FFXI fixed!

[Ragmar]

I get tired of reading all the retarded begging for instant gratification and easybutton content. I don't want FFXI to be like a F***book game. I think a basic but workable idea to fix the problem this creates, for those of us who want a more challenging FFXI experience, is a difficutly setting with scaled rewards.

Perhaps lock 2 hours and non job buffs (atma/atmacite/temp items) to set the highest level removing the PD/Zerg which has become the only real end game strategy. This would perhaps bring back tanking, an aspect of the game that has become holding adds while others zerged.

Reduce buffing options such as cruor buffs/atma/temps, abyssite/weakness items/temps, and 2 hours. Lowers the highest level rewards but still allows for participation/completion of content.

Free for all easybuttonmode (FFXI today) further reduces max rewards but allows perle/aurore/teal/AF3+1 players to participate/complete content.

I mean it just makes sense that the reward should be reflective of the investment. This way those who require instant gratification and easy buttons should be happy with the current easy mode version of FFXI. Elitests would have engaging long term LOLhardcore content with rewarding gear for their efforts. Those who fall in between would be able to choose event by event which difficulty they wanted to participate in.

Abyssea happened we can't really fix the diseases it spread but we can fix other and future content. I know some mobs currently require PD/zerg because of gimmik type abilities/AoE damage/time restrictions but these could be reworked to make this possible. THIS WOULD GIVE NEARLY EVERYONE THE CHANCE TO PLAY AT THEIR OWN LEVEL WHICH SHOULD MAKE MOST (REASONABLE) PEOPLE HAPPY.

The rewards would not have to be drastically different. For example if HQ was 15 str/dex 15 acc/att, the lower tier could be 13 str/dex 13 acc/att, lowest teir 11 str/dex 11 str/dex and most players would be happy. This allows devs to begin by creating non gimmicky/challenging content that not everyone can beat on the highest setting but also degrade the difficulty/rewards so others can also participate vs throwing out content only challenging to the least skilled players or content with gimmicks to create artifical challenge with only one viable strategy PD/Embrava zerg.

This is in no way meant to insult casuals either it's simply trying to fix FFXI so that all can enjoy it at their own level.

[Connavarr]

.......since when has FFXI ever been hard?

Also, if ya want to play without an "easy button" simply choose not to use Atma's/Cruor buffs/Temps/Atmacites for VW/Abyssea. Do Neo=nyzul without a SCH for Embrava. You may have suggested something like these things, but I'll bet damn near anything you use all of these things whenever you do these events.

Again, FFXI isn't hard, and anyone that has the gear earned it. It didn't magically show up in their DB's one day, barring bonanza winners.

[Trisscar]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/22110572.jpg

Every time I see this thread I want to do this to the poster:


http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/300/57279893.jpg

It works for dogs.


There is no dislike button, by clicking LIKE on this post you're also doing an unlike to the original poster's message.

[Ragmar]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/22110572.jpg

Every time I see this thread I want to do this to the poster:


http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/300/57279893.jpg

It works for dogs.

Every time I see a gimp post I wanna do the same thing.

[Reiterpallasch]

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/300/57279893.jpg

It works for dogs.
Oh I know the perfect poster who's face I'd love to rub in her own turds.


.......since when has FFXI ever been hard?

Also, if ya want to play without an "easy button" simply choose not to use Atma's/Cruor buffs/Temps/Atmacites for VW/Abyssea. Do Neo=nyzul without a SCH for Embrava. You may have suggested something like these things, but I'll bet damn near anything you use all of these things whenever you do these events.
I said this in a previous post, and I'll say it again: There is a HUGE difference between hard content where you need to be an exceptional player to succeed, and purposefully gimping yourself to make content 'artificially' harder for you.

[Ragmar]

.......since when has FFXI ever been hard?

Also, if ya want to play without an "easy button" simply choose not to use Atma's/Cruor buffs/Temps/Atmacites for VW/Abyssea. Do Neo=nyzul without a SCH for Embrava. You may have suggested something like these things, but I'll bet damn near anything you use all of these things whenever you do these events.

Again, FFXI isn't hard, and anyone that has the gear earned it. It didn't magically show up in their DB's one day, barring bonanza winners.

The fact that you don't understand why doing abyssea without cruor buffs or NNI without embrava says a lot. You could do VW without atmacites but it would just prolong the inevitable which is you will either proc proc proc fanatics fanatics fanatics until its dead or run out of fanatics and die from being one shotted. Why is it wrong to want an event that requires 18 people who actually know how to play their jobs instead of an event which requires PD/Embrava/zergs. Besides I'm asking for 3 modes so gimps can still be gimps, average players can be average but also a system where you can do things like lock out 2 hours/temps and such for a chance to get slightly better rewards.

[Arcon]

I said this in a previous post, and I'll say it again: There is a HUGE difference between hard content where you need to be an exceptional player to succeed, and purposefully gimping yourself to make content 'artificially' harder for you.

Very much this. I hate people who keep bringing up that argument. I'd actually like to see something like the OP suggests. Better rewards for harder difficulty.

[saevel]

Another troll another day.

#1 Click Ragmar
#2 Add to Ignore List
#3 ???
#4 Profit!

[Connavarr]

The fact that you don't understand why doing abyssea without cruor buffs or NNI without embrava says a lot. You could do VW without atmacites but it would just prolong the inevitable which is you will either proc proc proc fanatics fanatics fanatics until its dead or run out of fanatics and die from being one shotted. Why is it wrong to want an event that requires 18 people who actually know how to play their jobs instead of an event which requires PD/Embrava/zergs. Besides I'm asking for 3 modes so gimps can still be gimps, average players can be average but also a system where you can do things like lock out 2 hours/temps and such for a chance to get slightly better rewards.


You're asking for a challenge, yet when someone points out methods for you to have the very challenge you seek, that person doesn't understand it? As I said, this game is as easy or hard as the player wishes to make it. The variable difficulty you're seeking is right in front of you, use it if you so desire.

[Trisscar]

Okay, let me put it in a way I'm sure you'll probably understand.

I'm all up for a tough challenge, maybe one that can eat my face off and end my day early. But if I'm going to be doing content that requires me to essentially be at the tender mercy of something that is terrible to behold I expect there to be some reward at the end for my effort, and it better be something one can reliably find to be there waiting for them.

However the reality is that this is a game made by Squaresuck. They have a tendency to not reward you for your effort, don't matter how far you have to go, how hard you have to fight, how much pain you go through, even if evil stars align and victory becomes yours.

So no. If the drops are going to be like that, if the rewards aren't significantly better than what's already available, give me something that isn't so rough.

[Ragmar]

Another troll another day.

#1 Click Ragmar
#2 Add to Ignore List
#3 ???
#4 Profit!

Coming from someone who promotes RDM melee I don't mind a bit. I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself and all.

[Trisscar]

Coming from someone who promotes RDM melee I don't mind a bit. I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself and all.

Okay, let's turn this troll thread into something actually productive... What is wrong about melee Red Mage? How is it any more wrong than melee White Mage?

[Ragmar]

You're asking for a challenge, yet when someone points out methods for you to have the very challenge you seek, that person doesn't understand it? As I said, this game is as easy or hard as the player wishes to make it. The variable difficulty you're seeking is right in front of you, use it if you so desire.

And again you are missing the point. There is no challenge in abyssea without cruor buffs ... You would get one shotted left and right with all possible job buffs because the mobs damage output is designed around a WAR having 3000 HP not 1600. Somehow I fear myself and others could repeat this same point a thousand times and you would still fail to understand it. This might be a viable option if you recieved the HP from cruor buffs without getting the +50 to stats that also come with cruor buffs but you can't it's not an option. I guess you could argue using PD in abyssea to avoid getting one shotted but thats part of what I'd love to see SE go away from. I don't want to have to PD/Embrava/Zerg everything in game. I want challenges that require teamwork and players who know their jobs role in a party/alliance/setting. I want to fail if someone makes critical mistakes or atleast for it to be very hard to recover. Even at 75 with HNMs if a holding party messed up they would lose claim. I saw many a 10-12 man Faf go very badly from casting on darters. I'm not saying take anything away from easy mode players Id just like to see slightly better rewards for players who challenge themselves by not using Embrava/PD/Zerg/Temp items/non job buffs.

[Connavarr]

And again you are missing the point. There is no challenge in abyssea without cruor buffs ... You would get one shotted left and right with all possible job buffs because the mobs damage output is designed around a WAR having 3000 HP not 1600. Somehow I fear myself and others could repeat this same point a thousand times and you would still fail to understand it. This might be a viable option if you recieved the HP from cruor buffs without getting the +50 to stats that also come with cruor buffs but you can't it's not an option. I guess you could argue using PD in abyssea to avoid getting one shotted but thats part of what I'd love to see SE go away from. I don't want to have to PD/Embrava/Zerg everything in game. I want challenges that require teamwork and players who know their jobs role in a party/alliance/setting. I want to fail if someone makes critical mistakes or atleast for it to be very hard to recover. Even at 75 with HNMs if a holding party messed up they would lose claim. I saw many a 10-12 man Faf go very badly from casting on darters. I'm not saying take anything away from easy mode players Id just like to see slightly better rewards for players who challenge themselves by not using Embrava/PD/Zerg/Temp items/non job buffs.

Oh, really? It can't be done eh? I take it you haven't seen the vids of a melee RDM soloing Azdaja without any cruor buffs or atmas used. Try again.

Also, you need to realize it is the playerbase, not SE, that chooses to use the "easy button", the whole "optimal" set-up or don't bother. It is a fact that the players can beat Abyssea NM's without cruor buffs and atmas. It is a fact that the playerbase can achieve floor 100 clears in Neo-Nyzul without 4x pimped DD's and 2x SCH's for Embrava. It is a fact that the playerbase can beat VW NM's without atmacites/cruor buffs. It is also a fact that the playerbase CHOOSES to use these things, not for a challenge, but to increase the odds of winning. Or, ya know, we hit the "easy button" in order to quickly obtain the gear we desire.

You want a challenge? Stop hitting the easy button that's built in to damn near every event this game has. Stop using optimal set-ups for everything and you'll have the challenge you're after. It may take you longer to get 5/5 Nyzul gear, but you can in fact do it. Don't bitch to me about a lack of difficulty when it is the playerbase that are the ones using the button in the first place.

In regards to the rewards, what Trisscar said.

[Ragmar]

Okay, let's turn this troll thread into something actually productive... What is wrong about melee Red Mage? How is it any more wrong than melee White Mage?

I mean really if you have to ask ...

[Ragmar]

Oh, really? It can't be done eh? I take it you haven't seen the vids of a melee RDM soloing Azdaja without any cruor buffs or atmas used. Try again.

Also, you need to realize it is the playerbase, not SE, that chooses to use the "easy button", the whole "optimal" set-up or don't bother. It is a fact that the players can beat Abyssea NM's without cruor buffs and atmas. It is a fact that the playerbase can achieve floor 100 clears in Neo-Nyzul without 4x pimped DD's and 2x SCH's for Embrava. It is a fact that the playerbase can beat VW NM's without atmacites/cruor buffs. It is also a fact that the playerbase CHOOSES to use these things, not for a challenge, but to increase the odds of winning. Or, ya know, we hit the "easy button" in order to quickly obtain the gear we desire.

You want a challenge? Stop hitting the easy button that's built in to damn near every event this game has. Stop using optimal set-ups for everything and you'll have the challenge you're after. It may take you longer to get 5/5 Nyzul gear, but you can in fact do it. Don't bitch to me about a lack of difficulty when it is the playerbase that are the ones using the button in the first place.

In regards to the rewards, what Trisscar said.

You fail to understand why RDM can solo like that. If you think other jobs have that level of utility you are highly mistaken. WAR flat cant mitigate damage like that RDM. NIN can't either. Learn a little about RDM solo before you use it as a crutch to bolster your defense. Imma bet you are still on the lower tiers of VW if you think you are going to beat, lets say Bismark, without atmacite and temp items. Hell even with a lot of people still fail really hard on some VW NMs they arent all the joke nation T4's are.

[Trisscar]

I mean really if you have to ask ...

Yeah, I do have to ask. I don't have Red Mage leveled to 99 and I know practically nothing about it. So educate me.

[Arcon]

Okay, let's turn this troll thread into something actually productive... What is wrong about melee Red Mage? How is it any more wrong than melee White Mage?

They're both right, unless they wanna melee during a tough fight an alliance. Then they're both wrong. As long as they don't fuck up other peoples' plans, people can do whatever they want.

[Demon6324236]

And again you are missing the point. There is no challenge in abyssea without cruor buffs ... You would get one shotted left and right with all possible job buffs because the mobs damage output is designed around a WAR having 3000 HP not 1600.

Bullshit. There is a great RDM (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Odin/Ryuotas/#forum) on Odin who has soloed many Abyssea NMs without cruor buffs or atma, this is a RDM soloing. Your telling me you think partys of people couldn't kill them because of this? Just a few examples are him soloing Hedjedjet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkNdAqF_mKo&feature=player_embedded) that way, and Azdaja (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKFhHI74hNU&feature=player_embedded). If he can kill these, which are some of the harder NMs in Abyssea, solo, without cruor buffs or atma, then just how hard would it be with a proper party?

Your 1st post said...
Perhaps lock 2 hours and non job buffs (atma/atmacite/temp items) to set the highest level removing the PD/Zerg which has become the only real end game strategy. This would perhaps bring back tanking, an aspect of the game that has become holding adds while others zerged.Are you talking about new content that would be this way? Or some setting that just removed the ability to gain a bonus from these effects? If its the latter than
simply choose not to use Atma's/Cruor buffs/Temps/Atmacites for VW/Abyssea. Do Neo=nyzul without a SCH for Embrava.And with that, you have exactly what you asked for, because you now do not have those. If things are so easy then make it harder on yourself. If you had a difficulty setting then it would be no different at all, you would still have the choice, use buffs, make things easier, or leave them out of the picture, and you can try to fight without them, and make it harder as you wish.

The idea of having better rewards is stupid, that just makes it sound like you want to have some "pro" gear so you can show it off and gloat about it. Rewards should be equal, if you simply want the game harder, so be it, you have the ability to make it harder, rewards should not be different because you choose to do so. You want the game to be more fun for those of which want it harder, thats exactly what you can do, but if its only for fun then the rewards should not make much difference in the end, your enjoyment is what should matter, thus it is what you should get.

As for this argument...
I said this in a previous post, and I'll say it again: There is a HUGE difference between hard content where you need to be an exceptional player to succeed, and purposefully gimping yourself to make content 'artificially' harder for you.Not really, thats exactly what the OP made the idea sound like for the "hardcore" difficulty, that cruor buffs, atma, atmacite, Abyssite, and temp items, would be unavailable to the player. This simply means, don't use them, and ta da, you got what you asked for. As I said and pointed out earlier this post, people can solo Abyssea NMs, thats not to bad. People have soloed VWNMs as well, such as the Bastok T4, is it a T6 Jeuno? No, but thats where your lovely idea to come up with new strats comes in, work it, improvise! People solo what is talked about being uber hard in these threads without buffs, the simple thing is if people are soloing this, you can do it with a party and probably win if you get a good strat for it, but no one tries, because no one really wants it. You want them to weaken the NMs as well I suppose? Well that doesn't help because then your getting weaker NMs, and it becomes easier.



Short version:People solo what is supposedly to hard for a party to kill without super buffs, suck it up, you can have hard mode all you want already, its right there, just stop acting like it isn't an option.

[Ragmar]

Fine I'll entertain you. RDM lacks DD gear even though it can hit a 25-26% haste build (great for stun recast though). The plain and simple fact is the best RDM or WHM melee would lose a parse to a Perle WAR SAM or DRK in any parse all other things similar. So if you give a spot to a RDM (even an excal or almace) with all the best gear available for a melee build you would have still been better off bringing that 5/5 resolution WAR in perle and a swift belt. I've seen the best geared Melee RDMs try on NMs like Bot Rex or Ig Alima and they couldnt break 5% in the parse. It'd be like bringing a WAR/WHM with refresh atma's to abyssea as a main healer. Sure with the right atma/gear you might keep someone alive spamming cure 4's but its obviously not a good idea. RDM melee might not make you lose a fight but its certainly not going to help you win either. WHM has even less practical EG usage but this should be really obvious.

[Arcon]

As for this argument...Not really, thats exactly what the OP made the idea sound like for the "hardcore" difficulty, that cruor buffs, atma, atmacite, Abyssite, and temp items, would be unavailable to the player. This simply means, don't use them, and ta da, you got what you asked for.

Wrong, it's not what we asked for and it's not the same. We want to be able to use the tools SE gives us. That's what the entire game is about. We want content tailored to us, not tailor ourselves to the content. SE is designing the game.

Harder gameplay should also be rewarded adequately. There should be an incentive to do so. Soloing NMs in Abyssea is fun, don't get me wrong. I even do so myself on THF and SMN. But it's definitely not the same. I get nothing out of it and I have no reason to do it other than boredom. That's what SE could (and should) do about it. Actually challenging content, that requires us to use whatever we have available to beat it. Not limiting ourselves artificially by allowing/disallowing what we can or can't do.

[Trisscar]

Fine I'll entertain you. RDM lacks DD gear even though it can hit a 25-26% haste build (great for stun recast though). The plain and simple fact is the best RDM or WHM melee would lose a parse to a Perle WAR SAM or DRK in any parse all other things similar. So if you give a spot to a RDM (even an excal or almace) with all the best gear available for a melee build you would have still been better off bringing that 5/5 resolution WAR in perle and a swift belt. I've seen the best geared Melee RDMs try on NMs like Bot Rex or Ig Alima and they couldnt break 5% in the parse. It'd be like bringing a WAR/WHM with refresh atma's to abyssea as a main healer. Sure with the right atma/gear you might keep someone alive spamming cure 4's but its obviously not a good idea. RDM melee might not make you lose a fight but its certainly not going to help you win either. WHM has even less practical EG usage but this should be really obvious.

No one is talking about taking a melee White/Red Mage to Voidwatch fights, though.


They're both right, unless they wanna melee during a tough fight an alliance. Then they're both wrong. As long as they don't fuck up other peoples' plans, people can do whatever they want.

I hear that.

[Trisscar]

Harder gameplay should also be rewarded adequately.

Not happening, unless the new head hauncho has better vision than the old one.

[Demon6324236]

Wrong, it's not what we asked for and it's not the same. We want to be able to use the tools SE gives us. That's what the entire game is about. We want content tailored to us, not tailor ourselves to the content. SE is designing the game.
Perhaps lock 2 hours and non job buffs (atma/atmacite/temp items) to set the highest level removing the PD/Zerg which has become the only real end game strategy. This would perhaps bring back tanking, an aspect of the game that has become holding adds while others zerged.Locking these means taking away what is given to you by SE in an attempt to make things harder. Thats exactly what it sounds like, in which case that is able to be done now.

[Ragmar]

Bullshit. There is a great RDM (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Odin/Ryuotas/#forum) on Odin who has soloed many Abyssea NMs without cruor buffs or atma, this is a RDM soloing. Your telling me you think partys of people couldn't kill them because of this? Just a few examples are him soloing Hedjedjet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkNdAqF_mKo&feature=player_embedded) that way, and Azdaja (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKFhHI74hNU&feature=player_embedded). If he can kill these, which are some of the harder NMs in Abyssea, solo, without cruor buffs or atma, then just how hard would it be with a proper party?

Your 1st post said...Are you talking about new content that would be this way? Or some setting that just removed the ability to gain a bonus from these effects? If its the latter thanAnd with that, you have exactly what you asked for, because you now do not have those. If things are so easy then make it harder on yourself. If you had a difficulty setting then it would be no different at all, you would still have the choice, use buffs, make things easier, or leave them out of the picture, and you can try to fight without them, and make it harder as you wish.

The idea of having better rewards is stupid, that just makes it sound like you want to have some "pro" gear so you can show it off and gloat about it. Rewards should be equal, if you simply want the game harder, so be it, you have the ability to make it harder, rewards should not be different because you choose to do so. You want the game to be more fun for those of which want it harder, thats exactly what you can do, but if its only for fun then the rewards should not make much difference in the end, your enjoyment is what should matter, thus it is what you should get.

As for this argument...Not really, thats exactly what the OP made the idea sound like for the "hardcore" difficulty, that cruor buffs, atma, atmacite, Abyssite, and temp items, would be unavailable to the player. This simply means, don't use them, and ta da, you got what you asked for. As I said and pointed out earlier this post, people can solo Abyssea NMs, thats not to bad. People have soloed VWNMs as well, such as the Bastok T4, is it a T6 Jeuno? No, but thats where your lovely idea to come up with new strats comes in, work it, improvise! People solo what is talked about being uber hard in these threads without buffs, the simple thing is if people are soloing this, you can do it with a party and probably win if you get a good strat for it, but no one tries, because no one really wants it. You want them to weaken the NMs as well I suppose? Well that doesn't help because then your getting weaker NMs, and it becomes easier.



Short version:People solo what is supposedly to hard for a party to kill without super buffs, suck it up, you can have hard mode all you want already, its right there, just stop acting like it isn't an option.

You claim to be a RDM main and even have a bazaar quote saying you wanna be the best RDM ever and you dont understand the difference between a RDM soloing those mobs and how melee's with mages healing them is actually more difficult ... The same reason a RDM could solo sky mobs at 75 that alliances had issues with.

Mostly I'm talking about new content as SE isn't likely to revamp old content and some is just beyond fixing.

Regarding not using buffs in abyssea/VW you simply fail to understand that these mobs are designed with abilities that do damage based on the idea you use these buffs. It's not as simple as just dont use them. If you dont take cruor buffs in abyssea you are going to be sitting around 1600-2000 HP. As WAR with 3.5k HP, 40% DT and Pro/Shell I still take many nukes or AoE tp moves for 1k damage. You can't add HP with skill. You keep bring up solo from jobs like SCH RDM BLM that doesnt mean any of the other jobs would even stand a chance. Yes with DoT and damage mitigation SCH and RDM can be very effective in niche solo's. As far as weakening NMs I want them balanced around player stats at 99 to create a battle that isnt 100% win nor 5% win based on luck.

[Arcon]

Locking these means taking away what is given to you by SE in an attempt to make things harder. Thats exactly what it sounds like, in which case that is able to be done now.

I don't agree fully with the OP either, I just said I think it's an interesting concept. Give people some incentive for trying harder. At least in his scenario that incentive wouldn't be missing.

[Ragmar]

There is a difference between choosing to lock 2hrs for a BC for a chance at slightly better rewards than doing the BC without 2hrs for no reason except to be less productive. Those of us who would do the more challenging fight already know what we can do so doing it without 2hrs really is pointless. All that would do is make it take longer to get everyone the desired gear. People would choose to use non embrava/PD methods if there was a reason such as slightly better rewards. Otherwise they would use the easiest method to get all their members the gear as fast as possible. Simply adding 1~2 stats to the HQ version would be enough for most elitessts.

Also in regards to rdm melee yes there are threads with people trying to say its viable for that level content. Both WHM and RDM are a blast in campaign battle. Solo/lowman it can be very fun to use them in their non traditional roles.

[Demon6324236]

You claim to be a RDM main and even have a bazaar quote saying you wanna be the best RDM ever and you dont understand the difference between a RDM soloing those mobs and how melee's with mages healing them is actually more difficult ... The same reason a RDM could solo sky mobs at 75 that alliances had issues with.

Mostly I'm talking about new content as SE isn't likely to revamp old content and some is just beyond fixing.

Regarding not using buffs in abyssea/VW you simply fail to understand that these mobs are designed with abilities that do damage based on the idea you use these buffs. It's not as simple as just dont use them. If you dont take cruor buffs in abyssea you are going to be sitting around 1600-2000 HP. As WAR with 3.5k HP, 40% DT and Pro/Shell I still take many nukes or AoE tp moves for 1k damage. You can't add HP with skill. You keep bring up solo from jobs like SCH RDM BLM that doesnt mean any of the other jobs would even stand a chance. Yes with DoT and damage mitigation SCH and RDM can be very effective in niche solo's. As far as weakening NMs I want them balanced around player stats at 99 to create a battle that isnt 100% win nor 5% win based on luck.

A RDM can solo because it has Stoneskin, PDT, and Phalanx. Depending on sub you can also have defense bonus from /BLU, shadows from /NIN, or backup cures with erase from /DNC, along with all of the other abilities from various subjobs, but these are the more common for soloing. Now if you look at a WAR, you can have a party with a RDM casting Phalanx II on said WAR, this has been recovered, a WHM can cure and has Stoneskin cures as well if they are healing correctly, thus giving Stoneskin. Last you have PDT, which WAR stacks much easier than RDM does, meaning this is also yet again no problem.

I understand how RDM solos, I don't understand however why RDM soloing would be so much easier than a WAR, WHM, RDM, and 3 more DDs with a possible PLD, doing it. Let alone an entire Alliance. I don't fail to understand that the NMs were created with these things in mind to be used, I know this, but I also know you think it is to easy. So why not go outside of the box and make it harder by restricting yourself? If jobs can solo this content there is no reason why you should be getting 1 shotted, its not like in the vids I gave you he kited the NMs for 2 hours while watching them bleed out, he meleed them to death, fighting up close the entire time.

I used to play a ton of Guitar Hero, I got good enough I found Expert boring, so I start to play Expert while restricting myself, I would play with only 2 fingers, or only even 1. I did what I could to make it harder for me because I wanted the challenge, there was no extra reward, there was no reason why I should have, except I wanted to do it for fun. It seems very easily similar to what you could do with Abyssea if it is to easy for your liking, simply do what you must to make it harder, and thus funner, for you.

[Ragmar]

Also yeah its just an idea with only my input. It's an outline for a system not the final product. I think having the ability to choose difficulty settings for more dynamic battles and slightly better rewards for the accomplishment would be great though. I think it would allow more casual players to continue to progress and complete content yet still allow others to set the bar a little higher and recieve a reward for it.

[Ragmar]

A RDM can solo because it has Stoneskin, PDT, and Phalanx. Depending on sub you can also have defense bonus from /BLU, shadows from /NIN, or backup cures with erase from /DNC, along with all of the other abilities from various subjobs, but these are the more common for soloing. Now if you look at a WAR, you can have a party with a RDM casting Phalanx II on said WAR, this has been recovered, a WHM can cure and has Stoneskin cures as well if they are healing correctly, thus giving Stoneskin. Last you have PDT, which WAR stacks much easier than RDM does, meaning this is also yet again no problem.

I understand how RDM solos, I don't understand however why RDM soloing would be so much easier than a WAR, WHM, RDM, and 3 more DDs with a possible PLD, doing it. Let alone an entire Alliance. I don't fail to understand that the NMs were created with these things in mind to be used, I know this, but I also know you think it is to easy. So why not go outside of the box and make it harder by restricting yourself? If jobs can solo this content there is no reason why you should be getting 1 shotted, its not like in the vids I gave you he kited the NMs for 2 hours while watching them bleed out, he meleed them to death, fighting up close the entire time.

I used to play a ton of Guitar Hero, I got good enough I found Expert boring, so I start to play Expert while restricting myself, I would play with only 2 fingers, or only even 1. I did what I could to make it harder for me because I wanted the challenge, there was no extra reward, there was no reason why I should have, except I wanted to do it for fun. It seems very easily similar to what you could do with Abyssea if it is to easy for your liking, simply do what you must to make it harder, and thus funner, for you.

Now take into account hate control, fast cast, MDB traits, enspells, spikes, rate of tp feed and more... 1 RDMs TP feed vs 4 melee and a tank feeding it TP. its going to TP 4-5x as often because its getting tp faster from being hit more often. Ever wonder why its easier to duo WHM MNK than WHM MNK DRK WAR DRG SAM all at once ... RDMs mitigate dmg much better and feed tp at a slower rate meaning all they have to do is not get one shotted and they shouldnt die. You maybe forget how limited the WHMs MP is going to be without atma/cruor buffs. The faster you feed tp the faster you burn MP where as RDM has this unique ability to balance it all and just outlive the mob. Stop watching videos and get some first hand knowledge. This has been well understood for years now.

[Demon6324236]

As I said, a RDM & a WHM in your party, this provides 2 healers, also it allows for the RDM to Phalanx everyone, helping with damage mitigation, while also giving Refresh II to your WHM, allowing them to have more MP supply. Now days there is alot of refresh gear for jobs, so that can help as well so long as they are in that gear when not healing. As for your list of things to take into account, don't have everyone on at once if it becomes a problem with hate, fast cast shouldn't be needed since your melees are doing no casting, your RDM can do things fast still. MDB I will give you, but still, gear can do it. Enspells and spikes are not much damage, in fact since your using a WAR as an example, your WAR should easily outdo a RDM right? So thats nothing to matter, unless you meant spike enfeebles, which your RDM can easily provide via casting.

[Modoru]

Play dynamis without a sub, yaaaay.

[Connavarr]

I am utterly amazed that you think a party/alliance can't beat Abyssea NM's without Atma/cruor buffs when a RDM can do it solo. Melee style, not kiting it as was the case for those sky solos. Not grav/bio. Not pinning, straight up one on one melee style. If a job, any job, can do it solo, then a party/alliance for damn sure can do it, too.

[Camiie]

I get tired of reading all the retarded begging for instant gratification and easybutton content.

Please link to the threads where this is happening. Examples please.


I don't want FFXI to be like a F***book game.

What exactly makes it seem like a Facebook game?


I think a basic but workable idea to fix the problem this creates, for those of us who want a more challenging FFXI experience, is a difficutly setting with scaled rewards.

Like WoW?


Perhaps lock 2 hours and non job buffs (atma/atmacite/temp items) to set the highest level removing the PD/Zerg which has become the only real end game strategy. This would perhaps bring back tanking, an aspect of the game that has become holding adds while others zerged.

Couldn't they just become a bit more imaginative with mob design and offer some variety? It's not always bad to have some zerg fights in there along with the tank n' spank or kite n' nuke.


Reduce buffing options such as cruor buffs/atma/temps, abyssite/weakness items/temps, and 2 hours. Lowers the highest level rewards but still allows for participation/completion of content.

I still don't see why you can't do that yourself. Are you so lazy that SE has to do it for you? Or is it just that you expect to be specially rewarded for beating something with one-hand tied behind your back? I thought this was about the challenge.


Free for all easybuttonmode (FFXI today)

Neo-Nyzul and Legion are easybuttonmode?


further reduces max rewards but allows perle/aurore/teal/AF3+1 players to participate/complete content.

There really aren't as many of those players out there as you seem to think. People with much better gear than that are still looked down upon by people like yourself.


I mean it just makes sense that the reward should be reflective of the investment.

So if I took 6 years of battling the R.N.G. to get a Ridill mine should have been a Kraken Ridill?


This way those who require instant gratification and easy buttons should be happy with the current easy mode version of FFXI. Elitests would have engaging long term LOLhardcore content with rewarding gear for their efforts. Those who fall in between would be able to choose event by event which difficulty they wanted to participate in.

What's ironic is, the ones most likely to use cheats/gimmicks/hacks/most efficient path of least resistance are the elitist hardcore players.



Abyssea happened we can't really fix the diseases it spread but we can fix other and future content.

Please elaborate on what diseases Abyssea spread.


I know some mobs currently require PD/zerg because of gimmik type abilities/AoE damage/time restrictions but these could be reworked to make this possible. THIS WOULD GIVE NEARLY EVERYONE THE CHANCE TO PLAY AT THEIR OWN LEVEL WHICH SHOULD MAKE MOST (REASONABLE) PEOPLE HAPPY.

Zerg shouldn't be in every fight or even a majority, but it should be a valid strategy for some.


The rewards would not have to be drastically different. For example if HQ was 15 str/dex 15 acc/att, the lower tier could be 13 str/dex 13 acc/att, lowest teir 11 str/dex 11 str/dex and most players would be happy.

Those are drastically different. In FFXI a couple stat points are often the difference between "OMG I GOTTA HAVE IT" and "Meh, not worth the hassle."


This allows devs to begin by creating non gimmicky/challenging content that not everyone can beat on the highest setting but also degrade the difficulty/rewards so others can also participate vs throwing out content only challenging to the least skilled players or content with gimmicks to create artifical challenge with only one viable strategy PD/Embrava zerg.

I think they've proven by now that they simply don't know how to do this within the confines of FFXI gameplay.


This is in no way meant to insult casuals either it's simply trying to fix FFXI so that all can enjoy it at their own level.

You were pretty insulting.

[Dreamin]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_86-X5Fn-0UA/TJ2aSnPmBoI/AAAAAAAAFYg/L61h9zVTRsM/s1600/not_this_shit_again.jpeg

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/23300000/Popcorn-and-Cola-popcorn-23343587-305-393.jpg

[Mirabelle]

What's ironic is, the ones most likely to use cheats/gimmicks/hacks/most efficient path of least resistance are the elitist hardcore players.



This so much. NNI was meant to be hardmode. What did the hardcore do? Found ways to exploit the system to get their gear.

[Arukia]

This so much. NNI was meant to be hardmode. What did the hardcore do? Found ways to exploit the system to get their gear.
What else can we expect. New hard content? 2 way to solve this problem:
A.) Whine about how hard and ridiculous such content is.
B.) Find a loophole, obtain all your gear, whine about how easy rest of the contents are.
Enjoy the game for what it really is? such illogical thought should be banished!

I think as it is the game is pretty good in terms of hard/easy content and rewards for such content. Those who truly seek challenge for the thrill and to test their skill knows that it's there. This is the same deal as Zelda's heart. Don't tell me people who skip getting hearts in Zelda is purposely gimping themself and that's not a good game design. It was purposely left as an option for a reason.

[Sarick]

....

Please edit your first post to include this..


There is no dislike button, by clicking LIKE on this post you're also doing an unlike to the original poster's message.

It'll help a lot since you got it an early response. We need less people replying and more people voting against garbage ranting troll post like this original posters topic. :confused:

[Trisscar]

Fixed it, Sarick.

[Hayward]

Let's take this dreck post to it's extreme conclusion, shall we:

*Increase EXP for each level tenfold
*Increase monster ATK tenfold and decrease player stats to 1/10.
*Decrease the accuracy of Weapon skills by 50%
*All NMs get Spike Flail-type moves that cannot be stunned and can be used at any time.
*Modify AF3+2 stats to become even with WotG Campaign gear sets.
*Decrease drop rates to .1% for the strongest gear.

Hardcore enough for you, pros?

[Mefuki]

I'm unsure why not taking certain cruor buffs, atma/atmacite, using certain items or certain JA/magic is not a legitimate way to increase difficulty. Is it any different then doing a 3 heart runs in Zelda or no sphere grid run in FFX? People choose not to do things on purpose all the time in single player games in order to adjust difficulty and challenge themselves.

[FrankReynolds]

I'm unsure why not taking certain cruor buffs, atma/atmacite, using certain items or certain JA/magic is not a legitimate way to increase difficulty. Is it any different then doing a 3 heart runs in Zelda or no sphere grid run in FFX? People choose not to do things on purpose all the time in single player games in order to adjust difficulty and challenge themselves.

