Thief - My thoughts as I approach year 7 of being one

[LeaderofAtlantis]

Even after all this time, this is the job I love the most. My initial response, while taking it from 1 to 75, to everyone saying "/NIN?" all the time was "I'm fine without it, thanks." The challenge was to take it from 1 to 75 on /WAR alone and I did, but I eventually stopped being stubborn (semi-lazy I guess) and leveled up /NIN which I now use more than /WAR, but if I have a good Bard for when I pull hate, I'll bring /WAR back out from time to time. Now, at level 90, the job is as good as it's ever been in team combat, but the main idea of a thief is that we are able to get what we want using our skills. So I would like to post my suggestions based on my experience with this job after all these years of doing it.

First off, Thief's Tools are something I rarely have used. My success rate with them has been less than impressive to me, and I enjoy killing things, so I've worked to farm keys when I need them. It would be nice to see a system introduced along the lines of say, fishing or Abyssea pyxides, where we can actually open them through skill using tools, skeleton keys, or living keys. Each key would require different things from us. I haven't completely thought this through about what could be done, but having 3 types of keys that we just use like a regular item and hope for the best hasn't impressed me much.

Second, Treasure Hunter against some monsters (like Aht Uhrgan Beastmen) seems like a waste. Why is it that none of those Beastmen have scrolls like the Beastmen of Mindartia and Quon? I know it's minor, but it was always something that bugged me a little bit so I thought I'd get it out there.

Third, Mug... why 15 minutes? I assume the original thought was "we don't want people just mugging 1 thing after another and getting gil that way and exploiting it", but seriously, few things can be mugged more than once, and aside from Notorious Monsters (which all respawn more than 15 minutes later), you can't mug a significant amount from a monster assuming it even drops gil (which are the only things that can be mugged). Heck, even if you dropped it to a 5 minute recast, I mug anywhere from 1 to 100 gil for the most part even with my Assassin's Bonnet equipped, so, at best, I could make 2,000 gil in 1 hour from this trait just from normal monsters. Nothing all that game breaking as far as the economy goes wouldn't you say? Or, if you want to keep it at 15, could we get a job trait that would cause it to do damage of some kind? We have Assassin job trait that affects our Trick Attack ability, so I know that can be done at least.

Fourth, why are Steal and Despoil on the same timer? I have Aura Steal merited just in case stealing an item fails. However, if Despoiling an item fails, I lose Aura Steal anyway and I've done nothing. Then I must wait 5 minutes to try again for any of them. I'm a thief so why couldn't I attempt both? It just seems debilitating to the main idea of the job to not allow us multiple ways to take something if the first way fails. Also, why is it only on very rare occasions that Notorious Monsters have items to steal (using Steal to get the weapon needed to kill Brigandish Blade was a brilliant idea, for example) and it seems that no Notorious Monster has anything to despoil? Perhaps it's a temporary oversight... or at least, I hope it was.

Finally, my ideas for job traits/abilities. Again, I don't think they're game breaking and it would help to add to the uniqueness of this job:

(JA) Vigilance - Temporarily increases evasion and parry rates. Duration: 30 seconds Recast: 5 minutes

(JA) Con - Not sure of a good in game description for it, but it would be similar to Hide in that it drops all enmity, but this would be used on things normally not fooled by Hide. In the case of Con, however, we would need to be face to face with the "mark" as it were. So it would be ineffective in a "run away" scenario. I would see this as being useful when say, using Accomplice on a WHM that just used Benediction and you just got the monster's attention. Duration: Instant Recast: 5 minutes

(JT) Gilgame Heart - Occasionally converts a percentage of damage taken to gil. Activation rate: 3% Damage to gil: 10%

This might be able to be abused, so activation rate and damage to gil conversion might need adjusted, but again, the whole idea of a Thief is that we know how to acquire things of value.

[Karbuncle]

Some of your Ideas are peeves of mine as well, Especially Despoil/Steal sharing timers... which is BullS...crap... And the fact Mug is on a 15 minute timer (Only use i get is using it while Camping NMs inside Dungeon areas, Mug the PH before it dies, Mug is up? Placeholder should be too :D!). With Mug, It doesn't bug me too much, They could stand to lower it, But i would much prefer the ability to Mug Cruor (It IS the currency of Abyssea) Rather than a lowered timer.

