The Problem with Red Mage . . .

[ManaKing]

I should have said it differently I suppose. Look at every set of gear, I mean Perle/Pink/Teal, AF3, Fazheluo/Mextli/Anhur, Mekira/Toci's/Heka's, Ogier/Athos/Rubeus, Phorcys/Thaumas/Nares. This is what I meant by our abundance of mage gear, on each of these sets we get the mage gear set, never any melee in any of it, not even our final JSE/Artifact Set. I myself find it somewhat weird that in the end SE gave BLU a good mix it seemed, their AF got some melee, and some mage, stats, they got Pink, and Teal as well. I don't recall if they got any more mage gear in the sets after that point, but I cant help but wonder why we cant be put on a good light DD set from an event to make up for the loss of AF3 which we got pure mage gear for. AF3 gear is great for haste in the places it gives on jobs, and those pieces are likely to stay competitive for a long time, where as RDM will never have access to that kind of resource because we never get the Light DD sets.

IDK, maybe because they finally gave us a good WS based off mage stats? You're turning into a broken record. Wait for new gear patiently, or don't, but saying we don't have enough DEX gear and crit support for CDC again really isn't changing anything.

[Demon6324236]

IDK, maybe because they finally gave us a good WS based off mage stats? You're turning into a broken record. Wait for new gear patiently, or don't, but saying we don't have enough DEX gear and crit support for CDC again really isn't changing anything.

WSs are pointless without the TP to use them. To TP we need TP gear. We are constantly left out of the Light DD sets of which are built very well for just such TPing. Also as you point out alot we don't get the 1 trait that would make all of our mage gear give us the TP to use. This is where my problem stems from so far as many gear sets. As for the DEX gear & crit situation, notice I am simply pointing it out in other posts, not trying to say we need more and they need to give us more, but rather that it is the cause of CDC falling behind others. I ask you, could you honestly tell me Req would be very good for RDM if we had access to Athos?

The sets I listed are the gear sets of which are used alot because they are some of the best pieces of gear in the game, above all others, and yet RDM has gotten no access to them. Ignoring CDC, just simply in terms of gear it puts us outside of that grade of gear which scars RDM's ability to melee in the long run, because while jobs like BLU will always have Thaumas, Oce/Toci's, and Athos to fall back on, RDM doesn't have the same kind of gear, if we only get half decent things in the future, we already only got half decent things in the past, so we are kinda screwed. And as for it not changing anything, the only way to make sure SE knows we do not like things about what they give us, is to point it out every 5 minutes.

[Afania]

I should have said it differently I suppose. Look at every set of gear, I mean Perle/Pink/Teal, AF3, Fazheluo/Mextli/Anhur, Mekira/Toci's/Heka's, Ogier/Athos/Rubeus, Phorcys/Thaumas/Nares. This is what I meant by our abundance of mage gear, on each of these sets we get the mage gear set, never any melee in any of it, not even our final JSE/Artifact Set. I myself find it somewhat weird that in the end SE gave BLU a good mix it seemed, their AF got some melee, and some mage, stats, they got Pink, and Teal as well. I don't recall if they got any more mage gear in the sets after that point, but I cant help but wonder why we cant be put on a good light DD set from an event to make up for the loss of AF3 which we got pure mage gear for. AF3 gear is great for haste in the places it gives on jobs, and those pieces are likely to stay competitive for a long time, where as RDM will never have access to that kind of resource because we never get the Light DD sets.

BLU doesn't get all the mage gears in this game though, some mage gear is still usable by RDM but not BLU. BLU also can't use magian staff but RDM can use both staff and sword.

[Demon6324236]

BLU doesn't get all the mage gears in this game though, some mage gear is still usable by RDM but not BLU. BLU also can't use magian staff but RDM can use both staff and sword.

Perle/Pink/Teal
AF3
Fazheluo/Mextli/Anhur
Mekira/Toci's/Heka's
Ogier/Athos/Rubeus
Phorcys/Thaumas/Nares
From the list, 2 things I know for sure they got, Pink & AF3. Even these 2 sets alone give BLU something.

Looking at Pink, a Double Attack body, which is actually not a bad TP body were RDM able to use it, its not Kudzu nor Shedir, but then again its only 5000 Cruor and beats out alot of bodies RDM has, I myself currently use Antares Harness for lack of something better, but I would use pink if given the option. The rest of Pink are decent Haste pieces, nothing big enough to be worth it once you are well geared, but something.

Looking at AF3+2.
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/3/3d/Mavi_Kavuk_%2B2_description.png
"Accuracy+12 Sword skill +7 Haste+6%" this is great, better than anything RDM gets ahold of for TPing as a head piece, Accuracy, some Attack from skill, and a massive Haste boost, RDM will never get this in their AF.
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/e/e5/Mavi_Mintan_%2B2_description.png
"Accuracy+12 Haste+3%" A Haste body with some nice Acc at the same time, something we never really see as RDM.
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/d/db/Mavi_Tayt_%2B2_description.png
These legs are not only good for CDC, they have 4% Haste, the most Haste that would be available for RDM were they given the exact same gear.

Now I'm not saying give RDM the exact same gear, and this may be argued as relatively pointless by some people, but myself I think of this gear as something they can use. RDM has no access to this, we have no good gear of the past to rely on when going into the future, so if we get bad gear, or only halfway decent gear, while everyone else is getting Thaumas 2.0 we will be easily left behind. So far we have very basic builds for TP it seems, our Haste gear is kinda dumbed down when you think about the fact any good RDM TP build seems to need either a Haste body with half mage stats on it, or a Zelus, to cap Haste. Were some of our AF3 given Haste, or we were given some of the other Light DD sets, this may not be the case. And I know BLU didn't get alot of mage sets, but thing about it, we didn't get any of the melee sets, so it is lopsided no matter how you look at it.

