The Problem with Red Mage . . .

[Tamarsamar]

Everybody agrees that Red Mage as a job could use some improvements.

Unfortunately, that's the only thing that everybody agrees on.

"Give us more meaning to our signature weaponry!", cries the melee crowd. "No, don't waste your time with updates that are worthless to us!", objects the magic crowd.

"Give us Cure V, Hastega, Refreshga, Phalanxga!" suggests the magic crowd. "This job's identity should not be 'Pink Mage'!" protests the melee crowd.

Further complicating things is that not only do not all Red Mages fit neatly into either crowd, but even within each crowd there are factions, and factions within those factions, and so on ad infinitum. (http://www.xkcd.com/1095/) Therefore, it becomes exceedingly difficult for anybody, be it the community or development, to come to a consensus on what can be done to "fix" Red Mage; only the vague statement that it needs to be fixed, or at best, a couple of nifty toy suggestions for that particular person's style of playing Red Mage.

If nothing else, can we at least all agree that Red Mage should remain a flexible job with no singular "correct" style to play it, and then work from there?

[saevel]

Your argument is one of false dichotomy. It is not mage OR melee, it's both. A Red Mage without melee capability is called a Scholar. If you don't believe me go check their spell lists, everything *mage* RDM can do a SCH can do better.

I've made several posts about this, basically boils down to "fix all the above" as Red Mage should function as a party support, as magic damage or as a melee job. It shouldn't be the best in any of those categories, otherwise it would be broken. Problem now is that it's so bad in all those categories that there is absolutely no reason to ever bring a RDM to anything. A result of SE over-buffing SCH and BLU while ignoring RDM.

[Demon6324236]

Your argument is one of false dichotomy. It is not mage OR melee, it's both. A Red Mage without melee capability is called a Scholar. If you don't believe me go check their spell lists, everything *mage* RDM can do a SCH can do better.

I've made several posts about this, basically boils down to "fix all the above" as Red Mage should function as a party support, as magic damage or as a melee job. It shouldn't be the best in any of those categories, otherwise it would be broken. Problem now is that it's so bad in all those categories that there is absolutely no reason to ever bring a RDM to anything. A result of SE over-buffing SCH and BLU while ignoring RDM.

Completely correct. People in both the melee & magic sides of RDM think it can only do 1 for some reason when the job is meant to do both things. The problem is simply that SE fails to give RDM both sides of it, for instance the Teal & Pink gear, BLU was on both because it is melee & it is mage, however RDM was left on Teal alone where as it should have been on both as well. The same goes to alot of other gear of the same nature. Something that does seem like a step in the right direction is Temper & Gain-STR/DEX however if you look at RDM traits and abilities we are still restricted to mage powers only. RDM should have more power on its magic side, that I will agreed on quite a bit as our nukes are quite bad due to the loss of extra tiers of MAB and no use for T5 spells. Cures we can do well, but we have no powerful regen or native buffs to our cures like SCH or WHM do, honestly I think in curing RDM does just fine, but there is room for improvement. Melee we have no traits, at most we have Shield Mastery which has only come in the past few levels and is more a defensive tool than a melee tool. Both things should be improved because RDM is not only melee or only mage, it is both in 1, we just argue within ourselves which doesn't help SE make the right choices, partly why our Emp gear ended up as purely mage gear I think.

[Sunrider]

I've never met a pro-melee RDM that thinks only of RDM as a melee. They've simply spent the majority of their energy trying to get others to respect RDM's melee potential. There's not often much point in discussing the magical aspect since, as Demonnumbers pointed out, S-E has gone out of it's way to take care of the job's magical powers, disproportionately, even.

And frankly, party support really doesn't need to much more. Dedicated support classes have AoE for mass enhancing, RDM's tools pick up whoever's been missed (such as pullers, add groups, etc). We've routinely witnessed the general player base's keenness to force the classes into a solely support role, adding AoE powers will almost assuredly cement that position, in addition to stepping on the toes of support classes which are already kind of niche (yet exist seemingly for the sake of adding new classes). The image of the class can determine it's fate even more than it's functions, as WAR taught us well before CoP.

[ManaKing]

'ProMelee' RDMs still use magic. I'm 'ProMelee' because I think we should hit stuff with an Excalibur and cure moderately. Nuke when appropriate. Enfeeble where applicable. Anyone who still actually plays RDM pretty much plays the same. Otherwise they pick a job that is better at what part of RDM they like playing better like SCH or BLU.

The only reason why RDM fight about this stuff is all of our skills are just low enough that we want buffs for them. We all have absolutely no faith that SE will give us enough buffs to make all of our skills good enough, so we say nasty things to solidify how we want RDM to be enhanced. Example... Temper and Spontaneity both came out around the same time. Temper is awesome if you like melee. Spontaneity is meh meh for anyone that really wanted more mage prowess. Result...All RDMs unhappy that our mage side got shafted. How about that new enfeebling system?

Solution. Give us real buffs. Temper is good. Melee is ok~ish now. You still have to put in a lot of work. Cure potency is adequate. Nuking and enfeebling still looks shitty. If you want to make RDMs happier, work on nuking and enfeebling. If you want to make RDMs really happy, then give us toys that buff multiple aspects at the same time. Occult Accumen. Enspells that give elemental affinity. No one is going to complain about these kinds of buffs. Let Dia and Bio 3 stack? RDM ONRY!!!

[Demon6324236]

At the same time, would it kill them to give us at least some job traits for melee? I mean seriously if you look down our current list we have...

Magic Attack Bonus I~III
Magic Defense Bonus I~III
Fast Cast I~V
Clear Mind I~III
Shield Mastery I~II
Resist Petrify I~II
Magic Burst Bonus I~III
Tranquil HeartBut thats kinda sad when you look at a job meant to be a fighter and a mage in one, because there is only 1 slightly fighter like trait in the list, and its defensive, not to mention we first get it at level 87! I think we should get some melee traits as well...

Attack Bonus I~II(We need Dual Wield subjobs for us to do good damage, which leaves us without the ability to sub jobs with this trait, a loss in attack that hurts RDM quite badly)
Accuracy Bonus I~II(We have lower accuracy than our BLU counterpart, even with Composure, we have no access to traits as a BLU does)
Dual Wield I~III(Every single handed job in the game has access to Dual Wield in some way except PLD, even BLU, through use of spells giving traits, with this we would not need to really ask for Attack Bonus because we may not need a certain sub for DW in the first place)
Fencer I~II(RDM does not always sub a DW sub, there can be many reasons why, but if a RDM is without an offhand blade for some reason, this would give it a nice boost to its damage to attempt to make up some of the loss)
Defense Bonus I~II(There was a time when RDM was a tank beside NIN & PLD, with Runic we are losing any chance at ever reclaiming that role, however we still can tank at times, and a Defense Bonus fits with spells like Phalanx, which are meant to make RDM a more durable mage than the rest of the line up)
Occult Acumen I~IV(RDM is one of the only jobs in the game who could use this trait in an effective manner while keeping up its damage, it is all around build well for RDM, however given to jobs of which almost never see its use put into action)Of this list the only trait I see that may be over powered for RDM is the request of DW I~III for RDM, this perhaps should be only II, however I think it should go no lower. Even THF & BLU have access to DW III in the end, and they started to gain the traits at level 83(THF) & 80(BLU), so RDM could easily get access to these traits to fit in with the others. In either case however, it is somewhat pathetic that RDM has gone 99 levels as a hybrid melee mage, but SE never saw fit to give it a single melee, or attack relevant trait the entire time.

[ManaKing]

They gave us Composure, Enspells, and Phallanx instead of accuracy bonus, attack bonus, and defense bonus. Occult Acumen is what I want. It makes sense.

[Demon6324236]

I agree but you cant honestly tell me a job meant to do both melee & magic should have 0 melee traits or abilities.

[Koren]

Gain spells, Temper, Enspells, Haste, Dia, Gravity. All spells capable of assisting with melee damage, so you can't claim that RDM has nothing to help their melee side.

Edit:
That's not to say RDM shouldn't receive something. I can agree some improved gear selection such as the gear BLU is on is reasonable as well as the addition of Sword WS.

[saevel]

"Melee" side is a matter of WS selection and gear options. Fix those and we're set.

"Mage" side is about SE removing the stick from their arse and letting us aoe buffs.

There is more to then that obviously, but those are the two biggest ones.

[tyrantsyn]

"Melee" side is a matter of WS selection and gear options. Fix those and we're set.
This I couldn't agree more with. Tho some actually job traits would be sweet.


"Mage" side is about SE removing the stick from their arse and letting us aoe buffs.

This not so much, tho i wouldn't be upset to have it happen. Just moving our self target buff's in to single's targeted ones would do just fine. Honestly I fine it some what silly that any one would make a job so selfish in it's casting. Especially in a MMORPG game.

[Calatilla]

The problem with RDM is the player base can't agree on what to do with it,and SE has no clue where they're going with the job, if they're even going anywhere with it at all.

[Calatilla]

This I couldn't agree more with. Tho some actually job traits would be sweet.

RDM (of all jobs) should have been given Fencer, since, well, that's essentially what they are. Sure you can get it though sub, but they shouldn't have to.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I actually would say leave DW gained only by /nin or /dnc

That said, I'd vote for a new Job Trait.

main-gauche
Allows user to equip a parrying-dagger in their left hand. (sub slot)
Level 40 - RDM (10% Delay reduction)

Main hand must be a sword, this does give it available to all as /RDM however the only real jobs that /RDM either have native DW or can't equip Swords/Daggers

Seeing as we're depicted as a fencer, with main weapons being rapier's/épée and having B skill in both Daggers and Swords, etc it fits the image perfectly, also it allows for the additional damage, the 10% is so they can make it so Enhances "Dual Wield" Effect equipment works with it, along with a possible new category for equipment Enhances "main-gauche" effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrying_dagger

[saevel]

Well seeing as the bonus's from Fencer transfer to weapon skills, it would be a good trait to give RDM at the same levels as WAR gets.

Fencer V at 99 is
+9% Crit +55 TP

Couple this with giving RDM all the EX sword weapon skills and us having CDC and it's not a bad setup. Still loses to DW builds but at least it can hold it's own when your not /NIN or /DNC.

[Reaper]

I always assumed the problem with rdm was that SE's paradigm for them is to be jack of all trades and master of none, and in the min/maxing world of ffxi master of none kind of sucks, meaning SE's idea for rdm is for it to suck...

which I think is stupid to design a job to suck, but I cant readily think of a new idea to fix rdm that wouldnt subtract from its versatility or make it OP

but then again my rdm isnt above 60 yet so maybe my understanding of it is totally skewed, just thought I'd post my thought on it since I hadnt seen it mentioned yet
I do like rdm and hope SE eventually gives it some nice toys that are exclusive to the job, but somehow I see this being a lower priority for the dev team than finishing the up coming new jobs or rebalancing other jobs :/

[Tamarsamar]

Your argument is one of false dichotomy. It is not mage OR melee, it's both. A Red Mage without melee capability is called a Scholar. If you don't believe me go check their spell lists, everything *mage* RDM can do a SCH can do better.

Not my false dichotomy. The point of the original post was that the Red Mage community as a whole was apparently split into simultaneously wanting and not wanting two different sets of fixes; a collective false dichotomy.

Judging from the initial response to this thread, though, it seems that I was partially mistaken.

[ManaKing]

Not my false dichotomy. The point of the original post was that the Red Mage community as a whole was apparently split into simultaneously wanting and not wanting two different sets of fixes; a collective false dichotomy.

Judging from the initial response to this thread, though, it seems that I was partially mistaken.

It does seem like that from the outside, but anyone that still plays RDM or continues to have interest in it has similar opinions. We give idea after idea because we hope one will stick and not be rolled into DNC or RNF or SCH....or GEO....or FML....

We all agree we are on the shallow side of the pools in multiple categories:

Haste Gear for DDing
WS gear
WSs
Useful Enfeebles
Job Traits for melee
Job Abilities for magic (double cast where?)


None of us think that we need giant buffs. Just enough to put us back in the game. Compare BLU to RDM. We want to be somewhere closer to that. We are currently 100% perspiration and 0% dev team inspiration. We don't need free rides, but SE has given out enough of them already that it seems insulting that we don't even get a fair shake at the buff tree that so many jobs suckle upon.

[ManaKing]

I actually would say leave DW gained only by /nin or /dnc

That said, I'd vote for a new Job Trait.

main-gauche
Allows user to equip a parrying-dagger in their left hand. (sub slot)
Level 40 - RDM (10% Delay reduction)

Main hand must be a sword, this does give it available to all as /RDM however the only real jobs that /RDM either have native DW or can't equip Swords/Daggers

Seeing as we're depicted as a fencer, with main weapons being rapier's/épée and having B skill in both Daggers and Swords, etc it fits the image perfectly, also it allows for the additional damage, the 10% is so they can make it so Enhances "Dual Wield" Effect equipment works with it, along with a possible new category for equipment Enhances "main-gauche" effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrying_dagger

Does the parrying dagger give Parrying Skill?
Does this trait stack with Dual Wield so that if you do it while /NIN or /DNC you get further reductions?
If you main hand a Dagger (i.e. Mandau) and offhand a sword, do you still get the trait? What about rapier and epee type swords if not all swords?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Does the parrying dagger give Parrying Skill?
Does this trait stack with Dual Wield so that if you do it while /NIN or /DNC you get further reductions?
If you main hand a Dagger (i.e. Mandau) and offhand a sword, do you still get the trait? What about rapier and epee type swords if not all swords?

For SE to be lazy, I'd probably just have it so any dagger can go there, while potentially adding one such as:

Parrying Dagger
DMG 45 Delay 170
Attack +15 Parrying Skill +15
Increases rate of Parrying
"Tactical Parry" +2
Level 99 RDM

I'd have it so equipment with "Dual Wield" + on it would effect it, so it's completely possible the trait itself would increase it, while adding two swords instead of just sword/dagger but it would have to only increase Sword & Dagger not Dagger & Dagger/Sword & Sword.

Would be up to SE, personally I'd say yes, but if they wanted to be specific it would probably only be off-hand.

Again, it'd just be best to do all swords.

[Winrie]

If I recall correctly about a year ago SE put out their specifications for jobs and what their invisionment of the jobs role was and iirc rdm was labeled an "enfeebling specialist", nowhere in there or in the past 10 years has SE elaborated or enhanced rdms "DD" abilities because simply put, it's not a dd, same reason why rdm isn't getting aoe buffs and cure v, it's not a healer. However it's on SE now because everything is f'n resistant or immune to enfeebs and enfeeb hack whatever the hell it is they added is a complete joke, rdm is still useless and sub par compared to other jobs. Not bashing rdm dd but I am saying rdm aren't meant to fully dd, I think a rdms dd prowess shines best soloing NMs and isn't applicable to pt situations to be honest. After 10 years I think SE would of buffed our rdms for dding and/or buffed our rdms for healing, if they wanted to see rdms doing it. Even tho we cannot agree on how to play rdm and it's role ect, we all can agree we miss our rdms being viable in group situations and actually needed, and something needs to be done about it, and soon.

[tyrantsyn]

Every one's right when it comes to playing RDM, because basically there no wrong way to play it.

Problem is it's okay to nerf your melee side for really strong gear towards you magical abilities

But not okay to nerf you magically side for really strong melee abilities.

Which is shown in the really lop sided gear the job receive's. And the lack of native job trait's in melee. It's such a cool job with such a great look and style to it. And yet we have 3 job specific set's and each one has less melee traits than the last one. If they made cool RDM melee gear and made it a grind to get, ppl would spend what ever time possible to get there hands on it. And isn't that the point of the game?

[Winrie]

Melee gear not helping magical side and magical gear not helping melee out isn't a problem, gear swap. If you lose tp big deal, not like you're dealing heavy damage as rdm lol. Rdm only problem is updates to other jobs has made the jack of trades Esq style of rdm useless completely apart from whoevers decision it was to make EVERYTHING resist or immune to rdms strongest use.. Gj there.

Rdm can hit 50% cure potency yet whm has access to cure 6, we won't even get 5 to make us viable healers again, hell even sch out heals us.

Rdm can get 25% haste from gear iirc, yet rdm is weak melee wise and has no traits to back up using swords or daggers as a viable means to dd on the job.

Rdm also has good access to mab gear and such but we can be amazingly outdamaged magic wise by sch which is suppose to be along the same lines as us in the whole jack of trades job styles.

Rdm needs a unique upgrade to make it useable again.

[Lilia]

weak melee...hm..

with almace and nin duo you can do easy ws +2-4k dark sc, i dont think that is weak :)


both from my side, fencer is nice and help dmg when i go solo rdm/drk
Rdm/drk for solo abyss keyitem farm

[ManaKing]

weak melee...hm..

with almace and nin duo you can do easy ws +2-4k dark sc, i dont think that is weak :)


both from my side, fencer is nice and help dmg when i go solo rdm/drk
Rdm/drk for solo abyss keyitem farm

You can do better with Requiescat and an Excalibur. Our Melee REQUIRES a prestige weapon to be viable unlike every other job in the game. It's a catch 22.

[Demon6324236]

Be it enfeebling specialist or not, its still a hybrid job and always has been. Thats like saying BLU learns spells from mobs, its a mimic specialist, well yes, it has that kind of ability that is specializes in, however its still a hybrid. As I said before the problem is that we have been mage heavy through it all. In our entire spell list there are only 4 melee or front line spells before lv85. En-spell line(counting as 1 as it can only have 1 up at a time), Spikes(same as en-spells), Phalanx, and Haste. Up to that point we also have 0 melee traits or abilities. After 85, we have Shield Mastery, Gain-STR, Gain-DEX, and Temper. In total we have 8 things for melee at lv99 while magic abilities soar far above those. This is the main reason why RDM has any problems meleeing on the same level as a light DD, such as THF, or NIN, where as BLU is on that level or past them even when counting their Self Skillchain power.
Melee gear not helping magical side and magical gear not helping melee out isn't a problem, gear swap.All RDMs should gear swap anyways, as being a jack-of-all-trades it has way to many things to be doing with only 1 set of gear involved.
.Rdm can hit 50% cure potency yet whm has access to cure 6, we won't even get 5 to make us viable healers again, hell even sch out heals us.When you think of it, it makes some sense. WHM, Cure 5&6 along with 1 ability to double potency. SCH, Cure 4 only, however it gets an ability it can nearly spam that adds 50~60% cure on top of everything else, which adds upto a Cure 6 in power. RDM is more spread than SCH, so it gets the short end of the stick in return for its other abilities, and gets only Cure 4, however it has the fastest casting in the group so it has at least some advantage, not to mention extra MP durability in places it matters.
Rdm can get 25% haste from gear iirc, yet rdm is weak melee wise and has no traits to back up using swords or daggers as a viable means to dd on the job.Its because we have no melee or traits, we are stuck subbing 1 of 2 certain jobs to DD neither of which give us particularly great DD traits outside of Dual Wield.
Rdm also has good access to mab gear and such but we can be amazingly outdamaged magic wise by sch which is suppose to be along the same lines as us in the whole jack of trades job styles.Not so much. think of WAR WHM & BLM as primary jobs. WAR+BLM=DRK WAR+WHM=PLD WHM+BLM=SCH & WAR+BLM+WHM=RDM. They are spread between the 2 magic groups, however lack the melee power. This melee power RDM has is why it loses some of its spells. RDM could easily out nuke a stupid SCH given T5 spells. However SCH even out nukes BLM if they know how to play & gear the job, because you can abuse weather & day bonus easily and that adds on multipliers that you can abuse on any element, any zone, any day. So to say we lose on that makes perfect sense, RDM nuking has always sucked, and since we wont be getting T5s any time soon, I assume its not going to change much.
Rdm needs a unique upgrade to make it useable again.I think SE wants RDM to have next to no unique parts at all actually. I mean look at what they have done. Everything RDM has, another job has. Phalanx & Gravity are the exceptions to this, but everything else, something has in some way.
weak melee...hm..

with almace and nin duo you can do easy ws +2-4k dark sc, i dont think that is weak :)


both from my side, fencer is nice and help dmg when i go solo rdm/drk
Rdm/drk for solo abyss keyitem farmRDM can put out nice numbers, but your numbers sound like Abyssea, where you must remember that all jobs are over powered. However I agree it is a good DD given the right gear & skill, but you have to basically be one of the best possibly melee RDMs there are to match up to a somewhat average NIN or THF. Which makes it a little sad, as for Fencer, it would help but its situational use is why I think people say they don't care about it. Which is understandable, not alot of times would you be trying to DD and not /DNC or NIN but still, I would like it myself.
You can do better with Requiescat and an Excalibur. Our Melee REQUIRES a prestige weapon to be viable unlike every other job in the game. It's a catch 22.

Almace can be fairly effective as well, however I have no Excalibur just yet, still 10 Silvers away, so I can not speak as if its better or the same. As RDM we cant really be lazy with weapons, its either Relic/Mythic/Emp or we are too weak to be worthwhile.

[Economizer]

At the same time, would it kill them to give us at least some job traits for melee? I mean seriously if you look down our current list we have...


Magic Attack Bonus I~III
Magic Defense Bonus I~III
Fast Cast I~V
Clear Mind I~III
Shield Mastery I~II
Resist Petrify I~II
Magic Burst Bonus I~III
Tranquil Heart


The thing with FFXI is that a lot of mage stats will help you as a melee type class quite often. The majority of these stats help a Red Mage melee.

Magic Attack Bonus helps with magic type weapon skills. The best examples that come to mind are Aeolian Edge and Sanguine Blade, however Red Mage only has one of those (changing this would help greatly).

Magic Defense Bonus helps you stand in the thick of area of effect damage and even sometimes helps to tank magic damage. Resist Petrify traits also help in this regard.

Fast Cast is by far the best melee stat Red Mage gets. The less time you spend in the middle of casting a spell, the more time you get to spend doing melee. Just because it is also the best magic stat Red Mage gets doesn't detract from the boost it gives to the melee side.

Magic Burst Bonus helps in theory, but since a Red Mage's ability to self skillchain is somewhat low, this isn't as useful as previously mentioned traits. Shield Defense Bonus is roughly in the same boat - on paper it might help melee, but the way the game is optimally played goes against this.


I think we should get some melee traits as well...

Of the traits mentioned, there are three I'd like to focus on.

Attack Bonus I-II as a trait seems more like something you'd add for flavor. While +22 or so attack from the trait is quite nice, I think what would be better is a trait that enhances attack by a percentage against a mob that has Dia on it. This way, even if SE refuses to give higher tiers of Dia - which would be a melee RDM buff as well as a buff to any party the RDM is in - Red Mage itself will have more attack, especially since it could be a percentage buff rather then a numerical one. To make it even more juicy, have a small bonus applied to Red Mage's Magic Attack against Dia'd mobs.

Next is Accuracy Bonus. Accuracy Bonus I and Composure both give about 10 accuracy, and a tier II trait would only give ~22 accuracy, making this really just a flavor adjustment. Personally, I think it would be better to boost accuracy gained from Composure as levels go up. One way to do this would be to tie the accuracy bonus Composure gives to what it has now as a base, then increase it with higher Enhancing Magic skill. As an example to demonstrate how this could work, but not a suggestion of actual numbers, Composure would retain the current 10 accuracy base, and then for every 5 Enhancing Magic after 150, Red Mage would gain 1 accuracy, with the effect capping at 500 Enhancing Magic, meaning a Red Mage with 420 Enhancing Magic would gain 54 accuracy, just for having capped and merited Enhancing Magic under Composure.

The last trait I'd like to give mention to is Occult Acumen. While I'd also like there to be a corresponding trait for healing magic as well that Red Mage would also get, I don't really see any good reason for Red Mage not to have this trait in some measure. This is not only a good hybrid type skill, but also a perfect complement to Fast Cast.


"Melee" side is a matter of WS selection and gear options. Fix those and we're set.

I'd tend to agree more with this then even giving Red Mage more traits.

Giving Red Mage Sanguine Blade would be the main change on this. It is such an important weapon skill but sword users have to choose between it and Dual Wield.

On gear options, Red Mage is in a much better spot then it was when Abyssea came out. The situation could be better but Red Mage could be a somewhat successful melee even if the trend continued as is and other changes were made, and I'd like to recognize this now.

That said, I'd really like to see SE make good on its words about giving Red Mage gear that gives Fencer even if it wasn't a promise, and among other things, I'd like to see a set of gear for the three frontline capable white magic users. And of course, just being on more melee gear in general would be nice too.


That said, I'd vote for a new Job Trait.

main-gauche
Allows user to equip a parrying-dagger in their left hand. (sub slot)
Level 40 - RDM (10% Delay reduction)

While I'd prefer a fix for 1h weapons in general, particularly with a more viable alternative to Dual Wield, this is an interesting idea.

I think allowing the trait to be more versatile by just having the requirements be that one of the weapons carried is a dagger, or that the offhand weapon be a dagger would be perfect. While this would still kill usage by WHM/BLU, it would open up a lot more usage options rather then just a RDM, PLD, COR, and WAR getting very niche usage out of it.

