Will there be camps in the new expansion?

[Takutu]

Will there will camps similar to pre-Abyssea camps, such as Kings, CoP Wyrms, etc?

[Tile]

you want them to add a HNM that drops 1 item that everyone wants 10% of the time and is a 72 hour repop?

[Takutu]

10% is a bit high, don't you think? But otherwise, yes.

[Trisscar]

No thanks, how about we have actually engaging endgame events instead?

[Takutu]

Define: Engaging

[FrankReynolds]

Define: Engaging

en·gage   [en-geyj] verb, en·gaged, en·gag·ing.
verb (used with object)
1.
to occupy the attention or efforts of (a person or persons): He engaged her in conversation.

They should put these in on one condition. They have no drops. 0 zilch. Absolutely nothing gear or performance related.

Perhaps defeating them gives your character some shiny glow effect, or free warps to different outposts depending which ones that you have killed. Maybe a bunch of cool looking stuff to put on your farm.

No drops though. Absolutely nothing.

If my subscription fees are going to go towards something that most people will never get to experience, then it should be something that most people will not miss.

[Takutu]

Saying that everyone can't experience this is complete nonsense. Everyone has the opportunity to go to the camps, and compete. The game needs a sense of competition, and these events were one of the biggest competition driven events that also had the opportunity to yield some of the games best gear. I'm not saying all the best gear came or should come from camps, but quite a bit of it did, and should.

[Smeggles]

Oh look it's this thread again.

If you want HNM's then just unplug your keyboard infront of a ??? for 72 hours and watch it - then after 72 hours plug it back in and pop the NM. BAM HNM EXPERIENCE.

Why do people want to play a game to sit there doing nothing? Morons.

This game doesn't need competition, if you want competition go play any PvP enabled MMO or FPS or even Ballista here.

[Eyeballed]

Will there will camps similar to pre-Abyssea camps, such as Kings, CoP Wyrms, etc?

Sorry Tukutu, you've entered the realm of "If it existed before 2010, you can forget about it, because nobody wants it!"

I beg to differ here: Oh boy check out the 200+ Likes (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/40738-Highly-Notorious-Monsters)!

Anyhow, I agree with your suggestion. :)

[Takutu]

There is a very big difference between 21-24 hour HNMs, 48-72 hour HNMs, and 3-5 Day HNMs.

The 21-24 hour HNMs, a 10 minute (if it pops first window), to a 3 hour (if it pops final window) event. Guess what else was a 10min-3hour event? Every other event in the game. Between windows you can do other stuff. You don't actually have to sit at your screen staring at it.

The longer camps, were mostly camped by mules until the final window. Sure, there was people camping it themselves if they wanted a piece of gear from it, such as Gaiters. Sorry you actually had to spend time to get good pieces of gear.

I'm not saying every event should be Kings, but they were a really fun part of the game that added a lot.

[Trisscar]

Sorry Takutu, but this is a dead horse thread. Everyone I have polled in game pretty much say the same thing: we do not want this.

And variations of this exact thread crop up every now again because some narcissistic personalities just like you wanting to crow about being better than every one else. And it invariably gets shut down.

So here, I am not even going to argue the point. Instead I say "Just say no to faux PvP! Support real PvP!"

[Demon6324236]

There is a very big difference between 21-24 hour HNMs, 48-72 hour HNMs, and 3-5 Day HNMs.

The 21-24 hour HNMs, a 10 minute (if it pops first window), to a 3 hour (if it pops final window) event. Guess what else was a 10min-3hour event? Every other event in the game. Between windows you can do other stuff. You don't actually have to sit at your screen staring at it.

The longer camps, were mostly camped by mules until the final window. Sure, there was people camping it themselves if they wanted a piece of gear from it, such as Gaiters. Sorry you actually had to spend time to get good pieces of gear.

I'm not saying every event should be Kings, but they were a really fun part of the game that added a lot.

Maybe if it were 10 minutes~3hours after its last death, sure. Anything that takes roughly 24 hours to potential pop even if in windows will need you to move things around in your schedule for it, not good, or worth it. If when I am normally sleeping for work it is supposed to pop, I have to sleep weirdly just so I can be up during a time I may be able to get it, does this sound like good content? No.

[Sparthos]

Popped, Global or Event HNMs onry pls.

[Demon6324236]

Sorry Tukutu, you've entered the realm of "If it existed before 2010, you can forget about it, because nobody wants it!"

I beg to differ here: Oh boy check out the 200+ Likes (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/40738-Highly-Notorious-Monsters)!

Anyhow, I agree with your suggestion. :)

Again, you give FFXIV links as if it is something that should effect this game or as if it of some relevance to this game, it is not. Instead lets look at other posts for FFXI on this subject shall we?

This thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/24074-HNMs-and-the-future-of-FFXI) asked for HNMs, it was argued with for 29 pages or so, the final votes near the start of the thread seem to be 14 for, 39 against.

This thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/25297-Bring-back-Long-spawn-Rare-WORLD-HNM-but-put-drops-in-legion-einherjar-other-bc-also) even gave the ability to get the items from other content, Legion, or Einherjar, thus eliminating the need to do the content, while providing it still for those who want it. 14 for, 45 against, this was the final numbers for this long gone thread of last month.

This thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18977-Suggestion-How-to-reintroduce-HNMLS-gameplay-in-FFXI-Lv99‏) gave alot of info on a new idea that would attempt to stop botting and provide a fair chance to everyone, that way they can all get the NM possibly, final votes here were 12 for, 24 against.

In all of these cases the amount for is half or less than the amount of people against it. This means twice as many people say no to this content, than they do say yes. Your post gives a FFXIV thread which has little to no relevance here, sorry, but this shows the exact opposite of what you want to see, more people say no to the very existence of HNMs even if they were not needed to be done for gear, and it was added to other events.

[Eyeballed]

Again, you give FFXIV links as if it is something that should effect this game or as if it of some relevance to this game, it is not. Instead lets look at other posts for FFXI on this subject shall we?

This thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/24074-HNMs-and-the-future-of-FFXI) asked for HNMs, it was argued with for 29 pages or so, the final votes near the start of the thread seem to be 14 for, 39 against.

This thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/25297-Bring-back-Long-spawn-Rare-WORLD-HNM-but-put-drops-in-legion-einherjar-other-bc-also) even gave the ability to get the items from other content, Legion, or Einherjar, thus eliminating the need to do the content, while providing it still for those who want it. 14 for, 45 against, this was the final numbers for this long gone thread of last month.

This thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18977-Suggestion-How-to-reintroduce-HNMLS-gameplay-in-FFXI-Lv99‏) gave alot of info on a new idea that would attempt to stop botting and provide a fair chance to everyone, that way they can all get the NM possibly, final votes here were 12 for, 24 against.

In all of these cases the amount for is half or less than the amount of people against it. This means twice as many people say no to this content, than they do say yes. Your post gives a FFXIV thread which has little to no relevance here, sorry, but this shows the exact opposite of what you want to see, more people say no to the very existence of HNMs even if they were not needed to be done for gear, and it was added to other events.

My argument isn't for or against what's going on in FFXIV. It's to show that people outside the game might enjoy it in some capacity. Just as much as people have joined/returned to this game because of the changes it's undergone. If you ask me, I think the developers should stop listening to the community and just make the game they want to make. You can't please everyone and you're a fool if you try to.

[Trisscar]

My argument isn't for or against what's going on in FFXIV. It's to show that people outside the game might enjoy it in some capacity. Just as much as people have joined/returned to this game because of the changes it's undergone. If you ask me, I think the developers should stop listening to the community and just make the game they want to make. You can't please everyone and you're a fool if you try to.

True, you can't please everyone, but you can try to please the most people possible... However the majority of people don't want HNM or the like.

You didn't think that all the way through, did you?

[Reiterpallasch]

No thanks, how about we have actually engaging endgame events instead?
Like VW, where you have a ~1% chance of getting an item you really need, but that guy that doesn't need it just got his 3rd?

