Utsusemi: San?

[Severence]

BLM got Meteor, WHM got Arise, SMN technically got Odin and Alexander, SCH technically got Embrava and Kaustra.

NIN? Utsusemi: San?
I don't think I'm wrong in asking for this. Since it's obviously in the game since the Yagudo in TOAU uses it. Make it ridiculous recast for all I care. Just make it attainable somehow.

While I'm at it: Faith and Bravery for RDM.

Just some water to bake your noodle.

[Tennotsukai]

sure, why not

[Babekeke]

And the new NIN SP is.... Utsusemi: San! congratulations!

[Kincard]

Yagudo in TOAU uses it

Actually, he doesn't. Utsusemi: San is just one of those spells that's in the game files but never got used, much like Libra (Before it was re-purposed in a JA), Frog, Confuse, and a bunch of BLU spells.

Really, Ninja should get Ni spells and San spells for pretty much every single spell, because not only are enfeebles barely used in endgame play anymore outside of proccing anyway, Ninja's existing Ni spells actually get outdone by tier one white magic equivalents (Slow 1 caps higher than Hojo: Ni etc). The only spell that should not get higher levels without some balance considerations is Migawari, since it's one of the only Ninjutsu spells worth using outside of Utsusemi.

If the pattern continued and Hojo: San ended up being 25% slow (compared to Ichi's ~15% and Ni's ~20%), it'd still be outdone by slow 1 which caps at ~30%, even though it requires an absurd amount of MND (which any good WHM or RDM would have a build for anyway). It certainly would be nothing compared to a 5/5 slow II which caps at 39%. The same can be said for Jubaku VS Paralyze, Kurayami VS Blind.

Extra tiers of Yurin would not be unbalanced because Penance is 25%, whereas Yurin is 10%. Even a San level would assumedly be 20% which is still weaker than Penance.

Aisha sucks.

Also, if there's going to be adjustments to ninjutsu...extend Kakka and Myoshu to 15 minutes and maybe I'll bother casting them.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

It'll be funny when nin have para III and rdm doesn't.

[Severence]

Actually, he doesn't. Utsusemi: San is just one of those spells that's in the game files but never got used, much like Libra (Before it was re-purposed in a JA), Frog, Confuse, and a bunch of BLU spells.

Really, Ninja should get Ni spells and San spells for pretty much every single spell, because not only are enfeebles barely used in endgame play anymore outside of proccing anyway, Ninja's existing Ni spells actually get outdone by tier one white magic equivalents (Slow 1 caps higher than Hojo: Ni etc). The only spell that should not get higher levels without some balance considerations is Migawari, since it's one of the only Ninjutsu spells worth using outside of Utsusemi.

If the pattern continued and Hojo: San ended up being 25% slow (compared to Ichi's ~15% and Ni's ~20%), it'd still be outdone by slow 1 which caps at ~30%, even though it requires an absurd amount of MND (which any good WHM or RDM would have a build for anyway). It certainly would be nothing compared to a 5/5 slow II which caps at 39%. The same can be said for Jubaku VS Paralyze, Kurayami VS Blind.

Extra tiers of Yurin would not be unbalanced because Penance is 25%, whereas Yurin is 10%. Even a San level would assumedly be 20% which is still weaker than Penance.

Aisha sucks.

Also, if there's going to be adjustments to ninjutsu...extend Kakka and Myoshu to 15 minutes and maybe I'll bother casting them.

He does use it. I did further research and on the talk page someone does state that he does use Utsusemi: San as well. I agree with your enhancements to the NIN spells though. Here is my reference to another's testimony: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aht_Urhgan_Mission_35:_Legacy_of_the_Lost#Testimonials

To save you time: (This is the testimony I read): Its easier than that. They despawn after 20 seconds. They share their initial target with the original, but hate is not linked. Its quite easy for a redmage to diaga and kite them. We only ever saw 4 replicas at any one time; he can use Utsu: San, ranged attacks and most Ninjutsu. --Overdrive Bismark 19:53, 5 June 2007 (CDT)

[Kincard]

I'm sure I sound like a dick saying this, but talk pages (Hell, the main pages...) on FFXIclopedia are pretty notorious for having massive amounts of misinformation. The only thing I can ask for is pictures or it didn't happen, because out of all the times I've helped people fight Gessho, I've never seen him use anything above Utsusemi: Ni. They did use the Utsusemi: San animation for the last (second to last?) Genkai quest, presumably to mock us, but other than that that animation has sat in the game files and collected dust.

