TH Procing [Archive] - FINAL FANTASY XI Forum

Vold

10-17-2012, 01:58 PM

Does TH need to "proc" in order to have TH on a mob yes or no?No. We lived with no procs for like 8 or 9 years. There's no good reason why the basics would have changed with procs. If he really believes in what he believes in then challenge him to go out and farm any too weak mob like I know he's probably done time and again like all of us have. His drop rates will be in check of his TH level.

To put it another way, I am 100% certain I can go out to saru and farm crawlers and have the same ole drop rate I've always had with TH2+. I would even leave and come back with TH0 just for a comparison. Procs were created for I presume to extend your base TH on monsters to make THF more attractive to use over BST(pre nerf) or /thf jobs because TH3 trait sucks and they know it, not as the new method of applying TH.

AndytheRaven

10-17-2012, 02:04 PM

The log only shows increases. Initial TH is always on as long as the char with TH currently has hate on the NM.

P.s. By hate i mean any enmity, not the most. Any action, even missed ranged attacks put you on enmity list.

Hmm well that's going into slightly different territory, even I have been incline to think you need to at least land an attack, but of course never have test it nor am I interested in doing so lol

Kincard

10-17-2012, 02:27 PM

You need to have performed an action of the target. Simply being on the hate list/having enmity isn't enough (IE curing someone with hate will not tag TH).

Arcon

10-17-2012, 03:01 PM

You need to have performed an action of the target. Simply being on the hate list/having enmity isn't enough (IE curing someone with hate will not tag TH).

That is correct. And you don't even need to be on the hate list at all, if you die, for example, TH will remain on the mob.

And yes, as others said, you don't need to see a message to have TH. The message is just for upgrades. If you get a TH message "TH effectives reaches level 7" or whatever the exact message is, it means that TH6 was on before (unless it was the first hit, which is irrelevant for this discussion).

Fynlar

10-17-2012, 09:57 PM

Your friend is wrong. You can even do Cyclone/Diaga/whatever on a pack of mobs and it will tag them all with TH.

Mirage

10-17-2012, 11:43 PM

Ok so my friend and I are having a little argument about TH, as such I would like to ask the community opinion. Personal I think its a dumb question but here goes:

He says TH needs to proc as in show in the log the effectiveness in order to have any TH what so ever. I of course keep telling him even if its not on the log you still get what ever your gear has as well as pets, /thf don't get a log proc and yet clearly get it sooo.....

Does TH need to "proc" in order to have TH on a mob yes or no?

It does not. Additionally, if you want actual first-hand evidence, you can produce this by tagging a mob with TH5, for example, then have that character disengage, for so to bring a naked thf with just TH3 on it.

The first upgrade that TH3-thief will make will be from 5 to 6, even if he only had 3 initially. If the mob was never tagged with TH6 from the first thief because of no upgrade, the first upgrade from the TH3-thief would have been from 3 to 4.

Trisscar

10-18-2012, 01:47 AM

You need to have performed an action of the target. Simply being on the hate list/having enmity isn't enough (IE curing someone with hate will not tag TH).

I'm not exactly savvy on the TH aspects of Thief, so could you possibly explain this in more detail please?

Nawesemo

10-18-2012, 02:07 AM

I'm not exactly savvy on the TH aspects of Thief, so could you possibly explain this in more detail please?

Main, or sub job thf (or a thf item equiped) and engage the mob, I.e. do something to make the mob hit you, doesn't matter who kills after that point, the thfs lowest th is applied once an act is preformed on the mob. Jig, nin spell w/e.

Edit: An offensive action , after the thf applies th (treasure hunter)(hits the mob) and continues to beat on the mob messages "may" appear, xyz's treasure hunter on the mob increases to "next # in thfs th ability"... Bare bone thf @99 = th 3, .... So a bare thf hitting a mob will always have th 3 on the mob, add a thf knife th 4 min, add assassin armlet th 5, thf af3 +2 th 6.... Min. From the initial attack, it will increase... But never lower than the initial th applied. What th does.... Lol no one really knows what it does, some think it adds to % r/e items have to drop, others think it adds another roll to whether or not any item drops. S.e. never really said what it actually does. Imo not much difference between main thf, and /thf other than Eva,but meh, I like thf mains.

Nebo

10-18-2012, 06:33 AM

Hmm well that's going into slightly different territory, even I have been incline to think you need to at least land an attack, but of course never have test it nor am I interested in doing so lol

This is incorrect. Missed ranged attacks, missed hits etc will all apply TH. It's very easy to test if you are skeptical.

As a point of interest though, there may be some abilities that do not apply TH due to some interference with the effects that they apply.

Steps from /DNC for example seem to screw with TH application and will not apply TH if they are your first action on a mob.

There may be other cases of this, but I am not aware of any.

Arcon

10-18-2012, 06:38 AM

Steps from /DNC for example seem to screw with TH application and will not apply TH if they are your first action on a mob.

There may be other cases of this, but I am not aware of any.

Flourishes as well, as I am told. I haven't had a chance to confirm either yet. Provoke and Bully definitely do apply TH though.

Byrth

10-18-2012, 06:39 AM

Steps are also incapable of claiming monsters if it's the first action.

Nawesemo

10-18-2012, 06:45 AM

coool, lol I didn't know any of that. :) (last 3 posts, minus the applying thf on missed range etc.)

Dreamers

10-20-2012, 02:06 AM

A way to prove to your friend that you do not need to see the TH proc in the logs is to do VW. When you open the chest at the end of a VW battle, it shows your spectral allignment. It will also say something like "Your spectral allignment has been increased by x% across all spectrums", X being the TH that was applied to the mob if any TH was applied to the mob. If you have a 99thf wearing full TH gear (knife/hands+2/feet+2) tag the mob once and sit out the rest of the of the fight, everyone will see 7% in the message, and everyone in the pt will have that 7% added to all thier lights.

Camate

11-10-2012, 07:28 AM

Zagen

11-10-2012, 07:36 AM

Babekeke

11-10-2012, 07:53 AM

I don't know about everyone else but thieves I run with have always swapped out after the first hit and they have all TH+ gear THF gets. Sounds more like the devs don't want to change it because that requires work.

This exactly. Every good THF carries all of the TH+ gear (aside from the knife in a lot of cases), whether they just use it to tag the mob with initial high TH, or whether they full-time it for fraster procs. Removing the need to full time the gear would make for faster fights though as we can wear full DD gear instead after the initial proc.

Sargent

11-10-2012, 08:02 AM

Wouldn't matter if they made TH+ gear worth TPing in.

Cowardlybabooon

11-10-2012, 08:03 AM

I agree with the two above posters, and understand I guess if the dev team wants THFs to full time TH gear, but maybe consider adding some options in the same gear slots that currently have TH+ gear. People wouldn't mind if you made some gear that was nearly impossible to get that had TH+ as well as great melee stats. Since people could just wear the current options while they're working on the harder to obtain options. I think it would add some fun to THF and eliminate the need to decide between TH and damage. The current options are in fact extremely easy to obtain these days, so much that it took me 2 days of casual play to get them all when I decided to re-gear my thf a while back.

Nebo

11-10-2012, 08:43 AM

We would like to keep it as it is currently.

We would like you to change this.

-signed, every single THF in Vana'diel.

No THF wants to have to wear Treasure Hunter gear full-time to raise TH level.

Thief's knife is a LEVEL 70 DAGGER! Assassin's Armlets and Raider's Poulaines +2 are all very very very very weak equipment to melee in!

To your other point. All of these equipment are very easy to get. There is no "hard work" associated with obtaining Max TH equipment. It can all be done in less than a day....solo.

You must know by reading these boards how bad this problem is with several threads dedicated to this ver issue regarding Thief's knife and the lack of esire for us to melee in TH gear.

Is it really that you want THF to remain a weak job?

What happens when you inevitably add more +TH equipment. Do we just have to walk around with a body full of weak +TH gear?

This is a PRIME example of the HUGE disconnect between the developement team and the playerbase with regards to THF.

CHANGE THIS!

Vold

11-10-2012, 09:32 AM

Happy Friday everyone!

Sorry to intrude on this thread, but I wanted to share some information about Treasure Hunter.

This post might get a bit complicated since it is about Treasure Hunter, but that is the nature of the beast, as they say. Oh man this is gonna be popcorn worthy! BRB.

To shed some light of the background before I drop some knowledge bombs Oh geez brb for drink

there was a test performed by your fellow adventurers in Japan, and they noticed that after initially hitting the monster with maximum TH+ gear equipped and then switching to non-TH gear, the rate in which the TH value increased was reduced.

Now that you have the background… I AM READY WITH 'CORN AND DRINK IN HANDS

Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate. However, when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary. With that said, if you want to increase the Treasure Hunter value, it is best to utilize equipment that has the Treasure Hunter+ effect. By unequipping Treasure Hunter+ gear, you are essentially creating a gap between the value placed on the monster and your character, which results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value. .....um... ohhhhhh. Never again.

Anyways, I will ask Cam to remind the devs that I will agree with their stance as soon as they give us a new higher level dagger with TH, preferably a THF knife upgrade so I won't be tempted to wear two gimped knives. They do owe this to us at the very least now that we're lv99 and not 75 anymore. I'm not going to demand it but the devs know. They know darn well what the right thing to do here is. I don't have much of a problem with being given choices, and to sacrifice something for something else to better accomplish my goals. But I want justice in the matter. Something like 40 dmg or higher with a 176 delay since you know the entire reason of the level cap lift was being made more powerful for more powerful foes and all I don't think a 176 delay TH knife is suddenly going to cause the universe to explode. 100 delay might but not 176. Might lose a planet or two at most but those are acceptable losses imho.

Arcon

11-10-2012, 09:36 AM

I don't see this as a problem. TH at higher values is borderline useless, who cares if you have TH6 or TH10 on? I'm fine with it as it is. TH is the least of THF's problems. I'd rather they removed TH entirely and made THF worth having outside of it.

jerji

11-10-2012, 10:57 AM

but as there is a concern that this would reduce the value of equipment with Treasure Hunter+ and also takes away all the hard work some players have put into maximize their Treasure Hunter
You heard it here first: SE is more concerned about potentially reducing the value of your 200k Lv70 TH knife than your 200mil Mandau.

