Paladin - Helping to return it to top tank

[LeaderofAtlantis]

I have a few ideas for Job Traits and Abilities, but first, my brother made a suggestion that made a bit of sense and since we share an account, I'll post it as well. Paladin should get a job trait that allows for it's enmity to either cap higher or decay at a reduced rate so that it isn't so easy for other jobs to leap frog over it when none of its hate grabbing abilities are ready for reuse.

Now, as for my ideas...

(JA) Intercession - Cleanses an ally of enmity. Duration: Instant Recast: 5 minutes

(JA) Kenosis - Takes remaining MP and applies it to a damage reduction shield. (Example: 50% of max MP remaining turns into a -25% damage reduction shield.) Duration: 1 Minute Recast: 5 Minutes

(JT) Stewardship - Defense is enhanced in proportion to enmity.

Ok this one takes a little bit of explaining. Libra gives us percentages of enmity levels. SO, if a Paladin is at 100% enmity, it would get a 10% Defense bonus. If the cap for Paladin were increased to say, 150%, it would be 15%.

(JT) Epiphany - Occasionally reduces damage of special attacks or magic previously used by the current battle target. Chance of activating: 5%

With this trait, monsters who like to use the same attack 3 times in a row would no longer necessarily destroy a Paladin's HP with it (Off the top of my head, like Despot with Panzerfaust).

Been a bit bored late nights after work (I work the graveyard shift and aside from drinking, playing games is all there is at 4am in my town), so came up with some ideas for various jobs. Paladin is a job I played because my friends liked me as a tank on THF/WAR (which does work with a good BRD and Mambo x2 on things) and thought I'd be good as a Paladin. Started it up thinking I'd get bored with it and I have found that while it still isn't my favorite job, I do enjoy the challenge of keeping monsters away from attacking others.

[Greatguardian]

It's 6:30 am and I'm about to head to bed so I can't fully respond to everything on here. I just thought I'd mention that Libra doesn't work the way you seem to think it works. Enmity values are measure in units from 0-20,000. When Libra is used, it looks at every party member and determines who has the most Enmity on the target monster. That person's Enmity level, whether it is 10 or 10,000, is designated 100%. Then everyone else's Enmity values are determined based on their relationship to that 100% value.

E.g.: In a party of 4, you have Player A with 10,000 Enmity, B with 5,000 Enmity, C with 6,000 Enmity, and D with 3,000 Enmity. Libra would check and see that Player A has the most Enmity at 10,000, and marks that as 100%. It would then report player B as having 50% Enmity, player C as having 60% Enmity, and D as having 30% Enmity.

Alternatively, in a party of 4, you have Player A with 20,000 Enmity, B with 10,000 Enmity, C with 12,000 Enmity, and D with 3,000 Enmity. Libra would check and see that Player A has the most Enmity at 20,000, and marks that as 100%. It would then report player B as having 50% Enmity, player C as having 60% Enmity, and D as having 30% Enmity.

In these two cases, the player's Enmity levels are drastically different, but Libra would report the same thing both times.

With that said, I really don't think PLD needs any sort of Defensive or Enmity-related fix. They have plenty of tools for hate, they have plenty of tools for damage mitigation. The only reasons they don't stand up to Mnks and Nins are 1) They don't have enough Red/Blue/Grellow procs on their own to be a valuable unit in Abyssea, and 2) They don't deal as much damage as Mnk or Nin. It's mainly the procs though. My buddy's Almace PLD isn't much weaker than a Blade: Hi Nin, it's just using up space when we need procs more than additional damage/tanking/whatever.

[LeaderofAtlantis]

Huh, I was only going by what I had read and I hadn't actually seen Libra used... guess I should have done slightly more research, so thank you for your clarification.

On your 2nd point, 90% or more of the game is not Abyssea related and I hope they start to move away from easy mode Final Fantasy XI a bit for the final 9 levels. The damage reduction ideas were more for when a WHM might be low on MP and a PLD needs to survive a bit longer while they recover some. As a Galka, my MP pool won't keep me alive with cures alone in some cases, especially if an enemy uses a devastating attack like say, 10,000 Needles. But removing my MP to straight reduce damage would keep me alive a bit longer.