I mean, it's possible he uses it, I just think it'd be weird that that single fight would have that spell around but not any other monster in the game. I always assumed they kept it out of the actual game because they didn't want to set any spell parameters (# of shadows) for it yet.


It'll be funny when nin have para III and rdm doesn't.

Not like it'd matter. Paralyze 1 would probably still be more potent, and both RDM and NIN will still be bench warmers.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Back on an old character I used to have [Utsusemi: San] as an auto translate that a nabbed out of some random bazaar comment, but at some point it vanished. I always wondered where it had come from.

[Camate]

Greetings ninjas!

I spoke with the development team about the secrets of ninjutsu and brought up your questions. Unfortunately there are no plans at the moment to implement Utsusemi San or add a San tier for every ninjustu that ninjas have access to at level 99. One reason for the latter is that some effects were created on the basis that there would only be an Ichi version of the ninjutsu. They don't want you to feel that ninjutsu that only have Ichi/Ni are incomplete and would like you to understand that at they have been adjusted so that they can elicit good effects for the current state of the game.

[Lollerblades]

Oh well, at least we can still go Boom ...

[Cowardlybabooon]

They gave us an extra shadow on both Ichi and Ni with the AF3+2 boots. San would just be broken lol.

[Nala]

Not really everything spams AoE tp moves that 1 shot hit full up turtle builds. It'd just make soloing on nin vs irrelevant stuff that much easier.

That said thought nin mobs in dyna used to use utsu san.

[Kari]

I'd mostly just like to see Ni/San versions of the newer skills.
Just because the cast time on Ichi spells is way too long. You lose so much DPS casting Ichis, that most of the time I'd rather not have the buff. [For the new-ish spells]

[Severence]

Honestly: I've always said should get a Dispel and regen scrolls to help more with soloing instead of HAVING to /dnc to solo things. I'm not asking for a Ni or San of every spell, really. Just some of them. Utsusemi: San would be nice just because of the massive amount of mobs that like to wipe shadows. A just in case quick shadows would be nice. Some that could be Ni'd: The sneak scroll that which name escapes me right now. I wanna say Monomi. Jubaku as well.

Also back to my latter reply. The reason I stated him using San was because I witnessed him using it myself when I fought him way before Abyssea was ever even implemented.

And finally. Yay on my first dev reply. Take care guys. Wish Busted.

[Nala]

They should reduce all Ichi spells casting time down to Ni delay like they did with monomi a few years ago.

[Kincard]

They should reduce all Ichi spells casting time down to Ni delay like they did with monomi a few years ago.

Yes, if we can't have the Ni/San spells, at least do this for every single spell except Utsusemi and Migawari if you feel that its integral to the cost/benefit of those spells. All the other buff spells become completely worthless simply because of their cast times. Even amongst JAs there's some that are seen as not worth using to interrupt your attack rounds, this problem is worse with spells, let alone one that takes 3 seconds to cast even assuming the Ninja is stacking every possible fast cast gear available to them.

Also, Myoshu runs up against the subtle blow cap too easily with Ninja's base subtle blow, an increase of the cap on that trait to 75% or even 90% would be greatly appreciated.

I'm not sure why I'm even bothering though, the dev post is yet another one of those "we'll just pretend the people that already preempted the reasons we'll give and gave counterarguments to them and continue saying 'no' without even bothering to follow the conversation" posts.

[SNK]

Greetings ninjas!

I spoke with the development team about the secrets of ninjutsu and brought up your questions. Unfortunately there are no plans at the moment to implement Utsusemi San or add a San tier for every ninjustu that ninjas have access to at level 99. One reason for the latter is that some effects were created on the basis that there would only be an Ichi version of the ninjutsu. They don't want you to feel that ninjutsu that only have Ichi/Ni are incomplete and would like you to understand that at they have been adjusted so that they can elicit good effects for the current state of the game.

