Do you really think that little of your player base?

[Nala]

I do not mean this to be derogatory or even an attack on the Dev team as a whole however i've just about hit my threshold for how much of this i can take at this point.

The way this game was developed where every technical aspect was vague or mired in mystery has fostered a player base that (for the most part) seeks the truth, save you coming out and actually announcing the damage calculation works and blowing every ones mind we have figured it out.

I say this because i can not comprehend how some of the answers you constantly give us fly, its rather insulting that you think such half assed answers would be enough for us to go "oh ok... guess you're right" because they are not.

Know what it says to me every time i see an answer that is "balance" or any other equivalent? We don't know the first thing about how the game actually works despite the fact we made all the equations.

The only real proof i need on this matter is the sever lack of attention RDM and the emity system in this game has achieved, furthermore relics why balance that's why.

STOP IT, its insulting, give us detailed technical reasons, we can why can't you? it is your game as you oft like to emphasize when you tell us that you know better despite the fact that we play the game. Despite the fact that not just one community but every one NA, JP or EU seem to agree on a point yet you still come out with one of these half baked answers.

[Ullysses]

I do not mean this to be derogatory or even an attack on the Dev team as a whole however i've just about hit my threshold for how much of this i can take at this point.

The way this game was developed where every technical aspect was vague or mired in mystery has fostered a player base that (for the most part) seeks the truth, save you coming out and actually announcing the damage calculation works and blowing every ones mind we have figured it out.

I say this because i can not comprehend how some of the answers you constantly give us fly, its rather insulting that you think such half assed answers would be enough for us to go "oh ok... guess you're right" because they are not.

Know what it says to me every time i see an answer that is "balance" or any other equivalent? We don't know the first thing about how the game actually works despite the fact we made all the equations.

The only real proof i need on this matter is the sever lack of attention RDM and the emity system in this game has achieved, furthermore relics why balance that's why.

STOP IT, its insulting, give us detailed technical reasons, we can why can't you? it is your game as you oft like to emphasize when you tell us that you know better despite the fact that we play the game. Despite the fact that not just one community but every one NA, JP or EU seem to agree on a point yet you still come out with one of these half baked answers.

Thank you. If I knew you I would kiss you right about now. This explains exactly how SE has been ever since the beginning. As a player since 2004, I feel like every update they come out with is trial and error process. It seems like they can not get anything right regardless of their players providing them with the correct answer. With the past recent update I do not know how much longer I feel like wasting my money on this game.
SE you seem to speak a lot about "balance" with jobs yet you are incapable of putting any form of balance to the system. Everything in this game is design to work in every way against the players advantage. Your new content from previous updates need revising with the mindset of balance. For example, Neo-Nyzul Isle and Voidwatch drop rate. It seems like the development team bases everything in this game off luck, they adore the luck aspect rather than balanced system that rewards the player based on how hard they work towards something. I understand SE makes content that are overly unbalanced so that players play for such a long period of time attempting to accomplish something, in turn maximizing SE's profit. It is correct this type of development of a game works for a small amount of time, but in the long run people are going to become fed up with it and quit. The content they provide the players with are far from what you consider fun. Repetitive mindless tasks are not considered fun, I would really love for the developers to understand this concept. If you want to keep your players tuned in learn to provide content that is fun. On top of that, quit neglecting the many problems complaints about the game and try fixing them. Your constant nerfing, elaborate excuses and ridiculously difficult tasks you ask of players makes me wish I had never picked this game up 8 years ago.

[Zhronne]

They have sometimes given detailed replies, which only shows they are able to.
They need to make this the standard, and not the rare thing to happen.

[Nala]

Blah i care less on what they decide to do and more on how they decide to explain it, its very insulting, not that i'd be any less upset but why not try telling the truth for once?

"were sorry too busy with other things to bother" (and you know what im actually fine with an answer like this if its actually the truth)

"we actually don't care"

"we are too lazy to actually bother"

because even if you do not say that, this is what i see when we get a half assed answer.

[Balloon]

It's not even a problem of being inaccessible to the playerbase. Give a laymans description, followed by a detailed description. Both players that understand and players that can't will be appreciative, one for being given a full answer that they understand and can accept, and the other for merely seeing that they're capable of giving a full detailed answer and that they don't treat their playerbase like children.


I just wanted to let you know that we understand everyone's viewpoints as to why swapping additional gear via macros would be favorable, and to some, it may not.

This was the pinnacle of their non-answery to me. Making the claim that it'd be some huge imposition if they added more macro pallets. Trying to coin their laziness in a way that claims to be beneficial to some. There's no problem with adding more gear swaps for anyone, it'd only help, those that don't want to use it wouldn't.

They opened these forums to give us the illusion we were contributing, but all they've really asked us for is what music we want for legion. Underneath it they are still the same stubborn dev team that they were in 2004.

[Mifaco]

They think little of the JPs
They think even less of the NAs

[Nala]

I could just be imagining things but when the forums first started and abyssea was still in full swing it seemed like the Dev team was actually trying...

[Zhronne]

This was the pinnacle of their non-answery to me. Making the claim that it'd be some huge imposition if they added more macro pallets. Trying to coin their laziness in a way that claims to be beneficial to some. There's no problem with adding more gear swaps for anyone, it'd only help, those that don't want to use it wouldn't.

It probably was an excuse, but it's true that (especially in japan) there are a considerable amount of players who are against the excessive gearswaps the game "requires" from the playerbase nowadays, especially for some jobs.

An idle set, a regen set, a refresh set, a movement speed set, a PDT set, an MDT set, a precast set, a postcast set, nuke set, debuffset, DD set, ws set, blah blah and countless variations of these sets.


It sure got to levels on a different scale compared to, say, the situation 5 years ago. This is for several reasons. I can think of the playerbase "growing up" and wishing to furtherly tweak their performance in-game, and because of SE offering countless new options of gear which are way too situational and can be used only for a couple of things.
This is especially evident for mage jobs.
I'm a complete mage noob, yet the amount of gear I have for my SCH and the amount of swaps I do gives me the headache.
Thinking about all the people who do that without spellcast just enhances these thoughts. (I don't, for instance)

So yeah, it's not just a couple of players, a considerable amount of players are against gearswapping.
As for my position I dunno, I'm a "slave" to the system of course, but while I really like a certain amount of gear swap, I also do think that nowadays' levels have definitely passed the line of acceptability, we really have too many situational pieces with very limited use. Some jobs are constantly swapping, it can understand some people getting annoyed by that.
Still, this is not something that can be fixed, it's too late, and certainly they cannot "fix" it by giving replies such as the one you mentioned, which is absolutely ridiculous of course.

[Balloon]

It probably was an excuse, but it's true that (especially in japan) there are a considerable amount of players who are against the excessive gearswaps the game "requires" from the playerbase nowadays, especially for some jobs.

An idle set, a regen set, a refresh set, a movement speed set, a PDT set, an MDT set, a precast set, a postcast set, nuke set, debuffset, DD set, ws set, blah blah and countless variations of these sets.


It sure got to levels on a different scale compared to, say, the situation 5 years ago. This is for several reasons. I can think of the playerbase "growing up" and wishing to furtherly tweak their performance in-game, and because of SE offering countless new options of gear which are way too situational and can be used only for a couple of things.
This is especially evident for mage jobs.
I'm a complete mage noob, yet the amount of gear I have for my SCH and the amount of swaps I do gives me the headache.
Thinking about all the people who do that without spellcast just enhances these thoughts. (I don't, for instance)

So yeah, it's not just a couple of players, a considerable amount of players are against gearswapping.
As for my position I dunno, I'm a "slave" to the system of course, but while I really like a certain amount of gear swap, I also do think that nowadays' levels have definitely passed the line of acceptability, we really have too many situational pieces with very limited use. Some jobs are constantly swapping, it can understand some people getting annoyed by that.
Still, this is not something that can be fixed, it's too late, and certainly they cannot "fix" it by giving replies such as the one you mentioned, which is absolutely ridiculous of course.

Even if it was true that there was too much gear swapping, which is something I personally love about the game, having more slots does not disadvantage anyone. They don't have to use them, at all. They could keep their macros exactly as they are, and those that want to use them can expand.

No problem.

[Zhronne]

I could just be imagining things but when the forums first started and abyssea was still in full swing it seemed like the Dev team was actually trying...
They certainly did a better job from that point of view.
Altough sometimes I wonder, is it good to do what users ask for?

My answer is: no. They need to listen to what we say and what we ask for, but they need to be in charge, they need to be the ones with ideas in mind, with a clear path in their mind, slightly adjusting that path according to our requests when it's possible.
Players very often think they know what they want, but they're usually completely unaware of the consequences such requests would bring if granted.
Players usually can see only their point of view and the point of view of people in their same league, thinking that everybody would think the same. They are very often unable to see the game from different point of view, from the point of view of a developer who has to try to satisfy the needs of very very very different kind of players, some of which probably don't even bother to post on forums.

Not trying to defend the current Dev team eh, just saying a good dev team cannot turn to players for guidance because they have no clue what to do next, they need to have a clear path, and then LISTEN to us, and try as much as possible to grant our requests when it's possible.


I enjoyed Abyssea wholeheartedly, but it's undeniable to me it kinda destroyed completely that very small "balance" the game had after having been finely tweaked year after year on the lv75 cap.
Many of the "hard" and "unwanted" decisions the current dev team has to take, is probably an attempt to try and fix the things that Abyssea "broke".
Not saying they are succeding, but I think this is what they're *trying* to do.


Where they're utterly failing atm, imho, is in the communication field, like Nala underlines in the first post of this thread and like I myself said in another thread today.
They need to stop giving us such crap generic replies as if we're all children/casualplayers who know jackshit about this game.
We know all the tiny details, we use mechanics similar to reverse engineering to find all the hidden formulas and stuff of this game. They can't give us reply ignoring that. Are they really that dumb that they don't read this and other forums? Are they just pretending to be that naive?
I don't know, but they need to stop it.
Couple of times they managed to give us detailed replies, they need to do it as much as possible, not just "a couple of times".
It's unacceptable to see replies like the ones we've seen the last weeks.
They need to give us DETAILED REASONS to explain why they are making certain choices.
Maybe we still won't agree with them, but at least we'll be able to UNDERSTAND why they are making some choices, and it would be BENEFICIAL for their reputation and the respect their player base ha sin them.
At the momen they're just givin the impression of a bunch of people who knows close to nothing about the game they're developing and keeping updated, which is a preposterous scenario.

