Can the Devs allow Dual Wielding Shields?

[kingfury]

Had this in my mind for a while now, but I wanted to ask if the Devs could allow Dual-wielding of Shields? It would be a new fighting style (ex. new battle animations) and a hybrid of Defense and Offense with a medium delay. It would offer new Shield specific weapon skills as well as usher in new types of shields to be held.


Dual Wielding Shields (view Larger (http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/6639/dualwieldshieldsweb.jpg)):
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/6639/dualwieldshieldsweb.jpg

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3316/dualwieldshields2web.jpg

http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/3696/dualshieldsanimation2we.gif

http://imageshack.us/a/img140/7926/battleshieldstatsweb.jpg

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/607/battleshieldstats2web.jpg

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/245/battleshieldstats3web.jpg

Of course the question of "Why" comes to mind, but the simple answer is to add some new battle flavor to the future of FFXI from what we've had for over 8 years now. Development wise, beyond the animation work needed for all races, the current block mechanics for shields can still be utilized when adding the new attack mechanics.

Just wondering.

King
----------------------------
EDIT*
From Post 13 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/27107-Can-the-Devs-allow-Dual-Wielding-Shields?p=359217&viewfull=1#post359217)

Weapon Category
I'm indeed suggesting the implementation of a new weapon type/category vs the current available defensive only shields. These shields would be considered a Main hand weapon if used in conjunction with our traditional shields and would not activate the sub shield as a melee weapon. Only if two of these melee shields are equipped would they both be used to cause damage and thus be classified as "Dual-wielding Shields" as suggested in the Original post. The unique part of this weapon however, would be that it's actually a hybrid in terms of functionality. It would have the ability to be used as an offensive tool as well as defensive tool all by itself, so technically a player would be wielding both at once (melee + blocking + weapon skills, etc). So the programming challenge would come down to merging the properties of the two functions effectively.

Damage/Weapon skills

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8759/dualshieldsanimationwea.gif

The damage would be on par with what a high end Axe would produce, and would indeed have an assortment of push back and enfeebling weapon skills available to the user. I can also see a number of Rush-like weapon skills that would generate spike enmity to grab the monsters attention. The damage would be primarily be blunt, but would also encompass slashing damage if a spiked or bladed-edge shield is being wielded. I really like the bonuses that you've suggested (the +shield skill, VIT based weapon skill mods) and I would include strong +counter and +parrying values to the mix. Which leads to if the melee shield should parry or not.
Since I'm suggesting this concept as a new fighting style, as awkward as it might seem, this fighting style would function like no other using an intricate mix of blocking, parrying, strong slashing/striking and stiff blows. Along with the use of two of these shields at the same time it would be a very unique display of battling.

The Devs Investment
In terms of the Devs investing time and work into a new weapon category, I believe with the new expansion coming up, finding socially unique concepts to fill out all the boarders of the new lands is a very important goal for the future of the entertainment quality produced for the loyal player base of FFXI. The last handful of "expansions" have been reskinned zones for the most part with the exception of the introduction of a few new monster types and bosses, so the new expansion has the potential to be a new rich social experience similar to Aht Urhgan. Aht Urhgan introduced two new job classes that used traditional weapon types as this new expansion will, but imagine the depth that a new weapon category could bring outside of just new job classes.
It's very much apart of the Devs job to create new and varying content for us to enjoy so I think it would hold some potential if done correctly. By "correctly" I mean not just adding it to be adding it, but truly making it something unique and rewarding for players to pick up and master.
Dual-wielding Shield battle strategy (breakdown)

The combatant wielding two of these shields would have them firmly in front of their body (similar to a boxer) ever ready to anticipate what the battle will throw at them. If an attack launched at them, they instinctively either move to block the attack or position themselves to parry/counter the attack to gain the offensive advantage. Staying very fluid all the while, they are patient to wait for the perfect opportunity to unleash their quick and painful assault on their enemies using a barrage of close quarters blows. The advantage of the two melee shields presents it's benefits by allowing an assortment of chained combo strikes to the combatant during an offensive maneuver. Rarely would an offensive assault end with one solo strike, but rather at the very least a combination of a strike and bash, two strikes, or even two bash attacks. Even a third or fourth strike would be common given the opportunity. Thus making this style a very fast paced dance of both attack and tactical stringing of melee type blows.
On the defensive side, an enemy would be hard pressed to find an opening readily available to exploit. The very attempt to strike at the shield wielding combatant is a sure chance at provoking an opposing shield to the face in retaliation. Constantly protected at either close range or afar, the combatant can rush to in to tank a rampaging enemy or retreat to protect the softer party members with ease. Using an handful of unique rushing attacks, the combatant can barrel fiercely into the enemy to gain it's attention and hold it with it's array of punishing defensive and offensive maneuvers.
On top of all this variety, the shield wielding combatant has a plethora of damaging and enfeebling weapon skills at their disposal. Multi-hit weapon skills would be at the forefront of these punishing skills while a variety of bashing and rushing skills would follow. The range of these skills would offer a steady and abundant selection of tools to the wielder to properly handle keeping the attention of any enemy.
If there was a New Job created for this Weapon, here's some attempts on the Artifact Armor Concept Art:

[Demon6324236]

PLD+Aegis+Ochain+This idea=...something that will never die.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

PLD+Aegis+Ochain+This idea=...something that will never die.

To be fair it does say small to medium, Ochain and Aegis are large are they not?

[Siviard]

Interesting concept!

Oh, and Kingfury, what are your play times? I've been wanting to speak to you in-game about something.

[Kaup]

If this ever makes it's way into the game I'm asking for the ability to ride Fenrir as a pony.

[Demon6324236]

To be fair it does say small to medium, Ochain and Aegis are large are they not?

So long as its just Bucklers & Round shields, but then I cant see it as being very useful because I would think the amount of damage would depend on the DEF, and theirs is kinda low. If anything I would think that PLD would get traits to allow heavier shields because it is the shield master job, perhaps opening up Kite, or Tower classes. I was just saying if it included Aegis/Ochain then it would become just impossible to kill a PLD. But overall I do like this idea.

[Demon6324236]

If this ever makes it's way into the game I'm asking for the ability to ride Fenrir as a pony.

Well in that case BLMs should fly and BSTs should be able to ride their pets as well. :P

[Nawesemo]

Lol pld already complain about not holding hate.... I think they'll see an option to lose the sword (dmg) as a big fat pld s.e trolling.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Lol pld already complain about not holding hate.... I think they'll see an option to lose the sword (dmg) as a big fat pld s.e trolling.

And in turn gain two attacks in one round.

I sort of like this idea, but I'd rather PLD just gain a trait to occasionally attack with shield, like Double attack.

[Lushipur]

in the first FF you could do that, mostly for max def :P

btw king...your drawing of taru always make me laugh :P

[tyrantsyn]

At first I was like "wth is this $h!t"

Than I see the illustration's and I'm like "Oh yeah, that could work"

Best thing about your suggestion's King, you always make them feel more feasible with the art work.

[Yokai]

I strongly suspect that SE will not implement this as a dual-wielded weapon system, or as a dual-shield system wherein both shields are processed by the game system in the same manner as a single shield is now.

However, if SE did decide to allow dual-shield wielding, I would bet they would do so by creating a 'Shield' weapon type (more akin to Swords than existing Shields).

Main-slot Shields would primarily do Blunt damage, and would generally have DEF+ as one of their stats. Their damage would likely be low, probably comparable to Clubs or -both more likely and more depressing - Wands.*

The Weapon Skills that this Shield Weapon category would provide would probably have primary staples including Stun or Knockback effects, possibly with at least one higher-level WS including a Terrorize effect to represent an enhanced stun. Most Weapon Skills would have VIT as either their sole or primary stat modifier. I'd bet there would be at least one WS that derives its damage solely from the Defense stat, similar to BLU's Cannonball.

I would also bet that most HQ shield weapons would include Shield Skill bonuses, and the most common attribute bonus would be VIT+.

Shield Weapons may or may not trigger parries. I'm not sure if they should or not - mechanically, that's the easiest way to adapt existing mechanics to simulate using the primary-hand Shield being used to block attacks. However, thematically it's very strange to think of a person blocking attacks with one shield while parrying attacks with another shield.
This issue could probably be sidestepped if the Defense and/or Shield Skill bonuses of main-hand shields were sufficiently potent.




I know it would be nice to be able to attack with two one-handed Shield weapons, and/or to have twice the chance to block... but I just don't see it as feasible for the dev team to devote the time it would take to rework the existing off-hand-only Shield (and shield skill / blocking) system to work on the mainhand.


Plus, think about how many shields already exist. Would they all be reworked to function as weapons? Only some of them? Or would shields that work as weapons be a wholly separate category of item, requiring the creation of enough new shields to justify their own weapon category?


* EDIT: Shields as a weapon would almost definitely be severely limited in their damage potential so as to maintain the attractiveness of using actual weapons instead of dual-wielding shields. Running around with two defensive tools should definitely enhance your defensive capability, but it should force a question about if the tradeoff of reduced offensive capability is worth the enhanced defense.
...on a related tangent, I am certain that these shield weapons would have Enmity-enhancing statistics of some sort, and probably at least one enmity-enhancing or enmity-generating weapon skill, to make up for the enmity loss of the reduced damage. This would need to be an attractive option for tanks, after all, and a tank that can't hold hate can't tank very well.

EDIT2: ALso, I do think there would be at least a few 'spiked' and 'bladed' shield weapons that would do, respectively, piercing and slashing damage instead of or in addition to blunt damage. But I also think they would be small in number and the exception rather than the standard. Just makes more sense thematically that way. (But I'd be going out of my way to collect them.)


EDIT3: While I doubt an actual implementation would measure up to the idea put forth in the OP's art, I can definitely see a Galka Paladin with two shields in his hands, resolutely standing against the goblin that is trying to get to the oh-so-fragile Tarutaru mages behind him, with a look that says "just try it" as he executes his new (shield) weapon skill Blade Breaker that stuns the goblin and drastically reduces the damage he can deal - which allows the healer a moment to catch some breath and rebuild some MP. Or throw out more buffs.

[kingfury]

I strongly suspect that SE will not implement this as a dual-wielded weapon system, or as a dual-shield system wherein both shields are processed by the game system in the same manner as a single shield is now.

However, if SE did decide to allow dual-shield wielding, I would bet they would do so by creating a 'Shield' weapon type (more akin to Swords than existing Shields).

Main-slot Shields would primarily do Blunt damage, and would generally have DEF+ as one of their stats. Their damage would likely be low, probably comparable to Clubs or -both more likely and more depressing - Wands.*

The Weapon Skills that this Shield Weapon category would provide would probably have primary staples including Stun or Knockback effects, possibly with at least one higher-level WS including a Terrorize effect to represent an enhanced stun. Most Weapon Skills would have VIT as either their sole or primary stat modifier. I'd bet there would be at least one WS that derives its damage solely from the Defense stat, similar to BLU's Cannonball.

I would also bet that most HQ shield weapons would include Shield Skill bonuses, and the most common attribute bonus would be VIT+.

Shield Weapons may or may not trigger parries. I'm not sure if they should or not - mechanically, that's the easiest way to adapt existing mechanics to simulate using the primary-hand Shield being used to block attacks. However, thematically it's very strange to think of a person blocking attacks with one shield while parrying attacks with another shield.
This issue could probably be sidestepped if the Defense and/or Shield Skill bonuses of main-hand shields were sufficiently potent.




I know it would be nice to be able to attack with two one-handed Shield weapons, and/or to have twice the chance to block... but I just don't see it as feasible for the dev team to devote the time it would take to rework the existing off-hand-only Shield (and shield skill / blocking) system to work on the mainhand.


Plus, think about how many shields already exist. Would they all be reworked to function as weapons? Only some of them? Or would shields that work as weapons be a wholly separate category of item, requiring the creation of enough new shields to justify their own weapon category?


* EDIT: Shields as a weapon would almost definitely be severely limited in their damage potential so as to maintain the attractiveness of using actual weapons instead of dual-wielding shields. Running around with two defensive tools should definitely enhance your defensive capability, but it should force a question about if the tradeoff of reduced offensive capability is worth the enhanced defense.
...on a related tangent, I am certain that these shield weapons would have Enmity-enhancing statistics of some sort, and probably at least one enmity-enhancing or enmity-generating weapon skill, to make up for the enmity loss of the reduced damage. This would need to be an attractive option for tanks, after all, and a tank that can't hold hate can't tank very well.

EDIT2: ALso, I do think there would be at least a few 'spiked' and 'bladed' shield weapons that would do, respectively, piercing and slashing damage instead of or in addition to blunt damage. But I also think they would be small in number and the exception rather than the standard. Just makes more sense thematically that way. (But I'd be going out of my way to collect them.)


EDIT3: While I doubt an actual implementation would measure up to the idea put forth in the OP's art, I can definitely see a Galka Paladin with two shields in his hands, resolutely standing against the goblin that is trying to get to the oh-so-fragile Tarutaru mages behind him, with a look that says "just try it" as he executes his new (shield) weapon skill Blade Breaker that stuns the goblin and drastically reduces the damage he can deal - which allows the healer a moment to catch some breath and rebuild some MP. Or throw out more buffs.
-----------------------------------
Sorry for the delay in clarifying the direction the Original concept was suggesting, I've been running around all day (>.<)

Your post is a great summery of the thought process around the concept I was toying with, so this is an awesome addition to the thread, thanks. To answer your questions in order:


Weapon Category
I'm indeed suggesting the implementation of a new weapon type/category vs the current available defensive only shields. These shields would be considered a Main hand weapon if used in conjunction with our traditional shields and would not activate the sub shield as a melee weapon. Only if two of these melee shields are equipped would they both be used to cause damage and thus be classified as "Dual-wielding Shields" as suggested in the Original post. The unique part of this weapon however, would be that it's actually a hybrid in terms of functionality. It would have the ability to be used as an offensive tool as well as defensive tool all by itself, so technically a player would be wielding both at once (melee + blocking + weapon skills, etc). So the programming challenge would come down to merging the properties of the two functions effectively.

