Red Mage defensive

[ffxititanplayer]

Sorry if this has already been posted before (x amount of times) but personally i would love a raise to parry and evasion skills. There is no reason for us to have such crazy low ranks in these. We should at least be on par with blue mage for these if not warrior. While we are at it, can we at least have shield skill equal to white mage? With slightly higher shield skill we might get a little use out of shield mastery...maybe...

Anyways the point is if we could get some more more parry and/or evasion that would be awesome. If you agree like my post.

[Crimson_Slasher]

We used to have shield skill more on par with warrior, who is the #2 for shield skill, Course apparently that made us too strong, running around with our shields, tanking everything under the sun, making us giggle as monsters bounced off us... Wait this isnt the paladin forums! Satire aside, i agree i think we need higher parry by a lot, being fencer based and all. And i would like our shield restored to prior "glory" too, even if it isnt likely to be a big improvement. Course likely we would get that too common "TOO POWERFUL!" response because skills are so unbalanced and no job has more than 1 A rated skill Except for the 11 or so that do, that said, i made a list of total skill points on each job.

Total skill values for each job at level 99! This is assuming no subjob, all skills capped.
WAR 6064 (1st!)
MNK 2621 (14th)
WHM 3308 (11th)
BLM 3553 (7th)
RDM 4802 (2nd)
THF 3537 (8th)
PLD 4605 (3rd)
DRK 4525 (4th)
BST 2863 (13th)
BRD 3521 (9th)
RNG 2912 (12th)
SAM 3367 (10th)
NIN 4477 (5th)
DRG 2521 (16th)
SMN 1793 (20th)
BLU 1931 (19th)
COR 2319 (17th)
PUP 2604* (15th)
DNC 2252 (18th)
SCH 4448^ (6th)

*Automaton not counted.
^Dark/Light arts skill maximums.

Now what this illustrates is having multiple mediocre skills or even "mid range skills" does not make an overpowered job. Blue mage is 2nd to last, and yet easily outclasses rdm (#2) in almost all fields. So i see no reason not to raise a few skillcaps for rdm, and possibly other jobs on the list. Not to mention we would need to go out of our way to skill those up anyway.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I have no problem with raising skillcaps, but offensive > defensive, easily, especially something like parry/shield.

[Mirage]

And even with all those combat skills, war's survivability is still miles behind rdm.

Now i'm not saying rdm couldn't need a buff, but I seriously don't think it's in their defence their weakness lies.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If survivability was an issue people would be bringing paladins, so defensive skill buff is nothing more than superfluous.

[ffxititanplayer]

I understand what you guys mean, its really more for sake of why the caps are so low compared to other jobs. We should have at least the parry and evasion of blue mage. I agree it's rather low priority but I would love to have square take a look at it .

[Ophannus]

RDM's defense is through magic primarily rather than defensive skills. BLU is a completely frontline mage whereas RDM was build to be kind of 50/50 backline/frontline indicated by only a few of BLU nukes being more than 10' range. RDM also has Stoneskin,Blink,Phalanx,Protect5/Shell5 all at once but BLU has to set those spells and keep them up which are MP intensive and inefficient duration.

Also RDM shouldn't have their weapon drawn unless solo because in hard fights or in a party they should be in pdt/mdt gear when they pull hate or when damage is inevitable. Most RDM don't use sword/shield except in rare cases; usually because dual wield is better for solo as /NIN (pdt swordx2 it up if going for survivability) only situation where sword+shield or dagger+shield is better is if you're RDM/BLM and AoE aeolian edging shit down with protect and cocoon up against multiple mobs(like soloing the Taurus BCNM).

tl;dr

RDM is extremely durable due to their gear selection(pdt/mdt) and spells(phalanx/stoneskin/protect5/gain-vit/blink/icespikes/bio III) probably one of the most durable jobs in the game, second only to PLD and only if they have relic/emp shield. Arguably more durable than MNK since MNK can't counter TP moves and when they don't counter they get hit hard as hell whereas a RDM/BLU could easily get over 1.3k defense, insane VIT, 50%PDT/25% MDT and ShellV to cap out MDT, MDB traits, 450+ Stoneskin, -35 damage from phalanx, potent paralyze from icespikes.