Despoil/Steal need to be split, They have 2 entirely different Secondary function (Despoil Inflicts Ailments, Steal <with merits> Can Remove mobs buffs), and entirely different Steal-Pools. The reason for them being linked is mind boggling. Despoil doesn't even work on, If i recall, Any NM at all, any good one anyway, Despite them sharing family types.

Like for instance, I Can Despoil a Buffalo Horn off any Bluffalo, But i can't Despoil one off of the NM Bluffalo? It makes no sense, Was SE too lazy to add a Despoil Pool to Abyssea NMs? Its just always irked me we got this new Ability that in itself i was like "What the crap? More Steal? really?" and it doesn't even work on 99% of the mobs You'd want it to work on. What with the mobs it does work on (Normal mobs) Die within 10s of engaging, making whatever Debuff you put on pointless.

So what this rant is suppose to say, If they do split Despoil/Steal timers, I hope at the very least they give Despoil a effect similar to Aura-Steal, Where, Even if an item is not stolen, Perhaps it still has a chance to inflict a Status Ailment.

Now, I know the Ailment is Generally based on whats stolen (I.E, if you Despoil a Tusk from a Bluffalo, it lowers their Attack, If you despoil their Hide, it lowers their Evasion, etc), But Maybe a "missed steal" Despoil could have a smaller Status-Ailment Pool. Limited to perhaps Slow/Paralyze/Blind or some other basic forms of Debuffs...

I can admit my ideas are far-fetched, and they are a long way from improving THF in any meaningful aspect, But the Despoil/Mug/Steal thing were always a little pet-peeve of mine. :|


Edit: Also, In terms of Vigilance, I'd rather SE not add an Ability at all than add an Ability with 30 Second Duration and 5 minute recast, Its just insulting to think it'd ever be useful. If we did get an Ability like that (Which i doubt, Cause stupid MNK has Dodge), I'd like it to be maybe 3 minute Recast, 1 minute duration. Effectively be able to keep it up 1/3rd of the time. or even 5rec, 2dur like Dodge. But IDK, I'm still blinded in rage at our last Ability "Conspirator". I mean, Not because its a terrible ability (Even though it mostly is), but because its 100% Completely useless in a Low-man Situation, as it doesn't work on the Target of the Enemy. Which i guess makes sense from a Wonkey "Roll Play" Perspective, But its just another Job ability in the list of Job Abilities for THF thats completely worthless Solo or Low Man (SA, TA, Hide, Conspirator, etc. TA/SA is an exception if you're not the Tank, But i generally am :|)

[LeaderofAtlantis]

The idea was this for Vigilance - you've just grabbed 50% of the WHM's hate after they used Benediction and it moved you to the top of the hate list. I guess making the duration 1 minute, but keeping the recast at 5 minutes wouldn't be too overpowered.

[Ryozen]

if I have a good Bard for when I pull hate

.....What?

[LeaderofAtlantis]

.....What?

Mambo x2. Long gone friends of mine on Unicorn server and I used to EXP on Tavnazian Rams. The Bard I had was one of the nicest guys on the server and a great friend in game. I tanked Rams and Birds on THF/WAR with Mambo x2 in full evasion gear and with Tatami Shield. If I grab hate now, and continue to hold it, I've had Bards use Pianissimo on me and Mambo to help boost my evasion to help me live a little while longer hopefully.

Just an extra FYI - I haven't touched /WAR in 6+ months for THF, so not sure how well this would work now, but just a general statement of my experience.

[Strify]

I've been a THF since '06 and I love it. :) My favorite job also.

I also agree that the Mug timer is far too long, and steal and despoil don't make sense sharing the same timer IMO. Would be more useful JA's if they didn't so you could alternate if one fails.

Vigilance is a JA I'd like to see!

[Laphine]

Cool ideas, and there is a number of them in this forum indeed.