Damage/Weapon skills
The damage would be on par with what a high end Axe would produce, and would indeed have an assortment of push back and enfeebling weapon skills available to the user. I can also see a number of Rush-like weapon skills that would generate spike enmity to grab the monsters attention. The damage would be primarily be blunt, but would also encompass slashing damage if a spiked or bladed-edge shield is being wielded. I really like the bonuses that you've suggested (the +shield skill, VIT based weapon skill mods) and I would include strong +counter and +parrying values to the mix. Which leads to if the melee shield should parry or not.
Since I'm suggesting this concept as a new fighting style, as awkward as it might seem, this fighting style would function like no other using an intricate mix of blocking, parrying, strong slashing/striking and stiff blows. Along with the use of two of these shields at the same time it would be a very unique display of battling.

The Devs Investment
In terms of the Devs investing time and work into a new weapon category, I believe with the new expansion coming up, finding socially unique concepts to fill out all the boarders of the new lands is a very important goal for the future of the entertainment quality produced for the loyal player base of FFXI. The last handful of "expansions" have been reskinned zones for the most part with the exception of the introduction of a few new monster types and bosses, so the new expansion has the potential to be a new rich social experience similar to Aht Urhgan. Aht Urhgan introduced two new job classes that used traditional weapon types as this new expansion will, but imagine the depth that a new weapon category could bring outside of just new job classes.
It's very much apart of the Devs job to create new and varying content for us to enjoy so I think it would hold some potential if done correctly. By "correctly" I mean not just adding it to be adding it, but truly making it something unique and rewarding for players to pick up and master.

Again, thanks for the very detailed post Yokai /salute
(Look forward to seeing that very image added to the OP with the Galka smacking the goblin btw lol)

[kingfury]

Interesting concept!

Oh, and Kingfury, what are your play times? I've been wanting to speak to you in-game about something.
-------------------------
Thanks /

I'm kind've here and there recently, but you can shoot me an email if you just have a question. My "Contact me" link is here (http://www.marcusthevisual.com/ffxisignaturegallery) on my ffxi gallery page.

[kingfury]

At first I was like "wth is this $h!t"

Than I see the illustration's and I'm like "Oh yeah, that could work"

Best thing about your suggestion's King, you always make them feel more feasible with the art work.
------------------
lol Thanks /
Yeah, as an illustrator I've come to understand that a lot of the time all it takes is a little bit of visual dressing to help convey the concept to make it clear for the audience :)

[kingfury]

While I doubt an actual implementation would measure up to the idea put forth in the OP's art, I can definitely see a Galka Paladin with two shields in his hands, resolutely standing against the goblin that is trying to get to the oh-so-fragile Tarutaru mages behind him, with a look that says "just try it" as he executes his new (shield) weapon skill Blade Breaker that stuns the goblin and drastically reduces the damage he can deal - which allows the healer a moment to catch some breath and rebuild some MP. Or throw out more buffs.
--------------------------
:)

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3316/dualwieldshields2web.jpg

[airsparrowhawk]

I'm liking this, it's good to see well-presented new ideas once in a while and a dual shield system would be pretty interesting as a combat style, maybe Square Enix could consider a new job being released with this combat style as a grounding, I'm thinking 'Guardian' personally. It'd be like a non-magical Paladin with the ability to buff it's own defence as well as those around it.

I'd like to see more multi-job integrations though, Meteor for example, is increased for every Black Mage that casts simultaneously, so why not have something similar for this but from a defensive standpoint? How about a Testudo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testudo_formation) (Turtle Shell) formation like the Ancient Roman army practiced? Or a Schiltron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheltron) formation used by spear wielders in Medieval times?

Personally I think it's something Squeenix hasn't explored yet and it's a big area for new innovative ideas. Plus the idea of using dual shields could easily be integrated into something just like this.

[Fynlar]

Speaking as someone with Aegis and Ochain, I have to support this.

[Kristal]

I doubt this idea is worth an entire new weaponskill or job, but I could see it work as a gimmicky H2H weapon like Vampiric Claws or Birdbanes.

Armguard (R)(E)
(Hand-to-hand)All Races
DMG:+30 Delay:+84
"Shieldguard"
Lv.99 WAR / MNK / RDM / DRK / PUP

Shieldguard : allows hits to be shielded using Guard skill, but disables guarding.

Or perhaps as a subslot item for H2H weapons:
Armguard
(Grip) All Races
Chance to block incoming hits +5%
Lv. 99 MNK/PUP

[Vivivivi]

Anyone ever play Rygar? The main weapon was something called Diskarmor, looked similar to these concepts, but also had a relatively large attack distance. Something between melee and ranged attack.

[kingfury]

I'm liking this, it's good to see well-presented new ideas once in a while and a dual shield system would be pretty interesting as a combat style, maybe Square Enix could consider a new job being released with this combat style as a grounding, I'm thinking 'Guardian' personally. It'd be like a non-magical Paladin with the ability to buff it's own defence as well as those around it.

I'd like to see more multi-job integrations though, Meteor for example, is increased for every Black Mage that casts simultaneously, so why not have something similar for this but from a defensive standpoint? How about a Testudo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testudo_formation) (Turtle Shell) formation like the Ancient Roman army practiced? Or a Schiltron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheltron) formation used by spear wielders in Medieval times?

Personally I think it's something Squeenix hasn't explored yet and it's a big area for new innovative ideas. Plus the idea of using dual shields could easily be integrated into something just like this.
--------------------------
Thanks for the feedback and awesome idea!

Initially, I did want to pitch this concept as a new job class (since I do honestly believe it could be fleshed out to be a unique form of a combat style), but I figured that would be far more ambitious for the upcoming expansion than simply creating the weapon itself to be used by all the current jobs that would get the most out of it's play style. However, that doesn't mean the Devs couldn't create a history around the weapon itself upon implementation that speaks of a lost warrior class that used these unique weapons primarily in battle. Heck, I'd be ecstatic if a new type of beastmen in the expansion lands still prefer to use this possible "weapon of old".

Honestly though, aside from the cool factor of dual-wielding two "death spheres" in battle, if the Dev team did invest the work into bringing this weapon to life in FFXI, it would kind of behoove them to put their own wonderful style and flare all around it as only Final Fantasy developers can. If that would mean a new job class, then yeah, I would unlock this class in a heartbeat... though I would most likely (depending on the job abilities and traits) swap it in as a fun new sub for WAR since I'm a little obsessed with the variety of that job :)

Truly awesome concept you've suggested with the team built "defensive potential" of such a weapon. I would imagine the strategy being insane around pulling off something as cool as this mid-battle, but the outcome would totally justify the means lol. Perhaps a minimum of 2 players dual-wielding these weapons (so 4 shields) could perform a simplified Testudo that protects a small to medium sized area around themselves. Furthermore, 3-4 dual-wielding players (that's 6-8 shields) could then increase both the potency of the party defense and the protection circumference around themselves. I'd love see this in real time action for sure.

Actually, apparently it's not just SquareEnix that hasn't explored this concept, cause I can't seem to find any information anywhere about a fighting style composed of dual-wielding melee shields. Unless I'm just looking in the wrong places or typing in the wrong names into google, I'm not sure if there has ever been a fighting style composed of using two shields primarily as both weapon and defense (Yeah Rygar had one badass Discarmor at his disposal, but that's where the line ends lol). I would be amazed to find out that such a fighting style ever existed.

[Nawesemo]

2 handed shield?

Just fluttered across my mind, I still think is silly. But a 2handed shield/weapon with buku +block/parry , and latent silence?

[Siviard]

Anyone ever play Rygar? The main weapon was something called Diskarmor, looked similar to these concepts, but also had a relatively large attack distance. Something between melee and ranged attack.

I only played the original Rygar on the old 8-bit NES but I get the idea. Also, wasn't there an arcade version of Rygar? I remember seeing one but never got to play it.

[kingfury]

I doubt this idea is worth an entire new weaponskill or job, but I could see it work as a gimmicky H2H weapon like Vampiric Claws or Birdbanes.

Armguard (R)(E)
(Hand-to-hand)All Races
DMG:+30 Delay:+84
"Shieldguard"
Lv.99 WAR / MNK / RDM / DRK / PUP

Shieldguard : allows hits to be shielded using Guard skill, but disables guarding.

Or perhaps as a subslot item for H2H weapons:
Armguard
(Grip) All Races
Chance to block incoming hits +5%
Lv. 99 MNK/PUP
----------------------------------
Interesting suggestion for sure, thanks for feeback /

I can see how the initial concept could come off as simply a new melee weapon, but it would actually be a new battle style entirely adding far more than just a cool aesthetic to our current battle types. It most likely wouldn't fit for Monks current H2H system since there is no "slashing, or bash-like" attacks in the standard H2H arsenal. It does however have backhand blow, and shoulder tackle which would feel just right with a shield in hand while executing, but those are about the only two that would feel right.

It's hard to explain the fluidity and ferocity I see in my head of how it would look dual-wielding these shields without damn near animating the action unfortunately, but I'll give it a shot.

Dual-wielding Shield battle strategy (breakdown)

The combatant wielding two of these shields would have them firmly in front of their body (similar to a boxer) ever ready to anticipate what the battle will throw at them. If an attack launched at them, they instinctively either move to block the attack or position themselves to parry/counter the attack to gain the offensive advantage. Staying very fluid all the while, they are patient to wait for the perfect opportunity to unleash their quick and painful assault on their enemies using a barrage of close quarters blows. The advantage of the two melee shields presents it's benefits by allowing an assortment of chained combo strikes to the combatant during an offensive maneuver. Rarely would an offensive assault end with one solo strike, but rather at the very least a combination of a strike and bash, two strikes, or even two bash attacks. Even a third or fourth strike would be common given the opportunity. Thus making this style a very fast paced dance of both attack and tactical stringing of melee type blows.
On the defensive side, an enemy would be hard pressed to find an opening readily available to exploit. The very attempt to strike at the shield wielding combatant is a sure chance at provoking an opposing shield to the face in retaliation. Constantly protected at either close range or afar, the combatant can rush to in to tank a rampaging enemy or retreat to protect the softer party members with ease. Using an handful of unique rushing attacks, the combatant can barrel fiercely into the enemy to gain it's attention and hold it with it's array of punishing defensive and offensive maneuvers.
On top of all this variety, the shield wielding combatant has a plethora of damaging and enfeebling weapon skills at their disposal. Multi-hit weapon skills would be at the forefront of these punishing skills while a variety of bashing and rushing skills would follow. The range of these skills would offer a steady and abundant selection of tools to the wielder to properly handle keeping the attention of any enemy.
I hope that helps pain a better picture since I don't know how well I could animate all that in a timely manner lol.

[Yokai]

Honestly, Kingfury, you have no trouble communicating your vision.

The problem is taking your vision and implementing it in a fitting manner without disrupting or destroying the existing game balance. If dual-shield-wield is too good, nobody uses anything else, and that's worse than not adding this in the first place.

SO the trick is this: how do we implement this, in a balanced manner, without taxing the dev team's time overly much? And what can we do before beginning development to make certain that it's worth the effort? THere's also the question of opportunity cost - what are we okay with the dev team NOT doing while they're working on this?

It's a serious question - are you okay with, for example, Seekers of Adoulin getting pushed back a month while the dev team develops and tests a shield weapon? Or, more likely, a delay in the release of new or revised weapon skills, or the release of the play-as-a-monster system, or... well, you get the idea. Similar is the question of where in the task list this should go? It's safe to say the new expansion has top priority right now (since it will sell at a profit, as opposed to being a free patch, nevermind the size and scope of it compared to anything else out since WotG,) but one look at the FFXI road map shows the dev team has a lot on their plate already.

I'd like to know what your thoughts on addressing these concerns would be, Kingfury:
* Your idea sounds great, but what keeps it balanced with existing weapons (and shields)? Why would anyone dual-wield swords or axes, or use a single-handed weapon with a normal shield, instead of your new dual-shields, on a regular basis?
* How many new assets would need to be developed for this? New graphics, new animations, new sounds, etc.
* Where in the development roadmap (http://dl.square-enix.co.jp/ffxi/US/2012roadmap.jpg) would you place development for this? Right after Seekers of Adoulin? (Okay, this is an unfair question because we don't yet know the 2013 roadmap and the 2012 roadmap is full.) Please consider what the dev team may be working on next year.

Looking forward to your response.

[Calintzpso]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvZSR2QpSoU

Still reading through this but to bring it to a middle ground like some have said might be out of SE's reach in this day and age.

Flyff has a class known as Yo-Yo fighters of acrobats. Tossing shield like shurikens that return to you. Think Xena Warrior princess but with spiked shields. The time and effort with reweighing the shields in game, the motions etc. for SE to add this or your idea however is probably to great.

However I could be wrong....SE, their PR department and translation team for FFXI sure like to take from others....Rift....Rifts....Magica Madoka Key Item bushin thing...Abbyssea heralded as the 'Cataclysm' heck I'm almost betting on voidwalkers or voids in general as being inspired by guilty crown.

[Yokai]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvZSR2QpSoU

However I could be wrong....SE, their PR department and translation team for FFXI sure like to take from others....Rift....Rifts....Magica Madoka Key Item bushin thing...Abbyssea heralded as the 'Cataclysm' heck I'm almost betting on voidwalkers or voids in general as being inspired by guilty crown.

You have things a bit mixed up here on some points. 'Bushin' is a Japanese term that far predates any anime. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushin ) and Vision of Abyssea came out six months before WoW's expansion - I think it's safe to say development on Abyssea began before there was public word of Cataclysm. And 'Rift' is a dictionary term that's far older than the game Rifts. Where do you think Rifts got the term?

