Legion, current playerbase and endgame content

[Afania]

It seems that a lot of ppl been talking about Campaign/VW/Nyzul issue, but not a lot talk about Legion issue. So I decided to brought it up. Below are just some of my opinion, feel free to point out if there are anything I do wrong that I can fix to solve the problem.

I don't know about JP community nor other server, but atm it's extremely hard to make an ally of 18 ppl(nor 36 of course) for legion hall of Mul full clear run.

I don't mind having a hard and challenging event to do, but if even making a full ally to even start the event is hard, then this problem should be solved first.

And there are a few possible reasons.

1.Legion is an event that actually require experienced ppl, and possibly tweak their gear set/merit/play style just for this event, so they know what to do and how to avoid mistake. Some of the more hardcore/experienced/elite player I know of, recently either quit for FF14/GW2, or just stopped doing it after got everything from it.

It's extremely hard to find rep for this event too, since new member need to start learning everything again, and possibly build legion specific gear set for their jobs. Majority of player isn't interested in spending weeks or months to get certain gear for one of the job just so that they can do 1 event. Majority of player isn't interested in doing an event with high chance of failing. Majority of players would rather do Nyzul, dyna, salvage, VW where you have less chance of failing nor got into a shitty group.

2. The fact that you need to tweak your gear set/merit/play style just for this event, kinda shut off half of the ppl interested in this event when it's already not very popular. Say if I need a SCH, out of all the SCHs I know probably only a few has right skill level for stuns/embrava, and even lower % semi interested in legion, and out of all the SCH interested in legion with right skill set, probably none of them has stun macc set or comfortable with stun position.

3. This event also needlessly shut off many jobs/weapons on the job list. And it really has nothing to do with whether you're hardcore/elite or not.

For example, currently it's known that Mul wave 2 has enemy crit-hit %- trait. This is a needless penalty for any crit-hit WS DD such as Ukon WAR/Vere MNK. On top of all the NM with high evasion and def, also pretty much been saying "Ragnarok or gtfo".

Rag has such advantage over other weapons in Mul due to WAR 2hr and high accuracy, that it's not really fair. Why would none-rag DD have to suffer such large gap in terms of DD ability?

Now you're probably going to say, "Just build a Rag!" As stated before, majority of player isn't interested in building a relic just for 1 event.

Now you're probably going to argue, "Why are you complaining about min-maxing in MMO? You're the one who choose to use optimal setup first!" "DD job will have hierarchy no matter what!"

But that's really due to the structure of legion hall of Mul.

If I can't find a bunch of Rag DDs for VW, I can still use other DDs, the difference is just clear it in 2 min or clear in 5 min.

This applies to Nyzul. If I can't find most optimal setup, I can still aim for F80 clear for 25 times. Also plenty of groups been using none optimal jobs and get F100 clears.

In order to get Mul wave 3 clear, you need to deal over 1 million damage in 30 min with 5 DD, and probably WAR 2hr reso zerg. With the time so limited, there are very little room to make mistake, only thing you can rely on is perfect stuns/PD and good dmg.

If you don't clear wave 3 NM, you won't get worthwhile drop(nobody is interested in wave 1 2 drop anymore except Gallu/rex drops). So it's a hit or miss, that the room to use sub-optimal setup is way less than VW/Nyzul etc. If you didn't clear Rex, you won't see Rex drop, so 1 million+ dmg or gtfo.


So, when this is an event that only small % of playerbase is interested in it, and small % of player has right job, and even smaller % of ppl has right gear for their right job or willing to make right gear for legion job just for legion, it got very hard to make an ally with high winning chance for it. And 36 player ally isn't even common at all in NA/EU playerbase.

My server has about 1.1k~1.3k players on NA prime time, which was much lower than last year. I feel at this point of time, NA playerbase is just too small to have this sort of elite/hardcore event that requires 18+ ppl. And if you're EU playerbase or even something like GMT+3, good luck finding a group at all.

This event needs to be more friendly to more players. I'm not asking it to get a nerf with displacer, nor asking it to be easier. I'm asking it to be more accessable to more players, the whether they clear or not is depend on them.

So I'm going to make following suggestions:

1. Remove enemy crit-hit rate- trait on wave 2, lower all NM's evasion, defense and maybe their level too. This should close the gap between rag and other weapon DDs. High evasion/defense and crit-hit rate- trait is just needless penalty on many jobs/weapons.

2. Lower stun resist on Mantis. Mantis death prophet easily ruin a run. And requiring a full macc set for stun to land is just shutting half of the SCH out of the door since it's not needed that much in other events. This should also apply to DD too. You shouldn't need to spend week/months to prepare certain gear set for just 1 event, you should be able to jump in with what you have now. The success of an event should determine on pt organization, communication and skill, instead of relying on having to make certain gear set just for it. If you can stun fast enough, then you can stun it and vice versa.

3. Make wave 3 NMs, Gallu+rex, pop on wave 1 or 2. Or make wave 1 or 2 mobs drop Gallu/rex drops.

Note that I understand the point of legion is "the more you kill the better reward". So dev can make wave 1 or 2 Gallu rex drop has very low drop rate, and the higher wave you reach, the higher drop rate.

Again, this should close the gap a bit and less "Rag WAR or gtfo". A pt with 5x relic SAM or MNK should have at least a bit higher chance to see rex drop like a pt of 5x rag DRK WAR.

Reward wise, legion is actually pretty balanced IMO. The fact that Gallu/Rex on wave 3 has 100% drop slot pretty much offers good reward for more effort. However, this event needs to be more accessable to more players with different job, without having to prepare certain gear/another job for it. Needing to build certain relic/lv certain job just to do 1 event does not make the event more challenging. A lot of ppl I know of suddenly jump to "Ace DD" after their Rag done, without having anything special but just Rag. Before their Rag they're not even close on another Relic/empy DD.


4. Make all the future hardcore endgame content aim for 6~10 dedicated players, but no higher than 12. Ideally only need 6. It may not be that hard to make 18 or 36 ally for JP players, but it's hard for NA players. And probably very hard for EU, near impossible for other regions.

If possible, make 6 player version legion too ._.

Hardcore endgame content means only small % of playerbase can do, and interested in doing, due to higher chance of failure, more skill/gear requirement and so on. FFXI atm already don't have a lot of players, making it requiring 18 hardcore ppl is a pain in the ass.

[wish12oz]

I have some problems with your statements, mainly that you think Rex and Gallu have the good drops.

While it's true they drop body abjurations and meteor/arise, the truth is you cap out on that stuff very, very fast. The good drops are L feet, L head, C feet, Ormulo Ingot and Duplus grip. And if you have any amount of people that want any 1 of those items, I assure you that all your mules will have meteor, arise and body abjurations before you finish those drops.

IMO there isn't anything really wrong with Legion in the way the event is executed, even the random hate the Ironclad has that always results in people dieing. It's hard to build a group for it because most people are just bad, and it's a hard event. The -crit trait isn't really a big deal either, even though I have a 99 Ukon and am sad I am not the awesomest DD ever for this event like all the others. Gallu and Rex spawning in the middle of other waves is the worst idea I've ever heard for a change that could occur for this event. Wave 2 are the important mobs, and theyre annoying enough as it is.

That said, I do think SE should do something to increase interest in the event. And by that, I mean make the items better. even small increases to the potential of the items would help generate huge interest in the event. All theyd need to do really is make the augments on the abjuration stuff better for the pieces no one cares about, like Hugin pants, and leave the ones alone that are good, like Hugin shoes. Then take all the decent items, and make them better. Give Fulad-Zereh 5% DA instead of 3, make Duplus Grip 4% DA instead of 3, make the weapons actually worth using so people would want them by increasing their damage, give Gunmans gambison a good snapshot value, etc. It wouldn't be hard at all and it would greatly increase interest in the event, thus making it easier to find people to do it with.

Also: SovietSpaceDogs is currently looking to do 36 person Mul instead of 18, if you're on Odin and would like to join, send me a tell in game and we can discuss what jobs we're looking for.

[detlef]

Right now my LS finds itself in the in-between position of full clearing regular chambers with relative ease while not being able to beat Mul (yet). I'd like to see a higher drop rate on the regular hall wave 2 equipment drops, abjurations, and synthesis materials.

[Afania]

I have some problems with your statements, mainly that you think Rex and Gallu have the good drops.

While it's true they drop body abjurations and meteor/arise, the truth is you cap out on that stuff very, very fast. The good drops are L feet, L head, C feet, Ormulo Ingot and Duplus grip. And if you have any amount of people that want any 1 of those items, I assure you that all your mules will have meteor, arise and body abjurations before you finish those drops.

IMO there isn't anything really wrong with Legion in the way the event is executed, even the random hate the Ironclad has that always results in people dieing. It's hard to build a group for it because most people are just bad, and it's a hard event. The -crit trait isn't really a big deal either, even though I have a 99 Ukon and am sad I am not the awesomest DD ever for this event like all the others. Gallu and Rex spawning in the middle of other waves is the worst idea I've ever heard for a change that could occur for this event. Wave 2 are the important mobs, and theyre annoying enough as it is.

That said, I do think SE should do something to increase interest in the event. And by that, I mean make the items better. even small increases to the potential of the items would help generate huge interest in the event. All theyd need to do really is make the augments on the abjuration stuff better for the pieces no one cares about, like Hugin pants, and leave the ones alone that are good, like Hugin shoes. Then take all the decent items, and make them better. Give Fulad-Zereh 5% DA instead of 3, make Duplus Grip 4% DA instead of 3, make the weapons actually worth using so people would want them by increasing their damage, give Gunmans gambison a good snapshot value, etc. It wouldn't be hard at all and it would greatly increase interest in the event, thus making it easier to find people to do it with.

Also: SovietSpaceDogs is currently looking to do 36 person Mul instead of 18, if you're on Odin and would like to join, send me a tell in game and we can discuss what jobs we're looking for.

Legion drop isn't bad, and gallu/rex drop actually worth quite some gil if you can manage to kill both every time.(although meteor/arise/honor price been dropping recently). Also whether gallu/rex drop is good or not is depend on job really, personally I can't even find enough people for Mul if I even want Gallu/rex clear, let alone getting Gallu/Rex drops. The problem is some of the preparations for their job shut off half of the players that may be interested.

Me: I'm looking for people for legion, wanna join?

Player A: Need a DD? I have MNK with 90 Vere.

*Takes the MNK to legion and see him parse a lot lower than a 95 Rag owner lower acc too*

Player B: Need a DD? I have 90 Ukon.

Me(Who learned a lesson): Legion mob has high acc, MAKE SURE YOU BRING ACC SWAP

*Takes him to legion and see him still parse lower than a 95 Rag*

Player C: Need a SCH? I have a SCH with 470 enhancing.

Me: Do you have a macc stun set and Impact?

Player C: No, and magic skill not capped ;(

Me: Stun going to get resist like this, gogo build a Rag and go work on macc set

Player A B C: Sorry I'm out, gl on your event and cya!


I've met plenty of players like A B C, they're interested in it, but they're not going to spend weeks and months to work on one of their job(out of many) just to do this event. There are certainly many ppl interested in it, but the requirement for it just shut the door.
You said it's hard to build a group because "most of the players are bad", but having to get X gear(and in the case of the DD, a relic!) just to have proper performance in 1 event isn't reasonable, considering it takes quite a large of time to build X gear set/weapon. Some of the players certainly knows how to play the job or follow orders. But as soon as they need to get X gear Y weapon just to join the event and have decent win rate, they'd rather not join and do other event that's even less productive. It's more about most players aren't legion job main to devote all their time on, rather than most players are bad. There are many players actually has decent skill and understanding of their job and not bad at all, doesn't mean they'll spend the time and effort to prepare for legion job when they're just mostly logging on for fun.