Because the the goal is for him to have something that you can't have. Turning off atmas won't do that for him. He needs some gear that you can't get and he needs everyone to know he's better than you. everything else in his post (turning off atmas, not using temps etc.) already exists. He just wants better shinies than everyone else.

[Mefuki]

Because the the goal is for him to have something that you can't have. Turning off atmas won't do that for him. He needs some gear that you can't get and he needs everyone to know he's better than you. everything else in his post (turning off atmas, not using temps etc.) already exists. He just wants better shinies than everyone else.

Hmm, well if that's the case, what about Neo Nyzul gear or Legion gear or Pulse Arms? Granted they're not exceptionally rare but most players don't have that stuff. Particularly Pulse Arms. The last census showed that only 236 Ephemeron exist. Out of an estimated 250K active players, I think that's fairly rare.

[Reiterpallasch]

Play dynamis without a sub, yaaaay.
And by doing so, you get greater rewards for making the content harder by now being able to white !! mobs for 100s.


Because the the goal is for him to have something that you can't have. Turning off atmas won't do that for him. He needs some gear that you can't get and he needs everyone to know he's better than you.
His goal is to have harder content with better rewards. If you "can't have it", it's not because he doesn't want you to. It's that you "can't have it" because you're (general, not you specifically) not good enough to complete the content and earn the reward.


Like WoW?
This would be the right way to do it, realistically. Lets look at how the raiding system works in WoW:
Raid finder: Easy content that anyone can do, that gives decent enough rewards that keep most people happy.
Normal modes: Average difficulty that drops a more powerful version
Hard modes: Hardest content that drops the best form of the gear. As it's the best, only the best can get it.

NNI is similar in a sense, in that there are varying tiers of the same gear based on how good you are and how far you can progress through the content. SE just went about implementing it in all the wrong ways, though.

[Sarick]

I don't agree fully with the OP either, I just said I think it's an interesting concept. Give people some incentive for trying harder. At least in his scenario that incentive wouldn't be missing.

You want incentive.

Increased drop rates like dynamis where you limit yourself. Other then that the items should be the same.

[FrankReynolds]

It's that you "can't have it" because you're (general, not you specifically) not good enough to complete the content and earn the reward.


That's true of every single thing in the game.

Good game companies make it so that bad asses get the gear first, and then get to show boat it for a while before all the lame ducks catch up. Then when the masses start catching up, they add new shiny stuff for the bad asses to chase and repeat the process. That way every group is represented and has something to do.

He wants SE to create some magical event that is just hard enough that only people who play at a certain skill level can obtain the gear from it and he assumes that he is of that skill level. He is hoping they design something that most people will not be able to do at all and SE is attempting this. This is how we got to all this PD Zerg crap.

Basically, its not good enough for him to get every item in the game long before everyone else because he is better at the game than them. He wants to go a step further and make it so that those people can never get the items he has.

This is what we call greed.

[SpankWustler]

Am I missing something, or is the first post in this topic essentially describing Legion and Neo-Nyzul Isle? While the events don't function in exactly that way, there are definitely some rewards for okay performance and additional rewards for good performance. Both are as hard as anything within FFXI has ever been.

I'm not sure why somebody would get so palpably angry while asking for things that already exist. I don't scream at the heavens asking for a white liquid to squirt out of cow-boobs so I don't have to eat my Special K with Protein dry.

[Arcon]

Basically, its not good enough for him to get every item in the game long before everyone else because he is better at the game than them. He wants to go a step further and make it so that those people can never get the items he has.

I can't speak for him, I'm sure that applies to some people, but personally I don't care for other people not having gear. I care about being rewarded for skill. I don't care if other people get better and get it themselves. But I don't see why being actually good shouldn't be rewarded.

And no, dedication is not skill. A relic means shit to me. Legion and Neo-Einherjar gear means more than five relics, because it means I was able to beat that content. Nothing in Dynamis is worth beating as a display of skill. That's what difficulty in a game means to me. Just having gear sooner than others means absolutely nothing. What about VW gear? If someone has it sooner, does that mean they're better, or hardcore or more dedicated? I know that's just an example of SE doing it bad, but even other things I can think of do not reward skill with time to obtain, Abyssea gear and empyrean weapons come to mind. Sure, skilled people can do them faster. But it's still easy, it is no test of skill. That's what I'm interested in.

Legion and Neo-Einherjar are steps in the right direction. I'd like to list Neo-Nyzul too, but luck is a bigger factor than skill in it, so I won't. It feels SE overshot their goal on that one, but an optimist would still call it a nice try.

[FrankReynolds]

I can't speak for him, I'm sure that applies to some people, but personally I don't care for other people not having gear. I care about being rewarded for skill. I don't care if other people get better and get it themselves. But I don't see why being actually good shouldn't be rewarded.

And no, dedication is not skill. A relic means shit to me. Legion and Neo-Einherjar gear means more than five relics, because it means I was able to beat that content. Nothing in Dynamis is worth beating as a display of skill. That's what difficulty in a game means to me. Just having gear sooner than others means absolutely nothing. What about VW gear? If someone has it sooner, does that mean they're better, or hardcore or more dedicated? I know that's just an example of SE doing it bad, but even other things I can think of do not reward skill with time to obtain, Abyssea gear and empyrean weapons come to mind. Sure, skilled people can do them faster. But it's still easy, it is no test of skill. That's what I'm interested in.

Legion and Neo-Einherjar are steps in the right direction. I'd like to list Neo-Nyzul too, but luck is a bigger factor than skill in it, so I won't. It feels SE overshot their goal on that one, but an optimist would still call it a nice try.

You need to find another way to be rewarded is all I can say. Having good gear makes doing events easier. Its a fact that doing Neo-nyzul in pink gear is never gonna reward you with that floor 100 win. That means that when they come out with the next event that's even harder and people start going "sorry buddy, we only let people in our shell who have 15/15 neo-nyzul gear, then said pink player has reached the end of the road. his problems grow exponentially as they add more and more events that require higher and higher levels of weapons and gear. Eventually he is excluded from everything worth doing.

They really need to come up with some other reward anyways, because the truth is that they are running out of places to go with the gear. I appreciate that your desires are somewhat more out of a desire to excel, but most people only care about the loot. Let's face it, a lot of the older content is just as fun now as it was then, but people only care about the quality of the gear it drops. Maybe they should just make things drop straight cash. That way people get rewarded for the challenge, and people who can't kill it don't get excluded from the next big event just because they suck at the first one.

[Teraniku]

I can't speak for him, I'm sure that applies to some people, but personally I don't care for other people not having gear. I care about being rewarded for skill. I don't care if other people get better and get it themselves. But I don't see why being actually good shouldn't be rewarded.

And no, dedication is not skill. A relic means shit to me. Legion and Neo-Einherjar gear means more than five relics, because it means I was able to beat that content. Nothing in Dynamis is worth beating as a display of skill. That's what difficulty in a game means to me. Just having gear sooner than others means absolutely nothing. What about VW gear? If someone has it sooner, does that mean they're better, or hardcore or more dedicated? I know that's just an example of SE doing it bad, but even other things I can think of do not reward skill with time to obtain, Abyssea gear and empyrean weapons come to mind. Sure, skilled people can do them faster. But it's still easy, it is no test of skill. That's what I'm interested in.

Legion and Neo-Einherjar are steps in the right direction. I'd like to list Neo-Nyzul too, but luck is a bigger factor than skill in it, so I won't. It feels SE overshot their goal on that one, but an optimist would still call it a nice try.



You need to find another way to be rewarded is all I can say. Having good gear makes doing events easier. Its a fact that doing Neo-nyzul in pink gear is never gonna reward you with that floor 100 win. That means that when they come out with the next event that's even harder and people start going "sorry buddy, we only let people in our shell who have 15/15 neo-nyzul gear, then said pink player has reached the end of the road. his problems grow exponentially as they add more and more events that require higher and higher levels of weapons and gear. Eventually he is excluded from everything worth doing.



See and here's the thing, just because he / she is in pink gear doesn't necessarily mean that said person is an unskilled player, at the least, it means that maybe they don't have the friends you do, that can help them achieve at least getting Abyssea gear, then going from there. You'll never know though because you make an assumption, and write them off without ever getting to know the person and how they play.

[FrankReynolds]

See and here's the thing, just because he / she is in pink gear doesn't necessarily mean that said person is an unskilled player, at the least, it means that maybe they don't have the friends you do, that can help them achieve at least getting Abyssea gear, then going from there. You'll never know though because you make an assumption, and write them off without ever getting to know the person and how they play.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to say that the imaginary pink person was a bad player. That was not my point at all.

[Arcon]

You need to find another way to be rewarded is all I can say. Having good gear makes doing events easier. Its a fact that doing Neo-nyzul in pink gear is never gonna reward you with that floor 100 win. That means that when they come out with the next event that's even harder and people start going "sorry buddy, we only let people in our shell who have 15/15 neo-nyzul gear, then said pink player has reached the end of the road. his problems grow exponentially as they add more and more events that require higher and higher levels of weapons and gear. Eventually he is excluded from everything worth doing.

That's actually a quantitative issue instead of a qualitative one. You can't flat out say that's always the case, but it actually depends on what the gear is like. While Neo-Nyzul gear is indeed godly, it's far from necessary. That's one of the advantages Abyssea brought with it that I mentioned in another thread just last night: it set an even ground for Lv99 content. You can consider someone with AF3+2 gear to be well-geared. Which is no indication of skill by itself, but which means they aren't limited by bad gear, as a pink player would be. A skilled player can only be as good as his gear allows, and Abyssea gear goes a long way in that regard.

I don't see exclusion by gear being much of a problem, at least not to the degree it used to be. A RDM with the AF2 head had a major advantage because 1MP/tick Refresh meant a lot back in the day. These days standard gear adds so much in terms of stats that even Neo-Nyzul adds no qualitative advantages anymore. All the necessary gear to make a great player is readily available in form of AF3+2, AF2+2 and some random pieces you can get here and there. You can cap PDT and MDT without a Laeradr Breastplate. You can cap Haste without Phorcys Dirs. You can cap Cure Potency without Nares Trews. The list goes on.

Hence I don't see why adding rewards that are actually difficult to come by (in terms of skill, not luck or time) would upset balance in the game's community. Cases such as the one you mentioned seem unlikely to me. They wouldn't even have to battle-related, if you ask me, but even just convenience items, such as movement gear, or inventory savers for stats that are already easy to cap like PDT/MDT gear or Cure Potency. Trophy items could work too, but I don't think many people would be motivated just for those.

I know that people who ask for these things usually seem like elitist who wanna be better than others. But as I said, I don't care for that. I've beaten countless single-player games on extreme, not because that gave me any advantage over someone else, but because I wanted to test my skills. I will admit though, that that mentality is more appropriate for offline-games. MMORPGs are more of a project, something to build and grow your character in and play for the sake of playing, rather than for the sake of achievement. But I can't help feeling like something would be missing if I just played it without trying to improve my skills all the time, which, as I said, would be pointless if there was nothing to do it for. And I think I'm not the only one who feels that way.

[Rezeak]

/check AH http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Phoenix/Ragmar

Ironic the guy that complains how the game is too easy w/ buffs is paying pple to do content for him (buying abyssea items) if it's so easy why are you paying other to do it for you lol.

[Reiterpallasch]

/check AH http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Phoenix/Ragmar

Ironic the guy that complains how the game is too easy w/ buffs is paying pple to do content for him (buying abyssea items) if it's so easy why are you paying other to do it for you lol.
Making gil is also easy. There are cases where it's simply more efficient to make gil and pay than it is to do the actual leg work.

[Ragmar]

I like when people say I'm an elitest. The neareset and dearest friends I have in game dont even gear swap lol. I don't care because each knows the function of their jobs, when they don't know something they ask and actually listen. I don't play WoW so I don't know how their system is but if it allows players to complete the same content with difficulty settings and rewards based on each then yes sounds nice. I'm not trying to keep anyone from getting gear I'm wanting a system which requires/encourages players learn more than how to abyssea worm exp party, then go spam super easy content (largely leeching off others, you know that BLU you invite who, mid fight, you find doesnt have the proc spells they said they did or the BRD who cant proc with his 100 lvl magic skills) to obtain top notch gear. You can bring up abyssea all you want, saying simply remove crour buffs and atma for your challenge. If you take a WAR with full buffs from WHM RDM and BRD you are still going to find plenty of mobs that will one shot him with tp moves because that isnt how these mobs were designed to be fought. Do yourself a favor and just go see how much damage Rani does even with cruor buffs. Besides abyssea is dead aside from people farming empy's and its not content I'm asking to be changed so you wouldnt be losing your easymode its ok relax. NNI meh whatever can be beat without 3rd party tools just ends up being about the RNG and needing very job specific set ups/2hr abilities. Yay Legion PD/Embrava/zerg (least skilled strategy) only strategy okgo ... I would like to see content that requires NINs and PLDs doing more than holding adds and procing swift blade/shield bash/ninjitsu/katana. Locking 2hrs would force alliances to use other strats requiring a higher level of skill than WS every 100 tp to complete the content and hopfully encouraging the lesser skilled to improve. PD zergs require well geared players not skilled. I'd like to see the emphasis on a players skill not gear. Such an elitest.

[Ragmar]

/check AH http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Phoenix/Ragmar

Ironic the guy that complains how the game is too easy w/ buffs is paying pple to do content for him (buying abyssea items) if it's so easy why are you paying other to do it for you lol.

Yeah I wanna finish my last 14 +2 pieces to be 100/100 without dragging my buddies who have much less around ... seemed kinda selfish so I thought Id see if a merc was selling since gil is lulz easy to farm. If I dual boxed with a WHM alt I wouldnt need friends to finish them but I don't. Did you farm every piece of currency for your rag and apoc? I hope you didn't buy currency because you found dynamis hard ... I imagine you bought it out of convenience. Can I go solo mobs in abyssea to complete my pieces faster than I can make the gil to buy them ... no so why would I? Same reason I bought my pops for Ochain rather than farming each and every T2 and T3 VNM.

[FrankReynolds]

Yeah I wanna finish my last 14 +2 pieces to be 100/100 without dragging my buddies who have much less around ... seemed kinda selfish so I thought Id see if a merc was selling since gil is lulz easy to farm. If I dual boxed with a WHM alt I wouldnt need friends to finish them but I don't. Did you farm every piece of currency for your rag and apoc? I hope you didn't buy currency because you found dynamis hard ... I imagine you bought it out of convenience. Can I go solo mobs in abyssea to complete my pieces faster than I can make the gil to buy them ... no so why would I? Same reason I bought my pops for Ochain rather than farming each and every T2 and T3 VNM.

Rewarding players who already think the content is too easy with gear that makes the content easier, exacerbates the problem. How about they give out gear that makes you suck, but doubles your chances of drops when you win something. That way you need to bring lame players along to kill stuff, but good players increase the odds of drops. That way everybody benefits. You get better drops, more challenge and a reason to include people who would normally be left out. :P

[Luvbunny]

/check AH http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Phoenix/Ragmar

Ironic the guy that complains how the game is too easy w/ buffs is paying pple to do content for him (buying abyssea items) if it's so easy why are you paying other to do it for you lol.

LMAO I know right, these so called snowflakes are total BS.... They can't even do abyssea content on their own and yet complaint about every single things and blame abyssea for everything. If it was so easy, go do it on your own, dual box whatever, and get it done. And please don't talk about efficiency, that word is for "casual and lazy players" hah ha hah. I thought the whole "fake imaginary achievement" that these snowflakes get is for completing arduous super grindy activities on their own so that they can tower about everyone else and get their self entitlement epeen feeling.

[Ragmar]

LMAO I know right, these so called snowflakes are total BS.... They can't even do abyssea content on their own and yet complaint about every single things and blame abyssea for everything. If it was so easy, go do it on your own, dual box whatever, and get it done. And please don't talk about efficiency, that word is for "casual and lazy players" hah ha hah. I thought the whole "fake imaginary achievement" that these snowflakes get is for completing arduous super grindy activities on their own so that they can tower about everyone else and get their self entitlement epeen feeling.

Dont be so jelly LB you will get an empy eventually. Probably. Maybe. Hopefully. Well maybe someone will read one of your posts begging for others to leave abyssea so you can complete one and feel sorry enough for you they will just make you one.

[Luvbunny]

Dont be so jelly LB you will get an empy eventually. Probably. Maybe. Hopefully. Well maybe someone will read one of your posts begging for others to leave abyssea so you can complete one and feel sorry enough for you they will just make you one.

LOL, I am not jealous, heck I been collecting all the drops from many NMs all along on my own leisurely time. I would have done a few had I just focus on nothing but abyssea and spam grind these empy since they are very very very doable, heck I can pop Carabose and Briareus all day long if I wanted to and be done with it in a week. Dual boxing has its own advantage you know lol, and beastmasters combo + summoners can pretty much take care of these NMs with ease. And yes there are plenty of things to do beside abyssea :)

[Ragmar]

LOL, I am not jealous, heck I been collecting all the drops from many NMs all along on my own leisurely time. I would have done a few had I just focus on nothing but abyssea and spam grind these empy since they are very very very doable, heck I can pop Carabose and Briareus all day long if I wanted to and be done with it in a week. Dual boxing has its own advantage you know lol, and beastmasters combo + summoners can pretty much take care of these NMs with ease. And yes there are plenty of things to do beside abyssea :)

OMG you dual box and still havn't completed an empy LOL. /comfort. I guarentee I spend less time in abyssea than you lol.

[Ragmar]

I dont know what else you've been doing since you dont have all jobs 99 so you arent exping, no NNI gear, hardly any VW progress which makes it doubtful you are doing Neo Limbus/Odin and Legion, so what? Dynamis? Old lvl 75 content? You have made very little progress in FFXI (even dual boxing which makes the game that much more lulz) so I'm really not sure what you have been doing lol.

[Rezeak]

Did you farm every piece of currency for your rag and apoc? I hope you didn't buy currency because you found dynamis hard ... .

I'm not the one complaining about dyna or relics or trying to get the game changed if i was you could acully use that point.

Either way you proved your self wrong apparently it's easier to make gil than to do abyssea meaning there some type on challenge even if it's just a time sink (which most mmos are)


I like when people say I'm an elitest.


Dont be so jelly LB you will get an empy eventually.

I wonder why pple call u elitest ?

[Ragmar]

I'm not the one complaining about dyna or relics or trying to get the game changed if i was you could acully use that point.

Either way you proved your self wrong apparently it's easier to make gil than to do abyssea meaning there some type on challenge even if it's just a time sink (which most mmos are)





I wonder why pple call u elitest ?

I'm not asking for changes to current content either. Reading is hard. I would like ADDITIONAL content. Everything currently in game would still be there I would just like to see NEW options to complete the same content under more difficult settings with rewards reflective of the higher difficulty. How does the fact that I can make the gil to buy +2 items with less time than I can farm the same items make abyssea challenging? Thats the point. I dont assume you found dynamis too difficult. I imagine you saw that you could make more gil per day to buy currency than you could farm in the same time? I have a limited play time of a couple hours per day mon-fri and weekends are hit and miss. Somedays I can spend hours others none at all. I can choose to farm a few +2 items in that time frame or I could farm 10x the amount needed to buy them in the same time frame. This really isnt hard to understand I shouldnt have to spell it out.

As far as calling someone out for coming into my thread and shiting it up with personal issues, I dont really consider that elitest.

[Rezeak]

As far as i'm concerned the way FFXI is awesome.

1 or 2 pieces of hard content which periodically gets made easier and more hard content is added which means newer more casual players can keep up with the better players.

Honestly FFXI is as hard as you make it you can relax and do content 2-3 month after release using the wiki and such or you could be trying to do content on release which is a challenge and is tough.

Either way i love abyssea cause it's a tool that people use to get a decent level fast, so many members in my ls inc me have used it to lvl jobs fast so we can do new content, Remember before in 75 days you need x job to do y so u spend 3 months lvling and gearing 1 job to be told it's been nerfed.

my only issue w/ FFXI is lack of content and that SMN needs a buff badly :( but that's why i have other games.

Off topic : i solo farmed 90% of my relics since it only takes like 90 dyna runs to make a relic so 3 months on dyna = relic as for weekends i still pull in 120-180 in on weekends and 150-220 on weekdays and i know others that do better.

[Ragmar]

As far as i'm concerned the way FFXI is awesome.

1 or 2 pieces of hard content which periodically gets made easier and more hard content is added which means newer more casual players can keep up with the better players.

Honestly FFXI is as hard as you make it you can relax and do content 2-3 month after release using the wiki and such or you could be trying to do content on release which is a challenge and is tough.

Either way i love abyssea cause it's a tool that people use to get a decent level fast, so many members in my ls inc me have used it to lvl jobs fast so we can do new content, Remember before in 75 days you need x job to do y so u spend 3 months lvling and gearing 1 job to be told it's been nerfed.

my only issue w/ FFXI is lack of content and that SMN needs a buff badly :( but that's why i have other games.

Off topic : i solo farmed 90% of my relics since it only takes like 90 dyna runs to make a relic so 3 months on dyna = relic as for weekends i still pull in 120-180 in on weekends and 150-220 on weekdays and i know others that do better.

I dont have any issues with having different levels of content, its actually what Im asking for. Id just like to see content designed with the ability to choose a difficulty level and rewards reflective of it. As far as farming 90% of your relic's thats 6 months 2 hours a day everyday, minimum for 2 items. Id rather make enough gil to buy more currency in the same 2 hours a day for 6 months but thats just a preference thing. Same with buying +2 items sure I could find mobs I could solo and farm them but it would take longer than farming the gil to buy them. Its a matter of time not difficulty either way.

[Luvbunny]

OMG you dual box and still havn't completed an empy LOL. /comfort. I guarentee I spend less time in abyssea than you lol.

Awww poor snowflakes, did I crushed your fragile egos and destroyed your precious feelings over a few words? Because I have other stuffs to do in the game other than abyssea 24/7 and I don't see magian trial weapons as a fun things to do, or some sort of e-peen achievements to parade around thinking you are so very special snow flakes. And because I like options, not obligations to get this and that. Whatever rock your boats mr hypocrite :) And FYI I have tons of level 99 jobs spread over 4 characters, that's what I have been doing. And full voidwatch progress on most of my characters and those gears you probably would not have. As for all the neo crap content, have fun doing them - I think they are created just for you.

[Ragmar]

Also after level sync exping was stupid easy even at 75 cap. Some people just liked to complain because they couldnt simply raise their job level in their MH. You only needed the WHM RDM tank 3 DD party set up if you were fighting incredibly tough's. If you couldnt find the perfect jobs you could always go fight toughs or OMG pets for exp it just wasnt fast enough for some people. Other people just had such bad reputations as being terrible they couldnt get an invite.

TBH with abyssea the way it is there is no reason a player shouldnt start with all jobs 99. There would be no negative effect to gameplay that abyssea hasnt already promoted. I think it might actually be better as players wouldnt become used to afking/leeching so much at the start of their FFXI experience. Really think about it they would just start at 99 in maybe 5/5 perle/teal/aurore or some other starter gear set and a generic base weapon. They could begin the game by skilling up their weapons and magic actually playing the job since you dont get skill ups sitting afk to the side of an alliance of others fighting. Hell even abyssea lovers say you only really learn your job at 99 anyways! Add dom ops to all zones so they can farm their +1's while skilling up. Then when they want to begin to experience other content they begin to farm atma's, abysite's and +2 items off NMs. Sounds better than the current system to me. Also whats with everyone expecting to have the same things others get. I will never have 20 relics/empys/mythics like some. I'm totally fine with that.

[Ragmar]

Awww poor snowflakes, did I crushed your fragile egos and destroyed your precious feelings over a few words? Because I have other stuffs to do in the game other than abyssea 24/7 and I don't see magian trial weapons as a fun things to do, or some sort of e-peen achievements to parade around thinking you are so very special snow flakes. And because I like options, not obligations to get this and that. Whatever rock your boats mr hypocrite :) And FYI I have tons of level 99 jobs spread over 4 characters, that's what I have been doing. And full voidwatch progress on most of my characters and those gears you probably would not have. As for all the neo crap content, have fun doing them - I think they are created just for you.

4 characters no emps gotcha. AH.com profile shows very limited VW access, assume you update it from time to time if you bother to add any of your clears I assume you add all of them. I'll guarentee I have more VW gear than you which only says I either did it more or got lucky anyways since it has nothing to do with skill. But if you're not doing Abyssea, Dyna, Neo-events, Legion and only limited VW then yup that leaves lvl 75 content n'uff said. You arent hurting my feelings cupcake.

[Ragmar]

Also I was lucky in VW I have 80% or more of all drops gear/weapons/scrolls. That's right lucky because VW isnt about skill its about rolling dice.

[Sarick]

Also I was lucky in VW I have 80% or more of all drops gear/weapons/scrolls. That's right lucky because VW isnt about skill its about rolling dice.

Ragmar there are good and bad players. Let's try and explain something about good and bad players..

It takes several things to make a good player..

1. They have a good personality.
2. They work well as a team player.
3. They are skilled and willing to learn.
4. They have free time to invest in a game.
5. They have good gear because of the effort they put into the game.

These are what makes a good player. If one of them is a weak link like a chain it'll break at that link. You sir seem to think that you're an elite player (hears song in head) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON-w2WNxeqE) This contradicts everything you've been promoting because someone who's good isn't conceited like this. A good elite player doesn't need to say they're good. Why?, others will do it for them. If you run around calling people gimp or try to place yourself above others then the chain link breaks at #1. It then trickles down to #2 and then falls apart beyond #3 as anti-social behavior.

I can understand why you would pay for help because from the attitude in this topic it must be pretty hard getting good friends. They need to meet elite standards for your money. It all comes down to a rant over getting better items/events so you can be Mr. Cool. Sorry there partner but, if you look at the number one player across the servers on FFXIAH.com (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Asura/Jaywurm) people are saying he's sweet cool and awesome.

This is what you should strive for not the pixel gear so you can look down on people who you call GIMPS.

[Ragmar]

Ragmar there are good and bad players. Let's try and explain something about good and bad players..

It takes several things to make a good player..

1. They have a good personality.
2. They work well as a team player.
3. They are skilled and willing to learn.
4. They have free time to invest in a game.
5. They have good gear because of the effort they put into the game.

These are what makes a good player. If one of them is a weak link like a chain it'll break at that link. You sir seem to think that you're an elite player (hears song in head) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON-w2WNxeqE) This contradicts everything you've been promoting because someone who's good isn't conceited like this. A good elite player doesn't need to say they're good. Why?, others will do it for them. If you run around calling people gimp or try to place yourself above others then the chain link breaks at #1. It then trickles down to #2 and then falls apart beyond #3 as anti-social behavior.

I can understand why you would pay for help because from the attitude in this topic it must be pretty hard getting good friends. They need to meet elite standards for your money. It all comes down to a rant over getting better items/events so you can be Mr. Cool. Sorry there partner but, if you look at the number one player across the servers on FFXIAH.com (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Asura/Jaywurm) people are saying he's sweet cool and awesome.

This is what you should strive for not the pixel gear so you can look down on people who you call GIMPS.

LOL I left the most capable LS on my server which I co-created from two low man groups, that over the course of a year completed everything before turning into a giant epeen measuring contest. I left because I dont find that fun and to do low man content with 3 people I've been playing with for 7+ years of which only one even gear swaps. What makes someone a good player is not that they send you /t's in game with smiley faces. Some of the best players on Phoenix are total dicks. People kiss peoples asses when they think they might get something out of it. You may require that you like anyone you play with but I don't. Haters gonna hate. I've never met a nice person with bad gear and made any kind of negative remark about them. When they decide to act like asses however I'm absolutely going to call them out. Your #5 outright says if you dont have good gear you cant be a good player. Atleast I base my definition of gimp on ability/knowledge and not gear.

It takes very little to make a good player.
1. Knowing what you dont know.
2. Following directions of those who do know.
3. Using the best gear available to you to be as effective as possible.
4. Actively trying to improve both gear and ability to benefit those you play with.

[Luvbunny]

4 characters no emps gotcha. AH.com profile shows very limited VW access, assume you update it from time to time if you bother to add any of your clears I assume you add all of them. I'll guarentee I have more VW gear than you which only says I either did it more or got lucky anyways since it has nothing to do with skill. But if you're not doing Abyssea, Dyna, Neo-events, Legion and only limited VW then yup that leaves lvl 75 content n'uff said. You arent hurting my feelings cupcake.

Well muffins, seems like you take great pride at your pixels character lol. I could not give a rat ass about "being a good players" by your definition on a game that is nothing but pure mindless entertainment. Do you seriously think I would take time putting info on FFXIAH.com? But you certainly do put a lot of works on being Mr Snowflakes Elite I am so better than everyone else lol. Go back put some ointment on that butthurt ego :)

[Ragmar]

The only people I call gimps are those who lack skill and or wear bad gear when easier to obtain gear is better.

[Ragmar]

Well muffins, seems like you take great pride at your pixels character lol. I could not give a rat ass about "being a good players" by your definition on a game that is nothing but pure mindless entertainment. Do you seriously think I would take time putting info on FFXIAH.com? But you certainly do put a lot of works on being Mr Snowflakes Elite I am so better than everyone else lol. Go back put some ointment on that butthurt ego :)

Actually yes you did go into the VW section and list your clears so I assumed it was up to date. I'm not butthurt but its flattering you keep showing up in my threads and responding to my posts ... got me a stalker. Whysomad?

[Luvbunny]

It takes several things to make a good player..

1. They have a good personality.
2. They work well as a team player.
3. They are skilled and willing to learn.
4. They have free time to invest in a game.
5. They have good gear because of the effort they put into the game.


Thanks for putting it into perspective in the order that is most important, totally agree with this!! GEARS should be the least important thing in the game, granted you dont show up at 99 wearing level 1 gears, but decent comparable gears are good enough since not everyone thing "gearing" is everything. Good personality, team player and willingness to learn are way more valuable than "elite players with their uber gears with nasty attitude".

Good thing SE is smart enough to introduce brew and displacer to level the playing fields on Abyssea and Voidwatch - so that even average joes and janes can have a chance at experiencing most of the popular activities in the game without feeling inadequate. As for the rest of accomplishment freaks, they can have their fun at Neo Crapfest and Legion, until SE decide to open the "elite" gate to the masses :)

[Ragmar]

Thanks for putting it into perspective in the order that is most important, totally agree with this!! GEARS should be the least important thing in the game, granted you dont show up at 99 wearing level 1 gears, but decent comparable gears are good enough since not everyone thing "gearing" is everything. Good personality, team player and willingness to learn are way more valuable than "elite players with their uber gears with nasty attitude".

Good thing SE is smart enough to introduce brew and displacer to level the playing fields on Abyssea and Voidwatch - so that even average joes and janes can have a chance at experiencing most of the popular activities in the game without feeling inadequate. As for the rest of accomplishment freaks, they can have their fun at Neo Crapfest and Legion, until SE decide to open the "elite" gate to the masses :)

Average players can without those items only terribad players require them tbh. No wonder you've taken all this so personally.

[Ragmar]

Thanks for putting it into perspective in the order that is most important, totally agree with this!! GEARS should be the least important thing in the game, granted you dont show up at 99 wearing level 1 gears, but decent comparable gears are good enough since not everyone thing "gearing" is everything. Good personality, team player and willingness to learn are way more valuable than "elite players with their uber gears with nasty attitude".

Good thing SE is smart enough to introduce brew and displacer to level the playing fields on Abyssea and Voidwatch - so that even average joes and janes can have a chance at experiencing most of the popular activities in the game without feeling inadequate. As for the rest of accomplishment freaks, they can have their fun at Neo Crapfest and Legion, until SE decide to open the "elite" gate to the masses :)

It's a shame you take FFXI so seriously that you feel inadequate that others can obtain gear and clear content you cannot. You should take a step back and enjoy the milestones you and your friends set out meet rather than expecting the game to be dumbed down. You really shouldnt be so envious of what others have or have done.

[Sarick]

LOL I left the most capable LS on my server which I co-created from two low man groups, that over the course of a year completed everything before turning into a giant epeen measuring contest. I left because I dont find that fun and to do low man content with 3 people I've been playing with for 7+ years of which only one even gear swaps. What makes someone a good player is not that they send you /t's in game with smiley faces. Some of the best players on Phoenix are total dicks. People kiss peoples asses when they think they might get something out of it. You may require that you like anyone you play with but I don't. Haters gonna hate. I've never met a nice person with bad gear and made any kind of negative remark about them. When they decide to act like asses however I'm absolutely going to call them out. Your #5 outright says if you dont have good gear you cant be a good player. Atleast I base my definition of gimp on ability/knowledge and not gear.

It takes very little to make a good player.
1. Knowing what you dont know.
2. Following directions of those who do know.
3. Using the best gear available to you to be as effective as possible.
4. Actively trying to improve both gear and ability to benefit those you play with.

First off.

The list I wrote is in order of authority. This means that the first rule is equal to all the guidelines below it. In the case of #5 it would only count as -1 point where as the #1 guideline would count as a -5. The guidelines are linked like a chain. You start at the top and work your way down. You look at it this way there are some circumstances that are beyond the players control. They can still be a better player if they meet #1-#3 and still fail #4-#5..

You left out personality completely in your list and went straight for "this game is serious busyness." Do you get up every morning and load up FFXIAH to measure the FFXI market or something. This is a game, people play to have fun taskmaster sargent bill. You also stated some of the best players are dicks. There is a deep deep deep no no here. Anyone who is a jerk isn't a good MMO player. A jerk is a jerk even if they can do their job they do so at the expense of others. If your idea of a good player is someone who fails at guideline #1 then you sir have a very very jaded outlook on the use of the term good. You'd never hear someone say She's a good jerk, or that guy is an awesome cool dickhead.

This is the same when you rate a player on an MMO, they can have the best gear, be good at their job, have all the free time to master the game but... If they act like know it all jerks and ruin it for others they aren't a good players.

BTW: Your scale is missing the social aspect, this is an mmorpg meant to maintain a community.

[Arcon]

BTW: Your scale is missing the social aspect, this is an mmorpg meant to maintain a community.

What community? The entire server, or a group of close friends? Because it's the first, then yes, you're right on. If it's the latter, people can be dicks as much as they want, that's why elitist anti-social linkshells exist who put themselves over everyone else and have no issues ruining everyone else's fun. Your definition of "good" included "morally good" while Ragmar's was just "technically good". Unless you agree on which definition you want to follow, you're gonna be talking about different things and just keep missing each others' points.

Your assumption that he's elitist for wanting to buy items and that he lacks friends because of it is also completely off-base. I can very much relate to what he's doing, for pretty much the reasons he already mentioned. It sucks having to waste your friends' time asking for help when you can get it done another way. And money really is very easy to come by if you know how to farm it and are able to. Some people (including me) don't feel comfortable asking others for help and that's why we don't do it. It has nothing to do with being friend-less (which is a pretty childish accusation on your part). I may as well call you an anti-social basement dweller for buying a Wiglen Gorget off the AH when it's a common drop from an easy NM if you had the friends to go out and kill it.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to talk about the OP anyway. This thread is full of assumptions about him and his personality. Who cares? Why do you feel the need to bash him in order to disagree with his idea? Just say no and be done with it. I feel he presented good arguments (before the flame war started). You can counter them if you like (FrankReynolds did a good job already, if you're late to the party check out his posts), but don't bring stuff like "we can't take you seriously because you buy things".

