Un-gimping magic procs in dynamis

[Malthar]

Hello SE,

Any plans of increasing the proc rate of single target magic spells in dynamis?

This fix is much needed to relieve some of the congestion and contention that people face when they square off against other players.

I can say this for sure, neo-dynamis has made enemies of people who ordinarily would not be.

[Mirage]

I agree. While it is true that magic can be "spammed" more easily, we also can't ignore that with the right job or subjob, job abilities are not very far behind. As I understand it, the magic proc rate is around 5%, while JA procs seem to be about 20%. I think it would be more balanced to keep magic procs at somewhere around 10%, and at the same time keep the proc rate reduction for AoE spells.

Another issue is WS procs. It is believed that WS procs are actually at a bit lower rate than JA procs, even though it is usually possible to use JAs much more often than WSes. Additionally, JAs do not have the side effect of killing the mob faster than you are able to proc it. If JAs are at 20%, I think WSes should probably be at around 25-30%, rather than the 15% they are currently believed to be.

At the very least, these proc rate changes could be implemented in City dynamises, which are currently significantly less popular than CoP dynamis and Northlands. This could help to spread the player base over more dynamis areas, so that we don't all have to fight over the best spots in the same few zones.

[Caketime]

I can say this for sure, neo-dynamis has made enemies of people who ordinarily would not be.

P. sure this was intended.

[Luvbunny]

Definitely need this adjustment, as well as making the cities dynamis more currency farming friendly

[Demon6324236]

I dyna as RDM, I can get aggro from magic mobs & even I don't try procing them, with Fast Cast & Dia you would think it would be somewhat reasonable but I have tried before & wasted 3 minutes in my spamming attempts, it just isn't worth it. I would welcome this adjustment, as well as an adjustment to WS procs, seeing as JA doesn't really damage a mob & can be used more often, where as a WS deals alot of damage & can only be used by dealing damage in the 1st place, making it less often, and more dangerous.

[Luvbunny]

I am not quite sure why they won't let magic proc similar to JA. Considering there will be OPTIONS for people to farm and you will see far more other jobs doing it other than your usual dancer, thief and beast master in one zone. A lot of their decisions are just extremely mind boogling. There are 11 dynamis zone that they can make extremely friendly for currency farming and turn it into more abyssea style where you can do it a little at a time for bigger goal. With a daily limit of 2 hours - I doubt you can plow this content fast unless you have tons of gill to spend on currency. I thought they want new ways to absorb those blinker fiasco gils.

[Kincard]

I do approve of this change, though it's probably going to be tough to balance something like this. If they raise the magic proc too high then the most effective thing will be to have a RDM with no subjob team up with any melee(s) and have the RDM going around spamming dia while everyone else bulldozes it the second the RDM procs.

[Demon6324236]

Trust me, magic procs as of now are worthless, even at 10~15% I cant see the use for abuse.

[Luvbunny]

Or they can put a limitation on WHICH magic will proc. Say only 2 spells from each category to prevent abuse, or split it by time, there are so many ways to make it work. Abysea pretty much put a limit on spell proc, which let you proc, but does not let you abuse it. I think they take the easy way out as usual. But honestly - this issue should be adjusted so that it opens up more dynamis area for people to farm currency. We already have 2 hours limit, every 24 hours, the only way you can abuse it if you created 18 mules and each of them are geared for 2 hours rotation dynamis farm, even then only 12 can go with the 2 hours limit.

[Mavrick]

This really is not as complicated as some of you make it out to be.
Simply boost magic proc and have a small 5~10 (perhaps even 15) seconds cool down between each failed attempt at triggering magic proc.

IE.
Boost Magic Proc to 20~30%. If magic fails to trigger proc, the target monster becomes IMMUNE to magic proc for the next 5~10 seconds after which the player can attempt to trigger magic proc again. Very simple and solves the problem of chainspell dia since you'd have to wait between every failed attempt.

[Metaking]

well increasing magic up to or close to ja proc would probably increase the number of jobs you could do dynamis on rdm pld whm and blu would get alot more common, and would also increase the number of soloers a zone could hold, and maybe decrees some of an animosity targeted at bst, the dia spam issue would favor rdm(refresh2) seance most other jobs could drain there tank dry solo even just spamming dia (most mage jobs going to have to be using pdt and dd gear lowering there refresh slots some) or in blus case something like sprout smack(yea i know foot kick is cheaper, but sprout has a lower set cost, and an ok slow).

ps forgive my spelling no spellcheck >.<

[Glamdring]

This definately needs to happen, and not just for the above reasons. Casters need to get new life in this game. as it is, most soloers AND shells are going JA heavy and this creates major bottlenecks, especially against "time of day" proc mobs. IF the magic proc rate were adjusted upwards it would expand both the jobs that can be used AND the prey which can be targetted.

If the adjustments to Perfect Defense and Embrava are any indication, you seem to be trying to end the reliance on Zerg for all content, why not dynamis? And if you need a balance argument, you need only look at the jobs that are used in Dynamis by soloers now-pet jobs and any fast TP melee job/dnc. Mages are largely excluded and even nin which can proc magic mobs generally don't try, because the chance of success is so much higher on JA/WS mobs. Take the hint.

Lastly, there are alot of players in this game who loved their casters, but have been forced to largely abandon them due to everything being Zerg; giving them a viable outlet outside Aby can only be to the good, and not just as a !! proccer, but a viable source of damage in their own right. Seriously, people just want to be able to play their favorite job and still have utility and viability. Maybe you are trying to do that in the new expansion, but that's not here yet, the rest of the game is. So how about some relevance NOW?

[Luvbunny]

Totally agree then you can see more variety of dynamis player that is not solely focused on job abilities, it lets people to come farm other than beastmaster, thief, dancer, and ninja. The zone can be taken advantage for people who wants to farm with JA, Magic and WS. Can you just imagine, NO WASTED CAMPs and mobs. More variety and there are reasons to upgrade those relic armor and play in dynamis. More currencies flowing to the game, more gils being absorbed. More people stay to actually finish some relic weapon. More players who will want to upgrade to level 95-99 weapons. More reasons to keep on playing. Already your options for completing relic is buying currency or farming yourself, for casual players, this means farming over 3-8 months depending if you want to farm daily with 2 characters or not. I see no reasons why putting another invisible walls for people and limiting content to select few.

[Kincard]

As far as WS procs go, they are already taken advantage of using certain tactics so I don't think that really requires adjusting. Magic certainly does though.

[Demon6324236]

WS procs had problems with AoEs, thats fine, but the low proc rate itself is outrageous.

[Kincard]

The proc rate isn't actually that low, it's only low because you're looking at it from the prospective of someone who went on a run focusing on proccing JA. Obviously if you're going on BLM/SCH you're not going to be hitting any JA procs, so same idea applies with the WS procs- you need to setup specifically for it. PUPs, SAMs, and PLDs all have their own way of taking advantage of WS proc time.

That being said though, a slight increase would certainly be welcome (Making it the same rate as JA would be fair). PUPs in particular tend to pull in about the same amount of coins during WS time as a DNC or THF would during JA time though.

[Kristal]

I do approve of this change, though it's probably going to be tough to balance something like this. If they raise the magic proc too high then the most effective thing will be to have a RDM with no subjob team up with any melee(s) and have the RDM going around spamming dia while everyone else bulldozes it the second the RDM procs.

Heavens forbid that RDM becomes for magic procs what DNC is for JA procs and PUP for WS procs...
Last thing we want is RDM to be usefull for anything, after all. Can't have people think it's no longer a fool of all trades, master of none.

[Caketime]

The Jester's Hat was made for RDM specifically imo. Magic procs' effectiveness should be tweaked for some variety at the very least, the prevalence of DNC and /DNC makes Dyna that much more boring. If magic procs were boosted I'd be dusting off my WHM and my melee gear, I'd love any excuse to bust out that job, bonus for getting to use my hammer. Dyna might actually be fun at that point, and not just a 2 hour daily timesink for currency.

[Luvbunny]

Heavens forbid that RDM becomes for magic procs what DNC is for JA procs and PUP for WS procs... Last thing we want is RDM to be usefull for anything, after all. Can't have people think it's no longer a fool of all trades, master of none.

Making RDM being able to farm dyna effectively using magic would be a fantastic idea. It's addressing some issues people want with RDM without having to tweak much of their spells repertoire, which is more work for SE. But you know how they work over there, players suggested some improvement, down the drain it goes.

[Mirage]

Not being a rdm myself, I would welcome a rdm in the same dyna area as me over almost any other job, seeing as they'd never be competing with me for mobs.

[Kincard]

Heavens forbid that RDM becomes for magic procs what DNC is for JA procs and PUP for WS procs...
Last thing we want is RDM to be usefull for anything, after all. Can't have people think it's no longer a fool of all trades, master of none.

...yes, I was implying they should adjust it so that the proc rate was appropriate, but I've heard people suggest absurd things like 90+% proc rate for magic in total seriousness which obviously would push every single group to just farm magic instead.

[Mirage]

with that, i'd just dnc/nin and spam the elemental nis

[Demon6324236]

10~20% would be good for magic, nothing more, nothing less. WS should be 20~25 & JA should be 15~20 imo.

[Afania]

Hello SE,

Any plans of increasing the proc rate of single target magic spells in dynamis?

This fix is much needed to relieve some of the congestion and contention that people face when they square off against other players.

I can say this for sure, neo-dynamis has made enemies of people who ordinarily would not be.

This would devalue relic and currency, since more currency would flood to the market, and makes relic even cheaper(and more standard DD weapon) than it is now. If they're going to ungimp magic proc in dyna, they will probably either make currency drop rate lower for all 3 type procs, or make the content even harder than it is now for balance.

