Kill Blue Mage Cooldown.......

[Osmond]

Thought about cutting down spells for voidwatch.....I don't think so. Thought about blue macro set....nah. Why not just kill the cooldown all together just for the sake of it to make spell management much easier so when into battle u can switch it on the fly and no penalties. Do u think it's a good idea or it has already been thought of?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

This is a perfect example of a way to overpower a job.

[Raucent]

If they made it so you could switch in and out on the fly, they would more than likely nerf the Stat/job trait gains from set spells, to Balance the ease of switching them out

[Osmond]

Hmm, thought about that. I don't think they'll remove the job traits but will reduce the stats of the spells. Do u think that the stats attribute really that important? I mean u get a lil boost but isn't the equipment gear more important or more benefit to strengthen the spells?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Hmm, thought about that. I don't think they'll remove the job traits but will reduce the stats of the spells. Do u think that the stats attribute really that important? I mean u get a lil boost but isn't the equipment gear more important or more benefit to strengthen the spells?

No, but the traits are.

[Komori]

Cut it down to 30 seconds at least or only remove the cooldown in Voidwatch somehow. But voidwatch is stupid on BLU, I'd rather Blue Mage not have a place in Voidwatch via no procs then to go on it now.

[saevel]

The problem is mainly in voidwatch as lets just fix voidwatch. Make it one to two spells per element and call it a day, better then trying to mess with a job that is already bad a$$ and amazing.

[Mefuki]

You and I both know that if SE removed our 1 minute lockout, they would weaken our spells effects, stats and traits into oblivion. I don't want that. It's not worth it and to be honest, I don't know why so many people offer that as a suggestion. The proc problem for BLU is a voidwatch problem. SE just needs to reduce BLU procs to one spell per element, much like what they did for BLU in Abyssea.

[Nawesemo]

]Here's how I see it, keep in mind I'm one of those guys when it comes to Blu, so bear with me... Blu is the buffet of goodness that is the bar in ffxi, Rdms spite them for their gear, Blm does for their aoe's, whms do because they aoe ss, etc... Dds do well cuz Blu can stomp on their toes (sc's, mb on their own)... It's a very balanced job.... I "was" very much a Blu hater... I party with one of our servers better blus, and he maximizes that job so much.... A one man army if you will, .... But after hating on it so much, and learning a lot about it, it is ....balanced (if anything is in this game Blu is the bar). ....... It's perfect the way it is, and for some reason that really gets under the Blm in mes skin. But have winced learned to appreciate the blus and well, ..... Yeah still hate on yall a little, no adjustment needed.

[Babekeke]

The proc problem for BLU is a voidwatch problem. SE just needs to reduce BLU procs to one spell per element, much like what they did for BLU in Abyssea.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

BLU is only invited to VW for procs (on the whole). Remove the procs and you remove the BLU. If a BLU can do VW while only setting 8 spells, instead of 2 BLUs setting all of them as they do now, VW will only require 1 BLU (and some ppl will be happy to lose BLU for only 8 procs). So instead of a 1 in 9 chance of getting to do VW on BLU as a proc only job, you have a 1 in 18 chance of being a proc and mediocre DD. You still won't be in a pt with a BRD or COR, and lose 8 slots so you can't set all the spells/traits you'd like.

If I'm wrong, BLUs will be invited to VW in the DD slots already once the 2 proc blus have been found. But I've never seen them invited to DD only. Have you?

[Osmond]

If I'm wrong, BLUs will be invited to VW in the DD slots already once the 2 proc blus have been found. But I've never seen them invited to DD only. Have you? Point taken Babekeke.

[Rambus]

The problem is mainly in voidwatch as lets just fix voidwatch. Make it one to two spells per element and call it a day, better then trying to mess with a job that is already bad a$$ and amazing.

^this, like I said in a different thread I will not play blue in that event. I just can't it is too stressful for me.

[Nawesemo]

Lol, as one of the few who take the utmost satisfaction in blu's misery...... My Blu mage last night should be dead from the cluster f of Blu procs .. (the mantis in vunkerl). ..... Was fun and enjoyable watching Anji san squirm, but after all said and done is pretty brutal of s.e. lol. Seiously, ws, ws ws, dot, dot, dot then the log went nuttzo,

Blu water 1

Blu thunder 5!!!!

Blu earth...


Lol. >:)-~ smoke was coming out his ears I know it!!!

[Komori]

This happened to me the other night with CoP clear, it was 3~5 BLU procs per mob, and BLU was 5 for 3/4 of them. But by the time I could get the cooldown to wear off, the mob was dead ):

[Rubicant82]

So here is a wild idea:

Let Blue mage use all their spells all the time like the other mages, BUT only allow us to "set" the spells like we do now to chose our job traits etc... and give those spells that are set (with the same 1m cool-down) bonuses or something to set them apart as being the spells set.

[Rambus]

This happened to me the other night with CoP clear, it was 3~5 BLU procs per mob, and BLU was 5 for 3/4 of them. But by the time I could get the cooldown to wear off, the mob was dead ):


^And that is why it is a problem. BLU was made to have this cooldown to discourage changing in a fight but abyssea made you do it (annoying but I managed to work with it) Then they changed what procs mobs because of 10000 needles and other bug proc with the stun one and I thought SE learned not to give blu meany spells needed to proc things.

then they made it 10000 times worse with VW? what happened to learning form mistakes?


So here is a wild idea:

Let Blue mage use all their spells all the time like the other mages, BUT only allow us to "set" the spells like we do now to chose our job traits etc... and give those spells that are set (with the same 1m cool-down) bonuses or something to set them apart as being the spells set.

I gave an idea similar to that before.

Really is it really game braking to let us access all our spells? but then there is an issue doing that with the new AL but i am not sure since it is a 2 hr ...

[Nawesemo]

So here is a wild idea:

Let Blue mage use all their spells all the time like the other mages, BUT only allow us to "set" the spells like we do now to chose our job traits etc... and give those spells that are set (with the same 1m cool-down) bonuses or something to set them apart as being the spells set.

......I'm in the opposed camp, I dont play blu, know little about the job other than i hate "mage" being in their name... Can do quite a bit as is. Find me a proud blu that will say they "need" a change to be effective, I think you would be looking for a while. But I'm just a hater..... Really really. Nerf Blu (love my shells blus on a friend level, but dispise everything about the job). Personal opinion, be nice.