[FrankReynolds]

The more I think about it, the more I like this idea:

How about an event somewhat like VW or maybe like magian trials (or both).

First make a set of generally crappy gear, maybe like hecatomb. You know, something where it has like slow +5 on every piece.

Then make it so that the only way to get the +1 version of the new drops is by wearing the crappy hecatomb -1 for the entire fight.

Make it so that the more people you have decked out in crappy gear, the better the odds of a drop or the more points received.

Add other drops to the event that are unaffected by the crappy gear system.

Make it so that the crappy gear also drops from this system.

I'm sure there's about a million holes in that idea, but it's start.

[Ragmar]

The more I think about it, the more I like this idea:

How about an event somewhat like VW or maybe like magian trials (or both).

First make a set of generally crappy gear, maybe like hecatomb. You know, something where it has like slow +5 on every piece.

Then make it so that the only way to get the +1 version of the new drops is by wearing the crappy hecatomb -1 for the entire fight.

Make it so that the more people you have decked out in crappy gear, the better the odds of a drop or the more points received.

Add other drops to the event that are unaffected by the crappy gear system.

Make it so that the crappy gear also drops from this system.

I'm sure there's about a million holes in that idea, but it's start.

Heca isnt crappy its just always only had one use WS. Augmented heca +1 is still in some of the optimal gear sets. That aside yeah sure make the alliance start out gimp (sorta like salvage) force em to full time the gear and upon beating the event it removes a level of restrictions wash rinse repeat coupld be fun. Just as long as its not all about proc/temps or PD/Embrava/Zerg it'd be a step in the right direction. I'd like to see the fights get harder after each clear and as gear became less restricted. Could be fun I'd try it.

[Sarick]

...


It's a shame I take FFXI so seriously that I feel inadequate enough that I want to obtain gear and clear content others cannot. I should take a step back and enjoy the game rather than expecting it to be hardcore for everyone.

This is a reversed fixed message.

[Sarick]

The more I think about it, the more I like this idea:

How about an event somewhat like VW or maybe like magian trials (or both).

First make a set of generally crappy gear, maybe like hecatomb. You know, something where it has like slow +5 on every piece.

Then make it so that the only way to get the +1 version of the new drops is by wearing the crappy hecatomb -1 for the entire fight.

Make it so that the more people you have decked out in crappy gear, the better the odds of a drop or the more points received.

Add other drops to the event that are unaffected by the crappy gear system.

Make it so that the crappy gear also drops from this system.

I'm sure there's about a million holes in that idea, but it's start.

Best way,

1. Extreme High Quality +2 remove enemy weaknesses, add ten times the drop rate one heavy metal sack 100% on tier 4+ mobs only.

2. Advanced High Quality have the weaknesses 20% success rate and quadruple the drop rate one 100% on a heavy metal plate on tier 4+ enemies only.

3. Normal Quality Nothing here same normal drop rate.

4. Too Weak, Low Quality. All weaknesses trigger 100% and last three times as long. No rewards other then win and maybe parcepts and atmasites.

I bet most players would opt. for the NQ version. Let the people who are after wins select too weak versions.

THERE EVERYONE HAS A CHANCE and the ELITES can be happy because they can get their shinny EMP's to 95 faster while feeling good about it.

[Luvbunny]

It's a shame you take FFXI so seriously that you feel inadequate that others can obtain gear and clear content you cannot. You should take a step back and enjoy the milestones you and your friends set out meet rather than expecting the game to be dumbed down. You really shouldnt be so envious of what others have or have done.

Aww you should not have....spending some time formulating your feeble minded attempt at writing a reply. Good try though Princess Snowflake. Man, those words must seriously wounded your precious fragile egos lol, you actually able to wrote childish responds. Now go back prancing around in Port Jeuno and yelling about how great your accomplishments at killing xyz? Doesn't seem you enjoy the loss of not being able to feel "entitled" - now even the lowliest newbies can get a shot obtaining rather nice gears by having beginner's luck at Voidwatch.

[Ragmar]

Aww you should not have....spending some time formulating your feeble minded attempt at writing a reply. Good try though Princess Snowflake. Man, those words must seriously wounded your precious fragile egos lol, you actually able to wrote childish responds. Now go back prancing around in Port Jeuno and yelling about how great your accomplishments at killing xyz? Doesn't seem you enjoy the loss of not being able to feel "entitled" - now even the lowliest newbies can get a shot obtaining rather nice gears by having beginner's luck at Voidwatch.

It's ok you've already admitted it isnt about elitests lording gear over you but about your own envy and feelings of inadequecy because others can do what you cannot. With how easy FFXI is, the fact that you cannot says everything anyone would ever need to know about you.

[Ragmar]

This is a reversed fixed message.

Except I'm not asking for it to be hardcore for everyone I'm asking for SE to allow the player to select a difficulty starting with very easy content that everyone should be able to complete.

[FrankReynolds]

It's ok you've already admitted it isnt about elitests lording gear over you but about your own envy and feelings of inadequecy because others can do what you cannot. With how easy FFXI is, the fact that you cannot says everything anyone would ever need to know about you.

You know your arguing about how bad she is and she's just smiling back at the screen right now.

You sound silly talking about the game being too easy because of abyssea when you haven't gotten all your abyssea gear. You really have no room to talk.

[Sarick]

Except I'm not asking for it to be hardcore for everyone I'm asking for SE to allow the player to select a difficulty starting with very easy content that everyone should be able to complete.


And you see that I created a post with an example how it could be done. You seem like a smart guy, you say listen to people who know what they're doing. Well, I think with some genius you can come up with a solution. Instead of ranting about how bad things are and how you want options give solutions that don't cause more imbalance.

You want harder fights that give better items that make you LEET with stuff casuals CAN'T get, no that's not how it to do it. If you're going to make something hardcore make it enhance the drop rates with rewards everyone can already get.

The solution is when it's made worth while for hardcore they get the same stuff just better quantity or drop rates. This is how the NEO dynamis was setup.

If you agree with the tier rewards/difficulty system and aren't asking for special gear then I think a few people would stand up and say OK. The way you make it sound is players who play normal content should be excluded from special elite only gear. This is why people are against you.

Things can be balanced by making items drop better on high quality versions without excluding normal quality versions access to these items. If you agree with this and, drop the whole I want a special Bucky beaver badge accessory because "I'm awesome sauce" a lot of people would probably support you.

[Arcon]

You want harder fights that give better items that make you LEET with stuff casuals CAN'T get, no that's not how it to do it. If you're going to make something hardcore make it enhance the drop rates with rewards everyone can already get.

The solution is when it's made worth while for hardcore they get the same stuff just better quantity or drop rates. This is how the NEO dynamis was setup.

If you agree with the tier rewards/difficulty system and aren't asking for special gear then I think a few people would stand up and say OK. The way you make it sound is players who play normal content should be excluded from special elite only gear. This is why people are against you.

Why? Why would people object to that. I honestly do not understand. Isn't it the entire purpose of games to be rewarded appropriately to how you perform? The better you are, the better the rewards should be. If someone is playing casually, and plays this game more for a social or lore-related aspect, they wouldn't care about the best of gear anyway.

This is not in any way, shape or form about exclusion or feeling superior. Everyone should be given the chance to obtain these items. But they should be required to play well for it.

I honestly cannot comprehend how anyone would complain that people who aren't skilled in something should be rewarded the same as people who are. That sounds completely illogical to me.

[Ragmar]

And you see that I created a post with an example how it could be done. You seem like a smart guy, you say listen to people who know what they're doing. Well, I think with some genius you can come up with a solution. Instead of ranting about how bad things are and how you want options give solutions that don't cause more imbalance.

You want harder fights that give better items that make you LEET with stuff casuals CAN'T get, no that's not how it to do it. If you're going to make something hardcore make it enhance the drop rates with rewards everyone can already get.

The solution is when it's made worth while for hardcore they get the same stuff just better quantity or drop rates. This is how the NEO dynamis was setup.

If you agree with the tier rewards/difficulty system and aren't asking for special gear then I think a few people would stand up and say OK. The way you make it sound is players who play normal content should be excluded from special elite only gear. This is why people are against you.

Things can be balanced by making items drop better on high quality versions without excluding normal quality versions access to these items.

I specifically said gear with like 1 stat more just to give people a reason to complete the content on harder settings. Thats not game breaking and certainly shouldnt have people who may lack the skills to complete the content on the hardest settings much to complain about. The people who've posted against in this thread feel like they should have the same gear as anyone else no matter what even if they don't do the same content which I disagree with. I believe you should have to do the content to aquire the gear. I've never asked for an event only the top 5% of the player base could complete with rewards no one else would ever see.

[FrankReynolds]

Why? Why would people object to that. I honestly do not understand. Isn't it the entire purpose of games to be rewarded appropriately to how you perform? The better you are, the better the rewards should be. If someone is playing casually, and plays this game more for a social or lore-related aspect, they wouldn't care about the best of gear anyway.

This is not in any way, shape or form about exclusion or feeling superior. Everyone should be given the chance to obtain these items. But they should be required to play well for it.

I honestly cannot comprehend how anyone would complain that people who aren't skilled in something should be rewarded the same as people who are. That sounds completely illogical to me.

He gave a good example.

You go in and get 300 currency in dynamis. Joey the pink guy gets 100 currency. How is that rewarding joey the same as you? Can he buy his next relic for 1/3 what you pay?


I believe you should have to do the content to aquire the gear. I've never asked for an event only the top 5% of the player base could complete with rewards no one else would ever see.

You should stop buying Abyssea items then.

[Ragmar]

No one should use food they didn't make by your logic.

[Sarick]

He gave a good example.

You go in and get 300 currency in dynamis. Joey the pink guy gets 100 currency. How is that rewarding joey the same as you? Can he buy his next relic for 1/3 what you pay?

Exactly, this is the reward you get for higher difficulty not better gear types but faster upgrades. These upgrades are already to much for the average players who don't have the skill sets to compete so whats illogical about it?

You can take the hardcore path and get your stuff before the players who have to work longer. In the end everyone wins at their own skill level and pace.

I'm confused here because Arcons post poses illogical more like logic isn't logical. To fully understand something he needs to see it in it's full perspective.


I specifically said gear with like 1 stat more just to give people a reason to complete the content on harder settings. Thats not game breaking and certainly shouldnt have people who may lack the skills to complete the content on the hardest settings much to complain about. The people who've posted against in this thread feel like they should have the same gear as anyone else no matter what even if they don't do the same content which I disagree with. I believe you should have to do the content to aquire the gear. I've never asked for an event only the top 5% of the player base could complete with rewards no one else would ever see.

This is why people are against your proposal. It can and will be used to belittle others, NO SPECIAL GEAR IS NEEDED TO MAKE IT WORTH WHILE. :o

[Ragmar]

Exactly, this is the reward you get for higher difficulty not better gear types but faster upgrades. These upgrades are already to much for the average players who don't have the skill sets to compete so whats illogical about it?

You can take the hardcore path and get your stuff before the players who have to work longer. In the end everyone wins at their own skill level and pace.

I'm confused here because Arcons post poses illogical more like logic isn't logical. To fully understand something he needs to see it in it's full perspective.



This is why people are against your proposal. It can and will be used to belittle others, NO SPECIAL GEAR IS NEEDED TO MAKE IT WORTH WHILE. :o

Everything in this game can be used to belittle someone in the same way as gear so SE should remove everything or give everyone everything so everyone has exactly the same thing as everyone else. If not someone might belittle someone therefore its wrong and bad and must be eliminated. I swear some people wont be happy til they add the test server moogle you can get any item from to the main game. SE should start all new characters with everything so there is never a difference between A player and B player. All quests, missions everything complete. Someone might belittle you because you havn't done windy nation missions yet therefore they must be eliminated. We must all be exactly the same.

I feel sorry for those who allow themselves to be belittled by others for not having the absolute best gear. It's sad that they need so much validation from a video game ... I enjoy the gear Ive aquired but damned if im going to feel less about myself because I dont have X piece of gear.

[Sarick]

I swear some people wont be happy til they add the test server moogle you can get any item from to the main game. SE should start all new characters with everything so there is never a difference between A player and B player. All quests, missions everything complete. Someone might belittle you because you havn't done windy nation missions yet therefore they must be eliminated. We must all be exactly the same.

I feel sorry for those who allow themselves to be belittled by others for not having the absolute best gear. It's sad that they need so much validation from a video game ... I enjoy the gear Ive aquired but damned if im going to feel less about myself because I dont have X piece of gear.


Don't use this passive aggressive stance on me. I know all to well you want these rewards purely to increase your epen's. IT has nothing to do with making it more rewarding and all about self gratification from insecurity or selfish greed. You may try to say its otherwise but seriously, you've done a poor job at hiding the agenda behind your request.

I gave an example that suited everyone. It rewards hardcore and casuals equally at a different rate. The only thing you've promoted is giving the higher skilled players stuff to make everyone less skilled look like newbies. The way you promote rewards is different then me. You think players who aren't as skilled shouldn't be capable of getting equipment equal to you even if it requires a very slow tedious path. This is an elitist jerk attitude that proves just how broken things would be if you got your wish.

It's not about the gear breaking balance it's about the gear disrupting the community. After all if we don't have that awesome HQ gear that the upper 5% have we're not worthy by your standards.

[FrankReynolds]

No one (who says you shouldn't have food that you didn't make yourself) should use food they didn't make by your logic.

There ya go.

I don't mind buying gear. I mind you saying that people who haven't done the content can't have the gear, since you clearly don't do the content. This is what is called a Hypocrite. You say one thing and do another. Your arguments are invalid.



I feel sorry for those who allow themselves to be belittled by others for not having the absolute best gear. It's sad that they need so much validation from a video game ... I enjoy the gear Ive aquired but damned if im going to feel less about myself because I dont have X piece of gear.

And yet you demand that they add a special piece of gear just for you.

[Luvbunny]

It's ok you've already admitted it isnt about elitests lording gear over you but about your own envy and feelings of inadequecy because others can do what you cannot. With how easy FFXI is, the fact that you cannot says everything anyone would ever need to know about you.

Say what? did the Lamia just cut off your tongue? what are you yammering about? everything anyone anybody even understand? All I am reading here is how you want a SPECIAL content made just for you, so you can FEEL special for having beaten that extra special content and able to wear that badge of honor to bolsters your already ginormous ego - and stroke it even bigger enable you to tower over other players alike. Sorry to cut off your e-peen, glad SE decided to go to the commercial route and defang most of the special contents by opening the gate for everyone to enjoy after certain period of time has expired. Now go back sulking in your corner :)

[Ragmar]

There ya go.

I don't mind buying gear. I mind you saying that people who haven't done the content can't have the gear, since you clearly don't do the content. This is what is called a Hypocrite. You say one thing and do another. Your arguments are invalid.



And yet you demand that they add a special piece of gear just for you.

I still have to be there in zone doing the content. I wouldnt be doing lesser challenging content asking for the same reward. The point of a merc is they are doing the leg work building the pops and killing the NMs so I dont have to drag my buddies along. This is much different than someone fighting one mob but wanting the drops off a more challenging mob. If you want the Neo Odin drops you have to be there and kill it. You shouldnt get that gear from old Odin.

[Ragmar]

Say what? did the Lamia just cut off your tongue? what are you yammering about? everything anyone anybody even understand? All I am reading here is how you want a SPECIAL content made just for you, so you can FEEL special for having beaten that extra special content and able to wear that badge of honor to bolsters your already ginormous ego - and stroke it even bigger enable you to tower over other players alike. Sorry to cut off your e-peen, glad SE decided to go to the commercial route and defang most of the special contents by opening the gate for everyone to enjoy after certain period of time has expired. Now go back sulking in your corner :)

QQ more you already admitted this has nothing to do with others lording gear over you but your feelings of envy and inadequacy over not being able to complete content or have what someone else has.

[Ragmar]

Don't use this passive aggressive stance on me. I know all to well you want these rewards purely to increase your epen's. IT has nothing to do with making it more rewarding and all about self gratification from insecurity or selfish greed. You may try to say its otherwise but seriously, you've done a poor job at hiding the agenda behind your request.

I gave an example that suited everyone. It rewards hardcore and casuals equally at a different rate. The only thing you've promoted is giving the higher skilled players stuff to make everyone less skilled look like newbies. The way you promote rewards is different then me. You think players who aren't as skilled shouldn't be capable of getting equipment equal to you even if it requires a very slow tedious path. This is an elitist jerk attitude that proves just how broken things would be if you got your wish.

It's not about the gear breaking balance it's about the gear disrupting the community. After all if we don't have that awesome HQ gear that the upper 5% have we're not worthy by your standards.

So you and your kind can use the "you only want gear others cant have to feel better about yourself" approach but I cant point out its actually you who values the gear more than the person who actually has it ... K. You dont know me at all lol never once have you ever had an interaction with me previous to this thread in your entire life yet you insist I only want gear better than others so I can feel good about myself regardless of how many times I prove thats nothing even close to the case. YOU are the one wanting to decide who has what gear by wanting everyone to have exactly all the same gear because god forbid anyone have something you dont. YOU are the one placing far more emphasis on others gear than I am. YOU are the one so interested in if you measure up to someone elses gear not me.

[Luvbunny]

QQ more you already admitted this has nothing to do with others lording gear over you but your feelings of envy and inadequacy over not being able to complete content or have what someone else has.

You know the difference between pre-abyssea and post-abyssea contents? In the pre-abyssea EVERY SINGLE THING takes much longer to complete.... Now the game is snappier, faster pace, and much more enjoyable. No one has to do every single contents to feel good about themselves, but all those contents are accessible, and people actually have OPTIONS to which gears/weapon/contents they want to do, and these gears/weapons are very comparable so that actual working living breathing person could also have a chance to get their chosen gears/weapon without having to go through many hoops to get things done. That is called accessibility - which pretty much killed the elitism in the game.

[Arcon]

He gave a good example.

You go in and get 300 currency in dynamis. Joey the pink guy gets 100 currency. How is that rewarding joey the same as you? Can he buy his next relic for 1/3 what you pay?

That's neither a good nor a bad example, it's an non-applicable example. It has nothing to do with what I requested.

His "solution" gives me no incentive to play well if time isn't an issue for me, which happens to be the case. I play this game casually, I don't want everything right away. I couldn't care less if I got a relic in two months or four months. I still get to have what the best player has with zero effort on my part, only I have to wait longer. It still requires zero skill, only dedication.

I want something that I can be proud of obtaining. None of what you or him said qualifies.

[Sarick]

So you and your kind can use the "you only want gear others cant have to feel better about yourself" approach but I cant point out its actually you who values the gear more than the person who actually has it ... K. You dont know me at all lol never once have you ever had an interaction with me previous to this thread in your entire life yet you insist I only want gear better than others so I can feel good about myself regardless of how many times I prove thats nothing even close to the case. YOU are the one wanting to decide who has what gear by wanting everyone to have exactly all the same gear because god forbid anyone have something you dont. YOU are the one placing far more emphasis on others gear than I am. YOU are the one so interested in if you measure up to someone elses gear not me.

I'm very happy with my +2 gear, what I hate is people LORDING over me and my kind about how they killed some NM and and they think they are the second coming of Christ. You sir are an ego freak and will/would use your special content to belittle others like "I'm better then you" not because it would/wouldn't make you a better player or person.

People here are bursting your little bubble by telling you it's a game it's supposed to be fun. You keep posting how people with less skill don't deserve the same content. Why do you really want special content?, it makes YOU feel special.

The NEO Nyzul proved just ho much people hate your concept. What did most of the people do who got that content? They had to cheat or use special setups to increase odds. Most of the community doesn't want this shit and it's a fact by the hate post on the community forums.

[Sarick]

QQ more you already admitted this has nothing to do with others lording gear over you but your feelings of envy and inadequacy over not being able to complete content or have what someone else has.

Like I said ego freak. If you get access to special gear you point fingers at players and demand they see you as a higher ranking player. You want to control people. Look at my gear there I know what I'm doing better then you LISTEN TO ME I'm the vet you're the newbie.

Back a few pages ago I made a post about what makes a good player. You took that bait and exposed your true nature right there when you proved you're a taskmaster bill. Basically, you think "I'm better then others" these gears just inflate your ego more.

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? Take a step back and look how many of these characteristics fit your need for special content? The Ability to Manipulate, Failure of Conformity to Social Norms, Impulsiveness, and/or Ego-Centric Behavior.

[Sarick]

That's neither a good nor a bad example, it's an non-applicable example. It has nothing to do with what I requested.

His "solution" gives me no incentive to play well if time isn't an issue for me, which happens to be the case. I play this game casually, I don't want everything right away. I couldn't care less if I got a relic in two months or four months. I still get to have what the best player has with zero effort on my part, only I have to wait longer. It still requires zero skill, only dedication.

I want something that I can be proud of obtaining. None of what you or him said qualifies.

If you want something you're proud of attaining then perhaps you should look into something of greater reward then pixels on a game. If you want a real reward invent something or do something that impacts the world for the greater good.

Requesting special gear in a game to inflate ones ego doesn't boarder well on the game or in real life. If one desires special treatment perhaps it's not the social norm that has a problem. After all, You should care more about the community balance if you want to feel good about yourself.

For the record dedication is just as good a recognition as doing something more efficient.

[Arcon]

If you want something you're proud of attaining then perhaps you should look into something of greater reward then pixels on a game. If you want a real reward invent something or do something that impacts the world for the greater good.

Perhaps if you want fun and entertainment you should consider getting laid instead of wasting away on these forums? That's basically what you just said to me. And if you think that's a valid argument you need to go back to your preschool class.

With this comment you've disqualified everything you've ever said on these forums, because merely by being here you've acknowledged you're wasting time that could be used to otherwise benefit society, hence you're stopping humanity's progress by posting this. What a douche!

There's several kinds of games. Those that offer quick and easy entertainment ("Mario Party"), those that require effort and dedication but offer a unique gaming experience ("Final Fantasy") and those that ask a person to improve constantly and reward a player's skill ("Ninja Gaiden"). I named a few games that are archetypical for the respective categories. Note that I meant the Final Fantasy series, not this part in particular. FFXI was special in that it spanned across some of those categories. In ye olden days FFXI was almost exclusively effort/dedication focused, with a little skill involved and almost no quick and easy entertainment. After Abyssea came out it made a drastic change away from its usual pattern and laid out almost exclusively in Mario Party sector. And the skill part it used to require for certain events (like JoL, Odin, Kirin, etc.) is what some people, including me, miss. That's why we suggest the things we do. Right now I'm not rewarded for playing FFXI. I mainly play it because of the LS people and because I like helping them out. I don't look forward to the actual "playing" anymore, except for Legion and Einherjar.

You telling everyone to focus on one kind of gameplay only and that we should be happy with it, and if we aren't we magically fail at real life suggests that you have the argumentative capacity of a three year old who cries if things don't go his way.


Requesting special gear in a game to inflate ones ego doesn't boarder well on the game or in real life. If one desires special treatment perhaps it's not the social norm that has a problem. After all, You should care more about the community balance if you want to feel good about yourself.

I only assume this was directed at me because you quoted me, because otherwise it makes absolutely no sense. I just told you that's precisely not what I care about. I don't care at all how others perceive me. I idle in a red subligar. And not an elite subligar either. I want this game to test my skills, nothing more. And nothing in the game currently does that.


For the record dedication is just as good a recognition as doing something more efficient.

How come? That makes absolutely zero sense. I've rarely met anyone so shallow.

[Sarick]

Perhaps if you want fun and entertainment you should consider getting laid instead of wasting away on these forums? That's basically what you just said to me. And if you think that's a valid argument you need to go back to your preschool class.

With this comment you've disqualified everything you've ever said on these forums, because merely by being here you've acknowledged you're wasting time that could be used to otherwise benefit society, hence you're stopping humanity's progress by posting this. What a douche!

How come? That makes absolutely zero sense. I've rarely met anyone so shallow.

Excuse yourself, I'm not the one banging my head on the wall making statements that I'm better or bored with the game. Did this somehow hurt the chances of inflating someones ego? Look at the likes on the original post and the 3rd post likes. This clearly shows that a large percentage of players reading disagree with those asking for special treatment. You can cut me down all you want but I'm seeing beyond the the delusions of grandger coming from your side of the field.

As for disqualifying me and my arguments I can say this.

I'm just perusing an equality interest and pointing out the flaws I'm seeing here. I'm not wasting time. The solutions I gave would benefit the community, hence you're stopping humanity's progress by posting your retorts. Who's the one being a douche? The one trying to move the games progress in the right direction or the player calling for special treatment?

If you can't handle this then it's not my problem I gave solutions but you still ask for more. Why don't you admit how shallow it is to want entitlement that does nothing more then help you mess yourself with inflated ego. If you can't have fun with the rewards you've been given because it doesn't make you feel special that isn't an issue with the game.


Requesting special gear in a game to inflate ones ego doesn't boarder well on the game or in real life. If one desires special treatment perhaps it's not the social norm that has a problem. After all, You should care more about the community balance if you want to feel good about yourself.

No this wasn't totally directed at you Arcon, my apologies, clearly you should realize by defending him you've mirrored his reasoning and overall agenda.

[FrankReynolds]

... A lot.

I just don't understand. Why would a person who just wants more challenge and a fitting reward for besting said challenge, want the reward for said challenge to be something (Stronger gear) that makes every future event less challenging?

Why not some piece of gear that is the same stats as the one the general public can obtain, but different color / shape, to show that you are a bad ass? Why does it have to make things easier for you (have higher stats / effects)? I mean if you truly care about the challenge, then having a different model to show your accomplishment should be fine right?

[Ragmar]

You can accuse others of only wanting to lord gear over you all day long. Fact is many times in this thread you have shown it's really about you placing value on gear that those in support aren't. The envy is thick and sad. No one once has said they want something others cant have. People supporting have mearly asked for content/rewards to be reflective of each other. This then turns into people calling them ego freaks and elitests because they fear they might not be able to complete said content and not get the rewards they place such a high value on. I'd like every relic/empy/mythic in the game but I will be lucky to finish 1-2 relics and maybe a total of 4-5 empys. Others will have much more and I'll tip my hat to them, I wont begin to seethe with anger and indignation.

[Komori]

Assuming anyone who disagrees and dislikes your idea is only jealous or angry is also not a valid argument. No one gets upset when others have better gear or weapons than them. It's when people with better weapons and gear feel like they are entitled to more than anyone else when we all pay the same subscription that generally makes people upset. And kudos to Arcon for trying to make a counter-argument against people playing a game for fun?

[FrankReynolds]

You can accuse others of only wanting to lord gear over you all day long. Fact is many times in this thread you have shown it's really about you placing value on gear that those in support aren't. The envy is thick and sad. No one once has said they want something others cant have. People supporting have mearly asked for content/rewards to be reflective of each other. This then turns into people calling them ego freaks and elitests because they fear they might not be able to complete said content and not get the rewards they place such a high value on. I'd like every relic/empy/mythic in the game but I will be lucky to finish 1-2 relics and maybe a total of 4-5 empys. Others will have much more and I'll tip my hat to them, I wont begin to seethe with anger and indignation.

So make beating events in hard mode give people shiny gear with bling on it and exact same stats then yeah? maybe when you beat Kirin in hard mode, you get an osode that is decked out in gold. Sounds fair. Don't come in here saying that you wan't the osode to have better stats though, cuz that will make the next event you do "too easy".

[Sarick]

And kudos to Arcon for trying to make a counter-argument against people playing a game for fun?

I don't get what you're saying here, but I still liked what you said. I think everyone should be allowed to have fun if it doesn't exclude people. I've seen too much content created that screwed over the casuals and the same amount that screwed over the hardcore. My solutions was always simple allow people who want higher difficultly and people who want the easier long term commitment to me rewarded equally at their own paces.

People can't have fun if something is to hard likewise, people can't have fun if it's to easy. Giving special rewards to one side doesn't make things more fun. The fun factor is knowing you've accomplished something at your level. If someone takes a slow path or a fast path if they come out even in the end it really shouldn't matter.

[Arcon]

Excuse yourself, I'm not the one banging my head on the wall making statements that I'm better or bored with the game.

No, you're the one banging your head on the wall making statements that your opinion is better than mine.


Did this somehow hurt the chances of inflating someones ego? Look at the likes on the original post and the 3rd post likes. This clearly shows that a large percentage of players reading disagree with those asking for special treatment. You can cut me down all you want but I'm seeing beyond the the delusions of grandger coming from your side of the field.

You see only what you want to see. This is not about personal opinions, nor is it about sides. I'm not on Ragmar's side, I approved of his idea. I have no idea of his reasons or motivations for them, I only have my own. You're the one who's trying to force this into a you vs. me debate.


As for disqualifying me and my arguments I can say this.

I'm just perusing an equality interest and pointing out the flaws I'm seeing here. I'm not wasting time. The solutions I gave would benefit the community, hence you're stopping humanity's progress by posting your retorts. Who's the one being a douche? The one trying to move the games progress in the right direction or the player calling for special treatment?

The one who thinks his opinion is the right one. You don't support the community, you support your own opinion. The fact that some people want this and you're against it already means you're not talking for "the community". Stop pretending you're a saint.


If you can't handle this then it's not my problem I gave solutions but you still ask for more.

You didn't give a solution, you said "you're wrong, I'm right, you're bad, I'm good, for no reason other than my own delusions". I'm not even paraphrasing (much).


Why don't you admit how shallow it is to want entitlement that does nothing more then help you mess yourself with inflated ego.

That's very shallow. That's still not what's going on. That's what you'd like it to be to validate your own opinion. If you admitted that there were real reasons for me wanting this you wouldn't be the good guy anymore but just a partypooper.


If you can't have fun with the rewards you've been given because it doesn't make you feel special that isn't an issue with the game.

I can't have fun with the rewards I've been given because I don't feel they reward me for anything. I made a Mandau the other day, the strongest weapon for THF there is. I felt nothing. It was a shallow effort. I never even did Dynamis for it other than to farm the base weapon, farm attestations and fragments.


No this wasn't totally directed at you Arcon, my apologies, clearly you should realize by defending him you've mirrored his reasoning and overall agenda.

Only I never defended him at all, ever. I don't know him, why would I care for him? I just agreed with his proposal.


I just don't understand. Why would a person who just wants more challenge and a fitting reward for besting said challenge, want the reward for said challenge to be something (Stronger gear) that makes every future event less challenging?

I specifically said that I don't care for that. I said it could as well be items of convenience like movement speed or inventory saver items. Just anything to remind me that it's actually worth trying to be good, because right now that is not in the game except for a select few events.


Why not some piece of gear that is the same stats as the one the general public can obtain, but different color / shape, to show that you are a bad ass? Why does it have to make things easier for you (have higher stats / effects)? I mean if you truly care about the challenge, then having a different model to show your accomplishment should be fine right?

See above. There's advantages that don't break the game or reduce the challenge. If there were no advantages to it at all it would just be show-off gear, and as I said, I don't particularly care for showing off, despite what people like to read into my words.


And kudos to Arcon for trying to make a counter-argument against people playing a game for fun?

No kudos to you for not recognizing that people have different ideas of fun. If I pay 13 bucks monthly for a game, I want it to offer me more than a simple card game could. Card games are fun. They support multiplayer, they're quick and easy and casual, require no lasting commitment. That's not what an RPG is to me, a MMORPG least of all. There are (literally) hundreds of better games to play if you want mere entertainment. FFXI is one of the worst games I can think of in that regard. This is a project to me. I play it to develop my character. And I play to excel at it. It has always been my main motivation. That is fun to me.

[Komori]

So you contradict yourself and think that your thirteen dollars is better than casuals because you want to make content that they can specifically not clear so that you can feel accomplished in a video game?

[Shoko]

Assuming anyone who disagrees and dislikes your idea is only jealous or angry is also not a valid argument. No one gets upset when others have better gear or weapons than them. It's when people with better weapons and gear feel like they are entitled to more than anyone else when we all pay the same subscription that generally makes people upset. And kudos to Arcon for trying to make a counter-argument against people playing a game for fun?

Much of your argument is pretty bad.

I think we all agree that no one cares what other people have (openly, at least). The problem lies in when people like you assume that other people with more items desire even more than what any one else has just because they want more. It's like you didn't even read Ragmar or Arcon's arguments correctly.

It was clear as day that Ragmar and Arcon simply want content that justifies having previous top of the line gear, and in turn having the best gear possible from that [new] event as a reward. What's the point of building all of these relics, emps, mythics, and Neo Nyzul gear if there's no challenging content to put them to use?

Everyone plays this game for fun, indeed. However, everyone's definition of "fun" that they draw from this game is different. Some people like the fact that current content brought everyone on the "same level" and playing field-- these are people, are yourself and a few other posters in the thread. Then there are people like Arcon and Ragmar who feel that current content is no longer challenging (key word), but also the fact that current content only rewards the majority casual players now (which it does).

I used to be a hardcore player in this game, so I loved how the content was back in the day. However, I also loved Abyssea content too, and how it brought many casual players up to the same level as the hardcore players. However now, after 3 years of abyssea and now voidwatch, I feel this game is way too easy mode as well, and desire much more challenging, new content. The argument about stripping yourself of cruor buffs for a challenge is pretty wack-- whenever someone says "challenge" in FFXI, they almost always mean a challenge that places 6~18 people vs a tough NM or structure of content.

[Arcon]

So you contradict yourself and think that your thirteen dollars is better than casuals because you want to make content that they can specifically not clear so that you can feel accomplished in a video game?

Wrong. First of all, I'm not putting my opinion ahead of yours. I'm just offering it to SE, telling them what I'd like to see in this game. Secondly I'm not saying casuals shouldn't get it. I'm a casual player myself. I'm saying people who don't improve shouldn't get it. Whether that means they're bad or they're lazy or not motivated, whatever. But yes, I do believe that not everything should be attainable by effort that amounts to fuck all. I honestly don't understand how people can want that.

[Sarick]

Looks like you blew your stack Accon. Even if you disagree what I've seen deserves attention. The community simply doesn't want it. Read his first and last paragraphs in the original post. Apparently, I partially agree with some of the stuff you've been defending. The entire entitlement issue is where special treatment is given and the attitude doesn't go over well.

It's obvious this FFXI Fixed will never fly with everyone. It'd cause more harm then good. The evidence has show this time and time again. Neo Nyzul. Look at CoP, I beat those missions at normal capped levels. Do I think I should get a +1 ring? I beat RDM back as my first level 70 camp should I have a special RDM hat that gives +3 refresh? No, I don't think so.

People hated the hard content (as stated by the developers themselves years go). The rant the original post showed hatred for the community as a whole who've been asking for easier ways to to things. I agree that both sides should have their own pace and levels of difficulty but, I stand firm that none of that gear should be statistically stronger.

On a final note Yes, I'm playing saint. When someone wants to revert back to a 2004 community and advertise destructive ideas I'm going to point out the devil.