Bards everywhere for example would be overjoyed with the ability to Dual Wield daggers without having to give up Red Mage sub. Rangers and Corsairs would be able to use them for a bunch of Dual Wield options. Twilight Knife Beastmasters would crop up. BLM/SCH/SMN would be able to use it for Aeolian Edge more effectively as well, as well as Club/Dagger Dual Wield. I think the only downside is that you wouldn't really get to see BLM/SCH/SMN forced to use a Rune Blade if they want to Dual Wield (speaking of which, that kinda makes me wonder if we'll see more bilbo style swords with BLM on them).

Even a small change like this would extend the usefulness of an ability, but Red Mage would still get the most usage out of the trait, since they could sub something to get Sanguine Blade and maybe some other useful job traits without purely giving up Dual Wield.


I always assumed the problem with rdm was that SE's paradigm for them is to be jack of all trades and master of none,

Despite FFXI and its min/max, this still wouldn't be so bad... until you realize you can do everything better with another jack of all trades job like BLU or SCH that has more power due to stances.

Yet Red Mage has to choose between below average magic damage and crap melee damage or below average melee damage and crap magic damage because of the choice between magic staves (which RDM has no skill in) and melee weapons (which have no affinity), but doesn't gain the benefits from stancing in this way either since it isn't a spell set list or a job ability.

I wonder if anyone could think of a middle ground between melee damage and magic damage that doesn't involve losing all your TP from swapping out weapons. I'll resist my common suggestion regarding this for now (although anyone could guess what it would be) just in case someone has a suggestion for this.


Rdm can hit 50% cure potency yet whm has access to cure 6, we won't even get 5 to make us viable healers again, hell even sch out heals us.

You don't understand how healing works if you think that Cure VI is a reason to give anyone Cure V. You don't understand how healing works if you think that Cure V is the reason White Mage is a better healer then Red Mage.

Healing in FFXI primarily works on the principle that you get enough to just barely not die during a fight, then you kill the mob faster, which will make the fight safer far better then adding more healing will. This means that if you heal "good enough" then the better healer doesn't matter if you can end the fight faster.

Ever since the (much needed) adjustments to the cure formula, Cure I-IV has been adequate for most healing if you have sufficient gear and healing magic skill. For the handful of things it does not cover, some are then covered with Afflatus Solace or Auroastorm, which are roughly on par with each other. Since the adjustment, Cure V hardly cures more then a well equipped WHM's Cure IV will, while being less MP efficient, making Cure V more of a secondary cast timer. Cure VI doesn't cure that much more then Cure V either, while costing a significantly large amount of MP that cureskin ratios can't even fix, making it a glorified emergency cure that is basically unnecessary in any meaningful way to White Mage's function.

The primary reason why White Mage is a better healer however is the Curaga line of spells, which far outpace the difference between Cure IV and Cure V. People just ask for Cure V because they see Cure VI without understanding how crap that spell is or how healing even works in the slightest way (do we really need people who don't understand healing even participating in the discussion about how it should be adjusted?), and because it sounds like less to ask for then getting access to AoE cures. There are better arguments for Red Mage getting Cure V (very few of which actually involving anything White Mage gets, but rather what other jobs get) that actually hold any logic, but I struggle to think of arguments worse then "Cure VI" for a reason to start handing out Cure V.

[Calatilla]

I think SE wants RDM to have next to no unique parts at all actually. I mean look at what they have done. Everything RDM has, another job has. Phalanx & Gravity are the exceptions to this, but everything else, something has in some way.

Phalanx isnt unique to RDM, PLD gets it natively now. Gravity is the only spell RDM has that you can't get without /rdm

The player base can't decide on what updates RDM should get because they don't know where RDM should be in regards to group events. Any mage job can enfeeble just as good as a RDM and they can also do their own jobs on top of that.

SE has taken everything from RDM and given us nothing in return because they don't have a clue where they want the job either. When people come up with good ideas of improving the job SE take those ideas and create 2 new jobs, which in turn puts RDM deeper into the hole that its been in since the 75 cap was lifted.

RDM was never really proficient at anything at 75 either as you said, other jobs had enfeebles as good as ours its just that those jobs, particularly whm and blm didn't gear specifically to enfeeble endgame mobs like they do now. The only thing we were good at during the 75 era was merit pts as a healer, and thats only because of convert and refresh, now anybody subbing /rdm gets those so we can't even do that anymore.

Some people might disagree with me here, but I`ve always seen SCH as what RDM should have been in the first place. It's like someone at a dev meeting came up with all these great ideas of improving on the job but couldn't decide how best to implement them so they just said screw it, and made SCH, everything a RDM is, just better.

And SE never once said "SCH is king of dot" until someone asked for dia/bio 4 for RDM. And the only spells they have that are DOT are helix spells.

[Demon6324236]

I forgot PLD has Phalanx but yeah, your right. But thats kinda my point, nothing is unique to RDM anymore, the last few things we do or did have will be taken by GEO & Rune I'm sure, I mean Rune already seems to be getting En-spells, whos to say GEO isn't going to get Gravity aura to slap on mobs? Its just how RDM is, but we need to be good at everything so that even though we aren't unique, we have the power to do it all. Thats where it fails.

As for everything that was said about adding traits/gear, if we had more gear I wouldn't say we need traits, but when looking at RDM against BLU in gear we get so left out while BLU can make themselves have melee traits as well, I think its only fair RDM get something after all of this time. As I pointed out in another thread over in General Discussion, BLU has access to melee & mage sets in alot of content where as RDM only gets mage. I see BLU as what RDM should be like, not the same, but similar, however RDM gets the short end of the stick by being slapped on the mage side with everything while its melee is left to rot in most cases. Asking for traits is only 1 path that leads to the same solution, give RDM more melee options for attack and accuracy among other stats that would help it, just like BLU has, after that I will be perfectly happy where the job sits.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It's why I'm so adamant for Faith and Brave, I like the concept of Temper, in that it grants a type of trait under spell format.

The idea of augmenting yourself via the means of spells to me is a really good idea, so while they're not the best at the jobs, they can augment themselves to be much better, but Temper isn't enough. More unique spells are needed.

Things like:

Magic Attack Bonus, Accuracy, Fencer, Conserve MP, Subtle Blow etc....

[Crimson_Slasher]

Im still for the tandem clone buff, on say a 5-10 min timer, a fully buffed rdm able to clone al its buffs (and composure for durration) to another player would, if nothing else, promote lowman events (Duos? Trios? Salvage would be fun for this...)

However i wouldnt mind a pianisimo style buff for this. Ofcourse this would require the RDM be constantly buffing people... Just a fun idea to me. Like say a WAR suddenly getting Gainstr, Temper, Phalanx, stoneskin, blink, enspell, icespikes, composure, haste, aquaveil (for shadows? Dunno, would still be up) Regen/refreshII(again, still up) and protect/shellV in a single shot could be a fun thing. However that still wouldnt put us on frontline, just require we spend more time buffing ourselves. Doesnt mean i wouldnt like something like that.

[saevel]

It's why I'm so adamant for Faith and Brave, I like the concept of Temper, in that it grants a type of trait under spell format.

The idea of augmenting yourself via the means of spells to me is a really good idea, so while they're not the best at the jobs, they can augment themselves to be much better, but Temper isn't enough. More unique spells are needed.

Things like:

Magic Attack Bonus, Accuracy, Fencer, Conserve MP, Subtle Blow etc....

I've always been of this mind. RDM should have several self buffs that augment it's stats, this way a RDM could chose to be more proficient at mage tasks (MAB / Cure Pot / FC / ect..) or more proficient at melee tasks (DA / Atk / Acc / Haste).

I've said it many times and I'll keep saying it. RDM is composed of three jobs not one or two. WAR, WHM and BLM put together, not a WHM -2, BLM -2, or even a SCH -3 and most definitely not a BRD -2. People keep wanting to shove it into those roles because those are popular roles and while the specialists are always the best choice, there is enough wiggle room that they could pretend to fill the same role. In the past it most mostly being a WHM-1 and pretending that was fine.

[Demon6324236]

WAR
WHM
BLM
WAR+WHM=PLD
WAR+BLM=DRK
WHM+BLM=SCH
WAR+WHM+BLM=RDM

[Neisan_Quetz]

WAR
WHM
BLM
WAR-2+WHM-3=PLD
WAR(sacrificing HP for damage)+BLM-4=DRK
WHM-1(LA)+BLM-1(DA)=SCH
WAR-3+WHM-3+BLM-3=RDM

fixed (10char)

[Demon6324236]

What? You expect them to just throw everything from 1 job and another job into 1? No, they balanced it right, and they are what I said they are.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you consider it balanced, well then.

[Demon6324236]

For the most part outside of RDM losing out on the melee aspects. PLD has the defense of WAR and some cure power. DRK has the attack of WAR with the ability to steal stats from their foe with magic. SCH can use high level and powered spells of both arts, however can not access the highest cures, or AoE nukes. RDM can use cures at a nice level, nukes are somewhat decent for their tier, but melee... kinda sucks.

[ManaKing]

It's why I'm so adamant for Faith and Brave, I like the concept of Temper, in that it grants a type of trait under spell format.

The idea of augmenting yourself via the means of spells to me is a really good idea, so while they're not the best at the jobs, they can augment themselves to be much better, but Temper isn't enough. More unique spells are needed.

Things like:

Magic Attack Bonus, Accuracy, Fencer, Conserve MP, Subtle Blow etc....

Temper is pretty much as good as it gets for us. We probably won't get traits because RDM has composure. I'm not really complaining, because that means our traits are based on our enhancing skill and well... mine is 500+

[Crimson_Slasher]

Plus side of spell based traits, potency can be improved up to a cap. However downsides of limitations based on level (Will be less effective at lower levels), Requires mp and management to maintain them, and requires major skilling to cap em. Not that skill isnt important and shouldnt be capped, but its true.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Temper is pretty much as good as it gets for us. We probably won't get traits because RDM has composure. I'm not really complaining, because that means our traits are based on our enhancing skill and well... mine is 500+

Perhaps as it stands now, but one day they may remove their heads from the sand.

[ManaKing]

My list of things I want is pretty short these days because the more I gear, the more I realize where my limitations actually are.

You can cap cure potency without using either your main hand or offhand. Translation: no staff required and no losing TP for cures.

Enfeebles apparently aren't getting fixed after all, so what else is new. I think we all saw that coming.

If you've kept up with Stoneskin, enhancing gear, fast cast, and PDT, you're probably as tough as me. Which is pretty obnoxious. Phallanx getting a little love would be appreciated, but not a lot, just a little more scaling to level 99.

Nuking is looking kinda shitty at level 99 and so are Enspells. Spikes aren't even worth mentioning unless you are talking about a major overhaul. This is essentially our sore spot now. If you kill 2 birds with 1 stone then you release Enspells that give us affinity and actually hit for more than Enspell 1s. You will make a great many RDMs happy by doing such a thing.

Occult Acumen. Gimme. No seriously. Do it. That's the only job trait I care about.

[CapriciousOne]

Everybody agrees that Red Mage as a job could use some improvements.

If nothing else, can we at least all agree that Red Mage should remain a flexible job with no singular "correct" style to play it, and then work from there?

I couldnt agree more with you and couldn't have said it better myself. Anybody that cant see that to me is a moron. It is clear that both sides are lacking for rdm but I think it pretty safe to say that nobody expects it to outshine jobs designed for specific purposes like WHM for cure or BLM for nukes.

Personally I am more for the melee side improving bc I think absolute mages dont wield bladed weapons of any kind but that just me but I never neglect to use my enfeebles and enhancements as needed. In addition of most mages I think RDM is more survivable as mages go other than BLU solo. To me the point of Red Mage is to be able to ADJUST TO CHANGING CIRCUMSTANCES REGARDLESS OF OUR PLAY PREFERENCE. In that sense alot of the mage improvements as well as melee improvements suggested all throughout this forum could be utilized to achieve that equilibrium but SE has shown little interest in making headway using our "INDECISION" as an excuse to do NOTHING AT ALL.

Given some mobs especially in endgame content have different weakness and even some immunities to one or both of magic and melee, RDM shines in the regard of adjusting better than most jobs even without a subjob. I think both sides are right for wanting there favorite aspects of the job to be better but an option to disable crap we dont like or never use in game would be nice. Like I would love to disable spells i never use so they dont crowd up my active spell list like lower tier spells, and Blink since it only good for like 2 successful attacks(or at least the last time i used it which was like about a year ago now, lol) For melee personally I would've loved a natural "Dual wield" trait over say "Magic burst bonus" and Temper but I can at least make some use of Temper for time to time.

In any case I've about given up on RDM because of the developers and might just go PLD or BLU or something instead. Overall though regarless if one is a melee or mage RDM all you're seeing is that people only promote what they care most despite sometimes those other enhancements can come in handy.

[ManaKing]

Given some mobs especially in endgame content have different weakness and even some immunities to one or both of magic and melee, RDM shines in the regard of adjusting better than most jobs even without a subjob. I think both sides are right for wanting there favorite aspects of the job to be better but an option to disable crap we dont like or never use in game would be nice. Like I would love to disable spells i never use so they dont crowd up my active spell list like lower tier spells, and Blink since it only good for like 2 successful attacks(or at least the last time i used it which was like about a year ago now, lol) For melee personally I would've loved a natural "Dual wield" trait over say "Magic burst bonus" and Temper but I can at least make some use of Temper for time to time.



I'm going to have to disagree pretty heavily. Temper essentially put us back in the game in the melee department. It gives you as much Double Attack from a spell, than most DDs can get from gear.

You can /NIN or /DNC if you want dual wield. If you are talking about getting some use out of melee, Temper is pretty much the greatest thing we have. Without it we would still be bad.

[CapriciousOne]

I'm going to have to disagree pretty heavily. Temper essentially put us back in the game in the melee department. It gives you as much Double Attack from a spell, than most DDs can get from gear.

You can /NIN or /DNC if you want dual wield. If you are talking about getting some use out of melee, Temper is pretty much the greatest thing we have. Without it we would still be bad.

Dont get me wrong it is a nice addition but i just dont like the spell form it was given i rather have it as a trait then a spell bc there is already some a list of spells I dont find much use for past 90 lately. Also dont get me wrong /DNC is a nice addition as far as subjobs and is a centerpiece in my style of play as far as meleeing but it would be nicer to have dual wield natively so i can sub some other combinations more often without losing my offhand weapon. I dont like /nin too much bc of all the tools needed to carry around on a regular basis and the rip off prices to buy them or the nusiance of having to crafting it myself. I always fancy some maybe less than desired combos like RDM/SCH, RDM/BLU, RDM/BLM just to toy around with solo but I refuse to give up that second melee swing EVERY ATTACK ROUND to do it so I SETTLE for temper because SE doesnt leave much choice. Still it is useful so I wouldnt call it a total waste.

[Calatilla]

So yea, Dev team, if you really do care about player feedback read through this thread and when you've finished tell us honestly, are you going to use any of these ideas in any way to fix RDM or are you just going to ignore it's problems and let it sit in a corner crying to itself? Tell us honestly yes or no, because we need to know.

The players care about this job even if you don't.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Dont get me wrong it is a nice addition but i just dont like the spell form it was given i rather have it as a trait then a spell bc there is already some a list of spells I dont find much use for past 90 lately. Also dont get me wrong /DNC is a nice addition as far as subjobs and is a centerpiece in my style of play as far as meleeing but it would be nicer to have dual wield natively so i can sub some other combinations more often without losing my offhand weapon. I dont like /nin too much bc of all the tools needed to carry around on a regular basis and the rip off prices to buy them or the nusiance of having to crafting it myself. I always fancy some maybe less than desired combos like RDM/SCH, RDM/BLU, RDM/BLM just to toy around with solo but I refuse to give up that second melee swing EVERY ATTACK ROUND to do it so I SETTLE for temper because SE doesnt leave much choice. Still it is useful so I wouldnt call it a total waste.

I disagree, I don't think we should get all that much in trait format, the only thing I'd say was my previous suggestion of a type of dual wield. Spells that grant the traits at a more potent version suit the job (IMO) far more than traits would.

[Sunrider]

The problem I have with adding to RDM solely through spells is the addition of yet more spells to cycle, whether for ourselves or for the party. Even with Composure, one would start to feel the burden if successive spells were to be added compensating for this, that, and the other trait.

It might be fine if the spells had durations similar to Protect or Shell, but those two seem to be exceptions rather than rules.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The problem I have with adding to RDM solely through spells is the addition of yet more spells to cycle, whether for ourselves or for the party. Even with Composure, one would start to feel the burden if successive spells were to be added compensating for this, that, and the other trait.

It might be fine if the spells had durations similar to Protect or Shell, but those two seem to be exceptions rather than rules.

Just more reason to further add means to enhance duration, like merits.

I think Spells is the only way we'll ever get melee buffs, and personally I'm fine with that. I've made suggestions such as Faith and Brave here http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26797-Let-Producer-Matsui-Know-How-He-Should-Catch-Up-on-2-Years%21?p=354038&viewfull=1#post354038 that does multiple buffs in one spell.

[Calatilla]

Isn't Brave essentially what Embrava is?

[ManaKing]

Dont get me wrong it is a nice addition but i just dont like the spell form it was given i rather have it as a trait then a spell bc there is already some a list of spells I dont find much use for past 90 lately. Also dont get me wrong /DNC is a nice addition as far as subjobs and is a centerpiece in my style of play as far as meleeing but it would be nicer to have dual wield natively so i can sub some other combinations more often without losing my offhand weapon. I dont like /nin too much bc of all the tools needed to carry around on a regular basis and the rip off prices to buy them or the nusiance of having to crafting it myself. I always fancy some maybe less than desired combos like RDM/SCH, RDM/BLU, RDM/BLM just to toy around with solo but I refuse to give up that second melee swing EVERY ATTACK ROUND to do it so I SETTLE for temper because SE doesnt leave much choice. Still it is useful so I wouldnt call it a total waste.

i like /NIN and /DNC both. /NIN seems expensive at first, but then you realize that you can seal farm with it and utsu 1+2 makes you a really strong solo. NIN elemental debuffs are also very potent and require no actual skill to profit from. If you are trying to land enfeebles in VW, they go a long way to doing it in 1 or 2 casts instead of the 4 or 5 everyone else has to do. Also, you can proc with them.

/DNC has it's own little bag of tricks, but the thing that kills me about it is that they essentially cut off the toys a couple levels too early. Chocobo Jig and Building Flourish would have made /DNC almost as good as /NIN.

[CapriciousOne]

I disagree, I don't think we should get all that much in trait format, the only thing I'd say was my previous suggestion of a type of dual wield. Spells that grant the traits at a more potent version suit the job (IMO) far more than traits would.

well over all in the quest to 99 i think all jobs should have what could be considered staples of the jobs as traits every 5 levels or so upto say at least a third tier. Essentially that would make the main job have like 6 tier 3 traits and maybe 3 tier 2 traits from subs.

For me if I built RDM it would look more like "Enhancing Magic Duration"(I know composure does this to some degree but some spells are excluded), "Enhancing Magic Potency"(for en/barspells), "Enfeebling magic evasion/Resistance"(instead of individual resists) as primary traits. These primary traits would cover like 4 tiers ever every 5 levels so about 60/99 levels that exists. Secondary traits like "Dual Wield", "Double attack", "Conserve MP" would cover 2 tiers every 5 levels to round out the other 30 levels. There could even be one final end all be all trait like RDM Mastery that doubles the effect of all those traits but SE will never be that generous and if they are they would give it those new jobs, but I would do most jobs with that same concept.

BLM would have Elemental Attack/Defense traits, BRD the same for songs, DNC the same for Steps/Sambas/Waltzes without meritting. I didnt list stuff liek "Fast Cast" because honestly I thing SE was dumb for even making a separate trait for that in the first place. Now that I even think about it the same could be said about "Conserve MP". I only say that because I look at it from the perspective that the more you learn about something the better you get it at it, even if the maximum potential to learn it is limited by IQ or whatever. With that said it is plausible that the better your skill at enfeebling the more successful you are at landing enfeebles(Accuracy) and the faster you are able to do the job (speed) and the less effort is required to do so (Cost) but to be fair I am spoiled by Bethesda Softworks a little.(ok a lot).

[CapriciousOne]

i like /NIN and /DNC both. /NIN seems expensive at first, but then you realize that you can seal farm with it and utsu 1+2 makes you a really strong solo. NIN elemental debuffs are also very potent and require no actual skill to profit from. If you are trying to land enfeebles in VW, they go a long way to doing it in 1 or 2 casts instead of the 4 or 5 everyone else has to do. Also, you can proc with them.

/DNC has it's own little bag of tricks, but the thing that kills me about it is that they essentially cut off the toys a couple levels too early. Chocobo Jig and Building Flourish would have made /DNC almost as good as /NIN.

Yea I havent really been focusing much on event type stuff like VW because of all the skilling up and magian trials I been trying to get done plus I dont always play well with others, lol. I do think I agree with you about nin getting cheaper later on as far as tool expenditures as skill increases and i like the elemental wheel effect of how one builds off the others but my nin is still only like level 41 atm but I will get back to it as overall I do plan to get all my jobs to 99 but i'm in no rush to do so and I'm primarily focused on RDM, THF, and DNC so far and maybe BLU soon afterward but NIN will probably be right behind it if not before it.

[CapriciousOne]

The problem I have with adding to RDM solely through spells is the addition of yet more spells to cycle, whether for ourselves or for the party. Even with Composure, one would start to feel the burden if successive spells were to be added compensating for this, that, and the other trait.

It might be fine if the spells had durations similar to Protect or Shell, but those two seem to be exceptions rather than rules.

Yea that was always my concern too even back when i was 55RDM because I hated cycling all those spells for the crew when truthfully a WHM was better suited to doing it for everybody in one fell swoop. I much rather have them do it and do what I can to support/protect them from all the hate then be the one to do it myself. In any case between cycling between those spells for myself and the party it might would've been helpful if Refresh 1 and Refresh 2 spells stacked together so I can get the my back faster to keep up more reliably without converting, risking me dying and screwing the pooch so to speak for the party.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Isn't Brave essentially what Embrava is?

Sort of, but it'd be a self-target buff. Embrava came from people calling for Brave for RDM, like a lot of stuff for other jobs actually.

Main difference is my version of Brave is Attack+ Accuracy+ and Regen+ other than Regen it shares nothing else with Embrava.

[Slvr_Stryker]

[[ comes in as BLU to crash the party ]] Hay gaiz, I herd dis waz teh complant fiel 4 BLU? 8D

But no, in all seriousness...I think a lot of it has to do with the player base as well. Yeah, SE isn't exactly throwing you any favors one way or the other, but the general consensus (one that I share) is the whole "jack of all trades" ideal, where they may not be the best at everything, but they're at least proficient enough in all of the things to matter enough in the long run. It also doesn't help that, for the longest time in this game, people forgot about the specialists that were WHM and BLM in a few key events, like exp or Dynamis. Sure, in the latter's case, you would still see both of them, but in the former's case, around the time when Colibri parties came along, both of those jobs virtually became obsolete. RDM could support the party for a much longer time than any WHM could, and it's not like you could effectively cast magic on Colibri without them casting it right back at you. Even in endgame events like sky, ground kings, Dynamis, anything...the thought of not going without a RDM or two was virtually unheard of. RDMs had a *lot* of fame back before the level caps rose...and then it suddenly it vanished when the levels rose past 75. All of what involved breaking past 75 meant that other mage jobs became more relevant again, leaving RDM, that "jack of all trades" in the dust. I will very freely admit, and this is very bold and highly rude of me, that I personally view all of the complaints about "Oh, RDM should get this!" "Oh, RDM should get that!" "Hey, why didn't RDM get this, this was designed for us and is better suited for us!" as...well...as incessant whining and moaning about how every single career RDM misses their glory days and wants to get them back. And I'm fairly sure that a lot of players in this game that we play probably have the same views I do.

However, this is to say that I don't feel that RDM needs something new and refreshing. I know, taking RDM up to only 49 means I missed half of what makes RDM great (I leveled it as a sub for my BLU, go figure), but knowing a few RDMs personally does at least help me realize the fact that RDM does indeed need *something* to make itself relevant in this game once again, and reading through this thread helps me consider a few things.

For the Melee side of RDM...let's face it, RDMs probably aren't going to compare to, say, WAR or DRK nowadays, but I think it is fairly safe to say that the melee side does need a boost. Maybe some RDM-exclusive gear that helps give them extra physical power, and I'm sure that WARs wouldn't even miss Sanguine Blade if it was taken off of them and slapped onto RDM. As far as Daniel_Hatcher's idea of Brave...I like it...except for the Regen+ ideal. You do have to keep in mind that if you were given something, it would likely be used alongside Composure, which means a really long duration and potency for all three of those stats, which is something that not even BLU gets. I know, I know, "but BLU gets all these unique buffs and spells that we don't get", I get it. But here's the thing: as I've stated elsewhere (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26820-The-Melee-Mage?p=357304&viewfull=1#post357304), BLUs are not as flexible as you RDMs. We have to plan and map out in advance what we need to use the most to boost our effectiveness, where as you guys can swap in and out as you please with no penalty or wait time. Not to mention that we generally have no real way of boosting all of our most interesting buffs in both length and duration; they're all static timers, and we don't have a Composure ability.

