evasion. and there you go Mithra dancers can do the nms the /Sam way or the /war way too and l do not know about a any other race in the game but a Mithra dancer should be able to kill/tank them with little help from another healer just like the /nin would :p so give me a healer and ill kill all tho's nm's just to prove you worng about kiling tho's nms with /sam. but for /war i have not tried yet so for thos who /war i cant say any thing for you guys :(

[Mirage]

/sam does last longer if you know how to use dancer and when to use waltz and when to use the 2hr.

And what is the right way to use dancer? When is the right time to use waltzes and the twohour?

[Ordoric]

dragon this is just a trolling of how perfect you think you are not how the job is broken so you can just stop. seriously do you need this god blessid ego boost max ur haste in gear for dps presto and steps you can reverce flourish faster than most sams can meditate you wana solo sc use wild flourish you wana crit climactic flourish triple and double forced you can use them striking flourish and tenitary flourish so just stop and learn how to gear merit and play it DEVS CAN LOCK THIS POOR excuse for a thread

[nyheen]

dragon this is just a trolling of how perfect you think you are not how the job is broken so you can just stop. seriously do you need this god blessid ego boost max ur haste in gear for dps presto and steps you can reverce flourish faster than most sams can meditate you wana solo sc use wild flourish you wana crit climactic flourish triple and double forced you can use them striking flourish and tenitary flourish so just stop and learn how to gear merit and play it DEVS CAN LOCK THIS POOR excuse for a thread

welll said, dont want this to turn into another drg/dnc cure and do better dmg then drg/mage thing><!.lol

[Ordoric]

actualy reminding me of the elites rdm forums /wrist

[saevel]

@Byrth

I was assuming the DNC actually wanted to cure people sometimes, hence the 10% DA from /WAR.

Honestly Saber Dance always puzzled me, why on earth would a DNC want to disable their cures for long periods of time? If you needed pure DPS then you don't bring a DNC, it would be like a BLU disabling all their spells for a melee DPS boost. Looks fine on paper until you realize the moogle exists and pure DPS is <change job -> MNK/SAM/WAR/DRG/DRK/ect..> away. If you need survivability then your not disabling your healing spells for any length of time, though I can see a quick ~30s burst where your spam a few WS's.

[Infidi]

@Byrth

I was assuming the DNC actually wanted to cure people sometimes, hence the 10% DA from /WAR.

Honestly Saber Dance always puzzled me, why on earth would a DNC want to disable their cures for long periods of time? If you needed pure DPS then you don't bring a DNC, it would be like a BLU disabling all their spells for a melee DPS boost. Looks fine on paper until you realize the moogle exists and pure DPS is <change job -> MNK/SAM/WAR/DRG/DRK/ect..> away. If you need survivability then your not disabling your healing spells for any length of time, though I can see a quick ~30s burst where your spam a few WS's.

Wellll, Saber Dance degrades then caps out after abit. And it has a pretty short recast timer. So, maybe the /war for when u take off saber dance manually and pop a cure? Less DA(20% fulley degraded on saber dance. /war is 10% I think it was?) Emergency situations that would require not full timing saber dance/not high enough evasion would be pop fan dance( which overwrites it if I recall) then pop a cure and back to saber dance. Especially since the merits are just for duration now instead of potency; in the case of saber dance. Guess it boils down to preferences?

[Arcon]

WAR is the best DD sub for DNC purely due to Berserk. We don't get the Double Attack because Saber Dance seems to overwrite the trait. Dancer doesn't gain much from any sub relative to other jobs, though.

Here I was hoping it wouldn't shine through that I don't actually have DNC. No such luck!


and i know for a fact that a /sam last longer then /nin if you now how to use dancer the /sam way.

Which way is that? Describe it, please, so I can learn. What does /SAM have to make up for the loss of Utsusemi?


If you needed pure DPS then you don't bring a DNC,

What if you don't need pure DPS, but a hybrid? DNC is as good as it gets, possibly only beaten by NIN.

[saevel]

What if you don't need pure DPS, but a hybrid? DNC is as good as it gets, possibly only beaten by NIN.

I already said,


f you need survivability then your not disabling your healing spells for any length of time, though I can see a quick ~30s burst where your spam a few WS's.