At least with HNM gear went to people who could use/needed/wanted the item, rather than the crap shoot that VW is.

[Trisscar]

Like VW, where you have a ~1% chance of getting an item you really need, but that guy that doesn't need it just got his 3rd?

At least with HNM gear went to people who could use/needed/wanted the item, rather than the crap shoot that VW is.

I'd rather have something like ZNM, personally.

Oh and your argument is rendered invalid by the existence of DKP. Do try again.

[Demon6324236]

My argument isn't for or against what's going on in FFXIV. It's to show that people outside the game might enjoy it in some capacity. Just as much as people have joined/returned to this game because of the changes it's undergone. If you ask me, I think the developers should stop listening to the community and just make the game they want to make. You can't please everyone and you're a fool if you try to.

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i372/demon6324236/thCABH8SWO.jpg

[Zhronne]

Uh... Been camping kings for 4 years almost everyday except when the LS was taking small breaks during summer.
On one hand I miss that kind of world, of feelings, of sensations, of competition between LSs. I miss THAT FFXI which doesn't exist anymore nowadays.

On the other hand GOD PLEASE NO, I wouldn't really want to do Kings or Tiamat or Cerberus or Hydra or Khimaira or Sandworm or anything else anymore. NO NO NO, god please no SE, don't add any mobs like that anymore :(
They wouldn't bring the old FFXI back, just the hassle of it.

[FrankReynolds]

A while back one of these threads popped up and someone said these things:


"Why do you want 24 hour pop HNMs back? So that me and my shell can dominate them with bots and force you to buy the items from us again? Fine, your loss."

and


"we used to claim kings even though we didn't need the items and then throw away the drops just to keep the selling prices high"

That is why I said:
Perhaps defeating them gives your character some shiny glow effect, or free warps to different outposts depending which ones that you have killed. Maybe a bunch of cool looking stuff to put on your farm.

No drops though. Absolutely nothing.

If my subscription fees are going to go towards something that most people will never get to experience, then it should be something that most people will not miss.


And to be clear, everyone does not have the opportunity to experience this.

People who have an HNM shell have the opportunity to stop playing the game and sit for 3~ hours a day doing nothing, while their character is in the proximity of others doing the same. At the end, one group gets the opportunity to experience this (18/2000 people currently logged on my server is < 1%) every 1-3 days.

That's just dumb. The insanity of telling your customers that you only have a few people to build content (despite the fact that the monthly bill has remained the same) and then having those few people design content that less than %1 of the players can actually enjoy is off the charts.

[hiko]

Saying that everyone can't experience this is complete nonsense. Everyone has the opportunity to go to the camps, and compete.
no, some people cant because pop window doesnt match their playing window.


There is a very big difference between 21-24 hour HNMs, 48-72 hour HNMs, and 3-5 Day HNMs.

The 21-24 hour HNMs, a 10 minute (if it pops first window), to a 3 hour (if it pops final window) event. Guess what else was a 10min-3hour event? Every other event in the game. Between windows you can do other stuff. You don't actually have to sit at your screen staring at it.


when i can play 4h a day i dont want to spent up to 3h not playing.
every other event started when we scheduled it to start.



I'm not saying every event should be Kings, but they were a really fun part of the game that added a lot.
no it was a boring event that only added the drop people get, and thousand of $ to people who made claimbots.

we cant say X event is fun/boring because what is fun is not universal.

i don't mind if they add HNM, and just hope that they are not on stupiud window


my idea for an world pop HNM: server status on window state
closed(no time min/max)
soon 30min-1h
opened 0-1h

[Aarahs]

You see a majority of players don't want HNMs. I see a full third of players do want them, more than enough for SE to implement them with desired drops. When your play window closes, it's opening for someone else.

[FrankReynolds]

You see a majority of players don't want HNMs. I see a full third of players do want them, more than enough for SE to implement them with desired drops. When your play window closes, it's opening for someone else.

Those people want them back so that they can bot them and keep all the loot from everyone else. That behavior should never be promoted in a game.

[Zhronne]

Those people want them back so that they can bot them and keep all the loot from everyone else. That behavior should never be promoted in a game's open world areas, but only in instanced ones like Uncharted Nyzul Isle where everybody can hack without the fear of getting caught and then get 15/15 within a few runs, only to complain after that all the other gear added in game sucks compared to Nyzul and they have nothing else to do in-game.
FTFY!!
(lol)

I guess it doesn't apply to all of the players, but it certainly does to the great majority! :P

[Bigrob33]

It would just be nice if the dev team would answer the people that keep posting on this topic. I mean the train wreck that always ends up happening in these threads are entertain for sure. But really it would be nice to squash this debate and wait for new topic for ppl to flame about.

[Catmato]

The right way to do HNM:
Make them respawn at a completely random time. Could be one minute, could be three days, could be 8 months. Makes more sense for the most "elusive" enemies to not show up on a schedule.

Edit 1: Oh, and put it in an abyssea-like area with a time limit so you can't have mules afk-ing at it.
Fake edit 2: Ooh, and let it pop in multiple zones like that ala DI and SW so it's even harder to bot.

[Sparthos]

It should pop in Port Jeuno so all the AFKers hogging up my screen and lagging me can scurry out of the zone while the pros handle it.

[Trisscar]

The right way to do HNM:

Don't do it.


Fixed that for you.

[Luvbunny]

I think they should make it that you can pop it using key item or pop items purchasable by points once per week. This way everyone who want to pop it can do it, but only once per week. Though they probably will make the drop luck based again and rare/ex otherwise these NMs will be abused in short time and most people will be done with them.

[Trisscar]

I think they should make it that you can pop it using key item or pop items purchasable by points once per week. This way everyone who want to pop it can do it, but only once per week. Though they probably will make the drop luck based again and rare/ex otherwise these NMs will be abused in short time and most people will be done with them.

I have made a similar suggestion, where you trade trophies from lesser NM for an HNM tribute that allows you to entice them from hiding.

[FrankReynolds]

Someone nailed it in another thread and I can't find the post, so I'll just repeat it.

If you want the old HNM experience back, just take your whole shell to any VW Abysea or w/e ??? that you feel like. Have some one /random. If the random number is greater than 990, pop the monster and kill it. If the number is less than 990, wait 30 minutes and then have the person / random again. Repeat this process once every thirty minutes until you have gotten a number over 990, or 3 hours has passed. If after 3 hours you haven't rolled a 990, leave and come back tomorrow.

[Demon6324236]

Someone nailed it in another thread and I can't find the post, so I'll just repeat it.

If you want the old HNM experience back, just take your whole shell to any VW Abysea or w/e ??? that you feel like. Have some one /random. If the random number is greater than 990, pop the monster and kill it. If the number is less than 990, wait 30 minutes and then have the person / random again. Repeat this process once every thirty minutes until you have gotten a number over 990, or 3 hours has passed. If after 3 hours you haven't rolled a 990, leave and come back tomorrow.
1) Take your group and stand by the ??? of a pop NM.

2) alliance leader types /random

3) if you got 150 or less, he/she pops the NM

4) if you got 151 or more, you wait 30 mins and repeat steps 2-4

5) if after 3 hours (the 7th time you would /random) you haven't got under 150, you pop it anyway.

6) wait 21 hours from the ToD and repeat from 1)I believe this is what you were looking for good sir.

[Damane]

Saying that everyone can't experience this is complete nonsense. Everyone has the opportunity to go to the camps, and compete. The game needs a sense of competition, and these events were one of the biggest competition driven events that also had the opportunity to yield some of the games best gear. I'm not saying all the best gear came or should come from camps, but quite a bit of it did, and should.

Because we all know how kings worked out riiiiight....
was there... done it for 3 years. no thx I am done with camping forever. Such shity endgame design should never be implemented anymore.

[SpankWustler]

One day, this topic and the "People-be-leeching-experience-yo" topic are going to breed. They're just meant for each other. I shudder to think what the child of that passionate and disgusting union will be.