[Sunrider]

Doesn't really matter whether you're solo or not, no reason a B-rated sword/dagger user shouldn't have better Parrying and Shield. They could be bumped up to a C or B without harming anything.

[Ophannus]

Since when does having a B or C skill necessitate having better parrying/shield? WHM has B+ club which is better than our B- sword/shield and they have D in shield and NO parrying. RNG has B- in axe and B- in dagger and they have neither shield nor parrying. Your argument is weak.

[Sunrider]

I'll agree it isn't the most solid of premises, but of your above examples, WHM's specialty doesn't necessarily imply parrying (though I suppose it is possible to parry with a club), and while I totally support a better shield rating for WHM, it is still a job less associated with melee activity, and so might not be expected to have improved shield skill (but as I said, I fully support it). RNG might have B- axe and dagger, but it's primary function involves ranged attacks, in which neither shield nor parrying come into play.

Parrying is implied with sword (and dagger) use, both of which are associated with RDM. S-E's made as fair an attempt to offer us shield selection as any other melee gear, so an increased shield skill would follow as it's already a known function of the class.

[Ophannus]

while I totally support a better shield rating for WHM, it is still a job less associated with melee activity,
WHM is a better melee than RDM though so I still fail to see your argument. Hexa-Strike outclasses almost all of our WS except CDC, clubs have far higher base DMG than swords, WHM arguably has better haste pieces than us and can Enspell with Auspice. There is very little if anything that RDM has over WHM for meleeing.

BRD has a B- in Dagger too and they're a better melee than us(Marchx2,can wear Hecatomb gear as well as sky god gear) but they have E in parrying. You can argue that it isn't BRD's primary job to melee but I could say neither is RDM's.

[saevel]

WHM is a better melee than RDM though so I still fail to see your argument. Hexa-Strike outclasses almost all of our WS except CDC, clubs have far higher base DMG than swords, WHM arguably has better haste pieces than us and can Enspell with Auspice. There is very little if anything that RDM has over WHM for meleeing.

BRD has a B- in Dagger too and they're a better melee than us(Marchx2,can wear Hecatomb gear as well as sky god gear) but they have E in parrying. You can argue that it isn't BRD's primary job to melee but I could say neither is RDM's.

Umm what....

This might of been sort true at 75 but WHM is severely crushed in the gear department. Clubs / Hammers suck for DPS, seriously their delay vs damage ratio is the worst in the game. Hexa is ~ok~ compared to the other WS's now available. It only has a 20% STR and MND Mod. Realmrazor is MUCH better WS, it copies fTP, has a stupid fTP to start with but is seven hit (eight with off hand) and 100% MND. This puts it in the boat as asuran fists where DA gear does absolutely nothing for it and it HIGHLY sensitive to accuracy. At capped accuracy you'll only hand all eight hits 66% of the time.

RDM has much better melee gear now then we did at 75, not nearly as good as it should be but definitely better then WHM (and to some extent BRD, depending). For Sword we have CDC which is really nice with Almace, otherwise you have Requiescat, a five hit ws (6 with off hand) that copies fTP, starts at 1.0 and has 100% MND WSC. Unfortunately it also has a -20% attack penalty which cripples it on anything VT or above. Swords also have really good damage vs delay ratio's something that is enhanced by RDM's native enspells. Daggers are also an option, though RDM doesn't have access to the STR dagger we do have the next best thing, Aluh Jambiya. Exenterator is a four hit (five with off hand) WS, doesn't copy fTP and is 100% AGI WSC. It's has lower potential then Requiescat but doesn't suffer from an attack penalty. Then you also have Mercy Stroke, one hit (two with off hand) 3.0 fTP 60% STR WSC. At 95 your looking at a 25% damage boost, at 99 a 40% damage boost. Having seen a 99 Mandau in action I can attest to how epically amazing it is, really high damage for it's delay.

