Turialon's Complain about the unsocial EMPY upgrades

[SkyVargrant]

Hello Everyone. what i write down here, lots of peoples would right me petition.
I'd like to complayn me to SE about the absolutly unfair and headless Empyupgrade requierements. I work bwtween 10-12 hours each day, and iam forced to bring up 1500 metallplates to upgrade my Massamune. Peoples that's simply nutz !!! What is Se just thinking about peoples who play ffxi those days? That we all not go working? Is FFxi a onlinegame, who only rich or workless peoples shall have a completetly upgraded empy?
have normal peoples not same right?
what means 1500? Someone loost his mind completetly?

150 Metallplates are far enough. To get a hand on a Empy the peoples preform far enough work to wield sutche a weapen.

I just can advice SE to think things more clear trough. Empy's are for everyone and not only for rich peoples and workless.

So i'd like SE to reconcider the Empy upgrades requierements, and make it more easy.

Requirements from itmes 1500 or 3000 or something in that direction is simply not to taken any serious.

With my post i think i speak most peoples out from heart.




With Freindly regards,

-Your Turialon-

[Kristal]

Level 90 empyrean weapons are very achievable goals for casual players. 95, 99 and AG are for crazed 24/7 players with billions of gil.

[Camiie]

Level 90 empyrean weapons are very achievable goals for casual players.

Generally, yes.


95, 99 and AG are for crazed 24/7 players with billions of gil.

AKA, an extremely stupid and pointless design decision that angers and frustrates a large portion of the player base in order to appease an extremely tiny minority who's subscription fees amount to a drop in the proverbial bucket. What a sad use of limited resources and manpower.

[Zhronne]

Judging from the amount of over 90 weapons you see around I'm not so sure that we're talking about a noticeable minority of players eh.

Judge from the point of view of making Empyreal equal to Relics in termis of effort/reward, the 1500hmp stage was necessary.
They're more or less the same if you consider the lv99 version.
Probably like 180 mils for a Relic, 250ish for an Empy?
So aside from small tweaks, they achieved what they were aiming for.
Can't complain about it.


What I do complain for is that Empyreals have been presented from the beginning as a very easy/very fast and very powerful kind of weapon than even more casual players could obtain, compared to Relics and Mythics back then.
Then when you're in the middle of the process of obtaining your Empy, you get the big surprise of the lv95 trial.
That was unexpected, obviously unwelcome and generally speaking a big mass rape of players. First you lure them with something easy, then when they're almost done, you troll them with that trial. Lol.
But this is from the players point of view, which I completely understand and agree with.

Try for a second to see things from the Point of View of Developers.
They wanted such weapons to be more common than Relics/Mythics used to be back in the days, but they over-did it making them TOO common, up to the point that you were expected to have at least one, unless you wanted to be considered an unworthy player. This is under the eyes of all of us.
So they judged it unfair that a weapon that was so much easier to obtain was also more powerful than the past ones.
They wanted to restore part of the "elite"ness of those weapons, and they tried to do so the following way:
1) Adding more powerful WSs to use with the old weapons
2) Making old weapons easier to obtain (dynamis reform)
3) Making so the newer trials of the Empy weapons are harder to get through
4) Making so all weapons, at level 99, require more or less the same amount of effort

From this point of view I think they succeded and performed pretty coherent actions, aside from a few things that still have to be fixed.
You can agree with this view of the game, with this concept, or you can disagree with it, but whatever the outcome I'm sure we can all "understand" it.
(personally I disagree :p)

[Zhronne]

I mean, let's look at it from an even more general point of view that can be shared through different MMOs as well.
When a developer makes something "too powerful" or unfair, or too easy or something like that, it creates a big source of unbalancement within the game.
Eventually, according to the importance of the feature, that might bring ruin and make all the game crumble and make players, ultimately, very disappointed and leave the game.
When this happens it's a mistake on their side, and they have to fix it when they're still in time.

To do so, they have to make very unwelcome choices that will piss the players and will send them on an outrage but, in the end, it will be for the good of all players in the long run, included those who will (rightfully) go mad about it.

We players are not very good in being objective. When our class receives a buff we're always happy, even when it's unneded or exagerated (and makes players of other classes unhappy).
When we receive a nerf, it's of course always a big drama because we never like it, even if it was "necessary".
Sometimes we want too many things too soon, without realizing that if they did that, we would enjoy the game for a couple of days and... then get bored and leave the game.

It's hard to find the right balance between these aspects, but I'm sure we're all aware that we're not the most reliable source in that.
Like I said in another thread, Developers should listen to us, check our feedback and take it into serious consideration, but it should be THEM who drive the bus and decide which direction it's going, ultimately, basing their choices ALSO on our feedback, but not just on that.
Sometimes they just have to make very tough choices that cannot be avoided, nobody of us will like them but, in the end, it will be for the good of all of us.


This is generally speaking of course, not talking in particular about Empy weapons, altough this might apply to them as well.
What I can honestly say I can still blame SE for is to have acted so LATE.
A good example? Ukko's Fury and Victory Smite nerf. This is a not particularly important example (it wasn't such a huge nerf in the end), but it represents very well what I want to say.
Ukko's and Vsmite, especially the first, were clearly broken and we've all been knowing that even if we seldom admitted it.
SE should have fixed that YEARS AGO, max a few months after the release of those WS. Fixing it more than an year after their release is plain retarded, they could have gone another way.

Yet they have this tendency to react too late and too slowly to very important issues in the game, and when they do that it's pretty clear that the reactions from the player base will only be worse, even if the choices they are making are rightful and necessary.

[Camiie]

What they should have done, if they wanted Empyreans to be rare and special, was make the WoE versions much less aggravating to fully upgrade.

[Lynchilles]

OP is indicative of the attitude of generation Y: I want it ergo I am entitled to it.

[Zhronne]

What they should have done, if they wanted Empyreans to be rare and special, was make the WoE versions much less aggravating to fully upgrade.
Well this is true, compared to the amount of effort taken the WoE versions are much worse =/

[Kieron]

What they should have done, if they wanted Empyreans to be rare and special, was make the WoE versions much less aggravating to fully upgrade.

I couldn't understand for the life of me why such a design choice was even suggested for the game. The inferior versions of the weapons are 5x harder/more time consuming to complete than the real thing. This is something that honestly should be addressed but at this point, I doubt they'd even bother.

[Plasticleg]

I always took WoE weapons as a dumb-check...just like Aggressive Aim.

[Zhronne]

Hey! I have a WoE version of H2H that I completed before Verethragna! :(
Back then we were spamming #8 and I ended up with a lot of coins without even wanting them.
Thought I might as well upgrade hey!

But yeah, it's a huge pain altough I guess bringing them to 99 is easier than bringing empys to 99, but lv85 version is another story.

[Sparthos]

I always took WoE weapons as a dumb-check...just like Aggressive Aim.

Because there wasn't a time when WoE weapons were easier to obtain than Empyreans and we all knew that Heroes of Abyssea was going to morph the game into chain brews, timed pop NM KIs in boxes and chain reraises or that SE was going to screw up WOE and make the 95/99 trials a huge gilsink rather than continue with the pattern of easy trials in exchange for a vanilla weapon with the WS attached.

Hindsight is 20/20 bro.

[Damane]

I mean, let's look at it from an even more general point of view that can be shared through different MMOs as well.
When a developer makes something "too powerful" or unfair, or too easy or something like that, it creates a big source of unbalancement within the game.
Eventually, according to the importance of the feature, that might bring ruin and make all the game crumble and make players, ultimately, very disappointed and leave the game.
When this happens it's a mistake on their side, and they have to fix it when they're still in time.

To do so, they have to make very unwelcome choices that will piss the players and will send them on an outrage but, in the end, it will be for the good of all players in the long run, included those who will (rightfully) go mad about it.

We players are not very good in being objective. When our class receives a buff we're always happy, even when it's unneded or exagerated (and makes players of other classes unhappy).
When we receive a nerf, it's of course always a big drama because we never like it, even if it was "necessary".
Sometimes we want too many things too soon, without realizing that if they did that, we would enjoy the game for a couple of days and... then get bored and leave the game.

It's hard to find the right balance between these aspects, but I'm sure we're all aware that we're not the most reliable source in that.
Like I said in another thread, Developers should listen to us, check our feedback and take it into serious consideration, but it should be THEM who drive the bus and decide which direction it's going, ultimately, basing their choices ALSO on our feedback, but not just on that.
Sometimes they just have to make very tough choices that cannot be avoided, nobody of us will like them but, in the end, it will be for the good of all of us.


This is generally speaking of course, not talking in particular about Empy weapons, altough this might apply to them as well.
What I can honestly say I can still blame SE for is to have acted so LATE.
A good example? Ukko's Fury and Victory Smite nerf. This is a not particularly important example (it wasn't such a huge nerf in the end), but it represents very well what I want to say.
Ukko's and Vsmite, especially the first, were clearly broken and we've all been knowing that even if we seldom admitted it.
SE should have fixed that YEARS AGO, max a few months after the release of those WS. Fixing it more than an year after their release is plain retarded, they could have gone another way.

Yet they have this tendency to react too late and too slowly to very important issues in the game, and when they do that it's pretty clear that the reactions from the player base will only be worse, even if the choices they are making are rightful and necessary.

I would agree with you but SE doesnt do that.

They just love to buff SAM and leave everythign besides. Hey its their lovechild can you say anythign else!

[Aeonk]

Because there wasn't a time when WoE weapons were easier to obtain than Empyreans and we all knew that Heroes of Abyssea was going to morph the game into chain brews, timed pop NM KIs in boxes and chain reraises or that SE was going to screw up WOE and make the 95/99 trials a huge gilsink rather than continue with the pattern of easy trials in exchange for a vanilla weapon with the WS attached.

Hindsight is 20/20 bro.
Don't forget pre-Abyssite of discernment. Empy's were a pain in the ass back when you had everyone beating on it and trying different WS's, sometimes mobs didn't last long enough to test them all.

[Leggomyeggo]

I see you're point but i was involved in MANY MANY similar complaints issued to Sony about things like this in EverQuest yeaaaars ago. The end result? Dumbed down easily accessible content for EVERYONE! No longer does it require much effort to obtain almost anything in 90% of new MMO's! What does this mean you might ask? Well everyone standing around with ALL the SAME gear and no feelings of accomplishment or uniqueness. If they do change this, They will go the extreme and dumb everything down. So many hardcore MMO fans whine "Why are mmo's so easy now?"

The fact for me at least is, i like it that way....i dont know why,it drives me NUTS! i curse at my monitor daily! But when all is said and done,the time invested makes the reward all the sweeter! I only recently got into this game,many have asked me why this and not something new with more life? I can only answer what i just told you. That and these small communities of older more mature gamers are AMAZING!

The guilds on games like WoW..... no...just no! Besides i got my start on EQOA for ps2 and after a 9 year run 03-12 the game shut down leaving me with very little options. I needed a game that challenged me the same way, consequently it ended up being a game from the same exact era.

Ya i get it...people want to be able to do stuff for a couple hours and actually feel like they accomplished something. FINE. But i would ask they seek out other games like WoW because IMO we need more hardcore games not less.

FIN. lol

[Yarly]

1500 heavy metal isn't enough, it's too low

[saevel]

1500 heavy metal isn't enough, it's too low

Yeah too many people getting those. They should take one year minimum, four years average. Make it 10,000 plates.

Sh1tz too easy bro...

