WHATS NEW SALE PRICE FOR BLINKERS?

[Ezikiel]

WHATS NEW SALE PRICE FOR BLINKERS?

[Demon6324236]

67gil... god just go buy 1 and NPC it, easy way to find out... NO NEED TO MAKE AN ALL CAPS THREAD ABOUT IT!

[Plasticleg]

WHATS NEW SALE PRICE FOR BLINKERS?

It's a 1 way trip to GM Jail for you, criminal scum!

[Demon6324236]

If you wanna ask a question, ask a question, don't YELL IT OR PUT IT IN ALL CAPS, simply ask it, also look around, it was said in the Maintenance thread by me & a few others, as well as a Thread even titled "67 Gil Chocobo Blinkers seriously?" in the Items & Crafting forum.

[Ezikiel]

wow because it was all caps you take that as yelling lol if the message is too loud cover your ears or dont read it

[Demon6324236]

I take it as annoying, and yes, the internet equivalent of yelling.

[Draylo]

Did SE nerf blinkers guys?

[Ezikiel]

i needed to know tgauge how pissed off i would be when i logged on on a scale of 1to10 im at about 15

they now sell for about 67 gil

[Kincard]

how much are blinkers selling for guys

i think i read it was 67 somewhere but i just want to be sure

[Demon6324236]

The current selling price for blinkers are 67 gil. The new conversion rate is now 1 cruor = 0.335 gil.

[svengalis]

Something tells me this thread had alot to do with the nerf.

Converting Cruor To Gil (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26817-Converting-cruor-to-gil)

Seriously, what was the TC thinking when making a thread like that?

[Demon6324236]

Admittedly dunno who TC is, or rather, why Hashmalum is referred to as TC, either way.

[Concerned4FFxi]

maybe OP didnt get the 1st memo till now? I personally found out today myself, so please stop with the whinning about caps and start bitching about cruor conversion.

[Demon6324236]

I personally found out today myselfThats because no one in the playerbase knew before today...

[Mirage]

The update happened yesterday, though :p.

[Demon6324236]

Well, depending on time zone it hasn't been a day so far as I know. Depends on your idea of a day, a day meaning 24 hours has not passed since then, thus, it was today. Unless I am mistaken it happened less than 24 hours ago, could be wrong though, not sure when I went to sleep but I went to sleep before anything was changed or even the warnings about the servers going down were popping up.

[Mirage]

It happened around 6-7 in the evening yesterday (the 22nd) for europe, which was sometime in the morning for north america. So, not a full 24 hours ago, I guess.

[Demon6324236]

Either way, minor detail, my point was that its not as if people really found out all to long ago. Anyone who made money off it probably isn't to happy, people who based a large amount of their income off of it, definitely aren't to happy, and people who didn't often, or never did, blinker runs, don't care much or think its a good thing. In the end SE isn't likely to care what we think anyways, and there are threads all over the place for complaining I'm sure, so saying we should be complaining about it is a bit pointless as we already are.

[Luvbunny]

I only tried this once and I found this extremely inconvenience and did not even bother to do it anymore. This does not bother me so much as the fact that you can no longer sell abyssea gears to NPC, that one really is extremely annoying. The last thing everyone wants is to see RMT start swarming dynamis and taking control of those zones 24/7.

[Damane]

I only tried this once and I found this extremely inconvenience and did not even bother to do it anymore. This does not bother me so much as the fact that you can no longer sell abyssea gears to NPC, that one really is extremely annoying. The last thing everyone wants is to see RMT start swarming dynamis and taking control of those zones 24/7.

I really doubt this happens, for Dynamis your char needs lvl 65 and must have had some decent nation rank (6 i believe), to be even able to enter the base city dynamis, for CoP dynamis you need on top of that to proceed past the diabolos mission. + 2 hours only per day. Not to mention the advance jobs you need, BST /DNC some sort of TH.
the base 6 Jobs you have available from start aint gonna cut it, like they did for abyssea. They just used BLM RDM and WAR for it, which worked.

compared to Abyssea:
lvl 30 minimum only, no pre quest needed, nothing, only Abyssea stones, can enter any day, stay as long as you want with TE. basicly they could just lvl 2 chars up to 99 and then cruor FC burn for 16 mules for cruoar gain. Dynamis is way more inconvenient for them to make gil and needs some prep time. Not to mention they need to find buyers first for ancient currency.

However I can see Legit players now enter Dynamis more often. So overcrowding will be there for sure.

I doubt that RMTs will leave abyssea, you can still turn cruor to gil, just at a smaller rate its now 1 million cruor for 300k.
Factor in 2 FCers (RDM and WAR) and 16 mules... running wiht a bot maybe. if you do like 1 Million cruor in 12 hours x18 thats 18 million cruor -----> 5.4 million gil per day (i dont know how fast someone can gain cruor with normal FCs).
Still sounds less fuzzy then trying to get access to dynamis and go there only 2 hours everyday.

[Mirage]

I partially agree. I don't think there is any real danger of RMT overcrowding dynamis, for the same reasons as you point out. I am not too sure that it will be very attractive for RMTs to cruor farm anymore though, at least not in nearly the same amounts as before.

As for dynamis overcrowding by legit players, this is a real concern, but there are ways to fix it. Currently, there are certain dynamis areas that are a lot easier to farm than others, which leads to these areas being entered a lot more often than the rest. If the currently "bad" farming areas were given a boost to get closer to the best areas, people could spread out into the various zones without feeling like they're gimping their income.

For RMT however, there is one good thing about changing to dynamis, if they want to take that risk. While they would have to take a lot more care to avoid being banned, because recreating a character takes a lot more time, they can keep several characters on the same account and rotate them to farm dynamis two hours a day with every character on the same account. They would also be able to move rare/ex gear around from one character to another.

But at the same time, losing one account would then mean losing several characters, so who knows what they will end up doing.

[Demon6324236]

Think your making it sound a bit harder than it really is honestly. They could train around armies of characters as they do now, get to level 30~50 all the same, then train them around for Limit breaks which might take them a bit of time, then they do missions which is a few hours, not long, then throw on some perle & your good to go. This is assuming they do BST, which is a 15 minute quest. Sure it adds time, but it only really triples their start>money process I would think, and in the end it makes them harder to catch because they for the most part look like any other gimp bandwagon BST, while they have tons of backups if they do get banned, and have other characters to do runs on if they don't. Not saying this is what they would do, but it really doesn't seem as hard as its being made to sound imo, after all, I'm fairly sure I could take a new character from start to Dyna as lv95~99 Perle BST in only 3~4 days, and they would be doing that with what? 16 characters? So they could easily make it work I would think.

[Damane]

Think your making it sound a bit harder than it really is honestly. They could train around armies of characters as they do now, get to level 30~50 all the same, then train them around for Limit breaks which might take them a bit of time, then they do missions which is a few hours, not long, then throw on some perle & your good to go. This is assuming they do BST, which is a 15 minute quest. Sure it adds time, but it only really triples their start>money process I would think, and in the end it makes them harder to catch because they for the most part look like any other gimp bandwagon BST, while they have tons of backups if they do get banned, and have other characters to do runs on if they don't. Not saying this is what they would do, but it really doesn't seem as hard as its being made to sound imo, after all, I'm fairly sure I could take a new character from start to Dyna as lv95~99 Perle BST in only 3~4 days, and they would be doing that with what? 16 characters? So they could easily make it work I would think.

you still forget the part about /DNC, unlocking BST etc. there is way more time involved with this, and the char isnt useable for ever in dynamis, only for 2 hours per day. The time/money investment in the characters will be too big I believe, especially because they will have to competiton by themselfs and other legit players.
I really doubt strongly they will go the Dynamis route.

[Demon6324236]

They wouldn't have unlimited time in Dyna but I doubt they would try 16-boxing Dyna too, so really where 1 run ends, another begins. And your right, I did forget /DNC, that would take a bit more time, but I did actually count in the unlocking BST part, that quest is seriously very short so far as I remember. Wasn't it just talk to the chocobo guy, then talk to the guy in lower, then get the flower from Qufim at night & take it back? Thats like 15 min if your fast about it, a hour if your unlucky & get there right when night time ends.

