[Suggestion] ManeuverTP bonus

[Kristal]

I was wondering... what if PUP had access to a trait or equipment effect like [Tactical Maneuvers]?
Similar to Military Parade on BRD relic armor, this grants +x TP when using a maneuver while engaged where x is on-par to the stat bonus given by maneuvers.

I think it would somewhat offset the loss of TP gain from NOT using maneuvers, but not to the extent that it becomes overpowered and replaces melee. (And if it is, it could be tweaked by reducing the TP returned.)

It could also be affected by the different animators, so that Deluxe Animator gives more TP then Turbo Animator.

[Harnao]

thats actually a decent idea. They wont do though as then I can just use maneuvers to gian 100% TP without actually fighting the mob.

[Kristal]

thats actually a decent idea. They wont do though as then I can just use maneuvers to gian 100% TP without actually fighting the mob.

That could be covered by requiring the target mob to be claimed by your party. For example, you hit a mob, and next maneuver within 15 seconds will have the TP gain.

[Karbuncle]

thats actually a decent idea. They wont do though as then I can just use maneuvers to gian 100% TP without actually fighting the mob.

mmm, Why not? SAM and /SAM get Meditate, This could just be a lesser form of Meditate for PUPs. Its not like, what, 5~10 TP per Maneuver is going to break the job. (I'd say ~10Tp as its not a full attack round, but close, and the Delay on Maneuvers suuucks).

All things considered, at 10Tp per 10 Seconds, You're looking at 100% TP every 1 Minute and 40 Seconds. Which admittedly is a load better than SAMs... But it could also be a Level 95+ PUP Job Trait, so its PUP Exclusive.

I suppose I see your point though... I mean, It could also have stipulations like... (Not all Apply, Maybe 1-2)

1) Must be Engaged to an Enemy
2) Caps at 100% TP.
3) Only Work When Automaton is Engaged in Combat.

I'd like It to work Whenever, And just cap TP at 100%, Or make it to where the Maneuver's only grant ~5 TP, Making it more Comparable to Meditate (100% TP Would come in 3Minutes 20 Seconds).

Either way, I like the gist of the idea tremendously. I think a Job Trait at level 90~+ Would make it not too broken, If SE is feeling generous, 50+ (Out of Sub job range)

Should Translate this and post it on the JP Forum so SE considers it... ... ... ⌐ ⌐

[Dreamin]

You guys mean like:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Heat_Capacitor

[Ihnako]

I guess something that would work similar but passive

[Karbuncle]

You guys mean like:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Heat_Capacitor

I was under the impression they were asking for the master to get the TP, IN exchange for wasting their DPS on using a Maneuver... Not the Pet.

I Could have read the OP Wrong though.

[Kristal]

I was under the impression they were asking for the master to get the TP, IN exchange for wasting their DPS on using a Maneuver... Not the Pet.

I Could have read the OP Wrong though.

You read correctly. The TP gain is intended to offset the TP loss due to maneuver usage.

[Dreamin]

Tactical Switch (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Tactical_Switch) then?

Guess maybe I just dont get where's the whole losing TP is coming from using Maneuvers. Yeah, there's a time delay that you lose from punching the mob when you use maneuvers, but it's not a hugh deal. You can always go /SAM for mediate to gain more TP, go /DNC to store TP or haste samba and/or use WHM pet to get Haste from him. I'm missing something here. [I've just recently finished my PUP and still working on finishing up my gears for it as well as capping pet's RA - magic are done and melee 20 away from cap. So maybe I'm just missing the point here].

[Telford]

Tactical Switch (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Tactical_Switch) then?

Guess maybe I just dont get where's the whole losing TP is coming from using Maneuvers. Yeah, there's a time delay that you lose from punching the mob when you use maneuvers, but it's not a hugh deal. You can always go /SAM for mediate to gain more TP, go /DNC to store TP or haste samba and/or use WHM pet to get Haste from him. I'm missing something here. [I've just recently finished my PUP and still working on finishing up my gears for it as well as capping pet's RA - magic are done and melee 20 away from cap. So maybe I'm just missing the point here].

