Adjustments to Embrava and Perfect Defense [Archive]

Camate

10-24-2012, 04:03 AM

Caketime

10-24-2012, 04:26 AM

I would pay real money to see the community reps get facerolled by ADL. Bonus for saying afterward that everything is working as intended.

Mnejing

10-24-2012, 04:27 AM

The title has a typo "Pefect Defense".

Daniel

10-24-2012, 04:31 AM

Thanks SE, as if it wasn't already hard enough to get Botulus to drop my stupid Katana, now I'll never see it. R.I.P. Mul.

The problem with Legion isn't the monsters, the problem is how long it takes to do Buffs. Also Embrava is useless now, no one needs refresh, 25% haste can easily be supplied by a bard, and regen never made a difference in legion...

Cowardlybabooon

10-24-2012, 04:36 AM

Well we knew the nerf was coming, but at least there was some consideration for content. I didn't love being dependent on 2 abilities anyways.

Sargent

10-24-2012, 04:47 AM

Besides the above content, Perfect Defense and Embrava are utilized for Arch Dynamis Lord and Provenance Watcher; however, the battle times for these monsters are relatively short, so we would like to monitor the battle situation at their current difficulty.

Can I just point out that the reason the battle time for ADL is short is because if it's not dead by the time PD is off, you are. Most times I have done ADL, any kind of support we have gets slaughtered by the massively damaging AoEs that have a massive range. I can't even use Pet Commands without being in range of almost everything, that range however is much smaller than magic casting range, which is still deep within it's AoE range. ADL needs to be adjusted.

Tile

10-24-2012, 04:48 AM

Instead of changing the Regain to Refresh should have just added Faith that would give Fast Cast, MAB and Refresh. Have it and Embrava override each other so you can't have both up.

Hashmalum

10-24-2012, 04:50 AM

Minor HP adjustments to some of the the mobs? That's it for mob changes? Seriously? Perfect Defense is being nerfed and yet nothing is being done about the "vomit horrible steaming death every 5 seconds" nature of the higher end mobs? That seems a bit... unbalanced.

MarkovChain

10-24-2012, 04:51 AM

Chimerawizard

10-24-2012, 04:58 AM

Perfect Defense:

Effect duration: Currently 90 seconds → Adjusted to 30 seconds. +1 sec for every 20 summoning skill points, maximum of 60 seconds with 600 skill (30 seconds +30 seconds)
Effect: No change

I hope you understand that 600 SMN skill is impossible to reach with all the gear and merits combined. I tried to math out the max possible skill in a gearset: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/276735
I can't even reach 550 skill with that. How does your source expect anyone to hit 600 skill?

Also, what about embrava and perfect defense was game breaking that needed duration nerfs?
I expected Perfect Defense to have a nerf of @500 skill: 50% Damage taken stacks with Damage Taken gear. (effectively nerfing it to help but not be nearly as huge as before) Duration unchanged.
I expected embrava to be nerf'd with regain will be removed and haste cap'd at 25%. the rest unchanged.
Duration changes on these 2hr spells makes them near useless, akin to NIN 2hr.

Sargent

10-24-2012, 05:06 AM

I hope you understand that 600 SMN skill is impossible to reach with all the gear and merits combined. I tried to math out the max possible skill in a gearset: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/276735
I can't even reach 550 skill with that. How does your source expect anyone to hit 600 skill?

Currently, the maximum duration for PD that is obtainable is 57 seconds since the maximum skill obtainable is 542. Still screws most people over on killing ADL.

For reference:
Kirin's Pole - 12 max
Vox Grip - 3
Caller's Horn +2 - 9
Caller's Pendant - 9
Summoning Earring - 3
Aptus Earring - 2 max
Anhur Robe - 12
Summoner's Bracers +2 - 15
Evoker's Ring - 10
Fervor Ring - 4
Astute Cape - 5
Cimmerian Sash - 5
Ngen Seraweels - 10
Rubeus Boots - 10

I can see Marduk's Tiara +1 having at least 10 skill, and Marduk's Shalwar/Crackows +1 having just under 10 skill. Still nowhere near enough to cap PD.

Waldrich

10-24-2012, 05:09 AM

Gogogo Resolution Nerf incoming soon.

Registeel

10-24-2012, 05:24 AM

Gogogo Resolution Nerf incoming soon.
Please please please don't give them any more ideas, please

Yarly

10-24-2012, 05:28 AM

just in time for ffxiv relaunch! how "convenient" indeed

Aldersyde

10-24-2012, 05:37 AM

Chimerawizard

10-24-2012, 05:39 AM

Well, bst pets can supposedly get th+ through gear...except the gear doesn't exist and sounds like it will never exist. Hard to feel sorry for you son.

Sucks when the devs troll your job isn't it?
I have BST99 and I read about that a while back. It was funny to me since I've never put any faith in TH to begin with.

Caketime

10-24-2012, 05:58 AM

Gogogo Resolution Nerf incoming soon.

Lmfao, I can't wait for this.

Sarick

10-24-2012, 06:10 AM

So people will do legion even less (noone does it already, fail content), F80 nyzul is nearly impossible, and ADL is farmable only with 500 ish skill on your SMNs. I would suggest to at least double the drop rate on odious items that are used to pop ADL. Also suggesting to put 2 ??? at ADL pop NMs to speed things up.

Cry me a river! You promoted these nerfs like it was the second coming of Christ. You ASK for this. You helped dig the grave for yourself and others so please just accept the reputation you've created posting this (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/28069-Perfect-defense-embrava-unbalance?p=369831&viewfull=1#post369831).

Also who clicked like on the rep. Nice seeing that people don't know what they really want.

Llana_Virren

10-24-2012, 06:21 AM

I would pay real money to see the community reps get facerolled by ADL. Bonus for saying afterward that everything is working as intended.

Its the developers saying that it is working as intended. The community reps are simply responsible for pushing that information to the player base. Just so you know.

Caketime

10-24-2012, 06:25 AM

Its the developers saying that it is working as intended. The community reps are simply responsible for pushing that information to the player base. Just so you know.

I know what I said, I don't need you to attempt to correct me.

Shikaidaio

10-24-2012, 06:27 AM

What?
This adjustment makes no sense at all. The content no the two hours are properly scaled in the slightest bit. The difficulty of the events were barely changed but the two hours are nearly useless as of now. Also, why are Watcher and ADL unaffected? These events are going be unmanageable as of now considering they have tier IVs and other moves that need the full use of these 2hours. While some decrease in strength is in order the Regain -> Refresh adjustment isn't in the slightest bit logical.
Are we going see further nonsensical adjustments in the future?

Mighty Strikes: Affected duration 45 seconds to 15 seconds. Adds Int.
Benediction: No longer restores HP.
Soul Voice: No longer enhances song effects. Adds accuracy.

Do not adjust the 2hours, that is all.

Llana_Virren

10-24-2012, 06:29 AM

I know what I said, I don't need you to attempt to correct me.

I didn't try to correct -what- you said. But since everyone keeps calling for the heads of the community reps it isn't an unfair point to make that they have just as much control over game mechanics as we do.

That said, "meh."

Caketime

10-24-2012, 06:32 AM

I didn't try to correct -what- you said. But since everyone keeps calling for the heads of the community reps it isn't an unfair point to make that they have just as much control over game mechanics as we do.

That said, "meh."

I didn't call for anyone's head, I simply stated that I would pay money to see the reps get rolled by ADL and never specified where the "working as intended" comment would come from, but I assumed we were all on the same page in that the developers make the decisions.

Meh indeed.

Llana_Virren

10-24-2012, 06:35 AM

I didn't call for anyone's head, I simply stated that I would pay money to see the reps get rolled by ADL and never specified where the "working as intended" comment would come from, but I assumed we were all on the same page in that the developers make the decisions.

Meh indeed.

I'd rather watch the dev team give it a shot, on 360s, outside of laboratory conditions.

Caketime

10-24-2012, 06:36 AM

i suggested Community Reps because we all know the devs don't play.

Onimeonokyo

10-24-2012, 06:38 AM

This is a bit too much, alot of current content is barely winnable even with the crutch of the current 2hrs. Such severe nurfs will only make more content and gear inaccessible to players. And return SMN and SCH to their earlier pariah status as they have little use outside of their current 2hours.

Helel

10-24-2012, 06:48 AM

Uh, what the hell at changing regain to refresh. Way to screw over rangers who at least wanted SOME benefit from the spell. Now embrava is completely useless to them. You could have at least reduced the haste value more and kept the regain.

Siiri

10-24-2012, 06:49 AM

Smn nerf is fine. Sch may be a bit harsh but something needed to be done about embrava. The adjustments to content need to be reevaluated. It doesn't address the issues as to why people need PD and embrava.

Zuidar

10-24-2012, 06:55 AM

Greetings everyone!

Embrava:

Effect duration: Currently 5 minutes → Adjusted to 90 seconds
Haste: Currently 1% increase for every 15 enhancing skill points → Adjusted to 1% increase for every 20 enhancing skill points. Maximum of 25% at 500 skill
Regain Effect: While the value will remain unchanged, the Regain effect will be changed to Refresh.

Perfect Defense:

Effect duration: Currently 90 seconds → Adjusted to 30 seconds. +1 sec for every 20 summoning skill points, maximum of 60 seconds with 600 skill (30 seconds +30 seconds)
Effect: No change

Along with the above adjustments, the content that featured these abilities heavily into their strategies will see adjustments as well.

Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey
We'll be reducing the number of Astrariums necessary to exchange for equipment from 25 to 5.
*As a result of this, the number of Astrariums players have in possession will be reduced by 1/5.

The idea that you'll need some luck on your side to reach level 100 will not change. While we expect that the number of floors reachable and the frequency will decrease due to the adjustments to Embrava, we decided to balance this by reducing the number of Astrariums required for equipment.

Legion
Monster HP will be reduced by around 10%

This will be applied to all monsters, and adjusted so the overall pace will become faster making it possible to defeat close to the same amount of monsters as before within the 30 minutes time limit.

Einherjar
Odin's Chamber II: Odin's HP will be reduced by around 10-15%.

As this is different from Legion and only a single monster battle, we will be adjusting the HP on a slightly larger range.

Besides the above content, Perfect Defense and Embrava are utilized for Arch Dynamis Lord and Provenance Watcher; however, the battle times for these monsters are relatively short, so we would like to monitor the battle situation at their current difficulty.

All of these adjustments will be implemented during the Test Server update this week, but we will continue to look at balance and make adjustments as needed.

my thoughts on Embrava changes: I really think that changing the effects of the Regain to Refresh would render 1 part of Embrava useless for our DDs because of this change. infact it's gonna be rendered completely useless for DDs apart the Regen effect that hasn't changed. It would if been fine if they lowered the effect of regain and kept it instead of refresh

My thoughts on Perfect Defense:
+1 sec for every 20 summoning skill points, maximum of 60 seconds with 600 skill

After seeing the above quote, I want to say is that I don't know or don't understand where you got the
600 skill Idea from. At the moment, there aren't any means to even get to 600 skill for summoning magic, I'd like to add that there aren't any other skills in magic that could break the out of the 500 cap because from my understanding that one of them such as enhancing magic effects were capped at 500 skill. I don't understand them giving us this if 600 skill doesn't exist.
I really don't think anyone would want to hear examples that doesn't exist or will not exist ( IE Pet Treasure Hunter gear)

For nyzul isle: Now I see that this change is good, however the main
problemwere the Order Lamp floors which take the majority of time off than any other objectives, which wastes our tag This needs to be changed.
Because of the changes of Embrava, you're taking away a big part our own skill and still leaving the luck part as is. It has to be looked on.

for legion: by just lowering all monster's HP by 10% is a bit less of a trade-off at the expense of our performance of our abilities that's being balanced. I really think so.

Plasticleg

10-24-2012, 06:56 AM

So glad the DEVs don't play this game. Must be nice not knowing how great is their fail.

Waldrich

10-24-2012, 07:01 AM

I'm only waiting for next update to determine if Square Enix is or not a competent company. if they fail completly to satisfy playerbase, I'll quit for sometime.

Rezeak

10-24-2012, 07:06 AM

Legion will become alot easier.

Basically
DRKs will still hit 80% haste w/ Embrava + Haste (will still be able to full time cause you can lock SCHs 2hr)
You can kill most mob without Perfect Defense and the one you need PD can be killed in 60ish secs with a -10% hp loss.

Meaning same buffs but less hp on bosses.

Still doesn't fix legions main problem of excluding all but hardcore players and the amount of organization required is not worth the rewards.

====================

Nyzle

Basically if ya don't get 100 before this nerf then nyzle will become even harder.

w/o full time embrava (and the loss of regain) 80 will be as hard as 100 easily.

Still doesn't fix that 20-60 bosses are nothing more than a time sync and that the people that "cheated" have a huge advantage over legit and newer players. Though the player base already told you this X1000.

I'll say it again Nyzle is an amazing way that Square enix has punished legit and newer players. So this will just make the gap bigger.

===================

Odin

never did V2 cause it didn't drop anything outside of town gear which isn't worth keeping 18ish+ people organized for a 2 x a week event.

newmonkey

10-24-2012, 07:07 AM

Lmfao, I can't wait for this.

Maybe we all should call for some bst nerfs then while were on.

Caketime

10-24-2012, 07:14 AM

Maybe we all should call for some bst nerfs then while were on.

We don't need a nerf, we're already below the bottom of the barrel.

Fredjan

10-24-2012, 07:15 AM

I will start this post with a disclaimer saying that I agree PD and Embrava needed to be adjusted. They were abused to the extent that most people did not consider events to be potentially successful without these abilities.

Since I'm a Scholar, I'll cover the proposed Embrava changes.

First off, they are too extreme. They've gone and changed a spell that had amazing potential to the extent where NO ONE will use it. All of the changes involving Tabula Rasa (seriously, how many Scholars know they have Kaustra? No one even talks about it. It's all about Embrava) are essentially being labeled worthless at this point.

I'll cover the current effects of Embrava.

Regen - up to 72HP/tick at 497+ skill.
Regain - 6TP/tick at 500+ skill.
Haste - ~34% Haste at 500+ skill.
Duration - 5 minutes (up to 12 minutes and 30 seconds with Perpetuance and Savant's Bracers +2).

I agree the Haste needed some changing, as that was probably the most broken ability of this two-hour spell to the point where that and the Haste spell capped your magic haste (something around there, anyway -- to the point where Bard's Marches weren't useful). The other broken part was the duration. While that won't be noticed doing something such as Arch Dynamis Lord and Provenance Watcher, it had the greatest effect on Legion and Nyzul Isle Uncharted since they are thirty-minute timed events where every second counts against you. If you had two Scholars using Embrava, you could have the effect up the entire time, refreshing the effect before Tabula Rasa wears off.

While Scholar does retain usefulness regardless of the direction this nerf goes, it won't be as dependant on their two-hour.

I'd be more willing to accept a change that disabled Perpeutance with the spell while retaining the current effects of Embrava. I'd also accept the proposed Haste changes, but retaining Regen and Regain. No one is going to ask a Scholar for Embrava so they can get up to an extra 6MP/tick Refresh...that's seriously a huge joke.
They've proved they can do this, I direct you to the level 80 > 85 cap update. It's called: "Accession will not be compatible with the spell Haste."

Boom, that adjusts the duration "brokenness". While I will agree that the changes to the number of KIs in Nyzul Isle Uncharted is well-welcomed, I heavily doubt nerfing Embrava is the only reason for this change. It's a change that should've existed to begin with, 25x is NOT going to encourage ANYBODY to choose F80 over F100. 5x may do this, but again, most will want to aim for 100 for the chance at extra gear + guaranteed linen coin purse. Oh, and getting F80+ without Embrava is indeed possible, one of the first groups to go to 100+ didn't have a Scholar at ALL. It just ended up being more consistent with Embrava and the fact Scholar offers longer duration spells with Perpetuance. That still ensures Scholar is the preferred Nyzul Isle Uncharted healer.

Giselda

10-24-2012, 07:17 AM

We don't need a nerf, we're already below the bottom of the barrel.

You've obviously never played RDM to endure all of its usefullness and nerfs now.

newmonkey

10-24-2012, 07:20 AM

We don't need a nerf, we're already below the bottom of the barrel.

So why call for a nerf to reso ? Drk finally gets a ws what makes the job relevant again.

Dont even give me crap about mighty strikes reso which is done via a 2 hour.

Eitherway calling for a reson nerf at this point, is just been childish.

Caketime

10-24-2012, 07:23 AM

So why call for a nerf to reso ? Drk finally gets a ws what makes the job relevant again.

Dont even give me crap about mighty strikes reso which is done via a 2 hour.

Eitherway calling for a reson nerf at this point, is just been childish.

I didn't call for anything, I just quoted an obvious joke and went along with it.

Also, I do have RDM. It is retired.

newmonkey

10-24-2012, 07:24 AM

Fair enough.

MarkovChain

10-24-2012, 07:26 AM

just in time for ffxiv relaunch! how "convenient" indeed

You are 6 month early the alpha didn't even start. There will be salvage before that.

Eric

10-24-2012, 07:30 AM

All I'm going to say is that I'm glad I started gearing up COR recently.

MarkovChain

10-24-2012, 07:33 AM

Not sure what cor has to do with the QQ. COR buffs are vastly inferior to bard in the first place. There is no way it's going to be *needed* in nyzul or adl.

Monchat

10-24-2012, 07:38 AM

Each time there is a nerf I think the dev can't do worse, but they keep surprising me.

Effect duration: Currently 5 minutes → Adjusted to 90 seconds
Haste: Currently 1% increase for every 15 enhancing skill points → Adjusted to 1% increase for every 20 enhancing skill points. Maximum of 25% at 500 skill
Regain Effect: While the value will remain unchanged, the Regain effect will be changed to Refresh.

ok long awaited nerf to embrava. a little overkill. but do you guys realize that embrava is now useless? 25% magical haste for 1:30, for 3:15 with af3+3 gloves. You guys do know that BRD's 2xmarch give MORE haste, last LONGER, can be FULL TIMED. The only semi-usefull aspect is that embrava is undispellable. The regen and refresh could be semi-useful in 3min duration too but ... there ya go!! BRD's ballads gives 9 MP/tic INDEFINATELY w/o any form of 2H. It gives 18 MP/tic with HQ bard (relic+empy) INDEFINATELY. It gives 36 MP/tic for 10MINUTES during soul voice. Yeah: embrava is useless if you keep those stats.

Effect duration: Currently 90 seconds → Adjusted to 30 seconds. +1 sec for every 20 summoning skill points, maximum of 60 seconds with 600 skill (30 seconds +30 seconds)
Effect: No change

Ok more proof the devs have no idea. The max skill achievable with ultra rare items like Shantoto mini scenario's aptus earring (once a day BCNM, 1/100000000 to get it), is :..... 537. It's easy to get ~500 with abyssea/dynamis gear, but come on. this change to perfect defense changes NOTHING. Why? people will STILL use PD. So nothing changed except you managed to piss off your players even more. People were axpecting a change to CONTENT.

You need to change ADL. I'm going to state it clearly: people use perfect defense because it's needed. The fights are 1:30 long because that's the duration of PD. As soon as PD wears off you are dead. period.

Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey
We'll be reducing the number of Astrariums necessary to exchange for equipment from 25 to 5.
*As a result of this, the number of Astrariums players have in possession will be reduced by 1/5.

The idea that you'll need some luck on your side to reach level 100 will not change. While we expect that the number of floors reachable and the frequency will decrease due to the adjustments to Embrava, we decided to balance this by reducing the number of Astrariums required for equipment.

Reaching floor 80 with the new adjustement is harder that floor 100 before lol. Once again nothing changed, you made player's experience even more miserable. I want to bang my head on a wall each time I do nyzul. But I have to because I'm hardcore player. I dont know how someone could have thought it was a good idea to have an even where 90%+ of the time you exit w/o any progress. Well now it's 99% of the time you lose (you can only do 300 per year btw...)

So... I will have to do nyzul isle before the nerf because 5% win rate is better than 1% ...

Only comment I'll do about legion is... 10% HP will change nothing. Make rewards better, and change mob's attack power... seriously.

Lastly, you just nerfed SMN and SCH to oblivion (almost), will you give them somthing to compensate? Because shock squall and stun locking are the only specificity of SMN and SCH now.

bigdave

10-24-2012, 07:48 AM

man i love the fact that se has completely made my 2 emperian weapons useless my relic dagger useless and now is ruining smn and sch whats next take away chain spell from rdm or singing from bards

Sp1cyryan

10-24-2012, 07:51 AM

Greetings everyone!

As was previously mentioned, with the addition of the new special abilities as well as the shortening on the cool down timers for the current special abilities, we are planning to adjust the effects of both Embrava and Perfect Defense. The adjustments will be reflected in this week’s Test Server update, but I’d like to share the information with you beforehand.

Embrava:

Effect duration: Currently 5 minutes → Adjusted to 90 seconds
Haste: Currently 1% increase for every 15 enhancing skill points → Adjusted to 1% increase for every 20 enhancing skill points. Maximum of 25% at 500 skill
Regain Effect: While the value will remain unchanged, the Regain effect will be changed to Refresh.

Perfect Defense:

Effect duration: Currently 90 seconds → Adjusted to 30 seconds. +1 sec for every 20 summoning skill points, maximum of 60 seconds with 600 skill (30 seconds +30 seconds)
Effect: No change

Along with the above adjustments, the content that featured these abilities heavily into their strategies will see adjustments as well.

The Dev team can not have it both ways.

You can not make a useful ability to allow rejected jobs access into an event and then take the ability back when it was the only thing getting said job into the event.

Do you really think after years it is time to adjust perfect defense? SMN is just about the most undesired job in this game without perfect defense. Its buffs are not worth the party spot, its DD is not worth a spot in the party, and besides that it really can not do anything no other job can not fulfill in a party setting.

Once more this returns astral flow to being just about worthless since Odin does worthless damage to NMs 99% of the time. But of course there will be no Odin buff. Astral flow for SMN can just be to kill the IT mob that aggroed you and hope Odin does not miss.

Maybe if you do not want players to rely on a small sect of jobs for a single strategy to do an event over and over again you should not make the monsters capable of going ape sh** and killing people with a single blow.

Do you really think players want to spend the time gathering together for Prov. Watcher to then go lose? What a waste of time is that? No one wants to go through all the previous work to then get to the end for a "sorry try it all again" that is just garbage. People will rely on whatever strategy produces the best results.

Take walk of echos for example. There is a simple reason people all go on pet jobs. You gave the mobs annoying/deadly TP moves. Do you really expect anything else? People want a way around the shenanigans.

YOU, the Dev team have gotten upset time and time again over players not playing the game the way you wish.

We have had

*"Throw more BLM at it"
Devs: Design around that.

*"Have the tank kite the NM"
Devs: Enfeebling resistance and draw in.

*"Have the BRD tank because it holds hate"
Devs: Nerf the enmity on Mazurka

*"Buff a bunch of DRKs to go souleater the NMs"
Devs: Give mobs souleater resistance.

*"Lets try to kill AV with Modius Veritas since we can not kill it since the souleater nerf"
Devs: Nerf Modius Veritas back to the stone age.

*"Throw MNKs and WARs at it"
Devs: Nerf Victory smite and Ukos Furry

*"Embrava so the DDs can be at their strongest and win more"
Devs: Nerf Embrava

*"This move rips our faces off lets try and provide cover to not rapidly wipe"
Devs: Nerf Perfect Defense

*"BSTs, the job people do not generally take to group events has a TH one above /THF and four below what a THF can get. Lets go solo Dynamis."
Devs: Nerf TH lower than if the BST subs THF.

So on and so forth.

Why is it when players find a way to win a harder event you say that is not acceptable and adjust it? Should you guys just put out a list telling us what are acceptable tactics and what are not?

Oh wait, I am sorry. You guys are the ones who put out the "hint" video for how to defeat AV that used RDMs spamming dispel, bind, etc for hate and then nerfed the hate from those spells.

The Dev team is too much.

In the end perfect defense should be just about as long as it is now.

In regards to embrava the durations should not be reduced by more than half the current duration, and either the haste or the regain should stay the same. I would imagine half duration with no regain and the same haste is sufficient a nerf as it is. You have a reputation for taking it too far when players are not winning the way you want them to as it is.

Zirael

10-24-2012, 08:01 AM

MAny people have pointed this out already, but to counter Perfect Defence and Embrava, a lot of the content you have added within last 1.5 year has AoE-2000-damage spells/abilities, AoE Death, Breakga, Paralyga, Zombie, Amnesiaga and what not. You can get 1-shotted by Arch Dynamis Lord (or, for example, Apademak) from so far, that you aren't even able to see the enemy (if your graphics settings are set to-medium/low) and there is not even chat log message saying who and what hit you (there was a post by devs awhile ago saying they can't let you know what killed you from outside 30' because it would increase server load, hahaha). The problem is not in enemies having 10% more HP, the problem is in them doing heavy AoE damage over and over again (ADL, Legion, Ig-Alima, Pandemonium Warden and so on). Meddling with Perfect Defence but not touching Tera Slash? Good joke.
You will need to either remove 1-shot abilities or increase duration of Sentinel's Scherzo (for those without Gjallarhorn and/or Carnwenhan) past ~2min and also Earthen Armor's.

