[dev1135] New Thief 2 hour ability

[FrankReynolds]

I just wanted to create a thread to discuss this ability specifically. It sounds like it will be terrible and I'm hoping that by getting the suggestions rolling, we ca get them to fix it before it goes live and they leave it alone for a year before re-evaluating.

As I have read it, it appears to be a Trick Attack +1.

I can't imagine how this is going to do enough damage to warrant a timer any longer than say 10 minutes. I'm also having a major issue with the whole enmity thing. The optimist in me believes that they have major plans to rework the enmity system at some point, but I would rather they give us some other form of ability now and save the enmity stuff for when it's actually useful again / if ever.

I think it's probably best to just write off the enmity portion of the ability and not discuss it for now, seeing as there will almost never be a situation where it will be any more useful that trick attack in that regard.

How much damage would this move have to do to be a decent 2 hour ability? And what would be a better alternative to just one stupid high damage spike?

[Badieh]

I'm thinking this move is going to have the same damage output like Eagle Eye but the Thf will have a chance to divert the enmity to someone else.

[Badieh]

I'm also thinking it will have some way cool animation. (Hopefully similar to something like the Nin emote.)

[Zirael]

Aside from this being Eagle Eye Shot (read: useless), my next gripe with this ability is - there is a high chance it will be usable only in party. What about when you are solo? What about when you duo something hard with a mage? Transferring enmity it's all good, unless there is no one to transfer it to, or unless the person with hate planted on them gets murdered in 5 seconds.
Was it really that hard to think up an ability that for 3 minutes makes all triple attacks do triple damage, gives 5TP TP regain, boosts your Dual Wield rating (like changing our delay reduction from -25% to -50%) AND on top of that causes all Trick Attacks to transfer full enmity?

Or, something I proposed in the other thread, for 60 seconds make all hits become Sneak Attack/Trick Attack, where positional conditions are met, or when Bully was used AND allow Trick Attack to transfer full enmity.

Or an ability that gives target a 60-second Amnesia. Etc, etc...

If the Development Team couldn't come up with anything better than a Trick Attack for new Thief ability, they could have asked those playing the job passionately for some ideas.

Why other jobs have things like Mighty Strikes, Hundred Fists, Embrava. Meikyo Shisui, new SMN ability, new RNG ability, new DRK ability, etc.and Thief gets renamed Trick Attack...?

[Mathieu]

Meh, it's not great, but since Perfect Dodge is useless outside a few specific situations, at least it does give something to potentially use the two hour timer on. It isn't an emergency button like some of the other two hours are, but that's hardly a unique situation.


Aside from this being Eagle Eye Shot (read: useless), my next gripe with this ability is - there is a high chance it will be usable only in party. What about when you are solo? What about when you duo something hard with a mage? Transferring enmity it's all good, unless there is no one to transfer it to, or unless the person with hate planted on them gets murdered in 5 seconds.

Which would be a more valid point if it was replacing Perfect Dodge. It isn't. That's like saying Perfect Dodge is useless because it doesn't do anything when you aren't being attacked.

[Zirael]

Which would be a more valid point if it was replacing Perfect Dodge. It isn't. That's like saying Perfect Dodge is useless because it doesn't do anything when you aren't being attacked.
Mind reminding me which other 2-hour works ONLY if you are in a party AND have someone standing right in front of you?
The closest one would be Spirit Surge + Super Jump, but that offers a myriad of other benefits to the user.
It might sound wrong to you, but when getting a new offensive 2-hour, I'd like for it to do SOMETHING USEFUL even without my pocket PLD around.
I imagine devs wanted this to give THF more utility in party/zerg scenarios, but even there it will fail miserably short. If you want to see an useful party/alliance 2-hour, check out Perfect Defence, Embrava, Chainspell, Wild Card, Soul Voice, Chainspell-Shock_Squall, etc.

[Babekeke]

The description doesn't say that you need to be in a party, just that if there is someone between you and the mob, all enmity will be transferred (doesn't say if it's all accumulated enmity, or if it's just for that hit).

I'm hoping that this is a non-crit attack that stacks with both SA, TA and WS. I'm hoping.

So, as a non-crit hit, I'd like to see it do total weapon damage (main + sub)*10, so generally about 900 damage (before Pdif).

So, now when you add bully and sneak attack to it, you add 150~ (your dex) to the damage of your main-hand for ~2400 damage for the 2 hour (before Pdif - and remember it's now a crit, so add 1.0).

Add in a weaponskill and the numbers are going to start piling up.

And that's just if you use it solo.

It obviously has added benefits of using in a pt though, so add in Trick attack to the equasion, for probably another ~100 damage to main weapon (assuming if you got 150 dex you won't get as much agi due to rings/earrings/merits etc). You're now looking at 3400 damage (before Pdif inc crit).

Now stack it with a WS.

Yes, that's right. Still worse than Mighty Strikes, Hundred Fists or Meikyo Shisui. But much better than Perfect Dodge.

Edit: I was kind of hoping that someone who had tried this on the test server would put us out of our misery.

[Zirael]

Yes, that's right. Still worse than Mighty Strikes, Hundred Fists or Meikyo Shisui. But much better than Perfect Dodge.

Edit: I was kind of hoping that someone who had tried this on the test server would put us out of our misery.
Wohooo!

I'ts not up on Test Server, for now we can speculatorycraft how bad it could possibly be. I admit, my expectations might sound too grave.

[Babekeke]

Still no word on the new 2 hour yet, which I imagine means they put the idea forward for testing by SE staff, and the testers turned around and said "This is trick Attack!"

And the fight goes on...

[FrankReynolds]

Still no word on the new 2 hour yet, which I imagine means they put the idea forward for testing by SE staff, and the testers turned around and said "This is trick Attack!"

And the fight goes on...

Let's put it this way. If it doesn't do more damage than a SAM soloing light, then it should be on a 5 minute timer.

I would love for this ability to do like 4-5k damage and share a timer with trick attack, but have a 5 min recast instead of 1 minute.

For a 2 hour, it's just plain ridiculous.

I would like to see something like %100 forced crits with DEX mod for 60 seconds, sort of a mighty strikes / sneak attack hybrid, or something like that.