And the idea of 'voidwalkers' is old, too. Pre-Lovecraft.

[kingfury]

Honestly, Kingfury, you have no trouble communicating your vision.

The problem is taking your vision and implementing it in a fitting manner without disrupting or destroying the existing game balance. If dual-shield-wield is too good, nobody uses anything else, and that's worse than not adding this in the first place.

SO the trick is this: how do we implement this, in a balanced manner, without taxing the dev team's time overly much? And what can we do before beginning development to make certain that it's worth the effort? THere's also the question of opportunity cost - what are we okay with the dev team NOT doing while they're working on this?

It's a serious question - are you okay with, for example, Seekers of Adoulin getting pushed back a month while the dev team develops and tests a shield weapon? Or, more likely, a delay in the release of new or revised weapon skills, or the release of the play-as-a-monster system, or... well, you get the idea. Similar is the question of where in the task list this should go? It's safe to say the new expansion has top priority right now (since it will sell at a profit, as opposed to being a free patch, nevermind the size and scope of it compared to anything else out since WotG,) but one look at the FFXI road map shows the dev team has a lot on their plate already.

I'd like to know what your thoughts on addressing these concerns would be, Kingfury:
* Your idea sounds great, but what keeps it balanced with existing weapons (and shields)? Why would anyone dual-wield swords or axes, or use a single-handed weapon with a normal shield, instead of your new dual-shields, on a regular basis?
* How many new assets would need to be developed for this? New graphics, new animations, new sounds, etc.
* Where in the development roadmap (http://dl.square-enix.co.jp/ffxi/US/2012roadmap.jpg) would you place development for this? Right after Seekers of Adoulin? (Okay, this is an unfair question because we don't yet know the 2013 roadmap and the 2012 roadmap is full.) Please consider what the dev team may be working on next year.

Looking forward to your response.
--------------------------
Awesome questions :) Lets address these.

Melee Shields = Too Good?
This is a tough question to answer at this concept stage without fully realizing the full scope of how effective such a versatile and unorthodox weapon could be within our current battle structure. The things that I can foresee is that this weapon would only effect a handful of jobs in which shield wielding is an equipment choice, and in only two really valid scenarios. While these weapons are being classified as "Weapons and as Shields" and would have a new combat skill category added upon it's implementation (perhaps something called "Battleshield"), I would imagine having native Shield Skill would be necessary to wield them. The Jobs Shield skill touches:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1182/shieldskills.jpg
Firstly, PLD, WAR, and WHM (WHM relatively speaking) are at the top of the list to be realistic clients to actually take advantage of these melee shields in actual high level battle situations. Not to say the other 3 jobs can't equip the shields for the fun of it, but the top 3 would have the best chance of getting the most out of using them without having to stack high amounts of Shield Skill/Accuracy equipment + Accuracy Food.

The two main situations these jobs would ever equip these new weapons would be 1. Standard-Moderate melee damage potential, and 2. Defensive and tanking opportunities. These weapons would not out damage a dedicated Damage Dealing weapon like for example a Great Axe, but similar to an Axe would offer decent damage potential. As for the Defensive pluses, all three of the top 3 jobs could benefit from swapping in these weapons to enhance their defensive effectiveness based on the roles they play in FFXI. Where PLDs and WARs would of course equip these for their "front line" job roles supplying them both damage dealing and defensive options, but the WHM could possibly swap these in should the monster come running in their direction all of a sudden and possibly effectively tactically survive a bit longer if they're skilled enough. Therefore, I don't see them as being over powered in comparison to what's currently available weapon wise, but just a new option category in the lineup selection for dealing damage while balancing defensive strategies.

Importance to the Development?
If these weapons were developed to be truly potent tools to the Tank classes in this game, then their importance could be considered very high. This possibility is of course dependent on what solutions the Dev team decide to employ to remedy the current Enmity situation that's plaguing the one job Designed from the beginning to actually tank and hold enmity (PLD). These weapons could be coupled with whatever that solution would be as a fresh new option never before offered to the player base to manage tanking effectively outside of the traditional Sword and standard shield. If properly planned, the weapon skills and stats shipped with the introduction of these weapons could alter the way tanks accomplish their roles.

With that in mind, since the development team are actively looking for solutions to the enmity problem alongside developing content for Seekers of Adoluin, one could assume the development resources and testing of this weapon could be started as soon as possible. The Devs have expressed that this is a problem they would like to solve (assuming as soon as possible), so even if they chose a simpler solution like raising the enmity cap, adding another way PLDs manage that enmity would be nothing negative in terms of intuitive development. New and useful content is always at the forefront of the Devs priorities so if they can add a deeper and more intuitive experience for a troubled job class, then it's a win.

What assets would be needed
Programming would be the 1st hurdle. Combining both attacking functionality with defensive functionality into one weapon effectively could be a challenge, but shouldn't be impossible. Under the hood, it could be simply coded as an axe that has the ability to function and look like a shield as well.
New melee/weapon skill animations for all playable races.
Adding the actual new weapons to the game and a decent variety to choose from with stats and such.
Adding the combat skill to the system
Sounds and graphical effects currently used with other weapons could be borrowed for this new weapon. No reason to not use our current battle effects for this new weapon.
Testing the weapons effectiveness in practical battle situations.
I would say that all the normal stuff that is needed for any true-to-life "NEW" FFXI content would be needed for these weapons to be made a reality. However, as I stated above, this content could harbor more game play depth as well as help to remedy a fading jobs woes rather than just being a frivolous new toy to play with. You have to remember, the Dev team worked very hard to bring us job specific emotes not too long ago that brought zero game play functionality to FFXI players other than just something to occasionally do in town while being bored. I would say that this weapon could effectively be produced at a steady pace with the current expansion content or following the expansions release since it could accomplish some valid things for players.

Again, all great questions :)

[Duvemora]

Reading the topic title, I thought it was silly... until I saw the drawings. That. is. awesome. I want this. Don't really care if it makes sense, or if it's balanced, or whatever, I want it!

I also want the shirtless dudes with dual shields running around in the game too. :D

[Leonardus]

Hey Kingfury, interesting idea.

In reality, the amount of work needed to create a new weapon class seems astronomical. Also, going by Shield Skill, only paladins, and maybe warriors will get any use out of this weapon. How are you going to explain a battleshield to the knights of Sandoria? A paladin without his sword? A warrior? Okay. A Thief or Red Mage? Odd. A Beastmaster? Even when we stay back and let the pet fight, we're not exactly known for our fine taste in shieldry (Unless you happen to be a gigas).

(So for starters, you'd have to pass off this weapon as something truly unique, like some kind of rare far-western weapon that hasn't yet reached the middlelands or something.)

Not trying to be negative. Myself, I'd like to see some actual flails someday...

[kingfury]

Hey Kingfury, interesting idea.

In reality, the amount of work needed to create a new weapon class seems astronomical. Also, going by Shield Skill, only paladins, and maybe warriors will get any use out of this weapon. How are you going to explain a battleshield to the knights of Sandoria? A paladin without his sword? A warrior? Okay. A Thief or Red Mage? Odd. A Beastmaster? Even when we stay back and let the pet fight, we're not exactly known for our fine taste in shieldry (Unless you happen to be a gigas).

(So for starters, you'd have to pass off this weapon as something truly unique, like some kind of rare far-western weapon that hasn't yet reached the middlelands or something.)

Not trying to be negative. Myself, I'd like to see some actual flails someday...
-------------------------
Thanks for the feedback /

And yep, you're correct, at the heart of this weapon's resourcefulness is a completely new concept for tanking that would be highly unorthodox to our current FFXI lands. Beyond the defensive capabilities, it would also be another way for a PLD or WAR tank to still inflict a steady flow of decent damage while performing their role. I like to think of this as offering a PLD the chance to dual-wield an Axe-like weapon. As for the 3 jobs that have the lowest shield skills of the 6, I was saying in my last post that they could possibly swap these weapons in for the fun of trying out the new damage potential of this weapon (more or less on Decent level monsters than high level stuff) but would have to stack high amounts of shield skill + accuracy gear/food to truly hope to get the most out of the defensive properties like a PLD or WAR could. It was really designed as a tanks new versatile tool.

So yeah, it would be like a lost fighting style that hasn't been seen in thousands of years only to be discovered in the new expansion lands by perhaps and old war torn npc or even a new unique beastmen tribe.

[kingfury]

Reading the topic title, I thought it was silly... until I saw the drawings. That. is. awesome. I want this. Don't really care if it makes sense, or if it's balanced, or whatever, I want it!

I also want the shirtless dudes with dual shields running around in the game too. :D
----------------------------------
Yeah, I'm starting to think I should have come up with a cooler sounding title for this thread lol. Maybe something like "New tanking weapon: Deathshields" Dual-wielding shields I'm assuming sounds a bit too misleading at 1st glance.

The more I think about it, if this weapon was introduced as a new job classes main A+ weapon choice, I would actually want to see them with tribal tattoos all over the place instead of heavy clad armor to drive home the whole "Lost Ancient civilization's weapon" look. I mean, why would a tank using two shields have to worry about piling on tons of body armor? They would have to be all quick and limber y'know :)

[kingfury]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvZSR2QpSoU

Still reading through this but to bring it to a middle ground like some have said might be out of SE's reach in this day and age.

Flyff has a class known as Yo-Yo fighters of acrobats. Tossing shield like shurikens that return to you. Think Xena Warrior princess but with spiked shields. The time and effort with reweighing the shields in game, the motions etc. for SE to add this or your idea however is probably to great.

However I could be wrong....SE, their PR department and translation team for FFXI sure like to take from others....Rift....Rifts....Magica Madoka Key Item bushin thing...Abbyssea heralded as the 'Cataclysm' heck I'm almost betting on voidwalkers or voids in general as being inspired by guilty crown.
----------------------------------
Interesting indeed 0.o Thanks for the feeback /

I would say they were more influenced by Rygar's throwing shield with the Yo Yo shurikan concept here, but it's interesting non the least. They most likely went with a Yo Yo for the practicality of a weapon actually returning to you since Rygar's shield is a bit unrealistic in that department. I would have to read more into the functionality though before I would consider them shield-like though, because the video displays a very offensive ranged display rather than blocking or reflecting attacks at the same time. Very cool though :)

In regards to the development time and workload, I just wanted to clarify that these would be new weapons entirely and our current standard shields would not have to be re-coded to function as melee shields. Folks would still be able to use a standard shield alongside these new melee shields if they wanted to, though they wouldn't really need to functionality wise (since these melee shields would be able to perform blocking) unless they had a really high end shield like an Ochain or an Aegis and wanted the stats from those shields.

[kingfury]

Anyone ever play Rygar? The main weapon was something called Diskarmor, looked similar to these concepts, but also had a relatively large attack distance. Something between melee and ranged attack.
-------------------------
Absolutely :)

I remember playing the arcade game when I was a kid, and begging for quarters every time me and my mom went to the corner store. It was truly a unique take on a heroes main weapon for an action game franchise. I never got a chance to play the PS2 version that came out a while back called "Rygar: The Legendary", so I looked up some youtube videos of the game play (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMkRlcbFO84)to get an idea of how they presented the melee shield concept in a modern platform. Unfortunately, I'm gonna have to say I'm not really that upset about missing out on this game from the looks of it. They really seem to have missed out on really designing a rich battle experience with such a cool weapon in this title and the stiffness of Rygar's moves doesn't help much either.

All in all, it's definitely a melee shield and it is being used as both an offensive and defensive weapon, so it's indeed a true to life example of the type/style of weaponized shield combo I'm suggesting. Great point, but sad to see it was such a "Meh" game for Rygar. I bet if the folks that did Devil May Cry got a hold of the Rygar franchise they would really polish the game play up and make a solid adventure title.

[Duvemora]

----------------------------------
Yeah, I'm starting to think I should have come up with a cooler sounding title for this thread lol. Maybe something like "New tanking weapon: Deathshields" Dual-wielding shields I'm assuming sounds a bit too misleading at 1st glance.

The more I think about it, if this weapon was introduced as a new job classes main A+ weapon choice, I would actually want to see them with tribal tattoos all over the place instead of heavy clad armor to drive home the whole "Lost Ancient civilization's weapon" look. I mean, why would a tank using two shields have to worry about piling on tons of body armor? They would have to be all quick and limber y'know :)

Okay, I want it even more now. The tribal tattoos would be unadulterated awesomeness. :D

[kingfury]

Okay, I want it even more now. The tribal tattoos would be unadulterated awesomeness. :D
----------------------------
Yeah, I feel an Elvaan and Mithra with the tribal tattoos all over illustration coming on :)

[tyrantsyn]

Story/lore of the job type wouldn't be that difficult.

I could see this as a lost job type of the galka's.

In the final hour's in there homelands, the last of the defender class warrior's held back the onslaught's of the antican's horde's. So that there brother's could make the retreat to the main land. The secret's and fighting style's were lost. Until the day scroll's where found detailing there technique's.

I always love the idea that some lost job class could be Resurrection from that story. I always in-vision a spartan type job class that dual wielded spears and shield's tho.

[Insaniac]

I want to tie daggers to my feet and quad wield.

[kingfury]

It's hard to explain the fluidity and ferocity I see in my head of how it would look dual-wielding these shields without damn near animating the action unfortunately, but I'll give it a shot.
---------------------------

I had to try :)

http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/3696/dualshieldsanimation2we.gif

[Demon6324236]

That would definitely kick some ass...

[kingfury]

Was trying to just show a "Rush-like" Weapon skill that would spike some high Enmity on a monster.