As for Embrava, people will just revert back to BRDs rotating Marches. This nerf, however can't be remedied so easily in Nyzul Isle. You will need a Durdabla99 (March+Paeon) and either SCH or COR to compensate for loss of Regen/Regain/Haste. At this point only people who don't fleehack or run through walls and new /returning players don't have F100 gear. You're telling them to go make Empy Harp to have a chance of hitting F80 FIVE TIMES instead of one F100? Talk about change for the better... You'd need to change the random ??? jump to 3-10 or better, to compensate loss of Embrava.
Good grief, what a mess.

Waldrich

10-24-2012, 08:15 AM

The Dev team can not have it both ways.

You can not make a useful ability to allow rejected jobs access into an event and then take the ability back when it was the only thing getting said job into the event.

Do you really think after years it is time to adjust perfect defense? SMN is just about the most undesired job in this game without perfect defense. Its buffs are not worth the party spot, its DD is not worth a spot in the party, and besides that it really can not do anything no other job can not fulfill in a party setting.

Once more this returns astral flow to being just about worthless since Odin does worthless damage to NMs 99% of the time. But of course there will be no Odin buff. Astral flow for SMN can just be to kill the IT mob that aggroed you and hope Odin does not miss.

Maybe if you do not want players to rely on a small sect of jobs for a single strategy to do an event over and over again you should not make the monsters capable of going ape sh** and killing people with a single blow.

Do you really think players want to spend the time gathering together for Prov. Watcher to then go lose? What a waste of time is that? No one wants to go through all the previous work to then get to the end for a "sorry try it all again" that is just garbage. People will rely on whatever strategy produces the best results.

Take walk of echos for example. There is a simple reason people all go on pet jobs. You gave the mobs annoying/deadly TP moves. Do you really expect anything else? People want a way around the shenanigans.

YOU, the Dev team have gotten upset time and time again over players not playing the game the way you wish.

We have had

*"Throw more BLM at it"
Devs: Design around that.

*"Have the tank kite the NM"
Devs: Enfeebling resistance and draw in.

*"Have the BRD tank because it holds hate"
Devs: Nerf the enmity on Mazurka

*"Buff a bunch of DRKs to go souleater the NMs"
Devs: Give mobs souleater resistance.

*"Lets try to kill AV with Modius Veritas since we can not kill it since the souleater nerf"
Devs: Nerf Modius Veritas back to the stone age.

*"Throw MNKs and WARs at it"
Devs: Nerf Victory smite and Ukos Furry

*"Embrava so the DDs can be at their strongest and win more"
Devs: Nerf Embrava

*"This move rips our faces off lets try and provide cover to not rapidly wipe"
Devs: Nerf Perfect Defense

*"BSTs, the job people do not generally take to group events has a TH one above /THF and four below what a THF can get. Lets go solo Dynamis."
Devs: Nerf TH lower than if the BST subs THF.

So on and so forth.

Why is it when players find a way to win a harder event you say that is not acceptable and adjust it? Should you guys just put out a list telling us what are acceptable tactics and what are not?

Oh wait, I am sorry. You guys are the ones who put out the "hint" video for how to defeat AV that used RDMs spamming dispel, bind, etc for hate and then nerfed the hate from those spells.

The Dev team is too much.

In the end perfect defense should be just about as long as it is now.

In regards to embrava the durations should not be reduced by more than half the current duration, and either the haste or the regain should stay the same. I would imagine half duration with no regain and the same haste is sufficient a nerf as it is. You have a reputation for taking it too far when players are not winning the way you want them to as it is.

Man, this and this 1 million of times...

Calatilla

10-24-2012, 08:18 AM

Just like to say thanks to the devs for making Embrava utterly useless, you said you were going to nerf it, not fucking kill it.

Ica

10-24-2012, 08:27 AM

you said you were going to nerf it, not fucking kill it.

There's no difference to SE.

Zuidar

10-24-2012, 08:29 AM

Embrava is dead to DD's now, it would seem they feel is not what they had in mind and with perfect defense combo, they would deem both exploitable in lots of events

Sargent

10-24-2012, 08:31 AM

Ok more proof the devs have no idea. The max skill achievable with ultra rare items like Shantoto mini scenario's aptus earring (once a day BCNM, 1/100000000 to get it), is :..... 542. It's easy to get ~500 with abyssea/dynamis gear, but come on. this change to perfect defense changes NOTHING. Why? people will STILL use PD. So nothing changed except you managed to piss off your players even more. People were axpecting a change to CONTENT.

ftfy. See here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/28187-Adjustments-to-Embrava-and-Perfect-Defense?p=371014&viewfull=1#post371014) for the list. But yea, it is incredibly stupid that BRD can put up more haste without an "SP ability" (since Tabula won't be on a 2hr timer anymore). At least make it so Embrava with 500 skill + Haste caps Magic Haste (so 28~29% Haste from Embrava)

Chimerawizard

10-24-2012, 08:31 AM

The Dev team can not have it both ways.

You can not make a useful ability to allow rejected jobs access into an event and then take the ability back when it was the only thing getting said job into the event.

*"Throw more BLM at it"
Devs: Design around that.

*"Have the tank kite the NM"
Devs: Enfeebling resistance and draw in.

*"Have the BRD tank because it holds hate"
Devs: Nerf the enmity on Mazurka

*"Buff a bunch of DRKs to go souleater the NMs"
Devs: Give mobs souleater resistance.

*"Lets try to kill AV with Modius Veritas since we can not kill it since the souleater nerf"
Devs: Nerf Modius Veritas back to the stone age.

*"Throw MNKs and WARs at it"
Devs: Nerf Victory smite and Ukos Furry

*"Embrava so the DDs can be at their strongest and win more"
Devs: Nerf Embrava

*"This move rips our faces off lets try and provide cover to not rapidly wipe"
Devs: Nerf Perfect Defense

*"BSTs, the job people do not generally take to group events has a TH one above /THF and four below what a THF can get. Lets go solo Dynamis."
Devs: Nerf TH lower than if the BST subs THF.

Everything in your post +++++. what do you want to bet the DEV team quit playing when they were told to nerf TP return on multi-hit weapon skills and all the other things that got nerf'd at about that same time.

Calatilla

10-24-2012, 08:37 AM

I don't get why the decided to change the regain effect to refresh, embrava is completely pointless for anything now. Taking some HP off a mob that can 1 shot you whenever is feels like it isn't adjusting content. You broke Embrava and reduced PD, at least nerf the mobs too.

Chimerawizard

10-24-2012, 08:39 AM

You've obviously never played RDM to endure all of its usefullness and nerfs now.
RDM is not at the bottom of the barrel.
It is in a casket, in the ground, riddled with worms.
It has been nerf'd, left to die, died, poked with a stick to make sure it's dead, shot in the head just to be sure, and burried.

Duzell

10-24-2012, 08:56 AM

RDM is not at the bottom of the barrel.
It is in a casket, in the ground, riddled with worms.
It has been nerf'd, left to die, died, poked with a stick to make sure it's dead, shot in the head just to be sure, and burried.

then dug up and its mummified remains shoved in a museum for people to gawk at.

Sp1cyryan

10-24-2012, 09:04 AM

then dug up and its mummified remains shoved in a museum for people to gawk at.

With a plaque that reads "Balance? You believed that? I bet you believed us when we said we scaled back the content you are using these two hour techniques for too. Lolz."

So will Terra Slash from ADL not melt our souls now?

Leonardus

10-24-2012, 09:05 AM

Looks like I completely wasted my time getting scholar up. This is...terrible. :/

Tptn937

10-24-2012, 09:28 AM

Please change your adjustments before implementing this on the test server.

Kincard

10-24-2012, 09:39 AM

The general direction of the nukes are fine I think, but as others have said, way, way too extreme.

PD: Make skill have slightly better effect. I think 1s for every 10 or 15 skill would be better instead. I think it's a good idea to keep PD only good for the SMNs that bother playing the job and skilling it up/gearing it instead of letting people have 50 SMN mules doing the heavy lifting for their group.

Embrava: Keep 5 minute duration if you have to nuke the effect a bit, at 90 seconds it is utterly worthless, even with a perfect perpetuance you're looking at a 225s duration (3 min 45 s). Just removing the regain effect would kill it pretty badly because that was one of the most important parts of its use in Neo Nyzul Isle, as you spend lots of time running around.

Personally though, I think the regain effect should be kept, and hell, even have the refresh effect on there, same duration but- make it weaker. Also, is anything happening to the regen effect on it?

Ophannus

10-24-2012, 09:49 AM

90 second Regen VI+Haste

Insaniac

10-24-2012, 10:01 AM

Holy shit~ Worst adjustments ever. They wouldn't be that bad if you adjusted the content properly but you went full lazy and did almost nothing. A truly pathetic attempt. Go back to the drawing board. The Embrava Nerf should be duration only and it should be 3 minutes base not 90 seconds. PD can stay ~60 seconds but you need to make thoughtful adjustments to content instead. For instance instead of throwing up your hands on ADL let me fix him for you right here.

Lower his AoE range to 15-20. 40+ IS ABSOLUTE INSANITY.
Completely separate the Enmity between him and his clone(s).
Increase the ready time of Terra Slash and Dynamic Implosion.
In general just make this fight less of a clusterf*ck. Being able to control and predict an opponents actions with decent gameplay is what makes interesting and fun fights.

I'll talk about legion for a second too I guess.

For Legion make adjustments to all of the monsters stats not just HP.
Reduce the crit penalty.
Introduce some sort of TE system for a max time of 45 minutes. A 5 minute TE per wave would make sense. Not including extra clears of wave 3.
The rewards from legion are not good enough to warrant the level of difficulty you have given it. I'm not saying change the rewards. I'm saying if the only thing you have in your yard to steal is a decent set of lawn furniture you probably don't need a 20 foot high fence topped with razor wire.

Chimerawizard

10-24-2012, 10:10 AM

90 second Regen VI+Haste
damn that's one nice spell, I'll have that on DD 24/7. wait, that's my 2hr ability. that regen better be 1000hp/tick and haste better break the magic haste cap by itself.

IvyKyori

10-24-2012, 10:35 AM

Hi, I think the devs over there don't realize that refresh does fuck-all for melee characters who normally have ZERO mp to begin with...

Thanks for making the one job I actually enjoy playing a complete joke.

Luvbunny

10-24-2012, 11:06 AM

It's like this - they let embrava to be awesome in the past two years because there were not that many events back then that required you bring multiple scholars to actually be able to complete it and make people depended heavily on the job (as well as PD). Back then most people did not yet realize how good the embrava 2 hours when they first implemented. When the majority of players actually realizing it and rejoicing the benefits, and paying costumers were able to complete contents that they designed to be incomplete able, this start putting fires in the developer's arse. Hence you see many of the multi nerfs that hit warrior, monk, beast master, and now scholar and summoner just to name a few. When people able to have fun, and access the content readily, they make sure the opposite happens. Instead of focusing in creating more contents for us to consume, they decided to halt consumption and make the game even more frustrating for the majority of the players.

shigen

10-24-2012, 12:07 PM

No big surprise here really. Been playing long enough to expect drastic measures any time something is "adjusted" by SE. In my experience there are only a select few events that when introduced did not need massive and in some cases repeated overhauls by SE to become enjoyable and playable content. I'm thankful for the playerbase who dissects new battles quickly, but usually disappointed by the fact that it's gonna be gimmicky or outright impossible at first without strict requirements.

It'll be interesting to see if this new guy and a skeleton crew can keep this game afloat with the pressure of a new expansion in the works, and who knows, maybe create some redeeming gameplay to counter the shitty stuff we've dealt with lately. Meeble Burrows is somewhat entertaining until you realize how small it is and ineffective as a stopgap (the concept of a short, intense dungeon crawl is great but it reeks of limited resources and intent to stall progress to create false longevity) to deliver something to a playerbase that is pretty discontent at the moment.

I wish the devs good luck, they're gonna need a helluva lot of it.

PS. While novel upon first use, primeval brews, fanatics drinks, and even perfect defense have got to be some of the worst game design decisions I've ever seen, particularly in an MMORPG.

Chimerawizard

10-24-2012, 01:00 PM

The game needs an overhaul.
Macros need to be at minimum 16 lines long; (mobs like to make people naked and when we're finally able to put things back on 3~4 macro's shouldn't be needed just to re-equip.
The enmity system; (not even gonna really touch on that; I don't know where to start)
attack, defense, mab, mdb, dt, pdt, mdt, etc need to be looked at to find out what needs re-worked.
the plethora of gear needs overhauled to be relevent after above-mentioned overhaul of systems.
weapon skills, skillchains, and magic burst needs adjustments so that it makes more sense.
weapon overhaul with the gear overhaul.
physican and magical damage calculations, enhancements, enfeeble effects, and cure(kinda done already) need to be math'd to make sure they fit into the new system.

the reason everyone hates so much about any 'fix' proposed is that they are always half-ass'd. (well in my case anyway)

Don't 'fix' anything til you can have the staff make adjustments to all the things player-side and create a program to check damage calculations on the monster side to make sure normal attacks don't go over a certain number, instant-KO moves are extremely rare, instant-wipe moves are removed from the game, and back to back moves normally won't instant-wipe either. Then test it, every aspect to make sure it's not just going to be another failure.

i'm sleepy so this was probably an overzealous post. w/e it's what I actually think.

about embrava not being known when it was first introduced, Perpetuance is a lv76 spell. so embrava really was not huge when it first came out since 30-40 regen, 2-3 regain, and 15-20 haste. after perpetuance was out, people had abyssea on the brain all the way through lv90, easy content is easy and SCH didn't bring what all low man groups want, max proc's per character.

Luvbunny

10-24-2012, 01:34 PM

Totally agree. They should instead focusing on adjusting those said content in the first place. The fact that you MUST have Embrava and PD to actually have a chance to complete it is beyond retarded. It's like they are not even thinking over there. They said they will adjust those events accordingly in response to these adjustment but when you actually read what they are planning to do, your head spin faster trying to comprehend the reason and logic. 10% HP adjustment???? really??? Not even considering what everyone been telling them that these NMs hit like a truck and pretty much guaranteed to one shot most of the players without PD on, wide AOE range, massive critical hit rate rendering your merit useless. All they are doing is adjusting the HP.... They deserve our wrath and massive trolling on the forum. They don't even care what the NA and European players think anyway, we don't exist, our opinions don't matter, we are just auto ATM for them paying monthly fees but with no voice when it comes to game decision.

Muras

10-24-2012, 01:35 PM

I apologise for such a lengthy post, and understand if most people just skip over it. If anything I hope at least some of what I say reaches the eyes of Mr. Matsui but I won't hold my breath.

I got so much to say I'm having a hard time sorting it all out in my own head. I've been a SCH for a very long time, long before even Abyssea came out. It's a job I truly enjoy playing, and when Matsui made his original post describing possible nerfs I was very happy to hear what he had to say. It sounded to me that he was more concerned with making the game playable and enjoyable than anything else. I was totally for a nerf to Embrava and Perfect Defence if it meant content would become more accessible to me and my few friends (As most others have quit...).

But you've done it wrong. That is to say, there isn't a single thing right with your adjustments. Camate, or someone, if you read my post I want you to keep in mind I'm writing this to my best ability to not insult the devs as you guys often ask. But as someone who takes game design very seriously himself, these terrible ideas and adjustments are incredibly angering and almost insulting. I understand very well that game design is art and there's bound to be disagreements between two artists, but what I find incredibly aggravating is that the FF11 devs seem to forget that they're not making this game for themselves, it's for other people. Game designers are like the chefs of video games, and like actual chefs who prepare food for others, they have to take into consideration the pallet and tastes of those they're preparing food for.

Do not tell me to wait and actually see what these adjustments are like. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about just because I'm speculating based on the information you gave me. Don't tell me that just because you're a designer and I'm the player that you're always right by default. Do not insult us, the players, who have played this game for years. Unless you're telling me that you're going to be completely revamping the battle system, we know EXACTLY how these adjustments are going to play out in practise.

With that out of the way, I'll get to the part where I explain why I disagree so much, and what I'd do differently if I actually had some influence (Which I and obviously every other player clearly don't have). I just want to clarify that the Embrava isn't my main concern, but rather the lack of adjustments to content. I'm just mentioning it first since that's the order Camate's post went in.

Embrava:
Effect duration: Currently 5 minutes → Adjusted to 90 seconds
Haste: Currently 1% increase for every 15 enhancing skill points → Adjusted to 1% increase for every 20 enhancing skill points. Maximum of 25% at 500 skill
Regain Effect: While the value will remain unchanged, the Regain effect will be changed to Refresh.

Ok so... I'll get right to the point. This spell is no longer worthy of being attached to the 2 hour, save for the Haste part. Although due to the duration it's practically worthless. I always hated the fact that the spell Embrava was tied to the 2 hour, but I could accept the reasoning behind it because the spell was very powerful.

If you're going to go this far with the spell, you might as well do it right. This is how I'd do it:

Embrava
Duration: 3 minutes
Regen: (Enhancing Skill / 10) +1 (51 HP at 500 skill)
Haste: (Enhancing Skill /100) +5 (10% with 500 skill, capped at 10%)
Refresh: (Enhancing / 150) +1 (4 at 500 skill)
MP Cost: 12.5% of max MP.
Usable at all times.

My reasoning for these adjustments are as follows.

1) Duration is 3 minutes because it's the perfect length, and goes along with other buffs in the game, and can be increased up to 7.5 minutes with Perpetuance. Simply put, this duration makes it usable and useful.

2) Regen is reduced because the spell isn't attached to the 2 hour anymore. I made it 51 HP because combined with Regen V and Empyrean +2 head it evens off at an nice healthy 120 HP/tick.

3) Haste is reduced and capped at 10% because Embrava isn't attached to the 2 hour anymore. I picked to cap it at 10% because it'll remain weaker than the actual Haste spell itself but remains stackable with Haste and BRD songs. It's also weaker than Haste itself because the spell has many other properties. Haste is one spell many SCHs wanted naturally and this is a good alternative.

4) Refresh is reduced because again, the spell is no longer attached to the 2 hour. I chose to make it 4 MP/tick at 500 skill to make it stronger than Refresh 1 but weaker than Refresh 2.

5) The cost of 20% of your max MP doesn't make sense for this spell anymore. It still remains quite costly at 12.5% though, especially when used with Accession.

In regards to the change from Regain to Refresh, this is fine as long as you make Adloquium suck less and make it give 2 TP/tick, preferrably 3. It's also my opinion that Regain from all sources should cap at around 5 because obviously Regain is a very powerful thing. Because stacking Regain from multiple sources is clearly worrisome to the devs, they've chosen to keep spells like Adloquium very useless. If we have a cap then we can have decent abilities and spells that give Regain, but have the choice to strategize which to use given the situation if we have those multiple sources available at one time (Which honestly doesn't happen much, I don't think I've ever been paired with a COR when playing as SCH, ever).

In regards to Kaustra, I've never been very impressed with it and thus feel you could take it off the 2 hour too. I think the damage it deals per tick is the initial damage/3 so it's really not much more potent than a regular helix in the long run, especially when AoE'd.

Perfect Defence:

Effect duration: Currently 90 seconds → Adjusted to 30 seconds. +1 sec for every 20 summoning skill points, maximum of 60 seconds with 600 skill (30 seconds +30 seconds)
Effect: No change

Still usable I guess, but like others have said 600 skill might be a little... Impossible. Only thing I can speculate is that you're releasing more Summoning Skill+ gear in the future with the new expansion. I'm still worried that you'll make content with mobs that hit as hard as trains though. Especially because of what you said next...

Along with the above adjustments, the content that featured these abilities heavily into their strategies will see adjustments as well.

Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey
We'll be reducing the number of Astrariums necessary to exchange for equipment from 25 to 5.
*As a result of this, the number of Astrariums players have in possession will be reduced by 1/5.

The idea that you'll need some luck on your side to reach level 100 will not change. While we expect that the number of floors reachable and the frequency will decrease due to the adjustments to Embrava, we decided to balance this by reducing the number of Astrariums required for equipment.

Legion
Monster HP will be reduced by around 10%

This will be applied to all monsters, and adjusted so the overall pace will become faster making it possible to defeat close to the same amount of monsters as before within the 30 minutes time limit.

Einherjar
Odin's Chamber II: Odin's HP will be reduced by around 10-15%.

As this is different from Legion and only a single monster battle, we will be adjusting the HP on a slightly larger range.

This right here tells me you just don't get it. Yes, mobs that die faster deal less damage, but that doesn't matter if we're all getting killed in the first place. Can't deal damage when you're dead and all. And that isn't even the biggest point. Your content that involves these monsters isn't fun. It's quite the opposite, which is weird because I'd imagine most people play this game to find entertainment of some kind. I'm sure some people really do really like this stuff though, but I'm pretty sure most people don't. I wish there was a way to satisfy everyone in the world, but it's just not possible. Things always fall apart when you try to "please everyone". Anyone who's taken any kind of basic marketing in college knows this.

Personally it's their lack of adjustments to content that bother me more than anything. Even as a SCH I wouldn't care much at all if they just outright removed the Embrava spell entirely. I'd much prefer proper adjustments to broken events.

Besides the above content, Perfect Defense and Embrava are utilized for Arch Dynamis Lord and Provenance Watcher; however, the battle times for these monsters are relatively short, so we would like to monitor the battle situation at their current difficulty.

I don't really want hand-me-outs and freebies, so I don't mean to say I want these mobs to be hilariously easy. But on the other hand, I want to be able to just casually reach my goals with my small group of friends. This means being able to somehow kill Arch Dynamis Lord with 3-4 people without Embrava or Perfect Defense.

So why not try this? Why not have every zone boss in every zone (Bastok, Windurst, San'd Oria, Jeuno, Beaucedine) drop a Rare/Ex item. Once you have all 5 on a single character, you can exchange them for a weakening item that can be used against Arch Dynamis Lord that lasts a specific amount of time. You can assume that a group of lesser geared/skilled players may need to use two or three of these items to keep Arch Dynamis Lord at bay while they kill him so a small group could take 1.5 to 2 weeks to build enough weakening items to kill him once or twice due to having to enter multiple different zones. Is this not satisfactory? It's much longer than the regular way but allows small groups to have an actual shot at getting their relics upgraded. If this isn't good enough then we as players need to know what on earth your criteria for balance is.

At the end of the day though, do I expect any of what I said to be considered? No, I don't. It's been very clear during the years that FF11 has been in existence that our voices only effect the smallest of details in FF11, and the devs do whatever they want. But I take the time to do this for the same reason people say you have no right to complain if you don't vote in an election; I have said my part before all of this is permanent and will have no regrets in the future.

Luvbunny

10-24-2012, 01:37 PM

PS. While novel upon first use, primeval brews, fanatics drinks, and even perfect defense have got to be some of the worst game design decisions I've ever seen, particularly in an MMORPG.

When they actually design content where you could employ a sane strategy instead of zerging, kill first or be killed in the first 2 mnts, maybe they will deserve our respect. As it is now, your options are zerg or die, use fanatics or wiped, even the level 99 limit break need PD for safe assumption you may win.

Nixxa

10-24-2012, 02:38 PM

Re-subscribed yesterday, re-canceled my subscription today. xD think this game needs a bit more time afterall haha. All I wanted was to come back and enjoy some of the FFXI content I grew up with, relieve some stress, hang out, and enjoy some fun endgame content. I was ok taking the good with the bad for the most part, simply taking breaks when I needed a breather or felt the game was headed in the wrong direction...but sadly pretty much all of the endgame content I was hoping to jump back into is just about to become absurdly complicated (not that it wasn't ridiculous to an extent already xD). Well, I got 29 days left of enjoyment to try and suck out of this game, after that I'll go back to lurking through forums and what not while I wait for the day FFXI gives me a reason to crave adding a few more hours to my playtime once again.

Winrie

10-24-2012, 02:40 PM

I've been playin this game for quite some time and I've seen about every nerf and banhammer there's been. I'm normally one to preach about not complaining about difficulty in this game but with all this shit I've read on nerf sticks to our most vital elements for victory against adl, nyzul ect, I'm going to say this to the devs, there's a difference in challenge with difficult obstacles to obtain victory over your foes and NEARLY F**KING IMPOSSIBLE. you cannot even tell me lowering mob hp yet not fixing their idiotically steriod infested power is BALANCED CONTENT. with a push of a button you make all this content WE USE EMBRAVA AND PERFECT DEFENSE SO MUCH ON BECAUSE IT'S FILLED WITH STUPID ONE SHOT MOVES AND MOBS THAT HIT LIKE 18 WHEELERS, even more difficult than they were with the damn spells up and active. I don't see the logic or how you guys can even remotely think this will end well. You guys forget you design this game for US NOT YOURSELVES. I'd say please take this entire thread full of negative outlook and reconsider what really needs to be fixed but judging on the past, SE will continue to always think it is right and the PAYING CUSTOMERS, WHETHER NEW OR CUSTOMERS THAT HAVE BEEN DEDICATED FOR THE PAST TEN YEARS, are wrong as usual until you finally are a bankrupt company. I pray you listen this time.

Dekar

10-24-2012, 02:49 PM

From looking at the post briefly it looks like the fan base is not happy with this update. I'm a little sad, I always thought these boards would give better communication between the Dev team and the players but it simply seems like the player's opinions are still second to the development team. I just think that's really sad.