[Metaking]

yes it would cause a small increase (about 5-15% currency depending on server) tho some of that will be soaked up, when more people find it a considerable possibly to solo a relic, also mages gearing up for melee work will help drive some gear from crafters up in price and should be a real boon for cooks which all of the above would increase gil flow, now the down side is ever relic made is a pretty large amount of gil permanently taken from the system, which might help the yo-yo effect were going to have sooner or later from the blinkers nurf, or make it worse, I am not really sure...

[Mirage]

Currency supply has already been increased over 500%, I don't think another few percents increase from mages being able to do it as well would matter a lot.

[Kincard]

Even if they made magic procs viable, most people would only go on mages if they had no other choice anyway (Or because they like said job), because obviously a mage gearing melee will not be doing as much damage, and magic does not lend itself well to long events like Dynamis.

[Mirage]

Because blue mage doesn't exist.

[Kincard]

Clearly I was including blue magic in that statement.

Even ignoring that, if they made magic ~10%, compared to the JA's ~25% I'm not entirely sure spamming foot kick would get you that many more procs over time.

[Mirage]

But you wouldn't have to fight on top of the same 50 something/dncs that were in the same dyna zone as you.

I would probably consider going blu instead of dnc if this change was implemented. Well, whenever my blu gear improves.

Also, it would let you go blu/somethingnotdnc for faster kills.

[Kincard]

For BLU especially, its proc time that's the bottleneck moreso than your killspeed, really. Well, that and BSTs hoarding 6 mobs at once.

[Glamdring]

For BLU especially, its proc time that's the bottleneck moreso than your killspeed, really. Well, that and BSTs hoarding 6 mobs at once.

easily fixed, 1 more tweak, "mob goes yellow, must reproc," problem solved, next?

[Ophannus]

Magic procs would be boss as BLU/NIN soloing in dyna would destroy BLU/DNC soloing. Between delta thrust and sudden lunge, procing magic with blu would be amazing if they upped the rate of magic proc.

[Caketime]

For BLU especially, its proc time that's the bottleneck moreso than your killspeed, really. Well, that and BSTs hoarding 6 mobs at once.

Cry more please~

[Kincard]

Who's crying? I don't care if a BST is holding mobs, I'll just take one of your procced mobs/WS one-shot it for free coins if you're going to be greedy, just like I expect people to do to me when I do it. Of course said BST gets pissed off because somehow I'm the guy being a jerk. White mob is free game. It's especially entertaining when you have those bandwagon BSTs that don't have a clue what they're doing and get themselves killed trying to gather 10 monsters at once.

[Caketime]

You brought up BST as an example "bottleneck" holding back your kill speed when the fact is that most BST have figured out that procs are more important than mass kills and are not responsible for holding you back in any way. Not only that, there's lots of mobs to go around in the first place so why even bring up a tired talking point to support your post?

[Kincard]

I was mostly being snarky, with BST as a placeholder for pretty much anybody in competition with you. You must live in one paradise of a server if competition isn't very noticeably affecting your performance in dynamis. You would either have to be a really slow killer, in a very empty zone, or killing undesirable monsters (Beastmen) to be having a idle-free run.

[Afania]

Magic procs would be boss as BLU/NIN soloing in dyna would destroy BLU/DNC soloing. Between delta thrust and sudden lunge, procing magic with blu would be amazing if they upped the rate of magic proc.

Don't even need to /NIN, BLU with any SJ spamming foot kick can proc really fast if magic proc isn't that bad. You can literally spam it forever and never have to wait for down time or MP recover.

Can just /RDM for convert or stay with /DNC for samba.

[Demon6324236]

Think /NIN would mainly be for Dual Wield III without needing to set it as a trait.

[Caketime]

I was mostly being snarky, with BST as a placeholder for pretty much anybody in competition with you. You must live in one paradise of a server if competition isn't very noticeably affecting your performance in dynamis. You would either have to be a really slow killer, in a very empty zone, or killing undesirable monsters (Beastmen) to be having a idle-free run.

I play on Leviathan. No problems here. :3

[Gaspee]

I agree with the OP. The congestion at the job ability mobs is really bad... making magic and ws procs a little easier would be a welcomed adjustment!

[Motenten]

Another issue is WS procs. It is believed that WS procs are actually at a bit lower rate than JA procs, even though it is usually possible to use JAs much more often than WSes.

From my parses on pup, weaponskill proc rates are also at about 20%. (I got 18.8% overall, but that includes the puppet using its abilities on proc'd mobs; it excludes pure-damage weaponskills on proc'd mobs, since I use different weaponskills for procs vs damage.)

The main difference is that weaponskill procs (aside from puppets) inherently do damage to the mob (plus counting the melee time needed to get TP for another attempt), which means the mob will always die faster from weaponskill procs than JA procs, reducing the chances of getting a proc before the mob dies. Number of attempts per mob determines the overall proc rate, so that's an important factor.

I've never parsed magic proc rates, but from incidental attempts that I've seen... Well, ninjutsu seems to have a very low proc rate; 10% at best. Normal magic from rdm (when silencing/sleeping/etc mage beastmen) doesn't seem too terribly bad, though still annoying; dia almost never proc's, but things like silence/sleep/paralyze/slow/etc seemed more likely.

Personally, I'd probably suggest having the chance of proc'ing be proportional to the cast time of the spell (base cast time of the spell, not the result after fast cast is applied). Things like Dia and extremely fast blu spells would be on the low end. Maybe ancient magic could be like a 50% proc rate or something. And maybe it already works that way; I don't know that anyone's done any testing on it other than the gut feeling of the above anecdotes, with obvious eyeballing caveat. It might also be proportional to damage done, for spells that do damage (and then a fixed value for enfeebles), which would also make fast, low-damage spells like Dia less useful.

[Okipuit]

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

[Raksha]

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

A simple "No" would've sufficed.

[Helel]

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

You must realize that magic procs are completely pointless and NOBODY does them intentionally. Even on BLU, if I accidentally aggro a magic-proc mob, I don't even bother trying to proc it. I kill it as soon as possible and move on to something I can proc. It's faster NOT to proc magic mobs than to attempt to proc them. Do you really think that makes any sense whatsoever? Why does this proc even exist to begin with?

With three people, it takes an average of 5-10 seconds to proc a mob using job abilities. With magic procs, it takes an average of 30 seconds, if not more...

[Kincard]

Even using JA procs I've been stuck on monsters for 2-3 minutes before before they procced. Yeah I know it would've been better to move on, but just saiyan. Also something the dev team failed to consider is the opportunity cost of using magic- casting magic over and over hurts your damage to the monster, whereas JAs, while adding the same amount of delay, only need a few uses, and WSs are something you would do in the course of battle anyway. Spamming dia is not something people normally do.

Would it at least be possible for the monster to force a proc after so many attempts? Even if you make it a high number (say, 20 casts) at least I KNOW I'll get a proc eventually even if the RNG screws me over.

[Riggs]

I find these answers from the SE reps on this forum very frustrating, all he has done is re-hase the original news about this and not taken any consideration in to what people are saying about magic proc, did you even take this to any member of the dev team?
Please if you don't believe any one here go to dynamis watch how people play it, you will not see one magic proc party of solo player there.

[HimuraKenshyn]

Next up nerf WS and JA to equal magic the Old School SE way.....

[Metaking]

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

you know if your going to reply with game data you should probably at least use what is mostly being used for job ability procs which in this case would mostly be Box step(15 second reuses) and Violent flourish (20 second reuses) which are both considerably faster than once every 30 seconds to 1 min, on the magic side your also not considering excluding rdm mp gathers slower than tp does

[Dazusu]

A simple "No" would've sufficed.

They post short answers and people cry for more of an explanation/justification. Can't have your cake and eat it as well.

[Yinnyth]

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

DNC and /DNC excel at proccing JAs. JAs are used instantly and have no cast time. /DNC gets used all the time for farming because it's the easiest and most reliable method for proccing enemies in Dynamis. 15 sec JA + 20 sec JA at 20% proc rate = ~2.3% proc rate per second, not including any extra JAs available.

PUP and /PUP excel at proccing WSs, and every job has the ability to use WSs. WSs are used instantly and have no cast time. PUP hardly ever gets used because it's not widely known how well it works. 30 sec "ws"(bulb) + 30 sec "ws"(strobe) + 3 minute "ws"(bash) + 1 minute "ws"(disruptor) at 15% proc rate = ~1.3% proc rate per second, not including the actual weapon skills used by puppet and master.

The best jobs for proccing magic are whm, blm, rdm, brd, nin, blu, and sch. Due to the casting time of spells, the recast time of spells and the low proc rate, it takes the best casters more time to proc on average than the best DNCs or PUPs. We'll use BRD for example since they have tons of fast cast gear available and tons of useful debuffs they can spam quickly including horde lull, elegy, and nocturne. Without latent active, my bard has song spellcast -47% plus loq earring and veela cape, so roughly 50% casting time down. In one minute, I can cast 12 threnodies. 60 secs for 12 spells at 5% proc rate = 1% proc rate per sec, and I don't have the ability to do anything but spamming magic until it's procced.

Summary:
JAs: DNC can achieve 2.3% chance to proc per second by using step + flourish, and can increase that rate by choosing a SJ with aggressive JAs. Additionally, they still have the ability to take other actions during the time they are attempting to proc.

WSs: PUP can achieve 1.3% chance to proc per second merely by the JAs their puppet uses, and they can increase that proc rate by WSing with their puppet or themselves. Additionally, they can take other actions between the 3 manuevers they have to keep up (fire, light, dark).

Magic: BRD can achieve 1% chance to proc per second, but debuffs are all they can do while they attempt to proc. If they stop to buff/heal/WS/JA, their chance to proc per second goes down.

Magic takes longer to proc than JAs or WSs, and attempting to proc with magic carries the cost of lost opportunity.

