Expansion (Seekers of Adoulin) to have PvP content?

[kingfury]

After all these years (9+yrs), I'm still waiting for some good o'l fashioned PvP content to be added to FFXI. Didn't enjoy any of the previous PvP systems due to certain constraints personally, but I purposed my own PvP concept back in 2011, but I'm not sure if it was considered as it's own thread so the Devs could respond and junk. So... Bump!

*Question: Will Seekers of Adoulin bring a new system of PvP content with it's new lands and content?

*My suggestions for PvP(from my old Gyms of Vana'diel thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1978-The-FFXI-Gyms-of-Vana-diel-Self-Improvement-Reborn%21)):


Player vs Player (PvP) Cover(View Larger (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/PvP-Cover-Web.jpg))
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/PvP-Cover-Web.jpg
Description: What good would it do to only prove one's self worthy against Npc's and monsters alone when there's an ocean of able-body Player challengers ready and willing to except the invitation? Player vs Player matches cater to all those craving to prove to both friends and enemies alike just how powerful they are in battle.

System Mechanics:
PvP Matches would be made up of 4 game modes called "Versus", "Battle Royal", "Tag Team", and "Brawl", each having 3 optional versions in which these modes can be played including "Standard", "Official", and "Enhanced" (ex. Versus(mode)+Standard(version), Versus+Official, or Versus+Enhanced, etc.). Gym manuals would be found in the middle of PvP game rooms where the current leading member of the participants party would set the Game mode and version option, as well as assign party members to their desired teams to initiate the match. All participating members waiting outside in the Gymnasium lobby would be warped inside the game room upon the start of the match.

PvP Gym Manual (View Larger (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/PvP-frame-1.jpg)):

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/PvP-frame-1.jpg

All members warped inside (View Larger (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/PvP-frame-2.jpg)):

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/PvP-frame-2.jpg

Unlike other current PvP game systems in FFXI, equipment swapping via the use of the equipment menu and macro's will be allowed without penalty in this system. No EXP will be lost upon being K.O.'d during a match, or losing a PvP match. With 4 modes of game play, and up to 12 ways to enjoy them, there is sure to be a play style that suites the waves of players that would participate. Tokens are the reward for emerging as the victor(s) in a PvP match. Subsequently, the victors from all PvP matches would be recorded and made readily available for inquiry via the "Player Challenges" (the tournament-styled leader boards) Npc positioned in the Gymnasium lobby. Greater rewards await top ranking Players via the "Player Challenges" leader boards such as unique and powerful Gym Medals and items/equipment.

The 4 Modes of Gameplay:
"Versus"- 2 combatants go head to head in battle. The objective of this game mode is to K.O. your opponent 3-4 times (K.O. count dependent on the "Versus* version option* of play"). The Player that achieves this goal 1st will emerge victorious.

Versus Game Mode (View Larger (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/PvP-frame-3.jpg)):

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/PvP-frame-3.jpg

"Battle Royal"- 2-6 combatants go head to head in battle. The objective of this game mode is to be the last Player standing. Each player will have a K.O. limit of 3-4 times (K.O. count dependent on the "Battle Royal *version option* of play"). The Player left standing will emerge victorious.

Battle Royal Game Mode (View Larger (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/PvP-frame-4.jpg)):

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/PvP-frame-4.jpg

"Tag Team"- Teams consisting of 2-3 Players, select 1 combatant at a time to go head to head in battle. The objective of this game mode is for one tag team to be the 1st to successfully K.O. each of the opposing team members 2-3 times.(K.O. count dependent on the "Tag Team *version option* of play"). The 1st team to achieve this goal will emerge victorious. Although team members cannot directly aid the selected combatant engaged in head to head combat, the team member engaged in battle will be able to "Tag Out" of their current battle at any time allowing another team member to take their place. HP/MP will gradually be restored to any team member that Tags out of battle. Team members that tag out must wait at least 30 seconds before again being able to become a substitute option. If two team members have already been K.O.'d and are awaiting the reset of their 30sec cool down timer and only one member remains fighting, both cool down members will have their timers reset to 0 should that remaining member be K.O.'d and have to begin their 30sec cool down.

Tag Team Game Mode (View Larger (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/PvP-frame-5.jpg)):

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/PvP-frame-5.jpg

"Brawl"- Teams consisting of 2-3 Players go head to head in battle. The objective of this game mode is to K.O. each member of the opposing team 3-4 times each (K.O. count dependent on the "Brawl *version option* of play"). The team member(s) left standing will emerge victorious.

Brawl Game mode (View Larger (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/PvP-Cover-Web.jpg)):

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/PvP-Cover-Web.jpg

The 3 optional versions of the Game Modes:
"Standard"- In Standard versions of play, Players will enter into battle with no special battle benefits or enhancements other than a special instant reraise effect (instant Reraise upon being K.O.'d, and all HP/MP is restored with no weakness). All damage calculation for Melee, Ranged, and Magic attacks present throughout Vana'diel would function as normal in this mode. This is the barest/rawest of all version options. Players choosing this version option should expect quick and fast pace battles, with a myriad of different battle experience levels from opponents. The infamous "One-Shot Kill" will be possible in this mode, so bring you're A game when attempting Game Modes with this version option selected.

"Official"- In Official versions of play, Players will enter into battle with special battle benefits (+10 to all stats, +10 HP/MP regen/refresh, and +2 regain) and...(read more ↓)



"Enhanced"- In Enhanced versions of play, Players will enter into battle with all the benefits/enhancements from the "Official" version option of play (stat buffs,max HP/MP, dmg resistance, etc.), plus...(read more ↓)



Curbing The Effect of Certain Magic Spells
All magic spells and TP moves during PvP matches that inflict Stun, Petrification, Bind, Silence, Gravity, or Sleep will have a maximum duration of up to 5 seconds. Players will rapidly build resistance after being effected by these types of status effects multiple times until finally becoming immune.

Option to View/Save/and or Email Replays of PvP Matches
In similar fashion to the current in-game "Goblin Footprint" replay cutscene functionality, Gymnasium Npc's positioned directly outside of the training room doors would allow players that have recently participated in a PvP match, or anyone else...(read more ↓)



Thanks for giving us another expansion Devs!

[Trisscar]

I can honestly say I don't care one iota of PvP and believe it the sovereign of small minded people trying to prove how much 'better' they are than everyone else... But it was worth reading this thread for your artwork alone.

[Luvbunny]

You surely put a lot of work and thoughts on this, great job btw. One can only hope that SE would implement this. As usual there will be haters out there that think this is just a e-peen contest. But doing it with a bunch of your friends testing their jobs capabilities and what each jobs can do can be quite fun. Sharing knowledge, experimenting, etc...

[kingfury]

Thanks Trisscar /

Unfortunately, so far all attempts to create good PvP content made by the Devs haven't been imbued with a true "Healthy competitive" spirit to their systems, so you end up with PvP that feels devoid a soul.
It should (in my opinion) feel like a professional sport feels, or something that everyone wants to watch with popcorn. A true colosseum event which pit the most skilled players against each other would be truly epic. Until the Devs produce something that gives this kind of feeling, anything else would be lacking.

Imagine routing for your favorite player or player team as they advance towards something Super Bowl-like where other players have also endured dozens of battles to reach the final face off match. Again, it would be something that would draw crowds of players as a scheduled event and with the proper implementation, could become a main stay story wise as well as player training goes. Something like the line that Proximo says in Gladiator:

"So finally after 5 years of scratching a living in flea infested villages we are finally going back to where we belong, the Colosseum. Oh you should see the Colosseum, Spaniard. 50,000 Romans watching every movement of your sword, willing you to make that killer blow. The silence before you strike, and the noise afterwards, it rises, rises like...like a storm, as if you were the Thunder God himself."

[Trisscar]

Do you still make sigs?

[kingfury]

Do you still make sigs?
-------------------------
Detailed Answer: "Ummmm..."

Simple Answer: "Yep" :)

[Modoru]

I might ask for one if I ever bother thinking up the description.