[Trisscar]

Thanks to Square my means of making income in game is now gone and it'll be a matter time I'll be scraping on by with a couple thousand Gil in my pocket just like I did before Aby.

Way to go Square. In your misguided attempt to target RMT legitimate players have, once again, become casualties. Instead of actually addressing the problem, you have made things worse.

But worry not. I think the most of the blame rest solely on a whiny minority making a lot of noises about people Fellcleaveing, calling them RMT without so much as an iota of evidence. Are you happy now?

[Luvbunny]

As for dynamis overcrowding by legit players, this is a real concern, but there are ways to fix it. Currently, there are certain dynamis areas that are a lot easier to farm than others, which leads to these areas being entered a lot more often than the rest. If the currently "bad" farming areas were given a boost to get closer to the best areas, people could spread out into the various zones without feeling like they're gimping their income.

Totally agree, they should make city dynamis more attractive and a good alternative to currency farming. This way people have at least a good 7 zones to pick for the majority of players instead of overcrowding 3 zones. They can easily add random drops on WoTG beastmen mobs similar to how kindred seals drop, every 5 mnts or so. Adding more of these to campaign spoils would be great. Adding random 100 bills to WoTG BCNM only would also be amazing ideas. Same can be done to WoE loot, even at 1% low drop rate, it would still give incentive for players to do more of the WoTG zones.

[Aarahs]

If that's your only way of making gil, good news, you can still make gil, just at a much lower conversion rate. I'm sorry for whatever medical/mental condition prevents you from doing HELM and/or crafting for gil.

[Luvbunny]

Converting cruor to gills are great for newer players or returning players to the game. Most will sell the abysea cruor gears instead of blinkering. Only select few and a horde of RMT took advantage of these exploits, which is very similar to the NPC items exploits of yesteryear. By limiting the amount of blinkers you can get a day and how many sets of abysea gears you can purchase every 24 hours, they can easily curb this without doing much. Heck make it you can only trade 12 stacks of blinker every conquest taly or make the price rise up and down tied up with bastion level will be a better solution - more people doing bastion and bastion related quests. There are so many better ways to punish RMT but still let normal players take advantage without punishing them as well. SE just took the easy way out as usual. I did not even bother doing blinkering - they are tedious and boring, plus I found abysea alliance party boring and tedious hence never have cruors over 1 millions.

[Trisscar]

Converting cruor to gills are great for newer players or returning players to the game. Most will sell the abysea cruor gears instead of blinkering.

It's also good for players like me, whose real life restricts playing time so they can't use more 'legitimate' means to make money. It's the beast blood nerf all over again.

[Trisscar]

If that's your only way of making gil, good news, you can still make gil, just at a much lower conversion rate. I'm sorry for whatever medical/mental condition prevents you from doing HELM and/or crafting for gil.

You see I have this thing called a real life. You might have heard of it? And right now my playing time is severely restricted by my real life, you know that thing you have apparently never heard of?

[Luvbunny]

It's also good for players like me, whose real life restricts playing time so they can't use more 'legitimate' means to make money. It's the beast blood nerf all over again.

Yeah I totally understand, there are so many ways they can curb the exploits without punishing legitimate players and still give them a chance to get gill without resorting to buying. They took the easy way out, the one that has the least amount of work, hit everyone in one swoop, and giving us no other alternatives.

[Arcon]

You see I have this thing called a real life. You might have heard of it? And right now my playing time is severely restricted by my real life, you know that thing you have apparently never heard of?

So you're complaining that you can't make any money anymore without playing the game? You expect to get paid without investing in it?

I've heard exactly two complaints about blinkers nerfs, the first being that VW is now done for, which is somewhat valid, and the second being that people can't make money for doing nothing anymore, which, needless to say, is full out retarded.

The first is only valid because it's not entirely false. VW did live off of cruor for a large part, only that was not a good thing. It should have lived off of its content instead. That was something SE screwed up in an entirely different way.

[Trisscar]

So you're complaining that you can't make any money anymore without playing the game? You expect to get paid without investing in it?

I've heard exactly two complaints about blinkers nerfs, the first being that VW is now done for, which is somewhat valid, and the second being that people can't make money for doing nothing anymore, which, needless to say, is full out retarded.

The first is only valid because it's not entirely false. VW did live off of cruor for a large part, only that was not a good thing. It should have lived off of its content instead. That was something SE screwed up in an entirely different way.

And you make stupid versions of sweeping generalizations, as usual. I go into Aby and help people with killing this or that notorious monster, help shell farm souls, help complete quest/missions. I go into Voidwatch and help people progress through tiers or target (for example) Kaggen for the armor.

Because I'm a full time student, work two jobs, and take care of my mother I don't get to play as much as I'd like to so the amount of time I do play has to be divided carefully into whether I help myself or others, and it's not a whole lot of time I get to do either since I work seven days a week. I don't usually charge for helping others out so the cruor (the Aby version of currency) that I get in Aby or Voidwatch really helped me out in game so I could maintain some descent gear.

But because some pisant like you thinks that because I 'didn't earn that money' my methods of making money should be nerfed, I am now going to have to find a another way to make money by sacrificing any amount of playtime I have towards that end... Excuse me if I dislike this idea.

[Mirage]

It's pretty simple, really.

Money represents effort. When you help someone get gear in for example abyssea, your effort is expended on that person. You are giving away your resources, and you can't both give away your resources and keep them.

Because of this, cruor is generating gil out of nothing, which means gil no longer represents the resources you spent in the game (you gave these to the person you helped), which in return means that gil itself stops having value. This is a gradual process, and therefore it is not noticable in the economy itself right away. While it is going on, however, everyone feels like they are rich, because everyone's money just keeps increasing. In reality, they aren't.

[Demon6324236]

Well then you allow the greed of the human creature to consume your game experience. When you can help people & get things for it, all is fine, it allows both to profit & gives incentive to assist others more than just being nice. When you take away such an incentive you allow natural human greed to become a problem with helping people which can lead to people going without help, and being left on their own, something that goes against the very idea of a MMO.

[Mirage]

No I'm not. I am giving away my real resources (my play time is very real) to other players whenever I help them, and they give me their real resources back. Currently (or rather, before), the game handed you imaginary (cruor-gil has no real value) resources for helping people, meaning you weren't actually as generous as it seems like you think you were. You did it for fake money generated out of nothing by the server.

I am giving my cake away to someone because I am nice to them, and they give me a cake because they are being nice to me.

Now suddenly, someone starts conjuring two cakes for you every time you give someone a cake. Suddenly, giving people cake, and being given a cake doesn't feel very special anymore, and we all end up too fat to get out of our own beds.

[Demon6324236]

Difference with your analogy being that I'm not giving people gil, and gil popping right back in my inventory. This was the case in VW admittedly because you would do something like buy dust then use the cruor from the kill to turn it into over twice as much. If I went to a worm party for shits & giggles I was speeding up their kill speed a ton, at the same time I have capped merits with nothing to spend them on, I have capped xp, so no need there, and I have nothing else I get except cruor, cruor however converted to money which made it worth my time. Now that cruor is removed, I have no reason to go speed up worm parties, I have less reason to help friends with win runs on VW, I have less reason to do anything without rewards other than cruor because cruor is effectively my only reward, and is now worthless in nearly every way to me.

[Iakothm]

Well then you allow the greed of the human creature to consume your game experience. When you can help people & get things for it, all is fine, it allows both to profit & gives incentive to assist others more than just being nice. When you take away such an incentive you allow natural human greed to become a problem with helping people which can lead to people going without help, and being left on their own, something that goes against the very idea of a MMO.