Or maybe make it so that it does about double what trick attack does, but with added effect: all enmity gain for party members is directed to the person that you used it on for like 60 seconds. Thus allowing DDs to go all out hate free. That would allow you to Zerg stuff, and still have a tank, by placing everyone's enmity on the tank. Bring back the PAL super turtle!

[Calatilla]

Give us SCH`s proposed new 2hr and give them something that's in their job description.

Unless this does massive damage without needing to add a ws to it, I can't see it warranting a 2hr recast.

[Babekeke]

Thief
Name: 06_シーフ.jpg Views: 305 Size: 22.6 KB

Vision
Stealthy pickpockets that duck and weave to land sneak attacks while keeping party enmity under control from the shadows.

We wish to see thieves further develop the cunning they are so aptly known for by providing them with even more means of manipulating enmity and continuing to fatten the party's coffers.

Example Adjustments
Adding a new ability that complements Sneak Attack and Trick Attack.
Raising the chances of successfully executing Steal and Despoil commensurate with Treasure Hunter.
Adding a new ability that intimidates an enemy in proportion to the number of members in the party.

Looking at this, I'd like to think that it will stack with SA/TA, and perhaps even WS (depends if it targets yourself or the mob).

What might be nice actually is if it stacked with ele ws too. Would make it quite worthwhile to smash out a big (10k big) Aolean Edge on a mob very resistant to phys damage.

[FrankReynolds]

Looking at this, I'd like to think that it will stack with SA/TA, and perhaps even WS (depends if it targets yourself or the mob).

What might be nice actually is if it stacked with ele ws too. Would make it quite worthwhile to smash out a big (10k big) Aolean Edge on a mob very resistant to phys damage.

Hopefully it doesn't stack with anything.

People tend to move as soon as they see you lining up behind them and they love to spin the mob when you are about to pop Sneak Attack. I want a job ability that doesn't require 2 other people lining up for me to be good. The directional thing is bad enough already and should be removed. You should be able to select the player to use it on regardless of position in relation to you or the mob. You just know that every mob in the game is going to perform a knock back move as soon as you pop this and reduce your damage to a regular crit.

[Babekeke]

Hopefully it doesn't stack with anything.

People tend to move as soon as they see you lining up behind them and they love to spin the mob when you are about to pop Sneak Attack. I want a job ability that doesn't require 2 other people lining up for me to be good. The directional thing is bad enough already and should be removed. You should be able to select the player to use it on regardless of position in relation to you or the mob. You just know that every mob in the game is going to perform a knock back move as soon as you pop this and reduce your damage to a regular crit.

You clearly misunderstand.

Being able to stack with SA and/or TA won't make this ability any worse, providing that the 2 hour itself does a large amount of damage that isn't affected by having another person between you and the mob (will just transfer hate if you have someone between you). Being able to stack it with SA/TA/WS just means being able to make the massive damage a force crit, and then add dex/agi.

Since this ability is only usable every 2 hours, to use it without bully if it stacks with SA, would be insane. And you can always try letting the ppl in your pt know that you're about to do this so they don't move when you TA them. If this does stack with SA/TA/WS, it's best use is as a Tier 3 SC closer for a massive ws a massive SC, so it requires co-ordination with your pt anyway.

[FrankReynolds]

You clearly misunderstand.

Being able to stack with SA and/or TA won't make this ability any worse, providing that the 2 hour itself does a large amount of damage that isn't affected by having another person between you and the mob (will just transfer hate if you have someone between you). Being able to stack it with SA/TA/WS just means being able to make the massive damage a force crit, and then add dex/agi.

Since this ability is only usable every 2 hours, to use it without bully if it stacks with SA, would be insane. And you can always try letting the ppl in your pt know that you're about to do this so they don't move when you TA them. If this does stack with SA/TA/WS, it's best use is as a Tier 3 SC closer for a massive ws a massive SC, so it requires co-ordination with your pt anyway.

I know what you were thinking and it made perfect sense. That's why I don't want it to stack. These are crazy people we're dealing with here and they hate thieves. I don't want to hear the insane BS that they always pull this time around like:

"Hey guys, because this ability can be stacked with trick attack and sneak attack, we think that it would be overpowered if it did more than 100 damage. We considered making it do a large amount of damage on it's own, but then we would have had to make it share a timer with trick attack, so you wouldn't be able to use that for 2 hours either. Please continue to leave feedback about this awesome ability so that we can gauge how sad we have made you and laugh appropriately."

[Karbuncle]

If it doesn't stack with SA and TA it will be useless.

If it does stack with SA and TA it will be useless because SE will overcompensate by nerfing it to be little more than an additional SA/TA (AkA Probably a SA with a STR mod instead of DEX or AGI).

Or maybe it'll just be a really terrible EES Type ability.

I'm not surprised its the only 2hour not on the Servers yet, The rage of its terribleness will be felt stronger than all the BST's combined!

I hope its good though :( Benefit of the doubt.

[Nebo]

I have compiled most of the info we know about Bamboozle of on alla

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=245&mid=134376386329258067#1

For the most part, it seems pretty crap...and I assume that is why it never made it to the test server.

Seeing as now they are reconsidering all the new SP abilities I can only hope that the new producer will make this something worth while.

[Delvish]

Checked out the video. Looks to be an activated boost instead of a forced attack similar to jump, effectively making a new BASATA/SABATA/SATABA - WS combo depending on how you all feel it should be said. More time for someone to get out of the way of impending doom that is about to befall them. Personally I think it could work, but would HAVE to be AT LEAST 50% damage boost to be worthwhile and even then we need 2 other people to pull it off, 1 minimum if you are nixing SA.

[Babekeke]

Checked out the video. Looks to be an activated boost instead of a forced attack similar to jump, effectively making a new BASATA/SABATA/SATABA - WS combo depending on how you all feel it should be said. More time for someone to get out of the way of impending doom that is about to befall them. Personally I think it could work, but would HAVE to be AT LEAST 50% damage boost to be worthwhile and even then we need 2 other people to pull it off, 1 minimum if you are nixing SA.

just need a ja with the initials GE to stick at the end ^^

[FrankReynolds]

Checked out the video. Looks to be an activated boost instead of a forced attack similar to jump, effectively making a new BASATA/SABATA/SATABA - WS combo depending on how you all feel it should be said. More time for someone to get out of the way of impending doom that is about to befall them. Personally I think it could work, but would HAVE to be AT LEAST 50% damage boost to be worthwhile and even then we need 2 other people to pull it off, 1 minimum if you are nixing SA.

