Dual-wield for cor

[Oakrest]

Consider it! It would make perfect sense for the lore of the job, and wouldn't be too overpowering. I think it should be awarded to cor @ level 49.

[Mirabelle]

Sure and then they can give one handed weapons that are more useful than Staves.

[Zagen]

How exactly does Dual Wield tie into the lore of the job?


Sure and then they can give one handed weapons that are more useful than Staves.

Like Nguul or Acinaces when subbing /WAR for Fencer bonus?

[Saefinn]

Don't see many pirates out there dual weilding and I don't see anything in the FFXI lore for it. If you wanna dual weild sub /NIN or /DNC, they're both acceptable subjobs for a COR as they come with other benefits, though obviously people prefer COR for buffs and WS's making /SAM useful, but I'm all for people adopting their own play styles.

[Babekeke]

Dual-Wield a Sword or dagger in main-hand, and a hook for off-hand is the only thing that would "tie in with the lore of the job".

[Afania]

Don't see many pirates out there dual weilding and I don't see anything in the FFXI lore for it. If you wanna dual weild sub /NIN or /DNC, they're both acceptable subjobs for a COR as they come with other benefits, though obviously people prefer COR for buffs and WS's making /SAM useful, but I'm all for people adopting their own play styles.

Prince Luzaf in FFXI DW a dagger and a sword if I remember correctly.

Giving COR innate DW may open up different SJ choice for melee WS/TP. Such as ability to /WAR and still able to do melee WS/TP. Atm if you want to play COR like a 1h melee job, you have to /NIN or DNC, and will do much less dmg than other 1h melee job with innate DW such as BLU/WAR DNC/WAR etc since they can /WAR, on top of having better weapons and job trait for melee.

There are also little practical use for melee COR/WAR due to lack of good melee weapons and good melee Job trait. A melee COR will be slightly weaker than other 1h melee job such as DNC BLU NIN or even THF. Most of the time if I'm meleeing and using dagger WS, I'm either fighting EP/DC mobs or lower tier VW, and benefiting pt member with haste samba/waltz. It opens up a new play style with /WAR, but since it's a support role job it probably still benefits the most from /DNC.

Although innate DW and playing it like a melee job when you don't need /DNC haste samba/waltz is cool and all, it probably won't be anything that's very beneficial.

[hiko]

How exactly does Dual Wield tie into the lore of the job?



Like Nguul or Acinaces when subbing /WAR for Fencer bonus?
fencer bonus in a dual wield thread?

[Zagen]

fencer bonus in a dual wield thread?
COR excels in events where it isn't able to be up in the face of a monster meleeing. Considering there isn't any dagger combo that trumps Nguul or Acinaces and fencer bonus or the benefits of elemental staves, why would we want DW?

[Afania]

COR excels in events where it isn't able to be up in the face of a monster meleeing. Considering there isn't any dagger combo that trumps Nguul or Acinaces and fencer bonus or the benefits of elemental staves, why would we want DW?

Now that I think about it, getting DW with /WAR may potentially allow better last stand spam in capped haste situations, with extra offhand DPS, more STR or AGI, and faster TP gain than shooting. It could open up some more room to push more output in some situation.

This job isn't as DW reliant as DNC or BLU or THF though.

[Zagen]

Now that I think about it, getting DW with /WAR may potentially allow better last stand spam in capped haste situations, with extra offhand DPS, more STR or AGI, and faster TP gain than shooting. It could open up some more room to push more output in some situation.

This job isn't as DW reliant as DNC or BLU or THF though.
The only situations (that I can think of at least) where you'd be pushing out a lot more TP meleeing than shooting/qd/regaining to offset the lower WS damage would be situations where a COR isn't really needed.

[Afania]

The only situations (that I can think of at least) where you'd be pushing out a lot more TP meleeing than shooting/qd/regaining to offset the lower WS damage would be situations where a COR isn't really needed.

Actually, no, getting DW while giving up fencer bonus actually make your last stand stronger when you /WAR.

Assuming 200 AGI, 137 STR on COR/WAR with nguul, target VIT 110ish and 16 fSTR2, pDIF at 3.

(165+16+170)x4.5125=1583
1583x3=4749


Without fencer bonus, but with DW, you can offhand another STR sword such as prov sword or Sagasinger, pushes your fSTR2 to 20~23.

With Sagasinger but no fencer bonus:
(165+23+170)x4.4625=1597
1597x3=4790

(165+20+170)x4.4625=1584
1584x3=4752

Even with prov sword, DW still superior to fencer bonus, with Sagasinger the gap gets bigger. And that's just counting WS dmg, no extra TP dmg. Even if you can't melee the target at all, DW still has higher number.

As for the usefulness of meleeing, I think it's viable in VW with fana and march, especially lower tier when 1h weapon dmg isn't that bad.

For lowman content such as limbus/dyna/nyzul, I wouldn't mind more output in those event too. Of course you can argue that COR isn't "needed" in those, but so does any none-mage job. Technically those content can be done with any combination of DD jobs+mage. So it's a nice extra advantage to increase output if someone want to play COR in those content.

[Zagen]

Actually, no, getting DW while giving up fencer bonus actually make your last stand stronger when you /WAR.

Assuming 200 AGI, 137 STR on COR/WAR with nguul, target VIT 110ish and 16 fSTR2, pDIF at 3.