.... Helping people doesn't mean getting things for yourself in return. Helping people to help them is more than enough for me. My linkshell has helped me so much in getting my gear also with missions and they didn't get anything in return for it except for the fact I help them now whenever they need it. That's how mmo's are and will be.


Difference with your analogy being that I'm not giving people gil, and gil popping right back in my inventory. This was the case in VW admittedly because you would do something like buy dust then use the cruor from the kill to turn it into over twice as much. If I went to a worm party for shits & giggles I was speeding up their kill speed a ton, at the same time I have capped merits with nothing to spend them on, I have capped xp, so no need there, and I have nothing else I get except cruor, cruor however converted to money which made it worth my time. Now that cruor is removed, I have no reason to go speed up worm parties, I have less reason to help friends with win runs on VW, I have less reason to do anything without rewards other than cruor because cruor is effectively my only reward, and is now worthless in nearly every way to me.

and this.... proves you weren't out to help people but to make money for yourself.

[Demon6324236]

No matter the reason, the point was it gave a reason for people to help eachother, which was good imo. I see far to many greedy people in this game who do whatever benefits them, and as soon as it comes to helping out others they just walk away, thats the attitude I have a problem with that cruor admittedly did help a bit.

[Mirage]

But it is the exact same with cruor! You're not helping people out of niceless, you're helping them because you get shinies. That is exactly as much greed as before.

Anyway, let me try another example.

Let's say you got 10k cruor while helping your friend out for an hour. Now you've converted this into 26k gil (using pre-nerf in this example), and walk around port jeuno checking bazaars for dynamis currency, cause you want to be a Cool Relic Guy. You buy three of them for the 26k you made earlier.

Now, what's really happened is that you paid that currency seller with the effort you gave away to your friend in abyssea earlier. You acquired something that took someone's time to gain by spending something that you did not spend time on getting. This practically means that you got the dyna currency for free (you spend no time getting money, you spent time helping someone), giving the seller nothing substantial in return, while he actually spent some time of his life specifically looking for currency.

In a way, we were "duping" gil, and SE was fine with it. Until now.

[Trisscar]

You spent time you could have been using to do just about anything else, you spent money on meds, foods, ninja tools, ammo, etcetera, you spent experience points if you died, and spent sanity points if you're dealing with idiots (like the ones who say that exchanging cruor for Gil is wrong), and exchanging cruor is wrong, how exactly?

[Hashmalum]

Something tells me this thread had alot to do with the nerf.

Converting Cruor To Gil (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26817-Converting-cruor-to-gil)

Seriously, what was the TC thinking when making a thread like that?What's a TC?

Anyway, people pointed out the chocobo blinkers thing well over a year ago on these forums. Nothing was done about it. See here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12561-Are-the-Abyssea-equipment-you-can-sell-for-100k-a-slight-error?p=163013&highlight=chocobo+blinkers#post163013), even earlier here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/3225-Cruor-Gil-Ratio?p=43819&highlight=chocobo+blinkers#post43819), and someone outright asks for it to be nerfed here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13402-Inflation.?p=178698&highlight=chocobo+blinkers#post178698). There are even more old threads in the official forums than that, just do a search for "chocobo blinkers" and you'll find them. It was not exactly secret.

Nor should it have been a secret considering the impact on the overall economy. Remember when people who were making unlimited gil off buying an item in Tavnazia then NPCing it for more than the purchase price were banned? Remember when the hordes of RMT gardeners NPCing chocobo greens were being banned? Remember when Holy Water sale prices were nerfed? You need to proceed on the assumption that everything you sell to an NPC anywhere in the game is being logged somewhere and if SE doesn't like what you are doing they will eventually notice and do something.

[Arcon]

And you make stupid versions of sweeping generalizations, as usual. I go into Aby and help people with killing this or that notorious monster, help shell farm souls, help complete quest/missions. I go into Voidwatch and help people progress through tiers or target (for example) Kaggen for the armor.

Because I'm a full time student, work two jobs, and take care of my mother I don't get to play as much as I'd like to so the amount of time I do play has to be divided carefully into whether I help myself or others, and it's not a whole lot of time I get to do either since I work seven days a week. I don't usually charge for helping others out so the cruor (the Aby version of currency) that I get in Aby or Voidwatch really helped me out in game so I could maintain some descent gear.

But because some pisant like you thinks that because I 'didn't earn that money' my methods of making money should be nerfed, I am now going to have to find a another way to make money by sacrificing any amount of playtime I have towards that end... Excuse me if I dislike this idea.

You can dislike it all you want, nothing you said makes a valid complaint. Even if you have no time for actual money making, why should you be making money then? Like I said in my previous post, you simply want to get money without working for it.


and exchanging cruor is wrong, how exactly?

There are five different explanations in this thread alone. Did you read any of it?

Most people think as long as they feel good making money everything is alright with the world. Most people are dead wrong. You never stop to think outside of your little universe. "But I had money without having to make any!" That is no argument at all. That's a very strong indicator that something isn't working right. I know you put some effort into playing, but honestly, what do you expect? Like I explained before, money is a substitute for content you can't otherwise do. Meaning money allows you to get things that you otherwise can't. Which is why, when you can't do Legion, you can make money to buy items from the people who do. But if you make money while doing something else entirely, like helping people farm seals or whatever you do with all your precious playtime, why should you be able to get the same items as people who spend their time doing Legion? Keep in mind that people in Legion actually lose money in the process, because Legion is the most expensive event right now. So you get what they get with no effort at all, while being a nice and dependable person who casually goes around and helps newbies with their missions. Does that sound fair to you?

All I hear from people complaining about it is pure egotism. They enjoyed getting money for no work (yes, I know you "worked", but you didn't work for the money, you did something else entirely and randomly got money in the process), and now that doesn't work anymore and they're upset that they actually have to invest into making money, like all the people who used their cruor for other things before.

[Trisscar]

What do you reconmend then? What do you mean by 'invest'?

Edited to add: Even in EVE online you can make money off of PvE content. You can make an easy million blowing up belt pirates, thirty million an hour just completing level four missions (which can be done solo), several hundred million selling faction ships you buy with points you earn in missions. Hell you can practically mint your own money mining.

This has been an area that FFxi has always been weak in, that there aren't enough ways to make money for interested parties.

[Arcon]

What do you reconmend then? What do you mean by 'invest'?

What are you doing with your playtime? You said you help people with their stuff mostly, which is fine, I do the same. So what do you need money for? Surely not to help them, because I've been doing the same for months and I didn't spend a single gil on it. So it's for your own gear, I assume? Well, then go ahead and work for it. Why should you advance yourself if you use all your time helping others? That's very noble of you and all, but it is supposed to be a sacrifice on your part. If you expect to get paid for doing it, that's not noble anymore, that's entitled. Who is supposed to pay you? SE? Because that's what's been going on until now.



This has been an area that FFxi has always been weak in, that there aren't enough ways to make money for interested parties.

Very false. You can still get 10M daily if you wanted to. People only don't want to invest that much time in it. Do Dynamis for example. I list that because, despite the competition and the grindfest, it's still a very easy way anyone can make money solo. I've seen DRG/DNC get over 1M per run in there, your BLU should do even better. There are plenty of ways you can still make money, even if you don't like them because they require you to give up playtime for other events. But that's how it should be, you should not be paid by SE for every action you do. You're supposed to build your character yourself, and part of that is knowing when to work for your own money.

[Trisscar]

Arcon the point I'm trying to make is that they didn't have to kill it entirely, there were a lot of ways they could have handled it.

But lets look at my history so far. I made a lot of money back in the day fishing and farming. And then they nerfed it. I made a lot of money buying gear in one region and moving it to another. And then they remove regional auction houses. And then I could make a decent living doing what I normally do. Then they practically killed it.

Don't see where I might be at least a little frustrated? I know they aren't targeting me, but it feels like it sometimes.

Now as to what I need Gil for: gear to help my other jobs be more proficient. Gil I made also allowed me to be able to play jobs I couldn't before, gear them, make sure they had their spells and to level crafting skills (something that has to be put on the back burner now since I don't have a reliable way to make money anymore) and support friends and link mates.

