The Melee Mage

[Tile]

Whm, Blm, Rdm, Brd, Smn, Sch
Can we get some gear for mages that like to DD up on the front lines? On sch I love tossing out buffs and attacking with my staff. I'm sure other people do as well. There is nothing wrong with a mage in a low man group getting up in ther with their staff or club. Not every mage likes to engage and attack the enemy, but some of us do. I know some mages that put 5/5 into Shattersoul.

Here is what I want.
Double, Triple, Quadruple attack, Haste and Weapon skill damage. doesn't need to be game breaking. But just alittle for us Mages that like to be up in the front with everyone else.

unless all the Wars and Monks are afraid the Mage is going to out Damage them.

[Reiterpallasch]

Suddenly, red mages. Red mages everywhere.

[Meyi]

I really enjoy meleeing as my BLM in Campaign. There's already some okay melee gear, but I would happily welcome more.

[SpankWustler]

I really enjoy meleeing as my BLM in Campaign. There's already some okay melee gear, but I would happily welcome more.

I think the mention of Campaign brings up a really good point.

There are certain situations nowadays when hitting things on a mage job is actually the best thing to do in that situation on a mage job, like Campaigning for Void Dust or duoing certain types of monsters in Dynamis.

So, even though I'm as dispassionate about hitting things with my thing as White Mage as can be, I'd be happy to have more options for those times when I end up engaging stuff for the greater good of dork-kind. In the case of some equipment slots for Scholar, Summoner, and Black Mage, I imagine they'd be happy to have any option for these times.

[Meyi]

I'd also like to see some Fast Cast gear. It seems when I do melee, I spend about 80% of my time buffing and rebuffing. I wouldn't mind if the Fast Cast gear had a latent effect: when weapon is drawn to prevent it from being used during normal situations.

[0nionKn1ght]

I think I melee'd pretty much every exp mob I fought in a party on my SMN, while main healing and using avatars (pre attack/defence separated pacts) to keep buffs up. My staff skill was always capped quickly and I was actually doing quite considerable (obviously not in line with a DD but enough to make a difference) damage to the targets, and when possible, using the club weaponskills to recover small pinches of mana every few seconds.

It doesn't need to be much, but now that we barely need to rest at all, would be nice to have an option to bash things over the head more.

[Luvbunny]

Options is always good, so that mages can melee too on situations where it is fine to do just that. For a game that touts the flexibility of support jobs, FFXI has been terrible at promoting this idea and love to put the jobs in their respective corners. And when rdms of the yesteryear started to post their accomplishment on youtube, SE decided its time to put the nerf bat on the job resulting to the feeble status of RDM nowadays. WE WANT OPTIONS!!

[Demon6324236]

I would love to see some better WS pieces for RDM! We have been getting alot of haste as of recent, so I think its time to give us better gear to use our TP with! :D

[Tamarsamar]

Suddenly, red mages. Red mages everywhere.

Noes, inb4'd! D:

By the way, there already exists the kind of gear that the OP is looking for. Off the top of my head, there's the Kthonios Mask and the Rubeus Spats.

However, as a Red Mage, I just want to mention how insulted I am personally whenever we get front line equipment grouped together with BLM, BRD, SMN, SCH, and (to a lesser extent) WHM and not BLU, because it's as if to imply that our front line capabilities are supposed to be on par with BLM, BRD, SMN, SCH, WHM . . . and not BLU.

Personally, I think that, by design, we ought to be on a level better than that. We're not supposed to be as good at Magic as, say, BLM, SMN, SCH, and WHM (and BRD is in its own spoony category of support role job that gets Mage gear, and Byakko's Haidate), so how come we're not considered better melee fighters to compensate?

My 2 gil.

[Demon6324236]

Noes, inb4'd! D:

By the way, there already exists the kind of gear that the OP is looking for. Off the top of my head, there's the Kthonios Mask and the Rubeus Spats.

However, as a Red Mage, I just want to mention how insulted I am personally whenever we get front line equipment grouped together with BLM, BRD, SMN, SCH, and (to a lesser extent) WHM and not BLU, because it's as if to imply that our front line capabilities are supposed to be on par with BLM, BRD, SMN, SCH, WHM . . . and not BLU.

Personally, I think that, by design, we ought to be on a level better than that. We're not supposed to be as good at Magic as, say, BLM, SMN, SCH, and WHM (and BRD is in its own spoony category of support role job that gets Mage gear, and Byakko's Haidate), so how come we're not considered better melee fighters to compensate?

My 2 gil.

Well RDM has been getting alot of things for Haste as of late, WHM has alot of haste things as well, BLM & SCH have a hard time with TP gear sets, I made one for SCH but it is not easy, very specific gear needed unless you want to do Legion and get some of that augmented gear. The rest of what you said I completely agree with however, RDM should be in the same class as BLU when it comes to melee mages, especially with the inclusion of Temper and Gain spells, +25 of a WS mod & +20% Double Attack make RDM stand out from WHM/BLM/SCH and move closer to BLU in terms of melee power.

[Ophannus]

RDM has gotten a few residual pieces for haste but nothing really amazing. TP pieces are even worse, though not as bad now that we have Dux Head/Body which is a decent upgrade from freakin' Antares Harness. We still lack a lot of attack though. Need some kind of 15-20% self target Attack Boost/Accuracy Boost spell based on Enhancing Skill; call it Saber to match Temper(from FF1)!

[Economizer]

However, as a Red Mage, I just want to mention how insulted I am personally whenever we get front line equipment grouped together with BLM, BRD, SMN, SCH, and (to a lesser extent) WHM and not BLU, because it's as if to imply that our front line capabilities are supposed to be on par with BLM, BRD, SMN, SCH, WHM . . . and not BLU.

White Mage has weapons that are purely designed for melee as a weapon class just like Red Mage does, and at lower levels they were included on more light melee gear like Red Mage did.

Being insulted by the Rubeus Spats isn't really right, because Red Mage should get access to both mage gear and light melee gear. What a Red Mage should be insulted by is that there isn't as much new high level melee gear that is either Red Mage exclusive, light melee with Red Mage on it, or even just certain subcategories of gear that Red Mage is traditionally on.

Red Mage has gotten some nice bones thrown, like the easier to get Brisk Mask, or placed on gear like the Brego Gloves, or the Dux Scale Mail Set. White Mage is roughly in the same boat, with sidegrade level gear like the Iuvenalis Mittens. What both jobs need is more stuff like the Dusk Set, the Ogre Set, the Assault Jerkin, the Blessed Set, Holy Breastplate, and Reverend Mail.

What is nice about Red Mage is the varied access to gear that allows more roles to be carried out more easily, but of course, it would always be nice to see an exclusive set, or maybe a set made for either Sword users (PLD, BLU, RDM), or one handed melee casters (BRD, BLU, PLD, RDM, WHM), or melee white magic users (PLD, RDM, WHM) or some combo not listed here.

What would also help Red Mage a huge amount would be higher tiers of Dia, or even a attack boost skill, job trait, or even gear that has a large latent (such as gear that gives a percentage attack boost as long as enspells are up).

Personally, I'd prefer higher tiers of Dia with a Red Mage merit revamp that boosts it instead of granting the spell - Dia III can go to RDM at 61, with the spell going to WHM before 99, and then Red Mage can get Dia IV at 76~81, and Dia V at 99. Assuming the spells go up 5% per tier (with merits possibly boosting this 5% more, or increasing duration or DoTs damage), this would give Red Mage a 25%~30% attack boost to all party members, with a 10~15% advantage over White Mage and a 15%~20% bonus over subjob users of the spell tiers. Alternatively, White Mage and Red Mage could get gear that boosts Dia effectiveness, with it giving a larger boost for merits in Dia.

SE has been recently reluctant to give higher tiers of Dia out to Red Mage though (despite it being Red Mage's most powerful enfeeble) so something else might be more likely unfortunately.

[wish12oz]

unless all the Wars and Drks are afraid the Mage is going to not heal them as they do 10x more damage than the mage.

fixed that for you.

[Karbuncle]

Dat excuse!