I'm with Karbuncle on Vigilance. It's really not a needed ja. If we have capped evasion most times, why bother? I'm in for a ja that would increase our damage mitigation beyond our current 80% cap(considering only evasion here). If we could randomly dodge attacks (like sam can randomly anticipate and mnk can randomly counter) it would be the best approuch to our problem. Sure we can cap pdt for a final 90% mitigation, but so can everyone. And actually every single job can cap evasion given a weak enough target. Why should a lv1 mob ever be able to hit a lv90 thf, the one master of evasion?

[Delvish]

I agree with the concept of Vigilance as putting it on par with Perfect Counter and the like. Laphine posts a valid point towards the capped evasion. Definitely wouldn't mind a Parry version though.

[LeaderofAtlantis]

My main thinking with Vigilance is I have an evasion gear build that I can swap to quickly if I pull hate (which does tend to happen when I use Collaborator every 1 minute on mages to keep them low on hate), but swapping back to my TP gear takes another swap when I might need to switch back again to evasion right away. I would rather be able to hold my own in my TP gear for a bit since I do notice a difference. My evasion skill is capped with Lv4 merits as well. Also, adding parry to the mix with how high our skill caps is a nice way to supplement our evasion I think. Like, if the evade failed, we can still parry the attack to save ourselves. Yeah we can do that naturally, but it would help if our high parry skill came into play more than it does.

I also had another idea based off a Final Fantasy Tactics ability:
(JA) Caution - Temporarily increase the parry rate of the party.

Increase: 10% Recast: 5 minutes Duration: 1 minute

[Pesh]

I'm still blinded in rage at our last Ability "Conspirator". I mean, Not because its a terrible ability (Even though it mostly is), but because its 100% Completely useless in a Low-man Situation

I used to be pissed about Conspirator because I was always tanking, but now I love it because it means the other guys are feeding the mob less TP to wtfpwnshot me.

[LeaderofAtlantis]

I used to be pissed about Conspirator because I was always tanking, but now I love it because it means the other guys are feeding the mob less TP to wtfpwnshot me.

^This. When I'm in a party, I use it as often as possible. It's a nice little bonus assistance for everyone who doesn't currently have main hate.

[Thegreatmonkey]

I have not play the game in 6-7 months now, but I am thinking of coming back soon. When I left, the new cap was 80 and I did not see anything that impressed me about thf, even tho I do love the class. The ideas you have posted would give the class even more of a roll in a party, other then being a TH object....

With the new lvl cap and new things in the game, has the thf class become more easier and are there more people around who dont know how to play there jobs currently?

[Kaeoni]

Making Mug 5mins as well as being a stun. Separate Steal and Despoil Timers, make perfect dodge a 15minute ability (i can count on one hand how many times i have used perfect dodge in the past 6 months, it rhymes with hero and starts with a Z), Give thief a 2hr that Boosts Drop rate by 50%. BAM, broken job is broken.

I could handle just mug and steal timers being the only adjustments to be honest, would make me pretty happy.

@TheGreatMonkey
All jobs have become a lot more accessible since Abyssea. Sure Thief is loved as a Treasure hunter "object" as you may call it but any good thief Is worth the weight of a party slot. But the job is what you make of it and take from it. You're only an Object if you choose to be. Thief offers quite a bit.

[Thegreatmonkey]

@Kaenoi
I just hated all the people who only would invite you to partys because of TH. When I was playing, I would play my job to the fullest. One of the things were being a DD and a lot of times stealing hate from the tank and holding it til the end (most of the time I could not use TA because people would move when I active the skill).

[Karbuncle]

I used to be pissed about Conspirator because I was always tanking, but now I love it because it means the other guys are feeding the mob less TP to wtfpwnshot me.

I spend 90% of my time in abyssea either as THF low-manning with a BLM, a RDM(Or DRK, he's useless :P), and a WHM. Most of them (Aside from when the one comes DRK) really don't benefit from added acc or Subtle Blow.

if i recall SB Does effect the tp Gained from Spells (?), But generally thats only good for 1-2 Spells at best =.=

So its completely useless for me :(, But i understand these days that for some people its useful. It still irks me it doesn't effect the Tank. I mean, on the SAME update, Monk gets an ability that raises Attack and Critical hit rate per-hit. and WAR got an AoE Critical Hit damage boost, both of those Abilities give relevant and useful stats. while THF gets an Ability that has a Nerf (Tank doesnt get) and gives Quite frankly the most useless stat in the game right now (Accuracy, cause we all cap it, always, except for maybe Stupid Pony), and Subtle Blow (Useful in high doses!)

