Let's talk Summoner!

[jeffanddane]

Here are a few things that could be implemented that wouldn't make smn over powered

BP- Timer reduction. I belive the hard cap should be set to 30-45 seconds putting our ability to DD and buff above average but not outshine the main buffers/DD's

If not lower the BP time then introduce more gear that gives - delay time. Gear giving BP Delay - would be amazing since you would still have to work for it. And would help with what i said above.

Make our wards stronger and duriations longer. Many of our wards have gotten obsolete. I think maybe by making our wards behave such as avatars favor as far as avatar favor is calculated by summoning skill. For instance blinkga no one really needs it, if you want shadows just /nin maybe have this job ability stack with utsu? There are many other abilities but i am not going to go over them. Alot of the buffs still reflect the lvls they were earned and need a solid update.

I dont know if this method would work but I think it would be awesome
1.Path: Rage= Blood Pact delay - all summons gain a damage bonus to blood pact: rage also gains bonus in ACC,ATT,MAB, and MACC to avatar while Path:Rage is in effect blood pact: ward is weakened and Blood Pact: ward delay is +
2.Path: Ward= All buffs from blood pact: wards are enchanced, duriation, potency and area of effect are enchanced. More could be added to this i am just not sure what i will leave the ??? to you guys. And same thing Rage is weakened and delay is +.

Adding additonal pets such as healing pets. I would love to see a new healing pet so that way we could have a substitute in a bad situation. Say the whm dies well then the smns can rip out a healing pet. But make this pet diffrent from the other with lessened BP times and just a whole new set of rules to keep a party/ alliance alive.

I would love to see more suggestions from other users. SE watchs these forums so if we can throw out ideas they may incorporate them;)

[Syntex]

Here are a few things that could be implemented that wouldn't make smn over powered

BP- Timer reduction. I belive the hard cap should be set to 30-45 seconds putting our ability to DD and buff above average but not outshine the main buffers/DD's

Why?

Current gear allows for -29 seconds off bloodpacts and a properly geared summoner can crank out 4k+ damage BP's with no hate on the SMN aside from JA use which is negligible. Giving 30-45 seconds would make it spammable for a fraction of the mp of a BLM with no hate?

We already have god mode its called brew.



If not lower the BP time then introduce more gear that gives - delay time. Gear giving BP Delay - would be amazing since you would still have to work for it. And would help with what i said above.

Yea its called working for what already exists.

-2 SMN AF2 Legs
-2 SMN AF2 Feet
-2 SMN AF2 Hands
-5 YYRobe
-4 Accord Hat
-1 Caller's Earring
-3 Tiresias' Cape
-10 Magian Staff of element choice

Thats a total of -29 seconds and this isn't counting any additional -BP gear in the 90-99 stretch. I think it's fine.



Make our wards stronger and duriations longer. Many of our wards have gotten obsolete. I think maybe by making our wards behave such as avatars favor as far as avatar favor is calculated by summoning skill. For instance blinkga no one really needs it, if you want shadows just /nin maybe have this job ability stack with utsu? There are many other abilities but i am not going to go over them. Alot of the buffs still reflect the lvls they were earned and need a solid update.

Summoning magic already affects buff duration. Hastega has a 5 minute duration(2 min longer) if you have enough summoning magic. Earthen Ward could use some tweaking to be based on skill and not levelx2+50 which is a static 230 at 90 which is laughable. I do agree something need an update but even if it was updated would you use Ice Spikes or Enthunder wards? Probably not. Also blink is fine.



I dont know if this method would work but I think it would be awesome
1.Path: Rage= Blood Pact delay - all summons gain a damage bonus to blood pact: rage also gains bonus in ACC,ATT,MAB, and MACC to avatar while Path:Rage is in effect blood pact: ward is weakened and Blood Pact: ward delay is +
2.Path: Ward= All buffs from blood pact: wards are enchanced, duriation, potency and area of effect are enchanced. More could be added to this i am just not sure what i will leave the ??? to you guys. And same thing Rage is weakened and delay is +.