Now that GW2 is out and FFXIV ARR about to release soon, many older players left FFXI for those games. I know many player doesn't log on anymore and just stays in 14 all day, and it's getting very frustrating for someone who runs LS legion event to gather 18/18 for Mul. When I try to recruit new players, that's the above problem I'd face. I do legion with 2 different LS, both LS haven't been able to find 18/18 for weeks.

It's also affecting economy, staghorn coral is 3~5M each on my server and going up everyday.

Mantis stun resist needs to be lowered, so does NM evasion and enemy crit-hit- %. This event shouldn't require certain gear to do properly when those gears aren't needed anywhere else. Whether you win or not should be determined on other factor, not having a Rag army. I don't have problem finding DD and SCH for VW and Nyzul, why'd ppl have to face problem to find DD and SCH for legion?

[Arcon]

Legion drop isn't bad, and gallu/rex drop actually worth quite some gil if you can manage to kill both every time.(although meteor/arise/honor price been dropping recently). Also whether gallu/rex drop is good or not is depend on job really, personally I can't even find enough people for Mul if I even want Gallu/rex clear, let alone getting Gallu/Rex drops. The problem is some of the preparations for their job shut off half of the players that may be interested.

The problem is that Gallu/Botulus drops have a very high drop rate, compared to T2 mobs. And once you have a decent static group and can clear content better and faster, you will get a lot more drops from them than any other mob in Legion, even more so if you can clear both NMs. We got three Meteors in two runs last Sunday, for example. I don't even remember how many Meteor/Arise scrolls we got in total, but we haven't even seen a single Duplus Grip in all that time, and everyone and their mother wants one. That is the true problem with the drop distribution right now.


Me: I'm looking for people for legion, wanna join?

Player A: Need a DD? I have MNK with 90 Vere.

*Takes the MNK to legion and see him parse a lot lower than a 95 Rag owner lower acc too*

Player B: Need a DD? I have 90 Ukon.

Me(Who learned a lesson): Legion mob has high acc, MAKE SURE YOU BRING ACC SWAP

*Takes him to legion and see him still parse lower than a 95 Rag*

Player C: Need a SCH? I have a SCH with 470 enhancing.

Me: Do you have a macc stun set and Impact?

Player C: No, and magic skill not capped ;(

Me: Stun going to get resist like this, gogo build a Rag and go work on macc set

Player A B C: Sorry I'm out, gl on your event and cya!

While this is a legitimate concern, Legion is simply not designed to work this way. It was meant to be cleared with a familiar group of friends, who will stick around and work together to improve at the event and eventually clear it. This pretty much means LS events, possibly with strangers on less demanding jobs to fill in the gaps. And you don't need a full roster of Ragnarok DDs to clear it, as long as they're still good. It just happens to be a great weapon, even outside of this. We've won Mul several times without a Ragnarok DD.

As I said, it's still a valid concern, some people simply prefer the casual nature of events they've got accustomed to through Abyssea and Voidwatch. But it was precisely the LS activities that I personally missed during that era. Sure, you could still do VW with your LS (and we did/do, to get people clears), but you wouldn't want to spam a NM countless times with people you know don't need anything from it, especially if there's no need for it. Due to how the Voidwatch drop distribution works it's easy to find people to do it with, because everyone knows they'll get their own chest. This does not apply to any other event, which is why people generally hesitate to team up with strangers for those.

If anything, I'd complain that the overall difficulty is too hard to be done by a majority of players. It's simply not very accessible to most people who would actually want to do it. That's why I liked the idea of having different difficulty settings available for it. The critical hit rate penalty sucks, but in most cases it won't make or break a run compared to all the other things going on (high Evasion/Defense, resistance to Stun, spammy AoE moves, including AoE death, etc.). I wouldn't want to see what this looks like with Perfect Defense and Embrava nerfed. That will be a much bigger drawback than the critical hit rate penalty ever was. Just have to hope they adjust the event before those nerfs.

[wish12oz]

My LS has beaten Rex+Gallu with a bunch of Ukons, and Mul T2+T3 is the only place the -crit trait exists. You dont have to have Ragnaroks, its just that a bunch of WARs with Ragnarok will do the most damage during the event.

The mantis is obnoxious, and generally results in killing people, but I would hate for them to take that out, as thats the sort of thing that sets good groups apart from bad groups. Having melees who know not to point it at mages and not stand together, so that only 1-2 die, then being able to recover from deaths and still win. It doesn't always work out in your favor, but thats half the fun I think. Steam rolling all content laid before you gets a bit old after awhile, it's nice to have something where only truely dedicated groups can win, and even then they fail sometimes.

You say you have 2 Legion groups and neither can get 18? Why not just combine the two groups?

[Aarahs]

Have you tried with a relic dragoon? I imagine the defense down effect would help increase the damage done by the other DDs. I haven't been able to find a legion group on my server, so don't know how much it would help.

[Afania]

While this is a legitimate concern, Legion is simply not designed to work this way. It was meant to be cleared with a familiar group of friends, who will stick around and work together to improve at the event and eventually clear it. This pretty much means LS events, possibly with strangers on less demanding jobs to fill in the gaps.

This is exactly the point I was talking about earlier, that current NA population is just too small to do this sort of thing(core member that stick together to learn, must have super situational gears just for this event, specific job/gear set) if it requires 18/18.

I can get 18/18 people from my LS or close friends, but it's not going to be a good setup because some of them doesn't have correct job/gear requirement. If I'm going to just select people with right job and fits gear requirement, then at very best it's only 12~15 people. Not to mention all that people come and go. Some of the player with legion experience will leave after they got bored/sick of it or get everything they want, leaving new members need to relearn everything again.

Maybe it's not a JP problem, or problem with bigger LS. But at this point of time, probably 95% of NA and EU LS isn't going to be big enough I believe. Event like this should be around 12 players or less, so it's easier to get a group of core members that stick together. 18 is just simply too big number for majority of the NA and EU LS IMO.




You say you have 2 Legion groups and neither can get 18? Why not just combine the two groups?

Just point system and different lotting rules can cause enough drama, I've been trying to get some of the people from different groups, but it's not exactly easy since they're not going to get enough benefit by jumping groups, your point start from scratch if you jump group, and many people at this point of time got most of the items besides rare drop anyways, so there really isn't enough interest to jump group either. Most of the people will downright say "no" to another group if they know that everyone else in that group has higher point to lot items. This also apply to a lot of new member that interested in legion but never done it, at this point of time not everyone is interested in sticking with an event group for weeks and months to build up enough points to lot items.


Also, regarding the mantis, it's more of a gambling rather than something requiring skill/pt organization. Unless someone can point out a way to have 0 death rate without having specific gear set thats only useful in legion. I do not want to have 1~2 DD died from mantis, I don't want any DD die from it, and whether it's going to have death or not it's just nothing but gambling atm.

As stated before, if you can stun it fast enough, then you should be able to stun it, instead of having to gamble that stun would land or having to spend time to build another gear set JUST for this mob.

[Arcon]

While, in general, I agree with your overall sentiment, I'm not sure why you think some situational gear is required (or even massively beneficial) to Legion. I don't know of any piece of gear at all, for any job, that is only good in Legion and nowhere else. You simply want "good" gear, but I fail to see how this is in any way different from any other event ever.

And setups are also not a massive problem, I think the worst problem is firstly finding skilled players who can adhere to a certain strategy and not fuck up and secondly, finding that many of them. Gear and job selection aren't the real issues (unless we're talking about extremely casual players), as many people have many jobs leveled these days, and while exceptional gear may still be rare, "good enough" gear isn't. The quantity, quality and integrity of players is the crux in making this casual friendly. It's an event that requires a significant amount of cooperation of a large group, with preferably a static lineup of people who won't quit straight after obtaining what they came for.

[Afania]

While, in general, I agree with your overall sentiment, I'm not sure why you think some situational gear is required (or even massively beneficial) to Legion. I don't know of any piece of gear at all, for any job, that is only good in Legion and nowhere else. You simply want "good" gear, but I fail to see how this is in any way different from any other event ever.

And setups are also not a massive problem, I think the worst problem is firstly finding skilled players who can adhere to a certain strategy and not fuck up and secondly, finding that many of them. Gear and job selection aren't the real issues (unless we're talking about extremely casual players), as many people have many jobs leveled these days, and while exceptional gear may still be rare, "good enough" gear isn't. The quantity, quality and integrity of players is the crux in making this casual friendly. It's an event that requires a significant amount of cooperation of a large group, with preferably a static lineup of people who won't quit straight after obtaining what they came for.

Personally I've used several different weaponn DDs in legion, including 95 Rag, 95 Apoc, 90 Ukon, 99 h2h relic, 99 relic RNG, 99 Masa, 99 amano, OAT GS etc. And in general, Rag(not even 99 rag, just 95) has highest performance on top of able to 2hr zerg.

I did not ever once say that if you don't have X weapon you can't clear, there are groups who cleared without them yes. But you can't deny that certain weapon pulls way ahead of another, which is mainly because of enemy crit-hit%- and high evasion+def I believe, which just hurts crit-hit WS job or weapons without acc on them. If you do other event such as ADL/Nyzul/VW T3, the difference between every DD job/weapon wasn't even this big.

I fail to see why enemy crit-hit%- and that high evasion/def is needed in this event, it simply makes certain weapon stand out and that's it. It doesn't suddenly make this event "hard", or your DD suddenly more "elite"(a 95 rag isn't more elite than other weapon no?), it just make the gap between DD jobs even bigger.

As for legion specific gear set, generally I will ask SCH to have macc stun set+Impact(ideally need 500+ enhancing/healing/nuking too, but I'd be happy enough if they can stun), DDs for PDT- MDT- set, and will ask them to tweak TP set for more accuracy. I used to ask SMN to have capped or close to capped summoning magic skill too, but I don't really care anymore as SCH is the one stunning mostly and now I just ask for capped bloodpact delay-. For those ppl who is used to lower tier VW, stun set with macc, PDT-MDT- set and accuracy for DD is simply not needed. A lot of SMN also don't use Ramuh outside of legion. You can argue that PDT- MDT- set and accuracy every DD should have and not just legion DDs, doesn't mean everyone would be bother with them when you don't really need those in VW with fana/fool/temp.

And yes other event you'd still want "good gear", but it's not as hit or miss as in legion, thus more acceptable to use less optimal set. In VW a pt with "good DD" and "average DD" is the difference between 2 min kill and 5 min kill, but still kill regardless. In legion it's between clear wave 3 and get Gallu/Rex drop or no Gallu/Rex drop at all.

[Arcon]

Personally I've used several different weaponn DDs in legion, including 95 Rag, 95 Apoc, 90 Ukon, 99 h2h relic, 99 relic RNG, 99 Masa, 99 amano, OAT GS etc. And in general, Rag(not even 99 rag, just 95) has highest performance on top of able to 2hr zerg.

It's ahead of almost all others in any other event as well. It's simply a damn good weapon for one of strongest (if not the strongest) weapon skill in the game. Ragnarok DDs will out-damage most players in most events.


I fail to see why enemy crit-hit%- and that high evasion/def is needed in this event, it simply makes certain weapon stand out and that's it. It doesn't suddenly make this event "hard", or your DD suddenly more "elite"(a 95 rag isn't more elite than other weapon no?), it just make the gap between DD jobs even bigger.

I don't disagree with that, I don't know why they went for that.


As for legion specific gear set, generally I will ask SCH to have macc stun set+Impact(ideally need 500+ enhancing/healing/nuking too, but I'd be happy enough if they can stun), [..]

Enhancing I can understand, but is not necessary at all. Combined with Haste, the magical Haste cap will be reached with about ~420 Enhancing skill, which can be easily obtained by just using Light Arts and some gear. Any more Enhancing Magic skill is only good for Regain, which is rarely an issue unless you have a specific Store TP set for it and Regen, which is nice, but not make or break.