50%? So assuming that your SATA/WS does like 5k, you would be okay with your two hour ability being a chance to add 2500 damage to that as long as the mob doesn't spin / move and the people in front of you stay lined up?

Even if it was a 100% damage boost, I don't think I'd be okay with that.

[Nebo]

Yeah...an extra WS (100% DMG boost) or half of a WS (50% DMG boost) would be a mighty underwhelming 2 hour to say the least.

But I would suspect that the developers view the enmity transfer property of this ability to be the primary feature, with a secondary nod to damage.

[Babekeke]

Yeah...an extra WS (100% DMG boost) or half of a WS (50% DMG boost) would be a mighty underwhelming 2 hour to say the least.

But I would suspect that the developers view the enmity transfer property of this ability to be the primary feature, with a secondary nod to damage.

And if it stacks with TA, the enmity transfer is completely irrelevant.

[Karbuncle]

And if it stacks with TA, the enmity transfer is completely irrelevant.

Not true... Unless you're misunderstanding how TA and the new JA Works...

Trick Attack Transfers the Enmity from the Trick Attack'd hit to the Player inbetween. Just that Hit.(Or WS)
The New JA Transfers all(Most?) Of the THF's Current Enmity to said player.

So its two different things essentially.

[Calatilla]

But unless SE change the way enmity works, the person you're giving all your hate to will already be capping hate anyway so it will essentially have no effect. I think thats what Bebekeke was referring to.

[Nebo]

So theoretically, if SATABA ("SATABA!!!!!!!") effects do stack, the attack would transfer accumulated enmity from the THF as well as the enmity from the damage dealt. Maybe thats what bamboozle will do by itself?

Which....I am have a hard time seeing a use for.

PLD Tanked fights...eh. Few and far between but lets just say you find yourself in one. You want Mr THF to pland a hate staple? But at the bginning of a fight, before all your DD's are hate capped (at which point the enmity properties of both this ability and trick attack become useless), Mr THF has no enmity to transfer.

-So it just becomes another trick attack. And is useless mid fight because, by the time MR THF has any kind of meaningful enmity to transfer, Mr Tank has already capped hate. "But accomplice and damage...and stuff?" Yeah, you are chillin in the mage party, who are you kidding?

Zerg fights.....I don't know. Yes it deals damage, but in the face of a possible Perfect Defense nerf, or non PD type zergs.....lets say BA actually does a lot of damage and plants a significant hate staple ala SATAVB circa 2004. Whichever sucker DD you just "bamboozled"....lol...has hate until everyone else reaches the cap. That creates the very real possibility that MR sucker DD is taking a dirt nap on tougher foes.

-And you thought people jumped out of the way for trick attack?

So yeah, an ability like this only really seems useful for the start of tanked fights...except that tanked fights don't happen.

The enmity transfer property of this ability seems useless for that application. Also, maybe it's just me, but from the description, it does not seem clear whether Bamboozle will transfer enmity from the damage itself, or just the THFs accumulated enmity only...or will it be both? Trick Attack with a THF enmity transfer kicker?

If they are going to give us an ability like this, I'd rather they forget the enmity transfer.

Instead, have it deal its sever damage, grant TP, reset SATA timers, combine with SATA and remove positional/party member requirements from SATA for that attack. That way you could use it for a relevant damage spike...like we used to love to do, and have the option to condemn some poor sucker to death .....or not, in faster paced fights.

[Babekeke]

Not true... Unless you're misunderstanding how TA and the new JA Works...

Trick Attack Transfers the Enmity from the Trick Attack'd hit to the Player inbetween. Just that Hit.(Or WS)
The New JA Transfers all(Most?) Of the THF's Current Enmity to said player.

So its two different things essentially.

I obviously know how TA works, but so far hadn't seen anything on how Bamboozle works (is it even on the test server yet? I didn't see them announce it being on there) and the description isn't particularly clear.

[FrankReynolds]

I obviously know how TA works, but so far hadn't seen anything on how Bamboozle works (is it even on the test server yet? I didn't see them announce it being on there) and the description isn't particularly clear.

It says it transfers all your hate (not just the hate from that specific attack). Which means that it will be useful right around the time when BST gets that Treasure Hunter + gear that they were waiting for. Never.

[Babekeke]

It says it transfers all your hate (not just the hate from that specific attack). Which means that it will be useful right around the time when BST gets that Treasure Hunter + gear that they were waiting for. Never.

No it doesn't say that, that's how you are interpreting it.


Thief | Bamboozle | Deals severe damage and transfers your enmity to the party member in front of you.

[FrankReynolds]

Maybe he just missed it, but I said this in the 2 hour thread when people were debating how it worked:

That would kick ass, but I'm 99% sure it's just going to be a more powerful trick attack, that will transfer all your enmity (not just the enmity from that hit).

I then asked for clarification and Camate said:


Finally, in regards to a question about thief’s ability:



Can we get some clarification on the THF ability while your at it? Is it a duration effect? or a one shot move?

The major damage dealt will be a single attack. You can kind of think of it as the way Sneak Attack is used.

I probably should have directly asked if it actually meant all enmity, but I didn't actually think they would respond. I'm just assuming that since he didn't correct me, that that part was correct. You could be correct, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

Either way, it won't be a good 2-hour unless they add more to it or change it completely. Thief used to be able to plant hate on the tank without using a 2-hour ability. It would be pretty lame if our new 2-hour gave us the ability to do what we used to do with just SATA.

[Karbuncle]

No it doesn't say that, that's how you are interpreting it.

Its actually been translated from other sections, as well as i believe changed a few times in wording on our lovely NA boards, And you can check... Somewhere, Not doing the legwork myself as i'm already quite certain as to how the ability will work... But it says "Transfers Your Enmity"/"Transfer all of your Enmity".

Then again, If I'm wrong and it is Trick Attack With a longer timer, I'll be the first to say, Okay i was wrong and who on the Dev team do i send my generous thank you too for this gracious ability.

But yah, Its pretty... cleary... Thats its going to Transfer most if not all of the Thief's Current enmity to the player inbetween.

[Babekeke]

Its actually been translated from other sections, as well as i believe changed a few times in wording on our lovely NA boards, And you can check... Somewhere, Not doing the legwork myself as i'm already quite certain as to how the ability will work... But it says "Transfers Your Enmity"/"Transfer all of your Enmity".