(165+16+170)x4.5125=1583
1583x3=4749


Without fencer bonus, but with DW, you can offhand another STR sword such as prov sword or Sagasinger, pushes your fSTR2 to 20~23.

With Sagasinger but no fencer bonus:
(165+23+170)x4.4625=1597
1597x3=4790

(165+20+170)x4.4625=1584
1584x3=4752

Even with prov sword, DW still superior to fencer bonus, with Sagasinger the gap gets bigger. And that's just counting WS dmg, no extra TP dmg. Even if you can't melee the target at all, DW still has higher number.
Aluh is a more real offhand option which happens to fit the 20 equation. So I stand corrected you do 3 more damage.


As for the usefulness of meleeing, I think it's viable in VW with fana and march, especially lower tier when 1h weapon dmg isn't that bad.
Unless you're eating sushi I would go out and say not really viable in VW beyond Jeuno. As to cities considering when I do those all DD are holding back waiting for one person to call out procs because they die that fast, why would the COR be up there knocking off HP? Maybe for low man situations but otherwise I just don't see it.


For lowman content such as limbus/dyna/nyzul, I wouldn't mind more output in those event too. Of course you can argue that COR isn't "needed" in those, but so does any none-mage job. Technically those content can be done with any combination of DD jobs+mage. So it's a nice extra advantage to increase output if someone want to play COR in those content.
Like you said "needed" and "nice" aren't really the same.
Neo-Limbus? Maybe to build pops it's viable, not sure tbh.
Dynamis? I sure hope you're EXPing at which point who gives a crap, if you're there for currency why aren't you /DNC for procs?
NNI? Even with the proposed changes so far it doesn't look appealing for COR.

[Afania]

Aluh is a more real offhand option which happens to fit the 20 equation. So I stand corrected you do 3 more damage.


Unless you're eating sushi I would go out and say not really viable in VW beyond Jeuno.

You get hunters roll, aggressor and temp, and you can adjust your TP set for more accuracy, I don't think sushi is needed to hit stuff with a dagger, although I've never try on something like watcher. But long time ago I had about 86% on unbuffed BLU(which happened to be 1h job too) on watcher. That's with just pizza, and no SV acc song+hunters. COR with those should be 80% no matter what.

[Zagen]

You get hunters roll, aggressor and temp, and you can adjust your TP set for more accuracy, I don't think sushi is needed to hit stuff with a dagger, although I've never try on something like watcher. But long time ago I had about 86% on unbuffed BLU(which happened to be 1h job too) on watcher. That's with just pizza, and no SV acc song+hunters. COR with those should be 80% no matter what.
I can see Hunter's helping on certain VW but not something across the board at which point you have to run off to roll it so you aren't overwriting rolls on other DDs. At that point you're banking on the fights lasting <5-6 minutes, they shouldn't last that long but sometimes they do and at which point you're running away to reapply hunter's roll which would hurt the melee concept.

As to the anecdotal story, 12.6 more accuracy on BLU without even counting any other stat compared to COR with daggers add another 5~ more if Almace is 85. 4.5 more from Suppa. 10 more if you're setting Accuracy Bonus because you don't make your BLU completely useless, obviously depends on play style of your group but you start to get the point.

If COR got something like Pianissimo the idea of it being a viable melee option due to Hunter's Roll would become more plausible in my mind. Though at that point I wouldn't be surprised if SE thought COR is too powerful to get DW without a nerf.

[Babekeke]

I can help you out on a copuple of things:


Neo-Limbus? Maybe to build pops it's viable, not sure tbh.

Unless you're really short on time to do limbus, and therefore need to finish each zone really fast, you're better off to have the cor swap to thf and go solo a zone for extra coins to buy the chips. Personally I like temenos west on thf, and can get ~75 clearing every mob.


Dynamis? I sure hope you're EXPing at which point who gives a crap, if you're there for currency why aren't you /DNC for procs?

Uh, if you're exping, you want to kill every mob ASAP, so surely everyone gives a crap?

[Zagen]

Unless you're really short on time to do limbus, and therefore need to finish each zone really fast, you're better off to have the cor swap to thf and go solo a zone for extra coins to buy the chips. Personally I like temenos west on thf, and can get ~75 clearing every mob.
The comment was based on the assumption the COR was coming to Neo-Limbus already not how the player would preform most efficiently.


Uh, if you're exping, you want to kill every mob ASAP, so surely everyone gives a crap?
If you can't hit 20k exp in 1 run with a group without a COR there's something wrong.

So I'll elaborate: Who gives a crap, you should be hitting 20k EXP way before the 2hour limit in a group so really a COR meleeing or not meleeing is of no consequence when your main goal is EXP.

[Afania]

I can see Hunter's helping on certain VW but not something across the board at which point you have to run off to roll it so you aren't overwriting rolls on other DDs. At that point you're banking on the fights lasting <5-6 minutes, they shouldn't last that long but sometimes they do and at which point you're running away to reapply hunter's roll which would hurt the melee concept.

As to the anecdotal story, 12.6 more accuracy on BLU without even counting any other stat compared to COR with daggers add another 5~ more if Almace is 85. 4.5 more from Suppa. 10 more if you're setting Accuracy Bonus because you don't make your BLU completely useless, obviously depends on play style of your group but you start to get the point.