This topic has been made about a dozen times. It's been locked a half-dozen of those times because there's not that much to discuss and thus both sides just started messing with each other. The Development Bros barely listen to anybody even when they ask for input, so I'm not sure what the point of making this topic again could be, other than just to mess with people.

If you actually want to camp Neo-Arch-Fafnir for hours and have the cleanest house on the block, I recommend appearing naked in whatever field the Development Bros are frolicking to celebrate their summer vacation and communicating your ideas through modern dance. That seems about their speed, and it doesn't involve making this damn topic again.

[Camiie]

Like VW, where you have a ~1% chance of getting an item you really need, but that guy that doesn't need it just got his 3rd?

At least with HNM gear went to people who could use/needed/wanted the item, rather than the crap shoot that VW is.

What does that have to do with monster spawn conditions? You can still have a common treasure pool without 21-72+ hour NM spawns. Or are you saying only the people who are willing to sit with their thumbs up their <Rear> for hours on end can use/want/need good gear.

[Plasticleg]

may altana bless spank for all of his posts.

that was a lot of martini

[Reiterpallasch]

I'd rather have something like ZNM, personally.

Oh and your argument is rendered invalid by the existence of DKP. Do try again.
Oops sorry "goes to people who earned it". Better?

I don't get why people don't understand that they can do both, similar to how some of the past HNM gear also dropped from events like einherjar. Just because the majority doesn't want something doesn't mean they can't please the rest as well. Pretty sure not very many people wanted bell commands/chocobo circuit/pankration/etc but we got it anyways.

Just because you fail at claiming and/or wouldn't know what to do with the mob if you got your hands on it, doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the game.

Don't wanna camp HNM? Don't @#$%ing camp HNM.

[Trisscar]

Oops sorry "goes to people who earned it". Better?


No. This doesn't reward people who have 'earned' it, any more than any other event. If a person with useful jobs, geared appropriately, caped skills and is very helpful towards the shell but has two jobs, is a full time student and can't attend 100% they're naturally at a disadvantage over some jobless virgin with a huge sense of self entitlement living in their moms basement and can thus attend 100%...

But I suppose that appeals to you. Hmm, I wonder why that can be?

[Camiie]

Oops sorry "goes to people who earned it". Better?

"People who earned it" is rather subjective.


I don't get why people don't understand that they can do both, similar to how some of the past HNM gear also dropped from events like einherjar.

Einherjar wasn't always there. For YEARS, that gear was exclusive to HNM. If you couldn't or wouldn't do HNM you didn't have a shot at it. And, I've never seen Odin produce a Ridill or a D.ring, have you? Even now, stuff is generally still exclusive to the event it starts out with. Ok, AF3 seals do drop from other events, but I'm not seeing Legion gear in VW or Neo-Nyzul gear in WoE or vice versa.


Just because the majority doesn't want something doesn't mean they can't please the rest as well. Pretty sure not very many people wanted bell commands/chocobo circuit/pankration/etc but we got it anyways.

You're really comparing those things to what was once endgame?


Just because you fail at claiming and/or wouldn't know what to do with the mob if you got your hands on it, doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the game.

Most of the people who despise HNM participated in it quite often and quite successfully. We don't hate it because we failed at it. We didn't fail at it. We hate it because it really, really sucked. It wasn't fun standing around waiting for something to happen.

Imagine standing around for 30minutes-3hours waiting for Bowser or Dr. Wily to randomly decide to show himself. Now imagine that Luigi or Proto Man are standing there along side you waiting to kill the boss themselves. If they touch it before you, you don't get your chance. The game then locks you out from trying again until 21 hours have passed. If you can't play during that window of time, you're just screwed until the next 21 hours have passed because somewhere in the ether your virtual rival and your main enemy are still going to be doing their thing.

Does that really sound like Game of the Year material to you?

[tyrantsyn]

I hate to think of a FF world that lack giant critter's didn't pop up from time to time. There is some awesome about being along traveling threw a zone and than sudden a 500 ton Wrym appears. Don't get me wrong "I don't want old world HNM's."

Perhaps some new system could be place in like a quest. Where you would talk to a npc in town. And than some where random in a zone your monster would pop. Alliance's flag for the quest could than all branch out searching for it. And only those player's that are flag could lay claim to it.

IDK if the whole searching thing would bring back the nostalgia of the HNM hunt. But the idea behind this would allow all players to get a chance at loot and drops. And add a bit of adventure by searching the mob out.

[FrankReynolds]

I'm sure someone already mentioned it, but the HNM doesn't have to drop loot. If your looking for world spawns that surprise you, or block a path or something forcing players to team up and beat the baddy, that's fine. That's fun even. But using them as a means to distribute really good gear, even 1 single piece of good gear, is a bad idea.

In the case of adding the same gear to some other event like einherjar: That still poses several issues. Finding a linkshell that does certain events on your schedule can be just as hard as getting an HNM to pop during said window. Not only that, but it still awards the guy who just happens to play during the right time of day with a 100% higher chance of getting the gear since camping the HNM does not exclude you from also doing einherjar. As a matter of fact, many shells pool DKP, so being on and available during the spawn window will award people points that get them to the top of the einherjar list as well.

[saevel]

Hell no.

What the heck, are you guys taking turns trolling the forums. One gets shot down only to have another one turn up a few days / weeks later.

To answer the OP, HELL NO. King's were never engaging, fun or otherwise good content. World spawn NM's are BAD, and every successful MMO has moved beyond them. They allow only a select few to have paid money for "magic pixie dust" so that they can claim the NM. Everyone else on the SERVER is then screwed unless they also pay for that magic pixie dust. Then it becomes a game of who paid the most for the most powerful magic pixie dust.

As someone said, if you want the "HNM" experience, unplug your keyboard in front of Fafnir's ??? in DA. Wait a few hours, plug it back in, then have someone else pop and kill the dragon while you stand there hoping they wipe.

And do all this at 4am when you have to work the next day. Or call your friends / wife / gf / significant other and tell them you have to cancel your date / engagement cause your LS needs you during that window.

Yeah F*CK that noise.

[saevel]

You see a majority of players don't want HNMs. I see a full third of players do want them, more than enough for SE to implement them with desired drops. When your play window closes, it's opening for someone else.

And your imagining things. Those people are only in your head, your probably talking to them.

I'd peg it at less then 2~5% of this games population desires world spawned HNM. And most of those only desire it so that they have some sort of status symbol they can show up in town.

[Eric]

And your imagining things. Those people are only in your head, your probably talking to them.

I'd peg it at less then 2~5% of this games population desires world spawned HNM. And most of those only desire it so that they have some sort of status symbol they can show up in town.

As much as I disagree with Aarahs, you can't go around telling someone that their statistics are wrong and then make up some statistics without giving any evidence and then expect to be taken seriously.

[vienne]

There should be content for everyone, if people want to camp an hnm (and they enjoy doing that) or w/e let them, it doesnt bother me and if it drops übergear which is way better than mine then let them have it since they invested alot more time in it. doesnt mean because most cant play 24/7 that content like this shouldnt exist, minorities should be taken into consideration too. Also not that many people make use of the forum so its kinda hard to tell what % is for and how many are against... maybe SE should organise a playerpoll like they have on xiv to determine what direction to go with the new expansion.

[FrankReynolds]

As much as I disagree with Aarahs, you can't go around telling someone that their statistics are wrong and then make up some statistics without giving any evidence and then expect to be taken seriously.

Here's a fact: There are enough people logged on my server to form about 100 alliances right now. If all 100 alliances take turns fighting an HNM that spawns the HQ version once every 3 days, and we all take turns (meaning no claim bots or other shells even show up for the pop except the one whose turn it is) , we will get to fight it about once per year.

That's assuming a Utopian FFXI player base, who all share content equally because they are all mature, respectful, caring, self sacrificing individuals.

[Vivik]

Thanks but no thanks.

[Sarick]

Sorry Tukutu, you've entered the realm of "If it existed before 2010, you can forget about it, because nobody wants it!"

I beg to differ here: Oh boy check out the 200+ Likes (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/40738-Highly-Notorious-Monsters)!