[0nionKn1ght]

While your artwork is insanely good, the idea itself is not. FFXI is not a PvP focused or orientated game, and the very mechanics don't make PvP even remotely playable. You have seen how bad Brenner, Ballista and the other weird variations of what is essentially basketball are, and while playable, they are mountains away from other MMo variants.

I always loved FFXI for not being focused on PvP content, it's a PvE game by nature, and story drives it, not who can do more numbers to who.

Also if I could convince you to make me a sig, I would send you my firstborn :D

I would love a Hume Male (Face 2 Hair A "Rafale" look http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061113101355/ffxi/images/thumb/6/61/Hm2a.jpg/70px-Hm2a.jpg ) named Ashbringer, wearing RDM Duelist's set in combat with anything, doing the refresh/haste cycle :D - Would be lovely!

[RagingAvatar]

I think this sounds ace to be honest. On top of this, I'd like to see a website where we can watch streamed versions of matches, web leaderboards as well as a system where we can log-in to a website and look at our storage and equipment to work out the best gear set for how we want to play.

I really like your artwork and if you get a chance, would you mind making me a signature also?
I'd like to have a hume male RDM, wearing the traditional style RDM gear, head titled slightly forward with his back to the camera, holding the brim of his hat, with a wry smile. I'd like him to be holding a rapier in one hand a rose in the other. :)
Oh and my character name is Dhylan. :)

[Demon6324236]

Idea = Awesome.
Chances of happening = Non-existent.
Reason = Balance/SE would never spend this much time & work on ideas that not enough players ask to be improved or expanded upon.
My input on it, good idea, and would love to see it. The very idea that it would be combat focused would be grand as I find it annoying that the only way to fight as of right now is by avoiding what the PvP matches were actually made for.

[Demon6324236]

I think this sounds ace to be honest. On top of this, I'd like to see a website where we can watch streamed versions of matches, web leaderboards as well as a system where we can log-in to a website and look at our storage and equipment to work out the best gear set for how we want to play.

I really like your artwork and if you get a chance, would you mind making me a signature also?
I'd like to have a hume male RDM, wearing the traditional style RDM gear, head titled slightly forward with his back to the camera, holding the brim of his hat, with a wry smile. I'd like him to be holding a rapier in one hand a rose in the other. :)
Oh and my character name is Dhylan. :)

No offense but it does say your name under your picture when you post. :x

[Trisscar]

Idea = Awesome.
Chances of happening = Non-existent.
Reason = Balance/SE would never spend this much time & work on ideas that not enough players ask to be improved or expanded upon.
My input on it, good idea, and would love to see it. The very idea that it would be combat focused would be grand as I find it annoying that the only way to fight as of right now is by avoiding what the PvP matches were actually made for.

As much as I dislike the whole PvP nonsense I'd rather be a real PvP then a faux PvP like with old world HNMs, so the epeen is contained and normal players don't get dragged into it.

[kingfury]

While your artwork is insanely good, the idea itself is not. FFXI is not a PvP focused or orientated game, and the very mechanics don't make PvP even remotely playable. You have seen how bad Brenner, Ballista and the other weird variations of what is essentially basketball are, and while playable, they are mountains away from other MMo variants.
I always loved FFXI for not being focused on PvP content, it's a PvE game by nature, and story drives it, not who can do more numbers to who.
--------------------
Thanks in regards to the art ^^/

While the the core of your reasoning against a successful PvP system within FFXI are actually quite true considering the bare bones framework of the game, there are however in fact ways to balance the core mechanics to create a very enjoyable PvP system if done with the proper care and design.

I for one would "cry foul" if I was pitted against most jobs in FFXI due to the horribly "cheap" and unfair nature of most of the abilities at our disposal since not even most monsters are coded to spam enfeebling spells and abilities like player characters can on them. This too, however, can be balanced so players can use strategy to overcome one another and have fun knowing the fight was balanced regardless of who they're fighting against.

Just look at the core framework of most successful "fighting games" like Marvel vs Capcom or Tekken for example. You have tons of different player types/characters that use multitudes of different abilities to overcome their opponents. Yet, at the core of the game play, every character has a roughly equal chance to win by using strategy. Every character has the same amount of Hit points at the beginning of each round with an equal durability to physical and projectile attacks.
As a plus, most fighting games now include 2-3 abilities that all characters have to use to either manage or deal with certain skills and abilities that could be deemed too easily abused(ex. Ryu & Kens Fireball). At the end of all this, you have battle options that allow players the choice of certain parameters of the actual fight.

Now, even with all this in place, players can still devise a strategy that most players would call "cheap"(unfair), but within all the boundaries of the system, another opponent should be able to change their fighting strategy in real time based on each new combatant to deal with such situations. This is why many of these types of games are so successful, and all it takes is careful planning by the Developers.
FFXI can indeed create a unique PvP system that forces a certain level of equal footing when pitting player against player if the Devs focus on similar development strategies used in the industry leading fighting games. In my purposed PvP idea, the game version "Official" would be the "forced equal footing" mode to place on top of FFXI's core system. It can of course be enhanced with further planning and even more balanced parameters, but it can be done :)

All in all, PvP in MMOs just like Street Fighter, isn't for everyone and it would attract players that enjoy strategy during battle and competition.


Also if I could convince you to make me a sig, I would send you my firstborn :D

I would love a Hume Male (Face 2 Hair A "Rafale" look http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061113101355/ffxi/images/thumb/6/61/Hm2a.jpg/70px-Hm2a.jpg ) named Ashbringer, wearing RDM Duelist's set in combat with anything, doing the refresh/haste cycle :D - Would be lovely!
---------------------
I'm sure I can be convinced without your 1st born lol

[JouriStarz]

Didn't they say they were adding PVP in the expansion? Its supposed to be a monster play type thing.

[Trisscar]

Didn't they say they were adding PVP in the expansion? Its supposed to be a monster play type thing.

Yeah, Play as a monster was announced but the details are still unknown whether it is PvP; and it was announced as an update for current FFxi, not as part of SoA.

[kingfury]

You surely put a lot of work and thoughts on this, great job btw. One can only hope that SE would implement this.


I think this sounds ace to be honest. On top of this, I'd like to see a website where we can watch streamed versions of matches, web leaderboards as well as a system where we can log-in to a website and look at our storage and equipment to work out the best gear set for how we want to play.

I really like your artwork--


Idea = Awesome.
My input on it, good idea, and would love to see it. The very idea that it would be combat focused would be grand as I find it annoying that the only way to fight as of right now is by avoiding what the PvP matches were actually made for.
--------------------------
Thanks guys for the compliments ^^/


Didn't they say they were adding PVP in the expansion? Its supposed to be a monster play type thing.
--------------------------
Oh yeah, I remember reading about that. (Diggin for the quote...)

From the 2012 Roadmap Thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22873-FINAL-FANTASY-XI-2012-Roadmap):
"Two new battle systems and are also scheduled to be introduced and expanded during this time. One system will involve dungeon exploration, while the other will allow PCs to play as monsters."
I thought I read a more detailed description than this, but I can't seem to find it. Still, this isn't really the PvP system most players would consider when speaking on the topic. It could indeed be entertaining if done properly, but I was hoping to get an answer concerning a fresh new take on Player character(s) vs Player character(s) ;)

[Demon6324236]

Yeah, Play as a monster was announced but the details are still unknown whether it is PvP; and it was announced as an update for current FFxi, not as part of SoA.

It is PvP, that I remember them saying at Vanafest. They were talking about how you defeat other players to unlock other monsters you can play as, and basically level up. Also you don't have to follow conventional move lists for your mobs you play as, for instance you could have a bee with the move set of a King Behemoth. So when another player comes up to attack you, you can unleash Meteor upon them. They also said it would be only in certain areas seeing as not all areas are large enough for larger monsters, again Behemoth was an example, which means it will likely be focused in FoV areas, you can opt in or out depending if you want to participate or not.

They also said you could play as a player vs monster players, but thats the only details I remember off the top of my head. As for it being part of SoA, I think not, however I am not sure.