So long as the enemy doesn't petrify or sleep, (or horrible AoEs when not considering VW with Fanatics, And with that said, Petrify Screen annuls the Pet requirement in VW.), A good Mage can Melee on most anything... Without risk of Getting raped, Or Failing to keep people a live.

Key Word: Good.

Until someone wants to explain to me how FFXI is hard or TP Feeding is bad, Going to maintain a Melee-Mage set would be fun for the situations, however slim, that they may be useful for.

Though sh*tty Mages who melee instead of doing their job need to gtfo. <3

[tyrantsyn]

There's no reason why there can't be useful melee gear for mage classes that don't normally melee. In most cases this gear would only be used in low man situation where its appropriate.

The fact that RDM has been left out off so much melee gear over the years is just sad. And really needs to be corrected.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

There's no reason why there can't be useful melee gear for mage classes that don't normally melee. In most cases this gear would only be used in low man situation where its appropriate.

The fact that RDM has been left out off so much melee gear over the years is just sad. And really needs to be corrected.

Yup, and lord almighty they have to be added back to light-armour. Seriously, I'm all for melee gear for both RDM and BLU, but if any job historically was all cloth armour it was BLU.

[Plasticleg]

gear swapping is a ban-able offence, you criminal scum

[Demon6324236]

gear swapping is a ban-able offence, you criminal scum

We need to have every BLM on the game banned immediately then, and RDM as well, and SCH. Probably most DDs, and WHMs, and don't forget BSTs. So I guess just about 90% of the games player base is deserving of bans.

[tyrantsyn]

gear swapping is a ban-able offence, you criminal scum
I get jokes :D

[Demon6324236]

I get jokes :D

Well I would have seen it as a joke if I had seen anyone in this thread popping out with the normal spew of "Gearswaping is the act of the devil >:O" kind of posts, didn't see any so the sarcasm seemed less likely.

[Plasticleg]

demon, you don't take sarcasm well.

[tyrantsyn]

It could have gone both ways, but the criminal scum line is from Star Wars. Which kind of gives it up.

[Sparthos]

It could have gone both ways, but the criminal scum line is from Star Wars. Which kind of gives it up.

It's from Elder Scrolls IV actually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCsMKypvmB0

[Demon6324236]

demon, you don't take sarcasm well.

Please keep in mind the high levels of stupid on these forums and that it is the internet which means sarcasm does not go across as well as in person.


It's from Elder Scrolls IV actually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCsMKypvmB0

Thats why I didn't get it, never really was a fan of Elder Scrolls.

[Mirage]

Especially white mages should have some more melee options, considering they can't rely on offensive magic to deal with enemies like all other mage jobs can (except smn but they can throw avatars at stuff).

I mean sure, there is some good stuff for white mage, but lots of it is pretty old by now. There should be a better selection of WS gear for them at least, considering they have enough gear to cap or nearly cap gear haste without too much trouble. However, it would be nice with better TP gear as well, seeing as much of the haste gear available to WHM now basically has haste and haste alone when it comes to dd stats.

[Plasticleg]

Especially white mages should have some more melee options, considering they can't rely on offensive magic to deal with enemies like all other mage jobs can (except smn but they can throw avatars at stuff).

I mean sure, there is some good stuff for white mage, but lots of it is pretty old by now. There should be a better selection of WS gear for them at least, considering they have enough gear to cap or nearly cap gear haste without too much trouble. However, it would be nice with better TP gear as well, seeing as much of the haste gear available to WHM now basically has haste and haste alone when it comes to dd stats.

morta's body is a really nice and solid haste+5 piece, you can easily get near 26% haste cap with whm...only thing that sucks is dual wield traits :/

[Mirage]

Yeah capping haste isn't too hard, as I said :p. It's just that the gear you use to cap haste usually doesn't have any significant amounts of acc, attack, str or multi-attack stats.

Of course, I'm not asking for whm to parse as well as a nin or anything, that would be crazy. But even if you increased whm's damage output by 50% from what you can get today, you'd still be miles behind any real DD, so there's a lot of headroom.

Another thing I noticed recently was that the str path magian club has really low base dmg, so it wouldn't be something you'd mainhand. Maybe there should be an elemental path with real hammers too?

[Economizer]

Yeah capping haste isn't too hard, as I said :p. It's just that the gear you use to cap haste usually doesn't have any significant amounts of acc, attack, str or multi-attack stats.

http://i.imgur.com/0kUP8.png

Rubeus Spats say hi. :P

Sadly, this is roughly the only piece of gear like it. Holy/Divine Breastplate had a good look to it too, kinda wish they'd let White Mage get a set that had sick stats and looked like a melee set too. (Read: SE Community Reps, if SE is planning new WHM combat armor and you aren't planning a new skin for it, reuse the Holy Breastplate skin, and give it a crap-load of Defense for no reason other then as homage to the level 40 piece).


Of course, I'm not asking for whm to parse as well as a nin or anything, that would be crazy. But even if you increased whm's damage output by 50% from what you can get today, you'd still be miles behind any real DD, so there's a lot of headroom.

Why not? At very least in solo situations, it would start to make a lot of sense, but I guess Haste, the single best buff in the game, and Dia, the single best debuff in the game both don't qualify enough these days to balance it out. Of course, solo has more of a tanking aspect to it as well though...

In a party, if you're dropping absolutely all your healing to take a different role, there is no good reason why you shouldn't be compensated equal to the amount of healing you're not doing to do that role, and White Mage has a lot of healing power if that is the case.

And if you aren't dropping all your healing power, you should still be doing enough extra damage to balance the lost healing power out, especially since other healing jobs can, in the absolutely vast majority of cases do "good enough" with just Cure IV and some Fast Cast. Of course there will always be situations where it is better to go full mage and bust out those Curagas (even if Curaga slightly favors standing in the thick of combat and taking some of those AoEs to the face in order to increase MP efficiency), but for everything else there really needs to be better options.

So really, I have to ask, "Why not?" because it is incredibly unfair and shallow minded to just automatically assume that White Mage shouldn't be able to match a Ninja, at least if they're trading absolutely everything for it. I think there would be far less eyebrows raised if someone requested for a Scholar to be able to do close DPS compared to a Ninja when they go all out Dark Arts mode, and Scholar can swap arts and heal nearly as good as a White Mage so... yeah. This sort of thing should be carefully considered as to why things are the way they are rather then an automatic kneejerk against it.


Another thing I noticed recently was that the str path magian club has really low base dmg, so it wouldn't be something you'd mainhand. Maybe there should be an elemental path with real hammers too?

Yeah, because the things are wands, I once requested that BLU get put on the non-Empyrean path clubs (although BLU got put on a higher level club again, so that's slightly alleviated).

The things are glorified stat-wands, which kinda raises the question why they didn't get unique stats on them to boot, like a cure path for club. Instead we got a copy of what everyone else except Staff did, but without being higher damage hammers.

I mean, they're White Mage only, it isn't like that's an excuse against them being hammers. Maybe SE planned on adding Geomancer to them (and giving Geomancer access to Gambateinn, which wouldn't be too outrageous). But I guess it is just trying to put logic to something where there might not be any.

Another problem with the wands is that between not having any major double/triple/quad attack stats or gear, White Mage pretty much always parses better with a multihitter in the offhand, whether it is the poorman's OA2-4 (or whatever the proper OA weapon is supposed to be), or the glorious Kraken Club, so getting either a STR or MND wand in the offhand doesn't really work as hot as it would for other jobs.

-

Going on about White Mage since I can (and there is really more to cover about all this), I think at this point it would be nice to get a bit more then just gear to bring things more in line where they should be.

One that isn't really a problem, but probably just one of those flavor/background things, White Mage's Club skill should be boosted to A- or even A+ to reflect that we are in fact, 100% undoubtedly the master of the weapon despite what misinformed players may think.

Actually, it might be a bit beyond that now, since Realmrazer has been widely reported to parse better then Hexa Strike now, although some players recently might not have gotten the memo (and sorry to the misinformed player I'm quoting - well unless someone parsed Hexa Strike as better again - I didn't want to correct you in the Producer suggestion thread because that might lead to arguing, which was reasonably asked against from the Producer):


It would also be nice to give the job access to Hexa Strike since PLD has higher club skill than WHM (Sorry, Realmrazer just doesn't cut it as it is right now).