[Mirabelle]

1500 heavy metal isn't enough, it's too low

Yes its always best to dishearten a good percentage of your player base. Or at least force them to do mindless gil making tasks over and over again to get something in this game. Shows lots of creativity and imagination.

As a casual player averaging 20h a week tops on this game, it will take years to achieve one empy 99 even if I do nothing else but spam dynamis and buy HMP. Where is the fun in that? I like doing different tasks. A bit of dynamis, a bit of abyssea, a bit of VW, some levelling new jobs, some limbus. If I do that it would take decades to get to 1500 HMP.

You can say that people are getting it done, but the only people I see completing these weapons are the 24/7 folks that just do dynamis/VW spam around the clock. Or they are part of ADL/NNI merc groups with tons of gil. The regular folks aren't getting this done at a great rate.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Emps were too easy to begin with, now they add something that requires time to upgrade it people complain....

SE I think you'res too lenient, should up it to at least 5000.

[Sparthos]

Emps were too easy to begin with, now they add something that requires time to upgrade it people complain....

SE I think you'res too lenient, should up it to at least 5000.


I don't think you guys understand the basis behind why some people complain about the 1500 plate trial. For instance, If I complained that Chloris was too difficult relative to other Empy NMs I'd be rightfully told to shut up, suck it up and do the work because so long as you gather up the 4 KIs you can pop Chloris and get its drops.

Note, all you have to do is follow a path and you're guaranteed to finish the trial so long as you continue to put in work farming the items. With HMPs? No such thing. The plates are extremely rare, you cannot farm them in any realistic way, Zilart T3 are the only NMs that drop pouches (why?) and you cannot login and say "well im gonna work on getting 10 plates today" because the droprates are so low and random amidst the other shit you can obtain.

Hell, you can farm currency for a relic, farm alexandrite for a mythic but you're forced to farm pure gil for HMPs? It's silly.

[SkyVargrant]

Hello,

What i can say about gamebalance ist just that one: lots of Mob in ffxi have 5000-6000 HP. So if lots of peoples would wield a empy on 99, i canot see where the problem with the Gamebalance realy is. Many peoples have not much time to play, and i have see no Problem if a easy pray is slayen with 1 or 2 ws. I personal like the uperhand egainst all sorts of mob. I like to chill in ffxi.

[Aarahs]

You're silly, you can convert currency to hmp, you can convert alex to hmp. That's why they aren't EX. The only thing stopping players from completing an empy 99 is themselves.

[Sparthos]

You're silly, you can convert currency to hmp, you can convert alex to hmp. That's why they aren't EX. The only thing stopping players from completing an empy 99 is themselves.

Again, you can FARM dynamis for DYNAMIS.
You can FARM salvage for SALVAGE.
Why then can I not FARM Voidwatch for VOIDWATCH?

It's shoddy design, thats why.

[saevel]

I was being sarcastic earlier ... I hope nobody actually thought I was serious about 10,000 plates.

Honestly 1500 is WAY to fcking much, especially when you compared them to the acquisition of other items. Should be 500 and call it a day.

[Demon6324236]

I was being sarcastic earlier ... I hope nobody actually thought I was serious about 10,000 plates.

Honestly 1500 is WAY to fcking much, especially when you compared them to the acquisition of other items. Should be 500 and call it a day.

I took it as a 50/50 chance, I was hoping you were joking, but with how high the levels of stupid are around these forums, I wasn't about to rule it out.

[Kysaiana]

The problem with the HMP trial isn't the number of plates involved, it's the asinine rarity of HMPs in general. If the trial required say, riftsand, it would be easy. It isn't a matter of saving up the gil or even wanting to spend that much on a single trial. If even half the people who have an empyrean weapon wanted to upgrade a single weapon for themselves they couldn't because the supply just isn't there. The only reason the few people that have bothered to blow that much gil to get to 95 is because so few others are willing to do the same. If people want snow-flake status, go for the afterglow. I don't see why players should be punished for wanting to make a weapon they made when the cap was 90 or lower 99 relevant.

[Luvbunny]

I don't understand why people are against lowering this ridiculous 1500 HMP.... It should have been 500 to begin with. Yes I get it that SE wants VW to be valid content for at least 2 years or so. But if that is their intention, then HMP should drop off more events and not just void watch, and the pouches should drop off from all the big bosses from each path of the VW chapters (zilart, cop, toau, jeuno, cities, etc...) this way people will spam these, get a good drop rate, everyone make money and be happy.

[Camiie]

I don't understand why people are against lowering this ridiculous 1500 HMP....

Because their sense of self-worth is somehow damaged by people they deem to be beneath them being able to complete legendary class weapons. That's the only thing I can come up with.


It should have been 500 to begin with. Yes I get it that SE wants VW to be valid content for at least 2 years or so. But if that is their intention, then HMP should drop off more events and not just void watch, and the pouches should drop off from all the big bosses from each path of the VW chapters (zilart, cop, toau, jeuno, cities, etc...) this way people will spam these, get a good drop rate, everyone make money and be happy.

I think their main intention was to put a 10-foot thick heavy metal wall between the majority of players and completed Empyreans so a handful of players can maintain special snowflake status. Anything beyond that was secondary.

IMO, VW is already starting to lose a bit of luster as the horrendous drop rates or gear and HMPs wear people down rather than inspire them to keep on trying. I know I'm starting to see less interest in it, even though for many people it's the only viable endgame in town beyond Abyssea.

[Luvbunny]

Because their sense of self-worth is somehow damaged by people they deem to be beneath them being able to complete legendary class weapons. That's the only thing I can come up with.

I think their main intention was to put a 10-foot thick heavy metal wall between the majority of players and completed Empyreans so a handful of players can maintain special snowflake status. Anything beyond that was secondary.

That is one thing I do not comprehend..... the special snowflake status that is utter ridiculous and bull shit. One thing that is great about abyssea is everyone is entitled if they put some works and everything is achievable even for the casual players. If anything they need more of this. Voidwatch drop rate is low, could be a bit better, but it is not horrendous, I have already got 4/6 most coveted body pieces. None of the super shiny weapons yet but I only do VW spam runs perhaps 2 days a week. But yeah I see nothing wrong with everyone having the same opportunity, and squash these so called precious snowflakes with their imaginary achievement and self entitlement.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I don't understand why people are against lowering this ridiculous 1500 HMP.... It should have been 500 to begin with. Yes I get it that SE wants VW to be valid content for at least 2 years or so. But if that is their intention, then HMP should drop off more events and not just void watch, and the pouches should drop off from all the big bosses from each path of the VW chapters (zilart, cop, toau, jeuno, cities, etc...) this way people will spam these, get a good drop rate, everyone make money and be happy.

The requirements were absurd for emps to begin with, especially when the majority are the most powerful WS' you can get.

1500 isn't that much anyway, I agree increase the drop rate, but the number is fair.

[Luvbunny]

1500 isn't that much anyway, I agree increase the drop rate, but the number is fair.

If they deemed is fair, then they should add more pouches on a lot of the high tier NMs of VW. And more HMP on bcnms, campaign, walk of echoes, and some NMs in Abyssea (Isgebind I am looking at you.... and all the other 2 wyrms). This will revive a few dead contents, and bring more supplies of HMP to the market. Problem solved, people still have to work on completing their trials, but they get more opportunities to get the drops, and market will help them with steady supplies.

[Ragmar]

I think the major point the OP was attempting to make was that when empys were released they were said to be the relic of casuals (paraphrased obviously). With that in mind the HMP trial doesn't fit the original design. It is easier to farm 5 marrows than 1500 plates and can be done with less people in less time. You can farm 5 marrows in 4 hours with 10 people. You cannot even come close to farming 1500 HMP in 4 hours with even 18 people giving every HMP from the run. Start to finish a relic will take you far less time than an empy which was not what SE advertised.

[Demon6324236]

I think the major point the OP was attempting to make was that when empys were released they were said to be the relic of casuals (paraphrased obviously).

I thought that was Mythics wasn't it?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I thought that was Mythics wasn't it?

It was, Mythics were mean't to be MUCH easier than Relics.. I think SE smoked something illegal that day.

I can't remember even once SE referring to Emps as the casual players weapon.

[Demon6324236]

I think SE smoked something illegal that day.

Most definitely agree!

[Camiie]

It was, Mythics were mean't to be MUCH easier than Relics.. I think SE smoked something illegal that day.

Only smoking bath salts can make someone THAT messed up in the head.

[Meyi]

Personally I like the 99 being so difficult. I'm tired of hearing so many people complain about how the game is "too easy" anymore; these weapons are just right for them.

[Camiie]

Personally I like the 99 being so difficult. I'm tired of hearing so many people complain about how the game is "too easy" anymore; these weapons are just right for them.

It'd be nice if they didn't screw over everyone else in the process though.

What they should do is create a new set of weapons offered by the Smilebringers that require some ungodly number of items from some nigh-invulnerable NMs scattered in the hardest to reach areas of Vana'diel that only spawn once a month each. These weapons could be game-breakingly powerful, and produce a constant snowflake effect around the player.

Then they can leave the rest of us to have obtainable, max level legendary-class weapons since there would be a superior alternative for the snowflake status seekers.

[Luvbunny]

Personally I like the 99 being so difficult. I'm tired of hearing so many people complain about how the game is "too easy" anymore; these weapons are just right for them.

I am gonna have to disagree with you on this Meiyi :) I think this 1500 HMP is a lazy attempt at SE. I can just imagine what was going on during the meeting. With the panic attack setting in, developers hunkered down in the bunker and starting to blame each others, especially Abyssea team for creating such delicious contents that are consumed fast by the consumers - leaving the rest of team having to work their asses off to keep up with the demand and can no longer do minimal updates. They probably trying to figure out how to stretch contents for 3 years, knowing that new expansion is coming in 2013 but pretty much consumers will have nothing much to do till end of 2013. Hence all these new events with super low drop rates, all based on luck, and ridiculous amount of items needed to complete the higher tier of magian weapons. Now they feel they can coast pretty easily and not really having to do much of anything while the rest of the players are back on the grindtastic of yesteryears.

[Mirabelle]

Personally I like the 99 being so difficult. I'm tired of hearing so many people complain about how the game is "too easy" anymore; these weapons are just right for them.

I think you have a strange misconception that "time-consuming" equals "difficult". None of the mobs that drop HMP are difficult. But getting 1500 drops from them takes forever. They've not introduced challenge to the game with this trial. They've introduced a mind-numbing repetitive time sink. It's not entertaining and like Maats cap in the old days, having a 95 Empy just means you spend too much time playing the game not that you are necessarily elite.

[Demon6324236]

I think you have a strange misconception that "time-consuming" equals "difficult". None of the mobs that drop HMP are difficult. But getting 1500 drops from them takes forever. They've not introduced challenge to the game with this trial. They've introduced a mind-numbing repetitive time sink. It's not entertaining and like Maats cap in the old days, having a 95 Empy just means you spend too much time playing the game not that you are necessarily elite.

Very true. Qilin is a prime example of claimed difficulty that is missing imo. I think of Qilin as probably the easiest VWNM there is in terms of spamming, normally he very rarely gets to do much past the 1st 10~15 seconds, its rather easy, the problem is the drops, not that drops are hard, the fight itself is easy to do again and again, the problem is the rewards have low drop rates especially with the number required.