Maxing TH isn't something that's rare or requires hard work. It's an entry level requirement for any functioning THF.

Ophannus

11-10-2012, 11:05 AM

First you wrote:

Camate Wrote: Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate.

then you wrote

if you want to increase the Treasure Hunter value, it is best to utilize equipment that has the Treasure Hunter+ effect.

........wut

Catmato

11-10-2012, 11:48 AM

We would like you to change this.

-signed, every single THF in Vana'diel.

Signed.

123456789

Nala

11-10-2012, 11:58 AM

Zirael

11-10-2012, 12:03 PM

There have been requests to make it so that it's possible to switch out TH+ gear after the TH effect is placed on a monster, but as there is a concern that this would reduce the value of equipment with Treasure Hunter+ and also takes away all the hard work some players have put into maximize their Treasure Hunter, we would like to keep it as it is currently.
What a piece of nonsense.

http://static.ffxiah.com/images/icon/10695.png Asn. Armlets +2 (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/10695/)
90 [Hands] All Races
DEF:21 CHR+7 Accuracy+9 Evasion+9 Enmity+5 "Treasure Hunter"+2
LV 90 THF

http://static.ffxiah.com/images/icon/11149.png Raid. Poulaines +2 (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/11149/)
81 [Feet] All Races
DEF:23 AGI+15 Evasion+11 "Treasure Hunter"+1 Enhances "Despoil" effect Set: Augments "Triple Attack"
LV 81 THF

http://static.ffxiah.com/images/icon/16480.png Thief's Knife (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/16480/)
70 [Main] All Races
DPS: 866 DMG:28 Delay:194 "Treasure Hunter"+1
LV 70 THF

Not a single Haste, Attack, STR, DEX on this equipment. Thief's Knife Damage rating 2x lower than Mandau99. You're suggesting Thieves to full time all of this? In endgame? Go tell WARs SAMs MNKs DRGs NINs BLUs, pretty much everyone, to use a lv70 weapon and some junk armor with Haste -8 (losing Haste+4 on hands and feet) and see what they tell you.
Being forced from now on to full time this junk in Legion, Provenance, Odin v2, Meeble Burrows, Salvage and whatever other event you come up in the future and fall back in damage even further compared with other front line damage dealers is humiliating.
You're telling me to take pride in my TH+ equipment when at the same time it makes me a laughing stock of a damage dealer? What about all the hard work I have put into getting a decent damage+ off-hand dagger, hands and feet?!
You got it wrong.

ManaKing

11-10-2012, 01:50 PM

Please add some kind of incentive to THFs to continue to melee in TH gear. Make it increase Crit rate or something, if you are going to expect them to full time it.

Add a magian trial to theif's knife so you can at least make it lvl 90~ worthy. Attach it to a Coruscanti or an Asteria.

No one is jealous or envious of THFs. They have good evasion and the ability to add TH to things. How is that good enough, when TH isn't applicable in all situations?

Kitkat

11-10-2012, 02:25 PM

In current set up I sacrifice a whole 3% haste and 3% DA to wear two pieces of TH gear, which isn't bad. However, I refused to constantly swap in/out TH knife due to how bad the D rating is at lvl 99 let along keep it on full time. I also like how Camate states keeping TH gear on increases the proc rate based on JP player base testing, but doesn't cite his source nor reveal just how much of a difference it makes based on these findings.

SE does a wonderful job of using TH as a scapegoat to deny giving thf additional performance upgrades, but after seeing how certain content is constantly removing the desire for TH not to mention the "hate placing abilities" of thf due to a poorly dealt with enmity system (hey SE, there should be some jobs with an ability to have hate over the current cap, just saying!) I seriously doubt SE will ever give an upgrade to an outdated dagger let alone a new option with better damage rating. I mean, look at how well they have dealt with rdm! Everybody wants a Rdm, right guys?!? (/sarcasm) Thus my hope they will ever do anything to upgrade or add a better TH dagger is non-existent at this point.

Vivivivi

11-10-2012, 03:04 PM

This is great info to have confirmed, thank you Camate. Personally I am okay not swapping out relic+2 gloves and empyrean+2 feet as they are very good pieces anyway (sure i would prefer to swap in some pieces over them for weaponskills and such).

Any chance we'll see a new dagger with th+1, or a synergy recipe or magian trial for thief's knife though?

Arcon

11-10-2012, 04:04 PM

First you wrote:

then you wrote

........wut

I think it's a Japanese thing. This is technically correct wording, even if it confuses the hell out of some people. TH gear does not increase the upgrade chance directly, but it lessens the TH difference which indirectly increases it.

Any chance we'll see a new dagger with th+1, or a synergy recipe or magian trial for thief's knife though?

That wouldn't really help, as was said several times before. Then you'd still have to choose between using one TH dagger or two TH daggers, unless they did some shenanigans like making one only work if the other one isn't equipped. Also, it would still suck damage-wise, if they did something like this to block the effect of the original one, it should not be in a weapon slot, so you don't have to lose TP anymore.

Demon6324236

11-10-2012, 04:16 PM

So far as I knew you can not have 2 items that have a Rare tag on them with the same name, in which case the simple solution is to call the lv90~99 version, Thief's Knife.

Arcon

11-10-2012, 07:09 PM

So far as I knew you can not have 2 items that have a Rare tag on them with the same name, in which case the simple solution is to call the lv90~99 version, Thief's Knife.

That would basically be an augmented Thief's Knife (a different item with the same name is probably even impossible), which has also been suggested, but there is currently no way to upgrade weapons this way. SE would have to invent an entirely new system just for that Thief's Knife, although they could potentially include other items as well, but it's still unlikely to happen. There has been a lot of discussion on it here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13514-A-Simple-Request-from-Thieves-An-upgrade-to-Thief-s-Knife.).

I still say screw it, this is not on a list of worries at all. TH is a ridiculous argument for gameplay, in either direction. It's not something that should stand out in the first place, but a sidegrade to the job's other unique features, of which THF currently has close to none, and that's the real issue, not increasing the drop chance by a marginal amount.

Demon6324236

11-10-2012, 07:44 PM

Kincard

11-10-2012, 08:39 PM

........wut

This. You contradicted yourself in the same point, in two back-to-back sentences. I'm more inclined to believe that TH does increase the proc rate because of how the post is structured though.

Arcon

11-10-2012, 09:01 PM

Really imo the 3 unique things to a thief job has always been the ability to steal, the ability to increase drops, and the ability to sneak around. Those 3 things exist for THF, also they have good hate control tools within a party, the only problem is that hate is worthless.

Even if hate was relevant, their hate control is kinda terrible. Hate is extremely volatile and they can only take and deliver hate once a minute (at best), and only for one party member. This is entirely useless, even if hate management was something worth considering.

As for making a new system, I don't think that would be needed, probably just make a quest of some sort where you obtain a Thief's Knife that is level 90~99, and I think it would work because so far as I know items have basically an ID number.

And why would they make it for Thief's Knife only and for no other weapon? TH is just a single stat, and Thief's Knife just one random item, why should they get special treatment?

No item can have the same ID number, meaning they are still different items, kinda like how I assume Relics/Mythics/Emps work with having many leveled versions, all with the same name, but not actually augmented.

They are augmented, they just don't have any yellow font on them, which has always been optional. I don't know how it's handled internally though, hence why I said "probably", judging by the mess the rest of their code is in.

Regardless, that would still be a flaky solution. Unless they make it as powerful as comparable knives we'd still have to gimp our damage, and people would swap it out anyway. And once new daggers are released with the new expansion, it would fall behind again, so they'd have to keep upgrading it.

Putting that stat on a weapon in the first place was retarded, any future updates in that direction would be equally pointless for the same reasons.

Godofgods

11-10-2012, 09:18 PM

treasure hunter was added, they increased its value at 75. At cap increase, the TH value was increased again, now ppl complaining that they cant hit once and switch off TH gear. Ppl are greedy. (Guess it goes hand in hand with thief)

At least now i can /laugh at ppl that used to criticize me for staying in TH gear on mobs (when drop was needed)

Demon6324236

11-10-2012, 09:24 PM

The reason for doing it to Thief's Knife and nothing else is because no other job has had a weapon that is so important for a job that they would actually consider gimping their damage just to use it, even for only one hit. No other job has any weapon outside of Relic/Mythic/Emp that actually gets to be that high in use for any job, even PUPs got an Animator from the T3 Windy NM, but THFs are stuck with this wore down dagger with crap stats, it deserves upgrading for that exact reason. SE seems to make it sound as one of THF's main uses is TH, it is, if its so important to the job though, doesn't it make more sense for them to specifically better the options surrounding it? I agree putting TH on a wep was a stupid idea, but its done, and unless they do make a piece of gear that does not work in conjuncture with the knife, its use will always be there, and unless its upgraded, it will always suck.

Mirage

11-10-2012, 09:28 PM

Dear Developers.

No one likes to TP in their TH gear. In fact, I hate using my thief's knife, because its damage rating is so extremely low that the reduced kill speed from using it probably leads to fewer drops over time than if I had used a different weapon in my off-hand.

If you care about thieves and their thief knives at all, make a trial for it that keeps the name, but increases damage and level requirements. This way, we wouldn't be asked to equip the new thief's knife and offhand the old one, which would put us back in the same situation as before.

Alternatively, make a new TH dagger that only works if you aren't wearing "Thief's knife".

Arcon

11-10-2012, 09:37 PM

This. You contradicted yourself in the same point, in two back-to-back sentences. I'm more inclined to believe that TH does increase the proc rate because of how the post is structured though.

It's as the community already believed. The TH upgrade chance depends on the difference between your current TH level and the TH level that's on the mob. The lesser the gap, the higher the chance.

The reason for doing it to Thief's Knife and nothing else is because no other job has had a weapon that is so important for a job that they would actually consider gimping their damage just to use it, even for only one hit.