But Eh.

<Almost forgot, Other 10% of the time in abyssea I'm on another job :(>

[Delvish]

@Kaenoi
I just hated all the people who only would invite you to partys because of TH. When I was playing, I would play my job to the fullest. One of the things were being a DD and a lot of times stealing hate from the tank and holding it til the end (most of the time I could not use TA because people would move when I active the skill).
When you come back (yes I say when because you are here. The thought has already been incepted into your brain. 4 levels down) You'd do well to get yourself the best evasion set you can and an eva+ trial dagger. You talk of stealing hate from the tank. Now, you ARE the tank the vast majority of the time. Yes, people still love you for your TH, but with the correct Atma, you are easily placed at the very top of the DD pool. It's quite impressive actually.

[Insaniac]

SE is trying too hard to make THF a utility job. Forgive me if I'm being selfish but can I have a JA that benefits just me? Not something that steals someones hate or increases every ones stats but mine? How about a JA that shares SAs timer, doesn't stack with TA, transfers no hate, but works from the front. I would be happy forever with just this.

[Kaeoni]

@Kaenoi
I just hated all the people who only would invite you to partys because of TH. When I was playing, I would play my job to the fullest. One of the things were being a DD and a lot of times stealing hate from the tank and holding it til the end (most of the time I could not use TA because people would move when I active the skill).

Yea i understand what you mean =/. I also remember melee running from my TA as well... they still try to! sometimes.. haha But like Delvish said, things have changed.

@Karbuncle agreed, simply just agreed lol.

@Insaniac
With all these shared timers and shared JA's i'm anticipating the SA and TA shared timer update. Just thinking about job restriction timers gets me all warm and tingly.

[LordTrey]

Yea i understand what you mean =/. I also remember melee running from my TA as well... they still try to! sometimes.. haha But like Delvish said, things have changed.



This is why I love retaliation so much. WARs never run anymore!

[Angelsasuke]

Y do people put soo much time into evasion gear for thf? maybes its cuz im not doing HNMs but in abyssea i tank jus fine with boxers and eva torque. Most the time i duo with a blm/whm only reason for /whm is Light triggers and maybe a cure on the rare occasions i need one. And if you are tryin to DD in a pty ditch the evasion get some dbl attk and trpl attk gear + RR and whatever 2 you feel like using i norm do RR GH and Apoc atma. and go but nuts. And i dunno maybe mine is broken but when " I " am the tank conspirator still hits me. And since when is hide a uselss solo ability? Steal/despoil sharing a timer though i have to agree annoys the hell outta me. And mug well it dont do too much in most cases neway so it never bother me. As far as dodge goes though i really only use it when im sack pulling, it doesnt ever get used besides that.

[Karbuncle]

(1) Y do people put soo much time into evasion gear for thf? maybes its cuz im not doing HNMs but in abyssea i tank jus fine with boxers and eva torque. Most the time i duo with a blm/whm only reason for /whm is Light triggers and maybe a cure on the rare occasions i need one. And if you are tryin to DD in a pty ditch the evasion get some dbl attk and trpl attk gear + RR and whatever two you feel like using i norm do RR GH and Apoc atma. and go but nuts. (2) And i dunno maybe mine is broken but when (3)" I " am the tank conspirator still hits me. And since when is hide a uselss solo ability? Steal/despoil sharing a timer though i have to agree annoys the hell outta me. And mug well it dont do too much in most cases neway so it never bother me. As far as dodge goes though i really only use it when im sack pulling, it doesnt ever get used besides that.