[Shoko]

Looks like you blew your stack Accon. Even if you disagree what I've seen deserves attention. The community simply doesn't want it. Read his first and last paragraphs in the original post. Apparently, I partially agree with some of the stuff you've been defending. The entire entitlement issue is where special treatment is given and the attitude doesn't go over well.

It's obvious this FFXI Fixed will never fly with everyone. It'd cause more harm then good. The evidence has show this time and time again. Neo Nyzul. Look at CoP, I beat those missions at normal capped levels. Do I think I should get a +1 ring? I beat RDM back as my first level 70 camp should I have a special RDM hat that gives +3 refresh? No, I don't think so.

People hated the hard content (as stated by the developers themselves years go). The rant the original post showed hatred for the community as a whole who've been asking for easier ways to to things. I agree that both sides should have their own pace and levels of difficulty but, I stand firm that none of that gear should be statistically stronger.

On a final note Yes, I'm playing saint. When someone wants to revert back to a 2004 community and advertise destructive ideas I'm going to point out the devil.

A good majority of your posts are also pretty bad. You do not speak for the community as a whole, and should not. Just as well, people should not take your posts for what they are.

A good deal of people also loved the hard content, just as well as others who hated it. When you leave the realm of casual content and dive into hardcore content gear should and must be statistically stronger, as this is a typical MMO:

1) You play an MMO for strong gear, and obtain it.
2) You use strong gear to face a monster or [increasingly] difficult content.
3) You obtain stronger and better gear as your reward(s).

You should not play saint at any point in time. A real person playing saint would be able to take on both sides of an argument and with it, find common ground between the two. You are only loosely speaking for yourself.

[FrankReynolds]

1) You play an MMO for strong gear, and obtain it.
2) You use strong gear to face a monster or [increasingly] difficult content.
3) You obtain stronger and better gear as your reward(s).


Your missing a step:

4) After you have gotten to wear the best gear for a sufficient amount of time, the developer makes that gear available to everyone and you start back at step 2.

If you add something that average joes can't do, and add awesome gear to it, then the next new event has to be even harder to compensate for the new uber gear that the leet players will be wearing. Then when the leet get their Uber +2 gear from that event, the next event has to be even harder than the second one to compensate for the uber +2 stats. The fourth event harder than the third one. This goes on until you reach a state where 90% of the players get KOed for even mentioning the name of the event, while a few guys are cruising through it with basically the same degree of difficulty that they had with the first event, because they have all the awesome gear (or atmas or temp items or w/e) that makes things easier.

[Shoko]

Your missing a step:

4) After you have gotten to wear the best gear for a sufficient amount of time, the developer makes that gear available to everyone and you start back at step 2.

If you add something that average joes can't do, and add awesome gear to it, then the next new event has to be even harder to compensate for the new uber gear that the leet players will be wearing. Then when the leet get their Uber +2 gear from that event, the next event has to be even harder than the second one to compensate for the uber +2 stats. The fourth event harder than the third one. This goes on until you reach a state where 90% of the players get KOed for even mentioning the name of the event, while a few guys are cruising through it with basically the same degree of difficulty that they had with the first event, because they have all the awesome gear (or atmas or temp items or w/e) that makes things easier.

Step 4 is logical and fine, but it's currently been going on for over 3 years now. It's quite alright to go back to more hardcore times once again for a while, and treat those players to something nice. I know you are trying to joke with the mock up list I made, but there is no fault in what I'm saying. That's how a generic MMO works-- gear for hardcore players will always be much better than casual content, and they deserve access to it.

There is nothing stopping a casual player from taking a few steps to circumvent doing specific content and still getting top of the line gear as well. There's nothing in this game that cannot be purchased, R/E, AHable or otherwise-- the right amount of gil will get you whatever you want in this game if you decide to go that route. There is also nothing stopping the casual player from forming their own groups to obtain much better gear than what they currently have on as well, or from joining an LS to get gear for a specific amount of time. The only thing that stops them is general laziness, reclusiveness or their own personal morality factor.

[FrankReynolds]

Step 4 is logical and fine, but it's currently been going on for over 3 years now. It's quite alright to go back to more hardcore times once again for a while, and treat those players to something nice. I know you are trying to joke with the mock up list I made, but there is no fault in what I'm saying. That's how a generic MMO works-- gear for hardcore players will always be much better than casual content, and they deserve access to it.

There is nothing stopping a casual player from taking a few steps to circumvent doing specific content and still getting top of the line gear as well. There's nothing in this game that cannot be purchased, R/E, AHable or otherwise-- the right amount of gil will get you whatever you want in this game if you decide to go that route. There is also nothing stopping the casual player from forming their own groups to obtain much better gear than what they currently have on as well, or from joining an LS to get gear for a specific amount of time. The only thing that stops them is general laziness, reclusiveness or their own personal morality factor.

I don't know what hardcore times you want to go back to. Before the level cap increase, you had what? Limbus, Sea, Sky, dynamis, kings, Salvage and ZNM? Which of those events was harder than VW? Or Neo Nyzul? Or even abyssea?

The hardcore past doesn't exist. Every end game event of old had the same result as the ones in game now. Get a bunch of people and do it every week and you will get the item. There was rarely if ever a question as to whether you would complete the run. It was always just a matter of repetition. You got +1 versions by paying more. Not by beating harder content. Billy the armadaberk warrior bad ass just paid 100 mil more than joey the mediocre adaberk warrior. He didn't beat an extra special zone that drops +1 abjurations, he just bought it from some lucky crafter. There was no +1 gear from salvage, and it had the same problems we have now. Where in you go 1,000 times and never get that 35 piece, but the dodo bird token treasure hunter thief in full af over there gets it his first run.

They have seriously run out of stuff. Asking for harder content is just begging for some infuriating new RNG based content that has no rhyme or reason to it and will not make you feel more accomplished for having gotten lucky. Best case scenario, they put in some event that only the leet can handle. The leet get gear and laugh at everyone else. Most likely scenario: They put in some crap like Neo Nyzul that is so random that you know its just luck and not skill, and people cheat until everyone has all the gear anyways.

[Sarick]

A good majority of your posts are also pretty bad. You do not speak for the community as a whole, and should not. Just as well, people should not take your posts for what they are.

I'm speaking from what the developers said and statistical data behind it. If this wasn't what the community wanted then why on earth would the original poster be ranting about it? It's because the majority of the community didn't enjoy all the hardcore content. This caused SE to lower the bar.


A good deal of people also loved the hard content, just as well as others who hated it. When you leave the realm of casual content and dive into hardcore content gear should and must be statistically stronger, as this is a typical MMO:

1) You play an MMO for strong gear, and obtain it.
2) You use strong gear to face a monster or [increasingly] difficult content.
3) You obtain stronger and better gear as your reward(s).

The process of rewards is there for both sides one gets more reward for the effect advanced skill they put in so they can attain the same overpowered gear that makes them better. The other puts in more time at a lower skill level for the same overpowered gear. Nothing wrong with getting better rewards only that these rewards should be universal at different skill level. If Joe pink spends 6 months getting an uber item and jack elite spends a one month the same item there is nothing wrong or unbalanced here.


You should not play saint at any point in time. A real person playing saint would be able to take on both sides of an argument and with it, find common ground between the two. You are only loosely speaking for yourself.

I did find common ground in a few aspects. If you poison someone they're still poisoned and will need an antidote. If you don't try and find that antidote then the poison causes damage over time it might even eventually kill them. A good saint will find common ground but they won't let one party die of poison. Read the original post again. It's underlying agenda isn't selfless or good nature for everyone. It's harsh hatred and subjective to personal motivations. Nothing is good for everyone and you can't please everyone but you can try to please the majority. The developers ran statistics on hardcore vs easier content and found that the majority disapproved in hardcore content.

Sage Sundi said this himself soon around the launch of CoP.

So, given that fact with all the bad history, 24 hour Pukefest NM, CoP, Neo Nysul, etc etc etc. You see I'm not pulling this out of my arse. They lowered the difficulty sometimes multiple times because it needed done from a community standpoint. It wasn't a single persons opinion that made these decisions it was the community and the developers together. The community cried out for change and in some cases this cry went viral. Look at FF14, they tried that crap on it. Did you see how well that went?

[Shoko]

I don't know what hardcore times you want to go back to. Before the level cap increase, you had what? Limbus, Sea, Sky, dynamis, kings, Salvage and ZNM? Which of those events was harder than VW? Or Neo Nyzul? Or even abyssea?

The hardcore past doesn't exist. Every end game event of old had the same result as the ones in game now. Get a bunch of people and do it every week and you will get the item. There was rarely if ever a question as to whether you would complete the run. It was always just a matter of repetition. You got +1 versions by paying more. Not by beating harder content. Billy the armadaberk warrior bad ass just paid 100 mil more than joey the mediocre adaberk warrior. He didn't beat an extra special zone that drops +1 abjurations, he just bought it from some lucky crafter. There was no +1 gear from salvage, and it had the same problems we have now. Where in you go 1,000 times and never get that 35 piece, but the dodo bird token treasure hunter thief in full af over there gets it his first run.

They have seriously run out of stuff. Asking for harder content is just begging for some infuriating new RNG based content that has no rhyme or reason to it and will not make you feel more accomplished for having gotten lucky. Best case scenario, they put in some event that only the leet can handle. The leet get gear and laugh at everyone else. Most likely scenario: They put in some crap like Neo Nyzul that is so random that you know its just luck and not skill, and people cheat until everyone has all the gear anyways.



If the "hardcore past" doesn't exist, then why does this thread exist? Why are there people in this very thread clamoring that everyone should be allowed the same gear that others can obtain from specific events? Surely it's not because all of the events are easy.

There was a certain point in this game that separated casuals from the hardcore. You can call it easy or what have you, but to the casual player, it was definitely something they couldn't get into for whatever reason, be it the time required to grind and obtain stuff, or just not being good enough to be let into an LS that got these specific items. Even so, some of those events can definitely be called hardcore events in terms of difficulty, by a casual's standards back then (Einherjar, CoP Dynamis, Salvage, Sky, Sandworm). They just weren't events where you could put on any sub par gear and expect excellent results, nor were they events where the casual could just jump in and put in work easy and be of benefit to their PT or Alliance-- they had to be decently geared and at least have an idea on what's going on.

Crafting is an entirely different matter at hand, esp when you speak of abjuration items. And yet, it leads back to one of my own previous arguments that I just stated-- there's nothing stopping anyone from buying whatever they want. They will just have to be well aware of the price they will have to pay to obtain.

If that is the case and everything is easy both in past and present FFXI, I must ask you this question. Are you happy with FFXI? If you are happy with FFXI as it is, awesome bro. If not, Why are you still playing if you aren't happy?

Neo Nyzul was actually a good idea at what FFXI needs right now in my opinion, but I agree that it was horribly implemented and randomness has too big a factor.

[Shoko]

I'm speaking from what the developers said and statistical data behind it. If this wasn't what the community wanted then why on earth would the original poster be ranting about it? It's because the majority of the community didn't enjoy all the hardcore content. This caused SE to lower the bar.



The process of rewards is there for both sides one gets more reward for the effect advanced skill they put in so they can attain the overpowered get that makes them better the other puts in more time at a lower skill level. Nothing wrong with getting better rewards only that these rewards should be universal at different skill level. If Joe pink spends 6 months getting an uber item and jack elite spends a one month the same item there is nothing wrong or unbalanced here.



I did find common ground in a few aspects. If you poison someone they're still poisoned and will need an antidote. If you don't try and find that antidote then the poison causes damage over time it might even eventually kill them. A good saint will find common ground but they won't let one party die of poison. Read the original post again. It's underlying agenda isn't selfless or good nature for everyone. It's harsh hatred and subjective to personal motivations. Nothing is good for everyone and you can't please everyone but you can try to please the majority. The developers ran statistics on hardcore vs easier content and found that the majority disapproved in hardcore content.

Sage Sundi said this himself soon around the launch of CoP.

So, given that fact with all the bad history, 24 hour Pukefest NM, CoP, Neo Nysul, etc etc etc. You see I'm not pulling this out of my arse. They lowered the difficulty sometimes multiple times because it needed done from a community standpoint. It wasn't a single persons opinion that made these decisions it was the community and the developers together. The community cried out for change and in some cases this cry went viral.

I agree with some of your sentiments. SE definitely saw the problem in the past and made much of the content very solo/duo/lowman friendly and implemented it as Abyssea & Neo Nyzul. They also added the trigger/atma system to these events and Voidwatch to already make these easy events even easier.

Now there is another public outcry starting up that much of this content is now too easy and that they want a return to more difficult content as well as the returned feeling of exploration and newness, hence why they stated these things in the coming expansion. Do you really want more of the same trigger systems, and artificially boosted buffs that give you the preemptive advantage? Are you happy that the actual decent content that's out right now (Legion, Neo Nyzul) is invalidated by 3rd Party Exploits and Alexander Perfect Defense spamming (respectively)?

[Sarick]

I agree with some of your sentiments. SE definitely saw the problem in the past and made much of the content very solo/duo/lowman friendly and implemented it as Abyssea & Neo Nyzul. They also added the trigger/atma system to these events and Voidwatch to already make these easy events even easier.

Now there is another public outcry starting up that much of this content is now too easy and that they want a return to more difficult content as well as the returned feeling of exploration and newness, hence why they stated these things in the coming expansion. Do you really want more of the same trigger systems, and artificially boosted buffs that give you the preemptive advantage? Are you happy that the actual decent content that's out right now (Legion, Neo Nyzul) is invalidated by 3rd Party Exploits and Alexander Perfect Defense spamming (respectively)?

This should be addressed in the upcoming expansion. It's design is based after the level cap was raised to 99 so the content should have that NEW effect.

The plans behind the expansion can be felt with the crafter ranks being raised to 150. They won't deny it but they also won't announce it. The Free temp items in the new areas might be replaced with crafted only stuff to jump start the economy. So Those revitalizes, brews etc. could still be a part of the system just much harder to obtain easy mode.

[FrankReynolds]

If the "hardcore past" doesn't exist, then why does this thread exist? Why are there people in this very thread clamoring that everyone should be allowed the same gear that others can obtain from specific events? Surely it's not because all of the events are easy.

This thread exists because the OP is pissed that someone else showed up to the party wearing the same outfit as him. He thinks that if he get's them to build a shirt store just for him, then he will always be the cool kid at the party.

I don't find any of today's events to be all that different from the past in terms of difficulty. It's just the in your face RNG that has become a little too apparent.


They just weren't events where you could put on any sub par gear and expect excellent results, nor were they events where the casual could just jump in and put in work easy and be of benefit to their PT or Alliance-- they had to be decently geared and at least have an idea on what's going on.

With the exception of maybe Jailers, I have done every end game event that existed before abyssea on a sub par job at one point or another, and usually with several others in the same situation. It was never impossible. It just took longer. I think that is part of the problem now. A lot of people who thought they were awesome, really just had more uninterrupted play time than others. When they broke up events into 30 minute chunks, it turned out that they were not any better than the people who used to not have the cool gear. They just had more time. I didn't have a lot of relic gear for years because I just didn't have 4-5 hours where I could ignore the world for dynamis. When I changed my schedule and got time, guess what? it's not hard.

What is being pushed in this thread is an event(s) that cannot be completed without perfect gear / skills. It also bears mentioning that an event of that difficulty would probably be too hard for most of the people asking for it. So it's double lame in that sense. Within the confines of this games mechanics, it is almost impossible to make something like that. If there is a pattern, people will figure it out and repeat. If there is no pattern, there is no skill. Once 1 group has figured out how to beat something, luck and time are the only differentiating factors between who has the drop and who doesn't. Time is the only one that you get to influence. Hence it is the best basis for reward. Better players take less time to achieve things. That's the benefit to them.


Crafting is an entirely different matter at hand, esp when you speak of abjuration items. And yet, it leads back to one of my own previous arguments that I just stated-- there's nothing stopping anyone from buying whatever they want. They will just have to be well aware of the price they will have to pay to obtain.

That would completely defeat the purpose of these events. These people want something that a casual can not have. If every pink guy ups and buys the new yellow gear, then mister achievement gets sad because he looks just like them.


If that is the case and everything is easy both in past and present FFXI, I must ask you this question. Are you happy with FFXI? If you are happy with FFXI as it is, awesome bro. If not, Why are you still playing if you aren't happy?

I'm pretty happy right now. I have a lot of projects and I get to meet people socially now due to the nature of VW / Abyssea. I never really talked to a lot of people outside of my shell before that because I was always farming stuff with the same few people.

[Shoko]

I can agree with most of these sentiments as well. Much of the older content really was not super hard, just required more time to eventually beat out the RNG and also other lotters in the same group(s). However, some of the events are specifically tailored to players who had to be decently geared to obtain good results. Sure, one or two people could be sub/below par geared for old 75 Einherjar, but then everyone else pretty much had to make up for their poor gear by being very well geared themselves (after all, it was content based around killing many many mobs AND a Mega Boss; Odin just requires decently geared ranged attackers, and/or BRD rotation of players). No poorly geared or prepared alliance ever beat T2 and Odin chambers of [75] Einherjar, and many instances of this happening was clearly seen (on Carbuncle at least). 3-4 man old Salvage basically required your DDs to be well built to climb and take on everything going up, as well as the Chariots. It also required people to be physically attentive and aware players as well.

No one here is arguing for content that requires the most absolute perfect gear to complete, only the fact that it should be tailored to those players that have geared themselves very well (as well as competent merits). I've stated a number of times that this could be any player, casual or hardcore.

No one is also asking for content that is ever changing and always hard either. We love to have puzzles that are figured out after a specific amount of time. That's one of the reasons why people enjoyed the hell out of Salvage, for example (minus the absurdly low drop rate). We all know the AV fiasco, and no one cares to remember about it, as we still don't know all of the stipulations to the mob in question after 29% HP, however vague or obvious to SE.

[Ragmar]

This thread exists because the OP is pissed that someone else showed up to the party wearing the same outfit as him. He thinks that if he get's them to build a shirt store just for him, then he will always be the cool kid at the party.

I don't find any of today's events to be all that different from the past in terms of difficulty. It's just the in your face RNG that has become a little too apparent.



With the exception of maybe Jailers, I have done every end game event that existed before abyssea on a sub par job at one point or another, and usually with several others in the same situation. It was never impossible. It just took longer. I think that is part of the problem now. A lot of people who thought they were awesome, really just had more uninterrupted play time than others. When they broke up events into 30 minute chunks, it turned out that they were not any better than the people who used to not have the cool gear. They just had more time. I didn't have a lot of relic gear for years because I just didn't have 4-5 hours where I could ignore the world for dynamis. When I changed my schedule and got time, guess what? it's not hard.

What is being pushed in this thread is an event(s) that cannot be completed without perfect gear / skills. It also bears mentioning that an event of that difficulty would probably be too hard for most of the people asking for it. So it's double lame in that sense. Within the confines of this games mechanics, it is almost impossible to make something like that. If there is a pattern, people will figure it out and repeat. If there is no pattern, there is no skill. Once 1 group has figured out how to beat something, luck and time are the only differentiating factors between who has the drop and who doesn't. Time is the only one that you get to influence. Hence it is the best basis for reward. Better players take less time to achieve things. That's the benefit to them.



That would completely defeat the purpose of these events. These people want something that a casual can not have. If every pink guy ups and buys the new yellow gear, then mister achievement gets sad because he looks just like them.



I'm pretty happy right now. I have a lot of projects and I get to meet people socially now due to the nature of VW / Abyssea. I never really talked to a lot of people outside of my shell before that because I was always farming stuff with the same few people.

Actually no, the OP was because I got sick of every thread being posted, by the same 5 people mind you, asking for every aspect of the game to be reverted to facebook levels because they want everyone to be limited to playing to their standards. Again no one in favor is trying to exclude anyone we just want challenging content with rewards that reflect the content we enjoy. I even went as far as to say make said content easy peasy lemon squeezy so that anyone and their retarded dog could breeze through it. I simply asked that we be allowed to up the difficulty and have gear with minimal upgrades because if you do harder content shouldnt you get a higher level reward? Otherwise why dont we just allow lvl one mobs to drop any gear in the game. It's those who fear they are going to be left out placing such value on gear even going to the extreme of saying complete strangers could only want the gear because they are ego freaks and need this gear to feel better about themselves while admitting they only want this gear because they feel inadequate for not having what someone else has. I play less than 10 hours a week mon-fri doing random things helping my friends where I can. When I get more play time on weekends I would like content that challenges me. I don't want SE to remove content for casuals, however it seems the only reason you are against them adding content for less casual players is penis envy. The only way someone can "lord gear" over you is if you value it or their opinions of you so much that you actually allow what they have or what they think of you to change the way you feel about yourself.

Not all content is made easier with time either. Only the lvl cap increase made pre abyssea content easier. In any MMO there is an expectation that players will become more skilled with time which will allow them to engage in and complete content previously beyond their ability. I can't think of anything currently exhisting in FFXI that limits anyone from attempting to complete. The only people asking for anyone to be left out are those asking for content not to exceed their own personal limitations which in effect then eliminates rewarding content for those who may have less personal limitations. IE you dont want people to be able to have things you cant because you dont feel its fair even though you are given the same exact accessability to the same exact content.

[Sarick]

Actually no, the OP was because I got sick of every thread being posted, by the same 5 people mind you, asking for every aspect of the game to be reverted to facebook levels because they want everyone to be limited to playing to their standards. Again no one in favor is trying to exclude anyone we just want challenging content with rewards that reflect the content we enjoy. I even went as far as to say make said content easy peasy lemon squeezy so that anyone and their retarded dog could breeze through it. I simply asked that we be allowed to up the difficulty and have gear with minimal upgrades because if you do harder content shouldnt you get a higher level reward?

I'm all for allowing challenging content and greater rewards just not special rewards such as (rewarding hardcore with +1 versions). You see by giving these rewards to hardcore you're making a tier that excludes less skilled players. If the reward was higher drop rates or more trial upgrades per kill then in the end it would balance out. Giving special rewards to elites poisons the well for others in the game.

Why does it poison the well? Because, to drink from the elite pool you need to have elite immunity to drink it's waters. Everyone who isn't worthy (Less skilled) is poisoned by it.

I hear it all the time from players, GO EMP/RELIC weapon or GTFO.

[Arcon]

I don't know what hardcore times you want to go back to. Before the level cap increase, you had what? Limbus, Sea, Sky, dynamis, kings, Salvage and ZNM? Which of those events was harder than VW? Or Neo Nyzul? Or even abyssea?


I don't find any of today's events to be all that different from the past in terms of difficulty. It's just the in your face RNG that has become a little too apparent.

All of those events are harder than both VW and Abyssea. I have absolutely no idea how you can even for a second assume anything else. How many times did you duo Kirin at 75? Or JoL? AV? SSR? PW? T3 ZNM? Proto-Ultima? DL? Nidhogg? Or anything else in that content? When was the last time you took more than two people to kill anything in Abyssea (where the third guy was not just a proc job)? And I bet the number of times you wiped in VW is less than the number of times you wiped in any of the events I just mentioned. When you do a VW run you already assume that you're going to win. You don't require skill or strategy or even a good setup.

Neo-Nyzul is hard only because of the time limit. The content itself is easy. It's just luck screwing you over. Which brings me to my next point: Why do you assume that whenever we ask for challenge we're gonna get shafted by the RNG? Neo-Nyzul is and VW are the only things I can think of where that's the case. Aside from sea capes/torques, Salvage 35 bodies and regular Dynamis AF the drop rate on pretty much everything at 75 was decent. The drop rate on Legion and Einherjar gear is alright too. I'm really not sure where you're getting this from. Is it just VW and Neo-Nyzul tainting your opinion on this, or is there something else?


What is being pushed in this thread is an event(s) that cannot be completed without perfect gear / skills. It also bears mentioning that an event of that difficulty would probably be too hard for most of the people asking for it. So it's double lame in that sense. Within the confines of this games mechanics, it is almost impossible to make something like that. If there is a pattern, people will figure it out and repeat. If there is no pattern, there is no skill. Once 1 group has figured out how to beat something, luck and time are the only differentiating factors between who has the drop and who doesn't. Time is the only one that you get to influence. Hence it is the best basis for reward. Better players take less time to achieve things. That's the benefit to them.

I think you severely overestimate the effect gear has in this situation. There is not a single event I can think of that can be cleared by a decked out alliance but can not be cleared by an alliance with people missing gear left and right. That was the case at 75 too. The only two really important stats back then were Accuracy for melee and Magic Accuracy for mages.

And I already mentioned before that the gap in gear will never be as big as it used to be, because the base is already set very high with Abyssea gear. If someone has full Empyrean +2 gear, they will have a very good basis in terms of their jobs' capabilities. Adding onto that will not make people exponentially stronger, only give them edges in situational cases.


I'm pretty happy right now. I have a lot of projects and I get to meet people socially now due to the nature of VW / Abyssea. I never really talked to a lot of people outside of my shell before that because I was always farming stuff with the same few people.

I'm not unhappy. That's also something people don't quite seem to get. As soon as someone suggests something that goes against their views people like to jump at things like "whining", "bitching" and (for the mentally challenged crowd) "u mad", without realizing that if I wasn't enjoying the game, I wouldn't be playing. This is just something that would make the game more appealing to me.

If people wanna argue against this, please keep the following in mind:

We hate RNG shafting as much as the next guy. This is not what we're asking for.
We're not asking for elitism. We do not want exclusion of players. All events should be accessible to everyone. But it should take strategy, practice and effort to win.
We're not asking for rewards that will break the game or remove the challenge. We're asking for an incentive to perform well. Whatever that incentive may be is up to SE.

[Ragmar]

I'm all for allowing challenging content and greater rewards just not special rewards such as (rewarding hardcore with +1 versions). You see by giving these rewards to hardcore you're making a tier that excludes less skilled players. If the reward was higher drop rates or more trial upgrades per kill then in the end it would balance out. Giving special rewards to elites poisons the well for others in the game.

Why does it poison the well? Because, to drink from the elite pool you need to have elite immunity to drink it's waters. Everyone who isn't worthy (Less skilled) is poisoned by it.

I hear it all the time from players, GO EMP/RELIC weapon or GTFO.

The higher tier more desireable rewards does not exclude anyone. Everyone is able to attempt it. Thier own personal limitations exclude them if anything. To make it so no one is poisoned from the elite pool new characters would have to start FFXi lvl 99 all jobs with all gear, weapons, clears, quests, blah blah blah. Why? Because otherwise someone is always going to have something someone else has. Someone is always going to say something is too hard or requires too much time. Whose to say the lvl 99 player with limited gear and skill is more deserving than the lvl 1 player who just started. You can't please everyone but you can do the fair thing and allow everyone the same chance to participate and leave it up to them to succeed or fail. Failing provides teaching experiences and allows people to develop skills which then allow them to succeed. I truely believe there are very few people who, with some experience, cannot succeed in every FFXI content. At 75 cap it only required you have the right jobs, and the players playing those jobs had specific skill sets. No new group of players that didnt understand a HNMs AI was going to walk in on SMN burned lvl 75 jobs and kill even lowly little Fafnir. Oh the spike flails would be glorious.

[Sarick]

The higher tier more desireable rewards does not exclude anyone. Everyone is able to attempt it. Thier own personal limitations exclude them if anything.


The answer is still no. I gave a solution to fix it. If the lower tier normal players don't get a chance at the same items then it's unbalanced.

Listen, you can't understand this, the complexity seems beyond your understanding. The advanced hardcore does get better rewards. Think about it like this, if you fight an enemy that drops say twilight mail at 5% on normal mode and 25% on hardcore mode then the person doing the fight in hard mode has a GREATER reward possibility. Refer to quote #1 at the end of this post.

Special items aren't needed to supplement the difficulty. The only reason someone would want this is to show off themselves. Like Frank said if this is your goal make the damn armor another color. Giving it higher stats to make you better in turn makes you look weaker because your using the hard mode to make future fights easier mode. It's a contradiction of logic.

You can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that your going to be getting better rewards faster then Joe pink if you beat something in hard mode. Just because Joe pink can get it in easier mode from luck or hard work at a lower tier, it shouldn't make it less rewarding for you and your piers if the gear is still awesome sauce. Refer to quote #1 at the end of this post.

What you promote is in fact something that limits others so they need to do hardcore mode or GTFO. You see why your logic is so flawed. If Joe pink can't get it then it's merely an epen's piece for the upper echelon of the user base. This is why it excludes people which you cleverly stated you didn't want. Refer to quote #2 and #3 at the end of this post.

On a final note.. Please start paragraphing your WALL-O-TEXT, I might not have the best English or grammar skills but, I do seriously try to make things as understandable and convenient as possible to read. SEE all the edits?

--- Relevance to Original Post ---


I think a basic but workable idea to fix the problem this creates, for those of us who want a more challenging FFXI experience, is a difficutly setting with scaled rewards.


I mean it just makes sense that the reward should be reflective of the investment. This way those who require instant gratification and easy buttons should be happy with the current easy mode version of FFXI. Elitests would have engaging long term LOLhardcore content with rewarding gear for their efforts. Those who fall in between would be able to choose event by event which difficulty they wanted to participate in.


This is in no way meant to insult casuals either it's simply trying to fix FFXI so that all can enjoy it at their own level.

[Dreamin]

wow, this is still going on. I can only think of 1 thing tbh:

http://wiseguise.guildzilla.com/guild/static/images/awards/hello-epeen.png

[Arcon]

The answer is still no. I gave a solution to fix it. If the lower tier normal players don't get a chance at the same items then it's unbalanced.

You never gave a solution. You told us to suck it. That is very different.


Listen, you can't understand this, the complexity seems beyond your understanding. The advanced hardcore does get better rewards. Think about it like this, if you fight an enemy that drops say twilight mail at 5% on normal mode and 25% on hardcore mode then the person doing the fight in hard mode has a GREATER reward possibility.

I already told you twice why it doesn't compare. And I gave reasons for it as well. Although the complexity of it seems to be beyond your understanding. Tl;dr, a greater reward possibility is inherently different from a greater reward. That's not up for debate. If you don't get that, you have no place arguing here.


Special items aren't needed to supplement the difficulty. The only reason someone would want this is to show off themselves. Like Frank said if this is your goal make the damn armor another color. Giving it higher stats to make you better in turn makes you look weaker because your using the hard mode to make future fights easier mode. It's a contradiction of logic.

I'll tell you what's a contradiction. You're telling people that we only want good items to show off. Then you tell us that we should just get the same gear in a different color, which is good for absolutely nothing other than showing off. Better gear has a purpose. Different colors don't. They are just to show people how good you are. That's the definition of showing off. You suggest this and at the same time belittle people for it. That's a contradiction.

(Also, logic can't be contradicted. Your perpetually bad choice of words does not help your agenda.)

Better gear does reduce the challenge quantitatively, but not qualitatively. Fights may go faster, require less cures, maybe even one less DD if everyone's decked out. That does not reduce the actual challenge though. You'd still have to have people who know their shit, who know what to do at all times, even when things go south. You still have to map out a strategy, know what the working setups are, assign people to different tasks, etc. Gear does not win fights, never. We never asked for content that requires the best gear. We asked for content that requires skill. And better gear does not remove the need for skill.

Don't believe me? Take an alliance with a VW mentality and pop JoL. Not AV, JoL. See how far they'll get.


You can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that your going to be getting better rewards faster then Joe pink if you beat something in hard mode. Just because Joe pink can get it in easier mode from luck or hard work at a lower tier, it shouldn't make it less rewarding for you and your piers if the gear is still awesome sauce.

I bolded the terribly wrong part. You can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that that's no incentive to play better. Also, it is still not a display of skill. I can farm Dynamis as fast as possible and it still requires no strategy, no reaction to bad situations (because there are none), no skill. When there's no challenge involved, every achievement seems lackluster.


What you promote is in fact something that limits others so they need to do hardcore mode or GTFO. You see why your logic is so flawed. If Joe pink can't get it then it's merely an epen's piece for the upper echelon of the user base. This is why it excludes people which you cleverly stated you didn't want.

But that's the thing you're too daft to understand: Joe pink can get it. No one is suggesting HNM-style competition that inherently excludes others. It's not that if some guy is a good player others can't be too. There's no limited supply of player skill in FFXI that some people just have more of. Everyone should get a chance, everyone should be able to. But everyone should be required to work for it, and I don't mean by grinding 10k of X or 30k of Y. I mean by improving so that they are good enough to get it eventually.

Your argument can be applied to the entire game: "That Lv35 guy can't do Dynamis? Then everybody doing it is excluding him, obviously." That statement is inherently flawed. He's just not on the right level to do it yet (in this case literally). The same can be said for Joe pink. No one is stopping him from participating. But he may not be on the level to win it yet. But no one's stopping him from getting there either. It may just require work on his part.


wow, this is still going on. I can only think of 1 thing tbh:

http://wiseguise.guildzilla.com/guild/static/images/awards/hello-epeen.png

You obviously can't think much.

[Demon6324236]

You never gave a solution. You told us to suck it. That is very different.

Solution = People doing content on higher levels get higher drop rates, not unique stats or gear.

Which should be enough, if you fight Kaggen, you have 1% chance at a Mekira, you fight Kaggen Hard mode(no atma), you get a 5% chance, you fight Kaggen Very Hard mode(no atma or temps), you get 20% chance, or you fight Kaggen Insanity mode(no atma, temps, or 2-hour abilities) you get a 50% chance. Raising the chances of the rewards as you go up.

The other idea is special glows and such, which seems the more likely. SE would probably go the same route as RME, just make normal ones for everyone which alot of people will get, and then make glowing ones, which almost no one will get. The difference is that if you get a glow by this kind of content, you may not be laughed at like if you were to get an Afterglow.


Take an alliance with a VW mentality and pop JoL. Not AV, JoL. See how far they'll get.

I have been with an Alliance who went to kill AV, JoL was a simple zerg down with no special prep at all really, I mean a few people died but thats about all. AV was about the same as a standard run on Prov Watcher except we needed 1 SMN a party for PD, then cycled a BRD, COR, and had SCH for Embrava, after that the DDs just zerged AV down, not so hard.

What I just described btw is the VW mentality, get buffs, get invincible buff, zerg thing till it dies or you die 1st.

[Sarick]

You never gave a solution. You told us to suck it. That is very different.

Where exactly did I say "Suck it" in a phrase. It's stuff like this that you can't quote because I never said "Suck it" that may be up to your interpretation but saying words I didn't write shows you grasping at straws.


I already told you twice why it doesn't compare. And I gave reasons for it as well. Although the complexity of it seems to be beyond your understanding. Tl;dr, a greater reward possibility is inherently different from a greater reward. That's not up for debate. If you don't get that, you have no place arguing here.

I also said the reason I think it doesn't compare for you is because you feel inadequacy and need something special to make you feel more accomplished then Joe pink.


I'll tell you what's a contradiction. You're telling people that we only want good items to show off. Then you tell us that we should just get the same gear in a different color, which is good for absolutely nothing other than showing off. Better gear has a purpose. Different colors don't. They are just to show people how good you are. That's the definition of showing off. You suggest this and at the same time belittle people for it. That's a contradiction.