Anyhow, I agree with your suggestion. :)

THAT link is for Final Fantasy 14!!

If you want to play FF14 there's the door. Don't say this is people voting for Final Fantasy 11. Why don't I link to a WOW page that shows it's subscriber base and then say SEE, I beg to differ with you people want easy mode.

See how easy it is to skew results when you use different services? :rolleyes:

[Camiie]

There should be content for everyone,

They shouldn't be worrying about appealing to niche groups when they have limited manpower and resources. They should be trying to cater each piece of content to as large a group as possible.

[Eyeballed]

THAT link is for Final Fantasy 14!!

If you want to play FF14 there's the door. Don't say this is people voting for Final Fantasy 11. Why don't I link to a WOW page that shows it's subscriber base and then say SEE, I beg to differ with you people want easy mode.

See how easy it is to skew results when you use different services? :rolleyes:

My point is that a lot of that game's playerbase wants to see elements of its predecessor, in this case HNM's, return so that they can enjoy them in a new setting without having to go elsewhere to find them. If they can't find them there or anywhere, where are they left to go for their niche? Some would say these types of players are but a small percentage in the realm of MMORPG's, and I beg to differ. The link was my proof.

Just because a handful of people on these forums reject the idea, doesn't mean the rest of the gaming world wouldn't enjoy it. Get used to that idea.

[Reiterpallasch]

Sure, they could make them not drop any loot. Then they'd be like Jormungand where people only ever fight it for the title, and it sits up all by itself 95% of the time.

Or they could expand on the old system, and make the gear drop from alternative sources. They half did this in the past, but left a large number of items HNM specific. Presumably, to keep them rare, since every player shouldn't have every item anyways.

Or they could do something similar to bosses in NNI and just give you key items that can eventually be redeemed for gear.

[FrankReynolds]

My point is that a lot of that game's playerbase wants to see elements of its predecessor, in this case HNM's, return so that they can enjoy them in a new setting without having to go elsewhere to find them. If they can't find them there or anywhere, where are they left to go for their niche? Some would say these types of players are but a small percentage in the realm of MMORPG's, and I beg to differ. The link was my proof.

Just because a handful of people on these forums reject the idea, doesn't mean the rest of the gaming world wouldn't enjoy it. Get used to that idea.

Your link proves that a bunch of people who are crazy enough to play a game that not only has nothing to do with this one, but absolutely sucks enjoy something that no one else likes. Which is a conclusion that one can jump to just by seeing that they play FFXIV. No need to take a poll. A thread that shows that people who enjoy a crappy game, want crappy content doesn't help your argument much at all.

Just because a handful of people on those forums like the idea, doesn't mean the rest of the gaming world would enjoy it. Get used to that idea.


Sure, they could make them not drop any loot. Then they'd be like Jormungand where people only ever fight it for the title, and it sits up all by itself 95% of the time.

Or they could expand on the old system, and make the gear drop from alternative sources. They half did this in the past, but left a large number of items HNM specific. Presumably, to keep them rare, since every player shouldn't have every item anyways.

Or they could do something similar to bosses in NNI and just give you key items that can eventually be redeemed for gear.

It was my understanding from reading what they have said in interviews, that they intended the monsters to stay up %95 of the time like Jormy. They did not expect that players would spend days / nights / weeks camping them. That is part of the reason they put the kabosh on them.

But that doesn't really matter because the simple fact is that %99 of the people on a server will never get to experience them and the ones who do will likely have a bad experience due to an even smaller group of players who are total d-bags.

[Rekin]

How about in the new expansion the devs take advantage of the whole instanced concept and make HNMs appear in instanced dungeons? Or perhaps make it like Besieged at those OPs players are capable of making and having each OP keep a track record of points gained for loot specific to that OP? These are the only feasible methods I see in introducing HNMs in the new expansion that allows many(more than one ls) to participate and experience the content.

[Eyeballed]

Your link proves that a bunch of people who are crazy enough to play a game that not only has nothing to do with this one, but absolutely sucks enjoy something that no one else likes. Which is a conclusion that one can jump to just by seeing that they play FFXIV. No need to take a poll. A thread that shows that people who enjoy a crappy game, want crappy content doesn't help your argument much at all.

200 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/40738-Highly-Notorious-Monsters) > 24 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26651-Will-there-be-camps-in-the-new-expansion)

[Camiie]

FFXIV =/= FFXI

[Trisscar]

200 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/40738-Highly-Notorious-Monsters) > 24 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26651-Will-there-be-camps-in-the-new-expansion)

Damn, you just keep on making the same fallacies over and over as if repeating the same thing will make it true (this is argument from repetition), your post is an example of appeal to belief and incomplete comparison and does nothing to fortify your position.

[Eyeballed]

FFXIV =/= FFXI

MMO = MMO
HNM Topic = HNM Topic
Final Fantasy = Final Fantasy

[Demon6324236]

MMO = MMO
HNM Topic = HNM Topic
Final Fantasy = Final Fantasy

Almost correct.

MMO = MMO
HNM Topic = HNM Topic
Final Fantasy XI =/= Final Fantasy XIV

There we go!

[Eyeballed]

Almost correct.

MMO = MMO
HNM Topic = HNM Topic
Final Fantasy IX =/= Final Fantasy XIV

There we go!

Absolutely! ;)

[Demon6324236]

Absolutely! ;)

You know exactly what was meant... -_-;

[Camiie]

My point is that a lot of that game's playerbase wants to see elements of its predecessor, in this case HNM's, return so that they can enjoy them in a new setting without having to go elsewhere to find them.

If 200 is a lot of a game's player base then that game has more problems than HNMs and the people who love them will be able to fix.


If they can't find them there or anywhere, where are they left to go for their niche?

EQ1? Ultima Online? Asheron's Call? Something old, archaic and not up to modern MMO standards?


Some would say these types of players are but a small percentage in the realm of MMORPG's, and I beg to differ. The link was my proof.

A nearly imperceptible fraction of the MMO universe is hardly proof of anything.


Just because a handful of people on these forums reject the idea, doesn't mean the rest of the gaming world wouldn't enjoy it. Get used to that idea.

The rest of the gaming world is playing WoW and it doesn't have the style of game play you claim that they are asking for.

[Eyeballed]

If 200 is a lot of a game's player base then that game has more problems than HNMs and the people who love them will be able to fix.



EQ1? Ultima Online? Asheron's Call? Something old, archaic and not up to modern MMO standards?



A nearly imperceptible fraction of the MMO universe is hardly proof of anything.



The rest of the gaming world is playing WoW and it doesn't have the style of game play you claim that they are asking for.

Camiie, you really, really know how to send shivers up my spine. ):

[FrankReynolds]

200 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/40738-Highly-Notorious-Monsters) > 24 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26651-Will-there-be-camps-in-the-new-expansion)

That poll is for a completely different game. All your thread proves is that you are in the wrong forum.

And besides that, did you actually read that post? The OP is asking for no spawn windows and short pop times. Meaning no camping and no sense of competition. A lot of the comments are referring to small NM like leaping lizzy. he's asking trigger pops like ZNM and VW as well. Your acting like all those likes are for world spawn 24-72 hour HNM when in fact that guy is talking about allllll sorts of unrelated material in a completely unrelated game.

The bottom line is that regardless of whether 200 or 2,000 people want them, the negative affects it would have on 300,000 people is the issue.

[Eyeballed]

That poll is for a completely different game. All your thread proves is that you are in the wrong forum.

And besides that, did you actually read that post? The OP is asking for no spawn windows and short pop times. Meaning no camping and no sense of competition. A lot of the comments are referring to small NM like leaping lizzy. he's asking trigger pops like ZNM and VW as well. Your acting like all those likes are for world spawn 24-72 hour HNM when in fact that guy is talking about allllll sorts of unrelated material in a completely unrelated game.

The bottom line is that regardless of whether 200 or 2,000 people want them, the negative affects it would have on 300,000 people is the issue.

Honestly, I don't recall anyone asking for strict C&P from either side. Everyone wants a compromise in some form. And to be fair, Lizzy and the like were mentioned as toward in addition to the proposed.