[Kfox]

It probably would be programmatically difficult but it would be nice if higher tier damage spells had a high rate of weakness proc-ing. Seems like low magic proc rate promotes players to spam low lvl cheap fast spells like Dia and Bio. If there could be a better way the developers could strike a balance more people would probably do cities instead of just dreamlands. Another thought is to raise the rate for magic procs and maybe remove aoe spells from the proc list. Just a thought.

[Yinnyth]

It probably would be programmatically difficult but it would be nice if higher tier damage spells had a high rate of weakness proc-ing. Seems like low magic proc rate promotes players to spam low lvl cheap fast spells like Dia and Bio. If there could be a better way the developers could strike a balance more people would probably do cities instead of just dreamlands. Another thought is to raise the rate for magic procs and maybe remove aoe spells from the proc list. Just a thought.

That's the fundamental problem with their proc system in general; it rewards quantity over quality. Some jobs are really good at spamming JAs/magic/WSs, and others are really bad at it. It doesn't matter if the spell takes 20 seconds to cast, it still has the same chance to proc as foe lullaby. It doesn't matter if your JA has a 20 minute recast, it still has the same proc rate as box step. It doesn't matter if it takes you a minute to get 100 TP, your WS proc rate is the same as samurai.

Edit: Personally, I'd like it better if there was some minor skill-based way to increase your chances of proccing though. If they could make each magic-proc enemy glow a certain color, and you get a 3x normal chance to proc with spells matching that element.

[Thorbean]

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

I'd hoped to hear that issues like this are actually being tested by the Dev team. It sounds like they have no idea how the game actually plays and just make assumptions based on nothing.

In 60 seconds you can get off 5 box steps and 3 violent flourishes.
In 60 seconds you can get around 10 Dia off, maybe 12 as RDM (casting animation cuts into spam speed alot).
In the time your JA's are cooling down you are also dealing damage and gaining TP without giving anything up (MP/time/dps).

All you have to do is log on to one of the servers and do a quick search through dynamis for the penny to drop. I can't believe this hasn't been done by someone working on the game already. Almost every person in there will be /DNC or DNC main, besides the occassional PUP. Congestion is shocking sometimes, and spreading the farmers over many camps will go a long way to easing that.

I doubt anyone would mind if you just made all mobs proc from JA 100% of the time either, it would have little impact on how the content plays currently and there would be far less competition at each camp.

[Motenten]

In one minute, I can cast 12 threnodies. 60 secs for 12 spells at 5% proc rate = 1% proc rate per sec

While I largely agree with your argument, your numbers here don't add up. Threnodies have a 2 second cast time, so with 50% spell cast time reduction it would be 1 second each. Of course you can't actually spam them 1 second apart because of the fundamental spellcasting delay, so you're still working with about 2 seconds each. Recast time is 24 seconds, though you can reduce that with haste enough that you're always going to have a threnody available (only need 33% haste to drop it under the 16 seconds a full cycle would take).

That would give you about 4 cycles (30 proc attempts) per minute. Of course you lose a fair bit of time when you have to rebuff (marches, hastes for DDs, etc) or cure -- probably 15% of all your time goes to that. That means ~26 casts, or about 3 cycles of threnodies.

The problem is what the base proc rate for magic is. If it's 5%, then even 26 attempts per minute is horrendous. Assuming 2-3 mobs per minute, that's 9-13 attempts per mob, which gives you a per-mob proc rate of 35% to 50%. If it's a 10% base proc rate, then that's 60% to 75% proc rate per mob.

The 10% rate isn't horrible, but it depends on the player being able to do almost nothing but spam spells. If I have to run for 15 seconds to the next mob, that's only one or two JA attempts lost, but it's a full cycle of spell attempts lost. Time lost to 'other stuff' (casting, running, whatever) is more detrimental to the magic user than to the JA user.


The devs apparently also don't account for the damage opportunity cost of using magic procs. If I'm using a brd, for example, I gain a lot more from letting 1 or 2 DDs focus on JA procs and fighting while the brd runs around pulling then I do by letting the brd be stuck in one spot spamming magic. It may be possible to work around that, but in every scenario I've run, you lose more by either not simply adding another DD instead of a mage, or not having the mage focus on crowd control and pulling instead of procing.

I'd say that magic procs would need to be bumped up to at least a 15% raw proc rate to be a competitive option with other proc choices.

[Thoraeon]

DNC and /DNC excel at proccing JAs. JAs are used instantly and have no cast time. /DNC gets used all the time for farming because it's the easiest and most reliable method for proccing enemies in Dynamis. 15 sec JA + 20 sec JA at 20% proc rate = ~2.3% proc rate per second, not including any extra JAs available.

PUP and /PUP excel at proccing WSs, and every job has the ability to use WSs. WSs are used instantly and have no cast time. PUP hardly ever gets used because it's not widely known how well it works. 30 sec "ws"(bulb) + 30 sec "ws"(strobe) + 3 minute "ws"(bash) + 1 minute "ws"(disruptor) at 15% proc rate = ~1.3% proc rate per second, not including the actual weapon skills used by puppet and master.

The best jobs for proccing magic are whm, blm, rdm, brd, nin, blu, and sch. Due to the casting time of spells, the recast time of spells and the low proc rate, it takes the best casters more time to proc on average than the best DNCs or PUPs. We'll use BRD for example since they have tons of fast cast gear available and tons of useful debuffs they can spam quickly including horde lull, elegy, and nocturne. Without latent active, my bard has song spellcast -47% plus loq earring and veela cape, so roughly 50% casting time down. In one minute, I can cast 12 threnodies. 60 secs for 12 spells at 5% proc rate = 1% proc rate per sec, and I don't have the ability to do anything but spamming magic until it's procced.

Summary:
JAs: DNC can achieve 2.3% chance to proc per second by using step + flourish, and can increase that rate by choosing a SJ with aggressive JAs. Additionally, they still have the ability to take other actions during the time they are attempting to proc.

WSs: PUP can achieve 1.3% chance to proc per second merely by the JAs their puppet uses, and they can increase that proc rate by WSing with their puppet or themselves. Additionally, they can take other actions between the 3 manuevers they have to keep up (fire, light, dark).

Magic: BRD can achieve 1% chance to proc per second, but debuffs are all they can do while they attempt to proc. If they stop to buff/heal/WS/JA, their chance to proc per second goes down.

Magic takes longer to proc than JAs or WSs, and attempting to proc with magic carries the cost of lost opportunity.

The reason why they cannot increase magic proc rate is BLU. Can easily spam Delta Thrust, Head Butt, or 20 other possible quick cast/recast spells that they have.

[FrankReynolds]

Am I the only one who thinks that these procs are pointless and they should just get rid of them entirely? Why not just add say 50% more HP to the mobs to compensate for the fact that you can kill as fast as you want without proccing and juts get rid of procs? It would open up entire zones instead of having everybody fighting over the same mobs.

[Kincard]

While I'm not a fan of the proc system, that idea doesn't work because removing procs removes all limitations on what job you enter as and how many you can claim at once, so strategies like mass Fell Cleaving and parties monopolizing several groups of monsters at once would not be an uncommon tactic. And if you want to argue that every camp would be open, I think that's precisely what they want to avoid to "control" the amount of ancient currency being brought in. They would reduce the bill drop rate dramatically.

[Mirage]

The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)


This is actually not correct. If you do a quick search of the dynamis zones, you will notice that the vast majority of players are either dancer, or using dancer as their sub job. This is not only because dancer is a very powerful subjob for any melee that does not have native MP or curative abilities, but also because dancer has two abilities on a cooldown timer that is a lot lower than 30 seconds. You can do steps every 15 seconds, and violent flourish every 20 seconds. Combined, these allow you to use 7 job abilities per minute, or 3.5 JAs every 30 seconds.

It doesn't matter that most JAs are on a higher timer than a dancer's steps and flourishes, when everyone uses dancer or dancer as a subjob, and always tries to proc with these JAs instead of other abilities with a longer cooldown.

I think someone in the dev team should get on a lv99 job and try to farm dynamis a few times, each time while focusing on a single type of procs. It wouldn't come as a surprise which of the runs were the most profitable, and that's where the imbalance lies.

It might just be the case that because of the great variance between cooldowns for various types of spells and abilities, the current proc system is simply not functioning in a balanced way. Perhaps abilities should be weighted by how often they are possible to use. Perhaps "High Jump" should have a much greater chance to proc than "Stutter step", considering the step can be used 10 times more often than high jump, and perhaps foot kick should have a lower chance to proc than Dia, considering foot kick has half the cast time of dia.

[Glamdring]

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

it's not an impression, it's a fact. Casters tend to be on the squishy side, and that's by design, we get that. The problem is that solo you can't live long enough to spam tier I spells (as an example) for the proc. In a group the problem is that if there are any melees they kill the mob so fast that you don't have time for more than 1-2 procs before it's dead (maybe 3 if your melee are smart enough to not burn their TP on WS until after the proc). THAT is why magic mobs are not targeted. It is NOT a lingering impression, it's cold, hard fact.

[Glamdring]

That's the fundamental problem with their proc system in general; it rewards quantity over quality. Some jobs are really good at spamming JAs/magic/WSs, and others are really bad at it. It doesn't matter if the spell takes 20 seconds to cast, it still has the same chance to proc as foe lullaby. It doesn't matter if your JA has a 20 minute recast, it still has the same proc rate as box step. It doesn't matter if it takes you a minute to get 100 TP, your WS proc rate is the same as samurai.

Edit: Personally, I'd like it better if there was some minor skill-based way to increase your chances of proccing though. If they could make each magic-proc enemy glow a certain color, and you get a 3x normal chance to proc with spells matching that element.