As for enmity, have you ever tried to hold hate against fully hastened Monk? It can be done, but it isn't easy without the assistance of others sometimes. With the damage output of some jobs now, especially with the Empyrean Weaponskills, it doesn't take much effort for other jobs to meet Paladins at the top of the damage ladder.

The idea of a Paladin is supposed to be that it takes less damage and the trade off for that is that they deal less as well.

[Greatguardian]

I have, because I am a Verethragna Mnk as well. A good friend of mine is an Almace PLD, and any time we both end up on the same mob we both have capped hate after a single WS. My hate isn't any higher than his, and vice versa. The monster just turns towards whoever acted on it most recently.

I mean, he could try to absorb my Enmity or something of the sort, but I would just cap it again within 10 seconds. Likewise, I can close an Empyrean Light SC off of him for 14k damage and the mob will still look over at him when he swings his sword because his hate is capped too.

Honestly, my biggest pet peev with PLD at the moment is its inability to wear Bullwhip OR Twilight belt. I believe it's the only melee in the game that can't wear either one (WHM BLM SMN SCH being the other 4 total jobs who can't). It makes capping Haste a pain in the butt without sacrificing other stats.

Every other job in the game has had to break out from its original, 2002 role and adapt themselves to the changing environment of the game. For some reason, many PLDs just don't want to do this and only make PDT/VIT swords and other such nonsense. I will never understand that. It's not a bad job, it's just second or third tier when you have options.

[Aeonk]

I have, because I am a Verethragna Mnk as well. A good friend of mine is an Almace PLD, and any time we both end up on the same mob we both have capped hate after a single WS. My hate isn't any higher than his, and vice versa. The monster just turns towards whoever acted on it most recently.

I mean, he could try to absorb my Enmity or something of the sort, but I would just cap it again within 10 seconds. Likewise, I can close an Empyrean Light SC off of him for 14k damage and the mob will still look over at him when he swings his sword because his hate is capped too.

Honestly, my biggest pet peev with PLD at the moment is its inability to wear Bullwhip OR Twilight belt. I believe it's the only melee in the game that can't wear either one (WHM BLM SMN SCH being the other 4 total jobs who can't). It makes capping Haste a pain in the butt without sacrificing other stats.

Every other job in the game has had to break out from its original, 2002 role and adapt themselves to the changing environment of the game. For some reason, many PLDs just don't want to do this and only make PDT/VIT swords and other such nonsense. I will never understand that. It's not a bad job, it's just second or third tier when you have options.
Finally... someone who gets it. And kudo's to your almace PLD friend.

[LeaderofAtlantis]

I think trying to turn PLD into just another melee is redundant though. There already is MNK, DRG, SAM, WAR, and DRK. Then you can toss a BLU and RNG in even if you just want to Zerg things (not that a RNG will add a ton with faster DD's going at it).

My main point is that a PLD should be able to hold hate way more steadily than they do. That should be the point of the job is to take the damage so others don't have to. VIT should also be fixed to have a much stronger relationship to damage reduction just like STR affects damage dealing abilities.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Complainer PLDs complaining.
It's still the toughest tank on Siren.

[Anela]

I may not have played PLD as extensively as many of those posting in this portion of the Forum but here's my 2 cents.
Pre cap raise, (75 was lvl cap) I took pride in being able to hold the hate, even without all the best PLD gear, in just about every party I tanked. I felt sorry for the occasional RNG or SAM that stole it from me as they usually died quickly.

I was as excited as the rest to see the cap lifted. *Phalanx FTW!!* I eagerly looked forward to the new JAs, Skills, etc. Then, as the effect of the various changes to the other jobs added up, it became harder and harder to keep the hate in parties. It got to the point where I have basically given up on trying to be a traditional tank.

Now, I am sure that part of it is due to job experience. (As I said, I am sure many posting here have much more experience at the job than I.) But I also feel that the job DOES need "help". I don't have any viable suggestions to make, but what I see here so far seem to be on the right track. I look forward to what may come of this.

[LeaderofAtlantis]

2 changes I'd like to see made to Cover:

1) Use the programming that guides the "Draw-In" ability of many monsters in the game to cause us to warp right in front of someone we want to cover.