And i would put BLU >>> DNC for "hybrid". Can do everything plus long a$$ stun, aoe sleep, aoe erase, 600+ cures faster then every 20+ seconds, Curaga III, and a host of other mix and match abilities (saline coat / harden shell / ect..). A BLU/SCH is a force of nature in those low-man hybrid healer / DD situations. Only thing that DNC does better is have a much higher evasion and fan dance, so soloing certain NMs is far easier.

[Eri]

As much as i agree with the OP...being a suportive Player and all...

I also want to give Byrth credit for makeing a really good Post about Dancers current Gameplay, and problems that prevent us from getting into some events on regular terms!

I just want to add some Comments^^

While i love to play /Sam....(Its my subjob of choice!) im /War most of the time now due to reasons named,

Surviveablity is a Point that was discussed. And i probably agree with /Nin being better. I say that haveing capped Eva/Parrying being Mithra. Unless if it was a mob say like.. Fuath that spamms AoE like Hell. But for the normal Mobs i'd say /Nin......


Mobs that can't be meeled fulltime for some Reasons are a Dancers Enemy since you cannot use your Abilitys freely tp may turn out to be an Issue, therefore a Main Dancer would have to have a silght Regain effect while not engaged either as a Job Trait or as a Stance ability that restrics WS and deletes all tp if canceled.
That should be not as high as if you were fighting! Just good enought to use your Abilitys.

Another Point in Abys/VW is obvious. Triggers.
Aby: NO Ja Triggers.
VW: All but one Trigger can be gained with Subjob Dnc.
Thats bad design SE!

Oh and the to the Mainjob: .... Pls make a main Dancers Healing Waltz ( as previously mentioned) remove 2 Debuffs...
and enable it to cure petrify.

As oposed to the resist Trait (Para/Amnezia) i would very much like a 5 Minute Recast Ability,
That cannot be Affected by Para/Amnezia and removes them for the user only.
That would not help while soloing due to recasts. But it would help in Party Situations...

[Caketime]

Honestly Saber Dance always puzzled me, why on earth would a DNC want to disable their cures for long periods of time?

This is where pocket healers come in handy, so the person who insists on playing DNC and using Saber Dance can do exactly that off in the corner and not bother the rest of us with their shenanigans.

[Arcon]

I already said, [..]

What if you want survivability without wasting TP on healing? Bring a mule? Bring another job? Which brings me to...


And i would put BLU >>> DNC for "hybrid".

How Pchan of you. What if you don't have every job for every situation leveled? In a discussion about what's best for one job, another job is not the right answer.

[saevel]

What if you don't need pure DPS, but a hybrid? DNC is as good as it gets, possibly only beaten by NIN.

To which I replied.


And i would put BLU >>> DNC for "hybrid".

Which refutes your statement.

Now if someone doesn't have a fully leveled / geared / built BLU and has a fully leveled / geared / built DNC, then they should go DNC if they need to be hybrid support / melee. If you were to compare the two then BLU wins handily, not having to throw your WS damage into the sh!tter to use and / all of your abilities kind of does that. Honestly that is where SE messed up the most with DNC, making it based entirely on TP which also happens to be the source of 30~50% (sometimes 60~70%) of some jobs damage. There should of been a separate counter / source that DNC abilities pull from to do their work rather then handicapping your WS output.

[Caketime]

A system similar to Strat charges would likely help DNC, as long as the charges replenish at a decent rate or it were possible to generate charges through use of abilities.

[Thorbean]

Steps + Reverse Flourish?
"Self skillchain onry!!!"
Presto, No foot rise?

The tools are already there.
If they are not cutting it then that's the best place to start. Revisions to an existing system are much more likely than a completely new system.

[SpankWustler]

Today, I looked up Presto and learned that Presto adds 50 accuracy to the step it is used in conjunction with. I felt something in my mind creak and give.

Fifty accuracy on top of the accuracy a Dancer would normally use to, you know, hit things with things 95% of the time like a right and proper individual. On top of the accuracy bonuses that every piece that "Enhances Steps" adds, which is already pointless. On top of the accuracy bonus that the Mythic weapon that I can't spell adds, if anyone hates himself or herself enough to make it.