[..] DDs for PDT- MDT- set, and will ask them to tweak TP set for more accuracy.

The first part is only natural and DDs should have it for any endgame event. The latter is rarer outside of Legion, but it's also not excessively important with proper buffing (BRD and COR), no more than any melee should have anyway.


I used to ask SMN to have capped or close to capped summoning magic skill too, but I don't really care anymore as SCH is the one stunning mostly and now I just ask for capped bloodpact delay-. For those ppl who is used to lower tier VW, stun set with macc, PDT-MDT- set and accuracy for DD is simply not needed. A lot of SMN also don't use Ramuh outside of legion. You can argue that PDT- MDT- set and accuracy every DD should have and not just legion DDs, doesn't mean everyone would be bother with them when you don't really need those in VW with fana/fool/temp.

But that's the equivalent of saying that no event should require those things anymore, because VW didn't. VW was horrible designed in that regard, and the reliance on temp items to succeed was what many people hated about it, gameplay wise. I do still argue that you need the same gear for Legion as for any other endgame event, I simply don't consider "lower tier VW" to be an endgame event. Einherjar II, Limbus II, Nyzul Uncharted Area Survey all require good gear, so by that extension it's only normal to be prepared for it. When you said Legion-specific gear I thought you meant gear that's not useful outside of it, but all the things you mentioned would make people better all around, so everyone should at least try to obtain them (and some of them actually are easy and cheap to obtain, so there's hardly an excuse aside from not being bothered).

Regardless, like I said earlier, I do agree with your general sentiment, only I think number of players and reliable players are more of a bottleneck than event-specific gear.

[Afania]

Enhancing I can understand, but is not necessary at all. Combined with Haste, the magical Haste cap will be reached with about ~420 Enhancing skill, which can be easily obtained by just using Light Arts and some gear. Any more Enhancing Magic skill is only good for Regain, which is rarely an issue unless you have a specific Store TP set for it and Regen, which is nice, but not make or break.


That's why I said "ideally" and don't always ask for 500+. But really, any SCH that can stun I'm happy enough ._.





The first part is only natural and DDs should have it for any endgame event. The latter is rarer outside of Legion, but it's also not excessively important with proper buffing (BRD and COR), no more than any melee should have anyway.



But that's the equivalent of saying that no event should require those things anymore, because VW didn't. VW was horrible designed in that regard, and the reliance on temp items to succeed was what many people hated about it, gameplay wise. I do still argue that you need the same gear for Legion as for any other endgame event, I simply don't consider "lower tier VW" to be an endgame event. Einherjar II, Limbus II, Nyzul Uncharted Area Survey all require good gear, so by that extension it's only normal to be prepared for it. When you said Legion-specific gear I thought you meant gear that's not useful outside of it, but all the things you mentioned would make people better all around, so everyone should at least try to obtain them (and some of them actually are easy and cheap to obtain, so there's hardly an excuse aside from not being bothered).


I thought limbus2 is pretty easy, and no, Nyzul isle uncharted doesn't need it. NNI is more about movement speed and where you should go on every floor, voice chat and powder boots, less about dealing with NM super dangerous and high evasion. I honestly couldn't think of any other event besides legion that will need to prepare before entering, everything else you can just walk in with whatever you have and still win.

I typically have BRD SV acc song+2x attack song and lock SV so every acc song would have SV, that way COR can stay Chaos+fighters. However, I still seen enough none-rag DD that doesn't cap accuracy. In that regard, Rag is pretty failproof. Some of the gears such as acc or macc is just not needed everywhere else(acc may be needed in prov, but again, not everyone ever did prov or care about prov performance). Even if you think carrying it makes you better all around, but majority of player isn't going to be bother with it if other event you can win without those, especially when many player have multiple jobs nowaday and SCH DD SMN may just be one of them out of many.

If certain player doesn't want to bother with certain gear set just for legion because they can win every other event without them, I can't really give them lecture and ask them to "improve". Not everyone play the game to do work so they can win hardest event in this game. A lot of the time when I ask certain player to skill up/get gear for certain legion job or lv certain legion job, their first reply is that they're out and would rather not do it, even if the reward is something they may need.

Many other event, such as VW, Nyzul, dyna also offer reward that's not worse than legion, but requires less work on your skill level/gear sets. Thus there aren't much incentive for average players to do legion instead of dyna and Nyzul IMO.

Games have been pretty friendly to casual players for a while, stressing stuff like dealing with points and lotting rule, gather at set schedule every week, or work on skill/gear for event isn't for everyone, sadly.

[wish12oz]

For gear sets, speaking specifically about SCH, you have to have the thunder magic accuracy magian staff, and tons of dark skill gear/magic acc, and have dark skill skilled up to almost be able to reliably stun the mantis and other mobs with instant death moves in Legion.

For WAR, which is the best DD, 99 Ukon is the best weapon for everything except mighty strikes zerging (Conqueror) and when mobs have a big -critical hit rate% trait (Ragnarok) Making a relic for 1 event is not really something most people want to do, and I agree that it's a bit stupid, but whatever, thats how the games always been and theres no way SE is going to change it.

For overall melee TP and WS sets, any decent DD needs a set with more accuracy in it than whats required for fodder mobs, there are things these sets are useful for besides Legion. Like any VW monster thats a higher tier than Qilin.

[Mahoro]

I have some problems with your statements, mainly that you think Rex and Gallu have the good drops.

While it's true they drop body abjurations and meteor/arise, the truth is you cap out on that stuff very, very fast. The good drops are L feet, L head, C feet, Ormulo Ingot and Duplus grip. And if you have any amount of people that want any 1 of those items, I assure you that all your mules will have meteor, arise and body abjurations before you finish those drops.



I find the number of people who want Wurrukate Boots and Ngen Seraweels in my two groups more than justifies the mobs even after people cap out on Meteor/Arise/Honors. And even after capping the latter, they are still worthwhile drops to liquidate.

[MarkovChain]

Reward wise, legion is actually pretty balanced IMO. The fact that Gallu/Rex on wave 3 has 100% drop slot pretty much offers good reward for more effort.

Which ? And for what job ? The entire thing looked like "a pile of worthless crap or sidegrades in certain situation that never happen" kind of gear, when they released it. Meteor and arise serve no purpose in the game and if you ever want some they cost 5 M at bazaars (2 dynamis run farming if you suck).

The only reason I don't do it is because the drops are crap. The event seems to be an excuse to make arise/meteor drop or skilling up crafts. If SE wants people to have interest they need to give great stuff for every job first, which you don't seem to emphasize in your post. Aside from that I entirely agree with the other parts. However I fear that the incoming embrava and PD nerf is going to end up in a trivialisation of the event such has displacers for voidwatch.

Another threat is going to be the new salvage gear probably (both because of quality and player friendly environement).

Let's be honest ?


I find the number of people who want Wurrukate Boots and Ngen Seraweels in my two groups more than justifies the mobs even after people cap out on Meteor/Arise/Honors. And even after capping the latter, they are still worthwhile drops to liquidate.

job ?

[Mahoro]

Which ? And for what job ? The entire thing looked like "a pile of worthless crap or sidegrades in certain situation that never happen" kind of gear, when they released it. Meteor and arise serve no purpose in the game and if you ever want some they cost 5 M at bazaars (2 dynamis run farming if you suck).



job ?

The jobs that can benefit from them (i.e., not MNK).

[Demon6324236]

Iaso has the best cure head & feet (bar a pair of perfectly augmented Zenith Pumps +1) in the game, along with a well rounded body.

Spurrina has one of the best nuking bodies in the game, not to mention the best Enfeebling Feet.

Huginn has a great Upheaval body, and some great TP/WS feet.

Tenryu(MNK can use) has a good head piece, a decent body piece, and the feet are good for TP/WS on certain jobs.

Then finally is Khepri, another set for MNK. This has the best WS body in the game for MNK so far as I know when Impetus is down, a great STR+15 and +5% WS damage, easily beating out any other options, along with the feet being amazing for RNG, having Snapshot & a ton of both Ranged Attack & Accuracy with some good ol Enmity down.

Moving outside of Abjuration Gear...
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/9/91/Fulad-Zereh_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/c/cb/Gunman_Gambison_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/a/a8/Wrathwing_Nails_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/e/e0/Maquette_Ring_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/c/c4/Esper_Earring_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/4/4e/A%27as_Circlet_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/a/ad/Wurrukatte_Boots_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/0/00/Ngen_Seraweels_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/4/41/Eirene%27s_Manteel_description.png
Edit:Don't know how I forgot to put this in...
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/9/97/Duplus_Grip_description.png

I think this about sums up all of the good~great Legion gear.

[saevel]

Most of that gear is kinda pointless as other versions exist already. The pieces that are good are very slight upgrades to what currently exists. It's an effort vs reward kinda of thing. My shell thought long and hard about making legion a regularly scheduled event, got down into tactics and job requirements. Eventually we decided it wasn't worth the hassle / headache and that our members had other events they wanted to do for gear. Most of the legion drops can be bought with gil and we do ADL payouts so members are getting gil they can use for that. The abjuration gear is pretty much non-existent right now, there just aren't enough HQ cursed items floating around to make it a reasonable goal. Maybe if / when SE raise's the crafting cap again we'll see more of them appear, also hopefully they make the materials more common to acquire since unless it's HQ it's just not worth it.

[MarkovChain]

Iaso has the best cure head & feet (bar a pair of perfectly augmented Zenith Pumps +1) in the game, along with a well rounded body.

Spurrina has one of the best nuking bodies in the game, not to mention the best Enfeebling Feet.

Huginn has a great Upheaval body, and some great TP/WS feet.

Tenryu(MNK can use) has a good head piece, a decent body piece, and the feet are good for TP/WS on certain jobs.

Then finally is Khepri, another set for MNK. This has the best WS body in the game for MNK so far as I know when Impetus is down, a great STR+15 and +5% WS damage, easily beating out any other options, along with the feet being amazing for RNG, having Snapshot & a ton of both Ranged Attack & Accuracy with some good ol Enmity down.

Moving outside of Abjuration Gear...
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/9/91/Fulad-Zereh_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/c/cb/Gunman_Gambison_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/a/a8/Wrathwing_Nails_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/e/e0/Maquette_Ring_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/c/c4/Esper_Earring_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/4/4e/A%27as_Circlet_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/a/ad/Wurrukatte_Boots_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/0/00/Ngen_Seraweels_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/4/41/Eirene%27s_Manteel_description.png
Edit:Don't know how I forgot to put this in...
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/9/97/Duplus_Grip_description.png

I think this about sums up all of the good~great Legion gear.

Not sure if serious but first unlike what you said all the MNK gear is inferior to existing pieces and except esper earring and maybe the smn leg and duplus grip the gear you listed fails. In reality when you check carefully, you will find maybe one piece of equip per job that's actually an upgrade/side grade.

[Demon6324236]

Would you like to tell me what body beats Khepri in WSing when Impetus is down?

Looking at the SS in your Sig, you seem to be wearing
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/2/26/Mustela_Mask_description.png
which loses to
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/9/98/Tenryu_Somen_%2B1_description.png
in just about every way, except it doesn't have DEX, instead it has accuracy.

I really don't feel like going through each piece of gear to explain why they are good... You don't listen anyways. Suffice it to say much of the augmentable gear is great for certain jobs, and some of the drops themselves are good as well.

[Arcon]

You don't listen anyways.

Keep in mind you're talking to someone who finished two Afterglow weapons yet insists that the event is not worth doing because it only has minor upgrades and sidegrades.

