Buff Other Support jobs [Archive] - FINAL FANTASY XI Forum

Kaup

10-30-2012, 11:58 PM

Regain Ill agree with but March, eh. So far as I know using AMarch+VMarch(Marcato)=Magic Haste Cap with BRD alone so long as you have the gear, which seems about how it should be in my opinion. With another song it would probably be to easy to hit magic haste cap, which also lowers the value of Gjallarhorn.

Yes, but if you had a regain song, most BRDs would only be able to give just 1 march then. Ghorn would have the same issue. Only a Dharp BRD would be able to use the old marches + regain then.

Not that BRD really needs any help really, it is a strong support job regardless.

Demon6324236

10-31-2012, 01:10 AM

I thought you could use the Emp Harp for 2 of the songs and the Relic Horn for the other 2, unless I am mistaken.

Kaup

10-31-2012, 01:20 AM

I thought you could use the Emp Harp for 2 of the songs and the Relic Horn for the other 2, unless I am mistaken.
That would still make them a Dharp BRD now wouldn't it?

Demon6324236

10-31-2012, 01:29 AM

Yes but it wouldn't lower the effect of the Horn. If they added a new march then people could simply make a Dharp & cap magic haste as well as give Regain without ever making the Horn, but without a new march, a BRD would need both to make full effect of them both, so that neither item loses its benefits.

Kaup

10-31-2012, 02:35 AM

Demon6324236

10-31-2012, 02:52 AM

Ok, you just lost me, if were not counting in the Regain song that was suggested, why did we need an Emp Harp in the 1st place!? @_@

Afania

11-05-2012, 07:46 AM

I think a spell like Regain. 10 ticks w/ max enhancing for rdm would do wonders. Add regain brd songs, and buff the attack speed, attack, and defense songs on bard.

No!

Regain is COR only ;)

Also BRD is already king of buff job after embrava nerf with march, and still giving them regain? Where's the balance.

hiko

11-06-2012, 01:45 AM

No!

Regain is COR only ;)

sch have regain, will still have regain after embrava nerf

lol 1TP tick but still regain

Camate

11-07-2012, 03:47 AM

Greetings everyone!

I have a couple responses from the development team in regards to your feedback. :)

I think a spell like Regain. 10 ticks w/ max enhancing for rdm would do wonders.

This might be possible, but in order to avoid another situation like Embrava it would require some thinking to implement it properly. While nothing has been decided as of yet, we’d like to add Haste II in this case.

At the very least, Bard needs another tier of March and a Regain song.

We are planning to add a higher tier March in the future. However, this is a ways off, and this would be a song that not everyone would be able to get.

As for a Regain song, we do not have any plans of implementing one.

Zagen

11-07-2012, 04:29 AM

This might be possible, but in order to avoid another situation like Embrava it would require some thinking to implement it properly. While nothing has been decided as of yet, we’d like to add Haste II in this case.

Yup regain alone is why Embrava was broken... Do the devs honestly think that was the sole reason it is overpowered and used to combat their idea of good game design?

Luvbunny

11-07-2012, 04:42 AM

I am sensing sam sub being abused for tp regain. Basically they dont want you to be able to perform WS over and over, yet they make sure the mob kill you instantly. As for Haste II for RDM, not sure if they want to be invited for haste only similar to what RDM was used for during ToAU merit party, haste and refresh monkey. We already have regain spell, Sch has it, focus on buffing that one, make it up to 3TP gained at 400 enhancing magic, problem solved. Stop avoiding the issue here. Adjust the battle design not the way people are using the spells and job ability, which is working as intended. TO WIN.

Phogg

11-07-2012, 04:48 AM

We are planning to add a higher tier March in the future. However, this is a ways off, and this would be a song that not everyone would be able to get.

Then why bother? What is with this fascination of the developers to make things so unattainable to most people? Just to piss most people off? Ridiculous.

Creelo

11-07-2012, 04:59 AM

Regain Ill agree with but March, eh. So far as I know using AMarch+VMarch(Marcato)=Magic Haste Cap with BRD alone so long as you have the gear, which seems about how it should be in my opinion. With another song it would probably be to easy to hit magic haste cap, which also lowers the value of Gjallarhorn.