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8759/dualshieldsanimationwea.gif

[Metaking]

you know i think i remember seeing i think it was a sholin style similar to this, wore no armor past metal arm guards and some times large iron rings, tho some examples of there arm guards also had knuckledusters, extreme example would be what shredder from tmnt used. Anyhow the concept behind the style was the guards worked as shield and weapon apparently they were skilled enough to block arrows with them and could dominate someone with a mid range weapon like a spear, and in the rings case gave any full blow with the fist double impact.

also on a personal side i wanna say holy shit that taru has enough guns on him to sink the lintier British Nave..... keep up the good work

[kingfury]

Possible stats for the "Tough to obtain" Battle shields:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7926/battleshieldstatsweb.jpg


http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/607/battleshieldstats2web.jpg


http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/245/battleshieldstats3web.jpg

[kingfury]

you know i think i remember seeing i think it was a sholin style similar to this, wore no armor past metal arm guards and some times large iron rings, tho some examples of there arm guards also had knuckledusters, extreme example would be what shredder from tmnt used. Anyhow the concept behind the style was the guards worked as shield and weapon apparently they were skilled enough to block arrows with them and could dominate someone with a mid range weapon like a spear, and in the rings case gave any full blow with the fist double impact.

also on a personal side i wanna say holy shit that taru has enough guns on him to sink the lintier British Nave..... keep up the good work
------------------------------
Yep you're absolutely right. The bracelet type shown in "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" in that big fight scene at that tea house.

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/893/ironarm.jpg

Here's the ones you're talking about I believe.
http://spectrumculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/shaolin2.jpg

In any case, these are definitely along the lines of the concept, but I still haven't seen two round shields. I'm sure there's something out there... there's gotta be... right? (o.o)

And thanks for the feedback! Tarus should get some beefcake status if they're Damage Dealers lol.

[Demon6324236]

Curious. What slot would these go in and how would they work? What I mean is, are they supposed to be like H2H, 1 item for both slots? 2Handed with grips or their own variation of grip type items? Single handed, and possibly able to be offhanded with other weapons? Just curious. As a single handed weapon, I have to admit, I would love these weapons for stats but they would be just a tad~ overpowered... Like with Tefnut+Darksteal Scale, FC+Refresh+30%Cure potency, I would die from amazement.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Off topic: I wish I could draw like you Kingfury.

[Metaking]

hmmm the dmg to delay would have to be tweaked some seeing as most of those shields would be fighting emps for dmg to delay

sand-worm fangs and kings eyes are pritty spot on for what shields need to have on them anyhow stat wise maby int and mnd+15 the refresh would obviously have to be 1 per tic and not to nitpick but umm and not to nit pick but sandfang has a slight order of operations error on it ^.^ (str dex agi)

o and at demon i figure it works like this
Weapon + battle shield = just works like a normal shield
Battle shield + normal shield = works like any other 1 handed weapon + shield
Battle shield + battle shield = works like Dw'ed wepons

[Demon6324236]

So Tefnut+this idea=Time to drop my Arka!

[kingfury]

Curious. What slot would these go in and how would they work? What I mean is, are they supposed to be like H2H, 1 item for both slots? 2Handed with grips or their own variation of grip type items? Single handed, and possibly able to be offhanded with other weapons? Just curious. As a single handed weapon, I have to admit, I would love these weapons for stats but they would be just a tad~ overpowered... Like with Tefnut+Darksteal Scale, FC+Refresh+30%Cure potency, I would die from amazement.


hmmm the dmg to delay would have to be tweaked some seeing as most of those shields would be fighting emps for dmg to delay

sand-worm fangs and kings eyes are pritty spot on for what shields need to have on them anyhow stat wise maby int and mnd+15 the refresh would obviously have to be 1 per tic and not to nitpick but umm and not to nit pick but sandfang has a slight order of operations error on it ^.^ (str dex agi)

o and at demon i figure it works like this
Weapon + battle shield = just works like a normal shield
Battle shield + normal shield = works like any other 1 handed weapon + shield
Battle shield + battle shield = works like Dw'ed wepons
------------------------------
Hey guys, thanks for the feedback /

Metaking was right on point with all but the 1st instance, the "Weapon + Battle shield" combo. These shields by all definition are an upgrade in functionality from our current shields and are actual melee weapons and shields at the same time. So if a player (lets say a PLD or RDM) wanted to still wield their sword to have their sword weapon skills available while equipping one of these battle shields, they would pop a battle shield into their sub slot and they would be dual-wielding two melee weapons. If you didn't have a sub job that offered Dual-wield, then the sub slot would give you that error message "Cannot equip another weapon without the dual-wield job trait" thingy. Although they have the added functionality of a shield, they would most likely be programmed as weapons, so without Dual-wield, a player would have to pop in a standard shield type.

So with the correction to Metakings breakdown, it'd look like this:

Weapon + battle shield = works like Dual-wielding weapons (except you can still block attacks with the battle shield) Dual-wield job trait needed.
Battle shield + normal shield = works like any other 1 handed weapon + shield (with access to battle shield weapon skills)
Battle shield + battle shield = works like Dw'ed wepons (with access to battle shield weapon skills) Dual-wield job trait needed.

P.s. I'll switch those stats around lol >.<

In regards to the "Over Awesomeness" that could be achieved by combining the high end Battle shield example from above (that shield would most likely be tough to get ^.^), that's actually the point. These battle shields would have to be really attractive stat wise to actually be viable contenders for hard core tanks to actually consider using them over their traditional options they've come to know and love. Whether using them in either the mainhand or offhand slot, if they didn't offer some pretty sweet weapon skills and/or powerful stats, the Dev team would be hard pressed to bait players into trying them in end game content. So yeah, it would be some crazy Awesome stats across the spectrum of benefits to really make these shields desirable to the masses.

[Demon6324236]

While I understand the idea of giving them such good stats to make them more appealing... Maybe~ over doing it a bit. Honestly with those stats you out do alot of other single hand weapons easy. For instance...
Possible stats for these Battle shields:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7926/battleshieldstatsweb.jpgThis has the same STR/VIT as a Talekeeper, the Haste of Ephemeron, Counter, Double Attack, and can block, with a nice 35 DEF. In other words, this is amazing, and only level 95.

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/607/battleshieldstats2web.jpgThis with Tefnut would beat out the lv99 Cure Potency Staff. It would hit 30% cure potency with them, not to mention the massive MND, Refresh, and Fast Cast.

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/245/battleshieldstats3web.jpgSTR, high damage, Triple Attack, Def, all very high and powerful.

Now I'm not saying I don't like them, but perhaps your aiming kinda high on the stats. And also, your art is awesome!

[Belmonts]

Animations and drawings are absolutely amazing, man. And the idea totally makes sense, wish SE can hire you so we can have more fun stuff lol. Kudos. ^_^b

[Dohati]

sounds like the exact same thing as hand-to-hand and guard imo. except with the possiblity of holding a shield too. there really should be some kind of h2h-friendly sub-slot item though.

[kingfury]

While I understand the idea of giving them such good stats to make them more appealing... Maybe~ over doing it a bit. Honestly with those stats you out do alot of other single hand weapons easy. For instance...This has the same STR/VIT as a Talekeeper, the Haste of Ephemeron, Counter, Double Attack, and can block, with a nice 35 DEF. In other words, this is amazing, and only level 95.
This with Tefnut would beat out the lv99 Cure Potency Staff. It would hit 30% cure potency with them, not to mention the massive MND, Refresh, and Fast Cast.
STR, high damage, Triple Attack, Def, all very high and powerful.

Now I'm not saying I don't like them, but perhaps your aiming kinda high on the stats. And also, your art is awesome!
----------------------------------
Again, you're absolutely right! But I'll try to explain it another way to validate my reasoning on the superb stats on these dream weapons. And just to make clear, these would be the cream of the crop versions of these battle shields, the kind you have to grind end game content for so there would be far more standard battle shields to go around before folks would simply pop up with one of these babies. I would imagine these being like the Empyrian equivalent of their respective weapon class.

Lets say the amazing happened tomorrow and a member of the Community staff popped in a post saying the Devs like this weapon concept and will start working on it for the new expansion(Yeah I know, pretty far fetch, but I digress...).
They would be introducing a brand new combat skill that folks would have to start from scratch with and max out before enjoying the benefits thereof while participating in end game content.
They would be asking players to seek out high level notorious monsters (or perhaps participate in other event-related content) to obtain the Awesome versions of this new weapon listed above.
They would be hoping players would actually consider putting down their beloved Empyrian weapons that a huge percent of the player base have still not completed to lvl 99 to even attempt to consider using these weapons.
And lastly, they would be (if done according to the suggested solutions these weapons might solve stated in the Original Post) asking players to alter the way they've been playing FFXI for the past 8+ years by picking up these new and untested weapons.
All that to say, again, you're absolutely right in saying these stats are over the top, but if you've worked to create any of the special weapons awarded from FFXI (Relic, Mythic, Empyrian, etc.), then these weapons would have to be exactly Awesome/Superb/Crazy sauce and nothing less for players to actually buy into the work that would be needed to take advantage of them. It would be a true original experience for FFXI to introduce a new weapon category and would most likely cause a "Gold Rush" effect involving tons of players trying to get the most out of these new options.

And thanks in regards to the art (^.^)/

[kingfury]

sounds like the exact same thing as hand-to-hand and guard imo. except with the possiblity of holding a shield too. there really should be some kind of h2h-friendly sub-slot item though.
----------------------------
The countering and blocking would have similarities to H2H, true, but only in the since of defending the player from offensive attack. Unlike any other weapon choice we have currently available, these weapons would be designed primarily for Damage dealing and Tanking from the ground up (high enmity Weapon skills, Melee damage output, stats, etc.) and would offer a lot of versatility to a PLD for example. A PLD would be able to consider 4 different "Tanking" modes (not saying a PLD can't use a different weapon now, but just one designed specifically for tanking) of combat with the introduction of this weapon alone:
Sword + Standard Shield
Sword + Battle Shield (or vice versa)
Battle Shield + Standard Shield (Aegis or Ochain)
Battle Shield + Battle Shield
While H2H's weapon skills are powerful for a MNK to enjoy, everything from H2H's exclusiveness to the builds of it's weapon skills make it vastly different than the concept the original post is suggesting.

That said, I do agree H2H should get a sub slot though :)

[kingfury]

Off topic: I wish I could draw like you Kingfury.
-----------------------------
/Kneel (^.^) /

It's like playing the piano friend, the fundamentals can be taught, but the rest is passion and keeping an open mind :)

[kingfury]

Animations and drawings are absolutely amazing, man. And the idea totally makes sense, wish SE can hire you so we can have more fun stuff lol. Kudos. ^_^b
-----------------------
Thank you much ^^/

[Yokai]

Kingfury, knowing now that you are able to throw together weapon stat mockups, I'd like to see you hit some staple weapons of this type at more regular levels.

A couple combat shields you would see in the level 1-10 range; Level 20 or 25 craftable NQ combat shield and +1 version; A level 30 unique combat shield dropped by a soloable-but-challenging (at level 30) NM; a Lv.73 Perdu Combat Shield.

While the high-end examples you have already produced are impressive, I'm more interested in seeing what someone would use while working their way towards that.

If you intend this to be the specialist weapon of a new Job, please also show what the Lv.40 Artifact Weapon of the Combat Shield would be.

[kingfury]

Kingfury, knowing now that you are able to throw together weapon stat mockups, I'd like to see you hit some staple weapons of this type at more regular levels.

A couple combat shields you would see in the level 1-10 range; Level 20 or 25 craftable NQ combat shield and +1 version; A level 30 unique combat shield dropped by a soloable-but-challenging (at level 30) NM; a Lv.73 Perdu Combat Shield.

While the high-end examples you have already produced are impressive, I'm more interested in seeing what someone would use while working their way towards that.

If you intend this to be the specialist weapon of a new Job, please also show what the Lv.40 Artifact Weapon of the Combat Shield would be.
---------------------------------
I was working on just that lol

Here's some of the concept art around the concept of this battle style being derived from a lost civilization.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/DualWield-JobClass-WEB-1.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/DualWield-JobClass-WEB-2.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/f/f4/Adamantoise_FFXI.jpg
I was thinking along the lines of the ancient warriors being inspired by the prehistoric Adamantoise, leading them to mimic the defensive prowess native to the impenetrable beast. They crafted their helmets to resemble the skull of the beast and designed a fighting style that uses two shields to create (what they considered) a "Surrounding Shield". The war paint was to strike fear into their enemies upon the battlefield. It's one of my 1st concepts, but I'm planning to add some select body jewelry here and there, and complete the lower half of the armor.

I'll hit the different types of shields as well.

[Demon6324236]

After all is said and done, SE should definitely do this... Your doing so much to give them a running start on it :D

[kingfury]

Kingfury, knowing now that you are able to throw together weapon stat mockups, I'd like to see you hit some staple weapons of this type at more regular levels.

A couple combat shields you would see in the level 1-10 range; Level 20 or 25 craftable NQ combat shield and +1 version; A level 30 unique combat shield dropped by a soloable-but-challenging (at level 30) NM; a Lv.73 Perdu Combat Shield.

While the high-end examples you have already produced are impressive, I'm more interested in seeing what someone would use while working their way towards that.
-----------------------------------
Here's some examples of a few standard, crafted and dropped battle shields:


http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/BattleShield-Stats-5a-WEB.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/BattleShield-Stats-5-WEB.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/BattleShield-Stats-6-WEB.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/BattleShield-Stats-4-WEB.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/BattleShield-Stats-8-WEB.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/BattleShield-Stats-7-WEB.jpg

[Kristal]

I think I'm seeing a possible problem with dualwield shields in real life: any sufficiently hard blow would break your wrists :(

If the concept idea is to use armor as a weapon, wouldn't it make more sense to wear heavy armor to distribute the force of impact across a larger area? With two interlocking shields and spiked armor, you could go fully hedgehog and let the enemy tear itself to pieces.

What if, instead of bucklers, it would use a gauntlet with an oversized armguard doubling as a shield?

[airsparrowhawk]

--------------------------
Thanks for the feedback and awesome idea!