He's not as retarded as he likes to make people believe, though. He probably knows he's full of shit, he's just too lazy to do it or to get a group together that's capable of clearing that content, so he needs to rationalize his behavior somehow. Either that or it's French logic, I'm not sure.

[MarkovChain]

Would you like to tell me what body beats Khepri in WSing when Impetus is down?

impetus up and victory smite = AF3+2
impetus down = AF3+2 or mantaca harness
shinin spiral = toci+ocelmoeh+1 combo in all cases

You like shinies but you don't seem to know that WSD is first hit only making it less desirable.







Looking at the SS in your Sig, you seem to be wearing
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/2/26/Mustela_Mask_description.png
which loses to
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/9/98/Tenryu_Somen_%2B1_description.png
in just about every way, except it doesn't have DEX, instead it has accuracy.


both lose to thaumas hat, which loses to nemetona cap.





I really don't feel like going through each piece of gear to explain why they are good... You don't listen anyways. Suffice it to say much of the augmentable gear is great for certain jobs, and some of the drops themselves are good as well.

You should because you are clueless.

[Mahoro]

Most of that gear is kinda pointless as other versions exist already. The pieces that are good are very slight upgrades to what currently exists. It's an effort vs reward kinda of thing. My shell thought long and hard about making legion a regularly scheduled event, got down into tactics and job requirements. Eventually we decided it wasn't worth the hassle / headache and that our members had other events they wanted to do for gear. Most of the legion drops can be bought with gil and we do ADL payouts so members are getting gil they can use for that. The abjuration gear is pretty much non-existent right now, there just aren't enough HQ cursed items floating around to make it a reasonable goal. Maybe if / when SE raise's the crafting cap again we'll see more of them appear, also hopefully they make the materials more common to acquire since unless it's HQ it's just not worth it.

I) I understand the "other events" thing, and I suppose for some groups with limited event time it's a matter of what other remaining goals people have unfulfilled. To me, Legion is where you go to do those final tweaks on jobs once you have most everything else. And I never advocate doing Legion instead of Neo-Nyzul, if it comes down to a choice amongst limited gameplay time.

II) The effort/reward thing I can understand as well, but only to a point:

a) If "time" is the issue, the event is 30 minutes. Assuming a LS has 18 regularly-showing people (which you likely have if you are running events like Prov Watcher), Legion takes as much time or less than those other events. It is a decent complement to ADL runs. Indeed, once a group gets experience, they can just farm lower chambers for trophies and do a Mul run each time they meet, which has 90-95% of the worthwhile drops in Legion. The whole thing takes about 1.5 hours, which is about as much time as your average /shout Prov Watcher group takes for drop rates a fraction of the size. Arguably, 1.5 hours for access to the above list of drops is actually a BETTER effort/reward ratio than the constantly disappointing Prov Watcher, especially when certain stuff like Meteor/Arise has a 100% drop slot. People tend to go home with SOMETHING in my Legion runs, unlike Prov Watcher where they just go home with hatred toward Tanaka.

b) If "hassle/headache" is the issue (i.e., the X-factor) I can understand that much more. Leading one of these runs can be challenging, and there are nights I just don't want to deal with it in my LS. Again, it's all a matter of who you have in your group. Most of the people in both my LS and the side group with which I run are hungry for new events and love the adrenaline rush Legion can give. They don't consider it a hassle or a headache.

III) As for rewards and Pchan's continuing zeal to justify not doing the event, they have been discussed ad nauseum. There are no groundbreaking pieces in Legion, except maybe for SMN. For most people, there are undeniable upgrades (however slight) for people who have everything else. Pchan just listing that "stuff fails" does not, in and of itself, make something fail. He has thankfully conceded the usefulness of Esper Earring, Ngen Seraweels, and Duplus Grip, but he has no conception that someone who plays BLU might get use out of an A'as Circlet, or that a BLM might want a Maniacus Sash, or that a DRK might want Striga Crown, or that certain melee can benefit from Wurrukatte Boots and Huginn Gambieras, or that if everybody took his advice and didn't do the event there would not BE a stream of buyable Legion drops on the AH or in peoples' bazaars (especially Meteor/Arise since Prov Watcher is notoriously stingy). Instead, we get a constant and unending stream of dead-end MNK-skewed ad hominem jabs.

[Demon6324236]

Keep in mind you're talking to someone who finished two Afterglow weapons yet insists that the event is not worth doing because it only has minor upgrades and sidegrades.

He's not as retarded as he likes to make people believe, though. He probably knows he's full of shit, he's just too lazy to do it or to get a group together that's capable of clearing that content, so he needs to rationalize his behavior somehow. Either that or it's French logic, I'm not sure.

Seeing as my view on Afterglow weapons is that to make one you must be both a selfish asshole & an idiot, thats not helping to prove the contrary.

[Monchat]

Would you like to tell me what body beats Khepri in WSing when Impetus is down?


Khepri is exactly 0.3% better than toci's harness in the situation: impetus down, aggressor down, focus down, berserk up. Talk about situational. One job it's good for is mandau thf (thats it?). Droping 150 millions for a item that is 0.3% better thant toci's in the situation that never happens is stupid. Also for 150 million you can get a spharai, which is superior to a verethragna, in which case you do not care since nothing beats toci's for shijin spiral.

[MarkovChain]

Seeing as my view on Afterglow weapons is that to make one you must be both a selfish asshole & an idiot, thats not helping to prove the contrary.

Not sure why you are entitled to judge, but selfish is not the word as both me and mdk have one and we duoed both of them. If you are organised it's not harder than getting a full salvage set back in the day or a relic at 75. The way we did it it also happen to be much faster than a BST soloing dynamis for a relic.

[Demon6324236]

I say selfish because of the massive amount of things you waste. Cinder for instance, I remember having a talk on here with Mdk about how Cinder was hard to find, I wonder how its hard to find, only drops from 2 NMs in VW which are not the most commonly done NMs, and 1 player was taking 3000 of them to themselves for a worthless upgrade... Seems a bit selfish. I feel entitled to judge because I know stupid things when I see them, I watch people on this server shout for days at times, trying to get cinder or dross for upgrades, if someone is hoarding them for Afterglow, they are not only a fool, but selfish for hoarding 3000 items (50 upgrades worth) to themselves for an upgrade that is no where near worth it while people shout all over needing them.

If you duoed ADL for all the marrows, cool, still a waste, going back to what your sig says, you have 2 lv95 H2H you could have 99ed, you could have made a relic for a few new jobs, learned how gear works for those jobs so maybe you don't think that for some reason, every event has terrible gear and isn't worth doing. There are a number of problems I have with afterglow in general that give me that outlook on them, and very little anyone can say or do to change that.



250 x 16Million = 4Billion
4Billion divided by 135Million(Aprox price of a relic) = 29.6
So you could have instead funded nearly 30 relics or you could have made about 18~19 lv99 Relics. These could be made by friends, LS members, anyone you know, instead, you got some glowing hands... Congratulations.

[Afania]

I say selfish because of the massive amount of things you waste. Cinder for instance, I remember having a talk on here with Mdk about how Cinder was hard to find, I wonder how its hard to find, only drops from 2 NMs in VW which are not the most commonly done NMs, and 1 player was taking 3000 of them to themselves for a worthless upgrade... Seems a bit selfish. I feel entitled to judge because I know stupid things when I see them, I watch people on this server shout for days at times, trying to get cinder or dross for upgrades, if someone is hoarding them for Afterglow, they are not only a fool, but selfish for hoarding 3000 items (50 upgrades worth) to themselves for an upgrade that is no where near worth it while people shout all over needing them.

If you duoed ADL for all the marrows, cool, still a waste, going back to what your sig says, you have 2 lv95 H2H you could have 99ed, you could have made a relic for a few new jobs, learned how gear works for those jobs so maybe you don't think that for some reason, every event has terrible gear and isn't worth doing. There are a number of problems I have with afterglow in general that give me that outlook on them, and very little anyone can say or do to change that.



250 x 16Million = 4Billion
4Billion divided by 135Million(Aprox price of a relic) = 29.6
So you could have instead funded nearly 30 relics or you could have made about 18~19 lv99 Relics. These could be made by friends, LS members, anyone you know, instead, you got some glowing hands... Congratulations.


Lol a bit derailing, but I disagree with what you said there.

By your logic, anyone buying currency for his relic club/staff is a waste, anyone buying alex for NIN Mythic or ranged Mythic is a waste too. And anyone buying HMP/Dross/Cinder for polearm/staff/club is also a waste.

And pulling another step further, anyone buying currency for ANY relic except Ragnaork, anyone buying alex for ANY Mythic except GK/Polearm/KKK and anyone buying hMP/cinder/dross for ANY empy except Ukon/Harp/Vere/Masa is also a waste.

BECAUSE THOSE THINGS DOESN'T WORTH IT WHEN ANOTHER RELIC/MYTHIC/EMPY IS MORE OF AN UPGRADE!!!!!! And I'm entitled to judge too, because I have strong sense of justice and must correct all the wrongs in this world ;)

Amirite?

Cinder/dross/hmp/alex/currency is on the market for anyone that can afford it to buy. As long as they farm their gil legit, it's their 10$ a month and they have right to choose what to upgrade they want, even if it's a meanless upgrade.

And no one else has right to point finger for not spending gil on X relic or X empy, unless you farmed gil for them or paid their monthly fee.

Not everyone is interested in playing jobs they don't enjoy, nor farm a relic/empy for jobs they don't enjoy. Some ppl just enjoy playing 1 job and get everything for that 1 job. Your arguement of saying "why don't you just spend on another relic" is totally invalid. You don't have right to point finger to any player that doesn't play/gear new jobs unless you pay for them. Just because you would choose to gear a new job and get relic for it, doesn't mean every player have to do it like you, and not following your way doesn't make them selfish too.

And giving out gil to LS/friend? Lol. How about you give out 1 relic worth of gil to your LS and friend and see how'd you feel w Especially when ppl come and go so fast nowadays, I wonder if giving out relics to friends is even worth it or not when they just get relic and sell account.

Before you point fingers to others, calling others "selfish", how about you show yourself that you're not selfish and willing out to give 30 relics to friends w. Majority of players doesn't give out relic to friends, so by your logic majority of players are selfish too w

But no, not giving out relic to friends isn't selfish, buying cinder for afterglow(or any weaker empy upgrade) isn't too. Anyone have right to keep their hard earned gil on themselves. Or else you're calling majority of players that doesn't work on right weapon and not giving out gil selfish too, and that probably include yourself.


Edit: Personally I don't think Vere afterglow is completely useless if you pt with none aftermath DD btw.

[Demon6324236]

By your logic, anyone buying currency for his relic club/staff is a waste, anyone buying alex for NIN Mythic or ranged Mythic is a waste too. And anyone buying HMP/Dross/Cinder for polearm/staff/club is also a waste.

And pulling another step further, anyone buying currency for ANY relic except Ragnaork, anyone buying alex for ANY Mythic except GK/Polearm/KKK and anyone buying hMP/cinder/dross for ANY empy except Ukon/Harp/Vere/Masa is also a waste.

BECAUSE THOSE THINGS DOESN'T WORTH IT WHEN ANOTHER RELIC/MYTHIC/EMPY IS MORE OF AN UPGRADE!!!!!! And I'm entitled to judge too, because I have strong sense of justice and must correct all the wrongs in this world ;)

Amirite?You see there is a difference. Afterglow is a cosmetic upgrade with nearly no benefit what to ever, thus, a waste. Your going much to far into what your saying. For instance, my Excalibur does more damage for my RDM, thus, worthy investment. A Mythic NIN does more damage, again, worthy investment. Aftermath MNK gets glowy hands, not a worthy investment. Afterglow WAR gets a giant glowing Axe, again, not worth it. If afterglow improved stats, I might see it as worth it, and not selfish.