[Trisscar]

Thanks for the information Demon.

For your services:
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8668/fishystickwh4.jpg

[Demon6324236]

Thanks for the information Demon.

For your services:
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8668/fishystickwh4.jpg

I saw this, and my mind instantly jumped to South Park...
Jimmy:Hey Cartman, do you like fish sticks?
Cartman:Sure I like fish sticks.
Jimmy:Do you like to put fish sticks in your mouth?
Cartman:Of course I like to put fish sticks in my mouth.
Jimmy:Wow, you must be a gay fish!

[nyheen]

king, your idea is great it would be nice if they used that idea. dont understand why people keep saying "play WoW if you want PVP", or "play another MMO for pvp", why not add more into the game iam already playing and like? it would be the same like saying go play bass fishing for ps3 if you want fishing, if you want a real cooking game play cooking mama.

this a rpg, what fun would it be if they didn have pvp, or add extra stuff in it.

[kingfury]

It is PvP, that I remember them saying at Vanafest. They were talking about how you defeat other players to unlock other monsters you can play as, and basically level up. Also you don't have to follow conventional move lists for your mobs you play as, for instance you could have a bee with the move set of a King Behemoth. So when another player comes up to attack you, you can unleash Meteor upon them. They also said it would be only in certain areas seeing as not all areas are large enough for larger monsters, again Behemoth was an example, which means it will likely be focused in FoV areas, you can opt in or out depending if you want to participate or not.

They also said you could play as a player vs monster players, but thats the only details I remember off the top of my head. As for it being part of SoA, I think not, however I am not sure.
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Very cool, thanks for the detailed info /

Again, it's sounds quite entertaining as an alternate form of PvP that could be ultra unique for FFXI, but it would still be a bummer to never get to truly face off with other highly skilled players... y'know... as players. We spend years building ourselves only to show off what gear we have but never how skilled we are against another skilled, actively thinking and calculating player.

[Lollerblades]

I do agree that FFXI lacks in content for pvp ... I think there's room for improvement on it as everything should be there for personal player preference , just because certain people don't like it doesn't mean the next person does as well ...

Squeenix need to hire you sir - its a fantastic idea, I'd definitely use it , we are in need of something new and interesting ... But alas it seems most people are happy to plod along doing the same shit day in day out ?!

[Kavik]

I personally love this idea. I love PvP but i HATE the gear change penalty and the fact that i have to reserve an island or go under a lvl cap (straight out ballista, which never happens anymore due to lack of participation). I personally am a PvP junky, not because i'm super good at it, which i'm really not, but because it is so fun to try to outwit another player. Mobs have predictable kinds of patterns you can at least sort of anticipate. PvP you really have no idea how that particular person is going to react to a given scenerio. Case and point, a mob you silence will remain silenced until it wears off, a player may just use an echo drop, or choose to run away, the silencing player has to decide whether to re-silence or give chase etc. As a quicker fix, they could make ballista matches more like (current) brenner set ups, which most people use to PvP. Make it so you have the option to fight people 1v1 in a first to 3 kind of thing. Still though love the idea. sadly, i doubt it will ever happen.

[kingfury]

I do agree that FFXI lacks in content for pvp ... I think there's room for improvement on it as everything should be there for personal player preference , just because certain people don't like it doesn't mean the next person does as well ...
Squeenix need to hire you sir - its a fantastic idea, I'd definitely use it , we are in need of something new and interesting ... But alas it seems most people are happy to plod along doing the same shit day in day out ?!
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Agreed, and thanks for the feedback ^^/


I personally love this idea. I love PvP but i HATE the gear change penalty and the fact that i have to reserve an island or go under a lvl cap (straight out ballista, which never happens anymore due to lack of participation). I personally am a PvP junky, not because i'm super good at it, which i'm really not, but because it is so fun to try to outwit another player. Mobs have predictable kinds of patterns you can at least sort of anticipate. PvP you really have no idea how that particular person is going to react to a given scenerio. Case and point, a mob you silence will remain silenced until it wears off, a player may just use an echo drop, or choose to run away, the silencing player has to decide whether to re-silence or give chase etc. As a quicker fix, they could make ballista matches more like (current) brenner set ups, which most people use to PvP. Make it so you have the option to fight people 1v1 in a first to 3 kind of thing. Still though love the idea. sadly, i doubt it will ever happen.
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This exactly! Thanks for the feedback ^^/
(Showing my age a bit here but w/e lol) I remember back to the golden age of the glorious "Arcade Days" and not knowing what kind of competition would meet you there lol. Of course Street Fighter was insanely popular back then, and you couldn't tell the skill level of any of the folks awaiting to play against you next, but it was a feeling like none other if you were the continued victor over the line of competition... Sigh*... the good o'l days. (/wipes tear)
(End dreamy memory sequence)

Anyway :) Could you imagine the line of competition in FFXI if there was a undefeated player woopin' the stuffing out of countless folks?! The word would spread server-wide and throughout forums alike, inspiring new and aspiring combatants to try their metal at toppling the champion. Ahhh, and then you would be reviving the good o'l days of the true competition spirit in video games. (/looks off into the distance smiling)

[Aeonk]

I can understand people not liking the competitive nature/attitude of a pvp environment, but to say the game isn't made for pvp is down right ignorant.

There is a huge amount of depth and structure to XI's pvp that most people will never fully comprehend, even ballista veterans are still working it out.

Hell when a DRK/SCH can destroy a RDM in a 1v1 match, despite our PvE experiences telling us that /SCH is a sub for WHM and maybe RDM's only, that right there should be an indicator as to what can truly be done in the hands of a good player. No monster in the game is going to challenge you the way another person will.

And besides all that, it's just mindless fun. The game could use a little more of that, unless people are about to seriously tell me they enjoy Chocobo Blinkers and Logwatch 24/7.

[vienne]

i've never done PvP but the whole idea looks like fun, it also looks intresting to explore parts of your job in a different way since their is no way to tell how people will react and the idea of leaderboards also sounds very nice.
and also as everyone else said, love your artwork^^

[Caketime]

People who are against pvp just don't want to directly compete against other players and suffer embarrassment, because they'd rather have the indirect competition that we deal with in addition to each new battlefield event that just happens to play the exact same way every time. This game's pvp systems are actually quite deep and highly strategical, their cumbersome minigames not included. Years ago SE stated they support the idea of pvp but with the requirement that it offer something more than simply playing whack a mole with one another, that's where we got Ballista and Brenner. Schedules, island reservations, these things ruined pvp for FFXI. The spirit of competition and want to stab your fellow adventurers until they stop moving should be more than enough to do that without so many variables thrown in to convolute the situation. OP's idea is simple, and awesome.

[kingfury]

I can understand people not liking the competitive nature/attitude of a pvp environment, but to say the game isn't made for pvp is down right ignorant.

There is a huge amount of depth and structure to XI's pvp that most people will never fully comprehend, even ballista veterans are still working it out.

Hell when a DRK/SCH can destroy a RDM in a 1v1 match, despite our PvE experiences telling us that /SCH is a sub for WHM and maybe RDM's only, that right there should be an indicator as to what can truly be done in the hands of a good player. No monster in the game is going to challenge you the way another person will.

And besides all that, it's just mindless fun. The game could use a little more of that, unless people are about to seriously tell me they enjoy Chocobo Blinkers and Logwatch 24/7.
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Agreed, and thanks for the feedback /

Only, I would say that properly planned PvP would be the most mentally taxing battle event players of FFXI would ever experience. You hit the nail on the head when you said "No monster in the game is going to challenge you the way another person will." No player could truly ever know what kind of battle they were about to have, and as a result would have to stay fully attentive to what the their combatant would bring to the table every single time.

It's what ffxi veterans friends of mine have quit the game for in the past, they just felt no content was truly "NEW" but just reskinned and the parameters set higher than previous content. Such a PvP system purposed in the OP is exactly what this game needs to truly challenge the minds of the players in "NEW" ways.