If COR got something like Pianissimo the idea of it being a viable melee option due to Hunter's Roll would become more plausible in my mind. Though at that point I wouldn't be surprised if SE thought COR is too powerful to get DW without a nerf.

I just did a Prov Watcher run on COR, Tried COR/WAR meleeing for TP with Aluh for 1st time, and no sushi nor any acc food. Due to being 1st time, I forgot to pop aggressor, and TP set was crap(missing new acc DA TP piece.) and bad macro position made plenty of melee swings in WS set. But I parsed about 73% without aggressor, with aggressor it should be 85%, with new acc back piece and some more acc gear, it should hit 90%+ np. Note that each swing can crit to 140~160 a swing, without crit about 40~80. But the point is to gain TP faster than /ra. I'm very certain that you don't need a sushi to hit those if done properly.

But I believe that for this particular BC, melee for TP is probably superior option than /ra for TP(with embrava and BRD songs) I parsed slightly higher than using staff and spamming WF on none-firesday, just because buffed last stand dmg is pretty high(easily 3k+, and I've done 4.1k once) on Prov watcher and I get to WS faster with a melee weapon. If you can some how not hit a 0 with Mkirs, I only see the output be even higher as long as TP move isn't zomg a big problem.

As for "you need to run away from other DD to roll yourself" arguement, I always roll myself after melee done, since the roll that benefit me usually is different from melee anyways, so doing hunter doesn't hurt. Even if I /ra, I still use different set of rolls.

[Zagen]

I just did a Prov Watcher run on COR, Tried COR/WAR meleeing for TP with Aluh for 1st time, and no sushi nor any acc food. Due to being 1st time, I forgot to pop aggressor, and TP set was crap(missing new acc DA TP piece.) and bad macro position made plenty of melee swings in WS set. But I parsed about 73% without aggressor, with aggressor it should be 85%, with new acc back piece and some more acc gear, it should hit 90%+ np. Note that each swing can crit to 140~160 a swing, without crit about 40~80. But the point is to gain TP faster than /ra. I'm very certain that you don't need a sushi to hit those if done properly.

But I believe that for this particular BC, melee for TP is probably superior option than /ra for TP(with embrava and BRD songs) I parsed slightly higher than using staff and spamming WF on none-firesday, just because buffed last stand dmg is pretty high(easily 3k+, and I've done 4.1k once) on Prov watcher and I get to WS faster with a melee weapon. If you can some how not hit a 0 with Mkirs, I only see the output be even higher as long as TP move isn't zomg a big problem.

As for "you need to run away from other DD to roll yourself" argument, I always roll myself after melee done, since the roll that benefit me usually is different from melee anyways, so doing hunter doesn't hurt. Even if I /ra, I still use different set of rolls.
Heh your numbers sound like I've over estimated Prov which is nice to hear. Madrigals or no?

As to the comment of running away it would, as you'd be out of melee range thus greatly reducing the tp gain, which is what I intended to be implied by it. However your numbers definitely sound like with aggressor + gear acc should be capped if not could do sushi and change around gear a bit.

[Afania]

Heh your numbers sound like I've over estimated Prov which is nice to hear. Madrigals or no?


Yes used SV Madrigalx1 Min x3(BRD x2) like aways, but this fight already been using SV Madrigal for ages, it's not like we suddenly changed BRD buff just so that COR can DD. I also used hunters on myself. I'd imagine after embrava nerf this probably need empy BRD to work well though, not enough song slot with march ;<



As to the comment of running away it would, as you'd be out of melee range thus greatly reducing the tp gain, which is what I intended to be implied by it. However your numbers definitely sound like with aggressor + gear acc should be capped if not could do sushi and change around gear a bit.


In VW or Prov in general, I usually do 2 melee buff before we pop/enter BC, then buffx2 myself(regain Mattk if spamming WF) while everyone else popping temps. The fight usually end before roll wears unless mega-death(which shouldn't happen) And if mega death would be hard to rebuff melee to begin with, even if you don't buff yourself.

After fight end, I redo 2x melee again and do my own roll again in that little down time, so duration is fresh and new again. A good pt usually end each BC in less than 5 min, so it's not a problem to have roll stay up whole time without the need to run away and buff myself a whole lot. I try to avoid rebuff mid-fight as much as possible(although I still do them if it really wears before fight ends), it just hurts my DPS without much benefit to rebuff mid-fight, also pretty dangerous to do so especially if Fana is down. I also always use 3~4 rolls, Chaos/DA on melee, 1~2different ones on myself depending on which WS I use. Mattk for WF, regain if I'm /ra, leave chaos on if I'm doing last stand and so on. I also have 45 sec Phantom roll recast, so it doesn't take aweful lot long time to do my own buff when DDs still popping temps.

I do rebuff if the fight last very long and roll wear mid-fight, but I rarely need to. At very best I need to rebuff once(if I need to rebuff twice then that pt is beyond terrible in terms of killing speed) I also always ask DD to lock buffs if pt spending longer to do other stuff so rolls isn't wasted.

In the case of Prov watcher, rebuff 2x melee rolls, leave Chaos on, run in and do hunters on myself, by the time melee roll gone watcher already dead since it's a 1.5 min~3 min zerg.