Now if the stats were
99:DMG:+52 Delay:+86 Attack+40 Enhances "Counter" effect V "Final Heaven"
99-2:DMG:+62 Delay:+86 Attack+50 Enhances "Counter" effect VI "Final Heaven" Afterglow
Might have something there, an increase in DMG, Attack, and Enhancement. However your comparison is bad imo because your talking about real improvements vs visual improvements.
Cinder/dross/hmp/alex/currency is on the market for anyone that can afford it to buy. As long as they farm their gil legit, it's their 10$ a month and they have right to choose what to upgrade they want, even if it's a meanless upgrade.

And no one else has right to point finger for not spending gil on X relic or X empy, unless you farmed gil for them or paid their monthly fee.I still see any afterglow as a selfish use of supplies & resources, simple as that. Spend your gil on what you want but that doesn't mean at the end of the day I will think it was any less selfish or justified.
Not everyone is interested in playing jobs they don't enjoy, nor farm a relic/empy for jobs they don't enjoy. Some ppl just enjoy playing 1 job and get everything for that 1 job. Your arguement of saying "why don't you just spend on another relic" is totally invalid. You don't have right to point finger to any player that doesn't play/gear new jobs unless you pay for them. Just because you would choose to gear a new job and get relic for it, doesn't mean every player have to do it like you, and not following your way doesn't make them selfish too.That comment was mainly thrown in because it seems as though Pchan likes to say every event that comes out has shit for gear, but fails to mention that really, thats because only counting MNKs gear. For instance, NNI rewards, which have some of the best Heavy DD gear in the game including the best WS body ever, or like with Legion.
And giving out gil to LS/friend? Lol. How about you give out 1 relic worth of gil to your LS and friend and see how'd you feel w Especially when ppl come and go so fast nowadays, I wonder if giving out relics to friends is even worth it or not when they just get relic and sell account.

Before you point fingers to others, calling others "selfish", how about you show yourself that you're not selfish and willing out to give 30 relics to friends w. Majority of players doesn't give out relic to friends, so by your logic majority of players are selfish too wIf I had the 250 Marrows to do it? Yeah, I would sell 200 of them and use the gil to buy my best friend his Alexandrites for his Ryuno, buy the Alex for my GF's KKK or Nirvana she wants, finish my Excalibur & Almace to 99, possibly make the RDM Mythic, and after all of that which is about... 2 Billion of the gil, then finish the Bravura, Aegis, Apoc, Rag, and Anni that are being built in my LS as well as 99 them all with the remaining Marrows I didn't sell, along with 99 the 2 relics in my LS currently. That would run down the gil to leave about... 10 Marrows & 300~500Mil gil, which would go to more Relics, Mythics, or Emps that need it later. This would take my LS from its current... 4 Emps 2 Relics, to 4 Emps 7 Relics & 3 Mythics, a massive improvement in group strength. See, the flaw is, I don't have 250 Marrows, so this is all hypothetical, and also I am in a mainly casual/social LS which I run because I like the people in it and have known them for years. Unlike others I don't have easy access to ADL, Neo-Events, or Legion due to that choice, not that its anyone else's fault but my own, but its the reason why I cant exactly do all that like I want to.
But no, not giving out relic to friends isn't selfish, buying cinder for afterglow(or any weaker empy upgrade) isn't too. Anyone have right to keep their hard earned gil on themselves. Or else you're calling majority of players that doesn't work on right weapon and not giving out gil selfish too, and that probably include yourself.To make Afterglow you have to be one of the richest people on the game, or you have enough shit to sell to be one of the richest people on the game. If you have that much money or potential money and you cant share it with those around you, instead you make a worthless upgrade to your weapon to make it shiny, yes, thats selfish to me.
Edit: Personally I don't think Vere afterglow is completely useless if you pt with none aftermath DD btw.Depends on the % of the increased crit rate... and even then, not nearly worth 3~4 Billion gil.

[MarkovChain]

Edit: Personally I don't think Vere afterglow is completely useless if you pt with none aftermath DD btw.

My new pimpass afterglow spharai is benefiting from +5% crit from mdk's afterglow (all this because final heaven sux)

[MarkovChain]

I say selfish because of the massive amount of things you waste. Cinder for instance, I remember having a talk on here with Mdk about how Cinder was hard to find, I wonder how its hard to find, only drops from 2 NMs in VW which are not the most commonly done NMs, and 1 player was taking 3000 of them to themselves for a worthless upgrade... Seems a bit selfish. I feel entitled to judge because I know stupid things when I see them, I watch people on this server shout for days at times, trying to get cinder or dross for upgrades, if someone is hoarding them for Afterglow, they are not only a fool, but selfish for hoarding 3000 items (50 upgrades worth) to themselves for an upgrade that is no where near worth it while people shout all over needing them.

That's a fairly retarded conception of the game. This is not communism. By your logic anyone with more than 100M gil should start giving away because there are plenty of people that are poor ? Oh and accorrding to the 2012 vana census the amount of people upgrading to a level 99 is very limited. I remember that on average you had 1 monk per server and 1 war every 2 servers at a given time.



250 x 16Million = 4Billion
4Billion divided by 135Million(Aprox price of a relic) = 29.6
So you could have instead funded nearly 30 relics or you could have made about 18~19 lv99 Relics. These could be made by friends, LS members, anyone you know, instead, you got some glowing hands... Congratulations.

Glowing is so much better though.

[Afania]

You see there is a difference. Afterglow is a cosmetic upgrade with nearly no benefit what to ever, thus, a waste. Your going much to far into what your saying. For instance, my Excalibur does more damage for my RDM, thus, worthy investment. A Mythic NIN does more damage, again, worthy investment. Aftermath MNK gets glowy hands, not a worthy investment. Afterglow WAR gets a giant glowing Axe, again, not worth it. If afterglow improved stats, I might see it as worth it, and not selfish.

Now if the stats were
99:DMG:+52 Delay:+86 Attack+40 Enhances "Counter" effect V "Final Heaven"
99-2:DMG:+62 Delay:+86 Attack+50 Enhances "Counter" effect VI "Final Heaven" Afterglow
Might have something there, an increase in DMG, Attack, and Enhancement. However your comparison is bad imo because your talking about real improvements vs visual improvements.I still see any afterglow as a selfish use of supplies & resources, simple as that.


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20744-February-14-2012-(JST)-Version-Update



Lv 99 Vere: STR+20 "Victory Smite"
Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage

Lv 99+ Vere:
STR+20 "Victory Smite"
Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage
Afterglow (Increases critical hit rate)

According to the text on the weapon, a lv 99+ empy does gives more dmg to entire pt(depend on the weapon your pt member use though), thus it's not just visual improvement.
It does make a difference in terms of your pt output.

When everyone bash on afterglow, there are 2 main reasons. First being majority of player can't afford it while other gears more affordable, 2nd being the improvement is other pt member, not the user(and not every weapon gets benefit). However, even if user couldn't improve dmg, you still can't deny that entire pt's output increased with afterglow.Which is situational, like how you liked Excalibur on your RDM. I guess it's just so hard for you to grasp the concept of team performance. If you can't grasp the concept of team performance or situationally gets benefit, then of course afterglow is useless to you.

I can argue that getting excalibur for RDM is pointless too considering currently there are no real reason to use melee RDM over other alternatives. Of course you won't agree with it, like how I disagree with afterglow being useless. It's situational, just like excalibur for RDM melee. Just becase YOU think it's not worth it, doesn't mean everyone else thinks the same way. How about I tell you that I don't think excalibur for RDM is not worth it and anyone building it is a waste of currency when it can go to Rag, because it's not worth spending 100M+ on a melee weapon for RDM when I can just use empy if I want to melee(which is never), how'd you feel?









.If I had the 250 Marrows to do it? Yeah, I would sell 200 of them and use the gil to buy my best friend his Alexandrites for his Ryuno, buy the Alex for my GF's KKK or Nirvana she wants, finish my Excalibur & Almace to 99, possibly make the RDM Mythic, and after all of that which is about... 2 Billion of the gil, then finish the Bravura, Aegis, Apoc, Rag, and Anni that are being built in my LS as well as 99 them all with the remaining Marrows I didn't sell, along with 99 the 2 relics in my LS currently. That would run down the gil to leave about... 10 Marrows & 300~500Mil gil, which would go to more Relics, Mythics, or Emps that need it later. This would take my LS from its current... 4 Emps 2 Relics, to 4 Emps 7 Relics & 3 Mythics, a massive improvement in group strength. See, the flaw is, I don't have 250 Marrows, so this is all hypothetical


If I'm as rich as Bill Gates, I'm going to spend millions and millions to help the poor, because I don't need that much money to live, and all those rich bastards in the world never donate enough money to help the poor ;(

But see, the flaw is, I am not as rich as Bill Gates, so this is all hypothetical and I can never help the poor ;(

Assuming Pchan's gil didn't came from RMT and he farmed all himself, you're assuming all his gil just rain down from sky, that he didn't spend any effort to farm for it, and anyone that can't afford relic/empy/Mythic are entitle to get a share.

The fact is, he probably spend more effort to farm the gil than anyone else, by doing research, finding a way to lowman ADL efficiently, and farm ADL daily and so on, which is undeniably a lot of work. Unless you spend as much effort and farm that much gil as him, and give it away, you don't have right to act like a justice freak and point finger at him since you never spend the effort and time to farm gil to begin with. Why should anyone not spending the time and effort get a free share of gil so they can start showing off their gear in PJ and sell account when they're bored of FFXI? Why can anyone not spend the time and effort to farm gil can start lecturing others who spent the time to get that much gil?

Bill Gates probably work 10x harder than average ppl to earn the money, like how rich ppl in FFXI probably worked 10x harder than avg ppl to farm the gil(unless you RMT), why'd they give all their hard work away and get nothing? If you're really into saving the poor and help ppl, spend 10x more effort to farm the gil and give it away before you want to point fingers. Whoever spent most effort deserves success and wealth, and right to decide what to do with their wealth, not those who just sit there and do nothing.

If someone wants something, earn with your own hands. I rarely hand out gil to newer players when they need gil for spells too, because that would spoil them and take away all the fun in FFXI, which is to accomplish things by themselves. I tell them how to farm gil best of my knowledge, but I don't hand stuff to them. I sure have enough gil to buy a newer player all the spell he needs, but doesn't mean I think it's right thing to hand out free stuff, and I don't think not handing out free stuff when you earned it in the first place is selfish. Efficient way to farm gil from ADL has been posted and discussed on BG, you should be thankful that at least some ppl didn't keeping their hard earned gil making method secret and anyone can follow the strat.




Now if the stats were
That comment was mainly thrown in because it seems as though Pchan likes to say every event that comes out has shit for gear, but fails to mention that really, thats because only counting MNKs gear

Sounds more like you are against his person, instead of using logic. Whether event has shit gear and worth doing or not is his choice and opinion. Just like how you think you'd want every relic for all your jobs if you're rich, and give away all the gil to others is your choice. You can think afterglow is not worth the gil all day and refuse to work on one if you want, and nobody is going to stop you or point finger at you. Same reason why I will never point finger at you for using currency on excalibur(instead of your friend's DD weapon), because it's your choice and your gil. However, just because someone didn't give 3 billion gil away, doesn't make them selfish as long as he didn't use other ppl to make his gil. Just because you think you're a saint and can give all your gil away if you have that much, doesn't make anyone not doing the same selfish.(if you really want to be a saint that much, spend 10x of effort to farm for gil and hand them out before you talk about it) Like how nobody is allowed to point finger at me for not buying spells for newer players with my gil. The moment you call others selfish for not handing out free gil, you're just not much different from the ppl you look down to.





I think it's pretty selfish to ask rich ppl who worked 10 time harder to hand out free gil to those who doesn't work for it too.