I should also say that the upcoming "Play as a monster" PvP system will in fact touch on this challenging concept for sure, but one thing still has me wondering. Will other players attacking you be able to gear swap during this game mode? If so, what will happen to the persons Lockon playing as the monster? If they've solved this problem, then this would be a great thing in reference to future PvP systems.

[kingfury]

i've never done PvP but the whole idea looks like fun, it also looks intresting to explore parts of your job in a different way since their is no way to tell how people will react and the idea of leaderboards also sounds very nice.
and also as everyone else said, love your artwork^^
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Thanks for the feedback and the compliment ^^/

[Evviva]

It should (in my opinion) feel like a professional sport feels, or something that everyone wants to watch with popcorn. A true colosseum event which pit the most skilled players against each other would be truly epic. Until the Devs produce something that gives this kind of feeling, anything else would be lacking.

I do not intend to rain on your parade... however, Ballista, when played the way it was meant to be, exemplifies (http://vyiv.wordpress.com/) exactly what you're describing.


Wonderful artwork, great idea, cheers :)

[saevel]

The basic mechanics of FFXI are not balanced for PVP at all. The interlocking and supporting nature of the job system makes is so that any attempt at PVP ends up with a select few job (or job combos) rising to the top. Negating enfeebling magic makes the super DD's immediately the best (WAR / DRK / SAM / BLU) for group play. Allowing equip swaps further unbalances things due to SE playing favorites with gear selection and availability.

I'm not against the idea of PVP, but FFXI just isn't designed for it. WoW had to implement an entirely different battle mechanic (resilience) and gear system just to have PVP be balanced. FFXI would have to do the exact same in order to make it even remotely functional. They'd have to go a step further and redesign each job just for PvP to make it balanced or enjoyable.

It seems their "Player vs Monster" is a compromise. Rather then try to redesign the battle engine for PC vs PC game play, they instead allow one PC to control what it usually an AI based boss. This retains the PvE mechanics while also allowing players to fight each other.

[kingfury]

I do not intend to rain on your parade... however, Ballista, when played the way it was meant to be, exemplifies (http://vyiv.wordpress.com/) exactly what you're describing.


Wonderful artwork, great idea, cheers :)
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Thanks for the compliment and feedback ^^/

I'm sure they started with the core concept of what I'm describing in the OP, but then they added the mini-game aspect to it. Ballista is indeed team vs team battle, but in order to be what I'm proposing, it would have to shed just about all the unnecessary elements of what's in it. The entertainment factor IS the PvP itself which breeds strategy all by itself, mini-game excluded.

The reason Street Fighter is still a mainstay in the gaming industry after all these years is mostly due to its "Jump in and Play" game design. There are parameters and rules that govern the game, but when it comes down to "how you play the game" this is what brand new players and veterans alike see:

ROUND 1... FIGHT!
http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww150/maikeandre/round-1-fight-1.png
And after that, you just fight! You fight till the other guy can't fight anymore. Simple, clean, and entertaining :)

Not to say that Ballista is flawed for being laced with extra depth, its just most folks that wish to participate in PvP, literally just want to "fight" another player. Nothing more, nothing less.

Another large factor, is no one gets to sit around and view these battles as a colosseum setting would allow. You and your team are warped away to an independent and isolated zone so no one else can see the action as it unfolds. In my proposal, the idea would be to draw a crowd per each battle so that onlookers could root for their favorites and even place bets on the outcome if they choose. Even if the viewing effect was like that of zoning into the colosseum area and being able to toggle between which player you could follow visually for each onlooker, it would still be awesome.

[Aeonk]

The basic mechanics of FFXI are not balanced for PVP at all. The interlocking and supporting nature of the job system makes is so that any attempt at PVP ends up with a select few job (or job combos) rising to the top. Negating enfeebling magic makes the super DD's immediately the best (WAR / DRK / SAM / BLU) for group play. Allowing equip swaps further unbalances things due to SE playing favorites with gear selection and availability.

I'm not against the idea of PVP, but FFXI just isn't designed for it. WoW had to implement an entirely different battle mechanic (resilience) and gear system just to have PVP be balanced. FFXI would have to do the exact same in order to make it even remotely functional. They'd have to go a step further and redesign each job just for PvP to make it balanced or enjoyable.

It seems their "Player vs Monster" is a compromise. Rather then try to redesign the battle engine for PC vs PC game play, they instead allow one PC to control what it usually an AI based boss. This retains the PvE mechanics while also allowing players to fight each other.

You're thinking in terms of PvE. yea maybe those 4 jobs are going to win a parse. I can also see those 4 jobs dying to a PLD.

Also, in group play it's the "weaker jobs" that suddenly become very powerful, because their weaknesses are being compensated for by the composition of the group and/or the fact that they're not the focus of attention 100% of the time. Take a look at NIN. In a 1v1, Diaga spam can turn a NIN into a pretty squishy target. Put them in an official match where the enemies don't have you targetted 24/7, and they become a hit and run master. Most people won't even bother attacking a NIN, just because they didn't sub RDM for Diaga spam, and as such would have to beat them down the long, very difficult way.

DRG's jumps are devastating for someone trying to escape with a sliver of HP left, RNG is always solid damage provided they have a frontline DD wiping shadows/third eye. and COR can deal very heavy damage with Wildfire to pretty much everyone, provided they have time to prepare/build TP and aren't getting their face smashed in.

Every job can do well in ballista. Just takes a little skill, outside the box thinking, and most importantly: cooperation. Personally I'd be very eager to see an official match with max participants where both the teams operated with the level of coordination/strategy of an endgame LS. Would be absolutely amazing to watch.

[kingfury]

The basic mechanics of FFXI are not balanced for PVP at all. The interlocking and supporting nature of the job system makes is so that any attempt at PVP ends up with a select few job (or job combos) rising to the top. Negating enfeebling magic makes the super DD's immediately the best (WAR / DRK / SAM / BLU) for group play. Allowing equip swaps further unbalances things due to SE playing favorites with gear selection and availability.

I'm not against the idea of PVP, but FFXI just isn't designed for it. WoW had to implement an entirely different battle mechanic (resilience) and gear system just to have PVP be balanced. FFXI would have to do the exact same in order to make it even remotely functional. They'd have to go a step further and redesign each job just for PvP to make it balanced or enjoyable.

It seems their "Player vs Monster" is a compromise. Rather then try to redesign the battle engine for PC vs PC game play, they instead allow one PC to control what it usually an AI based boss. This retains the PvE mechanics while also allowing players to fight each other.
----------------------
Thanks for your feedback and opinion /

I Agree 100% that FFXI's basic battle system as it stands is not balanced at all for PvP. There would indeed have to be a "forced balancing" type of system to make this idea even viable, but it is very possible to create such a balance for this game. Even with the balanced system, however, I still suggested choices for the player so they could be the ones ultimately determining which system they would like to battle under.

What I suggested in the OP was this:
"The 3 optional versions of the Game Modes: Standard, Official, and Enhanced"

"Standard"-
In Standard versions of play, Players will enter into battle with no special battle benefits or enhancements other than a special instant reraise effect (instant Reraise upon being K.O.'d, and all HP/MP is restored with no weakness). All damage calculation for Melee, Ranged, and Magic attacks present throughout Vana'diel would function as normal in this mode. This is the barest/rawest of all version options. Players choosing this version option should expect quick and fast pace battles, with a myriad of different battle experience levels from opponents. The infamous "One-Shot Kill" will be possible in this mode, so bring you're A game when attempting Game Modes with this version option selected.

"Official"-
In Official versions of play, Players will enter into battle with special battle benefits (+10 to all stats, +10 HP/MP regen/refresh, and +2 regain) and enhancements to HP/MP(All Players will have a set maximum amount of 6k HP at the start of each match, and a set maximum amount of 2k MP), increased durability to both physical and magical dmg(-25%Dmg taken), and a special instant reraise effect (instant Reraise upon being K.O.'d, and all HP/MP is restored with with possible temporary weakness, 1min**, depending on if the Game Mode is set to Tag Team). The benefits from this version option reflect the A.M.A.N.'s wish to "fairly" balance combat between all combatants. This is the most balanced of all game mode version options. Players choosing this version option should expect matches to consist of combatants with well planned battle strategies and extensive battle experience. No Player in this version option will need to fear defeat from "One-Shot kills". Skillchains accompanied with magic bursts, on the other hand, is another thing all together. Plan ahead before entering into a battle with this version option selected.