Bard is in a special category as gear-wise it's a little weaker then RDM but not by much. Their saving grace is their buffs are so powerful that they make up for the gear deficient and them some. They also have an angle lure for 3% haste in their ranged slot (changing instruments doesn't reset TP). Relic +2 body is stupid awesome, +25 to attack / acc and +10 to STR /VIT/DEX/AGI makes it their best body piece for pretty much TP and WS. BRD can also use the magian daggers so the STR one is the obvious choice with a 99 Mandau. BRD suffers from what 75 era RDM did but on a slightly bigger scale. Songs take FOREVER to cast and have a relatively short duration. A BRD/NIN will spend quite a bit of time singing their buffs and that will cut into their swinging time. Same situation with a RDM cycling haste.

Anyhow, wanted to dispel the "WHM is better melee then RDM" crap. It was only semi-true at 75 because WHM's could reach the haste cap with blessed+1 gear and RDM's couldn't. Clubs and staves both are pretty bad delay vs damage, though the Crystal staff is pretty decent for Shattersoul spam (100% INT mod for the mages is a good thing due to the sheer amount of INT mages can get). Actually made me wish RDM had a B in staff skill, would make for some interesting builds.

-=Edit=-

Read your post again ... you seriously think RDM has a B- in sword / dagger? RDM's been a B (250@75) since long before I started playing (2003). BRD is B- in dagger (240@75) and C- in sword (220 @75). WHM is a B+ in club (256@75) and a C+ in staff (230). After 75 all skills of C or higher scaled by the EXACT same amount. The difference between B- and B @99 is 10 points, the difference between B and B+ is 6.

@99

A+: 424
A/A-:417

B+: 404
B: 398
B-: 388

C+: 378
C: 373
C-: 368
D: 334

@99 The difference between an A+ weapon and a B weapon is 26 skill or 26 attack and 23 accuracy. That comes out to a 11.5% hit rate difference, not exactly a big difference these days. Skill levels have very little meaning, WAR has a B+ in great sword vs an A+ in great axe, yet many wield that Wagnarok to amazing effect. Heck even without Rag a WAR can swing a Jingang GSWD Res build for some pretty insane damage (Legendary status weapons are obvious superior). So stop getting fixated on skill level and instead look at JA / JT and buffs / gear available.

[Babekeke]

This might of been sort true at 75 but WHM is severely crushed in the gear department. Clubs / Hammers suck for DPS, seriously their delay vs damage ratio is the worst in the game.

OK, let me stop you right there. Let's have a look at what are considered the best weapons for all 3 weapons you're comparing here:

Almace 99: DMG 70 DPS 18.75
Mandau 99: DMG 55 DPS 18.75
Mjollnir 99: DMG 93 DPS 18.12

Almace and Mandau have a 3.4% higher DPS, whereas Mjollnir has a 32.8% higher base damage than Almace and a 69% higher base dmg than Mandau.

Off the AH options:

Apaisante +1 (Sword): 60 DMG 16.22 DPS
Vejovis Wand +1 (Club): 56 DMG 16 DPS
Aluh Jambiya (Dagger): 51 DMG 15.22 DPS

Not a great deal in them, with dagger being a little way behind, but having better stats in the STR and att. Certainly not worthy of the statement:

Clubs / Hammers suck for DPS, seriously their delay vs damage ratio is the worst in the game.

Trial weapons are very close for dagger and club, though sword pulls away a little here.

Shikargar (Sword) DMG 61 DPS 15.91
Tutunui (Club) DMG 52 DPS 14.86
Thokcha (Dagger) DMG 47 DPS 14.84

[saevel]

OK, let me stop you right there. Let's have a look at what are considered the best weapons for all 3 weapons you're comparing here:

Almace 99: DMG 70 DPS 18.75
Mandau 99: DMG 55 DPS 18.75
Mjollnir 99: DMG 93 DPS 18.12

Almace and Mandau have a 3.4% higher DPS, whereas Mjollnir has a 32.8% higher base damage than Almace and a 69% higher base dmg than Mandau.

Off the AH options:

Apaisante +1 (Sword): 60 DMG 16.22 DPS
Vejovis Wand +1 (Club): 56 DMG 16 DPS
Aluh Jambiya (Dagger): 51 DMG 15.22 DPS

Not a great deal in them, with dagger being a little way behind, but having better stats in the STR and att. Certainly not worthy of the statement:


Trial weapons are very close for dagger and club, though sword pulls away a little here.