[Trisscar]

Absolutely! ;)

And you are an idiot if you think one Final Fantasy is the same as any other Final Fantasy. They're their own self contained games, that just happen to share the same name. You fail. Utterly and completely. Go back and try again, do not pass go do not collect 200 Gil.

[FrankReynolds]

Honestly, I don't recall anyone asking for strict C&P from either side. Everyone wants a compromise in some form. And to be fair, Lizzy and the like were mentioned as toward in addition to the proposed.

From your FFXIV thread

First paragraph:

bring HNM/NM's into FFXIV in a manner that would appeal to the entirety of the playerabase, and not just a select elitist few.

Fourth paragraph:

we would like to see better small-time open world NM's. Possibly some Lottery Spawns, Trigger Spawned NM's, etc. Before you flame, please read the entirety of this post, as we do not want a pure copy+paste of XI's NM system (we want shortened timers, etc)

Note that most of what he's talking about is already in this game (FFXI) and is lacking in that game (FFXIV). That thread is about way more than what we are discussing in this thread when people say things like:


Will there will camps similar to pre-Abyssea camps, such as Kings, CoP Wyrms, etc?


you want them to add a HNM that drops 1 item that everyone wants 10% of the time and is a 72 hour repop?


10% is a bit high, don't you think? But otherwise, yes.

[Nala]

For the love of... i have nothing useful to add... perhaps ill post my first meme EVER to include a face palm and not this thread again pic =.=

[vienne]

They shouldn't be worrying about appealing to niche groups when they have limited manpower and resources. They should be trying to cater each piece of content to as large a group as possible.

so you're saying that people who also pay money to play this game and would like to see this added should just be ignored? and for as far limited manpower goes, SE is good at recycling its not like HNM is a total new concept

[Trisscar]

so you're saying that people who also pay money to play this game and would like to see this added should just be ignored? and for as far limited manpower goes, SE is good at recycling its not like HNM is a total new concept

Every HNM built in SoA is time and resources wasted to make something only a few people want rather than something that's actually good.

[Plasticleg]

Every HNM built in SoA is time and resources wasted to make something only a few people want rather than something that's actually good.

everyone will want it, not everyone will have it

[Demon6324236]

everyone will want it, not everyone will have it

I do not want HNM, I would not want its gear or items either, reason being because all it would be is a reminder to me how much time I wasted on something completely stupid.

[hiko]

Sorry Tukutu, you've entered the realm of "If it existed before 2010, you can forget about it, because nobody wants it!"

I beg to differ here: Oh boy check out the 200+ Likes (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/40738-Highly-Notorious-Monsters)!

Anyhow, I agree with your suggestion. :)

=>
we would like to see better small-time open world NM's. Possibly some Lottery Spawns, Trigger Spawned NM's, etc. Before you flame, please read the entirety of this post, as we do not want a pure copy+paste of XI's NM system (we want shortened timers, etc)

all I see is 200 people who want something that is NOT 21+HNM

[Camiie]

so you're saying that people who also pay money to play this game and would like to see this added should just be ignored?

Pretty much. They can't please everyone. They don't have the time or money to even attempt to do so. When that's the case, niche markets have to be sacrificed so that time and resources can be better allocated to appealing to a larger demographic.

They already waste far too much time on content only a few people are ever even meant to see as it stands now. The last thing they need to do is waste even more.


and for as far limited manpower goes, SE is good at recycling its not like HNM is a total new concept

Would you honestly be satisfied with them just plopping down a level 112 Fafhogg/KB/Turtle on a 21-24 hour timer?

[0nionKn1ght]

I always thought that anger spawns made much more sense in the HNM world, whereby there is no timer, but the more of it's family you kill the higher the chance of a spawn.

So what if people can farm them? It is a direct reward of time spent to reward gained.

My original thoughts for Behemoth and Faf etc were that the zone should be filled with smaller variants, Wyverns and smaller behemoths etc, and on killing enough the kings would spawn, and very rarely, the HQ ones.

The timed spawn system really gave people a very warped opinion of how games should be played. They should never require people to stand around for up to 24 hours at a time doing nothing.

[Trisscar]

I always thought that anger spawns made much more sense in the HNM world, whereby there is no timer, but the more of it's family you kill the higher the chance of a spawn.

So what if people can farm them? It is a direct reward of time spent to reward gained.

My original thoughts for Behemoth and Faf etc were that the zone should be filled with smaller variants, Wyverns and smaller behemoths etc, and on killing enough the kings would spawn, and very rarely, the HQ ones.

The timed spawn system really gave people a very warped opinion of how games should be played. They should never require people to stand around for up to 24 hours at a time doing nothing.

Maybe it could spawn with hate on the alliance that killed the last kill, similar to that one NM in Sky? Yeah, that'd work for me.

[Demon6324236]

Maybe it could spawn with hate on the alliance that killed the last kill, similar to that one NM in Sky? Yeah, that'd work for me.

Agreed, sounds like a good system to me, however I would hope that perhaps mobs nearby wouldn't cause a problem once spawned, seeing as they would still be nearby.

[0nionKn1ght]

Agreed, sounds like a good system to me, however I would hope that perhaps mobs nearby wouldn't cause a problem once spawned, seeing as they would still be nearby.

Much like when monsters despawn in Abyssea to reset their levels, when daddy shows up, the kids hide until 5 minutes after the last death of the big one. Could even take it further, for example:

The setting: Dragon's Aery
The target: Nidhogg
Creatures found: Ancient Lizards (normal Lizard family monsters)

Kill enough Ancient Lizards (0% drop on key item drops) to spawn Hulking Ancient Lizards (0.01% drop chance on key item drops)
Kill enough HAL's to spawn Wyverns (1% chance to drop key items)
Kill enough Wyverns to spawn Fafnir (claimed to last alliance kill), causing every other monster in the Aery to despawn
Fafnir dying can occasionally summon Nidhogg (claimed to alliance that killed Fafnir) however it could be based on a chat log message "An earth shaking screech is heard from the clouds as Fafnir falls, something big is coming..." telling the alliance that in 60 seconds, Nidhogg is going to pop, and if not "The air falls silent once more as Fafnir screeches, and falls to the ground".

5 minutes after death of Wyrm, Ancient Lizards spawn again.

As well as anger spawning, you can also get the key items to lure them out early, but low drop rate from creatures in that zone, only increasing as you spawn the higher tiers.

[vienne]

Would you honestly be satisfied with them just plopping down a level 112 Fafhogg/KB/Turtle on a 21-24 hour timer?

Thats not what i meant. HNM is there, i'd rather see it improved to todays standards then not see it at all. Its good to see people come up with ideas to improve it instead of just bashing the whole idea. Ideas to make it more accesible for everyone.
Would you prefer new content which will be called unbalanced 10 days after its been released?

[FrankReynolds]

Much like when monsters despawn in Abyssea to reset their levels, when daddy shows up, the kids hide until 5 minutes after the last death of the big one. Could even take it further, for example:

The setting: Dragon's Aery
The target: Nidhogg
Creatures found: Ancient Lizards (normal Lizard family monsters)

Kill enough Ancient Lizards (0% drop on key item drops) to spawn Hulking Ancient Lizards (0.01% drop chance on key item drops)
Kill enough HAL's to spawn Wyverns (1% chance to drop key items)
Kill enough Wyverns to spawn Fafnir (claimed to last alliance kill), causing every other monster in the Aery to despawn
Fafnir dying can occasionally summon Nidhogg (claimed to alliance that killed Fafnir) however it could be based on a chat log message "An earth shaking screech is heard from the clouds as Fafnir falls, something big is coming..." telling the alliance that in 60 seconds, Nidhogg is going to pop, and if not "The air falls silent once more as Fafnir screeches, and falls to the ground".

5 minutes after death of Wyrm, Ancient Lizards spawn again.

As well as anger spawning, you can also get the key items to lure them out early, but low drop rate from creatures in that zone, only increasing as you spawn the higher tiers.