[Zhronne]

Even if it was true that there was too much gear swapping, which is something I personally love about the game, having more slots does not disadvantage anyone. They don't have to use them, at all. They could keep their macros exactly as they are, and those that want to use them can expand.

No problem.
I absolutely agree with you, and that's why I said their reply makes no sense and that it doesn't fix/solve anything.
I was just saying that there actually *are* people who are against gearswap in general (I'm not one of them hey! I just said I think today there is way too much gearswaps than I'd like it to be), and wether or not they are bad players or good players (probably the first rather than the latter) they appearently are a considerable amount and of course developers need to take their opinion into some sort of consideration.

Still, is what they're doing the right solution? Of course not because adding more options wouldn't really change the choice of these people in any way, they would steel mantain their "right" to not use gearswaps or just us 6 lines, if they wanted to.
Unless they give us a technical or a gamedesign reply, the currently given reasons make absolutely no sense, there's little to discuss or disagree about that.

[Nala]

Heh well put, agreed they shouldn't bow to our every whim and demand however they need to at least try and meet us at a middle ground somewhere, as it stands there is no such compromise and on many of the things they are being stubborn on are the ones that need the attention and compromise most.

[Balloon]

I absolutely agree with you, and that's why I said their reply makes no sense and that it doesn't fix/solve anything.
I was just saying that there actually *are* people who are against gearswap in general (I'm not one of them hey! I just said I think today there is way too much gearswaps than I'd like it to be), and wether or not they are bad players or good players (probably the first rather than the latter) they appearently are a considerable amount and of course developers need to take their opinion into some sort of consideration.

Still, is what they're doing the right solution? Of course not because adding more options wouldn't really change the choice of these people in any way, they would steel mantain their "right" to not use gearswaps or just us 6 lines, if they wanted to.
Unless they give us a technical or a gamedesign reply, the currently given reasons make absolutely no sense, there's little to discuss or disagree about that.

I agree with you in the sense that if you want to utilise all the gear swap gear you must use Spellcast. Snapshot gear for instance. It's poor design at the end of the day.

[Zhronne]

Heh well put, agreed they shouldn't bow to our every whim and demand however they need to at least try and meet us at a middle ground somewhere, as it stands there is no such compromise and on many of the things they are being stubborn on are the ones that need the attention and compromise most.
Thing is I would have way less issues in "accepting" their stubborness if only I was given some REAL REASON as to why they are doing certain things and goin a certain direction.
Like I said before, maybe I would still not agree, maybe I would still demand certain things, but at least I would UNDERSTAND the logic behind their behaviour and RESPECT their knowledge of the game, its mechanics and its players.

[Ophannus]

Everything in this game is design to work in every way against the players advantage. Your new content from previous updates need revising with the mindset of balance. For example, Neo-Nyzul Isle and Voidwatch drop rate.
They addressed this at least on JP forum, they might have translated it but I don't remember. Anyway the reason why VW drop rates are "low" are because you can spam the NM infinite times in a row assuming you have stones or gil/CP/AN to get more stones. Unlike Nidhogg/Fafnir/KB etc which had decently high drop rates, those mobs only spawn once a day or once every several days. Not only was your chance of claiming it low, but the chance that it would drop the intended item and the chance of you winning the lot vs other people who needed/wanted it weren't 100%.\

Old NMS-
-Spawn time
-Competition
-Drop rate moderate-high
-Chance of winning lot vs others varies
-HNM fights could more than an hour for some shells, only the really well geared, well coordinated shells were able to kill top tier HNMs at 75 very quickly. Average LS took a while to down them if they weren't prepared.

Compare to VW:
-Always gives you SOMETHING
-Fights last anywhere from a few seconds to a few minutes.
-Can be spammed indefinitely.
-Can be spawn it any time
-Low drop rate on equipment.

So even if the drop rate for a body piece is 2-3%, since you could do 70 of them in a day, your chance of getting it is rather high, compared to Ebody at 75 which could take months of trying to get due to 1) trying to claim vs competition. 2) if you claim, will it drop? 3) if it drops, is it your turn to lot?

Also ppl exaggerate when they say they go 0/300+ on a body. I went less than 1/70 on all the bodies(i own them all) and I doubt that it was luck considering I have all of them. Most people who say they go 0/300+ are people who don't actually record how many runs they do because almost every time I do a T3 or a T4 there are 2-3 ppl who get a body.


As for Neo Nyzul, you could spam floor 80. They said floor 100 gear should be hard to get that why you're guaranteed a piece if you win. Floor 80 gear is actually very amazing(check the stats) if you do enough floor 80(even chumps can get to 80 easily) you get a floor 100 piece. People are complaining about how hard it is to get to floor 100 but the gear is amazing for the effort. Casual players can shoot for 80, put the stopper on 80 and farm astrariums, pretty much guaranteed to get to 80 for any decent group so you're assured a floor 100 piece eventually.

[Rosina]

First off, they do not have to tell you how the game works behind the scenes. Thats sorta how hackers/exploiters get data to make hax and exploits.

Second, luck based systems been in rpg since table top. You sorta NEED them in rpg because if everything was 100% content would would become obsolete that much faster.

Lastly, as for job balance, the fault lies with you guys. You guys pretty much fk'ed with the system. Now SE has to scramble to pretty much balnce the game around you guys.

This game worked so much better when gear swaping wasn't the norm.

[Connavarr]

They addressed this at least on JP forum, they might have translated it but I don't remember. Anyway the reason why VW drop rates are "low" are because you can spam the NM infinite times in a row assuming you have stones or gil/CP/AN to get more stones. Unlike Nidhogg/Fafnir/KB etc which had decently high drop rates, those mobs only spawn once a day or once every several days. Not only was your chance of claiming it low, but the chance that it would drop the intended item and the chance of you winning the lot vs other people who needed/wanted it weren't 100%.\

Old NMS-
-Spawn time
-Competition
-Drop rate moderate-high
-Chance of winning lot vs others varies
-HNM fights could more than an hour for some shells, only the really well geared, well coordinated shells were able to kill top tier HNMs at 75 very quickly. Average LS took a while to down them if they weren't prepared.

Compare to VW:
-Always gives you SOMETHING
-Fights last anywhere from a few seconds to a few minutes.
-Can be spammed indefinitely.
-Can be spawn it any time
-Low drop rate on equipment.

So even if the drop rate for a body piece is 2-3%, since you could do 70 of them in a day, your chance of getting it is rather high, compared to Ebody at 75 which could take months of trying to get due to 1) trying to claim vs competition. 2) if you claim, will it drop? 3) if it drops, is it your turn to lot?

Also ppl exaggerate when they say they go 0/300+ on a body. I went less than 1/70 on all the bodies(i own them all) and I doubt that it was luck considering I have all of them. Most people who say they go 0/300+ are people who don't actually record how many runs they do because almost every time I do a T3 or a T4 there are 2-3 ppl who get a body.


As for Neo Nyzul, you could spam floor 80. They said floor 100 gear should be hard to get that why you're guaranteed a piece if you win. Floor 80 gear is actually very amazing(check the stats) if you do enough floor 80(even chumps can get to 80 easily) you get a floor 100 piece. People are complaining about how hard it is to get to floor 100 but the gear is amazing for the effort. Casual players can shoot for 80, put the stopper on 80 and farm astrariums, pretty much guaranteed to get to 80 for any decent group so you're assured a floor 100 piece eventually.

I've been killing Pil since the NM was introduced, I have yet to obtain Toci's Harness. I am no closer to obtaining Toci's as I was the very first kill.

0/300+ is most certainly not an exaggeration, by me or the countless others who have been doing VW from the start. You went 1/70, that's great. I got Mekira first kill, it's the only body I've seen. Still doesn't mean 0/300 or 0/1,000 isn't a true statement. Random shit is random.

Edit: spelling.

[Demon6324236]

I've been killing Pil since the NM was introduced, I have yet to obtain Toci's Harness. I am no closer to obtaining Toci's as I was the very first kill.

0/300+ is most certainly not an exaggeration, by me or the countless others who have been doing VW from the start. You went 1/70, that's great. I got Mekira first kill, it's the only body I've seen. Still doesn't mean 0/300 or 0/1,000 isn't a true statement. Random shit is random.

Edit: spelling.

To add onto your point. I got Heka's 1st run I went, not sure if it was 1st kill but I think it was. I got Gansha's Mala on my win run for Bastok. I got Ace's Mail on my 4th fight with Uptala. I got the NQ GS & Scythe from Ig-Ailma on my 1st & 3rd kills. I got Ogier's Helm & Hands both on 1st kills of their respective NMs, and got Rubeus Boots on my 4th kill of the Pixie. At the same time, I finally got a Swiftwing from Aello after over 70 fights, got Rubeus Spats only after 26 Kalasutrax, and took more than 60 Kaggen to get a Phasmida Belt.

Just because you are lucky on some drops, does not mean its the same for everyone, its simply luck. Some of us will get luck in alot of places, look at my track record with gear, alot of things I honestly didn't even mean to get, Mala, Mail, those were things I use on DRK now, but never really wanted them, things for my RDM are the ones I really try for, and almost never get. Now I could say everyone who complains about Ace's Mail and Mala not dropping for them are a bunch of people just throwing out larger numbers to attract sympathy because they hate not getting their items, but in reality, it happens, because its so luck based. The same way as I know people including myself who do more than 30 T3 Zilart before seeing a single pouch, while others get 4 in a single run.

[Theytak]

Honestly, as true as this is, I think another huge thing we're missing right now is cohesion with the other player bases. Specifically, communication with the JP playerbase, such that we have some idea what in the hell they want. It'd be really, really nice to know the JP community's thoughts on a lot of the things we consider important issues, because it would both demonstrate to us why certain things happen despite us screaming our lungs out, and it would also hopefully point out to SE how much they play favorites, and how blatantly insulting it is.

that, and really, there are some things the JP players prioritize that just make absolutely no sense.

[Demon6324236]

This game worked so much better when gear swaping wasn't the norm.

Just to say, you brought it up before anyone else tried to use it against you in this thread, remember this before you try using this as an excuse for the fight that is now going to ensue between you & Arcon.

[Nala]

Not sure why i bothered to hit read post or that im responding to what you have said however i rather enjoy gear swapping, though i might agree that the amount of situational gear is hitting the relm of ridiculousness it doesn't mean that you should not gear swap.