Initially, I did want to pitch this concept as a new job class (since I do honestly believe it could be fleshed out to be a unique form of a combat style), but I figured that would be far more ambitious for the upcoming expansion than simply creating the weapon itself to be used by all the current jobs that would get the most out of it's play style. However, that doesn't mean the Devs couldn't create a history around the weapon itself upon implementation that speaks of a lost warrior class that used these unique weapons primarily in battle. Heck, I'd be ecstatic if a new type of beastmen in the expansion lands still prefer to use this possible "weapon of old".

Honestly though, aside from the cool factor of dual-wielding two "death spheres" in battle, if the Dev team did invest the work into bringing this weapon to life in FFXI, it would kind of behoove them to put their own wonderful style and flare all around it as only Final Fantasy developers can. If that would mean a new job class, then yeah, I would unlock this class in a heartbeat... though I would most likely (depending on the job abilities and traits) swap it in as a fun new sub for WAR since I'm a little obsessed with the variety of that job :)

Truly awesome concept you've suggested with the team built "defensive potential" of such a weapon. I would imagine the strategy being insane around pulling off something as cool as this mid-battle, but the outcome would totally justify the means lol. Perhaps a minimum of 2 players dual-wielding these weapons (so 4 shields) could perform a simplified Testudo that protects a small to medium sized area around themselves. Furthermore, 3-4 dual-wielding players (that's 6-8 shields) could then increase both the potency of the party defense and the protection circumference around themselves. I'd love see this in real time action for sure.

Actually, apparently it's not just SquareEnix that hasn't explored this concept, cause I can't seem to find any information anywhere about a fighting style composed of dual-wielding melee shields. Unless I'm just looking in the wrong places or typing in the wrong names into google, I'm not sure if there has ever been a fighting style composed of using two shields primarily as both weapon and defense (Yeah Rygar had one badass Discarmor at his disposal, but that's where the line ends lol). I would be amazed to find out that such a fighting style ever existed.

I've looked into it and a lot of shields in past civilisations came with spikes, sharpened edges and often came with large blunt objects attached. The Hoplites for example, an ancient Greek civilization, often fought with sharp edges on their shields so it could function as both a defensive and offensive weapon. In addition, many medieval styles of combat used a single-handed sword and a small shield called a Buckler, this shield was meant to function as a 'punching shield', sometimes sharpened, and not meant to take heavy blows but merely deflect them.

It seems like an interesting idea anyways, but I can't imagine it working with any current classes so a new class may be the better choice, loving the new concepts and animations by the way, what software do you use, Photoshop for the artwork I'm guessing but what about the animation?

Also, I've started a thread just around multi-user abilities and formations (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/27120-Phalanxes-Schiltrons-and-Testudos), if you'd like to have a look feel free. ^^

[kingfury]

I think I'm seeing a possible problem with dualwield shields in real life: any sufficiently hard blow would break your wrists :(

If the concept idea is to use armor as a weapon, wouldn't it make more sense to wear heavy armor to distribute the force of impact across a larger area? With two interlocking shields and spiked armor, you could go fully hedgehog and let the enemy tear itself to pieces.

What if, instead of bucklers, it would use a gauntlet with an oversized armguard doubling as a shield?
---------------------
Nothing a bit of crafty engineering can't fix! Best of both worlds :)

The Shield would clip into the arm brace firmly and be fixed into place. The Arm brace would take the majority of any brunt force impact while the hand slot would offer grip control.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/DualWieldShields-ArmBrace-WEB.jpg

[kingfury]

I've looked into it and a lot of shields in past civilisations came with spikes, sharpened edges and often came with large blunt objects attached. The Hoplites for example, an ancient Greek civilization, often fought with sharp edges on their shields so it could function as both a defensive and offensive weapon. In addition, many medieval styles of combat used a single-handed sword and a small shield called a Buckler, this shield was meant to function as a 'punching shield', sometimes sharpened, and not meant to take heavy blows but merely deflect them.

It seems like an interesting idea anyways, but I can't imagine it working with any current classes so a new class may be the better choice, loving the new concepts and animations by the way, what software do you use, Photoshop for the artwork I'm guessing but what about the animation?

Also, I've started a thread just around multi-user abilities and formations (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/27120-Phalanxes-Schiltrons-and-Testudos), if you'd like to have a look feel free. ^^
-------------------------------
Awesome Info, Thanks! /

This weapon would be best suited in the hands of a PLD due to their A+ combat skill rating in shield so they would see the most defense response during battle. The damage side of things would depend on the weapon skills and would be a dangerous weapon in the hands of a job like WAR with all of the punishing job traits and abilities available to them. It was designed to be similar to a high end Axe, so any job that built a decent melee gear set could get the most out of this weapon. A job class especially created for this weapon would rock though lol... even though I'm a little bias :)

Yep, I'm using Photoshop for both illustration and the animating (using CS6 but I'm sure as long as you have timeline functionality you can transfer layer content to it and create your animated gif).

Very cool thread also, I dig the multi-Provoke ^.^/ (I've been wanting a Provokga for years <.< )

[airsparrowhawk]

-------------------------------
Awesome Info, Thanks! /

This weapon would be best suited in the hands of a PLD due to their A+ combat skill rating in shield so they would see the most defense response during battle. The damage side of things would depend on the weapon skills and would be a dangerous weapon in the hands of a job like WAR with all of the punishing job traits and abilities available to them. It was designed to be similar to a high end Axe, so any job that built a decent melee gear set could get the most out of this weapon. A job class especially created for this weapon would rock though lol... even though I'm a little bias :)

Yep, I'm using Photoshop for both illustration and the animating (using CS6 but I'm sure as long as you have timeline functionality you can transfer layer content to it and create your animated gif).

Very cool thread also, I dig the multi-Provoke ^.^/ (I've been wanting a Provokga for years <.< )

My pleasure, I just love seeing ideas like this come to fruition, I'm an Animation/Games Art graduate with a bit of history in modding, games ideas generation and the like so I appreciate how hard it is to concept a good idea, also I suck at drawing off the top of my head so I appreciate the amount of effort that goes into these concepts.

And I can see a PLD or WAR using this, definately, but WAR's always struck me a bit more like a 'Berserker' class, a hit-as-hard-as-you-can-despite-damage class whilst PLD's always been a bit more of a 'Magic Shield' class, the physical element of the PLD never stuck for me (at least from an art style and lore perspective anyway). It's the reason I've suggested a complete new job for this class. Also, after seeing the last concept you posted with the attachable shield, I had flashbacks of The Avengers and Captain America's mystical boomerang shield (I don't know how that works either), not sure if it would work but I hope the thought of that being in Vana'diel gave you a bit of a giggle anyway.

Ah you do it all in Photoshop? Animation and all? Cool stuff, back in college we were taught to do it in another Adobe product that hooked into Photoshop, but I can't remember the name for the life of me, I suppose nowadays it's integrated the two together hey? I like to think I'm pretty all right on my 3D animation, wish I could animate 2D stuff to the same degree but because I always did 2D animation in flash, it seemed so long-winded (although the 2D guys on my course used to tell me Flash was easier and more flexible once you got the hang of it).

And thanks! After making that first post in your thread I just had to explore the possibility and see what people thought, I'd illustrate it if I could but I'm not really any good with my drawing-from-imagination skills, I need something to base my ideas on, I never had any problem with life drawing but from the top of my head it's a no-no. Do you mind if I ask if you use references when you draw things at all or is it all from the top of your head?



Actually, apparently it's not just SquareEnix that
hasn't explored this concept, cause I can't seem
to find any information anywhere about a fighting
style composed of dual-wielding melee shields.
Unless I'm just looking in the wrong places or
typing in the wrong names into google, I'm not
sure if there has ever been a fighting
style composed of using two shields primarily as
both weapon and defense (Yeah Rygar had one
badass Discarmor at his disposal, but that's where
the line ends lol). I would be amazed to find out
that such a fighting style ever existed.

Also after going over this point I can think of two examples in games but they're really loose on the 'dual-shield' or just shield combat idea, the only things that come to mind are:

http://images.khinsider.com/Kingdom%20Hearts%20Chain%20of%20Memories/Re-CoM/Renders/Vexen.png

Vexen from Kingdom Hearts who uses a single large shield on it's own and the element of ice to fight.

http://www.dabidsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/skirmisher-champion-halo-reach-in-game-sprites.png

And the Skirmisher Murmillo from Halo: Reach, they use plasma pistols primarily to fight but utilise
dual small shields on either arm to deflect shots.

[Mathieu]

I've looked into it and a lot of shields in past civilisations came with spikes, sharpened edges and often came with large blunt objects attached. The Hoplites for example, an ancient Greek civilization, often fought with sharp edges on their shields so it could function as both a defensive and offensive weapon. In addition, many medieval styles of combat used a single-handed sword and a small shield called a Buckler, this shield was meant to function as a 'punching shield', sometimes sharpened, and not meant to take heavy blows but merely deflect them.

If it has spikes, it's usually a decorative thing. "Sharp" edges aren't really all that sharp on shields either. Lots of cultures did use them offensively, but they don't generally use either because there isn't any real point. You don't try to stab someone with the spike, it's just supposed to look scary so they stay away from you. You also never try to slash someone with the edge of the shield. Greek Hoplites and Roman Legionnaires used their shields extensively as weapons, but they don't actually try to bash people like I think you are thinking. If there is an opening, they basically try to tap them with the front edge of the shield. It doesn't sound like much, but those shields weigh so much they can very easily shatter a skull or break a limb that way.

Also, "punch" shields don't mean what you think. It's referring to how you block with them. You "punch" weapons out of the way. They are pretty much useless as an offensive weapon due to their low weight and small size.

Even so, the whole idea of "dual wielding" shields makes very little sense. The range of motion is too short. It will just look silly. Having a shield as an offensive weapon does work and has been done, it just gets ludicrous when you have two of them.

[airsparrowhawk]

If it has spikes, it's usually a decorative thing. "Sharp" edges aren't really all that sharp on shields either. Lots of cultures did use them offensively, but they don't generally use either because there isn't any real point. You don't try to stab someone with the spike, it's just supposed to look scary so they stay away from you. You also never try to slash someone with the edge of the shield. Greek Hoplites and Roman Legionnaires used their shields extensively as weapons, but they don't actually try to bash people like I think you are thinking. If there is an opening, they basically try to tap them with the front edge of the shield. It doesn't sound like much, but those shields weigh so much they can very easily shatter a skull or break a limb that way.

Adding spikes to a shield, weapon or armour in general will rarely be purely decorative, large spikes at least will add a considerable amount of weight to anything and can easily make a tool impractical if they're just slapped on carelessly for decoration and/or intimidation tactics, good combat has always been about efficiency, if there's any spikes involved, they'll nearly always be intended to be used in combat.

I'm not stating they'd bash their enemy with a large shield to cause damage, but a small shield with a sharpened edge could easily be used to take a swipe at an off-guard enemy and make a deep cut with ease, take a razor blade, even with the slowest movement you can easily cut through things, so if a stroke with a sharpened shield is delivered, slow or quick, will cut into exposed enemies quite easily.



Also, "punch" shields don't mean what you think. It's referring to how you block with them. You "punch" weapons out of the way. They are pretty much useless as an offensive weapon due to their low weight and small size.

I'm assuming by "Punch" shields you mean Bucklers? They're useless for the most part but a shot to the head with that can easily be a killing blow, unarmed boxers knock each other out all the time in the ring, if you're wielding a weighted metal object that covers your hand when you do that, you could easily crack bones with a well-placed shot. But I will agree that traditional usage is just for deflecting weapons rather than dealing blows.



Even so, the whole idea of "dual wielding" shields makes very little sense. The range of motion is too short. It will just look silly. Having a shield as an offensive weapon does work and has been done, it just gets ludicrous when you have two of them.

It does make very little sense but then again so does the idea of a Buster Sword in FFVII, a sword that size just isn't practical for movement and supposing someone actually could swing it, it'd tire that person out incredibly quickly regardless of physical strength or stamina. Still it's a beloved weapon and the great sword by extension takes from this as do a variety of fantasy zanbato.

This is a fantasy world we're talking about, you're allowed to break the rules of physics and practicality a little in return for artistic flair and well-thought out design plans to correct any flaws that would be apparent in the real world. The range of motion is no less short than that of a dagger so range on it's own isn't really an issue. Also, I'm curious, where else has it been done before?

[kingfury]

My pleasure, I just love seeing ideas like this come to fruition, I'm an Animation/Games Art graduate with a bit of history in modding, games ideas generation and the like so I appreciate how hard it is to concept a good idea, also I suck at drawing off the top of my head so I appreciate the amount of effort that goes into these concepts.

And I can see a PLD or WAR using this, definately, but WAR's always struck me a bit more like a 'Berserker' class, a hit-as-hard-as-you-can-despite-damage class whilst PLD's always been a bit more of a 'Magic Shield' class, the physical element of the PLD never stuck for me (at least from an art style and lore perspective anyway). It's the reason I've suggested a complete new job for this class. Also, after seeing the last concept you posted with the attachable shield, I had flashbacks of The Avengers and Captain America's mystical boomerang shield (I don't know how that works either), not sure if it would work but I hope the thought of that being in Vana'diel gave you a bit of a giggle anyway.
----------------------------------
Yep, this was an attempt to alter the play style of the PLD completely since their current medium-moderate damage isn't really helping them get back into end game content. I wanted to come up with something that felt "Sentinel" aesthetically, but was actually very fluid and brutal if it needed to be per the situation. If one looks at a player dual wielding axes, at 1st glance it doesn't look very intimidating, but on the battlefield they can cause considerable damage if done right. The attachable shield mechanism was really for the "How would it work in real life practically" question lol. I mean honestly, our weapons magically "float" on our waists and back in Vana d'iel so we technically don't have to worry about such details as how a shield wouldn't break someones wrists if used during combat :) but it's still fun to design solutions where necessary.