Shikargar (Sword) DMG 61 DPS 15.91
Tutunui (Club) DMG 52 DPS 14.86
Thokcha (Dagger) DMG 47 DPS 14.84

Should of added "with the exception of Relic Hammer".

And those are incorrect numbers. You'll eventually figure out where you messed up copying from wiki.

Here is a clue, Mandau crush's all of them in melee DPS.

[Babekeke]

And those are incorrect numbers. You'll eventually figure out where you messed up copying from wiki.

Here is a clue, Mandau crush's all of them in melee DPS.

OK, I have to concede to your holiness. I have no idea where I went wrong with the DPS figures, unless you're referring to the additional effect: poison.

I got the figures from BG wiki, and have now triple-checked them with wikipedia and ffxiah and they all say 18.75 for mandau and almace.

Unless you haven't looked since 75 and just assumed that Mandau is still the ruler of all that is DPS.

[saevel]

OK, I have to concede to your holiness. I have no idea where I went wrong with the DPS figures, unless you're referring to the additional effect: poison.

I got the figures from BG wiki, and have now triple-checked them with wikipedia and ffxiah and they all say 18.75 for mandau and almace.

Unless you haven't looked since 75 and just assumed that Mandau is still the ruler of all that is DPS.

Your allowing your desire to "prove someone wrong" to get ahead of your thinking. It's bad for you.

You forgot to include fSTR into those adjustments. fSTR makes a very large difference to any low delay / DMG weapon. fSTR adds a static amount of base damage irrespective of the weapons delay, the lower the delay the more fSTR adds overall. Also fSTR doesn't scale with higher DMG, only it's cap raises and at a very slow rate. The lower your weapons DMG the more impact fSTR will have on it's damage potential. Clubs delay are simply too high, it puts them in the worst DPS position out of all the weapon class's.

99 Mandau
DMG: 55 Delay 176 (Rank 6, fSTR cap 14)

To reach that +14 fSTR you would need 52 STR over the targets VIT. It turns Mandau into a 69DMG 176 Delay dagger, a 25.4% increase in base dps.

99 Mjollnir
DMG: 93 Delay 308 (Rank 10, fSTR cap 18)
To reach that +18 you would need 68 STR over the targets VIT. It would turn Mjol into a 111DMG 308 Delay club, a 19.3% increase. Yet lets be real, you are not going to be 68 STR over the targets VIT as a WHM on anything that gives you XP. At the EXACT same amount of +STR the Mandau gets the Mjol is now a 107DMG 308 Delay club, now only a 15% increase in base DPS.

To top it off, the Mandau has a 176 delay to the Moj's 308 delay or 75% faster. It gets a bigger damage boost and will utilize that boost more often then the Moj. 2H weapons get ridiculous in how little fSTR changes their damage output even when you take into account their significantly better gear. This also explains why the STR weapons tend to be the absolute best offhand for DW jobs.

Now what is the real Mandau DPS
69DMG 176 Delay, 23.52 DPS

Moj
111DMG 308 Delay, 21.62 DPS (Absolute best possible on TW targets)
107DMG 308 Delay, 20.84 DPS (exact same STR / VIT as the above dagger)

99 Almace
70 DMG 224 Delay (Rank 7, 15 fSTR cap for +56 STR over targets VIT)
85 DMG 224 Delay, 22.76 DPS (Absolute best)
84 DMG 224 Delay, 22.5 DPS (same STR / VIT as above)

99 Shikagar
61 DMG 230 Delay (Rank 6, 14 fSTR cap)
75 DMG 230 Delay, 19.56 DPS

99 Tutunui
52 DMG 210 Delay (Rank 5, 13 fSTR cap)
65 DMG 210 Delay, 18.57 DPS

And just for good measure
99 Wagnarok
143 DMG, 431 Delay (Rank 15 23 fSTR cap, +88 STR over VIT needed)
166 DMG, 431 Delay 23.1 DPS (absolute best case fighting TW mobs)

That is how little STR effects bigger DMG weapons. At +88STR it only moves it 16%.