Why don't I farm currencies to sell then?

I'm making my first relic, what makes you think I can spare currencies for anyone else?

Also you probably missed this part while you were busy missing the point:


Edited to add: Even in EVE online you can make money off of PvE content. You can make an easy million blowing up belt pirates, thirty million an hour just completing level four missions (which can be done solo), several hundred million selling faction ships you buy with points you earn in missions. Hell you can practically mint your own money mining.

None of this is an exaggeration. I, personally, have made more money per hour in EVE than I had in my first year my entire time of playing FFxi... Most modern MMO it isn't an issue making money quickly at all.

Do a quest, get money. Get rinky dink gear. Sell rinkydink gear. Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Iakothm]

Arcon the point I'm trying to make is that they didn't have to kill it entirely, there were a lot of ways they could have handled it.

But lets look at my history so far. I made a lot of money back in the day fishing and farming. And then they nerfed it. I made a lot of money buying gear in one region and moving it to another. And then they remove regional auction houses. And then I could make a decent living doing what I normally do. Then they practically killed it.

Don't see where I might be at least a little frustrated? I know they aren't targeting me, but it feels like it sometimes.

Now as to what I need Gil for: gear to help my other jobs be more proficient. Gil I made also allowed me to be able to play jobs I couldn't before, gear them, make sure they had their spells and to level crafting skills (something that has to be put on the back burner now since I don't have a reliable way to make money anymore) and support friends and link mates.

Why don't I farm currencies to sell then?

I'm making my first relic, what makes you think I can spare currencies for anyone else?

Also you probably missed this part while you were busy missing the point:



None of this is an exaggeration. I, personally, have made more money per hour in EVE than I had in my first year my entire time of playing FFxi... Most modern MMO it isn't an issue making money quickly at all.

Do a quest, get money. Get rinky dink gear. Sell rinkydink gear. Wash, rinse, repeat.

and i bet all the items in eve cost you more than you spent in your entire ffxi lifetime. Don't compare 2 completely different games like that because it just makes you look dumb and desperate.

you say you bought items from a place and sold them in another that's the same as the aby you are doing nothing and expecting money. Don't expect to make a relic and get money at the same time especially if your time in ffxi is SOOOOOOO limited that you can't craft. How exactly can you not make money fishing as well if you have so little time to play ffxi? All I hear is you whining about the nerf because it was an easy money way.

[SpankWustler]

I deeply regret not making it to this topic before relatively serious discussion erupted. A golden opportunity to post the truly classic "OMFG IT'S CAIT SITH!" meme image is now gone forever, like the tears of Altana in the rain.

Or at the very least, delayed until sometime in 2013.

[Arcon]

Why don't I farm currencies to sell then?

I'm making my first relic, what makes you think I can spare currencies for anyone else?

Yes? Why can't you? If you don't have enough money to get by, a relic should not be your top priority. Farm currency to sell for other things, after you've made 10M (which is a few days) you can still farm for your relic and you only lost a few hours playtime. Conversely, you're now rich enough for plenty things, definitely enough to get by. Enough to gear several jobs adequately, buy all spells you'll ever need (except Meteor and Arise) and even invest some into skilling a craft. And that was only for a few hours worth of your playtime. Or is that unacceptable to you?


Also you probably missed this part while you were busy missing the point:

I didn't miss it, I just didn't grace it with valuable seconds of my time to form a reply, because I don't know EVE, and for all I know it could be entirely irrelevant. If EVE's economy type and market type is even slightly different than FFXI's, the same rules may not apply and money could mean something entirely different, as well as the acquisition of money.


None of this is an exaggeration. I, personally, have made more money per hour in EVE than I had in my first year my entire time of playing FFxi... Most modern MMO it isn't an issue making money quickly at all.

So what? That just means currency is worth a lot less in EVE. That's like bragging that you are richer than someone else because you have 1000 yen and they only have 10 US dollars, which would be just as pointless, because you'd be wrong.

[svengalis]

No matter the reason, the point was it gave a reason for people to help eachother, which was good imo. I see far to many greedy people in this game who do whatever benefits them, and as soon as it comes to helping out others they just walk away, thats the attitude I have a problem with that cruor admittedly did help a bit.

Why is someone greedy just because when they log on they want to progress their character? Isn't that why we all log on and continue to log on because we want to progress our characters? If all you are doing is helping eventually you will stop logging on. Lets remember this is a pay to play mmo.

[Demon6324236]

Well, if you want to know the honest truth, the majority of what I used to do on this game was help people when/if I could, at that time, I was paying for it. I was also paying for my friends account, now he pays for us both, so really I'm paying nothing, however I am much more selfish now that I don't pay, rather than when I did. This has little relevance in my opinion, but my point was that if people are getting something out of doing something else they are more likely to do it. If I go ask my LS to help me make an Ukon, but tell them I want all of the +2s from it as well, what do they come for? Just to help out? Not likely, at the same time, offer them +2s & they come if they need it, but if they don't then oh well. Everyone needs gil, great incentive, worked well, the point was that it gave a reason to help people, even if that was not your end goal because you really wanted money, and it was just a side effect.

When it comes down to "abusing" blinkers btw, this is partly how I classify it. If you intentionally went out of your way to get gil via blinkers, you abused it, by this I mean going out to cruor farm with 5 mules for hours. However if you do VW, merit in a xp party, do seals, do Emps, or anything else I didn't list that rewards cruor, then I don't think you abused it, you simply used it for something rather than letting it sit there & goto waste. My example above of people doing things for money & simply helping people out as the cherry on top is abusing it in a way, your goal is the cruor & gil, not the person being helped. If your helping to help & you get something in return then awesome, you got something too, but I don't think of you as abusing it.

I think the idea should be to have fun whatever your doin in the game. Making money should not be a boring drag that we muddle through because we want a piece of virtual gear or money that has no real value. I goto work & get to be bored there, when I come home I know I made real money, real money pays real bills, this is real life, so even though its boring, its important. I can not say the same for gil, I shouldnt have to be bored working to make money in a game, so I can get some fake money to pay for fake items in my games so I can go do some potentially fun things after I just bored myself for a few hours. I find many money making things boring in this game which is where this problem branches from for me, and unless it changes I plan to stay poor for some time.
Who is supposed to pay you? SE? Because that's what's been going on until now.

But that's how it should be, you should not be paid by SE for every action you do.SE is not supposed to pay us, we pay them with real money, why should we have to bore ourselves in a game after giving them our real money, just so we can get some fake money to buy some items in a game we are supposed to be playing for fun? Easy answer, we shouldn't, a game by definition is an amusement or pastime according to my dictionary, so why should this "game" be something that forces its players to be bored in order to make progress.

[Trisscar]

and i bet all the items in eve cost you more than you spent in your entire ffxi lifetime. Don't compare 2 completely different games like that because it just makes you look dumb and desperate.

No. You know what does make people look stupid though? Talking about something you don't know the first thing about.

The ships don't start getting expensive until Battleships, the most expensive of which (outside of T2) is about 200 million. I've seen people pay more an that on Kraken Club alone, and basic gear ranges from five thousand to two million creds apiece. Meaning a fully geared CNC Battleship costs less than a single club.

What's up with that? That is a huge disparity in a game in which it's far more difficult to make significant amounts of Gil.

But you're right, I shouldn't be comparing two radically different games. So I'll compare FFxi with itself.

Killing Behemoth drops Gil every time you kill it, about fifteen thousand if I recall right. You can make more than that farming Lady Bug wings... Yeah, you read that right. You get paid more per hour killing lady bugs than you do killing a legendary monster. You mind telling me in what universe that makes any kind of sense?

But I suppose in your mind that neither person 'earned that Gil'?

So let's examine the activities of the people you claim 'earned that Gil', shall we?

1.) Buy material off of Auction House.

2.) Synth.

3.) Maybe get lucky and get HQ.

4.) Over charge for HQ.