As a mnk do you boost every 15 seconds? Hopefully no, the small attack boost does not offset the damage lost from delaying melee rounds and the loss of tp that comes with it. Same with pup except we have to use maneuvers every 20 seconds to get the most out of our automatons. In general play its not a huge issue but in high haste/zerg situations PUP lose out on a lot of potential damage either by keeping maneuvers up or not using them and having our autos performance suffer.

[Dreamin]

Only when I'm standing around doing nothing. Or just being certain WS. I actually use maneuvers every 10s for 3 and then would wait til the 1st one is wear unless I need to replace/use a different element.

Can't think of a situation where High Haste/Zerg situations where ppl would invite a PUP though. In that case, I probably would go as MNK/WAR/SAM/DRG/DRK/etc. before I would go as PUP.

For the most part, I leveled PUP to see how it is different from SMN and BST. I've found that it's been an interesting difference especially given the variety of puppet job role we can do as PUP. Still learning this job though.

[Karbuncle]

Only when I'm standing around doing nothing. Or just being certain WS. I actually use maneuvers every 10s for 3 and then would wait til the 1st one is wear unless I need to replace/use a different element.

Can't think of a situation where High Haste/Zerg situations where ppl would invite a PUP though. In that case, I probably would go as MNK/WAR/SAM/DRG/DRK/etc. before I would go as PUP.

For the most part, I leveled PUP to see how it is different from SMN and BST. I've found that it's been an interesting difference especially given the variety of puppet job role we can do as PUP. Still learning this job though.

Okay, For the record, I would like to acknowledge you leveled the job simply to level it, and for the most part, it seems like you understand some basic of how DD's work... But I'll explain it pretty easily, Though you may already understand.

You're aware of a 2 Second Delay after JA's right? Well, Using a JA 3 Times every ~60 seconds is going to significantly hurt any DPS you might bring to the fight. While PUP Isn't going to zergs any time soon, They do get invited seldom to Voidwatch. Plus, IN most cases, your WHM pet will be giving you haste... Your Natural Martial Arts at 40% Haste (25% Gear, Haste 15%) Will put you at a pretty solid attack speed, to a point those 6 seconds every ~Minute or so are going to impact your DD a lot.

Overall, The suggestion from the OP, While it would not make up for our lost damage, It would help make up a little of our WS Frequency. PUP, Like pretty much every single pet job in the game, Suffers from the problem that they're not really good DD, and they excel at just about nothing overall. BST, SMN, and PUP all suffer from this... Pets = Make the job useless. Its really a pattern I'm surprised SE Doesn't see. DRG is only mildly saved because their pet is uncontrollable.

BST, SMN, and PUP all have little/no uses. BST is only good for Dynamis cause its idiot proof, SMN is only good for its 2hour, and PUP... Well is completely useless. (Outside of VW for all the above).

The gist of that is - Pet jobs, Like any tank class, are already dead enough, Would be quite nice if these little issues with it could be ironed out.

Hope i covered it well!

[xbobx]

I never really saw the issue in this. It is part of the job and something we just have to deal with. I would rather start seeing some more attachments being designed. I still want my TH attachment.
You can't have a job that is versatile to be the best DD in the game too, you need a trade off. And Pup is very strong as it is, that is if people know how to play it. What other job gets such a nice cure bot.

[Spiritreaver]

Tactical Switch (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Tactical_Switch) then?

Guess maybe I just dont get where's the whole losing TP is coming from using Maneuvers. Yeah, there's a time delay that you lose from punching the mob when you use maneuvers, but it's not a hugh deal. You can always go /SAM for mediate to gain more TP, go /DNC to store TP or haste samba and/or use WHM pet to get Haste from him. I'm missing something here. [I've just recently finished my PUP and still working on finishing up my gears for it as well as capping pet's RA - magic are done and melee 20 away from cap. So maybe I'm just missing the point here].

You aren't missing anything. Its a fact that using manuvers causes delay. It just that the vast majority of PUP see that delay as unacceptable. I'm in the very small minority that is fine with it as its an integral part of the job(using manuvers).