Luvbunny

10-24-2012, 03:11 PM

So basically we now can use Embrava + PD and augment this with the following:
a. Summoners can do the following:
- Hastega (last 3-5 mnts) with additional 15% haste
- Noctoshield though Phalanx will be better from Scholar with maxed enhancing magic
- Earthen Ward
- Earthen Armor
- Inferno Howl for additional 40 damage per swing.
b. Scholar can do the following:
- Phalanxga with Ascencion + Perpetuance to last double the duration
- Regen 5 with Ascencion + Perpetuance
- Adloquium with Ascencion + Perpetuance
- Firestorm with Ascencion + Perpetuance for additional STR+7
c. Other jobs can do:
- Diffusion + Cocoon from Blue Mage
- Sentinel's Scherzo from Bard
- Double March from Bard
- Tactician's Roll from Corsair
- Boost STR from Whm

If anything now a good Summoner and Scholar will bring plenty of fun tools to reduce further damage on the melee DD party if you do it right - assuming those squishy mages are not dead within the first round of AOEs. And then you can swap them with Bard and Corsair accordingly. I wonder if they are going to swing another nerf bats to all those things above....

Babekeke

10-24-2012, 03:12 PM

So, PD duration reduced by (realistically) 40%... therefore, the mobs HP has been reduced by 10% in the name of balance.

I just hope that when people try this content on the test server they remember to leave their hacks turned off and do it properly to show that noone can even kill a single mob.

Vagrua

10-24-2012, 03:23 PM

Not to be rude to your corporation as a whole, but if your customers are pretty much telling you that they don't desire something changed and you are ignoring it or just don't care, it shows how much you value your playerbase/subscribers.

The response, if any, given back from the community reps to address this topic should pick their words very wisely. You've been walking on thin ice lately. It seems that instead of actually fixing issues within the game, you're choosing the easy shortcuts. :(

Luvbunny

10-24-2012, 04:00 PM

I wonder if this so called refresh effect is 1 mp per tick lol, and actually stack with sublimation, or stack with refresh + mage ballad. The least they can do is adjusting Adloquium to 3tp gain per tick with capped enhancing magic. This way they can say that they rebalance it without really taking away much since there are other ways to close the gap.

Spiriel

10-24-2012, 04:44 PM

Well, Camate did say:

Regain Effect: While the value will remain unchanged, the Regain effect will be changed to Refresh.

I'd assume that means the effect of Refresh will give the same amount that Regain gave per tick, not that anyone will care, what with it being Refresh.

All I read from his post was, "Embrava isn't gonna be very helpful anymore", regardless. Really hoping that they'll follow through with that promise they made about buffing sch and smn in some way to help define them as jobs, but given their track record, I'm not exactly holding my breath.

Afania

10-24-2012, 05:01 PM

Also, why are Watcher and ADL unaffected?

They already explained.

I'm not sure about ADL as I only done a few before. But for watcher, it probably wouldn't make THAT much of a difference. It's a nerf, for sure. But it probably shouldn't make watcher unbeatable.

Atm watcher is a 90 sec~120 sec zerg for average DDs with 100% win rate. Before nerf the buffs were embrava+ SV acc song x1+ attack song x3 with none empy BRD x2. So if there are any empy BRD, extra song slot doesn't offer much more with 2nd acc or 4th attack song. So if you go with an empy BRD, it offers pretty much the same amount of buff after nerf as long as the fight doesn't last too long. Watcher wouldn't suddenly become unbeatable without embrava.

Legion got a pretty big hit though, as we often only use 1 BRD. With uncapped acc and such, there are little extra song slot for march unless your BRD has 4 songs.

I honestly feel legion HP-10% isn't enough. It's evasion and defense, on top of AoE dmg should be nerfed. I'd much rather want their HP stays the same, but def/eva/AoE dmg got nerfed, rather than mere HP-10%.

Monchat

10-24-2012, 05:29 PM

Not to be rude to your corporation as a whole, but if your customers are pretty much telling you that they don't desire something changed and you are ignoring it or just don't care, it shows how much you value your playerbase/subscribers.

we all want things to change. The problem is that, as expected, they nerf PD and embrava and hardly fix content. They didn't realize yeat that people use PD/embrava because content is impossible without, not because they can.

Mayoyama

10-24-2012, 05:32 PM

Incoming SMN rotations needed to keep PD up for longer... rofl. Now people will be bringing 2 SMN to do what 1 SMN used to do!

Fully agree ADL needs to be adjusted....

Vagrua

10-24-2012, 06:08 PM

we all want things to change. The problem is that, as expected, they nerf PD and embrava and hardly fix content. They didn't realize yeat that people use PD/embrava because content is impossible without, not because they can.

There's different types of change going on lately though. There is no balance for events that rely solely on Embrava and the adjustments they've stated will make the content difficult if not impossible to complete. They're taking away our tools that allow us a chance at all at their Impossible To Gauge content. They refuse to adjust the content itself to remedy the problems. NNI and Legion probably will take the biggest hit. You would have to be extremely lucky just to hit floor 80 after they implement this. I already know of people that won't even attempt NNI after this. Legion is going to be even more difficult also.

noirin

10-24-2012, 06:29 PM

Frankly i don't see the point in this. The nerfs don't seem like they are required at all. As already stated,Embrava's primary use was for it's Regain and Haste, and honestly this seems like lopping the arm off of every scholar that's been enjoying their spotlight slots in NNI and Legion runs.

Not like it needs to be restated over and over again...oh wait, i'm on the forums, yes it does! you don't nerf player abilities when you design content that REQUIRES them to be completed.If you honestly must do such a thing, you nerf the content FIRST, then adjust the abilities if they are still showing signs of being overly powerful. Then again i'm talking to a Dev team that though BST would be head-over-heels excited at the prospect of eating their pets for RR, so I don't see alot of hope in them retracting this idea.

Vitus

10-24-2012, 07:50 PM

At the end of the day though, do I expect any of what I said to be considered? No, I don't. It's been very clear during the years that FF11 has been in existence that our voices only effect the smallest of details in FF11, and the devs do whatever they want. But I take the time to do this for the same reason people say you have no right to complain if you don't vote in an election; I have said my part before all of this is permanent and will have no regrets in the future.

With enough voice, I think we can definitely make them retract their plans. If everybody here tell your friends and ask them to bring in their friends to voice their concerns, we will be a very powerful force to be reckoned with.

Camiie

10-24-2012, 08:17 PM

With enough voice, I think we can definitely make them retract their plans. If everybody here tell your friends and ask them to bring in their friends to voice their concerns, we will be a very powerful force to be reckoned with.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyJustDidntCare

Secondplanet

10-24-2012, 08:20 PM

Sorry i don't know sch and not gonna talk out my ass like i do.

NO NO NO NO NO

Do not make it required to have 600+ summoning magic, cap is 417 then you add on some merits and gear and like many others said your only in about the 530's and i have decent gear and i'm around the 120 mark with the proper gear. It would be stupid to have a full set of gear for just 1 ability.

Also i've said it in other posts, you take away atomos and threw it into the wind so we don't even know where it is anymore, you took away cait sith stating that he's not complete (Its our first real update for summoner since the last 2 now completely uselss avatars)

Why don't you do something right for a change, how about you start by making odin/alexander regular summons and their 2hr ability would be the ability's of now?

And for all you rdm's who complain about being dead, AT LEAST YOU HAD A MOMENT IN THE SPOT LIGHT. Summoner never did, and chance and i mean anychance (astral parties and alexander) have been met with severe force by SE.

Concerned4FFxi

10-24-2012, 08:24 PM

Dear SE,
I am posting in reguards to your recent announcement with the intent this may reach your developement team. I'd like to say one thing very clearly, thru a short narration of my current ffxi life:

I used to play FFxi alot more than I currently do, I imagine I'm among many new and old players that have to balance fantasy and reality accordingly due to responsibilties and desires for personal and pleasurable growth in the real world. My ffxi life is about 2-3 days a week, and odd hours as lately (past few months) my statics have desolved and I am currently unable to restart a neo-nyzil one. I'm 2/15 Neo nyzil gear, and I desire 10+ from those sets. PD and embava were my hopes of attaining clears from einherjar 2 and neo-limbus, legion; all stuff I looked forward to doing in the future. I had plans to make a ls that was more lax than current endgame ls because like I said I have a rl too, and eventrs can be demanding. People who abused (in SE's opinion) the PD and embrava are ALWAYS going to figure a way around the orginal intent SE has for their whathaveyous. My point is, by nerfing you are FUCKING ME and everyone else in similiar boats as myself, your not hurting the ones you are trying to slow down, instead, your CRUSHING THE DREAMS OF MANY in order to stop the few from going too fast pace for your liking.

In other words, in order to slow down some people by nerfing these abilities you are: 1) willingly making other aspects of the game that were looked at by many as "i cant wait till i can do that, that's why i keep playing so i can do that one day" and taking that dream from them AND and the same 2) time pissing off people who didn't get thier chance everytime they see someone in neo gear that was attained via dataswap or embrava or pd pre nerf.

Do us a faVOR, fuck the next festival and get your priorities in order.

Concerned4FFxi

10-24-2012, 08:32 PM

I wont be surprised if people quit over this, my foots halfway out the door as it is, this just feels like a push to get my momentum going. Oh, and fyi, i dont give two szhits about the add on, there was plenty i wanted to do in the current game as it stands now. Sure, I'll welcome the expansion, but I'm just saying I was content with most of the bs from SE (they got fov and gov with different abilities like warp which is totally unbalanced, can't even put a fucking 5 icon on my nin shadow icon, i mean the list is huge, cant ws if the mob moves or u lose tp, i mean come on, this shit is a no brainer for those who play but your priorities are in the fucking clouds)

Zyla420

10-24-2012, 08:40 PM

Concerned4FFxi

10-24-2012, 08:47 PM

This is what SE thinks and I'm going to disagree I think it's an unwise bussiness decision:

SE thinks the top % of gamers/ls are moving thru content too fast, and once they finish they will quit because they will have nothing to do and be bored and leave- this I agree with, it's true in my book.

SE thinks nerfing PD and embrava are going to solve this, but I say, this is not 1990, people's patience have run out, you can't dangle a carrot, feed us the carrot, then take it all away and feed us shit, we just won't come back.

I say, there's more people going to quit after this nerf's been active 3 months + than have quit in quite some time. I believe once people see how bad the nerf is, a few months after its applied, people are going to quit because they just don't have the time for this shit anymore.

You will always have your people who will stay, will get 250 marrows and do after glow, but really how many people are doing that? One ls that I know of in the game on this board are doing afterglow on relics, for just one afterglow sett of 250 marrow you could buy EVERY relic instead. But hey, they are the 1%.

I say SE, let the people who wanna finish the race first GOOOOOOOO, stop trying to hold onto them
Let the rest of us breathe, let them who want to finish first go and stop sitting on my fucking chest, i've been loyal!

Concerned4FFxi

10-24-2012, 08:48 PM

Concerned4FFxi

10-24-2012, 08:53 PM

Last time I was almost this upset was after getting a bunch of BS level cap quests involving BS fetching and I was crushed by what I felt was a incredible lack of story and awesomeness that goes into a level cap. You had a working system at 75, with lots of lore and well thought out stuff even if it didnt work, just look at evoliths and how detailed that failure was. Then, you got 75-95 was BS cap crap, of go get some seals man, it's the bro-cap quests man. I'm fucking high, woooooh, fuck the story man i dont need story, you want story and lore, check back pre 75 brotha, we dont do story now, just gonna crame this crap down your mouth till the expansion comes out cause I dont respect my clients, cause I'm PIMP SE, and I'll feed you whatever I want and you'll like it, take it like a bitch and want more.

Concerned4FFxi

10-24-2012, 08:55 PM

SE:
"get with the program, spill the hate, JP onry, eat this shit and like it bitches"

Mirage

10-24-2012, 09:03 PM

What Perfect Defence really should have been adjusted to is something like:

Duration:
Same as before nerf

Effect:
50% damage resistance that stacks multiplicatively with other damage resistance, meaning PD and -50% DT gear would lead to 75% damage reduction.
A phalanx effect of something like 50-75 damage that stacks with the already existing phalanx spell.
Resistance to status ailments (including death) set to 95%

With this, someone with a pdt set would still take 0 damage from a 400 damage physical attack as long as you had a rdm or sch to phalanx you. A 2000 damage attack would be reduced to less than 400 damage, which would make it pretty easy to survive. It might not be a "perfect" defence anymore, but it is at least an "Extreme Defence".

As for Embrava

Duration:
3 minutes, perpetuable to 6 minutes, 7 with gloves.

Effect:
Up to 25% haste at 500 skill
Up to 5 tp regain at 500 skill
up to 50 hp regen at 500 skill
Up to 5 mp refresh at 500 skill

Concerned4FFxi

10-24-2012, 09:07 PM

I think a more reasonable solution to embrava is to have at 500 enhacing magic skill, 3/tic refresh and regain, having zero regain is totally bullshit, especially with the major time nerf. I would expect 3refresh 3 regain with the old time limit but, nerfing time and regain to such a degree is bat-shit crazy and wasnt even thought out. I have learned since these boards have opened to discussion that SE makes extremely poor decisions, they seem to never ever test anything, nor consider what releasing stuff or info too early can cause to a community. This must point to one logic, they just don't give a shit about us. STFU and pay bitches. The forums are just an easy way for them to test customer concern, if a million people cry out they may consider a change, unless of course: BALANCE OR WORKING AS INTENDED.

Smokesalot

10-24-2012, 09:30 PM

What Perfect Defence really should have been adjusted to is something like:

It's not 'A Defence which is going to need a lot of other buffs to be truly worthwhile' Defence, it's Perfect Defense. Your idea is ridiculous, anything worth employing PD for will still tear DDs apart, albeit in 10 seconds rather than 2, with 50% reduction. The duration nerf was needed, although as has been pointed out, the skill level it is proposed to scale at is unrealistic. I'd address this to make the current PD time an attainable cap with maxed out skills and gear. Ultimately, the burnt SMNs usefullness will suffer but the same is true for any job which was burnt to 99 and isn't appropriately skilled up.

The Embrava one...I just can't get my head around the thinking. What are they expecting SCH to do now? 2hr a party of WHMs so they can cure bomb DDs a-la Abyssea?

Players will find ways around these things as they always have. Guy in the thread back in the first couple of pages made a very succinct list of nerfs players have worked through in the past, this is no different.

@Concerned4FFxi; you really REALLY need to calm down. If something is making you this mad, walk away. No one is keeping you here, you do realise this? You aren't paying your subs at gunpoint.

Mirage

10-24-2012, 09:45 PM

Maybe you need to calm down a bit too.

First, it would easily be more than 50% damage reduction, you just need some gear for it. 80% haste isn't attainable without haste gear either. Secondly, what exactly is wrong with combining several buffs at once to get a better effect out of a 2h? Do do you not have haste, food, brd songs or anything like that on you while using mighty strikes, meikyo shisui or hundred fists? For magical resistance, you'll already have shellra 5 on you, so that's a total magical resistance of 65% already.

Smokesalot

10-24-2012, 09:54 PM

Doesn't make it a Perfect Defence then does it? What else do you propose, Perfect Dodge effectiveness dependant on EVA gear? Invincible scaling with -DT equipment? Mighty Strikes crit hit rate adjusted with Crit% stats on?

Mirage

10-24-2012, 10:07 PM

Perfect dodge isn't perfect anyway, it doesn't stop ranged attacks! But no, mighty strikes isn't affected by crit rate gear, but it most certainly is affected by crit damage gear, and the total damage output during the 2hour is also dependent on attack buffs, attack speed buffs, and accuracy buffs. Invincible is also a poor comparation, because it is a self-only ability, while PD is for the entire party, or more, if you rotate the SMN with mp recovery items/abilities.

Furthermore, Invincible is scaling with -DT equipment, because it only stops physical damage, not magical damage. Therefore, -MDT and -DT does actually help you die slower whenever the boss is using magical attacks.

As you can see, Invincible does not make you invincible. Perfect Dodge is not perfect.

That being said, summoner should definitely get some solid buffs all around. The job's single purpose in a high-level fight should not be for one single ability alone. For example, their perfect defence could be combined with new and powerful BP Wards from other avatars.

What if titan also got a new super-stoneskin(1000-1500 hp, depending on skill) with phalanx attached, and garuda got a special evasion boost ward that was not affected by current evasion floors/caps. Avatars could also be given sphere effects that made players resistant to the avatar's element and the element they were strong to. There are lots of things that could be done with summoner, just too bad SE doesn't like the job.

HimuraKenshyn

10-24-2012, 10:14 PM

SE's priorities are in perfect order. They are successfully pissing off that vast majority of their playerbase in hopes of herding them away from a project (FFXI) that they'd rather see go to the wayside, and sending them to another game (preferably of their own design). In this regard SE is succeeding quite well, ppl are pissed, ppl are probably gonna quit, and this will bring the game 1 step closer to inevitable demise.

All systems are working as intended, as they say...

If they even dream I would buy another SE game after dealing with this bull they really need they heads examined. Most of my friends have left and the majority of my LS consist of more mules then real players because they can't balance retarded mobs abilities with the instance death spam 30 yalm high damage AOE blasts constant insane TP moves. I for one do not enjoy banging my head up against a brick wall and then call it a challenge. They really think the low random drop rate makes the game better in fact its driving people away a friend has got ACe's mail 15 times in the chest and people that want or need it get zip after awhile it just becomes so frustrating that peeps stop logging in and if this is what they want so be it. Not sure how much more asinine moves I can take......

Smokesalot

10-24-2012, 10:27 PM

Zerofx

10-24-2012, 10:39 PM

Remember when mobs use to take about 30-1hr to kill like Fafnir, King Behemoth, Tiamat etc..... You had to have good strats and people actually had to be skilled at their jobs. The fights were fun and were actual challenges. Mobs had hard hitting moves but didn't instantly KO the entire alliance every 5 seconds. Then they did the lvl cap to 99 and basically everything you fight kills you instantly unless you kill it in 1:30 seconds.

Why not take the instant KO moves out of all these new nms like legion, adl, provanance watcher... reduce their damage, keep their defense high like back in the day and draw the fight out instead of taking an hour to gather for it and 2 mins to kill it... That is not what i call fun... This game WAS fun now its just a ZERG fest for pretty much every single event these days.

Apparently you dont want us zerging anything in this game whatsoever, yet everything you release since 75 cap has been broken takes a zerg strat to defeat. For years people tried to develop ways to kill AV than it got to be so pointless even with learning how to disable its abilities the fight was just impossible hard and after a time people pretty much gave up on it completely. Even at 99 AV is ridiculous without a Zerg strat. You said you wanted us to spend less time fighting mobs that took days on end to kill so you take it to everything must be zerged than bitch cause thats the only way we can kill it! Quit with the shit already and give us our Fafnirs Tiamats Behe's back!

If your going to nerf embrava and PD to oblivion why not do something to better balance the latest content instead of removing every strat completely.

You had the right formula a few years ago... Why not learn from your past when it was good instead of tearing it to shit of what it is now.

My idea on how adjustments should be for some events.

Legion:
1hr event. Take away all the stupid instal kill 2000 dmg moves. Buff up mobs defense weaken their attacks to managable over time. Should take about 20 mins to do each wave over the hour time period.

ADL;
Give his insta kill moves a longer casting time to somewhat a stunnable time. Reduce its attack and increase defence. Remember the good ol days when we had ot have a stun order to stop the bad moves on Khim, Cerb, Tia etc?

Nyzul:
Bigger floor jumps, less lamps especially order lamps... Remove the damn No Job Abilities, Weapon Skills, Speed down buffs. Like it isnt hard enough in the first place... Increase NM drop rates from bosses 80-100 since they are insanely hard to reach in the first place....

PS2:
Really? People still play this on PS2? Its 2012.... Kill that support already. Upgrade your systems to be able to handle the demands of TODAY's technology. This game could of been increased so dramatically with a proper graphics engine that could render better effects. Hold more room for macros, etc.. We cant even use auto-translate on 1/2 of the new terms anymore cause of the PS2 limitations.........

Why overhaul XIV? Why not fix XI first before you go on to that garbage of a game.

/end rant

Damane

10-24-2012, 10:41 PM

Greetings everyone!

As was previously mentioned, with the addition of the new special abilities as well as the shortening on the cool down timers for the current special abilities, we are planning to adjust the effects of both Embrava and Perfect Defense. The adjustments will be reflected in this week’s Test Server update, but I’d like to share the information with you beforehand.

Embrava:

Effect duration: Currently 5 minutes → Adjusted to 90 seconds
Haste: Currently 1% increase for every 15 enhancing skill points → Adjusted to 1% increase for every 20 enhancing skill points. Maximum of 25% at 500 skill
Regain Effect: While the value will remain unchanged, the Regain effect will be changed to Refresh.

Perfect Defense:

Effect duration: Currently 90 seconds → Adjusted to 30 seconds. +1 sec for every 20 summoning skill points, maximum of 60 seconds with 600 skill (30 seconds +30 seconds)
Effect: No change

Along with the above adjustments, the content that featured these abilities heavily into their strategies will see adjustments as well.

Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey
We'll be reducing the number of Astrariums necessary to exchange for equipment from 25 to 5.
*As a result of this, the number of Astrariums players have in possession will be reduced by 1/5.

The idea that you'll need some luck on your side to reach level 100 will not change. While we expect that the number of floors reachable and the frequency will decrease due to the adjustments to Embrava, we decided to balance this by reducing the number of Astrariums required for equipment.

Legion
Monster HP will be reduced by around 10%

This will be applied to all monsters, and adjusted so the overall pace will become faster making it possible to defeat close to the same amount of monsters as before within the 30 minutes time limit.

Einherjar
Odin's Chamber II: Odin's HP will be reduced by around 10-15%.

As this is different from Legion and only a single monster battle, we will be adjusting the HP on a slightly larger range.

Besides the above content, Perfect Defense and Embrava are utilized for Arch Dynamis Lord and Provenance Watcher; however, the battle times for these monsters are relatively short, so we would like to monitor the battle situation at their current difficulty.

All of these adjustments will be implemented during the Test Server update this week, but we will continue to look at balance and make adjustments as needed.

I am not against the nerf by any mean (I am a Main sch myself), but those so called "Adjustment" to those battlefields, do nothing and help nothing.
People arent useing embrava and/or PD to make fights easier. They are useing them in the above events so they can have have a chance at surviving all the bullshit those mobs put out.
The problem arent the mobs HP, its those ridicoulus instant AoE death moves that kill every player ardount them.

Dont get me wrong. I dont have a problem if a mob has one AoE move that can wipe almost all people but is stunnable (like gates of hades back then at lvl 75 on cerbers), but if ALL of the moves a mob has does that... you stand no chance at winning without useing embrava and PD.

You should rather reduce the mobs attack power instead of their HP...
All I hear lately is excuses that the Dev team has no time for adjustments/Ideas because of the new Expansion and they get delayed, is the Dev Team now not even anymore capable of pulling out correct, good, reasonable Adjustments that make sense?

Byrth

10-24-2012, 10:45 PM

Embrava's duration needs to remain at 5 minutes. Then it will at least be useful as another form of healing.

Mirage

10-24-2012, 11:11 PM

Point taken in the names respect, though I wasn't arguing semantics of the abilities description over its function, more so the effect that the abilities have.

Your suggestion is still silly. Gearing for crit dmg+ during Mighty Strikes is enhancing the effect of the 2 hour. What you suggest is putting a lot of outside influence into an ability to even make it feasible.

Enhancing the effect is a relative term. PLD's effect of "being hard to kill" during invincible is enhanced by -MDT and MDB gear, as well as Shell. Thief's effect of "being hard to hit" is enhanced by evasion and shadows in the case of ranged attacks. Warrior's ability to deal a huge amount of damage is enhanced by every DD gear piece and buff he's got on him. Likewise, Perfect defence would make the entire party harder to kill, and make it even harder to kill those who enhance this effect through gear and certain buffs.

Maybe my suggestion was a bit modest, but I still think that a huge amount of damage reduction is enough to make it worthwhile, even if it isn't 100%. If we change my suggestion to additive instead of multiplicative, granting 75% reduction by wearing as little as -25% DT in gear, and up to 100% if you wear -50% DT, would that be easier to accept?

I can't think of one single buff with a greater defensive boost than this, after all. And do keep in mind that you still resist all status effects such as death and charm at a 95% rate, if you go with the suggestion I gave.