On the magic side...well, again, I've already said something very vocal about that: Dualcast (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/24757-Doublecast?p=337418&viewfull=1#post337418). The simple fact is, if it was actually possible to code in the way I envision it, it would do a number of things for the job's magic side. It would help boost numbers in nuking damage, it would create the ability to give out stronger cures, and it would single-handedly help step enfeebling, which in this game is a RDM's top skill, back into the spotlight once more. As far as AoEing spells...I don't really think that's the case here. Maybe instead of limiting to self-target, like how Temper is, limiting it to only single-target, but still restricting it from being Accession'd or spread out in any way, shape, or form. If you look at a lot of what RDM has, aside from Diaga, it really has virtually 0 spread-target spells. Everything they have is single-target only, and I highly think it should stay that way. Ties in to the whole "specialist would be better off, but this works in a pinch" ideal that RDMs generally persist in having.

[Kristal]

Warmage Armor set for RDM 99
* Magic Attack Bonus -100
* Unable to cast Elemental Magic Skill
* Sword Skill +100
* Enspell : Melee attacks occasionally deal elemental damage
* Enspell : Elemental Damage Bonus +100%
* Enspell II : additional elemental damage on non-main hits
* Accuracy +75
* Attack +75
* Haste +25% (gear cap)
* STR +50
* DEX +50
* MND +50
* Set: Regain +2~5
* Set: Damage Taken -50%
* Sphere: Regain +2~5

Ok, stats are a bit crazy, but the idea is that the Warmage set focusses on melee, in particular the RDM specific enspells, and boosts it considerably while penalizing nuking.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

[[ comes in as BLU to crash the party ]]As far as Daniel_Hatcher's idea of Brave...I like it...except for the Regen+ ideal.

The thing is even with Composure and Regen II stacking it's not really anything special and it no way detracts from SCH's Regen.

Regen II + Brave = 24 Regen /tic
SCH Regen II = 36 Regen /tic

Originally I decided on Haste being added to Brave and Fast Cast to Faith, but I could see SE saying no due to being OP, so settled on recovery forms of the stat damaged. Regen = Brave - Refresh = Faith.

[Ophannus]

I found it lame that they made SCH into the DoT damage and DoT heal king. I figured let SCH be a BLM and WHM at once, that's their kick. But I always felt that RDM should have gotten the Regen/Refresh/Adoloquiem/Helix/Embrava/Kaustra not the SCH. The mistake SE made was giving high level enfeebling to BLM WHM and DRK. Every enfeebling spell after level 50 should have been RDM only. The only unique enfeebles RDMs have are our merit enfeebles. No other mage has only their merit spells as their unique main spells. BLM's moved past AM2 with Tier5 nukes and ajas. WHMs use protectra/shellra5 but they dont need to cuz they have the single target. RDM is nothing without its merit spells which are level 75. Level 99 RDM still holding on to their precious level 75 spells when WHM and BLM have new cures, new regens, new nukes and new enhancing spells to play with.

>>>Turn rdm merit spells into scrolls and then just make RDM's tier2 merits into traits that enhance those spell lines.
Bio Mastery
Dia Mastery
Paralyze Mastery
Phalanx Mastery
etc...

[Economizer]

WHMs use protectra/shellra5 but they dont need to cuz they have the single target.

lolwut?

I'm all for fixing the Red Mage merits in the manner you describe and then some but let's not speak mistruths when doing so. Protectra might still be a bit of a joke but there is a reason we call White Mages without 5/5 Shellra gimp.

[Tamarsamar]

I know, I know, "but BLU gets all these unique buffs and spells that we don't get", I get it.

For the most part, you are mistaken. It's not your buffs or spells that we don't get that we're complaining about; it's your insane gear availability over us (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26820-The-Melee-Mage?p=356142&viewfull=1#post356142).

(Also, I remember you from the old HSSS podcast; I enjoyed your narrative!)

[Ophannus]

RDM is restricted to cloth armor and scale armor whereas BLU gets most cloth armor but also rogue armor(encompasses light armor for THF/MNK/DNC/COR/BRD/NIN). So BLU can use things like Ocelomeh/Toci's/Homam/Thaumas and RDM cannot. The tradeoff is that RDM can use Rubeus(meh), Anhur, Hyskos, Nares

[Demon6324236]

For the most part, you are mistaken. It's not your buffs or spells that we don't get that we're complaining about; it's your insane gear availability over us (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26820-The-Melee-Mage?p=356142&viewfull=1#post356142).

(Also, I remember you from the old HSSS podcast; I enjoyed your narrative!)

This is completely true, for me at least. It isn't so much the buffs, or spells, or anything of the sort that has ever bothered me. My problem will always be the gear options, ever since I saw that Emp gear for RDM was limited to 100% mage stats, I knew it was going to be bad, but I didn't honestly expect it like this. RDM is on some non-All Jobs haste gear, but limited outside of the occasional "mage" gear piece with haste on it like Shedir body or Rubeus Spats it seems. Where as BLU is not the same, it gets access to a wide range of gear, for all types of things, such as Toci's, Athos, and with Neo-Limbus gear. Were RDM open to the same gear as a BLU is I would be perfectly happy where RDM would stand with melee. As I have said before, I would trade my Zelus in for a Oce. Headpiece +1 any day!

[ManaKing]

RDM has good gear for melee. It's just all a pain in the ass to get. Not as much Double, Triple, or Quad as I would like, but Temper is good enough for me. 0% Crit support for CDC, which is why Req is better on RDM.

[Demon6324236]

RDM has good gear for melee. It's just all a pain in the ass to get.

Thats... mostly true. "Good" is somewhat incorrect in my opinion, it would be closer to say decent, or ok, not good. BLU is good on it, its not Heavy DD level by far, but it has alot of Attack, Acc, STR, DEX, and other stats that can really help out. On RDM you cant really say the same, 1 main set you see this in is...

http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/2/29/Oce._Headpiece_%2B1_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/c/c8/Toci%27s_Harness_description.png
the closest you can come to this combo as RDM is basically...
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/9/94/Khthonios_Mask_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/6/62/Shedir_Manteel_description.png
Looking at them side by side you get...

BLU|RDM
DEF
92|87
STR
13|0
DEX
26|0
Haste
7|8
Attack
10|24
Accuracy
10|10
Regen
2|0
Double Attack
3|0
Triple Attack
3|0
Store TP
0|4

Looking at all of that, BLU seems to be better with everything except Attack, which is offset by the STR the BLU would get with their gear, and Haste, which is minor given that BLU gets access to...

http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/f/fc/Twilight_Belt_description.png
Where as RDM's closest equal is
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/a/aa/Phasmida_Belt_description.png
Thats not to say RDM can not get a belt with 7%, there is always Phos, but that still lacks the +2% Double Attack, and Phos+1 may have 8%, but that is currently somewhat unrealistic, and accessible by BLU all the same.

As I said, RDM gear is "decent" but not "good" thats why I ask for improvement. You are right, Temper is good, great even, but its still enough to make up for the lack of gear RDM is given in my opinion, seeing as BLU is put on so much gear, while RDM is left so far behind on it.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

RDM is restricted to cloth armor and scale armor whereas BLU gets most cloth armor but also rogue armor(encompasses light armor for THF/MNK/DNC/COR/BRD/NIN). So BLU can use things like Ocelomeh/Toci's/Homam/Thaumas and RDM cannot. The tradeoff is that RDM can use Rubeus(meh), Anhur, Hyskos, Nares

It's more a case of: RDM get's shoved on what they think is meh enough to do so, with a random good piece in there.

Armour RDM had in the past, they haven't really got past 99, except a random piece here and there. Even pieces where they take RDM's Chapeau, and then make sure they're not on it.

[tyrantsyn]

Very frustrating to see a gear type that RDM could wear but has been left absent on. The whole athos set really cause's the head to tilt and the expression of WTF to come out. When did it become an issue to wear a doublet set on RDM?!?!?!

[ManaKing]

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/265028

I understand that other jobs get better, but the point is you would do well with a set like that.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/270187

Oh looks full haste in 40%~ PDT.

We have gearing options. It's just that when we do gear for ANYTHING, there are still 2~5 gear sets that we also have to work on. That's why RDM doesn't have bad gear, they just don't have an easy time acquiring it all. Not enough low hanging fruit for 3 jobs worth of gear.

I get that what we have isn't as good as a full DD AND we have to make other sets up to par to be good, but it keeps me busy. It's not like other jobs don't have to gear to the teeth, but the difference is they probably only have to gear 2~3 sets to be effective at the entirety of their job. Our job covers more ground than that.

We could sit here and debate back and forth how bad we have it, or we could appreciate that at least we have more melee options than we did at 85 and 90. Because our options then sucked. Like hard. Zelus Tiara or go home. No thanks.

I'm hoping for some really good toys out of salvage. I know that is just hoping, but Morrigan's set was good back in the day. If they mess that up, I'll probably be pretty angry for a bit.

TL;DR If you don't like collecting a ton of gear, are you sure you really want to be a RDM?

[Demon6324236]

Collecting a ton of gear isnt the problem, its seeing that BLU is on more gear and RDM gets left out of alot of gear. I would spam Pil all day for a Toci's if RDM could use it, otherwise I dont care about it, I might actually try for Athos gear at that point as well. I mean really in the end, I could even use the pink body as its better than Antares Harness, and thats a lv78 body.

I wont argue we have it bad, in some spots I still think we do, however as I said, I think were decent on gear but not good. We get left out of alot of WS gear like Oce or Toci's that beat what we have now, and get left out of alot of haste gear, or DA/TA/QA gear that BLU has, those lower our overall effectivness in the end and limit our choices. Last thing I want to say though is just a little nod to your full haste in 40% PDT, you can do better than that with RDM still, you can get 47% PDT with capped haste (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/269704) and almost cap MDT on the side.

[ManaKing]

Point being that Athos and Toci's aren't for RDM. We aren't setup for being good at Crit WS. They aren't going to put us on Athos because we can't spare the inventory. I used to carry around an Almace and an A. Harness. It was inventory -1 gear. You don't have to carry around a bunch of fail DEX gear that is going to clog your inventory because you only use it for WS. CDC is junk on RDM outside of Aby and it always will be.

RDM has all the WS gear they need to put out good WS numbers with Requiescat. Furthermore, we are the best at it. It's a multi-hit WS with a 100% MND modifier. If you're a RDM and you don't use Req already, you need to start. Req was specifically made for us by SE. No one else comes close to us on it because of what we can wear, which is absurd amounts of MND gear. It is 5 hits, with off hand means you have 6 and you can have 2 potential extra swings which are provided by Temper. That's an 8 hit WS waiting to happen, and it happens all the time for me. Wear a Soil Gorget and Belt and jam on as much MND gear as you can find and go to town. It's that simple.

If you still love your Almace, please play PLD or BLU if you want to be good with it. You will do much better with it than you will on RDM. SE has no interest in making an Almace RDM the best RDM can be. You use an Excalibur, just like in every other FF game.

If you prefer daggers, go for it. It's a different setup entirely.

And if you want to use CDC go for it too, but don't expect SE to support it, because they clearly don't. The best you're going to do is spend all of your expansion gear on WS pieces for RDM and waste more inventory space on WS. I get that CDC could be better than Req if we had the gear, but they clearly aren't giving it to us and they did give us a more than viable alternative that saves us a ton of inventory space.

TL;DR You get to hit things with Galaxies. It's a no-brainer.

[Tamarsamar]

If I had to, I could forgive Toci's.

Athos's, however, is completely unacceptable, no matter how you slice it.

[Calatilla]

CDC only sucks on RDM because the gear we have to use with it sucks, thats the whole point. SE say RDM is a melee mage then skimp on the melee gear. BLU is a melee mage and their gear options are more balanced than ours are.

[Demon6324236]

Point being that Athos and Toci's aren't for RDM. We aren't setup for being good at Crit WS. They aren't going to put us on Athos because we can't spare the inventory. I used to carry around an Almace and an A. Harness. It was inventory -1 gear. You don't have to carry around a bunch of fail DEX gear that is going to clog your inventory because you only use it for WS. CDC is junk on RDM outside of Aby and it always will be.My problem isn't so much about CDC. My problem is more about what gear we get overall, simple TP gear we fall behind on. We have much worse gear for TPing than a BLU imo, Oce/Toci's are examples of that, I'm not saying just for CDC. Oce/Toci's is alot of multi-attack & Attack/Acc in a set together that also gives amazing haste. Twilight Belt is a belt with the 2nd most haste in the game for any job outside of MNK, however BLU was put on it, while RDM is left out, not to mention the Double Attack on it which helps as well.


RDM has all the WS gear they need to put out good WS numbers with Requiescat. Furthermore, we are the best at it. It's a multi-hit WS with a 100% MND modifier. If you're a RDM and you don't use Req already, you need to start. Req was specifically made for us by SE. No one else comes close to us on it because of what we can wear, which is absurd amounts of MND gear. It is 5 hits, with off hand means you have 6 and you can have 2 potential extra swings which are provided by Temper. That's an 8 hit WS waiting to happen, and it happens all the time for me. Wear a Soil Gorget and Belt and jam on as much MND gear as you can find and go to town. It's that simple.Yes, req is good, however to use it I need TP, and I need Haste & Multi-hit gear to get it faster, not to mention Accuracy so I can actually hit the mobs, problem is that BLU gets good gear for this while my RDM is left out of the loop.


If you still love your Almace, please play PLD or BLU if you want to be good with it. You will do much better with it than you will on RDM. SE has no interest in making an Almace RDM the best RDM can be. You use an Excalibur, just like in every other FF game.As it has been said before, in other FF games BLU is more of a cloth armor kind of job, and RDM is more on the heavier side between the 2 of them. This game turns that on its head and does it the other way most of the time so I have to say that past games have little relevance in this topic.


And if you want to use CDC go for it too, but don't expect SE to support it, because they clearly don't. The best you're going to do is spend all of your expansion gear on WS pieces for RDM and waste more inventory space on WS. I get that CDC could be better than Req if we had the gear, but they clearly aren't giving it to us and they did give us a more than viable alternative that saves us a ton of inventory space.But what about the TP!?

Clear way to say it, BLU gets good haste pieces from its AF3+2, Head(6) Body(3) and Legs(4). RDM gets no haste in its AF3+2, alot of mage gear, but 0 Haste. Teal & Pink sets, BLU gets both, RDM gets Teal. Teal is all magic stats, with no melee stats at all, while Pink has haste, STP, Acc, Double Attack, and so on, it has melee stats. A BLU with just this basic gear can actually choose between magic stats and melee stats, RDM can not. This has nothing to do with Crit WSs, or with Almace, or with anything of that sort, it has to do with TPing and just gear in itself. Thaumas, a set with Haste on nearly every piece of it, Fast Cast on its hands, Multi-hits of every kind on its body, yet BLU is on it, while RDM gets the mage gear. Enif, Shedir, & Adhara gear, 3 of the 4 sets from Neo-Legion. The list goes on and on, I shouldn't have to keep saying it. The point I am trying to make is not that BLU has tons of gear for WS, its that it has a ton of gear for melee in general! It has alot for magic as well, but its melee gear is the thing that annoys me and that I want to have, rather than 1 hybrid getting lovely amazing melee gear while the other gets scraps.


TL;DR You get to hit things with Galaxies. It's a no-brainer.In other words you missed what I am wanting and what my point was. I would like WS gear yes, but thats not the main thing I even want. RDM has alot of ways to get to capped haste, but alot of pieces have alot of worthless stats on them as well. Shedir body is good for melee but you cant help but notice the magic stats on it that could otherwise be Double Attack or STP and make it over all better, while bodies for BLU exist with those stats! You are right so far as WSs go, but so far as TP gear... no.

[Nawesemo]

/facepalm A rdm wants to play blu... got it.

[ManaKing]

I don't care about teal and pink because everyone got past that. It's the end for RDM that matters and our end TPing sets don't suck.

The set I posted is 15 hits between WSs. It is +107 attack, +20 STR, +5 sword skill, +35 accuracy, and 22 Store TP.

You seem to only see what we don't have and neglect what we do. RDM has options, options most RDM will never actually try out because it's too hard or some other pathetic excuse. If you like what BLU has so much, you should just go play BLU. RDM isn't going to be a top tier DD, ever. It's going to be good with the best gear they can get. You will never rival 2H DD damage. If I have to explain why, then you don't know RDM, much less a lot of other things in this game.

Our TP set is good, not the best. Our Req Set is the best in the game. Our CDC set is poor. In essence, our melee is fine, so long as we get decent gear updates. Funny things about your beloved BLU, it's on the same Salvage gear as RDM, so SE is going to have to get extremely discriminatory to stop us from getting the same melee benefits as BLU. They might get better magic benefits from the set, but that's about it.

[Demon6324236]

Whatever, pointless talking to either of you I guess. I know the gear for RDM, I have built good sets for RDM, and I have been after similar gear (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/260962) for RDM, but that doesn't mean I cant still find it stupid that the other Hybrid-mage has access to all of this gear, and alot of RDM's gear, while we get little in the same manor. But as I said, its pointless, you have the mind set that RDM is good as it is, well, its ok, I said that, I still think it could do better and that it should be treated as the other is in terms of alot of gear. Being past Teal & Pink, we are in some ways and not in others, its the same ideal passed down to other gear sets like Shedir, where RDM gets 1 part of it, but BLU gets RDM's part, and another that RDM doesn't get.

As for wanting to play BLU, no I actually hate BLU, I use it as a proc job for VW parties, thats about the extent I leveled the job for. I play RDM because I like the job, I just hate the idea of the other job getting more than it does when they should be close to the same, the main power BLU should get in being different is their spells, which they are vastly different in my opinion.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

/facepalm A rdm wants to play blu... got it.

Now that's a new level of.....

Asking for better gear choices != Want to play as BLU. It makes more sense for RDM to get certain (light) armour than BLU who have since first entry into the realm of FF have only been able to wear CLOTH.

Until the end of time I'll never understand why people that only play other jobs enter a thread, and post a message just to ultimately troll, it's sad, along with pathetic.

[Calatilla]

/facepalm A rdm wants to play blu... got it.
Just because RDM`s want to boost their melee potential doesn't mean they want to emulate BLU. BLU gear choices are balanced between their melee and mage side they have good choices for both sides, RDM doesn't. All we're asking for is a little more consistency in gear choices. They gave us a sword with very little gear to take advantage of it, SE stated before the empyrean armour was introduced that they wanted RDM to able to support the party from the front lines then went and slapped mage only stats on their AF3.

And why is it every time someone mentions RDM melee people always throw the "you`ll never be in the same class as 2-handers" I think this is pretty damn obvious, that isn't what we're asking for, the gap between melee/mage hybrid classes is way too big, we just want that gap closed slightly.

[Nawesemo]

Lol I have more of a complaint against schs access to mab, than rdm does about hitting things on par with dd. Deal with it. Or yeah retire the rdm and play a job that makes you happy. U trollin your own argument to oblivion. More gear for rdm to dd= zomg rdm again, and it took 24 levels to get others on par or where they should have been. Blu overpowered, but rdm dd/melee fine WHEN they're supposed to... read:not doing anything important otherwise "hey rdm!! Where's my refresh/haste/phalanx sucka fish. And that is just the way it is. You wanna dd... I wanna one shot level 85 nms, want in one hand.......

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Lol I have more of a complaint against schs access to mab, than rdm does about hitting things on par with dd. Deal with it. Or yeah retire the rdm and play a job that makes you happy. U trollin your own argument to oblivion. More gear for rdm to dd= zomg rdm again, and it took 24 levels to get others on par or where they should have been. Blu overpowered, but rdm dd/melee fine WHEN they're supposed to... read:not doing anything important otherwise "hey rdm!! Where's my refresh/haste/phalanx sucka fish. And that is just the way it is. You wanna dd... I wanna one shot level 85 nms, want in one hand.......

This has little to no relevance to the topic at hand. This is to do with improving RDM, not SCH, or a reason why "because you said so" RDM should not be improved.

[Nawesemo]

Neither does any of jealousy over Blu, you made your case for us to,read, and comment on, your just refusing to hear what were saying, ....group thinkish... You made up your mind, but to few that don't see eye to eye with you, "you just don't understand", I'm starting to think its you who don't... S.e strives for balance in an unbalancable world..... What you want pees all over alot of other jobs.... You want to kill stuff faster. Rdm doesn't do that.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Neither does any of jealousy over Blu, you made your case for us to,read, and comment on, your just refusing to hear what were saying, ....group thinkish... You made up your mind, but to few that don't see eye to eye with you, "you just don't understand", I'm starting to think its you who don't... S.e strives for balance in an unbalancable world..... What you want pees all over alot of other jobs.... You want to kill stuff faster. Rdm doesn't do that.

On the contrary, people here are making SUGGESTIONS, such as adding RDM back onto the armour they used to get before they added BLU and broke their own lore.

You're coming in without reading anything anyone else is posting, and just seeing "BLU .... DD Must mean RDM wants to DD like a WAR......." Which is just plain and simply wrong.

RDM and BLU equipment wise should basically be the same, with BLU's spells setting them apart, this is not the case due to SE removing RDM from gear they used to have. What people are asking for is to be put back on said gear, which you'd know if you actually read the posts.

That said, you need clarity in your posts and far less random ........ that neither make sense, nor make your posting clearer only far harder to read.

[Nawesemo]

:/ rdm = fast cast, buku enfeebling, en spells, wide open spell list, bar spells, convert, temper, phalanx, refresh other party members phalanx other party members, moderate dd ability..

And you want it to hit stuff harder/faster..... /em rdm breaks.


I get it, I don't agree with it. No other job does those things above better, so I suggest using them better (save Whm bar spell lines)

[Calatilla]

:/ rdm = fast cast, buku enfeebling, en spells, wide open spell list, bar spells, convert, temper, phalanx, refresh other party members phalanx other party members, moderate dd ability..

And you want it to hit stuff harder/faster..... /em rdm breaks.


I get it, I don't agree with it. No other job does those things above better, so I sugest using them better (save Whm bar spell lines)

Everyone has fast cast, enfeebling is dead in the current content of the game, enspells do little to improve our melee output, we only get self cast barspells, every mage has convert if they sub /rdm not that its even needed, Temper is a start but it still doesn't fix anything, Phalanx, again self cast only unless /sch phalanx 2 isnt worth the merits. Who needs refresh these days? And jobs like blm, whm or sch would sub /rdm and have refresh anyway.

Everything you say RDM has, nobody needs so your argument is invalid.

Edit: Also, we don't have any spells nobody else has, other than temper. Which we can only cast on ourselves.

[Nawesemo]

Sooooo, you don't like to play rdm? It's not going to evvvver kill things like a (insert dd here) without insulting a lot of other jobs, phalanx 2, bio 3, dia 3 , slow 2, gain line....lol....w/e man. Use your tools better.

[Calatilla]

It's not that I don't like to play RDM, its more a case of why do I need to. Every other job can do what RDM can do better than RDM can. Enfeebling? whm, sch and blm can do just as good as RDM.

I already said Phalanx 2 was a waste of merits, bio III is ok if u wanna spend a week dot kiting something. Dia III is good in zergs but who invites a RDM to a zerg fest? slow 2 is good yes, if the mob isn't immune to it. Gain spells...self target spells as I said.

All these are great tools for soloing, which is pretty much all that RDM has left, so why not make solo'ing less of a chore by increasing RDM's melee output a bit.

I haven't used my RDM since just after abyssea release because nobody wants it. All RDM has left is it's melee, which is lacking. And you just keep repeating yourself "WE'RE NOT ASKING TO BE COMPARABLE TO A DD!" RDM melee needs a boost, nothing major just enough so it doesn't suck.

You say RDM would insult other jobs by increasing its DD slightly? Yet we're not insulted by every other mage class taking everything from us which has effectively killed anything the job may have had?

[Nawesemo]

For the glory of the empire!!!! So that the people killing the mob survive, have less trouble killing whatever mob, so the e peen dd can go,"zomg!!!". Just a little longer, there is little glory for rdm these days, but whose to say the jack of all trades should have ever.... Rdm is fine, does what it does well, and still "can" do the impossible, just will take as much as it used to..... It isn't a dd.

[Calatilla]

Does it well, trouble is, everyone else does it better. And technically all jobs are DD`s, just because you don't wield a weapon doesn't mean you can't deal damage. But that's beside the point. Enhancing RDM`s melee wont hurt any other jobs in the slightest and it's hardly game breaking so I don't see what the problem is.