Just want to poke head in and say that AMarch + Marcato'd VMarch don't cap magic Haste, even with 99 Gjallarhorn. It's actually 3-4% shy of the cap (408/1024 Haste, as opposed to cap of 448/1024).

Also, as long as Daurdabla songs are up, you can overwrite them with Gjallarhorn; only the first casts of the 1-2 extra songs with Daurdabla need be cast with Daurdabla.

Creelo

11-07-2012, 05:01 AM

Just want to poke head in and say that AMarch + Marcato'd VMarch don't cap magic Haste, even with 99 Gjallarhorn. It's actually 3-4% shy of the cap (408/1024 Haste, as opposed to cap of 448/1024).

Also, as long as Daurdabla songs are up, you can overwrite them with Gjallarhorn; only the first casts of the 1-2 extra songs with Daurdabla need be cast with Daurdabla.

Edit: Would just like to add that I'm annoyed with how I've been asking what the hell was up with the new March animation found in the dats ages ago in the Bard Job forums, and it wasn't until now that a response was actually given. :/

Edit 2: Whoops, I didn't properly edit last post, sorry! x.x

Snprphnx

11-07-2012, 05:01 AM

Greetings everyone!

I have a couple responses from the development team in regards to your feedback. :)

This might be possible, but in order to avoid another situation like Embrava it would require some thinking to implement it properly. While nothing has been decided as of yet, we’d like to add Haste II in this case.

We are planning to add a higher tier March in the future. However, this is a ways off, and this would be a song that not everyone would be able to get.

As for a Regain song, we do not have any plans of implementing one.

how about adding in some form of Snapshot spell or song

Ryce

11-07-2012, 05:03 AM

A RDM regain spell sounds good to me. It's not gonna be 10TP/tic, but 2TP... maybe up to 4 with some exclusive gear? This doesn't mean they cannot refine what Scholars can do, but if RDM is resigned to the "do everything but nothing well" role, then it should have a form of regain.

Byrth

11-07-2012, 05:09 AM

I'd bet the Regain spell would be Scholar exclusive (given Adloquium). Red Mage would get Haste II exclusive. Bard would get Champion's March. These would be the Meteors and Arises for the respective jobs.

For mages that leaves Summoner (Cait Sith/Atomos?) and Blue Mage (new HNM spells?).

Afania

11-07-2012, 05:24 AM

Then why bother? What is with this fascination of the developers to make things so unattainable to most people? Just to piss most people off? Ridiculous.

So by that extend all DD gears/relic/empy/mythic should be obtainable by everyone right?

What's wrong with certain gear/spell not everyone can get? They didn't even say "most" player can't get it, only said "not everyone" can get it. There isn't anything wrong that hardcore, dedicated BRD stands out and performs better than a bandwagon BRD who lv the job and sing half naked.

Hashmalum

11-07-2012, 05:59 AM

This might be possible, but in order to avoid another situation like Embrava it would require some thinking to implement it properly. While nothing has been decided as of yet, we’d like to add Haste II in this case.I'd honestly rather have some decent monster special move affecting enfeebles instead. There's nothing as dull as being invited for one single spell. Even worse when it goes and gets nerfed, or just made obsolete.

We are planning to add a higher tier March in the future. However, this is a ways off, and this would be a song that not everyone would be able to get.So does this mean "category 3 merits", or does this mean "equipment-specific ability", or "we haven't even decided that yet, that's why it's so far in the future"?

Dragoy

11-07-2012, 07:03 AM

Edit: Would just like to add that I'm annoyed with how I've been asking what the hell was up with the new March animation found in the dats ages ago in the Bard Job forums, and it wasn't until now that a response was actually given. :/

Edit 2: Whoops, I didn't properly edit last post, sorry! x.x

Yeah, I wonder why! I bet “Data Mining” being a violation of the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement wouldn't have anything to do with that. ^^;

Not being a smarty one, just saying that I can't imagine someone seriously expecting information on something that has been discovered in such a way... heh!

ANYblue!

We are planning to add a higher tier March in the future. However, this is a ways off, and this would be a song that not everyone would be able to get.

As for a Regain song, we do not have any plans of implementing one.