I don't really want to go around asking for a buff to Hexa Strike (although a new WHM exclusive Club WS or two wouldn't hurt) to "fix" Realmrazer being more powerful anyways. More club skill wouldn't hurt though.

Afflatus Misery really needs fixed. It doesn't add much to White Mage in general, but is really lacking in helping White Mage stay up close to a mob, especially since Solace has MDB on barspells, cureskin for when you cure yourself, and the Cura line is lackluster compared to the always ready and MP efficient Curaga line.

Currently, even losing a Holy laser charge from a couple of cures feels worse then getting any of the "benefits" from Afflatus Misery. SE might as well just ungimp Esuna, merge Solace and Misery so you always get the effects of both while Solace is up (and just rename it Afflatus or something) at this point because Misery is so bad.

Another thing that would be really nice is if they unnerfed Auspice. It was always a pain (arguably a balanced pain) to keep it up to avoid losing the accuracy buff, but the absurd accuracy made Misery slightly less terrible while making White Mage feel unique from other jobs in its own way. Also helpful would be changes that make it so Auspice's Enlight effect won't interfere with Mjollnir additional effect procs somehow.

If SE really wants to save Misery, they have to start making Misery make White Mages better at dishing out and taking damage. Of course, the simple way to do this would be just to fix it, but Afflatus Misery gear like the AF3 body's Afflatus Solace boost would be very welcome in addition to some simple fixes.

Making Cura/Banish charges work like Solace does rather then Scarlet Delirium does would be a nice start. Higher tiers of Banish and adjustments to the Cura line would really help as well. Still, gear that enhances Misery (or both Solace and Misery as to save space) would be a nice touch.

[Mirage]

Rubeus spats are indeed nice. I didn't know about them, actually, because I dislike VW and don't plan on investing any significant amount of time into it. Would be nice if they could add some AHable gear (crafted, perhaps?!) that was going in the same direction as those.

As for the fire trial, yeah, you summed up exactly why I thought the fire path to be useless. You won't be offhanding it, and the dmg is poor for WSes. They really should be hammers, and the fire path should get something like over 70 dmg at 99, with a bunch of str and attack on it. If there is something whmelee really needs, it's attack.

When it comes to damage output, sure, I wouldn't exactly mind whm getting close to other non-twohander DD jobs, but I think it's easier to make SE listen if you try to meet them at the middle. I don't think it's fair to let whm deal more damage than for example dnc though, considering whms are better healer than them. At the most, they should be right behind them.

Oh and we should get banish 4+5 as well. Give them the same base damage as blm's tier 4 and 5 nukes before MAB traits and gear.

Maybe afflatus misery should just get a buff that would give us 10% JA haste, and boost light elemental attack spells by a decent amount. How about light-only MAB values equal to what blm gets?

[Mathieu]

And if you aren't dropping all your healing power, you should still be doing enough extra damage to balance the lost healing power out, especially since other healing jobs can, in the absolutely vast majority of cases do "good enough" with just Cure IV and some Fast Cast. Of course there will always be situations where it is better to go full mage and bust out those Curagas (even if Curaga slightly favors standing in the thick of combat and taking some of those AoEs to the face in order to increase MP efficiency), but for everything else there really needs to be better options.

So really, I have to ask, "Why not?" because it is incredibly unfair and shallow minded to just automatically assume that White Mage shouldn't be able to match a Ninja, at least if they're trading absolutely everything for it. I think there would be far less eyebrows raised if someone requested for a Scholar to be able to do close DPS compared to a Ninja when they go all out Dark Arts mode, and Scholar can swap arts and heal nearly as good as a White Mage so... yeah. This sort of thing should be carefully considered as to why things are the way they are rather then an automatic kneejerk against it.

I will agree to this just as soon as you agree to Dark Knight being able to give up their DD capabilities and be able to heal as well as a White Mage.

[Economizer]

Rubeus spats are indeed nice. I didn't know about them, actually, because I dislike VW and don't plan on investing any significant amount of time into it. Would be nice if they could add some AHable gear (crafted, perhaps?!) that was going in the same direction as those.

Yeah, I wish I had the spats too, but they're a "Very Rare" drop from Kalasutrax, which doesn't have any pulse body armor on it to lure people in.


When it comes to damage output, sure, I wouldn't exactly mind whm getting close to other non-twohander DD jobs, but I think it's easier to make SE listen if you try to meet them at the middle. I don't think it's fair to let whm deal more damage than for example dnc though, considering whms are better healer than them. At the most, they should be right behind them.

I'm not trying to say White Mage should automatically be equal with other 1h damage dealers, just that it shouldn't be automatically dismissed. Dancer for example can do quite a bit of damage, but they can heal without impacting their damage too heavily, whereas to heal and buff as a White Mage you generally are favored to drop the majority of what little damage they can do. Another factor would be difficulty of getting to the point where you're on equal footing - it might be far easier to deal damage as one job, but another job might have a higher skill/gear ceiling that allows it to match others, such as by losing the ability to do one thing to do others like many of the incredibly powerful stanced jobs in the game.

I just want SE to think about this stuff like they did when they introduced melee mage specific items in the past. I may or maynot have a flawed strategy for doing so, but I think that my method of detailing my understanding of the game will sway SE to think about these things and bring things more in line to what the game's flavor should be. It certainly shouldn't hurt to have people with differing opinions working towards that same goal with different strategies.


I will agree to this just as soon as you agree to Dark Knight being able to give up their DD capabilities and be able to heal as well as a White Mage.

Dark Knight has pretty amazing self recovery options for a heavy damage dealer, and I wholly support more magic usage options for Dark Knight, however I doubt the same trades will be possible as with a White Mage.

Removing all DD capability is really, really hard to do. But I think you'll find that dropping all ability to heal is comparatively simple, so this isn't some 1:1 comparison that can be made to make a quick soundbite jab of a point. Additionally you have other stuff like being able to tank that also comes into consideration when just focusing on singular things.

Damage dealing and healing are also not something that gets a good comparison either because of the different ways they work. With healing, you only ever need as much to survive the fight, but with damage dealing you can always use more as long as you can survive. Because of this key difference, healing will always be covered with "good enough" which means that being the best healer isn't remotely anywhere nearly as important as being the best damage dealer.

So it gets difficult to have the same comparison. And really, will White Mage ever be able to trade off absolutely all of its healing ability, or even will they want to make a complete tradeoff? Maybe not, but a kneejerk reaction against mage melee options being useful doesn't help anyone.


Maybe afflatus misery should just get a buff that would give us 10% JA haste, and boost light elemental attack spells by a decent amount. How about light-only MAB values equal to what blm gets?

There are a lot of cool things Afflatus Misery could do in order to catch up with Solace (which for the most part feels good for what it is supposed to do).

I'd pick 10% JA Haste any day of the week (I wonder if /NIN + Suppanomimi + Haste + gear + 10% JA would count as hitting the 80% delay reduction cap) for the job ability. But there are tons of other stuff this could do as well. Some of it should be an automatic improvement, maybe as levels get higher via job traits or comboing with job abilities, and some of it should be gear related.

When framed by a request like that, it is hard to come up with anything that would match, but given how useful Solace is not just at healing, but self-survivability, such a boost even sounds fair (the only way I feel remotely guilty going along with the suggestion is that I'd feel Red Mage should get some way to get JA Haste from Composure or something as well), even if it wasn't something I would have thought of myself.

Personally I was thinking of suggesting stuff along the lines of making the White Mage able to tank damage from area effects more readily (because Misery tends to lend towards AoE cures rather then single target ones) although this might be better suited by a piece of gear that provides melee and tankish style stats.

Another thought towards buffing Misery would be more Job Abilities or Spells comboing with it then before; for example, if you remove an ailment with Divine Caress from yourself, everyone in range would gain the effect of Divine Caress.

Something else that might be interesting would be a way to have weakness removed when you Reraise with Misery up in very specific conditions, such as if the hit did more damage then you have max HP, or maybe with a piece of gear that has charges of Reraise that work in conjunction with Misery.