I wish I'd seen this sooner but I do have a request which I hope wouldn't seem to broken. What about Jubaku: Ni? I always thought it strange as we progressed from 75 to 99 that NIN never got access to that spell since we had Hojo and Kurayami Ni.

[Kincard]

As nice as Jubaku: Ni would be, how useful would it actually be? It'd just fill a gap that's been missing but it actually wouldn't get that much use at all. A shorter-cast Kakka, Myoshu, Yurin and a upgraded subtle blow cap would all see more use than Jubaku: Ni would, especially that first one.

Frankly I'm okay with not getting any more Ninjutsu if they would instead actually fix the job. Ninja is so far behind every other job in pretty much any role bar abyssea (Where everyone is super powerful anyway) it confuses me that there hasn't been a peep about it yet.

Make dual wield exist outside delay cap? I dunno. I'm pretty sure that'd fix the job (And make DNC broken) instantly.

[Nala]

In all honesty its more about rebalancing 1h jobs 2h's have a huge advantage against anything high def/vit

[Kincard]

Even ignoring that, NIN is outclassed by THF and DNC on its own turf (Dual Wielding), which just strikes me as confusing. THFs and DNCs get better JAs and better traits. Look at what NIN is missing compared to those two:

1. Several useful traits (Acc bonus, crit dam bonus, hell, eva bonus)
2. Powerful DPS JAs (Sneak/trick attack, reverse/building/wild flourish)
3. No strong weapon skill. Hi, as strong as it is inside Abyssea, is pretty derp outside. It's definately weaker than Exenterator, Rudra's Storm, Mercy Stroke or Chant Du Cygne.

While you may want to counter that with "NIN can debuff and tank!", that doesn't really hold much water because a DNC can also debuff and tank the same mid-level targets with Fan Dance relatively well. Not to mention the solid Cures and Stuns. NIN is also pretty severely limited by its gear choice. In its pursuit of lowering delay as much as possible, NIN loses out on a massive amount of DEX that DNC, THF, and BLU all get along with their Haste.

Out of these three jobs the heirarchy would make more sense as THF bein the top DPS (Since that's basically their only function outside of TH), with NIN and DNC about equal. Instead you have DNC leading the DPS (well, depends on the target I guess) with THF in second and NIN in a very distant third.

[Vold]

Well I guess at this point my desire is far stronger to see a return to an unnerfed nin sub(4 shadows instead of 3)than seeing San added. I also now presume that nin +2 emp feet were their way of giving us our San without a scroll. I can live with that. Now let's deal with that /nin issue that is no longer an issue due to the state of the game, not to mention nin +2 feet that anyone really can obtain...

[Raksha]

I'll trade you Rudra's for that 4th ni shadow.

[noirin]

If my LS Leader is one to believe, i recall at some point in this game's life, Jubaku:Ni and Utsu: San were Nin merits.Though i'd have to take his word for it considering i haven't been around for the decade he has been.

[Kincard]

I'll trade you Rudra's for that 4th ni shadow.

I'll just take the DEX mod and keep Hi, also give me crit damage bonus and we'll call it a deal! :rolleyes:


If my LS Leader is one to believe, i recall at some point in this game's life, Jubaku:Ni and Utsu: San were Nin merits.Though i'd have to take his word for it considering i haven't been around for the decade he has been.

Nope. None of the job-specific merits have ever been completely changed. Pretty much the only significant adjustments they've had since their creation are those adjustments we got a couple months back. For NIN, it's always been the San elementals, Sange, and NTE.

The Ninjutsu damage adjustments they made made the San spells fun to play with, but they're still worthless outside Abyssea. Even inside Abyssea they're more of a gil-tossing gimmick than anything.

That's another thing. Every single NIN merit is completely worthless. The only ones that are actually useful have zero effect on the Ninja's output (Subtle Blow, NTE).