While I sort of understand, I don't understand.
Understand?

It's fine if it means it can't be purchased from the next corner-shop, but items that are outright not obtainable, do not make the game more fun or challenging. Carrot and a stick? No thank you, not that kind of a carrot.

まーまーまー

Mayoyama

11-07-2012, 07:22 AM

Hey Camate :)

While we are on the topic of songs for BRD... whatever happened to the positive responses you posted from the dev team about Massacre Elegy being given to players (potentially as a gjallarhorn only song)?

Topic was quite a while ago (08-13-2011 06:27 AM) http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12312-Bard-Job-Manifesto?p=168159&viewfull=1#post168159

Howdy! Here's some love for bards :)

Will Massacre Elegy be added? We have plans to. However, when considering the stats, we are planning to make it so this isn’t a song that can be used by just anyone.

Could the dev team also consider some of the following for brd songs?
Snapshot
Magic attack
Fast cast
Something for pets (pet regen/haste/att/def/etc?)
New tier of Hymnus (Reraise 2 or 3 (can share timer with current Hymnus)
BRD equivalent of Arise (if person dies, the get up and have reraise status)

I dont believe the BRD arise would be too overly powered.. considering you'd be giving up a chunk of potential dmg for it (and could maybe put it on the 99 darubala?), and would be useful in those "mob is going to one shot us with every goddamn tp move" moments.

I understand that the buffs may not be as strong as cor rolls due to cast/recast times of songs vs phantom rolls but would be nice to expand BRD's versatility a bit. As it stands, BRD has no useful buffs to help certain jobs (like mages in aby or voidwatch.... or bsts in general lol. And other than maybe AGI/prelude nothing decent for rng either)

Sasaraixx

11-07-2012, 07:39 AM

This might be possible, but in order to avoid another situation like Embrava it would require some thinking to implement it properly. While nothing has been decided as of yet, we’d like to add Haste II in this case.

Camate, could you please remind the Dev Team that we already have Aldoquium and we have been asking for an increase to 2TP ever since it was released.

Fynlar

11-07-2012, 07:52 AM

a song that not everyone would be able to get

Please don't do this again.

Raksha

11-07-2012, 08:06 AM

Camate, could you please remind the Dev Team that we already have Aldoquium and we have been asking for an increase to 2TP ever since it was released.

I second this motion.

Tennotsukai

11-07-2012, 08:10 AM

Creelo

11-07-2012, 09:14 AM

Yeah, I wonder why! I bet “Data Mining” being a violation of the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement wouldn't have anything to do with that. ^^;

Not being a smarty one, just saying that I can't imagine someone seriously expecting information on something that has been discovered in such a way... heh!

ANYblue!

Personally, I don't have a clue how to dat mine, but others do and post their findings. If you read any other FFXI forum, you'll see dat mining's being published, notably after updates. SE has to be well aware of this. In any case, a youtube video was posted in October of last year that contained what appeared to be an animation for Tier III March, among other interesting things (this was back in the time of Meteor/Arise being announced, etc.)

Basically, I'm just annoyed that it took over a year to get any kind of response regarding an inquiry into this. And then to get a response saying that March III is being planned on implemented but...

However, this is a ways off,

It's terribly unspecific, just like they said with Massacre Elegy ages ago. As players that pay by the month for FFXI, we deserve to be given more precise dates and information on content that will eventually be produced for it.

Crimson_Slasher

11-07-2012, 11:11 AM

They also planned to make light arts allow regen to be casted on alliance parties...soooo yeaaaaah... and remember the spell to remove charm?

Phogg

11-07-2012, 04:49 PM

So by that extend all DD gears/relic/empy/mythic should be obtainable by everyone right?

What's wrong with certain gear/spell not everyone can get? They didn't even say "most" player can't get it, only said "not everyone" can get it. There isn't anything wrong that hardcore, dedicated BRD stands out and performs better than a bandwagon BRD who lv the job and sing half naked.

Putting aside the fact that all those empy/relic blah blah items actually are obtainable by everyone through varying degrees of effort which is calculable beyond random chance.....