[tyrantsyn]

Sooooo, you don't like to play rdm? It's not going to evvvver kill things like a (insert dd here) without insulting a lot of other jobs, phalanx 2, bio 3, dia 3 , slow 2, gain line....lol....w/e man. Use your tools better.

You just don't get it. All you see is ppl crying for more gear and fail to see what is actually being said. And in that you just betray how close minded you are to what's being discussed. It's obvious from the tone in your post that you need attention. And I'm sure you'll find plenty of that here, posting that way in the RDM thread's. Because most of the ppl here are rabid from neglect and doesn't take much to set them off. This is an age old debate, and so is your side of the story. Give it a rest and go make an anti thread if this idea drive's your passion so much. I'm sure it'll take off.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Wow is an understatement I think.


You just don't get it. All you see is ppl crying for more gear and fail to see what is actually being said. And in that you just betray how close minded you are to what's being discussed. It's obvious from the tone in your post that you need attention. And I'm sure you'll find plenty of that here, posting that way in the RDM thread's. Because most of the ppl here are rabid from neglect and doesn't take much to set them off. This is an age old debate, and so is your side of the story. Give it a rest and go make an anti thread if this idea drive's your passion so much. I'm sure it'll take off.

indeed, I don't mind but that kind of ignorance derails topics and ends up getting them ignored.

[Nawesemo]

Me neither!!!! Other than the Q.Q'ing about gear rdm cant wear and irreversable me rdm hear me roar of the days past attitudes, rdm played well makes noise, rdm doing what a rdm shouldn't, yeah, your going to get sub par results.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Me neither!!!! Other than the Q.Q'ing about gear rdm cant wear and irreversable me rdm hear me roar of the days past attitudes, rdm played well makes noise, rdm doing what a rdm shouldn't, yeah, your going to get sub par results.

Now your trolling is getting annoying and boring at the same time, bravo!

Can't you go elsewhere now.

[Nawesemo]

O.o who's trolling who here? I said what I said and you poke at me and not the fact that rdm can do just fine in the dd factory, and slap on the blinders and keep on insisting you got Skrewed..... Whatever, the good Rdms know what they can do given their limits and im sure your one of em, but what you want is about as silly as wars being upset they have no native haste.... And them eloquently asking for it and getting very defensive when they're told, that's a goofy idea. When do i get my l33T ONLY Pass I wanna be irrational and tell people to go away too.... ; ;

[Tamarsamar]

*sigh*

Guys, Internet 101: don't feed the trolls.

I seriously would've expected you guys to know better than to keep feeding for two pages continuously.

As thread OP, may I beseech the mods to not lock this thread, but to remove all of Nawesemo's quite destructive posts from it?

[Nawesemo]

*sigh, net 102 never disagree with anyone because after the in group feels threatened, they'll all throw down the troll card.. sound about right? Rdm again is geared more towards a mage support Hybrid, Blu its opposite, like a Whm to a Blm, a Sch to a dnc.... And bottom line, yall want to do what what your opposite does better than you. We all make these trades. but me saying that is "zomg troooooolllll" he dont agree DELETE HIM!!!!! Lol. Brillliant.

[tyrantsyn]

/facepalm A rdm wants to play blu... got it.


O.o who's trolling who here? I said what I said and you poke at me and not the fact that rdm can do just fine in the dd factory, and slap on the blinders and keep on insisting you got Skrewed..... Whatever, the good Rdms know what they can do given their limits and im sure your one of em, but what you want is about as silly as wars being upset they have no native haste.... And them eloquently asking for it and getting very defensive when they're told, that's a goofy idea. When do i get my l33T ONLY Pass I wanna be irrational and tell people to go away too.... ; ;
This is the attitude you came in here with lol. Which goes to show you know even less than what's going on in these forum's. You don't even understand when you've posted something that's going to get other's fired up and upset with you. Your clueless.

[Nawesemo]

Meh, w/e floats your boat, trolling me won't change how s.e. designed rdm, its pretty clear to me at least, some accept their a duck, others wandering around babbling about how they hate the goose, and the swans get more attention....but in the end strive to be the best duck they can.... En spell up, throw together the best you can and go put in work, its still not going to get rdm into front line dd slots on anything meaningful, rdm has its place, you exploit its strengths, or ..... Yeah, hate the goose. Either way, better gear isn't going to make you happier, its just going to enrage you more over how its not good enough, ......love your rdm, be a rdm, stop wanting to be a swan. Or not, my attitude ..... Lol if you only knew.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

This is the attitude you came in here with lol. Which goes to show you know even less than what's going on in these forum's. You don't even understand when you've posted something that's going to get other's fired up and upset with you. Your clueless.

Block them and save the hassle. Evidentally they don't know what a troll is, or are just playing (I hope, they're playing) dumb.

Also Report him for going off topic, it's against the rules after all, let the mods deal with him.

On topic:

I genuinely hope the new guy takes a good hard look at RDM like the majority of people both on the English and Japanese forums asked, instead of just looking at what they gave RDM and "thinking (incorrectly)" it's over-powered rather than the truth.

[Nawesemo]

That's funny, considering aside from your edit, I'm the only one continuously writing about rdm.

[Demon6324236]

A very simple way to tell you how this would not break balance. RDM getting some of BLU's gear for melee does not change the fact RDM has no native Dual Wield, meaning for good damage it needs to be /DNC or /NIN. BLU on the other hand can get a ton of traits from spells set, now this includes Dual Wield(upto III, same level as /NIN), Attack Bonus, Accuracy Bonus, Store TP, Double Attack, Triple Attack, Zanshin, and with all of this to choose from if they wish, they can also go with /WAR, giving Berserk, a massive boost to attack. RDM even with BLU's melee gear would be weaker than a BLU in traits and subjob options. It would not be unbalancing because of this, RDM's melee would still be weaker a BLU's melee would still be more open and stronger if set for it.

You keep saying we want to super DD, no, I want to be closer to a BLU in terms of damage with a sword. Do I want to play BLU? No, does it mean I want to play BLU? No, they are completely different jobs, changing RDM to have better melee gear more on par with BLU does not mean RDM = BLU or that I want to play BLU instead. I simply look at my gear, look at my abilities, and wish to see mine grow closer to the job that is like RDM, a hybrid. You keep saying that it will break balance or that RDM would be to powerful, but the truth is, we would just be stronger than now, and weaker than a BLU focusing on melee.

You know why people are saying your a troll? Not because people disagree with you, and want you gone. Its because every time you post you say something that comes across as "I saw your words, but didn't actually understand them, so instead I will just tell you its unbalanced and would be terrible if this were done!" you keep saying the same BS that we apparently want, but we say we don't, like DDing better than a WAR, which unless I missed something and RDM's DD power is right behind a WAR's, giving RDM some of BLU's gear isn't going to magically put RDM past WAR and make RDM the best DD in the game.

[Nawesemo]

Fair enough, I do think rdm melees fine, can do enough dmg with what is at their disposal, and that using blu as a notch to reach, or as comparison is just not good enough reason to add to an otherwise very adaptable job. The good things blu does have are seriously countered by their limited spell selection, seting them etc..... Rdm suffers none of that. We disagree. Np there. The gap was never there though. Rdm gear adding to a Rdms survivablity , damage in my opinion would put rdm on hhe Omg solo level they once had, and I think, yall just want it back.

[Ophannus]

To an extent, RDM's DD potential is still good compared to other mages. I think that's where SE is content with leaving RDM for damage dealing.

Mage melee hierarchy
BLU(Thaumas, A- skill, native DW3 and Triple Attack,self haste,Almace)
RDM(Almace,20% DA from Temper,self haste, enspells,gain-str, dia III)
BRD(Twashtar/Mandau, Hecatomb gear,evisceration/exenterator,augmented sky gear,marches,)
WHM(Mjollnir, decent haste gear,auspice,hexa strike,boost-str, dia II)
BLM(Only putting them above SCH and SMN cuz they can use daggers and evisceration)
SMN(Avatar Favors can give good melee bonuses, Shattersoul is great)
SCH(Self SC with their spells, Firestorm, Shattersoul)

So when it comes to mages, RDM is one of the best meleers, it's just that when you compare us to dedicated melees, we're terrible, which makes sense cuz we can also cure, debuff and nuke whereas melees specialize in melee.

Actually BRD could potentially out damage RDM in pure melee just because of gear selection(They can evisceration/exenterator with hecatomb/genbu/seiryu gear and gets plenty of other haste gear and DW from Kirin's Osode) and give themselves close to capped magic haste too.

[ManaKing]

Wow you guys are still on this and you a beating a guy up for 2 pages because he makes the point 'that just because BLU has something doesn't mean that RDM should have it too'.

Well guess what, he's right. BLU isn't RDM, nor does it play like RDM. Duh. You guys even said that. You're comparing apples to oranges and saying that because oranges prevent scurvy, so should apples. Well too bad, they don't. If you want RDM to play like BLU, gear like BLU, or get favored like BLU, THEN TOO BAD. IT'S NOT BLU. IT'S RDM.

BLU has an awesome bag of tricks that is pretty consistently described as over powered for a 1 Hander. It is significantly stronger than almost every other 1 Hander. RDM is pretty well balanced for a 1 Hander. 1 Handers are in a bad spot as a generalization. That is the problem. If they ever buff 1 Handers, they will have to nerf BLU.

RDM has a bag of tricks too. But instead of enjoying the more recent improvements over gear for WS and TP, you point at BLU and get jealous. STOP IT. It's sad and makes you looks foolish. RDM has spells to enhance it's potential. If you want RDM to be better and actually be a RDM then it needs more enhancing magic. I'm much happier to have Temper than BLU gear. You don't hear BLU talking about not having Temper or an Excalibur. And if you do, then they are idiots, because those are aren't their toys.

Lusting for gear, when gear can change all the time is foolish. Temper is here to stay. Gains are here to stay. BLU gets some new spells constantly and gear. Have fun changing things out all the time and not being able to use all of your spells. No thanks, that's not my character and I have no interest in playing that job.

You can TP in almost 50% double attack. Almost no one else can do that. WARs aren't crying that they don't get temper, because it wouldn't make any sense for them to have magic. Appreciate what you have. Diversity. If you want to be a damage specialist, don't play the generalist.

I'm still of the opinion that our Melee is fine for a 1 Hander. 1 Hander damage isn't ok, but that is a different subject. Our gear is good, not the best, because we aren't the best and our gear is the reason we aren't. It makes sense. Our Sore Spot is our lack of new magic, nuking potency, and job traits/abilities. If you want to tell me that we should get new gear that adds a small amount of triple attack to Temper, then I'm all for it. But crying over a Thaumas Coat is not something I'll shed tears for. Please compare RDM at 85~90 VS lvl 99. Appreciate it.

[CapriciousOne]

O.o who's trolling who here? I said what I said and you poke at me and not the fact that rdm can do just fine in the dd factory, and slap on the blinders and keep on insisting you got Skrewed..... Whatever, the good Rdms know what they can do given their limits and im sure your one of em, but what you want is about as silly as wars being upset they have no native haste.... And them eloquently asking for it and getting very defensive when they're told, that's a goofy idea. When do i get my l33T ONLY Pass I wanna be irrational and tell people to go away too.... ; ;

LMFAO personally I am lost and dont follow anythng he saying to be honest. I think he talking to or about me but I dont see how anything he is saying appliles to anything I said nor do I really care to be honest. All jobs have limitations and the choice of subjobs can improve upon those limitations to some degree. Personally blue mage has somethings I like that I think can benefit RDM weaknesses from my standpoint one being the defense that gear gives kind of sucks even with protect V. Sure I can always level and go PLD if I really want to but then I would lose some of the abilities of RDM like tier I enspells since I dual wield alot and tend to use the element the mob is typically weak to (enaero against Anticans for instance). I personally think that it would cool to use the combo of Protect V/Phalanx I or II/Cocoon/Fish Mithkabobs but there are other combos as well. If I want to play blue I will level blu to 99 since i'm about halfway there anyway with 41blu atm anyway and intend to 99 that as well.

I know it may be hard for somebody of your limited intelligence to understand but a basic rdm is pretty decent overall even with out subjobs in comparison to most other jobs but RDM to me has far more flexibility as a base job than most others despite it never really has been the best at anything and really wasnt meant to be beyond enfeebling and enhancing yet and still is more than competent and capable to stand in and support the specialist if they should ever fall in battle until they are back on their feet again. In any case I plan on bringing PLD/BLU/RDM all to 99 at some point so i can mix it up a bit and maybe even go RDM/PLD so i can make use of the lower tier Defense Bonus traits of Paladin which would be useful in certain situations where I needed to solo battlefields with multiple mobs that werent particularly strong as far as attack and didnt feel were threatening enough to warrant /blm with sleepga or were dark based mobs that were very resistant to sleep. Again people of your level intelligence probably dont know anything about that kind of stuff to worry about it anyway.

[Scuro]

The problem with RDM.... is that they want to be DD's, when they should be back line, and because there are so many trying to push it, no original good ideas are coming out to secure its future as a USEFUL job. So in short, if your looking for the problem, its 95% of the posters in the RDM forums.

[SNK]

To me RDM is just a dead job. What with the stuff that's out there now, RDM is pretty much forever in a niche box.

[Afania]

It's not that I don't like to play RDM, its more a case of why do I need to. Every other job can do what RDM can do better than RDM can. Enfeebling? whm, sch and blm can do just as good as RDM.

I already said Phalanx 2 was a waste of merits, bio III is ok if u wanna spend a week dot kiting something. Dia III is good in zergs but who invites a RDM to a zerg fest? slow 2 is good yes, if the mob isn't immune to it. Gain spells...self target spells as I said.



I found RDM pretty good for legion, you can dia 3 every NM, and CS stun sandworm/wave 2 ironclad in Mul(which makes both NM A LOT less annoying to deal with). As long as NM isn't immune to stun, CS stun works as extra PD, except RDM can also offer dia 3 and better cure+refresh2 than another SMN. If 2hr not up, RDM can also toss extra stun for TP move. 4 SMN 1 RDM brings more advantage to the ally than 5 SMN 0 RDM, and you still get safe protection on 5 NMs total.

I know some group actually take RDM to legion over WHM. IMO, going to solo/melee route is just a waste when we have enough solo/melee jobs, they should make more event like legion, where you need stun/heal/refresh/dia and everything.

[tyrantsyn]

Block them and save the hassle. Evidentally they don't know what a troll is, or are just playing (I hope, they're playing) dumb.

Also Report him for going off topic, it's against the rules after all, let the mods deal with him.

On topic:

I genuinely hope the new guy takes a good hard look at RDM like the majority of people both on the English and Japanese forums asked, instead of just looking at what they gave RDM and "thinking (incorrectly)" it's over-powered rather than the truth.

Was the first thing I did actually.


Wow you guys are still on this and you a beating a guy up for 2 pages because he makes the point 'that just because BLU has something doesn't mean that RDM should have it too'.

If the guy is passionate about what he had to say, he could have worded it better. Starting anything with /facepalm is just bad idea, especially in the RDM thread's. A lot off ppl here feel ignore and neglected and don't need that. You and I both know even if his point is valid there's better way's of expressing it than how he did. Normally I leave these kind of thing's alone. This time tho I just felt like I needed to speak up.

[ManaKing]

If the guy is passionate about what he had to say, he could have worded it better. Starting anything with /facepalm is just bad idea, especially in the RDM thread's. A lot off ppl here feel ignore and neglected and don't need that. You and I both know even if his point is valid there's better way's of expressing it than how he did. Normally I leave these kind of thing's alone. This time tho I just felt like I needed to speak up.

Ok you win that one. Valid point and thumbs up.

I'm still on RDM 80% of the time, I still melee most of the time, and I take it to end game events that apparently we never get invites to. RDM has problems, but they aren't as cheap as some of the arguments that have been brought up here. Complaining about melee gear is a misdirection from the actual issues and I want everyone to know that.

[tyrantsyn]

My RDM is in moth ball's, I still love the job keep up on the gear and have fond memories of it. But abyssea kind of kill it for me. Which lead me to making a Ukon and switching over to WAR almost full time.

I see your point on melee and unlike the other guy you give a much better explanation about your thought's on the situation. And while I agree that when it come's to melee vs the bigger picture on RDM, there are more important thing's to get fix. But that's not what this thread is about. We have other thread's dedicated to those problem's and most here are as passionate about those issue's as they are about getting RDM on more melee gear. Misdirection? nah, it's just another aspect of the job ppl want attention too.
:p

[ManaKing]

My point is we don't need to be BLU to be good. We can be RDM and be good and the gear issue isn't really an issue so long as they keep putting out gear that we can actually use.

This game isn't fair, but that's not a reason to believe you deserve something just because someone else gets it. You deserve it because it makes sense and makes your job actually better. A Thaumus Coat is cool and all, but I would rather get something that is actually tailored to RDM rather than any DD in the game.

I'd rather see a Haste body that increases Enspell damage or adds Affinity, which by association would increase enspell damage. How about an affect that makes Double Attacks increase Enspell damage significantly? How about Enpsells Augmenting Attack and Accuracy by the amount of damage your enspells are doing.

RDM doesn't need to steal BLU's thunder, it needs it's own thunder.

[Aethon]

New poster here so don't fire at me right away just because of that. I love RDM. I have played almost no other class since i started leveling it 2 months after i started playing in '05. Lots of jobs need some love from the FFXI staff but rdm of course holds a special /vested interest for me.
I wish everyone would stop the RDM/BLU comparison. They are both hybrids but in different fashions. RDM is a full hybrid having access to all spells and combat abilities at all times. BLU is a situational hybrid that has to limit its spell list to fully maximize it's melee or mage capabilities and go for the best set of job traits.
Think of like it school. Blu can get some A grades but other areas have to fall behind to do so. Not all and not by much but still some areas do suffer. RDM is a solid B student doing all things well but not making the honor roll.
What I've noticed as a melee loving RDM is we are getting kinda left behind in P.E. unless we want to really pull out the stops and sacrifice everything for it.
My wife plays DRG/SAM and we like to duo a lot. I always try to joke and out DD her but we know it'll never happen nor do i think i should. I WOULD like to keep pace a little more with her though. When i have to have a pure melee set with no mage enhancing abilities and dual-weilding so i can hit 4-6 times in a round to still never have a mob look at me.... is a little disheartening.
Quick recap/ tl;dr - 1. Rdm is not BLU. Blu makes sacrifices to be better in some areas while weaker in others. RDM should be all things out of the box. 2. RDM just needs a little melee loving to make it what the job is meant to be.
P.S. to those "Go be BLU then" people... spell farming for hours on end? No thanks. I'll stick to buying them like i have for years and keep playing the only class i love.

[saevel]

Quick recap/ tl;dr - 1. Rdm is not BLU. Blu makes sacrifices to be better in some areas while weaker in others. RDM should be all things out of the box. 2. RDM just needs a little melee loving to make it what the job is meant to be.
P.S. to those "Go be BLU then" people... spell farming for hours on end? No thanks. I'll stick to buying them like i have for years and keep playing the only class i love.

As someone with a fully blinged out BLU and RDM (melee and mage varieties) I'm able to compare then two because they both fill the exact same position. If you need pure damage you bring one of the specialist melees, if you need pure healing / support / crowd control then you bring one of those guys. RDM / BLU (melee varieties) are for when you need damage, support and crowd control. In this regard BLU stomps all over RDM, picks it up dusts it off then stomps all over it again. This is mostly due to SE showing BLU lots of love in both the damage and support departments while completely ignoring RDM.

Ex:
Melee BLU (has TA / DWIII natively thus can go /WAR for bergressor / DA / ABI) access to much better WS's and gear selection. Can self SC and use CA and / or Efflux to land 2~3K+ physical damage spells of whatever damage type is needed. Can self Haste / Refresh

Melee RDM (must go /NIN to contribute meaningful damage), limited access to WS's without Almace, limited and restrictive melee and WS gear options. Tons of self buff mitigate this penalty somewhat. Can nuke but bad time vs damage ratio.

Support BLU (while being /WAR) M.Fruit is a cheap cure IV, P.Embrace is a more expensive backup cure that buffs people's attack. White Wind is Curaga III~IV basically. WoP aoe Erase (BY FAR THE MOST IMPORTANT SUPPORT SPELL). Stun spam if needed (HB / SL / TS / WoR). And if all that wasn't enough, BOTH light and dark based aoe CC (Sheep / Flower). Can aoe Haste once per 10m with a 5m haste (longer if merits / gear permits), useful before fights or during NNI.

Support RDM (while being /NIN) Cure III~IV for cures, Regen II for HoT. No status healing and only ST CC's (bind / grav / sleep I / II). 5% More -def then BLU (if they even bother with FR) which is easier to use. Can Haste / Refresh others.

Support RDM (while /SCH) Cure III~IV for cheap cures, Regen II for HoT. Can remove the major status healing but no cheap aoe erase. Haste / Refresh as usual. Slightly better nuking thanks to DA, but still poor when compared to melee.

Seems kinda lop sided huh? Any situation where I could in theory bring a "Melee" RDM I would be better off bringing my BLU, and any situation where I would bring a "Mage" RDM I would be better off bringing my WHM, BLM or SCH. This has left literally zero positions for a RDM to actually exist in FFXI, all they do now is go around making video's while soloing some monster without TH that could better be killed with a group of 3~6 with TH.

Now don't take this as a rant against BLU, I absolutely love my BLU. It's one of the few jobs SE actually got right and hasn't screwed up *yet* (knocks on wood). I believe SE should buff most if not all jobs to the level BLU is at, in usefulness if nothing else. BLU is a shining example of what a "hybrid" job should be, it can deal sufficient quantities of damage to warrant serious discussion (but not as much as the specialists). It can heal enough to warrant inclusion in low man group activities. It can apply enough crowd control to make it a vital asset in any group. And it does all these without stepping on the toes of the specialists jobs. BLU's got enough flexibility that it can assume nearly any position in a group, multiple times while leveling to 75 (in those days when we used to kill colibri) I've main healed partys on BLU (no healer lfp). BLU's only weakness is that because it's not as good as the specialist jobs in any one thing, it's not preferred for big 18 member alliance mega boss fights which are basically Legion and Voidwatch.

So for your comparison, it's more like RDM is the straight C student with the BLU being the A student who is also a starter on the all star football team while playing in band. The RDM is the guy who you hang out with when you got nothing else to do and just shooting the sh1t about the world. The BLU is the guy who you actually want on your school's competitive teams.

[ManaKing]

What RDM can win out on is being consistently tougher than BLU, but we can't tank because of Tranquil Heart. I really wish we could toggle that off.

[Slvr_Stryker]

...wow, you go away for a convention, and massive explosion. Having more or less skimmed through the intelligent bits (basically everything except troll banter), and I...really do have to give a "this is more or less correct" nod in regards to previous posters, *especially* ManaKing. Sometimes it really does help to have someone understand both sides via leveling both sides...again, I've really only leveled RDM to 49, so I only really know about a third of what RDM is really capable of. BLU absolutely *destroys* RDM in the melee department if they're upon equal footing gear-wise. That's likely because of the designs for each job.
And, ultimately, I think that's what's killing RDM; it's because SE is trying *really* hard to keep it within the realm of "jack of all trades, master of none". It's the fact that they try to keep it so that they're *not* the specialists of anything, and trying to keep them within their versatility state that really hinders them, which is bad when so many other jobs are flourishing. Which is why I made the suggestions I made, because then it would have its own little spot as a true versatility specialist, able to be put in anywhere and everywhere without missing a beat, all without giving it complete OP marks like it was in the ToAU side.

[saevel]

What RDM can win out on is being consistently tougher than BLU, but we can't tank because of Tranquil Heart. I really wish we could toggle that off.

Used to be, now BLU has more survival tools, mostly via it's self buffs and stun lock.

SE has gone out of their way to ensure RDM got absolutely nothing that would make it useful. They even trolled us with "Gravity II", a completely useless spell. Then later basically said "well we can't give you anymore new spells cause we need the space for other jobs".

[Kristal]

RDM can't get more unique buffs due to the limits on simultanious magic effects on a character, but that is being addressed by the devs currently.
When that is done though, I could see RDM getting a host of new unique self-only buffs like Temper to mirror those traits of BLU. We might not get a Dual Wield trait, but we could get a Composure-like ability (lasting 2 hours) that gives it or a buff that increases existing Dual Wield (if subbed from NIN or DNC).
Perhaps I'm optimistic here, but maybe that's what Encomium's purpose will be: turn RDM melee in overdrive through the buffs.

[Demon6324236]

Not only that but they refuse to make more room by removing stupidly pointless spells, such as single target Bar-spells. If they would remove some of the worthless spells in the game, then it might be easier for them to add more.