[Babekeke]

The comment was based on the assumption the COR was coming to Neo-Limbus already not how the player would preform most efficiently.

You said to farm pop sets. They then have 3 days to swap jobs back to COR, that should be enough.



If you can't hit 20k exp in 1 run with a group without a COR there's something wrong.

So I'll elaborate: Who gives a crap, you should be hitting 20k EXP way before the 2hour limit in a group so really a COR meleeing or not meleeing is of no consequence when your main goal is EXP.

If I was in a group doing dyna for exp with a cor and he just stood there with his thumb up his arse between rolls, I'd boot him. Get your sword/dagger out and join in, since most cors complain about how much it costs for cards/bullets.

[Zagen]

Yes used SV Madrigalx1 Min x3(BRD x2) like aways, but this fight already been using SV Madrigal for ages, it's not like we suddenly changed BRD buff just so that COR can DD. I also used hunters on myself. I'd imagine after embrava nerf this probably need empy BRD to work well though, not enough song slot with march ;<
Not everyone uses SV Madrigal for VW across the board, I just wanted to know if my suspicion was correct. No SV Madrigal means you're either eating sushi or keeping Hunter's on you.


You said to farm pop sets. They then have 3 days to swap jobs back to COR, that should be enough.
As in the Shining fragment which is part of the pop set for Arch-Ultima or the Glossy fragment for Arch-Omega... Again this isn't about how the player themselves would be most efficient it's how the job could work if they were already there.


If I was in a group doing dyna for exp with a cor and he just stood there with his thumb up his arse between rolls, I'd boot him. Get your sword/dagger out and join in, since most cors complain about how much it costs for cards/bullets.
So then if a COR chose to use ammo/cards for TP instead of daggers you wouldn't give a crap? Hopefully now you get the point.

[Babekeke]

As in the Shining fragment which is part of the pop set for Arch-Ultima or the Glossy fragment for Arch-Omega... Again this isn't about how the player themselves would be most efficient it's how the job could work if they were already there.

These fights were disappointingly easy. Our group did both fights with ~12 people thinking we were probably going to get raped without a full alliance, but we cleared each zone very fast ~15 mins iirc, and half the mobs died before they even got a TP move off. Only 1 hard mob was the (eye I think) NM with gaze death move that he used as soon as puller agro'd. Only 2 of us saw it coming and turned, the rest were still charging it down lol. No reason a COR couldn't melee these mobs at all. DW as well as /war would of course help, but I don't see this as reason enough to get it.


So then if a COR chose to use ammo/cards for TP instead of daggers you wouldn't give a crap?

nope.


Hopefully now you get the point.

I actually agreed with what you were saying with regards to whether or not COR should get DW or not (it shouldn't). It's just that your reasoning as to why it shouldn't get it was lame. "it's not worth it" isn't a valid reason. It's not at all what the job is about, and the person who said it's part of the lore of the job is an idiot imo.

[Zagen]

These fights were disappointingly easy. Our group did both fights with ~12 people thinking we were probably going to get raped without a full alliance, but we cleared each zone very fast ~15 mins iirc, and half the mobs died before they even got a TP move off. Only 1 hard mob was the (eye I think) NM with gaze death move that he used as soon as puller agro'd. Only 2 of us saw it coming and turned, the rest were still charging it down lol. No reason a COR couldn't melee these mobs at all. DW as well as /war would of course help, but I don't see this as reason enough to get it.
So it would be viable.


I actually agreed with what you were saying with regards to whether or not COR should get DW or not (it shouldn't). It's just that your reasoning as to why it shouldn't get it was lame. "it's not worth it" isn't a valid reason. It's not at all what the job is about, and the person who said it's part of the lore of the job is an idiot imo.
Sorry that sentence was in relation to the Dynamis question. You talked about EXP in dynamis as if it was something worth worrying about, when I said "who gives a crap".

If COR got DW you'd get 3 damage boost to WS over Fencer. Now do you honestly believe something like DW would be given without "balance" nerfs? I don't, which is why it wouldn't be worth it.

But it doesn't really matter it's all opinions and despite what SE says I doubt any of our suggestions are listened to. They just post on ones that got lucky and happen to match with what they were planning so it looks like they actually listen.

[Afania]

Not everyone uses SV Madrigal for VW across the board, I just wanted to know if my suspicion was correct. No SV Madrigal means you're either eating sushi or keeping Hunter's on you.



Ppl use SV Madrigal on watcher simply because watcher has highest evasion if I understand correctly. Other VW with acc problem are probably higher tier ones such as rex/Ig-Alima and you're better off not meleeing on rex already. (Not sure if melee/last stand on Ig-Alima is better or not as I never tried, but Rex is WF with a staff NM)





So then if a COR chose to use ammo/cards for TP instead of daggers you wouldn't give a crap? Hopefully now you get the point.

Actually I would XD
It's doing less dmg with A LOT more gil spend, and not using his/her brain to think. A lot of ppl never try to find out optimal way to deal dmg on this job, look at 10000 players WF with a staff on qilin when last stand or even exen with 2x dagger or slug shot does more dmg.