I can only assume the Development Bros view this redundant accuracy bonus as one of the pluses of the ability.

The only logical conclusion I can make from this is that someone on the Development Team personally hates Byrth. Have you ever visited Japan, Byrth? Did you visit as a tourist and lure somebody's wife into a love hotel? Did you rent a scooter and run over somebody's cat?

[Deathrose]

I have to wonder though... I was doing dyna the other day on dc mobs and i swear i missed a step on a mob three times with presto up lol.

It drives me when i miss a step multiple times in a row on a mob i should have that 95% hit rate on w/o presto.

[saevel]

It's known as the "Curse of the Samurai" in reference to ya ole Gekko spam days. The plus of a 95% hit rate one hit move is that it'll hit 95% of the time, the con is that it will miss 5% of the time and there is nothing you can do about it. You don't get to chose which 5% miss's either.

[Mageoholic]

I already said,



And i would put BLU >>> DNC for "hybrid". Can do everything plus long a$$ stun, aoe sleep, aoe erase, 600+ cures faster then every 20+ seconds, Curaga III, and a host of other mix and match abilities (saline coat / harden shell / ect..). A BLU/SCH is a force of nature in those low-man hybrid healer / DD situations. Only thing that DNC does better is have a much higher evasion and fan dance, so soloing certain NMs is far easier.

and BLUs multi use is married to a 1 minute timer, in which case DNC has had the option to perform one of its support options or dump to a WS three times. BLU/SCH is a great support option, but it does not offer the felexibility that DNC has, which limits use greatly. If you do not need the extra support what good is it? DNC can easily fllex into either role, and has the abilities available to perform those roles on demand.

If you are bringing a BLU/SCH to specifically perform a support function, why not bring a SCH/RDM, or a RDM/SCH, or hell just go for broke and add a WHM to the group.

The point of having a hybrid in the group is to have a flexible member who can change from a support role to offensive role quickly and seamlessly BLU lacks this key element in performance, and is really the one of the weaker options available to fill a hybrid role. It performs better than other hybrids when performing dedicated positions, but if you are going to do that, you may as well just bring a dedicated job.

[Damane]

and BLUs multi use is married to a 1 minute timer, in which case DNC has had the option to perform one of its support options or dump to a WS three times. BLU/SCH is a great support option, but it does not offer the felexibility that DNC has, which limits use greatly. If you do not need the extra support what good is it? DNC can easily fllex into either role, and has the abilities available to perform those roles on demand.

If you are bringing a BLU/SCH to specifically perform a support function, why not bring a SCH/RDM, or a RDM/SCH, or hell just go for broke and add a WHM to the group.

The point of having a hybrid in the group is to have a flexible member who can change from a support role to offensive role quickly and seamlessly BLU lacks this key element in performance, and is really the one of the weaker options available to fill a hybrid role. It performs better than other hybrids when performing dedicated positions, but if you are going to do that, you may as well just bring a dedicated job.

actually BLU does not need to sub SCH to be a hybrid. They can DD quiet well and have the means to support the party directly via cures/buffs(to some extent with merit 2 categorys) and more indirectly via debuffs a dnc cant do. They have so many debuffs at hands that it puts DNC in a really bad place, Dispels/Sleeps/Acc. down/Def. Down/Eva. Down/multiple sources of stun/AoE erase/list goes on. Not to mention that in places where DNC can decently do dmg, a BLU will be able to burst dmg out quickly if they wanted via physical blu spells (assumeing the MP lets them do it). So they can even "zerg" some things.

Dont get me wrong, I love my DNC, but BLU definitly brings way more to the table then DNC can ever bring. Dont even forget about all the Job traits a BLU can aquire, this adds to the versatility of the job.

[Mageoholic]

actually BLU does not need to sub SCH to be a hybrid. They can DD quiet well and have the means to support the party directly via cures/buffs(to some extent with merit 2 categorys) and more indirectly via debuffs a dnc cant do. They have so many debuffs at hands that it puts DNC in a really bad place, Dispels/Sleeps/Acc. down/Def. Down/Eva. Down/multiple sources of stun/AoE erase/list goes on. Not to mention that in places where DNC can decently do dmg, a BLU will be able to burst dmg out quickly if they wanted via physical blu spells (assumeing the MP lets them do it). So they can even "zerg" some things.