[Rubicant82]

......I'm in the opposed camp, I dont play blu, know little about the job other than i hate "mage" being in their name... Can do quite a bit as is. Find me a proud blu that will say they "need" a change to be effective, I think you would be looking for a while. But I'm just a hater..... Really really. Nerf Blu (love my shells blus on a friend level, but dispise everything about the job). Personal opinion, be nice.
Everyone has their own opinion, but blue mage is by far the last job that needs to be nerfed *cough resolution relic dark knights cough*
I am a proud blue :D
We NEED change... but it is annoying as all hell that we can't access all our spells. ESP after the hours and days and weeks it takes us to learn them ALL. Sure as it stands any blue worth their salt can pull off tremendous amounts of dmg with the right job traits ergo spells set up and equipment. BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT every other DD magic users can use any of their spells whenever they want, dark knight hint hint, and it is only fair we get the same treatment. I love to play blue, but I refuse to go to void watch as a blue unless I absolutely have to, I'll go bard before I go blue (and I hate playing bard with a passion) because of the cool down and people stressing out over a blue procing every single blue magic read.

[Rubicant82]

^And that is why it is a problem. BLU was made to have this cooldown to discourage changing in a fight but abyssea made you do it (annoying but I managed to work with it) Then they changed what procs mobs because of 10000 needles and other bug proc with the stun one and I thought SE learned not to give blu meany spells needed to proc things.

then they made it 10000 times worse with VW? what happened to learning form mistakes?



I gave an idea similar to that before.

Really is it really game braking to let us access all our spells? but then there is an issue doing that with the new AL but i am not sure since it is a 2 hr ...

I don't think it would be game breaking as long as we still had to set spells for job traits, but that is my opinion. SE learn from their mistakes... that is funny! You should be a comedian :D

[Babekeke]

So here is a wild idea:

Let Blue mage use all their spells all the time like the other mages, BUT only allow us to "set" the spells like we do now to chose our job traits etc... and give those spells that are set (with the same 1m cool-down) bonuses or something to set them apart as being the spells set.

What could be done that would allow BLU to play DD in VW, and still access all procs without having to keep swapping, and keep the balance in full:

Apply this change, but spells that aren't 'set' don't do any damage, don't cure any HP, don't inflict any enhancements, or inflict any enfeebles. They just hit, and still cost the same MP as if they were set.

Balanced.

[Llana_Virren]

Apply this change, but spells that aren't 'set' don't do any damage, don't cure any HP, don't inflict any enhancements, or inflict any enfeebles. They just hit, and still cost the same MP as if they were set.

Balanced.

How would you code a spell to hit without having any sort of effect?

[Rubicant82]

What could be done that would allow BLU to play DD in VW, and still access all procs without having to keep swapping, and keep the balance in full:

Apply this change, but spells that aren't 'set' don't do any damage, don't cure any HP, don't inflict any enhancements, or inflict any enfeebles. They just hit, and still cost the same MP as if they were set.

Balanced.

unfortunately they would never do that because of the coding issues, and also in order to "proc" the spell must land which means adding an effect/doing dmg in some amount to the mob. So in order for that idea to work the spells that were not set would have to do at least 1 dmg to the VW mob.

I look at it based on other FF games that have blue mages in them. They get to use all their spells all the time, the biggest hurdle for FFXI is that the Job Traits of Blue Mage were tied in to the spells. If we eliminate the need to set spells for job traits and allow full access to spells all the time the whole job would change drastically. I like that we can customize our job traits, I just would like to have access to all the spells as well. Which is why a system where the spells that are not set are "normal" and those spells chosen to be "set" are augmented in some way is by far the easiest and most balanced solution.

[Komori]

With limited MP pool and only a margin of our spells even being useful, I don't think having access to all spells at once would be overpowered while we only gain traits from those set, that sounds like a perfect idea because Job Traits are the only main reason it'd really even be overpowered. And if your worried about because we'd no longer have to set damage spells to take up our points, then lower the number of points o something to allow fewer traits.

[Rambus]

Where is the SE rep to notice these suggestions T^T

sounds like we are agreeing XD

[Rubicant82]

Where is the SE rep to notice these suggestions T^T

sounds like we are agreeing XD

They never seem to notice the really good ideas. xD

[saevel]

Won't happen, ever. Most would be a JA that allowed access for a limited period of time.

Part of BLU's core design concept is set points and forcing BLU's to pick and chose their spell sets. Your asking SE to completely redesign / rebalance BLU over what is essentially a problem with a single event. Blue magic cool down has never been an issue until SE released Voidwatch. Even inside Abyssea the proc list was small enough that you could cover the three days pretty easily. What really needs to happen is have the Blue magic procs in voidwatch drastically reduced to one to two per element tops.

[Babekeke]

Where is the SE rep to notice these suggestions T^T

sounds like we are agreeing XD

They're reading and agreeing that these are very good ideas.... to be implemented to rune fencer.

Just like any good suggestions in the RDM thread get applied to SCH.

[Zagen]

Does no one realize that the only thing the cool down timers do is prevent a BLU from casting spells? I ask because it's been mentioned that Job Traits and Stat Bonuses being changed on the fly would be one of the reasons this would be over powered, except those don't suffer from the delay.

[Llana_Virren]

Does no one realize that the only thing the cool down timers do is prevent a BLU from casting spells? I ask because it's been mentioned that Job Traits and Stat Bonuses being changed on the fly would be one of the reasons this would be over powered, except those don't suffer from the delay.

It would also unbalance an already dangerous job.

[Zagen]

It would also unbalance an already dangerous job.

I'd love a legit example. The only time I've ever cared about switching spells in the middle of anything at all has been for staggers. And let's be real here BLU is a dangerous job on trash mobs anything beyond that it's there for staggers and nothing else because if those weren't a factor that BLU would be on a different job.

[Llana_Virren]

I'd love a legit example. The only time I've ever cared about switching spells in the middle of anything at all has been for staggers. And let's be real here BLU is a dangerous job on trash mobs anything beyond that it's there for staggers and nothing else because if those weren't a factor that BLU would be on a different job.

Example? BLU is one of the most lethal jobs in the game; not only does it deal legitimate damage, but its spells also give survivability. The only thing holding BLU back is having to wait on cooldowns for spells; take that away and you end up with a job that can act as both a 99WAR and a 99RDM; able to use every spell in its arsenal at will.