[Zagen]

Actually I would XD
It's doing less dmg with A LOT more gil spend, and not using his/her brain to think. A lot of ppl never try to find out optimal way to deal dmg on this job, look at 10000 players WF with a staff on qilin when last stand or even exen with 2x dagger or slug shot does more dmg.
But why does that matter? Lower damage is irrelevant when without the COR you'd hit 20k without a problem. Remember I'm talking about Dynamis EXP here. The only time I'd care is if it's a small enough group where damage efficiency is a factor on hitting 20k exp.

[Afania]

But why does that matter? Lower damage is irrelevant when without the COR you'd hit 20k without a problem. Remember I'm talking about Dynamis EXP here. The only time I'd care is if it's a small enough group where damage efficiency is a factor on hitting 20k exp.

By that extend I can say spamming WF with a staff on Qilin doesn't matter cuz I can still kill the NM without the COR, and ally can still kill it without a problem. And to extend it even more, I can say that any job without gear swapping doesn't matter, because I can still kill X and Y or Z with those players not gear swapping on all jobs.

Honestly though, unless that person doesn't have proper dagger skill/gear, I can never understand the logic to spend more gil and deal less dmg.

[Zagen]

By that extend I can say spamming WF with a staff on Qilin doesn't matter cuz I can still kill the NM without the COR, and ally can still kill it without a problem. And to extend it even more, I can say that any job without gear swapping doesn't matter, because I can still kill X and Y or Z with those players not gear swapping on all jobs.

Honestly though, unless that person doesn't have proper dagger skill/gear, I can never understand the logic to spend more gil and deal less dmg.
You're right the CORs who spam Wildfire on Quilin are comparable or even the CORs in shout groups who think their job stops at buffs and if COR Ability is a proc.

There isn't supposed to be a logical rational behind it, the point is that regardless of which choice is made the goal is still accomplished. Kinda like having or not having native DW doesn't make or break COR like it does for jobs that have DW now.

[Babekeke]

But why does that matter? Lower damage is irrelevant when without the COR you'd hit 20k without a problem. Remember I'm talking about Dynamis EXP here. The only time I'd care is if it's a small enough group where damage efficiency is a factor on hitting 20k exp.

I think 20k exp depends on much more, like whether or not you are using exp rings, how many in your group, and what jobs they are (can get some bizarre combinations when everyone's there just to get exp for a trial).

[Sunrider]

Semantics aside, I think every job should get a native Dual Wield; everybody's got a use for it, outside of just damage.

A "Dual Wield 0" across the board for all jobs, save for the "Dual Wield specialists" DNC, THF, and NIN, which would get the higher, delay reducing tiers.

[saevel]

I would just give DW2 (15%) to all 1H jobs. DWIII (25%) from /NIN is still better and the DW specialized jobs get much higher then that anyway.

[Afania]

Not everyone uses SV Madrigal for VW across the board, I just wanted to know if my suspicion was correct. No SV Madrigal means you're either eating sushi or keeping Hunter's on you.


Just did another Prov watcher, and here's the parse result with my acc on it. Note that I still don't have optimal melee set, the only acc swap I had is Ziel charm, everything else is avg joe Oce head NQ and Thaumas 4/5.


http://pastebin.com/5XrTPE4e

You can comepare my acc with some of the higher acc DD job such as DRG, rag DRK and WAR etc. A lv 99 Rag DRK and WAR (which are some of the highest acc DD in this game atm as long as they pop JA, due to +40 acc on rag) only have 90%~91% hitrate. DRG, another high acc DD job is only 86%. I'm 84%, only 2% behind DRG and 7% behind rag 99 DRK, without Khepri head and Letalis mantle. With K.head and L.mantle, which is another +28 acc, my hit rate would be capped.

(speaking of which, should have used double mad on dragon since nobody caps acc with just 1 mad D; )

I'd go out and assume, anything a WAR and DRK can hit with a normal TP set, a dagger COR with proper set can hit it with hunters too. So if your melee DD can hit other VW without acc song, no way COR can't hit it either.

[Zagen]

Just did another Prov watcher, and here's the parse result with my acc on it. Note that I still don't have optimal melee set, the only acc swap I had is Ziel charm, everything else is avg joe Oce head NQ and Thaumas 4/5.


http://pastebin.com/5XrTPE4e

You can comepare my acc with some of the higher acc DD job such as DRG, rag DRK and WAR etc. A lv 99 Rag DRK and WAR (which are some of the highest acc DD in this game atm as long as they pop JA, due to +40 acc on rag) only have 90%~91% hitrate. DRG, another high acc DD job is only 86%. I'm 84%, only 2% behind DRG and 7% behind rag 99 DRK, without Khepri head and Letalis mantle. With K.head and L.mantle, which is another +28 acc, my hit rate would be capped.

(speaking of which, should have used double mad on dragon since nobody caps acc with just 1 mad D; )

I'd go out and assume, anything a WAR and DRK can hit with a normal TP set, a dagger COR with proper set can hit it with hunters too. So if your melee DD can hit other VW without acc song, no way COR can't hit it either.

Your theory of anything a DD doesn't need ACC songs a COR could get away with Hunter's is more often than not going to be true but that's because Hunter's Roll is giving you 50-65 ACC on XI. Also in taking that ACC you're giving up another roll.

You don't seem to get the difference between Watcher and any other VW fight. Watcher is not indicative of any other VW fight because it's a 1 time fight. I'm giving up as you keep using a 2hr buffed fight as your basis for all VW when it doesn't apply.