[Demon6324236]

If I'm as rich as Bill Gates, I'm going to spend millions and millions to help the poor, because I don't need that much money to live, and all those rich bastards in the world never donate enough money to help the poor ;(

But see, the flaw is, I am not as rich as Bill Gates, so this is all hypothetical and I can never help the poor ;(

And giving out gil to LS/friend? Lol. How about you give out 1 relic worth of gil to your LS and friend and see how'd you feel.

Before you point fingers to others, calling others "selfish", how about you show yourself that you're not selfish and willing out to give 30 relics to friends.You put this question into play, I answered you honestly what I would do in the case I had that choice, I can do nothing more.

Sounds more like you are against his person, instead of using logic.I simply added it in because the fact he constantly says events have shit for gear does annoy me due to the fact he seemingly ignores all gear that MNK can not use. Perhaps if he were to use another job, he may learn to gear it, and then he could see their use. The remark was not so much to say "Go play some other job even if you don't want to just because you have the money to!" but more to say "If you wanted to you could have even put the money to use like this, so that you may see why gear from events is good, and even give you more to do in the game as you would have more rewards you actually see worth your time."
My new pimpass afterglow spharai is benefiting from +5% crit from mdk's afterglow (all this because final heaven sux)So your not using Final Heaven anyways, making your Afterglow pointless...

[Afania]

You put this question into play, I answered you honestly what I would do in the case I had that choice, I can do nothing more.


As I said, I do believe you that you would do it if you have that much gil suddenly pop in Dbox, but the point is you choose not to farm that much gil or you don't have the ability to farm that much gil.

Thus you're not entitle to call others with the ability/will/determination to farm that much gil selfish.

If someone doesn't have the ability to do charity, nor having the will to withstand the ordeal of gaining ability to do charity, then calling others out for not doing charity is nothing but hypocrisy.

If you really want to help friend so much, then abandon your social approach of this game and get hardcore, withstand the ordeal and mental torture of daily ADL and pay for extra monthly fee for mules, so you can get everyone relic and Mythic in your LS. But since you choose not to get hardcore, then what give you the right to call others who went through all those ordeal selfish? You choose not to farm that much gil in the first place, not you have 3 billion and choose not to give away. You only look at all the gil, and thinks they just rain from sky and whoever has it have to give it away, but never thought of all those gil requires determination, effort and time to get in the first place.

As I said, if you really really REALLY want to be a saint that much, then you will choose an approach to play this game that gives you the ability to become a rich saint that can give relics away. But you'd rather let others do the work, lol.




I see no real benefit to sacrifice this much for LSmate anyways. Ppl come and go way too fast those days, and often sell account. Also you won't die on the street if you don't have gil in a MMO. If it's real life close relationship ppl such as wife maybe can, since I can probably get some benefit from it. But someone I never meet irl? Get real, 99% of player isn't going to farm 3 billion worth of gil to get them relic when they're going to change LS or quit/sell account someday.


I simply added it in because the fact he constantly says events have shit for gear does annoy me due to the fact he seemingly ignores all gear that MNK can not use. Perhaps if he were to use another job, he may learn to gear it, and then he could see their use. The remark was not so much to say "Go play some other job even if you don't want to just because you have the money to!" but more to say "If you wanted to you could have even put the money to use like this, so that you may see why gear from events is good, and even give you more to do in the game as you would have more rewards you actually see worth your time.

He plays MNK, and not interested in playing other jobs, thus it's not illogical that X event is worthless for him to do. Back then when I tried to make a NNI static, I couldn't convince a BRD to come SCH for us too, because all the NNI gear he isn't interested even though his other jobs can use it.

I don't see there's a big problem of playing and gearing for 1 job, and not doing event or doesn't care about event for gears his job can't use. Some ppl likes to grind all the situational gears for one single favorite job that only shines in very, very VERY rare situations. Some ppl would rather skip all those situational gears for more inv and resources for more jobs for broader and wider access for different events. Different ppl different strokes, just because you would rather spend more resource on different jobs, doesn't mean everyone would enjoy it, nor make you "smarter".

If you feel annoyed because someone doesn't care about other jobs, why don't you just ignore? You're just way too easily affected emotionally by others opinion.

I started my legion group and went through all the mental torture for it so I can get snapshot feet, which doesn't make a damn difference in terms of performance without 3rd pt tool. I already got it but still experience mental torture for making full ally every week(since I can't just bail after I get my shit). And guess what? First page of reply on this tread told me Gallu drop is worthless when I started everything and went through a lot just for it.

Do I get annoyed? No. Because different gears have different value in different player's mind. Why would I get annoyed if the gear I value a lot is worthless in another player's mind and vice versa? It's not like he takes my valueable gear away just by thinking that way. If I disagree with his POV, I simply state my opinion and that's it.

Maybe you liked X gear, and Pchan doesn't care about the gear you value a lot, but why does it matter to you? X gear is still in your inventory and many ppl already explained why other gear isn't worthless too. If someone thinks X gear is uselss, explain why it's useful. But really no point to tell others to play another job they're not going to care anyways.




."So your not using Final Heaven anyways, making your Afterglow pointless...

Relic afterglow is a lot harder to take advantage than empy afterglow. One way I think that can work is before you pop the NM(probably a pop NM like VW or ADL), you use Final Heaven on another fodder and get afterglow, so when NM is popped all pt member gets afterglow for a while.

Also in an acc way under cap situaitons, if you pt with 4 other DDs and nobody close to capping acc, final heaven may*(I'm not 100% sure about this though, need math) be worth using over merit WS just so that everyone else gets acc and increase a lot of output, considering acc is one of the most important melee state, the increase dmg from 4 other DD may add up more than the WS dmg lose from using Final Heaven.

However, it's Pchan's weapon, so how he take advantage of it is his business and he is the one that should worry about it, not you nor me. If he can't take advantage, then he wasted effort/time and it's as simple as that. Not like the effort/time/gil he wasted is your gil/time.

[Byrth]

It's his time to spend as he wants. Now his weapon glows! That's a lot of dedication and effort. Two guys with 3 accounts each farming for 2 hours a night to make many times the amount of gil (or at least value) that most people in game will ever see? Awesome.

Also, it's better for himself, his server, and everyone else that he got his gil by farming Marrows rather than Cruor farming. Cruor farming would have inflated his server's economy and pumped the price of marrows up much more substantially for other buyers.

[MarkovChain]

So your not using Final Heaven anyways, making your Afterglow pointless...

Mdk is which means I'm getting the afterglow boohoo. You're slow.

[Demon6324236]

Funny how we went from talking about how gear from Legion is good or useful, to me judging others & being hypocritical because of my general outlook on Afterglow in response to what Arcon said... Suppose I should have just said Afterglow is meaningless to me in every way and would not change my outlook at what I perceive as someones ignorance toward gear.


He plays MNK, and not interested in playing other jobs, thus it's not illogical that X event is worthless for him to do. Back then when I tried to make a NNI static, I couldn't convince a BRD to come SCH for us too, because all the NNI gear he isn't interested even though his other jobs can use it.

I don't see there's a big problem of playing and gearing for 1 job, and not doing event or doesn't care about event for gears his job can't use. Some ppl likes to grind all the situational gears for one single favorite job that only shines in very, very VERY rare situations. Some ppl would rather skip all those situational gears for more inv and resources for more jobs for broader and wider access for different events. Different ppl different strokes, just because you would rather spend more resource on different jobs, doesn't mean everyone would enjoy it, nor make you "smarter".Your right, not everyone is interested in gear for every job. Going back to what he originally said that caused me to post the gear that stands out when I look through Legions rewards, was this.


Reward wise, legion is actually pretty balanced IMO. The fact that Gallu/Rex on wave 3 has 100% drop slot pretty much offers good reward for more effort.Which ? And for what job ? The entire thing looked like "a pile of worthless crap or sidegrades in certain situation that never happen" kind of gear, when they released it. Meteor and arise serve no purpose in the game and if you ever want some they cost 5 M at bazaars (2 dynamis run farming if you suck).

The only reason I don't do it is because the drops are crap. The event seems to be an excuse to make arise/meteor drop or skilling up crafts. If SE wants people to have interest they need to give great stuff for every job first, which you don't seem to emphasize in your post. Aside from that I entirely agree with the other parts. However I fear that the incoming embrava and PD nerf is going to end up in a trivialisation of the event such has displacers for voidwatch.

Another threat is going to be the new salvage gear probably (both because of quality and player friendly environement).

Let's be honest ?To me this post looks to imply he is judging all gear, not simply MNKs actually. The underlined statement is what leads me to think that is what he was saying. Either way I don't care much anymore.


Mdk is which means I'm getting the afterglow boohoo. You're slow.

Mdk is using VS, your getting the afterglow from VS, not Spharai, thus making the afterglow on Spharai unused & pointless at that time, unless your WSing with Final Heaven, its not doing anything, unless I misunderstood how Afterglow works.



My spacebar broke a few days ago & I have been wasting my time posting on here to reply in a pointless argument to explain what I think of afterglow, you all can continue with your talking about Legion. I agree it should be easier to pull a group together, as otherwise I will probably never do the content, past that I don't care much, Ill miss out on some of the best gear for my RDM unless they make it available otherwise, which will hurt me, but nothing I can really do at this point. I think Legion was designed poorly anyways due to the reliance of PD & Embrava, however at the same time I understand why it was made in that way, its because the playerbase would use them anyways and make it easy. Thats about all I have to say on the topic really.

[Monchat]

So you think making 15 relics is not stupid, and making one afterglow is stupid. That's your opinion. I think it's the other way around. Why? People make multiple relics or an after glow for show off. Making a relic is not an accomplishment anymore; I'm going as far as saying that making a relic at level 75 was more an accomplishement than making a glowing one today; with the speed at which I farm marrows I could make one lv99 relic every 6 days basically. Cool story? I'll be the 1,000's person to do that relic weapon.

Btw, I contemplated making a mythic instead, because even though they all are inferior to empy or relic depending on job, except SAM and DRG, making a mythic is harder than making a glowing weapon: if I started now, I would not get it for another 6 months, because it requires do do so many things every day with 3 to 6 man (Nyzul, assaults, einherjar,ZNM, farming alexandrites) : you're looking at least at 2h pr day for 6 months. Instead I could use those 2 hours a day to make 2 more glowing weapons.

[MarkovChain]

yeah honestly if you are good at farming adl and sell marrows, alexandrites farming is a joke ("only" 500M or 36 marrows), so in reality the hardest thing to do would be an afterglow mythic. Too bad they all suck kindof.

[Kalifa]

Dont know where else to post this but was wondering if there was a suggestions box type thread to post in. Either way I wanted to point out that the dev team should probably work on fixing the existing areas when adding Seekers of Adoulin. Would be nice to have some HNMS drop different gear and maybe get lvl uped. or add missions to all areas especially Aht Urghan since last I checked nobody goes there except for NEO runs. They really need to bring the game back as a whole. well I said my peace

[Byrth]

yeah honestly if you are good at farming adl and sell marrows, alexandrites farming is a joke ("only" 500M or 36 marrows), so in reality the hardest thing to do would be an afterglow mythic. Too bad they all suck kindof.

No one kills Pandemonium Warden anymore or I'd consider afterglowing Terpsichore! The weapon doesn't turn DNC into a demigod, but DNC is a job that thrives on swag so I think it's pretty justified. If you guys figure out a way triple-box PW, let me know, lol.

[Afania]

Funny how we went from talking about how gear from Legion is good or useful, to me judging others & being hypocritical because of my general outlook on Afterglow in response to what Arcon said... Suppose I should have just said Afterglow is meaningless to me in every way and would not change my outlook at what I perceive as someones ignorance toward gear.