Neither does THF. Thief's Knife is borderline useless. It's like requesting to upgrade Inferno Axe, because no other Great Axe had additional fire damage, and if you want that you lose damage from not using an Ukonvasara. The problem is with thieves and the community who view TH7 vs. TH6 as something holy, when it's absolutely not. TH+1 is not essential to a TH6 THF, no matter which way you spin it, it's not even borderline important. Yet even the people who know how useless it is are worried about it, mostly due to historical reasons and frustration rather than proper reasoning. There is absolutely no problem to be solved here.

Mirage

11-10-2012, 09:39 PM

I actually think that over time, the extra hits from an offhand weapon with TA or QA would lead to enough extra TH upgrades for it to surpass the effect of the thief's knife, but I have no way to actually test this.

Just too bad I probably can't convince other players of this.

Arcon

11-10-2012, 10:13 PM

I actually think that over time, the extra hits from an offhand weapon with TA or QA would lead to enough extra TH upgrades for it to surpass the effect of the thief's knife, but I have no way to actually test this.

I'm pretty sure the TH upgrade chance is determined by round, not by swing.

Mirage

11-10-2012, 10:27 PM

Ok. Well, there's still the case of higher kill speed.

hiko

11-10-2012, 10:53 PM

imo it's not worth bothering, do people really care to have +5% TH proc rate on melee swing ? just equip TH gear (minus dagger) for 1st hit and SA-TA (higher TH+ proc)

And gimping your dmg is the good way to increase your TH lvl: if you hit it for low dmg you need to hit it more, and then you have more chance to proc TH and get a higher TH level!

now that you confirmed that TH proc rate was "static" for (curent TH lvl - TH equiped) could we get some values, by how much sneak, trick attack increase it, does sneak/trick bonus stack and how TH affect drop rate?

Kincard

11-10-2012, 11:18 PM

Frankly, even TH gear itself isn't all that useful given what the playerbase knows what happens to TH at TH lv3+. Meleeing in TH gear is dumb regardless of how much you want the drop, because even if you get an extra 5 levels of TH that's like a 1% increase in drop rate from everything we know.

And before you use the argument "that's still 1% more than it was before", just think about how much that actually is- you would need to fight the same monster 100 times before you'd average an extra drop from it. A 1% increase in say, HQ rates in crafting might be a big deal, but a 1% increase on a drop? Who cares, are you seriously going to fight that same NM that many times, and if you do, do you really need that extra drop by the time you've fought it 100 times?

TH gear is thrown on as a "might as well" kind of thing. Half the time it's not worth throwing on your Thief's Knife and all of the time its definately not worth wasting your time purposefully trying to upgrade TH by meleeing in the thing.

tyrantsyn

11-10-2012, 11:44 PM

Thank you Camate. This was very informative.

Yea most gear with TH on it isn't the most ideal stuff for melee. But it doesn't say you lose your TH if you swap out. It only said it decreases the proc value. Which on some mob's will not be a big deal.

Kincard

11-11-2012, 12:16 AM

it doesn't say you lose your TH if you swap ou

We didn't need them to tell us to know this, since people ugpraded from TH7 using no TH gear before several times anyway.

What would be a lot more useful is if they told us what exactly each level of TH after TH3 actually does, because from what everyone has seen the difference it makes isn't even worth mentioning.

Babekeke

11-11-2012, 05:22 AM

The only thing that I've found so far that you gain from getting higher TH rather than higher kill speed, are the NQ and HQ ground kings. Due to the fact that they're level 75 content, they die so fast that you don't need to have extra stats like str, att etc on them.

My personal gear set of choice on them (until TH12 procs) is main THF knife, no off-hand unless a shield (tatami), gear for 26% haste and TH7, no double/triple/quad attack gear since TH only procs on first swing of an attack round (also hence why no off-hand).

I never ws until TH12 procs at which point full DD it (no TH gear anymore). Though Aspid is the only one of the 6 mobs that is likely to have much HP left after TH12 has finally procced.

Most other stuff, it's better to just farm more pops for greater chance of drops, than to draw out the fight trying to proc TH.

tyrantsyn

11-11-2012, 05:34 AM

We didn't need them to tell us to know this, since people ugpraded from TH7 using no TH gear before several times anyway.

What would be a lot more useful is if they told us what exactly each level of TH after TH3 actually does, because from what everyone has seen the difference it makes isn't even worth mentioning.
It's the impression I got after reading threw the thread....

The other impression was that if we need to full time TH gear to get the better drops, why the hell is it that the Gear that has TH on it so lack luster on the melee stats. But that is a whole bag of worms I just don't even want to get into.

Lokithor

11-11-2012, 12:30 PM

This is such an incredible smouldering pile of bullshit it exceeds words. SE developers have just admitted that in their vision, the ONLY purpose for thf is to be a TH whore.

ManaKing

11-11-2012, 05:11 PM

They are augmented, they just don't have any yellow font on them, which has always been optional. I don't know how it's handled internally though, hence why I said "probably", judging by the mess the rest of their code is in.

Regardless, that would still be a flaky solution. Unless they make it as powerful as comparable knives we'd still have to gimp our damage, and people would swap it out anyway. And once new daggers are released with the new expansion, it would fall behind again, so they'd have to keep upgrading it.

Putting that stat on a weapon in the first place was retarded, any future updates in that direction would be equally pointless for the same reasons.

A flaky solution is still a solution. And solutions make for happier customers.

I don't disagree that it shouldn't have been put on a weapon either, but it was and there are stupid standards in this game that SE doesn't go out of their way to prevent from becoming issues.

Arcon

11-11-2012, 05:25 PM

A flaky solution is still a solution. And solutions make for happier customers.

That explains why everyone is so happy about SE's solution to Embrava/PD.

There are solutions that do not make people happy. I called it a flaky solution because it seems to cover the problem, but it really doesn't really connect all the pieces and it will fall apart again in the future. That is not a real solution in the first place.

The best I can say to this topic is the old saying:
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Babekeke

11-11-2012, 06:23 PM

I'm not entirely sure why everyone is so upset by this:

1. Camate didn't tell us anything that hasn't already been said in the THF forums by players.
2. SE aren't saying "if you want drops, you have to full-time TH gear", they're just saying you'll upgrade faster if you do.
3. TH4+ don't make much of a difference anyway.
4. THF can cap haste without hands and feet.

For some of you this is a kick in the nuts because now you have to full-time TH gear. For me this didn't change anything. TH for pulling macro (and evasion macro) and then DD in TH3.

Byrth

11-11-2012, 11:44 PM

I have two different TP modes depending on what I want the tradeoff between drop rate and killspeed to be. If I don't want to use TK, I keep it in my sack. I'm capable of duoing Salvage with or without it, so the question is whether or not it increases my gil/hr. It probably doesn't, but if higher levels of TH don't increase my damage then why am I on Thief? I can go DNC/THF with TH2 and clear SSR in an hour.

So now that's what I do. I'd say it loses me about 5 Alexandrite singles per run. I haven't gotten any Linens since I started doing it, but that could just be bad luck.

Fynlar

11-12-2012, 06:11 AM

Considering how often I've killed Salvage bosses with a THF and still not gotten jack anyway, I'm more inclined to believe bad luck

ManaKing

11-12-2012, 11:17 AM

That explains why everyone is so happy about SE's solution to Embrava/PD.

There are solutions that do not make people happy. I called it a flaky solution because it seems to cover the problem, but it really doesn't really connect all the pieces and it will fall apart again in the future. That is not a real solution in the first place.

The best I can say to this topic is the old saying:
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

I'm perfectly happy with Embrava/PD being finally addressed.

We are at lvl 99. A fix at this point wouldn't really fall apart since we aren't going past 99.

Arcon

11-12-2012, 05:28 PM

I'm perfectly happy with Embrava/PD being finally addressed.

Regardless, you can't say the same about the community or SE's customers in general, seeing how almost everyone you seems to rage about it. That's not satisfying their customers.

We are at lvl 99. A fix at this point wouldn't really fall apart since we aren't going past 99.

This has nothing to do with levels. New gear will always be pushed out until the game dies, and when it does, the new knife will fall behind again.

ManaKing

11-13-2012, 04:17 AM

Regardless, you can't say the same about the community or SE's customers in general, seeing how almost everyone you seems to rage about it. That's not satisfying their customers.

Everyone on the forums that is against it is vocal. The people who are for it, generally only say it once or twice and then move on because it's no longer an issue to them. Plenty of people are going to be happy to get rid of PD/Embrava since it's already old, boring, and is the blanket strategy for anything that people don't want to take the time to figure out themselves.

Zagen

11-13-2012, 04:37 AM

Everyone on the forums that is against it is vocal. The people who are for it, generally only say it once or twice and then move on because it's no longer an issue to them. Plenty of people are going to be happy to get rid of PD/Embrava since it's already old, boring, and is the blanket strategy for anything that people don't want to take the time to figure out themselves.
It's the strategy not because people don't want to take time to figure out other options but because SE in their infinite wisdom thought "monsters that 1-2 shot players" and "an event where so much luck is involved that speed is a major win/lose factor" were good idea. Look at the uses of Perfect Defense and/or Embrava outside of Legion, ADL, NNI. While pretty powerful they aren't used as the go to strategies because other options are available.

As to TH if the gear that had TH+ on it was good then it wouldn't be an issue. But the gear sucks and it's clear with the way TH works SE doesn't want THF to be a DD, just a TH whore and Enmity specialist, both of which it pretty much sucks at because of how both systems work.

Riggs

11-13-2012, 04:49 AM

every since the 99 level increase thf have got screwed by se. Just as a start all daggers level 90+ should get an increase of +10 to base damage to help get the damage level back to level 75 era and thats just for a start.

As for thf6 , 7 or 8 all i know that in dynamis my bst friend with thf3 gets as many drops as i do with thf8 and he kills in a fraction of the time

Arcon

11-13-2012, 07:27 AM

Everyone on the forums that is against it is vocal. The people who are for it, generally only say it once or twice and then move on because it's no longer an issue to them.

Name one person (other than yourself) who was for it.

Plenty of people are going to be happy to get rid of PD/Embrava since it's already old, boring, and is the blanket strategy for anything that people don't want to take the time to figure out themselves.