I mean, it's clear what SE wants NIN to be- they want them to be a job that can adapt to basically any situation. On paper, it sounds great- we can do moderate melee DPS, and switch on the fly instantly to deal ranged damage or magic damage as the situation calls for. Sounds like a dream job VS all those monsters that have special defense shields. Of course, we all know what problems with both those are.

The way I see it, SE has two choices:
1. Buff Ninja's melee DPS and more or less completely drop the ranged/magic aspects of the class. This is the easiest route.
2. In order to fulfill the hybrid class vision SE has for NIN, the following things have to happen:
-Buff Ninja's ranged and magic damage by a significant amount. See related thread about Sange and Elemental Ninjutsus. They seriously need to be doing like 10x more damage than they do right now to be worth it at all. Change elemental Ninjutsus so that they inflict elemental def down instead of just resist down.
-Broaden, I mean really, really broaden, a Ninja's spell repertoire, so that their spellcasting abilities may carry some relevance in high-tier endgame. In these cases NIN will shift completely into a support role and backup tank. Key spells would include higher level Aisha and Yurin, A Dispel and Stun Ninjutsu, a Plague Ninjutsu (Complements the whole subtle blow aspect anyway), self-buff Critical Hit Rate+, spell of one of the following: DEF down, Crit DEF down, Crit Eva Down. A Diffusion-like ability, and a massive amount of Ninjutsu skill gear/inherent magic accuracy in Ninjutsu spells.

[Mayoyama]

Also, Myoshu runs up against the subtle blow cap too easily with Ninja's base subtle blow, an increase of the cap on that trait to 75% or even 90% would be greatly appreciated..

I brought this up ages ago, in the Producer Matsui (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26797-Let-Producer-Matsui-Know-How-He-Should-Catch-Up-on-2-Years!?p=356324#post356324) thread when I asked for kikoku and lolNagi to be revised. But who knows whether the ideas were taken aboard or not.

Only time will tell....

[Babekeke]

I'll trade you Rudra's for that 4th ni shadow.

Why would NIN want Rudra's? It sucks if you can't force it to crit (which NIN can't unless you're ... /THF).

And to the person who said Exenterator beats all Katana WS, they'll probably find that the same applies. Force crit only. But, seeing as NIN can use Exenterator, it's a non-issue anyway. And you can use Aluh Jambiya^^

[Kincard]

Yeah, I mentioned that the biggest game-changer was JAs, IE SATA for THF and Wild Flourish from DNCs.

Rudra's Storm probably wouldn't be any good on NIN but outside Abyssea Exenterator will probably beat Blade: Hi or Blade: Shun quite often. And telling me to use Aluh Jambiya obviously doesn't work because despite Dagger being NIN's second highest weapon skill, it's still a C skill and you lose massive amounts of acc/attack switching to a dagger:

Blade: Hi 4.0 fTP Crit, 60% AGI
Blade: Shun 0.6875 (+0.2) fTP Five Hits, Attack penalty, 100% DEX
Exenterator: 1.0 Four Hits, 100% AGI

For me, Hi generally beats Shun outside Abyssea on average despite having some really bad pits due to misses. Shun's big dealbreaker is the attack penalty. It's disadvantage VS Exenterator is also that wearing Gorget/Belt means missing out on two slots that you've could've stacked more dStat in, and Exenterator actually adds a really nice add effect on top of doing lots of damage (Dear SE: Make Blade: Kamu more like Exenterator).

Ultimately, yeah, you're right that Exenterator isn't a huge boon over Hi or Shun when directly compared, but I guess I was more disappointed that Shun serves no real purpose to a NIN with Kannagi, whereas Exenterator is bar none the best unstacked WS a THF can do unless they're in Abyssea.

[Babekeke]

Ultimately, yeah, you're right that Exenterator isn't a huge boon over Hi or Shun when directly compared, but I guess I was more disappointed that Shun serves no real purpose to a NIN with Kannagi, whereas Exenterator is bar none the best unstacked WS a THF can do unless they're in Abyssea.

Maybe it's due to my gear, but I find DE to be on par with Exen. Usually I'll use Exen for the acc down though, and DE if a mob needs another WS to kill it.

