Empyrean weapon needed adjustments

[Cream_Soda]

As it is now, every Empyrean is essentially the same weapon.

Build TP to 100, 200, 300, get an identical aftermath. There aren't anything that focuses on job abilities or traits, like mythics, and there's no great special effect, like on relics (Increases critical hits on Ragnarok, Enhances counter on Spharai, Amano's ability to weaken attacks, etc.)

That being said, I think it would add uniqueness to Empyrean weapons giving each of them its own specific special quality to separate them from one another. DMG wise, they're in the middle of relics and mythics and on each end of that, you have enhancing qualities to either job abilities or the weapon itself.

Empyrean weapons should also have this.

[Vivik]

I think that's a great idea. Empyrean weapons should not live in the shadows of relics.

[Yarly]

I agree with this.

[hordecore]

Says the cheerleader :P lol go go

[Byrth]

Yo Creamsoda, I'm really happy for you, Imma let you finish but I think I have one of the best ideas of all time. One of the best of all time!

Currently 2H Empyreans get the same ODD% as 1H Empyreans, though ODD can proc on all of their swings compared to 50% of a dual wielded empyrean's swings. Monk counts as a 1H Empyrean in this case, as ODD can only proc on their second fist. The obvious solution here is to give ODD to both hands for 1H users instead of confining it to the main hand. The same should be done for Mythic 1H Aftermath level 3s, as it is a similar problem.

The second big issues with Empyreans (and Mythics, I think) are that 300TP Aftermaths do not overwrite themselves. 100TP overwrites 100TP. 200TP overwrites 100TP. 300TP overwrites 100 or 200TP, but 300TP doesn't overwrite 300TP. Assuming someone wants to keep an activated level 3 Aftermath, they need to start TPing up to 300TP before their aftermath wears off. One or two lucky Triple Attacks with a 2H Empyrean or Mythic can put you at 300TP early and waiting for your aftermath to wear off so you can reapply it. It would be easier if you could just WS as soon as you get 300TP and reset the timer like you can for 100TP. I can't imagine this would be hard to fix, and would allow for smoother gameplay.

My final issue is with multiple aftermaths at once. There's about one (quasi-)practical application of this, and that's Mythic GKT with Relic bow. I know someone with both, and he can't have both Aftermaths active at once despite being able to equip both weapons at once and use both weaponskills. Why limit it?

[Corres]

NO! your weapon procs compared to relics are unbelievable so: no!

but have to vote yes.
your signature, i curse it!!

[cidbahamut]

Says the cheerleader :P lol go go

Complete with panty shot, no less.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Wrong forum.

[Cream_Soda]

Wrong forum.
Actually no, considering it was moved here, I guess this is where they want it, lol.

[MarkovChain]

DMG wise, they're in the middle of relics and mythics

They are much better. They don't need buff either. Mythic are a fail attempt to do a weapon.

[Vivik]

Mythic are a fail attempt to do a weapon.

To do what weapon?

[Kam]

I agree they definitely need a buff in comparison to relics, which are overpowered, but on your point of the added effects -Rudra's Storm makes your WS able to crit without SA.

[Cream_Soda]

They are much better. They don't need buff either. Mythic are a fail attempt to do a weapon.
Read my quote again. You commented on something that the quote had nothing to do with

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Actually no, considering it was moved here, I guess this is where they want it, lol.It's was a part of why it was moved here. This was under SITE FEEDBACK. lol

[Michaeluk]

Lol @empyreans needing a buff of any kind. Relics and mythics do need buffing however to actually compere with the much easier to obtain overpowered empyreans.

[Ryland]

I think empyreans need a buff, because they are not as powerful as they should be. Maybe if you have an empy weapon you should be allowed to use 4 atma instead of 3! Yeah! Should also lower the entrance level for abyssea to 1.

[Mezzopiano]

The Empyrean staff needs a buff, or at least something to make it not useless like the relic/mythic staves.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Lol @empyreans needing a buff of any kind. Relics and Mythics do need buffing however to actually compere with the much easier to obtain overpowered empyreans.They don't need to compair. They're old. That's like saying the level 1 starting RSE needs to compair with empyrean+2.

[Rambus]

Is this a joke thread? mythics them selfs are not even good enough, the only thing I would say in buffing the emps is put mage stats on the staffs.

Maybe some ws should be changed, like how does bow emp ws compare to gun emp ws outside abyssea?

should some be magic based while others are crt?

and the simple aftermath and the fact some emp weapons have the lowest D when compared to mythics and relics does incatate SE intendeds for them not to overtake mythics and relics.

any different situation is likely a mistake

[Cream_Soda]

It's was a part of why it was moved here. This was under SITE FEEDBACK. lol
Damn, lol was half asleep. Was about to make this same post in a thread in that forum earlier today and I opened the sticky lol and i saw ffxi and didn't see forums.

Well on the bright side, I can go back and correct that other thread if it hasn't already been moved, lol

[Tummie]

The thing is, SE designed these weapons to have a different focus. What makes the relics special is that not only do the weapons have an enhancement/additional effect on the weapon, but the weaponskill gave an aftermath unique to each weapon.

With the Mythics, instead of each weapon enhancing, they focused on augmenting job abilities while making all of the aftermaths the same. The reason for was more than likely was due to the fact that the weaponskill wasn't specifically bound to the weapon and you could obtain the weaponskill without having the mythic. So they gave the mythic weapons Att/Acc/OAT aftermaths which really turned out to be a disappointment to most players.

Empyreans followed the same path as Mythics but instead of augmenting, they are more related to stat boosts and all of the aftermaths are alike. In the case of the mythics, it becomes pretty easy to change the aftermath because each weapon is specific to one job. The weaponskills when used on the level 99 version could have additional effects to the aftermath that suits the job. For instance, Atonement could provide an enmity boost, Tizona could provide Blue Magic Cast time -X%, Ascetics Fury could increase kick attack rate, etc.

For Empyreans, it's a bit difficult because some Empyreans have more than one job on it (Almace). Also, when you start adding special enhancements after the weaponskill is used, then the Empyreans start to become overly strong especially with the Occ Double Damage.

[Futan]

I think empyreans need a buff, because they are not as powerful as they should be. Maybe if you have an empy weapon you should be allowed to use 4 atma instead of 3! Yeah! Should also lower the entrance level for abyssea to 1.

But onry if you're wearing the empy. Else it would be OP!!!

[svengalis]

342 post already! :eek:

[Byrth]

I agree they definitely need a buff in comparison to relics, which are overpowered, but on your point of the added effects -Rudra's Storm makes your WS able to crit without SA.

As someone with a level 90 Twashtar, I feel inclined to correct you here. It does not~!

You're probably confused because Dancers can use Striking Flourish with AF3+1/2 body and make Rudra's Storm crit even though it doesn't normally. That's a property of the JA and gear, not the weapon, and it works equally well with Dancing Edge or Shark Bite (though it matters much less with them).

The only Aftermath or special effect from Rudra's Storm is the typical 1H AM1/2/3 and Gravity (fairly long-lasting and accurate, fortunately). The WS and Gravity effect are both available with the Daka +1/2, so really it's just the AM1/2/3, which only applies to the main hand.


Boooo ODD aftermath setup! Let it proc on both hands! It would still be less powerful than 2H Empyrean aftermath:
(1H Empyrean DPS * ODD rate + Offhand DPS * ODD rate)/2 < 2H Empyrean DPS*ODD rate
as long as Empyrean DPS > Offhand DPS (always true unless you're offhanding a level 90 relic or something).

[Insaniac]

I hope all the people saying emps need a damage boost are just trolling(some of you are obviously). There is not a single emp that isn't as good or better than its relic counterpart barring MAYBE the scythe because the utility of the drain effect on cata. I just haven't seen enough of Quietus to say for sure. If they give them the utility of mythics they have to nerf the damage or they will be even more out of balance. Aftermath on both hands isn't gonna happen. It's the "sacrifice" you make for dual wielding. MNKs should maybe get it but then Spharai mnks would kill themselves.

[Vortex]

You have to understand that emp weapons are the DAMAGE PATH, so that's what they are good at, DAMAGE, unlike relics/mythics they cost 0 gill unless you want to be lazy and buy all your rare/ex item from people doing the work for you.

Honestly, i like the way they were done, aside from the reason just stated above they force you to WORK for them, unlike a relic where all you need is a bunch of gill that you probably bought or spent a ton of time accumilating and just dump it all into getting stage 3 with little work needed for the attenstation and fragment.

They didn't intend for them to be a copy of the relic or mythic ones, then what would be the point in the unique factor.

[Byrth]

I'd seriously like to see my suggestions put into effect, less to even the weapons out with Mythics/Relics and more to even them out with other 2H Empyreans. Also, the 300TP Aftermath overwriting thing would just make gameplay smoother.

Relics/Mythics are old content, but acting like they're entirely outdated is a little pessimistic. Some of them are still quite competitive or outright superior to their Empyrean alternative. Some others still have situational (often defensive) uses, even if they aren't the best damage option anymore.

[Dew]

There are a few Empyreans that are a lot weaker then the rest. Ex. Masamune, Tachi: Fail isn't that good. Before anyone says this or that, I have Lv.90 Masamune and yes it is kind of weak. Look at Almace, Kanagi, Gandiva, H2h, and GA all of those are far better then some of the other Empyreans.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

There are a few Empyreans that are a lot weaker then the rest. Ex. Masamune, Tachi: Fail isn't that good. Before anyone says this or that, I have Lv.90 Masamune and yes it is kind of weak. Look at Almace, Kanagi, Gandiva, H2h, and GA all of those are far better then some of the other Empyreans.For being a kasha reskin, it still beats gekko.

[Vortex]

There are a few Empyreans that are a lot weaker then the rest. Ex. Masamune, Tachi: Fail isn't that good. Before anyone says this or that, I have Lv.90 Masamune and yes it is kind of weak. Look at Almace, Kanagi, Gandiva, H2h, and GA all of those are far better then some of the other Empyreans.

This is simply because of abyssea, if you look at verd, kannagi they are devestating due to the critical boost they get since the WS are critical damage based, this is why DRK is not getting any love because none of their WS have a critical damage mod. i'm sure Tachi:fudo would excel outside but since everything is set on abyssea it will stay on the side lines.

[Byrth]

Tachi: Fudo is probably SAM's best WS, though Kaiten with a 90 Amano should beat it in some weird situations.

Kaiten (Amano 90) - 3.75 fTP, 60% STR
Fudo (Masa 90) - 3.65 fTP, 60% STR

Fudo is going to win most of the time though, because Masa 90 has 15 STR on it and Amano has.... 35 Acc. Only time Kaiten will be better than Fudo on average is when 15 STR (and the resulting ~12 Attack) fails to make up a .1 fTP difference.

In Abyssea it doesn't stack up, but outside of Abyssea the Empyreans are pretty balanced (ignoring ODD aftermath issues).

[Nu-Hir]

I'm sure the Empyrean weapons will get all of their adjustments when they're level 99. Just look at them as unfinished weapons.

[Insaniac]

Fudo isn't THAT much better than lvl 90 Kaiten but it's about the aftermath. ODD is an insane damage boost. I've seen the same sam use both lvl 90 versions in all kinds of situations and there is no comparison. Almost every empyrean out performs and sometimes crushs their relic and mythic counterparts in and out of abyssea.

Byrth, I do agree with you on overwriting aftermaths. Even though it does add a new dimension to using the weapon it's more annoying than anything. ODD on your offhand I can't agree with though. You are dual wielding for the insane damage increase from the delay reduction already. It's a trade off. Sure 2Hs get the ODD on all hits but they also have 20-30% less delay reduction in most situations. There's also the potential stat increases from your offhand like Triple att +3% or Waltz potency or w/e. If you want ODD on all hits then you have to give up your DW delay and sub a shield =)

Also (whoever said it)please stop belittling the gil. How many people do you actually think dropped 3k dollars to buy a relic? There is no way its more than 1%. Most of us worked very very hard for either the gil or the currency or the points required to DKP a relic. It's hundreds of hours of work compared to a few days. My chloris path probably took me 16-18 hours total and about half of that was 3 manned. Ranting... sorry. Get kinda worked up about this subject.

[Alderin]

You have to understand that emp weapons are the DAMAGE PATH, so that's what they are good at, DAMAGE, unlike relics/mythics they cost 0 gill unless you want to be lazy and buy all your rare/ex item from people doing the work for you.

Honestly, i like the way they were done, aside from the reason just stated above they force you to WORK for them, unlike a relic where all you need is a bunch of gill that you probably bought or spent a ton of time accumilating and just dump it all into getting stage 3 with little work needed for the attenstation and fragment.

They didn't intend for them to be a copy of the relic or mythic ones, then what would be the point in the unique factor.