"Enhanced"-
In Enhanced versions of play, Players will enter into battle with all the benefits/enhancements from the "Official" version option of play (stat buffs,max HP/MP, dmg resistance, etc.), plus the allowed use of special temporary battle items/medicenes, and the use of "Gym Medals" (regimen enhancing key items acquired in other Gym Programs) and a special instant reraise effect (instant Reraise upon being K.O.'d, and all HP/MP is restored with with possible temporary weakness, ** 1min**, depending on if the Game Mode is set to Tag Team). This mode allows Players that have acquired powerful Gym Medals to enjoy them with free reign, and to mercilessly unleash their benefits upon other Players. Players choosing this version option should expect matches to consist of exploding damage all around them! With the use of temp. items and Medals, there's no telling what kind of battle you're in for. Acquiring multiple powerful Gym Medals will set players apart in this version option. Be readily prepared!
With the "Official game mode" being the most balanced of the 3 options, there could be an even footing with enough preparation by the player. Now would that mean a WHM would be able to go toe to toe with a WAR on the same Damage dealing terms? Perhaps not exactly, no, but they wouldn't be crushed in the 1st few hits which would allow some time to devise a strategy.

I too agree that the "Play as a Monster" system could be a breath of fresh air in the entertainment department, but I still think it's a bit of a let down to not be able to fight a Player character just as ferociously as I do against a monster, gear swapping and all. Gear swapping is apart of how the Devs designed this games battle system, so why not let us utilize what we utilize as we normally play the game? It's how we as combatants can charged confidently into multiple battle situations throughout Vana'diel and truly have the tools and gear to deal with most all of it.

[saevel]

@kf,

Totally understand where your coming from, I just don't see SE putting the necessary time and resources it requires into it. There are still so many things broke in the game right now that they haven't even bothered to fix.

What I mean by basic battle mechanics are things like attack vs defense, magic, PDT / MDT and gear swaps. Removing gear swaps nerfs the magic based users, hence the melee jobs spiking up to the top. People talk about strategy but honestly when we only have ~1600 HP it would be trivial for any DD to whack that down. That forces everyone to wear PDT and it just kinda snowballs from there.

Currently the top three for one on one are RDM, PLD and BLU. It's due to their survivability and vast array for cheap moves (RDM and BLU). In order to "balance" against that you'd have to reduce the effectiveness of those moves, yet if you do that those jobs suddenly become crap compared to the melee's. I mentioned the above melees for group play, they would just gang up on one opponent and immediately kill them, then move on to another, while the enemy team does the same to them. Bringing a healer wouldn't work as they would be the first person to immediately die and would leave one team with 3 melee's vs 4 melees.

It just gets stupid as each scenario is played out, players will always seek the fastest and most "efficient" way to win not the "way it was meant to be played". FFXI just has too many holes in it.

[Sparthos]

The success or failure of monster PvP will come down to how deep the gameplay is, how fair combinations are and what the incentive are to keep individuals at it.

[Damane]

gearswaping is penaltied in Ballista because you could otherwise change every sec your gear and nooone would be able to target you (thus even landing an attack). Thats the idea behind the penalty. If you want to make gearswaps possible in your pvp you would need to solve that problem, otherwise you wont be able to use gearswaps without makeing the pvp impossible to play.

[Mathieu]

The problem isn't that FFXI is kind of imbalanced. It is imbalanced completely past the point that those sorts of measures actually are going to be viable ways of fixing the problems. Every class would basically need separate stats and abilities to make true PvP viable.

The problem with FFXI's current system is that the relative offense, defense, and support capabilities against targets with player level stats is completely disproportionate. It isn't just a matter of adjusting X ability by 4.5% or increasing the recast on Y ability by 50%. When it comes to a PvP setting, some classes are always going to bring far, far more to the table than others. "Working together" doesn't fix all the problems.

Not a lot of people want to see content implemented that inherently is only going to allow specific jobs to be competitive. Most people would rather see content designed to keep as many jobs as possible at least vaguely competitive. This is also an almost exclusively PvE game that has been out for ten years. No PvP content is going to attract that many players and most PvP focused players never bothered with this game in the first place.

[Ronin]

I can honestly say I don't care one iota of PvP and believe it the sovereign of small minded people trying to prove how much 'better' they are than everyone else... But it was worth reading this thread for your artwork alone.

You're the small minded one. You're assuming all PVPers think alike. You know who else groups groups of people up and think they're all the same? RACISTS!

I love WPVP. I'm not competitive, nor do I have the quickest reflexes or beat people in PVP to show them how much better I am than them. I love PVP for the strategy, teamwork, comradery, epic battles, and the amazing experiences. I find it all fun.

For example..
This one Alliance guy in WoW was attacking a Horde town full of low level people so I did what I always did and fought him to protect the low levels. We fought up and down the huge area 1 versus 1 through both faction camps inside and outside buildings with low levels of each side jumping in to help occasionally before being swatted.
We rarely died since he was a Discipline Priest and I was a Warlock, we were evenly matched and geared fighting for over five hours non stop and we both used some great strategy and battle tactics against each other. In the end it wasn't about proving who was better than the other.

He was part of a notorious WPVP Alliance guild that spread rumors on the Horde side about their guild being racist just to build hatred from the other faction to attract WPVP. It worked.

That's just one of my PVP experiences, I could talk about the time I fought off 6 PVP geared Alliance attacking a town all by my self on a fresh 80 Warlock. It was like my very own 7 Samurai battle. Or any of my many many fun WPVP experiences.

Those were typical days on Veture Co (http://www.wowwiki.com/Server:The_Venture_Co_US).

And responding to the OP, I don't think FFXI can handle PVP. It's fighting mechanics are just too unbalanced and slow.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Usualy I berate people for asking for PvP in a game that's designed around coop play, but you left in the mithra nut shot, so I can't be mad at you KF. lol

[kingfury]

@kf,

Totally understand where your coming from, I just don't see SE putting the necessary time and resources it requires into it. There are still so many things broke in the game right now that they haven't even bothered to fix.

What I mean by basic battle mechanics are things like attack vs defense, magic, PDT / MDT and gear swaps. Removing gear swaps nerfs the magic based users, hence the melee jobs spiking up to the top. People talk about strategy but honestly when we only have ~1600 HP it would be trivial for any DD to whack that down. That forces everyone to wear PDT and it just kinda snowballs from there.

Currently the top three for one on one are RDM, PLD and BLU. It's due to their survivability and vast array for cheap moves (RDM and BLU). In order to "balance" against that you'd have to reduce the effectiveness of those moves, yet if you do that those jobs suddenly become crap compared to the melee's. I mentioned the above melees for group play, they would just gang up on one opponent and immediately kill them, then move on to another, while the enemy team does the same to them. Bringing a healer wouldn't work as they would be the first person to immediately die and would leave one team with 3 melee's vs 4 melees.

It just gets stupid as each scenario is played out, players will always seek the fastest and most "efficient" way to win not the "way it was meant to be played". FFXI just has too many holes in it.
---------------------
I hear ya and again, I agree, but apparently they are in fact investing in the Play as Monster system so they could be fixing a few things about the system in order to make that system work. I was saying earlier that I was wondering if they're going to lock gear swapping for the players that are the fighting the monster player for the same reason they locked it for our other current PvP systems. If they do in fact allow gear swaps for those players, the problem will be no different on the players playing the monsters, and they'll quickly lose their target lock on whichever target does so.