Then again, If I'm wrong and it is Trick Attack With a longer timer, I'll be the first to say, Okay i was wrong and who on the Dev team do i send my generous thank you too for this gracious ability.

But yah, Its pretty... cleary... Thats its going to Transfer most if not all of the Thief's Current enmity to the player inbetween.

Tbh, I'm not even certain if they have decided how it's going to work yet... and hence why it never made it to the Test Server.

However it ends up working, I'm sure it will be EES2.

It will have a CHR mod.
Will now be damage reduced to 25% of the original damage, due to merits allowing it to be a 30 min ability.
Will probably be damage based on it being a forced crit, making it less useful to stack it with sa/ta.

What I'd like to see:

Grants 300%TP upon using the ability, to allow for stacking with WS/Self-SCing.
Adds damage based on DEX and AGI.
Forced Crit.
Ability to be actually targeted on the person you want to transfer hate to, alleviating the chance to completely waste your 2-hour because the person you're targeting felt it was time to dance around the mob.

Thinking about it, I always assumed that this should be stacked with SA/TA for maximum 1-shot damage to transfer as much hate as possible, but if it transfers all of the THF's hate, that's irrelevant, unless you are closing a SC and want to get as much SC damage as possible too.
That said, it needs to be balanced to do worthwhile damage when solo and not fail like trying to use trick attack solo (if it allows you to <st> the person you want to transfer hate to, allow it to also target yourself as the target for solo/tanking situations). Also needs to do good damage when not stacked with sa or ta, but not focus all it's damage properties on being a forced crit that when used with sa/ta it barely adds any more damage.

I think that makes sense?

[Falseliberty]

Know what I think? I think the 2hr sounds like total bust and even the devs know it, hence nada on the test server.
One thing I'd like to add is while most other jobs got a DD based 2hr (mighty strikes, hundred fists etc) they mostly got defensive ones this time around.
From the get go thf got a defensive one and the devs are struggling hard to come up with a decent DD orientated 2hr that's original and meaningful.
Look how bad we had to yell about bully in its original form, I'm predicting an other uphill battle

[Oakrest]

I'm also having a major issue with the whole enmity thing. The optimist in me believes that they have major plans to rework the enmity system at some point, but I would rather they give us some other form of ability now and save the enmity stuff for when it's actually useful again / if ever.

Me too - it's getting a bit frustrating that it isn't even being discussed. I'm going to create a new thread.

[Babekeke]

It was discussed. SE are changing the way that enmity works, particularly for PLD. I'll try and find the thread if I can remember what thread it was in.

[Falseliberty]

bumpity bump... come on SE not even a hint?
It's been a few months and all the other jobs have got to play with the new JAs on the test server now, can we please hear at least whats planned?

[Nebo]

SHHHHH! Asking them directly for things just makes them take even LONGER (is this possible) to do things.

You just have to go about your life and not wait for it. One of these years it will happen...or the servers will shut down....or the world might end.

Is there an award for absolute slowest company to do absolutely everything? I swear SE would have no competitors. They can't even communicate with their customers at an acceptable rate on these forums.... let alone actually produce anything worthwhile within a timeframe that doesnt kill off half their playerbase.

I BET it has someting to do with the fact that all those slackers play FFXI all day and never get any real work done!

Although we did get a "DHuurrrr Hurrrr Melee in TH gear because TH Gear is HARD WORK. SPRINKLES AND RAINBOW MAGIC PIXE DUST....YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" this week.

Let us just say....they are not thinking about THF in a way that you...or I...or anyone with an IQ north of a retared cranberry would like them to be thinking about THF.

They are not going to start either. This is imporant. We have begged, yelled, asked nicely, emailed various otherworldly entities, asked god, prayed to the other guy and EVEN asked Bill.

No Dice. SE is Thick and they like it that way. They prefer to make updates witohut ACTUALLY knowing what they are doing or why they are doing it. It makes it seem more "fun" to them.

This inevitably means: Your new 2 hour is going to suck.....badly. As are any and all further adjustments to the THF job going forward. In all reality, they will probably make the job worse somehow and less fun to play. Someting like that silly "we want to increase steal rate with TH level garbage they were spouting a while back"

Yeah. That is the kind of ridiculous, nonesensical, irrelevant crap we are in store for. Nothing useful. Nothing to deal with anything that is ACTUALLY relevant to the job. Just more useless garbage.

Nothing to see here. Give up on THF. It is not going to change....(Its probably only going to get worse form here)

[Corey]

Or an ability that gives target a 60-second Amnesia. Etc, etc...


now here's a 2-hour that would get thf in events for something other than TH

[Lokithor]

In the deafening silence from SE, let's try to determine what they have in store for us!

SE has shown that they do not consider Thf to be a damage dealer. In fact, they have been doing things specifically to minimize the DD capability of the job (such as a TH system that requires full time equip of extremely poor melee gear). They also consider Thf to be the master of hate manipulation, despite the fact that enmity is so broken, there is nothing to actually manipulate. Let's not forget our ability to steal useless items from low level XP class mobs! SE will focus their attention on enhancing those vital abilities!

I'm guessing a new ability that sacrifices all TP to directly increase TH level by 1 step. For balance, this will inflict a heavy Max TP down and Amnesia affect (duration 5 mins).

While under this affect, Thf will enjoy a Steal +1 bonus. When SE realizes that the Amnesia will effectively remove the Steal +1 bonus, SE will consider this and 6 months later declare that the limit is by design so as to not affect balance and to limit RMT from using the ability to increase their success in farming Bronze beast coins.

SE will not actually implement any enmity manipulation for this job ability as that will be moot considering that the ultimate goal is to dissuade anyone from including a Thf in their parties.

[Demon6324236]

I BET it has someting to do with the fact that all those slackers play FFXI all day and never get any real work done!With SEs lack of understanding how most things work, I have to assume they cant possibly play this game.

[Babekeke]

So what are SE thinking? I think they're trying to decide between these:

Perfect Hide: Hides from all manner of detection including true.

Perfecter Dodge: Dodges /ra too. (like the original one should have)

Sneakier Attack: SA but from any direction. 60s duration or 1 melee round, whichever comes first.

Trickier Attack: Transfers all accumulated enmity to person between THF and target.