Dividing posts isn't fun :( So I'm numbering each subject im addressing. I'm not doing it condescendingly, I only number it so its easier to read and understand What point I'm typing too ^^

1) People only focus on EVA gear when Tanking High-End NMs. Usually ones that your Average TP build won't cap EVA on. They don't really exist except for the new zones. For instance i usually need a Hybrid EVA set when I'm tanking that Cerb-Jerk who drops atheling Mantle (Claws bro, Claws :(). So EVA set is obviously something you never want to full-time TP In, Most NMs i can safely Tank in my TP Set up XD, Its just really good to have an EVA set on hand for when you really need it rare as it may be. Also, RR/GH/Apoc rocks!

2) Hide is useless solo on 99% of mobs. It only works on 1 Specific Tracking type (Sight Onry), and does not work on any NMs (inside Abyssea) So While it is useful for a Solo SATA from the front on some mobs, or just SA > Hide > Kill, Its not completely useful on Every mob. In facts its got more mobs that it doesnt work on than it does sadly.

3) Conspirator will always give the message of you receiving the effect (Unless you have a certain NIN or WHM spell up), But if you're tanking, you -do not- receive the benefits. The icon will be there, But you will not get the Bonuses. Imagine it like Sneak Attack. Sure if you use Sneak Attack from the front the Icon will appear, But when you hit the mob it wont work. Conspirator works the same way, The icon is there but the effect does not work if you're tanking. Its not broken :).

[Arcon]

Evasion set is one thing, but some Thieves go way, way too far with that. Whenever I see dual AGI Kila +2 (or even one for that matter), I just feel they're wasting their time and effort. Same goes for Ungur Boomerang. Even the best NMs in my TP set don't hit me for more than 50%, with just a few more items can lower that rate to a manageable degree, with an all out Evasion set (without top row) I have enough to floor it on any mob, in- or outside of Abyssea. And that much is rarely needed (never in my experience, but there's like two or three mobs I haven't tanked yet on THF).

[Catsby]

I would like to see a system for stealing and looting. Every time a thief complains about something it's usually their combat proficiency. It would be awesome to have steal subdivided into several different JA and more shinnies on mobs/treasure chests for us to take.

[Kaeoni]

Stuff!

Yea, Kila+2 may kind of seem like a waste of time, but i personally do still use one. I Just feel it allows me to use a better hybrid haste/evasion set without sacrificing as much or any haste. 9agi 20 evasion 43dmg and 190 delay isn't exactly a gimp dagger or anything in my book so if i can keep my Raiders vest +2 and Twilght belt on instead of a Scorpion harness +1 and a Scouter rope while tanking, i'll do it. I'm just using this as an example of what kind of trade off i can make.

You are right some super pimped out evasion set isn't technically needed especially when you're doing stuff with a group and you are in fact tanking.

[Karbuncle]

Evasion set is one thing, but some Thieves go way, way too far with that. Whenever I see dual AGI Kila +2 (or even one for that matter), I just feel they're wasting their time and effort. Same goes for Ungur Boomerang. Even the best NMs in my TP set don't hit me for more than 50%, with just a few more items can lower that rate to a manageable degree, with an all out Evasion set (without top row) I have enough to floor it on any mob, in- or outside of Abyssea. And that much is rarely needed (never in my experience, but there's like two or three mobs I haven't tanked yet on THF).

Don't get me wrong, I agree like, 99%. Cause on most mobs i tank in abyssea, i can safely tank in my TP set lol...

I hate nothing more than seeing like, a level 90 THF tanking a Visions/Scars Lower-Tier NM in full on EVA and 0 DPS, its... overkill and its horribly inefficient.

I'd post my Hybrid EVA/DD Build i use as a "Testing the waters" Build against higher-Teir NMs... But its so confusing i think it might cause brain tumors :3


I would like to see a system for stealing and looting. Every time a thief complains about something it's usually their combat proficiency. It would be awesome to have steal subdivided into several different JA and more shinnies on mobs/treasure chests for us to take.

My biggest peeve with Steal/Despoil is that It doesn't work on 99% of NMs. Which is stupid. Steal/Despoil should work on NMs.

I figure a way to get around this is, First off, Add Steal pools to NMs... It doesn't have to be SUPER AWESOME, just copy > Paste their families steal/Despoil pull... as i said in my first post i see no reason that i can't Despoil Buffalo horns off a Buffalo NM... Second Make Steal/Despoil do Damage (About that of a normal swing.) That way, Fail or Succeed, its not entirely useless.