5.) ???

6.) Profit!

...

Yeah, I can really see how they 'earned it'.

[Arcon]

When it comes down to "abusing" blinkers btw, this is partly how I classify it. If you intentionally went out of your way to get gil via blinkers, you abused it, by this I mean going out to cruor farm with 5 mules for hours. However if you do VW, merit in a xp party, do seals, do Emps, or anything else I didn't list that rewards cruor, then I don't think you abused it, you simply used it for something rather than letting it sit there & goto waste. My example above of people doing things for money & simply helping people out as the cherry on top is abusing it in a way, your goal is the cruor & gil, not the person being helped. If your helping to help & you get something in return then awesome, you got something too, but I don't think of you as abusing it.

Fully agree. I also never said VW should not be rewarding. I said doing it with cruor was the wrong way, because cruor themselves should not be that expensive. If they made VW drop gil instead of cruor now, I'd be perfectly ok with it.


I think the idea should be to have fun whatever your doin in the game. Making money should not be a boring drag that we muddle through because we want a piece of virtual gear or money that has no real value. I goto work & get to be bored there, when I come home I know I made real money, real money pays real bills, this is real life, so even though its boring, its important. I can not say the same for gil, I shouldnt have to be bored working to make money in a game, so I can get some fake money to pay for fake items in my games so I can go do some potentially fun things after I just bored myself for a few hours. I find many money making things boring in this game which is where this problem branches from for me, and unless it changes I plan to stay poor for some time.

This is not how an economy can be sustained, it's completely impossible. I know it's what you want, it's what many people want, but that doesn't change the fact that it's impossible. Making money can not be easy, quick and fun, if it was no player-based economy could possibly work, because it would inhibit supply, because people would just try to obtain items with money instead of playing the game. Lots of cashflow, little supply, big demand means inflation, and that would widen the gap between the poor and the rich even more. And even if you don't want to believe it, while Blinkers were in effect you were poor, regardless of how easy you think money came to you. Because whatever you make, others will make thousand times more, and when supply gets low it's them who'll be able to afford items, because they can outbid you. You weren't making money with cruor, you were losing it.


SE is not supposed to pay us, we pay them with real money, why should we have to bore ourselves in a game after giving them our real money, just so we can get some fake money to buy some items in a game we are supposed to be playing for fun? Easy answer, we shouldn't, a game by definition is an amusement or pastime according to my dictionary, so why should this "game" be something that forces its players to be bored in order to make progress.

Was your dictionary written by the Nintendo Wii development team? Certainly sounds like it. It's not what makes a game, and it's by no means what defines a game, and it's even less what I play for. I find joy in achievement, not amusement, and that is what has defined FFXI for a decade, which is why it's reasonable to assume that I'm not the only one feeling that way. In fact, I'm pretty sure it applies to you as well, otherwise you wouldn't have stuck around this long.

[Trisscar]

Arcon if you were working at a job doing something that you absolutely enjoy doing would you work for free?

Of course you wouldn't, because money is a necessity for day-to-day life.

Now in the game we play the part of professional adventurers. It is our job to go out, explore, slay monsters, gather materials for crafters, and on. And yet you want to restrict getting paid to actually go out and do our jobs... Because?

Also, like I said before, making significant amounts of money in most other MMO is not an issue (hell, it isn't half as difficult in FFxiv). Their economies don't seem to be in any trouble. Why should that be any different here?

Why should it be an hard to achieve achievement To make just enough money for decent gear?

Last I checked this isn't a financial simulation, making Gil is not the chief goal of the game. This it shouldn't be like pulling teeth.

[Arcon]

Arcon if you were working at a job doing something that you absolutely enjoy doing would you work for free?

And do you complain about life because making money is not fun? Are you one of those people who write politicians they should get more money for no reason other than that you could use it and thinks it's unfair that they don't have any?

Also, people who enjoy their jobs are the exception, just like people who enjoy making money ingame. I enjoy Salvage a lot, but I would never argue that making money is fun already, because I know it doesn't extend to everyone.


Now in the game we play the part of professional adventurers. It is our job to go out, explore, slay monsters, gather materials for crafters, and on. And yet you want to restrict getting paid to actually go out and do our jobs... Because?

Because the NPCs aren't paying us. They can't run out of money. We create money out of nothing. That is what's fucking with the economy.

And we already get rewarded for every single event there is, it's just not always money. Cruor is good for other things as well, in case you didn't notice.


Also, like I said before, making significant amounts of money in most other MMO is not an issue (hell, it isn't half as difficult in FFxiv). Their economies don't seem to be in any trouble. Why should it be an achievement just to make Gil to get decent gear?

I don't know anything about their economies, so I can't comment. But like I said before, if things are even slightly different, the situations don't compare and the same rules can't be applied. Also, I'm not sure you know anything about their economies either, judging by your previous comments on that topic.


Last I check this isn't a financial simulation, making Gil is not the chief goal of the game.

Precisely. So why do you focus so much on it? It's the chief goal to do events, not to make gil to buy the crap you can get there.

[Doombringer]

also... kraken clubs don't explode. so... there's that.

not to mention that a battleship is not as high on the eve price scale as a kraken club here. titans cost about 90 billion to make, and most people can't make them. so they're easily 120 billion on the open market. (it's not like crafting here where every player is a self contained factory. you need access to facilities in eve, and the largest facilities can only be set up in remote player owned space. so basically: for just the privelage of assembling a titan, you need to conquer and hold a small swath of space. not to mention the overhead on the facility itself)

granted most players don't own titans, but most players don't own kraken clubs either. i own several battleships and who the fuck am i? nobody, that's who.


but more on topic, this is gonna suck short term but it'll probably even out eventually. the market will adjust to people not being able to generate large amounts of easy gil, so things will hopefully get cheaper over time. (i say hopefully because i dunno how much gil is actually removed from the system every day via stuff like taxes, airship rides, chocobo rentals, buying stuff from npc's, so on etc. it may be that we'll just see prices go up slower)

just wish i'd turned in my cruor before this all went down. guess it's time to make it rain brews or something...

[Trisscar]

And do you complain about life because making money is not fun? Are you one of those people who write politicians they should get more money for no reason other than that you could use it and thinks it's unfair that they don't have any?

No, I work two jobs. The difference between real life and FFxi? I'm garanteed to get paid for working. In FFxi it's a crap shot.


Also, people who enjoy their jobs are the exception, just like people who enjoy making money ingame. I enjoy Salvage a lot, but I would never argue that making money is fun already, because I know it doesn't extend to everyone.

I'm not arguing that making money should be made fun, I'm arguing that making money should be possible to do.




Because the NPCs aren't paying us. They can't run out of money. We create money out of nothing. That is what's fucking with the economy.

Are we even playing the same game? The economy has been very stable in FFxi for a while now, somewhat inflated prices none withstanding. But I know your game. When prices come crashing down, and they will, you'll be here complaining yet again about the prices.

You want to be able to have low prices when you buy and high prices when you sell. Well I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways.






I don't know anything about their economies, so I can't comment. But like I said before, if things are even slightly different, the situations don't compare and the same rules can't be applied. Also, I'm not sure you know anything about their economies either, judging by your previous comments on that topic.

Yeah, sure. What ever you say.

[Trisscar]

also... kraken clubs don't explode. so... there's that.

not to mention that a battleship is not as high on the eve price scale as a kraken club here. titans cost about 90 billion to make, and most people can't make them. so they're easily 120 billion on the open market. (it's not like crafting here where every player is a self contained factory. you need access to facilities in eve, and the largest facilities can only be set up in remote player owned space. so basically: for just the privelage of assembling a titan, you need to conquer and hold a small swath of space. not to mention the overhead on the facility itself)

granted most players don't own titans, but most players don't own kraken clubs either. i own several battleships and who the fuck am i? nobody, that's who.


but more on topic, this is gonna suck short term but it'll probably even out eventually. the market will adjust to people not being able to generate large amounts of easy gil, so things will hopefully get cheaper over time. (i say hopefully because i dunno how much gil is actually removed from the system every day via stuff like taxes, airship rides, chocobo rentals, buying stuff from npc's, so on etc. it may be that we'll just see prices go up slower)

just wish i'd turned in my cruor before this all went down. guess it's time to make it rain brews or something...