Yugl

10-24-2012, 11:45 PM

* Perfect Defense *
* Duration = (SMN Skill/15) + 30
* Caps at 600
* Effects begin to decay once half of the duration has occurred

* Embrava *

Proposal 1:
* Duration: Reduce duration to 120 seconds (5min duration with Perpetuance and Empyrean +2 Hands)
* Haste: Haste = (Enhancing Magic Skill/50) + 20; Cap at 500 Skill
* Regain: Existing Equation; Cap at 400 Skill
* Regen: Remain the same

Proposal 2:
* Duration Remain the same
* Haste: Haste = (Enhancing Magic Skill/20); Caps at 500 Skill
* Regain: Regain = (Enhancing Magic Skill/250) + 1; Caps at 500 Skill
* Regen: Remain the same

* Nyzul Isle *
* Reduce Astraria needed from 25 to 10
* Random floor jumps from 2-9 become 5-10
* Reduce maximum lamps from 5 to 3

* Legion *
* Increase the charge time for TP moves by 2 seconds
* Reduce the evasion of monsters by 5%
* Reduce the attack of monsters by 20%
* Reduce the defense of monsters by 10%
* Reduce Mul's Wave 2 Mantis's and Mul's Wave 3 Gallu's resistance to stun
* Remove alliance aggro (The mob has hate on everyone within the alliance once a person within the alliance aggros said mob; remove that trait)
* Do not let monsters link with the elemental within the room (No one takes advantage of that because they link)
* Reduce the range of AOEs
* Reduce the duration of Muddle, Charm, Stun, Amnesia, and Encumbrance by 50%
* Allow players to remove Yaksha and Raksha stance by weaponskilling from behind
* Remove additional effects from normal hits

* Odin (Chamber II) *
* Reduce Odin's HP by 10%
* Make Sanguine Tail only dispel up to 5 buffs and not include food
* Reduce Odin's attributes, evasion, attack, and defense by 5% per add the group defeats
* Allow players to stun Odin except for automated moves (Zantetsuken Kai, Zantetsuken, and Yggr)

* Other *
* Improve the effectiveness of Holy Water and Hallowed Water

Dreamin

10-25-2012, 12:05 AM

Inb4 SE remove the ability to lock SCH 2hr inside Legion. And the changing of Embrava so that it's party specific.

Seriously, if you're going to pile it on, minds as well make that pile taller. And yeah, SMN 600 is currently impossible to achive, and if I'm you, dont expect to see gears coming out that would let you get there either. The 600 number is just 'if you were able to get to it' but really they have no plans to ever allow you to get it it.

Sp1cyryan

10-25-2012, 12:34 AM

*brings out the crystal ball*

The first Dev response will probably be about little besides acknowledging the error of setting PD at the impossible 600 skill and snuffing off the people who do not agree with their hack and slash adjustments.

Let's see if I am right because it does not take a brain surgeon to understand how changes should be made. I really wish the Dev team played this game like the rest of us because if they did they would see how things actually work. As long as the content functions after its made I just assume they nudge it out the door and into the real world so they can make it first and fix it later.

If that is the case then SE made up their minds and we should just ignore using the test server or this thread. Let's see what we get >:-|

Slvr_Stryker

10-25-2012, 01:21 AM

Okay developers (that is, if Camate and Okipuit actually manage to refer the material listed in this thread to the developers...please, do so so they can be aware of what they're doing), I'm sure by now you guys have seen the, for lack of a better term, "shit storm" that's come across...at least the US side. Cant' say much for the JP side of things, or any other countries, but a loooooooot of us think that this is just the wrong way to go, both with reducing the usefulness of Embrava/Perfect Defense *as well as* reducing the strength of the monsters that we have to fall back on using both abilities. I want to throw this out, as it has been said countless times in this thread alone: people rely on Embrava and Perfect Defense in the current endgame content, not because it makes it easier, but because the content is nigh impossible without using either of these.

That said, let's break down what you've done to these and the repercussions of the changes, as well as some fixes that may actually be feasible to help keep the difficulty high, but reduces the risk enough to help comply with the now-limited abilities. Starting with said abilities:

Embrava:

Effect duration: Currently 5 minutes → Adjusted to 90 seconds
Haste: Currently 1% increase for every 15 enhancing skill points → Adjusted to 1% increase for every 20 enhancing skill points. Maximum of 25% at 500 skill
Regain Effect: While the value will remain unchanged, the Regain effect will be changed to Refresh.

First thing's first, the duration. Dropped from 5 minutes to 1 1/2 minutes. That in and of itself seems like a huge hit, and it is when you apply Perpetuance (I don't know why I said Accession, I'm tired. ^^; ), dropping it from (with Savant Bracers +2 equipped) essentially 12:30 minutes to 3:45 minutes. However, consider the fact that Tabula Rasa lasts for 3 minutes upon usage. It still wouldn't be that terribly broken as people would think because, come the 2 minute mark, you can just reapply Embrava. So essentially, you get 5:45 minutes or more of the Embrava effect, which should be more than enough to get you out of the hole you're in. That being said, I think people would like it more if it was brought to a natural 2 minute duration. Would give just enough oomph to help keep it useful while still limiting it under the drop in 2hrs.

Next thing: Haste. You're basically lopping 9-ish% off of it and capping it at 25% Haste. Again, that *seems* bad, but considering the fact of how easy it is to get Haste these days (25% gear cap, 15% from Haste, 12.7%+ from Victory March alone), I don't think that's going to kill the effective usefulness in any situation.

But then we get to the Regain >> Refresh effect. In a word: no. In more than a word: this should not have been changed, and it comes up to the fact that Refresh, or even ways to get MP back quickly, are miles more plentiful than Regain effects are. For example: my BLU naturally gets 4 MP/tic back by wearing all of three pieces of armor and setting two useful spells, and that's before I cast my 3 MP/tic Refresh spell Battery Charge. Other mages can get crazy amounts of MP/tic back just by wearing gear alone, and that's not including things like Sublimation, the Refresh spells, Convert, or even Devotion. Add on to the fact that a lot of mages also try to carry around at least a Vile Elixir on them so they can have more MP in a pinch, on top of the fact of temporary items in certain events (like Neo-Nyzul Isle, for instance), and it all comes back to the fact that MP restoration is not hard to come by. This effect should not have been touched in the slightest, but if you *absolutely had to*, you probably should have dropped it by 1-2 TP/tic.

Perfect Defense:

Effect duration: Currently 90 seconds → Adjusted to 30 seconds. +1 sec for every 20 summoning skill points, maximum of 60 seconds with 600 skill (30 seconds +30 seconds)

So you're dropping Perfect Defense to an upward maximum of 60 seconds. That's fine and dandy; in fact, that was going to be my suggestion anyway. However, the number you pulled to reach that maximum? Nigh impossible. Let's look at the list.
SMN natural Summoning Magic skill: 417 at cap
Merits: +16
Top-tier Kirin's Pole Augment: +12
Vox Grip: +3
Caller's Horn +2: +9
Caller's Pendant: +9
Summoning Earring: +3
Anhur Robe: +12
Summoner's Bracers +2: +15
Evoker's Ring: +10
Fervor Ring: +4
Astute Cape: +5
Cimmerian Sash: +5
Ngen Seraweels: +10
Rubeus Boots: +10
I'm no SMN, so I may have missed some items, but if you add up all of those numbers, you reach a grand total skill of 540. Which, by your own math, would only add another 27 seconds to Perfect Defense's duration. Unless you plan on adding even more Summoning Magic skill via gear to this game, capping out Perfect Defense's duration is impossible. Either make it so that its duration is 60 seconds up front or, if you absolutely *have* to force SMNs to require skill to cap out duration, make it so that it's 15 skill = 1 additional second. This would drop the skill required to exactly 450, which is more than reasonable to reach.

So we've talked about the abilities that have been changed, what was done wrong, and what could be done to fix it. Now let's talk about the events in question. Major disclaimer: I know absolutely nothing about Arch Dynamis Lord, and I have only done Legion a handful of times, and not even the top floor of it. However, I will at least speak with what I know in correlation with these upcoming changes to both Embrava and Perfect Defense.

Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey
We'll be reducing the number of Astrariums necessary to exchange for equipment from 25 to 5.
*As a result of this, the number of Astrariums players have in possession will be reduced by 1/5.

The idea that you'll need some luck on your side to reach level 100 will not change. While we expect that the number of floors reachable and the frequency will decrease due to the adjustments to Embrava, we decided to balance this by reducing the number of Astrariums required for equipment.

At first, this actually sounds kind of reasonable. Floor 100 is very hard to get to under normal means, and 80 is a little more feasible. However, nothing here really changes. Embrava, while still being quite useful for its Regen and Haste effect, won't be as effective in helping clear boss floors and all enemy floors due to the lack of Regain. Even if you take out Embrava, there's still the curse that is the Order Lamp floors and the floor jumps themselves. As stated elsewhere in this forum by other people, while trying to go up 5 floors in 30 minutes was difficult, but doable in regular Nyzul Isle, trying to get from floor 1 to 80 or 100 in that same amount of time in Neo-Nyzul Isle is just brutal, *especially* if the jumps you obtain are total garbage in succession. And then there's the complication of Order Lamps: again, while hard, but doable when you only have to go up 5 floors in regular Nyzul, in Neo-Nyzul? This can effectively kill runs. For this, you honestly have two options to provide balance to this event: either effectively remove Order Lamps, or make it so the minimum number of floors we can jump up is 5. That still would give us a maximum floor clearance of 20 floors if you want to reach floor 100, which is difficult, but with the strength and abilities we have at this point in the game, reasonably doable.

Legion
Monster HP will be reduced by around 10%

This will be applied to all monsters, and adjusted so the overall pace will become faster making it possible to defeat close to the same amount of monsters as before within the 30 minutes time limit.

Einherjar
Odin's Chamber II: Odin's HP will be reduced by around 10-15%.

As this is different from Legion and only a single monster battle, we will be adjusting the HP on a slightly larger range.

Besides the above content, Perfect Defense and Embrava are utilized for Arch Dynamis Lord and Provenance Watcher; however, the battle times for these monsters are relatively short, so we would like to monitor the battle situation at their current difficulty.

As stated elsewhere in this very thread, the HP monsters have is not the problem. It never *has* been the problem. The problem is all of the high-damage moves that these monsters possess that can very easily one-shot people. Again, the main reason Embrava and Perfect Defense are used on these events, Legion especially, is so that we can survive these attacks that these monsters can deal, and even then, it's very difficult to even survive *with* those abilities if your alliance is not a well-oiled machine. While Provenance Watcher probably won't be too much of an issue, due to the fact that it's under the Voidwatch system, the others may have trouble keeping up, especially if there's virtually no change in the damage that any of these monsters can deal. The changes that should have been made to these monsters should have been related to their other stats, like their incredible attack, the natural defenses of these monsters (defenses that we ourselves aren't able to keep because, again, as stated in these forums by other players, the Defense stat on player characters is virtually useless unless stacked to an unnatural and pointless degree), the critical hit rate that players have upon these monsters, and (probably most important of all), the charge time for instant-death TP abilities or subjective range of TP abilities. These should allow time for stunning, and their range should not be way, way, *WAY* outside of the range that we can effectively cast. These are the changes that should be made to these events that require the current iterations of Embrava and Perfect Defense, *not* the HP reduction only.

tl:dr - Shouldn't have touched Regain on Embrava, reduce the amount of skill needed for max duration on Perfect Defense, reduce more than just the HP on ADL or monsters in Legion to allow us to effectively kill them without needing to *rely* on these abilities.

Fupafighter

10-25-2012, 01:22 AM

Luvbunny

10-25-2012, 01:34 AM

What I think they should do is to make Perfect Defense a non 2 hours ability aka ward blood pact that last 30 seconds up to 60 seconds with 600 summoning magic skill, reduce the damage reduction to 65% but stack with phalanx, sentinel, bard's scherzo, blu mage cocoon, migawari, earthen armor and dancer fan dance so depending on the combination, you can have a nice 90% damage reduction. Make it that with PD on, you resist ALL status down, doom, amnesia, encumbrance and death. Then I guarantee no one will complaint a bit since yeah you took it down to 65% damage reduction but there is a way to bring it back up to 95% with combination of several abilities from other jobs. It's a bit inconvenience but it can work, and you would at least push other jobs to the front.

Still think that Embrava should be a 3 minutes duration, so the MAJORITY of players can safely get the standard 3 minutes duration, and the hard core scholar can pump it up into 7.5 mnts long. Reducing the potency is fine, but please keep the regain. If they plan to take away regain and give us refresh, then DO SOMETHING with adloquium and make it a 2 TP regain per tick that stack with Corsair's roll buff, FIX Fenrir BP Ward to give us a 2 TP regain that last up to 3 mnts, give Bard a 1 TP regain song. You can't give us BAD NEWS but refuse to adjust all other jobs in response.

Sure it makes thing slightly inconvenience - instead of one spells that does it all, now you have to bring Corsair and Bard to the forefront to augment Perfect Defense and Embrava, but at least now the spotlights can be given to two additional jobs. While you are at it, FIX RDM and make it a forefront party buffers with magical damage reduction spells, and increase the potency of enfeebling magic and many of their debuff spells.

Luvbunny

10-25-2012, 01:36 AM

Weakening items do sound really nice.... Hardcore can be hardcore for all I care, but I want to be able to win occasionally. I don't have the time to log on whenever a linkshell leader needs me to to make an event.... 6-12 person events is the way this game should be.

Totally agree with this. Legion and Neo Nyzul has been out for over 6 months now. It is time they adjust and tweak it so that weakening items are available and let people do this with as 6-12 person events. It's clear that those two new events are extremely unpopular with the majority.

Yinnyth

10-25-2012, 02:21 AM

Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey
We'll be reducing the number of Astrariums necessary to exchange for equipment from 25 to 5.
*As a result of this, the number of Astrariums players have in possession will be reduced by 1/5.

The idea that you'll need some luck on your side to reach level 100 will not change. While we expect that the number of floors reachable and the frequency will decrease due to the adjustments to Embrava, we decided to balance this by reducing the number of Astrariums required for equipment.

Welcome to Floor 100!
Weaponskills are restricted.
FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU...

My group has had runs where we hit floor 100 and had JAs, WSs, and white magic restricted at least once each. Getting to floor 100 is not the only thing which requires luck. You can also hit floor 100 with 5 minutes left and still get a big "screw you" from Jonah.

Insaniac

10-25-2012, 02:23 AM

12 pages of nothing but negative comments. Time to see how much of Tanaka's evil energy Matsui absorbed before he left.

Chimerawizard

10-25-2012, 02:24 AM

Enhancing the effect is a relative term. PLD's effect of "being hard to kill" during invincible is enhanced by -MDT and MDB gear, as well as Shell. Thief's effect of "being hard to hit" is enhanced by evasion and shadows in the case of ranged attacks. Warrior's ability to deal a huge amount of damage is enhanced by every DD gear piece and buff he's got on him. Likewise, Perfect defence would make the entire party harder to kill, and make it even harder to kill those who enhance this effect through gear and certain buffs.

Maybe my suggestion was a bit modest, but I still think that a huge amount of damage reduction is enough to make it worthwhile, even if it isn't 100%. If we change my suggestion to additive instead of multiplicative, granting 75% reduction by wearing as little as -25% DT in gear, and up to 100% if you wear -50% DT, would that be easier to accept?

I can't think of one single buff with a greater defensive boost than this, after all. And do keep in mind that you still resist all status effects such as death and charm at a 95% rate, if you go with the suggestion I gave.

Ya know I basically said that earlier in this thread. post#10. Perfect Defense honestly shouldn't be more powerful than PLD's Invincible (-100%PDT, 0%MDT). (-50%DT) is really about the same as pld 2hr. There's no need for it to grow weaker as time goes on, just leave it at that and make it additive to gear -dt. the effect, if someone wants to screw over their own haste, they can still get the almost -100% dt, no one will sacrifice that much haste though so it'll be much more easy to see people mixing in a little of both. equip twilight torque, d.ring(rare but fully possible nowadays), and Mollusca Mantle and you won't be hurting your haste and still kick up a sweet -20%dt (-70% total). The thing that really hurts is how duration is getting over 30seconds knocked off of it. I say to make duration set and make how "Perfect" it is, based on summoning magic skill. unskilled smn lv0 skill, -5%DT, 550 skill (only need +8 more in gear than possible) 50%.
formula: -DT=(summoning magic skill-100)/10+5

about another post...
People who abused (in SE's opinion) the PD and embrava are ALWAYS going to figure a way around the orginal intent SE has for their whathaveyous.

Rember, the people who are finding ways around the originally intended method of beating said NM are actually trying to FIND the method intended to beat the NM. They obviously just happened to find a method the DEVs hadn't thought of instead. /shock. It's not like SE staff tell us the method of how to beat any of these NMs, so we're on our own to figure it out. When it's the way they had also thought up, nothing happens, when it's not the way they planned to be used. SUPER NERF! (how many years after they nerf'd drk zerg AV and Modus Veritas AV did it take for them to make that crappy video giving hints?)

Winrie

10-25-2012, 02:28 AM

12 pages of nothing but negative comments. Time to see how much of Tanaka's evil energy Matsui absorbed before he left.

Matsui wont do nothing about it, the Devs are smarter than us remember?

Insaniac

10-25-2012, 02:32 AM

Matsui wont do nothing about it, the Devs are smarter than us remember?

He took the new 2 hours back to the drawing board when everyone said they sucked but they could come back and still suck so who knows.

Yinnyth

10-25-2012, 02:47 AM

When it's the way they had also thought up, nothing happens, when it's not the way they planned to be used. SUPER NERF! (how many years after they nerf'd drk zerg AV and Modus Veritas AV did it take for them to make that crappy video giving hints?)

I think the problem in this case is that every endgame event, people are using PD, Embrava, or both. These abilities are so powerful that they've become ubiquitous. Most endgame is easy with a good PD or Embrava strategy, and it's easy to see if these were not nerfed, that would be all there is to future endgame events too.

Remember when Meebles was announced? Before anyone had tried it, people were already saying "enter > embrava > ??? > profit" because that's the formula. If it's a tough boss, put up PD and do as much damage as possible quickly. If it's a dungeon crawl, keep embrava up.

These nerfs were deserved, just handled clumsily. Bard and shock squall are probably next up on the chopping block, unfortunately for me.

Oh, side note... good luck on LB10 post nerf.

Sarick

10-25-2012, 02:54 AM

Oh, side note... good luck on LB10 post nerf.

Why? I beat it yesterday helping someone I didn't know with two MNK 99 , two WHM 95, one PLD 99, and one BST 95.

No SCH or SNM here only 2 hours used where the MNKs. We used the weakness item at 50% and after that it just died.

Masekase

10-25-2012, 03:01 AM

Whats people saying on the other forum languages ?

Chimerawizard

10-25-2012, 03:06 AM

Ya, those 2 abilities make things much easier, we'll do whichever strategy is easiest. earlier I called for a rework of game mechanics because~150hp/tick regen is potent enough to make the requirement of NM's 400dmg/hit+ to be difficult, and w/o super buffs on people can only get hit 3-4 times w/o cure before they die, add a TP move that does 600+ and double attack and probably someone's gonna hit the floor even with embrava up. Things is messed up and only fixing embrava/PD won't fix the real issue. I don't want them fixed unless they will touch on the damage output of mobs as well. they gotta make things possible w/o PD~embrava then gimp them saying they're too powerful. not gimp pd/embrava making events impossible then a year later or more later fix the events.

Luvbunny

10-25-2012, 03:09 AM

These nerfs were deserved, just handled clumsily. Bard and shock squall are probably next up on the chopping block, unfortunately for me.

Oh, side note... good luck on LB10 post nerf.

LMAO please stop sharing good news on other jobs that are actually working as intended, keep these as SECRETS tactics from now on and stop sharing it to the public. As long as they are contained within older contents and abyssea, they seems to not even care one bit. This is why Embrava lasted for almost two years untouched since there were not that many events that require you use it as a defacto strategy apart from the occasional SCH solo NMs etc in Abysea. The more you bring up stories of how amazing jobs XYZ at certain events, the more they will come up with their crazy adjustments. When a job is working as intended for players, keep it to yourself, level that said job, gear it right, know how it works and have fun, but do not post it in the official forum and when people do, ignore the thread.

Raksha

10-25-2012, 03:10 AM

I found SE's updated timeline:

http://imageshack.us/a/img845/7726/timelineg.png

Luvbunny

10-25-2012, 03:12 AM

Things is messed up and only fixing embrava/PD won't fix the real issue. I don't want them fixed unless they will touch on the damage output of mobs as well. they gotta make things possible w/o PD~embrava then gimp them saying they're too powerful. not gimp pd/embrava making events impossible then a year later or more later fix the events.

Yes, they still refuse to acknowledge the elephants in the room, and only do the minimal adjustment to mob HP when their abilities and critical hit rate are the few things that force people to rely on Embrava + PD strategy. That's all they have been doing since Legion inception. Cut the mob HP, keep their ability to one shot everyone in two hits or less with a huge AOE range.

Sfchakan

10-25-2012, 03:16 AM

Greetings everyone!

[list]
Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey
*As a result of this, the number of Astrariums players have in possession will be reduced by 1/5.

Please elaborate slightly on this. If I have 8 astrarium at the moment, will it be reduced to 1 or 2? Will 4 astrariums be reduced to 1 or 0?

Camate

10-25-2012, 03:18 AM

Mirage

10-25-2012, 03:39 AM

Well Camate, to me it seems like a lot of this thread regarding embrava could be summed up with:

12.5 minutes is a bit much, but 90 seconds is way too short. Loss of regain is bad, because this buff is mainly used on melees who have little need for refresh. Mages already have plenty of refresh available, so they don't need it very much.
A compromise between the old duration and the new 90 second duration along with getting back at least a bit of the regain would cover a large portion of the negative feedback, I think.

As for Perfect Defence, I'm not sure what the common consensus among the player seems to be, if there even is anything resembling one. I've personally said what I think about it earlier in the thread, but it is obvious that not everyone agrees with me.

I hope at least the embrava part of my post is sufficiently specific as feedback for the dev team.

Chimerawizard

10-25-2012, 03:50 AM

We understand that these adjustments will change the usage of these abilities and may cause inconvenience to some, and we apologize for this. We would like to proceed with these adjustments carefully, so we will be looking closely at the feedback we receive. Also, we realize that there are a good amount of people who oppose these changes, but we would appreciate it if you could post specific feedback about what would be the preferred method for going about these changes.
Personally, I would like to see Arch Dynamis Lord, Legion NMs, and Odin v2 have their damage output scaled back so that no single TP move -Zantetsuken or death profit is capable of killing everyone without damage being done to players prior. They should also not be capable of killing multiple players within a few seconds. Basically, I would like to see players capable of reliably killing NMs that are zerg'd currently without the zerg. For neo-nyzul, I want to see Order lamps REMOVED completely, I want to see HP of bosses f20,40,60,80,100 lowered and AoE stun moves removed, they are just time sinks created to kill a run. Also, I would like to see the 'go up ??? floors' give a higher average per jump. After the last update to NNI I have seen an average jump of 4, whereas before I had seen 6.

I would like to see this BEFORE embrava and perfect defense are changed.

Seha

10-25-2012, 04:01 AM

It's not the end of the world. Just need 2 bards instead of 1 now, as for sch usefulness they were always on stun duty, so I don't think they're out of the picture. However Embrava is pretty much dead as an ability itself, Kaustra is likely a better choice now.

On the other hand, Nyzul is gonna be even more of a pain to achieve. Impossible? Of course not, but fuck if it's going to suck even more than before. Also with the PD reduction I can see problems with ADL, mob is already a roll of dice as it is, good groups will still win for sure, but less hardcore players may have some issues to keep farming it. P-Watcher won't change at all I think...same for OdinII.

As for the hp reduction...I'm afraid for some Legion mobs 10% is not enough. Things like Paramount Naraka...ughhhh.

pancakesandsx

10-25-2012, 04:10 AM

Embrava is pretty clearly a melee buff. Why not just reduce the regain potency on it rather than switch it to something that's not very useful? Something like <Enhancing Magic Skill> / 150 +1 or <Enhancing Magic Skill> / 200 +1. The decreased duration penalizes the ability's utility enough, I don't think that it's defining traits need to be altered to this extent.

If regain absolutely positively must be removed from embrava, then please consider making adloquium scale with skill something to the tune of <Enhancing magic skill> / 250 +1 (with current gear, effective cap would be 3/tic)

Luvbunny

10-25-2012, 04:15 AM

Camate, thanks for the kind response. If they are planning to adjust Embrava, they can simply do the following:

Embrava:
Duration should be a minimum of 2 mnts, meritable to 3 mnts. Keep the regain effect but cap it at 3 TP. Keep the haste adjustment as planned. Add the refresh effect and cap it at 3MP per tick. Those are fair adjustment that will make the 2 hours still potent but at reduced potency.

Perfect Defense: Keep it to 60 seconds with 90 seconds max with SMN magic skill capped. This is fair, a serious SMN will be able to provide more boost.

Acknowledge the BIG nasty elephants in the room. Adjust your events and NMs abilities so that people do not have to rely to PD and Embrava and make other jobs shine again instead having to depend on SCH and SMN. Buff Bards, Corsair, and Rdm so they too will be able to bring more to the table and become viable on endgame events.

As others have pointed out, reducing Nms HP is useless. What they should be focusing on is adjusting their Tp moves, instant death kill, and AOE range so that players will have others means to survive without resorting to Embrava + PD strategy in the first place. There is absolutely no need to punish the players. Introducing weakening items would be a great way to make Legion more accessible, it has been over 6 months, it is time to open the gate for ALL players. This will create a nice way to absorb the gills from blinkering fiasco.

If you are going to take away things, you must give back to us in some ways or another. Your first strategy is to FIX the actual battle content, when that is done, then bring the propose adjustment to Embrava and PD when you introduce the new 2 hours abilities and how you plan to reduce the cool down. Instead of giving us bad news one after another with no sane rationale, if you do it with all the other shiny new groundbreaking news, people will tend to react more positively and the so called "adjustment" becomes more palatable.