Dont get me wrong, I love my DNC, but BLU definitly brings way more to the table then DNC can ever bring. Dont even forget about all the Job traits a BLU can aquire, this adds to the versatility of the job.

It can not do all of those things at one time, and that was my point. It lacks any real flexibility. Can it be a good DD, yes, if the proper DD supporting spells are set, Can it be good support, yes, if the proper support spells are set. However it can not set all of these things at one time, it is married to a 1 minute timer on spell setting. Which removes any ability for it to be flexible in any realistic setting. It is a hybrid job without the ability to function as a hybrid, and that is regardless of subjob.

Comparatively DNC has the ability to change its role on the fly using nothing but its native abilities and gear swaps, it is subjob independent and can go from support to DD with the click of a macro.

BLU is a strong job, but to argue its viability as the superior hybrid job in low man content is laughable at best, without any real flexibility it is useless. Bringing it in a dedicated support role serves a purpose but then why bother bringing a BLU for that when a WHM can fit the bill just fine.

If you are looking for a job that can fulfill the hybrid role as a support job and damaging job, RDM is your best bet, as it is solely independent of ability to function, and its native skill set allows it to flow from task to task without pause, it is the single best overall hybrid job. Yet it has a lot of its own problems at the moment, mostly the fact that BRD/RDM is just as good as a RDM in the same context, sacrificing nuke damage for better party buffs (a pretty worthwhile trade imo, unless you are desperate for magic damage.

The only way BLU outclasses RDM in terms of sheer volume of possible uses is in Proc based systems, as RDM has no dependent procs, then again if you are bringing a BLU for its procs, those are a bunch of spells that aren't available to set with other spells that allow it to act as a quasi hybrid.

The inability to be flexible hurts BLUs position in the hybrid pecking order.

[Zagen]

...The inability to be flexible hurts BLUs position in the hybrid pecking order.
I'm guessing you do 0 preparation for a battle before hand. However if you do prepare ahead of time you know what to bring to the table which means that spell reset delay is not an issue.

DNC brings cures, debuffs, light DD, and haste samba if it can reliably sit in melee range otherwise I hope you have an amazing throwing set because you aren't doing jack otherwise. BLU can do all that (except haste samba, though does have a 7~/10 min hastega) in and out of melee range.

Nothing compares to knowing what job to bring by preparing ahead of time, of course my statements above about DNC and BLU only really matter if you only have those two jobs as options. At that point I'd say you should be leveling other options first, if you care about providing the best that may be needed of you as a player instead of solely what you find "fun".

[Mageoholic]

I'm guessing you do 0 preparation for a battle before hand. However if you do prepare ahead of time you know what to bring to the table which means that spell reset delay is not an issue.


I'm guessing you've done to much abyssea and void watch. BLU being married to a spell set timer destroys any usefulness it could have as a hybrid job. Is it great in a dedicated role sure it is, that is its strength, but its weakness is its inability to fluidly move from one role to another.

To make the claim that BLU is the best because it can do all this awesome stuff really well is very misleading. BLU can not do all of that stuff in a reasonable time period, let alone all at once.


DNC however does fill that capacity. It can deal physical damage and can fluidly move into healing, granted it is dependent on TP, and Recast timers, which makes its offensive output drop, and it is unable to heal through burst damage.

So there is your check and balance. BLU is very efficient at performing a specific task, while DNC is capable of performing multiple tasks.

Then look at RDM. It is capable of fluidly moving between support, offense, and magic offense, independent of timers. It can heal burst damage, it can heal incidental damage, it can deal damage through nuking or melee. It is dependent on MP, and has the best tools solo to recoup that MP, it is dependent on recast timers that it natively reduces through traits.

pound for pound RDM is the best hybrid job, it is the only job capable of moving from mob to mob and altering its role depending on the situation. The biggest drawback to RDM is that the main inventory isn't big enough to hold the all the gear to make RDM 80-85% as effective as a main job.

But here is the sick joke. BRD/RDM is even better than RDM in a hybrid role because if you know in advance you need elemental damage...you bring a SCH instead.