People need to stop trying to resurrect Avesta. BLU is dangerous on more than "trash mobs" if its properly geared by a player who knows -how- to play BLU. Posters here are focusing on Voidwatch but not realizing that unlocking all spells for BLU without cooldown impacts everything, not just one event.

[Zagen]

Example? BLU is one of the most lethal jobs in the game; not only does it deal legitimate damage, but its spells also give survivability. The only thing holding BLU back is having to wait on cooldowns for spells; take that away and you end up with a job that can act as both a 99WAR and a 99RDM; able to use every spell in its arsenal at will.

People need to stop trying to resurrect Avesta. BLU is dangerous on more than "trash mobs" if its properly geared by a player who knows -how- to play BLU. Posters here are focusing on Voidwatch but not realizing that unlocking all spells for BLU without cooldown impacts everything, not just one event.

I essentially asked "How?" and you come back with dribble. I know what BLU is capable of and isn't capable of.
In VW it's a stagger job, that fact it can do some damage is nice but you don't bring it along for it's "lethal" damage capabilities because those don't exist in VW.
They don't exist in Legion either.
They are nice in NNI but then again those are trash mobs and the only challenge is the stupid luck required on decent jumps and lamps.

The only time a BLU is lethal in anything that could be considered relevant endgame content would be Abyssea and a player capable of making BLU lethal is more than likely done with Abyssea.

So like I said how would removing the cool down time make it overpowered?

I can give you reasons how swapping spells mid battle/event is a terrible idea, and that is while you're fiddling with the menus you can't be doing optimal damage, you can't be providing optimal support at the drop of a pin, in essence while you'd fiddling with the menu you're a waste of a slot that's pretty much good for mediocre melee damage compared to a traditional melee DD.

So please enlighten me on how exactly it would make BLU broken.

Edit: before you misinterpret my mention of Abyssea, Abyssea monsters due to level correction and Cruor and Atma buffs are considered trash monsters now not that they were actually tough before we got up to 99.

Also if you're arguing about BLU solo, NIN, BST, PLD, WHM, RDM solo are all pretty overpowered but then again who wants to sit there whittling down a monster all day long, maybe I just grew out of the stupid bragging rights phase of my life but that sounds boring.

[SpankWustler]

I've never had an issue with the cool-down other than Voidwatch. Voidwatch makes up for this by causing huge issues, generally requiring a group to take either two Blue Mages who are still forced to half-ass the job a bit if they want to proc with maximum efficiency or one miserable Blue Mage who is left with barely any ass at all if he wants to proc anything at all.

I think it would make more sense to just drastically reduce the number of Blue Magic Voidwatch procs.

"But then people will only take one half-assed Blue Mage to proc all the things, instead of two three-quarter-assed Blue Mages!" some cry out. I just can't see how that is a bad thing, as it still benefits the group by allowing them more options.

[Zagen]

I've never had an issue with the cool-down other than Voidwatch. Voidwatch makes up for this by causing huge issues, generally requiring a group to take either two Blue Mages who are still forced to half-ass the job a bit if they want to proc with maximum efficiency or one miserable Blue Mage who is left with barely any ass at all if he wants to proc anything at all.

I think it would make more sense to just drastically reduce the number of Blue Magic Voidwatch procs.

"But then people will only take one half-assed Blue Mage to proc all the things, instead of two three-quarter-assed Blue Mages!" some cry out. I just can't see how that is a bad thing, as it still benefits the group by allowing them more options.

Groups I've done VW with don't take a BLU, makes my BLU sad but then again I have DRK and other jobs available. Never had white be a BLU spell yet but it was PUP once and we just capped with yellows and reds without a problem. Even with spell timer set to 0 it wouldn't change much other than the groups that find value in BLU would bring 1 instead of 2 and be happy with the extra damage from spells, though because of how Blue Physical Attack is factored you're more likely to kill your DPS by casting spells.

[Babekeke]

Groups I've done VW with don't take a BLU, makes my BLU sad but then again I have DRK and other jobs available. Never had white be a BLU spell yet but it was PUP once and we just capped with yellows and reds without a problem. Even with spell timer set to 0 it wouldn't change much other than the groups that find value in BLU would bring 1 instead of 2 and be happy with the extra damage from spells, though because of how Blue Physical Attack is factored you're more likely to kill your DPS by casting spells.

Not being able to cover all magic procs in VW is fairly retarded. Unless you're low-manning just for the win but even then we'll try and have at least 1 blu 1 blm 1 brd 1 whm 1 of which is /sch, and a NIN or at least /nin.

[Zagen]

Not being able to cover all magic procs in VW is fairly retarded. Unless you're low-manning just for the win but even then we'll try and have at least 1 blu 1 blm 1 brd 1 whm 1 of which is /sch, and a NIN or at least /nin.

So then your groups take a DRG, BST, SMN, and PUP every time right?

The odds of it being a BLU spell for all red and white staggers, or even more than 1 red stagger are I dare say 0 or almost impossible if it is even possible. I have seen BLU be a yellow and red at the same time, but we still capped without a problem and without having to /fume.

Unless you bring 2 BLU and have them set every single proc spell between them you're wasting 1 minute waiting for the cool down to give them a shot to stagger if it wasn't one of the spells set already. Often times in that 1 minute lights will get capped from the rest of the stagger options getting found and then the ones that replaced them also getting found. Oh and if you bring 2 BLU with all spells so there is no delay in trying, their damage added to the group will be well on par with a Melee RDM because you forced them to set proc spells over DD utility spells.

There are "accepted" rules I've heard/read about when a BLU is welcomed and they go are something like this:
- Only reset spells if White is BLU
- Only reset spells if Red is BLU and we can't do the rest (usually small man groups)
- Don't ever reset spells because we want you helping with stuns

The cool down issue is almost exclusive to voidwatch but that's because there's actually 32 options. BLU in Abyssea is almost always excluded because playing the odds a BLM/BRD + NIN or /NIN can cover all but 8. Don't get me wrong BLU/NIN could be your tank, I've done it plenty of times but not everyone knows how to play BLU and even then fewer know how to tank with it well. Reducing the stagger spells doesn't make BLU more attractive it actually makes them less attractive because of the learning curve of the job.