As I have said before, Emps required 50~75 for the previous stages, and no matter what, so long as you won the fight you were given at least 1, with the possibility of an extra, of the items needed. Plates do no such thing, not even remotely close. Plates you happen to see probably 1 for every 2 to 3 kills at best on average, which by normal numbers actually wouldn't be to bad, you would end up going from 38~75 fights, up to about 200~250 fights at most, which isn't nearly as bad. However the problem is that the number went up along with the uncertainty, now it became 1500 plates, that number jumped by 20 times, and the rate of drops is much lower. In fact, it would take about 4500 Kaggen with my average drops off of T3 Jeuno, to get a lv95 Emp, even if you have an Alliance of friends giving you their plates, thats still an average of 250 fights, which is 4 times the maximum you would need if you did a lv90 Emp, most of the time in which your friends or ls members were also rewarded for helping with +2s or the like, which T3 Jeuno does not drop, instead they drop an extremely rare body they may not get in the 250 fights even.

That may seem like alot of BS but from my experience its the case, its not "hard" to make a lv95 Emp, its outrageous on how it jumps in more than 1 way, it went from 75 items, you always get 1 of, to 1500 items, you get 1 of every 3 kills on average. Now some may say that you should do Qilin, Kaggen is a bad example, but Qilin is a mass of luck from both the pouches and the drops, so I don't want to count those in, not to mention if I remember correctly, lv95 Emps were put out with T3 Jeuno NMs, and T3 Zilart were later added.

[Connavarr]

Surprised nobody's mentioned the new expansion during this. Good luck getting the people to spam Qilin for the 400th time when there's an entirely new continent to explore, new jobs to level etc. 1,500 is way too much, with piss-poor drop rates.

[Demon6324236]

Surprised nobody's mentioned the new expansion during this. Good luck getting the people to spam Qilin for the 400th time when there's an entirely new continent to explore, new jobs to level etc. 1,500 is way too much, with piss-poor drop rates.

Well the thing is we still don't know for sure they wont add new ways with it to get these plates. Admittedly it is not likely but its possible, Ancient Currency comes from Campaign, Alexandrites come from Neo-Nyzul Isle, they are not super awesome ways, but they exist. But its true, that very much is a problem, unless the expansion sucks in every possible way, and everyone goes running back to VW, its likely going to cause problems.

[Connavarr]

If the expansion sucks, people won't be running back to VW. They'll be switching games.

[Demon6324236]

If the expansion sucks, people won't be running back to VW. They'll be switching games.

Alot, yes, not all, but point was that its not brought up for hopes that we will be seeing more ways to obtain plates. If not, then after some time lv95~99 Emps will become almost as bad (if not potentially as bad or worse) than Mythics are to make, because you will never get the Alliances together for VW after the new expansion is where everyone is.

[Connavarr]

Alot, yes, not all, but point was that its not brought up for hopes that we will be seeing more ways to obtain plates. If not, then after some time lv95~99 Emps will become almost as bad (if not potentially as bad or worse) than Mythics are to make, because you will never get the Alliances together for VW after the new expansion is where everyone is.


Honestly? I expect HMP's to be worse then Alexandrite's after Adoulin, simply because you can't solo(read: dual-box) VW like you can Salvage. If things don't change, expect price spike when Adoulin kicks off, and the supply to drop.

SE needs to adjust this. I have no faith whatsoever there will be HMP's in Adoulin.

[Demon6324236]

Yes I expect them to be much worse than right now, gear in SoA will likely be better than it is in VW, meaning that the gear in VW will lose value. If it loses value then it will not be done for gear, and only plates alone, which is all that will fuel it. We see how well that works with Salvage though don't we? Depending on what all SoA brings to the table and how many people stop doing older content it could very easily be enough to drive VW into the ground, I already see fewer shouts for VW a day on Phoenix, SoA will mean even less I'm sure. I am not saying by any means that it will be as bad as a Mythic, but it could be, the high number required and the small number of supply, same problem Mythics suffer from, and I see it coming to HMPs when SoA hits unless they make another way to get them.

[Luvbunny]

If the expansion sucks, people won't be running back to VW. They'll be switching games.

Speaking of conspiracy, do you guys ever wonder why the new expansion will be released around the same time as FF14 being rebooted - which is also similar time frame when Abyssea was introduced and FF14 originally launched in 2010. I think the new expansion could go two ways, they probably will not put that many contents at start, just enough to keep people entertained for a good 3-5 months at most. Assuming that FF14 reboot will be a massive success, they probably will introduce more old school content for FF11 that favor select fews and will try to bring back "challenging very hard unattainable" content to further drive the rest of the population to FF14 (also assuming the new version will be catered to solo players and have casual friendly attitude). If FF14 end up to not find enough subscribers and possibly fail to gain traction... then they probably will release abyssea blockbuster version 2 on the SoA contents to keep the current players happy and getting addicted for awhile, though most of the drops are probably going to be luck based so that most people will have to grind this over and over.

I have a feeling all these crazy requirement with the magian trials is their safety net, should FF14 fail once more, at least the majority of FF11 players already invested so much more to drop out completely from the game and can be hooked for a little longer with SoA. Since SoA is a brand new expansion (and not add ons like Abyssea) they can justify stretching the content to last a minimum of 3 years to 6 years (if they are feeling lazy).

[Afania]

Yes its always best to dishearten a good percentage of your player base. Or at least force them to do mindless gil making tasks over and over again to get something in this game. Shows lots of creativity and imagination.

As a casual player averaging 20h a week tops on this game, it will take years to achieve one empy 99 even if I do nothing else but spam dynamis and buy HMP. Where is the fun in that? I like doing different tasks. A bit of dynamis, a bit of abyssea, a bit of VW, some levelling new jobs, some limbus. If I do that it would take decades to get to 1500 HMP.

You can say that people are getting it done, but the only people I see completing these weapons are the 24/7 folks that just do dynamis/VW spam around the clock. Or they are part of ADL/NNI merc groups with tons of gil. The regular folks aren't getting this done at a great rate.

I'm also a causal player that plays 20~25ish hours a week, finished 1500 hmp in about 3.5~4 months. I can't say I'm fast compare with hardcore, but it isn't anything that's zomg so bad and certainly doesn't take 1 year(I'd say 4~5 months for ppl playing 2~3 hours a day). Is it boring to gil grind? Maybe. But so does pretty much every other event in this game, just grind.

Now that I'm done with empy, besides legion, more gil grind to buy Mythic or hex-1 items, there are really nothing else to do either.

I mean, I don't even know the point of this thread. Ok, SE make empy 99 obtainable by spamming VW, it's just more VW grind instead of dyna grind, which, by this point of time, majority of player already been spamming hundred and hundred of them and not all that more fun than dyna grind either. SE makes empy 99 only need 100 plates, and everyone finish them in 1 week, what next when you finish it? Sit in Jeuno and afk cuz you have nothing to do? Or quit the game?

If someone feel lv 99 is impossible, just don't do it, it's not like someone put a gun in your head force you to do a pixel item. If you really really want it but only have 20hr a week of play time, just do it slowly and one day it will be yours. But it's not really anyone's problem if you just want to rush and get it done in 1 week. Trust me, next thing you will complain is this game lacks content when you finish all gears so fast and you're quitting.



It'd be nice if they didn't screw over everyone else in the process though.

What they should do is create a new set of weapons offered by the Smilebringers that require some ungodly number of items from some nigh-invulnerable NMs scattered in the hardest to reach areas of Vana'diel that only spawn once a month each. These weapons could be game-breakingly powerful, and produce a constant snowflake effect around the player.

Then they can leave the rest of us to have obtainable, max level legendary-class weapons since there would be a superior alternative for the snowflake status seekers.



They've already done it, it's called afterglow.

And what's wrong with empy 99 cost as much as a relic, empy is functionable at 85~90, which is certainly doable by causals. Lv 99 isn't zomg awesome difference too, so why complain about how long it takes to 99 when you can just stick with 90? It's not like this game is PvP and if you don't have a lv 99 empy you'll never win or something.

[Demon6324236]

Honestly 250~500 sounds more appropriate, at least the number jump wouldn't be 20 times as much, only about 4~7 times, which seems alot better. Also it means the plate number would be obtainable in roughly 45~90 Kaggens so long as everyone in the Alliance gives 1 person the plates and it is a full Alliance. Mind you a party doing an Abyssea NM for lv90 takes 38~75, lv80 or 85 takes 25~50 kills, so if the Alliance is giving all plates to a single member then it seems like a reasonable jump to go up to about 45~90 kills.

[Camiie]

They've already done it, it's called afterglow.

Afterglow is not a separate weapon. It's not even a separate path.


And what's wrong with empy 99 cost as much as a relic, empy is functionable at 85~90, which is certainly doable by causals.

AF3+1 is "functionable." Why didn't they make it so 99% of the players would never be able to +2 it?


Lv 99 isn't zomg awesome difference too, so why complain about how long it takes to 99 when you can just stick with 90?

Because it isn't simply a matter of time. If time was all it took, then I wouldn't complain. If I had to do 30k weapon skills to go from 90-95, I'd at least feel like it was something I could accomplish eventually. With HMPs and the way they are distributed, there's nothing even close to guarantee I'll ever see 1500 no matter how much time and effort I put forth.


It's not like this game is PvP and if you don't have a lv 99 empy you'll never win or something.

It's nice to be able to finish what one starts. SE ensured that for most people that will never happen, and they did so simply to appease a small minority of players.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

More gear for the non-1%ers!

[Meyi]

Because it isn't simply a matter of time. If time was all it took, then I wouldn't complain. If I had to do 30k weapon skills to go from 90-95, I'd at least feel like it was something I could accomplish eventually. With HMPs and the way they are distributed, there's nothing even close to guarantee I'll ever see 1500 no matter how much time and effort I put forth.

I'm pretty sure people would still complain with 30k Weapon Skills. My friend bought most of his Heavy Metal Plates. Perhaps time off from doing events that drop them could be spent farming gil to buy the ones you still need?

[Camiie]

I'm pretty sure people would still complain with 30k Weapon Skills.

A trial like that makes the process purely a matter of time, which is what the other poster was inferring the HMP trial is.


My friend bought most of his Heavy Metal Plates. Perhaps time off from doing events that drop them could be spent farming gil to buy the ones you still need?

And if no one is out collecting plates, or they just aren't dropping very often, all the gil in the world means squat. See how well your friend's strategy works after Adoulin.

[Ragmar]

I thought that was Mythics wasn't it?

It was mythics pre abyssea yes. When SE announced empy though there was an uproar in the relic community over fear that these weapons would crap on relics just like a lot of the abyssea gear crapped on old EG gear. This is when SE saw a mass exodous of veterans leaving FFXI feeling that they had wasted years obtaining gear that was replaced in one expansion. SE then said that they intended for relics to always be the top weapons and empys would be something that could be done much easier. This is the sole reason 1500 plates doesnt really make sense to me. I think SE created the 1500 plates trial because even though they may have intended relics to be the top weapons there are only a few that are overall better than their empy counterpart. Even the ones that are better require the merit WS's.

[Ragmar]

Speaking of conspiracy, do you guys ever wonder why the new expansion will be released around the same time as FF14 being rebooted - which is also similar time frame when Abyssea was introduced and FF14 originally launched in 2010. I think the new expansion could go two ways, they probably will not put that many contents at start, just enough to keep people entertained for a good 3-5 months at most. Assuming that FF14 reboot will be a massive success, they probably will introduce more old school content for FF11 that favor select fews and will try to bring back "challenging very hard unattainable" content to further drive the rest of the population to FF14 (also assuming the new version will be catered to solo players and have casual friendly attitude). If FF14 end up to not find enough subscribers and possibly fail to gain traction... then they probably will release abyssea blockbuster version 2 on the SoA contents to keep the current players happy and getting addicted for awhile, though most of the drops are probably going to be luck based so that most people will have to grind this over and over.