Disagree entirely. I even if relics were back up to par with Empyreans, I would much prefer to do an empyrean because not only does it cost a ridiculous amount of gil (Correct me if I am wrong as I don't own one, but ~200Million gil if you were to buy all the currency). If you ask me, that is a lot of fish and HQ elemental staves you need to craft.

A weapon that requires a little bit of grinding through trials (Killing lowby lottery NM's, a few VNM's that really doesn't take long - plus a bit more grinding in Abyssea) compared with something you need ~200 million gil for? I pick the grind anyday. It's not like you can get 200 million gil in a week.. Start to finish with a little bit of help, an Empyrean weapon can be done in a week. (At least upto the 85 version anyway).

If anything, relics are totally under powered now compared to Empyreans.

There is one thing I do agree with however - relics / mythics, much like old armour that was considered "the best" is now (for fail of a better term) old sh*t compared to a lot of the 76+ gear they have released. Empyreans are definitely not over-powered.

[Insaniac]

I agree. Empyreans don't need nerfing. It's nice that people can get an amazing weapon with out killing themselves or spending millions and millions of gil. Relics and Mythics need boosts. They deserve to be on par. Most relic WSs sucked in the first place and now SE puts out weapons that are easier to get, only have 1-3 less base damage, have stat boosts instead of superfluous att or acc and come with an aftermath that puts all relic aftermaths to shame. If you argue that as fair you aren't being objective. With the level 90 update on relics and mythics I'm hopeful that SE is working towards a balance but most weapons and WSs have a LONG LONG way to go before they compete. My heart breaks for Kikoku NINs every time I see a 6k Blade: Hi.

[MarkovChain]

I agree. Empyreans don't need nerfing. It's nice that people can get an amazing weapon with out killing themselves or spending millions and millions of gil.

But they need to make new relic weapons to balance and give people goals. I guess they'll wait for level 99 for that though.

[Insaniac]

But they need to make new relic weapons to balance and give people goals. I guess they'll wait for level 99 for that though.

SEs new style of design is to give us lots of attainable goals instead of a few nigh impossible ones. I really like the new style and I don't feel like new really hard to get weapons need to be made. Relics and Mythics need to be kept relevant though for the sake of the people who already put in the work.

[Michaeluk]

Also (whoever said it)please stop belittling the gil. How many people do you actually think dropped 3k dollars to buy a relic? There is no way its more than 1%. Most of us worked very very hard for either the gil or the currency or the points required to DKP a relic. It's hundreds of hours of work compared to a few days. My chloris path probably took me 16-18 hours total and about half of that was 3 manned. Ranting... sorry. Get kinda worked up about this subject.

Exactly the same here, sick of hearing people harp on about its only gil, and dynamis the point is these people are only saying it because they have easy mode empyreans and most won't have had a relic. I myself have both my mandau took me 2 years of hard work to get the gil i did dynamis twice a week i didnt buy none of the rare/exs.

My twashtar took me 5 days to make from start to finish. So i could careless if some of these people are saying its old content who cares if its old it took much more hardwork than empyreans and the final 99 weapons should reflect this, one can only hope. Let's not forgot these almost as manys empyreans in existance now as there is relics and look how long each set of weapons has been out, give it another 5 months and im sure there will be more empyreans in existance.

Takes longer to do the trials for the 85 relic to 90 than to actually make a full empyrean, anyways im sure no matter what is said on here se will boost relics to the top at 99 and one things for sure well find out soon enough :D.

[MarkovChain]

SEs new style of design is to give us lots of attainable goals instead of a few nigh impossible ones.
A level 90 empyreal is only attainable to a small amount of harcore players just like relic and mythics, so no.

[Michaeluk]

A level 90 empyreal is only attainable to a small amount of harcore players just like relic and mythics, so no.

Lol surely you have to be trolling with this comment.

Wow Just Wow.

[Taint]

Tachi: Fudo is probably SAM's best WS, though Kaiten with a 90 Amano should beat it in some weird situations.

Kaiten (Amano 90) - 3.75 fTP, 60% STR
Fudo (Masa 90) - 3.65 fTP, 60% STR

Fudo is going to win most of the time though, because Masa 90 has 15 STR on it and Amano has.... 35 Acc. Only time Kaiten will be better than Fudo on average is when 15 STR (and the resulting ~12 Attack) fails to make up a .1 fTP difference.

In Abyssea it doesn't stack up, but outside of Abyssea the Empyreans are pretty balanced (ignoring ODD aftermath issues).


This is all considering a WS at 100TP which for SAM of all jobs doesn't happen a lot. Sekkanoki is an Auto 200tp WS, conserve TP, Meditate, DAs, TAs, Ikishoten procs, Moonshade earring all lean in Fudo's favor and come into play quite often.

[Insaniac]

A level 90 empyreal is only attainable to a small amount of harcore players just like relic and mythics, so no.Every single lvl 85 empyrean is attainable by anyone with 2 friends. The only lvl 90 that potentially needs more than 3 people is the Briareus path cause of the stuns needed on Apademak. Don't argue, I've killed every Emp dropping NM with 2-3 people.

[Kam]

As someone with a level 90 Twashtar, I feel inclined to correct you here. It does not~!

You're probably confused because Dancers can use Striking Flourish with AF3+1/2 body and make Rudra's Storm crit even though it doesn't normally. That's a property of the JA and gear, not the weapon, and it works equally well with Dancing Edge or Shark Bite (though it matters much less with them).

The only Aftermath or special effect from Rudra's Storm is the typical 1H AM1/2/3 and Gravity (fairly long-lasting and accurate, fortunately). The WS and Gravity effect are both available with the Daka +1/2, so really it's just the AM1/2/3, which only applies to the main hand.


Boooo ODD aftermath setup! Let it proc on both hands! It would still be less powerful than 2H Empyrean aftermath:
(1H Empyrean DPS * ODD rate + Offhand DPS * ODD rate)/2 < 2H Empyrean DPS*ODD rate
as long as Empyrean DPS > Offhand DPS (always true unless you're offhanding a level 90 relic or something).

no ur wrong

[MarkovChain]

Every single lvl 85 empyrean is attainable by anyone with 2 friends. The only lvl 90 that potentially needs more than 3 people is the Briareus path cause of the stuns needed on Apademak. Don't argue, I've killed every Emp dropping NM with 2-3 people.

You can duo a mythic easily.

[Insaniac]

Yeah you're just trolling now.

[Denabond]

You can duo a mythic easily.

Hmmmm last I heard, minimum requirement to enter salvage was 3 ppl? Also, its awesome knowing its possible to duo Odin, Gurfurler the Menacing, Medusa, and Mamool Beastman king (forgot the name).

[Rambus]

Mythic is not good at mage utility so maybe emp can try a shot at it? or do you expect SE to do great changes to mythics?

Maybe some need buff if they do not outperform other weapons like magians of that type but that is hard to believe. I seen futo outside abyssea with just the futo only (emp NQ) and it was good damage. I would hear comments like that mob is strong to everything… but not to futo.

Can someone explain what the main objective to this thread or is it joke?

[Cream_Soda]

The main objective of the thread is to get emps the adjustments they deserve.

[Michaeluk]

The main objective of the thread is to get emps the adjustments they deserve.

Yeah a nice nerf for them would indeed be awsome. I'd say lets reduce the odd aftermath to 100tp = 10% 200tp 12.5% 300tp 15%

[Rambus]

As it is now, every Empyrean is essentially the same weapon.

Build TP to 100, 200, 300, get an identical aftermath. There aren't anything that focuses on job abilities or traits, like mythics, and there's no great special effect, like on relics (Increases critical hits on Ragnarok, Enhances counter on Spharai, Amano's ability to weaken attacks, etc.)

That being said, I think it would add uniqueness to Empyrean weapons giving each of them its own specific special quality to separate them from one another. DMG wise, they're in the middle of relics and mythics and on each end of that, you have enhancing qualities to either job abilities or the weapon itself.

Empyrean weapons should also have this.


I do not understand what you want emp weapons to do, it is too vague.

can you be more detail? what weapons you expect to be booted and how?

[Cream_Soda]

Yeah a nice nerf for them would indeed be awsome. I'd say lets reduce the odd aftermath to 100tp = 10% 200tp 12.5% 300tp 15%
Not really. 100 tp = 10%? Triple procs are 5% on mandau, spharai, etc, which is the same as getting double damage 10% of the time and no ws is required for that and it's all the time, not for a limited amount of time.

[Cream_Soda]

I do not understand what you want emp weapons to do, it is too vague.

can you be more detail? what weapons you expect to be booted and how?


Well in general, Byrth summed it up pretty nicely


Currently 2H Empyreans get the same ODD% as 1H Empyreans, though ODD can proc on all of their swings compared to 50% of a dual wielded empyrean's swings. Monk counts as a 1H Empyrean in this case, as ODD can only proc on their second fist. The obvious solution here is to give ODD to both hands for 1H users instead of confining it to the main hand. The same should be done for Mythic 1H Aftermath level 3s, as it is a similar problem.

The second big issues with Empyreans (and Mythics, I think) are that 300TP Aftermaths do not overwrite themselves. 100TP overwrites 100TP. 200TP overwrites 100TP. 300TP overwrites 100 or 200TP, but 300TP doesn't overwrite 300TP. Assuming someone wants to keep an activated level 3 Aftermath, they need to start TPing up to 300TP before their aftermath wears off. One or two lucky Triple Attacks with a 2H Empyrean or Mythic can put you at 300TP early and waiting for your aftermath to wear off so you can reapply it. It would be easier if you could just WS as soon as you get 300TP and reset the timer like you can for 100TP. I can't imagine this would be hard to fix, and would allow for smoother gameplay.

My final issue is with multiple aftermaths at once. There's about one (quasi-)practical application of this, and that's Mythic GKT with Relic bow. I know someone with both, and he can't have both Aftermaths active at once despite being able to equip both weapons at once and use both weaponskills. Why limit it? A good place to start is fixing what's currently wrong w/ them.

After that, I'm not asking for anything specific. It seems vague because it's open ended. Each relic, mythic, and emp have an aftermath. Mythics enhance JAs and/or job traits etc and have stats. Relics enhance things (like crit hit rate, or counter) and some have stats (or just multiple things they enhance). Emps just have stats. They should get something extra, just as relics and mythics have.

[Rambus]

Not really. 100 tp = 10%? Triple procs are 5% on mandau, spharai, etc, which is the same as getting double damage 10% of the time and no ws is required for that and it's all the time, not for a limited amount of time.

K

it should be 100 tp 5%, 200 tp 10% 300 TP 15% then

not like it is hard to get tp every 30 seconds to keep it up

has to be joke thread.....

[Cream_Soda]

it should be 100 tp 5%, 200 tp 10% 300 TP 15% then

And what are you basing this on?

If it were going to be such a small percent, should just be on perma, lol. Same as with the relics.

[Michaeluk]

Not really. 100 tp = 10%? Triple procs are 5% on mandau, spharai, etc, which is the same as getting double damage 10% of the time and no ws is required for that and it's all the time, not for a limited amount of time.

2 hand weapons don't get triple procs, something like 6-8% double proc isn't it. What i said above is what they should be nerfed down to, not like it matters empyreans currently get 30,40,50% odd and yet you feel they need buffing maybe that car accident you were in a while back affected your brain slightly.

[Cream_Soda]

not like it is hard to get tp every 30 seconds to keep it up
It is when you're avoiding ruby lights

[Insaniac]

5% is an exaggeration. It's more like 3-4%. It's also a different type of triple damage. Mandau triple damage seems to triple the base damage of your weapon or something along those lines. Emp ODD is a direct 2x multiplier of the damage you would have done. Also the Relic damage increase can only proc on the first swing of any attack round. For example the 2nd and 3rd attacks of a triple attack can not gain the mandau damage bonus while an emp could proc on all 3 swings.

The unfortunate thing about this discussion is that very few players have both a relic and an empyrean. Being one of those people I feel I have a certain understanding and I'm more trying to enlighten than I am trying to debate.

[Byrth]

Byrth, I do agree with you on overwriting aftermaths. Even though it does add a new dimension to using the weapon it's more annoying than anything. ODD on your offhand I can't agree with though. You are dual wielding for the insane damage increase from the delay reduction already. It's a trade off. Sure 2Hs get the ODD on all hits but they also have 20-30% less delay reduction in most situations. There's also the potential stat increases from your offhand like Triple att +3% or Waltz potency or w/e. If you want ODD on all hits then you have to give up your DW delay and sub a shield =)

2H Empyreans (like Ukon) also WS harder due to their higher base damage, which makes up a lot of ground. This is less true inside abyssea than it will be outside. 1H weapons have always had the DPS advantage, and 2H weapons make up the difference with much stronger WSs. Denying 1H weapons OADD on the offhand makes the Empyrean Aftermath that much less attractive. If Rudra's gave 30% ODD to both hands, I'd be using it over Dancing Edge outside of Abyssea. As it is, Dancing Edge is better for my overall damage.