Respoil: Despoil that works on NMs

Fleeeeeee: 60s Flee.

Tripplier Attack: 100% Triple Attack rate.

Super Mug: Mugs 10x regular mug amount and can be used on any NMs/Beastmen, even those that were for some reason forgotten about when abyssea was released.

Gil Forcer: 10 x Gilfinder potency. Forces gil to drop from all mobs for a 5 min duration.

Raider: Raider's Set +2 Bonus effect with 100% proc rate. Irrelevant of whether any Raider's +2 gear is worn. Still requires triple attack to proc to get any benefit.


OK, so I'm being sarcastic with most of those, but it really wouldn't surprise me. I imagine they'll give up and just give us 100% Triple Attack rate, like they gave WAR DA. Why waste time on a job that they only want people to stand there hitting the mob in 3 pieces of gear anyway?

[hiko]

sneak-trick stance: give sneak attack and trick attack for 30sec.

robber:30sec duration, add steal effect on 1 melee hit/round,if nothing is stolen ,no buff absorbed force TH+ proc!

[Babekeke]

force TH+ proc!

Oh jeez, please don't let this be our new 2 hour. THF instantly goes back to bandwagon TH7 + max haste/acc and 2 hour to give highest TH in 30 secs then GTFO TYVM >.>

[Calatilla]

Oh jeez, please don't let this be our new 2 hour. THF instantly goes back to bandwagon TH7 + max haste/acc and 2 hour to give highest TH in 30 secs then GTFO TYVM >.>

This, THF doesn't need anymore placebo hunter, it needs a DD ability.

[SpankWustler]

I think the Development Bros have hit the bottom of the well for normal bad ideas with the new Red Mage SP, and thus they'll have to go meta for the incoming Thief SP. Thus, I think the new ability will be:

Roguish Shame: Another button to accidentally hit that will display how many years and days and hours you have spent playing FFXI. Unlike the normal function, this one somehow accounts for time spent AFK. Those are less hours spent AFK than you thought, huh?

[Delvish]

They just posted a new possibility for THF 2 hour. I like this one a lot better actually. I know most will say "oh great... a hour recast aura steal" but this one allows you to steal most anything including special abilities. This makes me think fighting a mob like MNK or even AV would be really exciting.

[Nebo]

They just posted a new possibility for THF 2 hour. I like this one a lot better actually. I know most will say "oh great... a hour recast aura steal" but this one allows you to steal most anything including special abilities. This makes me think fighting a mob like MNK or even AV would be really exciting.

It could be good. It could be as garbage as aurasteal is.

What I mean is, mostly, Aurasteal is useful....but only reliable as as utility dispel. Actually stealing and absorbing desireable enhancements is mostly a losing proposition.

Aurasteal just has too much flawed functionality... which is sad, becuase the IDEA of aurasteal is very good. But alas,you cannot specify which enhancement you steal...and it is attached to a 5 minute timer. So if you are after that haste and you get blaze spikes. You're out of luck..

Item steal takes prioroty...so if you are after those pesky paralyzing ice spikes and you get a bone chip instead....you are out of luck.

You cannot even attempt aurasteal with a full inventory (which is becoming an increasingly large problem).

This is not even to mention that Aurasteal shares a timer with lolSteal and lolDespoil. Which is not so much an issue because those two abilities are garbage and not worth using, but it is in issue in that steal interferes with Aurasteal.

But even Aurasteal, in all its gloriously flawed functionality and shame, could still be potentially better than this SP2 ability....simply because now, with Assassin's Bonnet +2, you can steal 2 buffs.

So if SP2 steals ONE buff at random (like aurasteal) with only ONE random chance to steal an SP ability...forget it. It's useless.

If it does steal only one enhancement effect in the abscence of an SP ability....then it is WORSE than aurasteal AND on a 1 hour timer.

Useless.

No. One enhancement effect is not strong enough. And stealing SP abilities must be priortised over all else when present.

That would be worth having. If you don't do someting like this....back to the drawing board.

[Babekeke]

Aura Steal, the 1 JA/JT that THF has that I didn't account for in my earlier post of thoughts for SP2 being a HQ version of something we already have.

The post by camate says:


Steals a beneficial effect from the target. (Effect duration: instant)

For the effects that can be stolen, in addition to the same ones that are possible with Aura Steal, special abilities can also be stolen. (New special abilities are not included in this.)
In the event that there is no beneficial effect on the target, it will result in a miss.
*In this case the ability will be used and the recast timer will activate.


The bolded part implies to me that it's only dispellable buffs, and original 2 hour JAs. Which is a shame, as there are some mobs out there that get an un-dispellable Stoneskin or spikes effect, which could be very useful to be able to absorb. Particularly on mobs that don't have a 2 hour to dispel.

Now, let's see what SP are worth stealing...

Mighty Strikes - Very nice, particularly for the likes of exenterator.
Hundred fists - Very Nice.
Perfect Dodge - Time saver more than anything.
Chainspell - Useful more for just not having spells spammed on you, rather than being useful to have.
Invincible - Nice as a time saver or vs particularly nasty phys TP moves.
Blood Weapon - This could prove to be one of the best I think. Particularly Vs something dealing a lot of damage to you. Roll on THF/DRK^^
Meikyo Shisui - This is an odd one. Very useful if you're fast. If you're not fast will you only get 200%TP or 100% TP if it used a TP move or 2? Or will you always get 300% TP but only however many charges are left? Or do you just get the charges and no TP, since the TP is on activation? If stealing the SP is the same as if you just activated it, then this is very nice to steal :)

Benediction - N/A
Overdrive - N/A
Familiar - N/A
Eagle Eye Shot - N/A
Mijin Gakure - N/A
Wild Card - N/A
Astral Flow - N/A (at least, I think mob's AF is an instant ability - even if you can steal it, it's useless)
Call Wyvern/Spirit Surge - N/A (I think all DRG mobs use CW as 2H?)
Trance - N/A (unless /DNC and then slightly useful)
Tabula Rasa - N/A (or very limited use if /SCH, unless lolnewEmbrava/Kaustra are usable lol)
Soul Voice - N/A (unless /BRD, and then very limited use. And why are you /BRD?)
Azure Lore - N/A (unless /BLU and again limited use)
Manafont - N/A (unless /mage then slightly useful)

[Nebo]

I am concerned with the limitation of stealing SP abilities to SP1? Looking at the list, the majority of SP1 abilites cannot be stolen, as they are instant...and only a handful would be actually useful to the THF to "steal"

I'm sure it'll find some niche where its useful...I don't share the enthusiasm that others have shown though. This ability seams pretty weak...and again unneccessarily limited to me.