Why I could care less if you got a golden suit of armor to prance around in. I do see others biting their fingernails trying to get the +1 versions and frustration from the hardcore content they are unworthy of. Good going separate the less skilled and disabled players from feeling accomplished.


(Also, logic can't be contradicted. Your perpetually bad choice of words does not help your agenda.)

I changed my mind I'm totally not for this, at all then. Why it's people like you that are greedy and want more more more. Destructive greed that causes imbalance has shown me that If there are multiple paths like you ask such in your way then it would further separate the community into haves and have nots pre-abysea. The solution I gave wasn't a dead disagreement it was a compromise. Since you can't compromise then you want to throw it all out window by making an arse of yourself.


I bolded the terribly wrong part. You can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that that's no incentive to play better. Also, it is still not a display of skill. I can farm Dynamis as fast as possible and it still requires no strategy, no reaction to bad situations (because there are none), no skill. When there's no challenge involved, every achievement seems lackluster.

Really, how many people have fully upgraded EMPs? Humm, I don't just mean the level 99 versions I mean the FULLY upgraded emps. Take a step back now and tell me do you have a fully upgraded emp? My guess is a fat no. Even the small numbers of players with hardcore skills don't have these. They are a lot of work.

My suggestion/compromise would help those hardcore get their gear just faster. If that's not good enough then what is? Have you been playing to much on the test server to quantify relevance of the live server from these leet items or is it you just need some emotional crutch?


But that's the thing you're too daft to understand: Joe pink can get it. No one is suggesting HNM-style competition that inherently excludes others. It's not that if some guy is a good player others can't be too. There's no limited supply of player skill in FFXI that some people just have more of. Everyone should get a chance, everyone should be able to. But everyone should be required to work for it, and I don't mean by grinding 10k of X or 30k of Y. I mean by improving so that they are good enough to get it eventually.

What are you smoking, Joe pink wouldn't get it, most people might just quit. I've had about 12 people tell me when the last phase of VW was put in they didn't like the direction SE was headed toward obsessively hardcore grinding content. You guessed it these people quit. So much for keeping the veterans with low drop rates for tougher enemies. Even with the (easy mode cheats) not everyone can win. Practice doesn't make perfect.

The truth is Joe Pink would get the big F'you when he ask to join these groups. You really want Joe pink to feel inferior because the players in this game can be real jerks to less skilled players. Go ahead try lie to everyone more. This is what ruins the game and causes people to quit over frustration.

You sit back with the jaded belief that the community wants content like this when the outcry from the majority says otherwise. You then insult me for standing up for what I think would harm the community. Good going, I insult you back, excellent compromise.


Your argument can be applied to the entire game: "That Lv35 guy can't do Dynamis? Then everybody doing it is excluding him, obviously." That statement is inherently flawed. He's just not on the right level to do it yet (in this case literally). The same can be said for Joe pink. No one is stopping him from participating. But he may not be on the level to win it yet. But no one's stopping him from getting there either. It may just require work on his part.

Poor example, in the game when leveling a character its power increases dynamically each new level. Under your fair system :rolleyes: a players skill or natural ability has the ability to reach the same level in skill. This is flawed in itself because everyone learns differently and has inherent limits to their mastery of a given skill. Again, prove me wrong here.

You tell me if the people winning gold metals at the Olympics can be achieved by any random person off the street? No, they worked hard busted their butts and have skill sets that some would call superhuman. Joe pink is an average player and you're standing on your soap box saying I want better stuff to differentiate me from Joe pink so I'm more awesome gear wise. Joe pink doesn't have a chance in hell.




wow, this is still going on. I can only think of 1 thing tbh:

http://wiseguise.guildzilla.com/guild/static/images/awards/hello-epeen.png

You obviously can't think much.

Waoh, this fella was just stating the obvious.

[Dreamin]

No, all my brain cells can come up with is '"nother thread turned into e-peed"! So, yeah, sorry if I can't think too much because it seems we keep turning every discussion into another e-peed discussion. When it come to e-peed, I have no answer and there's not much worth thinking about or discussing about other than to post some images and trolls the e-peeners for some entertainment value since that's at least fun to watch their responses.

[Ragmar]

The answer is still no. I gave a solution to fix it. If the lower tier normal players don't get a chance at the same items then it's unbalanced.

Listen, you can't understand this, the complexity seems beyond your understanding. The advanced hardcore does get better rewards. Think about it like this, if you fight an enemy that drops say twilight mail at 5% on normal mode and 25% on hardcore mode then the person doing the fight in hard mode has a GREATER reward possibility. Refer to quote #1 at the end of this post.

Special items aren't needed to supplement the difficulty. The only reason someone would want this is to show off themselves. Like Frank said if this is your goal make the damn armor another color. Giving it higher stats to make you better in turn makes you look weaker because your using the hard mode to make future fights easier mode. It's a contradiction of logic.

You can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that your going to be getting better rewards faster then Joe pink if you beat something in hard mode. Just because Joe pink can get it in easier mode from luck or hard work at a lower tier, it shouldn't make it less rewarding for you and your piers if the gear is still awesome sauce. Refer to quote #1 at the end of this post.

What you promote is in fact something that limits others so they need to do hardcore mode or GTFO. You see why your logic is so flawed. If Joe pink can't get it then it's merely an epen's piece for the upper echelon of the user base. This is why it excludes people which you cleverly stated you didn't want. Refer to quote #2 and #3 at the end of this post.

On a final note.. Please start paragraphing your WALL-O-TEXT, I might not have the best English or grammar skills but, I do seriously try to make things as understandable and convenient as possible to read. SEE all the edits?

--- Relevance to Original Post ---

Increasing the drop rate 5% per tier does not mean that joe pink isnt going to get his RNG 1/1 while Mr. Hardcore elite won't go 1/100 (obvious exaggeration but point is still valid). You're asking for special treatment for people with less play time and less ability to complete content no matter what where as I am asking for content available for anyone. SE does not have to only make content my 5 year old can dominate nor should they.

As many times as you want to say its us who want gear to validate ourselves many of you have posted the fact and that is you who feel inadequate or envious when others can do things you cannot or have things you do not for whatever reason. That's like caping the score on a game like bubble breaker at 1 because if not everyone can reach that score they might feel inadequate.

You still can't see you are the one asking, by design, for others to have to play like you. There is always going to be someone with less play time or ability than someone else. You are asking for the bar to be set at your percieved level of casual when guess what there is always going to be someone who who percieves your level too high. This is how the game will be reverted to kindergarden levels, because someone will always think the game is too hard or takes an excessive amount of time.

You keep taking about "EVERYONE should be able to have exactly the same things" and under my suggestion they "can" have them. It is their own choice and based on their own ability which determines what gear they would have.

[Sarick]

Increasing the drop rate 5% per tier does not mean that joe pink isnt going to get his RNG 1/1 while Mr. Hardcore elite won't go 1/100 (obvious exaggeration but point is still valid). You're asking for special treatment for people with less play time and less ability to complete content no matter what where as I am asking for content available for anyone. SE does not have to only make content my 5 year old can dominate nor should they.
do not for whatever reason. That's like caping the score on a game like bubble breaker at 1 because if not everyone can reach that score they might feel inadequate.

You want hardcore content options then to be fair make easy content combat path/options to balance it out. Giving one side better statistical gear isn't balanced. Letting them have a higher drop rate should be what its about. SE knows this that's why they made drop rates so horrible for VW content. What's your clever retort for this, it's just my imagination or something maybe?

[Arcon]

I apologize in advance for the long post, I promise I'll keep my future posts shorter. I won't be repeating things I say in here again, in future I'll just reference them when I have to reply with the same things over and over again because some people just don't get it.


Solution = People doing content on higher levels get higher drop rates, not unique stats or gear.

Wrong. This is not a solution. We say we want something. You say we can't get it and should take something entirely unrelated instead. That's not a solution. It doesn't cater to our request at all.


Which should be enough, if you fight Kaggen, you have 1% chance at a Mekira, you fight Kaggen Hard mode(no atma), you get a 5% chance, you fight Kaggen Very Hard mode(no atma or temps), you get 20% chance, or you fight Kaggen Insanity mode(no atma, temps, or 2-hour abilities) you get a 50% chance. Raising the chances of the rewards as you go up.

I'm not at all saying this is a bad idea. I would jump at that. But it's still not what we're asking for in this thread.


Where exactly did I say "Suck it" in a phrase. It's stuff like this that you can't quote because I never said "Suck it" that may be up to your interpretation but saying words I didn't write shows you grasping at straws.

It's called paraphrasing.


I also said the reason I think it doesn't compare for you is because you feel inadequacy and need something special to make you feel more accomplished then Joe pink.

It doesn't just "not compare for me" it does not compare at all. The reason you think it is doesn't matter and doesn't add anything to this discussion. I could just as well say that you're just a gimp who's scared of not being able to do what us good players can and that's why you're throwing a fit at the idea. But that's just as asinine a statement and I know better than to stoop that low. I guess you don't.


Why I could care less if you got a golden suit of armor to prance around in. I do see others biting their fingernails trying to get the +1 versions and frustration from the hardcore content they are unworthy of. Good going separate the less skilled and disabled players from feeling accomplished.

If you're playing this game to feel accomplished, then how can you not want to be good? If that's what you wanna be, then it's likely you're one of the hardcore gamers. I know many people of all different categories, and people who play to have fun (which you claim should be the norm) do not care for being accomplished, nor do they care for having every piece of gear there is. I know tons of people who will never go after a Defending Ring and who are totally find with that. And if someone does want it, I know they're willing to put the effort in. That is all I'm asking here (only with the luck-aspect removed in this case).


I changed my mind I'm totally not for this, at all then. Why it's people like you that are greedy and want more more more. Destructive greed that causes imbalance has shown me that If there are multiple paths like you ask such in your way then it would further separate the community into haves and have nots pre-abysea. The solution I gave wasn't a dead disagreement it was a compromise. Since you can't compromise then you want to throw it all out window by making an arse of yourself.

As I said above, you just said we can't get have what we want and should be fine with something else entirely. That's not a compromise at all. There's nothing destructive about what I'm suggesting. Every person with more than half a brain cell knows that this is a game. In a game you either play for fun or play to win. If you play for fun, adding new gear doesn't have to interest you in the first place, if the content is no fun for you you simply won't do it. If you play to win then this is precisely what you're playing for: to strife to get the things you want.


Really, how many people have fully upgraded EMPs? Humm, I don't just mean the level 99 versions I mean the FULLY upgraded emps. Take a step back now and tell me do you have a fully upgraded emp? My guess is a fat no. Even the small numbers of players with hardcore skills don't have these. They are a lot of work.

What the hell does this have to do with anything discussed here? This is the complete opposite of what I was asking. Having an empyrean at 99 takes literally zero skill, you can buy the entire thing. And even if you don't buy it but try to farm it, it still takes almost zero skill. Most HMP mobs are laughable. Only the Riftdross/Riftcinder require some amount of planning and strategy, but even then it's not hard to do with people simply think while they're playing.

And for the record, as I said before, I just finished my Mandau. Now I'm working on my Ukonvasara. With current progress it should be Lv99 in about three months' time. I still don't see how this is in any way relevant to the discussion. When I get it it will not prove that I'm hardcore or skilled. It will just prove that I had nothing else that was more important to invest of. The rest is just a matter of time.


My suggestion/compromise would help those hardcore get their gear just faster. If that's not good enough then what is?

Better gear. Your suggestion wouldn't help us get anything that couldn't be gotten another way. It's not a testiment to a player's skill. It's just an item with no more meaning than it had before, and as such is not an incentive to try harder.


Have you been playing to much on the test server to quantify relevance of the live server from these leet items or is it you just need some emotional crutch?

I normally really don't care for personal attacks, but this is really getting old. Your entire argument revolves around me being a showoff or otherwise emotionally needy person. It's getting tiresome to keep having to reply to that. Please say something original for a change.


What are you smoking, Joe pink wouldn't get it, most people might just quit. I've had about 12 people tell me when the last phase of VW was put in they didn't like the direction SE was headed toward obsessively hardcore grinding content. You guessed it these people quit. So much for keeping the veterans with low drop rates for tougher enemies. Even with the (easy mode cheats) not everyone can win. Practice doesn't make perfect.

Yes, that's why Voidwatch sucks ass. Good we agree on something. And this is completely unrelated to anything we have suggested. The thing that made Voidwatch suck (and by extension the thing that made people rage and quit) was the low drop rates. And as I said before, we do not as for more RNG dominated content. We hate it just as much as everyone else.

And Voidwatch is literally so easy that I haven't seen a single shout party that didn't win whatever they were set out to do in almost a year. That was before the weakening items even. Now it's easier. The only harder parts are the high tier Jeuno runs, everything else can be won by everyone. And this is not just an elitist statement, but an observation: because I'm actually seeing every single person who sets out to do a shout run win. This is not my opinion, this is what is actually happening. So you can't be honest when you say that Joe pink can't win it, because he most definitely can.


The truth is Joe Pink would get the big F'you when he ask to join these groups. You really want Joe pink to feel inferior because the players in this game can be real jerks to less skilled players. Go ahead try lie to everyone more. This is what ruins the game and causes people to quit over frustration.

Arguing with you has really lost all of its appeal to me. You have your fingers stuck deep in your ears and are humming, unwilling to hear anything I have to say. Here's the thing though, the only subjective thing I said was that I, personally, don't care about exclusivity or being superior to others. That's the only thing I can't prove. Everything else I said was fact. It's a fact that better items and a better chance at the same items are different things. It's a fact that something like this can be done without the RNG screwing you over. It's a fact that content like this can be made accessible to everyone. It's a fact that most people who play for entertainment don't care about some items being out of their reach (because entertainment is determined by events themselves, not rewards). Absolutely everything you say is based on your belief of what you think is right and what you think I want, none of which seem very convincing to me.


You sit back with the jaded belief that the community wants content like this when the outcry from the majority says otherwise.

Again you're factually wrong. I don't believe that. I can see that some people are opposed to it. I know that there are some people who want it though.


You then insult me for standing up for what I think would harm the community. Good going, I insult you back, excellent compromise.

Again, wrong. I never insulted you at all. I called you daft because after saying something twice before you still didn't get it. And now I told you a third time and you're still prancing around the issue and redirecting everything I say with your personal opinions and unrelated statements. That's a valid reason for calling someone daft. If you replied with something other than how I wanted to show off my epeen I may give you a more pleasant response, but nothing you said so far compelled me to do that.


Poor example, in the game when leveling a character its power increases dynamically each new level. Under your fair system :rolleyes: a players skill or natural ability has the ability to reach the same level in skill. This is flawed in itself because everyone learns differently and has inherent limits to their mastery of a given skill. Again, prove me wrong here.

You tell me if the people winning gold metals at the Olympics can be achieved by any random person off the street? No, they worked hard busted their butts and have skill sets that some would call superhuman. Joe pink is an average player and you're standing on your soap box saying I want better stuff to differentiate me from Joe pink so I'm more awesome gear wise. Joe pink doesn't have a chance in hell.

How can you possibly say that without knowing the content? I am not asking for an absolute FFXI ranking, the best gets something that the second-best doesn't. That's you reading bullshit into my words to please your own agenda. Yes, maybe Joe pink will never be as good as Jack silver, but that doesn't mean he can't clear the content required for it under various circumstances, like in a group that negates some of his weak points. I've played with some really big noobs, and everyone I've met in seven years of playing could be molded and taught into a person that was worth having at any event (and I've done literally every event there is or was in FFXI). That's where you're comparison fails (unlike mine). In the Olympics there's only one Gold winner. About seven billion people are worse than them. That's not the case here. Even the second and third and fourth best, and many more can win and thus get the gold medal.

Sure, you may not get an entire alliance of absolutely horrendous people with no one to teach them to clear every content, but that's not even the case right now and that will never be the case. I saw an alliance wipe to Itzpapalotl just a few weeks ago. That stuff happens. That's where diversity comes in: only a few of them need to get better. Lesser efficient people can be assigned to lesser requiring roles, and more efficient people to more important ones. Everyone has their part to play. I have actual evidence to support that because I've run several events and a linkshell with people with a largely (as in absolute majority) social and casual background, and we've cleared pretty much everything at 75 (except AV and PW) and everything except Neo-Einherjar and Legion right now (and that's because we're not doing those atm, I'm running them with a different shell). And it was rough sometimes, because we were all underskilled and inexperienced. And we're still not great players. But with dedication and effort and a willingness to learn we were able to win things after a while. Sometimes it was easier, sometimes rougher, depending on our luck and attendance, but we got there.

And when we did it was an amazing feeling. Your first Proto-Ultima win, your first Dynamis Lord win, your first Ouryu win. Those moments we all worked for and we will all remember. That's the moments I enjoyed most in the game. That's the thing I want to have in the game again.


You want hardcore content options then to be fair make easy content combat path/options to balance it out. Giving one side better statistical gear isn't balanced. Letting them have a higher drop rate should be what its about. SE knows this that's why they made drop rates so horrible for VW content. What's your clever retort for this, it's just my imagination or something maybe?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I just want a clarification, because I can't figure out what your point is. Are you saying SE is deliberately evil for making VW drop rate so low? That they're trying to punish the playerbase or something? And how is being better giving us an edge in the drop rate anyway? I really don't get what you're trying to say at all here. Not that it's related to this anyway, because as I said above, VW is a really bad example. We don't want anything with a low drop rate and we never said that.

[Demon6324236]

So far as I can tell what has been asked for is a reward to come with having done something with higher difficulty. If this is the case your reward is a higher rate of items dropping. As someone said a few pages ago, its the same with Dynamis. If you do EP mobs, you get less AC, and less Forgottens, but its easier, if you fight DCs, its harder, but you get more drops. It balances out while giving everyone the same things still. I understand thats not exactly whats being asked for, but its a variant. I understand the want of items that take skill to get, my problem I have ever had with this type of content is the problem of gloating.

Be it you, or someone I have never met before, anyone at all gloating because they got an item in the game that you can not or will not is bad. I see Afterglow as the exact opposite to be honest, thats why I have no care about it. It has a look to it, but its effects are mainly worthless in the end, not to mention that with everything you have to put into it, I would laugh at you before I would envy you. Putting a shine on items, or making them look different, those kind of things I do not mind, they let you stand out, have a cool reward, but take away the ability for anyone to gloat about it because it is truly cosmetic.

People may say to Blacklist people who do it or whatever, but it doesn't solve the problem. People are assholes all throughout this community, and as such, I think we should give as few reasons to be one as we can. Ragmar said it himself that on Phoenix alot of good players are assholes, and I agree, alot are. My question is what happens when you give an asshole something no one else has? The answer is they use it to give them a reason to be more of an ass, normally by gloating.

Like I said, not everyone will do it, but its like if they gave unlimited macros, a few people would use it for automating things like skill ups, and those people who would, taint the group, and make it bad for anyone to get it. That is at least how I see it. So in my mind, higher drops = ok, glowy/standout/cool effects = ok, super powered gear that makes you stronger = not ok.

[Sarick]

I apologize in advance for the long post, I promise I'll keep my future posts shorter. I won't be repeating things I say in here again, in future I'll just reference them when I have to reply with the same things over and over again because some people just don't get it.

Wrong. This is not a solution. We say we want something. You say we can't get it and should take something entirely unrelated instead. That's not a solution. It doesn't cater to our request at all.


I stopped reading when you said Wrong. I already provided relevance and backing. Others who's posted also took the same stance as me. You can stonewall all you want it's not helping you, You and your buddy still haven't provided enough content in your post to hold any ground. I specifically pointed out flaws in your designs and aspirations yet you still push despite the evidence of both the community and the designers who communicate with the community have said.

Several people have told you that they don't like the original posters ideas/rant or your system. Stand up be proud that you tried then step back gracefully.

[FrankReynolds]

Giving the people who play the best stuff that makes them play better and excluding everyone else from it is a fundamentally flawed approach. It's like going "hey barry, you hit the most home runs! Congratulations! Next year you can use an aluminum bat, but just you. No one else gets one. Oh and feel free to take all the roids you want. You are approved!"

Want recognition for being a great player? Play on an even playing field.

[Arcon]

I stopped reading when you said Wrong. I already provided relevance and backing.

No you didn't, ever.


Others who's posted also took the same stance as me. You can stonewall all you want it's not helping you, You and your buddy still haven't provided enough content in your post to hold any ground. I specifically pointed out flaws in your designs and aspirations yet you still push despite the evidence of both the community and the designers who communicate with the community have said.

No you didn't, ever. You never pointed out any flaws. You argue for the sake of arguing. You have no arguments and you don't want to give up. That's called stubbornness.


Several people have told you that they don't like the original posters ideas/rant or your system. Stand up be proud that you tried then step back gracefully.

I have no problem with people disagreeing. People telling me I'm wrong and insulting me without giving any reason is what I have a problem with. I explained to you in detail why this wouldn't hurt anyone. I know my last post was long, but don't let it scare you, it's in there. You on the other hand have only one argument, and that's accusing me of wanting to stand out.


Giving the people who play the best stuff that makes them play better and excluding everyone else from it is a fundamentally flawed approach.

No, it's the fundamental concept of any game ever. You get rewards for doing good things that help you with future content. It's also the very underlying concept of FFXI. That's like saying "Getting to 99 only makes content easier, so you're obviously a noob if you want to be at 99 to do it!", which is just as inappropriate. Let me ask you this, why do you get new gear? Why do you try to play good? Challenge should be there, but it's the player's job to tackle it somehow. You do this with strategy, real-time tactics, skill and - surprise - gear. That's part of everyday gameplay. SE tries to make challenging content, we try to figure out ways to beat them. And getting gear to be able to beat them is part of it. It describes all of FFXI and all of every other RPG.


It's like going "hey barry, you hit the most home runs! Congratulations! Next year you can use an aluminum bat, but just you. No one else gets one. Oh and feel free to take all the roids you want. You are approved!"

It's more like "Hey Barry, you hit the most home runs! Congratulations! Next year you get to play in the bigger league, with a better club, with better trainers, better equipment, and every one of your needs will be catered to!" which pretty much describes how it currently is. Only this suggestion is less selective, as I'd like for it to be accessible to everyone. Everyone should be given the chance, but they should have try to succeed, not given the win because they're there.


Want recognition for being a great player? Play on an even playing field.

No I don't want recognition. I want a reason to be good. I don't care if anyone at all knows about it.

[Ragmar]

Giving the people who play the best stuff that makes them play better and excluding everyone else from it is a fundamentally flawed approach. It's like going "hey barry, you hit the most home runs! Congratulations! Next year you can use an aluminum bat, but just you. No one else gets one. Oh and feel free to take all the roids you want. You are approved!"

Want recognition for being a great player? Play on an even playing field.

Or it's like saying "Barry, you hit too many home runs so we've decided to remove the homerun from baseball to even the playing field. We're also going to level all salaries so that no one player makes more than another."

ESPN headline news: Baseball on strike!

Fact is players who make it to the majors do get better trainers, coaches and well everything than anyone else in baseball. You don't think a major league player gets better tools to perform his craft than the guy in AAA baseball? You do know MLB players use custom fitted bats right? Are they Aluminum? No cause everyone agree's they would break the game as well as the fear of ball off the bat speed for infielders. Bats require certain specs to be allowed but nearly any MLB player known for hitting is using a custom made bat designed for his specific swing. TBH I dont know if you could have used a worse sports analogy.

Also funny you mention roids lol, primal brew, VW weakening items, temp items anyone.

You also keep saying rewarding one person excludes content for someone else. This couldn't be further from the truth. Nothing anyone else has has ever excluded me from any content in game. In 8 years nothing anyone else had ever effected my ability to participate in content. My play time did. SE removed HNM. My skills did. I learned my jobs and became adept in how to use them.

[Ragmar]

"Play on an even playing field" is exactly what I want. I don't want anything except the player engaging in it to effect the outcome. You can't get any more "even" than that. You don't want even, you want biased content to be designed to what you believe is the highest level challenge you believe reasonable. You say "even" but what you are asking for is your skill/ability, or whatever else you want to call it, to be the highest level so that nobody can have something you cannot. The limiting factor in my suggestion is someones personal ability/skill, the limiting factor of yours is your percieved notion of what is appropriate.

[FrankReynolds]

No, it's the fundamental concept of any game ever. You get rewards for doing good things that help you with future content. It's also the very underlying concept of FFXI. That's like saying "Getting to 99 only makes content easier, so you're obviously a noob if you want to be at 99 to do it!", which is just as inappropriate. Let me ask you this, why do you get new gear? Why do you try to play good? Challenge should be there, but it's the player's job to tackle it somehow. You do this with strategy, real-time tactics, skill and - surprise - gear. That's part of everyday gameplay. SE tries to make challenging content, we try to figure out ways to beat them. And getting gear to be able to beat them is part of it. It describes all of FFXI and all of every other RPG.

And guess what happens when 3/4 of the people playing the game can't get the gear?


It's more like "Hey Barry, you hit the most home runs! Congratulations! Next year you get to play in the bigger league, with a better club, with better trainers, better equipment, and every one of your needs will be catered to!" which pretty much describes how it currently is. Only this suggestion is less selective, as I'd like for it to be accessible to everyone. Everyone should be given the chance, but they should have try to succeed, not given the win because they're there.

That wasn't a good twist on my analogy. Barry doesn't get to take the trainers, money or his needs out onto the ball field. It's just him with the same regulation wooden bat that everyone else gets. It all sounds great from the outside looking in, but when he gets out on the field, its him and his team. They don't get to use pitching machines and whirlpool tubs on the field. No special gear.

You make it sound like getting empys, relics, nyzul, Legion, VW etc. gear is as easy as just showing up. I'm standing in Port Jeuno right now, and I can't find a single person with perfect gear here.


No I don't want recognition. I want a reason to be good. I don't care if anyone at all knows about it.

Why can't you just be good to be good? In the 30 years I've been playing video games, never once has it occurred to me that a game might be more fun my character had more powerful stuff and no one else could ever get it.

If you just want an award for an achievement, why not ranks? Glow effects? Titles? Different armor models with same stats? Free warps? Gil? Cruor? Extra storage slots? Better skill up rates? Increased drops? Anything? Are you honestly telling me that you can't come up with one single way to make yourself want to play this game beyond having a stronger piece of gear than the next guy? No part of you just wants to see your character progress? To cap all the jobs? To finish all the quests? To level a new craft or find a new way to beat an old event? There is a hole that absolutely cannot be filled without besting the next guy?


The type of people who gloat about gear would find something else to gloat about so not rewarding someone with better gear for harder content doesnt fix this. You would have to make sure everything with everyone was completely even or this is still possible. I hope no one really wants to start FFXI with every gear, quest, weapon, job, skill, mission, content ect completed.

You know damn well that isn't the case at all. People might joke like "Finish your windy rank 10 missions noob." but no one is ever gonna exclude you from a group / activity over that kind of thing. All they care about how fast your gonna be able to kill stuff.



"Play on an even playing field" is exactly what I want. I don't want anything except the player engaging in it to effect the outcome. You can't get any more "even" than that. You don't want even, you want biased content to be designed to what you believe is the highest level challenge you believe reasonable. You say "even" but what you are asking for is your skill/ability, or whatever else you want to call it, to be the highest level so that nobody can have something you cannot. The limiting factor in my suggestion is someones personal ability/skill, the limiting factor of yours is your percieved notion of what is appropriate.

You keep saying stuff like this as if your actually better at the game than everyone else. Your not. I'm not trying to regulate the game to noob levels. I'm trying to stop social misfits from griefing other players. I just want everyone to have access to the same gear, so that they have the opportunity to experience the game in the same way as you and I.

[Ragmar]

So far as I can tell what has been asked for is a reward to come with having done something with higher difficulty. If this is the case your reward is a higher rate of items dropping. As someone said a few pages ago, its the same with Dynamis. If you do EP mobs, you get less AC, and less Forgottens, but its easier, if you fight DCs, its harder, but you get more drops. It balances out while giving everyone the same things still. I understand thats not exactly whats being asked for, but its a variant. I understand the want of items that take skill to get, my problem I have ever had with this type of content is the problem of gloating.

Be it you, or someone I have never met before, anyone at all gloating because they got an item in the game that you can not or will not is bad. I see Afterglow as the exact opposite to be honest, thats why I have no care about it. It has a look to it, but its effects are mainly worthless in the end, not to mention that with everything you have to put into it, I would laugh at you before I would envy you. Putting a shine on items, or making them look different, those kind of things I do not mind, they let you stand out, have a cool reward, but take away the ability for anyone to gloat about it because it is truly cosmetic.

People may say to Blacklist people who do it or whatever, but it doesn't solve the problem. People are assholes all throughout this community, and as such, I think we should give as few reasons to be one as we can. Ragmar said it himself that on Phoenix alot of good players are assholes, and I agree, alot are. My question is what happens when you give an asshole something no one else has? The answer is they use it to give them a reason to be more of an ass, normally by gloating.

Like I said, not everyone will do it, but its like if they gave unlimited macros, a few people would use it for automating things like skill ups, and those people who would, taint the group, and make it bad for anyone to get it. That is at least how I see it. So in my mind, higher drops = ok, glowy/standout/cool effects = ok, super powered gear that makes you stronger = not ok.

The type of people who gloat about gear would find something else to gloat about so not rewarding someone with better gear for harder content doesnt fix this. You would have to make sure everything with everyone was completely even or this is still possible. I hope no one really wants to start FFXI with every gear, quest, weapon, job, skill, mission, content ect completed.

[Sarick]

No you didn't, ever.

Prove to me where I didn't


No you didn't, ever. You never pointed out any flaws. You argue for the sake of arguing. You have no arguments and you don't want to give up. That's called stubbornness.

Stubbornness, humm I plea the 5th, Dose that make someones argument any less valid. You've been selectively reading and responding to minor details and leaving out the areas of impact.




I have no problem with people disagreeing. People telling me I'm wrong and insulting me without giving any reason is what I have a problem with. I explained to you in detail why this wouldn't hurt anyone. I know my last post was long, but don't let it scare you, it's in there. You on the other hand have only one argument, and that's accusing me of wanting to stand out.

We've explained why it would hurt the game. ME?, if you read through the post I can't be singled out several people have said they disagree with the system you've been promoting dispute everything you've said to sway them. On these forms I saw a quote that said something like this. If a large group of people are saying one thing and your saying another maybe you're the oddball out.

Look at the Votes on the OP vs the ones on the 3rd post. There's your darn relevance its not just me on this side of the field I just speak louder.

[Ragmar]

And guess what happens when 3/4 of the people playing the game can't get the gear?

You know damn well that isn't the case at all. People might joke like "Finish your windy rank 10 missions noob." but no one is ever gonna exclude you from a group / activity over that kind of thing. All they care about how fast your gonna be able to kill stuff.

You keep saying stuff like this as if your actually better at the game than everyone else. Your not. I'm not trying to regulate the game to noob levels. I'm trying to stop social misfits from griefing other players. I just want everyone to have access to the same gear, so that they have the opportunity to experience the game in the same way as you and I.

Random number like 3/4ths are fun. I believe people would exclude others for lack of quests just as much as they do for lack of gear. I've had plenty of noobish geared players in my VW runs that performed their proc function. It's when people get bad reps as being noobs for not having relevant skills or knowledge of the content they are trying to participate in that usually gets them excluded. I've never once claimed to be better than everyone else and you wouldnt have a clue if I was or not, none.

You don't understand that if you decide to limit content to your acceptable standards there will still be others who feel the bar is still set to high. To do what you are suggesting means the bar can be no higher than the ability of the absolute least skilled player in the game. I have seen people fail to kill a mob using multiple brews. In effect you would have to allow full time brews in all zones all the time and eliminate "K.O." in game. This is the only way EVERYONE can be guarenteed the same success rate.

I'd love to see those who grief others eliminated but until SE takes a harder stance on this it's simply not going to happen. I reported a guy for /yell "I just got (random number I forgot) Ni**er shells." The GM did nothing, the player remained in PJ laughing about their "play on words about T. Whiteshells." I'd love to see these types of people removed but again thats on SE.

Until SE simply does not allow certain accounts access to content everyone who plays does in fact have access to all content/gear. Access to, and guarenteed success in content are two very different things. When my LS was building empys we ran accross a lot of other LS's who had 10~ relics between them, we had 1. Their WAR had an armada hauberk, ours had an adaman hauberk. We would watch them fail and struggle with mobs we killed much easier. Gear does not determine outcome, at best it allows more room for error.

I would love for everyone to experience the game equally, this is exactly what my post is asking for. I want people to be able to enjoy all content on their own terms of difficulty. The part you disagree with is where I suggest harder content should have better rewards. SE absolutely needs to keep making content that is AVAILABLE to everyone. What I don't want is for the difficulty level of all content to be designed only for those who struggle with things others might find easy or for SE to predetermine 100% success for anyone.

P.S. There is always someone who will think the content is too hard unless its 100% win/drop rate.

[Arcon]

And guess what happens when 3/4 of the people playing the game can't get the gear?

I won't because it's irrelevant. That's a completely made up number with zero relevance to this topic.


You make it sound like getting empys, relics, nyzul, Legion, VW etc. gear is as easy as just showing up. I'm standing in Port Jeuno right now, and I can't find a single person with perfect gear here.

Relics and VW gear are easy, empyreans generally aren't, neither is Nyzul. None of that is particularly relevant because I never complained with the status quo. I even said specifically that I'm happy right now. Neo-Einherjar and Legion are pretty much what I had in mind with what I said, only maybe slightly more forgiving and not catered to a full alliance. Possibly even something that scales with numbers, although I'm sure SE would botch that.


Why can't you just be good to be good? In the 30 years I've been playing video games, never once has it occurred to me that a game might be more fun my character had more powerful stuff and no one else could ever get it.

I do that. I perform the best I can, always. It would just be nice to actually be rewarded for it. And the bolded part is wrong. See any one of my fifty previous posts for an explanation.


If you just want an award for an achievement, why not ranks? Glow effects? Titles? Different armor models with same stats? Free warps? Gil? Cruor? Extra storage slots? Better skill up rates? Increased drops? Anything? Are you honestly telling me that you can't come up with one single way to make yourself want to play this game beyond having a stronger piece of gear than the next guy? No part of you just wants to see your character progress? To cap all the jobs? To finish all the quests? To level a new craft or find a new way to beat an old event? There is a hole that absolutely cannot be filled without besting the next guy?

The bolded part is wrong, again. And I agree with the rest. I play for achievement, I already do everything what you say. I play to progress my character. I do things that don't give me anything other than the satisfaction of having done them. As I said before, it would simply be nice to actually be rewarded something useful for your efforts. Not everyone shares my mentality and does shit for the hell of it, and despite what you may think I'm very sure that applies to a lot of people because I already know many people this applies to personally. Everyone wants a reward, and speed is rarely an issue. The only difference to now is that skill does not play a big role in many of the events. If there were no rewards at all, no one would be playing, not even you.