[Babekeke]

Not being able to cover all magic procs in VW is fairly retarded. Unless you're low-manning just for the win but even then we'll try and have at least 1 blu 1 blm 1 brd 1 whm 1 of which is /sch, and a NIN or at least /nin.


So then your groups take a DRG, BST, SMN, and PUP every time right?

I highlighted the key word there for you. Cover all magic procs and use DDs to kill the mob. Main exception to this is Botulus, where 2 magic parties is generally better and just 1 melee pt.


The odds of it being a BLU spell for all red and white staggers, or even more than 1 red stagger are I dare say 0 or almost impossible if it is even possible. I have seen BLU be a yellow and red at the same time, but we still capped without a problem and without having to /fume.

Unless you bring 2 BLU and have them set every single proc spell between them you're wasting 1 minute waiting for the cool down to give them a shot to stagger if it wasn't one of the spells set already.

Personally, unless I'm low-manning for wins for ppl only, or the group has been shouting forever for a blu and we decide to give up and go with just 1, I would always take 2 BLU.


Often times in that 1 minute lights will get capped from the rest of the stagger options getting found and then the ones that replaced them also getting found. Oh and if you bring 2 BLU with all spells so there is no delay in trying, their damage added to the group will be well on par with a Melee RDM because you forced them to set proc spells over DD utility spells.

Actually their melee damage is much less than a melee RDM, since they're all wearing Chatoyant staffs and only proccing. Same as the NIN. They only tend to engage if there is a sword proc (katana obviously for NIN) and they aren't currently trying to proc a red or white magic proc. You obviously use a different strategy than groups on our server. Our proc parties are 3 BLM or 2 BLM and a rdm or sch, with 2 blu and a nin. They have no buffs so no point in meleeing anyway. With 2 Strong DD parties, it's rare that they have to even try for procs since all magic procs are covered. The only exception being a red or white dark blm proc if it's proven to be an absorb spell. DDs won't even try to get a WS proc on red unless there aren't any more magic procs to get.


There are "accepted" rules I've heard/read about when a BLU is welcomed and they go are something like this:
- Only reset spells if White is BLU
- Only reset spells if Red is BLU and we can't do the rest (usually small man groups)
- Don't ever reset spells because we want you helping with stuns

In my experience, like I said we almost always have 2 BLU, and if we really need help with stuns, we take a sch for that.


The cool down issue is almost exclusive to voidwatch but that's because there's actually 32 options. BLU in Abyssea is almost always excluded because playing the odds a BLM/BRD + NIN or /NIN can cover all but 8. Don't get me wrong BLU/NIN could be your tank, I've done it plenty of times but not everyone knows how to play BLU and even then fewer know how to tank with it well. Reducing the stagger spells doesn't make BLU more attractive it actually makes them less attractive because of the learning curve of the job.

For abyssea, THF/NIN, WHM/RDM and BLM/BRD and you're missing all but 3 (since can only be 1 of 3 elements on any given game day). If you're not on thunder light dark or fireday, you can scrap the whm/rdm too.

You don't need to be a good BLU or <insert job here> to tank in abyssea lol.

And I agree that lowering the number of procs is only going to make BLU even less desirable or even required in VW. SMN has 8 procs, and I rarely ever see a SMN in VW. Lower BLU procs to 8 and it will become as desirable as SMN.

So you get to set more DD-Type spells.... but you no longer get an invite. Catch #22.

[Zagen]

Actually their melee damage is much less than a melee RDM, since they're all wearing Chatoyant staffs and only proccing. Same as the NIN.

Your BLU's don't need staffs to land spells. Don't get me wrong I get the idea of reducing the resist rate but only 8 of the BLU spells can be out right resisted, and one of those only lands if the mob has buffs. The rest do damage and won't miss, sure the damage can be resisted but I doubt you're banking on their damage.

Think of that more of a general fyi/curiosity more so than anything else. When I have gone on BLU it was on low-man things and having sword or club equipped + monarch's was more useful than using a staff would have been.

And you're right groups I go with that aren't low man are run different than yours. Generally running BLM x2 (at least 1 /SCH), BRDx2 (in DD pts), WHM x2, NIN, DRK 1-2, fill in with other DDs who can proc.

In those groups I swear I'm the only DRK who bothers to cast when BLMs proclaim Dark Magic is DRK proc. Kills my DPS for a bit but capped lights over uncapped > DPS imo.

That is more so for the older VWs for Ig/Rex/Bismarck/Morta it's similar but we've actually set DDs to certain procs. At least that's how it's been done so far, though I don't often go on these due to them not being shouted for as often.


You don't need to be a good BLU or <insert job here> to tank in abyssea lol.
I don't disagree when talking about myself or my friends but I also don't do shout runs on my mule anymore because apparently on my server this isn't true, when talking about the ones that still need seals/+2 items.


So you get to set more DD-Type spells.... but you no longer get an invite. Catch #22

With a 0 use delay on using spells after resetting/changing spells BLUs would be far more appealing for those who see 1 minute delay and say screw BLU.

People are arguing that giving a 0 delay on spell use after resetting would make BLU over powered.

Now I just thought of this and maybe people think the OP and others (myself included) for it are talking about the recast delay for spells instead of the use delay. At which point I would agree that would be over powered but then again I didn't get that from the OP.

Edit: Further clarification:
Use Delay is the 1 minute cool down before you can cast any Blue Spell.

Resetting spells does not reset the recast time of the spell, you can test this by setting warm-up (120 sec recast) then adding or removing another spell and then try to recast warm-up once your spells unlock, you'll find that you can't.

So again I'll ask this question: How does removing the usage delay make BLU overpowered?

[Raucent]

as i mentioned on page 1 if SE lessened the reset timers i am willing to bet they would nerf the hell outta the stats and traits from the set spells.
As an example I could see someone using windowers Spellcast or other tool start casting a spell then during cast change the other set spells to give them MAB or other "boost the spell you are casting" type effects or suddenly changing the spells during a skillchain to boost a stat as high as possible to boost its damage

[Zagen]

as i mentioned on page 1 if SE lessened the reset timers i am willing to bet they would nerf the hell outta the stats and traits from the set spells.
As an example I could see someone using windowers Spellcast or other tool start casting a spell then during cast change the other set spells to give them MAB or other "boost the spell you are casting" type effects or suddenly changing the spells during a skillchain to boost a stat as high as possible to boost its damage
Spellcast can't navigate menus so your example isn't possible.