That said don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with the OP. If SE takes the suggestion and makes a change, cool. If not though, i'm not gonna be bummed out.


I never really saw the issue in this. It is part of the job and something we just have to deal with. I would rather start seeing some more attachments being designed. I still want my TH attachment.
You can't have a job that is versatile to be the best DD in the game too, you need a trade off. And Pup is very strong as it is, that is if people know how to play it. What other job gets such a nice cure bot.

Wonder of wonders, i actually agree with a post from bob(Well mostly, as i, to this day, do not understand ppl's obsession with pet jobs needing TH. And it more than just him i've seen asking for it by a large bit).

[Kristal]

Wonder of wonders, i actually agree with a post from bob(Well mostly, as i, to this day, do not understand ppl's obsession with pet jobs needing TH. And it more than just him i've seen asking for it by a large bit).

I want an TH attachment just to spite those THFs that can run around with maxed TH and still not deliver. Oh, and to one-up those snooty BSTs with their fancy-smancy TH pets.

[Karbuncle]

Who says they can't do both?

I'm not going to pretend to want to debate the importance of maintaining a functional DD level with people who could care less because it just makes me look like a psycho, But yah... They could add both the Functionally Worthless TH attachment and the TP return for Maneuvers.

[Dreamin]

I dont see what the big deal is though, no different than other jobs that has to use JA regularly, i.e. DNC comes to mind and as DNC, chances are you going to use more than 3x JA within very min (looking at min of 4/min for DNC just on steps). And when compare to DNC main, as PUP/DNC, I would gain more overall haste because I can use my WHM pet which will haste me so I can have both haste samba and haste up at the same time.

Guess I just look at that little loss of TP just part of playing PUP. Can't have everything and not have anything bad to go with the job. I mean, overall wise, I think the 'fixed' PUP has so many advantages over BST and SMN (in more situations at least). As SMN, our avatar is really our figter, as BST, we can choose to use our pet as fighter only or fight along with them. SMN's avatar's attack for the most part are weak (BP) but they have less hate associated with them. BST we have different JUGS (cuz we're realy Jugmaster now a day and not Beastmaster) but none of are Jugs can be main healer/enfeebler/nuker. None will keep me alive as it would if I play PUP (rabbit can not even come close to our WHM puppet). Now, at the flip side, I can't just keep tossing my pet at NM (certain types) as PUP and have them solo the NM for me while I just sit back and keep them alive as easy as I can with SMN or BST [at least I haven't started/tried this yet].

[Spiritreaver]

I want an TH attachment just to spite those THFs that can run around with maxed TH and still not deliver. Oh, and to one-up those snooty BSTs with their fancy-smancy TH pets.

Petty, but at least it is a step up from the standard forum response of, 'Just 'cause.'

Kudos

[Karbuncle]

I dont see what the big deal is though, no different than other jobs that has to use JA regularly, i.e. DNC comes to mind and as DNC, chances are you going to use more than 3x JA within very min (looking at min of 4/min for DNC just on steps). And when compare to DNC main, as PUP/DNC, I would gain more overall haste because I can use my WHM pet which will haste me so I can have both haste samba and haste up at the same time.

You do Realize DNC actually has the option of Getting that TP Back more than full with the use of Reverse Flourish, Right? Bad example is all.

But its neither here nor there though.

[Dreamin]

.

You do Realize DNC actually has the option of Getting that TP Back more than full with the use of Reverse Flourish, Right? Bad example is all.

But its neither here nor there though.

Of course, but we're talking about the 'ja' delay here I'm just saying that DNC typically would do at a min 1 more JA per min cycle. We are talking about the 'lost' of TP whichleads to ws frequency which is then translated to the total DPS of the job. DNC might get this TP back, but it's not necessarily true that they can use all these reclaimed TP nor can they always reclaim all these TP back at any definitive manners. They might have to use some of the finishing moves as flourishes (i.e. stun, voke, all situational dependent). They might miss their step and not get the FM and hence not get back the TP as fast. And each of these flourishes also added more 'delay' and lost of total DPS.