I have a feeling all these crazy requirement with the magian trials is their safety net, should FF14 fail once more, at least the majority of FF11 players already invested so much more to drop out completely from the game and can be hooked for a little longer with SoA. Since SoA is a brand new expansion (and not add ons like Abyssea) they can justify stretching the content to last a minimum of 3 years to 6 years (if they are feeling lazy).

I wouldnt count on an abyssea 2 launch when SE calls it a huge mistake. Regardless of my feelings about it SE has in fact said they see it as a mistake. You cant argue with that even though you do love to argue ... waits to be called an elitest gear lording all around meanie for pointing out fact. And a princess snowflake for added effect.

[Fupafighter]

Stop buying cells. Stop buying stones. Farm gil and buy the plates. Use the stones you accumulate. Do dynamis. Sell currency. Cruor farm. Convert the VW cruor and cruor farm cruor to gil via chocobo blinkers. Profit. Not hard.

[Mostfowl]

Relics: at this point easy to obtain and can be obtained as a by-product of doing other content (VW for instance you can make a killing at profit wise, buy your ancient currency, blamo easy peasy relic) Down side is most the jobs do not have access to relics and se refuses to add jobs to them (ie dnc to dagger, blu to sword etc) cause it would upset the "lore" (relic gear for all jobs in dyna did that anyway) which is a poor excuse by se. Magians trials, not bad and almost 100% soloable.

Empys: Boring as they come to making but still relatively easy if you have the patience to suffer the monotony and bang em out. 1500 plates come to about 150,000,000 gil roughly (at 100k per plate). Not quite a by-product like relics but still monotonous which is what you should come to expect from empy. Also the ease of getting them is what makes ppl pursue the more worthless empy weapons (I'm looking at you Hvergelmir). They also open up good weapons to the mostly solo, yes it may take you a little longer but you can easily pug these weapons. Can take a week or so make a single one.

Mythics: Opens you to a variety of content with entry-time limitations and mostly something you need some skill for but at the same time is alot more interesting to obtain. Costs roughly 600,000,000 gil if you want to buy your alexandrites. That and the magians trials for them are not someone bang-outable for the most part. Need a GOOD and steady group of ppl who know their jobs. Not easy to do with a pug and are more geared to the hardcore. Can take years to make a single one.

Why complain about 1500 plates. Its boring and a time killer but seriously what do we do in this game other than FARM GEAR. No matter what endgame you are doing you are FARMING GEAR. The boring and time consuming aspect to getting the 1500 plates is still easier.faster.cheaper than that of a mythic but not quite as easy as a relic. Its an in-between weapon. Why are we complaining?

[Demon6324236]

It was mythics pre abyssea yes. When SE announced empy though there was an uproar in the relic community over fear that these weapons would crap on relics just like a lot of the abyssea gear crapped on old EG gear. This is when SE saw a mass exodous of veterans leaving FFXI feeling that they had wasted years obtaining gear that was replaced in one expansion. SE then said that they intended for relics to always be the top weapons and empys would be something that could be done much easier. This is the sole reason 1500 plates doesnt really make sense to me. I think SE created the 1500 plates trial because even though they may have intended relics to be the top weapons there are only a few that are overall better than their empy counterpart. Even the ones that are better require the merit WS's.

SE doesn't understand how to do things then, because they have messed the same thing up twice. They overpowered 1 set of "casual" endgame weapons, and made the other set nearly unobtainable while being the best for alot of weapons by crushing Relic and Emps in power or utility.

[Camiie]

Stop buying cells. Stop buying stones. Farm gil and buy the plates. Use the stones you accumulate. Do dynamis. Sell currency. Cruor farm. Convert the VW cruor and cruor farm cruor to gil via chocobo blinkers. Profit. Not hard.

For the second time: And if no one is out collecting plates, or they just aren't dropping very often, all the gil in the world means squat. Someone has to bring them to the market, they don't just magically appear in peoples' bazaars.

[Draylo]

Only loosers have 99 emps, SE should cater to people who can only play 1 hour a week and they should be able to get the best gear in the game w/o any effort. It's too hard to make gil.

[Demon6324236]

Only loosers have 99 emps, SE should cater to people who can only play 1 hour a week and they should be able to get the best gear in the game w/o any effort. It's too hard to make gil.

When Heavy Metal is sold by a NPC in Jeuno or the guy behind the OP in Jugner, for 100k, let me know. That time will be when using gil as the way to get them becomes a viable reliance as an alternative.

[Camiie]

Only loosers have 99 emps, SE should cater to people who can only play 1 hour a week and they should be able to get the best gear in the game w/o any effort. It's too hard to make gil.


I give this troll a 0... out of 5.

[Ophannus]

95/99 aren't meant for casuals, besides the 90 versions are already extremely powerful, there's not very much difference between a 90 emp and a 99 emp except a bit of base damage and +5 stat. Again the most powerful equipment in the game is meant to be obtained by the players that put in the most time and effort, whereas the 90 versions are fair and reasonable for even casual players to obtain.

[Camiie]

95/99 aren't meant for casuals,

Or even most players who are beyond casual.


besides the 90 versions are already extremely powerful,

This is true.


there's not very much difference between a 90 emp and a 99 emp except a bit of base damage and +5 stat.

Yeah, just like there wasn't much difference between a Hauberk and an Adaberk. It's just a few stat points, right?


Again the most powerful equipment in the game is meant to be obtained by the players that put in the most time and effort, whereas the 90 versions are fair and reasonable for even casual players to obtain.

You still can't do it without a truckload of luck. If it was just time and effort I'd be cool with that.

[Fupafighter]

On my server, there is around 200 plates daily put into the market to buy. I'm positive that the supply will not run out soon. Man up and start working on it if you feel the market is not going to supply them.

[Kysaiana]

Yeah guys better "man up." And do it fast, because when everyone that has an empyrean "mans up" there won't be enough plates to go around. My issue isn't getting the gil to pay for all the plates I need left for the trial, it's having better things to spend gil on than a single trial that is nothing more than a road block to 99. If people have nothing better to do with all the gil they make afking in port jeuno, then by all means buy up the supply of plates. Once Voidwatch goes the way of Walk of Echoes or Salvage, the only supply of plates will be from people that were saving them and gave up.

[Fupafighter]

Yeah guys better "man up." And do it fast, because when everyone that has an empyrean "mans up" there won't be enough plates to go around. My issue isn't getting the gil to pay for all the plates I need left for the trial, it's having better things to spend gil on than a single trial that is nothing more than a road block to 99. If people have nothing better to do with all the gil they make afking in port jeuno, then by all means buy up the supply of plates. Once Voidwatch goes the way of Walk of Echoes or Salvage, the only supply of plates will be from people that were saving them and gave up.
So what you're saying is you don't want to spend your gil because you have other priorities? That sounds like you have the choice available and you are not taking advantage of it.

[Meyi]

Yeah guys better "man up." And do it fast, because when everyone that has an empyrean "mans up" there won't be enough plates to go around.

Do you even know what the term 'man up' means? Judging by this comment I'd say no...

And considering how terrible the drop rate is in Voidwatch, I don't think we have to worry about it drying up any time soon.

[Kysaiana]

He's saying to suck it up and spend the gil, which is all well and good but if everyone did that then no one would finish. I'd personally rather spend the gil on a relic than blow it all on false prestige. I'm not saying don't do the trial if you have nothing better to do, I'm saying I personally won't bother with it as it is. Also, I'm not saying VW will die anytime soon but it is in decline. And eventually this trial will not be completable unless something changes. So, if people want to do this trial ever, they should probably buy up all the plates they can now before it's too late.

[Fupafighter]

He's saying to suck it up and spend the gil, which is all well and good but if everyone did that then no one would finish. I'd personally rather spend the gil on a relic than blow it all on false prestige. I'm not saying don't do the trial if you have nothing better to do, I'm saying I personally won't bother with it as it is. Also, I'm not saying VW will die anytime soon but it is in decline. And eventually this trial will not be completable unless something changes. So, if people want to do this trial ever, they should probably buy up all the plates they can now before it's too late.
As long as people are making relics and there are people doing VW, there will be metals. That will last ATLEAST until the next expansion.

[Sayomi]

I agree the Weapon trials are insane and need to be lowered, hell even 5 Umbral Marrows is impossible for me with my playtime, and its not like SE can't lower it or change it, they've done things like this in the past and "fixed" it, I spent a long time working on my relic back in the day and I never get bored with using it, its upsetting to me I can't at the very least get it to 99, you would think hard work and dedication would pay off in the end, nope, need to jump through more hoops.

[Demon6324236]

As long as people are making relics and there are people doing VW, there will be metals. That will last ATLEAST until the next expansion.

As it was said, VW is in decline, less plates are going into the market, prices are going higher, and time can only tell until fewer and fewer people are doing it and it becomes rare. Not that I think it will stop soon, but the potential is there for it to slow down more and more as time goes as people will get items they want and stop doing it, or will be doing alot of NMs that do not drop plates, which is already the case with most T4~6 Spams for Jeuno or Cities.

[Waldrich]

This game is made for the 5% hardcore and not to the 95% semi-hardcore, semi-casual and casual players.

and We'll never get more players due to this Square Enix's Mentality.

[Vivivivi]

What's the point of this thread? At level 80 you get a decent weapon, at level 85 you get a very good weapon, a new weapon skill with aftermath, at level 90 you get a nice stat boost.... what's the problem with that? Sure I agree 1500 plates is a little daunting but consider this-

a) you can buy the plates. They're not rare/ex
b) there is nothing at stake when you fight the monsters that drop them (the risk of loosing a pop that took a while to make)
c) It is possible to obtain 3-12(+?) plates from a single mob such as Qilin
d) People fight the mobs that drop these _all_ the time because they also drop things other people want.

Of course it is somewhat of a time sink, and a little frustrating, but isn't that kinda what the entire game is? Not to mention you can end up with around 100k cruor from a Qilin run........... which can be made into gil which can be used to buy the plates.

[Fupafighter]

As it was said, VW is in decline, less plates are going into the market, prices are going higher, and time can only tell until fewer and fewer people are doing it and it becomes rare. Not that I think it will stop soon, but the potential is there for it to slow down more and more as time goes as people will get items they want and stop doing it, or will be doing alot of NMs that do not drop plates, which is already the case with most T4~6 Spams for Jeuno or Cities.
Did you say prices are going higher? Ours are at 80k here man, and I see alot of people buying lower and lower. Metals are not in decline haha.

[Fupafighter]

This game is made for the 5% hardcore and not to the 95% semi-hardcore, semi-casual and casual players.

and We'll never get more players due to this Square Enix's Mentality.

Casual players are fine to make a 99 empy. 2 hours a day dynamis with 200 coin is roughly 1.4 mil a day. Could complete a 99 in 5-6 months.

[Demon6324236]

Did you say prices are going higher? Ours are at 80k here man, and I see alot of people buying lower and lower. Metals are not in decline haha.

Not on your server then. On Phoenix I have seen less VW shouts daily, plates going up to 110k rather than the old 100k, and because of that I see less. At any rate plates will fall out of the market if the Expansion is good enough, if its not then we will have a problem on our hands bigger than the plates.