Entirely not the point and completely unfounded assumption. Everyone knows Embrava and PD were overpowered. But SE's solution to it was bad, so it made people unhappy. They nerfed them without adjusting the content, which upset everyone because it will make it nearly impossible to clear in a reliable form. There is currently no indication at all that "people are going to be happy" about this. Case in point, solutions can go wrong as well. SE needs to time thinking about what they do before doing it. Just doing something without regard for what's good and what isn't will help no one in the end.

Although all of this seems to be more and more off-topic, as I still don't consider this a problem worth solving.

Fynlar

11-13-2012, 07:32 AM

Everyone knows Embrava and PD were overpowered. But SE's solution to it was bad, so it made people unhappy. They nerfed them without adjusting the content, which upset everyone because it will make it nearly impossible to clear in a reliable form.

But they are lowering the HP of Legion mobs by 10%, omg! That'll totally fix things!

ManaKing

11-14-2012, 05:37 AM

Entirely not the point and completely unfounded assumption. Everyone knows Embrava and PD were overpowered. But SE's solution to it was bad, so it made people unhappy. They nerfed them without adjusting the content, which upset everyone because it will make it nearly impossible to clear in a reliable form. There is currently no indication at all that "people are going to be happy" about this. Case in point, solutions can go wrong as well. SE needs to time thinking about what they do before doing it. Just doing something without regard for what's good and what isn't will help no one in the end.

Although all of this seems to be more and more off-topic, as I still don't consider this a problem worth solving.

I'm more than willing to give a new dev team the ability to try to actually do their job first before telling them that they don't know what they are doing. FFXI isn't dead and the management has changed. If they want to address the issues of a boring end game, then let them. I'd much rather they try something that they think will work than do nothing and let all of the glaring issues continue to be un-addressed because they are a lot of work to fix.

Either way, I see what the current team is trying to do as giving us more options and new ways to play. They are offering diversity and I have no interest in spitting in their face for trying to give us more instead of less.

Name one person (other than yourself) who was for it.
I'm not going to waste my time linking people's responses so you can continue to try to refute completely off topic points. People made posts that were for what they are doing. If you've read most of the topics on Embrava/PD, then you just weren't paying attention or you decided that people who had those opinions weren't worth remembering.

If you want to talk about THFs current state with TH and the hang ups that exist which makes THF an undesirable job to be played by some, then we can continue. Otherwise, I continue to support NON-2H DPS jobs that actually wanted more role diversity so that people could have interesting experiences while playing video games with other people. People should be rewarded for bringing something other than a Ragnarok DRK or WAR.

A THF being more than a TH whore to a system of TH that doesn't truthfully reward them is complete bull shit. It makes people who want to actually play THF angry and unfulfilled. You will always be able to find someone willing to play a THF to proc TH, since that is all they need to do, but that person will go back to playing something fun or rewarding after they are done doing their inconveniencing work as a THF.

Gwydion

12-15-2023, 02:32 AM

Happy Friday everyone!

Sorry to intrude on this thread, but I wanted to share some information about Treasure Hunter.

This post might get a bit complicated since it is about Treasure Hunter, but that is the nature of the beast, as they say.

To shed some light of the background before I drop some knowledge bombs, there was a test performed by your fellow adventurers in Japan, and they noticed that after initially hitting the monster with maximum TH+ gear equipped and then switching to non-TH gear, the rate in which the TH value increased was reduced.

Now that you have the background…

Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate. However, when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary. With that said, if you want to increase the Treasure Hunter value, it is best to utilize equipment that has the Treasure Hunter+ effect. By unequipping Treasure Hunter+ gear, you are essentially creating a gap between the value placed on the monster and your character, which results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value.

There have been requests to make it so that it's possible to switch out TH+ gear after the TH effect is placed on a monster, but as there is a concern that this would reduce the value of equipment with Treasure Hunter+ and also takes away all the hard work some players have put into maximize their Treasure Hunter, we would like to keep it as it is currently.

There is a debate on FFXIAH right now, about TH proc'ing and this post is being referenced a few times. We are arguing about how to properly play the Thief job so that we can employ increases to the rate at which TH is proc'ing. Some questions:

1.) Does critical hit rate probably an increased opportunity for TH procs, when compared to normal auto-attacks?
2.) For each TH proc that occurs, will increasing the amount of TH in gear by 1 improve the chance of the next TH-proc to occur?
3.) Expanding on question #2: If I increase my TH in gear by 1 for every TH proc, I am maintaining the "gap" you describe above, so let's say: If I wear TH+5 and proc TH9, then I increase my gear to TH6: Can you tell us what improvement to the probability of TH10 proc occurs here? If the answer is none, we can stay in TH5 gear throughout the fight. If the answer is a very small probability increase, such as from 1% to 1.1% chance of that TH10 proc occurring, I think we deserve to know so we can play and swap gear accordingly.

Please note:
Your answers to these 3 questions will tell us: (1) Should THFs wear critical hit gear to increase TH procs? (2) Should we increase our TH+ amount in gear for every subsequent TH proc that occurs? (As you can see, this clearly effects playstyle and how we will swap gear when aiming for certain items).

Please help us play Thief effectively so we can bring the most to our parties and group content! Your help is greatly appreciated! Thank you.

Alhanelem

12-15-2023, 09:16 AM

Gwydion

12-15-2023, 12:08 PM

1) is very testable, it doesn't need a response. Casually though, I don't see any evidence that this happens or see any reason why it would.
2) No. We already know what TH+ does. This is also testable but I don't see that it's necessary, I've never heard anyone say this before and it's most likely either just anecdotal eyeballing or a complete fabrication

Again, you can test all of this, but no claim has ever been made that TH+ on gear modifies the chances of anything happening; it only modifies the TH level on the target, and unless/until someone proves otherwise (like i said, the chance of anything is completely testable) it should be assumed that no change in chances for anything (other than the drop rate chance provided by TH application) occurs.

We also haven't gotten any internal responses to anything in a very, long time, so I wouldn't hold your breath. Sorry to be a debbie downer. But, like I said, you can very much test this yourself, just keep track of how many TH effects you apply and whether they were applied alongside a critical. You just need a large enough sample size.

If it helps, based on this earlier official comment on TH:

I would lean towards there being nothing modifying the rate at which you can apply TH procs.

I don't think you're considering the scope of my questions or at least how TH proc modifiers can possibly fluctuate.

1.) This application of critical hit rate as a modifier for TH proc rate does not have to be constant and could vary from each subsequent TH level that is proc'ed. For example, SE could come back and tell us that Critical hit Rate has 10% higher chance of causing a TH proc from 8 to 9, a 9% higher chance to cause a TH proc from 9 to 10 ....and so on, and so forth. This is why it makes it very difficult to test. (We would have a set of samples for multiple independent TH procs).

2.) For the same reason as #1, AND the description using a metric that is controllable by the player: "gap in TH level between player and monster" ...means that further elaboration from SE is necessary. If I proc TH, am I supposed to increase my gear by TH+1 further?

Our testing would not yield the correct value if the likelihood of a TH proc varies for either of the situations described above. (Keep in mind, it is very easy for to create these non-linear modifiers in code, just a few lines or a single lookup table).

Once again, I'm hoping SE gives us some guidance on the proper way to play THF when aiming for TH procs as quickly as possible, by answering the questions above.

Alhanelem

12-15-2023, 12:58 PM

1.) This application of critical hit rate as a modifier for TH proc rate does not have to be constant and could vary from each subsequent TH level that is proc'ed. For example, SE could come back and tell us that Critical hit Rate has 10% higher chance of causing a TH proc from 8 to 9, a 9% higher chance to cause a TH proc from 9 to 10 ....and so on, and so forth. This is why it makes it very difficult to test. (We would have a set of samples for multiple independent TH procs).You are really overthinking this. There's no reason to do something like this, other than just having complexity for the sake of complexity. And while SE did have a tendency to make complex mechanics in this game, they always had a purpose. Throwing secret secondary modifiers like you're suggesting in there would serve no purpose other than to make it harder for players to discover them- and if they deliberately did this, I don't think they would tell you how it works for obvious reasons.

This game's playerbase has a bad habit of assuming things are more complex than they really are, just because there are some things in the game that are needlessly complex. It's true that some things are, but that doesn't mean everything is. I think in this case it's just because TH was shrouded in secrecy for a very, very long time.

SE generally does NOT give guidance on how to play the game beyond the basics. It has always been up to the players to figure these things out. They only tend to come out of the wood work when complaints about something reach epic porportions at which point they sometimes discuss what is causing players "consternation" (a word most of us probably never heard or used before they did, lol).

And while I think you'll be wasting your time and disappointed with the results, as I said, everything you're asking about can easily be tested, so given that it can be figured out by the playerbase (unlike the inner workings of Treasure Hunter and the drop system itself), they are more than likely just going to leave you to figure it out. Which, if it really concerns you that much, I'd strongly advise you to do.

Our testing would not yield the correct value if the likelihood of a TH proc varies for either of the situations described above. (Keep in mind, it is very easy for to create these non-linear modifiers in code, just a few lines or a single lookup table). Testing would easily enable you to determine if such obtuse mechanics exist, because, straight as you said, you would get unexpected results. Which is all the more reason you should test for this, instead of just giving excuses not to do so. You are, once again, assuming secret complexity without any real basis.

I'm not writing this post to be a jerk or to shut you down or anything like that. I'm just trying to get you to realize it isn't really hard to evaluate this yourself, and that I think you're falling down a complexity rabbit hole, assuming that it must be complex when it may very well not be. That aside from the fact that there really isn't anything in the game to suggest to us that the rate at which procs occur can be modified by anything- any variance is almost certainly just player eyeballing introducing inaccuracy.

And finally... they're not going to respond to this. It isn't a dire issue impacting the entire playerbase like the Sortie boss issue, which is, to my recollection, the last gameplay element they've interacted with us on outside of update notes/freshly picked. Keep wishing if you'd like, but I'd keep your expectations very low if I were you, and use the time to test it.

Gwydion

12-15-2023, 05:49 PM

Sp1cyryan

12-16-2023, 12:10 AM

I'm not going to read all that. You opinion was clear, unhelpful and unnecessary in your first post. Everything after that is a waste.