[lllen]

Lol, heard they were giving us a bigger "Boom". All it's used for is travel, or weaken and rr fighting an NM. So does that mean we can get back to Jeuno faster?

[Areayea]

if we're gonna talk about utsu san... we HAVE to talk about Dokumori: Ni, Jubaku: Ni, and the other enfeeble's San, it hardly makes any sense that dyna mobs (mobs like 15 lvls below use) can use those enfeebles, and we can't O.o

[Zerowin]

I agree with Areayea, we should try to get the rest of Ni ninjustu, before we can even think about a San spell.

[Darwena]

I always said SE should give ninja the Ni tier spell. Having better debuff (Ni) would greatly help us w/o affecting the so beloved balance in the game.

[Zerowin]

Well maybe they can take some time while they are adding our Ni spells and maybe rebalance it.

[Kuroganashi]

They should Lower the CAST / RECAST time for Ichi / Ni spells but also on top of that Increase the Duration of the spells. when we need to recast Kaka / Myoshu every time we gonna fight a NM in Skirmish , it gets QUITE annoying and slows down the DPS

also, Having Utsesumi:San would only be nice if the Recast would be in Agreement with ichi and ni , Can't have SAN if our Ichi / ni are Slow Recast

NIN does need a better DPS , as it is of now 10-28-2014 NIN Is Really good DD But still not same as a MNK for DPS.

A Smart / Good NIN can get close to DPS of a MNK by doing Skillchains however The Fact that they need to constantly stop to cast Kakka / Myoshu slows down DPS by alot, on top of that, Their WS DMG Needs to get a boost. MNK Victory Smite been doing 5~8 K in Skirm wherre NIN been only doing 3~4 K :(

Can't compare a MNK to a NIN , I know however to keep DPS of a DD they should at least make sure NIN Has better CRIT+ so WS always do a lil more DMG (to help them keep hate as well as help PT out)

Alot of NIN nowdays forget that they can ENFEEBLE mob too. Kurayami , Hojo , Jubaku , Aisha (it sucks but helps) , Yurin

For a NIN to be able to DPS well, it needs MARCH x2 HASTE (or HASTE II) and HASTE SAMBA ><

It is EXTREMELY Ridiculous >< the possibility of all those spells being on is VERY LOW (with the way ppl play their jobs nowdays.....)

They should definally give nin a DPS boost ^^


Oh also add some spells such as: Jubaku : NI , Monomi : NI , Yurin : NI , Aisha : NI , KAKKA : NI , Myoshu: Ni

Utsesumi : SAN giving 5 shadows (With EMP FEET+2 = 6) would be weird and throw off Balance the Ichi/ni Making ppl use only NI / SAN , I think that is why SE won't give us that spell......

Like some mobs can do "Stonega IV" even tho BLM never got it >.>

It is SE way to say "We are SUPERIOR to you all"

Either way, I say we keep NIN ALIVE !!!!!!

More ppl that post = more likelihood that they update NIN for the better


OMG DAKEN <3 (AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!)

they do need to do a lil more tweaking on it tho, making it do more DMG and maybe adding new Shurikens with
"ADDITIONAL EFFECT" (Idk.... make it do Slow or Paralyze)

Be nice to have a Paralyze Shuriken (OMG like Relic Katana 119) :P Paralyze V (yes, plz !)

OH an idea just pop'd into my head too..........

Ninjutsu that is SELF TARGET: En-PARALYZE / EN-SLOW / EN-SILENCE / EN-BLIND / EN-ATK down / EN-DEF Down


IDK <.......> Just a stupid idea maybe but shit......... may not be so bad of an idea :D

NIN is an AMAZING JOB , just that ppl don't know how to play or don't see how amazing it is.


DUAL WIELD + HASTE CAP = Hundread FIST 24/7 + MARCH x2 + HASTE or HASTE II + HASTE SAMBA = Beyond Hundread Fist !!!!!!!!!!!

Really brings DPS up from Amazing ~> GODLY !!!!!!!!


Well, I gonna stop and let these ideas SINK down ;)

Peace.............. :D