Going back on track here, but that's part of DNC's job description. For the most part and for most jobs, their JA is what defines them. Similarly for PUP, our puppet is what define us and you DON'T have to use maneuvers every 10s if you dont wanted to. But the fun and beauty of the different types of maneuvers we can/will use in associations with the different types of attachments/frame-head/situation is what gives PUP the variety that is lacking in BST or SMN (SMN could be corrected if SE ever decided to fix that job though).

[Theytak]

However, dnc doesn't necessarily need to use its JAs for it's damage to be acceptable, I won't pretend that I'm a dnc nor that I know how they function when working in high haste, though. Our automaton's need maneuvers to add any significant increase to our damage.

To kind of emphasize how much damage we lose, let me put it this way:
At haste cap, subbing war, and with about 25% DA (between gear and /war, and TA), 3 maneuvers/minute costs us 24 attack rounds in 5 minutes, which translates to ~70 attacks after DA procs. That equates down to ~14 attacks per minute, and costs us just under 1 ws/minute depending on store TP. Now, looking at the TP alone is already is significant loss in damage, but it's further exacerbated by H2H's nature as a DoT heavy weapon. By this I mean that h2h damage is more evenly split between regular attacks and ws (more so for mnk than pup, due to the differences in ws availability, and because of kick attacks, and it has changed over the years but it still holds true). Of all the weapons that use 1h stat mods (ie: 2 str = 1 atk 2 dex = 1 acc), h2h has the highest damage, and the highest delay (effectively, h2h is the 1h scythe) before martial arts comes into play. Mind you, h2h is different from 1h weapons for other reasons, but regardless. My point is, our regular melee attacks are a sizable portion of our over all damage.

Let's say that against whatever you're fighting, you can get ~1k damage from ws, and ~80 damage/hit (So this would be a relatively high defense nm); losing 14 hits every minute costs you 1120 damage at 80 damage/hit, every minute. So over 5 minutes, you'll lose between ~420 TP and ~70 attacks, or a potential 9600 damage. Remember, this is against a high defense target. Meanwhile, against the same high defense target, your puppet simply won't be able to put out that kind of damage. Sharpshot's damage comes almost entirely from WS, and it will likely have trouble generating significant TP against this target, and valoredge won't have the oomph behind its hits to make up for how much fewer and slower they will be. That's even accounting for how pet's get a large bonus from level correction.

If you want to consider it against a somewhat less sturdy target, let's say you're averaging ~1500 from ws (about what a good pummel average should be with the right gear against tougher mobs, outside abyssea) and ~130 damage/hit (a bit lower than we can do, but still reasonable). In this case, the haste is the same, and so are the number of attacks, but the difference in the amount of damage lost is significant. This time around, you're losing nearly twice as much damage from your regular hits as you are from ws, for a total of ~16500 damage over 5 minutes, of which only 6k comes from ws. Again, while your puppet will also be doing better, it still won't be doing enough to negate the damage lost. In fact, it will be worse. Armor Shatterer will at least offset a good amount of damage each time it goes off in the high defense scenario, but here, armor shatterer isn't much ahead of pummel, and will barely scratch the 10k you lose from melee attacks.


Now, in theory, I would agree with spirit; given the versatility of the job, this would be a mostly acceptable trade off. The problem is that our versatility is negated due to the overpowering presence of whm, and how poorly our nuking abilities have scaled post 75, which pretty much just leaves us with our ability to evade shit and solo stuff. We can't support a party, we can't really tank very well, out side of evasion kiting, but that's not really ever used now. All we're left with is our ability to do damage. Thus, we're forced to pay a massive penalty for effectively no beneficial tradeoff in group play. It's more of an issue with the system and the dev's latest endgame creations than with pup itself, but that doesn't mean we should have to put up with it.

[Spiritreaver]

However, dnc doesn't necessarily need to use its JAs for it's damage to be acceptable, I won't pretend that I'm a dnc nor that I know how they function when working in high haste, though. Our automaton's need maneuvers to add any significant increase to our damage.