It may present a reason to bring more than one THF to a fight though...for certain monsters/events that use multiple devistating 2 hours?

[Arcon]

Nothing will ever present a reason to bring more than one THF, nor do I see why it should. In a group situation THF is a utility job, and there's hardly ever a need for two of the same utilities. We basically just got a situational Mighty Strikes, Hundred Fists, Meikyo Shusui, Blood Weapon, Chainspell, Invincible and Perfect Doge, all of which can be very useful when soloing. Not to mention it removes annoying effects from Monsters, which can be useful for the entire alliance during several events, Legion most notably comes to mind, but also some certain older content, like sky gods or sea jailers (including AV). So what if it can't steal every SP ability, it's still very useful with what it does.

This SP ability is pretty great overall, and I wouldn't want them to try and redo it again, because they'd only do a lot worse.

[Nebo]

Situationally useful? Yes. Great overall? I disagree.

[Babekeke]

Unfortunately, as our 'DD type SP', it's only great if you're fighting something with a great buff/SP to steal, eg a war, mnk or drk (possibly sam) mob that can use 2 hour.
Aside from DDing, it's great to mitigate damage either by stealling chainspell/Manafont form a mob like AV, or by stealing Perfect Dodge/Invincible to reduce your own damage taken or just speed up a fight to allow you to kill it faster.

As for using multiple THF in legion....

A WAR with Mighty Strikes (extendable through relic+2 aug) and perma-double attack and Ragnalution or Ukko's spam will still do way more damage than a THF that stole 25 secs of Mighty Strikes trying to spam Exenterator/Rudra's. Oh and lolperfect dodge.
No, a THF would be there for the same reason as a SMN would be. To mitigate damage taken by the DDs. And you already have SMN there for that. And remember that when this ability comes out, SMN also gets the ability to back-to-back spam BPs straight after they PD'd the DD party.

[Arcon]

As for using multiple THF in legion....

I'm not sure if that was a reply to me, but my post was a reply to FrankReynolds, where he said Aura Steal should have been able to do that. My point was that if it did, even one THF in Legion would be able to counter all Gallus' Mighty Strikes.


No, a THF would be there for the same reason as a SMN would be. To mitigate damage taken by the DDs. And you already have SMN there for that. And remember that when this ability comes out, SMN also gets the ability to back-to-back spam BPs straight after they PD'd the DD party.

A THF would be there for the same reason it is there now, TH. But in addition to that, it could help with Mighty Strikes. Sure, you could use a SMN for that, but that would mean removing another useful job, as many groups currently do not have a SMN with them (including us) but do take a THF.

[Byrth]

A THF would be there for the same reason it is there now, TH. But in addition to that, it could help with Mighty Strikes. Sure, you could use a SMN for that, but that would mean removing another useful job, as many groups currently do not have a SMN with them (including us) but do take a THF.

Pretty much this. SE has reaffirmed multiple times that they feel having the highest available level of TH in the game gives THF all the utility they need. The fact that they're giving THF a useful SP ability beyond that (negating other SP abilities, at that) is awesome.

In events like Legion, THFs do shit damage even if they're in a main party getting buffs due to level correction and the sacrifices they have to make to increase accuracy. Thus, you might as well bring another DD and leave the THF in the mage party. If said THF can dispel Mighty Strikes for us once a run against Gallu, that'll be great. Gallu does normal melee hits for over 2000 damage in MS. Getting rid of it is a top priority and we bring THF anyway, so it's win/win.

[Nebo]

This is my issue though. It's win/win because for events like legion where THF would be there for TH, it's a "well, I might as well steal Mighty Strikes since I'm here chilling in the mage party anyway."

I would like to see THF adjusted to NOT be that...but I've long given up that this pipe dream will be a reality.

But this ability.... it's not so desireable that you would bring a THF specifically for it. Especially considering the things its NOT good for. Like protecting against instant 2hours, SP2 2 hours, devestaing tp moves etc. Things that Perfect defense, Chain spell Stun, etc. deal with MUCH better.

For events where you need to deal with 2 hours and moves like that, you're going to bring jobs to deal with those 2 hours. This "special ability" is not so special that it can do that even remotely close to as well as any other job.

A "hey you're here for TH so you might as well use this SP2 ability" is not the kind of thing that interests me.

It sounds like somewhat of a success though, because I hear lots of positive feedback. Perhaps I'm the only one that feels this way?

[SpankWustler]

In light of hearing the Development Bros' strongly implied "vision" for Thief over and over, people are probably just happy to have something decent. Particularly, something that doesn't kill the Thief to apply Treasure Hunter 20 because they think Treasure Hunter 20 is statistically valid.

It's like if a tribe who believed deformed babies belong to the hippopotamus were in charge of a local hospital's NICU, basically. You're expecting, "Let's perform surgery to fix this cleft palette!" Everybody else is just relieved to hear, "Let's not feed this one to the hippo that lives on the ground floor," and doesn't want the Development Hippo Feeder Bros to re-think that decision again.

[FrankReynolds]

It's like if a tribe who believed deformed babies belong to the hippopotamus were in charge of a local hospital's NICU, basically. You're expecting, "Let's perform surgery to fix this cleft palette!" Everybody else is just relieved to hear, "Let's not feed this one to the hippo that lives on the ground floor," and doesn't want the Development Hippo Feeder Bros to re-think that decision again.

/Sigh... This is what it has come to. People are excited that the devs added a new ability that did not make the job worse. Full blown Stockholm Syndrome has kicked in. I expect my next Square Enix bill to be written in letters clipped from tabloid magazines and to include the severed finger of a dear childhood friend.

[Arcon]

While I agree with the monkey on almost everything, this time I only liked their post for the humor, not for the content. That's not at all how I feel about it, if you are, I'm sorry that it didn't pan out any better for you, but I'm very happy about this. Like I said, I wouldn't trade it for 30s worth of Triple Attack, and a while ago I would have killed for that.