As I said, I take what we have had recently as a golden-age of gear, as most of this gear we have now will be very hard for SE to beat, look at Neo-Limbus/Odin for example, where to my knowledge most gear was ignored because it wasn't good enough for the effort. If I'm wrong, please correct me, but if thats the case, then we may have gotten all of the most important gear, and now RDM will have to scrap for the failed attempts to usurp that amazing gear, like Shedir. Not that those pieces of gear are bad, but when it comes down to it, which would you rather...

This...
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/6/62/Shedir_Manteel_description.png
or this?
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/b/b6/Thaumas_Coat_description.png
And I think we all know the answer to that.

[Demon6324236]

The TP build I wish RDM had. (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/273402)

[ManaKing]

I ask you, could you honestly tell me Req would be very good for RDM if we had access to Athos?


Yes. It deals NonElemental Damage. It does well against targets that most WS do poorly against. If you have the gorget and belt and tp bonus from Moonshade, then you have a 6-8 hit WS that deals solid damage to anything in the game. It's only weakness is extremely high defense mobs...darn it's not wildfire.

We didn't get a good MAB elemental WS, which still stings and does suck. But for not getting that, we sure did get something that doesn't suck.

The TP gain is still an issue and I think would be easily remedied by generous amount of AO and an offhand that steals TP and sets up better TP builds....like an Ephemeron. Pop Spontaneity, Cast Impact, WS. Convert? Yes/No?

[ManaKing]

I'm hoping that the new Morrigan's is something special for RDM. Haste/Refresh on the body would be great. Affinity on pieces wouldn't hurt. Morrigan's set is an actual mage hybrid set, so here's to hoping it actually has real toys on it for us.

[Demon6324236]

That would work. But I admit after looking at the gear you really can not get 11STR 22Attack in a TP build with Ephemeron that you lose from the Shikargar, not that it is so terrible that you shouldn't use Ephemeron, but is it a point they made & is valid. For Impact to give us enough TP for what you suggest we would need at least 12.5~15% of the MP back in TP, which means T5~6 of OA. The chances of us getting T5~6 of it would be highly unlikely so I doubt even were we to get that trait we would be able to do this even.

As for Req being non-elemental, even with this being the case you have to also understand the WS is situational. CDC is good in a number of places, where as with Athos on RDM Req would likely only win in cases where mobs are resistant to Slashing or have PDT. Also on anything with high defense, Req falls apart, where as CDC stays strong.

What I dont get is you seem to be defending SE's choice to give us nearly pure mage gear and leave us off of good Light DD gear, which makes little sense with how much time you say you spend on RDM. I would think you would agree with me that we need more gear on all sides of melee, rather than seemingly oppose me.

[Demon6324236]

I'm hoping that the new Morrigan's is something special for RDM. Haste/Refresh on the body would be great. Affinity on pieces wouldn't hurt. Morrigan's set is an actual mage hybrid set, so here's to hoping it actually has real toys on it for us.

It would be nice, however I fear its going to be more scraps, gear RDM will see as good, while other jobs on it such as BLU wont look at it twice in preference of other gear such as Thaumas.

[saevel]

That would work. But I admit after looking at the gear you really can not get 11STR 22Attack in a TP build with Ephemeron that you lose from the Shikargar, not that it is so terrible that you shouldn't use Ephemeron, but is it a point they made & is valid. For Impact to give us enough TP for what you suggest we would need at least 12.5~15% of the MP back in TP, which means T5~6 of OA. The chances of us getting T5~6 of it would be highly unlikely so I doubt even were we to get that trait we would be able to do this even.

There isn't a gear set that makes Eph better then STR Shikagar, I've looked for one.


As for Req being non-elemental, even with this being the case you have to also understand the WS is situational. CDC is good in a number of places, where as with Athos on RDM Req would likely only win in cases where mobs are resistant to Slashing or have PDT. Also on anything with high defense, Req falls apart, where as CDC stays strong.

He's using hyperbole, it doesn't need "extremely high defense" it only needs to be higher level then you for Req to fall on it's face. If RDM had access to berserk and DW at the same time then it might be a bit more feasible but as it stands that 20% easily push's you under 1.0 cRatio on most anything above your level. We're 99 not 75, "above your level" includes level 100 or higher monsters. CDC pretty much crush's it on most everything that isn't fodder, especially once you take into account ODD procs. Req is for fighting things with PDT, slimes, skeles, elementals and the like. In those situations it's amazing.


What I dont get is you seem to be defending SE's choice to give us nearly pure mage gear and leave us off of good Light DD gear, which makes little sense with how much time you say you spend on RDM. I would think you would agree with me that we need more gear on all sides of melee, rather than seemingly oppose me.

He's cheerleading that's all. RDM has kicked in the crotch in the gear department, mage wise we're set but melee is just a disaster. You can do work with it and sprinkle large amounts of pixie dust, but it won't hold a candle to what other light DD jobs can build. It gets worse once you introduce external support to the picture.

[Tamarsamar]

The thing about Ephemeron is that even if the Haste alone does not trade favorably with the STR Shikargar's stats in terms of gear allowed for TP (which is actually pretty realistic), to truly evaluate Ephemeron's worth is to determine how much more quickly on average Ephemeron's TP Drain effect lets you spam Weapon Skills. And I hear that Ephemeron's TP Drain is actually pretty potent.

(On a perhaps lesser note, the TP Drain does imply that you're depriving the mob of TP to some extent, which may or may not be valuable in and of itself, depending on the situation.)