[Kysaiana]

Prices have definitely been going down on Siren lately. 80k Each is still the price of a relic for one trial though. The price went down because Qilin was spammed for a few weeks and there's probably a handful of people buying them at all. If everyone on the server spammed Qilin and sold plates instead of keeping them this trial would be easy. So again, the only reason anyone can do this trial is because so few want to do this trial.

[Afania]

Not on your server then. On Phoenix I have seen less VW shouts daily, plates going up to 110k rather than the old 100k, and because of that I see less. At any rate plates will fall out of the market if the Expansion is good enough, if its not then we will have a problem on our hands bigger than the plates.

I'm not too worried about the market of the plate though, I see ppl do VW very often just for plates. Try to /shout Qilin in PJ and they filled up pretty fast. As long as there are profit, there will be ppl doing VW as an alternative method to farm gil.

That's why I also disagree with "farm gil for empy 99 has no variety" Cuz you can do all sorts of different stuff to farm gil and build empy 99....fishing/crafting/salvage/VW/legion all offers good gil, instead of just doing one event.

[Mostfowl]

Plate prices are still hovering around 100k on Asura but the VW /sh are getting fewer and fewer. Then when you do hear a /sh for vw its nearly always qilin. Every once and awhile you see a pil or a kaggan or a /sh for a random non-plate dropping mob.

I think its mainly do to the sheer amount of time it takes to put one together, travel, get the kills done and come back. Its very easy for a vw pt to last at least 3+hrs from /sh 1 to last mob and its usually just not worth it. What is funny is a person will stay in a pt for 2 hrs while its put together but if the boss takes the party more than 5 minutes to kill ppl will force dc or drop/warp. Then you have to rep jobs and juggle ppls existing jobs and it just takes more and more time. Conflicts break out because someone wants to be a leet smarta** and totally dog on someone who makes a simple mistake which causes more ppl to drop and more jobs needing to be repped and it goes on and on. Some ppl are getting so bad in their elite attitudes in vw pts that you will see multiple ppl dropping if they join.

VW on Asura can be an ordeal most the time causing it to get less and less popular.

But overall the past couple weeks you can go a long time without anyone putting together a vw pt.

[Fupafighter]

Not on your server then. On Phoenix I have seen less VW shouts daily, plates going up to 110k rather than the old 100k, and because of that I see less. At any rate plates will fall out of the market if the Expansion is good enough, if its not then we will have a problem on our hands bigger than the plates.
Well look at it this way. Plate price is going up. Idk anyone that would buy for over 110k. We had plates up to 130 on siren and then no one was buying. Your plate price will drop down soon due to people not being able to sell.

[Fupafighter]

Plate prices are still hovering around 100k on Asura but the VW /sh are getting fewer and fewer. Then when you do hear a /sh for vw its nearly always qilin. Every once and awhile you see a pil or a kaggan or a /sh for a random non-plate dropping mob.

I think its mainly do to the sheer amount of time it takes to put one together, travel, get the kills done and come back. Its very easy for a vw pt to last at least 3+hrs from /sh 1 to last mob and its usually just not worth it. What is funny is a person will stay in a pt for 2 hrs while its put together but if the boss takes the party more than 5 minutes to kill ppl will force dc or drop/warp. Then you have to rep jobs and juggle ppls existing jobs and it just takes more and more time. Conflicts break out because someone wants to be a leet smarta** and totally dog on someone who makes a simple mistake which causes more ppl to drop and more jobs needing to be repped and it goes on and on. Some ppl are getting so bad in their elite attitudes in vw pts that you will see multiple ppl dropping if they join.

VW on Asura can be an ordeal most the time causing it to get less and less popular.

But overall the past couple weeks you can go a long time without anyone putting together a vw pt.

On siren, we just get rid of the noobs. That's what I do.

[Mostfowl]

On siren, we just get rid of the noobs. That's what I do.

Everyone makes simple mistakes now and then that dont really make that big of a difference in the battle but some ppl just cant let it go and keep going on and on and on about it. Causing ppl to get sick of listening to some jerk trolling and drop. Or some just drop cause they get bored. Regardless vw is taking forever and a day. None of my ls even bothers to start pts anymore and neither do I. Theres just too much crap to deal with.

Example. In the past 6 hrs ive been online. Only 1 vw pt /sh and it took well over an hr to get to 15/18 and im not sure if they filled, gave up or just went with 15 cause the /sh suddenly stopped.

There has been more dyna /sh lately than vw

[Plasticleg]

On siren, we just get rid of the noobs. That's what I do.

you have to lead shouts to kick people out.

and i guess that's just you, but we usually /tell them and walk them through what they need to do; that's the productive way to get things done.

[Fupafighter]

you have to lead shouts to kick people out.

and i guess that's just you, but we usually /tell them and walk them through what they need to do; that's the productive way to get things done.

I stopped leading shouts because there is this site called wiki.bluegartr.com and ffxiah.com that typically help you with all that you need to do. On ffxi, expecting a person to sit and explain how to do a fight is just counterproductive when you are trying to form a group. I don't kick people that don't understand the game, I just simply say I'm not interested. And for kicking people out, generally give them 3 strikes your out. If they can't get to the damn VW rift after 15 minutes constantly, they shouldn't be there. If they can't proc when you call a proc, they shouldn't be there. If there damage per ws is below 1k, they shouldn't be there. If they die constantly because of fanatics, they shouldn't be there. Can't call the person actually trying to win the bad guy lol. If some guy comes to your group in perle and doesn't know what his procs are, he should be doing other events first.

[Nawesemo]

V.w. is fun, when it goes well, sucks when it doesn't, plates.... Lol it aint 60k Alex's and those were to be for "casual types". Lololol, and s.e. "muhahahahahahahahhah"

[Dohati]

Generally, yes.



AKA, an extremely stupid and pointless design decision that angers and frustrates a large portion of the player base in order to appease an extremely tiny minority who's subscription fees amount to a drop in the proverbial bucket. What a sad use of limited resources and manpower.

stuff like this is designed to where it's supposed to be somewhat "unreasonable" to get to keep you playing. if you don't have anything left to work for in the game, what would you do? probably quit playing.

[Demon6324236]

stuff like this is designed to where it's supposed to be somewhat "unreasonable" to get to keep you playing. if you don't have anything left to work for in the game, what would you do? probably quit playing.

If I see something as unattainable, or a waste of time, I don't bother with it anyways. Once it goes into the realm of stupidly annoying or time taking to get, it becomes to much of a waste to bother with anyways, and instead drives me to quit sooner because its another piece of content I will not do, rather than if it were more reasonable and I would actually do it.

[TMG]

It seems there aren't a lot of people on my server taking empy's past 90. Hell, I'm surprised to even see them at 90 here. The price has been dropping some recently because there's just too many on the market. It's not worth it to a lot of people, myself included. You can buy an entire relic weapon (75 version) for the cost of the HMP stage and still have money to spare for a couple umbral marrows. I would be all over it if the number was more like 500-750. I personally won't bother buying HMPs until I have absolutely nothing else left to do in this game, and at that point I'd probably be ready to quit anyway. I've been saving whatever I get from VW and am currently at 71 plates without buying any, nor exclusively farming NMs that drop them.

[Sargent]

My interpretation on the scenario:

Pre-Abyssea, you could sponsor for Dynamis or pay/farm for Alex (90m Mythic nostalgia etc). No doubt about it, these weapons were made for the players who strive to be the best and were willing to put a mass of effort in for it.

Lv.80 arrives, Visions comes out. Emps come out, they're a pain to get (talking about the 80 version). People didn't have atma, so many of the mobs were difficult, people didn't know about the proc pattern. Emps were more or less on par with Relic/Mythics, aside the fact that at this point they were still free.
Lv.85. Second Atma comes, out, Razed Ruins comes out, people discover proc patterns. Emps are actually getting made, though it's slow. Now they become less on par with Relic/Mythics, and edge towards that casual side.
Lv.90. Reraise whenever you want (if you set it). Mob too hard? Brew it? Third atma, Abyssea doees for the most part become easy mode. Emp's are now a whole different ballpark to obtain in comparison to Relics/Mythics in the way that anyone can make one, all it takes is the effort. Mythics become borderline impossible due to lack of interest in Salvage and the non soloability of the event.
Lv.95: Plates. Now you need gil.

Long winded but the point is, personally I don't think making an Emp should have been this easy in the first place. Back when Glavoid was difficult, Bri required the better part of an alliance to make it was a genuine challenge, but Abyssea became unbalanced.
Now SE decide to "balance" it by making the 95+ stage more or less demand gil. Sounds like a severe lack of planning to me. The harder part should have come first, which it did. It just got made easy, so SE now "balance" that by effectively making Dynamis soloable.

[Camiie]

stuff like this is designed to where it's supposed to be somewhat "unreasonable" to get to keep you playing. if you don't have anything left to work for in the game, what would you do? probably quit playing.

That's why it's better for them to produce a larger number of short-term goals rather than, or in addition to, a few long-term ones. Instead of giving me one carrot to chase that's held out too far for me to ever reach, give me a trail of carrots to follow where each one can be reached reasonably but there is always another to go for.

Of course since the devs are the ultimate "lazy casuals," they won't like that idea too much no matter how much more enjoyable it makes the game for the majority of paying customers.

[Winrie]

Firstly I think simple adjustments such as adding heavy metal pouches and singles to other higher tier vw mobs would help a lot, and giving singles a "can drop 1~3 singles" style, not just one always. Those simple fixes would ultimay help imho. However all of this talk about how low the rates are I'm not understanding, personally when I do qilin out of every 6 I'm getting one pouch most every time, and as far as t3 go it's almost always a single metal if no body. And making Gil for them isn't even an issue, cruor from farming the metals themselves on vw, pulse cells, on top of every other Gil maker mentioned in this thread I won't elaborate on. As for trouble getting groups together ect, well that's player fault, ppl need to grow up and stop trolling ppl on easy mode mmorpg, and also it's the fault of drop rates, that's SEs issue they need to fix, that they prolly never will. So in a sense 1500 isn't unobtainable by any means granted groups are running, however the frequency of metal needs to he touched, our options are too few for the decline in interest of vw for it's crap drop rates and 18 man reqs for procs, why not let cities t4 drop them too? They are low mannable, and consume jus as much time to farm. SE did say empys are the casual players ultimate weapon and it is, anyone in this game can make easy, camp some nm, get your friends or shout and spam, common day ppl can get all the empy items within a week or less to take one weapon from 80 to 90. Most every item set to get the weapon to 80 takes a day to two maximum, and Thats just a couple hrs a day. Same holds true for taking weapons from 80-85, then one KI mobs for 85-90. That's why you have a 1500 req. Because a 90 empy is damn fine weapon even at 99. It's easy and takes literally no time compared to relics and mythics. SE also did state trials post 90 were based on the difficulty of obtaining the actual item. Complaining about ppl who have 95 empy+ talking about how they have no life or such, too much gil ect, makes the ppl complaining about it look just as bad as the people they slander for already finishing, simply put because you want it too, well get to it, they did. If there's no vw shouts make one, if you can't be bothered, leave the weapon at 90, it isn't gimp. Or just jump on the relic train, most are better anyway and completely soloable.

[Babekeke]

This whole thread is a troll, right?

Right?

[Kincard]

One thing I will agree with is that the 1500-plate investment, considering the reward (A few points of base damage and +2 stat), is pretty laughable. But I really don't think the investment of 1500 plates itself is unreasonable if they consider relics, mythics, and empyreans to be approximately the same level of difficulty (Insert some comment about mythics being totally balanced here). While I wouldn't say I'm a super-casual player or anything, I only have 2 empyrean weapons myself, with one being only at 85, and no relics or mythics, which is less than any "insane-no-life-poopsocking-filthy-stinkin-player-that-can-get-stuff-I-can't-I'm-totally-not-jealous" has.