The thing is, there are a bunch of different directions SE could go with Misery that would be good, so there are many possibilities.

[Mathieu]

Dark Knight has pretty amazing self recovery options for a heavy damage dealer, and I wholly support more magic usage options for Dark Knight, however I doubt the same trades will be possible as with a White Mage.

Removing all DD capability is really, really hard to do. But I think you'll find that dropping all ability to heal is comparatively simple, so this isn't some 1:1 comparison that can be made to make a quick soundbite jab of a point. Additionally you have other stuff like being able to tank that also comes into consideration when just focusing on singular things.

No, they really don't. Dragoon hands down is vastly superior to Dark Knight in that regard. Paladin can get pretty decent damage when equipped properly. Obviously, they can't match a Dark Knight going full out, but a Dark Knight going full out has no where near the capabilities needed to keep themselves healed against anything meaningful, even with real armor equipped. Samurai can do a whole lot with Dancer subbed. Ninja is intended to avoid damage in the first place, which trumps self healing. The only heavier melee classes Dark Knight truly beats are Warrior and Beastmaster.

The trade off is much, much easier for Dark Knight than White Mage. All you have to do to mess up Dark Knight damage is force their weapon option to something they have poor skill and equipment access. With White Mage, there really isn't anything to nerf, in the grand scheme of things skills and Mind don't make a whole lot of difference and virtually all of their job abilities and healing related traits were not originally part of the class and White Mage could heal just fine. Outside, "You can never, ever cast healing spells" there is nothing that can be done to prevent White Mage from being at least a solid healer. On the other hand, Dark Knight damage is really easy to nerf.

Dark Knights really can't "tank" outside situations consisting of "every melee class can tank by subbing Warrior for Provoke." They have heavy armor, yes, but that's it. No matter how you equip and play them, virtually every job (depending on the level range and situation) can easily out tank Dark Knight.


Damage dealing and healing are also not something that gets a good comparison either because of the different ways they work. With healing, you only ever need as much to survive the fight, but with damage dealing you can always use more as long as you can survive. Because of this key difference, healing will always be covered with "good enough" which means that being the best healer isn't remotely anywhere nearly as important as being the best damage dealer.

So it gets difficult to have the same comparison. And really, will White Mage ever be able to trade off absolutely all of its healing ability, or even will they want to make a complete tradeoff? Maybe not, but a kneejerk reaction against mage melee options being useful doesn't help anyone.

It goes both ways. A bad damage dealer isn't usually a huge drain on a party compared to a bad healer that gets people killed. The difference between the "best damage dealer" and a "good damage dealer" is also pretty razor thin, unless you are also factoring in comparing someone with decent equipment versus someone that also has the ideal gear swap for every single situation they ever come across.

Also, I wasn't saying "Melee Mage" is bad. I was criticizing your idea that there should ever be a circumstance where White Mage can do something that would allow them to directly compete with actual DD classes in terms of damage, giving up something or not. If you don't allow other classes to do that, it is just going to lead to worse and worse imbalance. If you want proof of this, look at WoW Priests, who can do exactly what you are suggesting (trade healing abilities for better damage). They are ridiculously powerful in every situation the game throws at you while other classes actually struggle and doing things they are supposed to be good at. They don't even need to change equipment or even their talents to do this. White Mage damage isn't even that bad in situations where they should be meleeing, if equipped properly with already existing gear. They have a weak spot at early levels due to the better types of clubs not having lower level versions, but beyond that, they have much better melee abilities then people give them credit for because the standard people seem to go by is trying to whack enemies with wands in mage gear. They aren't on true DD level, but in terms of what they can do by themselves when played properly, they are pretty good.

[Economizer]

I really hate discussions like these that crop up whenever someone tries to talk about stuff like improving melee mage options, and they often just seem to shutdown the discussion by making people upset or take the time away from discussing constructive changes by instead arguing over philosophy.

I'd much prefer to discuss ways jobs like Red Mage and White Mage can have useful melee options then squabble over whether or not mages should actually have useful options.

If you still want to read a rebuttal to your points, I won't take that away with a false high ground, but if you aren't reading to understand but to argue, don't waste my time by reading it.

[Mirage]

Well as far as I'm concerned, there is no harm in making any mage decent at meleeing versus non-high level NMs. Who cares if a whm can bash exp mobs' faces in at 98% the speed of a ninja? As long as a whm can't do the same against a legion or VW NM, it doesn't matter.

And considering WHM's lack of A skill in club, low DD stats and limited access to physically strong subjobs (can't get DW without losing Berserk, for example), I don't think that would ever be a problem. Even if you gave whm access to 50% of all the best real DD gear, it'd fall significantly behind on content that is actually hard.

Soo, just give that to us already!

-edit-
As for giving up healing power in favor of damage, what would make more sense than revamping the Banish and Holy spells to actually deal enough damage for it to be worth the MP it costs? Using strong light elemental nukes would eat up the same MP pool that lets us heal. If I just spent 8-900 MP on nukes, there's no way the party can rely on me for cures anymore when fighting significantly tough mobs (unless I'm in abyssea, but who cares about balance in abyssea?). For even more balance, require Afflatus Misery to be in effect for these to be strong enough to almost compete with a blm or sch.

[Asymptotic]

I do just fine.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32078748/PrincessClub/odin.jpg

[Mirage]

But would you mind doing even finer?

[Dekar]

I'm all for mages getting more armors to play around with in the front lines!

[Nawesemo]

Ewe.... And splatter mob guttzzz alll over my staves.... No beuno.

[wildsprite]

you know, I'll never understand why there always has to be someone against mages having good melee gear, those of us who actually know the jobs know they weren't built for full time melee, other than RDM which was a really good tank before SE nerfed it.....

[Demon6324236]

you know, I'll never understand why there always has to be someone against mages having good melee gear, those of us who actually know the jobs know they weren't built for full time melee, other than RDM which was a really good tank before SE nerfed it.....

Not sure that someone here has said much of anything pointing to that, but I think when people do its because they think that somehow it would be threatening to their style of play, the same way as I think RDM getting staff skill would be threatening to my style of playing my RDM with an Almace (and soon to be Excalibur) in my hands 90% of the time.

[Nawesemo]

You mean like how a war is crucified for using a one hander and a shield..... Maybe because of things like that.

[SpankWustler]

You mean like how a war is crucified for using a one hander and a shield..... Maybe because of things like that.

I'm not sure this is the best comparison, unless your point is that somebody dumb is out there somewhere trying to Stun something awful while armed with a whacking device instead of an Apamajas II.

That guy is definitely out there, just waiting for his big chance to make the world a worse place; but fighting difficult monsters isn't the only situation in FFXI these days. There are a lot of low-level monsters out there, some of them just waiting to drop currency or alexandrite.

All Warriors always have the goal of killing a monster in mind, or at least should, so using worse weapons only moves toward the same goal more slowly and more horribly.

If a mage's goal is to provide twice the Box Steps to help a !! magically appear over a giant mushroom's head more quickly, standing at 20.1 distance isn't going to help much with that.

[Nawesemo]

Just because I "can" tank any given abyssea NM on Whm doesnt mean I should. Rdms want to melee fine and dandy, but they do it wrong given the situation, and yes they will get the "wtf" attitude, I know some of the best rdms around, f'in elvaans at that, and they make all sorts of noise with their swords, but if given better options for melee dmg, I or anyone for that matter wont choose a rdm over a well geared war for that last dmg spot, .......anything else, yeah gear how you like, but rdm spot isn't up front all that often, yes they "can", but given better options, ....... Yeah this been brought up and shut down so many times..... Pld has More to complain about the glorious rdms on damage alone..... There isn't anything wrong with the cog that fills all holes, other than there being better cogs made for those holes.... Love red mage, but it still is a support job that can dd well. Be happy with that.

[Garota]

Martial Mages Mortal Mashfest (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4595-Black-Mage-Job-Ability-Idea-IMPLEMENT-WHAT-YOU-HAVE-PUBLISHED-SE.?p=63449&viewfull=1#post63449) Nobody else seems to like the idea. I personally added 5/5 Shattersoul and I use it often when I'm on SCH doing low man stuff such as Salvage, Limbus, Nyzul and other smaller scale events. But that's about as much fun as I get as a melee mage.