Also wonderful logic there, RDM is unbalanced because we gear swap. go home rosa.

Also lets try and leave the favoritism side of things out of the conversation for now... should start another thread for that, just wanted to discuss the disgust at the current level of mishandling.

[Spiritreaver]

Very much agree with this thread and upped the OP. I suggest more ppl do the same and maybe it will receive some type of direct response.



1) First off, they do not have to tell you how the game works behind the scenes. Thats sorta how hackers/exploiters get data to make hax and exploits.

2) Second, luck based systems been in rpg since table top. You sorta NEED them in rpg because if everything was 100% content would would become obsolete that much faster.

3) Lastly, as for job balance, the fault lies with you guys. You guys pretty much fk'ed with the system. Now SE has to scramble to pretty much balnce the game around you guys.

4) This game worked so much better when gear swaping wasn't the norm.


@1-Hackers/exploiters have been doing their thing for years. Whether or not the developers tell us the reason behind their mindset on various issues has absolutely ZERO to do with hacks and exploits.

@2-In say AD&D(which i happen to have played a bunch as a kid-much love for Faerun!), luck is definitely needed. And again it is needed in offline rpgs. But this is a MMO, which is driven by you and a gaggle of other real ppl accomplishing tasks together after oft-times significant time investments. Its a case of apples vs oranges.

Rewards need to reflect the time and effort fielded by a group. Luck is a factor yes, but compounding multiple luck-based factors together when calculating those rewards is bad design. Period. Go look at any of the numerous threads various places on Neo-Nyzul Isle.

@3-Say what?!? I personally don't agree with every major stance the FFXI community has on various issues. That said, i can say that i can at least see where the reasoning behind it comes from most of the time. I really want to hear your rationale on this point.

@4-Pure personal opinion, and flat wrong. I was shown by the group that initiated me into the game('04), how to write macros like 2 weeks into playing. Now, i abhor excessive gear-swapping(i have a TP and a WS set for my DDs, plus WS specific swaps in the WS macro; also have comparable swaps for my mage jobs, casting and resting) at this point, but that's just me. Point being, swapping gear has ALWAYS been in the norm for most many players.

[Nala]

Rewards need to reflect the time and effort fielded by a group. Luck is a factor yes, but compounding multiple luck-based factors together when calculating those rewards is bad design. Period. Go look at any of the numerous threads various places on Neo-Nyzul Isle.

@3-Say what?!? I personally don't agree with every major stance the FFXI community has on various issues. That said, i can say that i can at least see where the reasoning behind it comes from most of the time. I really want to hear your rationale on this point.

@4-Pure personal opinion, and flat wrong. I was shown by the group that initiated me into the game('04), how to write macros like 2 weeks into playing. Now, i abhor excessive gear-swapping(i have a TP and a WS set for my DDs, plus WS specific swaps in the WS macro; also have comparable swaps for my mage jobs, casting and resting) at this point, but that's just me. Point being, swapping gear has ALWAYS been in the norm for most many players.

You must be new to dealing with rosina, add her to your ignore list, s/he thinks they are an actual good player and is on a constant crusade to spread his/her doctrine of "Be a top tier player in 0 gear swaps or less" but wait there's more, act now and we will throw in a free extra side of (text limitations), and if you call in the next 30 minutes we'll even throw in bad grammar and spelling for no extra charge.

Its ok though s/he types how s/he talks, also don't forget to defecate before you proof read your shit. (oh wait s/he doesn't)

Just to show you i care rosy you came in here first swinging and off topic you only bring what ever i or any one else decides to say at this point forward on yourself.

[Arcon]

This is the same post as before, only (mildly) less insulting, so it won't be deleted again. Regardless of the fact that I was only speaking the truth, even with all my insults, but that's another story and should give you something to think about.


[..]

Whenever I see your name above a post I need to mentally prepare myself. I need to quell any forthcoming feelings of rage and despise to be able to keep an open mind and a neutral point of view, so I can judge your posts by their own merits instead of my feelings about you. However, it's starting to feel like that's a complete waste of my time, as every single time your posts show a narrow-mindedness and arrogance that is virtually unmatched on these forums.


First off, they do not have to tell you how the game works behind the scenes. Thats sorta how hackers/exploiters get data to make hax and exploits.

We're not asking SE to reveal their login handshake process or encryption details. We're asking them to tell us how to play their game. If they won't reveal how damage calculation works, how are we supposed to know what gear is good and bad? It's like shipping a game without an instruction manual.


Second, luck based systems been in rpg since table top. You sorta NEED them in rpg because if everything was 100% content would would become obsolete that much faster.

First of all, wrong. You don't need luck at all. Everything luck-related has an equivalent progression model. Relics don't take luck. It's not a 0.0001% drop rate in Dynamis for a fully finished relic. It's dedication and effort that will eventually get you there. The same goes for mythic, and that's one of the biggest time-investments in the game.

Secondly, no one asked to remove luck entirely. But there is a middle ground. Pure luck is gambling. Gambling and playing are two different terms. People pay to play this game, not to gamble. That's what the lottery and casinos are for.


Lastly, as for job balance, the fault lies with you guys. You guys pretty much fk'ed with the system. Now SE has to scramble to pretty much balnce the game around you guys.

How did we fuck with the system? Is it our fault for using Embrava? Or that NIN use shadows to tank? SE gave us the tools. They cannot expect us to not use them. That even applies for gear swaps, although I seriously don't know how that has to do with anything in this thread. I'm guessing this is just your personal agenda again. Whichs brings me to...

This game worked so much better when gear swaping wasn't the norm.

Shut up. All you're doing is trying to do is hijack (yet) another thread to promote your own anti-gearswapping campaign. You have nothing to contribute, as usual, and all you're doing is inciting flame.

[sc4500]

First off, they do not have to tell you how the game works behind the scenes. Thats sorta how hackers/exploiters get data to make hax and exploits.

Second, luck based systems been in rpg since table top. You sorta NEED them in rpg because if everything was 100% content would would become obsolete that much faster.

Lastly, as for job balance, the fault lies with you guys. You guys pretty much fk'ed with the system. Now SE has to scramble to pretty much balnce the game around you guys.

This game worked so much better when gear swaping wasn't the norm.

1st: the the exploits come from the fact , that no amount of testing they can find them all. They can not test everything, and the users find them out, normally on accident what the users do with it can suck, once i found a bug were on a dial-up connection and someone calls in to your house on call waiting you were able to dupe items in the AH, once it happen I contacted a gm right away and in few hrs they shut down the AH and fixed it.

2. This part I agree 100% need some randomize stuff and also they need to make sure the harder it is the better it is.

3. The job balance part is that they got a few hundred thousand people able to find stuff that works out way better then they had designed it and at that point they should see why we like it that way. I do not see them paying thousand of people to test there jobs otherwise take 10yrs just to get a new job or balance a job out to perfection.

4. gear swapping sucks and is broken and thats were they need to have gear that we use so that we do not need to swap, and should just have to do some crazy quest to add some of the stuff to the gear that were swapping, hate being a whm and trying cure someone thats swapping gear and can not cast it on them and then they bitch that they died at you. It stupid.

[Demon6324236]

Sorry, small note on your post rq.
2. This part I agree 100% need some randomize stuff and also they need to make sure the harder it is the better it is.A 1% drop off an easy NM is not hard to get, it is annoying. There is a fine line between the 2 that people often do not seem to see.

[sc4500]

Sorry, small note on your post rq.A 1% drop off an easy NM is not hard to get, it is annoying. There is a fine line between the 2 that people often do not seem to see.

True, and a valid point, but if it is a nm that got a brutal lottery time spawn like 5hr to 72 hrs then it is like wtf. and yea all the gear now days is junk on those nm's and you got the low drop rate, but if going to be that hard they should make some good come of it. just the time sink alone.

[Zhronne]

Also ppl exaggerate when they say they go 0/300+ on a body.
Trust me, not everybody exagerates. Someone does probably. I'm over 0/300 (stopped counting) on Langeleik, the harp from Celaeno, Bastok T4. Never seen an Anhur robe either, not that I wanted one, just sayin.
Oh and I'm close to 0/300 on Coruscanti as well, those two are definitely the mobs I spammed the most.
And I'm 0/147 on Meikira Meikogai and Phasmida Belt as well. Didn't track the tiers they added after that. I did get a Heka's Kalasiris pretty fast though, and tbh I receiver THREE Heka's, two of which were reiceved straight in a row, one after the other lol.
This was just a reply to the part I quoted btw, don't want to argue about the rest of what you said.




As for Neo Nyzul, you could spam floor 80. They said floor 100 gear should be hard to get that why you're guaranteed a piece if you win. Floor 80 gear is actually very amazing(check the stats) if you do enough floor 80(even chumps can get to 80 easily) you get a floor 100 piece.
25 runs imho is no a balanced number, but that's just me.
What's annoying of course is that they dediced to act too late. Now a lot of people who cheated are 15/15 on Nyzul gear, and I don't find it "right" if you ask me. Nothing will be done about those people and I'm fine with that, I have no grudge against them nor I want them punished, but still, that gear is already very much spread around and not as "rare" as they wanted it to be. They might as well patch Nyzul and make it a little more bearable since they failed in their objective of making that gear super-rare.

[Zhronne]

though i might agree that the amount of situational gear is hitting the relm of ridiculousness it doesn't mean that you should not gear swap.
Just to clarify on this issue because I hate being misunderstood.
I never said that they should stop allowing us to gearswap or that the gearswap mechanic should disappear from the game.
I *love* gearswapping.

I just said that over the last year/years, because of several reasons, we kinda reached levels of "required" swapping which are ridiculous. What I'd love would be to keep gearswapping, just a bit less than I'm doin today.
Alas, this is impossible and will never happen because one of the main reasons why people (me included) gearswap so much is because SE added so many situational pieces which are awesome but you can only use in very specific spells/JAs/circumstances.

[Demon6324236]

25 runs imho is no a balanced number, but that's just me.
What's annoying of course is that they dediced to act too late. Now a lot of people who cheated are 15/15 on Nyzul gear, and I don't find it "right" if you ask me. Nothing will be done about those people and I'm fine with that, I have no grudge against them nor I want them punished, but still, that gear is already very much spread around and not as "rare" as they wanted it to be. They might as well patch Nyzul and make it a little more bearable since they failed in their objective of making that gear super-rare.