How exactly does bashing your head against the same wall repeatedly hoping that today might be your lucky day reflect in any way your dedication to any job in this game? What a ridiculous thought. My corsair who's only existence is to attempt to get gear from VW for my thief and yet never has any "luck" with any relevant gear regardless of the time consumed and effort put forth would like a word.

I like fun in my video games, not arbitrary barriers.

Unless Camate is misrepresenting the plan, suggesting "not everyone" stinks a lot of arbitrary randomness, not dedication.

Tanama

11-07-2012, 05:21 PM

When the dev team says a spell, ability, etc. is way off, I am betting they are saving a lot of those savory things we've wanted for Seekers of Adoulin.

Kitkat

11-08-2012, 12:08 AM

I think a spell like Regain. 10 ticks w/ max enhancing for rdm would do wonders. Add regain brd songs, and buff the attack speed, attack, and defense songs on bard.

Don't necessarily agree with the potency of this spell, and also due tot he fact that Sch (a tactition based AoE enhancing job) already has a regain spell that should have an increasing tp/tick based on enhancing skill anyway instead of a independent 1tp/tick no matter what spell. While I can agree that rdm needs its own fixes, I don't think it should be trampling on a job that already has a version of the spell in its arsenal...after all...this is one of the ways they destroyed rdm in the first place.

Regain Ill agree with but March, eh. So far as I know using AMarch+VMarch(Marcato)=Magic Haste Cap with BRD alone so long as you have the gear, which seems about how it should be in my opinion. With another song it would probably be to easy to hit magic haste cap, which also lowers the value of Gjallarhorn.

I believe the point behind this is to give brds the option to use haste + another song instead of double haste songs as the effect would be more potent then the prior two.

Ophannus

11-08-2012, 01:13 AM

If Haste II becomes a reality please make it RDM only.
Also if it's not too much to ask can RDM receive the spell "Quick"? The effect would be it grants Quicken effect to boost movement speed. Since BRD COR and SMN all have Movement Speed+ rolls,songs and bloodpacts:wards, I don't see why RDM can't have a White Magic version of enhanced movement speed.

Mirage

11-08-2012, 01:39 AM

Shouldn't quick rather add a high chance of instant-cast for spells for a period of time, or set number of spells?

I also think Haste 2 should be RDM exclusive. I also think it should be accessionable, or at the very least, make Haste 1 accessionable while Haste 2 wasn't.

Perhaps Haste 2 + March 3 should cap magical haste, while March 3 + March 2 didn't quite make it. That would allow bards to replace a march with some other song whenever a RDM was in the group, which could increase the demand for RDMs.

Also, if Haste 2 becomes a reality, don't forget Hastega 2 for Garuda!

sweetidealism

11-08-2012, 04:44 AM

As for Haste II for RDM, not sure if they want to be invited for haste only similar to what RDM was used for during ToAU merit party, haste and refresh monkey.

Yes, actually, we do. Any sort of excuse to get into a party is a good one. We were always able to do tons of other helpful things between casting Refresh and Haste, but in order to contribute most of those things, we need to be in the alliance first.

Dragoy

11-09-2012, 03:48 AM

Personally, I don't have a clue how to dat mine, but others do and post their findings. If you read any other FFXI forum, you'll see dat mining's being published, notably after updates. SE has to be well aware of this. In any case, a youtube video was posted in October of last year that contained what appeared to be an animation for Tier III March, among other interesting things (this was back in the time of Meteor/Arise being announced, etc.)

Yeah, it has been going on forever, they know about it, and it has been and is being discussed around here as well without them doing anything about it, fancy that.

My point is that I'm not surprised they have not been responding to information acquired that way. That's all. ^^

On another note, Haste II does seem interesting... Too bad I haven't really played Red Mage since 75 or so, since I tend to do everything I do more efficiently on other jobs. :\

Zagen

11-09-2012, 03:51 AM

My point is that I'm not surprised they have not been responding to information acquired that way. That's all. ^^

Doing so implies that they approve the use of 3rd party tools as those are the only way to do it. Silence without removing talk of it on the official forums however implies the same thing but I don't think they see it that way.

Demon6324236

11-10-2012, 04:09 PM

So by that extend all DD gears/relic/empy/mythic should be obtainable by everyone right?