Let's hope SE sheds light on this issue so we can play THF correctly for increased TH proc rates.

I'm not going to read all that. You opinion was clear, unhelpful and unnecessary in your first post. Everything after that is a waste.

Alhanelem

12-16-2023, 12:00 PM

I'm not going to read all that. Well, that's your first problem. You should read it, and you should test your hypothesis.

I approached you on this topic in good faith. But if you're going to be dismissive and condecending, we can go back to the way things were where I disagree with you and you rant about how terrible I am instead of anything meaningful happening.

You are not going to get an official response (I guarantee it), so I gave you the information you needed too find out the answer yourself. If you want to keep hoping, by all means, but I"m being realistic. You are overthinking something that most likely is not as complex as you are suggesting, and you're implying another Treasure Hunter conspiracy that most likely does not exist.

I do not believe there is any hidden modifier (or even a random factor) to the rate at which TH procs apply. There is no research or evidence out there to suggest that this is the case, so if you think that it is, the burden is on you to find that out, because SE is most definitely not going to tell you. That's just the reality of the situation.

You want answers, but even though you have the ability to find the answers yourself, you're not willing to put in the work to do it.

Gwydion

12-16-2023, 12:42 PM

Well, that's your first problem. You should read it, and you should test your hypothesis.

I approached you on this topic in good faith. But if you're going to be dismissive and condecending, we can go back to the way things were where I disagree with you and you rant about how terrible I am instead of anything meaningful happening.

You are not going to get an official response (I guarantee it), so I gave you the information you needed too find out the answer yourself. If you want to keep hoping, by all means, but I"m being realistic. You are overthinking something that most likely is not as complex as you are suggesting, and you're implying another Treasure Hunter conspiracy that most likely does not exist.

I do not believe there is any hidden modifier (or even a random factor) to the rate at which TH procs apply. There is no research or evidence out there to suggest that this is the case, so if you think that it is, the burden is on you to find that out, because SE is most definitely not going to tell you. That's just the reality of the situation.

You want answers, but even though you have the ability to find the answers yourself, you're not willing to put in the work to do it.

If the modifiers in question cause a non-linear change in TH proc rate, then the test you are suggesting is a complete waste of time. It's not "complex", it's a common practice to select multiple distribution tables in MMO games, so you're suggesting a testing method that has a high likelihood to be a waste of time.

I've waited 10 years for SE to answer this question, so I'll just keep waiting.

Alhanelem

12-16-2023, 01:42 PM

If the modifiers in question cause a non-linear change in TH proc rate, then the test you are suggesting is a complete waste of time.If you have any understanding about how math works, you would know that whether or not the relationship is non-linear, there is a relationship and that relationship can be tested. You are simply refusing to do work that, at worst, would give you a reasonable approximation if not the exact answer.

It's a big "if" in the first place, but even if your conclusion isn't accurate, it is not a "complete waste of time." The very worst thing that can happen is you find that the data you collected isn't useful which would prove your "what if" is the case. This would save anyone else the time spent testing it and would also point future people exploring this in the right direction. Testing things is NEVER a waste of time.

If I had any reason to believe that there is some super secret hidden complexity to how procs work, I would test for it. But I have no reason to do so because neither you nor anyone else has brought forth any evidence to suggest that this might be the case. All you have is a theory that's based on nothing but an argument you had with someone.

I can't tell you what to do with your time. I'm merely suggesting you actually do something about your alleged problem rather than wait for an answer that will never come, as you by your own admission claim to have been waiting a decade, and you will likely go to your grave not having the answer to this incredibly trivial issue of how to optimize proc rate. You will probably get all the drops you're optimizing for in the time it takes you to get an answer without testing. But hey, you do you. I'd love to help you find the answer, but you have to want to find it. And I mean that, if you want to explore it, I will be supportive of that. But you have to stop dismissing me out of hand.

Dragoy

12-16-2023, 07:32 PM

If it helps, based on this earlier official comment on TH:

I would lean towards there being nothing modifying the rate at which you can apply TH procs.

They also wrote:

"However, when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary. With that said, if you want to increase the Treasure Hunter value, it is best to utilize equipment that has the Treasure Hunter+ effect. By unequipping Treasure Hunter+ gear, you are essentially creating a gap between the value placed on the monster and your character, which results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value."

Maybe I'm missing something, but does this not pretty clearly mean that yes, the chance for triggering the value going up is affected by the difference between your treasure hunter level, and the one currently on the enemy?

It's also how it always felt to me in practice. For example, if the monster is currently at treasure hunter at level 4, and I go at it with 8, leveling it up will likely trigger much faster than it would when staying at 4.

Testing just how big of a difference there would be between 4 and 5 versus 4 and 8 would probably take a silly amount of time, and I'd definitely rather go for 8 in any case, but that's me. ^^

As for the critical question, I don't think that one has an effect on this, but I would not be surprised if it did...

Edit:

I guess I was a bit more sleepy than usual when previously writing here... the examples in particular, since of course the level would be set right away as high as 8 at most, instead of being triggered as an additional effect, so they don't quite work... heh.

Alhanelem

12-16-2023, 08:03 PM

Maybe I'm missing something, but does this not pretty clearly mean that yes, the chance for triggering the value going up is affected by the difference between your treasure hunter level, and the one currently on the enemy?This does indicate that there is a modifier involved, but it has nothing to do with any combat attributes.

While I'll be the first to agree that SE rarely takes the most logical path on anything, there just isn't any evidence to support combat stats influencing the rate of triggering TH procs.

As I explained and got brushed aside on, if crit modifies success rate in any way, it would be easily testable. Even if there is some fancy non-linear modifier which Gwydion is using to excuse himself from attempting to test this, if crits did anything at all for TH procing, there would be some difference between having a lot of crit and having very little. Even if he couldn't get precise results due to some super secret variable, there is still value in testing it (if we want to assume any such crit mod exists) You would require a large sample size... but all the more reason to start tracking it if it's something one cares about.

Dihlyte

12-17-2023, 07:42 AM

They also wrote:

"However, when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary. With that said, if you want to increase the Treasure Hunter value, it is best to utilize equipment that has the Treasure Hunter+ effect. By unequipping Treasure Hunter+ gear, you are essentially creating a gap between the value placed on the monster and your character, which results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value."

Maybe I'm missing something, but does this not pretty clearly mean that yes, the chance for triggering the value going up is affected by the difference between your treasure hunter level, and the one currently on the enemy?

It's also how it always felt to me in practice. For example, if the monster is currently at treasure hunter at level 4, and I go at it with 8, leveling it up will likely trigger much faster than it would when staying at 4.

Testing just how big of a difference there would be between 4 and 5 versus 4 and 8 would probably take a silly amount of time, and I'd definitely rather go for 8 in any case, but that's me. ^^

As for the critical question, I don't think that one has an effect on this, but I would not be surprised if it did...

It is very clearly stated by Square-Enix, that having a higher value of TH+ equipment increases the chance to raise the TH value.

Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate. However, when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary. With that said, if you want to increase the Treasure Hunter value, it is best to utilize equipment that has the Treasure Hunter+ effect. By unequipping Treasure Hunter+ gear, you are essentially creating a gap between the value placed on the monster and your character, which results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value.

there is a concern that this would reduce the value of equipment with Treasure Hunter+ and also takes away all the hard work some players have put into maximize their Treasure Hunter, we would like to keep it as it is currently.

Or more simply put:

Mob TH Value = 10
THF TH value =9

Let's say the default TH proc rate is 15%
Now let's say TH Proc rate in this 10 to 9 ratio is 10%

So if you have TH+ Equipment Value of 14 then you will gain benefit of the full 15% chance to proc all the way until you reach 14. (The max proc value.)

If you have TH value total of 8 on a THF, you will have a **reduced** chance to proc above TH 8.

It is very clearly stated by SE themselves, that this is the case.

More TH will not increase the default "15%" chance, but having less than 14 will **lower** your chances to proc higher than your current value against the mob.

It is not complicated.

Alhanelem

12-17-2023, 08:46 AM

It is very clearly stated by Square-Enix, that having a higher value of TH+ equipment increases the chance to raise the TH value.

Or more simply put:

Mob TH Value = 10
THF TH value =9

Let's say the default TH proc rate is 15%
Now let's say TH Proc rate in this 10 to 9 ratio is 10%

So if you have TH+ Equipment Value of 14 then you will gain benefit of the full 15% chance to proc all the way until you reach 14. (The max proc value.)

If you have TH value total of 8 on a THF, you will have a **reduced** chance to proc above TH 8.

It is very clearly stated by SE themselves, that this is the case.

More TH will not increase the default "15%" chance, but having less than 14 will **lower** your chances to proc higher than your current value against the mob.

It is not complicated.

For Gwydion, note this part:

Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate.
Based on what Camate posted, the maximum TH proc rate is not influenced by anything: "This is a set rate."
This essentially says there is nothing else, like crit or anything, that modifies the rate. And even then the rate only changes if your TH+ isn't high enough.

You basically have your answer, and it's from an official source.

Catmato

12-17-2023, 07:11 PM

This has always sounded like conflicting information.

Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate. However, when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary. With that said, if you want to increase the Treasure Hunter value, it is best to utilize equipment that has the Treasure Hunter+ effect. By unequipping Treasure Hunter+ gear, you are essentially creating a gap between the value placed on the monster and your character, which results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value.

Adding TH+ does not increase the rate, but removing TH+ decreases the rate?

Alhanelem

12-18-2023, 05:19 AM

This has always sounded like conflicting information.

Adding TH+ does not increase the rate, but removing TH+ decreases the rate?
I think it's just poorly worded. There is no variance in the rate as long as your TH+ total is higher than the current TH level on the target. That's what they mean when they say adding more won't increase the rate.

If you don't have the maximum possible TH value, the rate of increase will be the same from zero up to the highest level you have, and then it will decrease. It doesn't matter if you have TH+3 or TH+5, until the TH value reaches those numbers.

Catmato

12-18-2023, 09:02 AM

I think it's just poorly worded. There is no variance in the rate as long as your TH+ total is higher than the current TH level on the target. That's what they mean when they say adding more won't increase the rate.