It's an idea but I doubt it will happen. SMN is more of a heavy DD with some support, your suggestions is turning it into a support role and to be honest we all do enough healing on SMN to not be burdened to do it more. Also avatars already receive a bonus to BP:Rage through TP affecting their damage along with merits giving 40tp per merit bonus and the pants granting an additional 100tp for damage calculations.



Adding additonal pets such as healing pets. I would love to see a new healing pet so that way we could have a substitute in a bad situation. Say the whm dies well then the smns can rip out a healing pet. But make this pet diffrent from the other with lessened BP times and just a whole new set of rules to keep a party/ alliance alive.

This isn't necessary(see comment about SMN being a DD above) as that isn't our role. What should be done though is learning how to properly control a Light Spirit. It is possible to get the recast time for spells down to 13 seconds per helpful spell which is pretty good if you ask me and if used properly can be more helpful then waiting on BP timers and needing MP.



I would love to see more suggestions from other users. SE watchs these forums so if we can throw out ideas they may incorporate them;)

Well I think overall SMN is fine other then some tweaking of BP:Wards. The class is overall strong and will only get better with time. People just need to realize the potential of the class and when they do, realize we don't need buffs to be awesome because we already are.

[Septimus]

Why?

Current gear allows for -29 seconds off bloodpacts and a properly geared summoner can crank out 4k+ damage BP's with no hate on the SMN aside from JA use which is negligible. Giving 30-45 seconds would make it spammable for a fraction of the mp of a BLM with no hate?

Maybe I am missing your point, but blood pact ability delay is capped at 15 seconds.

[Syntex]

Maybe I am missing your point, but blood pact ability delay is capped at 15 seconds.

Oh is it?

I currently only have enough for -12 or so and just speculated that with as much gear as possible it would be possible to hit that number.

That sucks :(

[Septimus]

Oh is it?

I currently only have enough for -12 or so and just speculated that with as much gear as possible it would be possible to hit that number.

That sucks :(

Yup, it would be nice if we could take Blood Pacts down to 30 seconds, but 45 seconds is the limit.

[Malamasala]

Current gear allows for -29 seconds off bloodpacts and a properly geared summoner can crank out 4k+ damage BP's with no hate on the SMN aside from JA use which is negligible. Giving 30-45 seconds would make it spammable for a fraction of the mp of a BLM with no hate?

Last I checked SMN pays MP. Last I checked WAR dishes out 2k x 20 mobs each 10 seconds. Last I checked dead monsters do not have hate on you.

Nah, I'd say current WAR is at least 8 times stronger than Summoner, and you'd have to lower it to 10 seconds recasts, 0 MP cost, to even compete in how overpowered Summoner is compared to a Warrior.

[Papesse]

You forget Astral Flow. It's 3 times stronger than Fell Cleaves, doesn't produce Ruby Light (if you are speaking of Abyssea) and can kill/OS more mobs easily/faster.

[Feliciaa]

While SMN's 2hr is very nice I think the job should have more going on besides being a 2hr machine. Maybe lowering the BP base timer to 45 seconds and allow us to BP every 30 seconds with the right gear would be a great change. Or SE could put Ward BPs on some kind of charge system so we can at least stack our buffs faster.

IMO. SMN has potential to be a very good support/DD but the current system makes our ability to adapt to situations very poor and has us locked in a "We have all the important jobs filled so I guess you can come SMN for tonight's event".

[jeffanddane]

Why?

Current gear allows for -29 seconds off bloodpacts and a properly geared summoner can crank out 4k+ damage BP's with no hate on the SMN aside from JA use which is negligible. Giving 30-45 seconds would make it spammable for a fraction of the mp of a BLM with no hate?

Hard cap is 1 min I have all the gear that gets you down to 45 seconds.And not only that even if it were cut down to 30-45 second we are the job that takes the most mp out of the all. Pet perp and have to use alot of mp on BP's rages/wards. We don't have infinite mp so we would still be limited because of huge BP cost's. Most good summoners know that we will never and i mean never have enough mp outside abyssea.