[vienne]

I'll follow OP and Arcon in this thread, think I can call myself *cough* joe pink but I would like to see a bit more challenge added to the game. I need a reason to keep playing this game, i dont play for gear persé (although yes at some point I would like to get some shinies too but I'm a patient person, not all good things come over night) I prefer playing with friends in challenging content that asks for concentration and teamwork and yes challenging hard content should have better rewards then a grindfest. Also personally, I think the excuse that "if you want to make this game harder dont get buffs/atma/etc." is a very week argument. People opposing the idea of more challenge should also stop acting like they talk for the whole community cause you dont.

[Komori]

I'll follow OP and Arcon in this thread, think I can call myself *cough* joe pink but I would like to see a bit more challenge added to the game. I need a reason to keep playing this game, i dont play for gear persé (although yes at some point I would like to get some shinies too but I'm a patient person, not all good things come over night) I prefer playing with friends in challenging content that asks for concentration and teamwork and yes challenging hard content should have better rewards then a grindfest. Also personally, I think the excuse that "if you want to make this game harder dont get buffs/atma/etc." is a very week argument. People opposing the idea of more challenge should also stop acting like they talk for the whole community cause you dont.

But you do realize that as a Joe Pink they would never allow you to come along? This hard content would need the most excellent of gear since there would be no atmas or temps to make up for power. That's kind of the argument the people are trying to make, you would need all of the +2s and Neo Nyzul Gear and all of that other really good stuff that overpowers people before you could come close to tagging along.

[Arcon]

But you do realize that as a Joe Pink they would never allow you to come along? This hard content would need the most excellent of gear since there would be no atmas or temps to make up for power. That's kind of the argument the people are trying to make, you would need all of the +2s and Neo Nyzul Gear and all of that other really good stuff that overpowers people before you could come close to tagging along.

Only I already explained (twice) why that's not the case. AF3+1 gear isn't far behind AF3+2 gear, and AF3+2 gear is amazing. Sure, Nyzul gear is situationally better but it's not going to make a difference in the outcome of a fight. If you have AF3+2 gear you're well-geared. Even all the new gear they released in the year after is just icing on the cake, but a difference in quality. Everything I can do with my Nyzul gear I can do without too. It's not going to make or break a fight.

And there are plenty of people who would let them come along. There is such a thing as social event linkshells, in fact most would fall under that category. Mine is one of them and my previous one was too, and I know several others just on Leviathan. Linkshells that consist largely of casual players and tackle all kinds of content together, to all improve and get better at it, which is my entire view of what an MMORPG should be like. Try content with your friends to get better at it, eventually beat it and reap the rewards.

[Komori]

Except Social linkshells typically only do Abyssea or low-man activities together, no social with extreme casuals does Legion or most of the re-done. And for this event to be harder than any other endgame event we ever had, social linkshells are not going to even attempt it, leaving it to be a shout group you have to rely on which means that they will shout for people with empy/relic weapons and good gear. Not "Aurore Thief main-handing Thief's Knife".

And if you think different, your not playing the same game as the rest of us.

[Sarick]

Except Social linkshells typically only do Abyssea or low-man activities together, no social with extreme casuals does Legion or most of the re-done. And for this event to be harder than any other endgame event we ever had, social linkshells are not going to even attempt it, leaving it to be a shout group you have to rely on which means that they will shout for people with empy/relic weapons and good gear. Not "Aurore Thief main-handing Thief's Knife".

And if you think different, your not playing the same game as the rest of us.

You speak the truth. I can't understand why people who think they're in the upper skill levels assume they have room to speak for Joe Pink. They want harder content with better rewards to make them stand out and/or out parse Joe pink. They simply can't understand they aren't in a position to speak for them. Some social LS's are huge and they have a lot of Joe/Jane pinks. Most of these guys wouldn't get a chance.

I think I'm in between Joe Pink and Jimmy Leet depending on the day or content. To much stress dealing with Jimmy Leets.

Never once did I say I wanted all content dumbed down or made purely hardcore. This is what they agree with apparently. They've both said it a few times and I totally agree with this aspect. I'm 25% compatible with their total argument at this point. They want content that everyone has a chance at I agreed to this as well so I can add another 25%. I agreed that harder content should have higher rewards so yet again another 25%.

At this point we're 75% compatible..

Yet when they speak of the hardcore Jimmy Leet content they want special gear to go with it. I disagree with this to a point so the last 25% is whats breaking the deal. This conflicts with the portion I underlined above in accordance with what we agree on. Frank offered a solution of making them glow or gold with the same stats as a compromise but this wasn't enough.

So far A gold medal that says I beat this boss on hard mode or a higher drop rate isn't enough to satisfy them. These things are to inadequate for their sense of entitlement (or in their words accomplishment). That left the total at 75/100 agreement.

For the record. I never once did I say "don't allow options for challenging content." I said more along the lines of keep it balanced for everyone. Based on the way these guys speak about noobs and easy buttons it's 100% self entitlement behind their agenda. It's so obvious a anyone can figure it out.

They can say all they want about it being fair for everyone but the truth equals nothing when it's purely a conflict of interest with blind bias. They are Jimmy Leets asking for content that they can't win if they harbor Joe pinks in the leet alliances. They're basing the difficulty on current in game enemies and content that Joe pink is already getting excluded from in most cases.

It's really simple to see the logic here. If Joe pink doesn't have the skills based on the views they've projected with this added challenge mode Joe pink doesn't deserve the gear.

Like I said Joe pink doesn't have a chance in hell of getting content like this unless it's based around the gear being in the lower tier pools as well. The whole problem that surrounds this is we can't have that because then Jimmy Leet won't have special advantage to prance around in leet gear and lord over Joe Pinks.

[Komori]

Same, I don't have elitte gear. 0/15 Neo-Nyzul Isle Gear, but I have things like Toci's, Heka's and generally full +2 for almost all seventeen of my current jobs and I at least make a TP set and WS set for each of my jobs. But even for lol monsters like Kaggen and Akvan etc. I've been turned down for not having any empyreans or relics. So if I get turned down for "easy peasy" content for having good gear other than nyzul or empy/relic. Joe/Jane Pink will never, ever get to see the content your asking for.

[Sarick]

Same, I don't have elitte gear. 0/15 Neo-Nyzul Isle Gear, but I have things like Toci's, Heka's and generally full +2 for almost all seventeen of my current jobs and I at least make a TP set and WS set for each of my jobs. But even for lol monsters like Kaggen and Akvan etc. I've been turned down for not having any empyreans or relics. So if I get turned down for "easy peasy" content for having good gear other than nyzul or empy/relic. Joe/Jane Pink will never, ever get to see the content your asking for.

Yup, been trying to say this the last (lost count) pages.

[Shoko]

Same, I don't have elitte gear. 0/15 Neo-Nyzul Isle Gear, but I have things like Toci's, Heka's and generally full +2 for almost all seventeen of my current jobs and I at least make a TP set and WS set for each of my jobs. But even for lol monsters like Kaggen and Akvan etc. I've been turned down for not having any empyreans or relics. So if I get turned down for "easy peasy" content for having good gear other than nyzul or empy/relic. Joe/Jane Pink will never, ever get to see the content your asking for.

If that's the case, Joe Pink needs to step out of the pink and get himself some AF3+1 or AF3+2. It's not hard. On top of that, it's casual content. Also you automatically assume that every shout for VWs such as Kaggen or Akvan requires relic/empy. This is not the case all of the time; simply only how the specific person running the event wishes to set it up.

One of the glaring problems with this thread is that you guys in favor of casuals are only talking in extremes. Arcon has given you many examples, the biggest one mentioning that AF3+2 gear is exceptionally solid for any event.

Edit: Also, Most Non Abyssea-Tahrongi could be considered "casual" content as well. Same with any relic. None of these portions of the game is difficult, only time consuming.

[Komori]

But not every casual will always work towards long-term goals such as a relic or empyrean. I don't have any currently, but I have done considerable progress towards Almace and should have one soon. As BLU is one of my favorite jobs. And I also plan to do a Vere, Twash, Mandau and Ragnarok all in due time but I want to take my time and have fun doing so instead of mindlessly grinding for a week or two for the empys and a few months for said relics.

[Demon6324236]

But not every casual will always work towards long-term goals such as a relic or empyrean. I don't have any currently, but I have done considerable progress towards Almace and should have one soon. As BLU is one of my favorite jobs. And I also plan to do a Vere, Twash, Mandau and Ragnarok all in due time but I want to take my time and have fun doing so instead of mindlessly grinding for a week or two for the empys and a few months for said relics.

Sounds alot like me on this aspect. I could have in all honesty finished my Excalibur for my RDM months ago by just Fell Cleaving, it would have taken me about a good 2~3 weeks at most, instead it has taken me 6 months because I have been going slow with it. Rather than bore myself out of my mine simply for a weapon which I would look at as an annoyance to obtain rather than a powerful tool of death that I would then wield.

[Sarick]

If that's the case, Joe Pink needs to step out of the pink and get himself some AF3+1 or AF3+2. It's not hard. On top of that, it's casual content. Also you automatically assume that every shout for VWs such as Kaggen or Akvan requires relic/empy. This is not the case all of the time; simply only how the specific person running the event wishes to set it up.

You must have missed my post about the Olympics and natural limits on skill mastery being different for every person. They only send Jimmy Leet to the Olympics because his skill sets are near superhuman levels. Jimmy pink doesn't qualify in the same tier. However, They do have Special Olympics for the people with disabilities. These people also get gold medals. This example is a bit extreme but, it is a good representation of the reality between Joe Pink and Jimmy Leet on this game.

There are several factors here that can limit Joe/Jane Pink that go beyond their control. Here are a few.

#1 Personality. (Social compatibility)
#2 Skill or natural limits.
#3 Time limits and/or schedule
#4 Luck

So, You still want to defend that argument, or do you also think the people who are less fortunate unworthy like the people on the other side of the field? They might not openly say it but the distinct wording creates that moral assumption.

[vienne]

You must have missed my post about the Olympics and natural limits on skill mastery being different for every person. They only send Jimmy Leet to the Olympics because his skill sets are near superhuman levels. Jimmy pink doesn't qualify in the same tier. However, They do have Special Olympics for the people with disabilities. These people also get gold medals. This example is a bit extreme but, it is a good representation of the reality between Joe Pink and Jimmy Leet on this game.

There are several factors here that can limit Joe/Jane Pink that go beyond their control. Here are a few.

#1 Personality. (Social compatibility)
#2 Skill or natural limits.
#3 Time limits and/or schedule
#4 Luck

So, You still want to defend that argument, or do you also think the people who are less fortunate unworthy like the people on the other side of the field? They might not openly say it but the distinct wording creates that moral assumption.

I dont see why you compare this with the olympics (and please the special olympics?), thats a form of contest where you dont join if you're not part of the top in that field already, and also there can only be one winner in the olympics. Its not like only one person on a server is entitled to the best gear, everyone can get it if they want. Most of us who are in favour of more challenging content have stated that it should be accessible for all who are willing to make an effort. it sounds like some of you would rather see this game turn into the special olympics where everyone gets a medal at the end of the run.

Bit off topic here cause this thread wasnt about people being pink:
#1 Personality, I dont see what personality has to do with people not getting out of their pink gear. this is an MMO, being social seems like one of the basic aspects of these kind of games. Everyone can get into an ls, or build a group of friends willing to farm some seals so you can get AF3+1.
#2 Skills have very little to do with a game like ff, you learn your JA/MA/WS and know what to use in which situation I dont call that skill thats just paying attention, you fail once maybe next time will be better and learn from your mistakes. Skill in this game can be molded into any form.
#3 Time limits, getting AF3 isnt that time demanding, getting some pieces of AF1 ask for more time to get then AF3+1
#4 Luck... Well you got me there but those people you call elitist also have to work with the luck factor

Conclusion, there is no reason why someone cant get AF3+1. There's a big difference between someone joining an event in pink cause he just finished lvling his job and hasnt come around to get it and people who show up every week in that same pink outfit.

[Shoko]

I dont see why you compare this with the olympics (and please the special olympics?), thats a form of contest where you dont join if you're not part of the top in that field already, and also there can only be one winner in the olympics. Its not like only one person on a server is entitled to the best gear, everyone can get it if they want. Most of us who are in favour of more challenging content have stated that it should be accessible for all who are willing to make an effort. it sounds like some of you would rather see this game turn into the special olympics where everyone gets a medal at the end of the run.

Bit off topic here cause this thread wasnt about people being pink:
#1 Personality, I dont see what personality has to do with people not getting out of their pink gear. this is an MMO, being social seems like one of the basic aspects of these kind of games. Everyone can get into an ls, or build a group of friends willing to farm some seals so you can get AF3+1.
#2 Skills have very little to do with a game like ff, you learn your JA/MA/WS and know what to use in which situation I dont call that skill thats just paying attention, you fail once maybe next time will be better and learn from your mistakes. Skill in this game can be molded into any form.
#3 Time limits, getting AF3 isnt that time demanding, getting some pieces of AF1 ask for more time to get then AF3+1
#4 Luck... Well you got me there but those people you call elitist also have to work with the luck factor

Conclusion, there is no reason why someone cant get AF3+1. There's a big difference between someone joining an event in pink cause he just finished lvling his job and hasnt come around to get it and people who show up every week in that same pink outfit.

This reply sums up my sentiments. There's really no excuse as to why a person in below par gear can't at least get AF3+1. That content has been dummed so far down, you can even quest for it at an extremely slow pace.

Also I feel that if you aren't willing to put in the time and effort into gearing yourself properly, you don't deserve the finer things that the rest of the players are aiming for, plain and simple. Everyone is running the same rat race for the top gear, should they choose to aim for it.

[Komori]

I don't know why peopel don't get +1 at the very least. None of my jobs have been pink since the cap first raised, even my COR12 and RNG7 have full +1 with 3/5 or 2/5 +2 already. All jobs I level have weapons to level into as well, I do the gearing before the job can wear such armor. Why others don't do this, I don't know. It literally takes an hour or two altogether to get a piece of +1 or +2.

[Shoko]

I know of the hyper minority type of casual player that Sarick is referring too. They are the types of players that moan and complain about the general difficulty of events to get top gear, and yet will put in zero effort. They are also more than likely to be super reclusive and won't join LSes devoted to events. These same players won't put in the effort to get the most basic of high level equipment, even if it's for their main job.

They make up just about 1 or 2% of the general FFXI population over all, if not less.

[FrankReynolds]

Random number like 3/4ths are fun.

I won't because it's irrelevant. That's a completely made up number with zero relevance to this topic.

It's not random and it's not irrelevant. It is a lowball estimate as to how many people would be excluded from the drops your requesting. In reality, something harder than what is currently available (because nothing seems rewarding right now apparently) would probably be out of the question for more players than that. Think really hard. How are they goiing to design something that's hard enough to make you feel accomplished, but easy enough that even 1/4 of the rest of the players can finish it too? They can't. The number is just to illustrate the size of the problem. It's not meant to be an exact count of the number of people who can't do imaginary things. I think it's obvious to everyone that I wasn't claiming to have measured the skill level of every player in the game. Your just splitting hairs here.

I look around PJ and I don't even see 1/4 of people wearing all of the best drops from current events, and you want something that even less people can get.



I do that. I perform the best I can, always. It would just be nice to actually be rewarded for it. And the bolded part is wrong. See any one of my fifty previous posts for an explanation.

It's not wrong. This thread is about getting gear that lesser skilled players cannot get. It's not about getting it faster than lesser skilled players. If you don't want lesser skilled players (and by skilled, I mean people who don't have an shell full of relic wielders at their disposal) from getting the gear, then you are debating the wrong person.


The bolded part is wrong, again. And I agree with the rest. I play for achievement, I already do everything what you say. I play to progress my character. I do things that don't give me anything other than the satisfaction of having done them. As I said before, it would simply be nice to actually be rewarded something useful for your efforts. Not everyone shares my mentality and does shit for the hell of it, and despite what you may think I'm very sure that applies to a lot of people because I already know many people this applies to personally. Everyone wants a reward, and speed is rarely an issue. The only difference to now is that skill does not play a big role in many of the events. If there were no rewards at all, no one would be playing, not even you.

I'm not even sure what your arguing for anymore...? It sounds like you like the content already in the game and you don't want gear that normal players can't get. Which is the opposite of what the op is asking for. If all you want is less RNG based crap, just say it, because that is not what the OP wants. He is trying to play innocent, but his motivation is to draw a firm line between who he sees as entitled and the unworthy.

I'm fine with there being more skill involved, but the rewards should be attainable by everyone if they are going to affect performance. You keep repeating that AF+2 is great, but I'm sure that you realize that with every new event they come out with, it gets less and less great in comparison right? How many iterations of new gear before AF3+2 is irrelevant? Bear in mind, that the gear doesn't just have to be "Good enough" to get by, it has to be impressive enough to get an ally to accept you.

Currently, I get crap on every VW run I do because my LOL SAM has a TP Bonus +100 GK and not a masa. I parse everything. Even when I die a lot, I'm never anywhere near the bottom of the parse. A lot of the time I'm at the top. That is the mentality that I want to get away from. The mentality that someone is gimp because "look at their gear, it's gimpy". Gear is not a good way to measure skill, and I don't want it to be used as such. No matter how well they design an event, there will always be a loophole that allows gimps to get the gear. Why not look for a less disruptive reward then?

[Sarick]

I dont see why you compare this with the olympics (and please the special olympics?), thats a form of contest where you dont join if you're not part of the top in that field already, and also there can only be one winner in the olympics. Its not like only one person on a server is entitled to the best gear, everyone can get it if they want. Most of us who are in favour of more challenging content have stated that it should be accessible for all who are willing to make an effort. it sounds like some of you would rather see this game turn into the special olympics where everyone gets a medal at the end of the run.

Bit off topic here cause this thread wasnt about people being pink:
#1 Personality, I dont see what personality has to do with people not getting out of their pink gear. this is an MMO, being social seems like one of the basic aspects of these kind of games. Everyone can get into an ls, or build a group of friends willing to farm some seals so you can get AF3+1.
#2 Skills have very little to do with a game like ff, you learn your JA/MA/WS and know what to use in which situation I dont call that skill thats just paying attention, you fail once maybe next time will be better and learn from your mistakes. Skill in this game can be molded into any form.
#3 Time limits, getting AF3 isnt that time demanding, getting some pieces of AF1 ask for more time to get then AF3+1
#4 Luck... Well you got me there but those people you call elitist also have to work with the luck factor

Conclusion, there is no reason why someone cant get AF3+1. There's a big difference between someone joining an event in pink cause he just finished lvling his job and hasnt come around to get it and people who show up every week in that same pink outfit.

First off Joe Pink is a symbolism. Second the people who are lower tier aren't all about pink gear. It's also the weapons and other limiting factors.

Last and most important. If the special gear isn't such a big deal why would it only be reserved for the hardcore? You see where I'm going here? If they want special gear then on top of it being in the Jimmy Leet pool it should also be in the lesser pool at a lower drop rate. That's about as fair as it gets. Since you call yourself a Joe Pink I find it a bid odd that you'd defend this at all.


OH, I see your Arcons girl, buddy, mule. It explains everything.:rolleyes:

Had to comment on this.

#1 Personality, I dont see what personality has to do with people not getting out of their pink gear.

It has all the relevance in the world. If people don't like you or think poorly of you utility is lost when you ask to participate. Everything in that list I wrote was summed up to it's most minor core. I didn't feel like defining every detail associated with each bullet point. I assumed people reading them would branch out each point at a higher level.

[Sarick]

They make up just about 1 or 2% of the general FFXI population over all, if not less.

(I'm going to respond to this Arcon style in my own words.)

This is irrelevant those are made up numbers.

[Arcon]

But even for lol monsters like Kaggen and Akvan etc. I've been turned down for not having any empyreans or relics. So if I get turned down for "easy peasy" content for having good gear other than nyzul or empy/relic. Joe/Jane Pink will never, ever get to see the content your asking for.


Yup, been trying to say this the last (lost count) pages.

Only one crucial thing you're missing: that's content which isn't cleared with your linkshell but with random people. Random people will always want X of this and Y of that, to make sure their alliance performs as well as it can under the premise that you get a bunch of complete strangers under one leadership to kill a somewhat challenging NM.

However, it's very different when you do it with your own LS. I'm not talking about HNMLS, I'm talking about your everyday casual linkshell. Friends and family. People who will want to play with you regardless of gear. And yes, I cannot disagree that if absolutely everyone in that LS sucks then they will have problems completing that content. But if even one person is skilled in the bunch they can help the others out. They can educate them and show them what to do. And unless you found a group of ~20 completely ignorant and slow people, then you'll get better as a group. I know this because I've been through it more than once. Four times, to be precise. In my very first linkshell, in my second and longest lasting linkshell, in my Dynamis linkshell (which was a very good example of that) and in my current linkshell again.

And from the hundreds of random people I've played with and helped with and tried to teach about the game, even despite meeting some sad displays of lack of mental direction, I've still seen them move ahead and most of them got to participate in events, either with us or other people.


But not every casual will always work towards long-term goals such as a relic or empyrean.

So you complain that someone who doesn't want to invest time in easy to obtain items won't get hard to obtain items?


And I also plan to do a Vere, Twash, Mandau and Ragnarok all in due time but I want to take my time and have fun doing so instead of mindlessly grinding for a week or two for the empys and a few months for said relics.

So you rather mindlessly grind for months with some idle chatter along the way? Personally I don't see the benefit, but to each their own. I don't think this applies to the majority though. The casual people I know who do relics prefer to get them over with as soon as they can. The others are usually not bothered enough to even try seriously and just take it on a case-by-case basis. There's hardly any middle ground.

(Oh and you can still FC with a linkshell. We also did that for many people in our LS.)


Y#1 Personality. (Social compatibility)
#2 Skill or natural limits.
#3 Time limits and/or schedule
#4 Luck

Those factors already limit them, and they always will, in any game ever.


If you don't want lesser skilled players (and by skilled, I mean people who don't have an shell full of relic wielders at their disposal) from getting the gear, then you are debating the wrong person.

I never really argued your opinion and I don't intend to. Most of what you say is dead on. You just seem to think I want content like Legion v5, that absolutely no one except the absolutely most hardcore people are able to clear. Which is not the case. I want reasonably hard content. Content that is challenging yet not out of reach for anyone.


I'm not even sure what your arguing for anymore...? It sounds like you like the content already in the game and you don't want gear that normal players can't get.

I specifically mentioned both of these things, twice. I said I was happy with the game as it is, if it wasn't I wouldn't be playing. Neo-Einherjar and Legion are great additions. The only reason I'm not doing them with my casual shell is not that I don't wanna try it, but because people were less and less interested and I couldn't muster up the people to actually do the events. It was a simple manpower requirement we couldn't match.

Which is why, in my previous post, I said that I'd approve of a scaling mechanism. Something that scales in difficulty with the number of people you bring. That would definitely bring my LS up to that content as well. Sadly though, I don't believe SE can pull that off with any reasonable result.

I'm not sure why any of this comes as a shock to you, this is nothing new. I said all of that in previous posts.


Which is the opposite of what the op is asking for. If all you want is less RNG based crap, just say it, because that is not what the OP wants. He is trying to play innocent, but his motivation is to draw a firm line between who he sees as entitled and the unworthy.

I also said that I don't know the OP or his motivations, and I'm not agreeing with him, I just found his proposal interesting. And I didn't (and still don't) read what you do into his posts. Sure, some of his posts seem a bit overly aggressive, but I'm willing to attribute that to being provoked by mindlessly insulting replies of certain ignorant parties on the other end of the spectrum.


Bear in mind, that the gear doesn't just have to be "Good enough" to get by, it has to be impressive enough to get an ally to accept you.

As I said above, that's the VW mentality. Shout groups of complete strangers. They don't know you, so they don't know how you perform. Having a relic or empyrean does not guarantee you performing well, but it does indicate that you're invested in your job which increases the likelihood that you're a better player. That's why they're asking for those things. This does not apply to a social linkshell, and I do believe that that content should be able to be cleared by social players with practice and patience.


Since you call yourself a Joe Pink I find it a bid odd that you'd defend this at all.

I can tell you why. Because she was in my previous linkshell and is in my current one and she can confirm what I said. Casual people are able to clear hard content if they don't approach it alone. I told you we had almost exclusively casual players (we didn't have any relic players until the end of the 75 era, when one of us got it). Yet we cleared almost everything level 75 had to offer (except HNM, which we didn't even attempt due to competition and spawn hours), with the aforementioned casuals. We did all Dynamis zones, killed everything in sea (except AV) and sky, every ZNM (except PW), Limbus all the time and had several smaller statics for Assaults, Nyzul and Salvage runs. And I know of plenty other linkshells who did similar things.


OH, I see your Arcons girl, buddy, mule. It explains everything.:rolleyes:

You must be really desperate to grasp at straws like that. You'd take any excuse to invalidate our opinions, wouldn't you? Not that it would invalidate them if she was any of that, but I know you'd like to think so. Sadly, I can't find an equally convenient explanation for your lack of logical comprehension.

All she's done is give you an example of exactly what I meant. But it seems you don't deal well with criticism.

[Shoko]

(I'm going to respond to this Arcon style in my own words.)

This is irrelevant those are made up numbers.

Can say it's made up numbers all you want, but the general population of players have at least one or two friends and does stuff with them, at the very least.

[vienne]

OH, I see your Arcons girl, buddy, mule. It explains everything.:rolleyes:

Had to comment on this.


It has all the relevance in the world. If people don't like you or think poorly of you utility is lost when you ask to participate. Everything in that list I wrote was summed up to it's most minor core. I didn't feel like defining every detail associated with each bullet point. I assumed people reading them would branch out each point at a higher level.

I'll comment on your personality thing first, how many times do people have to point it out for you? getting AF3+1 can be done solo (and yes even in pink) or if thats to slow for you, you only need one person to help you to get seals... I mean seriously if the whole server thinks you're a douche it could be a problem but i dont think there are alot of people out there who got blisted by an entire server. 1 friend thats all you need if your personality cant handle that well then maybe an MMO isnt your kind of game and you're better of living in a cave.

And then me being arcon's "girl/buddy/mule" i'm a living breathing person with my own personality and my own thoughts and referring to me as his girl is quite sexist in my eyes. We happen to be in the same ls and we happen to think very differently about many things in this game but on the factor challenge we agree. How low can you go to bring this up in a discussion...? To reply with something Arcon said and which you enjoy quoting too :
This is irrelevant and only shows what kind of person you are, not me. It comes over to me that because I know Arcon I'm not entitled to an opinion and should not voice my thoughts on this forum.

[Sarick]

I can tell you why. Because she was in my previous linkshell and is in my current one and she can confirm what I said.

All she's done is give you an example of exactly what I meant. But it seems you don't deal well with criticism.

I'm not an idiot, she just started posting recently, In your LS and same nation area. As for not dealing with criticism you speak from experience. I used to have some respect for you Arcon but after this topic you threw all that out the window.

Nothing that's being ask on this said of the field is going to topple your grand agenda. You sir can't compromise even the slightest this means you have an issue. Look at all my post I'm up to 88% compatible with your agenda that's not a low F'n number. That leaves a mere 12% we're disagreeing with.

#1 The disagreement is if it's in Jimmy Leet pool it should also be in Joe Pink pool.

#2 If you want special gear and it can't be in the Joe Pink pool then it should be limited to a glow like effect.

#3 Higher rewards for more challenging content meaning that advanced mode has higher drop rate of the same items with inclusion of a 100% drop that's used for high ranking emp upgrades..

This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt you are purely in a green state and trying to be selfish. Seeing as you had to call on friends or alts to defend your side is just pathetic. Everyone who's been against the original poster has made enough arguments to confirm the negatives and the over all agenda behind the request. His attitude is bad his arguments aren't good and he's also unwilling to compromise just like you. Two peas in a pot.

So you are by definition arguing to make things not equal in a sense that only a minority can get them. I understand completely that you want stuff others can't get that make you feel special, you're only human. Please understand this selfish greed is a powerful hard to control human nature to overcome.

[Sarick]

...

Vienne, I'm sorry if you are a real person who might not have been influenced by an outside party. Given the complexity and circumstances apparent in this topic I just can't validate your arguments. The nature of your sudden appearance and views in relation to your linkshell leader etc. are very suspect.

Again, my apology if you wasn't goaded into this topic for nefarious reasons.

[Sarick]

Can say it's made up numbers all you want, but the general population of players have at least one or two friends and does stuff with them, at the very least.

You could've just said minority instead of giving a fake number and I wouldn't have disagreed.

The facts are they made statements in previous post that said they want this content available to everyone. If It's not in Joe Pinks pool then it'll only be in Jimmy leets pool. This by design is constrictive and represents two separate minority groups.

Both Jimmy Leet and Joe Pink are minorities. You can't balance things to be fair for everyone if one side gets special statistically superior equipment that the other can't possibly get.

Jimmy leet (Minority)

Jack Normal (Majority) << This guy is the one that the game should be designed around.

Joe Pink (Minority)

I hope you see what I'm trying to imply here. If you don't get it I'll explain in a later post.

[Arcon]

I'm not an idiot, she just started posting recently, In your LS and same nation area. As for not dealing with criticism you speak from experience. I used to have some respect for you Arcon but after this topic you threw all that out the window.

Her posting made you lose respect for me? Guess that makes sense for you.


Nothing that's being ask on this said of the field is going to topple your grand agenda. You sir can't compromise even the slightest this means you have an issue. Look at all my post I'm up to 88% compatible with your agenda that's not a low F'n number. That leaves a mere 12% we're disagreeing with.

Stop with the useless numbers. And don't use the excuse that the other side is also using them, it wasn't me, so don't pull this one on me. I'm not compromising because no compromise is offered. And I assume that no comprise is offered because you still don't understand what I want. Every post again, over and over, you keep repeating some stuff that I never said or asked for and when I try to tell you why you completely ignore it and just repeat the same garbage again.


#1 The disagreement is if it's in Jimmy Leet pool it should also be in Joe Pink pool.

If he works for it, sure.


#2 If you want special gear and it can't be in the Joe Pink pool then it should be limited to a glow like effect.

It should be in everyone's pool. And I already said that I don't particularly mind that either, but that that's not a solution, because it does not address our problem. Trophy items are just for showing off, and I don't care for that (despite what you like to proclaim).


#3 Higher rewards for more challenging content meaning that advanced mode has higher drop rate of the same items with inclusion of a 100% drop that's used for high ranking emp upgrades..

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. What do empyrean weapons have to do with this? Or are you saying that any challenging mob should also drop empyrean upgrade items? Seems a bit groundless, but whatever. I already explained that obtaining something faster is no reward at all. It does not introduce nor require skill.

As for the current system, since that was brought up earlier, no matter how skilled you are, you won't be able to kill Orthrus much faster than the next guy who just uses a weapon skill on a timer.


This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt you are purely in a green state and trying to be selfish. Seeing as you had to call on friends or alts to defend your side is just pathetic. Everyone who's been against the original poster has made enough arguments to confirm the negatives and the over all agenda behind the request. His attitude is bad his arguments aren't good and he's also unwilling to compromise just like you. Two peas in a pot.

I never called on anyone to do anything, because I didn't need to. Everything I said was spot on and even until now you've done nothing at all to disprove my arguments against you or your agenda. What's pathetic is that you're resorting to calling me a fraud by attacking my credibility (with no evidence) instead of my arguments. That is an indication that you've run out of things to say.


So you are by definition arguing to make things not equal in a sense that only a minority can get them. I understand completely that you want stuff others can't get that make you feel special, you're only human. Please understand this selfish greed is a powerful hard to control human nature to overcome.

You understand nothing. You have the comprehension capacity of a three year old. You don't even know how to argue properly. You throw around words that make you sound smart with no context and inappropriate usage just for the sake of sounding educated. Do you feel that that will carry more weight than sound arguments themselves? In this paragraph alone you have demonstrated that you have no idea what "by definition" means, what "equality" is and that you didn't grasp a thing of what I've been trying to convey. I specifically stated repeatedly that I do not want to exclude anyone and that everyone should be able to access and the content and get a chance to win it. I said that the content should not require best of gear but strategy and tactics instead. I said that it should scale with the number of members, so people can go with their friends if they can't find a full alliance or don't feel like they'll be able to join an endgame LS for this purpose. You addressed none of these things. You just spout groundless statements about how it is unjust and how I'm just being elitist and selfish, with no reasons, no explanation and no evidence. And it's getting really old.

[vienne]

I'm not an idiot, she just started posting recently, In your LS and same nation area. As for not dealing with criticism you speak from experience. I used to have some respect for you Arcon but after this topic you threw all that out the window.


This is the last thing I'm posting in this thread and please if any mod reads this, just lock it. We'll agree to disagree. some people want challenging content others want to turn this game into cuddlebearland where everyone gets the same lollypop.
But please you're being paranoid and you may apologise how much you want you're being very insulting towards me and towards arcon saying that he asks people to post for him. If it makes you feel any better we had a good laugh in the ls with your accusation of me being Arc's mule. I hope you'll remember me next time when I post in a thread and he does too and we have a different opinion.

[Sarick]

Her posting made you lose respect for me? Guess that makes sense for you.

No, I think you missed something as usual.


Stop with the useless numbers.

Those numbers represent how close we are in agreement. This is something that I explained and they do represent something relevant to the topic. It shows how close our opinions are on the topic. Its a point by point match system that separates key elements of an argument. One reason someone wouldn't understand this would be because everything is seen in a binary perspective. A binary perspective means there is no percentage it's like a data bit on or off with no in between. That's what those numbers represented.


If he works for it, sure.

Again you miss the point and assume that Joe pink can compete on that level. I explained this already that everyone has a natural limit to skill. Under my setup where its available in all pools Joe Pink could WORK FOR IT. Under the setup where only advance players get it Joe Pink doesn't have a chance in hell.


It should be in everyone's pool. And I already said that I don't particularly mind that either, but that that's not a solution, because it does not address our problem. Trophy items are just for showing off, and I don't care for that (despite what you like to proclaim).

Then why didn't you just say that "It should be in everyone's pool?" This single statement is the compromise. Show me where you said this exact sentence in an old post edited before today? I think I can read through my previous post where I pointed this out and you gave it the finger when you said "This is not enough." If you can find that then I'll apologize if not then hopefully you can see the fault isn't on my end.

As always I make an honest attempt to bring ideas to the table. I don't blindly disagree. I try and find solutions or compromises. When one side won't budge for reasons that seem dubious I only dig the trench deeper and prep the ammo.


I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. What do empyrean weapons have to do with this? Or are you saying that any challenging mob should also drop empyrean upgrade items? Seems a bit groundless, but whatever. I already explained that obtaining something faster is no reward at all. It does not introduce nor require skill.

This is where you missed something, the increased challenge mode would offer this. Meaning the mob is tougher. I really don't see how you could misinterpret this Frank explained it why back when he introduced Joe Pink with the dynamis example.

If you're able to make $100,000 a year vs someone who can make $20,000 a year at a different job with vastly different skill sets, how is this not rewarding? The person making 20,000 is stuck at a lower standard of living because their limits. You on the other hand make five times more and can upgrade to a higher standard of living. Maybe you're a lawyer who enjoys his job and they're a school teacher who enjoys teaching young children. Both can be rewarding at their own level but one is at a higher income bracket.