[Demon6324236]

Just because I "can" tank any given abyssea NM on Whm doesnt mean I should. Rdms want to melee fine and dandy, but they do it wrong given the situation, and yes they will get the "wtf" attitude, I know some of the best rdms around, f'in elvaans at that, and they make all sorts of noise with their swords, but if given better options for melee dmg, I or anyone for that matter wont choose a rdm over a well geared war for that last dmg spot, .......anything else, yeah gear how you like, but rdm spot isn't up front all that often, yes they "can", but given better options, ....... Yeah this been brought up and shut down so many times..... Pld has More to complain about the glorious rdms on damage alone..... There isn't anything wrong with the cog that fills all holes, other than there being better cogs made for those holes.... Love red mage, but it still is a support job that can dd well. Be happy with that.

The reason RDM can not easily fulfill a front line role easily is because SE never gives the melee side much attention. It shows all throughout the job, and is sad because it is meant to be a mix of melee & mage. A quote from a post I made earlier today...
Would it kill them to give us at least some job traits for melee? I mean seriously if you look down our current list we have...

Magic Attack Bonus I~III
Magic Defense Bonus I~III
Fast Cast I~V
Clear Mind I~III
Shield Mastery I~II
Resist Petrify I~II
Magic Burst Bonus I~III
Tranquil HeartBut thats kinda sad when you look at a job meant to be a fighter and a mage in one, because there is only 1 slightly fighter like trait in the list, and its defensive, not to mention we first get it at level 87! I think we should get some melee traits as well...Look at our job abilities as well...
Chainspell - Allows instant cast and recast of magic.
Convert - Swaps the users HP & MP.
Composure - Enhances our Enhancing Magic.
Saboteur - Enhances our enfeebling magic.
Spontaneity - gives us 1 instantly cast spell.
The only ability in this list which is possibly melee or front line oriented is Convert, because you can keep your MP back and use Convert for an instant, last ditch effort, to heal yourself. However unless silenced, you would have absolutely no reason to do so as using a simply Cure IV will likely give you just as much HP for much less MP.

From level 1 all the way until 99 we have at most 2 front line abilities or traits, there is a reason why we seem to be more of a support job, however if SE did what they should, and changed this, RDM would be much better off. I think that also follows the idea of this thread seeing as its about helping mages melee, and should not be only in gear, but in other aspects as well. Admittedly giving BLM Attack Bonus or WHM Dual Wield is not what I am talking about, but for RDM specifically, the job which was meant to be a hybrid job to fill all roles, it should have a few more traits to boost its abilities in a front line role. You said RDM is a support job that can DD well, honestly thats not what it should be, or have ever been, it should be a hybrid that can do everything well, but not be the best at everything either.

[Demon6324236]

Martial Mages Mortal Mashfest (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4595-Black-Mage-Job-Ability-Idea-IMPLEMENT-WHAT-YOU-HAVE-PUBLISHED-SE.?p=63449&viewfull=1#post63449) Nobody else seems to like the idea. I personally added 5/5 Shattersoul and I use it often when I'm on SCH doing low man stuff such as Salvage, Limbus, Nyzul and other smaller scale events. But that's about as much fun as I get as a melee mage.

I am under the idea that if you have a good enough SCH, you could probably go do Neo-Nyzul and events like it that love Embrava, but do it with the SCH DDing as well. For instance if you have a NNI group and everyone can keep themselves up without needing cures, throw some Haste gear on the SCH (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/261884) that doesn't stay at the lamp, with their Regain, Haste, and Embrava, they can do a great job beating things to death with a stick, especially if you have a good enough Shattersoul build (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/270480)!

[Nawesemo]

O.i.c, you want to see real dd #'s out of a rdm..... Geared properly, I just don't think its possible, they did make the other jobs for a reason ya know..... Think about it.... Rdm zomg I just did 7k with my almace at capped haste..... War >.>. /em throws his ukon in the dirt. Rdm does what its supose to, kudos to those who force more out of em and do things that others can't, but making rdm more gear to melee on par with "dd's" is just never going to happen..... Be a war you want to zomg, .... If you want to do it on rdm, that's cool to, but it was never ment to be on par with actual factual front line jobs.... They "can" but someone else probably will do it better, unless its casting slow 2, Dia 3 etc......

[Demon6324236]

O.i.c, you want to see real dd #'s out of a rdm..... Geared properly, I just don't think its possible, they did make the other jobs for a reason ya know..... Think about it.... Rdm zomg I just did 7k with my almace at capped haste..... War >.>. /em throws his ukon in the dirt. Rdm does what its supose to, kudos to those who force more out of em and do things that others can't, but making rdm more gear to melee on par with "dd's" is just never going to happen..... Be a war you want to zomg, .... If you want to do it on rdm, that's cool to, but it was never ment to be on par with actual factual front line jobs.... They "can" but someone else probably will do it better, unless its casting slow 2, Dia 3 etc......

http://t.qkme.me/3531ds.jpg
You said RDM is a support job that can DD well, honestly thats not what it should be, or have ever been, it should be a hybrid that can do everything well, but not be the best at everything either.Last part of everything I said. I am not saying in any way, shape, or form, that a RDM should out DD a WAR, SAM, DRK, MNK, or DRG... Please understand that before you bother to ever reply to anything I ever say about a RDM meleeing. I want RDM to have a more respectable amount of melee power, that is all. As I showed, we are very heavy on our mage side in every way, which goes against the entire idea of RDM being a Hybrid job. To add another instance, look at BLU, its a correct Hybrid job in terms of gear & abilities if you choose to be. BLU has the ability to get traits it needs for good DDing power, and is on great gear to cover it as well. A few instances of this are with these 2 sets...
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb57889/ffxi/images/c/cb/Teal_Saio.png
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb57889/ffxi/images/5/59/Aurore_Doublet.png
Look at these sets and tell me if you notice a reoccurring job in here... BLU. BLU was put on Aurore, not the best pieces of gear for melee, but some basic stuff, it was also put on Teal. Now look where RDM is, its on the mage only piece, same with almost all of our traits. This is what I want changed, I want to stop losing out on every piece of good gear for melee that is made for light/1 hand DDs, but excludes RDM. More examples of amazing gear that leaves RDM behind are...
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb58374/ffxi/images/8/86/Toci%27s_Harness.png
The closest RDM has to this, is...
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb58374/ffxi/images/9/9b/Kudzu_Aketon.jpg
The only advantage the RDM body has, is the STP. It has 3 more attack, but thats made up for by the 3 more STR Toci's has, Toci's also has DEX, something for 1 of our best WSs on Sword, and the best non-Relic/Merit Dagger WS for RDM as well. Not to mention the accuracy+10 along with it, something RDM needs for melee. The head is another case for this same set, RDM was left out, alot of STR on it, has a set bonus with a great body, and is one of the best Haste pieces, I would surely use it over Zelus if given the choice. The list goes on however, there is Athos and Thaumas as well, not to mention I'm sure there are even more pieces of gear that don't come to mind right now, but RDM is left off of them. The majority of the high end gear sets that RDM is put on is mage only gear, like...
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb57887/ffxi/images/3/33/Heka%27s_Kalasiris_description.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/6/62/Shedir_Manteel_description.png
Which is by no means bad, but notice that 2nd body, yet again, BLU takes a place on a great piece, and leaves RDM off of the other pieces such as...
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/1/1f/Enif_Corazza_description.png
Which are from the same event, same as Heka's/Toci's, Teal/Aurore, and again, BLU is on the mage pieces as well as the melee pieces.


To recap.
I do not want RDM to be the best DD ever, I want RDM to have a place as a DD, and receive melee gear.
I want RDM to be treated as a Hybrid, not a mage, it was clearly designed as a Hybrid at the start, it was the only job with access to both light & dark magic, while having the power to melee with multiple weapon types. RDM has also gotten a sword as every form of its weapon to go with the job, except Relic in which it also received dagger. AF, Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean, are all swords, which match the Hybrid nature of the job, but gear is at a loss because RDM only gets mage gear, unlike BLU which often gets both mage, and light DD gear from event gear sets.