[Demon6324236]

RDM can't get more unique buffs due to the limits on simultanious magic effects on a character, but that is being addressed by the devs currently.
When that is done though, I could see RDM getting a host of new unique self-only buffs like Temper to mirror those traits of BLU. We might not get a Dual Wield trait, but we could get a Composure-like ability (lasting 2 hours) that gives it or a buff that increases existing Dual Wield (if subbed from NIN or DNC).
Perhaps I'm optimistic here, but maybe that's what Encomium's purpose will be: turn RDM melee in overdrive through the buffs.

If they gave RDM a somewhat potent Brave & Faith set of spells as we have talked about in the past, it would be great. That could help RDM get the boost in Attack/Acc we miss out on from having to /NIN or /DNC instead of /WAR, also it would give us the ability to not suck in every way next to a BLM or SCH when nuking. I suppose if thats the case, all hope may not be lost.

[Kristal]

If they gave RDM a somewhat potent Brave & Faith set of spells as we have talked about in the past, it would be great. That could help RDM get the boost in Attack/Acc we miss out on from having to /NIN or /DNC instead of /WAR, also it would give us the ability to not suck in every way next to a BLM or SCH when nuking. I suppose if thats the case, all hope may not be lost.

Encomium was RDM's last best hope for fame. It failed.
But in the year of Adoulin's release, it became something greater.
Our last best hope.. for mediocrity!

[Afania]

As someone with a fully blinged out BLU and RDM (melee and mage varieties) I'm able to compare then two because they both fill the exact same position. If you need pure damage you bring one of the specialist melees, if you need pure healing / support / crowd control then you bring one of those guys. RDM / BLU (melee varieties) are for when you need damage, support and crowd control. In this regard BLU stomps all over RDM, picks it up dusts it off then stomps all over it again. This is mostly due to SE showing BLU lots of love in both the damage and support departments while completely ignoring RDM.

Ex:
Melee BLU (has TA / DWIII natively thus can go /WAR for bergressor / DA / ABI) access to much better WS's and gear selection. Can self SC and use CA and / or Efflux to land 2~3K+ physical damage spells of whatever damage type is needed. Can self Haste / Refresh

Melee RDM (must go /NIN to contribute meaningful damage), limited access to WS's without Almace, limited and restrictive melee and WS gear options. Tons of self buff mitigate this penalty somewhat. Can nuke but bad time vs damage ratio.

Support BLU (while being /WAR) M.Fruit is a cheap cure IV, P.Embrace is a more expensive backup cure that buffs people's attack. White Wind is Curaga III~IV basically. WoP aoe Erase (BY FAR THE MOST IMPORTANT SUPPORT SPELL). Stun spam if needed (HB / SL / TS / WoR). And if all that wasn't enough, BOTH light and dark based aoe CC (Sheep / Flower). Can aoe Haste once per 10m with a 5m haste (longer if merits / gear permits), useful before fights or during NNI.

Support RDM (while being /NIN) Cure III~IV for cures, Regen II for HoT. No status healing and only ST CC's (bind / grav / sleep I / II). 5% More -def then BLU (if they even bother with FR) which is easier to use. Can Haste / Refresh others.

Support RDM (while /SCH) Cure III~IV for cheap cures, Regen II for HoT. Can remove the major status healing but no cheap aoe erase. Haste / Refresh as usual. Slightly better nuking thanks to DA, but still poor when compared to melee.

Seems kinda lop sided huh? Any situation where I could in theory bring a "Melee" RDM I would be better off bringing my BLU, and any situation where I would bring a "Mage" RDM I would be better off bringing my WHM, BLM or SCH. This has left literally zero positions for a RDM to actually exist in FFXI, all they do now is go around making video's while soloing some monster without TH that could better be killed with a group of 3~6 with TH.



This is not true, I know many groups bring RDM over WHM to legion(although I still bring both RDM and WHM to legion) due to RDM offering other aspect WHM doesn't have(CS stun/dia3/refresh2). Although SCH is not skippable due to more stuns and embrava.

BLU's versatility shines in lowman, where RDM shines in legion when versatile mage are needed in an ally and everything is zerged, and rely on cure/stun/def down heavily. Which job has the ability like RDM, that can CS stun when needed, assist cure/stun, refresh2 others, and dia3 everything.

In a standard legion ally setup, (assuming you still keep a WHM to cure instead of RDM)

DDx5 COR SCH x3 BRD PLD THF WHM SMN x4 RDM x1

P.S, some group use 6 SMN, 0 WHM, 1 RDM and 2 SCH instead.

You get 4 PD 1 CS so good protection on 5 NM total. You got dia3+refresh2 and 2 person curing DDs, plus 4 stunners total.
Change that RDM to SMN, you still get protection on 5 NM, but your dia3 down grade to dia2, no refresh 2 for WHM, 3 stunner instead of 4, and only 1 healer in ally(SCH need to focus on stun).

Change RDM to BLU, you get worse stun/def down, and can't cure outside of pt, you can't output melee dmg without PD also.
And BLM isn't used in legion except Hall of An.

Change RDM to 4th SCH, you still don't have dia3/refresh2, and no CS stun either.

Change RDM to 2nd COR or BRD, any 2nd+ COR or BRD doesn't offer much more after 1st unless you need extra reset chance. BRD can sing 3~4 songs and any song after 4th doesn't add much. Doing 4 COR rolls doesn't add a lot more dmg(After chaos/DA roll the only roll left is hunters/regain, which adds very little dmg if acc capped) to melees but it takes 2 more min to do 2 more rolls. As for reset, many groups don't rely on COR reset anymore either.

RDM can also do Impact(which is needed in Mul), although other mages can also cast it, they're often busy with their own task and RDM is the best role to do it. You also need ES for it on some NM, and RDM is the best one to do it since they're subbing BLM already.

Is it possible to "beat" legion with 0 RDM? Probably yes, but it's also possible to beat it with 0 SMN, or MNK x5 instead of Rag DD, or no SCH/BRD/COR at all. Not to mention I tend to use RDM roll in Mul on SCH since Mul mobs resists stun easily, and having RDM in pt helps.


The fact is, having a RDM in legion ally, brings much more to the table than no RDM. Change that RDM to any other job, it doesn't offer much more than having an RDM in ally. It just doesn't.

So there is your RDM's own thunder and room for jack of all trade mage. It's a versatile "mage" that shines in event like legion. Like how BLU is versatile "1h melee" that shines in lowman against EP/DC mobs. They're different, works differently, and shines in different area. You bring BLU to dyna/salvage/nyzul/Abby/old HNM and so on, when you only have 2~3 ppl in pt, and BLU can cover multiple roles when pt size so small. I don't understand why everyone is jealous(?) of BLU, when BLU can't even get into legion ally.

RDM doesn't need more melee ability, it should stay as a mage with unique aspect that you'd need in event such as legion. RDM also covers multiple aspect in ally, stun/cure/CS/dia3/refresh2/impact, and other debuff when PD is down, which works very well in legion. Not to mention 2nd wave ironclad in Mul and 1st wave sandworm in Muru is total dick to deal with without CS.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

RDM can't get more unique buffs due to the limits on simultanious magic effects on a character, but that is being addressed by the devs currently.
When that is done though, I could see RDM getting a host of new unique self-only buffs like Temper to mirror those traits of BLU. We might not get a Dual Wield trait, but we could get a Composure-like ability (lasting 2 hours) that gives it or a buff that increases existing Dual Wield (if subbed from NIN or DNC).
Perhaps I'm optimistic here, but maybe that's what Encomium's purpose will be: turn RDM melee in overdrive through the buffs.

I've never heard this as a reason.

I've heard of:

Limited spell slots, much more important to add rubbish such as Gravity II and a million BLU spells that will never get used because SE either break them or put them on 10 second duration timers (exaggeration)

Limited (5~10?) Recast timers on abilities.

[saevel]

Encomium was RDM's last best hope for fame. It failed.
But in the year of Adoulin's release, it became something greater.
Our last best hope.. for mediocrity!

Absolutely love that show btw.

Would definitely put RDM as the Narns.

[saevel]

RDM can't get more unique buffs due to the limits on simultanious magic effects on a character, but that is being addressed by the devs currently.
When that is done though, I could see RDM getting a host of new unique self-only buffs like Temper to mirror those traits of BLU. We might not get a Dual Wield trait, but we could get a Composure-like ability (lasting 2 hours) that gives it or a buff that increases existing Dual Wield (if subbed from NIN or DNC).
Perhaps I'm optimistic here, but maybe that's what Encomium's purpose will be: turn RDM melee in overdrive through the buffs.

Hmm I think you read SE's announcements wrong. There is no known limit to the simultaneous buffs on a player. Inside voidwatch I've filled all four bars and had buffs that kept being applied just not displayed. Two rolls + six songs + bravers + stalwarts + ascetics + usually stuff + Bergressor / LR / SE / fanatics / regain and RR. Tack on all your screens and your easily past the four line limit yet you can still get more of them on.

SE was talking about a finite amount of spell ID's. Basically every spell in the game has a unique ID number, its a small array in memory. Due to the PS2's dramatics memory limits there are hard caps on how big these arrays can get, this is what is responsible for your inventory limits, spell limits and the reason the auto-translate doesn't have anything new. They need to move beyond making everything compatible with the PS2's system memory in order for this game to go anywhere now.

[tyrantsyn]

My point is we don't need to be BLU to be good. We can be RDM and be good and the gear issue isn't really an issue so long as they keep putting out gear that we can actually use.

This game isn't fair, but that's not a reason to believe you deserve something just because someone else gets it. You deserve it because it makes sense and makes your job actually better. A Thaumus Coat is cool and all, but I would rather get something that is actually tailored to RDM rather than any DD in the game.

I'd rather see a Haste body that increases Enspell damage or adds Affinity, which by association would increase enspell damage. How about an affect that makes Double Attacks increase Enspell damage significantly? How about Enpsells Augmenting Attack and Accuracy by the amount of damage your enspells are doing.

RDM doesn't need to steal BLU's thunder, it needs it's own thunder.

Just to be clear on my end I never said anything about wanting RDM to be like BLU on the front line. Also I very happy with what SE has been doing with adding RDM to gear lately. Brego and Duck set are really nice, and the body off Morta is sweet as well. If anything I would just like to say don't stop adding them to new gear in the future. And yes tailor made gear for RDM would be nice.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Just to be clear on my end I never said anything about wanting RDM to be like BLU on the front line. Also I very happy with what SE has been doing with adding RDM to gear lately. Brego and Duck set are really nice, and the body off Morta is sweet as well. If anything I would just like to say don't stop adding them to new gear in the future. And yes tailor made gear for RDM would be nice.

I would love a special piece for all jobs, like the BlackBelt is for MNK, Aegis/Ochain is for PLD and Gjallarhorn/Daurdabla is for BRD.

[ManaKing]

Just to be clear on my end I never said anything about wanting RDM to be like BLU on the front line. Also I very happy with what SE has been doing with adding RDM to gear lately. Brego and Duck set are really nice, and the body off Morta is sweet as well. If anything I would just like to say don't stop adding them to new gear in the future. And yes tailor made gear for RDM would be nice.

Pip pip and cheerios. Agreed.

[Demon6324236]

I would love a special piece for all jobs, like the BlackBelt is for MNK, Aegis/Ochain is for PLD and Gjallarhorn/Daurdabla is for BRD.

Honestly I think all jobs should have a "Black Belt" not meaning as in the piece of gear itself, but their own version of it. A highly powerful piece of JSE that makes it stand out. I have always seen the Black Belt as something very awesome about MNK, and thought of it as kinda unfair that it is the only job in the game with a piece of gear like that.

[ManaKing]

It's a double edged sword though. Example DRG. Ryunohige or GTF Home. If you make something that good, it should be hard to get. If you make it too hard, you antiquate a job. While DRG's problems stem from Piercing being horrible against a couple of key enemy types, such as Undead, it's still disgustingly powerful when geared to the teeth and played by someone who understands the job. IMHO DRG is awesome and fun, but it lacks that alliance appeal that WAR, DRK, and MNK do. It's still probably the most destructive job in the game, but it has enough draw backs that people prefer a less specialized job.

I think JS gear is a really good idea, because it can easily be balanced....because it's only for 1 job. But it requires the Dev team to accurately capture the important elements of the job and highlight them. The lvl 89 JS weapons are a very good example of this kind of work. Most people are aware of several of these weapons, because they were so dynamic-ly powerful that they were the go-to weapon for people that didn't have empys or relics. The biggest draw back is that when you have to move past these kinds of equipment, if you do (obviously BB has gone nowhere....), then you create a lull which makes progress deceptively hard to evaluate.

My preferred idea for how to overcome that kind of lull, is to allow players to keep their unique toys, even if they move past them. Clearly a Widow Maker is not the best G. Axe, but who wouldn't want to keep the unique affect of increasing their double attack damage permanently? Even though you have to give up your toy, you'll be able to pick it up later and enjoy it's job specific goodness.

There are 2 simple ways to accomplish this. The first is to make those kinds of effects from JS equipment such as the lvl 89 weapons into quested job traits. The second would be to include it as an upgrade to Mythic weapons. Both solutions are potentially very punishing, because you can make the requirements very extreme. In the case of having to acquire a Mythic to begin with is an extremely large task, but considering the current state of Mythics, it wouldn't hurt to give them a boost.

I mentioned Mythics because once again they are Job Specific and every job only has 1. Most Empy and Relics have shared custody by jobs and very few people would be willing to create another of the same prestige weapon just because they wanted to get the most out of it for 2 different jobs. In fact the point of those weapons is that you can use them on multiple jobs and they are still very useful.

[Demon6324236]

In my opinion, Ryunohige is as good of an example as it is bad, all jobs have Mythics, its just one that truly makes a job stand out, the same can be said for a Kenkonken PUP, because with a KKK a PUP is a force to be reckoned with. However Black Belt is just a quested piece of JSE, so I would expect other jobs to get the same kind of thing, with the same kind of difficulty. No 1 Mythic is easier than another, so really I don't think the difficulty with these should be different. Another thing on why this should be done is MNK is getting another more powerful Black Belt with SoA, which means even more powerful of a piece of JSE. But I will agree, SE would have to make them have stats for what the job needs, and thats not always what SE seems to get so well.

[ManaKing]

I think BB is appropriate in the amount of work and reward you get for it. If they would make more of that level items, people would probably appreciate it.

Also, hows that additional affect: wrecks face treating you, because it's awesome.

[tyrantsyn]

Black Belt yes
Brown belt no

I could see a lot of great potential in a item like this for each job. Tho I would probably save content like this for the new expansion.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I see this is a body on that meeble thing on the Test Server.

Vara Brigantine :
HP+35 STR+6 DEX+12 VIT+12 AGI+6 INT+6 MND+6 CHR+6 Attack+14 Ranged Attack+14 "Store TP"+5
WAR, RDM, THF, PLD, DRK, BST, BRD, RNG, SAM, NIN, DRG, BLU, COR, DNC

Decent Chant Du Cygne for RDM?

[Demon6324236]

Oh my god, finally after all this time, a body for RDM which has more DEX than Antares, and some STR... Attack too... I think I'm in love.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That body beats anything else for CDC I think, I just put it in and it was ahead of Kudzu

[tyrantsyn]

I see this is a body on that meeble thing on the Test Server.

Vara Brigantine :
HP+35 STR+6 DEX+12 VIT+12 AGI+6 INT+6 MND+6 CHR+6 Attack+14 Ranged Attack+14 "Store TP"+5
WAR, RDM, THF, PLD, DRK, BST, BRD, RNG, SAM, NIN, DRG, BLU, COR, DNC

Decent Chant Du Cygne for RDM?
That's kind of a whacky piece of gear. Stat's are pretty solid. you omitted def and lvl tho?

[ManaKing]

Probably above average for Req too. Heka's Kalasiris is still probably the winner until you start hitting higher defense mobs.

If it looks fancy, I might wear it as my body piece.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

That's kind of a whacky piece of gear. Stat's are pretty solid. you omitted def and lvl tho?
Vara Brigandine Rare Exclusive
Body
DEF:57 HP+35 STR+6 DEX+12 VIT+12
AGI+6 INT+6 MND+6 CHR+6 Attack+14
Ranged Attack+14 "Store TP"+5
Lv99 WAR RDM THF PLD DRK BST BRD RNG SAM NIN DRG BLU COR DNC

Other RDM Stuff:




The only other piece that seems quite nice:

Seidr Cotehardie Rare Exclusive
Body
DEF:53 Magic Accuracy+13
"Magic Attack Bonus"+7
Converts 2% of magic dmg dealt to MP
Lv99 WHM BLM RDM BRD SMN SCH

Source : http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings/page231 & http://juliandev.com/ffxi/TEST2012-09-07/

[saevel]

Body and back piece are interesting. I could see the back piece being useful in situations your not capping accuracy in ~insert obligatory don't-swing-swords-on-hard-sh!t here~.

[Demon6324236]

I was thinking the same thing. Basically its Atheling but with 15 Attack converted into Acc.

[ManaKing]

So essentially, the brigandine is the only thing interesting coming our way. Anyone has pics on it yet?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

So essentially, the brigandine is the only thing interesting coming our way. Anyone has pics on it yet?

pictures? It's that red and white suit thing... This > http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Brigandine

Forgot to mention: There is a Fast Cast neck for all jobs - couldn't see if anyone checked potency.

[Demon6324236]

pictures? It's that red and white suit thing... This > http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Brigandine

Forgot to mention: There is a Fast Cast neck for all jobs - couldn't see if anyone checked potency.

Heres hoping it beats out an Augmented Jeweled Collar~.

[Crimson_Slasher]

I hope the new brigadine isnt as terrible looking as the old one. That said, yeah, i wore one while leveling. Which is exactly why i want the new one to look better.

[ManaKing]

yeah pretty much that's why i wanted pics if they were different

[Daniel_Hatcher]

yeah pretty much that's why i wanted pics if they were different

The icon is the same. No one's posted a picture with it equipped though.

[Babekeke]

Vara Brigandine Rare Exclusive
Body
DEF:57 HP+35 STR+6 DEX+12 VIT+12
AGI+6 INT+6 MND+6 CHR+6 Attack+14
Ranged Attack+14 "Store TP"+5
Lv99 WAR RDM THF PLD DRK BST BRD RNG SAM NIN DRG BLU COR DNC

Other RDM Stuff:




The only other piece that seems quite nice:

Seidr Cotehardie Rare Exclusive
Body
DEF:53 Magic Accuracy+13
"Magic Attack Bonus"+7
Converts 2% of magic dmg dealt to MP
Lv99 WHM BLM RDM BRD SMN SCH

Source : http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings/page231 & http://juliandev.com/ffxi/TEST2012-09-07/

I've added a few more that you left out:

10371: Veikr Pumps Rare Exclusive
Feet
DEF:22 HP+25 MP+25
Enfeebling magic skill +12
Enmity-3 Haste+2%
Lv99 WHM BLM RDM PLD DRK SMN BLU SCH

Not sure if these pumps are a side-grade to other gear RDM cna wear for enfeebling, but extra haste in an enfeeb set with the new enfeeb system can't hurt?

10395: Lasaia Pendant Rare Exclusive
Neck
DEF:7 Magic accuracy+1 Enmity-8
Lv99 WHM BLM RDM BRD SMN BLU SCH

Just in case you need -enmity? could be useful in a main-heal situation.

10443: Bendis's Hairpin Rare Exclusive
Head
HP-50 DEX+10 AGI+10 Evasion+8
Haste+6%
Lv99 All Jobs

Looks like a nice TP/CDC/eva piece. Not sure if RDM can wear better? But certainly almost makes up for not getting to wear oce +1.

11008: Medala Cape Rare Exclusive
Back
DEF:9 "Cure" potency +2%
"Cure" spellcasting time -5% Enmity-2
Lv99 WHM BLM RDM BRD SMN BLU PUP SCH

Not the most potency available in this slot, but cast time and -enmity to boot.

[saevel]

Hairpin would be a CDC or Extenator piece and slight upgrade from Z.tiara. If it had STR, DA or Attack then it would be a decent upgrade but as it stands your looking at 5 acc while giving up 2% haste. The evade isn't really worth it considering RDM's evasion skill (or lack thereof). The brego helm would be a better TP piece.

[ManaKing]

Cure casting time cape is nice because we can cap potency without using a main or offhand now.

I'm not really sure how I feel about that hairpin. 6% haste with some stats seems okish, but it's still in the catagory with the zelus Tiara for me. You better have a really good reason to give up the stats you can get on your head for stats otherwise, because you can cap Haste without it.

[Demon6324236]

So did I miss something or what? I am not familiar with juliandev.com stuff but I saw something I couldn't easily ignore while looking around over there. I looked in the magic section and saw some spells we don't have, but it says we are getting it looks like.


Diaga II - Lowers defense of enemies within area of effect and gradually deals light elemental damage.
MP Cost: 60 Casting Time: 1.75 Recast Delay: 6.25
Target: Enemy / Type: White / Element: Light / Skill: Enfeebling Magic
Jobs: WHM52 RDM45 THIRD1

Diaga III - Lowers defense of enemies within area of effect and gradually deals light elemental damage.
MP Cost: 120 Casting Time: 2.0 Recast Delay: 6.5
Target: Enemy / Type: White / Element: Light / Skill: Enfeebling Magic
Jobs: RDM75 THIRD1

Meteor II - Magic Help Message.
MP Cost: 150 Casting Time: 18.0 Recast Delay: 52.0
Target: Enemy / Type: Black / Element: Light / Skill: Elemental Magic
Jobs: WHM75 BLM75 RDM75 THIRD1

Paralyga - Magic Help Message.
MP Cost: 12 Casting Time: 4.0 Recast Delay: 20.0
Target: Enemy / Type: White / Element: Ice / Skill: Enfeebling Magic
Jobs: WHM61 RDM61 THIRD1

Slowga - Magic Help Message.
MP Cost: 30 Casting Time: 2.5 Recast Delay: 30.0
Target: Enemy / Type: White / Element: Earth / Skill: Enfeebling Magic
Jobs: WHM61 RDM61 THIRD1

Hastega - Magic Help Message.
MP Cost: 80 Casting Time: 4.0 Recast Delay: 30.0
Target: Self Only / Type: White / Element: Wind / Skill: Enhancing Magic
Jobs: WHM61 RDM61 THIRD1

Silencega - Magic Help Message.
MP Cost: 32 Casting Time: 4.0 Recast Delay: 20.0
Target: Enemy / Type: White / Element: Wind / Skill: Enfeebling Magic
Jobs: WHM61 RDM61 THIRD1

Dispelga - Magic Help Message.
MP Cost: 20 Casting Time: 5.0 Recast Delay: 60.0
Target: Enemy / Type: Black / Element: Dark / Skill: Enfeebling Magic
Jobs: RDM61 THIRD1

Blindga - Magic Help Message.
MP Cost: 10 Casting Time: 2.5 Recast Delay: 20.0
Target: Enemy / Type: Black / Element: Dark / Skill: Enfeebling Magic
Jobs: BLM61 RDM61 THIRD1

Bindga - Magic Help Message.
MP Cost: 16 Casting Time: 2.5 Recast Delay: 50.0
Target: Enemy / Type: Black / Element: Ice / Skill: Enfeebling Magic
Jobs: BLM61 RDM61 THIRD1 Just curious because I saw these. Hope it isn't something stupid to ask about. :x

[Daniel_Hatcher]

So did I miss something or what? I am not familiar with juliandev.com stuff but I saw something I couldn't easily ignore while looking around over there. I looked in the magic section and saw some spells we don't have, but it says we are getting it looks like.

Just curious because I saw these. Hope it isn't something stupid to ask about. :x

Been that way since day one, it's for the enemies or something..

[saevel]

Cure casting time cape is nice because we can cap potency without using a main or offhand now.

I'm not really sure how I feel about that hairpin. 6% haste with some stats seems okish, but it's still in the catagory with the zelus Tiara for me. You better have a really good reason to give up the stats you can get on your head for stats otherwise, because you can cap Haste without it.

Not without giving up some really nice stats in other slots. The reason RDM's tend to use Z.Tiara is that it's 8% haste in a single slot that doesn't have any super awesome options. Putting that there means you only need to get 17~18% in other slots, most notable legs, body and feet. Only other head options are Brego Helm and Khthonios Mask, neither of which is particularly that good when compared to feet / legs / body.

The stats on any particular slot doesn't matter, it's the total stats of the build that are important. Also I've been trying to nail a capped haste + 15 Store TP set. At 30% DW and 454 Delay using CDC, you need 15 sTP to hit 100 in 16 hits or 8 attack rounds.

[CapriciousOne]

This is not true, I know many groups bring RDM over WHM to legion(although I still bring both RDM and WHM to legion) due to RDM offering other aspect WHM doesn't have(CS stun/dia3/refresh2). Although SCH is not skippable due to more stuns and embrava.

BLU's versatility shines in lowman, where RDM shines in legion when versatile mage are needed in an ally and everything is zerged, and rely on cure/stun/def down heavily. Which job has the ability like RDM, that can CS stun when needed, assist cure/stun, refresh2 others, and dia3 everything.