Ah you do it all in Photoshop? Animation and all? Cool stuff, back in college we were taught to do it in another Adobe product that hooked into Photoshop, but I can't remember the name for the life of me, I suppose nowadays it's integrated the two together hey? I like to think I'm pretty all right on my 3D animation, wish I could animate 2D stuff to the same degree but because I always did 2D animation in flash, it seemed so long-winded (although the 2D guys on my course used to tell me Flash was easier and more flexible once you got the hang of it).

And thanks! After making that first post in your thread I just had to explore the possibility and see what people thought, I'd illustrate it if I could but I'm not really any good with my drawing-from-imagination skills, I need something to base my ideas on, I never had any problem with life drawing but from the top of my head it's a no-no. Do you mind if I ask if you use references when you draw things at all or is it all from the top of your head?
--------------------------------
Yeah, CS6 is a beastly software even more so now that they've added video editing and even 3D functionality to it. I seriously had to watch a number of youtube videos to get a full scope on how to use all the new tools in it lol. I like flash for web animation, and that software does have union skinning available for frame by frame animation, but I just love the freedom of a good o'l Photoshop document with all of its powerful tools. I think it's the reason they've packed it so full this time around because they most likely got massive feedback that folks didn't want to leave Photoshop if they didn't have to. I'm using the old school frame by frame method in photoshop, but I'm going for a very anime feel to the animations which is as far as I know best achieved by doing it the old fashion way of animating. It takes much longer, but I like the results.

As for reference for drawing, it depends on what I'm drawing. As a rule of thumb, if I'm drawing something I've never drawn before, I make it a point to locate any and all strong reference I can to educate my minds eye on what I'm attempting to produce. On the other hand, if I'm drawing something like the human body/figure, something I've studied just about my entire art career, unless it's a super strange position I can usually pop out what I'm thinking fine without reference. In terms of the animation, I studied anime action videos frame by frame to understand how to bring that awesome energy to life.


Also after going over this point I can think of two examples in games but they're really loose on the 'dual-shield' or just shield combat idea, the only things that come to mind are:
-------------------------------------
Again, very cool examples, and I'm going to have to search for some videos of that fellow with the sharp shield to see exactly how he fights with it. I can swear I've seen an animated comic character with two glowing shields at their wrists as well and they used them for deflecting in a similar fashion but I can't put my finger on where it was. Actually in terms of comic characters, Wonder Woman very actively uses her wrist bands to deflect projectiles but it's still not "two melee shields".

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_YAHZsTbqiEM/S9SzOrdNPsI/AAAAAAAAAV8/pORngF0KNKk/s1600/Wonder_Woman.jpg

The search continues! lol

[kingfury]

If it has spikes, it's usually a decorative thing. "Sharp" edges aren't really all that sharp on shields either. Lots of cultures did use them offensively, but they don't generally use either because there isn't any real point. You don't try to stab someone with the spike, it's just supposed to look scary so they stay away from you. You also never try to slash someone with the edge of the shield. Greek Hoplites and Roman Legionnaires used their shields extensively as weapons, but they don't actually try to bash people like I think you are thinking. If there is an opening, they basically try to tap them with the front edge of the shield. It doesn't sound like much, but those shields weigh so much they can very easily shatter a skull or break a limb that way.

Also, "punch" shields don't mean what you think. It's referring to how you block with them. You "punch" weapons out of the way. They are pretty much useless as an offensive weapon due to their low weight and small size.

Even so, the whole idea of "dual wielding" shields makes very little sense. The range of motion is too short. It will just look silly. Having a shield as an offensive weapon does work and has been done, it just gets ludicrous when you have two of them.
------------------------------------
Awww now that's no fun if you drain all the "Fantasy" out of the "Final Fantasy"! ^.^

As it stands, I honestly can't say how "ludicrous" dual wielding shields would actually be in real life if done properly because I can't find any real world reference to study to make that conclusion lol. All I can do is fabricate the action via animation to try and simulate the fighting style's movement and potential at this point. If I had to put logic to it, the shields wouldn't be overly heavy, and would allow the user the mobility to switch from defensive stances to offensive stances very quickly. The edges could vary from sharp to blunt, but would be used to cause impact and slashing damage if used to jab an opponent or slice an opponent quickly. So long as the shields were fixed to the users arm in a very sturdy manner, the damage they could inflict based on the point of hitting their opponent could be very critical.

However, there's plenty of stuff currently in FFXI that logically/practically makes zero since. For example, a Tarutaru's "Great Sword or Great Axe" by scientific rules and boundaries wouldn't hurt nearly as much as a Galka's Great Sword or Great Axe. Mass and weight just wouldn't work in their favor to put a big hurt on anything but something smaller than them or someones ankles realistically :) But that's the fun of it all right there. Even though it doesn't make complete "practical" since, it's fun to watch a 3 foot character maul a 5 story monster with a weapon that's the size of a Katana. It's "ludicrous", but it's a fantasy game, so it's alright to relax and enjoy the show. ^.^/

http://tkr.cosmic-hero.com/tarugsword.bmp

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/taruGreatAxe.jpg

[Alerith]

While I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of dual wielding medium/small shields, I don't really see the practicality, other than turning your PLD into a MNK with Block instead of Guard.

Now, what I think would be more useful would be to treat sword and shield as two weapon fighting. Just like dual wield, you would strike once with your sword, then one with the shield. Give the shield a delay for attacking purposes.

Break Shield Mastery down into tiers like Dual Wield I, II, III, IV and V. Give PLD Shield Master I, II, III, IV, and V. Shield Mastery acts as PLDs Dual Wield by reducing delay.

[hideka]

lol i did this in demon souls and beat the game dualwielding shields.

[Taint2]

Awesome concept.

Its like a MNK with shields, blocks instead of counters etc.

[kingfury]

While I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of dual wielding medium/small shields, I don't really see the practicality, other than turning your PLD into a MNK with Block instead of Guard.

Now, what I think would be more useful would be to treat sword and shield as two weapon fighting. Just like dual wield, you would strike once with your sword, then one with the shield. Give the shield a delay for attacking purposes.

Break Shield Mastery down into tiers like Dual Wield I, II, III, IV and V. Give PLD Shield Master I, II, III, IV, and V. Shield Mastery acts as PLDs Dual Wield by reducing delay.
-------------------------
Well ironically, that's exactly what the concept would be although I think you underestimate what kind of a torn that kind of PLD would be to a monster. To merge the damage of a MNK with the defensive capabilities and magic spells available to a PLD would be a new battle tank class indeed for FFXI, so that would be the goal with these weapons.

The 1st goal would be to create a weapon that would be most intuitive to a PLD, so what would better than a melee shield that can cause damage and still process a block. I stated in an earlier post that a PLD would still have the option to use a sword alongside these melee shields (though it might require the "Dual wield" job trait should they choose to do so depending on how they're programmed) and it would work exactly as you're suggesting, "to treat sword and shield as two weapon fighting. Just like dual wield, you would strike once with your sword, then one with the shield"

The next goal would be to create a new and diverse list of weapon skills that would cater to a tank's need to generate high amounts of enmity. That would be possible with a new option like this since sword wasn't really designed with this in mind.

Lastly, attach some really helpful stats that would help greatly when tanking. Everything that would be absolutely amazing to have attached to a melee weapon that hasn't been available before.
In the end, such an idea would help solve some big issues with tanking if developed just right.

[Yokai]

-----------------------------------

Here's some examples of a few standard, crafted and dropped battle shields:
Alright, time for the analysis engine to get to work.

-----------------------------------

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/BattleShield-Stats-5a-WEB.jpg
[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell
DMG:8 Delay:295 DEF:1
DPS 1.62 TP/hit 7.8%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
For comparison:
[SWORD] Bronze Sword
DMG:6 Delay:231
DPS 1.56 TP/hit 6.2%
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/THF/PLD/DRK/BRD/RNG/NIN/DRG/BLU
[AXE]Bronze Axe
DMG:8 Delay:276
DPS 1.74 TP/hit 7.3%
Lv.1 WAR/DRK/BST/RNG
[KATANA]Kunai
DMG:4 Delay:190
DPS 1.26 TP/hit 5.2%
Lv.1 NIN
[DAGGER]Bronze Knife
DMG:4 Delay:195
DPS 1.23 TP/hit 5.3%
Lv.1 WAR/THF/PLD/DRK/BRD/RNG/SAM/NIN/DRG/COR/PUP/DNC
[CLUB]Ash Club
DMG:4 Delay:264
DPS 0.91 TP/hit 6.97%
Lv.1 ALL JOBS

Right off the bat I see concerns here as this most basic level 1 weapon outperforms the weapon it will most likely be compared to, the Bronze Sword. In fact, it appears to outperform every alternative weapon except the Bronze Axe, which will only be comparable for WAR and BST, and which lacks that valuable-early-on DEF+1.

Additionally, if Young Shell can be wielded as a weapon in the offhand slot at level 1, it becomes extremely powerful - this is a level range at which even Ninja can only wield one Katana, and Hand-to-Hand functions at Delay 400 with only slight combat bonuses from its weapons.


Furthermore, let's compare this to the existing NQ shield offering:
[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell
DMG:8 Delay:295 DEF:1
DPS 1.62 TP/hit 7.8%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
[SHIELD] Lauan Shield
DEF:1
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST/SAM

Well I think it's immediately obvious that these are the same thing defensively speaking, making Young Shell better without question due to its damage capability.


What I would strongly recommend is to reduce Young Shell's DMG rating by two points.


At a one-point damage reduction, you have...
[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell
DMG:7 Delay:295 DEF:1
DPS 1.42 TP/hit 7.8%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
compared to
[SWORD] Bronze Sword
DMG:6 Delay:231
DPS 1.56 TP/hit 6.2%
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/THF/PLD/DRK/BRD/RNG/NIN/DRG/BLU

Which is better, but still close enough that the Defense bonus makes the shield too easy a choice.

With two points down, you get...

[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell
DMG:6 Delay:295 DEF:1
DPS 1.22 TP/hit 7.8%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
compared to
[SWORD] Bronze Sword
DMG:6 Delay:231
DPS 1.56 TP/hit 6.2%
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/THF/PLD/DRK/BRD/RNG/NIN/DRG/BLU

which is a point where there is a real tradeoff in using one versus the other. On the one hand you get a 0.34 gain in DPS, versus DEF+1. When Protect I is still nine levels off for a starting Paladin, that's something you'll need to think about - and it's not much easier of a question for a Red Mage.

With Warrior, the Bronze Axe is rather powerful starting off, so it's a little easier to decide to use that (at least until level 5 and your first Great Axe.)


-----------------------------------

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/BattleShield-Stats-5-WEB.jpg
The issues regarding Young Shell +1 compared to other weapons are the same as its NQ version. However, here it's really worth comparing this to the Lauan Shield +1 and the Marine Shield
[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell +1
DMG:9 Delay:290
DEF:2 Shield Skill +2 (Shield Size unknown)
DPS: 1.86 TP/hit 7.7%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
compared to
[SHIELD]Lauan Shield +1
DEF:2 (Shield size 2)
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST/SAM
or
[SHIELD]Marine Shield
DEF:1 VIT+1 AGI+1 water resist +1
(Shield size 1)
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/PLD/BST/SAM

It's worth noting here that the Lv.1 Marine Shield is dropped by a Lv.12 NM. Young SHell +1, by comparison, is presumably a crafted shield, like Lauan +1. Right away it's plainly obvious that Young SHell +1 is far more useful than Lauan +1. It has SHield Skill +2 on top of DEF+2. Because VIT and AGI each give a half point to Defense and Evasion respectively, the second point of Defense on Young SHell compared to Marine Shield's 1 Defense make it strictly better than that as well due to the Parrying +2.

The solution, in this case, is to either remove the Shield Skill bonus entirely, or (and I prefer this option to help make the battle shield stand out as different than a normal shield) reduce both DEF and Shield Skill to 1 each (as well as reducing the DMG rating to balance it with weapons, similar to what I noted in the NQ weapon's part of this post.) Including the Damage change I recommended above, your resulting weapon compares like so:

[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell +1
DMG:7 Delay:290
DEF:1 Shield Skill +1 (Shield size unknown)
DPS: 1.44 TP/hit 7.7%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
as compared to
[SHIELD] Lauan Shield +1
DEF:2 (Shield size 2)
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST/SAM
or
[SHIELD]Marine Shield
DEF:1 VIT+1 AGI+1 water resist +1
(Shield size 1)
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/PLD/BST/SAM

and

[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell +1
DMG:7 Delay:290
DEF:1 Shield Skill +1 (Shield size unknown)
DPS: 1.44 TP/hit 7.7%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
as compared to
[SWORD] Bronze Sword +1
DMG:7 Delay:225
DPS 1.87 TP/hit 6%
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/THF/PLD/DRK/BRD/RNG/NIN/DRG/BLU
or
[AXE] Bronze Axe +1
DMG:9 Delay:268
DPS 2.01 TP/hit 7.1%
Lv.1 WAR/DRK/BST/RNG

Here the heightened TP gain rate makes Young Shell +1 a viable option from a solely offensive stance despite its lesser DPS, while the highly attractive Shield Skill +1 makes it stand out from the other Shields offered at level 1 - and (assuming you can dual wield the shield at level 1) the ability to stack the shield for DEF:2 and Shield Skill +2 while also getting double attacks before anyone but a Monk does makes it extremely attractive - though not necessarily moreso than being able to offhand this while mainhanding one of the above +1 weapons.





=====
I started this post early this morning and am coming back to and finishing it just before midnight, so I'm going to let it stand with just the analysis of the level 1 weapons, and I'll take a look at the higher level ones later.

Kingfury, I hope you don't think I'm being too much of a downer on these. I like what you've put together, and I really do think that if you take my suggestions here, and then extrapolate similar modifications to the higher level items, you would have gear that attracts use while avoiding complaints regarding 'broken' or 'overpowered' equipment.