[Karbuncle]

Double post :( Meant to edit in a quote.

[Confusedtaru]

I like the idea of mugging Cruor ^^ and while on the subject of mugging, why not make a trait allowing the higher cruor reward for pt members when a thf is in the pt? perhaps 20% would do

[Atomic_Skull]

Things THF needs:

A+ rank dagger.

B+ rank marksmanship

Reverse collaborator.

SATA timers should be 30 seconds on main job THF instead of 60 seconds.

ACC bonus I through III (if DNC gets evasion bonus and our exclusive WS we should get ACC bonus)

A trait with increasing tiers that reduces delay when using dagger weapons similar to how Martial Arts works with hand to hand.

Magic evasion trait.

Change Sneak Attack back to how it worked before 2004 (only needed to be out of the mob's cone of sight). Standing behind another player with Trick Attack active should also count as being "out of sight" for Sneak Attack.

[Kaida]

More than DW1 >.> <.<

[Yarly]

More than DW1 >.> <.<
We got DW2 sometime at 86-90

[Eeek]

Evasion set is one thing, but some Thieves go way, way too far with that. Whenever I see dual AGI Kila +2 (or even one for that matter), I just feel they're wasting their time and effort. Same goes for Ungur Boomerang. Even the best NMs in my TP set don't hit me for more than 50%, with just a few more items can lower that rate to a manageable degree, with an all out Evasion set (without top row) I have enough to floor it on any mob, in- or outside of Abyssea. And that much is rarely needed (never in my experience, but there's like two or three mobs I haven't tanked yet on THF).

What's wrong with dual AGI Kilas +2? They are, hands down, the best pieces of evasion gear for THF and DNC. If I actually need evasion for something, these are the first pieces of gear I swap in. Instead of using one of my evasion sets, I much prefer to use one or two AGI Kilas +2 and keep on using my best TP gear and maximizing damage as best I can.

[Kaida]

We got DW2 sometime at 86-90

Pretty sure we got DW1 at at 83

[Karbuncle]

Pretty sure we got DW1 at at 83

He's saying, as a level 90 THF, we now also have Dual Wield II.

which means by 99 we might get Dual wield 3 :o

[Kaida]

Oh i was meaning naturally so i can sub something else for a change and keep both daggers and it be worth a damn

Tho thinking about it i might be able to get it in gear.... i shall have to test and do some maths

[LeaderofAtlantis]

Things THF needs:

A+ rank dagger.

Would not complain there.


B+ rank marksmanship

EH, not sure our skill should be better than a COR. With Feint on a 2 minute timer, I can hit almost anything even without ranged accuracy gear on (aside from the +8 on Ziska's)


Reverse collaborator.

Would be a bit interesting to have that to play with since helping with hate control seems to be a big direction SE wants to take our job.


SATA timers should be 30 seconds on main job THF instead of 60 seconds.

As much fun as that might be, no. No other job gets the modifier bonuses we get with these abilities when they go /THF. Go out with a SAM friend and fight a Lesser Colibri. Let him do 1 SA hit and then you do 1 SA hit - odds are you just did more than double their dmg on the hit. Doing this more often would be broken - especially soloing against some things. Sleep Bolts make it so easy to do SA or SA + weapon skill on many, many things.


ACC bonus I through III (if DNC gets evasion bonus and our exclusive WS we should get ACC bonus)

Yes to this.


A trait with increasing tiers that reduces delay when using dagger weapons similar to how Martial Arts works with hand to hand.

I already have times when I do about 12 or 14 attacks before stopping (because Triple Attack or Double Attack trigger with Dual Wield from /NIN), so I'm going to say this idea might break us a bit.


Magic evasion trait.

Agree with this.


Change Sneak Attack back to how it worked before 2004 (only needed to be out of the mob's cone of sight). Standing behind another player with Trick Attack active should also count as being "out of sight" for Sneak Attack.

Like the idea of Sneak Attack to some extent. Being out of the line of sight, yes, but if a PLD Tarutaru is taking, my fat Galka butt can't possibly be hidden by a tiny Tarutaru.