In a standard legion ally setup, (assuming you still keep a WHM to cure instead of RDM)

DDx5 COR SCH x3 BRD PLD THF WHM SMN x4 RDM x1

P.S, some group use 6 SMN, 0 WHM, 1 RDM and 2 SCH instead.

You get 4 PD 1 CS so good protection on 5 NM total. You got dia3+refresh2 and 2 person curing DDs, plus 4 stunners total.
Change that RDM to SMN, you still get protection on 5 NM, but your dia3 down grade to dia2, no refresh 2 for WHM, 3 stunner instead of 4, and only 1 healer in ally(SCH need to focus on stun).

Change RDM to BLU, you get worse stun/def down, and can't cure outside of pt, you can't output melee dmg without PD also.
And BLM isn't used in legion except Hall of An.

Change RDM to 4th SCH, you still don't have dia3/refresh2, and no CS stun either.

Change RDM to 2nd COR or BRD, any 2nd+ COR or BRD doesn't offer much more after 1st unless you need extra reset chance. BRD can sing 3~4 songs and any song after 4th doesn't add much. Doing 4 COR rolls doesn't add a lot more dmg(After chaos/DA roll the only roll left is hunters/regain, which adds very little dmg if acc capped) to melees but it takes 2 more min to do 2 more rolls. As for reset, many groups don't rely on COR reset anymore either.

RDM can also do Impact(which is needed in Mul), although other mages can also cast it, they're often busy with their own task and RDM is the best role to do it. You also need ES for it on some NM, and RDM is the best one to do it since they're subbing BLM already.

Is it possible to "beat" legion with 0 RDM? Probably yes, but it's also possible to beat it with 0 SMN, or MNK x5 instead of Rag DD, or no SCH/BRD/COR at all. Not to mention I tend to use RDM roll in Mul on SCH since Mul mobs resists stun easily, and having RDM in pt helps.


The fact is, having a RDM in legion ally, brings much more to the table than no RDM. Change that RDM to any other job, it doesn't offer much more than having an RDM in ally. It just doesn't.

So there is your RDM's own thunder and room for jack of all trade mage. It's a versatile "mage" that shines in event like legion. Like how BLU is versatile "1h melee" that shines in lowman against EP/DC mobs. They're different, works differently, and shines in different area. You bring BLU to dyna/salvage/nyzul/Abby/old HNM and so on, when you only have 2~3 ppl in pt, and BLU can cover multiple roles when pt size so small. I don't understand why everyone is jealous(?) of BLU, when BLU can't even get into legion ally.

RDM doesn't need more melee ability, it should stay as a mage with unique aspect that you'd need in event such as legion. RDM also covers multiple aspect in ally, stun/cure/CS/dia3/refresh2/impact, and other debuff when PD is down, which works very well in legion. Not to mention 2nd wave ironclad in Mul and 1st wave sandworm in Muru is total dick to deal with without CS.

Well I haven't yet gotten around to legion but from reading this post, as well as others, I take most people arent doing Legion and dont care much about it as you apparently do. I also must admit that RDM does seem quite useful in this event as per your description. My only issue is the bolded line where everyone keeps trying pigeon hole RDM as a mage only/ predominately mage job. I wont claim to be a rpg enthusiast of any sorts because these game can be rather boring and monotonous to get most things done, however I've seen/played enough rpg to know that mages arent seen wielding bladed weapons of any sort very often. In any case they are it is typically something light and low damage like a knife/dagger because mages arent typically seen as strong enough to wield much else. In addition though redmage is capable of equipping a staff like a traditional mage. I respect you like the mage aspect of rdm as i admit is handy but can you please stop pigeon-holing it and respect that not everybody always enjoys the mage aspects as much as you do. Thank you for your understanding in advance.

[Demon6324236]

Also I've been trying to nail a capped haste + 15 Store TP set. At 30% DW and 454 Delay using CDC, you need 15 sTP to hit 100 in 16 hits or 8 attack rounds.

This set work? (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/272877)

[ManaKing]

Not without giving up some really nice stats in other slots. The reason RDM's tend to use Z.Tiara is that it's 8% haste in a single slot that doesn't have any super awesome options. Putting that there means you only need to get 17~18% in other slots, most notable legs, body and feet. Only other head options are Brego Helm and Khthonios Mask, neither of which is particularly that good when compared to feet / legs / body.

The stats on any particular slot doesn't matter, it's the total stats of the build that are important. Also I've been trying to nail a capped haste + 15 Store TP set. At 30% DW and 454 Delay using CDC, you need 15 sTP to hit 100 in 16 hits or 8 attack rounds.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/272885

That's a little sloppy, but you have room to work with it. The feet you can change for Eurus and still have your TP goal. Phos Belt and +1 do exist, but you don't need them unless you want to use a body without haste.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/267751

Problem is, you are still looking at the Kudzu Aketon as an option for TPing in. The only way you work that in is with an Ephemeron, a Zelus Tiara, or a Phos Belt being used. I'd go with the Shedir Manteel instead. But then again, I still like Excal over Almace because it can be supported by the gear that already exists for RDM.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/265028

If you want to tell me about how horrible Ephemeron is as an offhand, then I'll just point out it's easy to get over 20 Store TP with it. It's not particularly easy to get, but neither is Crit Damage for CDC.

Without an Ephemeron, RDM sets are a lot harder to put together. If you are using an Excalibur you are already using En-Aero 2 and Paraylzing all the things so your 25% HP proc can go off. No reason your offhand shouldn't have a good additional affect as well.

I don't think Excalibur > Almace, but I do think it is more consistent and I really would rather rely on higher damage and Attack, than trying to gear for Crit on RDM.

[saevel]

Without an Ephemeron, RDM sets are a lot harder to put together. If you are using an Excalibur you are already using En-Aero 2 and Paraylzing all the things so your 25% HP proc can go off. No reason your offhand shouldn't have a good additional affect as well.

This makes no sense, Relics's special stats on exist when their on main hand which is the only place Enspell II's work. Relics and Enspells are pretty much mutually exclusive to each other. As a general rule Eph sucks as a sword, it has a few specialized uses but in general Almace + Str Sword would be a better set. This pretty much forces you to use Zelus tiara to that you have more freedom in all your other slots.

[Neisan_Quetz]

15 stp would be kudzu/vara brigande/rajas/tyrant/brutal unless I'm missing something (vara brigande would also work if it's easier to get than hoping for kudzu drop, or Morta runs dried up on your server)

Fencer's is a close call still... and I can't get the Kthonoios/Shedir combo to win at all

[ManaKing]

This makes no sense, Relics's special stats on exist when their on main hand which is the only place Enspell II's work. Relics and Enspells are pretty much mutually exclusive to each other. As a general rule Eph sucks as a sword, it has a few specialized uses but in general Almace + Str Sword would be a better set. This pretty much forces you to use Zelus tiara to that you have more freedom in all your other slots.

Oh well, that's bit about enspells and relics is wrong. Enspell 1s override ANYTHING. Enspell 2s are actually much lower on the list. The Excalibur proc will go off and override your enspell 2 damage, the rest of the time you get your Enspell 2 damage and the resist lowering.

All I'm saying is that if you like a STR Shikagar that much, you should just make an Excalibur, because that is basically what it is x3 and then you can offhand what you want. My Builds with Excal have over +100 Atk on them. My Almace builds are nowhere close to that because they never incorporated an Ephemeron.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Smh

Even with the entire geode thread in General Str shikargar doesn't stop being the best offhand (bar severe accuracy issues) for most situations you would melee

That and in my case, Almace doubles as being usable on more jobs than Excal would be, and I'd still need a Str Shikargar regardless of which one I would melee with

[ManaKing]

Essentially you are saying, 'I care more about my BLU than my RDM' because you are building the wrong sword because it's convenient. You might also be saying something like, 'I talk about my RDM, but I don't really play it anymore. My BLU on the other hand, oh man I sure do like taking it places.'

Req Blows CDC out of the water in consistency and gear support on RDM. But hey you're BLU can actually use that Almace, so I guess it's good enough to watch your RDM limp around with it.

I would go into how bad your gearing options are without an Ephemeron, but I'm sure you've read enough STR Shikagar comments to not even look at what you can actually gear on RDM.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Ephemeron is a terrible offhand. This does not change based on what main hand you use.

Excal loses the +attack and hidden effect in offhand. Regardless of whether you use Excal or Almace in main hand, Str Shikargar is still your best offhand in most situations.

The difference between 90 Almace and 95 Excal is not as large as you are making it out to be (adding in new Vara Brigande, I have them pretty much even /nin on DC, and Excal 2-5% ahead /dnc). If both are 99 they're pretty close with my sets (Zelus/Kudzu/PhosNQ). If using Vara Brigande for TP Excal pulls ahead by a small amount.

If you're talking about Dynamis farming, then excal pulls ahead since you can't keep up AM, but I don't farm on Rdm in the first place.

[Demon6324236]

The benefit of Ephemeron is you get 3% Haste which allows for a looser build for TPing as you are not limited so much on TP gear. The advantage becomes very useful when stacking alot of Attack, STR, and Double Attack, with the extra space provided. Such as if you are using Ephemeron you can cut out 3% Haste from your build, meaning Eurus' can be taken out, removing -STP and instead you can put in something like Dusk+1, or Ghadhab for the Attack. You can also use Kudzu more comfortably because though it does not give haste it still becomes more easily worked around. As it stands without Phos you are forced into a build of Phasmida/Ninurta's, Zelus, Brego/Alucin, Calmecac/Rubeus, Eurus', which puts you at 25% Haste. With Ephemeron's 3% Haste you are able to use a few more varied pieces with stats that surpass Shikargar's stats in the end, which just like Saeval said, "The stats on any particular slot doesn't matter, it's the total stats of the build that are important" and that is why Ephemeron is good, it helps the overall build rather than just being a good item on own.

STR Shikargar is good for the attack & STR, however if you can make this up with the gear you are able to use thanks to the 3% haste than it loses its effect for the most part and becomes much less useful. The benefit that Ephemeron can not mimic however is in WSs, as you would already be stacking stats as high as you can regardless of the AGI, DMG, TP Drain, or Haste that Ephemeron gives, thus for WSs STR Shikargar is massively better. In TPing however its effects can be mimiced by gear you would use thanks to the 3% Haste on Ephemeron that you would need not worry about any longer.

I would argue that if anything STR Shikargar might be better off with Excalibur and Ephemeron better with Almace simply for the fact that Shikargar with the STR & Attack play more to the benefit of Req & KoR thanks to mods & Req's attack penalty. However both weapons have their merit, and to think either one is the be all end all of offhands seems like a flawed perspective to me because you can not ignore the 3% Haste Ephemeron gives to a TP build, nor the STR/Attack Shikargar gives to a WS build.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Str Shikargar is better for most situations regardless of your main hand (the attack penalty is the only reason req sees a larger benefit, both ws benefit from fstr/attack boost from it). Eurus are unnecessary in the first place even at 25% (visible) haste.

The rest is just :/ There are very few pieces (in terms of equipment slots not main/sub) which even equal the benefits of Shikargar much less surpass it. You can't say fstr/attack provides a benefit to one and then downplay the benefit it gives the other.

EDIT: Eurus is better if you gain a full 1% haste from it, but not if you only get the partial percent from going from 25 (visible) to cap

[saevel]

My head hurts...

Almace beats out Excal in general by a pretty large margin due to ODD. Req barely beats out CDC on weaker targets but loses to bigger things due to it's stupid 20% attack penalty on a job that doesn't have high attack to begin with. Also you can do Req with Almace, you can't do CDC with Xcal.

Eph is a bad weapon, the damage loss from not using STR Sword isn't replaced by any piece of gear RDM currently has access to.

STR Shikagar is 22 Attack 11 STR for 27.5 total Attack and +2.75 fSTR on top of it being 61 DMG 230 Delay.

Ephemeron is just 3% Haste and 58 DMG 213 Delay. The Add TP Drain is fairly decent on low end stuff but sucks on anything worth a damn, thanks SE. And anyway enspells will over right it.

[Demon6324236]

The battle between Ephemeron & STR Shikargar is not one I wish to get into again, I gave my views on it and explained what I see in both weapons, take it or leave it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The benefits of the 3% are much less than you think they are, and if you're at 22% haste before feet slot Eurus isn't any better than Dusk+1 and arguably worse if you're benefiting from the attack. Kudzu/Zelus beat Kthnoios/Shedir in every setup I tried unless accuracy was uncapped.

[ManaKing]

Ephemeron is a terrible offhand. This does not change based on what main hand you use.

Excal loses the +attack and hidden effect in offhand. Regardless of whether you use Excal or Almace in main hand, Str Shikargar is still your best offhand in most situations.

The difference between 90 Almace and 95 Excal is not as large as you are making it out to be (adding in new Vara Brigande, I have them pretty much even /nin on DC, and Excal 2-5% ahead /dnc). If both are 99 they're pretty close with my sets (Zelus/Kudzu/PhosNQ). If using Vara Brigande for TP Excal pulls ahead by a small amount.

If you're talking about Dynamis farming, then excal pulls ahead since you can't keep up AM, but I don't farm on Rdm in the first place.

Any place where an Almace would be competitive, you should probably put away your sword and act like a mage.

In small skirmishes like:
Dynamis
Salvage
Assault
Limbus
general farming
(presumably) Meeble Burrows

The AM will not outweigh the 5% x2.5 damage and 10% additional affect.


In events like VW and Legion, you should play like a mage and actually help your party do things like proc or disable NMs, which does not require a sword. If you want to DD in those situations, I would strongly urge you to pick up a job that uses a 2H weapon and do work.

When Afania made a statement about Legion a couple pages back, she was dead on.

So, if you'll kindly realize that Excalibur > Almace for RDM, then you can realize that you can get better total stats off an Ephemeron Build than a Shikagar build, because you are wasting slots on Haste Equipment that you could use better if you had an extra 3% Haste.

I was not ever suggesting that you should offhand an Excalibur. That would be a total waste, since it wouldn't be in your main hand.

If you don't know that you can have your cake and eat it to with enspell 2s so that you can get both the additional affect from Excalibur and Ephemeron, CAKE IS SERVED.

[Demon6324236]

As stupid as it sounds Ill play RDM as a Front Line Job in VW upto T3s of Jeuno & Zilart, past that I will agree your better off playing as a mage because Acc becomes to much of a problem for a RDM to be worth trying to be effective in the fight. I still see good numbers & damage as RDM, or did with Almace at least, in VW up to that point however. Since my obtaining Excalibur I have not done VW as RDM because I have been kinda lazy with doing the NM trials in Dynamis, so I cant speak off of that but I would think its about the same.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Any place where an Almace would be competitive, you should probably put away your sword and act like a mage.

In small skirmishes like:
Dynamis
Salvage
Assault
Limbus
general farming
(presumably) Meeble Burrows

The AM will not outweigh the 5% x2.5 damage and 10% additional affect.


In events like VW and Legion, you should play like a mage and actually help your party do things like proc or disable NMs, which does not require a sword. If you want to DD in those situations, I would strongly urge you to pick up a job that uses a 2H weapon and do work.

When Afania made a statement about Legion a couple pages back, she was dead on.

So, if you'll kindly realize that Excalibur > Almace for RDM, then you can realize that you can get better total stats off an Ephemeron Build than a Shikagar build, because you are wasting slots on Haste Equipment that you could use better if you had an extra 3% Haste.

I was not ever suggesting that you should offhand an Excalibur. That would be a total waste, since it wouldn't be in your main hand.

If you don't know that you can have your cake and eat it to with enspell 2s so that you can get both the additional affect from Excalibur and Ephemeron, CAKE IS SERVED.

No, Ephemeron is still not a good offhand, get over it

You would have to not have AM up at all for Excal to win by a large amount. Almace is still in the top 3 swords for Rdm.

Please post these slots being 'wasted' on haste, because Zelus/Kudzu > Kthonois/Shedir in the very events you're proposing for melee Rdm.

[ManaKing]

You're delusional

[Neisan_Quetz]

Come back when you can back up your statements with more than feelings, concession accepted

[saevel]

You're delusional

That's kinda the wrong way to go about this. Ad hominem isn't good for any debate. And as much as I can't stand NQ he is correct here, Almace > Xcal for RDM the vast majority of the time due to ODD and CDD's crits. If you want a relic for RDM look into Mandau. Now if SE would go out and remove the 20% attack penalty off Req then this might not be valid.

In either case you'd want the STR sword in your off hand if going for maximum damage. fSTR and that much attack are nothing to scoff at, ESPECIALLY if your using Xcal which would be forcing you to use Req and it's -20% attack on a job without access to DWIII and Berserk simultaneously. There is no item you could switch haste out for attack that 3% would cover, the closest is either the body (Kudzu vs Shahir) or the feet (radgar feet maybe).

Now the wild card is that salvage gear is going to be upgraded here shortly. Morrigans has always been a hybrid melee / mage set that both RDM and BLU could use. SE said they would be doing something similar to what they did with Limbus drops so we can assume two paths, one that keeps the original piece and upgrades the stats, and a 2nd different piece with different stats. Now I hold out little hope for the 2nd piece but the current morrigans isn't bad at all, up the stats and toss on some haste and what not and you may yet be able to justify Eph sword. These could also alter the balance between CDC vs Req, the ONLY reason Req beats out CDC is due to RDM's limited access to DEX vs the ridiculous amounts of MND we can get. You see the exact opposite on BLU which has ridiculous amounts of DEX yet rather limited MND options, I was kinda disappointed when I was making my BLU Req setup for NNI. The moment SE releases more gear with DEX on it that RDM can use (new Meeble body for example) the balance between those two will chance and CDC might end up the dominate WS even without ODD AM.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Welp, now I have to admit I'm agreeing with Saevel

Everyone else can go home now

[ManaKing]

Come back when you can back up your statements with more than feelings, concession accepted

respond to a statement with more than STR SHIKAGAR IS BETTER and maybe ill care to respond to you. The only concession you've gotten is to your own ignorance and your lack of actual RDM play in the current game. If you don't understand why an AM on a job that isn't a DD is a bad idea, then I'm not going to get started on optimalizing dual wield, why RDM damage is still situational, or why arguing about statistics without actual applications is useless.

Have fun playing with your Almace with all that critical hit and critical damage that RDM has to make it good. BLU gets double damage out of Almace for Blue magic. What are you actually getting out of it, besides the convenient crutch that it will work for both BLU and RDM, and that's good enough for you?

[Neisan_Quetz]

I did, you failed reading comprehension, game mechanics, and how damage works in FFXI

what the lol... I can't even respond to you seriously anymore, you clearly don't know wtf you're talking about when it comes to meleeing

[Demon6324236]

Excalibur(99) has HP proc which outside of aby will average about 350ish at Max HP, on top of this it has Attack+40 and higher DMG than Almace(90). Almace has a Crit WS and ODD which has a much higher proc rate & procs on WSs. Excalibur's HP Proc & 2.5 Damage proc about balances out the ODD of Almace on normal hits, however does not come close on WSs.

This is the place where Excalibur starts to fall, in normal attacks its likely better thanks to HP & ODD not relying on the use of WS like Almace does, and the extra DMG/Attack it has over an Almace. However once you hit WSs, just like Ephemeron it starts to take a dive, its a high DMG weapon with a great attack bonus but the Double Damage can not proc on WSs, the HP proc doesn't effect anything in WS, and the best WS for Excalibur has a killer Attack Penalty. Where as with Almace you have a Crit WS which can be hit with Double Damage making it even more powerful and ends up being good overall. Even with less DMG & Attack the Crits & ODD procs on the WS put it ahead alot of the time.

[ManaKing]

ESPECIALLY if your using Xcal which would be forcing you to use Req and it's -20% attack on a job without access to DWIII and Berserk simultaneously.

You guys just aren't getting the picture. You keep pointing out that RDM has this and BLU has this, but you aren't seeing what you are saying. It's rather infuriating.

RDM HAS THE BEST REQ SET

BLU HAS THE BEST CDC SET

And both are by a long shot, COMPARATIVELY. RDMs aren't Forced to use Req, they should be more than happy to use it. RDM shouldn't be trying to use CDC because it doesn't have the gear for it. It doesn't have gear like Athos with access to Crit and Crit Damage.

You will always be lack luster outside of scenerios that don't give you Atmas or Atmacites, or something like Potency Potions. In areas unsupported by outside buffs, you will do bad, inconsistent damage. You will only be using the Almace for the ODD, because you could be doing better, more consistent damage with Req.

The TP set i've put up has +122 Atk (5 from sword skill and 10 from +20 STR) and +42.5 Acc, which is higher than whatever you put together. My delay is lower than yours and my Store TP builds are higher than yours so I can do 15 hits. The larger contribution of my delay favors my main hand, meaning that my offhand is actually quickening my main hand instead of slowing down yours with a 230 delay weapon. Dual Wield is working in favor of my main hand aka my damage hand, aka the thing with not 1, but 2 additional procs. The 25% of HP damage can proc on both hits in a Double Attack.

ALSO my off hand steals TP. AND I have flexibility to change out my neck and ammo if I so desire and not lose my Haste cap and my 15 Hit Build.

I can even wear a fancy body that doesn't have Haste on it without dropping my hit build.

Whatever you think your fancy STR sword is doing for you, well it's not. And your Almace. It needs more support than you can give it, because you don't have the gear for it. That's why you can wiff for like 900 damage. You aren't a faux THF, like BLU, so you can just take everyone's gimmicks. Zelus Tiaras are bad and you should feel bad for wearing them on a job that can't afford to give up an entire slot worth of stats.

Learn to play RDM if you're going to tell people about RDM, because all this theoretical math from parses in situations that you shouldn't be meleeing in to being with, is getting old. Your ASSUMPTIONS reek of someone who hasn't taken RDM seriously in a long time. Get off you BLU or w/e you're playing because RDM is hard and actually go do some stuff.

[ManaKing]

This is the place where Excalibur starts to fall, in normal attacks its likely better thanks to HP & ODD not relying on the use of WS like Almace does, and the extra DMG/Attack it has over an Almace. However once you hit WSs, just like Ephemeron it starts to take a dive, its a high DMG weapon with a great attack bonus but the Double Damage can not proc on WSs, the HP proc doesn't effect anything in WS, and the best WS for Excalibur has a killer Attack Penalty. Where as with Almace you have a Crit WS which can be hit with Double Damage making it even more powerful and ends up being good overall. Even with less DMG & Attack the Crits & ODD procs on the WS put it ahead alot of the time.

Lol Req has a killer attack penalty, but no one talks about CDCs killer lack-of-gear penalty. CDC is in the same boat if not worse for RDM without event based buffs to put it back in the game. At least Req has a ton of MND to fall back on and 5+1 hits at bare minimum with belt and gorget support. It's consistency is high and it goes through special defense so it hits everything the same. It fails against high defense mobs, but i guess we don't have a % based debuff that can't miss to help with that..................



Excalibur(99) has HP proc which outside of aby will average about 350ish at Max HP, on top of this it has Attack+40 and higher DMG than Almace(90). Almace has a Crit WS and ODD which has a much higher proc rate & procs on WSs. Excalibur's HP Proc & 2.5 Damage proc about balances out the ODD of Almace on normal hits, however does not come close on WSs.


LOL? check yourself, you're stepping in shit.

You seem to be mixing up Mythics and Empys.

Almace is only that cool to BLU because it can double spell damage for phsyical blu spells. Thus why Saeval and NQ has such a overzealous fondness for broken things, even though they don't apply to RDM. This is why BLU + ALMACE is so good and RDM + Almace is a pail comparison.

[Demon6324236]

Gear is a problem RDM faces with CDC, I agree, however you can not ignore the ODD procs on CDC, the fact Dia still helps CDC just like it helps Req, and the fact that in some events CDC gets a massive boost. If CDC does not get the boost it really goes down to gear, so far as I know about BLU gear which admittedly is lacking in compare to nearly any other job in the game, to my knowledge BLU's main advantage over RDM with CDC would seem to be Athos. Outside of that it seems to have roughly the same crit gear, meaning Rancor Back & Nef Neck. So our lack of gear mainly extends to DEX, where we have a massive boost from Gain-DEX, and some subpar gear. I would put them on the same level probably.

As I said the ODD is a big player. It may not be as consistent but if it is more powerful on average than it is overall better. This is the only reason I say Almace is possibly better as they say, I just recently got Excalibur and so far as I know, you just recently got yours as well, so neither of us should be able to say for 100% certain we are correct as we likely neither one have the experience, numbers, testing, or facts to back it up in the end.

I myself plan to take both Excalibur & Almace to 99, and if I have my way I will have the Mythic as well even though it seems highly lackluster and possibly not worth the bother. In the end I will definitely inform everyone of my findings by parsing them in a number of situations and let everyone know my perceived use of them, though I doubt I will be anywhere near noticed and someone else will do it before I do. In the end I will also be parsing between 2 sets, 1 set which uses a more Zelus/Kudzu build with the focus being more on Double Attack, and another with the focus being on Attack itself, the current Khth/Shedir build. In either case I plan to attempt to find the optimum use of RDM DDing and use, as even though it may be inferior to BLU and other jobs I have chosen to be a RDM at heart and my goal is to do all I can to make it good.