[Demon6324236]

I have often brought up the TP drain, however in any serious talk about Ephemeron it has always been seemingly ignored. The reason for this is unknown to me, as I would think it would give excellent reason to use it, especially with Almace seeing as you could do a Light SC if proced at the right time. However seeing as its always ignored I have chosen to leave it out of talking here. Once I get it and see it for myself I plan to attempt to find its proc rate. After that, I will use it in my comparisons because I will have more definitive numbers for it.

However if AH.com's SCs are anything of evidence I will definatly say the potency is great.

http://static.ffxiah.com/images/ss/full/35x60v35534Uk90N.jpg

http://static.ffxiah.com/images/ss/full/Y97h1LZbm3kYm561.jpg

http://static.ffxiah.com/images/ss/full/jJeS1yb3gHVRpyDw.jpg
Guessing the 7TP was soon after a TP, cant tell.
http://static.ffxiah.com/images/ss/full/2YttJjOy3t2La6J2.jpg

[saevel]

Demon6324236,

What do all of those monsters have in common?

Eph suffers the same fate as nearly every other add effect weapon in the game, vs anything above your level it's proc rate and effectiveness rapidly diminishes, especially on NMs. It's SE's way of being stupid, they give it a powerful effect with a lowish proc rate but then nerf the sh!t out of it on any remotely dangerous to maintain "barance". Better to have a weaker effect that consistently procs (wind knife off that bird) then to have one that fluctuates and is rendered useless on hard stuff.

The reason it gets ignored is that on anything worth fighting it won't be a factor.

[Demon6324236]

I do not yet have Ephemeron so I wouldn't know. I also don't often use Additional Effect things as they normally don't seem to be worth using. If your right then yeah its not all to good if Ephemeron does good on higher NMs still then good, it could be worth it. In either case its the reason I never bring it up as a factor for that swords utility.

[ManaKing]

That would work. But I admit after looking at the gear you really can not get 11STR 22Attack in a TP build with Ephemeron that you lose from the Shikargar, not that it is so terrible that you shouldn't use Ephemeron, but is it a point they made & is valid. For Impact to give us enough TP for what you suggest we would need at least 12.5~15% of the MP back in TP, which means T5~6 of OA. The chances of us getting T5~6 of it would be highly unlikely so I doubt even were we to get that trait we would be able to do this even.

As for Req being non-elemental, even with this being the case you have to also understand the WS is situational. CDC is good in a number of places, where as with Athos on RDM Req would likely only win in cases where mobs are resistant to Slashing or have PDT. Also on anything with high defense, Req falls apart, where as CDC stays strong.

What I dont get is you seem to be defending SE's choice to give us nearly pure mage gear and leave us off of good Light DD gear, which makes little sense with how much time you say you spend on RDM. I would think you would agree with me that we need more gear on all sides of melee, rather than seemingly oppose me.

You more than make up the attack and you get a better TP build if you are talking Excal/Eph VS Almace/Shika. You can't make up the STR. You WS more. That's what I want. Using the word total damage to describe RDM is hilarious to me because it's only half a DD. You aren't meant to be good at Melee, that's why you have a B in Swords and Dagger and a D or worse in everything else. But the thing you can do well is support other Melee by opening up every single combination for Light and Dark if you have an Excalibur in your hand. Dia 3 is also nice for watching things die instantly from good SCs. KoR > Resolution = Light, Shitty RDM damage, but you double the damage of the WS that is more potent. Does that require friends and cooperation? Sure, but if you don't have those, why are you playing an online video game?

Morrigan's is not even close to pure mage gear, neither is any of the pieces in my TP set for RDM. We get pieces, they are just unpleasant to get, so I take pride in where my RDM is compared to where it was and compared to pretty much anyone else playing the job. I know that my job means something to me and I personally don't mind it being difficult to gear because it's worth it. My friends all can't believe I can do the numbers I do with a RDM, especially because we used to play with a RDM that had better gear than me that didn't know how to DPS well, so they made RDM look unattractive.

I hope you realize that Req doesnt just suddenly hit for almost no damage against mobs outside of Aby with high defense. It still does plenty. It does more consistent damage than I've ever gotten out of CDC. It's accuracy with the belt and gorget is something of a godsend since RDM has such bad accuracy. Adding .2 fTP to all attacks and then reducing the attack penalty with the Moonshade earring means that even at 100% TP, I'm still getting 6-8 good hits that get 100% of my MND, which is close to 200. As soon as I figured out how to make Req hit for good numbers I put my Almace in my locker. If I didn't have my gorget and belt and earring, I would not make my claims because I remember what the WS was like without gear, especially that gear. But that's the point. RDM has the gear for Req, it doesn't for CDC.

The non-elemental damage is a factor against every hard target in the game. Undead, Elementals, most Amorphs. What are we fighting? Doesn't really matter unless it has high defense. Even then, you guys seem to have this amazingly pessimistic view that I don't share even though I'm the one using it.

[Demon6324236]

I never said Morrigan's or the gear in your sets are pure mage gear. What I was saying is that we get the Pure Mage sets, never the Light DD sets. Not that we don't get Light DD gear, but we don't get Light DD sets, Bregos is good gear but Athos, is a good set. Shedir is not a Light DD set, it is a mage set, same as Rubeus, both have Haste gear in it with some melee stats but it doesn't mean they are Light DD sets either.

I understand much of how Req works. I remerited it and got both gorget/neck, I have been playing with it & its damage, so its not as if I am completely inexperienced with it. As with Ephemeron I try not to talk much about things I don't have personal experience with, in this case I have been using Req, KoR, and CDC. As for the accuracy, I don't understand why you couldn't use the belt for CDC if you need the Acc, and I mean really, its a DEX based WS, your stacking alot of DEX which means alot of acc in the end, so it provides its own accuracy on its own. As I have said though I know the gear difference between the WS gear of RDM & what other jobs have.