The strange thing is, that new "/display head off" command can make a helmet invisible on a player character yet still maintain the stats system side. Why cant the Devs create an invisible target that can be locked onto within our floating name text that can be invisible player side and remain regardless if we gear swap or not? Yes even if we've have "/names" toggled off, it would resemble the new /display head functionality in that the information is of course "still there" but just invisible. Seems like an easy solution since our names remain even during gear swapping.

In regards to the battle mechanics, players would indeed need HP in the upwards 6k+ range and the -PDT/-MDT to take the spike damage from Damage Dealers and Mages down a bit to allow players a chance to even survive long enough to make any battle contributions. The "gang up on the important guy" strategy would however be apart of the game no matter what I'm afraid. It's apart of most war/battle strategies in the real world in fact; "Taking out the most integral part of your combatants army to cripple their ability to fight smoothly". Every team would have to devise an opposing strategy to this logic before entering into battle.

To address the "effectiveness of certain spells", like the bump to -PDT/-MDT that would help to ease the spike damage from Damage dealers in the official mode of play, I suggested this in the OP:

"Curbing The Effect of Certain Magic Spells
All magic spells and TP moves during PvP matches that inflict Stun, Petrification, Bind, Silence, Gravity, or Sleep will have a maximum duration of up to 5 seconds. Players will rapidly build resistance after being effected by these types of status effects multiple times until finally becoming immune.

[kingfury]

The problem isn't that FFXI is kind of imbalanced. It is imbalanced completely past the point that those sorts of measures actually are going to be viable ways of fixing the problems. Every class would basically need separate stats and abilities to make true PvP viable.

The problem with FFXI's current system is that the relative offense, defense, and support capabilities against targets with player level stats is completely disproportionate. It isn't just a matter of adjusting X ability by 4.5% or increasing the recast on Y ability by 50%. When it comes to a PvP setting, some classes are always going to bring far, far more to the table than others. "Working together" doesn't fix all the problems.

Not a lot of people want to see content implemented that inherently is only going to allow specific jobs to be competitive. Most people would rather see content designed to keep as many jobs as possible at least vaguely competitive. This is also an almost exclusively PvE game that has been out for ten years. No PvP content is going to attract that many players and most PvP focused players never bothered with this game in the first place.
-------------------------
Unfortunate, but true. Thanks for the feedback /

The 1st point in bold, however, is based on if players are unable to gear swap and are fighting based on their native ffxi battle parameters which I've agreed would need to be altered greatly to make PvP viable and fair. If players were allowed the same flexibility to gear swap and plan accordingly should they find themselves facing one of those job classes that are built to last along with some added help to HP, -PDT/-MDT, curbing certain spells/TP moves and refresh/regen, there could be a chance they could fairly contend with enough skill.

The 2nd point is completely based on the Devs ability to create a "fair system" that players can enjoy. That, and what Sparthos posted earlier--

The success or failure of monster PvP will come down to how deep the gameplay is, how fair combinations are and what the incentive are to keep individuals at it.
The "Fun factor" of most competitive PvP games comes down to having either equal footing, or having the chance to plan ahead to create that equal footing should the players want to increase the difficulty by choosing to play with a character that is slower or unable to cast magic vs a faster character or a mage.

[kingfury]

Usualy I berate people for asking for PvP in a game that's designed around coop play, but you left in the mithra nut shot, so I can't be mad at you KF. lol
---------------------
(^.^) /laugh

[Mathieu]

The 1st point in bold, however, is based on if players are unable to gear swap and are fighting based on their native ffxi battle parameters which I've agreed would need to be altered greatly to make PvP viable and fair. If players were allowed the same flexibility to gear swap and plan accordingly should they find themselves facing one of those job classes that are built to last along with some added help to HP, -PDT/-MDT, curbing certain spells/TP moves and refresh/regen, there could be a chance they could fairly contend with enough skill.

The 2nd point is completely based on the Devs ability to create a "fair system" that players can enjoy. That, and what Sparthos posted earlier--

The "Fun factor" of most competitive PvP games comes down to having either equal footing, or having the chance to plan ahead to create that equal footing should the players want to increase the difficulty by choosing to play with a character that is slower or unable to cast magic vs a faster character or a mage.

No, they aren't you are trying to put words in my mouth. No amount of preparation can change the core aspects and abilities of how the classes work. Play a Bard then play a Red Mage, then try to say with a straight face that sufficient preparation and equipment selection is going to prevent the Bard from becoming a greasy smear if a semi-competent Red Mage decides they are a threat. Red Mages have multiple ways of stopping them from getting songs off and huge windows to do it. Red Mages also have vastly superior defenses against Bard debuffs.

Again, it's not a matter of adjusting some minor effects to abilities. Many abilities are simply useless or irrelevant against players. Certain things that don't matter against AI opponents are crippling against a human opponent. Hate control abilities are completely irrelevant. Removing out core abilities, which is required to make an even vaguely balanced PvP environment, just upsets anyone that wants to play the class.

[kingfury]

No, they aren't you are trying to put words in my mouth. No amount of preparation can change the core aspects and abilities of how the classes work. Play a Bard then play a Red Mage, then try to say with a straight face that sufficient preparation and equipment selection is going to prevent the Bard from becoming a greasy smear if a semi-competent Red Mage decides they are a threat. Red Mages have multiple ways of stopping them from getting songs off and huge windows to do it. Red Mages also have vastly superior defenses against Bard debuffs.

Again, it's not a matter of adjusting some minor effects to abilities. Many abilities are simply useless or irrelevant against players. Certain things that don't matter against AI opponents are crippling against a human opponent. Hate control abilities are completely irrelevant. Removing out core abilities, which is required to make an even vaguely balanced PvP environment, just upsets anyone that wants to play the class.
-----------------
Not putting words in your mouth, just driving home the point that with preparation (AND battle system enhancements) that BRD could possibly have a fighting chance to survive a RDMs onslaught.

Unfortunately, I can't speak with an educated tone on either job's full potential to overcome the other if a die hard player was at the helm controlling each in a heated PvP match that allowed them the full array of battle variety as if they were fighting under normal circumstances. I just know that if nothing else, over the years, ffxi players have continued to push the parameters of what certain jobs designed for one thing can do outside of that design.

Again, that doesn't mean that a WHM can MATCH the exact Damage Dealing prowess of that of a WAR, but with enough skill (and planning/balanced system help), that WHM can not only survive a WAR's barrage but also dish out a nice amount of damage if equipped properly to do so. Would it mean they're designed to do so based on their "core aspects" of the current ffxi battle system? No, not really, but it is possible. (I have played WHM extensively enough to speak on that jobs potential ^^)

[airsparrowhawk]

Personally I'd just like to see some sort of competitive element in FFXI, it feels that once players reach the end game it's all about the best gear or merit combinations, a leaderboard for something would be nice, aside from BCNM time records. It doesn't necessarily have to be direct PVP either, just some way to distinguish the top player(s) per job, linkshell(s) per job, player(s) per server and linkshell(s) per server would be nice.

[Secondplanet]

People who are against pvp just don't want to directly compete against other players and suffer embarrassment, because they'd rather have the indirect competition that we deal with in addition to each new battlefield event that just happens to play the exact same way every time. This game's pvp systems are actually quite deep and highly strategical, their cumbersome minigames not included. Years ago SE stated they support the idea of pvp but with the requirement that it offer something more than simply playing whack a mole with one another, that's where we got Ballista and Brenner. Schedules, island reservations, these things ruined pvp for FFXI. The spirit of competition and want to stab your fellow adventurers until they stop moving should be more than enough to do that without so many variables thrown in to convolute the situation. OP's idea is simple, and awesome.

Sorry but this kind of response is arrogance at its best, I did the limited PVP on this game before. Unless you sub nin at the time you weren't gonna get anywhere. Too many jobs are highly overpowered that it would be a pissing match more then an actual fight that has anything close to strategy. I remember someone using brd with hoards lullaby to sleep the other party then a sam came up with full tp and killed our whm with 1 shot. I know about using poison to prevent this but for people with stone skin that didn't work.

Summoner wouldn't do anywhere close to good in this, you'd just ignor our avatar use movement speed bonus gear and chase us down.