But yes sorry for going on so long...I agree with you people should play what they find fun, but for Saevel to make the claim BLU is the best...well that is flat out wrong. It is at the bottom of the barrel, well maybe not below PUP, but it is down there in terms of flexibility, and thus ability to function as a hybrid in a situational manner (read: not abyssea or voidwatch).

[saevel]

Is redmagedontdie seriously arguing about the 60s cooldown on changing your BLU spells out? That's only an issue inside voidwatch for procs, otherwise it's a non~issue. Most set points will be for jobtraits you need based on your situation, same as your sub. /WAR is the default go-to sub for mass damage, DA Bergressor and Attack Bonus. /SCH is for when you need things like Paralyna / Silena / Raise / Invisible Sneak and so forth. Light Arts makes Cure III do ~400 with a good healing set, also has M.Fruit doing ~650 or so. Then you have Aquaveil for when your expecting 10+ things to be hitting you and you need to get Flower or Sheep off. Embrace can go higher but it's kinda expensive for it's HP cured amount. Overall your sacrificing a small amount of offensive power for a larger variety of party support abilities.

There are some other configurations but those are the two main ones. Thing is, a BLU/WAR in full DD mode can still heal more then once per 20+ seconds, they still have WoP and WW should the situation merit them. Not to mention Hastega or aoe Harden Shell.

Just overall BLU is the perfect Hybrid job, one of the few jobs that SE got right.

[Zagen]

BLU is very efficient at performing a specific task, while DNC is capable of performing multiple tasks.
Do you even play BLU?
Compare the 2 jobs in Dynamis, Limbus, Nyzul, or Salvage (you know events where they excel at). They work almost the same except BLU has better HP recovery due to regen + stuns, oh and generally 0 TP moves due to Delta Thrust working on just about everything in there, and doesn't have to worry about adds because of light or dark sleep (exception being dyna beau fomor types). On top of that BLU's spike damage relies on TP, MP, or Finishing Moves (depends on how you play /DNC) instead of TP and Finishing Moves.


pound for pound RDM is the best hybrid job
As to RDM the only thing it comes close to having in common with BLU and DNC at this point is no one cares about it for endgame at the moment. Though to be honest no one cares about hybrids in endgame as they don't offer anything very unique (except BLU in VW and even then it gets ignored usually).

[Afania]

I'm guessing you've done to much abyssea and void watch. BLU being married to a spell set timer destroys any usefulness it could have as a hybrid job. Is it great in a dedicated role sure it is, that is its strength, but its weakness is its inability to fluidly move from one role to another.

To make the claim that BLU is the best because it can do all this awesome stuff really well is very misleading. BLU can not do all of that stuff in a reasonable time period, let alone all at once.


DNC however does fill that capacity. It can deal physical damage and can fluidly move into healing, granted it is dependent on TP, and Recast timers, which makes its offensive output drop, and it is unable to heal through burst damage.

So there is your check and balance. BLU is very efficient at performing a specific task, while DNC is capable of performing multiple tasks.

Then look at RDM. It is capable of fluidly moving between support, offense, and magic offense, independent of timers. It can heal burst damage, it can heal incidental damage, it can deal damage through nuking or melee. It is dependent on MP, and has the best tools solo to recoup that MP, it is dependent on recast timers that it natively reduces through traits.

pound for pound RDM is the best hybrid job, it is the only job capable of moving from mob to mob and altering its role depending on the situation. The biggest drawback to RDM is that the main inventory isn't big enough to hold the all the gear to make RDM 80-85% as effective as a main job.

But here is the sick joke. BRD/RDM is even better than RDM in a hybrid role because if you know in advance you need elemental damage...you bring a SCH instead.

But yes sorry for going on so long...I agree with you people should play what they find fun, but for Saevel to make the claim BLU is the best...well that is flat out wrong. It is at the bottom of the barrel, well maybe not below PUP, but it is down there in terms of flexibility, and thus ability to function as a hybrid in a situational manner (read: not abyssea or voidwatch).

Lol?

You can totally do all those at once on BLU?