This is more about you calling others selfish for making afterglow/worthless upgrade. I don't care if you think afterglow is useless and I will never put a gun in your head and force you to do it or convince you to do it, because it's your personal opinion. I don't care if someone thinks afterglow is awesome accomplishment because that's his opinion and not mine. I don't care about whether pchan is ignorance toward gear or not, because it's also your opinion and his opinion towards gear. I don't care if you call greedy LS leader who slaving others to make gil selfish or ppl who only ask for help but never help back selfish because that does fits the meaning of selfish.

Afterglow is simply an expensive situational upgrade for me and that's it. But whether ppl do it for standing glow in PJ, or ppl do it for improving performance in mind is none of my concern.


But I disagree with you calling ppl selfish for making afterglow with their own gil, because to an extend that implys me, and majority of players who doesn't hand out gil and buys very situational gear that almost never have a use selfish too. And that's direct towards person, not job/gear. Calling a job/gear worthless is different from calling other ppl selfish for spending gil.

Anyways back to legion ._.

[Glamdring]

a very good way for SE to look at addressing the difficulty of Mul is to make the "required" gear (and a good player can overcome that requirement) drop from the earlier halls with sufficient regularity that a group that does the work can see sufficient players reach the point of gearing for Mul with a month or 2 of play for sufficient members to beat Mul. Yes, that means adjusting drop rates, not an SE fave activity. Point is, if you do the work, beat the content, and learn to be a tight crew then the end goal should be acheivable, but that's not necessarily the case with legion. I know a couple of groups that run, and knowing the players involved I have a pretty good idea of the skill level; it doesn't seem right that the below average group is doing just as well as the well above average group. But if you measue success by the reward accumulation, they are.

Personally, I like bringing back a big, alliance based system. I do think that Mul (and a couple others) scaling adjustment to the 18-36 alliance thing hasn't been properly implemented, and the number of Mul defeats for 18s seems to bear that out. So basically, address the earlier drop rates and reexamine the scaling mechanism.

[Nala]

Just quick replying to OP, i would love to see legion further adjusted especially with incoming PD and Embrava nerfs, but as it stands my current linkshell is super low man, even with our mules we wouldn't have enough people to take on Legion.

That and other then the honor's the rewards seem somewhat lackluster, not to say there isnt gear i want from legion.

[wish12oz]

My new pimpass afterglow spharai is benefiting from +5% crit from mdk's afterglow (all this because final heaven sux)

Know what would of benefited the two of you more? Using some of that gil to buy Neo Nyzul drops because you can't beat the event on your own.

Neo Nyzul gear > useless glowing.

[saevel]

I) I understand the "other events" thing, and I suppose for some groups with limited event time it's a matter of what other remaining goals people have unfulfilled. To me, Legion is where you go to do those final tweaks on jobs once you have most everything else. And I never advocate doing Legion instead of Neo-Nyzul, if it comes down to a choice amongst limited gameplay time.

II) The effort/reward thing I can understand as well, but only to a point:

a) If "time" is the issue, the event is 30 minutes. Assuming a LS has 18 regularly-showing people (which you likely have if you are running events like Prov Watcher), Legion takes as much time or less than those other events. It is a decent complement to ADL runs. Indeed, once a group gets experience, they can just farm lower chambers for trophies and do a Mul run each time they meet, which has 90-95% of the worthwhile drops in Legion. The whole thing takes about 1.5 hours, which is about as much time as your average /shout Prov Watcher group takes for drop rates a fraction of the size. Arguably, 1.5 hours for access to the above list of drops is actually a BETTER effort/reward ratio than the constantly disappointing Prov Watcher, especially when certain stuff like Meteor/Arise has a 100% drop slot. People tend to go home with SOMETHING in my Legion runs, unlike Prov Watcher where they just go home with hatred toward Tanaka.

b) If "hassle/headache" is the issue (i.e., the X-factor) I can understand that much more. Leading one of these runs can be challenging, and there are nights I just don't want to deal with it in my LS. Again, it's all a matter of who you have in your group. Most of the people in both my LS and the side group with which I run are hungry for new events and love the adrenaline rush Legion can give. They don't consider it a hassle or a headache.

III) As for rewards and Pchan's continuing zeal to justify not doing the event, they have been discussed ad nauseum. There are no groundbreaking pieces in Legion, except maybe for SMN. For most people, there are undeniable upgrades (however slight) for people who have everything else. Pchan just listing that "stuff fails" does not, in and of itself, make something fail. He has thankfully conceded the usefulness of Esper Earring, Ngen Seraweels, and Duplus Grip, but he has no conception that someone who plays BLU might get use out of an A'as Circlet, or that a BLM might want a Maniacus Sash, or that a DRK might want Striga Crown, or that certain melee can benefit from Wurrukatte Boots and Huginn Gambieras, or that if everybody took his advice and didn't do the event there would not BE a stream of buyable Legion drops on the AH or in peoples' bazaars (especially Meteor/Arise since Prov Watcher is notoriously stingy). Instead, we get a constant and unending stream of dead-end MNK-skewed ad hominem jabs.

I'm not pchan lol. I mentioned that event is largely side-grades or slight upgrades / situation pieces. If you have members who want it then it's perfectly fine to do so. LS's exist to get members gear and to provide a pool of resources to execute more difficult content. If a LS's member base wants stuff from legion and is willing to put in the effort to obtain it, then obviously the answer is to do it.

We have three event days per week. Due to us being compromised of both NA and EU members attendance can be sketchy at every day except Sunday. Myself playing from the KST/JST region doesn't help that fact. Wednesdays are typically split into NA and EU sub-events that focus on ABC farming and ADL pop set farming. Drunken vent friday's tend to be mostly EU with the NA's showing up later as they get off work, so we do whatever we have the members for, kind of a wild car day. That leaves epic marathon sundays for our events, typically double PW, ADL killing (if we didn't do it Friday), Arch Omega / Ultima, and whatever else the membership wants dead. We've done 12~18 Bismark / Morta / Rex's before, or just did a Jeuno T4~T6 full clear (for newer members). To fit in legion we'd have to axe some things that members want.

Now things like NNI / Meebles and such happen all the time, usually Saturdays or whenever members organize their own statics. Though for a long time we were bringing our members through NNI to get them gear from there.

The only drops worth a damn from Legion come from Mul which is a Rag zerg fest and requires pretty specific setups to pull off. Your looking at four clears per Mul run at 30m each so 2.5hrs per Mul. This wouldn't be bad if it wasn't for the horde of SMN's you need to bring in with you along with the two to three SCH's. It's an event where you have 1 DD party that you super buff then abuse PD / Alacrity stun cycling to make the NM's do nothing while you beat them down with impunity. It's doable but a royal PITA to setup. There is a reason all the legion gear is stupidly overpriced right now. PW runs are more entertaining then Legion which is pretty much "deny the NM all action or die".

[MarkovChain]

No one kills Pandemonium Warden anymore or I'd consider afterglowing Terpsichore! The weapon doesn't turn DNC into a demigod, but DNC is a job that thrives on swag so I think it's pretty justified. If you guys figure out a way triple-box PW, let me know, lol.

Triple box adl is possible if :

2 MNKs 1 SMN
on the SMN's mules you have a BRD and a COR.

However it's going to be long, you can pop maybe 4 per run if you are organised (like if you have a second SMN on the SMN).

With the marrows buy mulcibar, pb solved. Only need like 75 marrows.

[Monchat]

No one kills Pandemonium Warden anymore or I'd consider afterglowing Terpsichore! The weapon doesn't turn DNC into a demigod, but DNC is a job that thrives on swag so I think it's pretty justified. If you guys figure out a way triple-box PW, let me know, lol.

I thought it was 6 man zergable?

[Monchat]

Know what would of benefited the two of you more? Using some of that gil to buy Neo Nyzul drops because you can't beat the event on your own.

Neo Nyzul gear > useless glowing.

We have our nyzul items last I checked. Yes we 6 box nyzul. You think your are 1337 because you can kill level 80 EP mobs fast adn win 59~75% of the time with secret ninja techniques?

[Byrth]

I thought it was 6 man zergable?

It probably is, but that's only the final form. It takes like 15 minutes of killing the other forms and avoiding getting killed by lamps to start the final form (-aga III spam from 8 lamps still hurts). It's probably possible with 6 people (PLD, WHM, DDx3, BRD), but 6 people isn't triple-boxing.

The problem with just trying to buy Mulcibar is that there's very little / no supply of it. There's 1 in a bazaar picked up by guildwork on my server and 28 across servers (some obviously not for sale). For Marrows there are 37 in bazaars on my server and probably 24 that people are actually trying to sell. If I could kill PW solo, though, buying pops for him would be very easy. I bet I could get 50 Scoria at ~1mil each before my supply of people with pops they want to get rid of dries up.


PS. on topic:
Saeval, you only need to clear the first wave of the 4 starting chambers to do Mul, which takes <5 minutes after buffing with a good group. Our time record so far is about an 1:15 from our gather time to clearing Mul. On average I'd say it takes us about as long to do Legion as to get a group together and do Pandemonium Warden.

[saevel]

Saeval, you only need to clear the first wave of the 4 starting chambers to do Mul, which takes <5 minutes after buffing with a good group. Our time record so far is about an 1:15 from our gather time to clearing Mul. On average I'd say it takes us about as long to do Legion as to get a group together and do Pandemonium Warden.

Ehh I figured people would want to stay in and try to farm what little gear is in the lower ranks. I'm currently waiting to see what the expansion brings to determine if it's worth it or not, would hate to waste a ton of time / effort on stuff that is quickly outclassed. Just remember what gear this guy made in Abyssea vs what Tanaka had around before.

[Zirael]

No one kills Pandemonium Warden anymore or I'd consider afterglowing Terpsichore! The weapon doesn't turn DNC into a demigod, but DNC is a job that thrives on swag so I think it's pretty justified. If you guys figure out a way triple-box PW, let me know, lol.
On my server there's a group shouting daily for ADL 4-7x~ kill, offering all but marrows as freelot and they seem to be gathering enough people to pull it off every time. If people are willing to help you get 55-105M in exchange for a chance of lotting junk from ADL, I can't imagine anyone having trouble gathering 6 shouted people to take down PW, which actually drops decent atma and sellable town gear. 150~ kills sucks, but I'd see bigger bottleneck in tedious popset making, rather than gathering people for the final fight. Having infinite patience/time, you can pretty much 'solo' the trial.
http://imageshack.us/a/img211/742/adlshout.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/211/adlshout.gif/)

[Afania]

Ehh I figured people would want to stay in and try to farm what little gear is in the lower ranks. I'm currently waiting to see what the expansion brings to determine if it's worth it or not, would hate to waste a ton of time / effort on stuff that is quickly outclassed. Just remember what gear this guy made in Abyssea vs what Tanaka had around before.

That's pretty against the concept of MMO, gear will always get outclassed. More important thing is to experience the event while ppl still do it. It's actually a pretty fun event if gathering ppl(on top of dealing with old member quitting FFXI everyday and new member kept making mistake due to lack of experience)isn't such huge pain in the ass.

If Legion gear really get outclassed, that means it will just be even harder to gather a group to do it than it is now. I want more ppl to do legion so we can get enough to enter, not less ;(

[Demon6324236]

Some gear from Legion will likely never be beaten for certain jobs. Part of the list I gave for instance included Abjurations. Iaso Head is the best Curing head there is, it even tops the AF3+2 head for WHM but is for most mage jobs, including RDM & SCH. Items like that I don't think will ever be surpassed honestly. I mean Arka IV+Heka's+Iaso Mitra=50% Cure Potency with -24% Cure Cast Time (so the Mitra is augmented) and thats just 3 pieces of gear. However that doesn't change the fact that in time Legion will be even harder to get people for because the amount of gear that is truly at the top, and worth the effort, is limited. Almost all current content faces the danger of people losing interest once the expansion & new content is released because it all requires Alliances, and as time goes on, finding 18 people to do it will get more & more impossible.