Lastly I am not trying to offend you, troll you, or in any way insult you. However it seemed as if you ignored my points and instead went on to say that I was asking for something far different than what I said, and even seemed to ignore the end of my post as it goes completely against what you seem to believe I was saying.


Sorry to everyone that I took up half the page to say all of this, but I do seriously think RDM needs to be taken into consideration on how it is being acted upon in contrast to BLU, where it is given only mage related things for the most part, and has not been treated as the other Hybrid has.

[Nawesemo]

Red MAGE. IDK What your going on about, rdm can use a sword one over many other MAGE, rdm en spells, phalanx haste 2, .... Yeah, rdm melees fine. Aside from not being able to out parse real dd.

[Demon6324236]

Red MAGE. IDK What your going on about, rdm can use a sword one over many other MAGE, rdm en spells, phalanx haste 2, .... Yeah, rdm melees fine. Aside from not being able to out parse real dd.

Blue MAGE has access to alot of gear we don't that is on the melee side and makes the very powerful, stop trying to use the name of the job to say it should suck at DDing. If you rather I can go get myself 20 pieces of gear with BLU and not RDM on them that show just how much stats they can get off gear that RDM doesn't, even though they are a MAGE.

You probably don't get what I'm saying because your not paying attention.

[Nawesemo]

And Blu can't spam their entire list of spells having instead to pick and choose the ones hes going to use, i feel they are overpowered, and all that don't get me started on that, if rdm gets more melee gear why pick any other job, everyone could just be avesta and solo everything.... Rdm is fine does fine and should be as you say ok at a lot of things, great at none, but slow 2 etc.... It is still what it was ment to be. Unique.

Edit: and that makes a lil sense even.... Blu more physically gifted, rdm more magic.... Still not magey enough for me but what ever, Rdms playing with swords.... Meh... Have at it.

[saevel]

Demon you can't win. Nawes is a troll and is just trying to stir up more sh!t. We'll add em to our ignore list and sometime next month another one will appear to take his place.

Their all just mules from various posters who want to stir the pot for fun.

[Nawesemo]

pft... no one else is asking for anything less it doesn't mean we're going to get it. this is goofy given rdm's history as the defacto uber solo job, Your trolling of my opinion that *cough I pay for just like you, is kind of ignorant, ignore me if you like but my opinion still stands. Rdm is fine and dandy in the melee department, focus on you know, being more magey with your abilities given to you or change jobs.

[Karbuncle]

...

Listen closely and you can hear the sound of thousands of hands slamming into their owners faces.


and the best non-Relic Dagger WS for RDM as well

*BUZZER NOISE*: Wrong - Best Non-Relic Dagger WS for RDM is Exenterator, Which, Has a 100% AGI Mod, and that body is sexy as hell for it. Everything else though, i tend to agree.

RDM Is a hybrid job, Its just its melee side has been ignored by Square Enix to some extent... However you do have to remember Temper, which at best, Can offer 20% Double Attack! So in that reality, Its really way more Mage-oriented these days, Its simply how it is. The job has potential to be a hybrid, But it would need more help. Still, You must consider it does have some pretty decent potential, however, Like most if not all other Hybrid jobs, It will never truly excel at either side of its skill set, Mage or Melee.

Most Hybrid jobs are kinda boned because of how FFXI works, Hybrids aren't really needed or wanted. SCH and DNC Fail because of this reason.. SCH being a Hybrid BLM/WHM, and DNC Being a Hybrid Buffer/DD, Both fail pretty hard because neither side of their benefits really is worthwehile... SCH just has a place in our hearts cause of Embrava.

COR, However, is a Hybrid Buffer/DD, So it can be done... with the right help.

Long story short, as it stands now, RDM is really in a very sad state, But it can at least put both of its mediocre Qualities to use whenever possible (Mage and Melee Side)... Which is rarely, but still, a good player could easily maintain his Mage duties, and Melee duties, in something like Dynamis... If my brother comes RDM (Relic Trials, Or something), I have him come /DNC, his Requiscat's can easily hit 2k+ Even on some of the DC mobs we fight, It can be good if done right, Hell my SMN (And i have Screenshots here in the Shattersoul Thread) can hit 2.2k~3k+ Shattersouls, even /DNC.

Mages, Red mage specifically to this argument, will never reach the DPS and raw damage output of a real DD, But they can contribute, as long as there's no extreme factors (Breakga, Damaging AoEs you want to avoid, etc) - They can effectively help Make the big thing Die quicker, or in places like Dynamis, Help proc.

[Demon6324236]

Breakga

Actually 1 advantage to RDM. I will say that Resist Petrify does help at times, many times when I have been a RDM/NIN DD on Qilin I have taken Breakga and just brushed it off so I can continue beating the NM down while everyone else is standing around! :D

[Tile]

Actually 1 advantage to RDM. I will say that Resist Petrify does help at times, many times when I have been a RDM/NIN DD on Qilin I have taken Breakga and just brushed it off so I can continue beating the NM down while everyone else is standing around! :D

thats why i use a Fool's during Qilin, makes me sleep and break proof

[Karbuncle]

Yah.. When i fight Qilin, I tend to keep Fools up unless i know im going to be the main tank (Which i avoid at all costs).

[Theytak]

Actually 1 advantage to RDM. I will say that Resist Petrify does help at times, many times when I have been a RDM/NIN DD on Qilin I have taken Breakga and just brushed it off so I can continue beating the NM down while everyone else is standing around! :D
People let DD rdms in, but leave pup and bst on the curb? There's something fundamentally wrong about that...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

People let DD rdms in, but leave pup and bst on the curb? There's something fundamentally wrong about that...

It's called a linkshell/friends, obviously shout parties wont unless they're struggling.

[Demon6324236]

People let DD rdms in, but leave pup and bst on the curb? There's something fundamentally wrong about that...I see PUPs let in to DD in Qilin often enough, not all VWNMs but I have seen in quite a few so long as they have Emp & good gear to go with it. BST I don't play much, or know very well on a damage scale so I will not bother trying to guess on that one, but I admit they are rare to see on anything.
It's called a linkshell/friends, obviously shout parties wont unless they're struggling.Mostly correct. When LS members do a VW party, or friends, I normally get to come RDM, however it is not all to uncommon that when I ask to come RDM/NIN for VW, particularly Zilart/Jeuno T3, that I am allowed to go. Most people who know me on Phoenix know I'm a good RDM, Ill back off and do enfeebling procs if they pop up, Ill still proc sword and dagger, and that I can still do good damage.

[saevel]

The reason for RDM/NIN is to assist the BLMs and cover Ninja procs. Ever since SE removed the San line there isn't a reason to bring a pure NIN unless their your friend. What my shell does is have one of our BRD's go /PLD, the other one goes /NIN so we got both of those covered.

Honestly against anything less then T6 it shouldn't matter. We were doing voidwatch spam the other day for gear and Ig-Alima was just melting. Later on did Pil and that was a joke, had to hold damage throughout the fight to get capped red. So honestly damage output isn't a big issue with anything not Prov or T6 / Morta / Bismark. There is plenty of gear that people want so there will be plenty of opportunities.

One of the few places where a Hybrid makes sense is six man dungeon crawls. The ability to replenish MP, heal deal both magic and melee damage, debuff and "tank" all in one job is pretty useful. Currently BLU takes the crown there, mostly due to SE giving BLU's light and dark aoe sleeps while giving RDM absolutely sh!t.

[Duvemora]

I think secretly... all mages want to melee.

I know I do.

Melee WHM for life. :D

Ain't nothing more satisfying than taking a hammer to your foe's noggin!

[Asymptotic]

But would you mind doing even finer?


Of course not. I'm always hoping that WHM will get better melee options.
That aside, it actually has pretty fantastic melee gear available as it stands.

It really doesn't get access to Double / Triple attack gear, but it also doesn't have a lot of use for it outside of Mystic Boon.