To kind of emphasize how much damage we lose, let me put it this way:
At haste cap, subbing war, and with about 25% DA (between gear and /war, and TA), 3 maneuvers/minute costs us 24 attack rounds in 5 minutes, which translates to ~70 attacks after DA procs. That equates down to ~14 attacks per minute, and costs us just under 1 ws/minute depending on store TP. Now, looking at the TP alone is already is significant loss in damage, but it's further exacerbated by H2H's nature as a DoT heavy weapon. By this I mean that h2h damage is more evenly split between regular attacks and ws (more so for mnk than pup, due to the differences in ws availability, and because of kick attacks, and it has changed over the years but it still holds true). Of all the weapons that use 1h stat mods (ie: 2 str = 1 atk 2 dex = 1 acc), h2h has the highest damage, and the highest delay (effectively, h2h is the 1h scythe) before martial arts comes into play. Mind you, h2h is different from 1h weapons for other reasons, but regardless. My point is, our regular melee attacks are a sizable portion of our over all damage.

Let's say that against whatever you're fighting, you can get ~1k damage from ws, and ~80 damage/hit (So this would be a relatively high defense nm); losing 14 hits every minute costs you 1120 damage at 80 damage/hit, every minute. So over 5 minutes, you'll lose between ~420 TP and ~70 attacks, or a potential 9600 damage. Remember, this is against a high defense target. Meanwhile, against the same high defense target, your puppet simply won't be able to put out that kind of damage. Sharpshot's damage comes almost entirely from WS, and it will likely have trouble generating significant TP against this target, and valoredge won't have the oomph behind its hits to make up for how much fewer and slower they will be. That's even accounting for how pet's get a large bonus from level correction.

If you want to consider it against a somewhat less sturdy target, let's say you're averaging ~1500 from ws (about what a good pummel average should be with the right gear against tougher mobs, outside abyssea) and ~130 damage/hit (a bit lower than we can do, but still reasonable). In this case, the haste is the same, and so are the number of attacks, but the difference in the amount of damage lost is significant. This time around, you're losing nearly twice as much damage from your regular hits as you are from ws, for a total of ~16500 damage over 5 minutes, of which only 6k comes from ws. Again, while your puppet will also be doing better, it still won't be doing enough to negate the damage lost. In fact, it will be worse. Armor Shatterer will at least offset a good amount of damage each time it goes off in the high defense scenario, but here, armor shatterer isn't much ahead of pummel, and will barely scratch the 10k you lose from melee attacks.


Now, in theory, I would agree with spirit; given the versatility of the job, this would be a mostly acceptable trade off. The problem is that our versatility is negated due to the overpowering presence of whm, and how poorly our nuking abilities have scaled post 75, which pretty much just leaves us with our ability to evade shit and solo stuff. We can't support a party, we can't really tank very well, out side of evasion kiting, but that's not really ever used now. All we're left with is our ability to do damage. Thus, we're forced to pay a massive penalty for effectively no beneficial tradeoff in group play. It's more of an issue with the system and the dev's latest endgame creations than with pup itself, but that doesn't mean we should have to put up with it.

Everything you say there is true Jinte, Excepting the very top bit. But you did say you aren't a DNC and that covers you fine. I just wanted to iterate that DNC does need to use their JA's quite a bit to keep dmg up to some semblance of snuff.

DNC DoT can be massive if the player is doing as they should, no doubts there in the least. But WS DMG leaves much to be desired unless a DNC is using JA's as soon as the are up.

Reverse Flourish, Steps, Climactic Flourish, Haste Samba, etc.; DNC is a very JA intensive job if played properly. Gets TP super fast, but to transform that TP into DMG effectively you have to really stroke the job's JA's. I wish i could show how my DNC macros are laid out, that would explain it better than words.

Anyways to quickly end my contribution to this DNC sidetrack: JA use DNC vs. PUP-a good DNC is using WAY more in a given timeframe than a good PUP. You see DNC that is barely using abilities, they are doing it horrible.

[Theytak]

Everything you say there is true Jinte, Excepting the very top bit. But you did say you aren't a DNC and that covers you fine. I just wanted to iterate that DNC does need to use their JA's quite a bit to keep dmg up to some semblance of snuff.