But on a side note isn't there that Colosseum in whitegate that never got used?

[Sunrider]

I've always found players' collective reaction to PVP to be rather interesting.

This game attracts in droves players that profess to loathe PVP... but have readily competed with each other in the past over timed spawns and battlefields. I'm sure it would make for an amusing study from both sociological and psychological standpoints.

Saevel raised the most important point in devs willingness to commit to quality PVP content, which has been sporadic at best. Adjustments to Ballista and Brenner, since their inception, have been half-hearted, and they utterly failed to follow through with the PVP arena that was rumoured to debut in Aht Urgan. They seem more interested in making players compete indirectly, rather than allowing direct competition simply in the spirit thereof.

A secondary concern is class balance. Simply put, some jobs are more ideal for PVP than others; hybrids like RDM, BLU, and even DNC would dominate duel-type PVP, where more specialized classes like WAR or WHM could best place their hopes in team fights where they could take out those better-equipped classes with help. The exclusionary phenomena we experience in events would carry over, except that without PVP offering rewards such as treasure the likes of that found in Voidwatch or Legion, the PVP content would be left to languish.

[Caketime]

Summoner wouldn't do anywhere close to good in this, you'd just ignor our avatar use movement speed bonus gear and chase us down.

Learn to play.

[Secondplanet]

Learn to play.

i play the job very well thank you, but if you have a war chasing you with full tp lets see how long you'll survive when they use a emp/relic/myth weaponskill on you, unless you have earthern armor on with its limited duration your dead.

[Fistandantilus]

FFXI needs some real PvP not the gimmicky crap we have been stuck with for years, and def not some play as a monster if you want to PvP nonsense. Put it in a central location. Make it accessible to everyone, and it will be popular.

[Nawesemo]

i play the job very well thank you, but if you have a war chasing you with full tp lets see how long you'll survive when they use a emp/relic/myth weaponskill on you, unless you have earthern armor on with its limited duration your dead.

Nuke hard nuke fast no mercy for the -300 fire resistance wearing war....... adapt or death will be your fate.

[nyheen]

each job got a weak point and strong point, learn how to use it well. who ever was saying about the war chasing smn etc, learn what smn can do to shutdown/slowdown his movement speed, check his gear, and know what he got,

let see if i was the smn and fighting war/dnc? /sam /nin? i would try spaming sleepga on him if he not playing by the item rules, or diabolos him down, with the gravity spam move, i may /rdm and full buffed on pdt or /nin him. it a few possible ways of winning but i dont feel like going over them. but ya you get the idea. all about trial and error

[Caketime]

i play the job very well thank you, but if you have a war chasing you with full tp lets see how long you'll survive when they use a emp/relic/myth weaponskill on you, unless you have earthern armor on with its limited duration your dead.

Bind, nuke, laugh all the way to the bank. Like I said earlier, learn to play.*

[saevel]

FFXI needs some real PvP not the gimmicky crap we have been stuck with for years, and def not some play as a monster if you want to PvP nonsense. Put it in a central location. Make it accessible to everyone, and it will be popular.

Simply not possible without retooling the entire game.

Basic game mechanics are balanced for PC's vs ridiculously strong yet stupid monsters. Players are much more capable of exploiting game mechanics like WS distance and CC's then monsters are. What would start out as "fun" would quickly deteriorate into rabid hate as those without the pimped "chosen" jobs would be pissed at their disadvantage. Pet jobs are a prime example, PvE the player can control and manipulate monster enmity to force their pet to tank, no such method exists and their pets mind as well not even be there. Pure melee's are also at an extreme disadvantage as mages / hybrids can use CC to keep the pure DD at a distance or enfeeble them so as to make them easy to kill. In that same regard pure mages lose traction to the hybrids like BLU and RDM. If SE allowed for PvP then you'd see nothing but a swarm of BLU's and a few crafty RDM's killing everyone, this would be followed by great wailing and gnashing of teeth.

If SE were to nerf enfeebling effects / magic damage then it would make the mages / hybrids nigh useless and every fight would be who can spam the most high damage WS's, MS WAR, SAM and MNK domination. You get the exact same gnashing of teeth.

There is no way for SE to win, no matter what they do one segment of the player base will hate them and claim whatever system they implemented was unfair. That is why they had the idea of Player vs Player Monster (PvPM) as a compromise. It allows them to maintain the core PvE mechanics (accuracy / evasion / LCF / pDiff / MA / ME / ect..) of the game and still allow players to combat each other. One player simply isn't a "player" anymore and instead becomes the NM with 20K or more HP, the super moves and all the resistances native to that NM but without the players equipment swaps and abilities.

[Secondplanet]

Bind, nuke, laugh all the way to the bank. Like I said earlier, learn to play.*

and if bind doesn't work? Last i checked summoner didn't have a way to bind that wasn't a rage ability so when do i nuke?? 45 seconds later and hope for the best? In that time my avatar could be dead or even health fodder for someone with drain samba.

Also since its PVP would my avatar auto-protect me or just sit there waiting for a command. Like many others said this game was made for PVE so PVP doens't work to well.

If you really want PVP go play a game based on it, Or is it that it was to much for most people and they have to make a PVE game with severely unbalanced jobs into one so they can feel better about themselves.

As i said before i know my job and knowing the job i know the limitations to it. Outside of abyssea our avatars can only survive a short time against any mob with power. Yes i can come /nin and have shadows but then when would i get a chance to heal myself? stop attacking to use carby on myself or garuda? I know most ppl would poison themselves so diablos can't sleep them, and as for ramuh i can have shock squall last for 1min easily and other times its over before i even had a chance to cast it.

My smn magic is 4lvls from cap i have been sought out for tips how to play. Stop living in the state of grandeur that i don't know this job and you do when you can't even admit there is limitations to it. If SE would finally give our abilities the boost they need then we can talk but coming for a bst who gets new pets every month you can't talk.

[nyheen]

and if bind doesn't work? Last i checked summoner didn't have a way to bind that wasn't a rage ability so when do i nuke?? 45 seconds later and hope for the best? In that time my avatar could be dead or even health fodder for someone with drain samba.

Also since its PVP would my avatar auto-protect me or just sit there waiting for a command. Like many others said this game was made for PVE so PVP doens't work to well.

If you really want PVP go play a game based on it, Or is it that it was to much for most people and they have to make a PVE game with severely unbalanced jobs into one so they can feel better about themselves.

As i said before i know my job and knowing the job i know the limitations to it. Outside of abyssea our avatars can only survive a short time against any mob with power. Yes i can come /nin and have shadows but then when would i get a chance to heal myself? stop attacking to use carby on myself or garuda? I know most ppl would poison themselves so diablos can't sleep them, and as for ramuh i can have shock squall last for 1min easily and other times its over before i even had a chance to cast it.

My smn magic is 4lvls from cap i have been sought out for tips how to play. Stop living in the state of grandeur that i don't know this job and you do when you can't even admit there is limitations to it. If SE would finally give our abilities the boost they need then we can talk but coming for a bst who gets new pets every month you can't talk.

have you ever seen them buffed up to god mages with pdt? rdm whm sch blm blu even brd etc? the ones most DDs just cant kill with physical dmg alone and ignore them in the OM battles and can be only killed by magic mostly?

smn also got that kinda pdt. just have to learn what and how to use it:)

[Ryanx]

I remember seeing a clip on the ffxi youtube page were ppl were doing pvp in what looked like a football feild then I remember WG has a small part that is not out yet and no one has no idea what that is for

[Caketime]

and if bind doesn't work? Last i checked summoner didn't have a way to bind that wasn't a rage ability so when do i nuke?? 45 seconds later and hope for the best? In that time my avatar could be dead or even health fodder for someone with drain samba.

Also since its PVP would my avatar auto-protect me or just sit there waiting for a command. Like many others said this game was made for PVE so PVP doens't work to well.

If you really want PVP go play a game based on it, Or is it that it was to much for most people and they have to make a PVE game with severely unbalanced jobs into one so they can feel better about themselves.