Capital ships in general and Titans in particular are not personal possessions, they're owned by the corporation. Kraken Clubs are personal possessions, so I compared it to other personal possessions.

To be more accurate about extreme personal wealth being spent on ships you'd have to compare it to Strategic Cruisers, the frames of which (last I checked) cost 50 billion by themselves, 10 billion for each module (another 50 billion, assuming you don't purchase all 15 modules unique to all four Strategic Cruisers which most don't), and probably another 10 billion if you gear it with officer and/or dead space equipment.

That's also putting aside creds for skill books and time spent training. It's outside the reach of your average pilot, but it's possible to get.

[JohnGotti]

This Arcon guy is a real funny dude, with his high and mighty morals you would never guess the linkshell he is in used to make and sell packetbots for the hnm days.

Good old Melons eh Arcon

[Arcon]

No, I work two jobs. The difference between real life and FFxi? I'm garanteed to get paid for working. In FFxi it's a crap shot.

I'm not arguing that making money should be made fun, I'm arguing that making money should be possible to do.

It's not a crapshoot, making money in FFXI is guaranteed if you put effort in. Yes, it's a matter of luck if you make 2.5M in a Dynamis run, with no competition and lucky procs/drops, or only 1.5M with much competition and shitty procs, but either way you make decent money, and unlike cruor it does not hurt the economy.


Are we even playing the same game? The economy has been very stable in FFxi for a while now, somewhat inflated prices none withstanding.

Yes withstanding, very much withstanding, inflated prices is almost the definition of an unstable economy.


But I know your game. When prices come crashing down, and they will, you'll be here complaining yet again about the prices.

You know very little, as you've repeatedly demonstrated. I don't even need money at all in this game, I'm very happy where I am now. My complaint is that an inflation would suck for everyone around me, especially new players, which my LS is full of.


You want to be able to have low prices when you buy and high prices when you sell. Well I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways.

Oh, I can. That's precisely how I got rich at 75. Buy and resale. I made tens of millions in a few months just bazaaring overnight. It works extremely well. And it's still not at all related to what's going on here. I can make money in a dozen ways if I wanted to (as can you), with or without cruor. All this change did was remove a way to passively make money, and that's what disturbs many people, which, in turn, I find pretty disturbing, because I find it hard to believe that anyone thought that was an acceptable state of the game. I honestly don't see how people can be that short-sighted.

[Doombringer]

Capital ships in general and Titans in particular are not personal possessions, they're owned by the corporation. Kraken Clubs are personal possessions, so I compared it to other personal possessions.

To be more accurate about extreme personal wealth being spent on ships you'd have to compare it to Strategic Cruisers, the frames of which (last I checked) cost 50 billion for the frame, 10 billion for each module (another 50 billion), and probably another 10 billion if you gear it with officer and/or dead space equipment.

That's also putting aside creds for skill books and time spent training. It's outside the reach of your average pilot, but it's possible to get.


that reminds me, yah.. the numbers i quoted for titans are just the hull, no modules.

but it is also true that there are very few (if any) privately owned titans. so fair enough there.

but even with a T3 cruiser, you are an order of magnitude above anything HERE, with the added caveat that no matter how powerful the ship and the modules you fit to it, it's all technically "consumable" when somebody flies up and kills you.

basically eve HAS to shit isk, because it has FAR more isk sinks than we have gil sinks. (potentially every other pilot)

[Arcon]

This Arcon guy is a real funny dude, with his high and mighty morals you would never guess the linkshell he is in used to make and sell packetbots for the hnm days.

First, I don't have any morals and never claimed to. Morals are for losers and pussies. I'm not arguing morality here, I'm arguing a sustainable economy.

Second, no LS I'm in was even around back in those days.

[JohnGotti]

Your in Dazuzu linkshell right ? He used to sell melons for gil or $ back then.

[Dazusu]

Your in Dazuzu linkshell right ? He used to sell melons for gil or $ back then.

Arcon isn't in my Linkshell, no. Secondly, mule account, really? and finally:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_LTFtTbIQoLc/S-QXtn-jjBI/AAAAAAAAAPA/4Zq_PVCNiZk/s320/melon.jpg

[Arcon]

Your in Dazuzu linkshell right ? He used to sell melons for gil or $ back then.

No I'm not and melons are delicious.

[JohnGotti]

Arcon isn't in my Linkshell, no. Secondly, mule account, really? and finally:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_LTFtTbIQoLc/S-QXtn-jjBI/AAAAAAAAAPA/4Zq_PVCNiZk/s320/melon.jpg

Are you going to deny selling the packetbot now Scotchman ? We both know you used to sell it you ripped mafais bot off and then sold it on for gil or $ no point denying it lol.

[Trisscar]

It's not a crapshoot, making money in FFXI is guaranteed if you put effort in. Yes, it's a matter of luck if you make 2.5M in a Dynamis run, with no competition and lucky procs/drops, or only 1.5M with much competition and shitty procs, but either way you make decent money, and unlike cruor it does not hurt the economy.

All that money circulating through the economy, where do you think it ultimately comes from? If you guessed anything other than NPC, then you are wrong. Because entropy is inherent in a closed system when there is no outside energy being received. It's true for physics, it's true for economies.




Yes withstanding, very much withstanding, inflated prices is almost the definition of an unstable economy.

Yes, please keep on demonstrating your complete lack of understanding while I show you why you are wrong:

In an unstable economy you expect to see trends in sharp rise and fall in such things like the price of goods offered over a short period of time. That isn't what we've been seeing. Instead, after the initial inflation due to new influx of money in the system, prices stabilized and held steady.

Yeah, I'd call that unstable alright.



Look, I agree that making money shouldn't be the be all end all of the game. But it shouldn't be so difficult that you need do hours of old content solo just to make ends meet.

[Trisscar]

that reminds me, yah.. the numbers i quoted for titans are just the hull, no modules.

but it is also true that there are very few (if any) privately owned titans. so fair enough there.

but even with a T3 cruiser, you are an order of magnitude above anything HERE, with the added caveat that no matter how powerful the ship and the modules you fit to it, it's all technically "consumable" when somebody flies up and kills you.

basically eve HAS to shit isk, because it has FAR more isk sinks than we have gil sinks. (potentially every other pilot)

Fair enough. But the difference between Strategic Cruisers and just about any Gil sink? Strategic Cruisers are heads and shoulders above just about anything else flying out there (also a reason why they are generally a good investment, there isn't much out there that can threaten one). Compare that to just about any HQ where it's 15 million Gil or more compared to its NQ counterpart at 1 million.

What are you paying for, apart from an extra +2 here or there?

[Arcon]

All that money circulating through the economy, where do you think it ultimately comes from? If you guessed anything other than NPC, then you are wrong. Because entropy is inherent in a closed system when there is no outside energy being received. It's true for physics, it's true for economies.

Dosage is what matters. Where do you think money came from before cruor? NPC vendors. So it was obviously possible without. Only cruor significantly accelerated that process.


In an unstable economy you expect to see trends in sharp rise and fall in such things like the price of goods offered over a short period of time. That isn't what we've been seeing. Instead, after the initial inflation due to new influx of money in the system, prices stabilized and held steady.

That's not what an unstable economy is. Unstable doesn't have to rise and fall, it can do just one of the two, in this case inflation. And the price never stabilized, it went up significantly. You didn't notice it much for two reasons, first the demand was lowered. When demand drops, prices are supposed to drop. Instead they went up further, such as with currency for example.

Also, new people joined and old people reactivated when SoA was announced. With more people to distribute to, the influx of cash was not as noticeable, because people absorbed it. You would have noticed it a lot more if you waited a bit longer, until people stopped coming but gil kept on increasing. Which is why it wasn't a bad thing that they stopped it now.