Etrigan

10-25-2012, 04:18 AM

Regarding the two spells/Abilities here is what it boils down to, but this is just one man's opinion

Embrava:
Needs to last more than 90 seconds and less than 12.5 minutes with Perpetuance (Maybe 5-8 minutes while under the effect of perpetuance?)

Needs to still have regain as I can't tell you the last time I have seen a RDM or a /RDM use Convert (MP is plentiful and then some)

Perfect Defense:
Duration is the one thing that seems to be the issue at hand. The fact of dangling in front of us that 600 is the cap and therefore the best and not giving us a fighting chance to get it is just plain disrespectful.

If the Duration is shortened then make it absolute perfect defense. Too many times have members linkshells under Perfect Defense still fallen to ADL because of random move x, be it because he petrifies us or hits us with death.

We accept that shortcoming of (Almost) Perfect Defense because of the duration, so I believe it only fair that it become Absolute Perfect Defense in exchange for the duration length being cut.

Dinh

10-25-2012, 04:19 AM

Here's an idea... DON'T CHANGE IT!

ManaKing

10-25-2012, 04:24 AM

make way for new strats, about time those ones died

Sargent

10-25-2012, 04:25 AM

OK, Serious face time.

Embrava: The Refresh effect is pointless. The current advantage to Embrava is casting it on the melee's, all stats granted by Embrava are melee heavy. Most of the playerbase would much rather see you nerf the Regain value to 2~3 than change it to Refresh.

Perfect Defense: The maximum you can get it to is 57 seconds since you can only get 542 skill in gear. Personally, I don't mind this change if the content is changed around it.

The problem is, it isn't.

ADL: After the change people will be applying PD as it splits. Even with this, lesser groups (i.e. less Relic/Mythic/Emps) won't be able to last more than one split. My suggestions:
- Decrease the AoE range so that mages can stand at maximum range and not get hit by the AoE attacks.
- Make it so you win as soon as you kill any ADL, no more of this random clone is the right one.
- Reduce the duration of Terror from Dynamic Implosion. It's a 90 second fight which is now a 60 second fight, and the Terror lasts 30 seconds.
- Create a cap on the number of players that can be instant-KOd from Tera Slash (i.e. 1)

Legion: This is less of an issue in terms of PD since people only use PD for Legion when they don't use SCH stunners. I think the content still needs adjusting, however. It should not be a case of mob TP moves can oneshot, or nearly oneshot everyone. AoE damage needs adjusting so you don't need the mob stunlocked or the melee to have PD on.

Just an added note: SP ability recast gear already exists in the form of Evolith augments. While using the appropriate AF2+2 piece, it's possible to remove around 10 minutes from the recast.

Luvbunny

10-25-2012, 04:26 AM

Here's an idea... DON'T CHANGE IT!

LOL, the easiest solution for them would be not to change it, and change the battle content instead so that people don't even have to rely to PD + Embrava in the first place. This will create a more positive attitude from the players and put the developers in a better light, not to mention it will make the new director looks like a knight in shining armor, one that actually listen to what the players want. Their focus should be on POSITIVE, make the game more attractive, and spread out good news instead of bad news. If you must deliver bad news, make sure you deliver 5 amazing news for every 1 bad news, this will bury the bad news in an avalanche of positive feedback that soon people will forget that it is bad news to begin with.

Ophannus

10-25-2012, 04:29 AM

The way I see it, other 2hrs only last 30s-1min, why should Embrava last any longer? BRD's lasts a while but BRD is a buff job and SCH isn't really.

Chimerawizard

10-25-2012, 04:55 AM

The way I see it, other 2hrs only last 30s-1min, why should Embrava last any longer? BRD's lasts a while but BRD is a buff job and SCH isn't really.
Are you trolling?
Phalanxga, Regen V, Stoneskinga, Adloquim, Storm spells, enspellga.
Soulvoice: 3min duration
Astral Flow: 3min duration
Tabula Rassa: 3min duration
embrava isn't the 2hr, unlimited use of strategems and the ability to cast embrava/kaustra is the 2hr.
embrava: 5min duration (currently enhanced by perpetuance +7.5min)
kaustra: duration varies based on Dark magic skill.

tyrantsyn

10-25-2012, 04:58 AM

The swap on embrava from Regain to Refresh is the biggest issue's. Swap it back and balance the Regain. That is the simplest solution and will make ppl happy.

Slvr_Stryker

10-25-2012, 05:08 AM

Hello!

As this topic has generated quite a large amount of feedback already, we will be doing our best to collect it all and deliver it to the development team.

A would like to, however, follow-up on a couple of things.

First, there is a question about the cap on summoning skill being 600 being a mistake; however, this is the correct number. While it might not be currently possible to reach this number, the development team set the cap to 600, so consider that there may be room to increase this in the future.

Next, keep in mind that these adjustments to Perfect Defense and Aura were made with the idea that all special abilities’ cool down timers will be shortened. With that said, during this week’s Test Server update we are also planning on making adjustments so that the cool down timer on current and new special abilities will be halved. (We are also planning to make it possible to cut this time even further via equipment and merit points.)

We understand that these adjustments will change the usage of these abilities and may cause inconvenience to some, and we apologize for this. We would like to proceed with these adjustments carefully, so we will be looking closely at the feedback we receive. Also, we realize that there are a good amount of people who oppose these changes, but we would appreciate it if you could post specific feedback about what would be the preferred method for going about these changes.

First off, thank you for the reply, and for letting us know that you plan on delivering this feedback to the developers. We're gonna hold you to it.

On the case of the "600 skill" tidbit, really the only thing we wanted to do is to let you know that SMNs are currently ~60 points away from that at the very least. All I can say about it is that there had better be plans on allowing more skill-based gear, especially since most of the gear I had listed pretty much covers every single slot one can equip.

Duration timers I don't think are the actual issue we have about it. All of us here understand that the special abilities are going to be dropped down to a minimum of a 30 minute recast, and adjusting the duration of these very powerful SPs was going to be understandable. Our only real issues were A: the content that downright *requires* these abilities, and B: the sudden change of Regain to Refresh on Embrava. I state again, there's plenty of ways to restore MP; TP is a much more restricted thing to regenerate. The biggest thing is the claws that Legion, ADL, Odin v2, and even Provenance Watcher have need to be tamed to *some* degree that isn't HP-based.

Probably the biggest thing you can do is suggest the in-house play testers and developers create their own characters, give themselves some pretty typical gear (I think a lot of us can safely say that full AF3+2 and 85-90 Empyrean weapons would be acceptable, but if not, have some of their GMs go out and look at the gear that people, from every country, actually wear when in combat, then select middle-of-the-road options that virtually everyone would have), and have them try these events legit, no invincibility or anything along those lines; first with the way things are now, then with the adjustments affected. Believe me, if they did that, they'd be able to see just what is wrong with the systems in place, and *why* we rely on things like Embrava and Perfect Defense, and why we're so up-in-arms about these changes/non-changes.

EDIT: Also, I want to go ahead and point this out now to the people saying "from 12.5m to 90s is lame!": guys, 12.5 is with AF3+2 hands Perpetuance. Under that same effect, the 90s suddenly transforms to 3 minutes and 45 seconds. ^^; It's still a huge drop, don't get me wrong, but it's not *that* brokenly severe.

Heabea

10-25-2012, 05:21 AM

This is my challenge to the development team. With these changes in mind take 18people and fight these things 10 times each:
-Odin t2
-Arch Dynamis Lord
-Legion
-New Nyzul Isle
Then post your results and tell us how you feel afterwards...

While i'm not shocked at these nerfs (the PD one is warranted, too many SMNs mules with 10skill, My character included), and a scale back to embrava (if you are halving 2hrs, then half of 5 is 2.5!), i think it's more important to look at why we depend on such things. I'm sorry if you gotta perfect defense because even an aegis/ochain/burtgang pld can't withstand the mob for more than 2mins then there's an issue. And now all the rage is having mobs with added effect: death to their moves, how do you expect to win? Scaling back some mobs hp by 10% doesnt make alot of sense, if you could take off 90% already, chances are you could do the extra 10. If you wanna keep the embrava nerf as is and the mobs moves as is, drop their hp by 50%.

On a side note, thanks for totally ruining the main source of alexandrites with this... If no one can do NNI without a whole lot of luck (and a little bit of energon!) atleast allow us to enter salvage solo for the current tiers so people can farm it just like dynamis (i understand for the higher tier the minimum limit)

ps: sorry camate i know i'm shooting the messenger

saevel

10-25-2012, 05:26 AM

make way for new strats, about time those ones died

There are no other "strats". If you don't have PD on you then you die.

Dreamin

10-25-2012, 05:50 AM

I for one dont buy the whole story on 'there MAY be item/ways to get SMN skill to 600 down the road'. They sold us that last time to BST when they nerf'ed Falcorr/Dippy's TH. They said that in the future, there 'may be items' that would allow the raising of the TH and then turn around several months later to tell us that it was meant as 'if the items were to exist'.

So, no, I dont buy that crap. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me! People should just assumed that the max skill cap for SMN will be 545 or whatever the number works out to be. [Or unless they decided to raise the level cap again down the road].

Sasaraixx

10-25-2012, 06:04 AM

Next, keep in mind that these adjustments to Perfect Defense and Aura were made with the idea that all special abilities’ cool down timers will be shortened. With that said, during this week’s Test Server update we are also planning on making adjustments so that the cool down timer on current and new special abilities will be halved. (We are also planning to make it possible to cut this time even further via equipment and merit points.)

We understand that these adjustments will change the usage of these abilities and may cause inconvenience to some, and we apologize for this. We would like to proceed with these adjustments carefully, so we will be looking closely at the feedback we receive. Also, we realize that there are a good amount of people who oppose these changes, but we would appreciate it if you could post specific feedback about what would be the preferred method for going about these changes.

Camate,

Thank you for the response.

As far as Embrava is concerned, I think the general consensus is that the Regain effect should remain, but be weakened. We just don't see a use for Refresh when there are so many other forms of it available. Also, Embrava is primarily a melee buff and as such the Refresh effect would not be useful. With the Haste effect being weakened it is not possible to cap magical haste with Embrava alone, so outside of solo play I don't think we will see the buff take on a new usefulness for mages. (As a side note, I think there is a way to make a useful Faith like spell, but perhaps that should go to Red Mage.) Cap the Regain potency at 3 tp/tick at 500 enhancing skill. If you are absolutely insistent on not keeping the Regain effect, PLEASE buff Aldoquium to 2tp.

The duration also needs to be increased. We do need to take into account Perpetuance, AF3+2 hands and the fact that you can cast Embrava again right before Tabula Rasa wears off to add almost 3 minutes to the duration. That being said, I think the base duration should be 2 minutes. This would allow you to reach almost a 7.5 minute duration, half of what was possible before. I think that is ideal. We realize that the shortened recast timers for the special abilities was also a factor in your decision. If the duration of the spell isn't long enough to be worthwhile to use in the first place, then it really isn't of much consequence if you can reuse the ability more often.

I have no problems with the Perfect Defense adjustments and I am very happy that the duration is now tied to summoning magic skill. I do hope the 60 second duration becomes achievable with future gear/merits. It gives career Summoners something to strive for.

We also think the content needs to be adjusted more. The reason PD/Embrava were so abused is because monsters deal out so much damage so quickly that you are often left with no choice but to kill it ASAP. The AOE damage, instant death spells/abilities and rampant status ailments also need to be addressed. You should also consider removing order lamp floors from NNI and/or increasing the floor jump possibility to 3-9.

Mirage

10-25-2012, 06:05 AM

Oh, side note... good luck on LB10 post nerf.
Lol, you can do that with 4 non-r/m/e DDs and a whm, as long as you have a single tail. That's right, not even a full party!

Two tails and you can do it with 3 DDs and perhaps not even need a healer. As long as you had someone to buff you, like a brd and/or cor, it'd be fine.

Even if you did bring a sch for it, you'd still have 40% magic haste with just embrava and haste. More than enough for that fight, as it is over in less than a minute anyway.

Secondplanet

10-25-2012, 06:08 AM

Chimerawizard

10-25-2012, 06:16 AM

unless they increase the level cap, there's no way summoner will ever hit 600 skill. most slots already have +9~10 skill on them. 550 and Maybe 560 is possible though.

If you REALLY want to screw over PD, just put a damage cap on how much a DD can deal within a set period of time, say, 50k/min (overal physical damage) after which the enemy gets -99%PDT for 1 minute. kinda like Meteor for BLM, since you didn't want people to just bring a bunch of them to do anything at all. (PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS, it was only meant to show how bad an idea the meteor pre-release nerf is.

Minikom

10-25-2012, 06:26 AM

i can undertand how all sch are feeling about the embrava neft, after they got 500 skill, about 200-400 caleno fights, 100+ bitchini for the boost, time spent on farming genbu or money for scraps etc etc etc

my feedback for embrava is
duration 2 mins
haste 25% ok
regain max to 3-4 instead of 6 + refresh effect +2-3 depending on the regain effect

Perfect defense
duration 45 secs, skill `+ 10 = 1 extra sec

Nyzul isle, remove lamp order or just make it 3 lamps, 3-5 lamps is too many
bosses do massive dmg even the nms, just cut the dmg they do

Kaustra from Booses should be shorter duration example einherjar and legion since embrava was being used to counter kuastra

legion Hp-15-20% should be ideal

ADL reduce tp moves range to 20' pet commands are 15ish-20ish depepding on the NM and cast range is usually 20', ADL moves are 35' and after he splits can use 2-3 tp moves + aga IV on istant cast

Ppl abused on perfect defense and embrava but the reason was SE did new content almost impossible to win w/o those abilities, instead of neft the abilities they should go and fix the event.

Merton9999

10-25-2012, 06:30 AM

Looks like I'm late to the party, but what on earth did I just read?

Embrava
"The regain effect will be replaced with a Deodorize effect."

It might as well be that. I'm anxious to see the compensation for this. Libra II that has to be used in melee range of the mob and strategically reveals its... cholesterol level?

I'm not sure what to seriously suggest here. I'm inclined to believe Raksha's timeline, or think the devs have an actual reasonable adjustment in mind but are intentionally putting forth something infuriating so they can come back with a not-as-horrible adjustment and claim they listened to people.

I'm not into the RNG events that feel like blue-light-special, thrift store versions of Abyssea. My main use for Embrava was significantly reducing the time it took to do Magian trials and Empyrean item farming. The duration will kill the former, the lack of regain the latter. I know I'm behind the times on this stuff but I play very little. After two years I have no interest in doubling the time it takes me to do either one of these. Embrava in the form you've proposed here will feel like I'm losing a limb in RL.

I guess I'll play the "we listened to you" game though. Scrap the refresh and change the regain to 3 TP. Change the duration to 3 minutes. What I'd prefer is leave the spell the way it is and find some way to scale the RNG events like Abyssea was. Make them challenging at inception for a hardcore group but completely doable without PD and Embrava if everyone is well geared and coordinated, then as people beat things and acquire spoils make them easier for everyone as a result of the rewards (a la atma, atmacites, brews). Of course you'd still see SCH and SMN requirements, but if the events become more accessible and more frequently repeatable as well those requirements might lessen.

Also, I'm continually upset by dev justifications for these things. The fact that 2-hours will become usable every hour now is irrelevant. It's almost as bad as trying to make Gravity II look cool because it can overwrite Gravity.

Sasaraixx

10-25-2012, 06:42 AM

I don't like the idea of even more gear that is only for summoning magic, are we gonna be forced to choose between gear with smn magic and gear with avatar effects? I don't like where this is going....

As summoners we only have 1 magic skill and our avatars don't even reflect it as it is with power and ability strength, so to force us to gather a whole set of armor for our 2hr isn't right, its a 2hr for a reason cause its powerful since you still have yet to do anything with the elemental avatars damage output in the name of !@#$'n BALANCE. Balance went out the window long ago.

Also on a side note, summoner burn parties where banned for suspicious RMT activity yet Fellcleave parties are A OK and their power reflects their skills so when will summoners?

Who said the gear has to be one or the other? There are pieces out there already that have avatar buffs and SMN skill on them and I hope that SE continues to release more. Also, don't forget that the other half of you avatar abilities ARE effected by SMN skill. You should be collecting SMN skill gear anyway.

And other mages have to deal with a lot more equipment issues than SMN. How many pieces of equipment do you see that are effective nuking, enhancing and healing pieces? You have to gear appropriately and separately for each. I don't see why SMN should be an exception. We have macros to swap gear for a reason. And also, other jobs need to gear for their 2 hours as well. (And Perfect Defense is only one aspect of Astral Flow.)

Winrie

10-25-2012, 07:07 AM

The adjustment inconveniences some? Try everyone.

Regardless, my two cents on the matter is the monsters need to be adjusted. If youre really so deadset on nerfing PD and Embrava, Nerf PD to realistic skill cap to hit the maximum. I agree a LS shouldnt be able to use an army of abyssea burned 0 skill mules to PD constantly, a skill cap is fine, but it's unrealistic, and no one cares about the future, we cannot see what 'May come', We want what is currently available, and a realistic cap for PD needs to be set.

Embrava's only overpower i see is how long it can remain on you with perpetuance and +2 savant. Lower the duration of effect or make it unstackable with perpetuance if you have to but leave the spell the f**k alone. Refresh is useless, we dont want EVEN MORE refresh tools when so many are available outside scholar. Its a 2 hour spell, i thought SE was aiming to make 2 hours useful, not destroy them to an unusable state.

Secondplanet

10-25-2012, 07:30 AM

Who said the gear has to be one or the other? There are pieces out there already that have avatar buffs and SMN skill on them and I hope that SE continues to release more. Also, don't forget that the other half of you avatar abilities ARE effected by SMN skill. You should be collecting SMN skill gear anyway.

And other mages have to deal with a lot more equipment issues than SMN. How many pieces of equipment do you see that are effective nuking, enhancing and healing pieces? You have to gear appropriately and separately for each. I don't see why SMN should be an exception. We have macros to swap gear for a reason. And also, other jobs need to gear for their 2 hours as well. (And Perfect Defense is only one aspect of Astral Flow.)

Have you seen the majority of the higher end +smn magic gear? A body that gives +12 to smn heal enhanc etc.... and as for summoning skills it only goes so far for your avatar before the get blocked by the cap SE put on your avatars defence, acc, att etc... I usally sit on about 520'ish smn magic and my avatars still miss when attacking a really high level mob. Not to mention how fast they get killed by said mobs. Avatars have been frozen since lvl 75 for most of their stats.

As for other jobs gear problems they all have several different types of magic to worry about summoner has 1 summoning magic. To me that takes a back burning to gear that gives them an evasion bonus of attack bonus that we can't get from our magic being past cap. My wife's magic is 100lvls lower then mine and she does about 20 less damage then me on most bloodpacts and 2-3 less damage then me on physical attacks. How can 100 lvls of smn magic only account for 2-3 more damage? The system needs a rework so we can have a spot in parties since ours have been stolen from us.

SharMarali

10-25-2012, 07:36 AM

As many have said, the biggest concern, for me, is the changing of Embrava's regain effect to refresh. Refresh is already obtainable through many, many means (the white magic spells Refresh and Refresh II; the bard songs Ballad, Ballad II, and Ballad III; the corsair job ability Evoker's Roll; the summoner ability Diabolos's favor; consumable drinks, and numerous pieces of equipment) while regain is available only through extremely limited means (Embrava, Adloquium, Tactician's Roll, Monarch's Drinks which are only usable in select areas such as Abyssea and Voidwatch). Granting refresh to Embrava feels like, forgive me, but a rather pointless adjustment.

I understand the reasoning for adjusting Embrava and Perfect Defense, but I feel that changing the regain effect to refresh is moving too far in the opposite direction.

Like many others have said, I would support a reduction in the regain effect from Embrava. Currently it maxes out at 6TP/tick. Having it max at half of that (3TP/tick at 500 enhancing) seems fair.

Afania

10-25-2012, 07:37 AM

legion Hp-15-20% should be ideal

I think ppl should stop brining up this legion mob HP crap....legion mob HP is never, ever an issue. It's dead in 30 sec~1 min with a pt of Rags. Lower it's evasion and defense, and stun resist is way more important.

MarkovChain

10-25-2012, 07:55 AM

the preferred method for going about these changes.

It is clear that some content didn't get ajusted according to the nerf. I won't talk about legion because I don't do it but I can talk about ADL as I have farmed several hundreds marrows off it :

current state = unkillable as an alliance without PD, it kills you between 1 and 5 sec after PD wear off.
after nerf state=same as above, but you have 33% less PD duration which means you can't kill the second clone and your droprate is divided by two.

suggesting ajustement to the content : make farming ADL pop set easier with the following 2 suggestions
(1) put 2 ??? per pop NMs. When my group farms ADL pop sets, we have to wait 1 minute after each kill which means we waste ~30 minutes ( 5 NMs to farm and 6 kills per NM) doing nothing while we could farm more pops.
(2) increase the odious droprate (double it basically).

If you don't do this, the umbral marrows will be twice as rare, because most people kill ADL in small groups , so they will likely not kill the second form relialably enough ; therefore the price will double in bazars.

Sasaraixx

10-25-2012, 07:57 AM

Have you seen the majority of the higher end +smn magic gear? A body that gives +12 to smn heal enhanc etc.... and as for summoning skills it only goes so far for your avatar before the get blocked by the cap SE put on your avatars defence, acc, att etc... I usally sit on about 520'ish smn magic and my avatars still miss when attacking a really high level mob. Not to mention how fast they get killed by said mobs. Avatars have been frozen since lvl 75 for most of their stats.

As for other jobs gear problems they all have several different types of magic to worry about summoner has 1 summoning magic. To me that takes a back burning to gear that gives them an evasion bonus of attack bonus that we can't get from our magic being past cap. My wife's magic is 100lvls lower then mine and she does about 20 less damage then me on most bloodpacts and 2-3 less damage then me on physical attacks. How can 100 lvls of smn magic only account for 2-3 more damage? The system needs a rework so we can have a spot in parties since ours have been stolen from us.

I was referring to the fact that Ward pacts are effected by summoning magic already. I don't know what you are trying to say in your first two sentences though.

I also mentioned other jobs for comparison purposes. They have various magic skills and summoner has various gear sets as well. Wards, Attack, Magic Attack, -BP, perpetuation, etc. This all goes to your initial statement that you have to choose between SMN skill or Enhances Avatar X gear and that it is a bad thing. 1.) That isn't always the case and 2.) for the times where it is, it isn't a big deal. There is no negative to adding more gear with SMN skill on it.

You are also only focused on damage. SMN skill already has a strong effect on Wards, Odin and now Alexander as well. You seem like you want SMN skill to mean even more, but you don't want it tied to Alexander. . . I do agree, however, that a Summoner with low skill should not be able to do the same damage as capped/merited/well geared Summoner. That has nothing to do with your initial post though.

Monchat

10-25-2012, 08:09 AM

focussing on SMN skill will be pointless for PD anyway. with basic abyssea./dynamis you are at 500. getting 540 gives you only 2 more seconds lol...

Washburn

10-25-2012, 08:13 AM

Mages can benefit from the regain o embrava more than they can from the refresh if they're in the right situation. Spirit Taker.

Reain

10-25-2012, 08:25 AM

Echoing others, my suggestion for Embrava at 500 enhancing magic skill would be:

Base duration 120 seconds
Haste +25%
Regain +3
Regen +72

And for Adloquium to scale up to 3tp/tic with enhancing magic skill.

SpankWustler

10-25-2012, 08:26 AM

Embrava:
[list]
Effect duration: Currently 5 minutes → Adjusted to 90 seconds
Haste: Currently 1% increase for every 15 enhancing skill points → Adjusted to 1% increase for every 20 enhancing skill points. Maximum of 25% at 500 skill
Regain Effect: While the value will remain unchanged, the Regain effect will be changed to Refresh.

I understand cutting down the huge duration on Embrava, especially with the reduction of recast coming down the line, but totally removing the Regain element renders the ability without any special use.

Refresh compliments Haste and Regen the way a still-living and furious stray cat compliments the contents of a well-made vegetarian torta. Using large amounts of MP and benefiting greatly from large amounts of Haste are mutually exclusive, because it is very hard to hit a thing with a thing while casting a spell.

Is somehow reducing the Regain effect not on the table at all? That seems like a much more practical solution if any consideration is to be given to keeping Embrava relevant.

Legion
Monster HP will be reduced by around 10%

This will be applied to all monsters, and adjusted so the overall pace will become faster making it possible to defeat close to the same amount of monsters as before within the 30 minutes time limit.

I imagine it will be hard to defeat close to the same amount of monsters as before while numerous people are dying due to various high-damage moves, and sometimes even insanely powerful normal melee attacks, that are not being adjusted at all.

There are non-Perfect Defense strategies for Legion, but at the same time, people didn't use the use Perfect Defense in Legion so heavily on some lark or flight of fancy. The worst stuff in Legion isn't at all hard to kill relative to how hard it is to survive against so that it might be killed.

Kind of like eating that stray cat torta I mentioned earlier, I guess.

Secondplanet

10-25-2012, 10:02 AM

I was referring to the fact that Ward pacts are effected by summoning magic already. I don't know what you are trying to say in your first two sentences though.