[Afania]

I highlighted the key word there for you. Cover all magic procs and use DDs to kill the mob. Main exception to this is Botulus, where 2 magic parties is generally better and just 1 melee pt.



Personally, unless I'm low-manning for wins for ppl only, or the group has been shouting forever for a blu and we decide to give up and go with just 1, I would always take 2 BLU.



Actually their melee damage is much less than a melee RDM, since they're all wearing Chatoyant staffs and only proccing. Same as the NIN. They only tend to engage if there is a sword proc (katana obviously for NIN) and they aren't currently trying to proc a red or white magic proc. You obviously use a different strategy than groups on our server. Our proc parties are 3 BLM or 2 BLM and a rdm or sch, with 2 blu and a nin. They have no buffs so no point in meleeing anyway. With 2 Strong DD parties, it's rare that they have to even try for procs since all magic procs are covered. The only exception being a red or white dark blm proc if it's proven to be an absorb spell. DDs won't even try to get a WS proc on red unless there aren't any more magic procs to get.


Chatoyant staff seriously? You don't need to full time a staff entire time. There are only a few, REALLY few spell that will need a staff to land. Majority of them can be landed easily with a sword.

Just melee with a sword, switch to a staff if it's a spell you can't land(which rarely happen), problem solved. Full time Chatoyant staff what else are you doing in ally if proc isn't called....


Whether BLU can deal dmg without a buff or not depend on the tier of NM. B.rex/Ig-alima/Prov generally won't be much dmg at all and not worth meleeing, but T3 isn't THAT bad due to CDC being crit-hit WS and BLU generally has high crit. Unless your pt can kill those NM in less than 2 min, there are no reason not to engage and kill it faster to save everyone's time.....

I also don't see a point to use 2 BLUs in ally unless your ally can kill in less than 2 min with 2 BLU. But fat chances are 98% of /shout pt this isn't happening. Last Ig-Alima pt it took 4 min(which was beyond terrible) per kill with just 1 BLU and 1 WHM, the killing speed improved when SAM and MNK left and replaced with DRK, became about 2 min~2.5min. Add 1 more BLU to ally and that just going to be even slower. Unless I know the ally can kill the NM in 90 sec, no way I'm going to bring 2 BLU to waste spot and kill slower lol.

I BLU in VW many time, and most of the time I'm the only one, and according to my experience, I really, really rarely even need to proc to cap red, and really, really rarely need to have NM being hold until blue magic is procd. Most of the time even if BLU 3 or 5 is called, other proc still capped red and NM would die before you need another proc.

I honestly start to think BLU is completely skippable and really just there for safety net that in case you can't cap red and don't want to /fume.





For abyssea, THF/NIN, WHM/RDM and BLM/BRD and you're missing all but 3 (since can only be 1 of 3 elements on any given game day). If you're not on thunder light dark or fireday, you can scrap the whm/rdm too.

You don't need to be a good BLU or <insert job here> to tank in abyssea lol.

.

Since you don't need a good BLU or any job to tank in abyssea, then the answer to AF3 pt setup is BLU/NIN with TH2 + BLM/BRD, or add WHM if you need heal/WHM stuff. Pop on right day and you cover all yellow plus you got TH2 and faster killing speed, and possibly strong AoE burn when needed to farm KI. Using a THF over BLU doesn't offer anything special except higher tier TH, but you also kill slower and may not get proc. Once you can proc yellow, higher tier TH isn't really make or break IMO. Not to mention THF/NIN has no healing ability when team up with just BLM/BRD, thus you may have harder time dealing with certain NM(if their TP move goes through shadows or nuke) or when try to AoE burn, while BLU can solo majority of NM without a healer and not needing 3rd person.

[saevel]

Our proc parties are 3 BLM or 2 BLM and a rdm or sch, with 2 blu and a nin

There are different ways to go about doing that. We rarely bring more then 1 BLU unless both of our main BLU's happen to be attending. We don't bring NIN's or PLD's (unless PLD needed for holding) but we tend to bring a THF/DNC. We have 2 BRDs, one is /PLD the other is /NIN, pretty much covers those procs. We try to always have 2 BLMs, one being /SCH.

There are usually a spot or two open for flexibility purposes, SMN comes to mind.

[Afania]

So like I said how would removing the cool down time make it overpowered?


Depend on how you define overpower. Remove cool down time won't make BLU stronger than a WAR, won't make it heal better than a WHM, it probably won't change current job role for everything we do in this game atm.

However, it will also allow BLU to be able to change pt role a lot faster, and appearantly this is against the design concept of this job. For anything you bring BLU to.

For example, a DD BLU trying to get most melee dmg out will set Triple attack/STP2/Zanshin/Counter/DW3 and so on, that leaves no room for AoE sleep/AoE dmg/cure/defensive spell and so on.

If a BLU is currently doing crowd control(inb4 "I don't do crowd control in this game", I still do in salvage/dyna.), you also need to keep 1~2 sleep spell on. And if you need evasion/more defensive ability, you need to set those too, that leaves no room for offensive ability.

The point for BLU cool down is, you can't do everything at once. If you want more defensive ability, you have to sacrifice some offensive ability. If you want to be very good at crowd control, you need to sacrifice something. If you want highest evasion reachable, you need to set those spells and will sacrifice some other aspect too.

And it will make a big difference when you solo or low man.

Of course it won't make you bring BLU over WAR to endgame content. Until SE remove 1h DD disadvantage it never will.

But you will be able to gain full access of every aspect when you solo/lowman stuff. For example, I go to limbus/dyna/salvage, I set TH to TH the mobs, then remove TH and set DD spell and kill the mob instantly. Now I aggro, so I set AoE sleep, then I aggroed another batch of mobs, I set another sleep. Now I'm all safe now, I set DD job trait/spells and begin killing really fast. I didn't expect to aggro a nuking NM, but that's fine I can just set MDB and DT- spell and cast it right away and act like a semi-Aegis PLD.....

That will change how the job worked and played completely. The point of cooldown is so that you can't do all the role on the same time and must prepare before getting into the situations. It's like a deck of cards that you build before playing with your opponent, but you don't change your deck after the game starts, if you're in disadvantage with your current deck, then you try to solve the problem with current cards at hand, not getting another deck of cards before the game ends. By removing the cool down, that will also make players change spell set alot more often than actually playing, and that just makes this job no fun at all. The point of cooldown isn't there to restrict players, but rather to let players make decision on which card to play before encountering your enemy.