You only need DW3 and some QC/HS/Apike to DD, and that's plenty of room to set other spells such as sleeps and cures. I have np setting DW3/DA/QC/HS/Aspike/Sleeps/TH/fruit at once for lowman, and totally capable of dealing dmg while tossing sleeps/fruit. What else do you need for "support"? You can totally fit in dispel or slow etc if you don't set TH too. You sound like you can't DD if you're tossing fruit and vice versa, DNC also can't DD well if it's tossing cures with TP. Since BLU has the option to cure with MP, and cure with TP if you /DNC, I'm going to argue that it's even better healer than DNC and brings more to the table. Note that if you're doing meeble/salvage/limbus etc, BLU can AoE dmg and able to put out more dmg than many other jobs.

[Afania]

The reason dnc is disregarded alot of times in content that doesnt require proc jobs is because there are so many ppl who have played the job in the past, and still currently do, horribly.

I love how this arguement always being used, that "you think X job sucked is because everyone sucked at it and doesn't gear swap"

This applies to every job. Every job has gimps, and only small percent of player are good at it, but you ever wonder why nobody ever complain WAR DRK WHM BRD etc being useless, despite countless players gimp those jobs too?

Some jobs fit in "optimal setup" for certain event, some jobs are easily replaceable(but still able to get things done). That's just the way it goes. Having elite gear and being extremely good at the job will never change the optimal setup, at best it become a rep for certain roles and still able to get things done. You can be an elite DNC and super good at it, parse 50k in 2~3 min prov watcher zerg, and get invite to prov/VW on DNC. But you can't change the fact that WAR DRK is best DD setup for those no matter how you gear swap.

I don't claim that I'm super good but spent quite a bit of effort on my COR too, I have an lv 99 empy, and have various gear sets/SJ for most situations in FFXI I can think of. I have a full evasion set for lowman(and PDT- for legion). And if I /DNC I can cure pretty comfortably with regain roll+ waltz swap+ Mkris. I also blink my PR/QD macros and able to swap rolls fast depending on the need, or even QD kite NMs if I have to and mob kitable, on top of lowest recast time obtainable on PR/QD. I also swap to mextli for crit-hit rate+ sphere effect for crit-hit WS DDs whenever I get a chance to.

I have all 3 merit WS(last stand/Exen/Req) for this job and geared for all 3 of them, and try my best to make decision on which one to use depending on situations(exen if I need acc down for example, req is pretty useless most of the time though).

I'm ok at DDing on this job, often avg 3.4k WF/LS in prov on watcher and KI BCs on none firesday and broke 4k pretty often(note that's higher avg than majority of rag DRK WAR I pt with), I also often outparse PUG 2h melees on all prov KI BC and watcher without using Spellcast. On weaker mobs I can easily 1 shot them with 5k+ last stand if I /WAR. I have melee TP set for haste capped situations, and have a lot* of weapons for various situations....haste dagger if I need haste, 2x evasion dagger from Dominion Ops if I need evasion, Nguul for last stand spamming in ranged mode, Sanus if I need cure and capped pDIF for last stand, Aluh for melee/exen dmg and last stand dmg, Mkris for fast TP gain for more last stand/cures, staff for WF and /ra, etc. And I often try my best to find out what's the optimal way to deal dmg in certain situations with lots of parse and spreadsheet.

Oh and btw, unless AH is out of stacks, you will never see me on this job in group event using any bullet that's not orichalcum bullet.

I even have "almost never get to use for current content" gear sets such as enmity- WF set, or MP+ set. All that is just to prepare in case I ever need it, so I can perform as good as possible no matter how situations not favoring this job. I don't claim to know every players in FFXI, but I rarely encounter a player that bother to spend this much inv and effort on 1 single job and majority of them isn't useful at all.

But do I get to use them?

The answer is no. The only event I ever get to bring COR, is prov/legion and that's it. I maybe play this job 10% of my time in FFXI. I play COR even less than Deathrose plays DNC, and I'm not allowed to complain that this job is useless because it's not replaceable for 2 events(out of many) in this game.