As for using Req against anything, you can use it against anything. But the bonus that was pointed out about it being a non-elemental WS and that bonus is only a bonus in some cases. When using it against anything else it loses that advantage over CDC, which was all I was saying about it being situational. Its not that it becomes worthless on anything else, but simply it loses the advantage it once had, which puts it back on even ground with CDC.

[ManaKing]

For CDC being DEX based i've seen enough wiffs and unimpressive damage come out of it. I can't say the same for Req. I don't like the extremely random nature of CDC and relying on an aftermath to make it better is sloppy play IMO. I get how it wins out, but it's not the way I would ever choose to play a DD, much less not a DD. IDK what to tell you on the light armor sets. It never bothered me since we were never on them. I would have been super pissed if we weren't on the scale mail that just came out, since we were always on scale mail.

I still get that it's not what you want, but that's honestly how it's always been. If anything CDC and Req are what is new to RDM because they had well Death Blossom for the longest time. What you can and cannot expect to find RDM on really hasn't changed, which is honestly why I'm against believing that SE will give us light armor sets. It's nowhere in our history. That's why when I see thing like Brego Gloves, I'm happy. Because normally we don't get this. We have always been on weird assortments of gear. I'm just used to it.

It's like the ogre's gear. RDM and BST? Who the hell came up with that combo? Doesn't matter, I'm going to wear it because it's good for me. Obviously, times have changed, but at the time, the set gave us a lot of Atk.

Also, you are partially correct. Morrigan's is going to come out and it's going to be redundant gear for BLU. They are going to push up their noses at it and be like, 'OMG this is barely better than my AF3+2. I need MOAR broken everything to feel good about myself.' And then i'm going to swoop in and take that shit because we will hopefully get 2 or 3 good pieces out of it. I'm personally hoping for Body over anything else to be above average for us. 1 or 2 Haste pieces would be amazing. Obviously, I'm excited because Morrigan's body could be easily upgraded with Haste and lvl appropriate stats on it and probably be one of the better hybrid bodies and probably the best Req Body....EVAR.

[Sunrider]

I still get that it's not what you want, but that's honestly how it's always been. If anything CDC and Req are what is new to RDM because they had well Death Blossom for the longest time. What you can and cannot expect to find RDM on really hasn't changed, which is honestly why I'm against believing that SE will give us light armor sets.Well if all we're supposed to do is sit on our hands and take whatever we're given without complaint, then what's the point of this forum? There are plenty of other sites to talk shop without the expectation of anything better.

Besides, what about all that scale armor to which we were privy up to about level 50? We're not without precedent for heavier armor access.

[saevel]

For CDC being DEX based i've seen enough wiffs and unimpressive damage come out of it. I can't say the same for Req.

This explains everything..... you don't actually know how damage is calculated and are just eyeballing everything.

Here's a freebie, Req is more sensitive to accuracy then CDC is, and that's before accounting for CDC's extra acc from Dex. Also CDC is a +15% crit rate @100, you have a 5% base crit rate and +5% from merits for a flat 25% chance at critting @100TP without taking into account gear or dDex. CDC is three this, four with sub, at least one hit will crit per WS on average, more if you get a decent CDC set.

The game runs on a computer, there is absolutely nothing that is truly random.

[Demon6324236]

I would have been super pissed if we weren't on the scale mail that just came out, since we were always on scale mail.Athos has my pimp hat, I used to always be on the pimp hats.

[ManaKing]

Well if all we're supposed to do is sit on our hands and take whatever we're given without complaint, then what's the point of this forum? There are plenty of other sites to talk shop without the expectation of anything better.

Besides, what about all that scale armor to which we were privy up to about level 50? We're not without precedent for heavier armor access.

Yeah, we are on scale mail....I just said that. Scale mail =/= the light armor sets we are talking about. Those are two completely different things. If you want the equivalent of Thaumus or Toci's on scale mail, then yes, Best idea ever. Just don't ask to take people's things that they aren't going to give you because it's unrealistic and know that they are not going to add you on to the gear later, because they dont do that.

[ManaKing]

This explains everything..... you don't actually know how damage is calculated and are just eyeballing everything.

Here's a freebie, Req is more sensitive to accuracy then CDC is, and that's before accounting for CDC's extra acc from Dex. Also CDC is a +15% crit rate @100, you have a 5% base crit rate and +5% from merits for a flat 25% chance at critting @100TP without taking into account gear or dDex. CDC is three this, four with sub, at least one hit will crit per WS on average, more if you get a decent CDC set.

The game runs on a computer, there is absolutely nothing that is truly random.

Wow I don't know what to tell you. You're freebie is old news and RDM still doesn't have good Crit or Dex support. Further, RDM still has bad accuracy. Further, you can't use belts and gorget to make it up, unlike me. So take your crappy condescending attitude and your lackluster-ly equipped WS and play however you want. I don't care if you never get what you want, because SE has made concessions to us already. You don't want to use Req? Fine.

The funny thing is I'm happy to play RDM exactly as it is and exactly as it's probably going to be with all of 2 grievances. Neither of them look like me pointing at a BLU and asking SE 'why am I not the thing I'm not', since that would be SELF EXPLANATORY AND STUPID. BLU has it better than us, but I don't want to be BLU. Everyone else here seems to want to just copy their winning formula of crappy broken-ness and then whines when SE has no intention of doing what it never had any intention of doing in the first place.