-=Edit=-

I also left out what DW does to your DPS numbers. A weaker off hand weapon will result in the averaging of the two's damage. You find out DPS by ((DMG *60)/Delay), so it's pretty trivial to account for fSTR and DW effects.

[Ophannus]

BRD songs last quite a while with all the new Enhances Song Duration gear as well as Troubadour. Songs can last like 5ish minutes or so. Also Nightingale makes songs insta-cast.

[saevel]

BRD songs last quite a while with all the new Enhances Song Duration gear as well as Troubadour. Songs can last like 5ish minutes or so. Also Nightingale makes songs insta-cast.

Yes and now. Troubadour makes songs take FOREVER to cast, using Nightingale makes them normal speed again. That is why BRD's tend to stack those two when doing their buff rotations.

Take Minuet V for example, 8s cast time 24s recast, 2 min duration.

Troubadour makes it 12s cast time and 4min duration, Nightingale would knock it down to 6s, at 5/5 makes it something like 1~2s or so (not quite instant cast but close) checked and it's insta-cast at 5/5. I'm not a BRD so I'm not absolutely positive how much +duration they can get, our 99 G.horn BRD seems to get about ~7min on his songs. Those JA's are 10m recast so your going to have a set of songs without them, and if your a Dura BRD then your talking four songs at a time.

Puts BRD into an interesting position, they have access to most of the gear and weapons to make a decent hybrid DD, along with buffs, AoE CC and Elegy. Too bad this game has no real content that plays to that style.

[Demon6324236]

If you cap both, and use both, your buffs are instant, not normal speed.

[Crimson_Slasher]

If you cap both, and use both, your buffs are instant, not normal speed.

This here is true as far as i can tell, ive used both extensively lately myself and have been casting chainspell speeds, usually dont have time to see the song cast after swapping instruments even. Still though, there isnt short enough recast or long enough song recast to keep the abilities up fulltime when buffing, so i usually have to do a cycle of one up with N/T, and one or two with N/T down. Same applies to marcato sadly.

[Babekeke]

99 Mandau
DMG: 55 Delay 176 (Rank 6, fSTR cap 14)

To reach that +14 fSTR you would need 52 STR over the targets VIT. It turns Mandau into a 69DMG 176 Delay dagger, a 25.4% increase in base dps.

This is something I did not know. Thank you for explaining it rather than just saying 'you're missing something'.

Out of interest though, is there any info out there with the stats of mobs? I know that the info was found for greater colibri in the past, and now there are stats for a couple of abyssea NMs and maybe a VWNM or 2, but I'm more interested in the sort of thing that you might actually melee a RDM on (ok RDM could happily melee in Abyssea and it's not hard to cap any stat there), like dynamis mobs, both EP and DC. Is a mob's VIT on-par with say a Hume's VIT of that job and that level?


This here is true as far as i can tell, ive used both extensively lately myself and have been casting chainspell speeds, usually dont have time to see the song cast after swapping instruments even. Still though, there isnt short enough recast or long enough song recast to keep the abilities up fulltime when buffing, so i usually have to do a cycle of one up with N/T, and one or two with N/T down. Same applies to marcato sadly.

I get over 7 mins with N/T, over 3 mins without, so only ever need to do 1 without. The main issue now is that it's so fast I can sometimes end up casting in my pre-cast gear as my macro didn't have time to swap my gear.

[saevel]

Out of interest though, is there any info out there with the stats of mobs? I know that the info was found for greater colibri in the past, and now there are stats for a couple of abyssea NMs and maybe a VWNM or 2, but I'm more interested in the sort of thing that you might actually melee a RDM on (ok RDM could happily melee in Abyssea and it's not hard to cap any stat there), like dynamis mobs, both EP and DC. Is a mob's VIT on-par with say a Hume's VIT of that job and that level?

Studio Gobi and some other JP site had a good database for awhile. They figured out the formula SE used to determine base stats for monsters (Race / Class combos). You can kinda look it up

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Part/6371/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Part/6371/%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DgTo

http://www32.atwiki.jp/studiogobli/
Its (Main Rank + Sub Rank + Racial Bonus)
Take a Level 99/49 Goblin WAR/WAR
Goblins have E rank in VIT, WAR is D Rank in VIT,

Rank D is (3 + (Lv-1) * 0.35)
(37 + 19 + 32) = 88 VIT

That's just a guess though, often monsters will have small bonus's the developers insert. It'll get you in the same ballpark through.