I have had capped wards even before my summoning magic was capped, most were designed for lvl 75 and haven't been touched since so i could have 5million smn magic earthern ward will still be lesser then any other version of stoneskin.

I also mentioned other jobs for comparison purposes. They have various magic skills and summoner has various gear sets as well. Wards, Attack, Magic Attack, -BP, perpetuation, etc. This all goes to your initial statement that you have to choose between SMN skill or Enhances Avatar X gear and that it is a bad thing. 1.) That isn't always the case and 2.) for the times where it is, it isn't a big deal. There is no negative to adding more gear with SMN skill on it.

Most gear the gives the largest smn magic + has no other effect for summoner, most gear like the callers body +2 gives +10 along with other effects, its not worth to give up all of those effects for +2 more magic. and with the hard caps that are already way over the top with extra summoning magic its all usless to most and to have it for 1 ability is a waste of time other then time sinking into to get.

You are also only focused on damage. SMN skill already has a strong effect on Wards, Odin and now Alexander as well. You seem like you want SMN skill to mean even more, but you don't want it tied to Alexander. . . I do agree, however, that a Summoner with low skill should not be able to do the same damage as capped/merited/well geared Summoner. That has nothing to do with your initial post though.

Like i already said summoning magic is almost useless for almost everything since SE put a cap on what our avatar can do. I already stated that our avatars are stuck in a lvl 75 state and only the gear with magic attack bonus is worth going for to make it worth while.

Merton9999

10-25-2012, 10:08 AM

Mages can benefit from the regain o embrava more than they can from the refresh if they're in the right situation. Spirit Taker.

This and procing staff and club in Abyssea. I know it's old but my mind is still on things I actually like to do, all of which this Embrava nerf will render unbearably time consuming after having it as is for so long.

Ranthozyk

10-25-2012, 10:09 AM

As a player who has both leveled and enjoyed the many aspects of both the Scholar and Summoner jobs I implore the development team to reconsider the adjustments to, at the very least, Embrava. As others have mentioned, completely removing the regain effect makes the spell essentially worthless with the viable amounts of mp restoring equipment and buffs from other jobs the new refresh effect adds. Creating more of a compromise would be the best situation for rectifying the current plans; please consider retaining a regain effect, but with a lower potency (such as 3), along with a lower potency refresh effect (3 is also good for this). A few others in this thread have suggested this, but a 3 refresh/regain split would be the most compromising.
If the regain effect cannot absolutely be retained, the effects of Adloquium should be increased based upon enhancing magic skill (500+), up to a cap of, at the very least, 3. The regen effect should remain at its current potency. The haste effect can certainly be reduced if needed, but it is already possible to reach the haste cap with bard's march songs, and this doesn't seem like a logical adjustment. The effect duration needs to come to a compromise; 90 seconds is simply too short, even with a reduction to the 2 hour timer for all jobs. Something that would max out at about 5-8 minutes (WITH perpetuance) would be a common ground that seems acceptable, while favoring more balance.

The Perfect Defense adjustment is definitely more reasonable. However; I propose that it be set at a 60 second duration with 500 summoning magic skill, with increasing duration from then on, as creating equipment with even more summoning magic skill to reach 600 will be very difficult while sacrificing other statistics; to an ideal cap of 90 seconds for those invested in summoner to reach this 600 skill cap. If 90 seconds is too long, perhaps one of 70 or 75 would be more plausible.

If a compromise cannot be made, then the content suggested for development must be altered further to provide true game balance. The problem with these events is monster attack strength (Legion: 1000-2000 damage TP abilities is not fair game balance with the rate at which these monsters gain TP, along with tacking on enfeebling effects to these damaging abilities), speed, and radius (Arch Dynamis Lord being the supreme culprit, and Legion abilities of Ironclads/Botulus/etc.). Also the enfeebling and death spells of the monsters should be reduced if these compromise changes cannot be made and the content itself must be re-adjusted, as monsters can effectively incapacitate entire alliances with these incredibly powerful AoE effects.

Glamdring

10-25-2012, 10:16 AM

Greetings everyone!

As was previously mentioned, with the addition of the new special abilities as well as the shortening on the cool down timers for the current special abilities, we are planning to adjust the effects of both Embrava and Perfect Defense. The adjustments will be reflected in this week’s Test Server update, but I’d like to share the information with you beforehand.

Embrava:

Effect duration: Currently 5 minutes → Adjusted to 90 seconds
Haste: Currently 1% increase for every 15 enhancing skill points → Adjusted to 1% increase for every 20 enhancing skill points. Maximum of 25% at 500 skill
Regain Effect: While the value will remain unchanged, the Regain effect will be changed to Refresh.

Perfect Defense:

Effect duration: Currently 90 seconds → Adjusted to 30 seconds. +1 sec for every 20 summoning skill points, maximum of 60 seconds with 600 skill (30 seconds +30 seconds)
Effect: No change

Along with the above adjustments, the content that featured these abilities heavily into their strategies will see adjustments as well.

Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey
We'll be reducing the number of Astrariums necessary to exchange for equipment from 25 to 5.
*As a result of this, the number of Astrariums players have in possession will be reduced by 1/5.

The idea that you'll need some luck on your side to reach level 100 will not change. While we expect that the number of floors reachable and the frequency will decrease due to the adjustments to Embrava, we decided to balance this by reducing the number of Astrariums required for equipment.

Legion
Monster HP will be reduced by around 10%

This will be applied to all monsters, and adjusted so the overall pace will become faster making it possible to defeat close to the same amount of monsters as before within the 30 minutes time limit.

Einherjar
Odin's Chamber II: Odin's HP will be reduced by around 10-15%.

As this is different from Legion and only a single monster battle, we will be adjusting the HP on a slightly larger range.

Besides the above content, Perfect Defense and Embrava are utilized for Arch Dynamis Lord and Provenance Watcher; however, the battle times for these monsters are relatively short, so we would like to monitor the battle situation at their current difficulty.

All of these adjustments will be implemented during the Test Server update this week, but we will continue to look at balance and make adjustments as needed.

ok, I can agree with everything EXCEPT the "some luck" to reach 100. I've been very vocal in mutliple aspects of the game in my belief that "if you do the work, you should get access to the reward" and I haven't changed my belief 1 iota. Reaching 100 should simply be dependant on having: a. beaten the content, and b. having the points to get to 100. you see, that is what was RIGHT with Nyzul 1.0. Keeping it "luck-dependant" is synonomyous with keeping it "hack-dependant". While the Devs may choose to put on their blinders, the fact is many players use 3rd pt tools to reach 100, and anyone who is even remotely paying attention to the outside sites knows this-as I know the anti-RMT group does; keeping hacks viable to an increased success rate simply sends the message that SE is now ok and in fact EMBRACES the use of 3rd party tools to beat your content.

if that's the case, stop pussy-footing around and just say so, but if not, simply tie the content to doing the work. I realize this will probably piss off alot of 3rd party tool users, but since you actually have to respect a person before their opinion matters to you, well, let's just say I don't and leave it at that

Malthar

10-25-2012, 10:57 AM

<irony>Incidentally, SE forgot to add that blue mage will have more procs for voidwatch.</irony>

Muras

10-25-2012, 12:08 PM

Next, keep in mind that these adjustments to Perfect Defense and Embrava were made with the idea that all special abilities’ cool down timers will be shortened. With that said, during this week’s Test Server update we are also planning on making adjustments so that the cool down timer on current and new special abilities will be halved. (We are also planning to make it possible to cut this time even further via equipment and merit points.)

I just want to make it very clear that what I said in my earlier post was based on this knowledge. At the very least I haven't forgotten that Mr. Matsui has said they'll be reducing the recasts of the 2 hour abilities. As far as I'm concerned, the proposed changes the development team have offered for Embrava don't even make it good enough to be used on a 10 minute recast timer, much less 30-60 minutes.

Vold

10-25-2012, 12:21 PM

we would appreciate it if you could post specific feedback about what would be the preferred method for going about these changes.Any method that doesn't make me want to call Commander Cody to tell him to execute order 66. How you go about it, I leave to you. But just for the record the correct method will include either serious HNM nerfs or these two JAs remaining where they are, untouched.

I like what PD does. It makes the impossible possible, which I presume is the only reason for it to exist because otherwise it's pretty useless. I suppose the same goes for Embrava but it'd be far more useful for someone somewhere than these proposed PD adjustments. I do think in whatever case we could stand to have a little less need for PD and Embrava.

Sargent

10-25-2012, 12:49 PM

Added thought with ADL: Either Terror duration needs nerfing, or PD needs to grant resistance against it. It's a 30 second Terror on a fight where if it's not dead when PD drops, the alliance dies in seconds.

Raucent

10-25-2012, 01:16 PM

As stated multiple times the regain being changed to Refresh benefits almost no one DD wise teh only DD that would even use the mp would be BLU or DRK, I don't know if the devs seem to think adding refresh would suddenly make the mages melee or something.... NO never gonna happen.

Perfect Defense the nerf is ... ok, With changes to specific events:

Arch Dynamis Lord The Aoe Range of his attacks are beyond absurd the back line jobs have to be WAAAAY outside support range to avoid being destroyed by his TP attacks, the Terror can easily outlast Perfect Defense, in effect making it USELESS

Legion reducing mobs HP by 10% equaling the sheer effect of pre nerf Embrava, kinda doubt that, with the Haste Regen AND Regain from embrava the mobs were dying quick enough. As stated many times in this thread the biggest issue with the current "end game" is the sheer damage of the AoE attacks, 2000 aoe's generally equal dead alliance, single target attacks reaching the 2k range is far preferable, as it gives players a chance to regroup have a secondary tank hold while the first is raised and recovered.

Nyzul 2.0 Embrava is almost Necessary to reach the higher floors with the up to 1/2 run duration the haste regen and Regain worked to lessen the downtime during the grinds of kill alls / Boss Floors, The Order lamps tend to be run killers on an already heavily luck based event.

Odin 2/ Prov. watcher : can't comment as i've only read the wiki/BG about the fight never attempted

In essence the way the changes to Embrava and Perfect Defense combined with the "changes" to existing events
in general seems to be "how can we reduce the efficiency as much as possible, while giving as little back as possible"

Babekeke

10-25-2012, 03:00 PM

Next, keep in mind that these adjustments to Perfect Defense and Embrava were made with the idea that all special abilities’ cool down timers will be shortened. With that said, during this week’s Test Server update we are also planning on making adjustments so that the cool down timer on current and new special abilities will be halved. (We are also planning to make it possible to cut this time even further via equipment and merit points.)

We understand that these adjustments will change the usage of these abilities and may cause inconvenience to some, and we apologize for this. We would like to proceed with these adjustments carefully, so we will be looking closely at the feedback we receive. Also, we realize that there are a good amount of people who oppose these changes, but we would appreciate it if you could post specific feedback about what would be the preferred method for going about these changes.

Any news on how Astral Flow will be changed to be useful as a whole instead of just used for PD now?

ManaKing

10-25-2012, 03:07 PM

There are no other "strats". If you don't have PD on you then you die.

against ADL, yeah not really, but he's a big FU to us all anyways. He's not a real boss, he has no tactics, he's just better than you, which is why you have to cheat to win. Adjust ADL, adjust content. Get rid of PD and Embrava dragging SMN and SCH along so that they don't get real adjustments. SMN is regarded as boring because all you really ever do is throw PD. You just throw 1 move and then maybe do shock squall rotations. I'd personally like more for SMN. It would be nice if you could use Astral Flow for damage...you know against bosses.

Zhronne

10-25-2012, 04:31 PM

We would like to proceed with these adjustments carefully, so we will be looking closely at the feedback we receive. Also, we realize that there are a good amount of people who oppose these changes, but we would appreciate it if you could post specific feedback about what would be the preferred method for going about these changes.

Embrava
Reduce che amount tp/tic you get, but keep the Regain in place of Refresh, please.
Also, base duration should be 120 seconds instead of 90.

I don't have much to complain about the Perfect Defense change.
Something that needs serious fixing instead is all the other content.
The reasons why the combination of Embrava, Perfect Defense and other abilities were abused was not because the monster's health was too high, but rather because they have frustrating abilities that one-shot you or seriously make you unable to do anything.
Too many "cheap" strategies the monsters use to reach a false level of high difficulty in the attempt to counterbalance the existance of powerful combinations of buffs on the players' side.
If you nerf such mentioned players' abilities, you should fix those monsters "strategies" as well, not their HP wich hardly matters.
If it's too much work to fix all of those abilities individually, then do a general % reduction to all of their damage.
Maybe it wouldn't completely solve the problem, but at least it would be better than cutting their health by 10%.

Also, why no fix at all to Provenance Watcher and Arch Dynamis Lord?
What about adjusting the "??? floors" jump in Nyzul to make it a bit less random, or to make it possible to jump a higher amount of floors if you're lucky? Or to increase the minimum amount of floors you can jump through that command?
Stuff like this is what's needed to fully compensate for the nerf of Embrava/PerfectDefense and reach a final scenario where things are, hopefully, even more balanced than they were at start.

Lollerblades

10-25-2012, 05:52 PM

Nerfzilla!! - what I don't understand is why you're changing Embrava from a melee buff to a more mage based one ? We never asked for refresh yet you insist on forcing it upon us ?

How long before you nerf Kaustra just to add insult to injury for Scholars...

You say it's to balance out the game when the new 2 hour abilities are introduced, but to be honest Scholar has a rather pointless substitute. You're in effect killing off this jobs usefulness when it comes to certain content.

But clearly we the people that play the game obviously don't know what we want at all , we will just have to put up with being spoon fed this tripe until we either give up and move on or the development team realise just how unhappy we are with them...

Tinderil

10-25-2012, 08:21 PM

SE you f*ck up yet again. Over and over and over again. People spent time to level SCH, to merit SCH, get the gear and augments to get Enhancing skill up enough to be able to do good Embrava, and get into, among other things, Neo Nyzul Isle groups. These are people who DO NOT CHEAT, unlike those who use all 3rd party tools and cheat and hack and sell NNI clears & gears that you do nothing about. Then you nerf it for the honest players. Badly. You just keep annoying your players, seems you really want to f*ck everyone off.

Now that the cheaters/hackers got their gear, you gimp it for everyone else. BRAVO! BRAVO!

It is not the gilsellers who are ruining the game, it is you SE, you and only you.

saevel

10-25-2012, 08:24 PM

against ADL, yeah not really, but he's a big FU to us all anyways. He's not a real boss, he has no tactics, he's just better than you, which is why you have to cheat to win. Adjust ADL, adjust content. Get rid of PD and Embrava dragging SMN and SCH along so that they don't get real adjustments. SMN is regarded as boring because all you really ever do is throw PD. You just throw 1 move and then maybe do shock squall rotations. I'd personally like more for SMN. It would be nice if you could use Astral Flow for damage...you know against bosses.

It's not just ADL, it's Legion also. After the first wave the boss are pretty much ADL style, spamming stupid crazy AoE's while laughing at you.

Camiie

10-25-2012, 08:29 PM

There are many questions the devs need to ask themselves. What are SMN and SCH supposed to be or do? What is their role? Do they really have one? Is the "hybrid" thing really working out for them (or RDM or DNC)? Do they need to be given a specific or primary role? Are the planned abilities and adjustments really going to make them desired or just leave them in the same spot they are now? What happens when everything is implemented and they're still wallowing around at the bottom of the barrel? Shouldn't the time and effort players have put toward any job be rewarded with the potential for effectiveness?

As for content: What content is supposed to be accessible for which caliber of player? Is there enough for the average player to do? Do players have the tools necessary to have a reasonable chance to succeed? Are players even supposed to be able to succeed? How often? Should luck really be such a strong deciding factor? Are the adjustments made going to improve the players' experience at all or just drag out content for the benefit of the bottom line? Isn't there supposed to be a balance between the two? Are players really going to run the hamster wheel you're building or will they just ignore content or quit altogether?

Secondplanet

10-25-2012, 08:29 PM

its funny, its just like the company i work for, i have countless customers tell me they want us to carry a certain item and our headoffice tells us to inform them of such cases and when i do i always get told by them "No customer wants that, we tested it in (insert god awful location with heavy foreign community) and they didn't like it."

Its the same with this game no matter what we tell SE what we the people probably keep their company afloat they turn around and tell us that isn't want we the people want.

How about you spend all this time and energy into getting rid of the RMT that blatantly walks around towns in trains of stands in zones and only moves when the NM they want is up and "instantly" are able to claim it and pull back even up mountain sides.

Sekhmet

10-25-2012, 09:36 PM

My Idea, which may not be very popular, How about completely change Embrava's effect, and scale the spells that it emulates? I.E. let the original haste spell scale up with enhancing magic skill, same with adloquiem, heck, scale refresh and refresh 2 while your at it. My whole problem with Embrava from when it originally came out was it made Rdm obsolete as a buffer. I say use this opportunity and give the buffing power back where it belongs. While I'm at it, here's an idea to differentiate Rdm single target buffs from AOE buffs: If you want to keep Rdm buffs single target, let them scale up with enhancing magic skill, while keeping AOE buffs at the current level of effectiveness.

As for the new Embrava effect, how about a boost to critical hit rate and critical hit damage + critical magic hit rate and critical magic damage? Personally, given the name Embrava, which reminds me of Brave, seems to me this would be a better effect. If that isn't enough, throw on a status effect prevention effect, and a bar-element boost as well.

And before anyone attacks me for turning the Embrava issue into a Rdm thread: Barring the eternal Rdm melee arguement, Embrava is what put us mage Rdms out of business. Like I said before, use this opportunity to right past wrongs, please don't make us Rdms even more obsolete by giving Embrava refresh as well.

Mittenz

10-26-2012, 12:25 AM

Calatilla

10-26-2012, 12:25 AM

We understand that these adjustments will change the usage of these abilities and may cause inconvenience to some, and we apologize for this.
If your intent was to make Embrava completely useless then I think you're on the right track. Taking the regain effect away was the worst thing you could have done, nobody needs refresh, as people have stated there are already many forms of refresh in the game.

Reduce the potency of regain to something like 2 or 3 tick but don't take it away totally because that renders Embrava useless.

Babekeke

10-26-2012, 01:51 AM

I'm just glad that I hadn't got around to gearing SCH yet... I did go through the pain of skilling enhancing to cap though ><

Calatilla

10-26-2012, 01:55 AM

I'd be interested in their thought process on this change, what do they think we use Embrava for, or expect us to use it for?

Calysto

10-26-2012, 02:55 AM

Next, keep in mind that these adjustments to Perfect Defense and Embrava were made with the idea that all special abilities’ cool down timers will be shortened.

that makes no sense at all.

"here take this ability, it's no longer usefull, but now in 2h you can fail 2-4 times instead of winning once"

Hashmalum

10-26-2012, 03:15 AM

ManaKing

10-26-2012, 04:40 AM

It's not just ADL, it's Legion also. After the first wave the boss are pretty much ADL style, spamming stupid crazy AoE's while laughing at you.

And you think the problem is that we don't have enough SMNs that aren't really SMNs instead of that Devs need to make actual content that is enjoyable for their player base? Lots of 2Hs get used/abused in Legion because they are making you boss rush. If it's going to be 18 people spaming 2hs, i'd like it to be less boring, which these changes are going to attempt to do.

If the player base for FFXI is too stupid to figure out how to kill bosses without PD and Embrava for crutches, then maybe they should actually learn how to use their characters.

Embrava didn't put RDM out of business, addressing the other mage jobs' constant crippling MP shortage as well as making all enfeebles worthless put RDM out of business. We RDMs have no desire to mana-screw other jobs just so we can have our job as Refresh whore back; how about giving us some enfeebles that actually help with mob TP moves instead? You know, like we've been asking for over and over forever?

I agree and +1'd because refresh was never a RDM issue, it was an issue for every other job that wanted it. That's why we became so popular over night and then so unattractive as soon as that issue was resolved.

I'm in support of what they are doing because both abilities that are getting nerfed because both abilities have boiled SMN and SCH down to a single function that Zerg crazy masses are stuck on. Why try anything else, when we can get a couple of SMNs and SCHs, use them for only 1 thing, and then do whatever content we want? Bunch of magic addicted users that don't want to think.

SE is offering diversity and people are spitting at it because if we have diversity, then we can't just get 'the best' solution to every problem the exact same way every time. If you think a ton of Rag DRKs and WARs that are hopped up on Embrava and PD is the best way to do everything, then you really did miss 90% of the game. It's not like this game is hard, it just requires you not to be a dumb ass and play with people who aren't dumb asses either. Actually play the game, instead of focusing on completing content by any means necessary and maybe people would complain less.

Detzu

10-26-2012, 06:13 AM

sweetidealism

10-26-2012, 10:32 AM

I disapprove of giving Scholar a spell source of Refresh. That's the last bit of Red Mage territory that hasn't already been trampled. If you give that away, then what does Red Mage have left?

However, if the developers insist upon adding a Refresh effect to Embrava, then I suggest raising the level on Convert to 50 so that you cannot use it with Red Mage as a support job. Convert was always iconic of Red Mage, and I feel it should have remained exclusive to the job. If the developers were to make such a change, then maybe extra sources of Refresh would be more welcome.

Onimeonokyo

10-26-2012, 12:22 PM

Camate:
"Community Rep"

If that title is your job, then represent this community. 100% of the players are against this. This is not a nerf to a job, this is a nerf to the whole game and its players. We do not want this.

Severence

10-26-2012, 04:51 PM

/sigh Though I am happy to see SCH get a troll nerf finally. I'll simply say this: Just nerf the ability. Not the enhancements it gets. IE: Lower regain amount, Low time, Heck even lower the haste. But don't destroy a useful ability that is a decent tactic in overcoming some tribulations. Umbral Marrows are already a whole lot of money. Lowering 2 useful tactics for beating him will make the price sky-rocket. Either do that or lower the effectiveness of their TP moves. But alas, Tanaka 2.0 comes into play I guess. As for PD make it last as long as PLD Invincible. Nothing more. Nothing less. I think we can all agree that's fair. So whether you take my advice or not. Up to you. But you guys already pissed off a lot of your fan base nerfing blinkers.

Llana_Virren

10-26-2012, 09:31 PM

Embrava is an interpretation on the spell Brave... and Refresh has no role in that regard. If you want to "adjust" Embrava and PD just to keep the unwinnable events unwinnable, at least have honest, logical functions for spells instead of gimping them to save face.

Embrava can afford to lose the Regen effect. However, Embrava should be doing this: Increasing attack speed and increasing attack potency.

So, either keep the Haste+Regain as they are, toss the Regen, and call it a day, OR

Shorten the duration: 4min base (up to 10min with Perp+hands), reduce Haste potency to 30%, increase Attack by 5%, and increase Regain effect to 3tp/tic.

Embrava should be a rediculously potent spell... it requires a 2-hour ability to use it! Even if you reduce 2hr timers to 30min, the ability should still be dramatic.

Anything that reduces Embrava (or PD) further needs to be accompanied by a proportional reduction in the way/frequency mobs use the "I win" button.

Alerith

10-26-2012, 11:54 PM

I agree with nearly everything the players have said in this thread except for the comments about the final limit break.

I'm sorry, but you NEVER needed perfect defense to win it. Other battles may be unwinnable without PD, but this wasn't one of them.

I'm also severely concerned about the community reps responses so far. I'm not gonna shoot the messanger, but comments like "We'd like specific feedback" when you already have 10 pages worth, even after filtering out all the useless posts, tells me someone along the chain isn't paying attention.

Camate

10-27-2012, 04:41 AM

Greetings everyone.

I have some feedback from the development team to share in regards to all the response we have been receiving about the adjustments to Perfect Defense and Embrava.

Adjustments to Perfect Defense and Embrava
At the current time, we would like to proceed with the changes as stated.

The main idea behind the adjustments and the plan is as Producer Akihiko Matsui has mentioned:

For both existing content and content to come in the future, I believe that conditions where special monsters are created for the sole purpose of counteracting Perfect Defense and Embrava is not desirable at all. The main idea behind the adjustments to Perfect Defense and Embrava is to correct the situation so it will not come to this.

As a result we would like to make it so summoner and scholar can widen their range of play and usefulness via other elements. We understand that these adjustments might be somewhat of an inconvenience, but we appreciate your understanding.

In other words, currently we have been giving consideration towards Perfect Defense and Embrava when making adjustments to content and monster strength. Likewise we have had to scale back new equipment stats and abilities for other jobs for the same reason.

In the event that we were to continue at this pace, content and monsters would be created where the effects of Perfect Defense and Embrava would be ineffective, so in order to redraw the standard values for content and equipment we will be making these adjustments.

We apologize for how late these adjustments are being made.

Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey Adjustments
The reduction in the amount of Astrarium needed is a boon for reaching each of the main floors, but in addition to this we will be making the below adjustments in order to increase the chances of reaching these floors.
*These adjustments have yet to be implemented on the Test Server

Increase the cap value for warping to ??? floor
When randomly warping, the highest value will be increase from 9 to 11, and the average amount of floors that need to be clear in order to reach floor 100 will be reduced.
Adjustments to lamp response speed
In order to prevent any impediments to the time attack element, we will be reducing the wait time.