I don't see VW change spell is a zomg terrible problem too. Red isn't that hard to cap, not really a big deal if some of the proc were skipped.

[Mefuki]

And besides, we'd never be able to convince SE to do away with cooldown without them completely crippling the effects of our spells.

[Zagen]

For example, a DD BLU trying to get most melee dmg out will set Triple attack/STP2/Zanshin/Counter/DW3 and so on, that leaves no room for AoE sleep/AoE dmg/cure/defensive spell and so on.
- 10% Counter means nothing when the monster is stun locked, if you can't stun lock and you're DDing it either you're able to evade, are /NIN or aren't tanking it, at which point you're gaining little from setting it.
- Zanshin I could see as useful for VW otherwise nothing you'd bring a DD BLU to should bring you below acc cap.
- STP2 (15) knocks 1 round off (assuming Almace/Ele Magian, Rajas, Brutal) or saves 3.98 seconds to 100% if you don't set STP1, if you do set STP1 then it saves you 1 round if you miss a hit otherwise you gain nothing from setting STP2 besides losing 8 points.

When I go to DD on anything first thing that's set is DW3 (unless I actually need /NIN haven't come across the need but disclaimer anyway). Second I set Triple Attack. The third thing I set is STP1 (unless the monster is immune to sudden lunge then I think about it based on what else I'd need). That takes up 37/60 plenty of room for me to set whatever I need based on the event (i.e. TH + sleep for dynamis).


But you will be able to gain full access of every aspect when you solo/lowman stuff. For example, I go to limbus/dyna/salvage, I set TH to TH the mobs, then remove TH and set DD spell and kill the mob instantly. Now I aggro, so I set AoE sleep, then I aggroed another batch of mobs, I set another sleep. Now I'm all safe now, I set DD job trait/spells and begin killing really fast. I didn't expect to aggro a nuking NM, but that's fine I can just set MDB and DT- spell and cast it right away and act like a semi-Aegis PLD.....

I can see this argument if I'm low manning something completely new otherwise, the correct answer is research and set spells accordingly, outside of being a stagger job you don't need to reset spells on the fly. Though If I didn't know what to expect and didn't bring crowd control or a healer to help I sure as hell wouldn't be setting full on DD spells expecting to walk right through random new thing.

I don't know how fast you are but even with spells set in order to allow quick changing for VW it still takes me 10-20 seconds to reset spells. Maybe I'm slow but compared to other BLUs it seems fast as hell to me I mean on average I'm popping off 2 Fanatic's in VW before I ever see another proc spell from them. Of course that is more anecdotal more than anything else.

I have no disagreement that having 0 use delay could potentially make the job stronger but I just can't see it because my BLU has no problems setting DD spells and spells relevant to a given event I'd bring it to without needing to rest mid event besides VW. Your examples were great but were more examples of being unprepared and if that's acceptable then I guess this would make BLU "overpowered", I'd rather research first but as the saying goes different strokes for different folks.

[Prothscar]

Zanshin doesn't work when you're dual wielding, not sure why I keep seeing it mentioned

[Afania]

- 10% Counter means nothing when the monster is stun locked, if you can't stun lock and you're DDing it either you're able to evade, are /NIN or aren't tanking it, at which point you're gaining little from setting it.


You don't need to stun lock if you have a healer for most things. Just DD with /WAR as usual, have healer cure you if your taking dmg. I only ever stun lock when I soloing or dealing with super dangerous NM such as DL. Otherwise it's just a waste of time to cast when you can kill faster without it.

If you're evading, you still take hit every 5 hit, so you still gains benefit from it.

Your target will bounce back and off if everyone capes enmity, so even with multiple pt member you may still gain advantage from it.

There are a lot of times that stun/refresh/cure/crowd control aren't needed and all that needed is just doing dmg, so there gonna be extra slot to set extra DD trait anyways since other spell/trait you aren't using it completely.





I can see this argument if I'm low manning something completely new otherwise, the correct answer is research and set spells accordingly, outside of being a stagger job you don't need to reset spells on the fly. Though If I didn't know what to expect and didn't bring crowd control or a healer to help I sure as hell wouldn't be setting full on DD spells expecting to walk right through random new thing.


The point is not about whether you research or not. In fact, if you already researched and knows what will come up, you just going to reset spell more often if no cool down.

Say if I do Salvage/limbus w/e, I already know next area is going to full of aggros. If there's cool down time and already researched, I will set sleep before I get into that area and same spell set entire time, and sacrifice DD spells. But if there are no cool down time, I will just go in with handful of DD spells to kill faster, reset sleep when I aggro, then reset back to DD spell and keep killing. That way actually kills faster than just set sleep before entering due to you can get more time with DD spell set on.

That actually is stronger than currently is, on top of spending more time on setting spell than actually playing or making decision before entering.

Just because we don't need to keep reset now, doesn't mean we won't keep resetting when cool down removed.

[Zagen]

If you're evading, you still take hit every 5 hit, so you still gains benefit from it.
If you'll get hit 5% of the time, of that you can counter 10% in other words 0.5% of the time you'll counter. That sounds awesome terrible for 5 points.


There are a lot of times that stun/refresh/cure/crowd control aren't needed and all that needed is just doing dmg, so there gonna be extra slot to set extra DD trait anyways since other spell/trait you aren't using it completely.
If those aren't needed why are you worried about resetting spells to set them?


The point is not about whether you research or not. In fact, if you already researched and knows what will come up, you just going to reset spell more often if no cool down.
Actually it wouldn't because what you're ignoring is that navigating the menus still take time and that time you're wasting is wasted potential, so no I wouldn't attempt to set spells mid fight when I can just set it and forget it thanks to research. Again excluding VW.


Say if I do Salvage/limbus w/e, I already know next area is going to full of aggros. If there's cool down time and already researched, I will set sleep before I get into that area and same spell set entire time, and sacrifice DD spells. But if there are no cool down time, I will just go in with handful of DD spells to kill faster, reset sleep when I aggro, then reset back to DD spell and keep killing. That way actually kills faster than just set sleep before entering due to you can get more time with DD spell set on.