Do I think I can perform properly in events not favoring COR and get the job done, such as NNI/Meeble/dyna solo? Certainly. In fact I'm going to argue that COR isn't BAD for meeble for certain missions too, due to movement speed+ rolls and boss fight. I also have np solo dyna on COR(although obviously I usually don't do it on COR, I only do it when I try to test my ability to solo on this job)

But whenever I bring it up, ppl started drama and tell me to go home and job change to BLU. I'm not allowed to play COR in my meeble static, even though meeble is piss easy content and our static has 6 members, when it's clearable with 3.

Do I think my average geared BLU(it's only lv 85 almace and very incomplete gear set) is more useful than my COR for most of FFXI? Maybe. Do I get recognition for making a bunch of gear set that I never get to use? Certainly not. No one care anyways. But that doesn't mean I'm going to tell everyone else that "you think COR sucked because everyone else sucked, always full time staff+WF and doesn't shoot!" or "Why I don't get recognition for my effort?"

Certain event just favors certain setup, and there isn't much you can change with good gear when another avg gear job performs better. It has nothing to do with other ppl not understanding that job's capability too. All the job JA/gear/trait/spells/useable gears are listed on wiki, what's so not understanding about a job when you can just wiki and math out everything? Do we need to actually play with elite player to know that A job can't DD as well as B job, C job can't cure as well as D job, and X job doesn't have TH?

And that's the difference between able to get things done on A job, and whether that A job fits optimal setup or not. "Everyone else sucked" "You're just ignorant" and "other ppl just don't understand this job!" is a poor, irrational arugment. And counter productive for any job/pt setup discussion.

[Tennotsukai]

Do you even play BLU?
Compare the 2 jobs in Dynamis, Limbus, Nyzul, or Salvage (you know events where they excel at). They work almost the same except BLU has better HP recovery due to regen + stuns, oh and generally 0 TP moves due to Delta Thrust working on just about everything in there, and doesn't have to worry about adds because of light or dark sleep (exception being dyna beau fomor types). On top of that BLU's spike damage relies on TP, MP, or Finishing Moves (depends on how you play /DNC) instead of TP and Finishing Moves.


As to RDM the only thing it comes close to having in common with BLU and DNC at this point is no one cares about it for endgame at the moment. Though to be honest no one cares about hybrids in endgame as they don't offer anything very unique (except BLU in VW and even then it gets ignored usually).

Hmm...that regen kinda sucks though, don't you think? I know it lasts for 3 minutes, but 10 hp/tic is pretty awful.

Also, I would like to point out that this is a forum about jobs that need to be fixed ASAP. With that said, why the f do we still have completely broken spells that do NOTHING??? That's messed up, SE has even acknowledged this multiple times, but nothing has been fixed except on the test server. I am right?

[Zagen]

Hmm...that regen kinda sucks though, don't you think? I know it lasts for 3 minutes, but 10 hp/tic is pretty awful.
Good evasion + stun locking make it much more efficient than Magic Fruit or Sanguine Blade. Also anytime you're running around for any given amount of time favors Regeneration over Magic Fruit usually.


Also, I would like to point out that this is a forum about jobs that need to be fixed ASAP. With that said, why the f do we still have completely broken spells that do NOTHING??? That's messed up, SE has even acknowledged this multiple times, but nothing has been fixed except on the test server. I am right?
Maybe I'm forgetting something but I'm not aware of spells not working for BLU, unless you mean some additional effects on NMs.

[Damane]

I'm guessing you've done to much abyssea and void watch. BLU being married to a spell set timer destroys any usefulness it could have as a hybrid job. Is it great in a dedicated role sure it is, that is its strength, but its weakness is its inability to fluidly move from one role to another.

To make the claim that BLU is the best because it can do all this awesome stuff really well is very misleading. BLU can not do all of that stuff in a reasonable time period, let alone all at once.


DNC however does fill that capacity. It can deal physical damage and can fluidly move into healing, granted it is dependent on TP, and Recast timers, which makes its offensive output drop, and it is unable to heal through burst damage.

So there is your check and balance. BLU is very efficient at performing a specific task, while DNC is capable of performing multiple tasks.