I want (1) Enspells that don't override Additional Affects and updated damage formulas. WHY? Because that's what a FUCKING RDM does. It hits things with FUCKING MAGIC ON IT'S SWORD (or Daggers for the classy folks out there that are into that kind of thing). Make that better and make it support additional affection such as Excalibur and Ephemeron, SINCE THOSE ARE MY PERSONAL GOALS AND WILL MAKE ME HAPPY AS A PLAYER.

(2) Occult Acumen. So DRK, BLM, and SCH can all stop using it poorly and I can make it look good. I'm a mage, so are BLM and SCH. I have elemental nukes, so does DRK. Based on DRK having the lowest tier nukes in the game and the highest tier OA, we should have the 2nd highest OA. Because we should.

That's the actual problem with RDM. It's not that it's not a BLU. It's that it didn't get what a RDM deserved to be good at Melee in a reasonable fashion that resembles RDM.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Please, do continue to prove you don't know what you're talking about



Wow I don't know what to tell you. You're freebie is old news and RDM still doesn't have good Crit or Dex support. Further, RDM still has bad accuracy. Further, you can't use belts and gorget to make it up, unlike me.

This is incredibly hilarious, mostly because of how flat out wrong it is. Any decent CDC set will have more accuracy than a Req set, even if I used a 0 acc body like Kudzu.



So take your crappy condescending attitude and your lackluster-ly equipped WS and play however you want. I don't care if you never get what you want, because SE has made concessions to us already. You don't want to use Req? Fine.


Except I never said don't use Requiescat. You're simply biased into thinking it's twice as good as CDC when it isn't. 90 Almace vs 95 Excal, Excal is better by around 3-5% overall on DC mobs. 99 vs 99 is practically no difference between either.

[Demon6324236]

Neither of them look like me pointing at a BLU and asking SE 'why am I not the thing I'm not'

I don't want RDM to be a BLU, I want better TP options and some of the light DD sets for once so we have a more competitive DPS with other jobs which are light DDs as we should be. BLU has its own bag of tricks vastly different to RDM's, we have no interchangeable traits, nor do we have the ability to use mobs attacks, we have magic that is the same as a gimpified version of WHM & BLMs spell lists, with a few extra things here & there. We should have a decent DPS, not WAR, no, thats the other 3rd of the job, WAR+BLM+WHM, and seeing as we got gimpified WHM & BLM magic with a few tweaks, as well as the gear to go with that, why cant we have gimpified DD with a few tweaks. Gimpified DD would be, Light DD power, with the tweak of maybe a little elemental magic damage when we hit, like say, enspells. The vast difference here is when you look at gear. Mage gear, we get alot of, melee gear, we get some of, mage gear, we get put on every set practically, melee, we get put on no sets at all.

Asking for the same sort of gear selection BLU has =/= asking for RDM to become BLU.

[ManaKing]

99 vs 99 is practically no difference between either. There sure isn't, besides preference.


You're simply biased into thinking it's twice as good as CDC when it isn't.
Nope, it's just as good and significantly more consistent, which is what I want. I want to hit for similar numbers most of the time and occasionally deal with some ups and some downs.

I'd rather do between 2-3K consistently and almost never go below 1.6k than deal with doing less. Most I've hit for outside of aby is 4k against mobs in dynamis. That's not bragging, I didn't think I would ever hit that hard with it. That was with dia 3 and full TP and all 8 hits. It's that nice 2-3K area that I hang out in that I care about.

I don't appreciate people telling me that Almace and CDC are better than Excal and Req when I know they are the same but different. I don't care about how high CDC numbers go in cliche situations. That doesn't interest me in the slightest. I care about consistency in WSs, which is something RDM lacked, unless you count being consistently bad at them.

I can only watch my character Z snap so much before I look for something different.

[Neisan_Quetz]

... Just what the heck are you talking about

It's like you don't know how an average works




There sure isn't, besides preference.
Nope, it's just as good and significantly more consistent, which is what I want. I want to hit for similar numbers most of the time and occasionally deal with some ups and some downs.


This makes absolutely no sense.



I'd rather do between 2-3K consistently and almost never go below 1.6k than deal with doing less. Most I've hit for outside of aby is 4k against mobs in dynamis. That's not bragging, I didn't think I would ever hit that hard with it. That was with dia 3 and full TP and all 8 hits. It's that nice 2-3K area that I hang out in that I care about.

Except you completely ignore the average damage, cherry pick low values for CDC (bringing up accuracy issues on most DC mobs is laughable and I'll have to tell you stop meleeing if that's the case) and highs for Req, then call CDC inconsistent. BMN syndrome on DC mobs, on Rdm of all jobs.



I don't appreciate people telling me that Almace and CDC are better than Excal and Req when I know they are the same but different. I don't care about how high CDC numbers go in cliche situations. That doesn't interest me in the slightest. I care about consistency in WSs, which is something RDM lacked, unless you count being consistently bad at them.

So they're different but the same? Do you even know what you're talking about? I gave you a situation of mobs I believe Rdm melee is acceptable and how either weapon performed. On higher mobs Req falls flat on its face, but I didn't bring this up because right now I don't recommend Rdm meleeing on such mobs unless the situation calls for it.



I can only watch my character Z snap so much before I look for something different.

This has nothing to do with how good either WS is at all.

[ManaKing]

Asking for the same sort of gear selection BLU has =/= asking for RDM to become BLU.

Then ask for the same thing on Scale mail or on hybrid gear. We aren't ever going to get on the Light DD set, because they said no and they have always said no. I understand what you are asking for and I'm only saying it's unrealistic because you are asking for something they will say no to on default. RDM doesn't go on Light DD armor sets, next question.