This is all considering a WS at 100TP which for SAM of all jobs doesn't happen a lot. Sekkanoki is an Auto 200tp WS, conserve TP, Meditate, DAs, TAs, Ikishoten procs, Moonshade earring all lean in Fudo's favor and come into play quite often.

Ah yeah. It loses even at 100TP due to the 15 STR, but it gets crushed with Moonshade and stuff.

[Rambus]

And what are you basing this on?

If it were going to be such a small percent, should just be on perma, lol. Same as with the relics.

your own quote, can't you see?


Not really. 100 tp = 10%? Triple procs are 5% on mandau, spharai, etc, which is the same as getting double damage 10% of the time and no ws is required for that and it's all the time, not for a limited amount of time.

You are being too vauge you are not offering real fixes , are you sure you are not doing this as bait?

what is current ODD rate on emp?

[Cream_Soda]

2 hand weapons don't get triple procs, something like 6-8% double proc isn't it. What i said above is what they should be nerfed down to, not like it matters empyreans currently get 30,40,50% odd and yet you feel they need buffing maybe that car accident you were in a while back affected your brain slightly.
Well, did you see me post a 2handed weapon when I was naming things?

But if you want to put it that way, they could even it out and keep the double damage procs on the 2handed weapons ODD for emps and change the ODD to OTD (triple damage) for non 2handers.

Great idea.

[Cream_Soda]

your own quote, can't you see?



You are being too vauge you are not offering real fixes , are you sure you are not doing this as bait?
I'm not a game designer. SE would be better at coming up w/ specific things to add than I would. I'm just saying they're left out as they have the least amount of uniqueness to them.

[Michaeluk]

Well, did you see me post a 2handed weapon when I was naming things?

But if you want to put it that way, they could even it out and keep the double damage procs on the 2handed weapons ODD for emps and change the ODD to OTD (triple damage) for non 2handers.

Great idea.

Bait all you like Tiger i'm sure se will put relics back on top @ 99 hopefully the update in May shows the start of this process.

[Rambus]

2 hand weapons don't get triple procs, something like 6-8% double proc isn't it. What i said above is what they should be nerfed down to, not like it matters empyreans currently get 30,40,50% odd and yet you feel they need buffing maybe that car accident you were in a while back affected your brain slightly.

ODD rate really needs to be tone down if they can go off each hit, not just first one like relics.

town the ODD greatly like i said or ODD on first hit only, what do you perffer?

[Cream_Soda]

Bait all you like Tiger i'm sure se will put relics back on top @ 99 hopefully the update in May shows the start of this process.
I'm sure some relics will go on top, however, there are some, that unless get RADICAL adjustments, won't see the light of day for DD'ing.

For example, Spharai. They can boost Final Heaven all they want, even after a 25% hike, it still only matches asuran. W/o a new crit WS, nothing is going to stand to smite in combination w/ Impetus, which is like a mini razed ruins that you can take w/ you outside of abyssea.

[Cream_Soda]

ODD rate really needs to be tone down if they can go off each hit, not just first one like relics.

town the ODD greatly like i said or ODD on first hit only, what do you perffer?
Well, DW emps can't make the offhand proc and vereth still only proc on one fist.

[Insaniac]

2H Empyreans (like Ukon) also WS harder due to their higher base damage, which makes up a lot of ground. This is less true inside abyssea than it will be outside. 1H weapons have always had the DPS advantage, and 2H weapons make up the difference with much stronger WSs. Denying 1H weapons OADD on the offhand makes the Empyrean Aftermath that much less attractive. If Rudra's gave 30% ODD to both hands, I'd be using it over Dancing Edge outside of Abyssea. As it is, Dancing Edge is better for my overall damage.

Are you basing this on DNC? I thought we were talking about THF. DNC isn't a strictly DD job and shouldn't be doing anywhere near the damage a true DD is doing. If you are on THF your rudras are going to be on par with or better than Ukko's outside of abyssea. You have to expect discrepancies between different classes of jobs. Atmas have made us forget that we aren't all true DD classes.

[Rambus]

Well, DW emps can't make the offhand proc and vereth still only proc on one fist.


so how does ODD work on emps? I was told they can go off on all hits like barrage?

or is that only on double attacks they can go off on and such?'

can you double attack a jump and have ODD hit on both hits?

[Michaeluk]

ODD rate really needs to be tone down if they can go off each hit, not just first one like relics.

town the ODD greatly like i said or ODD on first hit only, what do you perffer?

I'd happily settle with the hidden dmg boosts on relics been increased. Failing that i think most aftermaths could do with a complete overhaul.

[Insaniac]

Well, DW emps can't make the offhand proc and vereth still only proc on one fist.

There's a very good reason for this. I've explained it already. HtH is the only one you have a point on.

[Cream_Soda]

so how does ODD work on emps? I was told they can go off on all hits like barrage?

or is that only on double attacks they can go off on and such?
I haven't paid attention, personally. You'd have to ask Byrth or someone else if they want to speak up. I just know for certain that they can't proc on both fists for h2h. (the same as Spharai, which can also proc on 1 fist for triple damage)

[Michaeluk]

so how does ODD work on emps? I was told they can go off on all hits like barrage?

or is that only on double attacks they can go off on and such?'

can you double attack a jump and have ODD hit on both hits?

They have various odd from 30-50% depending on tp when the user weaponskills. Odd can't proc on ws.

[Insaniac]

I'd happily settle with the hidden dmg boosts on relics been increased. Failing that i think most aftermaths could do with a complete overhaul.

It's mostly the WSs that need changing imo. Catastrophe, Kaiten, and Mercy Stroke are the only ones that were really good in the first place. Most are complete crap and have always been outclassed by standard WSs. Relic WSs should do more than empyrean but the field would be leveled by the crazy ODD aftermath.

[Rambus]

They have various odd from 30-50% depending on tp when the user weaponskills. Odd can't proc on ws.

I know that but I need to know how they act with DW or ODD on double attacks to make an informed statment on it.

I herd this one friend say it can ODD on any barrage arrow making it do crazy damage when you compare it to relic or mythic.

what about double attack off jumps? can ODD proc on each hit?

[Michaeluk]

I haven't paid attention, personally. You'd have to ask Byrth or someone else if they want to speak up. I just know for certain that they can't proc on both fists for h2h. (the same as Spharai, which can also proc on 1 fist for triple damage)

While spharai can do a triple dmg the proc rate it is such a low proc rate its laughable you feel the need to compare them, Verethragna blows spharai out of the water in dd terms thanks to it's odd aftermath and highley damaging weaponskill.

[Cream_Soda]

I was told the ODD doesn't proc on jumps at all in a drg thread and I know personally they can't proc on mnk's kick attacks.

[Cream_Soda]

While spharai can do a triple dmg the proc rate it is such a low proc rate its laughable you feel the need to compare them, Verethragna blows spharai out of the water in dd terms thanks to it's odd aftermath and highley damaging weaponskill.
It's only the WS, really. It was mathed out that if Spharai had Victory smite, they'd beat Vereth, even when looking at ODD.

and I don't see how the triple proc rate is laughable. It's only 5%, yes, but that's equiv to 10% double damage procs at full time. I wouldn't call that laughable. Take those procs away and you'd deal a considerable amount damage less over all.

[Alderin]

I disagree with changing Emp's at all.

In effect currently the power order goes like this:-
Empyrean > Relic > Mythic

Augments / aftermath etc
Empyrean > Relic >=< Mythic (depending on the weapon, some mythics have better augs then their relic counterparts)

Attainability (From easiest to hardest)
Empyrean > Relic > Mythic.

The proper power order based on difficulty to get should essentially be:
Relic > Mythic > Empyrean

Empyreans do not need to be adjusted at all. Relics and Mythics do, drastically. Overpowered or not - I believe some people are forgetting that proud relic owners have essentially spent ~200Mil gil on their weapons. Empyreans have been obtained *practically* overnight.

My vote - buff up relics and mythics for the proud owners out there. Leave us less fortunate people that havnt had the time or patience with the lesser of the 3x ultimate weapons.

[Insaniac]

I can confirm first hand ODD cant proc on Jumps but Neither can Gungirs hidden effect. I can also confirm first hand the empyrean ODD will proc on any hit of a double attack or triple attack.

[Cream_Soda]

Attainability (From easiest to hardest)
Empyrean > Mythic > Relic.
WRONG.

Mythics are way more difficult to get than relics.

[Kitkat]

Most of the Emp weapons do 1.5-3x the peak WS dmg (speaking of in Abyssea), ODD processes way more often than a relics 2.5-3x dmg hidden effect, and you people honestly think they need a BOOST?!? The OP even says Relics are over powered?!?! How the hell is a 3% difference in base damage overpowered compared to a weapon that can ODD way more often? How are the WS of a Relic better than Emp when the add effects are hardly noticeable and there is no real buff to the WS outside the Stats for the WS themselves? Not to mention that for Emp more tp = longer aftermath and increases the WS dmg/crit chance/ignore def while for Relics more tp only adds a longer aftermath.

To the person complaining about Fudo having a lower Base TP Mod, take a look at the description of your WS:

Tachi: Fudo
Description: Deals double damage. Damage varies with TP. Masamune: Aftermath.

Tachi: Kaiten
Description: Additional effect: temporarily increases amount of TP stored with each hit.

Honestly, if most of you aren't trolls then you really need to do your homework on how vastly better your weapons are compared to relics right now. There is only 3 or so Emp WS that are equal/comparable to Relic WS, but their ODD aftermath still makes them better than the relic in the long run.

[Rambus]

I can confirm first hand ODD cant proc on Jumps but Neither can Gungirs hidden effect. I can also confirm first hand the empyrean ODD will proc on any hit of a double attack or triple attack.

MY ls leader had crazy jump damage, how do you explain the hidden not working on jump?

[Cream_Soda]

The OP even says Relics are over powered?!?!

I never said relics were overpowered.

[Cream_Soda]

MY ls leader had crazy jump damage, how do you explain the hidden not working on jump?
Triple attack and crit proc on all 3. Jumps can crit.

[Insaniac]

Attainability (From easiest to hardest)
Empyrean > Mythic > Relic.

Empyrean > Relic > Mythic*

There is a ton of other work involved in finishing a mythic even if you buy all the alexandrites. Mythics however were supposed to be about utility and not raw damage. SE failed to realize when designing them that for DDs Raw Damage trumps utility every time. Then on top of that they didn't even make the utility that great on most of the weapons.

Boost Relic damage. MEGA-BOOST Mythic utility and every reasonable person will be happy.

[Rambus]

Triple attack and crit proc on all 3. Jumps can crit.


Wasn't talking in abysssea era, i know that can happen



Boost Relic damage. MEGA-BOOST Mythic utility and every reasonable person will be happy.

YES! ^

[Insaniac]

MY ls leader had crazy jump damage, how do you explain the hidden not working on jump?

A triple crit spirit or soul jump will do 2000-2500 damage in abyssea.

Edit: Be more specific. How much damage are you talking about and on what mobs.

[Cream_Soda]

Wasn't talking in abysssea era, i know that can happen



YES! ^
Yes, but outside of abyssea, you have a what? 24% crit rate and 1% triple attack (homam body) vs inside abyssea 15%+ triple attack rate w/ 54-74% crit rate (depending on atmas). As well as being much closer to, if not, capped fstr which you certainly weren't getting before, etc etc.

[Rambus]

75 great birds , 1.2k ish if i remember right.

no tripple attack

[Alderin]

Empyrean > Relic > Mythic*

There is a ton of other work involved in finishing a mythic even if you buy all the alexandrites. Mythics however were supposed to be about utility and not raw damage. SE failed to realize when designing them that for DDs Raw Damage trumps utility every time. Then on top of that they didn't even make the utility that great on most of the weapons.

Boost Relic damage. MEGA-BOOST Mythic utility and every reasonable person will be happy.

Ah right, shows how much I know about Mythic weapons then. Will edit with the correction.

All in all, as a non-relic owner, you relic owners have a +1 on my vote. You guys have been majorly gipped since Empyreans were released.

[Rambus]

could be wrong i guess so the only thing you can get this ODD or hidden effect is on barrage?

[Cream_Soda]

Ah right, shows how much I know about Mythic weapons then. Will edit with the correction.

All in all, as a non-relic owner, you relic owners have a +1 on my vote. You guys have been majorly gipped since Empyreans were released.
Riiiiight because going from 1st to 2nd place (third minimum) and still utterly owning the crap out of everything else in the game is "majorly gipped"

[Alderin]

WRONG.

Mythics are way more difficult to get than relics.

Dude, chill. I stand corrected.

Man your signature is hypnotising >_> couldnt think of a decent response to have a whinge to you because of it.

[Alistaire]

Is this a joke thread?