[Khajit]

/Sigh... This is what it has come to. People are excited that the devs added a new ability that did not make the job worse. Full blown Stockholm Syndrome has kicked in. I expect my next Square Enix bill to be written in letters clipped from tabloid magazines and to include the severed finger of a dear childhood friend.

Stockholm syndrome would imply we're overjoyed at this when we're just worried that things can only get worse.

[SpankWustler]

I do think the new SP is a very useful ability, which maybe my post didn't convey through the bitterness about the Development Bros and Treasure Hunter. It's probably better than a damage ability, given the issues that one-handed melee have with damaging difficult things on a core level.

I'm just surprised that more people aren't asking for this SP to be improved somehow while keeping the same concept; stuff such as dispelling all remaining buffs after stealing the highest priority buff. Since this isn't a buff beyond the possible benefit of something stolen, but more of a one-shot buff-removal on the enemy, it seems like there's a lot of room for improvement without making the ability too strong.

[Khajit]

That's what I want but im afraid SE might think our current SP2 they're making is the best out of all SP2 and could try that crap they did with tickets where they present us with worse options when they retool things.

[Ziero]

So basically, we go from getting TA2 to Aura Steal 2? Really, how is this good? The only mobs with 2 hours I know of are either in events where there's tons of mobs using 2 hours or with mobs who use multiple two hours per fight. Meaning, that like Aura Steal, this thing would be kinda nice every now and then, but in the long run it's not going to help at all. This ability...is pretty much as useless as the rest of the Steal abilities.

I mean hell, only 6 of the two hour abilities are even worth stealing, making this trick that much more useless.

[Calatilla]

THF can't have nice things because it has the all powerful TH trait, so that makes it OK. Would have much preferred a DD orientated SP to a 1 time "run in and steal that mobs 2hr then GTF back in your corner" deal.



I'm just surprised that more people aren't asking for this SP to be improved somehow while keeping the same concept;

It was suggested that they could maybe add a bit of dmg to the ability along with the stealing of an effect to make it a bit more useful. To which SE replied to by saying that by adding any kind of DMG to this ability would need to be "balanced" by reducing the steal rate to no longer be 100%.

30 seconds of amnesia would be a nice addition to stealing a mobs 2hr I think, just to make sure it doesnt try and one shot everyone in vanadiel right after you stole its 2hr.

[Babekeke]

I'm not sure if that was a reply to me, but my post was a reply to FrankReynolds, where he said Aura Steal should have been able to do that. My point was that if it did, even one THF in Legion would be able to counter all Gallus' Mighty Strikes.

No, it was in response to this:


It may present a reason to bring more than one THF to a fight though...for certain monsters/events that use multiple devistating 2 hours?




A THF would be there for the same reason it is there now, TH. But in addition to that, it could help with Mighty Strikes. Sure, you could use a SMN for that, but that would mean removing another useful job, as many groups currently do not have a SMN with them (including us) but do take a THF.

Yeah sorry I was referring to any additional THF that were brought along. Obviously didn't make that clear. As for not taking a SMN, do you use SCHs for embrava, if you're not using PD? If not the updates will just make the whole event easier for your group, as mobs will have 10 less HP (and a thf to remove MS).

[Babekeke]

Thief
A Japanese player who was testing out thief’s new special ability reported that they were unable to steal Meikyo Shisui and was curious if this was a bug or not.

Due to the fact that the Meikyo Shisui used by enemies is processed in a special way, it is not possible to steal this special ability. The reason for this is that when a monster uses Meikyo Shisui there is no enhancement status, it is only processed as the monster can do X amount of weapon skills after it is executed. Astral Flow also falls into the same category as this, and neither of these abilities can be stolen off of monsters.


So Meikyo Shisui has been clarified to be epic fail. Now down to only 3 DD buffs, 2 defense buffs, and a few dispel only buffs (ie chainspell/manafont that are nice to get rid of, but don't help the thf).

[Arcon]

Manafont is not useful to steal in any way. Mobs will never run out of MP in a relevant situation.

[Babekeke]

stealing manafont from AV prevents it casting Meteor. Not sure if there are any other mobs similar, possibly Shantotto or something?

[Arcon]

stealing manafont from AV prevents it casting Meteor. Not sure if there are any other mobs similar, possibly Shantotto or something?

I didn't know that, nevermind me then.

[Kirana]

My idea for the ability:

It should instant-kill any non-NM mobs (similar to Summoner's Odin).

Against NMs, it should do roughly double the damage of a weaponskill (rudras/mercy) and stack with sneak/trick attack and prepare the mob for a skillchain. Sneak/Trick timers would be reset upon use of the 2 hour so that a follow-up bully->SATA could be used to complete the chain.

Alternatively, instead of the skillchain, it should add a potent debuff like amnesia/paralyze/silence that cannot be resisted.

edit: Just finished reading the thread and I see they are changing it to Aura Steal+1...oh well ; ;

[Calatilla]

My idea for the ability:

It should instant-kill any non-NM mobs (similar to Summoner's Odin).

Against NMs, it should do roughly double the damage of a weaponskill (rudras/mercy) and stack with sneak/trick attack and prepare the mob for a skillchain. Sneak/Trick timers would be reset upon use of the 2 hour so that a follow-up bully->SATA could be used to complete the chain.

Alternatively, instead of the skillchain, it should add a potent debuff like amnesia/paralyze/silence that cannot be resisted.

edit: Just finished reading the thread and I see they are changing it to Aura Steal+1...oh well ; ;

That would have been too over powered for THF, remember SE don't like THF doing dmg.

[Arcon]

That would have been too over powered for THF, remember SE don't like THF doing dmg.

That would have been completely shitty. I was as excited as anyone about THF doing more damage, but in the form of a SP ability it will be entirely useless. For solo efforts it's hardly a benefit, unless you're fighting a particularly hard NM (is there one that THF can solo/lowman?), because it will not speed up your Dynamis or Salvage farming or whatever else it is you do any. And it will be completely useless in party/alliance situations, because you would still barely register on the parse ranking (maybe slightly above the bored WHM who threw a Holy in).

The current ability on the other hand can save your life in certain situations, and save your entire alliance's life in others.

[Byrth]

Current 2-hour: High alliance utility, moderate lowman utility
DD 2-hour on THF: Low alliance utility, moderate lowman utility

I think THF got the right 2-hour?