So go around the issue and ask for something you'll actually get. If you want to wear Light DD armor, assemble the stray pieces you want that we are getting access to. If you want a Set of armor, actually ask for one we are allowed to be on. Don't look at any other job. Look at RDM. Just look at what gear we get put on. And ask for it there.

[ManaKing]

... Just what the heck are you talking about

It's like you don't know how an average works

You can keep attacking me personally, but I think I'll just ignore you since you don't really contribute anyways. Just a bunch of insulting one liners about how smart you think you are and how you think everyone else doesn't know how the game works if they don't agree with your view point.

I really don't think you read what people write. You just pick it apart and try not to have an actual conversation.

[Demon6324236]

Ok well for now goin by the logic you used, I ask for Athos due to my pimp hat being in that set, but I think SE would sooner change the model of the gear before giving it to RDM. I already said I want RDM to have the kinda stats were startin to see come out, my only thing is, like I said before, as we move forward the gear we got in the past will still be great, and we have no access which limits our progress. We are reliant on getting good gear from here on out, bad gear means we have little to fall back on while other jobs have tons of amazing gear in their past they have complete access to even if the future fails them.

In either case I have no wish to argue about it, I was simply pointing out how I see all of this, and it seems the past will be RDM's future downfall because we have to get alot of good gear consistently, and that doesn't seem likely to me.

[Neisan_Quetz]

No, just you really have shown almost no clue in what you're talking about in terms of game mechanics, bring up anecdotal and flawed evidence, then when asked to back up your statements start whining about how Rdm's gear options suck and your opinion has merit because you bring a flawed job to events it clearly performs lackluster in

Don't even try to act like a victim here

I've admitted twice already in this thread I rarely see eye to eye to Saev and am even less inclined to defend him, yet he's brought up more solid points to his argument in 2 posts than you have in all of yours, who is not reading again?




I really don't think you read what people write. You just pick it apart and try not to have an actual conversation.

So you can't refute any of my points, and instead ignore them

Concession accepted, I've wasted enough time with you.

[ManaKing]

Ok well for now goin by the logic you used, I ask for Athos due to my pimp hat being in that set, but I think SE would sooner change the model of the gear before giving it to RDM. I already said I want RDM to have the kinda stats were startin to see come out, my only thing is, like I said before, as we move forward the gear we got in the past will still be great, and we have no access which limits our progress. We are reliant on getting good gear from here on out, bad gear means we have little to fall back on while other jobs have tons of amazing gear in their past they have complete access to even if the future fails them.

In either case I have no wish to argue about it, I was simply pointing out how I see all of this, and it seems the past will be RDM's future downfall because we have to get alot of good gear consistently, and that doesn't seem likely to me.

Ok now I can see where you're going with this. Fair enough. Yes, we should be on Athos, because they stole our MFing pimp hat. Agreed. But that's it. If it has a pimp hat, we deserve to be on it via pimp hat and not because it makes sense otherwise.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Don't remember where I posted it, but the torque is 5% Fast Cast according to the mine.

Orunmila's Torque Rare Exclusive
Neck
MP+30 Magic Accuracy+1
"Fast Cast" effect+5 Enmity-3
Lv99 All Jobs

[Demon6324236]

Hello new best Fast Cast neck for everything outside of Utsuitsui! :D

[Manakurei]

The real problem with RDM is that our A+ enfeebling skill, and our B+ enhancement skill don't matter because the spells that players care about do not scale, and enfeeblement is pretty much LOL worthy nowadays I hear.

[Kristal]

The real problem with RDM is that our A+ enfeebling skill, and our B+ enhancement skill don't matter because the spells that players care about do not scale, and enfeeblement is pretty much LOL worthy nowadays I hear.

Immunobreak and resistance adjustments help enfeebling spells land, but it's rather pointless when those enfeebles only affect the irrelevant portion of a mob's damage output. And because those changes affect everyone, not just RDM, it's still not worth a slot. It's not like Immunobreak is RDM-unique like THF's TH bonus or WHM's curative bonusses.

[Demon6324236]

Immunobreak weirdly had the same effect on RDM I thought it would as soon as they told us about it... almost no effect at all, except potentially reducing our use even farther.

[Glamdring]

Sorry for the Necrobump people, but that's kind of the point

SE, there is ALOT of viable discussion on here about making RDM once again, well, viable. A bit of response would be welcome.

While I do now have a 99 RDM it's not a job I use except to level magic skills (and sword). I'm not serious about it at all. That being said, I ALWAYS liked working with a good rdm (and this is coming from a brd, a rival in the buffer category). I would like to be able to work with them again. Now this isn't an issue for me when I build parties, but I normally don't do so. With end-game players all but ignoring rdms though it's about the only way I ever see one. And that's a problem.

Several of my friends were career rdms, and they've all but quit. It's not a rage quit, it's a boredom quit. You can see their point. They WANT to play the job they put so much time and effort into. Unfortunately, nobody else wants them to play the job. RDM is their favorite because they liked the playstyle, but SE has killed all content that favorred it, or else passed it on to scholar. Granted, this wasn't helped by RDM's last time in the sun, as a buffer/healer for bird meripos in ToAU which had already pigeon-holed them into pretty much a single role in a party. And I understand, some of the new content that was released was built to give whm a life again. I KNOW it isn't easy to make rdm relevant without sending someone else to the scrapheap, I don't know any rdms that are asking you to do so.

But read the thread! There are alot of suggestions in here that can give rdm new life, without killing sch, whm and blu. Just consider it, get back to the real rdms here, give them some kind of meaningful hope. Yes, I know you are going all-out on a new expansion to fight Mists of Pandaria and to keep the funds of those like myself who refuse to go back to 14. But RDM has been one of the most popular jobs in XI since day one! Think about it. Many have ALWAYS loved this job, and now they don't play it at all, unless they are soloing something. That's a problem... just show SOME indication that you are going to address it?