What's wrong with certain gear/spell not everyone can get? They didn't even say "most" player can't get it, only said "not everyone" can get it. There isn't anything wrong that hardcore, dedicated BRD stands out and performs better than a bandwagon BRD who lv the job and sing half naked.People who gear their jobs properly already out perform those who do not. A Relic or Emp BRD will surpass a half naked gimp BRD by far, the same goes for if the BRD has the proper gear for each song, and if the BRD has the gear for debuffing. All jobs are like this for the most part, if you gear it well it will do better than anyone who is gimply gearing it, you showing your a good player for a job should not come down to you having a rare spell or something similar that people often don't have. Just because a BLM has Meteor, doesn't mean its a good BLM, and just because a BLM doesn't have Meteor, doesn't mean they are a bad BLM.

Mirage

11-10-2012, 09:12 PM

Yes. While it is true that there should be some differences between the really good bards/othersupportjobs, there is plenty of room for this through gear. Even with the same songs, a daurd/gjallar BRD is going to outperform a BRD without those by a very significant margin. There's no need to further divide the gap by adding exclusive songs as well.

Protey

11-11-2012, 01:24 AM

i think they should make Haste2 and March3 obtainable through some epic quests. Not luck based. When I say epic, I mean very time consuming with a profound storyline, and make it an ex scroll so can't be sold. That way only the most devoted of BRD or RDM will obtain it and you will be guaranteed to get it if you put the time into it (vice VW drops where it is not guaranteed). Plus... quests are fun!

Mirage

11-11-2012, 01:27 AM

I'd rather have that than 0.1% drops from 18-man events.

Camiie

11-14-2012, 09:19 PM

So by that extend all DD gears/relic/empy/mythic should be obtainable by everyone right?

Here we go with the "They might as well just mail everyone mythics if they don't make items with sub-1% drop rates in battles that only 1% of the players can win 15% of the time."

What's wrong with certain gear/spell not everyone can get?

Gear is one thing. When they start making spells that everyone will be expected to have, but not everyone will be able to obtain, then they've taken exclusivity too far IMO.

They didn't even say "most" player can't get it, only said "not everyone" can get it.

You know darn well what they mean. They've used this terminology before and we see what it's led to.

There isn't anything wrong that hardcore, dedicated BRD stands out and performs better than a bandwagon BRD who lv the job and sing half naked.

That's a very extreme comparison. No one is talking about half-naked BRDs compared to well-geared BRDs. This new tier of March will lead to perfectly deserving BRDs being left out in the cold for no other reason than they don't have the spell. This isn't like Meteor or Arise where no one will really care. March is part of a BRD's bread and butter.

Afania

11-15-2012, 07:23 PM

Here we go with the "They might as well just mail everyone mythics if they don't make items with sub-1% drop rates in battles that only 1% of the players can win 15% of the time."

Gear is one thing. When they start making spells that everyone will be expected to have, but not everyone will be able to obtain, then they've taken exclusivity too far IMO.

You know darn well what they mean. They've used this terminology before and we see what it's led to.

That's a very extreme comparison. No one is talking about half-naked BRDs compared to well-geared BRDs. This new tier of March will lead to perfectly deserving BRDs being left out in the cold for no other reason than they don't have the spell. This isn't like Meteor or Arise where no one will really care. March is part of a BRD's bread and butter.

So if Meteor/Arise nobody really care, why piss off if not everyone has it?

Newer march will likely save extra song slot, so in the end it's gonna perform the same as empy/relic BRD. Whether it's expected to have or not is depend on the percentage of ppl that has it, like every other gears. DDs are expected to have relic/empy is because many ppl has it too.

Honestly, I see no difference between "not everyone can get" weapons and "not everyone can get" spells.

People who gear their jobs properly already out perform those who do not. A Relic or Emp BRD will surpass a half naked gimp BRD by far, the same goes for if the BRD has the proper gear for each song, and if the BRD has the gear for debuffing. All jobs are like this for the most part, if you gear it well it will do better than anyone who is gimply gearing it, you showing your a good player for a job should not come down to you having a rare spell or something similar that people often don't have. Just because a BLM has Meteor, doesn't mean its a good BLM, and just because a BLM doesn't have Meteor, doesn't mean they are a bad BLM.