Look, I agree that making money shouldn't be the be all end all of the game. But it shouldn't be so difficult that you need do hours of old content solo just to make ends meet.

Maybe your ends and my ends differ, but I didn't farm a single gil in the last month, and I kept playing throughout this time, and I still got enough money from just random drops to get by.

[Trisscar]

Hey Arcon look to the left of the screen. See that server beneath my name? That's right, brainchild. You and I are on the same server.

That means I have been watching the same market you have been all this time at the same time as you, under the same circumstances.

Auction House prices haven't been getting steadily higher, and neither have currency prices. In fact a lot of people have noticed a decrease in currency prices (due the flood of currencies). I figure you believe that if currency prices plummet enough people will stop farming Dynamis and you'd have no more competition...

What, you thought no one would see through your motives?

[Xantavia]

Arcon the point I'm trying to make is that they didn't have to kill it entirely, there were a lot of ways they could have handled it.
But they didn't kill it entirely. You can still sell blinkers to NPC's, but at a vastly reduced rate. You can still make gil, just not as fast as before.

[Arcon]

Hey Arcon look to the left of the screen. See that server beneath my name? That's right, brainchild. You and I are on the same server.

Yes Louisville, KY, I know you very well. I told you all of that regardless, because you obviously aren't paying any attention to the prices at all if you actually believe what you're saying here.


Auction House prices haven't been getting steadily higher, and neither have currency prices. In fact a lot of people have noticed a decrease in currency prices (due the flood of currencies).

A lot of people are wrong, and so are you. Prices dropped when people started spamming Dynamis, before cruor farming became popular. When I completed my Mandau, I paid 5.5k per Whiteshell, now they're back up to 7k. People are even shouting for 9.5k bronzepieces, and I remember buying them for under 7k. Even VW items went back up. People thought Heka's cells would fall, but they're up to 4M each again (after being under 3M for a while). Comeatmebro and his mules bought Coruscanti cells for up to 15M. Where do you think their money came from? Could your VW money afford that? Because their mulefest in Abyssea - Misareaux could afford several of those cells every day. That's a prime example of someone getting something you can't in this economy, because to them money means nothing. To you it does, obviously.


I figure you believe that if currency prices plummet enough people will stop farming Dynamis and you'd have no more competition...

What, you thought no one would see through your motives?

I never farmed Dynamis and I never intend to, because I hate boring grinds.

[Zagen]

I never farmed Dynamis and I never intend to, because I hate boring grinds.
Yet you play FFXI?

[Mirage]

Maybe he prefers exciting grinds.

[Arbalest]

But they didn't kill it entirely. You can still sell blinkers to NPC's, but at a vastly reduced rate. You can still make gil, just not as fast as before.

But if the conversion rate is.. it was like 2.555 pre-nerf, I think. What is it now, 1 cruor = .63 gil? I don't know.

If the conversion rate is say, 1/5 of what it used to be, that would mean you need 5 times as much cruor to get the same amount of gil you used to make from X amount of blinker stacks. That makes it a lot more time consuming.. and probably pointless.

I wish SE knew how to run their own game, lol. Kinda happy I'm on break from this game.

[Mirage]

In this particular case, SE does know how to run their own game. You should post in a different thread if you want to talk about poor decisions. Don't worry, there are plenty to choose from, but this is not one of them.

[Trisscar]

But they didn't kill it entirely. You can still sell blinkers to NPC's, but at a vastly reduced rate. You can still make gil, just not as fast as before.

I do not have acces to blinkers, I made money processing cruor gear.

[Mirage]

What do you mean by not access to? Did you not install the second expansion?

In that case, does that mean your almace is still level 80?

[Trisscar]

What do you mean by not access to? Did you not install the second expansion?

In that case, does that mean your almace is still level 80?

I never did the quest to get access to the option to get blinders.

And no. It's level 85.

[Mirage]

I never did that quest either, still had access to them. Even if I'm wrong, it's not too late to do the quest.

[Doombringer]

don't have access to blinkers? say what?! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT82F8rco6U)


you just need to log the op, you don't need to complete any of them. though i guess it hardly matters now. :\

[Zagen]

I never did the quest to get access to the option to get blinders.

You don't have to do the quest as in complete it, just start it. Also there are 0 prerequisites to access the quest.

[Arbalest]

In this particular case, SE does know how to run their own game. You should post in a different thread if you want to talk about poor decisions. Don't worry, there are plenty to choose from, but this is not one of them.

Changing something to punish legitimate players without managing to find a way to only punish those who need to be, i.e. gilsellers? lol, that's funny.

[Mirage]

Legitimate players were the target, because legitimate players were farming cruor gil like crazy as well. In the process, gilsellers got a bit of a blow as well. Nothing wrong with any of this.

Before you ask, yes, I converted a lot of cruor. It is still a terrible thing.

[Zagen]

Legitimate players were the target, because legitimate players were farming cruor gil like crazy as well. In the process, gilsellers got a bit of a blow as well. Nothing wrong with any of this.

I don't know if this applies across all servers or was Bismarck exclusive but while all the players who needed jobs leveled were happy enough paying RMT for cleave parties this wasn't something RMT participated in, at least not to the large levels prior to the nerf. Once people stopped wanting to pay for leech spots because they'd all leveled to cap RMT had to find something else and this was it.

So I disagree with this being targeted toward players, if it was it would have been sooner. This was the easiest way to "stop RMT" regardless of how it affected players. Besides it's not like the players would be mad SE is stopping the RMT which players hate...

[Mirage]

Far from all leech cleave parties were RMT. While I realize this is second hand info, friends of mine who did participate in them were usually of the opinion that the non-RMT cleave parties were better. Probably due to having better gear and stuff.

There are legitimate players with capped gil on several mules as a direct result of cleaving for weeks. It wouldn't be a very far stretch to claim that there has been more money generated from cruor grinding than from the old tavnazia npc-buy-sell exploit back in the day. Partially because SE let this go on for a lot longer, though, and did never once even hint towards it being considered an exploit after being told about it several times.

Additionally, even if RMT didn't actually cleave with an alliance full of rmt multiaccounts to gain cruor, they indirectly soaked up the cruor generated by their paying customers, because a large amount of the gil they paid for cruor parties with were made from cruor. Not always by them directly, but somewhere down the line.

While I am sure there would always be someone who were willing to pay 100k an hour to be PLed, choosing this path is a lot easier when you know you'll get more than the gil back as cruor in the process. No matter how poor you were, as long as you managed to get 60k cruor somewhere, you could start cleave leeching forever without ever losing gil from it.

The bottom line is that this issue arose from both RMT and legitimate players. Both generated a tremendous amount of gil out of nothing. Orders of magnitude more than what was drained out of circulation through NPCs.

[Zagen]

Far from all leech cleave parties were RMT. While I realize this is second hand info, friends of mine who did participate in them were usually of the opinion that the non-RMT cleave parties were better. Probably due to having better gear and stuff.

There are legitimate players with capped gil on several mules as a direct result of cleaving for weeks. It wouldn't be a very far stretch to claim that there has been more money generated from cruor grinding than from the old tavnazia npc-buy-sell exploit back in the day. Partially because SE let this go on for a lot longer, though, and did never once even hint towards it being considered an exploit after being told about it several times.

Additionally, even if RMT didn't actually cleave with an alliance full of rmt multiaccounts to gain cruor, they indirectly soaked up the cruor generated by their paying customers, because a large amount of the gil they paid for cruor parties with were made from cruor. Not always by them directly, but somewhere down the line.

While I am sure there would always be someone who were willing to pay 100k an hour to be PLed, choosing this path is a lot easier when you know you'll get more than the gil back as cruor in the process. No matter how poor you were, as long as you managed to get 60k cruor somewhere, you could start cleave leeching forever without ever losing gil from it.