After “same time” lamps have been operated, the wait time until they can be checked again will be reduced from 30 seconds to 15 seconds.
The time until “order” lamps judge the correct answer will be reduced from 12 seconds to 7 seconds.

Astraria adjustments
Currently, the below changes have been made on the Test Server:

<table width="400" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" align="center" class="ta01"><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"><td width="45%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Astraria in Possession Before Implementation</td><td width="10%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7"></td><td width="45%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Astraria in Possession After Implementation</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">0～4</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">→</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">0</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">5～9</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">→</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">1</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">10～14</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">→</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">2</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">15～19</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">→</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">3</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">20～24</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">→</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">4</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">25</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">→</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">5</td></tr></table>
We will next be changing it to the below:

<table width="400" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" align="center" class="ta01"><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"><td width="45%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Astraria in Possession Before Implementation</td><td width="10%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7"></td><td width="45%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Astraria in Possession After Implementation</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">0</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">→</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">0</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">1～6</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">→</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">1</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">7～12</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">→</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">2</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">13～18</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">→</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">3</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">19～24</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">→</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">4</td></tr><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">25</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">→</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">5</td></tr></table>

Changes to jobs that can equip Powder Boots
As an experiment, we will be making this item equippable by all jobs.
*This adjustment is not reflected in today’s Test Server update.

Legion and Einherjar adjustments
With the adjustments to Embrava and the scaling back of its boons to offensive capabilities, it will take longer to defeat enemies. In regards to Perfect Defense, with the effect duration reduction, it's important to defeat enemies quickly.

We are closing the gap of the increased time variation by reducing an enemy's HP.

We know that there are a variety of reasons as to why enemies need to be defeated in a shorter amount of time, and it varies by monster and content, and we believe it's very important to look into all of these individually.

While there were many comments touching on this, we would like to keep this separate from the feedback regarding Perfect Defense and Embrava. (Please know we are not ignoring your suggestions, we just need to look into them one by one based on the topic.)

Miiyo

10-27-2012, 04:56 AM

In the name of "balance," TP version of sublimation, {Can I have it?} Some mages use myrkr T.T

also... Kaustra really needs to be redone or seperated from Tabula Rasa.

Helel

10-27-2012, 05:44 AM

Can you please consider the fact that RNGs require REGAIN and not haste, and certainly not refresh, so please make the spell "somewhat" useful for them again. Thanks.

Ranthozyk

10-27-2012, 05:46 AM

Lollerblades

10-27-2012, 05:55 AM

Can't complain about the Nyzul Isle changes but still what a poor excuse behind the nerf ...

If that's the reason then Kaustra will need some form of adjustment to it , so that scholar actually will have a use for Tabula Rasa . Sadly you forget about the ranged jobs that don't need haste or refresh ?!

The current layout for the new embrava is pointless it will just be another spell hardly used because let's face it who really does need refresh when it's so readily available to us with gear and the spell itself

I don't envy you Camate being the bearer of bad news but maybe the devs do need a slap upside their heads to make them see its not what we want ....

But then we're ignored all the time so I can't say I'm holding out any hope

Camiie

10-27-2012, 06:00 AM

In other words, currently we have been giving consideration towards Perfect Defense and Embrava when making adjustments to content and monster strength. Likewise we have had to scale back new equipment stats and abilities for other jobs for the same reason.

In the event that we were to continue at this pace, content and monsters would be created where the effects of Perfect Defense and Embrava would be ineffective, so in order to redraw the standard values for content and equipment we will be making these adjustments.

But do the devs understand that they're going to have to do a whole lot more than reduce monster HP to make things truly balanced? We're not losing wars of attrition where our healers are running out of MP before the monster runs out of HP. We're getting vaporized by nuclear bombs. Adjusting monster abilities should be the first step, but it seems as though it's going to be the last simply because it's the hardest. No player nerf should be coming without monster adjustments already figured out and ready to be implemented.

Miiyo

10-27-2012, 06:12 AM

But then we're ignored all the time so I can't say I'm holding out any hope

It's not really that we're ignored, they don't want any ideas from the player base. They just want to know do you like it or not. If enough people are against it, we MIGHT think about a sideways way to adjust it. That's what the forum is really for. They may as well keep it limited to a no comments forum and put a like or dislike button next to the updates. FFXI would be much different if they listened to the actual ideas from the community. Granted, most posts on here aren't worth much anyways so I wouldn't want to have the job of sifting through the crap to find a needle.

Rezeak

10-27-2012, 06:50 AM

SE nerfs embrava in Nyzle Isle meaning

you will attack 175% slower (or you'll have less healing power and will have to wait for brd buffs)
you will lose the abilty to one shot mobs with tp gained from embrava
with the lower haste and lack of regain, it'll take 2x longer to kill normal mobs at least.

Simply put kill all floors/leader floor will become bigger time sinks

Now there is a 15% increase in floor jumps which is pretty nice but is totally offset by the above things and then some.

Imo Nyzle isle is gonna become more gear dependent and less accesible (pple can't just lvl SCH and be useful) and alot more luck based since Order, Big kill all floor and tough leader floor will end more runs now.

Honestly, for those that haven't got the gear yet i'd try and spam it before the update.

Thelona

10-27-2012, 06:50 AM

I'm seeing this as them actually listening (to a point). They are adjusting piece by piece the embrava/pd'd events, so I'm thinking that patience will do well.
I'm holding out hope that this will be a return of the "Come as your best geared job" as opposed to "Come as one of the 5 jobs in the game".

Heabea

10-27-2012, 08:22 AM

I dont think the devs realize that we arent doing this strat because we want to, it's because we've been backed into a wall with no other way out and now they want to lock the door, to be honest, i hate being dependant on 2hrs to do things. It was nice back in the day when shit could be difficult like wyrms and JoL (atleast at first) but still be defeatable by a group of skilled and well geared players without everyone sitting around for damn 2hrs. Tiamat "Could" truck you with MS, but a smart PLD would just use sentinel to counteract, whereas idiots would get trucked. Just shit like that instead of oh hey i'm a taru and if i sit within 30' of this mob i'll get one shotted when the mob perspires...

Dekar

10-27-2012, 09:18 AM

I certain think that it would only be fair to give it an equal amount of Snapshot too.

saevel

10-27-2012, 10:00 AM

In other words, currently we have been giving consideration towards Perfect Defense and Embrava when making adjustments to content and monster strength. Likewise we have had to scale back new equipment stats and abilities for other jobs for the same reason.

In the event that we were to continue at this pace, content and monsters would be created where the effects of Perfect Defense and Embrava would be ineffective, so in order to redraw the standard values for content and equipment we will be making these adjustments.

Camate while I understand your just translating what the Dev's posted in the JP forums, and what I read last night.

Can you possibly communicate to the developers that it's not the monsters HP that is the issue. It's their offensive power, their special attacks have very large area's of effect and do so much damage that it kill's anyone who doesn't have perfect defense on. What the community is really asking for is a reduction to the damage monsters do to the players doing those big fights. If the developers could reduce the monsters offensive power then the players would love you guys for a very long time. The PD / Embrava nerf would be much better received at that point.

Muras

10-27-2012, 10:57 AM

If that's the reason then Kaustra will need some form of adjustment to it , so that scholar actually will have a use for Tabula Rasa.

Everyone keeps saying stuff like this but I really don't feel it's true at all. Tabula Rasa is a fantastic 2 hour even without Embrava or Kaustra, and definitely better than what some other jobs have. Originally it lasted 30 seconds and it's only effect was unlimited strategems and was useless like this because 30 seconds wasn't enough time to do anything with it. Now it's 3 minutes long, unlimited strategems, 0 recast on Light/Dark arts, and boosts Regen/Helix spells even more. Having unlimited strategems for 3 minutes is the best part though... You can Parsimony/Alacrity/Ebullience/Immanece your nukes as much as you want, and Perpetuance your buffs all you want, Rapture/Penury/Accession your cures all you want. If you really play SCH seriously, you should know how fast you can burn through strategems and just how amazingly useful having unlimited strategems for 3 minutes truly is.

Honestly, I think more 2 hour type abilities should have their duration increased too. DRK's (Blood Weapon) is a good example. But that's an entirely different topic.

In regards to Tabula Rasa and Embrava itself... Like I said earlier (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/28187-Adjustments-to-Embrava-and-Perfect-Defense?p=371355&viewfull=1#post371355), I still feel that if Embrava is going to be nerfed, it should be nerfed to the point where we can just use it whenever we want like a regular spell. If I look at it from a design point of view, if a spell is meant to be limited to once every 2 hours (Or soon to be 1 hour) then it's supposed to be overpowered. If it's not overpowered, then why is it limited to being used once every 2 (Or 1) hours? Everything in between is what the players consider "useless" as it doesn't reflect the spell's limited use.

As a side note, Embrava/Kaustra could be removed from Tabula Rasa dependency, but still be boosted to stronger levels while under Tabula Rasa. For example 51 HP (Or lower)/10% Haste/4 Refresh outside Tabula Rasa at 500 skill, while having 72 HP/25% Haste/6 Refresh with Tabula Rasa with 500 skill as the devs propose. We could get both. Anything is possible here, just as long as the devs are willing to work with us.

In regards to specific feedback for Legion/Nyzul Isle/Einherjar. I'll be honest. I don't really do these events, so my input is very limited. But I can tell you one thing; From my limited experiences with these events, I can tell you I have absolutely no interest in doing them. They're boring and incredibly unfun due to the way the monsters are designed (Mostly Legion though). I mean, we generally only have 200-300 more HP when compared to Lv75 cap yet stuff is hitting us 6-7 times harder in comparison. What's up with that? If you use math things should only be hitting about 15% harder, give or take a few.

So basically:

1) If you're gonna nerf Embrava, nerf it right and adjust all properties of the spell including it's limited use (Ties to the 2 hour). Kaustra as well, of course. No matter what though, 3 minute duration is a must for Embrava, 2 hour or not.

2) Adjust content properly. It sounds like you'll look at one element at a time, so for now you're just doing HP, but you're also so darn vague about it that honestly I dunno if that's really the case. As such, I think everyone should continue to complain about these events as hard as they have been, until things are fixed. For all we know, if we stop now, SE will think the HP drop was sufficient and never look at the content again.

I think you guys are just adding more work for yourselves (The devs) by looking at things one at a time. I know in computer programming that you try to plan ahead as much as you can because changing code later can be very problematic. I don't think this is any different. You know what the players generally want so just get 'er done and move on :P

Chimerawizard

10-27-2012, 11:30 AM

I just remembered something.
Embrava is pretty weak in level cap fights. Why are you making it a complete waste of 10% mp (assumed strategems) for those fights? I used it quite a lot to duo some ENM's w/ a friend who just likes to go this one particular job and it sucks even with him having embrava on. which only lasts for a 3rd of the fight anyway since perpetuance is lv76 (past all lvl caps).

It's only like 10% haste in those, idunno 30-40 regen? and regain of like 2. In no way is it broken in level cap fights. if any time needs to be killed from it, put it in the /blockaid petpetuance list. and it should remain the same potency it has always been for level cap fights.

Other point:

For both existing content and content to come in the future, I believe that conditions where special monsters are created for the sole purpose of counteracting Perfect Defense and Embrava is not desirable at all. The main idea behind the adjustments to Perfect Defense and Embrava is to correct the situation so it will not come to this.

As a result we would like to make it so summoner and scholar can widen their range of play and usefulness via other elements. We understand that these adjustments might be somewhat of an inconvenience, but we appreciate your understanding.
This means they don't like making content that makes it necessary to use PD/embrava, right? You're going about making that dream a reality.
First, change the content that you have already created to be do-able without PD/embrava, and let the community know that you're changing the content with the assumption that those spells will be heavily nerf'd. After you have changed the content around the new design and the player base understands that is why the content has been changed, you may nerf PD/embrava without issue.

Finally, why is it you say you made content to make PD/embrava useless when if a group tries to do the event without they have 0% chance of winning?

Vosslerr

10-27-2012, 03:18 PM

I just wanted to thank SE for killing Voidwatch with the crour update. Now they tell us they are going to nerf Embrava and PD. Really about tired of the nerfs. The reps always complain that we don't provide constructive criticism and suggest other alternatives. Well, heres a suggestion. Please think about the long term when you implement a nerf. I was surprised to find out how many people do VW for the crour alone. Unfortunately I didn't get to finish all the armor that I wanted to and I can't can hold more than 10 people together for VW since no one wants to do it if they have the armor, and now you tell me that it will now be harder for me to get any Nyzul gear. I think another nerf will be coming this month, my subscription status.

Lollerblades

10-27-2012, 03:34 PM

It's not really that we're ignored, they don't want any ideas from the player base. They just want to know do you like it or not. If enough people are against it, we MIGHT think about a sideways way to adjust it. That's what the forum is really for. They may as well keep it limited to a no comments forum and put a like or dislike button next to the updates. FFXI would be much different if they listened to the actual ideas from the community. Granted, most posts on here aren't worth much anyways so I wouldn't want to have the job of sifting through the crap to find a needle.

They're ignorant of what we want over what they think we need I'll give you that

Zerofx

10-27-2012, 10:04 PM

DOWN WITH THE BLOODY BIG HEAD!!!!!!

Winrie

10-27-2012, 10:58 PM

Whle youre at it, get rid of the crap in NNI where you can port back to floor 1 when you're in the 90s, that's bullcrap that can even happen in that event.

Lilia

10-27-2012, 11:11 PM

*spoiler*

New Jobadjustments

~All jobs~
new WS @600 skill

~WHM~
Cure become regeneff. with same Tier (cureI = CureI+SS+Regen1) @600 Healingskill

~BLU~
New Spells @600 Bluskill

~NIN~
+1 Utsesemi shadow @600 NINskill

>.<

Scuro

10-27-2012, 11:59 PM

/slowclap

If it ain't broke, don't fix it! You sir! Just broke it! Good luck trying to get to Fl100 NNL with out embrava the way it was. YOu really think people are going to find alternatives for that system now? No!

Godofgods

10-28-2012, 12:11 AM

MarkovChain

10-28-2012, 02:39 AM

Honestly if we end up getting regain on the new gear I'll call this nerf a win.

I'm going to ask the devs if they think that :

F100 nyzul is winnable without the current embrava and if so, at what % chance ?
Arch dynamis lord is killable without Perfect defense (present or future) and if so at what winnaning rate and with what realistic setup ?
Legion is killable at which rate without PD or embrava ?
Odin ?

Serious question, because we, the player base, are thinking you are checking what we do without doing it yourself in the first place. The miserable end of Nyzul II is a great example.

I also would like to point out that anything that requires more than 2 people is useless on the TEST server. You guys might as well read the comment here instead. Last thing you did were nyzul, and legion : did you really think we could evaluate or test this crap when getting past F20 solo is unlikely or killing just one legion mob is impossible ? All I can say is all this blurb is useless, just put the ajustement next or don't put it.

Camiie

10-28-2012, 02:46 AM

im glad about these nerfs actually. Its always annoyed me how some strats develop. Ppl find that one exploit, and abuse it to hell. And it leave ppl unable (or unwilling) to try any other methods. Its rather annoying.

When has it ever not been that way, and what makes you think it's going to be any different now? People will always take the path of least resistance. There will always be a single best, most efficient strategy for victory and that will invariably become the only method that's used. You really think SE will design events and mobs where there's a multitude of paths to success? You think they're going to create events where DOT and kite, tank n' spank, zerg, and other strategies are all valid options against the same opponents? How would that even work exactly?

Dantedmc

10-28-2012, 02:53 AM

im glad about these nerfs actually. Its always annoyed me how some strats develop. Ppl find that one exploit, and abuse it to hell. And it leave ppl unable (or unwilling) to try any other methods. Its rather annoying.

Nothing is stopping you from trying other methods. The problem is those methods don't work. It's not a playerbase problem, it's a SE problem. They design everything to be a zerg along with giving us max range 1000+ damage AoE nms with crazy debuffs. Now they have nerfed our abilities, but not the monsters (-10% hp is not enough.)

Calatilla

10-28-2012, 03:15 AM

im glad about these nerfs actually. Its always annoyed me how some strats develop. Ppl find that one exploit, and abuse it to hell. And it leave ppl unable (or unwilling) to try any other methods. Its rather annoying.

It's not really an exploit when some events are unwinnable without them. Sure they needed dumbing down a bit, but to make embrava useless was the wrong thing to do.

detlef

10-28-2012, 05:37 AM

Maybe there was an over-reliance on PD. On Embrava. But as Legion currently stands, isn't there an over-reliance on Stun? The concept is still the same. It's not about surviving or mitigating damage or curing yourself quickly. It's about making sure you don't get hit by it at all. Yes, you can still survive some moves in your -DT sets, but the debuffs oh those debuffs. If it's not all stat down it's weakness. Or death prophet! Make a stun resisty mob that insta-kills! In an event where you have to kill waves of mobs in 30 minutes.

Nerf PD and Embrava fine, but please come with a more appropriate nerf to the content. The TP moves are not all bad, but many are too devastating to handle reasonably.

Zuidar

10-28-2012, 11:12 AM

Now that I think about it, I feel there's more to it with why replacing Regain to Refresh effect from Embrava instead of just lowering it's potency of Regain is irrelevant. even though they stack with Refresh/Refresh II so it's great and more MP recovered for other mages. However this would only end up as a spell that's only for mages, and a useless novelty/cosmetic spell for DDs. (whatever you want to call it). I would rather have the spell Refresh from /RDM than having that and the refresh effect from embrava. Not to mention, that the spell refresh lasts 1 minute longer than the newly adjusted duration of Embrava. And to add that a RDM main in the party has refresh 2 for a reason, plus there's bards there for ballad, that's plenty refresh. Also, there's even alot of very high-level gear that has refresh, but I don't see any that has more than +1 tick Refresh, and not even savant's gown +2 in the slightest has the same refresh effect like all the other empyrean bodies.

Let's look at the differences between Pre-Nerf Embrava and Post-Nerf Embrava. Pre-Nerf, Embrava gave TP to every job that could perform Weapon skills, especially mages and Rangers (Which I will come back to).
Post-Nerf, with Embrava being restricted to only a Mage-Only support spell, the team therefore has eliminated the capabilities of allowing even mages to weapon skill (especially for procing weapon skills like Hexa Strike). This made a huge negative impact to DDs, But to Rangers they got hit even more, because haste doesn't affect their ranged attacks, refresh has absolutely no effect for them. So in DD's case, Embrava is nothing more than just another Regen spell, nothing more.

Luvbunny

10-28-2012, 11:22 AM

So basically they refuse to listen to our feedback. Why even bother asking us in the first place. If you check the japan forum and use google translate you will see that they too are not thrilled with this update, but seems like nothing is going to be done to the overwhelming negative response. You know what to do, vote with your actions, not with your words.

Alerith

10-28-2012, 12:42 PM

They really just don't seem to be understanding exactly what is wrong and why an HP reduction on the NMs is not sufficient balance.

The fact that the NMs in question have such devastating attacks that wipe you from existence is the problem. If you reduce the HP of the enemy, that does not solve this problem.

I'm sure just about everyone would rather the NM's keep their current HP and instead have adjustments made to the soul obliterating TP moves that caused PD and Embrava to even become as necessary as they have.

By all means, PD and Embrava need to be nerfed, but if this is how you insist on doing it, then you need to properly adjust the battles as well.

And, in all seriousness, does the dev team even play/test this stuff or are they arbitrary adjustments based on what they may have seen on Youtube?

Rezeak

10-28-2012, 02:28 PM

The problem is so many fold it's dumb

1. Tanks can't tank cause of the failed enmity system.
2. DDs can't hold back for tanks cause SE uses timer on all content.
3. Meaning the ONLY way we can kill mobs is avoiding dmg all together.

Which has lead to Stun or Die gameplay SE had created.

SE fixed this with Perfect Defense and Fanatics drinks.

The messed up thing is that SE can't fix it anymore without a huge overhaul.

Step one - Fix hate system
Step two - Adjust AoE DMG so that all but main target take alot less DMG
Step three - Adjust all content so that you don't have to zerg everything cause of a timer.
Step four - Adjust Aegis and Ochain since PLD is near invincible now and the ones with out may as well quit PLD or work on Aegis and Ochain

Then after these things then they should consider nerfing or removing Embrava/Perfect Denfense.

It's pretty amazing that all this (in my opinion) comes from the fed up hate system meaning the only way we could complete there content is by being near invincible but ofc cause PD was in the game that was ok.

Plasticleg

10-28-2012, 02:33 PM

Step four - Adjust Aegis and Ochain since PLD is near invincible now and the ones with out may as well quit PLD or work on Aegis and Ochain.

They're not broken at all.
Make an Ochain.

dpdhuntress

10-28-2012, 03:25 PM

Rezeak

10-29-2012, 02:13 AM

They're not broken at all.
Make an Ochain.

If they ever fix the hate system no mob in the game will be able to use magic as a main source of dmg since 99 aegis allows for -100% magic dmg taken.

As for Ochain isn't as bad but it still makes a pld immune to all normal hits and only the crazy of physical tp moves can get through.

Which is fine atm cause of mobs duel wielding nuclear silos lol.

Either way, I guess you missed the point if the hate system was fixed along with the mobs ability to deal ridiculous dmg Ochain and Aegis would definitly need to be scaled back so that there would be some challenge to the game and so that all other tanks NINs WARs none Relic/emp PLDs can acully be useful.

Honestly SE messed up the game alot w/ all the stats it dished out post abyssea making us superpowered and the only way they can balance it atm is by making mob spam insta-death move so that the challenge is to avoid these moves usually by stun or perfect defense.

Basically, if we/you want the hate system fixed so that PLD can rejoin the game then Aegis and Ochain would have to be nerfed or everything would be a joke.

It's honestly that or mobs keep spamming insta-kill moves

Byrth

10-29-2012, 02:20 AM

If they ever fix the hate system no mob in the game will be able to use magic as a main source of dmg since 99 aegis allows for -100% magic dmg taken.

Unfortunately not true:

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Magic_Damage_Taken

There is an overall cap of -87.5% damage taken, including sources that bypass the other caps.

Because you can hit the 87.5% cap with a level 90, 95, or 99 Aegis, going from 95 to 99 just lets you put a little more MDB on instead of -% MDT. Most people view it as a waste of gil.

Luvbunny

10-29-2012, 03:57 AM

Camate, could you please let the developers know, if they must stand their ground and refuse our suggestion on how to adjust Embrava and Perfect Defense, as well as adjusting NMs tp moves that is the REAL PROBLEM in the first place.

Then please consider to revamp RDMs with spells that is actually works to reduce enemy TPs, giving it plague, and making their enfeebling NOT resisted and working 100% to stop that said TP move and reducing monster critical hit rates.

As well as BUFFs Blue Mage so that their enfeeble spells works on NMs and stack with RDMs. This way instead of ZERG everything in 2 minutes or be wiped apart, endgame events should be a battle dance of how well can you control the NMs behaviour and capabilities, reducing their effectiveness to wipe your alliance, and at the same time chipping away their HPs while having several jobs set up to buffs the party.

Since you are reducing SMN's ability and forcing the 600 smn magic skills, how about making Avatar's favor more useful, and scaling up the Avatar abilities, attack, hp, and BP to 99.

Luvbunny

10-29-2012, 10:06 AM

Caketime

10-29-2012, 10:50 AM

...I like candy. >.>

Mirage

10-29-2012, 09:53 PM

BTW, try checking those forum on jobs that are quite perfect and pretty much extremely superior in what they are doing. You won't see many active serious posting other than silly crap like, Whm should have Candy Spikes. Nothing going on in Samurai forum either LOL.

Whm should have Banish 4 and 5, and it should do 1500-2000 damage to undeads!

And Holy/Holy2 should be as strong as AM on undeads. :(.

Alerith

10-30-2012, 12:13 AM

Step four - Adjust Aegis and Ochain since PLD is near invincible now and the ones with out may as well quit PLD or work on Aegis or Ochain.

If you're PLD and not going for either (or both, depending on if necessary for your shell) Aegis or Ochain, you shouldn't be playing PLD.

Contrary to popular belief, PLD is not a job you can half-ass. I'm not even done with my Ochain yet, and I can see the importance of having it.

Second, neither shield makes you immortal. Many people thought that about their Ochain PLDs because they were godlike in abysssea. Most of these people got a rude awakening when they realized they could still be killed in Voidwatch.

So, unless you have both shields, you still have a significant chance of dying.

Also, magic damage taken caps at 80 something percent.

Camiie

10-30-2012, 04:03 AM

If you're PLD and not going for either (or both, depending on if necessary for your shell) Aegis or Ochain, you shouldn't be playing PLD.

While essentially true, the fact that one needs what are supposed to be luxury items just to play the job with anything resembling functionality is a telling sign that something is very wrong in Pallytown.

Contrary to popular belief, PLD is not a job you can half-ass. I'm not even done with my Ochain yet, and I can see the importance of having it.

I suppose not having a pair of legendary-class shields that, by design, not everyone is intended to have could be considered half-assing, but I would say the real half-assers are SE for creating a job that needs such things just to function. I dunno, maybe people like that it's that way. It's not something I consider good, but maybe I'm the exception.

saevel

10-30-2012, 08:47 AM

While essentially true, the fact that one needs what are supposed to be luxury items just to play the job with anything resembling functionality is a telling sign that something is very wrong in Pallytown.