If you put those out some time tonight or early in the morning (as far as Eastern time goes), I'll gladly analyze that instead of continuing on these. Not to rush you, though - if you want me to hold off, just let me know.

EDIT:
Upon further consideration, given the assumption that an NQ Young Shell placed in the off-hand slot allows for both additional attacks as well as use of the Shield Skill for blocking, you could easily remove its DEF:1 value altogether, or add a 'When equipped in Main slot' condition for the Defense bonus.

Actually, a 'when equipped in Main slot' condition for DEF bonus might be worth adding down the line for all Battle Shields, considering the value of being able to attack with it off-hand without Dual-Wield. You may want to add that to the Shield Skill value as well. Perhaps give them an off-hand only Parrying bonus (at higher levels,) if the primary-hand Battle Shield triggers Parrying instead of Shield skill. This is not something I'm entirely sold on as the best way to make Battle Shields work, but it's certainly worth consideration, I think.

[kingfury]

Alright, time for the analysis engine to get to work.
EDIT:
Upon further consideration, given the assumption that an NQ Young Shell placed in the off-hand slot allows for both additional attacks as well as use of the Shield Skill for blocking, you could easily remove its DEF:1 value altogether, or add a 'When equipped in Main slot' condition for the Defense bonus.

Actually, a 'when equipped in Main slot' condition for DEF bonus might be worth adding down the line for all Battle Shields, considering the value of being able to attack with it off-hand without Dual-Wield. You may want to add that to the Shield Skill value as well. Perhaps give them an off-hand only Parrying bonus (at higher levels,) if the primary-hand Battle Shield triggers Parrying instead of Shield skill. This is not something I'm entirely sold on as the best way to make Battle Shields work, but it's certainly worth consideration, I think.
-----------------------------------
Now that's a big post! lol

For the record, it's awesome to know that you're thinking as deeply about this concept as I am lol. Now on to the breakdown!

Alright, so the 1st thing that jumps out at me is that you're comparing this weapon to Offhand shields at level one, and that's not where the idea was heading. If anything, at level one, a player would equip this as their main hand weapon and select a standard shield for their sub. The reason it's best compared to an Axe is because that's what it was designed to most similar to in terms of damage output versus any other one hand weapons.
Theoretically speaking (unless the Devs would choose to program it otherwise should they like this idea), even though this is both weapon and shield in one, it would not activate the Dual wield job trait just by equipping it in the sub slot. In fact a player would have to choose a sub job that offers "Dual wield" to even be able to equip this weapon in their sub slot. That being said, your worries that this would be more desirable over the standard one-handed weapon because someone would use it in their offhand slot is misplaced since they wouldn't be able to achieve this at level 1. Now subbing NIN at level 20 (Since NIN gets Dual wield at level 10), that's when things could interesting and players within the job lineup could start playing with this weapon in their offhand should they want to.

It's hard to truly compare this weapon to others based on stats alone since there are no other hybrid weapons available to us, but the idea is to introduce a weapon that's the best at what it's used for which would be tanking. In other words, you wouldn't be able to fairly compare it's overall worth simply by just comparing stats with say an Axe of similar level and damage because an Axe lacks the same design functionality. In the battle shield's defense, we have a wide variety of weapon choices for offensive only damage output, but the only tool we have available to us in regards to defense is a shield and gear. That's 13 offensive only options versus only 2 defensive only options. Granted, there are MANY different types of offensive options that offer defensive stats and are technically still used to cause damage, but these are still not truly a defensive functioning option like a shield. The Battle shield would be the the definitive hybrid category birthed from a union of both offensive and defensive functionality and would stand alone in between the two.

[Zhronne]

I really like the idea but, realistically, this would require a major work the likes of which you can expect from a new expansion. And the new one is already announced, and we won't get another one after that any time soon (if ever).

This whole idea would require not only new items, which would be pretty fast to design, but completely new in-game mechanics and animations.
I think the concept goes along very well with a NEW JOB, rather than just adding this playstyle to a current one.
For example name the new job "Gladiator", give him something like medium armour, two armoured shields, and this different playstile where you dualwield shields.

What would happen with the already existing shields? Would this new class be able to equip them? Or would he need specially designed shields? At which point it would be like adding a completely different weapon category like, say, Kusarigama.
New animations, new properties, new skill levels, new weapon skills.

Now multiply that for the 5 races and for the different genders and you get an idea of the huge amount of work it would require.


There are more chances to see thi concept re-used somehow in FFXIV than FFXI, honestly.
Nonetheless, kudos for your idea Kingfury, I liked it a lot.
(wish you could draw me as a galka as sexy as the one in your first illustration... /drool )

[Yokai]

-----------------------------------
Now that's a big post! lol

For the record, it's awesome to know that you're thinking as deeply about this concept as I am lol. Now on to the breakdown!

Alright, so the 1st thing that jumps out at me is that you're comparing this weapon to Offhand shields at level one, and that's not where the idea was heading.
I was ALSO comparing it to weapons, you'll note.
You have to also compare these to shields because these weapons offer defensive bonuses as well as offensive values, and as a hybrid item they should not be outperforming the solely defensive item they will replace in the offhand slot when they can be wielded in the offhand slot.


If anything, at level one, a player would equip this as their main hand weapon and select a standard shield for their sub.
Perhaps I did not articulate this well, but this is the scenario I operated off of when comparing Young Shell with other weapons such a Bronze Axe and Bronze Sword.


The reason it's best compared to an Axe is because that's what it was designed to most similar to in terms of damage output versus any other one hand weapons.
However, you need to keep in mind that Axes are solely offensive tools, and factor in the defensive benefit of a main-hand Young Shell when making the comparison. To ignore that is to make an incomplete and inaccurate comparison.


Theoretically speaking (unless the Devs would choose to program it otherwise should they like this idea), even though this is both weapon and shield in one, it would not activate the Dual wield job trait just by equipping it in the sub slot. In fact a player would have to choose a sub job that offers "Dual wield" to even be able to equip this weapon in their sub slot. That being said, your worries that this would be more desirable over the standard one-handed weapon because someone would use it in their offhand slot is misplaced since they wouldn't be able to achieve this at level 1.
That's fair, but I would say it does not negate the majority of my analysis, only the bottom section.

Now subbing NIN at level 20 (Since NIN gets Dual wield at level 10), that's when things could interesting and players within the job lineup could start playing with this weapon in their offhand should they want to.

It's hard to truly compare this weapon to others based on stats alone since there are no other hybrid weapons available to us, but the idea is to introduce a weapon that's the best at what it's used for which would be tanking. In other words, you wouldn't be able to fairly compare it's overall worth simply by just comparing stats with say an Axe of similar level and damage because an Axe lacks the same design functionality.
I disagree strongly with you here. The Battle Shield in main-hand only, functions as a one-handed weapon that also provides defensive stats. Therefore it can be fairly compared to any other one-handed weapon. You simply need to factor in its defensive stats as part of the analysis, the same way you would factor in Parrying Knife's Parrying Skill +10 stat.

Furthermore, while trying to achieve 'best for tanking' is a noble goal, it's not excuse to disregard balance considerations.

In the battle shield's defense, we have a wide variety of weapon choices for offensive only damage output, but the only tool we have available to us in regards to defense is a shield and gear. That's 13 offensive only options versus only 2 defensive only options. Granted, there are MANY different types of offensive options that offer defensive stats and are technically still used to cause damage, but these are still not truly a defensive functioning option like a shield. The Battle shield would be the the definitive hybrid category birthed from a union of both offensive and defensive functionality and would stand alone in between the two.
it's hybrid status is why the Battle Shield needs to be compared to be existing weapon options it may be replacing as well as the existing shield options it may replace. A Battle Shield that CAN (but not always will) replace a different weapon like a Sword or Axe, is fine. A Battle Shield that CAN (but not always will) replace a normal Shield is too.

A Battle Shield that will always replace a sword or axe, or will always replace a normal shield - or worse, will always replace a weapon-and-shield or dual-wield-weapon setup - is a good idea gone terribly wrong.

[Yokai]

Fun side note: you can't edit existing posts on the mobile version of the forum site.

Even if you disagree about the 'good idea gone terribly wrong' point, the material effect is that it becomes exceedingly unlikely the dev team would provide it any serious consideration. What I want to do here is help you to maximize the likelihood of the dev team seriously considering adding these to the game.

Unfortunately that means in this case the awesome needs to be toned down to be balanced with existing equipment, both weapons and shields. It can't be better than primary comparable weapons because it is not only a weapon, it is also a shield. It can't be better than existing shields because it is not only a shield, it is also a weapon.

This is the curse of the Hybrid - it cannot be better than a specialist, yet it must still be good enough to use.

Right now, based on the Young Shell and Young Shell +1, your Battle Shields make Swords worthless and make normal Shields worthless. No way would a Paladin use anything else. A Warrior MIGHT use an Axe instead, but probably not.

[Kristal]

Well ironically, that's exactly what the concept would be although I think you underestimate what kind of a torn that kind of PLD would be to a monster. To merge the damage of a MNK with the defensive capabilities and magic spells available to a PLD would be a new battle tank class indeed for FFXI, so that would be the goal with these weapons.

Why would this be a PLD weapon though? I'd peg it more as a PUP weapon, given the weird H2H weapons they tend to use. It would be working off Guard skill, which gives MNKs and PUPs an easier route to skill it up.

Perhaps it's the imagery you've supplied, but I simply cannot see it being used by a PLD just because it has 'shield' in it's description somewhere. PLD is a shining knight in armor with sword and shield in hand, not a bare-chested tattoo-covered berserker punching with shields. MNK I can see fit that image better, but you practically need to be a circus freak to wield such an odd weapon effectively, which pegs it as a PUP weapon, along with adargas and sainti.

Perhaps you could do a side-by-side comparison of PLD, MNK and PUP, and see who pulls off the most iconic look :D

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Why would this be a PLD weapon though? I'd peg it more as a PUP weapon, given the weird H2H weapons they tend to use. It would be working off Guard skill, which gives MNKs and PUPs an easier route to skill it up.

Perhaps it's the imagery you've supplied, but I simply cannot see it being used by a PLD just because it has 'shield' in it's description somewhere. PLD is a shining knight in armor with sword and shield in hand, not a bare-chested tattoo-covered berserker punching with shields. MNK I can see fit that image better, but you practically need to be a circus freak to wield such an odd weapon effectively, which pegs it as a PUP weapon, along with adargas and sainti.

Perhaps you could do a side-by-side comparison of PLD, MNK and PUP, and see who pulls off the most iconic look :D

Ultimately it'd be a new job in itself.

It's certainly not something PUP or MNK would use though, you're fighting with shields, you know those things neither job has skill in.

[Kristal]

Ultimately it'd be a new job in itself.

It's certainly not something PUP or MNK would use though, you're fighting with shields, you know those things neither job has skill in.

Neither does PLD. Remember, these are BATTLE shields, not shields. There is no reason why H2H or Guard skill cannot be used to wield them.
Besides, if MNK or PUP can wield 'swords' http://static.ffxiah.com/images/ss/sqtn/SpotcatF1xg52cUofXN.jpg or 'axes' http://static.ffxiah.com/images/ss/sqtn/Spotcat3sf097iqzwA6.jpg, they can wield 'shields' in the same manner as well.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Neither does PLD. Remember, these are BATTLE shields, not shields. There is no reason why H2H or Guard skill cannot be used to wield them.
Besides, if MNK or PUP can wield 'swords' http://static.ffxiah.com/images/ss/sqtn/SpotcatF1xg52cUofXN.jpg or 'axes' http://static.ffxiah.com/images/ss/sqtn/Spotcat3sf097iqzwA6.jpg, they can wield 'shields' in the same manner as well.

Battle Shield it's in the name. The only difference is they would equip two and hit with them, which they do with Shield Bash already.

lol, you can't call it a sword or axe simply because it is slightly pointed or rounded, also the Battle Shield goes on the wrist, not gripped in the hand.

[kingfury]

I really like the idea but, realistically, this would require a major work the likes of which you can expect from a new expansion. And the new one is already announced, and we won't get another one after that any time soon (if ever).

This whole idea would require not only new items, which would be pretty fast to design, but completely new in-game mechanics and animations.
I think the concept goes along very well with a NEW JOB, rather than just adding this playstyle to a current one.
For example name the new job "Gladiator", give him something like medium armour, two armoured shields, and this different playstile where you dualwield shields.

What would happen with the already existing shields? Would this new class be able to equip them? Or would he need specially designed shields? At which point it would be like adding a completely different weapon category like, say, Kusarigama.
New animations, new properties, new skill levels, new weapon skills.

Now multiply that for the 5 races and for the different genders and you get an idea of the huge amount of work it would require.


There are more chances to see thi concept re-used somehow in FFXIV than FFXI, honestly.
Nonetheless, kudos for your idea Kingfury, I liked it a lot.
(wish you could draw me as a galka as sexy as the one in your first illustration... /drool )
-----------------------------
Yep, there's no escaping the amount of work this would be for the Dev team to pull off ^^

The only true validation for this huge amount of work would be the possible fix to how PLDs tank and control enmity. Currently a WAR can pull hate in just about any battle setting with enough raw damage, and there's no tank in the game that can content with that fact without some major work done to the current battle system. The Dev team has expressed this fact as undesirable since they actually do want to keep PLDs tanking end game content, but they haven't in so many words told us how that's going to happen. They've told us that they will "adjust the enmity system" soon, but unless they completely redesign that system from the ground up to cater to PLDs, the same problem could be presented even after the adjustment.

I just think the solution lies in multiple places (the enmity system, and the way PLDs deal damage), and if they truly hope to get PLDs back in the Tanking business, they could use some new options for causing damage. It would be completely unorthodox, but for anyone that's been playing this game since it's introduction, seeing a job like PLD designed from the beginning to Tank be phased out of it's primary role due to limited damage output is just as unorthodox. I know I never saw it coming, but then again no one knew we'd ever hit level 99 either lol.