The bottom line is that this issue arose from both RMT and legitimate players. Both generated a tremendous amount of gil out of nothing. Orders of magnitude more than what was drained out of circulation through NPCs.

I never said all cleave groups were RMT I said that's what RMT did and it was obvious when it was RMT vs. Legit players.

2 years of players abusing it openly begs to differ with your opinion as to the RMT not being the deciding factor for the nerf.

[Arcon]

Yet you play FFXI?

Indeed, and I never grind anything, except when I'm helping LS people farm empyreans. This game was only a grind to me when old EXP was around. Ever since that's gone, I've been having fun with pretty much everything I do. FFXI is only a grindfest if you're boring and don't know what else you can do.


2 years of players abusing it openly begs to differ with your opinion as to the RMT not being the deciding factor for the nerf.

RMT have been abusing it for the same time, and more than legit players too. I've heard an interesting argument yesterday for why it may have been only now, maybe SE was ok with creating more money for the upcoming expansion, so more money is in circulation again for when new people sign up (or old people return). But I'm not sure if that's the case, because it feels like they've let it go a bit too far, especially with some certain individuals who were botting cruor 24/7 for months and can now buy the entire game if they wanted to.

[Zagen]

Indeed, and I never grind anything, except when I'm helping LS people farm empyreans. This game was only a grind to me when old EXP was around. Ever since that's gone, I've been having fun with pretty much everything I do. FFXI is only a grindfest if you're boring and don't know what else you can do.
The point was everything in the game is a grindfest, using that as a reason to not do something is flawed reasoning.


RMT have been abusing it for the same time, and more than legit players too. I've heard an interesting argument yesterday for why it may have been only now, maybe SE was ok with creating more money for the upcoming expansion, so more money is in circulation again for when new people sign up (or old people return). But I'm not sure if that's the case, because it feels like they've let it go a bit too far, especially with some certain individuals who were botting cruor 24/7 for months and can now buy the entire game if they wanted to.
Like I said based on my server the RMT were more than happy selling leech slots for exp, it wasn't until recently (1-3 months ago or so) that they started doing the alliance of mules instead of leechers.

In the past NPCables got nerfed because of RMT why would this be any different? SE still thinks that crap works when it didn't work with rusty armor, blood from leeches/bats, weapons from demons, etc.

As to the idea of SE wanting more gil in circulation, why at this stage of the game's life? I mean almost everything you can get that's worth wasting time on is Rare/Ex. The only major gil sink at the moment is Legion and few people are doing that meaning gil is just being passed around between the players.

[Kristal]

What do you reconmend then? What do you mean by 'invest'?

Edited to add: Even in EVE online you can make money off of PvE content. You can make an easy million blowing up belt pirates, thirty million an hour just completing level four missions (which can be done solo), several hundred million selling faction ships you buy with points you earn in missions. Hell you can practically mint your own money mining.

This has been an area that FFxi has always been weak in, that there aren't enough ways to make money for interested parties.

Except EVE isk is measured in billions, while FFXI gil is measured in millions. EVE is entirely player driven, where ship and pod kills are a brutal death tax that can set you back weeks or months. There is no annual hulkageddon in FFXI where thousands of players start murdering everyone in Jeuno and rob their moghouses, no freighterganking at Jita.
You might be able to mint your own pennies, but they get melted down just as fast. In FFXI, there is no overflow valve for gil.

[Aldersyde]

The point was everything in the game is a grindfest, using that as a reason to not do something is flawed reasoning.


Like I said based on my server the RMT were more than happy selling leech slots for exp, it wasn't until recently (1-3 months ago or so) that they started doing the alliance of mules instead of leechers.

In the past NPCables got nerfed because of RMT why would this be any different? SE still thinks that crap works when it didn't work with rusty armor, blood from leeches/bats, weapons from demons, etc.

As to the idea of SE wanting more gil in circulation, why at this stage of the game's life? I mean almost everything you can get that's worth wasting time on is Rare/Ex. The only major gil sink at the moment is Legion and few people are doing that meaning gil is just being passed around between the players.

Maybe SE should have taken a hard, critical, and honest look at why players aren't doing Legion (we've already given them lots of reasons why the event is unpopular....totally unforgiving deathga spamming nature nature and ho-hum rewards for the effort) and made adjustments that would make it more palatable to the wider playerbase. This would allow the event to act as a gil sink like it was supposed to, rather than relying on draconian measures like the complete devaluation of cruor which just piss people off and demoralize players. And Legion won't see a newfound popularity anytime soon with the difficulty players perceive in making gil again.

It's really just compounding failure after failure on SE' s part since Abyssea to make content that's actually fun and rewarding at this point.

[Zagen]

Maybe SE should have taken a hard, critical, and honest look at why players aren't doing Legion (we've already given them lots of reasons why the event is unpopular....totally unforgiving deathga spamming nature nature and ho-hum rewards for the effort) and made adjustments that would make it more palatable to the wider playerbase. This would allow the event to act as a gil sink like it was supposed to, rather than relying on draconian measures like the complete devaluation of cruor which just piss people off and demoralize players. And Legion won't see a newfound popularity anytime soon with the difficulty players perceive in making gil again.

It's really just compounding failure after failure on SE' s part since Abyssea to make content that's actually fun and rewarding at this point.
You mean how they are going to make it more appealing by lowering the monster's HP by 10% because they think Perfect Defense and Embrava are used because a monster lives too long and not because they could easily wipe alliances in 1-2 hits.

[Mirage]

Nah, they just want every melee to fulltime -50% DT, defender, vit and def gear. Haste, accuracy? Pfft. So what if you can't kill the mobs within the time limit.

[Sephoroth]

wow because it was all caps you take that as yelling lol if the message is too loud cover your ears or dont read it

Please learn to read the other posts please.

[Ezikiel]

please learn to skip posts you dont intend to add relevant information to.

[Iakothm]

please learn to skip posts you dont intend to add relevant information to.

Like what you just did?

[Ezikiel]

Like what you just did?

like what you just did

[JohnGotti]

Pair of muppets.

[Mirage]

people are being so angry in this thread
be happy instead, it's more fun

[Luvbunny]

Nah, they just want every melee to fulltime -50% DT, defender, vit and def gear. Haste, accuracy? Pfft. So what if you can't kill the mobs within the time limit.

To be honest, there are still several tricks that scholar, summoner, blue and bard can employ for damage mitigation. It won't be as AWESOME as the combo of Embrava + PD since the original duo tackle several things in one neat two swoops that last quite a bit. The new ways would have to combine a couple of jobs, put Scholar + Bard + Corsair on DD party. Can also mix Summoner + Scholar, or Summoner + Bard if you want 4 DDs. Or make a rotation party of some sort lol. For big endgame could still be doable, albeit a lot of coordination. For Nyzul may be a bit tougher to do with the embrava time being so short. Adloquium is certainly doable, and the tp regain +1 earring from WoTG for a basic 2 tp regain.

[Zagen]

Adloquium is certainly doable, and the tp regain +1 earring from WoTG for a basic 2 tp regain
Do good DD players still do Regain earrings over TP Bonus? I mean that's kinda like Suppanomimi and I wish I picked Suppanomimi.

[Mirage]

Yeah, the way I understand it, TP bonus is going to outperform regain in most situations. The regain on moonshade does only work while engaged, so it won't give you TP while running from one mob to the next. If it did, regain might have been a real alternative to TP bonus on it.

Personally, I'm going to put refresh on my moonshade anyway.

[Demon6324236]

Most go with TP Bonus + Attack as best for Moonshade, however... whats this talk of Suppa? Do you know something I don't Zag? O.o;

[Mirage]

I think that was just an example of picking a reward earring that you'd later most likely regret picking.

[Demon6324236]

Ah, I thought it was more of a "I wish I had Suppa, but I had to get this other thing instead" :x

[Mirage]

I think the idea was "i got something that wasn't a suppa because it sounded like a good idea at the time, and now i regret it".

[Demon6324236]

Yeah rereading it, it does.