We already have god mode its called brew.
Yea its called working for what already exists.

-2 SMN AF2 Legs
-2 SMN AF2 Feet
-2 SMN AF2 Hands
-5 YYRobe
-4 Accord Hat
-1 Caller's Earring
-3 Tiresias' Cape
-10 Magian Staff of element choice

Thats a total of -29 seconds and this isn't counting any additional -BP gear in the 90-99 stretch. I think it's fine.
SMN Brewing is weak lol. I seen it plenty of times and its just sad compared to other jobs. Brew does not extend to pets which is complete crap.




Summoning magic already affects buff duration. Hastega has a 5 minute duration(2 min longer) if you have enough summoning magic. Earthen Ward could use some tweaking to be based on skill and not levelx2+50 which is a static 230 at 90 which is laughable. I do agree something need an update but even if it was updated would you use Ice Spikes or Enthunder wards? Probably not. Also blink is fine.
Since I like having maximum potential on my SMN I did used to use enthunder for added damage on my max merited staff skill. Now I use enfire because it hits for 35-40 extra dmg per hit its more like enfire II. While it holds true some wards are effected by SMN magic skill alot arn't. Examples Crimson Howl is only 8% attack rate, blink is fine but sub job one is better to use because 1 doesn't take as long 2 it don't waste a BP Ward charge, 3 Everyone who is going to be hit usually is /nin, ice spikes is pathetic doesn't do enough damage when hit, lighting armor stuns close to nothing, our heals for extra support are on a 45-1min delay and heals for practically nothing. etc etc




It's an idea but I doubt it will happen. SMN is more of a heavy DD with some support, your suggestions is turning it into a support role and to be honest we all do enough healing on SMN to not be burdened to do it more. Also avatars already receive a bonus to BP:Rage through TP affecting their damage along with merits giving 40tp per merit bonus and the pants granting an additional 100tp for damage calculations.
Sorry SMN is not a heavy DD we may do 3-4k+ but this is not heavy DD my friend this is called spike damage. A SAM could easily conqure this,same for WAR,BLM,DRK,MNK. Where a huge number I see a small. For example my lvl 90 MNK. I hit for about 100/200 a hit 300+ on crits (in abyssea) outside 100/200 crits. Now in abyssea i hit for those about every 30-45 second and depending on my double attack + triple attack mods from atmas and sub job I lay waste to my SMN and thats just on punching I am not even factoring in my 2k+ ws's. I am sorry a well geared melee job or blm or sch can totally out DD a SMN in a heart beat. And if anything this idea would make a great way for SMN to nuke harder faster or be a great support.





This isn't necessary(see comment about SMN being a DD above) as that isn't our role. What should be done though is learning how to properly control a Light Spirit. It is possible to get the recast time for spells down to 13 seconds per helpful spell which is pretty good if you ask me and if used properly can be more helpful then waiting on BP timers and needing MP.
Cast invis point your light spirit at party let the fun begin. For one spirits are to unreliable to main heal. My light spirit has got me out of many binds in healing, but also have put me in many tight spots from casting stuped like protect when I am dieing. Its to unreliable to help in an emergency situation.



With the tweaks I mentioned SMN could be amazing without being over powerd.

[Papesse]

I don't know how well geared is your Smn or if you play it at all now but asking for longer buffs duration is absurd. My Hastega alone lasts for 5:30 min (the duration can exceed 5 min, wiki is wrong on this).
It's also absurd saying Smn brewing is weak when we have Cataclysm...