As long as they didn't do it in a silly spot where there are only a few mobs. Ulli and despot camps used to be super lame when a party of six could clear the area, and there were 3 full alliances fighting over pops.

[0nionKn1ght]

As long as they didn't do it in a silly spot where there are only a few mobs. Ulli and despot camps used to be super lame when a party of six could clear the area, and there were 3 full alliances fighting over pops.

Don't see a problem with multi spawns at once like in Abyssea, and super fast repops, or even instant repops, so long as they don't link. I am sure it could be tweaked to have either phased areas, multiple zones, or multiple smaller areas where groups can all go at it.

[Camiie]

Thats not what i meant. HNM is there, i'd rather see it improved to todays standards then not see it at all.

That exists now. Abyssea, VW, and WoE. There's plenty of powerful enemies for you to fight there. They just removed the ridiculous spawn conditions. I would include Legion, but until it's fixed it doesn't really deserve a mention.


Its good to see people come up with ideas to improve it instead of just bashing the whole idea. Ideas to make it more accesible for everyone.

My ideas involve enemies I can fight at my leisure and in cooperation with other players. I don't know if that's at all compatible with what you're asking for. I'm not going to sit here and try to put lipstick on a pig. Sorry.


Would you prefer new content which will be called unbalanced 10 days after its been released?

Yes, I'd rather take my chances with something new than what I already KNOW from experience to be terrible content.

[Damane]

people that usually want camped HNMs back (with world spawn for 24 hours +) are usually the people that dont want to put work into their gear, but would rather let a "program" do their work, so they can go sit afk every 30 min or 1 hour.

I am fine with puttign timed HNMs that drosp absolutly NOTHING, everything else is just garbage. Oh wait we allready have HNMs that you can go kill that drop nothign worthwile! Go camp them. This Topic is totaly and utter garbage, noone wants HNMs back and the people that do: so paragraph above! That is the only reason they want it. (and to turn FFXI again into a drama bitchfest noone wants either)

Of course there is also the people that made profit from those said "Programs" that want HNMs back...

[Dazusu]

I've been done posting in these threads for a while due to the tantrum-throwing brigade, but this made me laugh:


EQ1? Ultima Online? Asheron's Call? Something old, archaic and not up to modern MMO standards?

"Modern MMO standards", you mean like all the recent major MMO's that end up free to play within 6 months because they're crap, casual and void of content which lasts whilst overflowing with instant gratification? Yeah! Let's go with that!

I'm actually quite content with Legion at the moment. Hope more chambers are added.

[Demon6324236]

I don't know, myself I always thought the reason alot of games fail is because they are made to try knocking WoW off its throne, when the goal should be to make a successful game in its own right. So far as I can tell FFXI has done that well, its a good game, it has been played for years, it isn't meant to kill WoW or be bigger, but its meant to be successful, and it somewhat is.

An example of this is TOR, it does not feel like a game that was in the making as long as it was, and it has alot of players lost already, its going F2P soon. If I remember right there was all this talk of it being a WoW killer, and it would be a great huge MMO, and now its only been out a short time in a MMOs lifespan and yet, dying already. I think the reason for things like this is the companies lose focus on making a game that everyone wants to play and will be successful, and instead they try to topple the giant that is WoW.

If you work in an office, and your goal is to 1-up someone in a big high paying spot in the place, you can very easily do a bad job. Instead you could just be working hard, focusing on yourself rather than trying to better someone else, and its much easier to succeed.

[Dazusu]

Just because people slate games as "something made to challenge WoW" - it doesn't mean its what the developers intended. In addition to this - what's wrong with trying to match the best in the market? The truth is that WoW does it well - and in cases of most new MMO's, it does it better too.

FFXI got where it was because it was out before WoW, and is incredibly different to WoW - but now people are asking it to be made like WoW, something you think causes games to fail... makes no sense to me, but to each his own.

[Camiie]

"Modern MMO standards", you mean like all the recent major MMO's that end up free to play within 6 months because they're crap, casual and void of content which lasts whilst overflowing with instant gratification? Yeah! Let's go with that!

You're conveniently ignoring the ones that are highly or even moderately successful, both paid and F2P.


I'm actually quite content with Legion at the moment. Hope more chambers are added.

I'm sure you are. It's still an incredible waste to create content that the vast majority of players aren't meant to be able to clear.


I don't know, myself I always thought the reason alot of games fail is because they are made to try knocking WoW off its throne, when the goal should be to make a successful game in its own right.

A lot of games try to be like WoW, but end up not getting the "feel" right. Many of them are done on the cheap so it's no wonder they end up with clunky game play, poor graphics, or just don't flow properly.

Another problem is the sheer glut of MMOs out there. Even the ones that are well designed are going to have trouble gaining a foothold in the sort of market MMOs create. Most people, due to time and money constraints are going to only be playing one or maybe two MMOs at any given time. Not only that, but there's a very strong attachment factor with MMOs. It's hard to pull people away from something they've poured a lot of time and effort into and built friendships within.

[Dazusu]

Name a recent MMO that's highly successful. Please, do it.

[Camiie]

Name a recent MMO that's highly successful. Please, do it.

First, I said "modern" not recent. There's a not so subtle difference there. There's only one highly successful MMO in the western world and we all know what it is. It's not recent, but it's far more modern than FFXI will ever be.

[Dazusu]

Fine, other than WoW, name a "modern MMO" that's successful. Equally as challenging, I think.

Point I make is, this games success depends on its originality, pushing to have it become as close to WoW as possible will result in it ending up like other games that tried/were assumed to have tried the same thing.

I don't post this in favour of HNM, just to be clear on that front.. but this whole "let's make everything easy as piss" dealio isn't helping. And no, "tough" does not equal "inaccessible", "tough" doesn't have to be "exclusive", as Legion shows. It's thoroughly accessible. No camping required.

[Camiie]

I don't post this in favour of HNM, just to be clear on that front.. but this whole "let's make everything easy as piss" dealio isn't helping.

Show me where someone is asking for "easy as piss." People just don't want their time wasted by stupid spawn conditions.


And no, "tough" does not equal "inaccessible", "tough" doesn't have to be "exclusive", as Legion shows. It's thoroughly accessible. No camping required.

It's pretty much everything the HNM crowd are asking for except the stupid spawn timers and competition over claims. It's obvious that they WANT the inaccessibility and exclusiveness more than anything.

[Sparthos]

I don't post this in favour of HNM, just to be clear on that front.. but this whole "let's make everything easy as piss" dealio isn't helping. And no, "tough" does not equal "inaccessible", "tough" doesn't have to be "exclusive", as Legion shows. It's thoroughly accessible. No camping required.

What exactly has been "easy as piss" outiside the pile of horse glue that was Abyssea? Most of the major critics of Abyssea will concede that things got too easy but that the overall concept and satisfaction from players was and still is unmatched by any content squeezed out since Heroes finished up.

Legion is a terrible example because it has been a critical failure at drawing the endgame base to do it. Reliance on Embrava, Stuns and Perfect Defense show that "tough" for the sake of tough is a great way to drive off most of your base as individuals want to see loot comparable to their efforts. The "hardmode" that we've seen for most of the revamp period has amounted to using the same strategy everywhere if you want to win - you zerg.

If by Legion you meant the ability to have endgame content readily accessible via a teleport to a random place with HNMs then I agree that such a concept is superior to the old camping method but honestly SE has a laundrylist of ways to introduce challenge monsters without returning to things spawning every 21-24 and it'd just be lazy to do so otherwise.

[Trisscar]

Fine, other than WoW, name a "modern MMO" that's successful.

EVE online.

[Dazusu]

EVE online.

Incidentally, radically different to WoW - and has end-game that makes King Camps looks like Hello Kitty Island. Thanks for helping me make my point.

[Demon6324236]

Just because people slate games as "something made to challenge WoW" - it doesn't mean its what the developers intended. In addition to this - what's wrong with trying to match the best in the market? The truth is that WoW does it well - and in cases of most new MMO's, it does it better too.