As for the current system, since that was brought up earlier, no matter how skilled you are, you won't be able to kill Orthrus much faster than the next guy who just uses a weapon skill on a timer.

I never said anything about speed killing. Oh, you must mean that leet gear won't effect the kill speed. Irrelevant it's about both sides getting the items in their pools at a different rate from the tiered enemy. A solution was to give a useful upgrade items that dropped 100% for the added difficulty. Also speaking of speed killing, If the enemy is higher challenge it won't be as easy to take down so that unqualifies the last sentence in the above statement you made.


I never called on anyone to do anything, because I didn't need to. Everything I said was spot on and even until now you've done nothing at all to disprove my arguments against you or your agenda. What's pathetic is that you're resorting to calling me a fraud by attacking my credibility (with no evidence) instead of my arguments.

No evidence? Does god exist? If you say yes or no and I say "Prove it" I doubt you'll convince me either direction if I want to disagree just to disagree. I think this is known as Occam's razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor) because it shifts the burden of proof. I'm sure you don't need to hit the link.


You understand nothing. You have the comprehension capacity of a three year old. You don't even know how to argue properly. You throw around words that make you sound smart with no context and inappropriate usage just for the sake of sounding educated.

What are you talking about? I don't use educated words. Comprehension? What, about arguing makes you think there is only one side with right or wrong ways? I'm sure if you walk out on the street and some guy wants to beat your head into the ground or something of that nature you'll say "wait I need to take off my glasses first." There isn't much difference when people are truly arguing about something. Stuff is said that can sound mean or intimidating.

I'm sure you're aware of that arguing has this effect because the above quote proves you're no saint. As for the words I use this is the way I talk normally it isn't like I'm looking for them in a dictionary this is what pops in my head. I never said I was smart so why would you bring that up? Let me assume it's just your imagination playing tricks on you.


I specifically stated repeatedly that I do not want to exclude anyone and that everyone should be able to access and the content and get a chance to win it.

Then why have you been arguing with me this whole time? Did you feel the need to defend yourself on something you agreed with? I wouldn't pose these types of questions or make assumptions if I didn't see reason for them.


You addressed none of these things. You just spout groundless statements about how it is unjust and how I'm just being elitist and selfish, with no reasons, no explanation and no evidence. And it's getting really old.

You've put nothing on the table since we've started arguing. Nothing, to address the issues only to say that's not enough or I want more? What do you expect here obedience or straight up compliance? The only thing you've done is pushed the fact that you don't like the current system, suggestions or my way of saying how I feel about the them. I don't dismiss my methods of arguing but, I'm confident enough to admit their shortcomings. Seriously, you've offered nothing to help solve the issues you've been arguing about. The only motivation I've seen from you is constant retaliative retorts equal to my methods. So please save me from the innocent act as it's also getting really old.

In conclusion: Since we've come to an agreement that Joe Pink can get it in his reduced drop rate leet item in the easy pool. I don't see why you'd continue arguing with me at this point unless, you say something constrictive, irrelevant or contradictive to the agreement. Also, if you like arguing with me continue pushing my buttons. I love defending something I feel strongly about when it comes to balance.

[Rohelius]

You all fail because you play this antique...

Some people still find 1985 Mario on NES hard some find it easy to beat in 4min. i would never brag about beating any old tittle like you guys do, its quite funny lol

[Demon6324236]

You all fail because you play this antique...

Some people still find 1985 Mario on NES hard some find it easy to beat in 4min. i would never brag about beating any old tittle like you guys do, its quite funny lol

Slight difference, Mario doesn't get updated with new content on a monthly basis and have armys of people playing it together.

[Arcon]

Again you miss the point and assume that Joe pink can compete on that level. I explained this already that everyone has a natural limit to skill. Under my setup where its available in all pools Joe Pink could WORK FOR IT. Under the setup where only advance players get it Joe Pink doesn't have a chance in hell.

Again you miss the point that it is not about competition. That's already why you Olympic games comparison failed. Just because someone gets gold here does not mean that it precludes others from getting it as well. About the pool thing..


Then why didn't you just say that "It should be in everyone's pool?" This single statement is the compromise. Show me where you said this exact sentence in an old post edited before today? I think I can read through my previous post where I pointed this out and you gave it the finger when you said "This is not enough." If you can find that then I'll apologize if not then hopefully you can see the fault isn't on my end.

You misunderstood what I meant, although I admit my wording was ambiguous. I forgot we were talking about the OP's idea and was talking about skill requirements in general. What I meant was that the elite pool should also be accessible to casual players, not that every reward should drop off every difficulty level. As in, every casual should be able to work up to that and be able to clear it with practice and patience.

What do you mean by natural skill limit? Are you saying some people are so bad that they can't improve to a point that they'd be useful to a group? If that's true I've yet to meet someone like that and I've met a lot of people. Unless, of course, you're talking about someone with a mental disability, but if you think the game should be designed around them I'm done arguing with you.


This is where you missed something, the increased challenge mode would offer this. Meaning the mob is tougher. I really don't see how you could misinterpret this Frank explained it why back when he introduced Joe Pink with the dynamis example.

And even back then I said why that was a bad example. First of all, whether I get a relic in two or four months makes no difference to me. I'm not in a rush. I play this game casually, it's a pastime. Secondly, it does not even require any skills at all, because you can just make the money from other sources that require less skill and give more money (like FC parties, for example). I never farmed Dyna at all and I have a relic too, and I got it faster than most Dynamis farmers.


If you're able to make $100,000 a year vs someone who can make $20,000 a year at a different job with vastly different skill sets, how is this not rewarding?

Because money is not what I'm looking for. It's compensation for my time and effort, not a reward. I don't look forward to do a job for the money, I do it begrudgingly waiting to get paid. That's the first reason why it doesn't compare to this situation.

The second is that it's not about "more" or "less" rewarding, but about the kind of reward. I never argued that it isn't "more" rewarding, but I told you specifically that that wasn't what I was looking for. It's about quality over quantity. Skill should be rewarded in an unique way, not just more of the same. Why doesn't every event just reward us moat carps, more or less depending on the difficulty. And we could rank items and make them redeemable with a certain number of carps. That's essentially what you're suggesting.


No evidence? Does god exist? If you say yes or no and I say "Prove it" I doubt you'll convince me either direction if I want to disagree just to disagree. I think this is known as Occam's razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor) because it shifts the burden of proof. I'm sure you don't need to hit the link.

That's exactly why you shouldn't be making these kinds of accusations. Pointless throwing around claims that you can't back up at all.


Then why have you been arguing with me this whole time? Did you feel the need to defend yourself on something you agreed with? I wouldn't pose these types of questions or make assumptions if I didn't see reason for them.

We don't agree, and I don't think you understood what I meant. You're suggesting:
Tier 1: 10% drop rate of desired item (noobs go here)
Tier 2: 50% drop rate of desired item (made for average people)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of desired item (made for the elitist scum)

What I'm suggesting is the following:
Tier 1: 100% drop rate of LQ item (requires attendance)
Tier 2: 100% drop rate of NQ item (requires patience and strategy)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of HQ item (requires preparation, coordination and effort)

The reason why you assume my idea is bad is because you think some people will never be able to complete tier 3. Why do you say that? Have you seen the T3 already, even though it's just in my head so far? How can you qualify that statement without knowing the actual difficulty?

I already told why one bad player is no reason this wouldn't work: because the group can even it out. I already said it should not require perfect gear. I also said it should not be unforgiving (like Legion currently is because of the time limit). No one mistake should kill the run. It should be something that's accessible and possible to beat even with average players if they play well. Sure, they wouldn't be able to clear it every time, but I see no issue with that (and neither do you, because that's precisely your argument).

When I say it should reward skill you jumped at the conclusion that it should be absolutely impossible to beat if you don't do everything perfectly, all the time. That was an assumption on your part. I told you what seems like a million times by now that I don't want to exclude anyone from getting a shot at the win. Only that it should require effort. It's ok to completely wipe the first ten attempts. Make smaller rewards along the way. Like Legion when clearing the first wave. That way a group can watch their own progress as they build their skills and gain practice in that event. That is how people learn to play better, and it's the only way.

A constant stream of mediocre content will not produce skilled players, no matter their potential.


You've put nothing on the table since we've started arguing. Nothing, to address the issues only to say that's not enough or I want more? What do you expect here obedience or straight up compliance? The only thing you've done is pushed the fact that you don't like the current system, suggestions or my way of saying how I feel about the them.

Wrong. Again. I told you many times before, in this very thread, that I do like the current system. I am happy with the way the game is right now. Unlike you, it would seem, because currently it's already the way I suggested it, only without the different difficulty levels. Instead there's content exclusively catered to high-level players. What I'm basically suggesting is to introduce lower difficulty Legion tiers which people could use to gain skill and experience in that particular event, because right now it's designed to exclude untrained/inexperienced players. And that's not because it's insanely difficult, but because it's expensive and unforgiving, which means people don't get the chance to just go in and get experience with it, they don't get to improve with practice at all. They either have a high-level group to tackle the content with already or they don't. That's what this suggestion would remedy.

[Sarick]

Again you miss the point that it is not about competition. That's already why you Olympic games comparison failed. Just because someone gets gold here does not mean that it precludes others from getting it as well. About the pool thing.

You try really really hard to undermined any examples or alternatives no matter how clear or what they're based on if it doesn't suit your bias. Take off the glasses. I understand the comparison my friends do as well, it's just you and the opposition that can't grasp it.


You misunderstood what I meant, although I admit my wording was ambiguous. I forgot we were talking about the OP's idea and was talking about skill requirements in general. What I meant was that the elite pool should also be accessible to casual players, not that every reward should drop off every difficulty level. As in, every casual should be able to work up to that and be able to clear it with practice and patience.

I didn't misunderstand anything here, you're trying to shift fault on me. Let's make this clear you're the one who wrote it not me. I assume when someone says "Everyone" It means everyone. Don't try and weasel your way out of a mistake that's clearly your fault or try and pin it on me again. You keep saying one thing then contradicting yourself in an effort to (I assume) confuse people.

Let me explain something. In Japan there is a saying about demons, their weaknesses and, how to defend yourself from them. It go's something like this "If you know the demons name you have power over it." For clarification I'm referring about the tactic not you directly. Maybe you assume I'm arguing wrong. I just recognize the what's going on and take advantage of it. :rolleyes:


What do you mean by natural skill limit? Are you saying some people are so bad that they can't improve to a point that they'd be useful to a group? If that's true I've yet to meet someone like that and I've met a lot of people. Unless, of course, you're talking about someone with a mental disability, but if you think the game should be designed around them I'm done arguing with you.

I'm saying limiting factors in a broad scope of things not just a high degree of mental disability that you painted a picture of. My guess is you over read my Olympics example to extremes. I did say something along the lines of "lesser extent" when I posted that. As for the scope, I made a mini list of multiple things that can limit Joe pink. Again, you missed something I wrote in a previous post. I don't like repeating this list because each point branchs out into sub factors that also need explained in detail. Please go recap.

Secondly, Did you see the post I made a few pages back that had Jimmy Leet as a minority, Jack Normal as a majority and Joe Pink as a minority. I thin placed an arrow toward Jack Normal and said something along with it. I'll let you recap since you missed/ignored that as well.

Another, thing I posted in a previous comment was related to the easy button, too weak, low quality mode being for wins, maybe atmas and percepts. I didn't misdirect this because it would still be available if Joe Pink had earned the win on the weakest setting for some item.

Do you remember the update before last SE added the ability to make some items that could be rebuilt later with the inclusion that the player had to have access to the content? Well, I assumed that everyone would get that access under the lower tier setup anyway if needed just getting the base wins. The reason for my reactions are because the multiple times people said that only casual or greater would have access.

Judging by your outlook you missed these fine details when I explained the balance way back. I don't condemn you for failing to recognize this because it's not something the average person would see above the surface when looking into deep water. I also didn't go into details here because I assumed you'd already known this.


And even back then I said why that was a bad example. First of all, whether I get a relic in two or four months makes no difference to me. I'm not in a rush. I play this game casually, it's a pastime. Secondly, it does not even require any skills at all, because you can just make the money from other sources that require less skill and give more money (like FC parties, for example). I never farmed Dyna at all and I have a relic too, and I got it faster than most Dynamis farmers.

Because money is not what I'm looking for. It's compensation for my time and effort, not a reward. I don't look forward to do a job for the money, I do it begrudgingly waiting to get paid. That's the first reason why it doesn't compare to this situation.

The second is that it's not about "more" or "less" rewarding, but about the kind of reward. I never argued that it isn't "more" rewarding, but I told you specifically that that wasn't what I was looking for. It's about quality over quantity. Skill should be rewarded in an unique way, not just more of the same. Why doesn't every event just reward us moat carps, more or less depending on the difficulty. And we could rank items and make them redeemable with a certain number of carps. That's essentially what you're suggesting.

It is not a bad example unless you have a skewed perception on what everyone wants. Again you missed something. I commented on this in the last post where the lawyer and teacher both at different levels can find things rewarding in different ways yet be on a different scale of income. You went directly after the money as the subject not the means to how rewarding it is or is not.

In that respect, you're unqualified to represent this outside your own personal interest. Since you can't be satisfied by it you deem it completely irrelevant as a solution and can't grasp differing levels of satisfaction/reward I doubt you can grasp balance. After all, this solution isn't just about you. It's very obvious this is another conflict of interest and it's skewed by personal bias on your part.

The purpose was to be a general encouragement that represents as many players as possible without adding the extra baggage of new special content.


That's exactly why you shouldn't be making these kinds of accusations. Pointless throwing around claims that you can't back up at all.

This again, If I didn't have something that could be proven/or disproved I'll go with the most straight forward reasoning. Good or bad this has won wars saved lives etc. Granted this type of logic isn't perfect but in general everyone makes these choices every day and they don't even realize it.

I have examples like the one above when you contradict yourself then change views blaming it on my misinterpretation. That confirms at least one of these pointless accusations has some merit. The others are left totally at the discretion of the reader. Given the post pool it wouldn't be difficult to ascertain this. Does this upset you?, if you are innocent I'd assume the evidence would be in your favor when the readers determine this.


We don't agree, and I don't think you understood what I meant. You're suggesting:
Tier 1: 10% drop rate of desired item (noobs go here)
Tier 2: 50% drop rate of desired item (made for average people)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of desired item (made for the elitist scum)

What I'm suggesting is the following:
Tier 1: 100% drop rate of LQ item (requires attendance)
Tier 2: 100% drop rate of NQ item (requires patience and strategy)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of HQ item (requires preparation, coordination and effort)

The reason why you assume my idea is bad is because you think some people will never be able to complete tier 3. Why do you say that? Have you seen the T3 already, even though it's just in my head so far? How can you qualify that statement without knowing the actual difficulty?

Oh here we go again, Now it's not everyone but only Jimmy Leet that has access to HQ. Can't you even get your own understanding it check before you post back to back contradictions? All this does is confuse confuse people. As I stated earlier in this post this can be used as a tactic. Not sure if it's intentional and give you the benefit of doubt on this portion.

How can I qualify? I can based this on my experience and the reviews I've seen from the community. It's common knowledge that SE is notorious for making content that is unsuitable for everyone. They try and find an in between hardcore and casual and sometimes fail hard. If you're trying to invalid my reasoning behind this you'll fall short in doing so. Everyone who has any experience with SE/FFXI knows this.


I already told why one bad player is no reason this wouldn't work: because the group can even it out. I already said it should not require perfect gear. I also said it should not be unforgiving (like Legion currently is because of the time limit). No one mistake should kill the run. It should be something that's accessible and possible to beat even with average players if they play well. Sure, they wouldn't be able to clear it every time, but I see no issue with that (and neither do you, because that's precisely your argument).

When I say it should reward skill you jumped at the conclusion that it should be absolutely impossible to beat if you don't do everything perfectly, all the time. That was an assumption on your part. I told you what seems like a million times by now that I don't want to exclude anyone from getting a shot at the win. Only that it should require effort. It's ok to completely wipe the first ten attempts. Make smaller rewards along the way. Like Legion when clearing the first wave. That way a group can watch their own progress as they build their skills and gain practice in that event. That is how people learn to play better, and it's the only way.

A constant stream of mediocre content will not produce skilled players, no matter their potential.

You keep thinking this way, the evidence has shown that if content is increased players have been known to optimize setups or even outright cheat in order to win. It's also shown that if given the option a majority will choose the easiest route to do things this includes but is not limited to special setups, skill sets or previous relationships.


Wrong. Again. I told you many times before, in this very thread, that I do like the current system. I am happy with the way the game is right now. Unlike you, it would seem, because currently it's already the way I suggested it, only without the different difficulty levels. Instead there's content exclusively catered to high-level players. What I'm basically suggesting is to introduce lower difficulty Legion tiers which people could use to gain skill and experience in that particular event, because right now it's designed to exclude untrained/inexperienced players. And that's not because it's insanely difficult, but because it's expensive and unforgiving, which means people don't get the chance to just go in and get experience with it, they don't get to improve with practice at all. They either have a high-level group to tackle the content with already or they don't. That's what this suggestion would remedy.

Yet you offer no solutions other then training wheel courses. I just had to laugh so hard my stomach contents found their way out. What I suggested was alternative routes. It's aways easy teach an old dog new tricks, wrong. Like I said countless times everyone has their own natural ability.

If you try and force something like this then it creates an environment where one or both sides will not be satisfied with. This could cause players to quit out of frustration or boredom. It's rather simple make things equal on a different scale. Just because you have all the time in the world and/or patience not everyone is build the same way.

[Arcon]

You try really really hard to undermined any examples or alternatives no matter how clear or what they're based on if it doesn't suit your bias. Take off the glasses. I understand the comparison my friends do as well, it's just you and the opposition that can't grasp it.

This is the response I've come to expect of you. Whenever I argue something, I present a reason. You don't. Just like now, you just state that it's my fault for not understanding, without any reason for why I might be wrong.


I didn't misunderstand anything, you're trying to shift fault on me. Let's make this clear you're the one who wrote it not me. I assume when someone says "Everyone" It means everyone. Don't try and weasel your way out of a mistake that's clearly your fault or try and pin it on me again. You keep saying one thing then contradicting yourself in an effort to (I assume) confuse people.

Liar. I said apologetically that my wording was ambiguous, thus taking the blame off you. I never faulted you for this. I have no trouble faulting you for the many mistakes you're making in your leaps of logic and groundless accusations. In general you're not very intelligent and stubborn, arrogant, dishonest, and show a few other characteristics that indicate you're a bad human being, but I never once tried to put this on you, not then, not now. I know when I'm at fault, and that was mine, as I said in the previous post already.


I'm saying limiting factors in a broad scope of things not just a high degree of mental disability that you painted a picture of. My guess is you over read my Olympics example to extremes. I did say something along the lines of "lesser extent" when I posted that. As for the scope, I made a mini list of multiple things that can limit Joe pink.

Don't have to recap, just link me to it, because I don't remember any of it. All you said was stuff like "no gear", "no friends" and other general statements like those, every single one of which I responded to.


Secondly, Did you see the post I made a few pages back that had Jimmy Leet as a minority, Jack Normal as a majority and Joe Pink as a minority. I thin placed an arrow toward Jack Normal and said something along with it. I'll let you recap since you missed/ignored that as well.

No, I neither missed nor ignored it, I basically said that very same thing in my last post (yes, the very same that you quoted, and you quoted that same part as well).


Do you remember the update before last SE added the ability to make some items that could be rebuilt later with the inclusion that the player had to have access to the content? Well, I assumed that everyone would get that access under the lower tier setup anyway just getting the base wins. The reason for my reaction because commented multiple times that only casual or greater would have access.

I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. This may also be my fault, because I'm tired of having to read everything into your vague and inarticulate posts.


Oh here we go again, Now it's not everyone but only Jimmy Leet that has access to HQ. Can't you even get your own understanding it check before you post back to back contradictions? All this does is confuse confuse people. As I stated earlier in this post this can be used as a tactic. Not sure if it's intentional and give you the benefit of doubt on this portion.

You're confused. Let me help you: in everyone's pool does not equate that it should drop for each difficulty. Even if it only drops in the highest difficulty pool, if everyone gets a chance at doing that it can still be in everyone's pool. Feel smarter?


You keep thinking this way, the evidence has shown that if content is increased players have been known to optimize setups or even outright cheat in order to win. It's also shown that if given the option a majority will choose the easiest route to do things this includes but is not limited to special setups, skill sets or previous relationships.

Duh? Not sure what your point is. That's why I said I want harder content, so it cannot be cleared by just idling along for a given duration and then collecting your price. Or do you condone that behavior? Or are you saying that because SE have demonstrated incompetence in that regard in the past they should just stop trying?


Yet you offer no solutions other then training wheel courses. I just had to laugh so hard my stomach contents found their way out. What I suggested was alternative routes. YOU think you can teach an old dog new tricks. Like I said countless times everyone has their own natural ability.

What's wrong with the training wheel course? What you suggested was to dumb everything down so that people don't even have to try to get good gear. Because that's all I'm asking.

[Sarick]

I understand everything, just read it all most of it I don't feel like responding to. I did Think of a few things.

You mentioned evidence again.

Let's recap.

Baseless accusations.

I wouldn't feel the need to say these things without some merit. The readers who've read most of the topic can ascertain their own opinions based around the content in it. If you feel threatened about this then you can plea the filth otherwise don't set yourself up for it.

Doesn't know the content

You must not be up to date or don't read about updates. If you win a VW and a leet item drops that you already have you can accept it as a partial item that can be sold and later re-assembled. Anyone can get this item without fighting the enemy 100's of times if they have the clears. They can just choose to buy the parts.

Hardcore content.

Harder content that people can't win, I think I already explained SE's shortcomings here when creating difficulty tiers. Only a minority would have access the others would hate the content and choose to avoid it. I can't stress this enough if you read up on what the community says you'll see this is standard knowledge.

So I'm Liar?

You said this.

It should be in everyone's pool. And I already said that I don't particularly mind that either, but that that's not a solution, because it does not address our problem. Trophy items are just for showing off, and I don't care for that (despite what you like to proclaim).

Then followed up with this.

You misunderstood what I meant, although I admit my wording was ambiguous. I forgot we were talking about the OP's idea and was talking about skill requirements in general. What I meant was that the elite pool should also be accessible to casual players, not that every reward should drop off every difficulty level. As in, every casual should be able to work up to that and be able to clear it with practice and patience.

Finially ending with this.

We don't agree, and I don't think you understood what I meant. You're suggesting:
Tier 1: 10% drop rate of desired item (noobs go here)
Tier 2: 50% drop rate of desired item (made for average people)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of desired item (made for the elitist scum)

What I'm suggesting is the following:
Tier 1: 100% drop rate of LQ item (requires attendance)
Tier 2: 100% drop rate of NQ item (requires patience and strategy)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of HQ item (requires preparation, coordination and effort)

No, you said it was ambiguous then followed up with something completely opposite of the definition for "everyone." The word everyone isn't an ambiguous term. It's not left up to interpretation. You see where the first quote says everyone. The second part excuses everything that you said then the last part puts the HQ item in only one tier?

It's right there in front of you are con!

The person who doesn't know the subject history.

Sorry, If you want to argue with me about opinions, relevance or past post you need to know the subject matter/material. Even if I lack grammar skills (I've openly admitted this so no foul here). If you can't keep up with the topic then find someone who can for you like Vinnie.

On a final note I still don't see anything other then a training wheel approach. You think this will teach people to be better? I don't see this doing any good if you give out items of lower tier so Jimmy leet can lord over others. I also recognize that you still want Jimmy Leet items to be given to the hardcore only group without compromise.

This is a major turn off for your argument. I thought you said everyone and was about to call it quits then you came back on and posted something opposite. Luckly I checked back.

[Plasticleg]

this page is like a tale of two cities. could you guys duke it out somewhere where someone will care?

[Sarick]

this page is like a tale of two cities. could you guys duke it out somewhere where someone will care?


Kudos for pointing this out. Hits like button.:o

Oh, and your name made me laugh when I read it.

[Arcon]

Doesn't know the content

You must not be up to date or don't read about updates. If you win a VW and a leet item drops that you already have you can accept it as a partial item that can be sold and later re-assembled. Anyone can get this item without fighting the enemy 100's of times if they have the clears. They can just choose to buy the parts.

I'm very well aware of this, only your poor choice of words did not make it apparent that that's what you meant. No idea how it relates to anything at all, though.


Hardcore content.

Harder content that people can't win, I think I already explained SE's shortcomings here when creating difficulty tiers. Only a minority would have access the others would hate the content and choose to avoid it. I can't stress this enough if you read up on what the community says you'll see this is standard knowledge.

I know it very well, I don't need to read anything. I even said that myself in this very thread. I do play the game, just so you know. If SE already made it perfectly, there would be no reason to suggest it. That's why these forums are here for. And as I said before, if they failed at it before, should they just give up on it and dumb everything down until no one fails that content anymore?


So I'm Liar?

No, you said it was ambiguous then followed up with something completely opposite of the definition for "everyone." The word everyone isn't an ambiguous term. It's not left up to interpretation.

See my explanation above. You are a liar.


this page is like a tale of two cities. could you guys duke it out somewhere where someone will care?

While it's gotten a bit personal at times, I never felt like it was off-topic. Did you? Why should we go somewhere else?

[Sarick]

I'm very well aware of this, only your poor choice of words did not make it apparent that that's what you meant. No idea how it relates to anything at all, though.


See my explanation above. You are a liar.

You need to edit, I updated my previous post to give evidence.

[Arcon]

No, you said it was ambiguous then followed up with something completely opposite of the definition for "everyone." The word everyone isn't an ambiguous term. It's not left up to interpretation. You see where the first quote says everyone. The second part excuses everything that you said then the last part puts the HQ item in only one tier?

I already explained all of that here:

[..] in everyone's pool does not equate that it should drop for each difficulty. Even if it only drops in the highest difficulty pool, if everyone gets a chance at doing that it can still be in everyone's pool.

Again, just for you:
Elite pool = HQ pool
Elite pool accessible to everyone = everyone gets the chance to play for the HQ pool

And that was my exact wording. Everyone should be able to play the hard content. Hard does not mean exclusive. But it should be challenging. That's why people who aren't that skilled with endgame content can practice on lower difficulties. Once they have that down, they can move up and tackle the challenging content. Note that challenging also doesn't imply unfair. In the end, everyone should be able to access and win the challenging content. Hence everyone gets a shot at the reward.

That is not the opposite of everyone. It's everyone. Stop lying.

[Sarick]

I already explained all of that here:


Again, just for you:
Elite pool = HQ pool
Elite pool accessible to everyone = everyone gets the chance to play for the HQ pool

And that was my exact wording. Everyone should be able to play the hard content. Hard does not mean exclusive. But it should be challenging. That's why people who aren't that skilled with endgame content can practice on lower difficulties. Once they have that down, they can move up and tackle the challenging content. Note that challenging also doesn't imply unfair. In the end, everyone should be able to access and win the challenging content. Hence everyone gets a shot at the reward.

That is not the opposite of everyone. It's everyone. Stop lying.

What are you smoking.

Person A Is a hard core player

Person B Is A Normal Casual player

Person C Is A below average player.

Your first quote sums up as:

You think everyone should get a chance at the items in their pools, and you don't like the idea of people prancing around in Trophy gear. It doesn't solve things.

Person A, Person B and Person C would get it.

Your second quote sums up to:

Oh, crap I made a mistake, I didn't want all items available to everyone Just the hardcore and casuals. My fault for not explaining that everyone just means skill level.

Person A and Person B would get it. Person C is unworthy and needs to train harder.

Your third quote sums up to:

Here's your idea here's mine. I Don't like yours and disagree. You created two tables depicting your setup. In this same quote you say you've been suggesting this all along. It list all three tiers with separate contents one for each tier. What a minute this isn't the same thing as the first and second quotes.

It shows Only Person A getting the HQ item. Everyone else gets sloppy seconds.

Conclusion: Anyone who reads this would see the difference in opinion changing over time. It's not baseless you've been flip flopping the entire topic saying one thing and meaning another or changing it once you gain a little ground. I've argued with you before on the storage system.

If you didn't care about the gear anyway you wouldn't be arguing, back pedaling or trying to invalidate the very words you created. Most people have stopped reading this. Not only have you forgotten previous post but lack the understanding of features that where already added. Don't get me wrong you did say something along the lines of it was your fault for not knowing. It still doesn't excuse or the things I've pointed out. Trying to discredit me even when I link to stuff just increases my credibility. Those are your unedited quotes in the previous post not mine.

[Arcon]

Your second quote sums up to:

Oh, crap I made a mistake, I didn't want all items available to everyone Just the hardcore and casuals. My fault for not explaining that everyone just means skill level.

Person A and Person B would get it. Person C is unworthy and needs to train harder.

Liar. That's not what my second post says, that's not what I ever said. I explained it twice now.


What I meant was that the elite pool should also be accessible to casual players, not that every reward should drop off every difficulty level. As in, every casual should be able to work up to that and be able to clear it with practice and patience.

I say explicitely that the elite pool should be accessible to everyone. Anyone who reads this as me wanting to exclude people from certain items is braindamaged.

[Sarick]

Liar. That's not what my second post says, that's not what I ever said. I explained it twice now.

I say explicitely that the elite pool should be accessible to everyone. Anyone who reads this as me wanting to exclude people from certain items is braindamaged.

I left you same breathing room when I made the last post. a lot was lost in the rewrite (Token expired). I think most of what I wrote was retained.

Unfortunately, based on your guidelines you've further clarified the same elitist only garbage. You said you didn't want. You implied that you want content available for everyone, This sounds good on paper until you posted the flip-flop arguments above.

This further unqualified you from creating an unbiased solution while confirming my ~baseless accusations~. You've definitely hit a home run here Arcon compromising your position. You've literally implied only elites deserve special content. How?, Using this as a base you want to force Joe Pink into the same tier content.

Let's go back to the Olympics comment I made a few post back. Under your terms EVERYONE can attempt to get to the Olympics but only a select few will make it. This only confirms you're after making hardcore content to suit your agenda. It's an elitist agenda meant to include only the upper echelon of the player base.

This flat excludes lower tier content by nature despite it's availability. After all as I stated previously Joe Pink doesn't have a chance in hell. The proposed table you wrote up includes content tiers to gives the impression everyone is included. The reality is nothing you've listed gives Joe pink a fighting chance for the items in higher tier content. My solution does and is balanced more across the board.

You invalidate your argument by subverting all tiers. They don't have equal access to the same equipment. This confirms my accusation of flip-flopping, personal bias and an elitist agenda. You can sit at whatever device your posting on and say "I want tiered content available to everyone" but in reality only a minority can might beat the higher tier content for special items. This is a jaded attitude that doesn't apply all factors behind the nature of tiered content. Again I stress this, Joe Pink doesn't have a chance in hell.

[Slaxx]

I think the point Arcon is trying to make (and has made pretty clearly to me) is that "Joe Pink" (and I'm already sick of that term) can clear the low tier content for the low tier gear so he will no longer be "Joe Pink". Using that gear and the skills obtained through clearing the low tier he will then be better able to succeed at the higher tier content and have a chance at the better rewards it offers.

Sarick at this point you seem to be ignoring the meat of what Arcon is saying and taking small points out of context and ignoring the overall system he is proposing.

Arcon please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in my assesment of what you are proposing.

[Arcon]

Arcon please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in my assesment of what you are proposing.

No, you're quite correct, and I feel most people got it as well. I did post it about fifteen times so far, so not really surprising. Some disagree, and that's ok too. But he's just posting to have the last word now.

I'll let him have it, this argument has lost all of its amusement for me. He's trying so hard to discredit me that he makes leaps of judgment and states one groundless assumption after another.

One final thing to think about, Sarick, is how insulting you are to everyone who's not able to participate in hardcore content right now. You're basically telling them that if they're not hardcore players they'll never improve and always remain insignificant lowly players who will have to settle for whatever scraps they're able to pick up. That alone shows enough of your attitude as well as your faith in the community.


[..] "Joe Pink" (and I'm already sick of that term) [..]

It's worth to stop arguing any further with just to not have to read that again.

[Komori]

To me, your both right on certain things. Not every Joe/Jane pink will stay that way, we were all "noobs" at one point, so if some can raise to the top then so can the rest of us. But not everyone aspires to reach the top, some are content to just do whatever or the easiest content and then leave the game. And others don't mind sitting in the middle, neither being above par or below it. And then of course you have the few that want to dominate this game. I know people who I've personally offered to get +1 for and they refused, saying Aurore/Perle/Teal did just fine.

But I've also seen people go from being Aurore/Perle/Teal and build up to the best gear and multiple empys and relics. We all play this game for different reasons and have different opinions and wants.

Bottom line is; looking at the first post having seven likes and the third having fifty-six. Right now, you few are in the minority and I don't think it's honestly worth SE's time to incoporate something that only a small percentage would take advantage of and the rest wouldn't bother. Most people are still busy working on clearing Nyzul Uncharted, Legion and all of the new revamped content and preparing for the new content that's coming, I suggest "hardcores" work on all the current content and wait to see New Salvage and Seekers also before asking for this.

[Sarick]

I think the point Arcon is trying to make (and has made pretty clearly to me) is that "Joe Pink" (and I'm already sick of that term) can clear the low tier content for the low tier gear so he will no longer be "Joe Pink". Using that gear and the skills obtained through clearing the low tier he will then be better able to succeed at the higher tier content and have a chance at the better rewards it offers.

Sarick at this point you seem to be ignoring the meat of what Arcon is saying and taking small points out of context and ignoring the overall system he is proposing.

NO, He wants the same thing the OP wants and Is trying to validate higher tier content with the assumption that everyone has a chance. I made it clear about personal limitations. You can't place content in the game and expect everyone to rank up into superhuman skill. Consider all the objections from the community when content is overdone. You forget the past where players got sick in game fighting a BOSS that only SE knew secrets to beating. This is the HARDCORE content level people need to be made aware of.

[Arcon]

Bottom line is; looking at the first post having seven likes and the third having fifty-six.

I believe that many of them are just afraid that the result will be another Neo-Nyzul. Neo-Nyzul fits the description of what's suggested if you look at it superficially, as it has different rewards based on different floors you can clear. But I'd tell you this, if the event itself wasn't quite this luck-dependant and had a few annoying time wasters removed it would be a lot more popular and you'd see many people trying to clear it.

It would be a matter of adjusting it to a fair level, but if that was done correctly, I say it would be very popular among the playerbase. Imagine a Neo-Nyzul where you'd get a piece guaranteed depending on the floor you cleared even if you overshoot (like getting a guaranteed F80 piece if you get to F85). Now imagine that same Nyzul with some luck factors removed (for example no lamp floors and constant 7 floor jumps). I'd bet you a relic that people would do the shit out of it. And even if they didn't make it to the top, they'd still get rewarded depending on their performance. Despite that, they still wouldn't lose motivation to try if they saw that F100 was within their reach. This, in turn, would give them many chances to practice the content. They'd get better at communication, identifying the right mobs, positioning and pathing, even the random fights within the event. I know this for a fact because the same was true with regular Nyzul at 75, and I've been in enough parties to notice. You could definitely identify a Nyzul newbie and tell him apart from the guy who was 0/40 on Askar Gambieras.