Completely agree with you, NNI is another event they messed up by not listening enough. 25 runs is 25 days, 25 days is almost a month of doing a run daily and making it to 80 for a single piece of gear. To get all pieces you need just around a year doing it via that method. They should have made it 10. Also they never listen about the problems and how to fix them in said event, over in the Battle Content forums there is a thread very long about NNI, and now about SE's "fix" which is really just patching the .dat mods somehow while not really fixing the problem in the end.

[Demon6324236]

Just to clarify on this issue because I hate being misunderstood.
I never said that they should stop allowing us to gearswap or that the gearswap mechanic should disappear from the game.
I *love* gearswapping.

I just said that over the last year/years, because of several reasons, we kinda reached levels of "required" swapping which are ridiculous. What I'd love would be to keep gearswapping, just a bit less than I'm doin today.
Alas, this is impossible and will never happen because one of the main reasons why people (me included) gearswap so much is because SE added so many situational pieces which are awesome but you can only use in very specific spells/JAs/circumstances.

Honestly if they gave us more inventory it wouldn't so bad imo, just because with more inventory we could hold everything without a problem. Gear like this actually helps make the game last longer in the end because we have more to hunt down and get if thats ones goal in the game.

[Zhronne]

I'd probably whine much less if I had, say, an inventory of at least 120 spots.
But there are circumstances where also blinking 5 times in a second can be annoying too (in before someone mentions BlinkMeNot).
Also some gearswaps, especially ones for mages, can sometimes be pretty complicated to handle without stuff like spellcast.

I feel fine about the gearswaps for my melee jobs, also because where possible I chose to go for the "compromise" of a gear which is slightly worse than another, but that I can use on 4-5 jobs instead than just one.
But on mage jobs urghhh it's a mess, and I'm not even a pro on mages, my SCH probably has 2/3 of the gear a "pro" SCH has.

[Nala]

Just to clarify on this issue because I hate being misunderstood.
I never said that they should stop allowing us to gearswap or that the gearswap mechanic should disappear from the game.
I *love* gearswapping.

I just said that over the last year/years, because of several reasons, we kinda reached levels of "required" swapping which are ridiculous. What I'd love would be to keep gearswapping, just a bit less than I'm doin today.
Alas, this is impossible and will never happen because one of the main reasons why people (me included) gearswap so much is because SE added so many situational pieces which are awesome but you can only use in very specific spells/JAs/circumstances.

You misunderstand, that statement was directed at rosy since he marched in here and kicked in the door shouting "ERHMEHGAWD GEAR SWERPS ARE EVUL DERP"

Anyways talking about situational gear lets list off all the diffrent sets a job may need:

Rng:
Snapshot
Endshot
PDT/MDT
Movement Speed
Last Stand ws
Coronach ws
JA enhancing gear: barrage, shadowbind, bounty shot, few others but not worth bringing up.
Melee
Melee ws

Samurai:
TP
Shoha
Fudo
PDT/MDT
Meditate
Hasso/Siegen
hmmm... coulda sworn i used more sets on sam then this oh well.

Mage jobs:
Haste/fastcast
Spell interuption rate
Cure potency
Enhancing
Enfeebling
Dark magic gear (drain/aspir gear)
Nuking (to include a minimum of 8 variations with staff and belt)
PDT/MDT
Refresh
MP while Healing (HMP)
Depending on the job individual JA augmenting peices.
Did i miss anything for mages?

Either way point is to be the top of your game you'd be employing most of these sets for each job, mages especially.

[Zhronne]

Did i miss anything for mages?

Specific gear for specific jobs. -BP, SMN skill, BP physical, BP magical for SMN. -song cast, -song recast, +skill, +macc/+chr for BRD. But then again these jobs tipically don't need other sets you listed like Enfeebling, Enhancing, Elemental etc.

I think you listed everything. I don't even have some of those sets for example, didn't want to bother (it has to be said though that I consider my mage jobs, tipically, as "secondary", so I don't really put on them the amount of attention I put on other jobs). Some of what you listed has several variations, or used to at 75.
I remember on BLMs in my shell had 3 main nuke sets years ago. One focusing on int, one on mab, one on accuracy/eleskill.
All of these had slight variations according to the specific spell (staff) etc.
On SCH I think I used to have only 2 nuking sets. One focusing on INT for Helixes, one focusing on mab for nukes.
I think I might have to look at them again though because a lot of gear changed and while those two sets were pretty different at start, they're probably almost identical by now.

As for the DD sets, they're usually more straightforward than mage ones. Some DDs have different TP sets though. One focusing on mobs which require extreme accuracy, Apoc DRKs have (or used to have?) different TP sets to cap their haste according to aftermath active or not, good MNKs should probably have at least 2 slightly different TP sets accoriding if Impetus is up or not (dunno if it's worth tbh) and stuff like that.
Oh and also idle/regen sets! Often mixed up with movement enhancing gear.

[Demon6324236]

Enhancing magic set is 100% needed for any RDM, enfeebling should be a priority as well.

[Kojo]

Damn, Rosina was so wrong it was painful.

[Plasticleg]

First off, they do not have to tell you how the game works behind the scenes. Thats sorta how hackers/exploiters get data to make hax and exploits.

Second, luck based systems been in rpg since table top. You sorta NEED them in rpg because if everything was 100% content would would become obsolete that much faster.

Lastly, as for job balance, the fault lies with you guys. You guys pretty much fk'ed with the system. Now SE has to scramble to pretty much balnce the game around you guys.

This game worked so much better when gear swaping wasn't the norm.

wat

dribble aside, you guys are forgetting "fun" gear-sets/changes for more resistant mobs...which effectively double/triple your macros :/

[Kojo]

What "fun" gear? I actually use my Ark Scythe. It's like 2004 again.. Sometimes my Entropys break 1k.

[Nala]

Anyways to elaborate i started this thread in hopes of enlightening the dev team exactly what kind of message they are sending the players.

That they are missing the point that you cannot fool us when you're just trying to BS, that your logic is constantly flawed and that the reasons you are giving are either excuses or made from plain ignorance on the way things are.

A grain of salt is order when it comes to our wants and suggestions but i can guarantee we know better then you what ails this game and while many fail to suggest work arounds and solutions, what few furnished are blatantly disgregarded, many suggestions may be off kilter, skewed or just plain off basis but at least look into the ones the player base is supporting, isn't that the reason we came up with these forums?

[Plasticleg]

What "fun" gear? I actually use my Ark Scythe. It's like 2004 again.. Sometimes my Entropys break 1k.

i meant to say, annoying extra macros to push, if i'm fighting a mob that needs more acc/str/etc. to get good numbahs.

and i still haven't tried my scythe out yet...but my mooglesuit...
oh dear.

[FrankReynolds]

Honestly, as true as this is, I think another huge thing we're missing right now is cohesion with the other player bases. Specifically, communication with the JP playerbase, such that we have some idea what in the hell they want. It'd be really, really nice to know the JP community's thoughts on a lot of the things we consider important issues, because it would both demonstrate to us why certain things happen despite us screaming our lungs out, and it would also hopefully point out to SE how much they play favorites, and how blatantly insulting it is.

that, and really, there are some things the JP players prioritize that just make absolutely no sense.

Too bad google translate is so bad. I really wish I could communicate with the JP forums.

EDIT: Also, I hate dealing with so much gear and crappy moogle slips, but I would much prefer hunting down 1,000 items with relatively decent drop rates over having to do the same thing 1,000,000 times to get that one uberomgIneverhavetoswapthispieceoutagain piece of gear.

A mix of magian trial type things that allow you to combine the 1,000 situational pieces from time to time, combined with a better macro system and a better storage system would be a huge improvement.

One can only dream.

[Damane]

First off, they do not have to tell you how the game works behind the scenes. Thats sorta how hackers/exploiters get data to make hax and exploits.

Second, luck based systems been in rpg since table top. You sorta NEED them in rpg because if everything was 100% content would would become obsolete that much faster.

Lastly, as for job balance, the fault lies with you guys. You guys pretty much fk'ed with the system. Now SE has to scramble to pretty much balnce the game around you guys.

This game worked so much better when gear swaping wasn't the norm.

oh god... I cant explain how much retardedness and idiocity is in this post... sorry, but this whole post is bullshit.

[Vivik]

First off, they do not have to tell you how the game works behind the scenes. Thats sorta how hackers/exploiters get data to make hax and exploits.

Second, luck based systems been in rpg since table top. You sorta NEED them in rpg because if everything was 100% content would would become obsolete that much faster.

Lastly, as for job balance, the fault lies with you guys. You guys pretty much fk'ed with the system. Now SE has to scramble to pretty much balnce the game around you guys.

This game worked so much better when gear swaping wasn't the norm.

Oh Rosina the 1%er... Luckily nobody cares what you think.

[Sp1cyryan]

First off, they do not have to tell you how the game works behind the scenes. Thats sorta how hackers/exploiters get data to make hax and exploits.

Second, luck based systems been in rpg since table top. You sorta NEED them in rpg because if everything was 100% content would would become obsolete that much faster.

Lastly, as for job balance, the fault lies with you guys. You guys pretty much fk'ed with the system. Now SE has to scramble to pretty much balnce the game around you guys.

This game worked so much better when gear swaping wasn't the norm.

I am convinced that you do not know what you are talking about.

See panel four of signature for appropriate facial response.

[Nala]

Blah as much as i do not like rosy lay off her/him, hasn't made another post yet.

[Kojo]

Anyways to elaborate i started this thread in hopes of enlightening the dev team exactly what kind of message they are sending the players.

That they are missing the point that you cannot fool us when you're just trying to BS, that your logic is constantly flawed and that the reasons you are giving are either excuses or made from plain ignorance on the way things are.

A grain of salt is order when it comes to our wants and suggestions but i can guarantee we know better then you what ails this game and while many fail to suggest work arounds and solutions, what few furnished are blatantly disgregarded, many suggestions may be off kilter, skewed or just plain off basis but at least look into the ones the player base is supporting, isn't that the reason we came up with these forums?

I think they know what we mean and get what we're saying, I have a feeling they are just being stubborn just to spite us. I've already decided that once the FFXI servers go down (please don't discuss this further) I won't be playing anymore MMOs. Definately not FFXIV, due to the way SE seems to handle things. The way they are doing things doesn't seem too good for them, the company that has provided so much constant entertainment for the past 15 years, after a friend introduced me to FFVII, when I was 7 or 8.


i meant to say, annoying extra macros to push, if i'm fighting a mob that needs more acc/str/etc. to get good numbahs.

and i still haven't tried my scythe out yet...but my mooglesuit...
oh dear.