2) Make it so that during this time, the person we are covering has any enmity being produced by their actions, count towards us instead of them... or at the very least, a percentage of that enmity.

[Greatguardian]

PLD still has plenty of things which distinguish it from "Every other melee", just as each of those jobs have distinguishing characteristics of their own. The mechanics may be similar, but no one can say that DRG and MNK are the same job; they're not.

Giving players access to short-range teleportation mechanics is beyond broken, I highly doubt that will ever be considered by the Devs. You can start tacking on whatever arbitrary restrictions you want onto it but someone, somewhere will find ways to abuse it and completely ransack Mob AI.

Paladin doesn't need to be "The one and only meat shield" to be useful. In fact, it's because so many players refuse to let go of that ancient ideology that the PLD job is looked down on by everyone these days. This isn't something Abyssea caused either. As players got better at the game, people realized that it really isn't that hard for any melee to tank any monster. DDs were out buying PDT and MDT sets, Whms were becoming more efficient, Bards and Corsairs were becoming more common in Endgame shells as people leveled more jobs.

The fact of the matter is, even a COR could tank things like Khimaira back at the 75 cap. PLD was never a special snowflake in that regard, and it doesn't need to be. It's a top-class sword user with EX weaponskill access, extreme defensive and restorative buffs, and a moderately large spread of weapon access. I'm not advocating the equally ass-backwards "PLD with Greatsword" campaign, because that does significantly less damage than dual swords and doesn't do anything at all to solve Pld's problems. But I think people need to realize that the problem is NOT with the Paladin job, but with Paladins who refuse to bring the job into 2011.

I wouldn't want to invite Warriors to my party either if 90% of the community refused to use anything but dual Axes and made thread after thread on the forums asking for Axe buffs instead of using a Great Axe.

[Dale]

2 changes I'd like to see made to Cover:

1) Use the programming that guides the "Draw-In" ability of many monsters in the game to cause us to warp right in front of someone we want to cover.

.

I'd love to see them do this to cover. I know i'd use it a lot more if I did. As its currently used now, it's just way too much of a hassle and completely dependent on how the person you are trying to cover behaves.

[LeaderofAtlantis]

I think if they allow us to jump to be in front of the person we want to cover, they'd have to change cover to be "when engaged" only. This way it couldn't necessarily be used abusively to move through or across terrain.

I was thinking about that because if you've played the original FFIV game or even a couple others, when "Cover" is used, the person jumps in front to take the hit for the other person.

[Zagen]

Now, as for my ideas...

(JA) Intercession - Cleanses an ally of enmity. Duration: Instant Recast: 5 minutes

Hey SCH don't worry I got your back you can be the single target nuke king again screw BLM since I got your Enmity reset covered...


(JA) Kenosis - Takes remaining MP and applies it to a damage reduction shield. (Example: 50% of max MP remaining turns into a -25% damage reduction shield.) Duration: 1 Minute Recast: 5 Minutes

So remove all of a PLD's MP one of the things that helps it tank for a minor damage reduction during shield blocks only?


(JT) Stewardship - Defense is enhanced in proportion to enmity.

Ok this one takes a little bit of explaining. Libra gives us percentages of enmity levels. SO, if a Paladin is at 100% enmity, it would get a 10% Defense bonus. If the cap for Paladin were increased to say, 150%, it would be 15%.

You do realize the reason Libra is considered effectively useless is because it shows Enmity levels based on the current state not overall? In other words if you provoke and no one else does anything you will have 100% Enmity even though you are no where near the cap.


(JT) Epiphany - Occasionally reduces damage of special attacks or magic previously used by the current battle target. Chance of activating: 5%

With this trait, monsters who like to use the same attack 3 times in a row would no longer necessarily destroy a Paladin's HP with it (Off the top of my head, like Despot with Panzerfaust).

This is actually really cool though I think it should be something like after taking a TP move/spell if its reused again within say 30sec to 1 min the damage it reduced by say 50%. Doesn't make it completely broken but it does become situationally nice, i.e. Chainspell NMs or monsters that can use a TP move repeatedly due to strong regain.

Though honestly none of these would really bring PLD back into the tanking light.