I think you pretty much nailed it. I usually solo pup/dnc with either the whm or rdm auto which yeilds a pretty even proc rate on all 3 procs and lets me work some camps that aren't as common due to the magic mobs around. But it is MUCH slower than other job combos or even other autos as you pointed out in your earlier post (60-75 currency rate per 2 hour run instead of the 100-120 I could do-if I luck out and have no competition). Not to mention REALLY missing a sleep ability when the smn mobs decide to show up. Too bad rng/nin is so squishy with no healing ability to speak of, with a good Xbow (if one existed at endgame) it could make a good 3 proc solo artist without all the godawful downtime that cripples its effectiveness and allow for TH use.

[Demon6324236]

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.Please keep in mind, I am a RDM with a Fast Cast set that is at roughly -70% cast time. Even with that I dare not bother to even attempt to proc magic proc mobs with Dia. My casting & recast are so small it is insignificant, but the low proc rate makes it so unappealing I am better off going RDM/DNC & fighting Job Ability proc mobs rather than actually going out & fighting magic proc mobs. A 5% proc rate is a 1/20 chance, which is what the players have estimated it as, and with my experience its true. This low of a rate makes it much harder, even if you can spam spells.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace.Spells cost MP as well, just like WSs cost TP. At 20 casts of dia per proc, you are looking at 140 MP on average to proc a mob, thats alot of time & MP, a job without refresh would be empty after only 6~7 mobs proced. I understand magic can be spammed quickly, but look at it this way, RDM with nearly capped Fast Cast, and yet I don't bother procing magic procs, let alone other jobs that cast slower, or don't have a 7MP/Tick Refresh effect at nearly all times. The speed of magic really does not go well with this low rate, by keeping it the same it will simply keep ignoring magic proc mobs & doing mainly JA, with a few people going to WS. Magic mobs are currently just that bad, please reconsider this, it will help overall clutter in zones & make more jobs effective in Dyna as a whole!

[Hashmalum]

The developers have stated that they don't want to create content that nobody does. That's good. But that is exactly what they have done with magic and weaponskill proc mobs. Nobody tries to proc on them; procs on magic/WS mobs are basically by accident. There's no reason to even kill them in the first place unless they aggro or you are farming non-currency drops like pop items; in neither of these two cases is it worth your time to try and proc. (In the first case you want the aggro out of the way ASAP so you can get back to what you meant to be doing, in the second case procing won't help your drop rates and trying to proc will slow down your kill speed.) If only we could force them to open their damn eyes and actually LOOK at what is going on instead of tossing off some preconceived notion that they have never tested against the reality even once.

[Raksha]

The reason why they cannot increase magic proc rate is BLU. Can easily spam Delta Thrust, Head Butt, or 20 other possible quick cast/recast spells that they have.


Oh no, BLU might become as good at farming dynamis as DNC is currently.

Can't have that.

[Demon6324236]

I'm confused as to why BLU would be more of a threat than RDM, BLU actually can kill the mob with spells & has alot less MP recovery than RDM does, where as RDM also has alot more on the defensive side (so far as I know) to keep the enemy from really taking them down.

[Hashmalum]

I'm confused as to why BLU would be more of a threat than RDM, BLU actually can kill the mob with spells & has alot less MP recovery than RDM does, where as RDM also has alot more on the defensive side (so far as I know) to keep the enemy from really taking them down.Because RDM doesn't so much kill mobs as it does annoy them to death.

[Motenten]

From a superficial look, I don't think giving blu the ability to spam for procs would be significantly negative problem.

Consider: You need 4-5 spells that you can cycle through, given recast timers, if you really want to be able to spam them. This probably means at least a couple spells squeezing out of the standard, 'preferred' spells.

If raw spell proc rates were increased to 15%, 10 spells would give an 80% per-mob proc rate. 10 spells would eat up a good 20 seconds of melee time, and probably at least 20% of the blu's MP pool. Now, the spells themselves do damage, so it's not a complete loss, but you're not going to be doing melee damage or getting TP during that period.

Overall kill time may be in the 20-30 second range (which is pretty good solo; that's more the time you'd expect from a duo), but you'll run out of MP fairly quickly at that pace since a lot of the damage will have to come from spells due to lack of melee TP.

If you think the potential is a bit too high, you can lower the proc rate to 12.5%, which would give a 75% per-mob proc rate after 10 spells.

I need to do a run and parse the current behavior just to get a better idea of the degree of shift needed for this to be viable.

Edit: and yes, I doubt this would be practical for rdm solo, but it could at least have the potential of being a good duo setup.

[Aldersyde]

You people just never learn do you?

They are not going up magic proc, they will just end up nerfing ja procs.

I guess when everyone's proc rate sucks together, you'll all be happy?

[Demon6324236]

If they do then oh well, they just prove again they don't care about players & instead want to make this game suck.

[Babekeke]

you know if your going to reply with game data you should probably at least use what is mostly being used for job ability procs which in this case would mostly be Box step(15 second reuses) and Violent flourish (20 second reuses) which are both considerably faster than once every 30 seconds to 1 min, on the magic side your also not considering excluding rdm mp gathers slower than tp does

/sigh

You had to go and say it. You couldn't resist, and went and said it.

Next dev response: "we understand that job ability procs are actually easier than we had originally intended, so they will be reduced to proc the same as magic".

Then the price of currenecy goes up and people stop making relics.


I'm confused as to why BLU would be more of a threat than RDM, BLU actually can kill the mob with spells & has alot less MP recovery than RDM does, where as RDM also has alot more on the defensive side (so far as I know) to keep the enemy from really taking them down.

Blu can get TH2 without THF sub... only real reason I can think of.

[Yinnyth]

While I largely agree with your argument, your numbers here don't add up. Threnodies have a 2 second cast time, so with 50% spell cast time reduction it would be 1 second each.

I did not math out the fact that I could do 12 threnodies in a minute. I went outside Jeuno, stood next to a lizard, set a digital timer to 1 minute, then started spamming threnodies as fast as I could until the timer went off. I got 12.

You're under-estimating the delay after the spell casts. Just because a spell has 2 seconds casting time, and I have song cast -50% doesn't mean I can get 60 casts per minute. I can't even get 30.

[Metaking]

/sigh

You had to go and say it. You couldn't resist, and went and said it.

Next dev response: "we understand that job ability procs are actually easier than we had originally intended, so they will be reduced to proc the same as magic".

Then the price of currenecy goes up and people stop making relics.



Blu can get TH2 without THF sub... only real reason I can think of.

sorry i just cant follow Ramba Ral's example also @ demon6324 generally blu is seen as a much more dangerous DD which generally as a rule is very true but on mobs with low def and assuming the rdm has the gear for it there going to go req it Ralf on the mobs for killer dmg(just look at the unholy amount of mnd a rdm can really stack up ) enough to stack up to blus dmg im not sure.

[Demon6324236]

Eh, I do Dyna as RDM, in my mind its DD power is overall about the same, then again I don't care much for BLU anymore, but in either case I have been doing great damage with my RDM. I just think of RDM as more of a threat overall not only in solo, but in any case just because of the faster casting & much longer lasting MP pool.

[Calysto]

to be fair for ja procs, unlike ws and spells, they can't hit multiple mobs.
if the rep used that agrument, it would be more convincing than the "recast" thing to me.

but of course, the whole point is meaningless because BALANCE, so go away, nothing to see here.

[Demon6324236]

WSs can AoE, they nerfed the proc rate for AoE WSs hitting mobs other than the one targeted, do the same with spells.

[HimuraKenshyn]

Man some must have some poorly geared blu's if blu/dnc isn't absolutely destroying dynamis solo. Can have TH and can easily kill any Dynamis mob with one self skillchain using very little mp in a blink of an eye.

[Aldersyde]

/sigh

You had to go and say it. You couldn't resist, and went and said it.

Next dev response: "we understand that job ability procs are actually easier than we had originally intended, so they will be reduced to proc the same as magic".

Then the price of currenecy goes up and people stop making relics.

Glad somebody gets it. What was a thread about improving magic procs is now one bitching and whining about how blahblah job is too good at ja proc and which blahblah job is too good at ws procs. Just like how a crab is only good for keeping another crab down, such is the ffxi playerbase, with players pulling down other players to create a common level of mediocrity and frustration. The much vaunted assertion that ffxi has a better community than most other mmos seems so ridiculous when you look at these forums. All I see something akin to a kindergarten class where kids go off on a whining spree when they look over and see someone with a slightly larger cookie or more juice.

[Oakrest]

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

Does anyone at SE actually play this game any more?

[Demon6324236]

Does anyone at SE actually play this game any more?

lol... no...

[Yinnyth]

Glad somebody gets it. What was a thread about improving magic procs is now one bitching and whining about how blahblah job is too good at ja proc and which blahblah job is too good at ws procs.

If that's what they were bitching and whining about, they'd be asking for JA and WS procs to be nerfed. No one is asking for that. They're asking for magic procs to be buffed. DNC is good at JA procs, good for them. PUP is good at WS procs, good for them. Everyone sucks at magic procs.

[HimuraKenshyn]

Glass is half full or half empty the adjustment hammer to JA and WS would even the playing field so MA proccers have nothing to cry about it's the SE way to fix a problem...

[Aldersyde]

If that's what they were bitching and whining about, they'd be asking for JA and WS procs to be nerfed. No one is asking for that. They're asking for magic procs to be buffed. DNC is good at JA procs, good for them. PUP is good at WS procs, good for them. Everyone sucks at magic procs.

That's not the vibe I get from people pointing out dnc ja timer's being so short or automaton's attachment abilities counting as ws. It sounds more like: "..but, but, dnc jas and automaton abilities are on short timers too! Why shouldn't they suck as much as magic proc?" Pointing out what's unfair (to them) is the exact same as saying they want SE to look at it.