Oh no.. I never wear the suit, but I'm glad I have it so if I decide to, looks great on Taru, odd on everything else.

Also, as awkward as Rosi's responses are, let's not get too out of hand or they'll lock the thread due to verbal abuse or something.

[Nala]

Oh dear lord... I read the quoted spankwustler as "can you imagine wanking up each morning..." x.x

I can't really speak for 14 good or bad but from what i do understand its actually being handled properly by comparison, however given that they are both ultimately from the same company that doesn't mean they cant start changing their tune soon as they start getting what they want out of 14 (aka profit)

[Nawesemo]

it changes, we take breaks, we come back , it changes more we like, dislike, but we always come back :D in anycase, thank you for manawall and manawell.

[Sarick]

A community representative will not touch on this topics subject because it'll incite more anger with the response message.

Rosia secondly, I was swapping gear back in 2004-2005 on my PS2 the moment I hit 51+. Mages just needed the staff swapping for enfeebling and resting.

[Nala]

Eh not expecting much more then a thread lock at some point, i just hope that the message is relayed because the comrep responses are well i cant even find a nice way to put it just some level beyond lack luster, considering i'm pretty sure a few of the comrep's play this game can only imagine how they must feel when they HAVE to give us half assed answers.

[SNK]

This game worked so much better when gear swaping wasn't the norm.

You know when you say silly stuff like this, it reminds me that I've forgotten more about how this game works then what you already know of it.

[Modoru]

You know when you say silly stuff like this, it reminds me that I've forgotten more about how this game works then what you already know of it.
Um... come again? I didn't quite understand that at all.

Also, while I don't think they "think very little of us", I do wish they would give us a more technical response as to why certain things are... as they are. I understand that you want balance, but if you can give me the mathy side of it, I'll be overjoyed. So would bluegartr, I'm sure.

Also I doubt "hackers would exploit" any answers, because most of these systems have already been figured out via testing half the time anyway? How do you we have half the equations for game mechanics we do now? Unless they gave us a game script file that would allow us to exploit... then yes, I do believe technical responses would be just dandy.

[Nala]

What is meant, the quantity of knowledge rosy possess is less then what he has forgotten about the game, its an underused statement to denote a difference in knowledge, in this case wielded in an insulting manner.

Like I said before, rosy's kept out since his/her/it's initial responce quit trying to fan him on /sigh

[Demon6324236]

Ok so I'm just going to say it. Its a little fucked up you are all still replying to a post made on page 2 when Rosina has said nothing else in this thread since.

[Chuk]

I just want to point out that if we already "know" the equations to everthing, why are you asking SE for them? To me it sounds like you are missing data and have incomplete information. As for getting detailed responses about adjustments, maybe we should be happy that they do communicate to us in this format. SE is not obligated to do this, and just telling us every detail about the game opens up the doors to their trade secerts about their own product. Maybe, just maybe, we were meant to explore this game and find things out for ourselves. Such a weird idea right?

[FrankReynolds]

I just want to point out that if we already "know" the equations to everthing, why are you asking SE for them? To me it sounds like you are missing data and have incomplete information. As for getting detailed responses about adjustments, maybe we should be happy that they do communicate to us in this format. SE is not obligated to do this, and just telling us every detail about the game opens up the doors to their trade secerts about their own product. Maybe, just maybe, we were meant to explore this game and find things out for ourselves. Such a weird idea right?

We have figured things out on our own. I think the motivation for this post is that we already know the ramifications of the changes proposed by the users of this site and we know the responses from the Devs are BS.

When we ask them to explain, we do so because we know the real reason is not what was given. We are more or less calling their bluff.

Of course SE has no obligation to tell us anything. However, being as there is a monthly recurring charge for the service, it would behoove them to respond honestly, clearly and with more frequency to their paying customers rather than blowing smoke up our collective bungs.

Both sides benefit from honest well thought out discussion. We end up either getting what we actually want, or at least knowing that there is a reason that they are not providing it. When they just say "Balance", we are left feeling like they just don't care what we think about it. If I as a programmer told a customer "Well, I thought about what you suggested and decided not to do it.", they would think I either didn't know how to do it, or I was just lazy (or worse, that I thought they were too stupid to understand the reasoning). If I say "we cannot do it that way because it does not meet hippa compliance standards and would put you and your customers at risk.", then they understand the reasoning and can decide for themselves if they should pursue the desired feature further, or accept that it is beyond the scope of their budget / needs / resources and move on.

Vague answers just create distrust and misunderstanding. They leave people to come to their own conclusions which often leaves them feeling negativity towards the company.

[Arcon]

Maybe, just maybe, we were meant to explore this game and find things out for ourselves. Such a weird idea right?

Yes, and the fact that you don't see why shows you understand very little of how games work. This is not looking for a hidden cave with secrets in it. This is information we need to play the game. Games are not designed for scientists, and you need to be a scientist to get many of these things right.

Also, there is a lot we don't know yet. For many things like Accuracy/Resist formulas, damage formulas for almost all kinds of damage, TH formula, etc. we only have approximations that took a considerable collaborative effort of many people to obtain.

[Camiie]

As for getting detailed responses about adjustments, maybe we should be happy that they do communicate to us in this format. SE is not obligated to do this, and just telling us every detail about the game opens up the doors to their trade secrets about their own product.

I'm not obligated to pay them a monthly fee for their game either. A good, smart business does more than it is "obligated" to in order to build trust and loyalty between itself and its customers. Where I live a retail store doesn't have to take returns at all under any circumstance, but they do. A business doesn't have to have a toll-free number, but many do. They don't have to have 24/7 customer support, but they do.

[Nala]

Yes, and the fact that you don't see why shows you understand very little of how games work. This is not looking for a hidden cave with secrets in it. This is information we need to play the game. Games are not designed for scientists, and you need to be a scientist to get many of these things right.

Also, there is a lot we don't know yet. For many things like Accuracy/Resist formulas, damage formulas for almost all kinds of damage, TH formula, etc. we only have approximations that took a considerable collaborative effort of many people to obtain.

More like mathematician either way, my point in bringing up stuff like the damage equation and the like is they bred a (relatively) smart player base, because we had to learn every minute detail on our own we know this game and its inner workings (well most of them anyhow) like the back of our hands as such trying to placate us with half assed and unspecific reasoning isn't fooling anyone.

I want to know the real reasons, adding new jobs to relics "no!" "why not?!" "because BALANCE" that's all i freaking see when we get "well we'd have to adjust the stats in order to blah blah BS..."

If it were really truly unbalanced like most of the other things you end up saying (you as in the dev team) give me a technical and LOGICAL break down as to why it must be so? like I said before you can't give a good reason as to why not, if you could I'd give away my anni (were it possible) for being wrong.

The other half of the matter by not providing their logic/reasoning or other technical jargon to support their claims it leaves no room to discuss (or argue if you choose to see it that way) and ultimately translates to "because we said no" FYI because without cause is one of my least favorite reasons.

[Chuk]

Yes, and the fact that you don't see why shows you understand very little of how games work. This is not looking for a hidden cave with secrets in it. This is information we need to play the game. Games are not designed for scientists, and you need to be a scientist to get many of these things right.

Also, there is a lot we don't know yet. For many things like Accuracy/Resist formulas, damage formulas for almost all kinds of damage, TH formula, etc. we only have approximations that took a considerable collaborative effort of many people to obtain.

So wait, you are already making an assumption of my gaming experience simply based on what I said? There is plenty I personally understand about this game. I have trained countless new players into what they are today, explored blue mage as a new job and did countless hours of research on effective play, have spent plenty of time onto play tactics and strategy, and with out knowing anything about me, already assume i know nothing. Please rethink that one, as i am not some newbie that just started playing yesterday. Need some sort of proof? March 2004 was my account activation. And yes, i have that Bradygames strategy guide. Man its fun to see how things have changed since then. But thanks for telling me i have no concept on how a game runs or is made. (also isnt such a post considered a personal attack? would think defamation of character applies here, but posting a reply is no better. Oh well.)

What im simply saying is everyone has an expectation, and balance is a real thing. The problem is the game is disbalanced, and if you really want to be heard, make suggestions to help change it. Need proof, just look at the grilled cheese sandwich. I was there when everyone laughed at the idea only because NO ONE ELSE wrote a question to the devs. Short of give everyone a relic, im sure they would have been open to other ideas. Until we all become developers for SE, its more in their hands than ours. The good news is there is light at then end of the tunnel, this game isnt written in stone like the countless other Final Fantasy game out there. Things can change, encourage the change instead of just spouting "yer doin it wrong". Without knowing every aspect of a very large game, its hard to say whats right and whats wrong. With that i will not be posting any more in this thread as i feel adding more beyond this would incite anger and frustration.

~Chuk

[Arcon]

So wait, you are already making an assumption of my gaming experience simply based on what I said?

Yes. I don't know you. What else can I judge you by other than by what you say?


There is plenty I personally understand about this game. I have trained countless new players into what they are today, explored blue mage as a new job and did countless hours of research on effective play, have spent plenty of time onto play tactics and strategy, and with out knowing anything about me, already assume i know nothing. Please rethink that one, as i am not some newbie that just started playing yesterday. Need some sort of proof? March 2004 was my account activation. And yes, i have that Bradygames strategy guide. Man its fun to see how things have changed since then. But thanks for telling me i have no concept on how a game runs or is made.

Thanks for the lesson. I don't care for any of it. I didn't say you don't know anything about FFXI, I said you don't know anything about games. That's because you seem to think that figuring out how a game works should be a part of it. I disagree.


(also isnt such a post considered a personal attack? would think deformation of character applies here, but posting a reply is no better. Oh well.)

It's criticism, and you're free to feel offended, but it isn't a personal attack. That would be an attack on your person, such as calling you stupid, which is not what I did. I made a simple implication based on what you said, namely that games should encourage exploration. But you seemed to miss the difference between in-game mystery (such as lore and land) and external mysteries (such as how you actually play the game), which is essential because external mysteries prevent games from being played properly. And games are designed to be played properly. Hence not knowing how to play them is a serious flaw in the game's design, thus you encouraging those external mysteries suggests that you don't know how games are supposed to work.