[Ritsuka]

Rdm, Blm. Sch if you want to do damage use magic! If your magic sucks then go skill it up
If it still sucks after that .....then find the gear that works for you.
You're not helping the party melee your only making it worse.
When the game first started BLM was and still is the strongest Damage Dealer in the game. NO job can pass it sch come's close but blm has access to more powerful magic.
Rdm can solo pretty decent with a sword you could prob do decent damage if you had the right gear.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Rdm, Blm. Sch if you want to do damage use magic! If your magic sucks then go skill it up
If it still sucks after that .....then find the gear that works for you.
You're not helping the party melee your only making it worse.
When the game first started BLM was and still is the strongest Damage Dealer in the game. NO job can pass it sch come's close but blm has access to more powerful magic.
Rdm can solo pretty decent with a sword you could prob do decent damage if you had the right gear.

Thanks for a useless, non-helpful reply. Can I suggest if you don't like the idea of a topic, you don't:

1. Click to open it.
2. Reply

[wildsprite]

I do agree that RDM should not even be classified as a mage, it is a hybrid, it should do well at all of its abilities, but as also pointed out not be the best, before SE nerfed the hell out of it RDM(thanks SE, I was quite capable of getting enmity- gear if I wanted it, I didn't need nor want it as an auto trait with cures) was a really good tank, there is good gear for it, but alas since they screwed over the enmity RDM can't keep hate very well so taking is a thing of the past

[ManaKing]

People let DD rdms in, but leave pup and bst on the curb? There's something fundamentally wrong about that...

If you have a good enough BST, no one should mind watching you and your pet beat stuff up. People don't see BST as a DD, which is hilarious considering it can have one of the highest DPS contributions in the game with their pets.

[Duvemora]

It'll never happen, but I'd like to see WHM get an A+ in club. Sure, PLD can use most of what WHM can, but seriously, Club is the WHM weapon. People associate Club with WHM.

And I think one of the mages should get an A+ in staff too.

Actually... All weapons should have one job with an A+ in it. Just sayin. Especially when there is only one job that can use that weapon type... Ninja/Katana. :mad:

[Mirage]

Hell, I'd be happy if we even got A- in club.

[Economizer]

I do agree that RDM should not even be classified as a mage


classified as a mage


mage

This is pure a player distinction.

Blue Mage isn't even thought of as a back line job. Scholar, despite not having the words "Mage" in their name are basically a backline job. Some jobs have elements for the front line that can be played with or played into.

Just like there are situations where a Beastmaster should stay in the back away from their pet and there are others where it should fight along side its pet, there are situations where many jobs often though of as back line should be sitting with the rest of the group. Not all of these situations are even melee related - for example White Mage has some spells, traits, and abilities that encourage you to sit close to the rest of the party in the thick of things.

So a Blue "Mage" isn't just a "Mage" but it is also a Monsterspell Swordsmen. Red "Mage" isn't just a "Mage" but it is also a Spellsword. White "Mage" isn't just a "Mage" but it is also a Cleric.

No job should be classified as a "Mage" just because of what their class is called.

[Mirage]

Personally, I'm a divine demon hunter when I've got hammers in my hands.

[wildsprite]

This is pure a player distinction.

Blue Mage isn't even thought of as a back line job. Scholar, despite not having the words "Mage" in their name are basically a backline job. Some jobs have elements for the front line that can be played with or played into.

Just like there are situations where a Beastmaster should stay in the back away from their pet and there are others where it should fight along side its pet, there are situations where many jobs often though of as back line should be sitting with the rest of the group. Not all of these situations are even melee related - for example White Mage has some spells, traits, and abilities that encourage you to sit close to the rest of the party in the thick of things.

So a Blue "Mage" isn't just a "Mage" but it is also a Monsterspell Swordsmen. Red "Mage" isn't just a "Mage" but it is also a Spellsword. White "Mage" isn't just a "Mage" but it is also a Cleric.

No job should be classified as a "Mage" just because of what their class is called.

RDM and BLU are Hybrid jobs and should be treated as such, that isnt a player distinction its something SE engrained on us from the beginning of each of those jobs

Scholar is a Tactical Magician or at least that is what SE calls it

White Mage has always been a Cleric, everyone I know who knows what a Cleric is has referred to it as such

[Ordoric]

reverned mail for whm need we say more

[zataz]

i solo alot on my rdm and i love it. i mean if they add stuff great if not thats fine too. i do the best i can do with what they give me. ill tell u what i dont like is how enspells dont effect the attack round after a ws. >.> how many of u notice that?

ps i mean right after the ws

[Tile]

i solo alot on my rdm and i love it. i mean if they add stuff great if not thats fine too. i do the best i can do with what they give me. ill tell u what i dont like is how enspells dont effect the attack round after a ws. >.> how many of u notice that?

ps i mean right after the ws

same thing with dance, seems to only happen when you get the delay just right and you Melee in the middle of you WS.

[Slvr_Stryker]

Looking through this thread, I see a lot of throwing around of the jobs "Red Mage" and "Blue Mage" without really looking back at how these jobs were more or less created and designed, so I think it's time for all of us to get a little bit of a history lesson, thanks to the fine people at the Final Fantasy Wiki (yeah, I know, lolfacts from an easily-editable wiki, but it's the closest thing I have ^^; ).

Red Mage (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Mage)
Traditionally, Red Mages of yore have been able to do a number of things available to them, from casting both White and Black Magic to being able to go toe-to-toe with even the most gruesome monsters with their readily-available list of swords and predominantly-heavier-than-other-mages armor selection. So, since they can do all of this, they are very clearly the best classes in all of the games they're in, right? Well...yes and no.

However, their versatility comes at a price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest, and equip some heavy armor, but not all of it.
The term "jack of all trades, master of none" is thrown around quite a bit in regard to how Red Mages actually work, and in a sense, it's probably the best term to use. A solid Red Mage can be slotted in anywhere where there's a gap. Need a competent healer, and there isn't a White Mage around to throw its potent cures? Snag a Red Mage. Looking for some magic assistance, but there isn't a Black Mage to cast Firaga? Red Mages can throw in Fira on their end, maybe even to the point where the Red Mage in question can cast it twice in succession due to Dualcast (which I still think should be implemented in FFXI (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/24757-Doublecast?p=337418&viewfull=1#post337418), it would really bring a spark back to RDMs again without overpowering them). Hell, can't find someone who can deal copious amounts of physical damage? Red Mages can use swords pretty efficiently. They can take a few hits before going down, too. Red Mages are not *specialists*, but their versatility is what makes them desirable, because while they can't do what other classes can, they can still hold their own by being able to do so many things that would require a combination of 3 separate classes.
In Final Fantasy XI's case, it really isn't all that different. Yes, SE has predominantly thrown them into a more "back-line" category with their spell and equipment listing (and for that matter, so has a loooooooooooooot of the player base, myself included in a way), but that does not mean that they can't throw down in the thick of things. They can still throw out fairly decent melee numbers while also having the ability to step back and sling magic around. It's not going to be as effective as, say, a White Mage throwing around his or her curing spells, or a Black Mage nuking down a magically-weak monster, but it will still be effective. The main thing that the players, and the Red Mages themselves, need to learn is when to go from one thing to another. They need to know when they need to put on their swords, step up to the plate, and swing away. Likewise, they need to know when to step back and let the magical aspect of them shine forth. Just because you are a master of none does not mean you need to have all these new things, then complain when a more specialized job gets something that makes sense in a specialization aspect. All it means is that you need to prepare yourself for any situation, with the spells and the gear that you have, and react accordingly.

Blue Mage (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Blue_Mage)
Traditionally speaking, Blue Mages have always been the odd man out in any game that they're in.