[Afania]

Your theory of anything a DD doesn't need ACC songs a COR could get away with Hunter's is more often than not going to be true but that's because Hunter's Roll is giving you 50-65 ACC on XI. Also in taking that ACC you're giving up another roll.

You don't seem to get the difference between Watcher and any other VW fight. Watcher is not indicative of any other VW fight because it's a 1 time fight. I'm giving up as you keep using a 2hr buffed fight as your basis for all VW when it doesn't apply.

It wasn't a No.11 hunter. Also when everyone receiving the same buff, I fail to see why it can't be same basis. DRK had 91% acc with 2hr buff, so without 2hr buff his acc would drop too. If in another VW fight DRK has 91% acc without 2hr buff, that means my acc wouldn't be too low either.

But anyways, it's not like other T6 VW I can think of that is good for meleeing(have to use WF on rex/bismarck, Ig-A has AoE doom, some other has potent spikes), and no way you'd have acc problem on T3. Unlike Dragon is fairly safe and fast to kill, I melee on dragon simply because if I shoot I parse much lower unless chain proc to recharge wings lolz.

I give up 2nd roll for hunter that's true, but it's not like 2nd song slot would benefit me a lot already. I still use Chaos/DA on DDs so they lose nothing, DA doesn't increase ranged WS dmg so the gain is minial, and regain isn't very potent when haste is capped. The only choice is really just regain or DA. While hunter helps last stand land easier(which allow me to deck out more AGI in last stand set) and melee.

[Zagen]

DRK/WAR Hume:
GS Skill: 433 = 409 ACC
DEX: 104 (assuming merited) = 78 ACC
Ragnarok 95: 35 ACC
Total: 522

COR/WAR Hume:
Dagger Skill: 404 = 383 ACC
DEX: 104 (assuming merited) = 52 ACC
Total: 435

Difference: 87

If your hunter's roll isn't 11 + Job Bonus you're not even close. Even with 11 + Job Bonus you're still 22 ACC short.

[Afania]

DRK/WAR Hume:
GS Skill: 433 = 409 ACC
DEX: 104 (assuming merited) = 78 ACC
Ragnarok 95: 35 ACC
Total: 522

COR/WAR Hume:
Dagger Skill: 404 = 383 ACC
DEX: 104 (assuming merited) = 52 ACC
Total: 435

Difference: 87

If your hunter's roll isn't 11 + Job Bonus you're not even close. Even with 11 + Job Bonus you're still 22 ACC short.

You sound like I'm argueing that COR has higher acc than a rag DRK, obviously that wasn't my intention. And 22 acc short is easily make up with gears.

[Zagen]

You sound like I'm argueing that COR has higher acc than a rag DRK, obviously that wasn't my intention. And 22 acc short is easily make up with gears.
You act like DRK isn't going to be wearing ACC gear.

Edit: By my count a DRK in gear is rocking 57-58 ACC in gear on top of the stats already mentioned. Then there's the ACC from JAs that are DRK native 25 from Souleater and 20 from Diabolic Eye. That's an awful lot of ACC to be made up.

[Afania]

You act like DRK isn't going to be wearing ACC gear.



Except rag DRK doesn't have to sacrifice lots of TP dmg to make up for acc, while in the case of COR, any capped haste situations and no real danger from AoE, shooting is just slower than meleeing for TP gain if triple shot not up/didn't proc, and no dusty wing recharge. Pulling off some old parse, Rag DRK parsed about 92% acc(not sure what's his TP set looks like) in prov KI BC without acc song/roll, in the course of 3 BC 6 NM(so JA not up all the time).

[Zagen]

Except rag DRK doesn't have to sacrifice lots of TP dmg to make up for acc, while in the case of COR, any capped haste situations and no real danger from AoE, shooting is just slower than meleeing for TP gain if triple shot not up/didn't proc, and no dusty wing recharge. Pulling off some old parse, Rag DRK parsed about 92% acc(not sure what's his TP set looks like) in prov KI BC without acc song/roll, in the course of 3 BC 6 NM(so JA not up all the time).
I'm not saying melee TP isn't faster when you can get close enough to ACC cap. COR however isn't getting there without sushi and/or Hunter's Roll.

You have nothing showing COR's ACC in a situation without 2hr Madrigal which is giving you 67-70 ACC, even worse if you did have hunter's on yourself.

The math I showed has COR falling short when ACC is a concern when compared to a DRK which you mentioned being able to catch up to. Also add 5 ACC to my numbers because upon rereading your parse post that was a 99 Rag and I used a 95 in my numbers.

So enlighten me on what gear set a COR can use that will give it 84-85 ACC without completely ruining your haste from gear. I haven't found it, I highly doubt you will either which leaves my point of a melee COR works on trash, on anything else it gives up too much to be functional if you're unwilling to eat sushi.

[Afania]

I'm not saying melee TP isn't faster when you can get close enough to ACC cap. COR however isn't getting there without sushi and/or Hunter's Roll.

You have nothing showing COR's ACC in a situation without 2hr Madrigal which is giving you 67-70 ACC, even worse if you did have hunter's on yourself.

The math I showed has COR falling short when ACC is a concern when compared to a DRK which you mentioned being able to catch up to. Also add 5 ACC to my numbers because upon rereading your parse post that was a 99 Rag and I used a 95 in my numbers.