[Arcon]

[..] 1) They don't have enough Red/Blue/Grellow procs on their own to be a valuable unit in Abyssea [..]

Just wanted to point out that PLD natively has more red and blue procs than both MNK and NIN (and any other job except for WAR for that matter), only beaten in red procs by NIN/WAR, and subbing NIN it has even more grellow procs than both.

[Sonshou]

Am I too naive to assume that, too everyone's perception, a tank should only tank one foe during battle? I think to add uniqueness to Paladin, this job should made capable of shielding party members from multiple enemies during battle. While Monk and Ninja are better DD tank, they still suffer a lot when taking on multiple enemies. While Paladin boost defence and damage reduction, and can have more armor choice compare to Monk and other evasion tank.

Allow Paladins to block attacks with shield from all directions. Grants Paladin ability or spell to draw attension of monster in radius. Let Paladin to become Protector of the party from multiple foes. This would encourage people to invite a paladin to party when venture into those danger zones. We are advanturers after all, not monster hunters.

[Greatguardian]

Just wanted to point out that PLD natively has more red and blue procs than both MNK and NIN (and any other job except for WAR for that matter), only beaten in red procs by NIN/WAR, and subbing NIN it has even more grellow procs than both.

You can't look at things in a vacuum.

NIN + PLD = Missing Shadow of Death.

WAR + PLD = Missing Tachi: Koki, Tachi: Jinpu, Blade: Ei

It doesn't matter how many Procs PLD has if you're requiring 3 people to complete your set.

The same can be said for grellow:

PLD/NIN + BLM/BRD + BLU = Missing Banishga 2

WHM + BLM/BRD + BLU/NIN is the only complete 3-man Grellow team. Even if you have a PLD there, you would need a WHM anyways so you are not saving any space at all. PLD Red and PLD Grellow are redundant.

Edit: @Above, Just an fyi, MNK thrives on multiple foes. Before I finished my Staff skill grind for Cataclysm, I was easily able to tank 15+ Abyssea mobs at a time on MNK by pulling them into a niche (forcing them to line up) and countering them all to death.

[LeaderofAtlantis]

Hey SCH don't worry I got your back you can be the single target nuke king again screw BLM since I got your Enmity reset covered...

SCH suppresses it over a time. I'm talking about a 1 shot removal of a party members hate. Kind of a divine intervention thing due to an "oh crap!" situation happening. Could increase the recast to 10 minutes so as not to completely step on SCH's toes.


So remove all of a PLD's MP one of the things that helps it tank for a minor damage reduction during shield blocks only?

Not for blocking only. I say shield as a general term. Basically, it's a stronger Phalanx. I tend to get interrupted faster than I can heal myself efficiently if I'm tanking, If I can outright mitigate part of the damage for a time, it would be better. Maybe it could change to taking half of your current MP instead to form the shield and a 1:1 ratio (so if you have 50% MP left, it takes 25% which creates a 25% damage mitigation shield).


You do realize the reason Libra is considered effectively useless is because it shows Enmity levels based on the current state not overall? In other words if you provoke and no one else does anything you will have 100% Enmity even though you are no where near the cap.

I'm aware of it now as someone pointed it out to me earlier in the thread. So it would work a bit differently than I describe, but I still feel that the better you're holding hate, a trait that rewards you for that might be nice.



This is actually really cool though I think it should be something like after taking a TP move/spell if its reused again within say 30sec to 1 min the damage it reduced by say 50%. Doesn't make it completely broken but it does become situationally nice, i.e. Chainspell NMs or monsters that can use a TP move repeatedly due to strong regain.

Though honestly none of these would really bring PLD back into the tanking light.

I have Epiphany as a trait. There could be levels of it (perhaps we gain it at Lv30 with another level coming every 20 levels - 50, 70, 90). So if it triggers (and Suzaku chainspelling Fire IV, Firaga III, etc. would be considered the same magic damage so it could trigger then), there you go.