This forum continues to amaze me, I'm agreeing with Rambus again. Nobody agreeing with the OP has any idea how these weapons stack up to relics or mythics. Seriously, with all due respect, anyone thinking Empyreans need a boost should actually look into how much they blow the other weapons away.

[Cream_Soda]

Dude, chill. I stand corrected.

Man your signature is hypnotising >_> couldnt think of a decent response to have a whinge to you because of it.
It's probably the panty shot

[Insaniac]

75 great birds , 1.2k ish if i remember right.

no tripple attack

I've done 1.5k with V fork @ 75 so this was probably just a double crit. We would have seen SSs of 2.2k~ jumps with Gungnir @ 75 if the hidden effect could proc on jumps and afaik none of those exist.

[Cream_Soda]

This forum continues to amaze me, I'm agreeing with Rambus again. Nobody agreeing with the OP has any idea how these weapons stack up to relics or mythics. Seriously, with all due respect, anyone thinking Empyreans need a boost should actually look into how much they blow the other weapons away.
I assure you, I know exactly how all 3 work.

[Alderin]

Riiiiight because going from 1st to 2nd place (third minimum) and still utterly owning the crap out of everything else in the game is "majorly gipped"

Could say the same for the relic owners. Especially when all these overnight weapons are overpowered compared to the weapons that people took years to create?

I don't understand your logic. You want to BOOST something that is already the best in the game, and easiest to get? I understand where SE is going with things but don't you think Relic owners should get more then a pat on the back for spending the crazy amount of time / gil that is required?

I am not saying to reduce Empyreans - I am saying to BOOST Relics and Mythics compared to Empyreans. Order of power should still be Relic > Mythic > Empyrean.

I believe your suggestion is flawed. Empyreans do not need boosting at all.

The end.

[Insaniac]

Riiiiight because going from 1st to 2nd place (third minimum) and still utterly owning the crap out of everything else in the game is "majorly gipped"From your posts I can tell you don't have a relic. You can't appreciate the effort it takes to get one. Having a weapon you can duo/trio in a week outclass your months or even years of work is MAJORLY messed up.

[Rambus]

I've done 1.5k with V fork @ 75 so this was probably just a double crit. We would have seen SSs of 2.2k~ jumps with Gungnir @ 75 if the hidden effect could proc on jumps and afaik none of those exist.

1.5k ? dang maybe i was not using food or something I never got that high even on a tripple attack, lest it seemed that way based on tp back.

I do macro homan body in my jumps, though I did not adjust my drg in the 90 era yet.

[Kitkat]

I never said relics were overpowered.

Let me rephrase then. You make it sound like the Additional effects somehow out classes Emp weapons that don't need an additional effect to out damage a relic weapon. It was actually the guy below you that made it sound like Relics were overpowered with his statement about Emp weapons living in Relics shadows (which isn't even remotely true).

Having seen the big difference between Relic GK and Emp GK I can tell you there is very very little SE could add to an Emp weapon without nerfing something else. Right now Emp weapons are unbalanced and what you're asking only makes the weapons stupidly unbalanced. Don't mean to jump your case....but like a lot of relic owners I'm getting tired of people saying Relics are "fine" the way they are right now.

[Cream_Soda]

You may not understand my logic, but I certainly do not understand yours. You keep wanting to go in order of difficulty and yet you keep putting relics ahead of mythics, when mythics are much more difficult to obtain.

[Alderin]

It's probably the panty shot

Nah it's simply how ridiculously stupid it is.

[Cream_Soda]

Let me rephrase then. You make it sound like the Additional effects somehow out classes Emp weapons that don't need an additional effect to out damage a relic weapon. It was actually the guy below you that made it sound like Relics were overpowered with his statement about Emp weapons living in Relics shadows (which isn't even remotely true).

Haven't seen the big difference between Relic GK and Emp GK I can tell you there is very very little SE could add to an Emp weapon without nerfing something else. Right now Emp weapons are unbalanced and what you're asking only makes the weapons stupidly unbalanced. Don't mean to jump your case....but like a lot of relic owners I'm getting tired of people saying Relics are "fine" the way they are right now.
I never said I thought or even implied that relics/mythics outclassed emps because of their additional effects. I simply said that relics/mythics have a rather large amount of uniqueness to them where as empies are pretty bland and aside form the ws, all the same.

All I want is some uniqueness to be added to the weapons.

[Cream_Soda]

Nah it's simply how ridiculously stupid it is.
Oh man, someone doesn't like my sig. I must take it down right away!

[Insaniac]

You may not understand my logic, but I certainly do not understand yours. You keep wanting to go in order of difficulty and yet you keep putting relics ahead of mythics, when mythics are much more difficult to obtain.

Only 1 person suggested relics > mythics > emps that I saw. Mythics have always been about utility but SE failed to give them enough utility for the amount of work they require. All 3 of them should be tied for best weapon for different reasons.

As it stand now it's unarguably:

Emp > Relic > Mythic

in all but maybe 2 cases.

[Cenz]

A level 90 empyreal is only attainable to a small amount of harcore players just like relic and mythics, so no.

um... yes and no... I did as anyone can do .... 85-90 with shout groups ... 6 man dragua for my 90 verethagna... this is not the case with apademak.... but the "jormy" would be the same as dragua easy fights just takes a little longer... Chloris was way more of a pain to farm but easy kill ... and lol @ camping f'n Amun against 3 other ls's every day ... which i also did with alot of shout groups so i didnt have to make my ls do the weapon for me ;p... while i am a veteran player... my group was surely not

[Rambus]

You may not understand my logic, but I certainly do not understand yours. You keep wanting to go in order of difficulty and yet you keep putting relics ahead of mythics, when mythics are much more difficult to obtain.
SE did not program their intent correctly, they wanted mythics to be quest based, 30 000 money and gil spent for ein is not quest based.

all they did was make it 50 000 to 30 000, when they did that i did submit suggestions it still was not enough change.

relics where bad ( some of them anyway) since day 1, all mythics but WHM club, SMN staff, COR gun was bad since day 1, now with emp gun cor mythic is bad

all the rest of the weapons are really got to be subpar when magin trials first came out, and that has not changed.

so it takes these OP emps for people to really speak out on them

[Cream_Soda]

Only 1 person suggested relics > mythics > emps that I saw. Mythics have always been about utility but SE failed to give them enough utility for the amount of work they require. All 3 of them should be tied for best weapon for different reasons.

As it stand now it's unarguably:

Emp > Relic > Mythic

in all but maybe 2 cases.
The person I was talking to with what you quoted was the person who said relics were the hardest to get.

[Alderin]

You may not understand my logic, but I certainly do not understand yours. You keep wanting to go in order of difficulty and yet you keep putting relics ahead of mythics, when mythics are much more difficult to obtain.

My logic is simple.

Empyrean weapons do not need to be boosted.

Relics AND Mythics do. Forget about attainability order if that's messing with your small brain.

Empyreans = New, easy to get, & currently the strongest weapons in the game.
Mythic & Relic = Old (which means people have had them long before Abyssea and have missed out on any decent updates), take a long arse time to obtain, and are currently weak compared to the new kid on the block.

Empyrean = Fine where it is
Relic & Mythic = Need a boost.

Did I simplify it for you at all?

/ragequit

[Jamesruglia]

Yes, pump up Empyrean weapons! They're awesome, relic weapons are weak. Sell all your ancient currency away. >.>"

[Kitkat]

Each weapon is unique on the fact they have a variety of WS TP Mod differences and overall strikes. While some are only 1hit, some are up to 4 hit. All relic are 1 hit regardless of animation and have no WS TP mod scaling. Currently there isn't much that could be added/changed to this without having to give up something else in exchange is the primary problem.

Additionally, something you said later in the topic, it isn't up to SE to come up with all the ideas to change something. If you want something to be added to the weapon you need to give constructive feedback, not just demand a change otherwise the same mentality comes to play that you are seeing from some of us. The weapons are powerful in the state they currently have...to ask for more is to make them even more powerful without any alternative to offset the addition of the add effects.

[annewandering]

What I would like is club to be more useful for parties. In abyssea whm is, naturally, doing its job in the backline so what use does it have of club and how could it be actually useful? I am thinking something to maybe get tp going since whm, for sure, does not get tp naturally in party.
Would it be useful to have a tp gain feature? The reason being, of course, that for procs whm wouldnt be out there meleeing, overly long, to get tp instead of doing their regular job.
If instead of tp gain what else would be useful?
What I see is that while meleeing whm regular jobs are neglected. Perhaps something to help with that?
Honestly I am fishing for ideas and any useful ones would be appreciated.

[Rambus]

I point to this if you want to know my views on mythics and what needs changing:

yeah 14-16k would hurt since its your 4th dang /confort.

I would love the order to be relic>mythic emp. but a lot of fixing needs to achive that

casting damage needs a relic ( mages are not melee lol claustrum)




relics are easer to fix then mythics in my opion, relics just need the WS stronger ( at 75 most of the ws was weak anyway)

problems of mythics:
mythics need a level 3 skillchain protperty

mythics like brd dagger, rdm sword, BLM staff needs more use then being macros.

PLD sword needs to pad PLD's damage a bit

SCH staff needs to be upgraded from useless

RNG mythic needs to be upgraded from useless ( hint trueflight is not a good ws)

DRK needs relic and mythic to be upreagred form useless. ( effect of ws and ws damage is bad for both)

COR gun: WS needs fixing

MNK mythic ( dont know pad ws to out do emp i guess/ better after effect)

THF ( affter effect/ WS issue)

SAM: different enchancement, maybe hasso, seigan, change affer effects, better ws

NIN: augement Yonin/Innin, better ws, better after effect

DRG: ( this looks decent actally, maybe better after effect, increase drakesbane damage when used by ryunohige)

BLU, PUP, DNC pretty much the same, better ws and after effect.

some other ways of changing relics/ mythics, allow a quest to gain acess to emp ws and let emp ws trigger the aftermaths

some mythic ws are bad I don't know if they are worth changing but giving them acess to the emp ws.
If SE wants mythics to be stuck on thier mythic ws , the mythic ws under mythic weapon needs to be a lot better, and granted a level 3 property.

some mythics have good ws like drakesbane so might be easier to fix.

like to see mythics fixed so its more of every 20 emps i see, i see 5 relics and 1 mythic

and that mythic tends to be SMN staff or WHM club.

[Cream_Soda]

My logic is simple.

Empyrean weapons do not need to be boosted.

Relics AND Mythics do. Forget about attainability order if that's messing with your small brain.

Empyreans = New, easy to get, & currently the strongest weapons in the game.
Mythic & Relic = Old (which means people have had them long before Abyssea and have missed out on any decent updates), take a long arse time to obtain, and are currently weak compared to the new kid on the block.

Empyrean = Fine where it is
Relic & Mythic = Need a boost.

Did I simplify it for you at all?

/ragequit
There's no need to get mad

[Vivik]

Relics are just that, old. Make empyrean better and make the relic/mythic easier to obtain.

[Insaniac]

Relics are just that, old. Make empyrean better and make the relic/mythic easier to obtain.

You're right... screw everyone who devoted 100x the effort to their weapons because they did it first when it was harder to obtain..... Worst. suggestion. ever.

[Kitkat]

Relics are just that, old. Make empyrean better and make the relic/mythic easier to obtain.

Yeah, you're the troll. No need to make them better when currently they are the "best" in the DD department. Like I said earlier, you can't have something new without sacrificing something else. You want more for your weapon...then I expect your weapons damage potential to get nerfed to offset the addition.

Just because something is old doesn't mean it should be obsolete, hence the reason SE is trying to keep relic/mythic in the race.

[Alderin]

Relics are just that, old. Make empyrean better and make the relic/mythic easier to obtain.

I am sure the many people that put their blood, sweat and tears into their relics would agree with you.

Instead of spending a week to get the best weapon in the game, let's spend months / years on getting a mediocre weapon that does half the WS damage with average aftermath effects.

You think the many owners of relics would agree with that?

I will mention once more - I am not a relic / mythic owner, however I believe they should get more then a pat on the back for their work.

[hiko]

Relics are just that, old. Make empyrean better and make the relic/mythic easier to obtain.

they are making relic easier to obtain (free dyna entry every day)

[Byrth]

Are you basing this on DNC? I thought we were talking about THF. DNC isn't a strictly DD job and shouldn't be doing anywhere near the damage a true DD is doing. If you are on THF your rudras are going to be on par with or better than Ukko's outside of abyssea. You have to expect discrepancies between different classes of jobs. Atmas have made us forget that we aren't all true DD classes.

It depends how often you assume they can SA/TA Rudra's, but DNC out-DDs THF in many situations thanks to Haste Samba and our choice of 30-48% Dual Wield. If the THF can't reliably SA/TA Rudra's, then they should be using Dancing Edge outside Abyssea, same as Dancer.