[Afania]

Some gear from Legion will likely never be beaten for certain jobs. Part of the list I gave for instance included Abjurations. Iaso Head is the best Curing head there is, it even tops the AF3+2 head for WHM but is for most mage jobs, including RDM & SCH. Items like that I don't think will ever be surpassed honestly. I mean Arka IV+Heka's+Iaso Mitra=50% Cure Potency with -24% Cure Cast Time (so the Mitra is augmented) and thats just 3 pieces of gear. However that doesn't change the fact that in time Legion will be even harder to get people for because the amount of gear that is truly at the top, and worth the effort, is limited. Almost all current content faces the danger of people losing interest once the expansion & new content is released because it all requires Alliances, and as time goes on, finding 18 people to do it will get more & more impossible.

That's hard to say, if the new direction game is heading wants to outdate gear faster than currently is, then it may really get outdated. Although personally I don't like new event outdates old gear every 3 months, many WoW player complained about it, that "you feel like you never do endgame before when they outdate old gears and stand on same level as newer players". I'd rather have certain piece of gear stays meaningful(in terms of performance of course). That you time you spent in this game should be more than just an experience, but certain trophy that stays after every update too.


Regarding finding ally of 18, finding a VW ally is 100 times faster and easier to 18/18 than legion. I can go to PJ and do a T3 /shout, and I promise that ally will fill up in 30 min~1hr. I can go to PJ and do a Bismarck/Rex/Prov/shout, and it's going to fill up in 30 min~1hr too, last Prov /shout pt I made it filled up in less than 30 min, and I still got /tell after we were full.

Does Prov and VW gives better reward than legion? Certainly not. The only Prov reward I ever got that I can use is just sword/Wanion belt/T.abj hands, everything else I want never drop. And I do WAY more prov than legion. I never get any body/cell from Kaggen and Akvan, I got Toci from Pil after 120+ kills, but that's the only body I got in gold chest from all that T3 I've done. I never get any HQ dagger from qilin, and out of 300~500 Zilart T3 I've done I only got 6 pouchs 34 metal(avg 5 metals per pouch D; ) total and that's not even good gil. Most of the VW drop are not super awesome game breaking gear too. Most of the VW gears are nothing but situaional idle piece, and most can be replaced with better ones. Some are WS piece for a few WS, and glowing dagger is pretty much only good for none magian jobs. Most of VW armor are outclassed after Nyzul v2 and Legion HQ augment come out, and majority of VW weapons are nothing but glowing toys(besides glowing GK I think).


So why does VW ally still fill out fast and legion ally hard to 18/18? Despite VW ex/rare isn't THAT good and gil you earn from it isn't THAT awesome? Personally I can never understand why ppl would rather do Prov and get nothing, than do legion for higher chance to get something.

I think one of the reason is simply just because VW is easy, so anyone can do it. When it's easy and accessable to the majority, and doesn't require much concentration, dealing with attendance, dealing with wipe, majority of player tend to do this, even if the reward isn't as good. Some VW requires higher output to have smooth run, such as Rex and Bismarck. In that case ppl just buy weakened items and get it done.

Some ppl told me, outright in my face, that they don't like legion because:

1. They don't like to wipe/fail, and legion has higher chance to wipe/fail if one person make mistake. They'd rather go back to dyna farm or VW all day for less reward than do legion which requires higher concentration level and higher chance to fail.

2. They want to be able to lot ex items on 1st run, instead of collecting points via attendance. Note that all our rare are sell split, so it's actually a lot friendlier to newer member. But unless I change rule to everyone seacom 1 item(and that may cause more older member to leave), it's hard to convince new member to stick for multiple runs because they want items right away.

3. Death of elitistism play style: Majority of player still prefer dyna. Although Dyna probably offers better reward/effort ratio, but it doesn't give you some of the better gear in other slot that's not weapon. If they already have a relic, they farm 2nd relic, if they have 2 relics, they farm 3rd relic. Legion reward are there to make your 1 job stronger and push your job to elite tier, but majority of player isn't into elite play style. They don't care about getting a duplus grip for their DD, nor getting L.head for their WHM. They'd much rather want more relic for more jobs despite their WHM only have 30% cure potency and their relic/empy DD doesn't parse high.

Also, having elite geared job have little to no impact in other event except legion. You can win prov with gimp DD and gimp WHM, you can win VW with gimp DD and gimp WHM, you can win NNI with gimp DD and you can certainly do every lv 75 content/Meebles/old and new limbus with gimp DD and gimp WHM, so why bother to gear your WHM with something like L.head when your WHM already functional with 30% cure potency? Why bother to get a duplus grip for your DD when you can already win with Pole grip or even Uther's?? I pt with countless Uther's DD in VW T3 everyday and still win!


Some ppl are interested in legion, but they either don't have right jobs, or not going to commit to an event and would rather just come and go(which obviously just makes the event harder if ppl come and go every time). Some ppl may be interested in items, but as soon as they have to stick around to get enough point to lot, they would rather not do it and give up on the items.

It's just that, post Abyssea era, on top of majority of FFXI player no longer a student and start to have jobs/family, old big HNMLS mentality became minority. Gear your job to elite level by doing hardcore event, stick in a group and pop every event, wait until you get enough point so you can lot items, can't just come and go randomly, have to play a job you don't like or have to prepare certain gear set for event and so on, those factor aren't very friendly for majority of players nowadays. That's why I believe unless FFXI playerbase increase, which I doubt will happen, this sort of event shouldn't require this many players. SE can make the gear a lot better all day, but doesn't mean majority of player will bother with them when they don't care as much.

And all the elite DD I know of, pretty much just quit FFXI and go to XIV or GW2 when they got everything they want in this game due to lack of goals. Leaving this event even harder to gather ppl.

SE either need to make reward/effort ratio better than Dyna, or just make the event requires less player.

[Mahoro]

It's just that, post Abyssea era, on top of majority of FFXI player no longer a student and start to have jobs/family, old big HNMLS mentality became minority. Gear your job to elite level by doing hardcore event, stick in a group and pop every event, wait until you get enough point so you can lot items, can't just come and go randomly, have to play a job you don't like or have to prepare certain gear set for event and so on, those factor aren't very friendly for majority of players nowadays. That's why I believe unless FFXI playerbase increase, which I doubt will happen, this sort of event shouldn't require this many players. SE can make the gear a lot better all day, but doesn't mean majority of player will bother with them when they don't care as much.



I'm fine with one event in the game rewarding this list of criteria.

[Monchat]

Iaso Head is the best Curing head there is, it even tops the AF3+2 head for WHM but is for most mage jobs, including RDM & SCH. Items like that I don't think will ever be surpassed honestly. I mean Arka IV+Heka's+Iaso Mitra=50% Cure Potency with -24% Cure Cast Time (so the Mitra is augmented) and thats just 3 pieces of gear.

I agree but it falls in side grades category (small upgrades or invo -1). You already have cure casting time -% on asceco's choker, zenith pumps, heka's, af3+2 legs; add to that max merits, fast cast on earring, ring , belt, cape and SJ, and my whm casts cures at 20% of the gauge or so (almost instant). There is probably a lower cap too.

Also it's the same pb with the new abjurations. The NQ are worthless. The HQ are slight upgrades, and some of the augmented HQs are good. so you have to find an HQ of the corresponding cursed item then pray to get the HQ3 augment. That's plain retarded.

Edit1: and I forgot there is also fast cast +1 on grip and a new -2% cure time grip from the AH.

Edit 2: switching arka IV with arka I im still casting at 20%.

[Demon6324236]

Well the Iaso Mitra itself is only really a Side Grade on WHM, admittedly 1% cure potency & 10 Healing Magic which doesn't make it amazing. However that only goes for WHM, when looking at options for RDM or SCH the Paean/Iaso Mitras are the only Cure Potency head pieces, making them very important for those jobs. I myself play RDM as a melee job as much as a mage, and so far as I know Iaso is actually a requirement to cap Cure Potency without needing to change out your weapons, and sacrifice your TP. Admittedly I know some of the gear is just a bunch of side-grades but really in the end it becomes side-grades for certain jobs, and upgrades for others, however I feel Iaso Mitra is probably the best case of this I know of due to my main knowledge being about mages, or more specifically, RDM.

[Waldrich]

Square Enix answer: We created this event to make u guys mindlessly farm it while we do our expansion + other revamped events.

[Monchat]

the expansion will equally suck. Or you mean they have been working on adoulin since WoTG?

[Demon6324236]

There are 2 ways I see it happening. Either A:They have been pouring almost all their time & ability into making this expansion really good, so the best they could give us to hold us over is rehashed content from before, so we would have something to do, but it wouldn't take them to much time to give it to us, and wouldn't detract from the real work. Or B:They have ran out of ideas, and are giving us rehashed content to reflect that, so when the Expansion pops up & is like all other content, we aren't all to disappointed.

If its A, then I understand it & would actually be happy so long as its good, its like when I make Pot Roast, it takes about 11 hours to make, but its badass in the end, if I get hungry before its done though I eat some left overs in the fridge, sure they may not be as good as when 1st cooked, but they aren't meant to be, they are just meant to hold me over till my Pot Roast is done, then I can really eat the good food! :)

[MarkovChain]

At least we already know that the 2 new jobs will sucks.

[Nala]

Not sure why i clicked view P-chan's post... not that I was expecting much from him though.

[Monchat]

they said they will not have artifact 1 2 or 3 nor empyrean weapon/relic. what do you expect lol.

[Demon6324236]

Huh? Getting your facts a bit mixed... They said no Emp/Relic, that is correct, however they will have Artifact, Relic, & Emp gear, with Mythic weapons.

Edit:
Greetings,

To answer the question about "why can't these new jobs also use relics?"

The main reason why rune fencers and geomancers will be unable to equip Relic and Empyrean weapons is because those weapons were created and balanced around the jobs that existed at the time. This is also the reason that blue mage, corsair, puppetmaster, dancer and scholar were never given access to relic weapons.

However, as Mythic weapons are job-specific, it won't be a problem to design a weapon that is best suited specifically for rune fencers or geomancers.

As an additional note, when we release content for these new jobs in Seekers of Adoulin, they will be able to earn the equivalent of Relic equipment, Empyrean equipment, and Mythic weapons. We simply used these terms to make it clearer and we haven't officially decided on what names these types of equipment will take.I would assume they will get AF as well, seeing as all jobs do.

[Afania]

There are 2 ways I see it happening. Either A:They have been pouring almost all their time & ability into making this expansion really good, so the best they could give us to hold us over is rehashed content from before, so we would have something to do, but it wouldn't take them to much time to give it to us, and wouldn't detract from the real work. Or B:They have ran out of ideas, and are giving us rehashed content to reflect that, so when the Expansion pops up & is like all other content, we aren't all to disappointed.

If its A, then I understand it & would actually be happy so long as its good, its like when I make Pot Roast, it takes about 11 hours to make, but its badass in the end, if I get hungry before its done though I eat some left overs in the fridge, sure they may not be as good as when 1st cooked, but they aren't meant to be, they are just meant to hold me over till my Pot Roast is done, then I can really eat the good food! :)

Or putting all their resources on 14, a game with only less than 50% of active player currently playing ;)

[Demon6324236]

Or putting all their resources on 14, a game with only less than 50% of active player currently playing ;)

I was meaning for the FFXI team, not SE as a whole, I think they fact they are redoing FFXIV the way they are alone shows they are putting more resources into it than into this, after all, this game is done, and for now, nothing much has been added, mostly just lv99 retakes on lv75 content & the word of a new expansion we have seen almost nothing or, and know little about really.