Seriously, Geo looks like it's going to take even more of the support role support from RDM (and that role is pretty much Kaput already) and Rune Fencer looks like it's going to take the tanking magic role that rdm could easily have been slotted into with only minor tweaking.

Ok, done with my mini-rant, hope it does some good for all of my former rdm friends... good luck guys.

[Babekeke]

I second what Glamdring says. And like Glamdring, I have RDM 99, but I don't ever play it. It's only use is for FCing with a war.
However, I have RDM friends who play and gear thier job so well that they are extremely good at it despite RDMs limitations. They can backup tank, they can heal, they can hold mobs, but you'll never see a shout in jeuno specifically asking for a RDM.

And that's a shame.

[Demon6324236]

Also seems to get turned down even when offered too.

[Manakurei]

I did the only thing I could do I simply quit the game altogether. I don't feel like dealing with SE anymore, I think I'm boycotting them along with Capcom...

[ManaKing]

I did the only thing I could do I simply quit the game altogether. I don't feel like dealing with SE anymore, I think I'm boycotting them along with Capcom...

.....Quit-er........

[saevel]

Well until FFXIV offer Fencer / Red Mage as Class / Job combos, FFXI is the best place for my FF fix.

We should "see" the new RDM SP ability soon so can yell at SE about how badly it was implemented.

[Luvbunny]

Personally they don't need those two new jobs. From what I have read so far, those jobs can be repurposed into Red Mage, especially Rune Fencer. There are so many wrong about creating Rune Fencer when they actually have an existing job that be GREAT at it and has been tested in the last 10 years to be viable tank. As usual, all these valuable feedbacks are being ignored again.... Over 30 pages of comments, feedbacks and insight, and not a single response from the developer.

[tyrantsyn]

Well until FFXIV offer Fencer / Red Mage as Class / Job combos, FFXI is the best place for my FF fix.

We should "see" the new RDM SP ability soon so can yell at SE about how badly it was implemented.
You know that's going to happen, tho they have held out on any coming information on the thing since they announce it. Which does leave some hope that they took what was being said on the NA boards to heart on it. I never bother to look to see what the Jp players thought of it. I wonder if their suggestion were anything like ours.

[ManaKing]

Well until FFXIV offer Fencer / Red Mage as Class / Job combos, FFXI is the best place for my FF fix.

We should "see" the new RDM SP ability soon so can yell at SE about how badly it was implemented.

Yeah I had a discussion with someone the other day about that. They were impressed by the new cinematic and they were like, do you think the reboot for FFXIV will be any good?

I responded that it didn't have RDMs, so I don't think I would be interested. Also, they made RNG instead of THF. Apparently 4/6 is good enough for classic jobs for FFXIV.

My other jobs are BST, DRG, and DRK.....soooo 1/4 for me. FFXI is valued for it's diversity. Even though we all complain that all of our jobs need improvements and tweaks, we all like that there are as many choices as there are.

To me FFXIV feels too much like WoW for me to care about it. So you stole a ton familiarity from FFXI and wanted to make a game that follows the same business model as the most financially lucrative MMO of all time. Game isn't good enough? Quick reboot it so that players have a ton of new content to grind through. That way they never get anywhere! Yay! We make money!

Players in FFXI like that they have nice things, that's why we spend so much time getting them. I don't see anything permanent or worth attaining in FFXIV, nor have i ever seen anything in WoW worth doing.

If SE wanted to make more money off FFXI, they just have to put more money into it. We are willing to wait for you to fix your systems so we can have nice things. Being able to add more spells and job abilities is worth waiting for. If we could get some more inventory space too that would help out a lot of jobs. Taking the time to really polish all the jobs would make people want to play longer as well. An actual expansion, which we are hopefully getting sooner than later, is a great idea. But what would be an even better idea would be a graphical overhaul.

FFXI has content and goals that players can reach if they want them. That makes it a better game than most.

[saevel]

To me FFXIV feels too much like WoW for me to care about it. So you stole a ton familiarity from FFXI and wanted to make a game that follows the same business model as the most financially lucrative MMO of all time. Game isn't good enough? Quick reboot it so that players have a ton of new content to grind through. That way they never get anywhere! Yay! We make money!

"Everything feels like WoW" is getting kind of tired. It's like saying "all cars look like Ford" because they all have four weeks, use a steering wheel to control, peddles for brakes and a front windshield. Some things work well in an MMO, some things don't. FFXIV failed due to SE trying to be "different" and refusing to listen to it's beta testers when they brought up a host of issues. The reason WoW is so successful is that Blizzard is constantly doing market research and figuring out what works and what doesn't, they try to keep what works while fixing what doesn't. Their not perfect but they at least have a strategy. In FFXI SE took a "this is our vision and we don't care what you think". We've brought many things to their attention since 2003 and they've generally ignored them unless they violated the "vision" of the developers. That is why FFXI is failing (in market terms" right now, refusal of developers to alter their vision to meet evolving player demands.

The "reboot" of FFXIV has to do with the server back end architecture. The things they want to do with the game simply aren't possible with their current setup. They need to wipe the servers and rebuild, it's simpler, faster and cleaner. It will result in large amounts of character data being reset or altered. MMO's are just giant databases on the back end where all the data is manipulated. Everything you do in the game is a transaction to that database, movement, combat, monster AI, ~everything~ ends up being a transaction. So their basically rebuilding that back end set of databases to handle different things.