FFXI got where it was because it was out before WoW, and is incredibly different to WoW - but now people are asking it to be made like WoW, something you think causes games to fail... makes no sense to me, but to each his own.

Basically if a game is trying to be better than WoW, or in some way looks at WoW & tries to do something similar then they are going to fail. They are most likely going to be creating content similar to WoW, but they can never capture a true experience that something else has already produced, like with movies, the original normally stands to be the best.

If games ignore all other MMOs except for what generally makes a good one, they can have a good game. Basically so long as they find what is fun for players, and what people want, they can work to create that environment within their game while maintaining a diversity to create a feel that is different, but can still give people the same kind of fun.

From what I hear The Old Republic for instance plays as a bad Star Wars version of WoW, I think if it does it is likely that Bioware looked at WoW, and tried to get to close to the same gameplay as WoW while trying to do better, it is what would ultimately cause it to fail as well. While other games like FFXI can ignore that and create their own content that brings people enjoyment and so long as it is different than what other games bring than it can still work very well, because it becomes unique, not a bad copy.

I could be completely wrong, but I wanted to further explain for you since you didn't understand. To me it looks like companies lose original thought alot and end up going into another games area and end up with a game that is very similar but not as good in the eyes of players. Examples are all through out gaming, Call of Duty has so many games but if you look around alot of shooters try the same thing, alot fail because it is deemed to be a bad Call of Duty copy, alot of Si-fi shooters get the same between them & Halo, more open shooters get the same with Battlefield. They are the big names in the genre and so when a game similar comes out, it is compared and dropped fast.

WoW is no doubt the biggest name in MMOs, so it seems to me the same happens here, we have MMOs that once they assume the same kind of content WoW does, they are deemed a copy, and thrown into the trash bin. Thats why most MMOs end up with that base kind of content however, because they look at WoW as the giant it is, and try to make success off it something similar, which doesn't work, it would be like if Star Wars had another movie with alot of the same idea, a big Empire, a Rebellion fighting said Empire, however, the Death Star is a cube, and the X-wings are Ts now. The movie would be looked at with a O.o from alot of people, and write it off as bad, for trying to do what someone already did, and pleased so many more people with its originality.



In either case to be a little more on topic. I do not think FFXI is trying to be a more "modern" MMO or anything of the sort. FFXI is simply opening up the content to a more casual audience, while trying to put out content that is just as accessible however much harder, that way it should appeal to the more "hardcore" players as well. The problem is that SE has lost touch with the word balance that they throw around so much. In this hard content there is either an enormous amount of RNG or mobs that hit much to hard for standard play. This is not necessarily what players want however, and thats why it is flawed. FFXI has become much more about accessibility for content and as such things have become faster, but the problem is that the faster things get, the faster we finish, and so the faster we end up without things to do, which leads to more complaining about things being to easy.

So it sum it up, FFXI isn't trying to be more "modern" or to copy other games, its trying to be more open, while it also struggles to recover some balance lost due to certain abilities and content that were given.

[Trisscar]

Incidentally, radically different to WoW - and has end-game that makes King Camps looks like Hello Kitty Island. Thanks for helping me make my point.

Hold it right there, champ. Before you get ahead of yourself, you should learn from someone who's actually played EVE (namely, me). Everything in EVE is open season PvP, even when your'e docked 'safely' in the space stations.

So while you're trying to take down Sleeper Battleships in W-Space (not quite end-game, but you try doing that first day) you have to be on the look out for gankers, who are free to attack you and your targets.

So EVE doesn't have that exclusitivity you are looking for to support your argument.

[Aldersyde]

Incidentally, radically different to WoW - and has end-game that makes King Camps looks like Hello Kitty Island. Thanks for helping me make my point.

Get the hell out. The toughest thing about kings camps was getting and keeping claim while fucktards tried to mess with you. Nothing was hard about the mobs post-2004. Hell, the wyrm and turtle ksnm mobs were harder than king camp mobs.

[Luvbunny]

Point I make is, this games success depends on its originality, pushing to have it become as close to WoW as possible will result in it ending up like other games that tried/were assumed to have tried the same thing.

I dont think SE need to make FFXI as WoW clone verbatim when it comes to gameplay, but they surely can appropriate the big idea of addictive, accessible and fun vision of WoW. FF has over 20 years of history with rich lores, monsters, jobs, and game mechanic to draw upon - originality is not SE weak point, they have TONS of things to draw inspirations from. I think the problem is at the company, mismanagement, and not enough funding. FFXI was different enough when it was launched, but it was also a derivative of Everquest since WoW did not even launched yet in 2003. At the very least SE was willing to evolve the game with Abyssea, let's see what will be in store with SoA, it looks promising, but then again one never know - at least not yet.

[Dazusu]

Hold it right there, champ. Before you get ahead of yourself, you should learn from someone who's actually played EVE (namely, me). Everything in EVE is open season PvP, even when your'e docked 'safely' in the space stations.

So while you're trying to take down Sleeper Battleships in W-Space (not quite end-game, but you try doing that first day) you have to be on the look out for gankers, who are free to attack you and your targets.

So EVE doesn't have that exclusitivity you are looking for to support your argument.

Read my earlier posts. I'm not looking for exclusivity, nor am I defending it in "successful" games (if it even exists?). It's a bad idea to exclude (or make people feel excluded) from a section of end-game. You got no argument here from me, but similarly, everything doesn't have to give instant gratification.


FF has over 20 years of history with rich lores, monsters, jobs, and game mechanic to draw upon - originality is not SE weak point, they have TONS of things to draw inspirations from. I think the problem is at the company, mismanagement, and not enough funding.

You got it kitty.Game needs more money and a bigger team. Ultimately, the development cycle needs speeding up.


Get the hell out. The toughest thing about kings camps was getting and keeping claim while fucktards tried to mess with you. Nothing was hard about the mobs post-2004. Hell, the wyrm and turtle ksnm mobs were harder than king camp mobs.

I don't disagree, and for the majority of people who killed them daily, this was always the case. But those who didn't stilled wiped to Fafnir with 18 people.

I'm not here posting pro-HNM camps, but I am pro-Legion and other content similar.

[saevel]

Hold it right there, champ. Before you get ahead of yourself, you should learn from someone who's actually played EVE (namely, me). Everything in EVE is open season PvP, even when your'e docked 'safely' in the space stations.

So while you're trying to take down Sleeper Battleships in W-Space (not quite end-game, but you try doing that first day) you have to be on the look out for gankers, who are free to attack you and your targets.

So EVE doesn't have that exclusitivity you are looking for to support your argument.

Lets not even begin with corporate CEO's raiding the bank accounts or assassinating each other.

EVE ... is what happens when you remove the GM's and have a standing "all is fair game" policy.

Just imagine in FFXI if one LS leader could assassinate another LS leader and force them to start over or significantly reduce their achievements.

[saevel]

Name a recent MMO that's highly successful. Please, do it.

DDO after Turbine took over.

(Highly is relative, game went from heading to the trash bin to making immense profits and sustaining a rapid expansion with constant content updates).

http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/02/26/one-million-new-adventurers-in-dungeons-and-dragons-online/

1 million+ subscribers as of 2010, even more now.

Not quite pure F2P, more of a hybrid subscription model (you can chose a regular subscription or chose micro transaction system, subscription model gets all the goodies, micro transaction must use points that they either earn in-game or purchase in bundles).

DDO has become a benchmark for MMO success stories. From a failure after launch that including shutting down servers in the entire EU region to a resounding success that had servers bursting at the seams.

[Aldehido]

The game should revamp itself and refocus itself on what gave FFXI it's glory. I'm really tired of seeing mediocre players with great gear because it's easy to obtain. The game needs it's sense of competition it once had.

[cidbahamut]

The game should revamp itself and refocus itself on what gave FFXI it's glory. I'm really tired of seeing mediocre players with great gear because it's easy to obtain. The game needs it's sense of competition it once had.

If you want a PvP experience go play a PvP game.

PvP was never FFXI's core competency.