Blue Mages, as their name implies, focus on Blue Magic, a special subset of Magic that allows them to use attacks otherwise exclusive to enemies.
As above states, they have a really odd placement in any party, regardless of where they are. And yet, Blue Mages are probably the most fun to train up, due to their completely varied versatility in learning their Blue Magic. Their spells will always be able to surprise and astonish both friend and foe, as well as even producing completely varied results.
There's another thing that a lot of people tend to forget about the Blue Mage:

Beyond this, Blue Mages vary in equipment and physical prowess. They are not as weak as other Mage classes in terms of attack or defense, and are usually capable fighters. Of course, their true strength is their magic.
That first sentence catches my eye the most, which basically says that no two Blue Mages are alike on the physical side. You can't really compare Strago Magus to Khimari Ronso, or Quistis Trepe to Quina Quen, because the only real similarities are due to the fact that they can not only learn abilities from the monsters they fight and slay, but turn around and deliver them in an equally, if not greater, effect upon other foes they face.
Final Fantasy XI's Blue Mages seem to continue this very odd trend. While they may have very great (A-, compared to a Paladin's A+) proficiency in using a sword, their physical armor tends to hold back on just about the same type of gear a Red Mage can use. Also on the forefront are a Blue Mage's stats. Go ahead, do a comparison on the FFXI Stat Calculator (http://bellsouthpwp2.net/k/i/kinematicf/FFXI/StatCalculator/) between a no-subbed Hume Blue Mage and a no-subbed Hume Red Mage.
...
Surprising, isn't it? While both classes have the exact same HP and MP, the Red Mage ultimately pulls ahead in all but VIT and AGI, while the Blue Mage's stats remain *dead even throughout*. And yet, Blue Mages are almost universally shown to be in a more physical light, while being able to cast magic even at the front lines. Why is this? Because of Blue Magic. It is that magic that gives a Blue Mage not only a physical leg up on Red Mages, but is also a source of their versatility, in a way.
On paper, Blue Mages can do virtually anything that almost any job can do. Hell, looking at the first 20 levels of a Blue Mage's career, they can give themselves 50% more defense, give themselves or their entire party a (fairly weak, but still noticeable) HP boost, debuff monsters in ways that no other job will even think about until later levels, play crowd control via putting monsters around them to sleep, all while dealing plenty of damage to their foes. But in practice, they cannot do this.
SE was smart enough to realize that, if Blue Mages had access to all of their spells, they would be the most broken job in the game, so they limited us in two ways: the set point limitation, where every spell costs a certain amount of spells to set for usage, and ultimately limiting the number of spells we can set up period. Those two restrictions cut down on a Blue Mage's versatility to the point where it, too, has to choose what it ultimately needs to do. Do we run in, swords-a-swinging, pumping out WS-comparable damage with our physical spells? Or do we step back and support with our fairly-lackluster-yet-still-useful list of debuffs, nukes, and cures? The difference between how Red Mage reacts and how Blue Mage reacts differs: while Red Mages can just suit up to the change when it happens, Blue Mages need to take time to set themselves up correctly, so they almost have to try and predict what's going to happen *well* before it actually happens, which is a bad thing when something completely unexpected happens out of nowhere.

Ultimately, however, it really depends on how a player chooses to prepare and set himself, as well as how the general populace learns to see things in turn with the respective jobs. You want to learn how to melee effectively on Red Mage? Awesome, more power to you...just learn when it's appropriate to turn the dial back and focus more on the magic. Really, the same goes to any melee back-liner out there; WHMs, BLMs, SMNs, even BRDs and SCHs. It's possible, and if you can pull it off, all the more power to you, I have no qualms over you doing things that are fun and exciting (believe me, you haven't seen anything until you've seen a SCH single-handedly tank Poisonhand Gnadgad in Campaign...and survive). Hell, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a lot more "back-line" jobs step up and get to swinging, as well as gear that supports that ideal. But when the chips are down and it's time to do the role everyone expects you to do, don't sit there and say "no way, I'm playing how I want to play", because that ultimately creates disastrous results. Learn your job first. Toy around with the extra stuff later. =)

[Lisotte]

Isn't the term "melee mage" kinda oxymoronic?

[Sunrider]

Isn't the term "melee mage" kinda oxymoronic?No, it kinda isn't.

[Mirage]

Gandalf meleed too! Now and then.

[Economizer]

Also on the forefront are a Blue Mage's stats. Go ahead, do a comparison on the FFXI Stat Calculator (http://bellsouthpwp2.net/k/i/kinematicf/FFXI/StatCalculator/) between a no-subbed Hume Blue Mage and a no-subbed Hume Red Mage.
...
Surprising, isn't it? While both classes have the exact same HP and MP, the Red Mage ultimately pulls ahead in all but VIT and AGI, while the Blue Mage's stats remain *dead even throughout*. And yet, Blue Mages are almost universally shown to be in a more physical light, while being able to cast magic even at the front lines.

...

Have you ever even set spells on Blue Mage?

I actually have a relevant quote that sums up what I feel about this:


Learn your job first.

[Slvr_Stryker]

[[ comes in about a weekend later to look over things after going to an anime convention ]] ...hmm, someone trying to throw me for a loop by trying to correct me. Okay, let's see what I can do with this.

Have I ever set spells on Blue Mage? Yes. Do I know what most all of those spells do to our stats? Yes. Should I have clarified that the base stats were excluding stat boosts through set spells? Yeah, probably. But my above point still remains. Hell, it kinda even strengthens the fact that Square Enix, in their "wisdom" (whether you believe it to be or not) have set up Blue Mage in Final Fantasy XI to be that niche job. I was not lying when I said that their Blue Magic was what brings their uniqueness, because it truly is. From the wide variety of spell effects and damage output we could potentially provide, to the extra bonuses (and penalties, lest we forget) to our primary stats that a *very* large chunk of spells give to us, it is what allows us to become virtually anything. With planning.
And just so you don't think I forget about it, yes, I am incredibly aware of the very *short* range of a lot of our spells. A very large chunk of *all* of our spells require us to be within range of magic damage, with half of that being right next to the nasty thing and be affected by everything the monster can throw at us. But the facts still remain: statistically, without merits or any spells, BLUs have almost identical stats across the board, and in virtually all cases, are either weaker or on-par with the stats of a similarly-raced, non-geared, non-merited RDM.
Oh, and just so you think I'm not pulling all of this out of my ass, here are some numbers for you.
1: I started this game back in 2004. On PS2. Stayed on that system until only recently, likely about 6 months ago. Started Monk, made my mistakes (trust me, I still do from time-to-time), and I never *ever* consider myself the best player.
2: Picked up Blue Mage back when ToAU was first released, due to my like of playing with Blue Mages in previous FF games (granted, I never played them way back when 5/6 were around, but I still enjoyed it), and proceeded to learn its strengths and weaknesses. I'm *still* learning its strengths and weaknesses, and through that constant learning process, I learned my job *miles* better than your everyday BLU. I do still have faults (I'm terrible at tanking as a BLU, trust me. @_@), but it is, in my eye, my second top-tier job. I may not be the best, but I have seen and dealt with much worse.
So before you try and turn my quote around on me, it miiiiiiiiiiight help to do a little research yourself, mister Thelaughingman. I mean, you don't see me trying to attack your WHM, SCH, SMN, and THF based on misunderstood, non-clarified information on your part, do you? Oh, and hey, grats on the Gambanteinn, may you kick all sorts of ass with it. ^^

[Economizer]

Oh, and just so you think I'm not pulling all of this out of my ass,

What job we have leveled on a particular character doesn't make for a very good argument. Good arguments make for a good argument.


But the facts still remain: statistically, without merits or any spells, BLUs have almost identical stats across the board, and in virtually all cases, are either weaker or on-par with the stats of a similarly-raced, non-geared, non-merited RDM.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

This statistic is completely useless because it doesn't give any meaningful information. Nobody reasonably plays Blue Mage without setting spells, wearing gear, or meriting. Those things have more meaning on what Blue Mage is then what base stats it has will ever mean.

Blue Mages set spells. Those change stats. They give job traits. Blue Mage gets more numerous and way better job traits for melee than nuking, and physical spells to match. Those physical spells have their accuracy affected by your melee weapon as well, and are generally cheaper and faster casting then magical Blue spells. Blue Mage gets slapped on good melee gear on a regular basis as well.

Ultimately, if you don't want to be told to learn how to play a job, don't go into a thread with people who clearly know how to play their jobs and tell them to learn their job. And especially don't do it after failing to recognize what Blue Mage is especially good at out of all the things it is good at.

As for talking about White Mage, Scholar, or Summoner, this is a melee mage thread. If you need clarification on anything I've said, I'll give it to you in detail. I'd enjoy actually talking about the thread topic.