It costs about 150M to finish the plate trial (180M if you decide to buy plates at 120k each- more on that later). Frankly, that's not much more expensive than getting a relic to even the first usable stage. Compare to one of the easier Relics to currently obtain, Apoc, which is about 120M. The fact that Empyreans can be usable without any gil investment (barring obvious things like mercing) at all already makes them a lot more reasonable than Relics or Mythics.

So, we've established that the gil investment isn't that much more unreasonable than relics, at the very least. So now we talk about the actually supply of plates.

Well, I recently finished collecting my 1500 plates, and I'm really wondering if we've all been browsing the same bazaars, because I have on numerous occasions seen many, many plates selling for 110k, 120k, or even higher in bazaars, that I decided to pass on because I'm not made of gil. If you are willing to put down the gil you could probably get all 1500 plates easily just spending maybe a week or two browsing bazaars in upper jeuno for about 20 minutes a day, so this whole "there's not enough in the supply of plates!" is pure fantasy from people who are simply unwilling to pay above a certain price for something...so if that's the case, that's more of a problem with you and not with the actual amount required. Besides, supply/demand, etc, etc. If they made plates easier by either raising the drop rate or lowering the required amount, it'll just mean more people will do 95/99 and the price wouldn't really change much, a lot like what happened with ancient currency. The times in the game's history when the price on something crashed significantly is when there was basically a complete redesign to how the item was obtained, such as TK.

I will submit that it's possible this will change in the future when VW stops being done, but of course, that's completely speculation- they can simply change the game when that does happen, if it ever does.

All that being said, I wouldn't really complain if they lowered the requirement, just makes it easier/possible for me to finish any new weapons I end up making. I just don't understand the people that bellyache it's impossible or unreasonable when it's probably still the most attainable of any of the ultimate weapons. With the marrow cost of relics factored in it is still cheaper to get a 99 empyrean than any other weapon.

By the way, if they adjust only plates and not the rift-items, prepare your anuses for Riftdross/Riftcinder being even more expensive than they are right now, then we'll get to complain about that instead.

[Helel]

I do dynamis 5 days a week as my only source of gil. Dynamis is 2-hours long. I have two empyreans 95+ (armageddon is 99 and almace 95), an annihilator 99 (buying the marrows), as well as an aegis 95, and other free empyreans. All it takes is 2-hours a day . . . If you're complaining about that then maybe you shouldn't be playing a MMO in the first place.

[Camiie]

If you're complaining about that then maybe you shouldn't be playing a MMO in the first place.

Or play one with less pointless nonsense.

[Ryanx]

1500 plates and 60 of the item after make it equivilant to a relic 99 so it is totaly fair

[Kincard]

Obviously lots of people don't find it pointless because lots of people are able to finish it, and bother doing so. It's clear you're only complaining because you can't/don't want to finish it.

Besides, the upgrade from 90 to 95/99 Empyrean is a nice chunk of Damage, but hardly required for most of the Empyreans to be useful anyway, so it's not like you got bamboozled into starting a weapon that's now useless. You're just making it hard on yourself by setting goals you can't finish but plenty of other people are able to.

[Demon6324236]

I want a lv99 Almace, simply for the fact I want lv99 of all the weapons my RDM can use. Also I like Almace, and I plan to use it still. The problem is the same here as I have with making a Mythic weapon. How can I justify to myself spending so much money for 5 levels on a weapon I already have, instead of just making a Relic for another of my jobs so that it is better too? To put it another way, look at what jobs I play. I play RDM & DRK as my main jobs I play. My RDM currently has Excalibur & Almace, my DRK has a Hoarfrost & Wroth Scythe. I would like to 99 my Almace but I end up looking at my jobs and I cant help but think that instead I should get a Rag or Apoc, I also cant help but feel that I should spend money to buff another job, rather than just buff up my already good jobs.

Its not that I don't want to make a lv99 Almace, I really do, but I just cant reasonably do it for this cost. If they made them drop in normal slots as well as where good items drop, might be a different story, I might get to farm them myself rather than buy them, in which case I have less of a problem, but right now to farm them I would probably have to spam Qilin all day every day for a week or 2 it seems, then I might have gotten lucky enough to get my plates.

[Shadowsong]

Or play one with less pointless nonsense.

Correct, you can leave anytime you want.

[Camiie]

However all of this talk about how low the rates are I'm not understanding, personally when I do qilin out of every 6 I'm getting one pouch most every time, and as far as t3 go it's almost always a single metal if no body.

Even with 3x rubicund cells and maxed red every fight, I'm not seeing a pouch once every 6 fights or a plate almost every fight. Your numbers are abnormally high in my experience. I don't doubt you're getting them, I just don't think your experience matches everyone else.


Obviously lots of people don't find it pointless because lots of people are able to finish it, and bother doing so. It's clear you're only complaining because you can't/don't want to finish it.

How many people is "lots?"

[Demon6324236]

Out of my last 18 Qilin, I have gotten 1 pouch. I am doing more today, Ill see how many I get since I will be spamming it all day, so you can see my rate at getting them, also I have all KIs/use Rubis which not everyone will have anyways, so numbers should be good I would think.

[Calysto]

However all of this talk about how low the rates are I'm not understanding, personally when I do qilin out of every 6 I'm getting one pouch most every time, and as far as t3 go it's almost always a single metal if no body.

i did dozens of quilin, and probably more than a hundred jeuno T3 (not always but often using cells)...
...yet, i never got any hmp or pouch...

aside from that lack of luck, i agree the hmp trial shouldn't be that hard. now relics are clearly easyer to get to 99 than empyreans, and while mytics are still hard(as it require nyzul/assault/eineinjar/salvage/etc), the alexandrite are somewhat easy to farm(get 2 ppl, do salvage and you'll get some) ans neo salvage will probably help too.

this trial make you have a weapon lv.90 that can be somewhat worse than one lv.99 you can buy from ah

so either lower the trial(unlikely) or increase the drops of hmp
-why do jeuno t4/5 don't drop hmp while t3/6 do ?
-why tav/aht urgan t2 and jeuno t6 don't drop pouchs instead of single ?
-why all my hmp are logs or rocks ?

[Zhronne]

Out of my last 18 Qilin, I have gotten 1 pouch. I am doing more today, Ill see how many I get since I will be spamming it all day, so you can see my rate at getting them, also I have all KIs/use Rubis which not everyone will have anyways, so numbers should be good I would think.
I didn't see a single pouch in roughly 56 Qilin runs (all maxed up).
I started wondering if drop rates were reduced since a few months ago (before Provenance was added)

Then in the last 18 runs I got two pouches.
Yai!!

Still no Coruscanti, but I'm only 0/250ish atm, I know some people 0/700 so no right to complain, do I?

[Kincard]

It's not uncommon to see at least one single plate on a T3 run, but getting a pouch every 6 Qilin runs would be pretty lucky.


How many people is "lots?"

Hundreds...Just take a look at the census, it's right there for you to see if you are so inclined. There's at least 200 99 Ukons floating around. Sure, you could argue that there's way more 99 relics floating around, but that's also because about half the work for relics goes into the first finished form, with about the other half being the marrows, so there was already a lot of finished relics ready to be upgraded when the 95/99 trials were introduced.

And if you compare that to mythics...there's like, 70 99 Burtgangs. Actually there's only about 400 99 Mythics total.

So the point to be made here is that there isn't much of a difference between the relic and empyrean difficulty in reaching 99. If your argument is that Empyreans should be easy to get to 99...well, I hate to break it to you, but it's clear that from the absurd amount of plates they required that they intended it to be difficult/annoying/"pointless" to get a empyrean past level 90.

The only two reasons I can see to be angry that you can't finish a 90 Empyrean is that you are OCD about having it "half-done", so to speak, or you think the weapon has fallen behind other, easier-to-obtain options because of the block HMP has caused. Well the latter is pretty much false (Barring maybe Caladbolg), and the former...well, if you're so determined to finish the weapon, it's obvious you should weigh your options and decide whether or not its worth your time. And if you don't think so...that was kind of the point.


Stuff

So basically you're saying you weighed the opportunity cost and decided to gear your DRK instead of completing your RDM? That's great, that's precisely what I did- except I chose the other option. How is this a problem with the trial itself?

[Demon6324236]

So basically you're saying you weighed the opportunity cost and decided to gear your DRK instead of completing your RDM? That's great, that's precisely what I did- except I chose the other option. How is this a problem with the trial itself?

There isn't alot of incentive to make 1 job a little better by adding a few levels to a single weapon, instead of making an entirely new weapon instead and getting it to the exact same level, while taking less overall money & work. To make an Emp to 90 takes probably about 5 times longer than the trials for a Relic after you obtain it at 75. The money to make an Emp go that extra mile to 95 is a big 150+Mil, while to obtain a Base Relic is 120~130Mil. So Relics are easier to get to 95 by default, and cheaper, there is almost no incentive to make an Emp 95~99 because of that cost. A WAR could make Ukon 95, or they could just make a Rag 95, and get that for MS & Reso, DRKs could get themselves a lv95 Calad, or instead, make Apoc so they have a good Scythe, or better yet, Rag. SAM could make Masa95, or instead a Relic GK or Bow. I made Excalibur, rather than Almace95, the list goes on.

Making an Emp95 is not a bad idea, but its not something I see as a good idea either. Its not only a choice between 1 job or another, but in weapons as I said with a DRK, between a Calad95 or a Rag95, with Apoc as well, and a SAM with the same questions. In my opinion, Emps should not be the same as Relics, they messed that up already. Emps start easy, and once they get to 90, they hit a wall, thats when most start on a Relic, and use the Emps as hold overs.

[Shadowsong]

Ill repeat the question;
Just because YOU chose to spread the love between your jobs and weapon types, why is this a problem with the Trials?
So you are telling me its more effort to fully complete a job than it is to go half way? SHOCKING!

[Demon6324236]

Ok, the reason its a problem is because it often leads to Emps becoming a stepping stone, leaving the later trials meaningless and untouched. Looking at Emps only 3 are worth taking to 99, Vere, Ukon, and Gandiva. Other than them, there is almost no reason to take an Emp to 99 because the Relics are simply better thanks to Merit WSs. So to answer the question, what is the problem with the trials? Its that in most cases, it is not worth the effort to do the trials, because an easier weapon can be made which is more beneficial to you anyways.

Edit:Sorry, Arma is worth it as well I suppose.

[Camiie]

Hundreds...Just take a look at the census, it's right there for you to see if you are so inclined. There's at least 200 99 Ukons floating around.

That's not lots, IMO.


Sure, you could argue that there's way more 99 relics floating around, but that's also because about half the work for relics goes into the first finished form, with about the other half being the marrows, so there was already a lot of finished relics ready to be upgraded when the 95/99 trials were introduced.

And if you compare that to mythics...there's like, 70 99 Burtgangs. Actually there's only about 400 99 Mythics total.

So the point to be made here is that there isn't much of a difference between the relic and empyrean difficulty in reaching 99.

They're totally different processes. They don't need to be balanced against or compared to each other.


If your argument is that Empyreans should be easy to get to 99...well, I hate to break it to you, but it's clear that from the absurd amount of plates they required that they intended it to be difficult/annoying/"pointless" to get a empyrean past level 90.