[Modoru]

Also, it's defamation, not deformation.

The more you know.™

[Chuk]

Also, it's defamation, not deformation.

The more you know.™

Thanks, didnt catch that one on the proof read. Ill fix that in a sec.

[Chuk]

Thanks for the lesson. I don't care for any of it. I didn't say you don't know anything about FFXI, I said you don't know anything about games. That's because you seem to think that figuring out how a game works should be a part of it. I disagree.



It's criticism, and you're free to feel offended, but it isn't a personal attack. That would be an attack on your person, such as calling you stupid, which is not what I did. I made a simple implication based on what you said, namely that games should encourage exploration. But you seemed to miss the difference between in-game mystery (such as lore and land) and external mysteries (such as how you actually play the game), which is essential because external mysteries prevent games from being played properly. And games are designed to be played properly. Hence not knowing how to play them is a serious flaw in the game's design, thus you encouraging those external mysteries suggests that you don't know how games are supposed to work.

Can't believe im about to bite on this one, but here goes.

So what your saying is i dont get that we dont know how to play the game? First off, Instruction Manual. ALL copies of this game that i own came with one. Second off, experimentation is the very source of a game. Are you telling me that i should be faulted for not knowing whats in a game before i play it? This is quite baseless, since exploration is 100% of what gaming is. Lemme me put it into context for you. We all know Super Mario Brothers. We know that when you jump on a goomba, he dies. Its irrelevant to know that the game assigns a flag to a memory point to switch from ON to OFF to show the goomba died. Instead, we see that via experimenting that the goomba is dead because, well, we jumped on him. In no way shape or form do i need to know how the game figures it out, i just need to know that jumping on the enemy is a good thing. All games share this trial and error basis. And not once does knowing exactly how the game calculates everything impact the fact that you are going to try or not try. Via trial and error, we will keep trying different tactics to figure out how to win at the game we are playing. As for not knowing how to play a game, really instruction manuals, tutorials, and even friends and other players are and always will be the leading force on how to play said games. Need more proof? E.T. the Extra Terrestrial says sup. A game with the poorest documentaion and worst control scheme has been figured out and beaten, not because the guy who wrote the game said how it works, but because people with good ole fashion trial and error sat down and played the game till they figured it out.

Also, implying something is about as good as just flat out saying so. And last i checked, i have no problems controlling my character and getting things done in FFXI or any other game for that matter.

[Ritsuka]

It probably was an excuse, but it's true that (especially in japan) there are a considerable amount of players who are against the excessive gearswaps the game "requires" from the playerbase nowadays, especially for some jobs.

An idle set, a regen set, a refresh set, a movement speed set, a PDT set, an MDT set, a precast set, a postcast set, nuke set, debuffset, DD set, ws set, blah blah and countless variations of these sets.


It sure got to levels on a different scale compared to, say, the situation 5 years ago. This is for several reasons. I can think of the playerbase "growing up" and wishing to furtherly tweak their performance in-game, and because of SE offering countless new options of gear which are way too situational and can be used only for a couple of things.
This is especially evident for mage jobs.
I'm a complete mage noob, yet the amount of gear I have for my SCH and the amount of swaps I do gives me the headache.
Thinking about all the people who do that without spellcast just enhances these thoughts. (I don't, for instance)

So yeah, it's not just a couple of players, a considerable amount of players are against gearswapping.
As for my position I dunno, I'm a "slave" to the system of course, but while I really like a certain amount of gear swap, I also do think that nowadays' levels have definitely passed the line of acceptability, we really have too many situational pieces with very limited use. Some jobs are constantly swapping, it can understand some people getting annoyed by that.
Still, this is not something that can be fixed, it's too late, and certainly they cannot "fix" it by giving replies such as the one you mentioned, which is absolutely ridiculous of course.


I think i remember reading some where that Square never intended people to do gear swiping with macro's. its just something ppl started to do to get nice damage with their job

[Slaxx]

I've heard the same thing about gear swapping, usually from Rosina or others like her. The fact is I have NEVER seen anything to back it up. Until someone can quote an actual SE source saying they never intended gear swapping that's just another rumor. The fact is gear swapping has been the norm for better players since I started at PS2 launch (and I'm sure well before that as well). Not everyone does it, but if you don't, you're holding back not only yourself, but those who play with you.

PS Even if such a source were quoted and verified it wouldn't change the fact that not gear swapping (even using the limited in-game system) means you are performing sub-optimally. Can you really say that SE meant for people to TP in Hecatomb equipment?

[Caketime]

Yes. I don't know you. What else can I judge you by other than by what you say?

This made me lol significantly. Rest of the post was p. much garbage though, cry moar son.

[Kitkat]

.....most recent post......

Just to clarify why people don't agree with you: Most of us may have looked at the game and said "hey cool, a game to play with others in a genre I enjoy playing" and exploration was possibly the first few months ~ year we played. Then we all realized that we don't have hours to spend figuring out the vague dialogue in the quest objectives in order to complete a quest or find gear/drops we need. Additionally, rather than have every person try to figure out each mechanic individually until they understand just what it all does, we seek out information.

That being said, if you want to spend the time to get that "a whole new world" feeling out of the game then go ahead, but understand there are many players that just don't have the time for it. We have very few hours a day, sometimes every other day or only 1-2 times a week, and rather than spend that little bit of time figuring it all out, or exploring, we would much rather get it done and over with so we can enjoy other parts of the game with friends/ls/randomwtfpeople.

So, while your argument holds some weight, it is a "new feeling" that quickly wears off and ends up more an annoyance/nuance when the lack of information is supposed to be the "premises" of a game. On another note, try looking at just about any other MMO that has been out for more than a few months and you'll find that they all have similar sites with information. In a world where knowledge is power, those who can will wield it and succeed, while those who don't will fumble, trip, and fall until they learn.

[Luvbunny]

Yup for those who love being befuddled, confused and utterly in the dark seeking exploring and hoping to solve the vague puzzle of information, congrats to you. That is one way to play the game - and get your sense of achievement for wasting hours of your time to solve inane puzzles. The rest of us open wiki, look at feedback of other players, do our checklist and be done way much faster. Why bother trying to "figure it out" when all the information and instruction is right there for you to use and save yourself some headache. As always the options are there, SE does not force you to do one or the other.

[Chuk]

Sorry to confuse, but im not against people looking things up or community discussion, wiki is a fine thing. In that case you are simply doing what others have figured out and have communally left behind so other players can see how it was done. My original post was in response to the overwhelming demand to be told how everything works by the developers. The idea of exploring a games mechanics and layout is the whole point to gaming. If you knew how a book series ended, would you read the book? You certainly dont ask the author how it ends, they want you to explore their work and enjoy that experience. Video games are no different. I understand limited play time, ever since i started this MMO i have worked full time and always seek to maximize my playtime. But that doesnt mean i should rely on what others say just to play this game, half the fun is the journey. If you simply did everything you were told, life would be dull. Read 1984 by George Orwell. Thats the kind of future i dont want for FFXI.

Also the only thing im nostalgic about in FFXI is the community. Before the wiki, people really did discuss things like gear swaping, subjob advantages, and quests. And i seriously doubt everyone has explored every inch of the game. So until then, you really havent seen everything. If the fresh feeling of exploration has worn off with you, then tHats a clear sign you are not having fun with this game any more.

[FrankReynolds]

Chuk, you clearly didn't understand what Arcon said about how games work, or what the OP means when they say we want explanations. You would probably agree with some of what they are saying if you understood it fully. I think you are just a little confused about what everyone is pissed about. Which is understandable. That's the problem with written conversations. The tones of speech often convey more than the words themselves.

People aren't asking to know all the secrets. We just want honest answers from the reps. They ask for feedback on things and we give it to them, and then they refuse the feedback, but give no explanation other than "balance".

It's like asking someone what flavor ice cream they want, Then giving them the opposite. When they ask why you gave them something different you say "because". That person wants to feed you the cone backwards (your wrong end, not the cone).

But if you said "because I saw the guy drop a dirty towel in that flavor ice cream when he was cleaning...", then the person would thank you for choosing something different for them.

The problem is (I suspect anyways) that the devs probably didn't see a guy drop a dirty towel. They just didn't care what you wanted.

[Arcon]

The idea of exploring a games mechanics and layout is the whole point to gaming.

So the idea behind poker is to figure out what the rules are? That's like saying "the point of shooters is to figure out how to shoot people". Which is blatantly false. The point of games is not figuring out how to play them but to actually play them.


If the fresh feeling of exploration has worn off with you, then tHats a clear sign you are not having fun with this game any more.

Bullshit. Stop telling me what's fun to me, you don't get to decide that. I know pretty much everything the entire community knows about the game, which is a lot. And I'm still enjoying it. Every other game I've ever known I knew exactly how to play and how it worked, and I still enjoy them. Exploring lore is one thing, exploring game mechanics is an entirely other thing. If you really believe any of what you just said you don't want a game at all, you want a sight-seeing tour. And as soon as you've seen everything you wanna move on to the next.

Let me ask you this: Why are you still playing? I honestly don't get it. Are you trying to figure out the pDIF formula in secret? Are you killing hordes of lizards to get the TH formula? What exactly is it that you are exploring?

[Zhronne]

I think i remember reading some where that Square never intended people to do gear swiping with macro's. its just something ppl started to do to get nice damage with their job
I remember them saying that but if you want to know what I think about it, I'd say that it sounds to me more like an excuse to avoid developing >6 lines macros, rather than what they really think.

They say that in interviews, but then they act in a completely different way when they develop updates (and new gear). Sounds to me they are lying.
If they really didn't want people to swapgear or wanted to limit it, they could have implemented countless of very easy method to block such behaviour or at least limit it.

[Zhronne]

And about the "players finding out things on their own" topic.
I have to say that I'm fine with SE leaving a certain amount of things for us to find out. It's one of FFXI's peculiarities and one of the many aspects that make this game so different from everything else.
Fine with me.

Point is that they should balance in a much better way the amount of things we have to find out from the amount of things they tell us. This is completely off-balance atm and has always been.
If you want to let us sort things out give us 3-6 months and then clear things up for us.
Give us something to sort out and give us something for which you spill all the details.


In the past they didn't do it because of a different japanese approach. It was pretty common back then to have separate entities to publish very specific guides for FFXI with detailed data and "answers" coming up directly from SE.
So basically SE wasn't telling us (the player base) a lot of things because they were selling these information to other companies, who were then putting them into books and selling them to the public (only in japan).
It was a tuned mechanism, and it could only work if SE kept all their "secrets" for themselves.