[Zhronne]

The only true validation for this huge amount of work would be the possible fix to how PLDs tank and control enmity.
I don't think this would fix anything and I'm going to explain why later.
But even if for a second we suppose it would, it would make other people angry.
We all know how hard it is in this game to balance different jobs for the same role like, say, tanking.
If this new tanking style would prove to be more effective, EVERYONE would swap to this and you would see people refusing to do content unless you have a dualshield Paladin tanking.
This would also make people who like classic PLD angry. SE already showed many times that they are unable to balance out a set of options.
In the opposite chance, if this new style would be less effective than the standard PLD one, then almost nobody would use it, and we're back to square one.

Furtherly exposing my point of view now.
I think it wouldn't fix the current issue with PLD being useless because that's not happening due to any faults or issues in the current JOB.
The problem is in the Content.
It's the content that promotes for several reasons either DD tanking style or just pure zerg, and when you have content like this of course PLD cannot possibly have a role.

To fix this they need to nerf certain buffs that are currently making alliances of DDs semi invincible, they need to avoid making people abuse of Atmas, powerful temp items and similar buffs, and they need to add different content that actually requires a tank to be killed.
Done this, PLD will become useful once again.

The issue with hate is another story. First there's the lame cap thing that fucked us up all through the abyssea days.
Then there's the issue with the damage/enmity conversion ratio (those formulae are balanced for the average numbers this game produced 8+ years ago) and then there's the issue with enmity generating job abilities which do not scale with level/job/traits but produce a fixed amount of volatile enmity.

Seeing at the picture with 2012 eyes, there are several stupid things in FFXI tanking mechanics that would never happen in other modern 2012 games.
I'm not championing the idea of making tanking trivial as it is in nowadays' wow for example (where you don't even have to bother about holding damage or stealing the tank's hate) because that would be lame.
But at the same time FFXI's standards need some major updates.
For instance if developers judge that some traits/ability/skill is FUNDAMENTAL and MANDATORY to allow a PLD to succeed in the role of tanking, then they need to make so those things are NATIVE to the job itself, and do not come from other subjobs or from specific pieces of equipment.
Things like these (subjobs, equipment, merits) are part of what should make your job easier and more performant, they should not be the mandatory minimum level to even be allowed to start doing your job.
I mean, up to a certain degree it's no problem, but I think sometimes these requirements are a bit too strict for PLD.

Like for example, in the past we had PLDs who had to focus on doing more damage because that was the only possible way they could efficiently hold hate efficiently.
That's wrong imho.
Doing damage should be the purpose of DDs. For instance SE could have easily fixed that, without making PLD do too much damage, by using a different conversion ratio for Damage/Enmity.
Like giving an additional multiplier to that conversion rate and that's it, 100 damage done from a PLD will generate much more enmity than 100 done from a DD, problem solved.
I think it's pretty much demonstrated that while the + and - enmity bonus are very much welcome and useful, they alone cannot be enough to achieve that (especially because of the lame caps and inventory woes we all have these days)


Anyway, wasn't attempting to dig your idea down. As I said I reeaaaaaally love it, I just think it's not bound to happen and it's sad because it would be really awesome.
Keep your fingers crossed for FFXIV? They might add a job like that in the future, who knows.
I personally am not a big fan of the current FFXIV core game system, but it seems to me the majority of FFXI players or ex-players like it a lot.

[Kristal]

Battle Shield it's in the name. The only difference is they would equip two and hit with them, which they do with Shield Bash already.
Kriegsmesser is a greatsword. What's in a name? Let's call it Grappler's Guard then.


lol, you can't call it a sword or axe simply because it is slightly pointed or rounded
Adargas and sainti are not 'slightly' pointed or rounded... these are full-blown piercing or slashing weapons designed to put additional thrust behind them by changing the way they are held. Sainti in particular are almost identical to these battle shields, minus the wristmounted guard.


also the Battle Shield goes on the wrist, not gripped in the hand.
Actually, it does both. Go back to page 4.

As a new kind of H2H sub-type, they would automatically be dual-wielded as well.

[kingfury]

Fun side note: you can't edit existing posts on the mobile version of the forum site.

Even if you disagree about the 'good idea gone terribly wrong' point, the material effect is that it becomes exceedingly unlikely the dev team would provide it any serious consideration. What I want to do here is help you to maximize the likelihood of the dev team seriously considering adding these to the game.

Unfortunately that means in this case the awesome needs to be toned down to be balanced with existing equipment, both weapons and shields. It can't be better than primary comparable weapons because it is not only a weapon, it is also a shield. It can't be better than existing shields because it is not only a shield, it is also a weapon.

This is the curse of the Hybrid - it cannot be better than a specialist, yet it must still be good enough to use.

Right now, based on the Young Shell and Young Shell +1, your Battle Shields make Swords worthless and make normal Shields worthless. No way would a Paladin use anything else. A Warrior MIGHT use an Axe instead, but probably not.
---------------------------------------
You're correct about comparing them to our current weapons to get some footing on how balanced they would be for sure, but I was referring to the difficulty of fairly comparing this weapon to a sword, axe, or a standard shield based on it's unique niche functionality that combines two uses that makes it an obvious better candidate to tank with. It's true that new PLDs would take at look at the two options starting out:
1.(Sword + Standard Shield) or 2.(Battle Shield + Standard Shield)
They would be more inclined to choose the more defensive option since it would make more sense for a job that's sole purpose is defending. Just because this is true though, doesn't mean that it's a negative fact in a PLDs case since their current weapon set up(Sword + Standard Shield) can't compete damage wise in the games current state at high level content. This weapon would not phase out Swords for every other job, but it would offer a very real contender for a PLDs main weapon choice when considering being an effective tank. Now does that mean that PLDs would never choose to use a sword again should this weapon be introduced? I would say it would be based on the player's play style and battle situation since Swords would still have unique weapon skills that could be helpful against certain types of monsters. That, and the option to use a Sword + Battle Shield would still be a unique and possibly effective NEW option available to PLDs.

As it stands, a PLD has very few real options to choose from in terms of altering their current fate, where as a WAR has a handful of Damage Dealing options to alternate through. A WAR can still choose to use Axes if they wanted to deal damage since it was designed to do so (which was the valid choice a few years ago), but as the game has changed and new options become available, a WAR can choose another option like a Great Axe to deal damage with. Unfortunately, a PLD can't make the same choices. That's what this concept is at the foundation, another option.

I really appreciate the thought and consideration everyone here has put into shooting as many holes into this concept and questions for the sole reason of trying to help make it a serious concept to add to this great game, so know that all of your great detailed comparison data is very welcome :) Thanks

[kingfury]

I don't think this would fix anything and I'm going to explain why later.
But even if for a second we suppose it would, it would make other people angry.
We all know how hard it is in this game to balance different jobs for the same role like, say, tanking.
If this new tanking style would prove to be more effective, EVERYONE would swap to this and you would see people refusing to do content unless you have a dualshield Paladin tanking.
This would also make people who like classic PLD angry. SE already showed many times that they are unable to balance out a set of options.
In the opposite chance, if this new style would be less effective than the standard PLD one, then almost nobody would use it, and we're back to square one.
-------------------------------
As true as this is (the Gold Rush effect, and folks getting pissy about having to adjust lol), it was exactly the same thing that happened when the Devs wanted to push WARs back to using Great Axes instead of Axes. I remember being especially slow to make the transition back when it happened cause I had put considerable work into to making the best Axe gear together that I possibly could and was very satisfied with my damage output at the time... well until I saw the new damage potential of using Great Axes after the adjustments lol. So I truly know this to be accurate, but if you asked me to move back to using Axes, you'd be hard pressed to force me to give up my beloved Ukonvasara. That, and most everyone would look at a WAR like he's a noob for not having an epic Great Axe when starting a battle. It's a harsh truth, but it's just one of those things that happens sometimes in the name of changing the game.


Furtherly exposing my point of view now.
I think it wouldn't fix the current issue with PLD being useless because that's not happening due to any faults or issues in the current JOB.
The problem is in the Content.
It's the content that promotes for several reasons either DD tanking style or just pure zerg, and when you have content like this of course PLD cannot possibly have a role.

To fix this they need to nerf certain buffs that are currently making alliances of DDs semi invincible, they need to avoid making people abuse of Atmas, powerful temp items and similar buffs, and they need to add different content that actually requires a tank to be killed.
Done this, PLD will become useful once again.
--------------------------------
This is really true with our current content. My question is however, what if PLD was added to the lineup of heavy hitters against the current content? Would it put them in a negative position if they could deal damage closer to what a MNK could produce while still utilizing everything else they have to generate enmity? Would spamming high spike damage weapon skills + Curative Spells + Enmity generating spells give them a valid role in our current content?


The issue with hate is another story. First there's the lame cap thing that fucked us up all through the abyssea days.
Then there's the issue with the damage/enmity conversion ratio (those formulae are balanced for the average numbers this game produced 8+ years ago) and then there's the issue with enmity generating job abilities which do not scale with level/job/traits but produce a fixed amount of volatile enmity.

Seeing at the picture with 2012 eyes, there are several stupid things in FFXI tanking mechanics that would never happen in other modern 2012 games.
I'm not championing the idea of making tanking trivial as it is in nowadays' wow for example (where you don't even have to bother about holding damage or stealing the tank's hate) because that would be lame.
But at the same time FFXI's standards need some major updates.
For instance if developers judge that some traits/ability/skill is FUNDAMENTAL and MANDATORY to allow a PLD to succeed in the role of tanking, then they need to make so those things are NATIVE to the job itself, and do not come from other subjobs or from specific pieces of equipment.
Things like these (subjobs, equipment, merits) are part of what should make your job easier and more performant, they should not be the mandatory minimum level to even be allowed to start doing your job.
I mean, up to a certain degree it's no problem, but I think sometimes these requirements are a bit too strict for PLD.

Like for example, in the past we had PLDs who had to focus on doing more damage because that was the only possible way they could efficiently hold hate efficiently.
That's wrong imho.
Doing damage should be the purpose of DDs. For instance SE could have easily fixed that, without making PLD do too much damage, by using a different conversion ratio for Damage/Enmity.
Like giving an additional multiplier to that conversion rate and that's it, 100 damage done from a PLD will generate much more enmity than 100 done from a DD, problem solved.
I think it's pretty much demonstrated that while the + and - enmity bonus are very much welcome and useful, they alone cannot be enough to achieve that (especially because of the lame caps and inventory woes we all have these days)
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Agreed. Which is why I believe this weapon would go hand and hand with adjustments to the many other system components and could be a win win for PLDs. I would never think that it could solve everything that's wrong with system of things alone including the way the play style has changed to meet new content. If nothing else, it would offer some new variety to how PLDs tank and deal damage.


Anyway, wasn't attempting to dig your idea down. As I said I reeaaaaaally love it, I just think it's not bound to happen and it's sad because it would be really awesome.
Keep your fingers crossed for FFXIV? They might add a job like that in the future, who knows.
I personally am not a big fan of the current FFXIV core game system, but it seems to me the majority of FFXI players or ex-players like it a lot.
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Trust me, I'm more than use to opposing reasons as to why new ideas and concepts would most likely not get realized lol. I'm far more entertained at the chance to offer the Devs new ideas and concepts to a game that I've loved for so long, so it's very cool to receive any feedback on such ideas. ^.^ /

Thanks for the feedback

[kingfury]

Why would this be a PLD weapon though? I'd peg it more as a PUP weapon, given the weird H2H weapons they tend to use. It would be working off Guard skill, which gives MNKs and PUPs an easier route to skill it up.

Perhaps it's the imagery you've supplied, but I simply cannot see it being used by a PLD just because it has 'shield' in it's description somewhere. PLD is a shining knight in armor with sword and shield in hand, not a bare-chested tattoo-covered berserker punching with shields. MNK I can see fit that image better, but you practically need to be a circus freak to wield such an odd weapon effectively, which pegs it as a PUP weapon, along with adargas and sainti.

Perhaps you could do a side-by-side comparison of PLD, MNK and PUP, and see who pulls off the most iconic look :D
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I can understand how the "punching" imagery in the animation could mislead you to thinking that these weapons would be primarily used that way, but that was just one of the many ways these weapons could be used to cause damage :) As to the question of why a PLD would use these weapons, the simple answer would be because of the native affinity and A+ skill rating PLDs have that would really bring the "shield" functionality coupled with these weapons to life like no other job could. One can't help but to be jealous at how often a PLD's shield can actually trigger versus any other shield wielding job, so with this weapon in hand, the weapon's design would be fully realized during combat. That, and it was designed concept wise to be available to jobs that have a native shield skill rating, so that's PLD, WAR, WHM, RDM, THF, and BST.

Since conceptually these shields could have blunt, sharp or spiked edges, everything from punching to slashing to bashing attacks would be used to cause damage to an enemy. I tried to capture those attacks in the second animation where the weapon skill used each of these types of attacks (the Galka starts with a punching/piercing attack, then uses a rising bash attack to the enemies face, jumps back to use a charging slash uppercut that transitions into another bash to the head). All of these types of attacks would be used in combination, so it would be far more than punching shields.

As far as the gritty and primitive look of the bare chest tank look, that was created to be the foundation of where the fighting style originates based on the back story I've attached to the style itself. It indeed is an opposing image of the "Knight in shinning armor" concept we've come to know up to this point, but I figured a more brutal concept could be used to match the brutal style of fighting with these shields. I wanted the style to feel primal and raw compared to the very "Conservative" fighting style of the Knight-like PLDs. A WAR would be a perfect match imagery wise since they are based on a similar "Raw" foundation as damage dealers, so I tried to offer that option to a PLD. If a new job was created to wield these battle shields, I could easily see PLDs subbing that new job to gain the benefits of this fighting style while maintaining their polished look lol.