It's just a matter of adjusting the event so it actually is doable.

[Sarick]

One final thing to think about, Sarick, is how insulting you are to everyone who's not able to participate in hardcore content right now. You're basically telling them that if they're not hardcore players they'll never improve and always remain insignificant lowly players who will have to settle for whatever scraps they're able to pick up. That alone shows enough of your attitude as well as your faith in the community.

I'm not insulting those players, I'm trying to set a bar where it possible to complete at lower tier with the same rewards at different drop rates. If they can't reach the skill set levels they have a lower tier they can compete on without needing resorting to frustrate themselves or deal with elitist for the same gear.

No one has fun by saying "I give up F this game!" If, they can learn this fine and dandy but for the love of all that holy don't say shit that this shit or scales to all players at the highest level without realizing the highest levels will always be another minority.

It's clear you want more challenging content and there are multiple reasons both spoken and unspoken behind this. The thing that pushes buttons is the tiers seem to be setup as method to create gear that one can prance around in and say look at me I beat leet boss.

You stated that you don't care about this and wouldn't mind it being in the other pools. Even if that's not what you want it still doesn't excuse that this system of yours is harsh for people who can't confirm to the standards of Jimmy leet.

I attack your credibility because, you're insulting people by implying they don't deserve access to some items or gear even if they can earn it through multiple paths. This isn't good for anyone and separates the community into haves and have nots. The community where players MUST meet the hardcore level of skill or give up.

I if remember currently I read that you're happy with the games current state, people with the capacity to get things done easily are often happy with the status quo. It then comes down to wanting higher rewards for bigger challenges. Everyone can agree to this at some level unless, it tries to create an illusion that one person is worth more than another. This is what your system does.

[Arcon]

I attack your credibility because, you're insulting people by implying they don't deserve access to some items or gear even if they can earn it through multiple paths. This isn't good for anyone and separates the community into haves and have nots. The community where players MUST meet the hardcore level of skill or give up.

Liar. I wasn't implying that.


I if remember currently I read that you're happy with the games current state, people with the capacity to get things done easily are often happy with the status quo. It then comes down to wanting higher rewards for bigger challenges. Everyone can agree to this at some level unless, it tries to create an illusion that one person is worth more than another. This is what your system does.

You're mixing things up. I said that I am happy, for myself with the current game. I can already achieve these things and am doing so. But I don't think this is what it should be like. That's why I support difficulty tiers.

Currently: only one difficulty, hard.
Suggestion: add more and easier difficulties.

Here's the thing you don't get (well, one of them): I already have gear that sets me apart from other players. If that was what I wanted, why would I suggest this at all? If I wanted the system to remain that way, I wouldn't care for threads like these. I'd just sit back and relax while SE dishes out more content that I can clear but others can't. You accusing me of wanting to stand out is completely paradoxical, because I already do. I can live with the status quo, because it favors me. But that's not what I think it should be like. This suggestion would make events more accessible and help people get better at content that they currently cannot clear, or even attempt.

You probably won't believe me anyway, but I'll still say it: the main reason why I want these things added is because I could actually go back to my social LS for events like Legion and Neo-Einherjar. Currently we don't stand a chance there because we only have a few people interested in it and nowhere near enough to efficiently tackle these events. And here's another thing: many people who would help are discouraged from trying because of the difficulty. But with a system that offers several difficulty settings we could be able to get a feel for the event, coordinate our efforts to get more people motivated. And we'd be able to get gear that helps us with the final challenge along the way.

[Sarick]

To me, your both right on certain things. Not every Joe/Jane pink will stay that way, we were all "noobs" at one point, so if some can raise to the top then so can the rest of us. But not everyone aspires to reach the top, some are content to just do whatever or the easiest content and then leave the game. And others don't mind sitting in the middle, neither being above par or below it. And then of course you have the few that want to dominate this game. I know people who I've personally offered to get +1 for and they refused, saying Aurore/Perle/Teal did just fine.

But I've also seen people go from being Aurore/Perle/Teal and build up to the best gear and multiple empys and relics. We all play this game for different reasons and have different opinions and wants.

Bottom line is; looking at the first post having seven likes and the third having fifty-six. Right now, you few are in the minority and I don't think it's honestly worth SE's time to incoporate something that only a small percentage would take advantage of and the rest wouldn't bother. Most people are still busy working on clearing Nyzul Uncharted, Legion and all of the new revamped content and preparing for the new content that's coming, I suggest "hardcores" work on all the current content and wait to see New Salvage and Seekers also before asking for this.

I can't argue with this at all it's clear cut to the point and an excellent post. Kudo's and a 100% like. I wish it was simple to explain the minority with just those numbers. It's unfortunate that sometimes it takes more then a good point to make someone recognize this.

When arguing with Ar con about moral implications or personal bias his stance doesn't recognize these things. He overlooks or has forgotten the real history and/or common knowledge about the community thats available to everyone. :confused:

There's no doubt, in my mind his views represent the same rant posed in the original post but is trying to make it more appealing to people in his messages. I may be wrong but the effort to defend this topic against the votes speaks for itself.

[Arcon]

When arguing with Ar con about moral implications or personal bias his stance doesn't recognize these things. He overlooks or has forgotten the real history and/or common knowledge about the community thats available to everyone. :confused:

You have yet to tell me why you think I'm biased, or even what I'm biased towards. You also have yet to tell me how anything I suggested is immoral. It seems you've completely stepped away from trying to make a counterpoint to the suggestion and put all your efforts into your personal crusade against me. And now you just completely agree with anything people say that isn't supporting me, even when you don't realize what they're talking about.


There's no doubt, in my mind his views represent the same rant posed in the original post but is trying to make it more appealing to people in his messages. I may be wrong but the effort to defend this topic against the votes speaks for itself.

I'm not defending it against the votes, I'm defending it against groundless propaganda. If an idea is presented and the masses dislike it, I can live with that. If some idiot comes along and starts to spout bullshit wherever they can to taint the people arguing in either party and/or the idea presented, I'll do what I can to call them out on it. Fortunately you've moved on from defending your position to trying to insult me with petty attempts. Since I feel no need to defend myself against your accusations, that means there's less work for me involved.

[Sarick]

If an idea is presented and the masses dislike it, I can live with that.

By responding in just does that make your points any more valid? You didn't bring anything to the table or offer something useful to compromise with the topic either. It appeared as a devote attempt toward a single direction. It also appeared as though the masses didn't exist or you simply didn't care about them.


If some idiot comes along and starts to spout bullshit wherever they can to taint the people arguing in either party and/or the idea presented, I'll do what I can to call them out on it. Fortunately you've moved on from defending your position to trying to insult me with petty attempts. Since I feel no need to defend myself against your accusations, that means there's less work for me involved.

I don't deny this, but keep in mind it was intentional to find what makes you tick, so the idiot part is a misunderstanding on your part. I know exactly what I'm doing to test your resolve.:cool:


I believe that many of them are just afraid that the result will be another Neo-Nyzul. Neo-Nyzul fits the description of what's suggested if you look at it superficially, as it has different rewards based on different floors you can clear. But I'd tell you this, if the event itself wasn't quite this luck-dependant and had a few annoying time wasters removed it would be a lot more popular and you'd see many people trying to clear it.

I agree with this partly people are afraid. History confirms this. Why?, It'd still have the luck a factor and exclude some players who try as they might manage to fail after a substantial amount of attempts. Just trying to beat the floors should reward players with performance points they can use toward the best gear. This is another alternative to having HQ gear drop in all pools.

Performance points would still be based around their performance meaning they'd learn from the process but encouraged to keep working at it. I've been trying to say this all along to imply sense fairness in the previous system. Players could team up with average players the way abysea content is setup and eventually get the gear they want.


It would be a matter of adjusting it to a fair level, but if that was done correctly, I say it would be very popular among the playerbase. Imagine a Neo-Nyzul where you'd get a piece guaranteed depending on the floor you cleared even if you overshoot (like getting a guaranteed F80 piece if you get to F85). Now imagine that same Nyzul with some luck factors removed (for example no lamp floors and constant 7 floor jumps). I'd bet you a relic that people would do the shit out of it.

And even if they didn't make it to the top, they'd still get rewarded depending on their performance. Despite that, they still wouldn't lose motivation to try if they saw that F100 was within their reach. This, in turn, would give them many chances to practice the content.

They'd get better at communication, identifying the right mobs, positioning and pathing, even the random fights within the event. I know this for a fact because the same was true with regular Nyzul at 75, and I've been in enough parties to notice. You could definitely identify a Nyzul newbie and tell him apart from the guy who was 0/40 on Askar Gambieras.

I disagree with placing fodder gear into the game. It just doesn't generate interest you think it does. Have you seen the lower tiers of Neo Nyzul gear? It's trash and worthless in comparison to gear of the same level. The only gear thats useful is from the highest floors. The rest is literally absolute junk.

Under my revised suggestion everyone would still have a chance at the higher tier stuff for trying. Players who compete at the higher level and win would be rewarded with 100% and/or 100% items to be used upgrades for related content. Players who compete and fail still are rewarded in a different way. In my previous example I was for a drop bonus for higher tiers.

If they feel the content is to hard they can opt for a lower tier with a penalty in their performance allowances. Likewise, If they think they can do better or want a higher challenge they can choose a higher tier and be rewarded with greater performance allowances. This allows everyone a chance at the same content and doesn't exclude anyone.


It's just a matter of adjusting the event so it actually is doable.

I strongly disagree. it should also about creating motivation for players to participate in higher teirs. Simply put motivating them with performance allowances that they can use to purchase the high quality gear. This would make it available to everyone.

I want to hear why you would disagree any with this. I've written the core aspects and painted a picture as best I could without insulting you, implying personal bias or attacking your credibility. If you have a better solution or compromise lets hear it.

[Komori]

I understand what you meant Arcon. But I can assure you, SE will never make an event even of this difficulty caliber and it being 100% unless your hitting the very tippy top. But since they would be super buffing this piece of equipment since this event would be harder than anything currently ingame then it's pretty much a given they'd have to give it suberb stats to get anyone to do it, that's the only reason people do Neo Nyzul. Because it's gear pretty much outdoes anything else we have right now. And because of these stats; SE would more than likely in return make it a very small drop rate and we would be in the same boat as before.

[Sarick]

I understand what you meant Arcon. But I can assure you, SE will never make an event even of this difficulty caliber and it being 100% unless your hitting the very tippy top. But since they would be super buffing this piece of equipment since this event would be harder than anything currently ingame then it's pretty much a given they'd have to give it suberb stats to get anyone to do it, that's the only reason people do Neo Nyzul. Because it's gear pretty much outdoes anything else we have right now. And because of these stats; SE would more than likely in return make it a very small drop rate and we would be in the same boat as before.

Did you like my last system, in the post I last created? I didn't see a like so I'm assuming you overlooked my post or found it's content of low quality. Yet again I agree with you here on scales of challenge/difficulty. You haven't been directly arguing against me so I'm unsure of your opinion/suggestion in my recent reply to Arcon.

I want you to help validate if my revised solution seems doable and fair to everyone. It's much like relic purchases but non-transferable. ;)

[Arcon]

By responding in just does that make your points any more valid? You didn't bring anything to the table or offer something useful to compromise with the topic either. It appeared as a devote attempt toward a single direction. It also appeared as though the masses didn't exist or you simply didn't care about them.

I didn't offer a compromise because you've done nothing to convince me that this idea isn't perfectly valid. And the masses aren't arguing against me, you are. The masses are silently ignoring us both.


I don't deny this, but keep in mind it was intentional to find what makes you tick, so the idiot part is a misunderstanding on your part. I know exactly what I'm doing to test your resolve.:cool:

"I know I was being stupid, but I did it on purpose to test if you would realize I was being stupid!"


I disagree with placing fodder gear into the game. It just doesn't generate interest you think it does. Have you seen the lower tiers of Neo Nyzul gear? It's trash and worthless in comparison to gear of the same level. The only gear thats useful is from the highest floors. The rest is literally absolute junk.

You're completely out of your mind. The lower tier Nyzul gear is still good. Great even. So what if it doesn't compare to the full reward? If it did, why would anyone try to do it? Shoot for the top, but be awarded for what you achieve.


Under my revised suggestion everyone would still have a chance at the higher tier stuff for trying. Players who compete at the higher level and win would be rewarded with 100% and/or 100% items to be used upgrades for related content. Players who compete and fail still are rewarded in a different way. In my previous example I was for a drop bonus for higher tiers.


I want to hear why you would disagree any with this. I've written the core aspects and painted a picture as best I could without insulting you, implying personal bias or attacking your credibility. If you have a better solution or compromise lets hear it.

Your "revised suggestion" is the same crap that you've been trying to force-feed down my throat for the better part of a week. And I already said on the first few pages why it didn't compare. And several more times after that. It's the same "patience should substitute skill" philosophy you've been preaching all along in this thread, which is precisely what I took an issue with. It's nothing new. Zero compromise, the one thing you've been accusing me of for about twenty pages now.


I understand what you meant Arcon. But I can assure you, SE will never make an event even of this difficulty caliber and it being 100% unless your hitting the very tippy top. But since they would be super buffing this piece of equipment since this event would be harder than anything currently ingame then it's pretty much a given they'd have to give it suberb stats to get anyone to do it, that's the only reason people do Neo Nyzul. Because it's gear pretty much outdoes anything else we have right now. And because of these stats; SE would more than likely in return make it a very small drop rate and we would be in the same boat as before.

Why are you so sure? And even if you were, why shouldn't we still suggest it? If they don't listen, whatever, it'll be the same as it is now. On the off chance they do, it could possibly be something great.

[FrankReynolds]

You're completely out of your mind. The lower tier Nyzul gear is still good. Great even. So what if it doesn't compare to the full reward? If it did, why would anyone try to do it? Shoot for the top, but be awarded for what you achieve.


Be honest. Have you ever seen anyone wearing the gear from any floor besides 100? I haven't. As a matter of fact, I just had to look it up to be sure I would even recognize it if I did.

[Arcon]

Be honest. Have you ever seen anyone wearing the gear from any floor besides 100?

Never. Because the event is not designed to put out that gear. If it worked like I suggested a while ago, lots of people would be wearing it. Right now, everyone wants to shoot for the top, so they aim at F100. But if they get 99, which is already impressive, they get nothing out of it. That's why I said it should reward people depending on how they perform. Giving them a F80 win if they get to 90+ (even without aiming for 80 specifically) would fix that. Then people would still shoot for 100, but would also be rewarded depending on how good they did.

[Sarick]

I didn't offer a compromise because you've done nothing to convince me that this idea isn't perfectly valid. And the masses aren't arguing against me, you are. The masses are silently ignoring us both.

The only thing you done is put nothing on the table but another easy button alternative. Everything you've been saying up to this point just leads me deeper into the belief that you don't want to compromise anything. It's the simplest solution to the evidence at hand. As for the masses they don't need to argue with you. The masses speak when they don't use the content to it's full potential.


You're completely out of your mind. The lower tier Nyzul gear is still good. Great even. So what if it doesn't compare to the full reward? If it did, why would anyone try to do it? Shoot for the top, but be awarded for what you achieve.

There is better stuff players can use. Frank supports my stance on this and posed a unique argument. Your denial only exist because you have no other defense. It's the community who ultimately decides if they think it's good or not not you or me. I think it's total junk and I have every right to say this.

On a further note I didn't see any of the lower tier equipment in your equip history. I wonder why...


Your "revised suggestion" is the same crap that you've been trying to force-feed down my throat for the better part of a week. And I already said on the first few pages why it didn't compare. And several more times after that. It's the same "patience should substitute skill" philosophy you've been preaching all along in this thread, which is precisely what I took an issue with. It's nothing new. Zero compromise, the one thing you've been accusing me of for about twenty pages now.

What's the same?, whats different?, Whats your solution? why is it your solution? why? why? why? You still haven't given anything other then obscure personal bias. The masses can't work with that, and the developers can't work with it either.

Again, you're wrong. It's not the same thing. The first was totally depended on the luck of higher drop rates at higher tiers. The revision is based around performance assessment points. Totally different in that respect. The only part that wasn't modified is the fact that all players could eventually get it through effort. The burden of proof shifts in my favor if you can't prove otherwise.

The fact remains you want it one way and one way only, "It's my way or the highway." You can't even create a plausible alternative yet, you argue about it like their are better methods. If everyone lived by that logic we'd still be living in the stone ages. People would complain or argue about things and never attempt to find solutions for them. It's very destructive path. It fails in so many ways.

Come up with a compromise that puts the items in all tiers without "force feeding" your personal bias. You know the 'If you can't beat it you don't deserve it, GTFO" mentality.' I urge you to at least try to show a little bit of ingenuity and creativeness. I really doubt you have the skills or patience to do this. If you can't come up with an alternative compromise then you should just try harder. Are you up to the challenge or do you not have the skill set to be creative?

If you say no, then you're hypocrite. Why, I offered you a challenge. If we base this around your methodology people who can't conform don't deserve reward. The reward is recognition that you're capable of doing more then just disagreeing. In this case if you can't put solutions on the table you should follow your on beliefs and consider more training. Shoot for the top, but be awarded for what you achieve.


Why are you so sure? And even if you were, why shouldn't we still suggest it? If they don't listen, whatever, it'll be the same as it is now. On the off chance they do, it could possibly be something great.

I'll bring up a famous quote of relevance by George Santayana. He said "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." I think the games hardcore history speaks for itself.

[Demon6324236]

Never. Because the event is not designed to put out that gear. If it worked like I suggested a while ago, lots of people would be wearing it. Right now, everyone wants to shoot for the top, so they aim at F100. But if they get 99, which is already impressive, they get nothing out of it. That's why I said it should reward people depending on how they perform. Giving them a F80 win if they get to 90+ (even without aiming for 80 specifically) would fix that. Then people would still shoot for 100, but would also be rewarded depending on how good they did.

I have seen some people wearing the +2~3 gear but its very rare to see. In either case I plan to do my static I am working on weirdly I suppose, because my plan is to gear everyone up to a good standard, then try to hit 80 3~4 runs for some +3 gear. Heavy DD body is still good for WSs given the +WS%, while the legs are still a nice STP/Haste piece, and the hands are not to bad for WSs.

[Sarick]

Never. Because the event is not designed to put out that gear. If it worked like I suggested a while ago, lots of people would be wearing it. Right now, everyone wants to shoot for the top, so they aim at F100. But if they get 99, which is already impressive, they get nothing out of it. That's why I said it should reward people depending on how they perform. Giving them a F80 win if they get to 90+ (even without aiming for 80 specifically) would fix that. Then people would still shoot for 100, but would also be rewarded depending on how good they did.

Again, you think nothing of tiered difficulty to suit everyone. The people who want rewards don't deserve it if they can't find a way to get it by hook or crook. It still doesn't give people who fail a chance to get the same gear.

Also, in your example you suggest dumbing down the artificial difficulty in the the event making it easier. I don't know how you can say I what more challenging content on one hand. Then on the other hand say these events should be dumbed down"

Yes, it'll make people do the event more because the artificial difficulty level is decreased. It won't create a new higher tier, it'll just be an easier content requirement everyone to compete in.

Maybe you do have some creativity after all. Anything else you want to suggest since the solutions you offered where universal easy buttons for everyone.

[Demon6324236]

Again, you think nothing of tiered difficulty to suit everyone only. The people who want rewards don't deserve it if they can't find a way to get it by hook or crook. It still doesn't give people who fail a chance to get the same gear.

Also, in your example it ask to dumb down the event making it easier. I don't know how you can say I what more challenging content on one hand. Then on the other hand say these events need dumbed down"

Yes, it'll make people do the event more because the artificial difficulty level is decreased. It won't create a higher tier it'll just be the same requirement everyone to complete it in the dumbed down version.

Maybe you do have some creativity after all. Anything else you want to suggest since you've offered a universal easy button for everyone?

Ok easy way to say things. Neo-Nyzul did what is being asked for except it has way to much luck involved, if the majority of the event was skill based it could work. 5 sets of gear, they get better as they go up. If you are a better player and have better gear you have a better chance at the stronger gear. However the gear below it is more attainable and will also help you to get closer to the highest tier.

What he said also does not make it easier, it makes it so when you do a run to attempt floor 100 you do not end up with nothing for your attempt, even VW got that part right, you always get something, even if only logs. NNI basically is a big roll of the die with some luck mixed in, but if you set your goal at 80, and get an amazing run with 10 minutes left and could make those 20 floors, you just got screwed. The boss floors should be a KI, and the ability to drop a piece of gear, as they are now. However at the same time they should be somewhat a bonus or a difficult bump in the road, you should not have to stop there to get any reward at all.

Thats not to say this idea is without flaw though. I myself have alot of friends, but very few who I world well with that are well geared enough to do NNI. Now I could go find a better group with better gear, but I wouldn't work as well with them most likely, and groups like that are prone to break sooner than a group of friends who know eachother. These are just a few problems with the idea, but it would work well if done right, NNI is to luck based, but if alot of that luck were replaced with skill, I would see it as what is being asked for. A piece of content with hard difficulty, has tiered rewards based on the skill of the group, everyone can set a goal and try to get it, then use the gear from it to climb higher if they so choose, and overall it would work to make players strive to attain their gear and better themselves.

I wont lie, I haven't read most of the last 5 pages as its seemed like a stupid/pointless argument between 2 people, but I wanted to through my opinion in on what seems to be asked for through my quick gaze of posts, and saw something NNI related, which made me think of how close it seems to be to the goal I think is trying to be achieved.

[Sarick]

He just wants to reduce the artificial difficulty generated by a luck based system. I'm perfectly aware of that. Don't you think the artificial difficulty is part of what makes the content harder? If it isn't making it content easier by removing these flaws then how is it staying the same difficulty level?

If SE removed those randoms then they'd have to introduce new challenges to keep the difficulty/time sink they want.

[detlef]

Nobody takes +2/+3 etc Nyzul gear seriously. Not even SE, which is why you can't even store it.

[Sarick]

Although, I've been arguing with Arcon some time now I do agree with some of his points. I disagree completely with his recent statement that the lower gear is worthwhile. We agree almost entirely with the exception of alternate routes players can receive the same HQ gear. I wanted a back door available for when players fail or don't manage to progress. I explained that there could be many factors that aren't easily recognizable. He was firmly dead set against it.

When I looked at this view I saw it much like SE's version of skilling up guard pre-update. It was setup so the only way you could get skill is by successful guards. This meant in order to skill up one had to go though extreme measures just to reach the goal of capped skill. This is much like how some of the systems are setup today. The way I see Arcon fixing things was he wanting to just raise the skill up rate for each success. Under this method we'd still need to successfully block to get rewarded. It just wasn't enough even if every single block gave a tiny reward.

The last update brought about a change where not only do you get rewarded for succeeding but also in the failures as a lower skill up reward. This would be the performance points I mentioned. In the long run. if the backup system had this subset to encourage players they wouldn't be forced to one path, they'd always get rewarded through a backdoor. They'd gain experience both in participation skill and long term goals that would build over time. The natural real life limitations would be less of an issue under this setup.

On an ending note, It's actually pointless to explain this if the benefits go through deef ears. Anyway, Arcon already conceded in an earlier response to some extent so I'm content with that.

[Demon6324236]

He just wants to reduce the artificial difficulty generated by a luck based system.Oh, well then I completely agree with him.
I'm perfectly aware of that.You rather have items go to lucky people while effort is made to be pointless?
Don't you think the artificial difficulty is part of what makes the content harder?If by harder you mean more annoying, yes. I do not like my life being decided by a roll of a die, I rather my skill effect what I get.
If it isn't making it content easier by removing these flaws then how is it staying the same difficulty level?Make Nyzul harder by skill, and take less luck, you will not have an easier event, might have a harder event if done right, but at least it wouldn't be a giant die roll every day with skill just being a little better chance at rolling a good number.
If SE removed those randoms then they'd have to introduce new challenges to keep the difficulty/time sink they want.I would love new challenges, I would hate more luck based things. I have no idea who would like to spam Qilin 500+ times for a single dagger, that does not seem enjoyable to me in any way shape or form. Luck is good, but there is a limit, and this game has passed that limit a few times, VW & NNI are great examples.

[Sarick]

Oh, well then I completely agree with him. You rather have items go to lucky people while effort is made to be pointless? If by harder you mean more annoying, yes. I do not like my life being decided by a roll of a die, I rather my skill effect what I get.

It's pointless arguing with you on these aspects as I agree with them too.


Make Nyzul harder by skill, and take less luck, you will not have an easier event, might have a harder event if done right, but at least it wouldn't be a giant die roll every day with skill just being a little better chance at rolling a good number. I would love new challenges, I would hate more luck based things.

It's pointless arguing with you on these aspects as I agree with them as well. I only disagreed that that gear rewards for lower tiers was junk. I thought I added something along the lines "If they remove the artificial difficulty they'll have to make it harder another way." I'm not sure if I said this because it's late and I'm tired.


I have no idea who would like to spam Qilin 500+ times for a single dagger, that does not seem enjoyable to me in any way shape or form. Luck is good, but there is a limit, and this game has passed that limit a few times, VW & NNI are great examples.

I agree here to a large extent, what I've been fighting with him over is the right for a back door where failed attempts had some rewards for effort. Nothing you've posted above I won't argue with because, I agree with it. That quote of mine implies "He ONLY wants this" it meant other paths for getting the same rewards are non-negotiable.

Do, you feel better now knowing that I'm not against fixing the system only improving on what people already want?

[Arcon]

There is better stuff players can use. Frank supports my stance on this and posed a unique argument. Your denial only exist because you have no other defense. It's the community who ultimately decides if they think it's good or not not you or me. I think it's total junk and I have every right to say this.

On a further note I didn't see any of the lower tier equipment in your equip history. I wonder why...

See everything I said in my last post.


Come up with a compromise that puts the items in all tiers without "force feeding" your personal bias.

Why would I come up with a compromise with that when that is precisely what I do not want? It's as if someone suggested to add healing magic to a BRD and you said "You can't even think of a compromise with no healing magic for a BRD!", it's an entirely pointless argument. It's not a compromise if the very thing want is not being considered. You want me to give up my idea entirely in favor of yours. Fuck that.


You know the 'If you can't beat it you don't deserve it, GTFO" mentality.' I urge you to at least try to show a little bit of ingenuity and creativeness. I really doubt you have the skills or patience to do this. If you can't come up with an alternative compromise then you should just try harder. Are you up to the challenge or do you not have the skill set to be creative?

I'm as creative as a loaf of bread. I won't even pretend otherwise. Yet the example I gave in my previous post about Nyzul is already a good start.


If you say no, then you're hypocrite. Why, I offered you a challenge. If we base this around your methodology people who can't conform don't deserve reward.

I don't want a reward from you. Unless that reward is you shutting the hell up already. Regardless, see my last example.


I'll bring up a famous quote of relevance by George Santayana. He said "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." I think the games hardcore history speaks for itself.

Famous yes, relevant no. Here's a non-famous but relevant quote: "Don't make up shit that isn't related to the discussion." Another thing you don't seem to understand is that my solution would not make things worse, only better. Now we have hardcore-mode only. With this suggestion we'd have hardcore-mode but also lower difficulty settings. So why exactly is this bad? Right now we already have content that distinguishes people, and you seem to be convinced that SE is unable to change, so we'll keep having hardcore content that regular players can't clear, right? So what exactly is your point? "No, this is a bad idea because it'll be like it already is only slightly better"?


Again, you think nothing of tiered difficulty to suit everyone only. The people who want rewards don't deserve it if they can't find a way to get it by hook or crook. It still doesn't give people who fail a chance to get the same gear.

Fucking yes. People who fail should not get the gear. That's the entire point. Don't tell me you missed that while arguing for the entire thread?


Also, in your example you suggest dumbing down the artificial difficulty in the the event making it easier. I don't know how you can say I what more challenging content on one hand. Then on the other hand say these events should be dumbed down"

Fucking yes, again. Artificial difficulty and challenge are not the same thing. Artificial difficulty is giving a bunny outside of San d'Oria a TP move that deals 500 damage. That's not a challenge though, it's unfair and entirely luck-based, the only way to win against that is to hope they don't use it. There's zero challenge involved. Challenge would be to give them TP moves that you can survive but with a certain strategy. Use conal moves with a long enough charge time for example. That would at least involve some skill to survive. What I suggested was reducing the artificial difficulty, not the actual challenge. Do you think Nyzul would be easy to clear with what I suggested? You'd still better bring 4 good DDs and Enhancing Magic capped SCH or you'll likely still fail.


That quote of mine implies "He ONLY wants this" it meant other paths for getting the same rewards are non-negotiable.

Wrong, I don't mind other paths at all. I had no issue with them adding king abjurations to Einherjar, because it was still a challenge to get to him and to fight him. What I don't want is a substantially easier way (of course one way will always be the easier one and the other the harder one, but as long as they're comparable in difficulty I still don't mind). I think skill should reward you in a unique way. And I also think the game should motivate people to play with skill. That's about the only things we disagree upon.

[Sarick]

See everything I said in my last post.

yes. People who fail should not get the gear. That's the entire point. Don't tell me you missed that while arguing for the entire thread? Cussing removed from original quote because it valuates the terms of service agreement I agreed to.

So it does come down to you being an evil little fart that doesn't want people to have what you can get or the fact they might not have the capability to get. Humm, I wonder where my baseless accusations come from. In your opinion people who might not have the skill sets don't deserve the same equipment you have even if they bust their asses trying for it. I don't see this as very moral for yourself or community. :(

These are elitist, uncaring, screw the little guy attitudes. It's exactly what I've been getting out of you this whole time. It's the same agenda the original poster wanted. You say you want things to be fixed, you can't fix them yourself. You can't even except that people you deem unworthy should still get the same gear if they work toward it! These are some of the reasons I've been calling you a fraud. :mad:


I had no issue with them adding king abjurations to Einherjar, because it was still a challenge to get to him and to fight him. What I don't want is a substantially easier way (of course one way will always be the easier one and the other the harder one, but as long as they're comparable in difficulty I still don't mind). I think skill should reward you in a unique way. And I also think the game should motivate people to play with skill. That's about the only things we disagree upon.

Motivation, doesn't include frustrating people because they're placed in full time hard mode. This isn't how a tier system works. Players also want to enjoy the game and be rewarded different ways. (http://youtu.be/QaZQycWsJSs) The extra back doors I'm asking for are there to motivate. I've already pointed out some of these back doors are partially there already. You even acknowledged that you wasn't aware of them when you slammed my argument. Looks like SE agrees with me because they added a few of them already.:p

I mentioned this above and needed to clarify it better.


"You can't even except that people you deem unworthy should still get the same gear if they work toward it!"The type of work, is dependent on how the subject classifies the effort. You don't classify failure as a valid effort. In your views It's a pure screw you morality that's based on personal bias. It's telling everyone this "You fail! try harder it was a good learning experience but not worthy of reward!" (http://youtu.be/9jUjA5eJdpU) I don't think you realize how bad that makes you look. :(

The people you are representing aren't the little guys like Joe pink. They represent your elitist views only not SE's or the communities. You want to secretly oppress them if they can't compete on your level. Obscuring this moral logic from the readers view won't protect you or our personal bias, It's just to obvious. (http://youtu.be/dEUhOp4UQuc):mad:

Good God, have some compassion and show some leeway in this department. This won't hurt anyone but the elitist jerks who want to lord over people with their leet gear as they prance around like something special. I don't see how or why you'd object unless you are really are rooting for the pigs who lord over people. If that's the case then you really are the fraud and hypocrite I see you as. :mad:


http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/300/57279893.jpg

Please go away you make me sick thinking about it.

[Arcon]

Cussing removed from original quote because it valuates the terms of service agreement I agreed to.

[..]


http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/300/57279893.jpg

You are full of shit.


So it does come down to you being an evil little fart that doesn't want people to have what you can get or the fact they might not have the capability to get. Humm, I wonder where my baseless accusations come from. In your opinion people who might not have the skill sets don't deserve the same equipment you have even if they bust their asses trying for it. I don't see this as very moral for yourself or community. :(

What you just said was nothing but baseless accusations, same as always. All of it was wrong and does not reflect what I believe. The entirety of what I said was that people should get the same gear. The only difference between us is that you believe it should be just handed out to everyone, regardless of what they do, whereas I believe SE should try to motivate the people through whatever means to try and be better, and make the content actually by manageable everyone. I'm suggesting to SE to put an effort in to make their content (including their rewards) more accessible. Because right now they aren't.

I believe if you fail content, you should not get the same reward as someone who wins the content. Is that such a foreign concept to you? Because if it is, you're living an entirely different life in an entirely different world. And I'm willing to bet that you're the only one there. But hey, at least they have internet there.


The type of work, is dependent on how the subject classifies the effort. You don't classify failure as a valid effort. In your views It's a pure screw you morality that's based on personal bias. It's telling everyone this "You fail! try harder it was a good learning experience but not worthy of reward!" (http://youtu.be/9jUjA5eJdpU) I don't think you realize how bad that makes you look. :(

I don't think you realize how bad stupid videos, pictures and names like "Joe pink" make you look. But as usual, you're posting bullshit that I never said or wanted. For example, I never once said that failure shouldn't give you anything. All I said was that failure shouldn't give you the same things as success. And here's the thing: if there were different difficulty tiers, even if you fail the hard content, you could win easier content. In my Nyzul example, if you didn't make it to F100, you could still get a F80 piece. How is that not rewarding?


Please go away you make me sick thinking about it.

Why would I care for you or what you feel? All you've done is stand in the way of proper discussion with your childish attempts and debate, insulting and ignorant. This is not your feelgood-place, this is a forum where everyone gets to discuss their opinions. If it makes you feel sick it's you who should leave.

[Sarick]

The only difference between us is that you believe it should be just handed out to everyone, regardless of what they do.

Really? (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26700-FFXI-fixed%21?p=354519&viewfull=1#post354519)


Why would I care for you or what you feel? All you've done is stand in the way of proper discussion with your childish attempts and debate, insulting and ignorant. This is not your feelgood-place, this is a forum where everyone gets to discuss their opinions. If it makes you feel sick it's you who should leave.

I'm sick by the oppressive views you represent, I feel good that I was able to expose them (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26700-FFXI-fixed%21?p=354606&viewfull=1#post354606). You did great job hiding this but in realty I've done enough to expose a few things about your argument and what motivates it. Kick and scream all you want SE is already slowly changing the game to include alternative routes for hardcore content.:D

You've also retaliated in the same fashion. ;)

By the way, the embedded links are comic relief, you clicked them why?:confused:

[Arcon]

I'm sick by the oppressive views you represent, I feel good that I was able to expose them. You did great job hiding this but in realty I've done enough to expose a few things about your argument and what motivates it. Kick and scream all you want SE is already slowly changing the game to include alternative routes for hardcore content.:D

Awesome.


By the way, the embedded links are comic relief, you clicked them why?:confused:

I didn't.

[Sarick]

Awesome.

So you're done arguing then. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/forum.php)