Again I refer you to the set it and forget it logic. I've never thought about resetting and even if the use delay was 0 I still wouldn't reset spells in those events because I can set everything I need with 60 points.

[Afania]

If you'll get hit 5% of the time, of that you can counter 10% in other words 0.5% of the time you'll counter. That sounds awesome terrible for 5 points.


You get hit 20% of time at capped evasion, so that's 2% of time you will counter.

Of course it's not "Awesome", but in situations when you don't need stun/AoE sleep/TH/refresh/cures, it doesn't hurt to set them, it's not like you have anything else to set besides STR+ spell at that point of time.

Also a waste setting stun/sleep/TH/refresh/cures if you know you don't need them no?






If those aren't needed why are you worried about resetting spells to set them?


Actually it wouldn't because what you're ignoring is that navigating the menus still take time and that time you're wasting is wasted potential, so no I wouldn't attempt to set spells mid fight when I can just set it and forget it thanks to research. Again excluding VW.



It doesn't take awefully long to navigating menu if you do it fast enough, just WS, reset while mid-TP phrase, and finish it before 100 TP again. Of course not everyone will attempt to reset mid-fight, but for anyone seriously into min-maxing, and have max performance every second in this game, it will become an option to do so. That also take away the fun of plan ahead and build your deck of skills before you do stuff and players ended up spending more time on setting spells. I'd ended up setting battery charge and blink spell, cast them then remove them again very often just to sqeeze out extra few set point for STR spells to push more output. I haven't even mention crazier level such as setting 1 set of spell for TP and another set for WS!

Again, has nothing to do if you "don't need it", there's a difference between "don't need" and "try to be most optimal"



Again I refer you to the set it and forget it logic. I've never thought about resetting and even if the use delay was 0 I still wouldn't reset spells in those events because I can set everything I need with 60 points.



Why do you insist to set all spells needed before you go in, if you have the option to reset mid-fight for better performance and use more than 60 points if there are no cool down?

[Zagen]

You get hit 20% of time at capped evasion, so that's 2% of time you will counter.
You said 5 not me I just used your number.


Also a waste setting stun/sleep/TH/refresh/cures if you know you don't need them no?
That's why I don't when they aren't needed, I set spells for stats or DD spells.


Why do you insist to set all spells needed before you go in, if you have the option to reset mid-fight for better performance and use more than 60 points if there are no cool down?
Because there isn't a need, and despite what you think fiddling with menus causes your performance to drop. The only time there's a need is when a BLU has to stagger.

[hiko]

You said 5 not me I just used your number.



math is hard!




If you're evading, you still take hit every 5 hit, so you still gains benefit from it.


1hit every 5 = 5% now?

[Afania]

You said 5 not me I just used your number.



1 out of 5 is 20%.

[Zagen]

1 out of 5 is 20%.
Should have worded it better, had you taken the extra second the first time around I wouldn't have had an issue. Either way 2 times out of 100 is crap and a waste of 5 points. The only time counter would be worth setting is if the monster had closer to a 80% hit rate, and at the point I'd ask why you aren't stun locking or blink tanking it.

Your logic on why you set X trait is your problem as to why you think having a 0 use delay would be over powered. But it matters not, with the OP only getting 2 likes it's clear people don't care about BLU becoming something useful in stagger situations as that's the only place it becomes notably more powerful.

[AndytheRaven]

Well am no BLU and I didn't read all 6 pages of this thread, but the one idea I have always had was let blu be able to have two sets of spells in which you can insta switch with a JA, however make the JA have a 5 min recast to prevent back and forth switching and wont be anything game breaking.

[Babekeke]

Well am no BLU and I didn't read all 6 pages of this thread, but the one idea I have always had was let blu be able to have two sets of spells in which you can insta switch with a JA, however make the JA have a 5 min recast to prevent back and forth switching and wont be anything game breaking.

Allowing BLUs to save magic sets would be a start. swapping spells doesn't render a BLU useless for 1 min, it's closer to 1:15 or even 1:30 as you're useless from the first spell you swap until the last spell you swap and come out of the menu, +1 min.

[Cabalabob]

I'll suggest what I always suggest for BLU cooldown threads, make the timer based on spells swapped. E.G lvl 1 we get max of 6 spots so each spell we set or change should add 10 seconds (6x10=60) so if we set all spells it will take 1 min but if we change just 1 spell it would only take 10 seconds. And this would scale as we level so that at lvl 99 when we have 20 spots if we set or change one spell it would be 3 seconds of cooldown per spell (3x20=60) so if we set 20 spells it would take full time but if we set 1 it will take 3 seconds.

This would make sense from a lore perspective cause a trained BLU would be able to readjust to single spells easier than a new BLU but having a full reset would be the same cause they have more to readjust to.

[Babekeke]

I'll suggest what I always suggest for BLU cooldown threads, make the timer based on spells swapped. E.G lvl 1 we get max of 6 spots so each spell we set or change should add 10 seconds (6x10=60) so if we set all spells it will take 1 min but if we change just 1 spell it would only take 10 seconds. And this would scale as we level so that at lvl 99 when we have 20 spots if we set or change one spell it would be 3 seconds of cooldown per spell (3x20=60) so if we set 20 spells it would take full time but if we set 1 it will take 3 seconds.

This would make sense from a lore perspective cause a trained BLU would be able to readjust to single spells easier than a new BLU but having a full reset would be the same cause they have more to readjust to.

This would allow cycling of 3 or 4 big damage spells within the recast of each one. EG, cast Goblin rush, swap it to Amorphic Spikes, wait 3 secs cast AS, swap to Quad Cont wait 3 secs cast QC and swap back to GR again in time for it's timer to be up.

[Cabalabob]

And that's something that wouldn't be a problem when killing the cooldown completely?

Besides it still involves going to the menu finding the spell swapping the spell and waiting for cooldown, it would be more efficient to wait for recast. Plus you'll be vulnerable while constantly swapping so you couldn't cure yourself or watch out for stuff to stun, you'd probably lose damage output playing like that.

[Babekeke]

I believe that we should either get spell sets that we can easily swap betweem (at least 5) or half the cooldown. Any more than that is likely going to be abused.

eg. you could set TH trait, attack a mob then swap to a DD trait for a penalty of only 9 seconds?