Colibri are E rank VIT and considered RDM/RDM in general for stats
99/49 RDM would be E in VIT so E + E + E.
E is [3 + (Lv-1) * 0.30]
(32 + 17 + 32) = 81VIT.

So you can kinda ball park it out.

[Babekeke]

Thanks for that, I was just trying to look for a 'worst case scenario', but the table's fairly incomplete (I thought demons would be high on the VIT list) so the highest I can see is a Beetle, B VIT and PLD/PLD which I would assume PLD is A ranking. Therefore a lvl 99 Beetle has ~131 VIT.

However, I was talking Dynamis, and I don't see any beetles in dynamis apart from pets.

So let's go to dynamis buburimu and fight EP crabs. 103 VIT for lvl 80 crabs, assuming PLD is A ranking in VIT. 52 STR over the crabs VIT is 155. That's worst case scenario of course. Stay away from mnk and pld type mobs, especially crabs and beetles and you're golden. For that same Goblin at lvl 80 you're looking at 72 VIT, needing 122 STR to cap out fSTR on a Mandau.

Moral of the story seems to be stay away from mnk and pld mobs, particularly beeltes and crabs, unless you're busting some huge STR.

Edit: I now understand why those off-hand STR magian weapons are so raved about!

[Demon6324236]

Well really for RDM between Gain & STR Sword you have +36, I personally have 98 on my RDM/NIN, without counting normal TP gear such as Rajas/Brego Gloves, so decking out STR really doesn't seem all to hard imo.

In other news, out parsed an Emp MNK & a DRK on Aello yesterday, was hitting an average of 15% overall damage each fight which seemed fairly good.

[saevel]

Moral of the story seems to be stay away from mnk and pld mobs, particularly beeltes and crabs, unless you're busting some huge STR.

And think that we used to XP on Crabs / Beetles and were amazed at how low our XP rate was. Their fairly squishy to magic through with big family weakness's and low INT (fINT).


Edit: I now understand why those off-hand STR magian weapons are so raved about!
Yep for any 1H job the STR magian are the best option for two reasons. First being that 1H tends to have lowish attack compared to 2H, second being that fSTR effects 1H by a greater percentage the it does 2H. You can get negative fSTR if the monsters VIT is above your STR (typically through a stat down enfeeble), -10 to a 146 damage weapon isn't nearly as big as -10 to a 55 damage weapon. This also explains why STR merits are the best choice if you play any job other then pure mages.

The "High Defense" monsters in Dynamis you gotta worry about are the Fungars in Valk Dunes, their PLDs and have the defense to back it up. The ravens are THF mobs and have high evasion so those can be annoying too. Although honestly unless your fighting the DC's you won't notice.

[Babekeke]

In other news, out parsed an Emp MNK & a DRK on Aello yesterday, was hitting an average of 15% overall damage each fight which seemed fairly good.

Lol nice. Just goes to show that anyone that plays often enough can get an empy. Doesn't make you a good player. This is the issue that I have with all the "r/m/e DD onry" shouts that I see. I out-DD half of them on my brawny mnk, lol. And that's while trying to proc.

On the other hand, the empy mnk might have been trying to proc club and staff the whole fight, while the drk was trying to find which absorb spell that EV dark BLM proc was ;p

[Demon6324236]

I was 2nd & 3rd in parse all 6 fights except 1 where Fana went down near the start & I got hit with that damn Muddle+Encumbrance+Amnesia attack. :P I just thought I would share cause it seems to show RDM can DD on T3 Zilart fairly well, and my sets still need work, mainly WS sets at that.

[Babekeke]

I was 2nd & 3rd in parse all 6 fights except 1 where Fana went down near the start & I got hit with that damn Muddle+Encumbrance+Amnesia attack. :P I just thought I would share cause it seems to show RDM can DD on T3 Zilart fairly well, and my sets still need work, mainly WS sets at that.

Are you using Mandau?

[Demon6324236]

Excalibur-95/Shamshir+2(been a cheap ass about those geodes >_<;)