Whether by accident or design, Dancer is a pretty formidable DD. It's probably not top tier, but it's much stronger than I expected when I was leveling it. Since then it has been nothing but Buff Buff Buff for the job's DD capabilities.

[Rambus]

what Insaniac, Kitkat, Alderin said.

let me get this fact though your head Vivik, you can SOLO emps if you choose all the way to 90 stage, like others said, you have eny idea the time OTHERS PUT IN for someome's relic/ mythic?

you are not going to solo a relic, mythic, you can't.

the only way you can say that if you pay someone/ pay a group to do the parts that are not soloable , but guess what? your still using other groups time, even if you pay for it its still not real solo.

emps are COMPLETEY soloable.

old =/= outdated, this is not wow.

[Vivik]

You're right... screw everyone who devoted 100x the effort to their weapons because they did it first when it was harder to obtain..... Worst. suggestion. ever.

What is worse is to assume I give a damn about relic holders.

[Rambus]

What is worse is to assume I give a damn about relic holders.

Do you realize you're talking to some?

[Vivik]

old =/= outdated, this is not wow.

What makes me giggle is when anyone compares any game to WoW. It pretty much makes anything else you say irrelevant.

[Insaniac]

I don't wanna get too deep in the DNC discussion because I'm not an expert on the job but giving any DW job ODD proc on both hands would drastically over power the 1H weapons. The combination of DW delay reduction and 30-50% ODD would be outlandish. It's balanced with 2hs as it is. Do the math for yourself and you will see what I mean.

[Rambus]

What makes me giggle is when anyone compares any game to WoW. It pretty much makes anything else you say irrelevant.

Saying new should always be better is a WoW mindset (in my opinion). WoW is a game where it just gets newer gear and easier to do. It might happen on other games but that game is common to be aware of. There may be some things that are hard and challenging but what I said is the main trend of the game, to my knowable. Anyone that plays wow a lot and know the game well, feel free to correct me.


[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

your words are your fault

The DW issue I am glad to hear ODD does not happen on DW, with haste DNC can get and you do the double attack , a DNC in DD mode would be OP, if not already

[Insaniac]

What is worse is to assume I give a damn about relic holders.You don't care about relic holders because you are mad you could never get one. This pretty much sums up everyone who trolls people with relics.

[Capn]

In hopes of them doing this with the next trials? ^^ (90-99 is still not here yet!)

[Ica]

You don't care about relic holders because you are mad you could never get one. This pretty much sums up everyone who trolls people with relics.

Or it's just good fun because people get so upset!

[Rambus]

In hopes of them doing this with the next trials? ^^ (90-99 is still not here yet!)

That is why people are here, if SE does not want to correct it now, it should be with those.

We are here making sure it happens or try show SE it should happen since it did not happen yet


Or it's just good fun because people get so upset!

To attack a person to attack or ague for the sake for arguing is violate the ToS.

[Vivik]

You don't care about relic holders because you are mad you could never get one. This pretty much sums up everyone who trolls people with relics.

Dynamis is boring and I'm glad they are making getting a relic less of a time sink. Mad, no. I have always accepted the fact that I could not invest the time into getting one. But I have helped a few friends with theirs.

[Ica]

To attack a person to attack or ague for the sake for arguing is violate the ToS.

Good thing no one attacked relic holders in this thread then, they just stated their opinion!

[Cream_Soda]

You don't care about relic holders because you are mad you could never get one. This pretty much sums up everyone who trolls people with relics.
Mad is about what sums up relic holders, lol

[Insaniac]

I'm not upset about people like that guy who's name starts with a V on the previous page. It's only natural.. as they say, "Haters gonna hate". It does bother me that there is an imbalance of effort vs. reward though. I did an empyrean and I fully support both mythic and relic being equal or superior. Even if I didn't also have a relic I would feel the same way. Effort should always reflect reward no matter how long ago that effort was put forth.

[Insaniac]

Ugh this has ceased being an interesting conversation. I always notice this about 30 posts too late. Our points are made and any reasonable, objective observer can see them. I'm out~

[MarkovChain]

Hmmmm last I heard, minimum requirement to enter salvage was 3 ppl? Also, its awesome knowing its possible to duo Odin, Gurfurler the Menacing, Medusa, and Mamool Beastman king (forgot the name).

ToAU stronghold hnm are easy with +15 levels, and yes you can enter salvage with 2 you are a bit late to the fest, although it would be dumb to collect alexandrites this way.

edit : nvm getting odin's title is too hard with +15 levels haha.

[Francisco]

You're right... screw everyone who devoted 100x the effort to their weapons because they did it first when it was harder to obtain..... Worst. suggestion. ever.


Just because something is old doesn't mean it should be obsolete, hence the reason SE is trying to keep relic/mythic in the race.

Welcome to 2011.

No matter the time, effort and gil you sink into a piece of equipment - it doesn't give you a permanent license to be "the best".

[Greatguardian]

Most Relic owners I know got with the times ages ago and got themselves an Empyrean anyways. If people wanted the best gear in the game to come from Rise of the Zilart, we'd still be swooning over Adaberks 8 years later.

Also, buff my Verethragna please ^_^

[Byrth]

I don't wanna get too deep in the DNC discussion because I'm not an expert on the job but giving any DW job ODD proc on both hands would drastically over power the 1H weapons. The combination of DW delay reduction and 30-50% ODD would be outlandish. It's balanced with 2hs as it is. Do the math for yourself and you will see what I mean.

I've done the math for myself, and that's why I'm posting here <.< It's not worth me using Rudra's Storm (1200 average) over Dancing Edge (1600 average) unless 30% ODD procs on both hands.

Dancer is always going to be a support class, because its single best DD-JA is a party-wide buff. They will be outdamaged by virtue of other people getting Haste Samba on top of their own single-target buffs like Hasso. However, I don't think giving 1H DDs ODD on both hands is really that unreasonable. If Bard gets another +1 March, I'll have to find myself an Airy Buckler.

14.5%+11%+15%+25%+10% = 75.5% with G-horn and AF3+2 hands

[Tsukino_Kaji]

A level 90 empyreal is only attainable to a small amount of harcore players just like relic and mythics, so no.You just have to beat abyssea and brew everything.

[Taint]

Most Relic owners I know got with the times ages ago and got themselves an Empyrean anyways. If people wanted the best gear in the game to come from Rise of the Zilart, we'd still be swooning over Adaberks 8 years later.

Also, buff my Verethragna please ^_^


This is very true. I put in 100x the effort for my 90poc then I did my 90masa. Anyone that had an 85 relic before the trial nerfs and now has a 90 relic would find doing any Emp easy, fast and enjoyable in comparison. My Apoc still means a ton more to me even though DRK is a dead job and Apoc is now the 3rd best Scythe.

[Rambus]

I've done the math for myself, and that's why I'm posting here <.< It's not worth me using Rudra's Storm (1200 average) over Dancing Edge (1600 average) unless 30% ODD procs on both hands.

Dancer is always going to be a support class, because its single best DD-JA is a party-wide buff. They will be outdamaged by virtue of other people getting Haste Samba on top of their own single-target buffs like Hasso. However, I don't think giving 1H DDs ODD on both hands is really that unreasonable. If Bard gets another +1 March, I'll have to find myself an Airy Buckler.

14.5%+11%+15%+25%+10% = 75.5% with G-horn and AF3+2 hands

you sure this is not a gear issue on ws saying DE is your best ws?
Evisceration > Rudra's storm > darkness > (and if you manage it somehow) Radra's storm = darkness
you try this?

making ODD proc on DW hits would make THF way overpowered using this ws.

I am fairly sure people can get enough DEX to show evisceration's true power even outside abyssea

[Greatguardian]

I highly doubt Byrthnoth has any sort of gear limitations.

[TearValerin]

As it is now, every Empyrean is essentially the same weapon.

Build TP to 100, 200, 300, get an identical aftermath. There aren't anything that focuses on job abilities or traits, like mythics, and there's no great special effect, like on relics (Increases critical hits on Ragnarok, Enhances counter on Spharai, Amano's ability to weaken attacks, etc.)

That being said, I think it would add uniqueness to Empyrean weapons giving each of them its own specific special quality to separate them from one another. DMG wise, they're in the middle of relics and mythics and on each end of that, you have enhancing qualities to either job abilities or the weapon itself.

Empyrean weapons should also have this.


Not quite sure what game you are playing, but plain and simple, empyrean weapons are the strongest weapons avaliable currently. They do not need an adjustment, nor do they need a fancy bonus. They out damage relic weapon skills by nearly double, and make their weaponskills look like a joke. They do not need any further improvement.

[Vinceroth]

i haven't read everything in this thread to know if someone has posted this, but why complain about empy weapons when there will be 1 more lvl cap increase and SE will increase the stats on said weapons to 99? silly for someone to actually complain about that when they haven't even been increased to full potential yet

[Cream_Soda]

It's not so much as a complaint as a suggestion of what can be done when it is upgraded next.

[Byrth]

you sure this is not a gear issue on ws saying DE is your best ws?
Evisceration > Rudra's storm > darkness > (and if you manage it somehow) Radra's storm = darkness
you try this?

making ODD proc on DW hits would make THF way overpowered using this ws.

I am fairly sure people can get enough DEX to show evisceration's true power even outside abyssea

If you work out the math, against a 346 DEF / 77 VIT / 77 AGI enemy (approximately a Dynamis monster, as far as I can tell), the maximum average damages with ideal gear outside Abyssea is:
Dancing Edge - 1709 damage
Rudra's Storm - 1301 damage
Pyrrhic Kleos - 1414 damage
Evisceration - 1523 damage

So I remembered 100 damage off for each of them, but the basic story is the same. I'd need to do 1333 damage with Twashtar between WSs to make up the damage lost between Dancing Edge and Pyrrhic Kleos. In a perfect world I could alternate WSs and go either Rudra's -> Dancing Edge -> Rudra's or Rudra's -> DEx2 -> Rudra's, the latter of which would definitely make Aftermath worth it for me but requires a bard.

I don't know, bottom line is that I don't see a compelling reason to make Aftermath apply only to the main hand (apart from keeping 2H DDs on top at the expense of 1H DDs).

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Dancing Edge - 1709 damageOnly? Where's the other 800'ish?

[Kirschy]

Maybe a bit off-topic, but Byrth, have you noticed if ODD can proc more than once per attack round? Annoying as it is that 1H and H2H can only proc on one hit, I find it more annoying that ODD can only proc during the first hit of the attack round (first hit of the off-hand round for H2H*), otherwise it doesn't proc at all. I haven't done complete thorough testing on it, but it seems to work this way.

[Byrth]

Only? Where's the other 800'ish?

Average outside Abyssea assuming no Minuets or Chaos Roll, not maximum. DNC with Red Curry Buns, so not SA-WS either.


Maybe a bit off-topic, but Byrth, have you noticed if ODD can proc more than once per attack round? Annoying as it is that 1H and H2H can only proc on one hit, I find it more annoying that ODD can only proc during the first hit of the attack round (first hit of the off-hand round for H2H*), otherwise it doesn't proc at all. I haven't done complete thorough testing on it, but it seems to work this way.

I use my DNC AF3+2 set with Haste Samba all the time, so it's hard to say absolutely for sure but I think can get an ODD proc on any Twashtar-related swings. So if I TA on the Twashtar swing I can proc on those three hits (independent probability for each). I'm fairly sure I once got 2 1k damage hits from a DA (Set proc and ODD at the same time) against Fear Deargs. I doubt I'll be able to find it in my logs though.

[Rambus]

If you work out the math, against a 346 DEF / 77 VIT / 77 AGI enemy (approximately a Dynamis monster, as far as I can tell), the maximum average damages with ideal gear outside Abyssea is:
Dancing Edge - 1709 damage
Rudra's Storm - 1301 damage
Pyrrhic Kleos - 1414 damage
Evisceration - 1523 damage

So I remembered 100 damage off for each of them, but the basic story is the same. I'd need to do 1333 damage with Twashtar between WSs to make up the damage lost between Dancing Edge and Pyrrhic Kleos. In a perfect world I could alternate WSs and go either Rudra's -> Dancing Edge -> Rudra's or Rudra's -> DEx2 -> Rudra's, the latter of which would definitely make Aftermath worth it for me but requires a bard.

I don't know, bottom line is that I don't see a compelling reason to make Aftermath apply only to the main hand (apart from keeping 2H DDs on top at the expense of 1H DDs).

Rudra's Storm > Evisceration> darkness is more damage then spaming DE by your numbers.

and DNC was not ment to be a pure DD ( even though it can be amzaing on this focus) it can heal too.