[Camiie]

The game should revamp itself and refocus itself on what gave FFXI it's glory. I'm really tired of seeing mediocre players with great gear because it's easy to obtain. The game needs it's sense of competition it once had.

You know who says this kind of thing most often? Its not the true hardcore elites, as one might expect me to say. It's the second-rate nobodies who think they're hot shots. I know I'm a second-rate nobody, but at least I don't think I'm something special when I'm not.

[FrankReynolds]

The game should revamp itself and refocus itself on what gave FFXI it's glory. I'm really tired of seeing mediocre players with great gear because it's easy to obtain. The game needs it's sense of competition it once had.

Does other people wearing good gear make your gear less useful?

[Sp1cyryan]

Saying that everyone can't experience this is complete nonsense. Everyone has the opportunity to go to the camps, and compete. The game needs a sense of competition, and these events were one of the biggest competition driven events that also had the opportunity to yield some of the games best gear. I'm not saying all the best gear came or should come from camps, but quite a bit of it did, and should.

No, saying waiting for something to pop for hours every few days with a crap drop rate is engaging is nonsense.

If you can not see there is still competition in everything people do in FFXI then you really are blind. I would rather fight over popping ???s in abyssea than spend a lifetime trying to out claim some dumb dragon.

I would rather do 200+ Pils all over again because at least I get more reward (cruor, gil, xp) out of not getting the drop compared to having to be in a LS and go through the list of BS associated with HNM camping. Besides, 200 Pils may actually be much faster while rewarding more than a top to bottom list of people in a LS.

It is better to have gear come from an instance like the new Ultima, and when did competition take priority over challange and strategy?

Do not pull the "trying to out claim others is challenging" card too. If that were the case we could all go compete over Gukumatz right now to suit your need for competition. If you have had to compete for him as much as others then you realize the flaw in the HNM system since his KI would never be 100% in an HNM world. Unless you enjoy it that much on being the first to provoke a monster then it is just a truly annoying event. Even then, leave the community out of it.

It is much more exciting and satisfying to go solo the last fight in Kupo d'Etat on BLU than it ever will be to have claimed Fafnir on your RDM and watch your LS kill it.

[Camiie]

I hope everyone who's so keen on there being competition are constant participants in Ballista and Brenner. I hope they're all over the Play-As-Monster system when it's released. I hope they're racing Chocobos and tossing mobs in the Pankration ring. Something tells me none of this is or will be happening though. It's not REALLY about the competition is it? Rhetorical question. We all know it isn't.

[Sp1cyryan]

I hope everyone who's so keen on there being competition are constant participants in Ballista and Brenner. I hope they're all over the Play-As-Monster system when it's released. I hope they're racing Chocobos and tossing mobs in the Pankration ring. Something tells me none of this is or will be happening though. It's not REALLY about the competition is it? Rhetorical question. We all know it isn't.

It is more about the satisfaction of taking away what someone else wants for yourself.

Lets not forget the people who start thinking they are better than everyone else because they claimed and are wearing some gear.

[Nala]

Or the groups that get everything they want out of x HNM and continue to claim it anyways to either sell the right to fight, the drops or even just to prevent others access to the gear.

[FrankReynolds]

It is more about the satisfaction of taking away what someone else wants for yourself.

Lets not forget the people who start thinking they are better than everyone else because they claimed and are wearing some gear.

I bought all the pink shirts at the mall so that no one else could get any. Clearly I am better than those people in white shirts.

[AkadenAsura]

Here are my thoughts (take them with a massive grain of salt):
There's something to be said about competition. HNMs with 72hr repops do provide sufficient competition to players. But there's little strategy here. You know exactly when it will pop. However, setting a range on the pop timer will not help either, nor will making it a lottery spawn. What really needs to be present in a HNM that drops really good gear is the following:
Strategy. It shouldn't be a one size, zerg all monster. Some serious thinking needs to be done on the devs part to make the monster engage the players in battle. It should be legitimately hard. The gear is good, therefore, the players have to play well to get them.
Absolutely NO randomness. Nobody likes random. But drop rates exist for a reason: Limit the number of existing pieces. That makes sense, that's the competition. So drop rate should be random. (You're welcome thieves...) But access to the monster should not be random. Progress bars are great motivators. If you are constantly making progress to get to fight a monster, you get to see that. Randomness in invisible and it annoys the life out of players. Suggestion: The pop shouldn't go away if you lose to the monster, perhaps some farming needs to be redone, but failure is always an option. We can only learn from failure, so don't punish us for learning.
Good drops. Man, they have to be good. Tons of work should go into getting the monster to pop. Legitimate work. It's gotta be hard for it to be an HNM. Then, the monster needs to be tough. You have to really have great players with great gear and a great strategy (something unique). So it better drop great gear. Grand difficulty means grand drops. They don't even have to be gear drops. It could drop 0-3 items that you turn in for gear or something.
Play style adjustments. Legion is interesting in that there are two modes: 18 and 36. Each mode has its own benefits. HNMs should be accessible to single-party groups. That could mean allowing the party to pop another HNM that's less difficult and drops less items or lower-quality items, etc. Every player has his own preference. Play on that.
Interesting story. Not a requirement, but story really beefs up the entertainment-factor (this is a game after all). I really enjoy beating the tar out of Shinryu because of story. I'll do it for fun. I don't even need to proc. I enjoy that kind of stuff. I know a lot of other players do too.

I think that what I'm trying to say is this: There are a lot of systems in this game that do one thing great. I'd like to see a new system, perhaps new HNMs, that really hit the nail on the head, here. I'm predicting that's where the real end-game content will end up. To the devs: Please make it fun, rewarding, difficult and yet accessible to most players.

[Ophannus]

Think SE doesn't like making tough mobs because whenever they do, people QQ that it's too hard and only the top 1% if any, can kill them.

Examples:

1) Absolute Virtue (People killed at 75 once they learned how to lock 2hr)
2) Pandemonium Warden (Nobody ever killed at 75 until Alex was released 2yrs after PW was released, the gimmick of locking Astral Flow was never discovered)
3) Hall of Mul (Only a couple LS on each server really have manpower, relics, and skill to beat this tier and farm drops.)
4) Botolus Rex/Kalasutrax/Ig-Alima (Not many people could kill these things reliably, so they added White Procs, temp items restored with each proc and phase displacers.)

I remember when TOAU was first released and the top HNMLS on Diabolos I think it was Solstice or Ethereal or something claimed Hydra and held it for 18 hours because they couldn't kill it, and people on BG were QQing that it was unkillable etc; same with Odin v1. When Odin's chamber came out, it was at least 3 months before a NA shell beat it and it was a good 2 months before the first video on BG surfaced of a JP shell taking him down.

[SpankWustler]

Think SE doesn't like making tough mobs because whenever they do, people QQ that it's too hard and only the top 1% if any, can kill them.

Examples:

1) Absolute Virtue (People killed at 75 once they learned how to lock 2hr)
2) Pandemonium Warden (Nobody ever killed at 75 until Alex was released 2yrs after PW was released, the gimmick of locking Astral Flow was never discovered)
3) Hall of Mul (Only a couple LS on each server really have manpower, relics, and skill to beat this tier and farm drops.)
4) Botolus Rex/Kalasutrax/Ig-Alima (Not many people could kill these things reliably, so they added White Procs, temp items restored with each proc and phase displacers.)

I remember when TOAU was first released and the top HNMLS on Diabolos I think it was Solstice or Ethereal or something claimed Hydra and held it for 18 hours because they couldn't kill it, and people on BG were QQing that it was unkillable etc; same with Odin v1. When Odin's chamber came out, it was at least 3 months before a NA shell beat it and it was a good 2 months before the first video on BG surfaced of a JP shell taking him down.

There's a pretty big difference between Absolute Virtue and Pandemonium Warden, and literally all of the other stuff listed.

If Botolus Rex before white procs was a hurdle that you had to train a little to leap over; Pandemonium Warden at 75 would have been two hungry, armored bears released into the sports arena by your own fiance as she made out with both of your parents.