I suppose not having a pair of legendary-class shields that, by design, not everyone is intended to have could be considered half-assing, but I would say the real half-assers are SE for creating a job that needs such things just to function. I dunno, maybe people like that it's that way. It's not something I consider good, but maybe I'm the exception.

Why would a tank, or support crew for that matter, have a lower expectation of gear then a melee?

DD's are not pretty much expected to have a legendary weapon (Relic / Emp) to participate in any high end content. And while this would be messed up, getting a Emp to 85~90 is easy just like getting a Relic to 95 is easy. Both take time, but they are definitely attainable by everyone in the game.

Herby

10-30-2012, 11:25 AM

Reducing a Bosses HP, that helps alot, oh wait the boss can still one shot an alliance with ease. Reducing Embrava and PD duration isnt the answer especially since LEGION bosses are Super god like creatures. Just Squares useless power move. Then they wonder why people find ways to cheat the system because some things are just ridiculous to fight.

Here's a serious question, since i never had any experience with content like ADL or Legion, but um... would all those TP moves of those NMs still oneshot people if they had both earthen Armor and Sentinel's scherzo on them? Because that should give around ~80% damage reduction to any 1.5k and above TP move (assuming 2k hp for a melee as an example) and/or Spell and I'm not sure, but this should be curable by a good Healer.

Since I never had any experience I'm not sure if those NMs just bypass this defensive buff with like 500+ melee hits so please bear with me, if that is the case.
I'm really curious about this, because I always see people talk about Perfect defense and Embrava but never hear about the abilities we always have at our disposal instead of every 2 hours (soon to be every 1 hour).

And sorry if my english isn't the best. It's not my native language.

Mirage

10-30-2012, 11:30 AM

I think it's more because some of these heavy AoEs also come with additional effect: death on them, or various other status effects. Some of their ranges are so incredibly huge that they catch healers and stuff too, and they are a lot more squishy.

Herby

10-30-2012, 11:42 AM

Well I certainly agree on ridiculous ranges of AoEs which destroys any purpose of intelligent positioning for mages especially if those give a potent paralyze effect or something to that effect which destroys any chance of an efficient healing. Add effect death shouldn't be on AoE moves either, except for special TP moves like odins Zantetsuken which can be countered in a special way.

But if this is really the case the issue isn't really the damage of the moves themselves but rather their additional characteristics such as range, add effects and so on. So capping AoE ranges @ around 18-20yalm max should be a major help on getting those fights doable without PD/Embrava, right?

Silvers

10-30-2012, 02:27 PM

The Developers need to re-ask the question of what a 2hr JAs was for. If I recall correctly it was to give players an ability that could help turn around a battle in favor of the player was their explanation. Players generally do not use 2hr abilities if they can get by without them. You need to reassess why players are so heavily dependent on them. The arrows point to the content of the events not the abilities being used in them. Taking away the abilities or adjusting them do not break the dependency of the abilities or want ones like them. If you do what was stated, you are only treating the symptom not curing the disease in a similar way to when you adjusted Modus Veritas. Player mentality towards 2hr abilities is generally was (and for the most part still is) save them for a moment I may really need it really need it. For years this has been major fights, BC's, HNMs, that rare moment that it could save your EXP party, ECT. . Legion and NNI is no different in that aspect, except without the abilities in question probability of success is less very low.

Though you stated you do not want to go this route, instead of just adjusting the 2hrs why not put up counter measures for using the strategy that requires them in a similar way that Soul Eater and Elemental magic was dealt with. 1st undo the resistance to Soul Eater on NMs. 2nd make it that once NMs (lv 95 and higher) receive a certain amount of dmg with in a set time they start to resist, hit players with an non-erasable attack down, or resist or absorb dmg type of what caused the most dmg within that time frame (excluding VW and NNI).

For Legion, players don't live long enough to try to develop strategies and tactics for some of the monsters in there. The range of monsters spells and abilities vs. players have been talked about for years. Enmity has been an issue for while. How can we direct harmful abilities when the cap can be so reached easily by multiply players? When a NM has several crippling abilities, high stun resistance, or/and hits hard, you are going to look down at players for using JAs that allows them to engage them safely? 10 years and I’m still shock bar spells for light and dark never been added. Enmity is still set at level 75 gameplay, and we are still waiting for it to be restructured. There have been a few items that were mention that have yet to be seen and barely spoken about. There was talk about having the ability to undo charm that was never employed, not saying that charm is that big of a problem. 10% HP cut isn't going to level the playing field in Legion for not having regain from Embrava. What's wrong with Regain that players cannot have it, but the monsters in Legion can have it? Is this a regain a COR vs. SCH issue? Refresh... I ask you SE, what is a max net gain of 690mp refresh (with Af+3 and Perpetuance) good for in place of regain. The monsters in Legion are too dangerous, and that's why stun locking and zerging using are heavily used. If you think you would be really changing how players do things in Legion by adjusting Embrava the way you intent. DRK's new 2hr may take center stage along with brd if you change PD and Embrava and groups may try using more SMNs. Players will be doing the same thing they are now with different jobs and JAs. I think stopping the ability to lock Tabula Rasa and effects like it by clicking on [insert target here] would prove more effective to what SE wants to really achieve by their proposed changes to Embrava. Food for thought SE, a BRD and COR can replace Embrava and groups will still use SMNs. You will not be doing anything but change some of jobs people with bring, while they STILL USE the same tactic.

As for NNI, this has been talked about to death about how brutal this event can be. With adjustments to Embrava, first I think the reward paradigm for getting HQ gear should change floor 100= 1win, floor 80= 5wins, Floor 60= 20wins floor 40= 50wins. In addition to that, after defeating a boss should change the range of jumping to ???. Instead of 3-11 could go from 6-12 if you defeat a boss for at least one jump. Have bosses drop a key (like "??? Nyzul Key") to trade to the rune to jump higher or trade to the NPC for a chance at other effects like erasing pathos, and able to see the floor layout for a short time like 5min (item becomes ex/rare when appraised).

Perfect Defense should be more skill dependant, though I think it should be in a different way. The time could be the same and remain based on MP%, or lower the max from 90sec to 75, while the dmg reduction and the resist levels should be based on summoning magic skill. Overall I think how Alex and Odin should be changed. Let SMN be able to use them without astral flow. When they are summoned let them use something random healing/enhancing/enfeebling/damaging effect that their Prime counterparts use and then despawn at the cost of 10-12% mp. Summoning them under AF they will do their current abilities.

If changes to Embrava are needs after adjusting the content, refresh would be ok if you just add it but not replacing regain. Embrava's duration should be reflected by enhancing magic skill up to 3-4min (7min 30sec-10min with AF3+2) for a cap for the base (though I wouldn't mind letting the cap being the base it is now) and let the effects given by the spell degrade slowly. Have a base value set for the effects of Regen, Regain, Refresh and Haste set at something reasonable so the effect is still has worth when it degrades to its lowest value. Rescale the increase of the effect bonuses in relation to enhancing magic skill. Let us say @500 enhancing magic skill haste value is 36% and degrades to 14%. Depending on the rate of decay for the effects and their value, this could be a better alternative to what SE wants to do. Another option is to just configure the tic value and timing. 350HP/10TP(14MP if you want to add it) every 10sec with 25% haste @500 skill and lower the duration, I think 7mins and 30sec with AF3+2 would be within reason. If those 2 suggestions are too complex for them to code then let rapture expand accession to other parties in the alliance and have casting Embrava kills the 2hr effect and leave Embrava effects as is.

I do understand SE has a vision of how they like this game to be. The development's team image will not be the same as ours, even if they do play this game and have a passion in making it the best it can be. Do you truly think your choice of action is the best one, let alone a correct one? Being part of a team myself I can understand that artist vision as a whole of what you want people to see and experience. I think we all here can agree that there are some things that can be done better. I don't mean in just game play, but in consumer relations, communications, as well as handling small tasks and fixes among other things. People are going to judge you by what you said, what you promise, what you do, why you do, and how fast and how well it is done. With the 2hrs being reduced to a 1hr timer, to reflect the being able to access the spell more frequently, the duration of Embrava should be adjusted not the effects they give. People don't want this to be like another Miser's Roll or worst Modus Veritas where the adjustment renders what's being changed nearly useless, especially in the case of Embrava. Granted Embrava and PD can use some fine tuning, but it's not the spell and ability that is broken. It is your event content that needs the heavy adjustments. SE I can only hope you take this to heart.

Hashmalum

10-30-2012, 03:40 PM

Here's a serious question, since i never had any experience with content like ADL or Legion, but um... would all those TP moves of those NMs still oneshot people if they had both earthen Armor and Sentinel's scherzo on them? Because that should give around ~80% damage reduction to any 1.5k and above TP move (assuming 2k hp for a melee as an example) and/or Spell and I'm not sure, but this should be curable by a good Healer.

Since I never had any experience I'm not sure if those NMs just bypass this defensive buff with like 500+ melee hits so please bear with me, if that is the case.ADL's attacks individually aren't strong enough to trigger "severe damage mitigation" effects like Earthen Armor, etc. The problem is that after a certain point ADL splits into multiple ADLs who are all using their abilities at once. And "severe damage mitigation" only considers the damage done for one attack at a time. Likewise, Legion has three powerful monsters spawn at the same time. Legion's Paramount Botulus and the final form of Pandemonium Warden all by themselves can do Astral Flow with 6-8 avatars simultaneously.

Also, a number of high end mobs do instant death effects. ADL's Tera Slash sometimes inflicts death. Legion's Mired Mantis is infamous for opening with Death Prophet as soon as it is attacked, and it can use it at any time.

Besides instant death, there are also all sorts of nasty status effects that have no prevention other than Perfect Defense and no removal other than death or waiting for them to time out: Encumbrance, Weakness, Terror, Mute, etc.

Mirage

10-30-2012, 06:28 PM

To be entirely honest, AoE instant deaths shouldn't exist in a game where death means you can't participate in the fight for 5 minutes. It's just dumb. It could just as well have been an "instant disconnect" status effect.

If there is no way to counter instant death before it happens outside of one single ability that can only be used for (soon to be) 57 seconds every hour, there is simply something wrong with the game design.

If you're going to keep instant death (and even worse, AoE instant death) in the game, give us ways to efficiently counter it. Bardarkra, Bardeathra, maybe add methods of avoiding it that requires multiple jobs to reliably resist it. If a bard's dark carols + bardarkra + bardeath was enough to increase death resist rates to over 90%, then maybe it would be all right to keep AoE death moves.

Being able to negate Death like that wouldn't be "too easy" either, I think. Keep in mind that you are sacrificing a lot of buff slots to achieve it. Two song slots, one barspell slot, and some gear on top of that. It could be viable to let the tank have those buffs while using a bit fewer anti-death buffs on the other melees. That is, of course, assuming that the enmity system actually was in a workable state.

Camiie

10-30-2012, 07:57 PM

Why would a tank, or support crew for that matter, have a lower expectation of gear then a melee?

There are DD that function just fine, if not better, with normal magian weapons. I'm not sure why the support crew would need a relic/emp at all. PLDs apparently keel over dead the moment they leave the mog house unless they have Aegis or Ochain.

DD's are not pretty much expected to have a legendary weapon (Relic / Emp) to participate in any high end content.

I assume you mean "now" expected. DD seem to be expected to have a relic/emp for anything, high-end or not. Not always, but I've certainly seen shouters ask for them in events that simply don't require them.

And while this would be messed up, getting a Emp to 85~90 is easy just like getting a Relic to 95 is easy. Both take time, but they are definitely attainable by everyone in the game.

It's funny, because I'm actually finding it much harder to get my second one done than my first and my first wasn't a cakewalk and my 2nd is supposed to be much easier. The support just isn't there. That's probably just me though. I'm sure everyone else is doing just fine with theirs.

Mirage

10-30-2012, 08:02 PM

Are you saying you don't have 10 mules to hold KIs for you while you dualbox the NMs. Camiie? That's just terrible. You might as well quit right now!

But on a more serious note, has anyone mathed out the performance of various lv99 weapons compared to lv85 WoE weapons? To me, it seems like no matter what your gear and no matter which Empy it is, people think you're "good" if you have them, no matter how other weapons perform compared to them. Is a lv99 Trial-Hagun + shoha actually worse than a lv85 Masamune? Is an lv99 OA2 greatsword+resolution significantly worse than a 85 caladbolg?

No matter what the actual math says, the general feeling I get from the community is that "any Empy at any level > any other weapon that isn't relic/mythic", while almost none of them have actually read up on any math supporting that.

Alerith

10-31-2012, 02:46 AM

While essentially true, the fact that one needs what are supposed to be luxury items just to play the job with anything resembling functionality is a telling sign that something is very wrong in Pallytown.

I'm not saying they are required, but if you're playing Paladin, it likely isn't because you're needed to be PLD, but rather because you WANT to play it, in which case being a PLD like that, you should probably be working on at least one of those shields.

I suppose not having a pair of legendary-class shields that, by design, not everyone is intended to have could be considered half-assing, but I would say the real half-assers are SE for creating a job that needs such things just to function. I dunno, maybe people like that it's that way. It's not something I consider good, but maybe I'm the exception.

Not exactly what I meant.

I'm a firm believer that gear does not make a better player, but rather it can make things more manageable for a player's poorer skill level. There's a group of poorly skilled Paladins that could benefit from the crutch of Ochain or Aegis, and there are many skilled Paladin's who could benefit from the support of the same shields.

The difference is that the group that are skilled at the job don't NEED the Relic/Empyrean to at least perform at an acceptable level, while the group of not very well skilled paladins can't function as well without.

I'm not even trying to be elitist. More realist than anything. There are some people who will use the shields as a crutch for their lack of skill, and there are others who will use them to augment their already high skill with the job.

Miiyo

10-31-2012, 05:34 AM

The rewards from legion are not good enough to warrant the level of difficulty you have given it. I'm not saying change the rewards. I'm saying if the only thing you have in your yard to steal is a decent set of lawn furniture you probably don't need a 20 foot high fence topped with razor wire.

I'll say it for you. Most of the abjuration gear sucks (Whm head, body, and feet are really nice). It's as big a disappointment as level 75 evolith system and the gear that came with. It's even accompanied by augments just as sad as those with evolith. No way in the world it should be that we're here years after AF3+2 and most of the Abjurations are as expensive and retardedly hard to get as they are and they're a pile of steaming crap.

"Let's release new content and give rewards that are a ton more expensive, much more hard to get, and with worse stats than items they can much more easily obtain and probably already had!"

Progression:
1. The act of progressing; forward or onward movement.
2. A passing successively from one member of a series to the next; succession; sequence.

Silvers

10-31-2012, 07:06 AM

For both existing content and content to come in the future, I believe that conditions where special monsters are created for the sole purpose of counteracting Perfect Defense and Embrava is not desirable at all. The main idea behind the adjustments to Perfect Defense and Embrava is to correct the situation so it will not come to this.

As a result we would like to make it so summoner and scholar can widen their range of play and usefulness via other elements. We understand that these adjustments might be somewhat of an inconvenience, but we appreciate your understanding.

In other words, currently we have been giving consideration towards Perfect Defense and Embrava when making adjustments to content and monster strength. Likewise we have had to scale back new equipment stats and abilities for other jobs for the same reason.

In the event that we were to continue at this pace, content and monsters would be created where the effects of Perfect Defense and Embrava would be ineffective, so in order to redraw the standard values for content and equipment we will be making these adjustments.

We apologize for how late these adjustments are being made.

I'm starting to think that it would be a better route than staying on course with your current planned of action with as much people are against the proposed change. Making monsters render the abilities useless or near worthless in a battle situation maybe a better way in forcing players to find alternate ways of strategies to defeat monsters. SE is against Zerging, especially in certain battles. They have made this very apparent in past updates, and their proposed current one. If these changes were to go through, players would only adjust their Zerging strategy to use a few different jobs in the result would be as it has been making the patch a “temporary fix”. What SE’s been doing and want to continue to do, Only rotates and rearranges players’ perspectives on what jobs are popular.

It is the content of the monsters and events that needs to change. Players and the developers alike, can list a number of things surrounding monsters and events that are in need of adjusting. While making changes, please keep in mind past mistakes so you do not repeat actions that have put players in situations where they heavily rely on special abilities (2hrs). I would truly like to know why SE adheres to the same methodology that has generated problems in the past. Players have already tried a number of ways to complete content, maybe a different approach is in order. I would like to ask if or why not time extensions were thought to be added to Legion or Nyzul Isle Uncharted? Are the proposed changes the only way can you see to fix the abilities? Could alternatives be brought to the table by developers (and players maybe) then voted on by the FFXI community? If we could ever be part of the decision-making process, this is definitely one of time we would probably like to be in on.

Zuidar

10-31-2012, 01:07 PM

I don't see why the Dev team decided to even change regain effect into refresh in the first place instead of lowering it.
Back when this was first announced, they mentioned to lower the effects, but now they instead change and take away something our DD's loved instead of just lowering it. There's plenty of jobs that gives refresh as is already. We already have Bards for ballads, Corsairs for Evoker's Roll, Red Mage for Refresh I and II. Why does the Dev Team insist on replacing something that was unique. This wasn't necessary since we have Red Mages who shine in with their Refresh I/II, Corsairs who roll in the Evoker's, and Bards who sung their Ballads.

Now what about our spell "Adloquium", will there be any possibilities of this spell being enhanced since that Embrava will no longer be DD-friendly? (Apart from still having the Regen effect on embrava)
And to think the base duration of the RDM spell Refresh and Refresh lasts longer than that of embrava, they sure did over-did the balancing, taking away something big and unique then they give back something so little, yet typical and common

Calatilla

10-31-2012, 03:26 PM

Silvers

10-31-2012, 06:31 PM

SE created the zergs not the players, so how can you say the devs are against zerg tactics? Sticking time restrictions on battle instances, giving temp items that make you immune to physical or magical damage, a proc system that terrors the mob for a set amount of time. ADL is a case of kill or be killed, legion you have to go through several waves of mobs in a 30min window. You're encouraged to zerg content, I don't see how the devs are against it.

Look at what SE has been saying and what they had done in the past; a number of game changes were made to prevent and hamper quick kills to HNMs. My point is why make continuous adjustments to do address issue of their content being zerged that do not affect the core problems of why players implement the strategy. It's just an "Endless Waltz"; Players finds/refines a method to kill faster, Players Zerg SE's prized NMs/content, SE makes adjustments to render current zerg paradigm useless. If SE is really promoting zergs, then why do they intend such a change to Embrava? There are other adjustments that can be justly argued on this point as well that have been mentioned by others in this thread.

We do agree with that SE pushes players to zerg, and it's by their design. If we weren’t pushed to be so heavily dependent on Embrava and Perfect Defense this would had probably never been made an issue. We generally do not just fire off 2hrs at every moment it's ready. Players usually fall back on them when they feel they are needed. So why isn't the issue of players feeling they are so direly needed being really being examined or addressed? I believe they are against Zerg but do not what to completely invalidate it as a potential strategy. One thing I believe in wholeheartedly is one's interpretation or perception of fact does not exactly equal truth. I think others as well as myself, would like SE to clarify why they chose this course of action, and if there could be another with some middle ground. Be it if you agree we me fully, somewhat, or not at all on if SE is for or against zerging, I think we all can agree that content around NMs and various events needs to be changed.

saevel

10-31-2012, 07:19 PM

I'm starting to think that it would be a better route than staying on course with your current planned of action with as much people are against the proposed change. Making monsters render the abilities useless or near worthless in a battle situation maybe a better way in forcing players to find alternate ways of strategies to defeat monsters. SE is against Zerging, especially in certain battles. They have made this very apparent in past updates, and their proposed current one. If these changes were to go through, players would only adjust their Zerging strategy to use a few different jobs in the result would be as it has been making the patch a “temporary fix”. What SE’s been doing and want to continue to do, Only rotates and rearranges players’ perspectives on what jobs are popular.

You have no idea what your talking about.

Currently there is no other strategy possible for these fights. I dare you to attempt to "find another way" to kill ADL without PD (embrava isn't needed). Find "another way" to do Legion without Embrava / PD zerg. Find "another way" to kill Prov Watcher without fanatics spam / super buffing DD zerg.

Come on, tell everyone on here your wisdom and profound understanding. This new secret technique that you know of that allows us to fight monsters that one / two shot you in seconds.

Silvers

11-01-2012, 08:08 AM

You have no idea what your talking about.

Currently there is no other strategy possible for these fights. I dare you to attempt to "find another way" to kill ADL without PD (embrava isn't needed). Find "another way" to do Legion without Embrava / PD zerg. Find "another way" to kill Prov Watcher without fanatics spam / super buffing DD zerg.

Come on, tell everyone on here your wisdom and profound understanding. This new secret technique that you know of that allows us to fight monsters that one / two shot you in seconds.

Were you tired when you read the post, or are you dense? I'm hoping it's not the latter of the two. I thought that the extremist like sarcasm considering that it would be a better option opposed to all the nerfs was clear to anyone who had read the whole post. Did you bother to read it all? Here is the part that you did not quote.

It is the content of the monsters and events that needs to change. Players and the developers alike, can list a number of things surrounding monsters and events that are in need of adjusting. While making changes, please keep in mind past mistakes so you do not repeat actions that have put players in situations where they heavily rely on special abilities (2hrs). I would truly like to know why SE adheres to the same methodology that has generated problems in the past. Players have already tried a number of ways to complete content, maybe a different approach is in order. I would like to ask if or why not time extensions were thought to be added to Legion or Nyzul Isle Uncharted? Are the proposed changes the only way can you see to fix the abilities? Could alternatives be brought to the table by developers (and players maybe) then voted on by the FFXI community? If we could ever be part of the decision-making process, this is definitely one of time we would probably like to be in on.

How does the merit of your interpretation put up what you factor in the rest of what I said? Did you read up to the post before your own, namely the following within it?

… My point is why make continuous adjustments to do address issues of their content being zerged that do not affect the core problems of why players implement the strategy. It's just an "Endless Waltz"; Players finds/refines a method to kill faster, Players Zerg SE's prized NMs/content, SE makes adjustments to render current zerg paradigm useless. …

We do agree with that SE pushes players to zerg, and it's by their design. If we weren’t pushed to be so heavily dependent on Embrava and Perfect Defense this would had probably never been made an issue. We generally do not just fire off 2hrs at every moment it's ready. Players usually fall back on them when they feel they are needed. So why isn't the issue of players feeling they are so direly needed being really being examined or addressed? I believe they are against Zerg but do not what to completely invalidate it as a potential strategy. One thing I believe in wholeheartedly is one's interpretation or perception of fact does not exactly equal truth. I think others as well as myself, would like SE to clarify why they chose this course of action, and if there could be another with some middle ground. Be it if you agree we me fully, somewhat, or not at all on if SE is for or against zerging, I think we all can agree that content around NMs and various events needs to be changed.

Your perception of what I said is not how it was intended. I do understand that you may not have gotten to the post containing the contents of the quote above. I do wonder how you were able to draw your conclusion with just the post you quoted from. Perhaps that is my fault because how I structured and presented my opinion.

I do know what I'm talking about, and I do understand the situation. What is happening here isn't anything new, and the cycle finally needs to stop. They keep taking away and/or hindering our abilities. The reason why they do this is they make it seem like we fight the way we do because we just can, when in reality we do it because we don’t have other options. SE keeps affecting the only logically choice that we can make without opening up any other paths to confront their content. It's nowhere near fair.

Yugl

11-01-2012, 02:24 PM

Byrth

11-02-2012, 01:41 AM

We did some of the pre-chambers without Embrava because we have 3 scholars and 4 chambers to clear. You just have to rotate bards and get the melees some Marches. Embrava's strength in a zerg event like Legion is not the Regain, but it's the Haste and duration. SE is nerfing the Haste and the duration, which shows they understand that. What they don't seem to understand is that this will simply force us to rely on Bard swaps. Also, we don't use Summoner for much of anything anymore. We might PD some early chamber mobs just for simplicity (like the Corse), but generally we do not.

I understand perfectly well why Embrava must be nerfed. It's too much power in one spell and requires the 2-hour of one specific job to cast it. However, Embrava also may be the single most convenient enhancing magic spell in the game at the moment entirely because of the duration. Casting one spell and not having to worry about it falling for 12.5 minutes is fantastic and addresses the age-old complaints of every buffing job in the game, that they spend way too much time casting buffs. This is a great example of how spells should be. You should:
1) Increase base song durations to 3 minutes. (+70% duration * 2 = 10.2 minutes for Troub with G-horn and without Carn, 13.2 minutes with Carn, G-horn, and Troub)
2) Increase base Haste, Enspell, and Phalanx duration to 5 minutes (12.5 minutes with Perpetuance).
3) Increase base Roll duration to 10 minutes.

Nerfing Embrava was necessary because it alienated jobs and relied too heavily on 2-hour abilities, but it was unfortunate because Embrava might be the only enhancing magic in the game that has a reasonable duration and could be cast on any player target. Now instead of using Embrava we will swap bards and maintain Marches, which is annoying and hated by everyone. Congrats SE, after the nerf you will have made your game more annoying instead of more fun.

PS. We will still probably be bringing 3 Scholars to Legion even if Embrava is crap because they stun lock monsters. Expect a lot of Stun resistant crap in Adoulin.