But I am not sure how you can consider that number on a crit ws that has DEX mod too seems strange.

the thing is if you make that ODD trigger on offhand on DW it can for THF and that be way to much damage.

the ODD on double attack is OP though in the aspect of mythics and relics.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Average outside Abyssea assuming no Minuets or Chaos Roll, not maximum. DNC with Red Curry Buns, so not SA-WS either.Oh DNC, that explains it. lol

[TearValerin]

The problem with Rudra's Storm iss it's lack of a chance to critical, relying on a forced crit every 2 minutes. It's not like it matters when DNC has access to so many other chains for self-darkness, that it doesn't really matter. Twastar + AF3+2 set bonus + AM is pretty scary for a job that isnt a primary damage dealer that can near cap its delay reduction. Stinky ws doesn't equate to needing buffs on a weapon though :|.

The skills that need help the most are ones like Cammlanns Torment (lolwheelingthrust) that make you wonder why bother when the mythic is just that much better.

[Yugl]

"I'm sick of hearing people make a general claim about the relic-holder population regarding gil buying and I'll prove my point by giving my personal story on how I worked X amount of years farming fire crystals to afford one. Of course, my personal story triumphs over a generalization because it and it alone describes how all relics were obtained."

I could see what people doing the above meant if they were talking about majority of the population in terms of weight. However, I think there's more than 1.9999999 relic holders.

[Dew]

Some people just don't get it, it doesn't matter if it took you 2-4yrs to finish a Mythic or Relic. Good for you, feel accomplished. Yes, I'm still working on my Relic that I have slowly been working on for 6yrs. Do I care that it's taking me so long to finish a weapon that won't be uber and the best forever? Nope. What matters it that I am accomplishing that and that is my goal. Just because it takes you that long doesn't mean that it should take everyone that long to get a top of the line weapon.

People saying that means that if it took me say 4yrs to get a certain AF2 piece that it should be powered up more and be the best? No, just because it takes so long to get something doesn't mean it should be the best forever.

Be glad that SE is putting in trials for all the Relics and Mythics. They could of simply left them Lv.75. The fact that are slowly upgrading them means they are improving them. They don't have to upgrade them how you want. You don't like it well I don't know what to tell you. Don't forget we haven't even reached Lv.99 yet. By time we get to 99 who knows what kind of upgrades we will see on the weapons. Patience is key in everything.

[Gaspee]

Some people just don't get it, it doesn't matter if it took you 2-4yrs to finish a Mythic or Relic. Good for you, feel accomplished. Yes, I'm still working on my Relic that I have slowly been working on for 6yrs. Do I care that it's taking me so long to finish a weapon that won't be uber and the best forever? Nope. What matters it that I am accomplishing that and that is my goal. Just because it takes you that long doesn't mean that it should take everyone that long to get a top of the line weapon.

People saying that means that if it took me say 4yrs to get a certain AF2 piece that it should be powered up more and be the best? No, just because it takes so long to get something doesn't mean it should be the best forever.

Be glad that SE is putting in trials for all the Relics and Mythics. They could of simply left them Lv.75. The fact that are slowly upgrading them means they are improving them. They don't have to upgrade them how you want. You don't like it well I don't know what to tell you. Don't forget we haven't even reached Lv.99 yet. By time we get to 99 who knows what kind of upgrades we will see on the weapons. Patience is key in everything.

Hi Dew! Well said.

[Rambus]

Some people just don't get it, it doesn't matter if it took you 2-4yrs to finish a Mythic or Relic. Good for you, feel accomplished. Yes, I'm still working on my Relic that I have slowly been working on for 6yrs. Do I care that it's taking me so long to finish a weapon that won't be uber and the best forever? Nope. What matters it that I am accomplishing that and that is my goal. Just because it takes you that long doesn't mean that it should take everyone that long to get a top of the line weapon.

People saying that means that if it took me say 4yrs to get a certain AF2 piece that it should be powered up more and be the best? No, just because it takes so long to get something doesn't mean it should be the best forever.

Be glad that SE is putting in trials for all the Relics and Mythics. They could of simply left them Lv.75. The fact that are slowly upgrading them means they are improving them. They don't have to upgrade them how you want. You don't like it well I don't know what to tell you. Don't forget we haven't even reached Lv.99 yet. By time we get to 99 who knows what kind of upgrades we will see on the weapons. Patience is key in everything.

I would rather have them not do trails if they where going to be useless, could of saved 120 mil

[Byrth]

Rudra's Storm > Evisceration> darkness is more damage then spaming DE by your numbers.

and DNC was not ment to be a pure DD ( even though it can be amzaing on this focus) it can heal too.

But I am not sure how you can consider that number on a crit ws that has DEX mod too seems strange.

the thing is if you make that ODD trigger on offhand on DW it can for THF and that be way to much damage.

the ODD on double attack is OP though in the aspect of mythics and relics.

Unless you're getting double Marches and the party already has a Dancer, DNC will outdamage Thief. Thief attacks a fraction more often per round (~2% but depends on buffs and where you are), but DNC can cap Delay reduction with only one March and Haste while Thief needs to sub ninja, get 2 Marches, Haste, and get Haste Samba from a Dancer. Again, by accident or design, Dancer is a better DD than Thief. The real reason to bring Thief over Dancer is TH.

Rudra's Storm -> Evisceration -> Darkness would do more damage, but you spend time using JAs and monsters don't have unlimited HP. Minimum JA usage is Step -> Step -> Rudra's -> Reverse Flourish -> Evisceration. Assuming absolutely optimal efficiency, this is 3 extra seconds of delay, and realistically it'll be closer to 5 seconds most of the time (Step won't line up perfectly with Rudra's, using 3 JAs in a row won't be entirely efficient). Factor in that TPing to 100TP does damage (as opposed to steps) and you might as well have not used Steps and just spammed Dancing Edge instead. Until SE reduces JA delay or dramatically increases monster defense, Steps will only really be worth using on NMs.

Rudra's (1301) + Evisceration (1523) + Skillchain (1523*1.3) = 4804 damage, near one-shotting most monsters. Dancer going off and soloing monsters obviously removes their primary benefit in group situations (Haste Samba).
Rudra's (1301) + Evisceration (1523) = 2824 damage if someone interrupts you, or somewhere between this and the other if your skillchain is resisted
Dancing Edge (1709)*2 = 3418, which can be spread out over monsters, can't be interrupted, and can't be resisted.

In the first case, you need ~105 TP to execute it. In the second case, you need ~170 TP to execute it (but swing 5 seconds more and do that much more TP phase damage). At high Haste and in party situations, the second option is preferable for multiple reasons. If your group gets large enough (realistically this depends on the other DDs), using Box Step starts being worth it because personal damage is trumped by alliance damage.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Some people just don't get it, it doesn't matter if it took you 2-4yrs to finish a Mythic or Relic. Good for you, feel accomplished. Yes, I'm still working on my Relic that I have slowly been working on for 6yrs. Do I care that it's taking me so long to finish a weapon that won't be uber and the best forever? Nope. What matters it that I am accomplishing that and that is my goal. Just because it takes you that long doesn't mean that it should take everyone that long to get a top of the line weapon.

People saying that means that if it took me say 4yrs to get a certain AF2 piece that it should be powered up more and be the best? No, just because it takes so long to get something doesn't mean it should be the best forever.

Be glad that SE is putting in trials for all the Relics and Mythics. They could of simply left them Lv.75. The fact that are slowly upgrading them means they are improving them. They don't have to upgrade them how you want. You don't like it well I don't know what to tell you. Don't forget we haven't even reached Lv.99 yet. By time we get to 99 who knows what kind of upgrades we will see on the weapons. Patience is key in everything.
I would rather have them not do trails if they where going to be useless, could of saved 120 milA valient effort Dew but his ears are def to opinions in conflict of his own. He's lost his old trophy to new toys and is scrambling to keep up to the sport car with his station wagon.

[Rambus]

Unless you're getting double Marches and the party already has a Dancer, DNC will outdamage Thief. Thief attacks a fraction more often per round (~2% but depends on buffs and where you are), but DNC can cap Delay reduction with only one March and Haste while Thief needs to sub ninja, get 2 Marches, Haste, and get Haste Samba from a Dancer. Again, by accident or design, Dancer is a better DD than Thief. The real reason to bring Thief over Dancer is TH.

Rudra's Storm -> Evisceration -> Darkness would do more damage, but you spend time using JAs and monsters don't have unlimited HP. Minimum JA usage is Step -> Step -> Rudra's -> Reverse Flourish -> Evisceration. Assuming absolutely optimal efficiency, this is 3 extra seconds of delay, and realistically it'll be closer to 5 seconds most of the time (Step won't line up perfectly with Rudra's, using 3 JAs in a row won't be entirely efficient). Factor in that TPing to 100TP does damage (as opposed to steps) and you might as well have not used Steps and just spammed Dancing Edge instead. Until SE reduces JA delay or dramatically increases monster defense, Steps will only really be worth using on NMs.

Rudra's (1301) + Evisceration (1523) + Skillchain (1523*1.3) = 4804 damage, near one-shotting most monsters. Dancer going off and soloing monsters obviously removes their primary benefit in group situations (Haste Samba).
Rudra's (1301) + Evisceration (1523) = 2824 damage if someone interrupts you, or somewhere between this and the other if your skillchain is resisted
Dancing Edge (1709)*2 = 3418, which can be spread out over monsters, can't be interrupted, and can't be resisted.

In the first case, you need ~105 TP to execute it. In the second case, you need ~170 TP to execute it (but swing 5 seconds more and do that much more TP phase damage). At high Haste and in party situations, the second option is preferable for multiple reasons. If your group gets large enough (realistically this depends on the other DDs), using Box Step starts being worth it because personal damage is trumped by alliance damage.

SE was blind about how to handle DW trait. the thing is with ODD on thf is the tripple attack rate and if you're talking inside or outside abyssea.

ODD on tripple/ double attack I alreay have an issue with and I guess if some emp ws are going to be crt while others are worthless like the drg one that was pointed out, yeah the WS need more balance.

stuff like this makes me think SE really does thows random things on and hope it works, I am sure there is little testing.

Kinda shocked that evis does not outdo DE over time but maybe thats dnc idonno.

[Byrth]

It may be DNC's particular selection of gear (no Hecatomb), but Evisceration actually gains less than Dancing Edge from Sneak/Trick Attack so I don't see an incredibly compelling reason Evisceration would end up being a better WS for THF (outside Abyssea) unless they're really attack deficient against what they're fighting (like they were at 75 pre-pizza). Also, the number of attacks per round between Dancer and Thief isn't that different, so it doesn't really matter that Thief has Triple Attack.

Outside Abyssea:
THF: 16% Triple Attack, 13% Double Attack (AF3+2 head, Brutal, Epona's, Atheling, Twilight) = 1.43 Attacks per Twashtar swing
DNC: 3% Triple Attack, 33% Double Attack (The same minus the head, plus Saber Dance for 20% DA) = 1.38 Attacks per Twashtar swing

3.7% difference between the two, so not that big of a deal compared to the 29% increase in DPS from DNC's extra Dual Wield. So if SE was worried about ODD procs stacking up, they'd want to worry about Dancer more than Thief.

The reason Rudra's Storm sucks unstacked is definitely because SE didn't want THFs pulling off regular 4k WSs, but it wouldn't have killed them to give it a pDIF boost and that wouldn't have affected the SA/TA Rudra's *that* much.

[Rambus]

adding huge amounts to DEX not only boosted the effect of sneak attack but higher increase of CRT in evis.

maybe it was a 75 thing , now you have more double and tripple attack gear.

ether way to make that ws useful is not the ODD but change the WS. look at relics that effect can only happen first hit per round. Making ODD on DW would just be too much DoT , though ill be funny THF finally getting respect for DD.

remember thf has an offhand for tripple attack damage.


The reason Rudra's Storm sucks unstacked is definitely because SE didn't want THFs pulling off regular 4k WSs, but it wouldn't have killed them to give it a pDIF boost and that wouldn't have affected the SA/TA Rudra's *that* much.
SE overlooks a lot of things I think

[Byrth]

Oh yeah, I'm already assuming capped (24%) crit rate on Evisceration (well, that's what it came out to be because of all the DEX.) THF gets a little bit of a boost there thanks to their AF3+2 pants. Also, I said "Per twashtar swing" but really it was just "per any weapon swing." Dancer gets the same number of swings with their offhand too.

[Rambus]

Hmm not much I can say, would you be ok with a pdif boost to that ws but get rid of all ODD on double attack? (1 H and 2H)

have it trigger on first hit on each round only like relic hidden effect?

[Byrth]

I'm not really in to compromising. I'd like the WS to get a pDIF boost, and I'd like to have ODD proc on both hands. It seems unlikely that they'll change anything at all as a result of this thread, so compromising doesn't have a point.

Rudra's Storm has comparable mods and pDIF to Camlann's Torment, but it's a dagger so it starts with ~80 less base damage. Blade: Hi has higher fTP, can crit, and Kannagi starts with higher base damage. The only reason Rudra's is such a weak WS is that SE assumes THFs will be SA/TAing it 100% of the time so the 3.0 fTP they did give it is assumed to be 100% crit rate.