Then look at RDM. It is capable of fluidly moving between support, offense, and magic offense, independent of timers. It can heal burst damage, it can heal incidental damage, it can deal damage through nuking or melee. It is dependent on MP, and has the best tools solo to recoup that MP, it is dependent on recast timers that it natively reduces through traits.

pound for pound RDM is the best hybrid job, it is the only job capable of moving from mob to mob and altering its role depending on the situation. The biggest drawback to RDM is that the main inventory isn't big enough to hold the all the gear to make RDM 80-85% as effective as a main job.

But here is the sick joke. BRD/RDM is even better than RDM in a hybrid role because if you know in advance you need elemental damage...you bring a SCH instead.

But yes sorry for going on so long...I agree with you people should play what they find fun, but for Saevel to make the claim BLU is the best...well that is flat out wrong. It is at the bottom of the barrel, well maybe not below PUP, but it is down there in terms of flexibility, and thus ability to function as a hybrid in a situational manner (read: not abyssea or voidwatch).

I dont think you play BLU yourself, or know competent BLUs. From my own experience, ah well established and good BLU that knows what lies ahead of him (aka whats the strategy for the battle/run whatever) can fit himself almost in every type of slot. Fact is its a way better hybrid job then DNC. I wouldnt even call DNC a hybrid job because it lacks the ability to land potent debuffs(steps are nice but seriously?)/AoE Sleep/Single target sleep. And the buffing part of DNC is lackluster to say the least, haste samba migth be nice, but noone gives a fuck about it in endgame. All DNC has going is Dmg/minor debuffs/minor buffs/stunning/healing vs BLUs Dmg/buffs/debuffs/dispells/crowd controll/healing/excellent stuns. Besides when you encounter a mob that is resistent to physical dmg a BLU will melt just through it, and last I checked Silence is easier to take care of then Amnesia with the use of Echo drops.

The only 3 things that is keeping BLU from stomping on most jobs is the fact that inventory is limited to 80, that Blue magic has a hefty attack penalty on HNMs (or lets say not enough attack bonus for HNMs) and that your Spelllist is limited a bit (tough its big enough to set spells to fit as a hybrid in every situation that doesnt involve HNMs).

[saevel]

Basically BLU is to "Hybrid" what WAR / DRK / SAM / MNK are to "Pure DD". It can do so f*cking much, it's like a swiss army knife that comes with a bazooka attachment. The best thing SE could do is not screw with it and just add a few new spells / JT combos (cheaper DWIII, TA or something) with SoA.

DNC needs fixed just like the other jobs I mentioned earlier. Only being able to use a cureing move once per 15~20s is just BS. It's not even just HP cured but status ailments are also limited on that same timer, you can either remove someone's bind / paralyze or cure their HP, but not both. The moves are WAY to expensive, 50~60TP is half a Ws's worth of damage, 800~1200 depending.

[Afania]

Good evasion + stun locking make it much more efficient than Magic Fruit or Sanguine Blade. Also anytime you're running around for any given amount of time favors Regeneration over Magic Fruit usually.


Maybe I'm forgetting something but I'm not aware of spells not working for BLU, unless you mean some additional effects on NMs.

I think if your fruit can cure for over 600 HP, then fruit is more MP efficient. Otherwise Regeneration is more efficient.

Also he meant the UL spell with def down I think.

[Zagen]

I think if your fruit can cure for over 600 HP, then fruit is more MP efficient. Otherwise Regeneration is more efficient.
Yes if you need the 600 HP at once it would be more efficient, that said while hitting 600 outside of Abyssea is possible it takes a good amount of gear or situational buffs (i.e. double light weather in Nyzul). Technically it isn't that simple but trying to break it down beyond that goes into too many edge cases.


Also he meant the UL spell with def down I think.
Forgot about that spell, thanks.

[saevel]

Yes if you need the 600 HP at once it would be more efficient, that said while hitting 600 outside of Abyssea is possible it takes a good amount of gear or situational buffs (i.e. double light weather in Nyzul). Technically it isn't that simple but trying to break it down beyond that goes into too many edge cases.

As BLU/WAR with a decent +Cure Pot set I can get ~550 on fruit. If I go /SCH and use Sanus I can get 700+ on myself and 650+ on someone else. Without LA it's 650~700 to myself and about ~600 to others. So there are various levels of healing potency depending on what your specific situation / team needs. It's one of the things I like about BLU, so versatile and configurable.