I think with a total of roughly 6 basic different parse for RDM & its weapons I would be able to determine the most potent in situations & build upon them. I gave you my opinions on how these weapons & WSs work with or against each other, both in the case of Excalibur/Almace & Shikargar/Ephemeron, take it or leave it. I'm tired and going to sleep you can continue to bicker or fight with each other over your ideas or what you think as facts on how useful these weapons are however I think it is best to label them as all things are in this game and say they are each situational to the moment and you can not say 1 is a be all end all as almost nothing in this game is ever a be all end all for anything.

[ManaKing]

read edited post ^

Also, Murgleis is awesome. I'm getting it. It's too pretty to pass up.

[Demon6324236]

LOL? check yourself, you're stepping in shit.

You seem to be mixing up Mythics and Empys.

Almace is only that cool to BLU because it can double spell damage for phsyical blu spells. Thus why Saeval and NQ has such a overzealous foundness for broken things, even though they don't apply to RDM.

No~ Last I knew it proced on WSs as well as normal strikes. I was led to believe the main reason for most emps these days such as Masa or Calad was to use the WS to have an active aftermath of which you then spam the corresponding Merit WS with a chance to get the ODD effect to proc thus creating more overall damage, I may have been mistaken however, this is only going off of what I have been told, never looked into it much myself. If I'm wrong then so be it, but in either case I still think neither of us have had an Excalibur long enough to say with 100% certainty which one is better than the other. Because so far as I gather from the thread asking for a loan (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/32967/30-m-silverpiece-needed-for-loan-on-phoenix/) that you have had yours about a week, and I doubt that is enough time to get any definitive info on which is better and in which situations without going simply off another's testimony of which I can not see it as a good idea to defend another's ideals or opinions so adamantly.

[Demon6324236]

Comparing RDM+Almace to BLU+Almace is stupid yes, however your comparing RDM+Almace to RDM+Excalibur which is vastly different and what we are talking about here so far as I know. In the end its a matter of Almace vs Excalibur for RDM and the end answer all comes down to how they work and what you use for them. I plan to gear both to the teeth and give my results to everyone which is why I have asked help on the RDM forums of AH.com for more assistance on building a solid build for KoR. I plan to do much of the same for other sets in time as I go along, but thats in due time and once I can really get my hands on more of the gear I need. Sadly my ls is not active in Legion, Neo-Nyzul, or Neo-Limbus currently so my access to the higher end gear I do actually want & require is still out of reach and the prime reason I actually lack a Shedir, which since you brought it to my attention in this same thread I believe, I have had it as a goal, same as Kudzu.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You guys just aren't getting the picture. You keep pointing out that RDM has this and BLU has this, but you aren't seeing what you are saying. It's rather infuriating.

RDM HAS THE BEST REQ SET

BLU HAS THE BEST CDC SET

And both are by a long shot, COMPARATIVELY. RDMs aren't Forced to use Req, they should be more than happy to use it. RDM shouldn't be trying to use CDC because it doesn't have the gear for it. It doesn't have gear like Athos with access to Crit and Crit Damage.

You will always be lack luster outside of scenerios that don't give you Atmas or Atmacites, or something like Potency Potions. In areas unsupported by outside buffs, you will do bad, inconsistent damage. You will only be using the Almace for the ODD, because you could be doing better, more consistent damage with Req.

The TP set i've put up has +122 Atk (5 from sword skill and 10 from +20 STR) and +42.5 Acc, which is higher than whatever you put together. My delay is lower than yours and my Store TP builds are higher than yours so I can do 15 hits. The larger contribution of my delay favors my main hand, meaning that my offhand is actually quickening my main hand instead of slowing down yours with a 230 delay weapon. Dual Wield is working in favor of my main hand aka my damage hand, aka the thing with not 1, but 2 additional procs. The 25% of HP damage can proc on both hits in a Double Attack.

ALSO my off hand steals TP. AND I have flexibility to change out my neck and ammo if I so desire and not lose my Haste cap and my 15 Hit Build.

I can even wear a fancy body that doesn't have Haste on it without dropping my hit build.

Whatever you think your fancy STR sword is doing for you, well it's not. And your Almace. It needs more support than you can give it, because you don't have the gear for it. That's why you can wiff for like 900 damage. You aren't a faux THF, like BLU, so you can just take everyone's gimmicks. Zelus Tiaras are bad and you should feel bad for wearing them on a job that can't afford to give up an entire slot worth of stats.

Learn to play RDM if you're going to tell people about RDM, because all this theoretical math from parses in situations that you shouldn't be meleeing in to being with, is getting old. Your ASSUMPTIONS reek of someone who hasn't taken RDM seriously in a long time. Get off you BLU or w/e you're playing because RDM is hard and actually go do some stuff.

I could not face palm any harder at this entire post.

[Afania]

Well I haven't yet gotten around to legion but from reading this post, as well as others, I take most people arent doing Legion and dont care much about it as you apparently do. I also must admit that RDM does seem quite useful in this event as per your description. My only issue is the bolded line where everyone keeps trying pigeon hole RDM as a mage only/ predominately mage job. I wont claim to be a rpg enthusiast of any sorts because these game can be rather boring and monotonous to get most things done, however I've seen/played enough rpg to know that mages arent seen wielding bladed weapons of any sort very often. In any case they are it is typically something light and low damage like a knife/dagger because mages arent typically seen as strong enough to wield much else. In addition though redmage is capable of equipping a staff like a traditional mage. I respect you like the mage aspect of rdm as i admit is handy but can you please stop pigeon-holing it and respect that not everybody always enjoys the mage aspects as much as you do. Thank you for your understanding in advance.

It's pretty easy to label everything as "Pigeon-holing a job" if players just uses the strongest/most needed aspect of a job to beat an event.

It has nothing about I "enjoy" mage RDM or not, I don't even play the job. It's just the fact that using this aspect of the job makes things easier in certain situation. It's just like ppl invite BRD to sing, and melee BRD isn't most useful in EG event. Or ppl invite SCH to embrava and focus on stun and so on. You can tell ppl I hate buff only BRD and want to play as melee BRD all day, but it just doens't work as well. In the event such as legion, the most effective way to use BRD is to have it SV at start, and lock SV near the portal for entire time, and do nothing entire run except lock 2hr+ sing when needed. You can tell everyone that I want to play as melee DD BRD and have best DD gears, but it just doesn't work as well as lock 2hr+ sing only BRD.

If you want to play role-playing and melee mage, then harder EG event isn't the right place to do it, as pt efficiency and the outcome of the event will be affected.

If you want to play melee mage in easier content, such as old limbus/salvage/nyzul, then you will also face another problem, that is other melee jobs like BLU, still do the same thing, and do it much faster and more efficient, this issue was being pointed out earlier and addressed.

MMORPG, after you gonna grind stuff for months and years, sometimes ppl will lean towards efficiency rather than novelty.
And there bound to be most efficient way currently discovered to do anything. For Melee mage lovers, maybe their first try will be fun, after a few tries and more grind, I believe majority of player would want to choose faster ways to do it. Is melee RDM cool? Sure. Will melee RDM lovers enjoy it? Maybe for a few times. But after you do 100 salvage/old nyzul/limbus runs on melee RDM, and do it slower than coming another melee job such as BLU, will you still insist to do it on RDM? That is my question.

RDM works just fine as it is, if you're going to complain that RDM's melee ability is too weak compare with other job and you can't melee, then you may as well go complain PUP BLU BRD DNC THF BLM WHM COR SCH SMN RNG needs better melee ability because "I enjoy melee with a club" "I enjoy using a sword on pirate" "I enjoy playing as a musician with a dagger" "I enjoy magic warrior BLM meleeing with a staff and nuke on same time" and so on.

What I don't understand is, why nobody ever complained BRD BLM SCH COR SMN needs a melee dmg buff, but ppl do so to RDM and if you claimed RDM can do something else(mage aspect) better, it's "pigeon-holing". So it's not "pigeon-holing" RNG if I said RNG excel at ranged low enmity DD but not melee, or if I said BLM excel at nuking but not melee, or if I said BRD excel at singing but not melee?

Your standard can extend to every job then, that having RNG and COR shoot bullets instead of meleeing, or BLM nuking instead of using a staff, or BRD singing instead of using a dagger is "pigeon-holing".

And when we refuse to "Pigeon-hole" every job, let every job do what they want, there are no real way to handle party role anymore. And this is not how this game, FFXI is designed. This game is designed every job has it's best party role, despite every job gets certain weapon skill level for melee.

RDM is not classified as melee job but a mage job at the moment, deal with it. Maybe SE may change it in the future and nerf it's mage role, makes melee role stronger, but whatever it goes, deal with it, accept the fact that every job in this game is "pigeon-hole" and specialized at one aspect, and be glad that at least it's wanted for one event in this game.

[saevel]

I really don't know how else to explain this. We're discussing pure damage output here hence the preference for STR Sword off hand, and in any situation where you want pure offensive power it's what you'll be using. This precluded alternate situations where things like Sanus Ensis would be preferable or the PDT sword.

Almace's ODD can not proc on WS's, it's melee damage only but it's proc rate is much higher then Xcal's 2.5. Req vs CDC is a very big "it depends" as RDM has crap attack compared to other DW jobs, mostly due to it not being able to have /WAR with DW. You never EVER want your cRatio to be under 1.0, that's the territory of absolute sh!t damage. Req's -20% attack penality pretty much guarantees that you'll be under 1.0 on anything more then 4~5 levels above you. At that point in time a crit is double damage (1.0 -> 2.0) and crits suddenly become very important to WS damage.

Messed up thing about Xcal's add damage is that it's pretty much equal to using enspell 1's on a Dual Wielding job. I don't know about the precedence of Enspell II vs Add effect, I've NEVER EVER heard about them being different then Enspell 1's and until I see evidence otherwise I'm assuming their the same. The attack on Xcal is really nice, but it doesn't make up for the damage lost. In either case you would be using STR sword off hand, I really can't see anywhere that 3% would do more for you then 27.5 attack and 2.7 fSTR as you can already cap gear haste.

I've been around and around this for a very long time and no matter what numbers you plug in STR Shikagar -> Eph Sword, on both RDM and BLU. It's really just an expensive glowing sword good only for town gear.

[ManaKing]

I could not face palm any harder at this entire post.

OMG I made a single line comment.

[ManaKing]

No~ Last I knew it proced on WSs as well as normal strikes. I was led to believe the main reason for most emps these days such as Masa or Calad was to use the WS to have an active aftermath of which you then spam the corresponding Merit WS with a chance to get the ODD effect to proc thus creating more overall damage, I may have been mistaken however, this is only going off of what I have been told, never looked into it much myself. If I'm wrong then so be it, but in either case I still think neither of us have had an Excalibur long enough to say with 100% certainty which one is better than the other. Because so far as I gather from the thread asking for a loan (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/32967/30-m-silverpiece-needed-for-loan-on-phoenix/) that you have had yours about a week, and I doubt that is enough time to get any definitive info on which is better and in which situations without going simply off another's testimony of which I can not see it as a good idea to defend another's ideals or opinions so adamantly.

I've had an Almace for a long time. I know what Empys are. An Almace is BLUs Relic, since they didn't get in on Excal. I would have never put together a Relic if I didn't do my research first. MYTHICS ARE THE ONLY AM THAT PROC DURING A WS AND THE ONLY WS THEY PROC DURING IS THEIR MYTHIC.

So whatever you think the argument was for Almace on RDM, you are wrong, just like they are wrong for thinking that CDC + Aftermath for Almace is a good thing for a RDM because it implies that you are going to an event with an extended boss fight with temp support and that you aren't needed for CCS, which means you should have come an actual DD if you really cared about rocking that parse and getting all elitest. If you are going around and murdering small groups of mobs Excal wins and that's what you should be doing. Being able to WS more quickly because of not only the better/faster TP generation of an Ephemeron offhand not to mention the additional affect of even more TP is what is going to kill your mobs faster so that you can keep moving on. The AM that may or may not be relevant at all, will not, nor will throwing a 900 damage CDC that didn't crit and you got unlucky with double attacks.

Pretending an Almace AM is going to pay off because you're too lazy to make an Excal for RDM after you made an Almace for BLU is just insulting for the rest of the people that actually took the time to be the best they could be for RDM. That's what Saevel and NQ are doing. Boo hoo Relics are expensive and PLD is crappy so I'll just say Almace is better and mislead a bunch of people to make me feel better. Grow up.

[Demon6324236]

Like I said, Ill parse both in a number of situations & gear sets once I 99 them both, so Ill get back to ya in about 2~3 months depending on if I feel like doing hundreds of Qilin or not.

[ManaKing]

I really don't know how else to explain this. We're discussing pure damage output here

No, we're not. We are talking about applicable situations where RDMs would melee and the actual merits of doing so. You know, actually playing the game as a RDM.....



Almace's ODD can not proc on WS's, it's melee damage only but it's proc rate is much higher then Xcal's 2.5. Req vs CDC is a very big "it depends" as RDM has crap attack compared to other DW jobs, mostly due to it not being able to have /WAR with DW. You never EVER want your cRatio to be under 1.0, that's the territory of absolute sh!t damage. Req's -20% attack penality pretty much guarantees that you'll be under 1.0 on anything more then 4~5 levels above you. At that point in time a crit is double damage (1.0 -> 2.0) and crits suddenly become very important to WS damage.


Cough Cough soil gorget and belt. Add tons of MND. Do work.



Messed up thing about Xcal's add damage is that it's pretty much equal to using enspell 1's on a Dual Wielding job. I don't know about the precedence of Enspell II vs Add effect, I've NEVER EVER heard about them being different then Enspell 1's and until I see evidence otherwise I'm assuming their the same. The attack on Xcal is really nice, but it doesn't make up for the damage lost. In either case you would be using STR sword off hand, I really can't see anywhere that 3% would do more for you then 27.5 attack and 2.7 fSTR as you can already cap gear haste.


Oh well here's the evidence. I had a friend who had an Excal before me. I was like hey, switch over to RDM please, put on Enspell 2s. Attack those mobs for like 3 minutes.

Results: Additional Affect overrides Enspell 2 damage. Additional Affect can go off on any normal swing done by Excalibur, aka Double Attacks.

I went, holy shit, I want one of those. 3 months later = now. Ask Demon if he puts on enspell 2s if he gets the TH/Enlight proc to go off. Don't take my word for it. We have a 2nd party here that isn't biased to how clearly awesome Excal is.


The attack on Xcal is really nice, but it doesn't make up for the damage lost. In either case you would be using STR sword off hand, I really can't see anywhere that 3% would do more for you then 27.5 attack and 2.7 fSTR as you can already cap gear haste.

I've been around and around this for a very long time and no matter what numbers you plug in STR Shikagar -> Eph Sword, on both RDM and BLU. It's really just an expensive glowing sword good only for town gear.

The attack on the Excal is obnoxiously nice is what you mean to say, because it is. When you guys are all like STR shika this and STR shika that, I'm like how about just having 73 base damage and 40 god damn attack? The thing is a monster. I'm essentially using an Axe with extra damage procs(plural because there are 2). If there was only 1, I would be less adamant about it, but there are 2.

You don't get just attack, you also get accuracy, a faster TP phase, lower total delay, and an additional additional affect that steals TP. Not to mention a ton of AGI for subtle blow and for lessening your chances of being critically hit. You're an elvaan, you know what that means.

Also, what do you want to do with your neck and ammo slot? Anything fancy because idk you're a fancy mage that can melee at a reasonable level? You can use a ranged weapon if you want, so you can pull again magic aggro foes. If you ever manage to get a Portus Collar, you can wear that without messing up your TP phase.

I understand that if you math a STR Shikagar and an Almace, it wins, but you're not seeing the applications of it, nor what you are giving up for it.

[saevel]

Jesus ...

Mana you really need to learn the mechanics behind damage. Your sounding like a noob right now.

Go look up Moten's DPS sheets, pull the RDM one out. You can fit in various gear levels and it's pretty good at predicting what your average damage will be. You can go so far as to put in Dia III and the ODD rates of the various weapons.

That is what we've been basing our info on, rather then just spouting off random stuff.

Everyone here should know me and NQ really don't get along, yet we're both actually agreeing on something. That alone should speak volumes.

[Neisan_Quetz]

As much as I dislike Saevel he has brought more to the argument than your anecdotal evidence you "think" is correct.

[Demon6324236]

Well in my opinion the best ammos you can go with for RDM TPing would be White Tathlum for STP, Astrolabe for the 1STR/3Acc, or use a Killer Shortbow. As for neck Houyi's is nice for Acc/STP until you get a Portus, at which point Portus dominates of course.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Tathlum/Smart Grenade/Astrolabe are pretty much identical if you don't need accuracy with Astro/Oneiros slightly ahead if you do

Rancor is best neck short of Portus, screw that damn Diabolos (there isn't a giant difference between either)

EDIT: Flame Sachet is also an option, and also pretty much the same as the others

[ManaKing]

2 people agreeing doesn't make either of them right, regardless of the situation. What you give up and where you fight changes the effectiveness of RDM and what will work best. If you want to go to VW or Aby with an Almace, I won't disagree with you. You're fine there. But everywhere else, you should use other tactics because they would be more effective.

[saevel]

No, we're not. We are talking about applicable situations where RDMs would melee and the actual merits of doing so. You know, actually playing the game as a RDM.....

Now for this. We were discussing the optimum melee builds for damage, thus we're using the highest damage output you can get. That means STR sword off hand and either Almace or Excal (with Almace being better on anything higher then you).

Now if we want to discuss situation use, upon which I mentioned earlier Sanus Ensis and PDT sword, then we can do that. Honestly "best" off hand weapon for RDM for melee situations is usually Sanus due to the cure pot / cure received and stats involved. There is something to be said for +13% Cure Pot and +10% Cure Received on a job that has native skill and Cure IV. Here your sacrificing 21 Attack for 2STR, 13MND and the cure effects while still maintaining a high DMG weapon. The PDT sword also comes into play for when your playing defensive and need to reduce the damage your taking.

Both of those are better "alternative / situational" weapons then Eph.

Now what this is really all about. Your butt hurt that we're telling you the STR Sword is your best off hand weapon. Maybe you don't have one or you don't want to spend the time / money to make one. You got lucky and got an Eph and your feeling attached to a rather rare item and want to use it.

I don't give a rats a$$ about the snowflake argument.

[Demon6324236]

I personally wouldn't use Rancor only because I do not like the extra damage taken and depending where you are fighting it can be very bad for you. 1 such instance is Dyna to me, as the main job I do Dyna as is RDM and more damage taken on me could prove dangerous especially against DCs.

[Neisan_Quetz]

2 people agreeing doesn't make either of them right, regardless of the situation. What you give up and where you fight changes the effectiveness of RDM and what will work best. If you want to go to VW or Aby with an Almace, I won't disagree with you. You're fine there. But everywhere else, you should use other tactics because they would be more effective.

Nah, the moment you proved you didn't understand basic game mechanics, fSTR, or how AM works is where you lost the argument

@above Rancor's +DT is hardly an issue on the very mobs you would typically melee on Rdm unless you're holding multiples, the only thing you don't have is a stun

[ManaKing]

Tathlum/Smart Grenade/Astrolabe are pretty much identical if you don't need accuracy with Astro/Oneiros slightly ahead if you do

Rancor is best neck short of Portus, screw that damn Diabolos (there isn't a giant difference between either)

You could use nefarious if you don't want to get slapped around by the 10% increased damage taken.

[saevel]

I personally wouldn't use Rancor only because I do not like the extra damage taken and depending where you are fighting it can be very bad for you. 1 such instance is Dyna to me, as the main job I do Dyna as is RDM and more damage taken on me could prove dangerous especially against DCs.

That is acceptable, there is another option that is only 3% crit (vs 5) but removes the +10% DT penalty.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Nefarious actually lags abit to the point it's practically a Fortitude Torque. Although like most things in XI the difference between them is once again, not a giant margin (if I'm that worried about +DT I would switch neck)

[Demon6324236]

True, I rarely remember Nef outside of CDC for some reason, but it works as well.

[ManaKing]

Now for this. We were discussing the optimum melee builds for damage, thus we're using the highest damage output you can get. That means STR sword off hand and either Almace or Excal (with Almace being better on anything higher then you).

Now if we want to discuss situation use, upon which I mentioned earlier Sanus Ensis and PDT sword, then we can do that. Honestly "best" off hand weapon for RDM for melee situations is usually Sanus due to the cure pot / cure received and stats involved. There is something to be said for +13% Cure Pot and +10% Cure Received on a job that has native skill and Cure IV. Here your sacrificing 21 Attack for 2STR, 13MND and the cure effects while still maintaining a high DMG weapon. The PDT sword also comes into play for when your playing defensive and need to reduce the damage your taking.

Both of those are better "alternative / situational" weapons then Eph.

Now what this is really all about. Your butt hurt that we're telling you the STR Sword is your best off hand weapon. Maybe you don't have one or you don't want to spend the time / money to make one. You got lucky and got an Eph and your feeling attached to a rather rare item and want to use it.

I don't give a rats a$$ about the snowflake argument.

Wow so essentially you just said, 'I've been wasting a ton of time talking about theoretical damage even though YOU started this by talking about actual builds and actually playing the game.' God you're such an idiot. You guys all get that I play RDM almost 90% of the time or more? I'm not talking about something I take out and drive on the weekends. So when you are talking about a pure damage situation, you aren't actually talking to anyone that actually plays RDM. You are talking about a theoretical parse that no one should do because you shouldn't be there on RDM trying to DD.

RDM is my utility knife that I go everywhere with and use to take on this entire game, because I said I wanted to do it that way. I go to Limbus, Dynamis, Sky, Salvage, Assault, Campaign, Aby, VW, Legion, and any place else I want to go. RDM can go to all of those places easily. All of your arguments don't actually apply to any of those events because a pure damage situations are none of those situations. There is no Pure damage situation for RDM.

I didn't pick the omni class to take up all my gear and focus it on something that isn't better than another perfectly viable option that gets the most out of my job. I would have to have some kind of secondary motivation for a decision like that. Like that I play BLU and my Almace is already built and I don't actually play RDM.

[ManaKing]

Nah, the moment you proved you didn't understand basic game mechanics, fSTR, or how AM works is where you lost the argument

@above Rancor's +DT is hardly an issue on the very mobs you would typically melee on Rdm unless you're holding multiples, the only thing you don't have is a stun

'I speak in single sentences and thus are responded to in single sentences.'

[Neisan_Quetz]

Concession accepted, enjoy the rest of your day

[saevel]

Mana you've been talking in circles because you don't want to admit you were wrong. Eph is not better then STR Sword in any current build or situation. Almace and Excal are mostly equal but in situations were your fighting anything higher level then you are (level 100 or higher) Almace wins easily.

The moment you attempted to use your non-knowledge of game mechanics to justify yourself is where you messed up. Should of just taken the info and ran with it.

[Demon6324236]

Honestly I think this thread looks to be turning into a pissing contest of sorts I think.

[Demon6324236]

After testing it for about 10 minutes in Kuftal I have to say I actually doubt Excalibur's Additional Effect overwrites the effect of En-2 spells. I have been fighting Robber Crabs about 10 minutes removing all forms of Double Attack in order to make sure I was only seeing attacks of which would normally be effected by En-2s and in the 10 minutes I experienced not a single HP Proc. I am only using a lv85 Excalibur, however I would doubt that makes much of a difference, so I have to say for now that this is false until shown otherwise.

[ManaKing]

After testing it for about 10 minutes in Kuftal I have to say I actually doubt Excalibur's Additional Effect overwrites the effect of En-2 spells. I have been fighting Robber Crabs about 10 minutes removing all forms of Double Attack in order to make sure I was only seeing attacks of which would normally be effected by En-2s and in the 10 minutes I experienced not a single HP Proc. I am only using a lv85 Excalibur, however I would doubt that makes much of a difference, so I have to say for now that this is false until shown otherwise.

Go into aby. Equip triple attack atmas to save time. Put on enspell 2s. I'm doing it right now. Sorry you're unlucky.

[Demon6324236]

Go into aby. Equip triple attack atmas to save time. Put on enspell 2s. I'm doing it right now. Sorry you're unlucky.You can not use Double or Triple Attack in testing this because the En-2 spells are only made to proc on the 1st hit of any attack around. This is why I said I removed all forms of Double Attack, as it gives false data since En-2s can not proc on the 2nd hit anyways. However if you are saying that you would use En-2s with Excalibur while knowing that you can not proc it on the 1st hit, and it only has a chance to proc on Double Attacks in the event they occur seems to be a flawed idea on how to use the weapon, and it seems as if you would be better off without any En-spell at all.