That's exactly what people have been doing the last few pages. I'd like better rates on magic procs too. but whining about ja timers being on short timers isn't going to change SE's minds about their reasoning concerning magic proc. All it's going to do is make them look closely at dnc jas and automaton abilities and possibly get them "adjusted." Then everyone will get to suck together.

[Yinnyth]

That's not the vibe I get from people pointing out dnc ja timer's being so short or automaton's attachment abilities counting as ws. It sounds more like: "..but, but, dnc jas and automaton abilities are on short timers too! Why shouldn't they suck as much as magic proc?"

The vibe you're getting is incorrect. No one here wants procs in Dynamis to be made harder in any way. And I'm sure you don't want people to only half-read your posts then invent a false point you're trying to raise which makes you look like a petulant child because that's the vibe they got from your post.

I have PUP, I have DNC. If I know I'll need JA procs, I /DNC. If I know I'll need WS procs, I'll PUP or /PUP. If I know I'll need magic procs, I'm screwed. And that's not how it should work. I should have an option for all 3, and those options should be roughly equal in effectiveness.

[Aldersyde]

The vibe you're getting is incorrect. No one here wants procs in Dynamis to be made harder in any way. And I'm sure you don't want people to only half-read your posts then invent a false point you're trying to raise which makes you look like a petulant child because that's the vibe they got from your post.

I have PUP, I have DNC. If I know I'll need JA procs, I /DNC. If I know I'll need WS procs, I'll PUP or /PUP. If I know I'll need magic procs, I'm screwed. And that's not how it should work. I should have an option for all 3, and those options should be roughly equal in effectiveness.

Of course no one wants that, but there's a possibility that's what's going to happen. This is SE were talking about here.Or have you been playing a totally different game than I have this past decade or so? Actions have unintended consequences? Who knew?

[Motenten]

I did not math out the fact that I could do 12 threnodies in a minute. I went outside Jeuno, stood next to a lizard, set a digital timer to 1 minute, then started spamming threnodies as fast as I could until the timer went off. I got 12.

You're under-estimating the delay after the spell casts. Just because a spell has 2 seconds casting time, and I have song cast -50% doesn't mean I can get 60 casts per minute. I can't even get 30.

You are correct. I had assumed a 1 second next-spell-cast delay, but testing indicated that that was quite wrong.


First, basic testing agrees with Yinnyth. I was able to consistently get 12 threnodies per minute once I got the recast timing down (with only occasional errors). So next I tried to figure out why.

FRAPS analysis of casting time.

I don't have a perfect brd gear set; missing 6% in cast time, and don't have Minstrel's Ring. End up at 40% total.

Changed subjob to /rdm for the extra fast cast to see how it would affect things. That puts me at 55% fast cast.

After adjusting to the slightly different timing, I was able to get 14 spells cast per minute.

14 spells per minute is 4.28 seconds per spell. Can figure the 0.28 is human error, in that I can't cast the next spell at the perfect recast moment, and it's a 4 second recast on a 1 second spellcasting time (after fast cast is applied). That's a 3 second casting delay.

To test this effect, I retried using Minuets. Nominal cast time is 8 seconds.

With /rdm and fast cast gear, time between start of Min4 and Min5 is 7.233 seconds. Actual cast time should have been 3.6 seconds. Difference is 3.6 seconds; with allowance for human error, we still get the 3 second delay.

Tried again with /whm and no fast cast. Time between start of Min4 and Min5 is 11.367 seconds. Subtracting the nominal cast time leaves a 3.367 second window, for 3 seconds plus human error.


Overall conclusion: Minimum delay after the completion of one spell before you can cast another is 3 seconds. Using the fastest casting spells available, plus accounting for human error, lowest realistic time per spell cast is 4 seconds, allowing for 15 spells cast per minute.

[Motenten]

Now, as this applies to the magic proc system (ie: 3 second delay between casts), that means up to perhaps 7 spells cast per mob (30 second kill time).

Since this is a universal casting delay, blu does not get a significant advantage due to its fast-casting spells. Rdm's high fast cast mainly just opens up more spell options (ie: spells with 3 second base cast times can be brought down to the 1 second region).



Considering the limit of how it compares with JA usage: Spells can be used far more frequently than any single JA, however JAs are not limited by the universal delay effect. JAs can be stacked sequentially with just 1 second delay between each one (aside from the last), so you could do something like Box Step + Violent Flourish + Provoke in the space of 4 seconds, whereas you could only cast a single spell in that time period. On the other hand, you can keep casting spells during the period you're waiting for JA recasts to come back up.

Virually all players in Dynamis are using dnc or /dnc. Almost all jobs have a ~3-5 minute JA to add on to the Step/Flourish available from dnc. Together, the maximum average rate of JA attempts would be one attempt per ~8.25 seconds. Spells have a maximum average rate of one attempt per 4 seconds.

A naive implementation might then put the raw proc rate for magic at 10% if the raw proc rate for JAs is 20%. However one must also recognize that on the JA side, the player is free to take a large number of actions in between the JA uses, whereas the magic user does not have that luxury. If you allow for the time for the magic user to actually perform their normal job (hasting, marches, curing, etc), the proc attempt rate drops quickly.

Every spell a magic user casts deducts from their ability to cast proc spells, whereas meleeing and weaponskilling does not detract from the JA user's ability to proc (and in fact aids in killing the mob, which is almost as important as the procs). Every 4 seconds you have to run to the next mob is another proc attempt lost, whereas it would take ~10 seconds to lose a proc attempt for the JA user. The JA user only has to pay attention to the recast time on the ability in question, whereas the magic user's next cast is dependant on an invisible delay factor, which makes them far more subject to human error.

In other words, everything involved in actually using their respective abilities to proc is far more favorable to the JA user than to the magic user.



Now, let's look into per-mob proc rates. While the raw proc rate is (for example) 20% for JAs, that does not mean that every 5th JA attempt will be a proc. Mobs must eventually be killed, regardless of whether they were proc'd or not, and we can analyze the probability that any given mob will be proc'd based on the number of proc attempts.

Let's assume we have a duo: one DD, one mage. Either the DD can attempt JA procs, or the mage can attept magic procs. We'll ignore the fact that a duo of DDs increases both the kill rate and the proc attempt rate, while a pair of mages (if you were to try to increase the proc attempt rate on the magic side) would be horribly ineffective at getting good kill speed (aside from maybe blu).

If you spend ~30 seconds per mob, the DD can get 4-5 JA procs per mob. With a 20% raw proc rate and 95% hit rate (since Steps and Flourishes can miss), that gives a per-mob proc rate of 57% to 66%.

The mage may get 6-7 spells off on the same mob, if allowing for normal buffs and light curing. In order to have the same 57%-66% range of per-mob proc rates, the base proc rate for magic must be:



7 casts 6 casts
57%: 11.5% 13%
66%: 14% 16%


Overall, roughly 14%. However, as mentioned, that's assuming perfect performance. To allow for human error and the general unfavorableness of using magic procs, I'd want to bump it up to 15%.

[Yinnyth]

Of course no one wants that, but there's a possibility that's what's going to happen. This is SE were talking about here.Or have you been playing a totally different game than I have this past decade or so? Actions have unintended consequences? Who knew?

So a person points out magic is harder to proc than JA or WS, hoping to get magic proc rate buffed. SE nerfs JA and WS rate as a result. Obviously that person's fault, not SE's.

You're criticizing the wrong group of people. Do you also troll through the PUP forums saying it's their fault embrava and PD are getting nerfed? Because they've complained about their 2hr not being as good as other 2hrs?

[Motenten]

With apologies to the community reps, I do hope you can provide a complete and proper translation of that to the devs, so they can fully understand the objection. Simply saying "The NA players think magic proc rates are too low" isn't at all useful to a programmer or developer. They'll have their own models of how they believe things work, but that doesn't necessarily match the player's view of the world. It could very well be that their estimation is based on the same mistake I made, calculating the actual rate at which you can cast spells by looking at the raw spell data vs actually using it.

As an aside: I don't have a definitive parse on magic proc rates. Generally rumored value is 5%; I intend to test that in the near future. However, given the above analysis, if it is indeed 5%, I hope you can see the massive gulf between the usefulness of magic procs vs other types (even weaponskill procs).

[Byrth]

With apologies to the community reps, I do hope you can provide a complete and proper translation of that to the devs, so they can fully understand the objection. Simply saying "The NA players think magic proc rates are too low" isn't at all useful to a programmer or developer. They'll have their own models of how they believe things work, but that doesn't necessarily match the player's view of the world. It could very well be that their estimation is based on the same mistake I made, calculating the actual rate at which you can cast spells by looking at the raw spell data vs actually using it.

As an aside: I don't have a definitive parse on magic proc rates. Generally rumored value is 5%; I intend to test that in the near future. However, given the above analysis, if it is indeed 5%, I hope you can see the massive gulf between the usefulness of magic procs vs other types (even weaponskill procs).

This 5% proc rate was from back when I used to kill Mage-type monsters in cities. I looked for mage monster kills and counted the number of spells on each (pre-proc). Still, the sample size was lower than I would have liked to draw a large conclusion from it. I can't find the specific sample anymore (it's somewhere in the Neo Dynamis thread) but I want to say it was approximately 80 casts.

My Weapon Skill proc rate was based on Energy Drain usage. I only used Energy Drain if the monster was unprocced, so I could count the number of Energy Drains and the number of resulting procs. Again, though, maybe only 40-50 WSs.

Also, I replied to your post on BG.

[Sarick]

They post short answers and people cry for more of an explanation/justification. Can't have your cake and eat it as well.


Contact an ingame GM and ask them to email a user survey about support. The reps are here to provide limited support while the actual movers and shakers are in Japan. Even if the reps report the discust they are only one voice and part of the red tape. It's their job to report the complaint but they ultimately don't make the choices. They're just messengers of choices made by higher ups.