[Mageoholic]

The problem with RDM isn't so much in its spells, its abilities, or its gearing options. RDM is a capable healer (thanks to the recent change) RDM is a capable nuker, RDM is a capable melee contributer. These are all supported through their skill progression, their native spells and abilities, and gear.

However, Enhancing Magic and Enfeebling are not working like this, they are stuck at the 75 cap!


(may get a little mathy so stop reading here if you don't want to see why I feel this way.)


Similar to the idea I proposed with healing magic, SE needs to allow RDM to break the caps, based more on the Enfeebling Magic skills, and Enhancing magic skills (just jobs with higher healing magic skill heal for higher numbers.). There is no reason that a subjob can effectively be as useful as the main job. RDM needs to have the innate ability to have stronger spells in the schools of magic in which it has higher value than others.

Essentially this means a break point needs to be found where the old cap stays in place, and the new system enters. You could say level 75 seems like a pretty reasonable level to have new scaling become effective. Lets use haste as an example.

Haste 15%/256 = effectively that is .05% per skill point. (or 20Skill/%)

If the spell cap could be lifted based on effective magic skill value you might see this.

404/20 = 20.2% New haste value

Next closest would be WHM @
378/20 = 18.9%

Effectively not that much difference.... but look at this.
Level 49 RDM
150/20 = 7.5%... roughly 33% as effective as a 99 based on skill efficiency....yet still lands that 15%.

Cap the current haste value at level 75, and skill gained there after results in 1% increase per 20points of enhancing magic. This can be applied to all spells in a similar manner.

As for enfeebling magic lets take slow for example.

29.7%/276 = .10% every 10 skill points give +1%
424/10 = 42.4%

37/276 = .13 or 7.6 SP per 1%
424/7.6 = 55% for Slow 2.

the other aspect for enfeebling lies in MP effectiveness.
Current Slow = 29.7%/15 = 1.98%
Possible Slow = 42.4%/15 = 2.82%
Current SlowII (CAP) 37%/45 = .82%
Possible SlowII (CAP) 55%/45 = 1.2%

By adjusting the mechanics for how the caps work beyond level 75 is paramount in fixing RDM SE began untying this knot, lets keep on them to finish the job. Until the skill values of our top magic schools are reflected in our ability to cast spells is addressed no amount of additional spells or abilities will truly address the issue...that issue is why is /RDM just as effective to group play as a 99 RDM.

A level 99 Job should not be hindered by level 75 rules.

[Tamarsamar]

I'm going to bump this thread with some more food for thought:

When was the last time that somebody, in trying to low-man whatever event, considered the versatile Red Mage in their group to conserve party slots?

Now when was the last time a similar such group considered Red Mage as a waste of a party slot?

For a job marketed on versatility, the latter happening more frequently than the former is a sign that it is fundamentally broken.

----

Also, I want to take this moment to voice my concern for RDMs new SP Ability, which the devs have so far been far too silent about. I want them to know that we refuse to be complacent on this matter! Encomium was better than this "nerfed Elemental Seal on a 1-hour timer" that is, for all we know, shockingly still being considered now. If we can receive an ability more along the lines of Encomium, but with increased effectiveness and/or applications, that would be much preferred.

[Economizer]

If the spell cap could be lifted based on effective magic skill value you might see this.

404/20 = 20.2% New haste value

Next closest would be WHM @
378/20 = 18.9%

Except Light Arts instantly closes that small gap, then the top end cap of 500 Enhancing Skill hammers it into dust. I suppose you could "break" that cap, but 25% Haste at 500 skill is quite a lot.

So what would you get? Red Mage's +97 (100) in gear and then an extra 16 in merits for a maximum possible of roughly 517? I suppose you could sub Bard for Advancing March so you can cap out Dark Knights without bringing a Bard main, but the victory here is allowing Bards to drop one of their Haste songs (depending on how well geared your Bard is you'd be essentially buying 65~73 extra attack for your Party).

White Mage can get +107 (110) in gear, then an extra 16 from merits, even without Light Arts, which results in 501 skill. Basically, capable of doing the same thing but with shorter duration.

Considering the situation with Bard holding the key to all the Haste (with Scholar lockpicking it with some Embrava) this would be an interesting change for lowman, or situations where you cannot get a Bard, but I'll counter with some food for thought - most situations you have a well equipped Bard in could just as easily be served with higher tier/potency on Dia and have the same effect ultimately.


When was the last time that somebody, in trying to low-man whatever event, considered the versatile Red Mage in their group to conserve party slots?

Exactly one second before Scholar could cast Haste.

[saevel]

When was the last time that somebody, in trying to low-man whatever event, considered the versatile Red Mage in their group to conserve party slots?

We do, the jobs name is Scholar an Blue Mage. SCH beats RDM so completely and utterly in the "versatile support mage" department that it's not possible for it to be unintentional. For "versatile support melee" BLU crush's RDM in a similar fashion, it even gets light AND dark based aoe sleeps instead of the single target dark sleeps that RDM gets.

As long as those two jobs exist in the game RDM is effectively dead.

[Rustic]

We do, the jobs name is Scholar an Blue Mage. SCH beats RDM so completely and utterly in the "versatile support mage" department that it's not possible for it to be unintentional. For "versatile support melee" BLU crush's RDM in a similar fashion, it even gets light AND dark based aoe sleeps instead of the single target dark sleeps that RDM gets.

As long as those two jobs exist in the game RDM is effectively dead.

I disagree- but the only way to change it is to give RDM tools that allow it to do at least some of what BLU or SCH does in a superior fashion without replacing either.

At that point, RDM is effectively a "sidegrade", and you see RDM/BLU/SCH getting considered for similar spots.