[Calatilla]

That would have been completely shitty. I was as excited as anyone about THF doing more damage, but in the form of a SP ability it will be entirely useless. For solo efforts it's hardly a benefit, unless you're fighting a particularly hard NM (is there one that THF can solo/lowman?), because it will not speed up your Dynamis or Salvage farming or whatever else it is you do any. And it will be completely useless in party/alliance situations, because you would still barely register on the parse ranking (maybe slightly above the bored WHM who threw a Holy in).

The current ability on the other hand can save your life in certain situations, and save your entire alliance's life in others.

Yea, I never said it would have been good lol I just said that SE looks down on any suggestion of beefing THF`s DD up even slightly, because we have TH.

Theres only 1 reason THF`s DD is shit, and we all know what that is.

[Calatilla]

Current 2-hour: High alliance utility, moderate lowman utility
DD 2-hour on THF: Low alliance utility, moderate lowman utility

I think THF got the right 2-hour?

I can see your point, but how would you feel about inflicting a short duration Amnesia effect on mobs in addition or in place of stealing a 2hr? Seeing as this SP is useless on most of them.

[Byrth]

That would certainly make the ability stronger are you're free to crusade for it if you want, but realistically SE doesn't actually respond to player suggestions and is going to implement the ability as-is regardless what you say. I'm over the "lets try to improve it!" phase and on to the "Well, at least it isn't Perfect Parry!"

[Calatilla]

Im well aware SE don't listen to the players, just looking at RDM tells you that lol

[Babekeke]

I can see your point, but how would you feel about inflicting a short duration Amnesia effect on mobs in addition or in place of stealing a 2hr? Seeing as this SP is useless on most of them.

This I think would be more appropriate to add to RDM's 2 hour. JA that you use on the mob, inflicting amnesia for 30 secs, and during that 30 secs the next enfeeb used will be 100% guaranteed to land at full potency.

[Randnum]

Even considering that it can be useful, I don't think it is too much to ask for it to be a little better.

I really really like the idea of it inflicting Amnesia for a short time. 15-20s, if they want they can extend it with ... Steal+ gear...

The simple reason is that THF relies on positioning as it is and some things reset hate or otherwise make it difficult for the THF to use this ability exactly when you'd want it. Having a Thief 'steal your knowledge' for a bit seems ok given that we are already stealing magical auras, etc.

We've also been wanting a way to at least slow down WS spam on mobs for a bit, right? If Amnesia properly prevents monsters from using TP attacks (or even ones that just aren't triggered by their HP level reaching a certain point) then technically it would also stop Meikyo Shisui)

Just make us able to also create a tiny window where we know the mob won't butcher us with ANY of its serious abilities, I hope that's not too much to ask for a Special ability, since against certain enemies, even solo, Perfect Dodge couldn't save you but this could.

Therefore I fully support any and all calls to have this also inflict short-duration Amnesia, and I hope that becomes something more people ask for.

[Zirael]

New THF SP2 is very very good when you're fighting Paramount Gallu and... what else in the current game? Outside of that one situation, will it be discernible from Aura Steal? I think i'm not the only one that suspects it's utility will be similar to Aura Steal (being able to steal 4-5 nice buffs in the entire game: Fluorescence, MotherGlobe-ShockSpikes, Berserk, Animating Wail).
Thief has already plenty of useless steal abilities: Steal, Mug, Despoil.
I see no reason in adding another Aura Steal, just add some armor piece that enables stealing of enemy SP with old Aura Steal. Was it so hard to come up with: "Steals enemy's SP ability. If no SP ability available, inflicts Amnesia."?

And yes, I realise it's not as bad as RDM, it still needs improvements tho. I see no one complaining about WAR SAM PLD etc because they're universally useful, no matter what enemy you're fighting.

[FrankReynolds]

New THF SP2 is very very good when you're fighting Paramount Gallu and... what else in the current game? Outside of that one situation, will it be discernible from Aura Steal? I think i'm not the only one that suspects it's utility will be similar to Aura Steal (being able to steal 4-5 nice buffs in the entire game: Fluorescence, MotherGlobe-ShockSpikes, Berserk, Animating Wail).
Thief has already plenty of useless steal abilities: Steal, Mug, Despoil.
I see no reason in adding another Aura Steal, just add some armor piece that enables stealing of enemy SP with old Aura Steal. Was it so hard to come up with: "Steals enemy's SP ability. If no SP ability available, inflicts Amnesia."?

And yes, I realise it's not as bad as RDM, it still needs improvements tho. I see no one complaining about WAR SAM PLD etc because they're universally useful, no matter what enemy you're fighting.

Pretty much. If this sort of ability was given to any other job, people would be throwing a fit about right now about how bad it is.

[Metaking]

i dont know, blu could do some real evil with that 2hour, but that's because for blu stealing mage and melee 2hours would both be incredibly useful, but back on subject for thf would this be able to steal those buffs that are general unsteable/dispellable i know there is a better examples that the pots in seas reactor cool but to late for me to think of one

[Thegreatmonkey]

The problem being with THF is that it is supposed to be the party's hate controller. Yes we can solo a lot of stuff in the game but THF was more built for party use in that they take hate from other players and pass it onto another one. What I think THF 2hr should be is something that could take all party hate and then transfer it to them self and then with maybe something like Track Attack (while the 2hr is still on) transfer that hate onto a single player.

[Calatilla]

The problem being with THF is that it is supposed to be the party's hate controller. Yes we can solo a lot of stuff in the game but THF was more built for party use in that they take hate from other players and pass it onto another one. What I think THF 2hr should be is something that could take all party hate and then transfer it to them self and then with maybe something like Track Attack (while the 2hr is still on) transfer that hate onto a single player.

You mean SCH`s new SP2. Nah, unless they fixed the enmity system this would be pointless. You`d reset the hate of everyone in your pt for about 30 seconds until they all reached the cap again.

[Thegreatmonkey]

You mean SCH`s new SP2. Nah, unless they fixed the enmity system this would be pointless. You`d reset the hate of everyone in your pt for about 30 seconds until they all reached the cap again.
True, the SCH new 2hr should of gone to THF and I still have hopes that they will fix the enmity system sometime soon.

[FrankReynolds]

True, the SCH new 2hr should of gone to THF and I still have hopes that they will fix the enmity system sometime soon.

They said they were going to fix it. But then again, they said that aura steal was too uber powerful to be separated from steal so they may not actually know what fix means.