If the support team is being filtered out then perhaps they too have red tape. Get past that red tape an contact the sources of the issues because, apparently the support teams hands are tied in most of the customer request.

[tyrantsyn]

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

So the player base says imbalance, the Dev's claims it is balance. And zones will continue to be dominated by thieves and Beastmaster's only spamming JA proc's because they are feasible and allow the best results.

Honestly, whatever. If the Dev's simply can't look at the zone's and see what we're trying to tell them day after day. And insist that their percentages are right on the money than fine. The idea here is to free up the zone's during peak JA proc's. And allow the player base more options during different proc time's so that were not tripping over one another to claim mobs. If they rather keep things this way, fine.

Just consider me a dissatisfied customer when it comes to Dynamis and done leaving feedback on the subject.

[Motenten]

My Weapon Skill proc rate was based on Energy Drain usage. I only used Energy Drain if the monster was unprocced, so I could count the number of Energy Drains and the number of resulting procs. Again, though, maybe only 40-50 WSs.

What results did you have for your weaponskill test? (couldn't find a post on that either) My parses on pup have it at ~19%, but those include both real weaponskills and puppet JAs that are counted as weaponskills. Since the rep explicitly stated that weaponskills have higher proc rates than JAs, and JAs are 20%, then that suggests that puppet JAs may have a lower proc rate to balance things out, if your test supported the idea of >20% weaponskill proc rates. On the other hand, random anecdotal posts on weaponskill procs after the change to AOE weaponskills implied they were also somewhere around 20%.

If they are in fact the same 20%, then the rep was given factually incorrect information.

[Trumpy]

didnt read alot of the thread but My LS did some dynamis runs for a while with 2-3 parties worth of people. i would usually be blm and there would be times when they would pull a ton of mobs and me and other mages would sleep them. They would proc JA and WS mobs sometimes splitting up or soloing their own meanwhile i would keep the others slept and try to proc the magic ones. 10% of the time i actually proced magic. the rest never would. now my success isnt the point of this post, but 95% of the time I would be holding and sleepin these mages and spamming enfeebles sometimes nukes for literally 15 minutes with not a single proc. I understand the balance of the rates but i feel magic was set entirely too low. call it bad luck but this was pretty much how it always happened. I think procing WS and JA within a minute despite the recasts versus spamming magic non stop for 15 minutes and jsut finally giving up is NOT balanced.

[Luvbunny]

So basically it's the usual tactics, disregard problems, ignore requests from player base. Maybe if we are ignored long enough, we will stop voicing our opinion. Well you all know what to do, if you are ignored for months or years, you can just stop playing lol.

[Hashmalum]

Of course no one wants that, but there's a possibility that's what's going to happen. This is SE were talking about here.Or have you been playing a totally different game than I have this past decade or so? Actions have unintended consequences? Who knew?They're adult human beings--not children, the insane, or mindless automatons. They are the ones responsible for their own actions--not us.


With apologies to the community reps, I do hope you can provide a complete and proper translation of that to the devs, so they can fully understand the objection. Simply saying "The NA players think magic proc rates are too low" isn't at all useful to a programmer or developer. They'll have their own models of how they believe things work, but that doesn't necessarily match the player's view of the world. It could very well be that their estimation is based on the same mistake I made, calculating the actual rate at which you can cast spells by looking at the raw spell data vs actually using it.I agree 1000% on this, but I'm afraid that this avenue of approach will get us nowhere. To my knowledge, the community reps have NEVER told us exactly what they told the devs, or what their criteria for relaying feedback is. I'm afraid that if we want the devs to see our detailed reasoning that the only workable approach is to find a friendly bilingual poster and get them to translate and post our detailed concerns on the JP forums, which the devs read directly (this also provides us with an opportunity to get lobbying support from the JP community). Unfortunately my limited Japanese just isn't up to the task, otherwise I would be translating your post even now.

[Luvbunny]

You can try to google translate the japanese forum. Most of it are somewhat confusing translation but the gist should be all there. Seems that the japanese players have similar opinions when it come to the recent "adjustment", and as we all read, the developers still giving us the same respond, do not care, proceed as planned, player base matter not lol.

[Sapphires]

They should up the proc rate in general for single target spells and maybe even increase the proc chances depending on mp cost/cast time/tier of the magic spell being cast (Aero III has a better chance to proc than Dia for example).

As it stands right now 2 mages can spam dia on a target and be unable to proc it before a single DD kills it from just straight meleeing.
Its pretty sad when 2 carbuncles DD a magic proc mob and 2 smns spam dia nonstop and still cant proc it before it dies. Thats balance!

Anyways im done with dynamis pretty much aside from af2+2 xp trials, tired of being stuck with overcrowded JA camps and it supporting very little job diversity.

[Byrth]

What results did you have for your weaponskill test? (couldn't find a post on that either) My parses on pup have it at ~19%, but those include both real weaponskills and puppet JAs that are counted as weaponskills. Since the rep explicitly stated that weaponskills have higher proc rates than JAs, and JAs are 20%, then that suggests that puppet JAs may have a lower proc rate to balance things out, if your test supported the idea of >20% weaponskill proc rates. On the other hand, random anecdotal posts on weaponskill procs after the change to AOE weaponskills implied they were also somewhere around 20%.

If they are in fact the same 20%, then the rep was given factually incorrect information.

Actually, my proc rate came out at 15%.

[Motenten]

Actually, my proc rate came out at 15%.

Hmm. Interesting. And that was with Energy Drain? I wonder if weaponskill proc rate chance scales with damage? Energy Drain would do 0 damage, so 15% would be the minimum rate if that were the case. I do find that using Smite or Exenterator after time changes from JA to WS has a decently high rate of proc'ing a mob. Anecdotally, I would certainly consider it better than 15%. And of course my pup parses have been consistently around 19%, pushing 20% if you factor out puppet actions after a mob has been staggered. (example sample size: 71/370)

And of course that also leads me back to wondering if spell damage (for the spells that do damage) matters as well. If that were the case, spamming Dia would obviously give you the lowest possible proc rate, since it does around 0 to 5 damage. I'll try to control for that when I do the test.

[Byrth]

I'd be inclined to credit low sample size more than the weapon skill choice. As I said, there were only like 40 of them or something. I generally considered proccing with Energy Drain to be a waste of time and TP so I didn't do it often. My Aeolian Edge results were almost very difficult to analyze in any automated way because I'd proc monsters and then they'd still get hit with future AEs, so I had to limit my analysis to Energy Drain.

[Motenten]

Ah, yeah, only 40 would be a weak sampling; that's a 15% margin of error. Having slightly bad luck (6 procs instead of 8) would put it at 15% instead of 20%.

Ok, I think I know how I'll setup the test, then. Won't worry so much about the damage.

[Psxpert2011]

Am I the only one who thinks that these procs are pointless and they should just get rid of them entirely? Why not just add say 50% more HP to the mobs to compensate for the fact that you can kill as fast as you want without proccing and juts get rid of procs? It would open up entire zones instead of having everybody fighting over the same mobs.

/thumbsdown

the feature you wanted!


______________________________________ _ _ _ _

To Proc or not to Proc, that is the question.

That's the system Abbysea was set up for.

...if ungimping magic procs were the term, then you mages have a bigger ego than should be. Believe there's a balance between Weapon skilling and casting magic procing because the last thing the whole community needs is blm burning every single NM in FFxi.

Just be lucky the DEV team didn't requier you guys to proc using Skill Chains... and incase your new to the game(new generation) Skill Chaining is combining two (2) Weapon SKills to create one(1) elemental Skill Chain effect, causing damage. Just because content is aging doesn't mean properties get eliminated. THis would cause anarchy and imbalance.

Besides, procing should be cake by now, no more /crying

[Metaking]

/thumbsdown

the feature you wanted!


______________________________________ _ _ _ _

To Proc or not to Proc, that is the question.

That's the system Abbysea was set up for.

...if ungimping magic procs were the term, then you mages have a bigger ego than should be. Believe there's a balance between Weapon skilling and casting magic procing because the last thing the whole community needs is blm burning every single NM in FFxi.

Just be lucky the DEV team didn't requier you guys to proc using Skill Chains... and incase your new to the game(new generation) Skill Chaining is combining two (2) Weapon SKills to create one(1) elemental Skill Chain effect, causing damage. Just because content is aging doesn't mean properties get eliminated. THis would cause anarchy and imbalance.

Besides, procing should be cake by now, no more /crying

you realize we are are talking about dynamis not abysea? also the balance between weponskills and magic has long seance been lost magic bursted or not could really hurt all but a handfull of mobs generaly the top 3% end (kirin genbu faffy) weponskills where general useless over all for dmg (they could miss and unless closing a sc did crap dmg, there is a reason we use to spam spirits within), now a days you could be the pimpest of the pimp dog blms and you wont even be considered as a source of dmg anymore, any how back to the topic at hand, yes!

[raps1355]

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)
We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

Clearly you don't play this game nor have you tried the content within it as a player aiming to bring in as much currency as possible. You have probably looked a database cooldown list for JA and calculated an average on the spot without even looking at what players actually do. When players all use one method and only that there is clearly balance issues. Just fix it.

[Luvbunny]

They could easily assign certain magic only that will proc, based on the day elements if they want, like the abyssea counterpart, but limit to tier 3-4 magic only and no AM or ga spells. This way people cannot spam dia over and over. Same can be limited to blue spells as well. Magic is finite, it will run out then you have to rest mp or convert. JA is pretty much can be used over and over when the timer is up. Still, agree with most of the posters here, most people rather solo this neo dynamis or duo. They need to revamp the proc system so ALL areas will be accessible for farming and not just 3.