[Rambus]

If SE is going to make many job use weapon x it should be good for them -.-

I hope one day SE would do drastic changes to all 3 to rebalance them and it does not hurt to try to give suggestions to do that.

I am not an expert on melee damage like i am with mage so i am using my limited knowledge while reflecting on yours.

how do you feel about dnc mythic in its current state?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

It still has nothing to do with a game balance issue.

[Byrth]

If SE is going to make many job use weapon x it should be good for them -.-

I hope one day SE would do drastic changes to all 3 to rebalance them and it does not hurt to try to give suggestions to do that.

I am not an expert on melee damage like i am with mage so i am using my limited knowledge while reflecting on yours.

how do you feel about dnc mythic in its current state?

Well, I don't know what the DNC Mythic does because all the Mythic owners I know either quit or stopped responding. Pyrrhic Kleos is really a pretty competitive option as a WS outside Abyssea, but the same problem exists. DD Mythics are good in two situations:
Case 1) The job trait/ability enhancements on the mythics make them worth using - As far as I can tell, Steps with AF2 feet and AF1 hands are no less accurate than normal melee swings, so Step Acc on a weapon (or through merits) is a royal waste of time. The level 85 Mythic was assumed to give 5 Finishing moves per Step, so the level 90 Mythic . . . still gives 5 Finishing moves per step? Definitely awesome, but not worth the DPS sacrifice of a mythic from a DD perspective really.
Case 2) The OAT from AM3 makes the mythic worth using. - This is true for Ryunohige, Liberator, etc. Unfortunately, OAT procs the same way ODD procs (mythic hand only). Because Dancer has plenty of Double Attack already, OAT only provides .26 Attacks per attack round outside Abyssea (less inside). So you spend 300 TP every 3 minutes to attack 9% more often. Baaarely worth it, if it is at all from a DD perspective even at capped delay reduction.

I think I would like this dagger for healing though, so I've been working on the pre-reqs (but I will not be attempting Alex unless they add more sources.) TP gain is hardly an issue, and won't be until we get a Waltz recast rework, so I could probably go Terpsi/Phurba when healing on DNC/SAM. TP tends to pile up when healing, so 300TP every 3 minutes isn't that bad of a deal if I choose to use it that way. I'd have to play around with it and see what seems to work best. At the moment I'm mostly doing it because it's one of the last rare dancer things left to get.

[Rambus]

Well, I don't know what the DNC Mythic does because all the Mythic owners I know either quit or stopped responding. Pyrrhic Kleos is really a pretty competitive option as a WS outside Abyssea, but the same problem exists. DD Mythics are good in two situations:
Case 1) The job trait/ability enhancements on the mythics make them worth using - As far as I can tell, Steps with AF2 feet and AF1 hands are no less accurate than normal melee swings, so Step Acc on a weapon (or through merits) is a royal waste of time. The level 85 Mythic was assumed to give 5 Finishing moves per Step, so the level 90 Mythic . . . still gives 5 Finishing moves per step? Definitely awesome, but not worth the DPS sacrifice of a mythic from a DD perspective really.
Case 2) The OAT from AM3 makes the mythic worth using. - This is true for Ryunohige, Liberator, etc. Unfortunately, OAT procs the same way ODD procs (mythic hand only). Because Dancer has plenty of Double Attack already, OAT only provides .26 Attacks per attack round outside Abyssea (less inside). So you spend 300 TP every 3 minutes to attack 9% more often. Baaarely worth it, if it is at all from a DD perspective even at capped delay reduction.

I think I would like this dagger for healing though, so I've been working on the pre-reqs (but I will not be attempting Alex unless they add more sources.) TP gain is hardly an issue, and won't be until we get a Waltz recast rework, so I could probably go Terpsi/Phurba when healing on DNC/SAM. TP tends to pile up when healing, so 300TP every 3 minutes isn't that bad of a deal if I choose to use it that way. I'd have to play around with it and see what seems to work best. At the moment I'm mostly doing it because it's one of the last rare dancer things left to get.

Was wondering what that ment, one step for 5 Finishing moves? woudln't that allow a lot of solo scing?

[Byrth]

Was wondering what that ment, one step for 5 Finishing moves? woudln't that allow a lot of solo scing?

It allows the same number of self-skillchains, because you're limited by Reverse Flourish recast. The main thing it does is potentially allows for the use of other Flourishes without interrupting your Reverse Flourish rotation. Downside, of course, is that DD flourishes are second rate. Striking is good with the AF3+2 body, but only if your WS has high first-hit fTP... which is pretty much only Rudra's for Dancer.

If I am assuming the "Enhances Steps" correctly, the main benefit of the Mythic is that you use Steps half as often and can still maintain your Reverse Flourish rotation (less JA delay and TP spent, so self-skillchains come at less of a cost). If you're using Steps to Debuff, you'd need to use Steps just as often.

[Rambus]

It allows the same number of self-skillchains, because you're limited by Reverse Flourish recast. The main thing it does is potentially allows for the use of other Flourishes without interrupting your Reverse Flourish rotation. Downside, of course, is that DD flourishes are second rate. Striking is good with the AF3+2 body, but only if your WS has high first-hit fTP... which is pretty much only Rudra's for Dancer.

If I am assuming the "Enhances Steps" correctly, the main benefit of the Mythic is that you use Steps half as often and can still maintain your Reverse Flourish rotation (less JA delay and TP spent, so self-skillchains come at less of a cost). If you're using Steps to Debuff, you'd need to use Steps just as often.

Oh yeah I forgot about that, even so that recast was the same as 2 steps no? I remember that i kept using it on 4 finishing moves so you get some extra tp with that enchainment.

With all that haste though where you currently able to do step >step > > tp a bit? mabye have tp a bit after that second step? ws> RF>ws?

since its already 90 and its giving 5 FM, how would you feel about mythic able braking that cap? and a move that works like Sekkanoki for FM? would it be too ground braking just to lower the recast on flourish II?

Just trying to think of some ideas to you to feedback on to allow mythics esp one for dnc to be mroe useful

[Alderin]

You just have to beat abyssea and brew everything.

Not true.

Briareas route for example.

Briareas = Nin or Mnk & a Whm (Can even be solo'd with a skilled /DNC).
Sobek = Nin or Mnk & a Whm
Apademak = Nin or Mnk, Whm, Brd or Blm or Drk for stuns.

No brews required.

[Francisco]

Not that they're required to win, but I'd take a THF if possible. Treasure Hunter helps immensely on empyrean NMs.

[Byrth]

Anything more than 5 Finishing moves is almost wasted until they update our Flourish options.

Useful Flourishes (generally):
1) Violent Flourish - 1 FM, Stun, subject to normal melee Acc, returns a hit worth of TP. About as magically accurate as Head Butt.
2) Striking Flourish - 2 FM, forces a DA and about a 50-60% crit rate with AF3+2 body regardless of WS. Only worth using with Rudra's Storm
3) Reverse Flourish - 1-5 FMs, gives back 26/40/57/77/100 TP with 1/2/3/4/5 FMs respectively with AF3+2 hands and 5/5 Reverse Flourish merits. 77 TP is enough to self-skillchain with WS TP return + 1 attack round.

So we can stun once between Reverse Flourishes as long as it gives 5 FMs per Step. Striking Flourish isn't useful without Rudra's, so it isn't an issue if you're using the Mythic anyway.

Sekka for Steps isn't that useful, because there are scant few times when you want to spend less than the maximum amount of Steps. Increasing the number of Finishing Moves to 10 (and leaving Reverse Flourish capped at 5) would nicely compliment the Mythic though, and would make sure additional Finishing Moves weren't wasted as often.

JA delay reduction is a fix that the job needs (especially for Waltzes) but I'd rather not restrict that to the Mythic. Though it wouldn't benefit Dancer directly (because we already cap delay reduction in a lot of situations), Haste Samba +1~5 would have been much more useful than Step Accuracy.

[Alderin]

Byrth, youre posts are actually interesting, compared to a lot of the others on this forum :/

[Rambus]

Anything more than 5 Finishing moves is almost wasted until they update our Flourish options.

Useful Flourishes (generally):
1) Violent Flourish - 1 FM, Stun, subject to normal melee Acc, returns a hit worth of TP. About as magically accurate as Head Butt.
2) Striking Flourish - 2 FM, forces a DA and about a 50-60% crit rate with AF3+2 body regardless of WS. Only worth using with Rudra's Storm
3) Reverse Flourish - 1-5 FMs, gives back 26/40/57/77/100 TP with 1/2/3/4/5 FMs respectively with AF3+2 hands and 5/5 Reverse Flourish merits. 77 TP is enough to self-skillchain with WS TP return + 1 attack round.

So we can stun once between Reverse Flourishes as long as it gives 5 FMs per Step. Striking Flourish isn't useful without Rudra's, so it isn't an issue if you're using the Mythic anyway.

Sekka for Steps isn't that useful, because there are scant few times when you want to spend less than the maximum amount of Steps. Increasing the number of Finishing Moves to 10 (and leaving Reverse Flourish capped at 5) would nicely compliment the Mythic though, and would make sure additional Finishing Moves weren't wasted as often.

JA delay reduction is a fix that the job needs (especially for Waltzes) but I'd rather not restrict that to the Mythic. Though it wouldn't benefit Dancer directly (because we already cap delay reduction in a lot of situations), Haste Samba +1~5 would have been much more useful than Step Accuracy.

I figured anything over 5 was useless, that is why I asked about the move that works like Sekkanoki for FM.

So the new gear nade merits allowed you to SC on 4 FM, I was wondering about that, so the mythic does not have a lot of impact past giving you more Flourish moves between Reverse Flourish. I hope SE will adress that.

I have posted in that one DNC thread I do not make sence of making the Na like move and cures on one timer, I think it would be easiest to split them.

maybe they can lower flourish II to make mythic more useful. from the sound of things that would be the easiest way to "buff it" or make that FM limiter or just have RF take a max of 5.

Limiting RF to take 5 would need a lower recast on flourish II.


Byrth, youre posts are actually interesting, compared to a lot of the others on this forum :/
I agree, I rather bounce back real information to get better ideas how to fix things for SE, not a pointless debate if they should be fixed.

[Yogi]

nothing needs to be done at present but I think the final 99 upgrade should add something unique. If they give everything now what will be then useful for further upgrades, apart from a damage boost.

[Alderin]

Sekka for Steps isn't that useful, because there are scant few times when you want to spend less than the maximum amount of Steps. Increasing the number of Finishing Moves to 10 (and leaving Reverse Flourish capped at 5) would nicely compliment the Mythic though, and would make sure additional Finishing Moves weren't wasted as often.


That would be a great idea - even ignoring weapon augs. Finishing moves could be boosted as a DNC main, or even a group 3 merit.

But this post is about weapons so I will hold that one back.

[Byrth]

Thanks for the support guys.

My favorite Dancer Waltz-fix idea is just an odd/even split. You could try and alternate Waltz V and IV the way that WHMs alternate Cure V and VI, and toss Curing Waltz III when V isn't up. Those are changes that really need to be applied to the whole job though.

Terpsichore-specific ideas so far is doubling the finishing move cap / limiting Reverse Flourish to 5 moves and just adding 1-5% Haste Samba to it instead of Step Acc that we don't need.

[Rambus]

Thanks for the support guys.

My favorite Dancer Waltz-fix idea is just an odd/even split. You could try and alternate Waltz V and IV the way that WHMs alternate Cure V and VI, and toss Curing Waltz III when V isn't up. Those are changes that really need to be applied to the whole job though.

Terpsichore-specific ideas so far is doubling the finishing move cap / limiting Reverse Flourish to 5 moves and just adding 1-5% Haste Samba to it instead of Step Acc that we don't need.

you mean making hasta samba better and get rid of the step acc, this is talking about mythic dagger right?

that better haste samba would be better for other melees though then yourself as DW/ Martial Arts jobs are getting closer and easier hitting the overall cap on delay.

[Byrth]

Yeah, it would solidify Terpsichore as the best Healing/support mainhand for Dancer.

Steps do have some innate Acc penalty (I think?) but it seems to be countered by AF1 hands and AF2 feet, along with stuff like Choreia Earring and numerous pieces of Accuracy gear. There was never really a need for it on the Mythic, and there certainly isn't now. I'd gladly trade it for 1-5% Haste Samba (Level I to V through upgrades).

In an ideal case (G-horn, AF3+2 hands, 600 skill) Double Marches and Haste would let 2H DDs hit the delay cap with 15% Haste Samba and no Hasso. Well, it would let all DDs hit the delay cap, but most don't actually need the last 5% Haste thanks to Dual Wield and Martial Arts.

[Rambus]

Yeah, it would solidify Terpsichore as the best Healing/support mainhand for Dancer.