DNC DoT can be massive if the player is doing as they should, no doubts there in the least. But WS DMG leaves much to be desired unless a DNC is using JA's as soon as the are up.

Reverse Flourish, Steps, Climactic Flourish, Haste Samba, etc.; DNC is a very JA intensive job if played properly. Gets TP super fast, but to transform that TP into DMG effectively you have to really stroke the job's JA's. I wish i could show how my DNC macros are laid out, that would explain it better than words.

Anyways to quickly end my contribution to this DNC sidetrack: JA use DNC vs. PUP-a good DNC is using WAY more in a given timeframe than a good PUP. You see DNC that is barely using abilities, they are doing it horrible.

What I was aiming for was that dnc can afford to use more JAs than pup can, and I just worded it poorly. Yes, dnc uses a lot more JAs, but they get a much larger benefit from those JAs, and many of them directly boost damage in large enough amounts to mostly/entirely (depending on the situation, the more haste involved, the more damage lost) negate the damage lost due to JA lag. Pup's maneuvers don't do that, they don't even bring the puppet up to what it should be at, relative to the player and other DDs, let alone negate the loss pup experiences from the constant need to use JAs.

[xbobx]

I honestly think this is the wrong direction. Either way, every job uses JA, many more then others and I think making some type of adjustment directly to addressing this seems like it could open a can of worms.
I think the simple adjustments are to increase the length a manuever stays active to 2 or 3 mins.
I think there are other things to worry about then this.

[Annahya]

I honestly think this is the wrong direction. Either way, every job uses JA, many more then others and I think making some type of adjustment directly to addressing this seems like it could open a can of worms.
I think the simple adjustments are to increase the length a manuever stays active to 2 or 3 mins.
I think there are other things to worry about then this.

I like this idea, and it got me thinking more along the lines of the "stances" that some other jobs have.

I wonder how it would impact things if the /ja Maneuvers were "on the fly changes" to pre-sets that could be made on the equipment screen; that way, we could set our automatons to Light/Light/Dark (or whatever, just pulled out of thin air) as a default - and if we manually use a maneuver to trigger something we want, it shuts off this default setting in favor of the system we have currently. That way, we could still tweak things on the fly, but for events like Neo-Nyzul, we would stand a better chance of getting invited (at least better than we have now, anyway).

Perhaps that would be overpowered - but it is the thought I had after reading your post, Bob. Regardless, I really hate that an interesting job (PUP or otherwise) is effectively excluded from content because of system issues like this.

Edit: Could even put the default on a cool-down timer. The Automaton has to be out for 1-2 minutes before the default maneuvers appear as buffs, and if you hit a manual maneuver they are cancelled until the Automaton goes the cooldown time without any maneuvers, at which point all three defaults appear again.

[FrankReynolds]

Everything you say there is true Jinte, Excepting the very top bit. But you did say you aren't a DNC and that covers you fine. I just wanted to iterate that DNC does need to use their JA's quite a bit to keep dmg up to some semblance of snuff.

DNC DoT can be massive if the player is doing as they should, no doubts there in the least. But WS DMG leaves much to be desired unless a DNC is using JA's as soon as the are up.

Reverse Flourish, Steps, Climactic Flourish, Haste Samba, etc.; DNC is a very JA intensive job if played properly. Gets TP super fast, but to transform that TP into DMG effectively you have to really stroke the job's JA's. I wish i could show how my DNC macros are laid out, that would explain it better than words.

Anyways to quickly end my contribution to this DNC sidetrack: JA use DNC vs. PUP-a good DNC is using WAY more in a given timeframe than a good PUP. You see DNC that is barely using abilities, they are doing it horrible.

Someone posted math on here a while back showing it and I doubt things have changed much since then, but as far as I know, DNC is gonna do its best damage by minimizing the number of JA it uses.

Unless of course your doing a Big nasty NM in a large group, where your steps etc can benefit everyone. But, I can't think of any events like that where people would be bringing a DNC.