Such a mechanism stopped working long time ago, it's time SE starts releasing accurate data in a more detailed way and more often.
You wanna give us some time to sort things out on our own before spilling? Fine.
You want a few things to remain a secret and us to "adventure" into seeking the truth? Fine.
But fucking to do it for 99% of the things in game! That is completely off balance, really

[Nala]

Think you're misunderstanding in which capacity i wish to know about. We really do not need SE to tell us things like the damage equation or the hidden effects of X vw weapon, what i want is detailed answers to support the constant "Balance" and like answers.

Considering we can beat PW and AV due to level cap increases and other abilities added if i had to ask one unsolved mystery it would be what was the "proper" way to defeat these entities.

[Caketime]

Bullshit. Stop telling me what's fun to me, you don't get to decide that.


But Batman, you're dictating what's fun at him, so doesn't that mean you're speaking hypocritically? Now you have to hug each other. Don't be shy now.

[Demon6324236]

Think you're misunderstanding in which capacity i wish to know about. We really do not need SE to tell us things like the damage equation or the hidden effects of X vw weapon, what i want is detailed answers to support the constant "Balance" and like answers.

Considering we can beat PW and AV due to level cap increases and other abilities added if i had to ask one unsolved mystery it would be what was the "proper" way to defeat these entities.

Bet ya if you /cheer as AV kills your party members it makes him weaker, and you just have to use /clap when PW uses Hellclap to mess him up, because he doesn't expect you to clap along! And why is this? Just because hidden emote powers are so cool! ;>_>

[Arcon]

But Batman, you're dictating what's fun at him, so doesn't that mean you're speaking hypocritically?

No, I'm not, so no, it's not hypocrisy. I don't expect you to understand kid, let the big guys talk.

[Caketime]

You told Chuk that he can't dictate what's fun to you, but then you attempt to do the same to him. Call me a child all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you're not only contradicting yourself, you're also being a huge whiner that feels he's entitled to every little facet of technical data the game has to offer. The truth is though, the devs have the right to tell you whatever the hell they want in regards to how the game works, up to and including nothing at all.

[Demon6324236]

You told Chuk that he can't dictate what's fun to you, but then you attempt to do the same to him. Call me a child all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you're not only contradicting yourself, you're also being a huge whiner that feels he's entitled to every little facet of technical data the game has to offer. The truth is though, the devs have the right to tell you whatever the hell they want in regards to how the game works, up to and including nothing at all.

Just because you can do something does not make it good or right. Companies are getting that idea that they can do whatever they want all over the place, and its hurting gaming as a whole, so lets not go down that path. SE made alot of things in this game, they keep alot of info from us, we figure things out on our own alot however so thats not such a problem. But to tell us everything we want can not be done because of "balance" or a reason with little to no explanation is somewhat insulting, its not that we are unable to understand their reasons, we want to know what they are.

Everyone has had one of those very annoying moments when something you want is denied, but when you asked why, you got told simply, because. Its not a reason, its annoying and insulting, we wish to know why, that is all we ask, not balance, but a real answer that tells us why, with detail.

[Arcon]

You told Chuk that he can't dictate what's fun to you, but then you attempt to do the same to him.

I didn't. Never. I said he has the definition of "game" wrong. If he enjoys doing this stuff, all power to him. And guess what, I actually enjoy it too, within reason. I did a lot of testing on a lot of things, and figuring this stuff out is fun to me, but that does not mean it's what this game is supposed to be.


Call me a child all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you're not only contradicting yourself, you're also being a huge whiner that feels he's entitled to every little facet of technical data the game has to offer.

I'm calling you a child because you're incoherent and you don't know how to argue. You say I'm contradicting myself but don't bring any arguments for it. You call me whining that I'm not getting every detail, when that was never what I said or wanted. You either have a reading comprehension disability, or you're just stubborn and don't know how to argue properly. I always assume the latter unless I have sufficient proof that the person I'm talking to is stupid enough to assume the former.


The truth is though, the devs have the right to tell you whatever the hell they want in regards to how the game works, up to and including nothing at all.

I know. I don't intend to sue them for fraud or anything. This is a request for them to loosen up a bit about the details. We're not bitching because we feel entitled. We're asking because it would make playing the game a more enjoyable experience. Kids are usually not aware of the difference between the two things, so I don't blame you for confusing them.

[Waldrich]

Can't believe im about to bite on this one, but here goes.

So what your saying is i dont get that we dont know how to play the game? First off, Instruction Manual. ALL copies of this game that i own came with one. Second off, experimentation is the very source of a game. Are you telling me that i should be faulted for not knowing whats in a game before i play it? This is quite baseless, since exploration is 100% of what gaming is. Lemme me put it into context for you. We all know Super Mario Brothers. We know that when you jump on a goomba, he dies. Its irrelevant to know that the game assigns a flag to a memory point to switch from ON to OFF to show the goomba died. Instead, we see that via experimenting that the goomba is dead because, well, we jumped on him. In no way shape or form do i need to know how the game figures it out, i just need to know that jumping on the enemy is a good thing. All games share this trial and error basis. And not once does knowing exactly how the game calculates everything impact the fact that you are going to try or not try. Via trial and error, we will keep trying different tactics to figure out how to win at the game we are playing. As for not knowing how to play a game, really instruction manuals, tutorials, and even friends and other players are and always will be the leading force on how to play said games. Need more proof? E.T. the Extra Terrestrial says sup. A game with the poorest documentaion and worst control scheme has been figured out and beaten, not because the guy who wrote the game said how it works, but because people with good ole fashion trial and error sat down and played the game till they figured it out.

Also, implying something is about as good as just flat out saying so. And last i checked, i have no problems controlling my character and getting things done in FFXI or any other game for that matter.

You prove to Square Enix why they can keep this kind of attitude going, thanks go to....

[Luvbunny]

This is a request for them to loosen up a bit about the details. We're not bitching because we feel entitled. We're asking because it would make playing the game a more enjoyable experience.

Totally agree with this statement. The developers should focus on making the game more enjoyable and not befuddled us with vague and misleading information. Though if you look at their patterns, usually it always goes like this - they release new contents with hardly any information so that the freaks who pride in solving the "challenging" content get their bragging rights and can prance around with their new loot. Then they slowly release more info, and make that said content less challenging by introducing some sort of easy mode button, this way everyone else who is sane enough can just go hit easy button and be done with.

[Sparthos]

Where is the Legion "easy button"?

[Fupafighter]

Where is the Legion "easy button"?
The Sch's and Smn's possess it.

[Sparthos]

The Sch's and Smn's possess it.

Fielding SCHs and SMNs does not make for insta-wins.

It just means that you don't get vaporized in the first 5mins of the run.

[Chuk]

Well i plan on making this short. Yes i understand what Nala's original arguement is. Unfortunately, my counterstance on it still holds as well. The development team ultimately gets to decide on what they want to respond to, and how to respond about it. Notice, not a single community rep or otherwise has yet to post in this thread. Its definately a hot topic, but im sure their avoiding it for all the right reasons. In fact, im actually expecting a GM to end up locking this thread because everyone is jumping on each other over much of nothing.

As for Arcon, take a step back and please stop using name calling and less than proper language towards others. I am willing to debate with you, but resorting to those methods is very discouraging for an adult conversation. As for your view on the definition of game, i thought i would look up a useful definition for it. Miriam-Webster, a leading dictionary of the english language, has this to say about "game". (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/game) Do i understand what a game is and how it works? Of course! As do plenty of other people who enjoy this type of entertainment. But at the same time I will counter your poker arguement.

If you sit at a poker table in a casino, it doesnt mater if you know the rules or not. Now someone who would choose to do so might think "Hey i should learn how to play before jumping in! Real money is at stake, i would hate to throw it away because i dont understand how to play!" So you research the game. You ask the dealer at an empty table to teach you how to play poker. They explain that you win with certain combinations of cards, they explain how to place a bet, the tell you the rules to each turn. Now you can play poker! But whats this? Some guy at the other table is beating you? Hey how did he beat me with a pair of 2s! I had three 5s! Oh wait, i folded. That is because you need to explore how to use the rules to achieve your objective. You never learned about bluffing from dealer. But if you asked your friends, they might have given you a heads up on the strategy part. And even then, you still need experience to determine what strategy works for you and how you plan to win. Thats exploration of a game. I couldnt define it any more detailed than that. When you play a game, your obligated to learn how to play it first. And even then, you dont have to know how to play a game without training. It just helps to learn so you can achieve victory.

As for telling you what is fun for you, do me and everyone else a favor. Define what makes this fun for you. Tell us what keeps you playing FFXI. For me its pretty easy, im not done with the game yet. Theres still a handful of hurdles and quests for me to do. A few more stories to experience. A few more fights for me to declare victory in. And even then, its going to be sad the day i do stop playing. The very memories and great times i have had with friends will be difficult to reproduce. But my friends will still be my friends, and we will make new memories when we move on to the next game. And for the record, it is a sight-seeing tour. I really hope this game isnt a chore or job to you, that doesnt sound like fun at all.

[Sparthos]

Funny you mention grouping up with friends and trying to learn the game by putting the pieces together because that is exactly what the playerbase has done over the years to reach the level of knowledge it possesses on certain topics like damage formulas, potential of job classes and strategies able to be deployed in the events released by SE. The problem is that SE isn't willing to meet players halfway when it comes to inquiries on certain aspects of FFXI.

For instance, the DEF DOWN on the weaponskill Tachi: Ageha was formulated by the players to be potent enough to put into standard play for SAMs after adequate testing resulted in favorable results. However shortly after this testing was concluded the accuracy of this weaponskill either is broken or was intentionally changed for "balance" reasons.

Where is the SE response on this? A similar fate also fell upon BLU spells with added effects. Is this intentional? accidental? will it be rectified?

Further, the arguements from SE regarding "balance" often have little sense or explanation behind them when players point out detailed issues with a class. For instance I've always argued that BST has little to no point at the endgame and that would be a great time for SE to explain to us what their vision of certain classes in an endgame setting. Instead of harping on about 'balance' - give us some examples of how PUP, BST, RDM, RNG, NIN or PLD are supposed to be played from the viewpoint of the developers. Give us some math behind why Annihilator would be unbalanced for COR, school the player on the reason why certain changes would damage the game and go into DETAILS. That's what people want.