So enlighten me on what gear set a COR can use that will give it 84-85 ACC without completely ruining your haste from gear. I haven't found it, I highly doubt you will either which leaves my point of a melee COR works on trash, on anything else it gives up too much to be functional if you're unwilling to eat sushi.


Why do you insist that you HAVE to hit as much acc as DRK to cap acc?

According to DNC(since DNC is a job with same dagger skill as COR, although they have acc bonus job trait) spreadsheet:
Race: Hume
Target: Ig-Alima
Aggress off
Food: RCB(or any none acc food)
Song=march x2, no embrava, no acc song, no hunters
TP set(just randomly tossing some TP gear with acc, there could be better set exist I think): Khepri augment, Ziel charm, Hollow earring, Mars ring, Thaumas body/legs, Athos feet, AF3+2 hands etc. Total haste:26%

Acc without counting acc bonus job trait(since COR doesn't have it)
69.5%
This is lowest you can get when aggressor down, and didn't put hunters up.

Add aggressor:
82%

Add hunter:
Even without DEX merit,
84.5% if unlucky and no job proc. 92% on a No.6 hunter and no job proc. Capped if No.6 and job proc. Capped if No.4, job proc or not. Capped on any No.9 or up even without job proc, or any job proc hunters unless you rolled an unlucky.

Doesn't sound too bad? You have 1/3 of chance to hit cap even without RNG in pt with any none unlucky number. Put RNG in pt(since you already need 1 for proc/DD anyways), any hunter will make you cap it on Ig-Alima unless you hit unlucky. Worst case you get no RNG, job didn't proc, and an average number like No.6 still make you well over 90%, all without acc food.

Oh and I didn't add DEX merit, it's well over 70% with no food/roll/aggressor if you have DEX merit.

[Zagen]

You compared to DRK not me. It doesn't matter what job if you aren't parsing near cap without food you need to waste food which drops your potential and means you gear needs to be adjusted.

Just plugged in your set into the DNC sheet and I'm getting 58.5% before making acc bonus 0. Without acc bonus it's 41%

I used Coruscanti for main.

So um ya your numbers are off and I'm not sure what you did differently, but hey lets leave the spreadsheets alone and look at the math ourselves.

Ig-Alima stats:
Level: 120
Evasion: 540

COR stats:
Level: 99
ACC: 545 (420 Skill + 71 ACC Gear + 89 DEX Hume no Merits + 63 DEX Gear)

Hit Rate (%) = 75 + floor( (545 - 540)÷2 ) - 2×(120 - 99)
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + 6 - 42
Hit Rate = 39%

With Aggressor:
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + floor( (570 - 540)÷2 ) - 2×(120 - 99)
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + 15 - 42
Hit Rate = 48%

With Hunter's XI w/ Bonus:
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + floor( (610 - 540)÷2 ) - 2×(120 - 99)
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + 35 - 42
Hit Rate = 68%

With Aggressor + Hunter's XI w/ Bonus:
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + floor( (635 - 540)÷2 ) - 2×(120 - 99)
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + 47 - 42
Hit Rate = 80%

I don't know about you but 80% isn't acceptable to me.

[Afania]

You compared to DRK not me. It doesn't matter what job if you aren't parsing near cap without food you need to waste food which drops your potential and means you gear needs to be adjusted.

Just plugged in your set into the DNC sheet and I'm getting 58.5% before making acc bonus 0. Without acc bonus it's 41%

I used Coruscanti for main.

So um ya your numbers are off and I'm not sure what you did differently, but hey lets leave the spreadsheets alone and look at the math ourselves.

Ig-Alima stats:
Level: 120
Evasion: 540

COR stats:
Level: 99
ACC: 545 (420 Skill + 71 ACC Gear + 89 DEX Hume no Merits + 63 DEX Gear)

Hit Rate (%) = 75 + floor( (545 - 540)÷2 ) - 2×(120 - 99)
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + 6 - 42
Hit Rate = 39%

With Aggressor:
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + floor( (570 - 540)÷2 ) - 2×(120 - 99)
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + 15 - 42
Hit Rate = 48%

With Hunter's XI w/ Bonus:
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + floor( (610 - 540)÷2 ) - 2×(120 - 99)
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + 35 - 42
Hit Rate = 68%

With Aggressor + Hunter's XI w/ Bonus:
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + floor( (635 - 540)÷2 ) - 2×(120 - 99)
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + 47 - 42
Hit Rate = 80%

I don't know about you but 80% isn't acceptable to me.

You're getting different number because you didn't turn on VW and temp? VW on/off makes a huge difference due to all the temps. You can also setup atmacite for extra acc.

Also it wasn't 80%, it was way over 80% with any none unlucky hunter as long as you put RNG in DD pt(you already should). And I didn't even setup Ig-Alima atma for extra haste/DEX and acc.

[Zagen]

You're getting different number because you didn't turn on VW and temp? VW on/off makes a huge difference due to all the temps. You can also setup atmacite for extra acc.

Also it wasn't 80%, it was way over 80% with any none unlucky hunter as long as you put RNG in DD pt(you already should). And I didn't even setup Ig-Alima atma for extra haste/DEX and acc.