I know what they intended. I'm saying the intentions themselves are wrong. Just because it's "working as intended" according to SE, doesn't make it right. The devs can be just as wrong as anyone, and they often are.


The only two reasons I can see to be angry that you can't finish a 90 Empyrean is that you are OCD about having it "half-done", so to speak, or you think the weapon has fallen behind other, easier-to-obtain options because of the block HMP has caused.

Thanks for the OCD diagnosis Doctor. Would you like to prescribe some medicine or treatment while you're at it? Also, thanks for letting me know that I'm angry. I honestly wasn't aware I was, but obviously Doctor knows best.


Well the latter is pretty much false (Barring maybe Caladbolg), and the former...well, if you're so determined to finish the weapon, it's obvious you should weigh your options and decide whether or not its worth your time. And if you don't think so...that was kind of the point.

And I think "the point" is wrong. Going from 75 whatevers to 1500 plates is just bait and switch absurdity. You even used the word absurd yourself. The only purpose it serves is to make a handful of people feel like they've done something special. I don't see that as a worthwhile purpose.

[Nawesemo]

Lol, "worthwhile" friends, family, job. Ok then carry on.

Edit: I'm not mocking the "us"s that are , but am the idea of the meger improvement, vs cost. In other words, f me its a lot, but we are what we are, and are going to try. Gs empy to 99 or bust. (Yeah ls thinks I'm nuttz too) reread that amd didnt mean it how it came across.

[Zhronne]

While it's perfectly understandable that SE is trying to make so the level 99 version of Relic/Mythic/Empy have more or less the same level of difficulty to obtain, considering the whole process (we're almost there with Relic/Empy, hopefully Mythic will join the club soon as well) I think most people are feeling butthurt.
Not blaming SE, from a game-design point of view this is one of those choices that will make a certain part of the player-base very unhappy but, in the long run, will probably be for the best for all of us.

At the same time though, it's easy to empathize with players who feel disappointed, and it's easy to point the finger against SE if not for the action they decided to undertake, for the TIMING they chose to do it. I.e. way later than they should have.
But we older players all know how notoriously SLOW they have always been in reacting to any possible thing than in another MMO would have been dealt with with the utmost priority.


I mean, first they give you a powerful weapon (Empies were unrightfully and mostly insanely more powerful than the, back then, still hard to obtain Relics/Mythics) that's very very easy to obtain, luring a lot of players with the stick & carrot of "come on! Keep playing! We have this awesome new toy for you!".
At the same time this was an incredibly out-of-taste way of trolling the players who had already obtained a Relic/Mythic back then (which were a large minority compared to the total number of players).
So yeah, this part of the whole picture is pretty despicable because I can understand how players got "lured" into Empies and then got fucked up with the 90>95 trial, all of a sudden.


You can understand why it *HAD* to happen, and you can agree it's likely the best choice SE could make (alas too late) but at the same time you can still feel the pain behind and you feel almost "tricked".

[Fupafighter]

Ok, the reason its a problem is because it often leads to Emps becoming a stepping stone, leaving the later trials meaningless and untouched. Looking at Emps only 3 are worth taking to 99, Vere, Ukon, and Gandiva. Other than them, there is almost no reason to take an Emp to 99 because the Relics are simply better thanks to Merit WSs. So to answer the question, what is the problem with the trials? Its that in most cases, it is not worth the effort to do the trials, because an easier weapon can be made which is more beneficial to you anyways.

Edit:Sorry, Arma is worth it as well I suppose.
Twash? Masamune? Armageddon? Daurdaubla? Almace? Do you know your weapons lol? Masa > amano. Arma is cor only good weapon besides mythic. Brds should have daurdaubla. And who wouldn't do it if they had the gil and nothing else to spend it on to get that 4th song. Oh also dnc gets twashtar as it's only easily obtainable 99 shiney too. Also did you forget that empy users can use merit weaponskills too, most times better than relic users? 20 attribute on a weapon is alot for a mod. And any serious ranger will tell you that gandiva is not that great compared to annihalator. Thus gandiva isn't worth taking to 99 unless you enjoy shooting lightning bolts. Learn the jobs and stop complaining things aren't worth it. Plates aren't hard. You all should just stop buying cells if your goal is plates. Convert the cruor you get from kills to gil and buy plates with that spare gil. YOu can average around 2-3 plates a run of 6 easily with just buying stones. I never use cells unless I'm after a glowy weapon. All cells do imo is allow higher qualities items to drop (lux fajin), which most of you don't want anymore. I feel like I have good drop rates on pouches w.o cells. I'll start recording more, but I had one run where I got 2 w.o cells. Then next run got one. Then next I got 2 again. It's really not about the cells when it comes to plates from what I have seen the past few months. Getting alot less freakin gorgets and fajin boots too.

[Demon6324236]

Twash?I don't see any Emp for a non-Heavy DD job as worth it to get to 95+ because chances are you will not be using it enough for something you would actually need a lv99 Emp for. DNC isn't brought as a DD for VW, Legion, or NNI, as such, not really a job I would count as worthwhile to obtain a lv99 Emp for. However if you just like DNC, sure, its good I suppose.
Masamune?So far as I understand, the 2.5x damage on normal attacks, along with not having to gimp your WS damage to gain that effect, put Amano ahead, not to mention the fact that you get the accuracy, which I am often told that accuracy becomes a problem in higher level VW, and I would guess Legion as well, even though I have never had these problems myself.
Armageddon?I included this afterwords, because I originally forgot about it. But I agree, its good, thats why I went back and edited it.
Daurdaubla?I admit, I forgot this as well, and actually this is imo probably the only Emp I would take to 99, and possibly Ochain as well(seeing as it gives nearly unlimited MP with a good PLD)
Almace?The only time I can think of, you would need a lv99 Emp but have a BLU, PLD, or RDM, is NNI, and thats only a BLU. So the idea of making a lv99 Emp for a single event for a single job, seems rather pointless. Outside of that I see not much reason for one of these jobs to have a lv99 Emp sword, especially when between the jobs, the best suited for Almace is BLU, where as RDM & PLD can make good use of Excalibur instead.
Also did you forget that empy users can use merit weaponskills too, most times better than relic users? 20 attribute on a weapon is alot for a mod.Take a look at this list...

Shijin is DEX - Vere is STR
Exent is AGI - Twash is DEX
Req is MND - Almace is DEX
Reso is STR - Calad is VIT
Ruin is STR - Farsha is STR/CHR, with weaker mods
Upheav is VIT - Ukon is STR
Entropy is INT - Redem is STR/MND
Stardiver is STR - Rhongo is VIT
Shun is DEX - Kannagi is AGI
Shoha is STR - Masa is STR, these actually match up well
Realm is MND - Gamba is... HP/MP?
Shatter is INT - Hver is... MP?
Apex is AGI - Gandiva is DEX
Last Stand is AGI - Arma is AGI, these match up

Let me ask you, do YOU know your weapons? Last I checked, 3 of these Emps have mods the same as the Merit WSs, making them the only 3 out of 14 to be even possibly better for the merit WS. As I said before, so far as I understand, thats still not always the case.


And any serious ranger will tell you that gandiva is not that great compared to annihalator. Thus gandiva isn't worth taking to 99 unless you enjoy shooting lightning bolts.If I knew any good RNG, I would ask them, and get some input. From what I have always seen, I see RNGs with Gandiva, and see them pumping out shit loads of damage, I can not recall seeing an Anni RNG in action, ever, so not alot of room for me to compare. With the numbers I have seen however, I thought it best to put it in the list of worthy upgrades.
Learn the jobs and stop complaining things aren't worth it.Ill tell you what you told me in the past, I don't need to know the jobs to see the numbers. And not alot of Emps seem worth it, however I will change my list a bit seeing as you did make a few good points about some, and reminded me about the Harp.
Plates aren't hard.This isn't a matter of difficulty, its a matter of... how shall I word it, a leap of stupidity. As I said before, Emps are easy till 90 and most of the time become a serious stepping stone into the realm of Relics, because they are (most of the time) good weapons at that point, but then people make a Relic instead, and leave the Emp behind. I have seen this many times, and have done it myself with Almace>Excalibur. In my opinion, the balance between a Relic and an Emp weapon was broken as soon as you could get level 90 easily. Trying to create a fix to that now, seems to have just increased the number of Relics, and reduced the number of Emps which will ever reach a high level, which moved Relics to the now dominate form of weapon in end game from what I have seen.

As for my revised list of Emps worth getting to 99...

Vere, Shijin is nothing next to VS in damage except for maybe on PUP thanks to its load of DEX gear, however they still seem to be fairly even outside of Abyssea, for MNK however, this weapon skill is just about as good as it gets.

Ukon, has possible one of the best WSs in the entire game, Upheav has no way of toping this in damage unless coupled with Mighty Strikes.

Masamune, given that accuracy isn't needed, the +20 STR from the weapon itself would be great for Shoha, and you shouldn't pass up the good Skillchain abilities that Fudo has, that is severely lacking with Shoha's terrible Fragmentation/Compression properties.

Arma, has a great Magic based WS, and shares the same mod as Last Stand, the best WSs for a COR, with this giving a big ol +20 AGI to help them both, it is worth the price for any COR who wants to put out big numbers, and not just the DDs they buff.

Daurdabla, the best buffing tool in the game, definitely worth getting to 99 thanks to the effects of yet another song from a single BRD, allowing 1 BRD to give a wide range of buffs, without taking extra spaces in the party.

Ochain, not only a great block rate, and mitigation of damage, but the shield at 99 gives so much MP back from the damage you take that a well geared PLD becomes nearly invincible with this, because a well geared PLD can recover almost 50% of the damage they take, back as MP, and then use that to cure them for much more than double the MP cost, providing a very worthy investment given the player has the ability to put it to use.


These are the Emps I see as worth while, Gandiva was removed because apparently the Relic is better, however, if it is infact as good, or better than the Relic, I would put it on the list as well.

[Camiie]

Not blaming SE, from a game-design point of view this is one of those choices that will make a certain part of the player-base very unhappy but, in the long run, will probably be for the best for all of us.

I'm just not sure I see how this is the case. Could you explain what you mean by it being best for all of us? I'm not being a smart aleck here. I truly don't get it.

[Kincard]

Ok, the reason its a problem is because it often leads to Emps becoming a stepping stone, leaving the later trials meaningless and untouched. Looking at Emps only 3 are worth taking to 99, Vere, Ukon, and Gandiva. Other than them, there is almost no reason to take an Emp to 99 because the Relics are simply better thanks to Merit WSs. So to answer the question, what is the problem with the trials? Its that in most cases, it is not worth the effort to do the trials, because an easier weapon can be made which is more beneficial to you anyways.

Edit:Sorry, Arma is worth it as well I suppose.

Most of the weapons actually get a pretty sizable boost going from 90 to 99 (As I mentioned earlier, people keep complaining about HMP without even bringing up Riftcinder and Riftdross...if they only adjust HMP the price on those two is going to skyrocket, as if they weren't expensive enough already, when that time comes are you going to complain about that too?), because they get enough base damage to get at least 1 weapon rank (A bunch of the two-handers get two weapon ranks, in fact). The weapons that arn't nearly as good/surpass corresponding relics are either mediocre or garbage to begin with (Farsha/Hver/Gamb/Redemp/Rhongo...well I guess for that last one Gungnir is pretty lol too), Daurdabla gets an extra song of course, though there's no known reason to take Ochain past 90 aside from just liking Paladin that much.