If you don't have the maximum possible TH value, the rate of increase will be the same from zero up to the highest level you have, and then it will decrease. It doesn't matter if you have TH+3 or TH+5, until the TH value reaches those numbers.

I still don't understand. As soon as you touch the enemy with whatever TH+ you have equipped, that's the TH level that's on the target until it upgrades. There's no way to be attacking with TH+5 while an enemy has anything less than TH+5 on it.

Alhanelem

12-18-2023, 10:59 AM

There's no way to be attacking with TH+5 while an enemy has anything less than TH+5 on it. Different characters with different TH levels.

Dihlyte

12-19-2023, 12:28 AM

Simply put:

Using anything less than a total of TH14 total lowers your chance to proc from 13-14.

Using anything more than TH14 is not going to increase the chance to proc higher or faster to reach 14.

The above is clearly stated by the developer.

The following, can be assumed, that critical hits do not affect Treasure Hunter rate procs.

Dihlyte

12-19-2023, 12:38 AM

Furthermore:

Applying TH 8 then removing your TH gear, will lower your chances to proc to 9.

Applying TH 8 while using TH 8 total will reduce your chances to proc to 9.

Applying TH 8 while using TH 9+ total will maximize your chances to proc to 9. (Anything less will lower your chance, anything more will not increase your chance.)

Procing to TH9 then using TH9 total will reduce your chances to proc to 10.

Procing to TH9 while using TH10+ total will maximize your chances to proc to 10.

So on so forth.

This is clearly stated by the developer.

So if we are to make a random assumption, it can be determined:

TH8 when using TH8/9 total is 100 chance to be applied.
Procing from TH8 to TH 9 while using TH9 equipment grants access to the maximum "set rate" value of let's say 25%.
Procing from TH8 to TH9 while using TH8 or lower total reduces your chances to proc to TH9 from 25% to any value less than 25%, such as 20% in TH8, 18% in TH7 etc.

Or simply:

TH8 (Mob) TH9 (player) 25% chance. (The maximum set rate)
TH8 (Mob) TH8 (Player) 20% chance. (An example of the reduced rate)
TH8 (Mob) TH17 (Player 25% chance. (An example of utilizing additional equipment)

(The above values are simply for representation purposes, and do not reflect actual values in-game.)

Gwydion

12-19-2023, 05:04 AM

Dihlyte

12-19-2023, 05:08 AM

Combining everyone's input and converting Camate's words with sample data, I've constructed the following tables that I believe illustrate his point.

Assumptions:
Base TH Proc Rate is X. (Yellow) Base TH Proc Rate never for a positive TH difference between player and monster. Base TH Proc Rate shrinks when TH difference between player and mob is negative.

Questions for SE that will help us players remain current in 2023:
Does critical hit rate increase base TH proc rate or subsequent TH proc rates? Does the subsequent TH proc rate shrink when TH difference is negative?
If so, by what amount? In my example, I've assumed a 10% decrease or decay rate, just for illustration purposes.)
Are personal drop loot (such as Peaches battle, macrocosmic orb campaign, etc). subjected to TH procs as described by Camate and illustrated below? (Can the base TH rate and decay rate differ between different content?)

Thank you for so much in advance, even for just reading.
https://i.imgur.com/0z5iy85.png

To my understanding of what is clearly stated by the FFXI developer, you have completely nailed this chart.

Thank you for your effort in creating it!

It looks correct and perfect. Great work!

I do not think critical hit rates affect the rate at which you can proc, per what is stated by the dev response.

Gwydion

12-19-2023, 05:11 AM

Thank you so much for the compliment! Let's hope we get some confirmation from SE! I'm always here and happy to help other FFXI players. :)

Urioh

12-19-2023, 06:01 AM

You basically got it right. unfortunately there is less than 0% chance they confirm or answer anything.

Catmato

12-19-2023, 09:17 PM

What happened to TH+ from gear and traits capping at 8? Are you implying that 8 is only the max initial application and gear beyond +8 actually does increase the proc rate?

Urioh

12-19-2023, 11:52 PM

The first tag is capped at 8, the rate doesn't seem to be

Alhanelem

12-20-2023, 04:21 PM

Does critical hit rate increase base TH proc rate or subsequent TH proc rates?Camate answered this and we quoted it already. Please, stop trying to imagine modifiers that don't exist unless you can provide evidence that they do exist. The dev response indriectly stated the only thing that modifies TH proc chance is not having enough TH.

Even the chart that you created, which doesn't include this as a factor, basically illustrates that. (Very useful chart btw)

As I said before, I'll be the first to agree with you that SE often has... unconventional methods for doing things, but if the devs say "this is how it works" its reasonable to assume that's how it works, unless evidence to the contrary is presented.

Gwydion

12-21-2023, 12:14 AM

Camate answered this and we quoted it already. Please, stop trying to imagine modifiers that don't exist unless you can provide evidence that they do exist. The dev response indriectly stated the only thing that modifies TH proc chance is not having enough TH.

Even the chart that you created, which doesn't include this as a factor, basically illustrates that. (Very useful chart btw)

As I said before, I'll be the first to agree with you that SE often has... unconventional methods for doing things, but if the devs say "this is how it works" its reasonable to assume that's how it works, unless evidence to the contrary is presented.

Your assertion about the Base TH Rate X is correct. However, I keep explaining your misunderstanding and it's not getting through. We know the Base TH rate X decays, but we do not know if it is linear, constant or otherwise modifiable or preventable. (It was also suggested on FFXIAH that TH procs occur on the mainhand only, but may occur on offhand double attacks or offhand critical hits (either by accident/bug or on purpose)

Alhanelem

12-21-2023, 11:29 AM

We know the Base TH rate X decays, but we do not know if it is linear, constant or otherwise modifiable or preventable.Sure, but what's that got to do with critical hits? Nothing. It's just a theory someone threw out there. You need to test for it. Even if it's not linear, you should be able to prove its existence.

SuperiorVegetable

12-21-2023, 11:35 AM

Sure, but what's that got to do with critical hits? Nothing. It's just a theory someone threw out there. You need to test for it. Even if it's not linear, you should be able to prove its existence.

He keeps trying to explain to you that it would be extremely time-consuming, nearly impossible, to test the rate of the decay for TH without understanding which variables need to be isolated. Until you understand this, you are wasting everyone's time with your incessantly empty replies.

Alhanelem

12-21-2023, 11:47 AM

He keeps trying to explain to you that it would be extremely time-consuming, nearly impossible,We're not talking about rate of decay here. We're talking about whether or not crit rate affects TH procs. Read Gwydion's original post:

1.) Does critical hit rate probably an increased opportunity for TH procs, when compared to normal auto-attacks?
2.) For each TH proc that occurs, will increasing the amount of TH in gear by 1 improve the chance of the next TH-proc to occur?
3.) Expanding on question #2: If I increase my TH in gear by 1 for every TH proc, I am maintaining the "gap" you describe above, so let's say: If I wear TH+5 and proc TH9, then I increase my gear to TH6: Can you tell us what improvement to the probability of TH10 proc occurs here? If the answer is none, we can stay in TH5 gear throughout the fight. If the answer is a very small probability increase, such as from 1% to 1.1% chance of that TH10 proc occurring, I think we deserve to know so we can play and swap gear accordingly.

Where is decay mentioned here?
Also, you say it would be time consuming to test. Any good sample size would be (though it would go faster if people worked together). But you know, sooner you start, sooner you finish. If it's really that important to you, you'd do what it takes to find out, I would think.

Until you understand this, you are wasting everyone's time with your incessantly empty replies. Sir, it is you who doesn't understand, and I am as entitled to partcipate in this discussion as you are and will not be suppressed. Do us all a favor too: Please don't represent anyone other than yourself. I'm speaking to Gwydion, and if he wants to he can respond, but you can not act on his behalf.

What I admittedly *don't* understand is why this is even being debated in the first place. How does this information help anyone? Let's just pretend crits are confirmed to affect TH procs, even though Camate basically already said nothing other than TH affected TH procs. What does this do for you? I don't see how this is even worth optimizing. When is it going to make a difference? I just don't see how this would have a meaningful impact, even if its true.

Dihlyte

12-22-2023, 03:17 AM

What happened to TH+ from gear and traits capping at 8? Are you implying that 8 is only the max initial application and gear beyond +8 actually does increase the proc rate?

The initial TH debuff you can apply to the enemy caps at 8.

Procing after 8, to then 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 (14 being the total cap of TH a enemy can be applied by a 1,200 job point THF) is "affected" by equipment.

You cannot "raise" the proc rate, as this is a set value.
You *can* however, prevent its decay.

Decay on TH Proc values happen when your current TH value in traits and equipment are lower than that of the enemies current TH debuff value.

As presented perfectly here:

https://i.imgur.com/0z5iy85.png

In other words, you want to be using a total of TH14 value if you wish to proc to 14.

If you wish to proc as high as you can prior to an enemies death, you also want TH14 total.

Anything above TH14 is not helpful, (as 14 is the maximum you can apply, and the "proc rate is set") and anything below 14 is not going to maximize your chances. You can still proc, but your rate will be diminished.

Catmato

12-22-2023, 04:16 AM

Procing after 8, to then 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 (14 being the total cap of TH a enemy can be applied by a 1,200 job point THF) is "affected" by equipment.

This thread is the first I've heard of this being true. Is this just common knowledge and I just completely missed it?

Alhanelem

12-22-2023, 09:32 AM

This thread is the first I've heard of this being true. Is this just common knowledge and I just completely missed it?It's only affected in the sense that if you don't have enough, you're at a disadvantage. There's no benefit to having more than necessary.

Dihlyte

12-24-2023, 07:33 AM

This thread is the first I've heard of this being true. Is this just common knowledge and I just completely missed it?

Here is the quote from the deve we're gathering our information from.

The part I snip to includes the specific aspect we're referring.

When the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary.

With that said, if you want to increase the Treasure Hunter value, it is best to utilize equipment that has the Treasure Hunter+ effect. By unequipping Treasure Hunter+ gear, you are essentially creating a gap between the value placed on the monster and your character, which results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value.