Meteor doesn't make a difference for BLM's performance because currently there are no optimal strategy that involved meteor BLMs. Like how there are situational gears that's pretty much useless to have too....I can argue that a Rag DRK with no apoc isn't bad compare with another rag+apoc DRK in current endgame event too. Honestly I see no difference between a rare and useful spell and a rare and useful gear.

Afania

11-15-2012, 07:27 PM

Putting aside the fact that all those empy/relic blah blah items actually are obtainable by everyone through varying degrees of effort which is calculable beyond random chance.....

How exactly does bashing your head against the same wall repeatedly hoping that today might be your lucky day reflect in any way your dedication to any job in this game? What a ridiculous thought. My corsair who's only existence is to attempt to get gear from VW for my thief and yet never has any "luck" with any relevant gear regardless of the time consumed and effort put forth would like a word.

I like fun in my video games, not arbitrary barriers.

Unless Camate is misrepresenting the plan, suggesting "not everyone" stinks a lot of arbitrary randomness, not dedication.

Every rare spell currently exists is just as obtainable, if not more obtainable than any relic/empy. Try again.

Math: Relic costs 110M on my server, Meteor/Arise, the spell that made BLMs and WHMs cried only cost less than 11M. Every other spells are cheaper than that. Relic is 10 times more expensive and you argue that relic is obtainable with effort, while spells are not? If you can afford a relic, you can afford 10 meteor/arise.

Camiie

11-15-2012, 09:10 PM

So if Meteor/Arise nobody really care, why piss off if not everyone has it?

I already told you. Those spells don't matter because they aren't perceived as necessary for basic functionality. March will be. Players will expect every BRD to have it, no matter how unrealistic that expectation is.

Newer march will likely save extra song slot, so in the end it's gonna perform the same as empy/relic BRD. Whether it's expected to have or not is depend on the percentage of ppl that has it, like every other gears. DDs are expected to have relic/empy is because many ppl has it too.

No it's not going to be based on how many people have it. It's going to be based on how effective the song is calculated to be.

Honestly, I see no difference between "not everyone can get" weapons and "not everyone can get" spells.

What can I say other than I think it's a step too far? It's a philosophy I disagree with. Rare, nigh unobtainable, gear is normal. Nigh unobtainable spells are not. You don't see a difference, but I see a huge one.

Meteor doesn't make a difference for BLM's performance because currently there are no optimal strategy that involved meteor BLMs. Like how there are situational gears that's pretty much useless to have too....I can argue that a Rag DRK with no apoc isn't bad compare with another rag+apoc DRK in current endgame event too. Honestly I see no difference between a rare and useful spell and a rare and useful gear.

March is situational? March is useless? In a day when warp scrolls are practically free, Warp II is situational and useless. Oh, but every BLM is expected to have it. If the new March allows a BRD to sing a set of songs that are even 1% better than what they could before, every BRD will be expected to have it no matter how rare it is. You and SE just don't understand human nature.

saevel

11-15-2012, 10:55 PM

Looking at the attitudes over at the land of the azure underwear, if you don't have a 99 G.horn with an Empy Harp then your some sort of scrub BRD.

So yes if SE made "March III" extremely stupid and restrictive, then it would suddenly be used as an exclusionary mark.

/shout <Insert Event Here> March III BRD <Can I have It> and all that jazz.

Zagen

11-15-2012, 10:56 PM

I already told you. Those spells don't matter because they aren't perceived as necessary for basic functionality. March will be. Players will expect every BRD to have it, no matter how unrealistic that expectation is.

No it's not going to be based on how many people have it. It's going to be based on how effective the song is calculated to be.
Unless March 3 and/or Haste 2 allow surpassing the magical haste cap neither will likely be "OMG you're gimp for not having X spell" types of spells. March 3 if it follows the same increase will give 12.5% haste. A 99 Relic BRD with +2 hands you'd be giving 20.5% so far from cap, Haste 2 would have to provide 23% haste to be able to cap magical haste with these 2 spells. While I don't think an 8% increase to haste is unrealistic with the way things are going I doubt the devs would think that to be balanced for a non-SP spell.