[Metaking]

tier 3 and 4 magic not only is easily interruptable because of casting time, but is prohibitively expensive mana wize..... remember your trying to proc and kill mobs in less than a min

[Motenten]

Magic proc rate test: Enfeebling magic (not including Dia) has an 8% proc rate. There's a possibility that nuke proc rates are higher.

Cast rate: I averaged, over 1 hr 45 minutes, 5.33 proc casts per minute. With experience I could probably get that up to 6 or 7, but I doubt it would go much higher. Including buffs and cures and stuff, total casting rate was 8 spells per minute out of a theoretical maximum of 15 spells per minute; I don't expect to be able to improve that to any higher than about 10 spells per minute for a long-term average.

* Should also note that I was rdm/whm (so no benefit or penalty for Light/Dark Arts from /sch on any of the spells), and only used Composure for recasting buffs, cancelling it before trying to cast any enfeebles.

Overall average per-mob proc rate: 36%

Test details. (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108196-Random-Facts-Thread-Magic?p=5461810&viewfull=1#post5461810)

[FrankReynolds]

/thumbsdown

the feature you wanted!


______________________________________ _ _ _ _

To Proc or not to Proc, that is the question.

That's the system Abbysea was set up for.

...if ungimping magic procs were the term, then you mages have a bigger ego than should be. Believe there's a balance between Weapon skilling and casting magic procing because the last thing the whole community needs is blm burning every single NM in FFxi.

Just be lucky the DEV team didn't requier you guys to proc using Skill Chains... and incase your new to the game(new generation) Skill Chaining is combining two (2) Weapon SKills to create one(1) elemental Skill Chain effect, causing damage. Just because content is aging doesn't mean properties get eliminated. THis would cause anarchy and imbalance.

Besides, procing should be cake by now, no more /crying

I was talking about dynamis. This thread has nothing to do with abyssea.

[Demon6324236]

I was talking about dynamis. This thread has nothing to do with abyssea.Yeah, I heard a whoosh sound when I read it, because the point of this thread went right over his head.

[Caketime]

...I like cake. >.>

[Phogg]

As a thf, I can get off only 3 ZERO damage Energy drain weapon skill proc attempts before an EP mob dies. I can get roughly twice as many attempts off on a DC mob before it dies, assuming I do not die first. In about half the cases, these mobs will die before they are proc'd.

That is why JA procs are still vastly superior. I can't simply turn around and keep proc'ing with WSs like I can JA's, meaning unless I am not paying attention, I will proc 100% of mobs I engage using JA's, compared to roughly 50% of mobs when I use WSs. Not sure how that's even remotely close to "balanced".

In practice, 3/4's of the dynamis mobs don't even need to exist if they are not currently on JA proc time. Players are excellent at exploiting things, so if they could exploit Magic or WS procs as effectively as JA's, they would do it. Yet, 95% of people work on JA mobs any time I am in dynamis. SE is doing this very wrong, other proc options should be made as viable as JAs.

[Aeonk]

As a thf, I can get off only 3 ZERO damage Energy drain weapon skill proc attempts before an EP mob dies. I can get roughly twice as many attempts off on a DC mob before it dies, assuming I do not die first. In about half the cases, these mobs will die before they are proc'd.

That is why JA procs are still vastly superior. I can't simply turn around and keep proc'ing with WSs like I can JA's, meaning unless I am not paying attention, I will proc 100% of mobs I engage using JA's, compared to roughly 50% of mobs when I use WSs. Not sure how that's even remotely close to "balanced".

In practice, 3/4's of the dynamis mobs don't even need to exist if they are not currently on JA proc time. Players are excellent at exploiting things, so if they could exploit Magic or WS procs as effectively as JA's, they would do it. Yet, 95% of people work on JA mobs any time I am in dynamis. SE is doing this very wrong, other proc options should be made as viable as JAs.

Definately agree. JA procs are nice but frankly I'm sure I'm not the only one tired of fighting with BSTs for mobs during the desired window. And thanks to the recent blinker nerf it's only gotten worse. Increasing proc options for magic and WS makes it so that just about anyone can farm dynamis if they want to, as opposed to BST/BLU/THF/DNC only. Would make it that much more lucrative for everyone, both sellers and relic makers

[Psxpert2011]

I was talking about dynamis. This thread has nothing to do with abyssea.

Yes, I admit I was thinking abysea and not dynamis and I've been in dynamis many, many times.
I've witness the WS and magic procing as it was ment to control the pwning of players coming from abysea (thinking they can own dynamis). Yes, I admit my initial post was total focus on abysea and i'm sorry but I stand firm with it.

Still: mages, ego, balance..it was initially bold out for a reason. I'll stand up to it- same argument applies.


------------------------------------------------------------ - - - - -



Yeah, I heard a whoosh sound when I read it, because the point of this thread went right over his head.



Believe me, I get it: In refrence to the "Whooosh sound" in someones head... or probably due to lack of substance & activity.

[Demon6324236]

In either case as people pointed out the proc rate is low even if your spamming the fastest spells, which for a job to main or sub those jobs would likely lower your kill speed. However the fastest JA proc main or sub is DNC, something which helps you fight and proc both, as well as it procs faster than magic, making it better in every way, this is why it needs changed.

[Kincard]

Re: WS procs being too slow. In theory, since you're proccing using an ability you'd use over the course of a battle anyway, you'd end up coming pretty close to coins yield because you're killing really fast to make up for the fact that you only proc a fraction of the monsters you fight. Get a couple more chances at +2 items as well since those don't seem to be affected by procs.

It works in theory only if there's an infinite number of monsters and your WS numbers are large enough to be outdoing the time you'd spend JA-ing and holding monsters at 5% HP. WS proc rate is pretty high honestly. Maybe I'll try seeing what happens if I try to bulldose through a camp maximizing my damage and only incidentally getting procs. I doubt it'll come near the bill yield of JAs, but considering it takes a lot less finesse to do it could work if I'm in a caveman mood.

[Phogg]

Re: WS procs being too slow. In theory, since you're proccing using an ability you'd use over the course of a battle anyway, you'd end up coming pretty close to coins yield because you're killing really fast to make up for the fact that you only proc a fraction of the monsters you fight. Get a couple more chances at +2 items as well since those don't seem to be affected by procs.

It works in theory only if there's an infinite number of monsters and your WS numbers are large enough to be outdoing the time you'd spend JA-ing and holding monsters at 5% HP. WS proc rate is pretty high honestly. Maybe I'll try seeing what happens if I try to bulldose through a camp maximizing my damage and only incidentally getting procs. I doubt it'll come near the bill yield of JAs, but considering it takes a lot less finesse to do it could work if I'm in a caveman mood.

I have tried, its not even remotely close. Even in a competitive run, JA's will win out by a tremendous amount compared to killing WS mobs with no competition. Like I said, I can attempt 3 zero dmg WS procs as THF before an EP mob dies from my normal melee attacks just trying to get TP for energy drain. So, just to attempt 3 procs per mob I already need to vastly slow down my kill speed, and that third ws is not always there. If I were actually using a normal WS to proc, they would die after 1 WS + melee dmg. I can technically double the attempts on DC's but many times I need to use TP to cure myself because the DCs hit considerably harder, and killing them takes much longer, which again reduces your net result compared to killing EPs during JA time.

As BST/dnc you can attempt 3 procs in the first 5 seconds of a battle, and continue attempts every 8 seconds or so after that, with minimal impact on your DD output. If you actually went full bulldoze mode during WS time, as you suggest, you would kill all the mobs really fast, that's for sure, and you would also proc maybe 15% of them. The ones you don't, even on thf will net you maybe 1 coin for every 5 kills. In that same amount of time you would proc and kill at least 3 mobs using JA's, and even at a conservative average of 2 coins per proc'd mob, that's 6 for JA, 1 coin for WS. One proc attempt per mob will not get it done, not even close, not in the same state, not in the same country as JA's. The system requires proc's to net a reasonable amount of coins for your effort.

There are maybe 1/5~6 mobs I need to turn for to make sure I JA proc at low HP, and the reason people do so is because getting that !! really is critical, its the difference between getting nothing, and getting up to 4 coins. So, even if I ignored those and just pushed through and did not slow my kill rate, I would still proc roughly 3~4/5 mobs with JAs. Considering on BST/dnc you can proc a mob fairly swiftly, WS >> snarl and leave to proc another mob without slowing your kill rate at all, procing 1/5 mobs with WS (at best) will net a dramatically worse result. Give it a go, it will take you all of 30 minutes in dyna to give up on it entirely and go back to using JAs. If you do an entire two hour run on only WS mobs, you will look back and wish you never wasted the time figuring out it would take 4-5 runs of dynamis in WS time to get as many coins as one run in JA time.

[FrankReynolds]

Yes, I admit I was thinking abysea and not dynamis and I've been in dynamis many, many times.
I've witness the WS and magic procing as it was ment to control the pwning of players coming from abysea (thinking they can own dynamis). Yes, I admit my initial post was total focus on abysea and i'm sorry but I stand firm with it.

Still: mages, ego, balance..it was initially bold out for a reason. I'll stand up to it- same argument applies.




None of that made sense in the context of this topic.

[hiko]

I have tried, its not even remotely close. Even in a competitive run, JA's will win out by a tremendous amount compared to killing WS mobs with no competition. Like I said, I can attempt 3 zero dmg WS procs as THF before an EP mob dies from my normal melee attacks just trying to get TP for energy drain. So, just to attempt 3 procs per mob I already need to vastly slow down my kill speed, and that third ws is not always there. If I were actually using a normal WS to proc, they would die after 1 WS + melee dmg. I can technically double the attempts on DC's but many times I need to use TP to cure myself because the DCs hit considerably harder, and killing them takes much longer, which again reduces your net result compared to killing EPs during JA time.