There have been requests to make it so that it's possible to switch out TH+ gear after the TH effect is placed on a monster, but as there is a concern that this would reduce the value of equipment with Treasure Hunter+ and also takes away all the hard work some players have put into maximize their Treasure Hunter.

Catmato

12-24-2023, 10:02 PM

Here is the quote from the deve we're gathering our information from.

The part I snip to includes the specific aspect we're referring.

That's the same post I quoted here (https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/27974-TH-Procing?p=658123&viewfull=1#post658123), but I still can't find any source, be it from the devs themselves or from community testing, stating that equipping TH+ beyond 8 has any effect on the proc rate or anything else.

Alhanelem

12-25-2023, 02:13 PM

Ultimately the implication is strong that TH+ is the only influencing factor. Unless evidence to the contrary is presented, I see no reason to believe any other combat statistics play a direct role in TH application.

Dihlyte

12-26-2023, 08:43 AM

That's the same post I quoted here (https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/27974-TH-Procing?p=658123&viewfull=1#post658123), but I still can't find any source, be it from the devs themselves or from community testing, stating that equipping TH+ beyond 8 has any effect on the proc rate or anything else.

Please read.

You ask about TH+ 8.

The dev said, and I quote:

when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary.

TH is essentially a debuff.

When you use TH+8 total, and then proceed to proc to 9, and you remain in only TH+8 total, there is now a difference between your TH value and the enemies TH value.

This will cause the rate to now vary. As there is now a difference between your value, and the enemies value.

If you then proc to 10, and you continue to remain in TH+8 value, there is an even larger difference between your equipment/totals and the enemies total.

This means you encounter a decay, or a loss in your proc rate.

If I am in TH+14, and I proc from 8 to 9, there is no "loss" in difference. As stated by the Developer:

Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate.

So clearly it is being said, that using any TH+ total value below the current enemies value, will not "increase" the rate, but will instead "lower" the rate if your value is lower.

This is a source directly from the developer, clearly stating, that using anything below TH+14 when trying to proc to TH+14 will cause a reduced chance.

Using only TH+8 while trying to proc to TH+10 from TH+9, which:

results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value.

In other words, it is "important" to use TH+ equipment, removing the need for TH+ equipment,

takes away all the hard work some players have put into maximize their Treasure Hunter.

Thus, they have no plans to change how TH+ equipment affects the system as a whole.

There is your source, that using anything lower than TH+14 will reduce your chances to proc to a total of TH+14 on the enemy.

If you are using only TH+8, trying to proc to 9, 10, any number past 8 will be reduced. As stated by the developer. The source you quoted is the source that says this very information.

Dihlyte

12-26-2023, 08:51 AM

You cannot raise the proc rate, but using a TH value lower than the enemies, will lower your chances to proc.

Using only TH+8 to try procing to 10 is inefficient.

Using TH+22 is no better than using TH+14, as 14 is the highest value you can proc.

This is the community now telling you TH+8 is not the most effective means by which attempting to proc to TH+14.

This information is also on BGwiki, and has been:

Example 2: If you plant TH6 on the monster by pulling with your TH gear on and then swap to TH3 to kill the monster, there is a 3-level gap between your current TH level and the monster's current TH level. This makes it comparatively more difficult to proc (approximately a 2% chance per melee round).

https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Treasure_Hunter

As well as FFXIcylopedia:

The chance to increase your TH bonus greatly diminishes with each level of difference between the target's current Treasure Hunter effect and your current Treasure Hunter bonus. For example, if you apply TH8 on a monster, and then drop your TH bonus to 3 by switching equipment, further increments will be that much rarer.

https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Treasure_Hunter

Dihlyte

12-26-2023, 09:00 AM

Finally, adding the last bit of useful information:

In some instances, it is likely "better" to keep an enemy alive for longer, in an attempt to proc to TH+14.

It also is clear, in some cases it is "better" to use only minimal TH+ equipment to maximize damage to eliminate enemies faster.

The player must decide in these instances.

Gwydion

12-26-2023, 12:36 PM

Hoping my post doesn't get buried with all of the detailed replies. This is the thread I'm hoping that SE responds to, with 13 likes as of this post:

Combining everyone's input and converting Camate's words with sample data, I've constructed the following tables that I believe illustrate his point.

Assumptions:
Base TH Proc Rate is X. (Yellow) Base TH Proc Rate never changes for a positive TH difference between player and monster. Base TH Proc Rate shrinks when TH difference between player and mob is negative. I have assumed a 10% shrinkage (rate of decay) for TH procs below just for illustration purposes.

Questions for SE that will help us players remain current in 2023:
Does critical hit rate increase base TH proc rate or subsequent TH proc rates? Does the subsequent TH proc rate shrink when TH difference is negative as implied by Camate?
If so, by what amount does the TH proc rate shrink? Can player behavior influence this change outside of wearing more TH+ gear, as described below (and by Camate)?
Are personal drop loot (such as Peaches battle, macrocosmic orb campaign, etc). modified by their own Base TH proc rate and a separate rate of decay?

Thank you for so much in advance, even for just reading.

https://i.imgur.com/0z5iy85.png

Catmato

12-27-2023, 04:00 PM

Please read.
Why start off by being condescending? I'm legit trying to learn.

I've understood the concept from the start; it's not that complicated. I'm not disagreeing or confused with any part of how the upgrade system works, just the cap on TH gear.

Devs have said that TH+ from gear and traits caps at 8. You are saying otherwise. Everything you're basing your replies on assumes that the TH8 cap only applies to the starting point but is bypassed for upgrade procs.

From your own link at https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Treasure_Hunter

Treasure Hunter+ from equipment stacks with your Job Trait bonus, Atma of Dread, and Treasure Hound, and caps at 8 for Thief as a main job.
Also at bg https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Treasure_Hunter

With THF as a main job, the effect of equipment, atma, and job ability bonuses on Treasure Hunter is limited to a base of Treasure Hunter +8

Neither source makes any reference to procs bypassing this cap. Neither of them use example numbers for using anything beyond +8. From the start, I've been asking you where this cap bypass information came from.

Alhanelem

12-27-2023, 07:01 PM

Far as I'm aware the cap is 8, the examples depict how TH is impacted. so once you pass level 8, the gap increases between the TH on the mob and your TH level which makes it harder to proc.

But this discussion has mainly been about if there are any other factors involved (which no one has provided any evidence for, just a supposition that SE does things secretly/in weird ways therefore there must be secret variables even though SE said otherwise, and asking SE to answer questions even though they already answered them)

Dihlyte

12-28-2023, 12:49 AM

Why start off by being condescending? I'm legit trying to learn.

I've understood the concept from the start; it's not that complicated. I'm not disagreeing or confused with any part of how the upgrade system works, just the cap on TH gear.

Devs have said that TH+ from gear and traits caps at 8. You are saying otherwise. Everything you're basing your replies on assumes that the TH8 cap only applies to the starting point but is bypassed for upgrade procs.

From your own link at https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Treasure_Hunter

Also at bg https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Treasure_Hunter

Neither source makes any reference to procs bypassing this cap. Neither of them use example numbers for using anything beyond +8. From the start, I've been asking you where this cap bypass information came from.

I'm sorry that was not my intention.

I felt you were not reading what was being said.

I believe personally that the developer cleared up any questions anyone could have.

For me, I will utilize a TH14 THF.

If you will utilize a TH8 THF perhaps that is more beneficial to you.

The important thing is to have fun!

Catmato

12-28-2023, 03:48 AM

But this discussion has mainly been about if there are any other factors involved

Yeah, I didn't even touch that part of the discussion because I've never heard of crits or anything else changing the proc rate. Obviously in a very long parse, crits are going to have a slightly increased rate since SA and TA both force crits and have an increased proc chance.

I checked out FFXIAH forums where there's a current discussion (https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/55788/treasure-hunter-proc-rate-testing-th-8-versus-14/7/#3688782) with people smarter than me who have suggested that more than TH8 probably doesn't help.

Alhanelem

12-28-2023, 03:50 AM

I'm sorry that was not my intention.

I felt you were not reading what was being said.

I believe personally that the developer cleared up any questions anyone could have.

For me, I will utilize a TH14 THF.

If you will utilize a TH8 THF perhaps that is more beneficial to you.

The important thing is to have fun!

Their statement is you cannot obtain TH14 in gear. They aren't disputing that more TH is better than less, that's a given. Thus, once you reach TH8, you're always being penalized by a difference between your TH and that of the mob. And this would seem to be the reason people want to figure out how to optimize.

However, SE themselves said that only TH affects the TH activation rate. So unless SE is being secretly cryptic (like what is being assumed in some cases) there's nothing we can do to affect the proc rate positively once we get to 8. I do not think there is anything THFs can or need to do in order to optimize their game for their key purpose beyond obtaining the maximum TH from gear)

Gwydion

01-17-2024, 07:18 AM

Combining everyone's input and converting Camate's words with sample data, I've constructed the following tables that I believe illustrate his point.

Assumptions:
Base TH Proc Rate is X. (Yellow) Base TH Proc Rate never changes for a positive TH difference between player and monster. Base TH Proc Rate shrinks when TH difference between player and mob is negative. I have assumed a 10% shrinkage (rate of decay) for TH procs below just for illustration purposes.

Questions for SE that will help us players remain current in 2023:
Does critical hit rate increase base TH proc rate or subsequent TH proc rates? Does the subsequent TH proc rate shrink when TH difference is negative as implied by Camate?
If so, by what amount does the TH proc rate shrink? Can player behavior influence this change outside of wearing more TH+ gear, as described below (and by Camate)?
Are personal drop loot (such as Peaches battle, macrocosmic orb campaign, etc). modified by their own Base TH proc rate and a separate rate of decay?

Thank you for so much in advance, even for just reading.

https://i.imgur.com/0z5iy85.png

Bumping in the hopes of a reply from SE. I'm concerned that NA FFXI players simply don't Like posts because they are resigned due to a lack of engagement from SE. We know you guys are super-busy and wear many hats, but please help us out. Thank you.