Edit------------------------------------------------

Please redo your testing yourself, while removing Temper & all forms of Double Attack, and then repost your new results. If you find something different than I did I will go back and redo it for a much longer period, however so far it would seem my original findings were correct for now.

[CapriciousOne]

1) It's pretty easy to label everything as "Pigeon-holing a job" if players just uses the strongest/most needed aspect of a job to beat an event.

It has nothing about I "enjoy" mage RDM or not, 2) I don't even play the job. 3) It's just the fact that using this aspect of the job makes things easier in certain situation. It's just like ppl invite BRD to sing, and melee BRD isn't most useful in EG event. Or ppl invite SCH to embrava and focus on stun and so on. You can tell ppl I hate buff only BRD and want to play as melee BRD all day, but it just doens't work as well. In the event such as legion, the most effective way to use BRD is to have it SV at start, and lock SV near the portal for entire time, and 4) do nothing entire run except lock 2hr+ sing when needed. You can tell everyone that I want to play as melee DD BRD and have best DD gears, but it just doesn't work as well as lock 2hr+ sing only BRD.

If you want to play role-playing and melee mage, then harder EG event isn't the right place to do it, as 5)pt efficiency and the outcome of the event will be affected.

If you want to play melee mage in easier content, such as old limbus/salvage/nyzul, then you will also face another problem, that is other melee jobs like BLU, still do the same thing, and do it much faster and more efficient, this issue was being pointed out earlier and addressed.

MMORPG, after you gonna grind stuff for months and years, sometimes ppl will lean towards efficiency rather than 6)novelty.
And there bound to be most efficient way currently discovered to do anything. For Melee mage lovers, maybe their first try will be fun, after a few tries and more grind, I believe majority of player would want to 7)choose faster ways to do it. Is melee RDM cool? Sure. Will melee RDM lovers enjoy it? Maybe for a few times. 8)But after you do 100 salvage/old nyzul/limbus runs on melee RDM, and do it slower than coming another melee job such as BLU, will you still insist to do it on RDM? That is my question.

RDM works just fine as it is, 9)if you're going to complain that RDM's melee ability is too weak compare with other job and you can't melee, then you may as well go complain PUP BLU BRD DNC THF BLM WHM COR SCH SMN RNG needs better melee ability because "I enjoy melee with a club" "I enjoy using a sword on pirate" "I enjoy playing as a musician with a dagger" "I enjoy magic warrior BLM meleeing with a staff and nuke on same time" and so on.

What I don't understand is, 10)why nobody ever complained BRD BLM SCH COR SMN needs a melee dmg buff, but ppl do so to RDM and if you claimed RDM can do something else(mage aspect) better, it's "pigeon-holing". So it's not "pigeon-holing" RNG if I said RNG excel at ranged low enmity DD but not melee, or if I said BLM excel at nuking but not melee, or if I said BRD excel at singing but not melee?

Your standard can extend to every job then, that 11)having RNG and COR shoot bullets instead of meleeing, or BLM nuking instead of using a staff, or BRD singing instead of using a dagger is "pigeon-holing".

And when we refuse to "Pigeon-hole" every job, let every job do what they want, there are no real way to handle party role anymore. And this is not how this game, FFXI is designed. This game is designed every job has it's best party role, despite every job gets certain weapon skill level for melee.

RDM is not classified as melee job but a mage job at the moment, deal with it. Maybe SE may change it in the future and nerf it's mage role, makes melee role stronger, but whatever it goes, deal with it, accept the fact that every job in this game is "pigeon-hole" and specialized at one aspect, and 12)be glad that at least it's wanted for one event in this game.

1+3 Well see this is where our and probably most melee RDM perspectives differ. There is nothing wrong with using the mage aspect of the job to aid in battle but not at the expense of the other aspects it also accesses. That is what I call pigeon holing- the emphasis of one aspect to negligence/exclusion of others. For me it about utilizing ALL ASPECTS not just one to get the job done.

2. Honeslty If you dont play RDM why the F are you here commenting on RDM at all without any RDM experience? I dont play bard or brd much so I dont comment on brd threads.

4 Well that is my point about exactly about RDM I can do MANY things not just one. I also believe that anybody with a weapon should be swinging it else why are you here. It makes no sense to me that 18 ppl with a weapon equipped but only like 9 of them are actually swinging them. For instance, a mob has 60k hp and let say for the sake of conversation that the aveage delay for the party is say 350( various combinations of weapons with GS with high delay of 500 and daggers with around 200 delay) and let say the average base damage per person possible is 80 (daggers at about 40, GS at about 120). So with 80 base damage at 350 delay it would be far faster to kill a 60k hp mob dealing 1440 damage about every 6 seconds than having 9 dd dealing only about 720 not counting ws damage per attack round. The same could be said about any other job damage dealt is damage dealt no matter magic or weapon and people need to just shut up and hit something I say.

5 As far as party efficiency goes there are many factors that are involved to effect that beyond just RDM meleeing even in harder more recent content, I am aware that more recent content has new mob techniques like Glavoid in abyssea and its ability to absorb damage and stuff like that but being aware of when to do and not do is essential to party efficiency, in other words STRATEGY. Player efficiency at the job also matters like having skill capped to or above the level of the mob being contesting which with the days of abyssea burn parties for people leaves a lot to be desired in job compentency these days. I mean how many people actually go back and skil; up jobs afterwards?

6 Novely? I personally dont see anything about RDM as a novelty. If anything I see RDM as the most balanced job overall between melee and magic. I can melee mobs, enfeeble mobs to reduce/eliminate the advantages they have over me in attack speed, defense, magic. To me in the world of Vanadiel that isnt a novelty, it is ESSENTIAL.

7 I get being more efficient as I am no stranger to trying to be more efficient but to anybody with any common sense it is far faster to use MELEE AND MAGIC over MELEE ONLY OR MAGIC ONLY. Duh.
8 Well when I finally decide to get Blue mage up and do those events 100 times I will give you an answer to that question but as far as I can see from playing those other jobs to at least lv 21(other than RDM,DNC, and THF) I highly doubt my answer will be anything but yes on insisting on still using RDM

9 Personally, I am not complaining about RDM attack power as I feel RDM is more than a competent melee capable job, though some of the WS and their modifiers can use some refinement. RDM is a B with the sword with BLU/PLD being an A. The difference with me is that I dont expect to do 1 to 1 damage with those guys with a B skill, however I DONT believe the gap should be so wide. For instance if BLU/PLD can do 2000 damage at max tp with a WS than RDM should be able to do at least 1500 plain and simple with the same type of equipment/atmas/etc. I mean since the grading scale for A is 94-100 and B is 85-93 and 1500 would be an even 85% of pld/blu damage... enough said.

10 Maybe it just me but I never seen a 99 BRD, COR like ever and I only run into BLM SCH SMN mostly when they farming so I imagine you never hear about BRD, COR because not many play it enough to care so passionately about it like RDM and BLM, SCH, and SMN are dedicated mage jobs and do about as much damage using magic as DD do using weapons so there is very little to complain about when Blizzaja can do about 2000dmg to multiple mobs at once, especially if they are weak to it and BLM gets all the Magic Attack bonuses which gives a magic mod of like 2.3x dmg so about what would they have to complain?

11 Technically I define meleeing as using any mechanical weaponry to attack and damage a mob so using shooting bullets would still count in my book it would just be categorized as ranged melee and not close quarters melee (in other words I'm calling ranged for wimps) LOL

12 Low expectations low rewards. The thing is most people arent content with just being thrown a bone with just one or 2 events that quite frankly they may or may not even care to enjoy because nothing they desire is won from it. Even if it was it is about being included in ALL game content, you know that thing called OPTIONS.

[Lilia]

>.< junk

Maybe you have only joytoy and relict af2 for melee, THEN you weaker as other melee jobs.....

The prob is not Rdm cant melee good enough, the prob is when rdm go with ~lvl75 equip.

Rly good equip Rdm can pull out good dmg. and can beat easy 08/15 blus,thfs,

Say the rdm cant good melee is junk......

[Calatilla]

>.< junk

Maybe you have only joytoy and relict af2 for melee, THEN you weaker as other melee jobs.....

The prob is not Rdm cant melee good enough, the prob is when rdm go with ~lvl75 equip.

Rly good equip Rdm can pull out good dmg. and can beat easy 08/15 blus,thfs,

Say the rdm cant good melee is junk......

Yeah......I don't think so. Even the best of the best geared melee RDM isnt coming close to a BLU. RDM doesn't have access to the kind of gear BLU does.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you compared to 95% of blus on server it would, since most of the blus on a server are wearing absolute junk, or fulltiming 5/5 emp

[ManaKing]

You can not use Double or Triple Attack in testing this because the En-2 spells are only made to proc on the 1st hit of any attack around. This is why I said I removed all forms of Double Attack, as it gives false data since En-2s can not proc on the 2nd hit anyways. However if you are saying that you would use En-2s with Excalibur while knowing that you can not proc it on the 1st hit, and it only has a chance to proc on Double Attacks in the event they occur seems to be a flawed idea on how to use the weapon, and it seems as if you would be better off without any En-spell at all.

Edit------------------------------------------------

Please redo your testing yourself, while removing Temper & all forms of Double Attack, and then repost your new results. If you find something different than I did I will go back and redo it for a much longer period, however so far it would seem my original findings were correct for now.

I'm not going to go back and do my testing because my testing is my playing. When I said I'm RDM over 90% of the time I meant it. It goes off all the time for me. On the first hit, on the second hit. You read the chat log. If you've done all your Killshot trials for KoR, hopefully you've done them in aby and you had on Apoc and Lion to speed that up and make KoR hit harder.

Do your own homework or remain ignorant.

[Lilia]

Yeah......I don't think so. Even the best of the best geared melee RDM isnt coming close to a BLU. RDM doesn't have access to the kind of gear BLU does.

1. RDM dont have access to the kind of blu gear- thats true~not the 10+item/slot, BUT rdm have little stars 1-2/slot

2. Many BLUs play ... Dmgspell,dmgspell,dmgspell,selfsc,dmg..... 0 MP and then?
When were speak from the first min, rdm cant beat blu, but when were speak the min. after that rdm can!!!!!!!!!
I have see that so many times, and i can say that my RDM > my BLU in dot dmg.

[Demon6324236]

Do your own homework or remain ignorant.The sad thing is you wish to argue the point with me when I did my homework & tried it. The fact your idea was to use Triple Attack Atma to speed up the testing in itself shows that your idea of testing it was flawed from the start because that would taint your results more than help. In fact the very first thing you said in this post is
I'm not going to go back and do my testingand yet you wish to tell me to do my homework or remain ignorant. I advise you to take the same advice, or show proof somehow that you are correct. Simply stating it will get you no where with me seeing as I already did my test of it, albeit short, but still around 300+ attacks I am sure, which means with the 10% proc rate you said HP procs have, I should have had 30. The chances in those 300 strikes with a 10% proc rate I would get nothing but En-2 effects seems unlikely at best.

Please redo your testing before insulting me further by assuming I was to foolish to understand how things work. Playing RDM alot is nice, I do it too, but I can tell you from my experience that what you are saying is wrong. If you are correct, then please show proof of it, redo your tests, and then my position will change accordingly. As for now you have given me no reason why my test would be incorrect, and rather instead told me how your test, or playtime, may be false results.

[Demon6324236]

If you compared to 95% of blus on server it would, since most of the blus on a server are wearing absolute junk, or fulltiming 5/5 emp

Seems to me that 95% of RDMs do the same so really not a good comparison, if talking a good BLU vs a good RDM then BLU most likely wins in DD for a few reasons, Temper & Gain spells do put us more in the race than a few months ago though.

[Plasticleg]

>.< junk

Maybe you have only joytoy and relict af2 for melee, THEN you weaker as other melee jobs.....

The prob is not Rdm cant melee good enough, the prob is when rdm go with ~lvl75 equip.

Rly good equip Rdm can pull out good dmg. and can beat easy 08/15 blus,thfs,

Say the rdm cant good melee is junk......

on trash mobs

[ManaKing]

woo turns out I double attack a lot since that is where all my proc are. Oh well Enspells are still broke. Still like my excal. Have fun equiping your RDMs for DEX and crit.

Dear SE, fix enspells when next expansion comes out.

[Nawesemo]

Soooooo..... New gear make happy Rdms?, or just incite the mob to scream its not enough?

[Demon6324236]

I like my Excalibur as well. I was not saying anything against that so I hope you didn't take it that way, I simply wished to correct that info because it was likely lowering your damage quite a bit seeing as you were probably losing more than 50% of your chances for the additional effect to proc.

In either case I agree enspells should be fixed, they should be the lowest priority of additional effects, or what they really should do is allow enspells to stack with other additional effects overall. The fact enspells & other effects do not stack is another reason why /DNC falls far behind /NIN, seeing as you have to lower DPS by giving up Excalibur procs or Enspells, so you can get samba effects. Also it lowers the power of Excalibur over all thanks to the enspells being given up.

[Demon6324236]

New gear is good, some of it is even great like Vara Brigandine, however I would like to point out that some past gear is still better for other jobs such as BLU. The new DEX head for instance is really nice, but at the same time it seems to just be a Oce-1

Bendis's Hairpin
Head
HP-50 DEX+10 AGI+10 Evasion+8
Haste+6%
Lv99 All Jobs

Ocelo. Headpiece
Head
DEF:31 DEX+12 AGI+12 Haste+6%
Adds "Regen" effect Set: "Triple Attack"+3%
LV 95 MNK THF BST RNG NIN BLU COR PUP DNCIn terms of use at least. So to give my opinion on the gear. I love that we are getting more great gear, it shows the same way as it did when we got Bregos, which is great gear as well, however for many jobs the gear from VW & AF3 are still top tier gear, and since we were left out of it, I think that is going to hurt us for a very long time, until something comes along that is better than those, and RDM is allowed to use.

[saevel]

Access to gear is the primary reason RDM lags behind so much, the second reason is no access to DWIII and Bergressor at the same time. RDM's can make up for part of that via Composure + Temper + Gain-Stat + Enspell 1 (all assuming 500 enhancing) + Dia III but your still lagging.

[Sarick]

GIVE ME (with chainspell) DEMI OR GIVE ME DEATH!

Retired RDM, it sucks that bad, really.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

woo turns out I double attack a lot since that is where all my proc are. Oh well Enspells are still broke. Still like my excal. Have fun equiping your RDMs for DEX and crit.

Dear SE, fix enspells when next expansion comes out.

All we can hope for is a fix when Runic Fencer comes out.

[Lilia]

on trash mobs

RDM 49 and think you know what good rdm can do?

[Plasticleg]

RDM 49 and think you know what good rdm can do?

^whm mule^

knowledge of the game, as well.

[ManaKing]

Inventory space is still a big issue on RDM

[Demon6324236]

Agreed, running around on my RDM I often have as little as 10 spaces to use for anything, which is highly limiting and makes it hard to do much on it because even if you can do something, you don't have the room to hold the spoils.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Inventory is an issue for many jobs, I rarely have more space than that unless I'm on war and don't need to proc multiple weaponskills

SE needs to look into it or doing what they did with HQ staves and consolidating redundant gear into one piece

[Lilia]

^whm mule^

knowledge of the game, as well.

wow that is the answer?
come in and post ~ trash mobs~ that i hate,

say what you think, why you think rdm melee is bad? what meleedmg is bad for you?

/sigh game or forum , other jobs say what rdm cann do or not
and when you have luck is a alljobs abyss pl

[Plasticleg]

wow that is the answer?
come in and post ~ trash mobs~ that i hate,

say what you think, why you think rdm melee is bad? what meleedmg is bad for you?

/sigh game or forum , other jobs say what rdm cann do or not
and when you have luck is a alljobs abyss pl

shit attack buffs, low selection of gear, and minimal bonuses with enspell with relic/almace combos.

have you been reading any of this thread?

[Lilia]

i say that a 2 time, rdm have not so much equip like blu or other melee, but have enough good items.
enspell 2 sux not enspell 1(ok not with relic) but the bonus is ok for all hits, and rdm hits quick and good DA

i stop that, think what you want think,

[saevel]

wow that is the answer?
come in and post ~ trash mobs~ that i hate,

say what you think, why you think rdm melee is bad? what meleedmg is bad for you?

/sigh game or forum , other jobs say what rdm cann do or not
and when you have luck is a alljobs abyss pl

He's trolling people hoping for a response and some attention. Just add him to your ignore list and they'll eventually go away. Only sane response.

[Plasticleg]

He's trolling people hoping for a response and some attention. Just add him to your ignore list and they'll eventually go away. Only sane response.

not trolling, just because someone disagrees strongly with your PoV makes not a troll.

trolling would be saying, "wait, rdm has sword skill?"

[Daniel_Hatcher]

not trolling, just because someone disagrees strongly with your PoV makes not a troll.

trolling would be saying, "wait, rdm has sword skill?"


In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[3]extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[4] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[5] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

[Plasticleg]

"off topic" making this whole detour (mostly me, you and saev) troll-arific.

reading comprehension :/

[Tamarsamar]

I liked the part where the thread got genuinely on-topic for a moment, when discussing gear deficiency as one of the flaws Red Mage has.

I would like to point out that earlier ManaKing made a quip about not using CDC for not having access to Athos's set, and take this chance to reiterate WHY?

[Demon6324236]

I liked the part where the thread got genuinely on-topic for a moment, when discussing gear deficiency as one of the flaws Red Mage has.

I would like to point out that earlier ManaKing made a quip about not using CDC for not having access to Athos's set, and take this chance to reiterate WHY?

Athos is a great set stacked with both DEX & Crit power. RDM's best, and to my knowledge, only gear for crits are really Nef & Rancor. This along with the poor DEX gear RDM generally gets is the main problem with CDC/Almace.

If you look, currently our arguably best head is Maat's Cap, body is either Ant, or Kudzu, hands are Alucinor Mitts, legs are Tumbler Trunks, and feet are Lithe Boots. Athos would smash most of this gear by far, and is much more useful. Athos Boots trump Lithe in every way, Athos Gloves are a Maat's Cap on your hands, and beat out Alucinor, Athos legs may lack the Attack of Tumbler but make up for it in the crit damage+, and the body has tons of DEX along with the crit damage, not to mention the set bonus effect of crit rate+ which we would get from it, it over all is a massive player.

In the end admittedly RDM lacks DEX gear & Crit gear, which is why Excalibur is much more on par with it than it would be with Athos. Much of the same can be said of Oce/Toci's but I have said that many times all over the place & don't want to re-explain how good Oce/Toci's would be both for TP & WSing on RDM. In the end they are very big players with CDC & Almace, that is the reason of why.



To put it in easier terms I suppose, and a much more simple way, RDM lacks the DEX/Crit gear to make CDC truely as useful as it could, just look at these 2 sets.


What RDM has (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/260965) - What RDM needs (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/273223)
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i372/demon6324236/RDMCDC.png

[ManaKing]

You can burn your expansion gear into WS pieces for crit/damage, I have an Aug Light earring with Crit chance on it, and there is also Oneiros Knife for Crit Damage. (which no one will agree to use because it's not a STR Shikagar in your offhand)

That's why I say there isn't good gear for Almace. Not to mention no space in your inventory to fit if, if you actually have mage gear.

[Demon6324236]

I would think Brutal & Moon would beat crit earrings myself. The dagger isn't to good cause it lowers DPS to much to be worth using for WS alone. The augmented gear is probably not much of a step up in damage outside of events where Almace is already superior thanks to potency or atma effects.

When it comes down to it its just easy to say, RDM gets bad gear for CDC. That is not to say however that CDC is bad for RDM. The WS has its use in certain events, and outside of them as well. It really depends on what you gear up for and what you want to gear up for, RDM gear for CDC lacks far behind BLU, but on its own it stands up to KoR & Req with Excalibur, which makes it good enough to use, but not necessarily the be all end all.

[Tamarsamar]

To clarify, my "WHY" was more "WHY don't Red Mages have access to Athos's Tabard set, that's just plain cruel," not "WHY is this a big deal for CDC," though I do appreciate you enumerating the latter, anyway.

[Demon6324236]

Ah well, in that case I would agree. I don't understand why Pink, Athos, and Oce, was all kept away from us when it would be the melee gear to go with our massive abundance of mage gear.

[saevel]

I would think Brutal & Moon would beat crit earrings myself. The dagger isn't to good cause it lowers DPS to much to be worth using for WS alone.

They do. Moon is basically crit hit+ and Brutal increase's chance for DA on first two hits. Str Sword is your best off hand for it unless your at capped attack.

RDM's DEX gear is ~blah~, it's not bad but it really does need more. RDM should of been on Toci's / Athos but Tanaka in his infinite wisdom things RDM is "a very powerful job" and put it the gear set that is completely useless to RDM. Not much we can do about it for now, once gear is released SE is incredibly resistant to changing it. Their releasing new Morrigans gear and that's what I'll be looking forward to. Though honestly, Mercy Stroke should be pretty good with some of the Dux+1 we can get. 3.0 fTP with two hits, 60% STR and 40% damage boost to go with it's extremely nice DPS and enspell effects.

[Demon6324236]

Well the gear we were put on isn't really useless to RDM either. Heka's is amazing for healing as RDM, Rubeus legs are good for low acc situations and the best WS piece for KoR & Req, Rubeus hands are better than our AF3 hands for Enfeebling if only by a little and only without Sabo. There are a few pieces we did get worth using, but overall its the fact that we didn't get any melee gear during what I would say was a gear goldenage for most jobs seeing as the gear gotten from it is so good it will be in use for a very, very, long time.

[ManaKing]

They do. Moon is basically crit hit+ and Brutal increase's chance for DA on first two hits. Str Sword is your best off hand for it unless your at capped attack.

RDM's DEX gear is ~blah~, it's not bad but it really does need more. RDM should of been on Toci's / Athos but Tanaka in his infinite wisdom things RDM is "a very powerful job" and put it the gear set that is completely useless to RDM. Not much we can do about it for now, once gear is released SE is incredibly resistant to changing it. Their releasing new Morrigans gear and that's what I'll be looking forward to. Though honestly, Mercy Stroke should be pretty good with some of the Dux+1 we can get. 3.0 fTP with two hits, 60% STR and 40% damage boost to go with it's extremely nice DPS and enspell effects.

Mandau would be an amazing offhand if you could get the +Attack off it as well. Double Relics would have made RDM pretty reasonable.


Well the gear we were put on isn't really useless to RDM either. Heka's is amazing for healing as RDM, Rubeus legs are good for low acc situations and the best WS piece for KoR & Req, Rubeus hands are better than our AF3 hands for Enfeebling if only by a little and only without Sabo. There are a few pieces we did get worth using, but overall its the fact that we didn't get any melee gear during what I would say was a gear goldenage for most jobs seeing as the gear gotten from it is so good it will be in use for a very, very, long time.

We have good gear if you don't want RDM to be a real DD. If you're diehard for RDMs utility to be damage, then SE didn't give you what you wanted.

[Fupafighter]

Put rdm on thaumas. There.

[Fupafighter]

I mean rdm did get lucky when they introduced nyzle gear. That stuff owns as far as nuke sets go. But their TP sets suck.

[Demon6324236]

We have good gear if you don't want RDM to be a real DD. If you're diehard for RDMs utility to be damage, then SE didn't give you what you wanted.

I should have said it differently I suppose. Look at every set of gear, I mean Perle/Pink/Teal, AF3, Fazheluo/Mextli/Anhur, Mekira/Toci's/Heka's, Ogier/Athos/Rubeus, Phorcys/Thaumas/Nares. This is what I meant by our abundance of mage gear, on each of these sets we get the mage gear set, never any melee in any of it, not even our final JSE/Artifact Set. I myself find it somewhat weird that in the end SE gave BLU a good mix it seemed, their AF got some melee, and some mage, stats, they got Pink, and Teal as well. I don't recall if they got any more mage gear in the sets after that point, but I cant help but wonder why we cant be put on a good light DD set from an event to make up for the loss of AF3 which we got pure mage gear for. AF3 gear is great for haste in the places it gives on jobs, and those pieces are likely to stay competitive for a long time, where as RDM will never have access to that kind of resource because we never get the Light DD sets.

[Ophannus]

RDM doesn't get high DEX gear since they assume most RDMs with Composure and 500 enhancing skill will just Gain-DEX(which lasts like 12-15min) and gives +25 DEX which is decently substantial

[Demon6324236]

25 DEX is good and all but we still lose out on alot of Crit gear. Going back to the sets I showed last page, the set with Athos has 16 more DEX, so we do make this up with Gain-DEX admittedly, however it has +9% Crit damage, and +6% Crit rate. So while RDM can make up the DEX it can not begin to do make up for the crit stats of the gear.

To add onto that, it seems fairly foolish to base RDM's gear selection off of the idea all RDMs would have 500 Enhancing Magic when in reality its more that only really good RDM's, or RDM mains probably have that.