As i said before i know my job and knowing the job i know the limitations to it. Outside of abyssea our avatars can only survive a short time against any mob with power. Yes i can come /nin and have shadows but then when would i get a chance to heal myself? stop attacking to use carby on myself or garuda? I know most ppl would poison themselves so diablos can't sleep them, and as for ramuh i can have shock squall last for 1min easily and other times its over before i even had a chance to cast it.

My smn magic is 4lvls from cap i have been sought out for tips how to play. Stop living in the state of grandeur that i don't know this job and you do when you can't even admit there is limitations to it. If SE would finally give our abilities the boost they need then we can talk but coming for a bst who gets new pets every month you can't talk.

Sub SCH, use Addendum: Black and gear yourself halfway right and your bind won't miss.Then you're free to ram pointy objects into the gooch of your enemy. While my job does get new pets on a semi-regular basis, most of them have zero utility, nearly all of the Ready moves are the same thing (physical TP moves) with different names. There are obvious exceptions like Fantod and Harden Shell, but those are very few. Most of our variety comes in the form of getting ourselves killed in new and interesting ways, PVP content is the same. I've lost as many fights as I've won, and often it comes down to who has better timing and/or dancing in and out of WS range.

I'm not sure why you're trying to use the "play another game" argument for this, it's not like you're getting your arm twisted to try it out, but why be negative about it before even giving it a chance? I can tell from what you posted about the "what if..." scenario involving bind that you don't do this sort of thing on a regular basis, so why bash others for wanting to enjoy a piece of content that you won't use yourself? You don't hate fun, do you?

[Secondplanet]

Sub SCH, use Addendum: Black and gear yourself halfway right and your bind won't miss.Then you're free to ram pointy objects into the gooch of your enemy. While my job does get new pets on a semi-regular basis, most of them have zero utility, nearly all of the Ready moves are the same thing (physical TP moves) with different names. There are obvious exceptions like Fantod and Harden Shell, but those are very few. Most of our variety comes in the form of getting ourselves killed in new and interesting ways, PVP content is the same. I've lost as many fights as I've won, and often it comes down to who has better timing and/or dancing in and out of WS range.

I'm not sure why you're trying to use the "play another game" argument for this, it's not like you're getting your arm twisted to try it out, but why be negative about it before even giving it a chance? I can tell from what you posted about the "what if..." scenario involving bind that you don't do this sort of thing on a regular basis, so why bash others for wanting to enjoy a piece of content that you won't use yourself? You don't hate fun, do you?

But what your are saying is hypocritical, from my original post you have done nothing but try to belittle me for my own personal opinion on this matter. I don't care in the slightest for PVP, i've played many games with the feature and it and i never understood the fun behind it. That was the main reason i join this game, no PVP except for sanctioned spots and i liked that, no one to harass me into fighting them right there and then cause i outclamed them or stepped on there foot.

Personally i don't know sch so well and using it as a sub with summoner i'm not sure how well any enfeebling magic would work.

I have fun in this game working with others to achieve a goal which sometimes players forget about, I just love at times you can be shouting for some old content and people who have already done it join just to help. To me that is fun.

I also said in previous posts that i think they should open the stadium in WG and allow people to go at it. Hell even have spectator seats so we can throw flowers and gil at them at the end. Hell even randomly throw in a joker and have some NPC contender jump in.

[Liir]

Sub SCH, use Addendum: Black and gear yourself halfway right and your bind won't miss.

The only native enfeebling spells SCH has are Sleep, Sleep II, and Dispel. And only Sleep and Dispel are available from SCH as a support job.

[Caketime]

If you feel I've insulted you and have done nothing but belittle you, then that's your problem.

Also, I'm terribly sorry for being inaccurate about Bind, I am such a bad kitty. I should have suggested subbing BitterMage rather than Scholar.

[Demon6324236]

Well really /BLM isn't to great as SMN being that your Enfeebling Magic skill would be low, /SCH has the advantage of giving you high level skills. Either way the point was that your idea on what to do was actually inaccurate, and unable to be used or worthwhile as a SMN. I wont say SMN is worthless in PvP though, thats still not entirely true.

I don't PvP much myself but I have done it a few times for fun. I would think a SMN/RDM with some Enhancing gear, casting Phalanx at the start, then using a good amount of PDT gear would make themselves fairly well defended. After that the SMN would still have their Avatar to fight, and so long as Phalanx isn't Dispelled, it should be a good defense for the SMN. Since I have never played a Pet job in PvP I'm not sure how it works in relation to other jobs, but it may even be possible to change back to enhancing magic so you can recast Phalanx as needed, so long as the Avatar is not effected by the penalty.

There are truly a number of ways to fight an enemy in PvP, and I have no doubt that a SMN, or any other job, can be a powerful opponent given the right plan of attack, gear, and skill.

[Caketime]

Well really /BLM isn't to great as SMN being that your Enfeebling Magic skill would be low, /SCH has the advantage of giving you high level skills. Either way the point was that your idea on what to do was actually inaccurate, and unable to be used or worthwhile as a SMN. I wont say SMN is worthless in PvP though, thats still not entirely true.

I was inaccurate on the use of a single spell, which is easily replaced by one of several other spells that achieve the same effect of rooting an opponent in place, which is standard mage pvp strategy in any game. Like I said, I'm a bad kitty, but that doesn't make my entire post inaccurate. I then suggested BitterMage (Red hats yo), as it's probably a better sub anyway. Phalanx, Gravity, Bind etc. is more than enough to shut down any melee and allow the Summoner to get to work with BPs.

You could also try screwing around with the stratagem that widens the effect of single target black magic to hit multiple foes, those are always fun to use on unsuspecting groups of tightly clustered mouth breathers.

[Demon6324236]

Not to mention it removed the potential problem of Blink or Shadows, as it becomes AoE and wipes them. Also never heard RDM refered to as something as stupid as "Bittermage" so I figured you meant BLM. In either case, /Anything will still have a much lower chance to stick due to the problems you would have with lacking skill level, which I would think would make a difference.

[airsparrowhawk]

By the way, kingfury, you should start making comics out of your illustrations, I know I'd read it. ^^

[kingfury]

By the way, kingfury, you should start making comics out of your illustrations, I know I'd read it. ^^
--------------------------
Sounds cool :) I'll see if I can add something like that on the gallery site /

[Caketime]

Not to mention it removed the potential problem of Blink or Shadows, as it becomes AoE and wipes them. Also never heard RDM refered to as something as stupid as "Bittermage" so I figured you meant BLM. In either case, /Anything will still have a much lower chance to stick due to the problems you would have with lacking skill level, which I would think would make a difference.

You would think it would make a difference, but all the times I've tried it there's been no problem. I could be wrong, but in my experience with it I've only ever seen enfeebles get blocked by shadows, never resisted. I have no idea if I and my opponents were just getting lucky though.

[Demon6324236]

Well I know its possible to resist, I have fought someone with alot of resist gear on and my Sleep/Break never landed while I was on RDM with capped skills, so its possible to resist. Not sure how much skill would effect it in PvP without resist gear though, sounds like skill wouldn't make to big of an impact so /RDM may work, but not sure.

[RagingAvatar]

Dearest KingFury,

Please would you make me a sig.
My request is on page 1 :)
Please make my posts look more awesome in future :)

Thanks.

Dhylan

[Zheta]

+1 For artwork alone!

[Aarahs]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I think what you're waiting for is the 'play as a monster' event they're working on.

Any chance a community rep could give us an update on that?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Needs more mithra nut shot.

[Urteil]

Good ideas.

The less they molest character stats inside specific battle systems the better.

You make great art, but many of your recommendations, such as the 5 second max to enfeebles is very misguided.

Keep all the neat match-making/whatever, but keep specific equipment that works only in certain areas/modes (lol legion gear is an example) as far away from the game as possible, and leave the character stats alone.

You enter with what your armor/gear gives you and that's it.
Keep the current enhanced resistance enfeebling/diminishing returns.


Again neat concept art, your ideas however are not very good.