As BST/dnc you can attempt 3 procs in the first 5 seconds of a battle, and continue attempts every 8 seconds or so after that, with minimal impact on your DD output. If you actually went full bulldoze mode during WS time, as you suggest, you would kill all the mobs really fast, that's for sure, and you would also proc maybe 15% of them. The ones you don't, even on thf will net you maybe 1 coin for every 5 kills. In that same amount of time you would proc and kill at least 3 mobs using JA's, and even at a conservative average of 2 coins per proc'd mob, that's 6 for JA, 1 coin for WS. One proc attempt per mob will not get it done, not even close, not in the same state, not in the same country as JA's. The system requires proc's to net a reasonable amount of coins for your effort.

There are maybe 1/5~6 mobs I need to turn for to make sure I JA proc at low HP, and the reason people do so is because getting that !! really is critical, its the difference between getting nothing, and getting up to 4 coins. So, even if I ignored those and just pushed through and did not slow my kill rate, I would still proc roughly 3~4/5 mobs with JAs. Considering on BST/dnc you can proc a mob fairly swiftly, WS >> snarl and leave to proc another mob without slowing your kill rate at all, procing 1/5 mobs with WS (at best) will net a dramatically worse result. Give it a go, it will take you all of 30 minutes in dyna to give up on it entirely and go back to using JAs. If you do an entire two hour run on only WS mobs, you will look back and wish you never wasted the time figuring out it would take 4-5 runs of dynamis in WS time to get as many coins as one run in JA time.
thf is not a good job to WS proc dyna doesn't mean no job can do better ws procing

[FrankReynolds]

thf is not a good job to WS proc dyna doesn't mean no job can do better ws procing

WHat job would you say is better? And how does that change anything in his post?

[Kristal]

What job would you say is better?
PUP. The same mechanism that is a bane in Abyssea is a boon in Dynamis.


And how does that change anything in his post?
It's mostly complaining about certain job/subjob combinations that already have a distinct advantage are not good at everything.

Noone is good on magic procs, not even RDM, although the math shows that you actually need slightly less then twice the proc attempts to get a proc compared to WS and JA.

[FrankReynolds]

PUP. The same mechanism that is a bane in Abyssea is a boon in Dynamis.


It's mostly complaining about certain job/subjob combinations that already have a distinct advantage are not good at everything.

Noone is good on magic procs, not even RDM, although the math shows that you actually need slightly less then twice the proc attempts to get a proc compared to WS and JA.

So now that pup is the best at WS procs, how does that fix anything?

[hiko]

So now that pup is the best at WS procs, how does that fix anything?
now we know

procing 1/5 mobs with WS (at best)
/.../
would take 4-5 runs of dynamis in WS time to get as many coins as one run in JA time. is total bullshit and that WS mob can be a decent alternative over highcamped JA mobs.

If you talk about post subject (ie magic proc ) nothing, we have
JA best proc
WS inferior to JA but still able to get a nice amount of currencies
MA bad need to be fixed

[Lisotte]

now we know is total bullshit and that WS mob can be a decent alternative over highcamped JA mobs.

If you talk about post subject (ie magic proc ) nothing, we have
JA best proc
WS inferior to JA but still able to get a nice amount of currencies
MA bad need to be fixed


Pretty much this. As a PUP I usually expect to make around ~130 coins out of a decent run (I'm looking to make more when I get some better gear). BST friends of mine make 150-250 coins. Mage friends... don't do dyna.

[Mirage]

Or they do dyna on a nonmage job :p.

[Phogg]

I'm sorry, but requiring one single job (pup) to do anything useful in WS time does not mean WS procs are good compared to JAs. Go try it on any other job besides PUP and let me know what happens.

The answer to systemic issues should never be, level this one job. Is that not why there are so many dynawagon BSTs out there everyone loves to complain about?

[Doombringer]

whatever happened to the idea of allowing enspells to proc magic weaknesses?

granted this would heavily favor one job, and therefore many might brush it off immediately, but lets follow through with the idea for a bit. humor me.

if enspells proced magic weakness; RDM would become the magic proc diva job. just like WS has pup and JA has dnc. any job that could effectively sub rdm would also benefit (pld? blu?), just like how many jobs benefit from subbing dnc now.

so if you look at it as a job balance issue, it doesn't really help. it just adds one job to the "valid" list. but if you look at it from a proc balance perspective... i'd say it's perfectly fine? it opens up that unused third of dynamis, thus alleviating potential congestion.

also consider this; would an rdm procing magic via enspell actually do BETTER than a dnc or a bst procing JA as they do now? if anything i'd think blu/rdm would be the most potentially overpowered here, but that still pulls them out of subbing dnc and doing JA procs.

if it's a little bit better, hurray. it'll pull people out of the popular camps, so the popular camps end up also slightly buffed. (due to less competition) if it's a little bit worse, it's still an option to avoid that competition. i know my personal returns vary heavily depending on how many other people are in there, so i'd gladly take a 10%-15% cut if it got me around potential competition. (i'd likely end up ahead)


objectively speaking (or as objective as i can be, as i clearly have a dog in this fight) i feel like it would be good for the overall dynamis ecosystem.

[Motenten]

The current idea is that raising the proc rate on mage from 8% to ~15% (effectively 2x the proc chances as current, though it's not quite the same thing) would be fairly sufficient to address the problem of balancing total proc rates vs JAs.

If, instead, enspells could proc, we'd have to look at the frequency at which enspells could be applied. Best (or worst, depending on perspective) case: Kraken Club with haste/Marches (~65% haste, depending on the brd), which is about 4 hits every 92 delay, or one hit every 23 delay. [Edit: scratch samba, as that would conflict with enspells; duh]

In other words, going from 1 attempt per 4 seconds to 2.5 attempts per 1 second, or 10 times as many chances. Frankly, that would be broken.

One could perhaps limit it to Enspell II's (so only one chance per round), though that obviously restricts it solely to main job rdm, and you'd still have a chance of up to about 1 swing per second using Joyeuse. Only a 4x increase in the number of chances to proc, but still likely considered unbalanced.

So to balance against those extremes while using enspells you'd have to lower the proc rate further, which makes magic procs for non-enspells even worse unless there's a way to separate out the 'type' of magic used to proc (which may certainly be the case, since enspells have 0% chance right now).

And even assuming you *do* separate out enspell proc rate chances, and make use of normal enspells, you still have about a 3x range in the rate of proc attempts that can be made (varying from basic haste to max, depending on buffs, as well as DA/TA/etc). JAs have fixed timers which restrict the rate; WSs are limited by TP building and how quickly you kill the mob; magic doesn't have either of those, which means you have to use a proc rate value that's suitable for a wide range of potential factors. If you choose a rate for the best case, then anyone without a Kraken Club is screwed over.

[Doombringer]

well, wouldn't some of those builds be extreme overkill? seeing as you can only proc a mob once anyway. once it's "good enough" you would be more concerned about killspeed, and a lot of multi-hit weapons are out of style for that.


though i take your larger point, tying proc rate directly to melee speed via enspell could end up WAY out of sync with normal magic. but since normal magic is considered "useless" now anyway, is it so bad if it gets left behind?

[Luvbunny]

whatever happened to the idea of allowing enspells to proc magic weaknesses? if enspells proced magic weakness; RDM would become the magic proc diva job. just like WS has pup and JA has dnc. any job that could effectively sub rdm would also benefit (pld? blu?), just like how many jobs benefit from subbing dnc now.

I dont think they want PLD, RDM or BLU to be more useful. I think it's fantastic idea and quite amazing, it should be implemented pronto with 15% activation rate. If this happens, you can have Rdm/sch and your any melee buddy to have some fun in dynamis. Or your Sch/Rdm friend to have some fun as well. But noooooo, if it is useful for the players, and if it makes RDM useful again, then the idea should be killed. That's the general feedback I am getting from SE.

[Mirage]

I'd say just buff magic proc rate and leave it at that. As an interesting side note, it might make it viable to use ninjutsu to proc mages here and there. Nin/dnc wouldn't be stuck at JA procs either.

[Kincard]

I'm not sure the Kraken club argument works for two reasons:
1. Krakens clubs arn't exactly raining from the sky. While it's true dedicated (insert applicable job here) would get them, they still sell for 90M+ and I think it's a bit silly to balance an event around the assumption everyone has a weapon only a few people do.
2. You can already use Kraken club and/or shield mastery to get a ton of WS procs out fast anyway, and that's also pretty much tied to your melee speed, so how would it be any different on magic procs?

[Babekeke]

130 posts and noone seemed to pick up on the fact that the reason that magic and ws procs suck, is because they can be AOEd.

JA procs can't.

Magic and ws procs were nerfed because people were cleaving, and againg mobs to proc them fast and sweep an area. Now the only way to get a fair proc rate on them is to cleave/aga them.

[Kincard]

Actually, if I'm not mistaken you can Choke Breath to AoE JA proc on BST and such. How badly nerfed is AoE proccing anyway? I don't think I've seen it happen a single time before.

[Byrth]

In cities/outlands it's still entirely unnerfed. In CoP Dynamis you can only proc your target.

[Xilk]

In cities/outlands it's still entirely unnerfed. In CoP Dynamis you can only proc your target.

You are a bit mistaken. They nerfed the accuracy terribly, but it is not gone. I have double proc'd w/ a single pet ready move perhaps 2x since the nerf.

[Byrth]

Do pet TP moves proc JA or WS weaknesses? I know I Aeolian Edged quite a few monsters after the nerf and never saw a double proc.

[Motenten]

I've double-proc'd using weaponskills on Pup (Spinning Attack), as well as proc'd mobs that weren't the main target. It's rare, but it happens.

[Xilk]

Ready Abilities count as JA
Pup attachments count as WS
SMN BP's count as magic (even if they are physical, which is kinda silly imo)