[Prothscar]

The implications of not having to choose between and balance buffs, enfeebles, DD spells, and heals tosses most ideas like these out of the window. I'd be fine with having savable spell sets that we can swap between, with the normal 60s cooldown still applying, and Voidwatcher status halving or abolishing the recovery time on setting blue magic spells. Not like our magic is useful outside of procs in any voidwatch fights anyway.

[Cabalabob]

Again if you are doing that for every fight the penalty is going to add up, 9 seconds + the 10~ seconds it takes to swap the spells is a big chunk of time where all you can do is swing your swords. Also if you're only doing it for traits you can already do that now, traits aren't effected by cooldown. Can you honestly see yourself in dyna swapping spells every other fight just to get TH1-2 on a mob? If you fight 100 mobs that's 15 minutes of down time that's a hefty amount of your dyna time without casting.

[Babekeke]

Again if you are doing that for every fight the penalty is going to add up, 9 seconds + the 10~ seconds it takes to swap the spells is a big chunk of time where all you can do is swing your swords. Also if you're only doing it for traits you can already do that now, traits aren't effected by cooldown. Can you honestly see yourself in dyna swapping spells every other fight just to get TH1-2 on a mob? If you fight 100 mobs that's 15 minutes of down time that's a hefty amount of your dyna time without casting.

I already have this on THF while I'm waiting for step/flourish to be up. I don't see any difference. Dyna on blu/dnc, Flourish/Step, 1 melee swing/ranged attack to set TH on it, 10 secs to set new trait, step again, 5 secs later flourish, 4 secs later spells are ready. You only lost out if you procced in the first 4 JAs.

[Cabalabob]

I'm still only seeing abuse of traits which you can already do. Even so it's not worth the time taken even if you don't include the in battle time, 10 seconds to set 10-19 to set back after battle (depending on if you're confident enough to pull without spells or not) it will add up and in the time it will have taken to do that eventually you'll reach the point where it would have been more efficient to have just used the time for extra pulls and procced em. Maybe if we were getting an unbalanced level of TH like TH7 it would be worth it but we are talking TH 1-2.

The only time I could see myself resetting is if I didn't mean to set a spell, if my spell set isn't the current proc in aby or VW or if I was experimenting with my spell set and decided "this doesn't work as well as this might, maybe I'll swap it for this". None of those are worth the 1 min timer, while deciding I don't want to play magical BLU now I want to play Physical BLU would require a complete overhaul and be worth the reset timer.

There might be times it gets abused but there are a lot of things that get abused which shouldn't which are much worse than resetting a few spells at shorter time cost. e.g FC parties, CW farming, that save tp COR roll(before it was nerfed), Cruor for Gil. I could go on but point is there are far worse things that have less penalty behind them, if you feel so strongly about not abusing things then don't abuse them.

[Babekeke]

Regardless of your argument, SE already said that they won't remove it, and I don't ever see there possibly being a strong enough case to do so. The main argument for it is solely VW procs, and there are other ways to get around that issue.

[Luvbunny]

Cut it down to 30 seconds at least or only remove the cooldown in Voidwatch somehow. But voidwatch is stupid on BLU, I'd rather Blue Mage not have a place in Voidwatch via no procs then to go on it now.

Agree, 30 seconds should be a good solution for this problem.

[Xilk]

The cooldown is good the way it is. The idea between changing spells is to have that layer of strategic play to bluemage. The job is supposed to be used strategically that way, and its fun that way.

getting rid of cool down would be a poor choice, and I'm glad SE does not intend to do so.

[Scuro]

Agreed, people stop making these idiotic topics of how to overpower a great job, I mean sure it gives me a reason to come into the BLU threads and kick some teeth in. Yet honestly BLU needs more ways to strategically manipulate their spells, not just dumb them down so any ignorant Abyssea burning MF can pick it up and run with it.... We get enough of that shit and we don't need more!

[Trisscar]

I already have this on THF while I'm waiting for step/flourish to be up. I don't see any difference. Dyna on blu/dnc, Flourish/Step, 1 melee swing/ranged attack to set TH on it, 10 secs to set new trait, step again, 5 secs later flourish, 4 secs later spells are ready. You only lost out if you procced in the first 4 JAs.

Steps don't generally take a full minute until you can use the next one, though. I don't think it takes that long even while weakened and slowed.

Also I don't see why Blue Mage should be overhauled around one event. Just cut down on the number of proc so one Blue Mage can cover them all.

[Babekeke]

Again if you are doing that for every fight the penalty is going to add up, 9 seconds + the 10~ seconds it takes to swap the spells is a big chunk of time where all you can do is swing your swords.


I already have this on THF while I'm waiting for step/flourish to be up.


Steps don't generally take a full minute until you can use the next one, though.

You missed the part that I was referring to. I wasn't saying that there's 1 min between steps lol. Oh, and slow/weakened don't affect JAs.

All BLU needs is macroable spell sets, so you only lose the 1 min cooldown, not all the extra time looking for the spells you need to set.

[Trisscar]

All BLU needs is macroable spell sets, so you only lose the 1 min cooldown, not all the extra time looking for the spells you need to set.

I like the idea of macro spell sets, but I object to the reduction or outright removal of the cool down.

If square did that, they'd likely nerf Blue Mage into oblivion as other posters have pointed out.

I also object to the ability to have all spells available at all times, for the same reason.

Honest, I don't get where all this is even coming from. Blue Mage has worked just fine the way it is for a long time, it didn't become an issue until Voidwatch. Adjust the content, not the job.

[Scuro]

^^^ Agreed, I remember kicking around the idea of macro spell lists way back when, even before Voidwatch back in the Abyssea days so glad to see that idea is still getting kicked around even after my long break. Yet honestly it will not happen, the closest it came was SE reorganizing the spell list so it actually correlates with element. Thats pretty much what that idea gave us. I would love it but most likely won't see it, and yes I think the content needs to be adjusted just as it was in Abyssea for voidwatch.

[saevel]

Why are we discussing a solution looking for a problem? The issue with blue magic cool-down is 100% inside voidwatch due to the sh!tty amount of blue procs. Reduce the procs to one or two per element like they did with SMN, problem instantly solved. Blue magic was designed with the 60s cool down in mind, messing with that would have SE "rebarance" Blue magic and I really don't want to see them nerf a job that is this awesome. The only thing BLU isn't amazing at is super boss 60s zerg fights, in every other situation it's one of the best, if not the best job in the game.