Alhanelem

01-17-2024, 01:54 PM

I'm concerned that NA FFXI players simply don't Like posts because they are resigned due to a lack of engagement from SE. Or maybe we don't like posts because... we don't like them enough to do so? I think you overestimate both the number of people that actually care about this enough to go to SE on the issue, and also the potential impact of any discovery made here. If any modifiers do exist, they are tiny, otherwise you would be able to observe clear and noticeable differences between people with different stats. And in my casual observation, I've never seen any.

Crazy thought. It might also have something to do with the fact that only a small number of people actually post here and we've all already made our feelings known.

Bumping wont get you replies. Particularly when it's already on the front page.

All this time I still don't see anything that needs addressing. SE provided us all the answers. There is no secret modifiers to TH proc chance. If you truly believe that there is, then test for them. It's not hard to do and even if there is an RNG modifier, you can still confirm whether or not a modifier exists at all. "it's too hard" is not an excuse.

But I don't see it as necessary. As far as we can tell from what SE has already told us, the only modifier is the difference between your TH level and the TH level you are trying to reach. Please, for everyone's sanity, stop just assuming that secret unknown modifiers must exist just because they exist for something else. I'm not trying to attack you here. But if you want to make these arguments, you need SOMETHING to back them up.

Also: Let's just pretend you're right for a moment: How is discovering that XYZ thing increases proc rate by 1% going to suddenly make THF more relevant? TH is TH, people will take it if they can get it. Tell FFXI players everywhere why they should care about this.

Gwydion

01-17-2024, 11:18 PM

Or maybe we don't like posts because... we don't like them enough to do so? I think you overestimate both the number of people that actually care about this enough to go to SE on the issue, and also the potential impact of any discovery made here. If any modifiers do exist, they are tiny, otherwise you would be able to observe clear and noticeable differences between people with different stats. And in my casual observation, I've never seen any.

Crazy thought. It might also have something to do with the fact that only a small number of people actually post here and we've all already made our feelings known.

Bumping wont get you replies. Particularly when it's already on the front page.

All this time I still don't see anything that needs addressing. SE provided us all the answers. There is no secret modifiers to TH proc chance. If you truly believe that there is, then test for them. It's not hard to do and even if there is an RNG modifier, you can still confirm whether or not a modifier exists at all. "it's too hard" is not an excuse.

But I don't see it as necessary. As far as we can tell from what SE has already told us, the only modifier is the difference between your TH level and the TH level you are trying to reach. Please, for everyone's sanity, stop just assuming that secret unknown modifiers must exist just because they exist for something else. I'm not trying to attack you here. But if you want to make these arguments, you need SOMETHING to back them up.

Also: Let's just pretend you're right for a moment: How is discovering that XYZ thing increases proc rate by 1% going to suddenly make THF more relevant? TH is TH, people will take it if they can get it. Tell FFXI players everywhere why they should care about this.

SE's answers would tell us if we can prevent TH proc rate from decaying by increasing TH+ in gear by 1 for every TH proc we receive, above TH8. (i.e. Wear TH+5 to proc TH9 -> Wear TH+6, to proc TH+10, wear TH+7 to proc TH+11, etc.) OR Does simply wearing TH+11/12 cover all bases for TH proc rate decay?

Alhanelem

01-18-2024, 09:46 AM

SE's answers would tell us if we can prevent TH proc rate from decaying by increasing TH+ in gear by 1 for every TH proc we receive, above TH8.Maybe I'm out of touch with the available gear, but I thought 8 was the maximum TH attainable from gear?

Regardless, the comments from SE strongly imply that the only factor here is the difference between the current TH on the mob and your TH level. Nothing is "decaying," their statement simply means a larger difference between those two numbers means a smaller proc rate. Considering they said that this is the only factor, there is nothing you can do to prevent the rate from getting worse, other than them releasing gear with more TH on it. I still see no evidence that there are any other factors at work, and frankly, I think SE's explanation is plenty clear.

My previous question remains though- why is this important? Even if there was some way to max out the TH bonus faster, I don't see how this makes THF more relevant. If you want to maximize TH you'll find some way to do it. the time it takes is mostly not important unless the time limit of the content is preventing it. And even then, more drop rate is more drop rate and if people can make something drop easier, they're going to take a THF regardless of how easy maxing the TH is. THF also doesn't have any jobs that compete with it for this effect.

Gwydion

02-09-2024, 08:51 AM

Combining everyone's input and converting Camate's words with sample data, I've constructed the following tables that I believe illustrate his point.

Assumptions:
Base TH Proc Rate is X. (Yellow) Base TH Proc Rate never changes for a positive TH difference between player and monster. Base TH Proc Rate shrinks when TH difference between player and mob is negative. I have assumed a 10% shrinkage (rate of decay) for TH procs below just for illustration purposes.

Questions for SE that will help us players remain current in 2023:
Does critical hit rate increase base TH proc rate or subsequent TH proc rates? Does the subsequent TH proc rate shrink when TH difference is negative as implied by Camate?
If so, by what amount does the TH proc rate shrink? Can player behavior influence this change outside of wearing more TH+ gear, as described below (and by Camate)?
Are personal drop loot (such as Peaches battle, macrocosmic orb campaign, etc). modified by their own Base TH proc rate and a separate rate of decay?

Thank you for so much in advance, even for just reading.

https://i.imgur.com/0z5iy85.png

Based on yesterday's Primed for Vanadiel stream, this post got 13 likes, it would be nice if we could get an explanation from the development team about how to influence the rate at which TH decays.

Alhanelem

02-09-2024, 10:32 AM

There is no way to influence the rate other than change the difference between your TH and the TH on the mob, or by using SATA which is known to provide a significant increase for that one attack.

SE has already answered this question. Even though people have argued after just a little eyeballing that crits might provide a miniscule rate increase (Those people claiming this is true say its maybe a 1-2% increase), all the crit in the world isn't going to change how people use THF, nor would it be worth doing to somehow make THF more relevant.

The far bigger issue than all of this is the simple fact that TH simply doesn't work at all in too many fights where loot comes out of chests with fixed ratios or personal rewards where TH can not be used. Frankly, if you are looking for ways to up your THF game and become more wanted/relevant in content, it's going to have to be through improving the job's damage potential.

THere is nothing out there that contradicts what SE previously said on this issue. All we have is a few people in the community who have made a suggestion of some other modifiers, but no one has provided enough data or proof that a reasonable person could conclude that such a thing probably exists.

Catmato

02-09-2024, 10:41 PM

You are absolutely correct but you're wasting your time. Both of us have posted multiple times in this thread saying there's no evidence that anything but attacking with a total of TH+8 has any effect on the proc rate aside from SA/TA/Feint. They keep asking about modifiers that almost certainly aren't there or how much the TH proc rate lowers with progressive TH levels, which does happen but there's almost no need to know the exact math behind it; wear TH+8 to get the maximum effect (or max TH+ that you can wear if you think more than +8 makes a difference for some reason).

Alhanelem

02-10-2024, 09:29 AM

Thanks. I just think the crux of this is really just, even if I was willing to think that these claims were true, a slight improvement to THF's speed of capping TH is not going to be some miracle cure for people wanting THF in content, because 1) a lot of content doesn't benefit from TH very much no matter how much you buff it up, and 2) THF needs to be better at other things too.

Vold

02-22-2024, 12:29 PM

I mean I could put this to the test on lilith or something, with tens if not hundreds of thousands of attack rounds trying to cap TH before kills if anyone thinks the effort of tracking crit hits would be worthwhile but I am entirely content with just leaving on TH gear when farming anything. I can check on it. I just feel like it's a very unlikely outcome that crit hits improve proc rate. I think that idea maybe comes from SA procs which are always crits.

Voidstorm

02-22-2024, 07:39 PM

I have the fix for TH. make it so any job with subjob THF can get up to TH8. that way a full set of volte can relegate THF to the dumpster forever.
Oh, wait, then in the subsequent update make main THF capable of TH12~14 directly. end this proc system.

Gwydion

11-03-2024, 12:23 AM

Combining everyone's input and converting Camate's words with sample data, I've constructed the following tables that I believe illustrate his point.

Assumptions:
Base TH Proc Rate is X. (Yellow) Base TH Proc Rate never changes for a positive TH difference between player and monster. Base TH Proc Rate shrinks when TH difference between player and mob is negative. I have assumed a 10% shrinkage (rate of decay) for TH procs below just for illustration purposes.

Questions for SE that will help us players remain current in 2023:
Does critical hit rate increase base TH proc rate or subsequent TH proc rates? Does the subsequent TH proc rate shrink when TH difference is negative as implied by Camate?
If so, by what amount does the TH proc rate shrink? Can player behavior influence this change outside of wearing more TH+ gear, as described below (and by Camate)?
Are personal drop loot (such as Peaches battle, macrocosmic orb campaign, etc). modified by their own Base TH proc rate and a separate rate of decay?

Thank you for so much in advance, even for just reading.

https://i.imgur.com/0z5iy85.png

Here's hoping that SE can answer the above questions for us. I would like to equip the correct armor, to prevent the TH proc rate from shrinking, as the mob's TH level increases. When I say correct armor, I mean, the stat that Camate alluded to, which is more TH+ AND...perhaps, any other stats that we players, might be unaware of. My humble and hopeful guess is that Critical Hit Rate also improves TH proc rate...but I'll never be able to confirm this myself. Please help us out SE! :)

Dihlyte

11-03-2024, 06:55 AM

I’m working on correct testing, but I’ve been quite busy lately.

I already learned that a difference in the level of the player and the enemy, is a very obvious factor.

I personally do not feel Crit hit rate players a role, but that needs direct testing.

It is also obvious that the more TH you have the greater chance you will have at procing. Obviously still needs more testing as per our previous discussion.

My next test will be to use the level 70 dagger, to reduce my damage on lower level mobs.

I just got the dagger two days ago.

Currently I am working 3 days in a row, and limited play time, which I normally have mondays off, so my testing will be further delayed.

Odyssey, Sortie, Omen, etc all have priority over testing TH, so I have no clue how much longer it will be until I can get back to it, but I will eventually, because the lack of information on this topic, when it’s not a mystery at all, is quite silly.