[Zagen]

SCH suppresses it over a time. I'm talking about a 1 shot removal of a party members hate. Kind of a divine intervention thing due to an "oh crap!" situation happening. Could increase the recast to 10 minutes so as not to completely step on SCH's toes.
No what I meant is Enmity Dose is what makes BLM a better single nuker than SCH currently. BLM does 10k damage and grabs hate then does Enmity Dose so they can do another 10k. SCH does say 15k(with lower enmity generated effect on) and PLD uses Intercession on the SCH and the SCH can do another 15k beating the BLM's damage. Essentially this JA makes Enmity Dose pointless with a PLD in the group.


Not for blocking only. I say shield as a general term. Basically, it's a stronger Phalanx. I tend to get interrupted faster than I can heal myself efficiently if I'm tanking, If I can outright mitigate part of the damage for a time, it would be better. Maybe it could change to taking half of your current MP instead to form the shield and a 1:1 ratio (so if you have 50% MP left, it takes 25% which creates a 25% damage mitigation shield).
Ah I see what you meant now, though your reason for wanting it is flawed IMO, if I'm tanking there is usually a RDM who will land Slow2 giving me plenty of time to cure myself. Even if the mob is immune to Slow it usually has an attack pattern that still allows for curing. Also not curing means you're bleeding hate without recouping it even at a lower rate its still being bled without recouping it besides melee swings.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

As players got better at the game, people realized that it really isn't that hard for any melee to tank any monster.

I disagree. It's not that players got better at the game, it's that player *characters* got stronger relative to monsters. Merits, more and better gear, and now atmas have reduced monsters to pathetic levels of powerlessness by comparison. The balance of the game has been going out of whack since ToAU -- not just between one job and another, but between players and mobs. No mob since ToAU, except *maybe* PW, has been as challenging as the hard CoP and earlier mobs.

It's one thing for exp to get faster or easier, but when NM fights start doing the same, there is not much left of the game other than low drop rates and farming another pop set/200k cruor.

It's all been downhill since the first colibri showed up.

[Nepharite]

WAR + PLD = Missing Tachi: Koki, Tachi: Jinpu, Blade: Ei


just nitpicking here, but war/sam can do jinpu with gear/merits using the event GK

[Nepharite]

I disagree. It's not that players got better at the game, it's that player *characters* got stronger relative to monsters. Merits, more and better gear, and now atmas have reduced monsters to pathetic levels of powerlessness by comparison. The balance of the game has been going out of whack since ToAU -- not just between one job and another, but between players and mobs. No mob since ToAU, except *maybe* PW, has been as challenging as the hard CoP and earlier mobs.

It's one thing for exp to get faster or easier, but when NM fights start doing the same, there is not much left of the game other than low drop rates and farming another pop set/200k cruor.

It's all been downhill since the first colibri showed up.

Take us back to pre abyssea and with what we know now. PLD tanking would not have been effective as other jobs tanking.
Until the way enmity is gained/lost pld tanking will not be more effective.

[Neisan_Quetz]

DD tanks were already being used at 75 over Paladin, it wasn't just level cap being raised that resulted in Paladin becoming redundant.

[Sekundes]

Proliferation of vital information and practical strategies made it more common for alternate job tanks to take the stage, but it has existed for a very long time.

[LeaderofAtlantis]

No what I meant is Enmity Dose is what makes BLM a better single nuker than SCH currently. BLM does 10k damage and grabs hate then does Enmity Dose so they can do another 10k. SCH does say 15k(with lower enmity generated effect on) and PLD uses Intercession on the SCH and the SCH can do another 15k beating the BLM's damage. Essentially this JA makes Enmity Dose pointless with a PLD in the group.

Well it would be more there just in case or situational. I mean, the BLM isn't the only 1 capable of pulling crazy hate.


Ah I see what you meant now, though your reason for wanting it is flawed IMO, if I'm tanking there is usually a RDM who will land Slow2 giving me plenty of time to cure myself. Even if the mob is immune to Slow it usually has an attack pattern that still allows for curing. Also not curing means you're bleeding hate without recouping it even at a lower rate its still being bled without recouping it besides melee swings.

Then they could just make it so with the shield up, Enmity doesn't decrease. I'm aware of possible timing and all, but I've been in enough situations where I get screwed by starting a cast and then nailed with a stun TP move or just a TP move that interrupts. Also, if we're taking reduced damage, we shouldn't be needing much in the way of cures from others.