I did miss those thanks, didn't realize I never set those up for DNC, though thinking about it makes sense since I don't bring it to VW. I also wouldn't factor atmacite as they could change and should be focused on your WS damage unless you think your melee damage for 5-30~ is gonna magically turn into 200+. Now there would be some bleed over depending if you used atmacite that happen to have DEX or ACC but for simplicity's sake I'll ignore them.

With Stalwart's + Braver's
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + floor( (602 - 540)÷2 ) - 2×(120 - 99)
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + 31 - 42
Hit Rate = 64%

With Stalwart's + Braver's + Aggressor:
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + floor( (627 - 540)÷2 ) - 2×(120 - 99)
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + 43 - 42
Hit Rate = 76%

With Stalwart's + Braver's + Hunter's XI w/ Bonus:
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + floor( (677 - 540)÷2 ) - 2×(120 - 99)
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + 68 - 42
Hit Rate = 95% (capped from 101%)

I bolded the math I'd consider "applicable". The reason I say this is because if you're banking on the melee for TP and you give your DDs Fighter's or Tactician you as a "melee for TP" COR would benefit from those greater than Hunter's if only you could decently hit the damn thing.

So with Stalwart's + Hunter's a COR can manage to cap your ACC in VW on just about anything (well maybe not Watcher but I don't think it's stats are that much worse than Ig). I don't agree with the idea of using hunter's over something else but to each his/her own.

So pretty much as long as you're keeping up Stalwart's full time (I think this should always be true) and have Hunter's Roll up or sushi you can hit acc cap... So my point still stands lol.

Disclaimer for anyone else reading, these numbers assume your gear is top notch (despite Afania's "thrown together" comment earlier), in other words attempting this on higher end VW as someone who's still working on building their sets your numbers likely won't come close.

Looking into the future expansion as it's supposed to cater to end gamers I hope they keep giving us temps lol.

[Afania]

I did miss those thanks, didn't realize I never set those up for DNC, though thinking about it makes sense since I don't bring it to VW. I also wouldn't factor atmacite as they could change and should be focused on your WS damage unless you think your melee damage for 5-30~ is gonna magically turn into 200+. Now there would be some bleed over depending if you used atmacite that happen to have DEX or ACC but for simplicity's sake I'll ignore them.


Ig-Alima atmacite is already the best last stand atmacite, DEX and acc is just icing on the cake. It's not like I just mention it out of nowhere just so that I can cap acc XD

[Zagen]

Ig-Alima atmacite is already the best last stand atmacite, DEX and acc is just icing on the cake. It's not like I just mention it out of nowhere just so that I can cap acc XD

That adds an epic 12-13 acc depending on rounding for DEX...

With Stalwart's + Braver's + Aggressor + Ig-Alima Atmacite capped:
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + floor( (640 - 540)÷2 ) - 2×(120 - 99)
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + 50 - 42
Hit Rate = 83%

Still requires Sushi or Hunter's Roll.

Edit: I tried figuring out RACC and when using the same formulas COR would pretty much have floored RACC against Ig-Alima. That just doesn't sound right. Afania I checked your parse and didn't see RACC tracked I was wondering if you had the full parse to see the difference in ACC and RACC

[Afania]

That adds an epic 12-13 acc depending on rounding for DEX...

With Stalwart's + Braver's + Aggressor + Ig-Alima Atmacite capped:
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + floor( (640 - 540)÷2 ) - 2×(120 - 99)
Hit Rate (%) = 75 + 50 - 42
Hit Rate = 83%

Still requires Sushi or Hunter's Roll.

Edit: I tried figuring out RACC and when using the same formulas COR would pretty much have floored RACC against Ig-Alima. That just doesn't sound right. Afania I checked your parse and didn't see RACC tracked I was wondering if you had the full parse to see the difference in ACC and RACC

I didn't shoot for TP at that time, that's why you didn't see ranged acc XD. But I usually have higher racc than melee acc for TP I think. Mainly cuz I eat pot-au-feu for food, have 12 AGI merit, and have double racc+ 16 ring, which doesn't come for melee slot. Other slot can also get high racc gears pretty easily, such as head/body/legs. According to old parse I'm usually capped when I /ra in prov, but I have to dig them out to double check.

[Seha]

I thought the thread was about wielding guns, disappoint.

[Oakrest]

Sure and then they can give one handed weapons that are more useful than Staves.

A corsair (read: pirate) with a wizards' staff is ridiculous IMO.

[Blah]

I thought the thread was about wielding guns, disappoint.

Me too I could've sworn pirates could dual-wield guns why the heck aren't corsairs able to?

[L0IRE]

Don't see many pirates out there dual weilding and I don't see anything in the FFXI lore for it. If you wanna dual weild sub /NIN or /DNC, they're both acceptable subjobs for a COR as they come with other benefits, though obviously people prefer COR for buffs and WS's making /SAM useful, but I'm all for people adopting their own play styles.

played a pirate MMO as well as in many pirate movies...dual wielding a cutlass or scimitar, but true they could just sub /NIN

[Magnus]

I actually would rather see a treasure hunter added to COR than dual wield. It makes little sense to me that RNG got bounty shot?.. seemed more of a pirate themed ability to me.

Treasure hunter makes more sense to me than dual wield.

[Blah]

Well heck why not go all out and ask for dual-wield (guns) treasure hunter AND bounty shot? No? Too greedy?