Steps do have some innate Acc penalty (I think?) but it seems to be countered by AF1 hands and AF2 feet, along with stuff like Choreia Earring and numerous pieces of Accuracy gear. There was never really a need for it on the Mythic, and there certainly isn't now. I'd gladly trade it for 1-5% Haste Samba (Level I to V through upgrades).

oh gee i thoguht i was the only one that thought that, so I made a step macro with o hat and such -.-

not sure how much a 90 G horn is needed over the old +2/+3? common one but I never did the math on it.


I am a bit out of date when it cames to level 90 math and such things.

Idealy you would want march 2/ haste spell and attack song i think

[Byrth]

That would give better damage, if you kept Hasso and used a Minuet , but Seigan wouldn't be *that* much of a damage loss anymore. Hasso would effectively give you 80 Attack (Minuet V) instead of 10% Haste.

With 600 skill, Victory March is 10.5% Haste and Advancing March is 7% Haste. Each March+1 is +1% Haste, going to a total of 14.5%/11% with G-horn (90) for +3 and AF3+2 hands for +1.

[Rambus]

what is needed for cap delay on 2H?

ill give me an idea when talking about some mythics.

[Cream_Soda]

what is needed for cap delay on 2H?

ill give me an idea when talking about some mythics.
80% delay reduction.

[Urteil]

To attack a person to attack or ague for the sake for arguing is violate the ToS.

Seriously?

[Rambus]

80% delay reduction.


how hard is 600 total skill to get to without ghorn?

what much much difference does the g-horn skill come in play.

is there a common +3 yet for march? hard to keep track of all that.

[Byrth]

600 is very easy to get. I think Bard has it naked with capped skills. There is no common +3 yet for Bard, but Terpsichores are much less common than G-horns anyway if we're inventing fantastic situations.

[Rambus]

600 is very easy to get. I think Bard has it naked with capped skills. There is no common +3 yet for Bard, but Terpsichores are much less common than G-horns anyway if we're inventing fantastic situations.


that is because mythics in general never gave the appeal "get me" the asking improvements on it show this.

If we make mythics more reasonable to get and improvements are made to them, hopfully that case can change.

[Byrth]

Blah, I had a response written out but accidentally hit backspace and erased it. Long story short, they'd have to make a ton of changes for Mythics to be reasonable again without changing to requirements. I don't think they will, because it would be a tremendous amount of work. The easiest way to make mythics reasonable would be to simply reduce the requirements substantially, which I also think they'll avoid doing. I'm going to keep trying to get Terpsi slowly, but only because I have nothing better to do in game.

[Rambus]

Blah, I had a response written out but accidentally hit backspace and erased it. Long story short, they'd have to make a ton of changes for Mythics to be reasonable again without changing to requirements. I don't think they will, because it would be a tremendous amount of work. The easiest way to make mythics reasonable would be to simply reduce the requirements substantially, which I also think they'll avoid doing. I'm going to keep trying to get Terpsi slowly, but only because I have nothing better to do in game.

mage mythics... NIN.. so on are still pretty useless if you ask me
DNC could be better, some of the ws on them needs to be better

COR gun, crossbow...

is what comes to mind right now

[Byrth]

The 15% WS-specific damage boost on level 90 Empyreans is helping make their WSs better, but it depends if it's a +15% increase in first-hit fTP or a 15% damage boost overall. If it's a +15% overall damage boost, Pyrrhic Kleos would rival Dancing Edge as Dancer's best outside-Abyssea WS.

[Rambus]

we will see i guess but a lot of mythics sill did not upgrade them selfs from useless

[Helel]

Reduce alex from 30k to 10k would be reasonable. However, if I had a mythic personally, I would be pissed at SE for reducing the requirements. I think the better thing to do would be to improve the mythic itself and therefore get more people interested in doing salvage again. I have annihilator and I would be pissed if they reduced requirements to get it, which they might actually be doing with the dynamis update, but we'll see. Obviously by increasing relic ws damage by 25% and mythic ws only by 15%, they still consider relics to be the ultimate weapon in the game. Once the 95 and 99 versions are released, they will easily beat empyreans. Regardless, if mythics are supposed to be "lesser" relics then they shouldn't be harder to get. Either get rid of the salvage "once-per-day" requirement or improve them.

[Byrth]

For serious players, gil is no longer a motivator. Gil is used for:
1) Food and consumables
2) A few pieces of gear that are still sellable
3) Currency for Relics/Mythics

Most serious players can pay for the first, slowly builds towards the second, and don't seriously entertain thoughts about the third. Because of that, there's no reason for people to farm Salvage for Alexandrite to sell. If Salvage was soloable and you could be guaranteed about 300k per run, some people might do it. It wouldn't take many runs to pay for Dusk Gloves +1 though.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

It wouldn't take many runs to pay for Dusk Gloves though.10k, 7 on AH. >.>
+1 hasn't been on AH since 2009. lol

[Byrth]

Sorry, mistype. Meant Dusk Gloves +1 which are sort of the "thing people don't have yet but still want."

Since the Guild Stalls were released, Dusk Gloves +1 have been Tier 1, meaning they should really only cost about 10 times the price of a Behemoth hide + Tiger Gloves (on average) if you get a friend to craft them. Behemoth Hides are 30k on Lakshmi... Even if you don't have a good leathercrafting friend, buying them for over 5mil these days is ridiculous.

[Kirschy]

There's a few things to point out about Mythics which stand them apart from relic weapons. Most importantly is that a handful of Mythic WS are much stronger than their relic counterparts by nature. This isn't true for every weaponskill of course (Kaiten vs Rana for example.)

More importantly is that AM3 from Mythics (the OAT) can proc during WS. I've done a lot of testing with Liberator, and without any DA gear, I was getting about ~50% rate on 5-hit Insurgencies. Add in the extra DA/TA that is available for most jobs and you have a much higher rate of multiple hits than a relic weapon. (That said, I haven't done a lot of testing to see how the DA/TA stack with the OAT,and if 6-hit insurgency is the cap.)

Last, is that Mythic playstyle for optimal damage is much different than relics by nature. They're much more WS based than TP based. AM3 is active for a full 3minutes which is a LOT of time to spam WS. A 2Her /w a good 5-hit build will be spamming WS much faster than a relic holder.

When you factor these three mechanics together, the lower WS boost of 15% seems fair when compared against relics. I feel overall many Mythics have a large damage potential that is often overlooked and underestimated. When Mythics were first introduced there was an overwhelming cry of disappointment from the community. Based on the mythic stats released by SE, people were mostly going for utility mythics like Burtgang and Yagrush. When relic/mythic trials finally came around, SE was able to fix some of the innate problems with Mythics, but the few who had bothered to even finish a Mythic didn't trudge through the horrible trials. Now with the reduction in trials, people are focused on Empyrean weapons.

[Byrth]

Wow... I didn't realize that. Ryunohige could be the best weapon in the game then. It also makes Pyrrhic Kleos minorly better than Dancing Edge with level 90 Terpsichore, even if AM3 only procs on the first swing. I must have forgotten you saying that in the past, because I'm pretty sure I heard it before.

Just to clarify, is Liberator's AM3 50% or 40%?

[Rambus]

yeah they are looking better then expected now just there is still some left in the dust.. like the mage mythics..

and the sword would be really good if they get rid of hate caps or the cap hate damage on the ws

[Kirschy]

Wow... I didn't realize that. Ryunohige could be the best weapon in the game then. It also makes Pyrrhic Kleos minorly better than Dancing Edge with level 90 Terpsichore, even if AM3 only procs on the first swing. I must have forgotten you saying that in the past, because I'm pretty sure I heard it before.

Just to clarify, is Liberator's AM3 50% or 40%?

It's around 45-50% from my testing. When I get the chance I'm going to run a larger test.... it just sucks to run since you need to attack slow enough to discern when you OAT procs. I'm still only at the Lv85 stage, since ZNM is a huge timesink, and they've eluded to possibly revamping the system. (I don't mind waiting a few months for the next major update if it makes ZNM easier.)

[Byrth]

It's around 45-50% from my testing. When I get the chance I'm going to run a larger test.... it just sucks to run since you need to attack slow enough to discern when you OAT procs. I'm still only at the Lv85 stage, since ZNM is a huge timesink, and they've eluded to possibly revamping the system. (I don't mind waiting a few months for the next major update if it makes ZNM easier.)

Orz ; ; Sounds like Saber Dance testing. I have something like ~1.5 Tygers that I'm just sitting around with if you ever find yourself on Lakshmi.

The last 5-10% pretty well sets Ryunohige as superior to Ukonvasara. It's a shame that DRG isn't a more versatile job.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Think you mean Rhongomiant/Gugnir? Drg can't use Ukon.

[Greatguardian]

Think you mean Rhongomiant/Gugnir? Drg can't use Ukon.

He's talking about the best damage dealing weapon in the entire game, ignoring class restrictions. A DRG with Ryunohige may surpass a WAR with Ukonvasara in terms of raw damage.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Was unsure if he was referring to DRG weapons, thanks for the clarification.

[Cream_Soda]

Orz ; ; Sounds like Saber Dance testing. I have something like ~1.5 Tygers that I'm just sitting around with if you ever find yourself on Lakshmi.

The last 5-10% pretty well sets Ryunohige as superior to Ukonvasara. It's a shame that DRG isn't a more versatile job.
Is that including retaliates or just pure raw damage?

[Byrth]

Is that including retaliates or just pure raw damage?

Doesn't include Retaliation or Wyverns, but Dragoon wins by 5%.

[Kirschy]

Doesn't include Retaliation or Wyverns, but Dragoon wins by 5%.

That probably assumes full time AM3 which isn't realli too plausible even with 300tp restore chests. That said, I do find there's a lot of "mini-zerg" situations in Abyssea where after you hit green on an NM, you just wanna kill it as fast as you can. I think Mythics do well there.

[Byrth]

That probably assumes full time AM3 which isn't realli too plausible even with 300tp restore chests. That said, I do find there's a lot of "mini-zerg" situations in Abyssea where after you hit green on an NM, you just wanna kill it as fast as you can. I think Mythics do well there.

Dragoon has a bit of an advantage over Dark Knight here, as Spirit Jump (2x TP) and Soul Jump (3x TP) let it build 300TP quickly and come back up as fast or faster than AM3 goes down.

3 minute recast also puts it in line with Meditate, so you're looking at Meditate -> 5x hits worth of TP minimum with a 5-hit (assuming no DA/TA/OAT50%s) to get to 300TP. Even if you kill the previous monster with a 300TP Drakesbane and wait 3 minutes without engaging another monster with no Regain, you'll have at least 180 TP just from JAs and your previous WS return. If you DA (or your OAT procs because AM3 is still up) on one of the two jumps, you're looking at 220 or 240 TP.

It is definitely wasted WS potential, but getting AM3 back up shouldn't take more than about 10 seconds if you have Haste buffs on dragoon, as opposed to maybe Absorb TP or just swinging away on Dark Knight.

[Rambus]

I just wanted to say this is the discussions that should be taking place when talking about relics and mythics, not agurments that will never end on the topic if they should get buffed or not because they are old.

Byrth, Kirschy really been a pleasure, i wish you where on my server

[Auredant]

I agree. Empyreans don't need nerfing. It's nice that people can get an amazing weapon with out killing themselves or spending millions and millions of gil. Relics and Mythics need boosts. They deserve to be on par. Most relic WSs sucked in the first place and now SE puts out weapons that are easier to get, only have 1-3 less base damage, have stat boosts instead of superfluous att or acc and come with an aftermath that puts all relic aftermaths to shame. If you argue that as fair you aren't being objective. With the level 90 update on relics and mythics I'm hopeful that SE is working towards a balance but most weapons and WSs have a LONG LONG way to go before they compete. My heart breaks for Kikoku NINs every time I see a 6k Blade: Hi.
why? can't a nin just dual both...since the emp is so easy to get

[Auredant]

I disagree with changing Emp's at all.

In effect currently the power order goes like this:-
Empyrean > Relic > Mythic

Augments / aftermath etc
Empyrean > Relic >=< Mythic (depending on the weapon, some mythics have better augs then their relic counterparts)

Attainability (From easiest to hardest)
Empyrean > Relic > Mythic.

The proper power order based on difficulty to get should essentially be:
Relic > Mythic > Empyrean

Empyreans do not need to be adjusted at all. Relics and Mythics do, drastically. Overpowered or not - I believe some people are forgetting that proud relic owners have essentially spent ~200Mil gil on their weapons. Empyreans have been obtained *practically* overnight.

My vote - buff up relics and mythics for the proud owners out there. Leave us less fortunate people that havnt had the time or patience with the lesser of the 3x ultimate weapons.

Except that Mythics are far more difficult to get than Relic.But yet very few ppl care about that as most have written mythic off as either unattainable or not worth the effort.