I understand what you're saying though, there's an unbalance between the difficulty/reward of obtaining 80/85/90 and 95/99, with the 95/99 stages costing a lot for comparatively small upgrades. Of course, that's also a good thing- because that means your level 90 weapons (Again, like I said, barring Caladbolg) that were good to begin with...are still good, because you don't have to do the 95/99 trials to make the weapon useful. Insane investment/reward ratios arn't exactly new to this game. I'd understand the complaint more if your level 90 weapon now gathers dust because of the HMP cockblock, but that just doesn't happen with most of them.

So, if your argument is one of practicality, well...just continue getting better weapons if you feel other things are more worth your time. I decided to upgrade a Kannagi to 99 despite you thinking it's one of the weapons that doesn't benefit much from it (It actually does), and I passed on using that time to upgrade one of my numerous other jobs instead, or getting a Kikoku to 95/99, or hell, just building up another Empyrean that gets way more out of the plates and dross I used, like an Ukon, simply because I like Ninja and I like the Kannagi over the other NIN weapons.

The only way to fix the "balance" of the difficulty of each Empyrean trials without changing the overall difficulty would be to slot the HMP trial into the 80->85 stage and shift all the other trials over one spot, or to spread the 1500 plates over the 4 or 5 trials...I seriously doubt any of you want either one to happen. As it stands, relatively casual players (I know lots of actual casual players that don't have any Empyreans at all, actually) can get their weapons to the 90 stage with no gil investment whatsoever, and that's already a really good weapon for casuals to obtain.


They're totally different processes. They don't need to be balanced against or compared to each other.

So what you're saying is you want them to nerf Empyrean weapons while making them easier to finish, because that's essentially what you're saying here. A huge complaint leveled at Empyreans when they first came out was that they were much less investment for stomping all over relics/mythics that took way more time by comparison. I have no doubt the voidwatch trials were created with this in mind.


I know what they intended. I'm saying the intentions themselves are wrong. Just because it's "working as intended" according to SE, doesn't make it right. The devs can be just as wrong as anyone, and they often are.

Except you still haven't made any actual arguments as to why it's "wrong" aside from "I can't finish it, therefore it must be unreasonable". Any actually compelling-sounding arguments made have been essentially debunked.

It's already been stated by people, you included, that the investment of price/time investment isn't an issue. Well, sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't, I guess it depends on whatever is convenient for you at any given moment.

It's been debunked that there is a lack of supply of plates (at least at this point in time), because any perusal of bazaars in Jeuno will yield literally hundreds of (albeit potentially overpriced, though that's a problem with players themselves) plates at almost any time of day. It just depends on if you're willing to put the gil down.


Thanks for the OCD diagnosis Doctor. Would you like to prescribe some medicine or treatment while you're at it? Also, thanks for letting me know that I'm angry. I honestly wasn't aware I was, but obviously Doctor knows best.

I wasn't being literal, but I guess I overestimated you.


The only purpose it serves is to make a handful of people feel like they've done something special.

You mean like everything else in this game? All I'm hearing is still "I can't finish it, it's unfair that other people can and I can't".


You can understand why it *HAD* to happen, and you can agree it's likely the best choice SE could make (alas too late) but at the same time you can still feel the pain behind and you feel almost "tricked".

Yes, except as has been said numerous times, the level 90 weapons are still incredibly powerful weapons unless it was one of the crappy ones to being with (Gamba/Hver/etc), so while it might be a bit annoying you can't "finish", it's not like you have a useless weapon now because you can't.

If it bothers you that much, then start saving up and finish it- that's what I did, and I'm pretty sure I have less total relic/empyrean weapons than pretty much every person in this thread, so this whole "only poopsocking losers can finish!" mentality is more born from laziness rather than it actually being true. It's great to mischaracterize the people that did finish when it serves your purposes though, I guess!

So let me recap basically how this discussion has gone:
"HMP/Rift trials are impossible to complete except for poopsocking 1% losers!"
"Well, no not really, I'm not really a hardcore player and I could finish it"
"Uh, well, there's a lack of plates!"
"Not really, there's lots to be found in Jeuno, some of it is price gouged because people know they can get away with it though."
"It's impossible to complete for me because I'm not a 1% poopsocking loser!"

[Demon6324236]

I'd understand the complaint more if your level 90 weapon now gathers dust because of the HMP cockblock, but that just doesn't happen with most of them.

See I disagree here. When looking at Emps vs Relics. If you make a Calad, you will likely upgrade to a Rag, Rag is really better in every way to a Calad even with both at 99, there is next to no reason to actually make Calad go past lv90. For Redem, if you make it, its another weapon that will likely get upto 90 at most, before you do Apoc, which far surpasses it.

I rather look at it the other way around, it happens to most of them, but a few Emps do shine above everything else. As my list above says, Vere, Ukon, Masa, Arma, Harp, and Shield, are the only 6 out of them all that I would see as worth while. This is because they are really the only ones that have the stats or WS to make them better than a Relic for their jobs, while the other 10 are not really worth putting higher than 90, because a Relic will surpass it.

The jobs this doesn't count for exactly, are BLU, COR, PUP, DNC, & SCH, however COR & PUP are covered by the worthwhile Emps, leaving BLU, DNC, and SCH. Now BLU doesn't really have much use as a Front Line Job in endgame currently, so making a lv99 Emp for the job isn't really a worthwhile thing either, the same can be said for DNC. SCH(& BLM) lets be honest, thanks to Shattersoul and Plenitas Virga, nothing short of Mythic should really be used instead of this by a mage who plans to hit things with their stick.

[Kincard]

I already listed Caladbolg as pretty much the only exception, aside from that, all the Empyreans that were good at 85/90 caps continue to be very good weapons at 99. I find it hilarious that you would bring up Redemption, because everyone already knew it was pretty disappointing compared to not just Apoc, but a bunch of other Magian Scythes as well as Twilight at 90- that's a problem with the Scythe specifically (Specifically, Quietus being a mediocre WS) and not the fact that you can't finish the HMP/Rift trial. It has just preserved its position as poorly balanced weapon, joining the ranks of Claustrum, Nagi, Murgleis and other such weapons in the SE vault of bad ideas.

11 of the 16 Empyrean weapons were seen as among the best options before the 95/99 trials came along, the five out being Rhongomiant, Redemption, Hvergelmir, Gambateinn and (arguably) Farsha. Right now, at the 99 cap, almost all 11 of those good Empyrean weapons that are still worth using in their 90 form except possibly Gandiva and Caladbolg, though the list of things that outdo them is still pretty thin.


the other 10 are not really worth putting higher than 90, because a Relic will surpass it

And of those, this was already true for a lot of them even back when the useful form of the Empyreans weapons were first introduced at 85 (Axe/Polearm/Scythe/Staff/Mace). For the ones that are useful, this is either untrue, or doesn't outdo them nearly as much as you seem to be implying.

The Mandau does outdo the Twash, but not by as much as you might think, without mentioning the fact that Twash is often the best offhand to Mandau anyway, so you'd 99 them both if you were some obsessive THF-maximizer. And why is it that the "usefulness" of a job in endgame (See your argument against Almace/Twash somehow not being worthwhile because BLU and DNC don't see a lot of melee action endgame, which...a decent Almace BLU in Voidwatch can still get their melee hits in even while having a full set of proc spells, varies with group though I suppose) only comes up when it's against making an Empyrean? I don't remember the last time I saw a THF with Mandau was taken over a WAR with an Ukon.

Almace most definitely outdoes Excalibur in most situations.

Kannagi and Kikoku have parsed very, very closely and it's pretty much the same "shit's situational, bro" stuff that has existed for years in ths game.

Gandiva sees very little use outside of Abyssea, but Yoichi sees very little use...anywhere. Compared to Annihilator anyway, unless you like firing bows on your SAM these days.

As far any mage/staff/mace relic/mythic/empyrean goes, pretty much the only ones that have ever been useful are Mjollnir (Best WHM melee club for those that like doing that, so it's not like Gambateinn somehow got screwed when everyone already knew it was a crappy weapon to start with) and a few of the Mythic mage weapons, which doesn't really factor into your whole relic VS empyrean discussion (Let's also not start a serious discussion about Hvergelmir VS Claustrum VS Plenitas Virga for melee BLMs and SCHs otherwise we might get aneurysms).

[Kysaiana]

I don't see how any empyrean wouldn't benefit from upgrading to 99. If you're saying "worth the cost?" Then none of them are. You'd pretty much have to have nothing else in the entire game you'd want to spend gil on left, including every HQ of the new abjuration gear for jobs you don't even have, before it would worth the price tag. But that's just my opinion. Some people just gotta have 99 right now, and that's fine. If not for them, no one would be able to sell plates at all.

I'm not saying that the 95 trial should be without cost or effort or whatever, but the current cost is too high to be worth it to me, and many others. This is entirely because of the rarity of HMPs from the few VW fights they can drop from. Sure some people get pouches every 5 or 6 fight run of Qilin, but I've personally gone 18 in a row without a single pouch. Crap is random. There's also the random factor to how many plates you even get in a pouch. The 99 trial suffers from the same issue as the 95 but it's a non-issue if you can't do the 95 trial, and I'd suspect people would actually do rex/ig alima/morta/bismarck if they had 95 empyreans.

To take a page from Spankwustler, I'm going paint a picture. Imagine you're on a road, call it empyrean way, driving down at a decent speed. Up ahead you see what appears to be a road block, but it's actually a 100 foot tall wall that extends 200 miles in either direction. You look at your gas and there's only a few gallons left. On the side of the road is a gas station, the only one around for days. The gas price is $700 per gallon. You have three choices: pay for the gas to get around the wall, walk around the wall, or give up. And the only thing on the other side of the wall is the same car you already have, but slightly better.

[Babekeke]

The 1 Empy that gives a far higher boost over the 95 version didn't even get a mention?

Daurdabla!

[Demon6324236]

The 1 Empy that gives a far higher boost over the 95 version didn't even get a mention?

Daurdabla!

I think its because its forgotten by alot of people, including myself. Its great, but its not something you see like Ochain, and its harder to make than any other Emp excluding Ochain, so you don't see many around really.

[Modoru]

Kannagi because any other katana sucks for mainhand besides relic [except hochomasa but people apparently don't want you using a utility katana boo]

and even then, kanna-koku combo would probably be stupid amounts of fun.

[Babekeke]

I think its because its forgotten by alot of people, including myself. Its great, but its not something you see like Ochain, and its harder to make than any other Emp excluding Ochain, so you don't see many around really.

You say it's harder than any of the others, but at least you start at the abyssea phase, so you skip out all the other NM and VNM phases which makes up for the time sink of the first 2 abyssea phases.

Funny thing about it is, lvl 90 version:

Cost: probably about 3~5 mil, buying sisyphus fragments. Not much point in buying the pops for first phase as you can farm them whilst waiting for VNMs for phase 2.
Usefulness over other instruments: +50%

lvl 99 version:

Cost: ~200 mil

Usefulness over lvl 90 version: +33% (and a little extra duration, though this only plays a part during SV really)


No other Empy is THIS MUCH better than anything else at either the level 90 stages, or the level 99 stages. But 200 mil... Mine might never reach 99.

[Demon6324236]

Thats saying its faster because it skips the worthless trials, not so much that its easier. And in either case, I was just saying I forgot about it myself, and think others may have as well when posting, because unlike Ochain which is displayed on a players character, the Harp is only used when singing. Because of that, and the fact I have only seen 4 or 5 I can recall, so it doesn't stand out much and slipped my mind. Either way this is off topic, or what I am trying to say is.