Sorry SMN is not a heavy DD we may do 3-4k+ but this is not heavy DD my friend this is called spike damage. A SAM could easily conqure this,same for WAR,BLM,DRK,MNK. Where a huge number I see a small. For example my lvl 90 MNK. I hit for about 100/200 a hit 300+ on crits (in abyssea) outside 100/200 crits. Now in abyssea i hit for those about every 30-45 second and depending on my double attack + triple attack mods from atmas and sub job I lay waste to my SMN and thats just on punching I am not even factoring in my 2k+ ws's. I am sorry a well geared melee job or blm or sch can totally out DD a SMN in a heart beat. And if anything this idea would make a great way for SMN to nuke harder faster or be a great support.

Sorry but my Smn has never been the weak/useless DD you are describing while running a Parser. Does that's means my Kannagi Nin, Sam (who sadly can't spam Gekkos for 9k), War and Blm friends sucks even if they have the best gear available? I don't think so. IMO the main default of the job is it need much work and investissements than others to shine but it doesn't mean that it is an impossible task. Exemple : Ifrit's Favor can be potentially stronger than Fighter's Roll but it need a high amount of Smn skill and the AF3+2 Head...

[Dallas]

Ifrit's Favor can be potentially stronger than Fighter's Roll but it need a high amount of Smn skill and the AF3+2 Head...

This number is blank on wiki:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ifrit%27s_Favor

How high does it go now?

[jeffanddane]

I don't know how well geared is your Smn or if you play it at all now but asking for longer buffs duration is absurd. My Hastega alone lasts for 5:30 min (the duration can exceed 5 min, wiki is wrong on this).
It's also absurd saying Smn brewing is weak when we have Cataclysm...

I


Sorry but my Smn has never been the weak/useless DD you are describing while running a Parser. Does that's means my Kannagi Nin, Sam (who sadly can't spam Gekkos for 9k), War and Blm friends sucks even if they have the best gear available? I don't think so. IMO the main default of the job is it need much work and investissements than others to shine but it doesn't mean that it is an impossible task. Exemple : Ifrit's Favor can be potentially stronger than Fighter's Roll but it need a high amount of Smn skill and the AF3+2 Head...

Im sorry but I am a very well geared summoner with full AFV3 +1 and pieces of +2. We are out DDed are we worthless no . . . .With favor on our pets are even worse and they don't even get there own favor. I am sorry my friend. . . . and even meleeing as smn/sam i cant keep up and my dmg is pretty good /sam for just the smn part of it not my pet. SMN is the most mediocre DD job in FFXI. Its unstable and it is all over the place. . . We are not good buffers. . . we are beaten by most other DD's when thorugh out the FF series SMN are AOE godsends. . . . . I am not sure about the durations but I know our effects need to be enhanced. And like mentioned before SMN is an illusionist DD you see that huge DMG and its like wow. . . . but melees and mage jobs can do that + the melee in between/next spell on the list. And with enimity minus equips/ spells like pax . . . . yeah they can definitely out DD us.

[Dallas]

Found it! 447 skill tested here:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Talk:Avatar's_Favor

200 swings, 49 DA : 24.5% DA

147 swings, 35 DA : 23.8% DA

Assuming this is calculated correctly, there is nothing wrong with our buffs. You can enfire, 8% attack, and 24% DA the whole PT. That's considerably better than Hastega.

[Papesse]

You have your own opinion Jeffanddane and I have the mine aswell. I don't really know what else to say.

I agree Dallas, it's a very good combinaison even if we have to sacrifice our Rages pacts to make it work. Which is NOT that terrible in some situations (if we have 3~4 melees in the party, especially thf, nin, mnk) and Smn can heal just fine now.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Found it! 447 skill tested here:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Talk:Avatar's_Favor

200 swings, 49 DA : 24.5% DA

147 swings, 35 DA : 23.8% DA

Assuming this is calculated correctly, there is nothing wrong with our buffs. You can enfire, 8% attack, and 24% DA the whole PT. That's considerably better than Hastega.

If someone else/you yourself are casting haste sure.

[Dallas]

You can Haste with /WHM, so next excuse please! ;)

[Neisan_Quetz]

/RDM, /SCH for some odd reason. (This applies to 90 cap)