Of course this would just be SEs opinion on the matter but it'd mean they'd have do more than simply make unilateral statements that are summarily destroyed by anyone with more than a fundamental understanding of the classes in FFXI.

This is what Balance amounts to as it stands:

B - bullshit
A - aimed
L - largely
A - at
N - negating
C - constructive
E - endeavors

[Demon6324236]

Funny you mention grouping up with friends and trying to learn the game by putting the pieces together because that is exactly what the playerbase has done over the years to reach the level of knowledge it possesses on certain topics like damage formulas, potential of job classes and strategies able to be deployed in the events released by SE. The problem is that SE isn't willing to meet players halfway when it comes to inquiries on certain aspects of FFXI.

For instance, the DEF DOWN on the weaponskill Tachi: Ageha was formulated by the players to be potent enough to put into standard play for SAMs after adequate testing resulted in favorable results. However shortly after this testing was concluded the accuracy of this weaponskill either is broken or was intentionally changed for "balance" reasons.

Where is the SE response on this? A similar fate also fell upon BLU spells with added effects. Is this intentional? accidental? will it be rectified?

Further, the arguements from SE regarding "balance" often have little sense or explanation behind them when players point out detailed issues with a class. For instance I've always argued that BST has little to no point at the endgame and that would be a great time for SE to explain to us what their vision of certain classes in an endgame setting. Instead of harping on about 'balance' - give us some examples of how PUP, BST, RDM, RNG, NIN or PLD are supposed to be played from the viewpoint of the developers. Give us some math behind why Annihilator would be unbalanced for COR, school the player on the reason why certain changes would damage the game and go into DETAILS. That's what people want.

Of course this would just be SEs opinion on the matter but it'd mean they'd have do more than simply make unilateral statements that are summarily destroyed by anyone with more than a fundamental understanding of the classes in FFXI.I agree with you on this.


This is what Balance amounts to as it stands:

B - bullshit
A - aimed
L - largely
A - at
N - negating
C - constructive
E - endeavors

This is one of the most epic things I have ever seen, and I love how correct it is :D

[Nala]

Well i plan on making this short. Yes i understand what Nala's original arguement is. Unfortunately, my counterstance on it still holds as well. The development team ultimately gets to decide on what they want to respond to, and how to respond about it. Notice, not a single community rep or otherwise has yet to post in this thread. Its definately a hot topic, but im sure their avoiding it for all the right reasons. In fact, im actually expecting a GM to end up locking this thread because everyone is jumping on each other over much of nothing.

...


If you sit at a poker table in a casino, it doesnt mater if you know the rules or not. Now someone who would choose to do so might think "Hey i should learn how to play before jumping in! Real money is at stake, i would hate to throw it away because i dont understand how to play!" So you research the game. You ask the dealer at an empty table to teach you how to play poker. They explain that you win with certain combinations of cards, they explain how to place a bet, the tell you the rules to each turn. Now you can play poker! But whats this? Some guy at the other table is beating you? Hey how did he beat me with a pair of 2s! I had three 5s! Oh wait, i folded. That is because you need to explore how to use the rules to achieve your objective. You never learned about bluffing from dealer. But if you asked your friends, they might have given you a heads up on the strategy part. And even then, you still need experience to determine what strategy works for you and how you plan to win. Thats exploration of a game. I couldnt define it any more detailed than that. When you play a game, your obligated to learn how to play it first. And even then, you dont have to know how to play a game without training. It just helps to learn so you can achieve victory.

As for telling you what is fun for you, do me and everyone else a favor. Define what makes this fun for you. Tell us what keeps you playing FFXI. For me its pretty easy, im not done with the game yet. Theres still a handful of hurdles and quests for me to do. A few more stories to experience. A few more fights for me to declare victory in. And even then, its going to be sad the day i do stop playing. The very memories and great times i have had with friends will be difficult to reproduce. But my friends will still be my friends, and we will make new memories when we move on to the next game. And for the record, it is a sight-seeing tour. I really hope this game isnt a chore or job to you, that doesnt sound like fun at all.

This thread will not receive a Dev team responce, it does not address anything specific to the game, my only hope is that the conversation itself is relayed, and while this may ultimately be a game it is also a SERVICE, as such the company providing service is responsible to its customers especially in meeting their needs/wants.

Unfortunately the nature of an MMO has us as addicts, honestly i've been tempted to quit in protest on several occasions but i owe many things to my linkshell and friends and honestly it shouldn't take a mass exodus from the game to bring a wake up call to the Dev bros, WTH are these forums for in that case?

Quit it with the poker analogy, there is no money at stake here other then your service fee, how well you play/learn how to play and how much of the game you do or do not utilize will not effect how much that service fee will be each month nor are you obligated to play in any manner of fashion.

I can understand your point about learning from experience but your analogy fails to compare, the way the game has been so far we had to learn hand hierarchy by repeatedly playing poker blind, never mind the strategies we didn't even know the rules, yeah with time we are supposed to learn what works and what doesn't, when to bluff, fold, ect. but experience and learning the rules are separate.

In any case I have no idea why you even got into that aspect of the conversation this thread is not (supposed) to be about them suddenly revealing the magic mystery of the mythical TH, I want a wake up call to the dev team in two manners 1: Because (balance/limitations/ect.) is not an answer, 2: we are smart enough to call you on your bs, so stop bs'n us and provide some actual reasons beyond because.

[Luvbunny]

Where is the Legion "easy button"?

The content is barely a year old, wait for a bit lol. They usually add the easy button around a year after said content is introduced, and sooner if everyone just start complaining about it. They already adjusted the monster HP for 18 people alliance. But yeah definitely need more easy button on neo nyzul, neo einherjar and legion. Unless the developer loves being boneheaded again - which does not bode well for the future direction of this game.

[Theytak]

What's sad is that the reason SE doesn't clarify what they mean when they say something would "go against balance" or when they give some sort of nonsensical gibberish and pretend it's a logical reason they can't do something, it's not done because we wouldn't actually be able to understand their logic/reasoning anyway, but rather, it's done because we would understand it, and we would be able to quickly prove their logic faulty and/or entirely fallacious. I imagine the usual process goes something like this:

"Hey guys, the players say they want you to do [random incredibly helpful thing we've needed done for years]"
"Hmmm, as nice as that would be for them, we can't, because it would negatively impact [random completely arbitrary issue that a sudden change in would not actually negatively or positively impact the game in any way] because of [spaghetti code/ps2 limitations/some other silly reason], so we can't."
"Well, yea, but we can't tell them that, they'd know it's a load of horseshit in a second and riot on us..."
"Let's flip a coin. Heads, we tell them we're 'thinking about it, but it's not a very high priority,' tails we tell them 'While we understand why the players would like this, we feel that it would unbalance [some other random thing, completely unrelated to the actual issue, but related to the proposed change], and that's something we'd like to avoid.'"
*the coin is flipped*
"Looks like it's tails. Go ahead and give the reps our 'answer' so we can move on to something more important. Who's up for a Tetra Master Tourney?"


This is what Balance amounts to as it stands:

B - bullshit
A - aimed
L - largely
A - at
N - negating
C - constructive
E - endeavors

So... perfect...

[Luvbunny]

LOL totally agree with you on this. I mean granted they have been operating in a bare bones crew in the past few years, and you cannot do much with the little resource they have. I am at least glad they churned out these many updates in the past few years. I know it's hard to please everyone. When those abyssea haters complaint on how easy it is to get rewarded and suddenly everyone in the same level playing field, they gave us Voidwatch. These same people yet complaint again that it is random luck based, now not everyone is getting it, it is not fair blah blah blah. They revamped Walk of Echoes, still the same people complaint it is too accessible, and nobody but the japanese actually do this event. They gave us Legion which is like very old school, the same people complaint it is too hard. All the neo contents released, no one else touched it since you have to cheat to win them somehow, lol. Now we are back at Abyssea and Voidwatch again.

[Arcon]

Unfortunately, my counterstance on it still holds as well. The development team ultimately gets to decide on what they want to respond to, and how to respond about it. Notice, not a single community rep or otherwise has yet to post in this thread. Its definately a hot topic, but im sure their avoiding it for all the right reasons.

That's not an argument at all. We're aware that the development team gets to decide that. The development team gets to decide everything. Does that mean we can't make suggestions? What's the point of these forums then? You can go into every thread ever and complain that people shouldn't suggest anything, because ultimately it's all up to SE.

And you can't possibly be sure for why they're not replying, because they rarely reply to anything. And we don't particularly care for a reply. This is not a specific suggestion to change some feature or something similar. This is just a general suggestion of what direction we'd like the game to go into. It would be hard to reply to this in the first place. We mainly want them to notice it, and hopefully consider it in their future game design and development.


As for Arcon, take a step back and please stop using name calling and less than proper language towards others. I am willing to debate with you, but resorting to those methods is very discouraging for an adult conversation.

Like what? Because I called what you said bullshit? I did that because it was bullshit, it was objectively false and I gave an explanation for why. I don't remember saying anything else. I'm not trying to be offensive, and if you still get offended the issue may be with you.


If you sit at a poker table in a casino, it doesnt mater if you know the rules or not. Now someone who would choose to do so might think "Hey i should learn how to play before jumping in! Real money is at stake, i would hate to throw it away because i dont understand how to play!" So you research the game. You ask the dealer at an empty table to teach you how to play poker. They explain that you win with certain combinations of cards, they explain how to place a bet, the tell you the rules to each turn. Now you can play poker! But whats this? Some guy at the other table is beating you? Hey how did he beat me with a pair of 2s! I had three 5s! Oh wait, i folded. That is because you need to explore how to use the rules to achieve your objective. You never learned about bluffing from dealer. But if you asked your friends, they might have given you a heads up on the strategy part. And even then, you still need experience to determine what strategy works for you and how you plan to win. Thats exploration of a game. I couldnt define it any more detailed than that. When you play a game, your obligated to learn how to play it first. And even then, you dont have to know how to play a game without training. It just helps to learn so you can achieve victory.

That is exactly what I said. You're now fully supporting my argument. Knowing the rules is equivalent to knowing the game mechanics. Applying the rules and learning how to be good within their confines is gameplay. The first needs to be known so the game can be played. Everything after that is exploration.

When I say I wanna know how the game works, I mean I actually wanna know the mechanics involved. It means I want to know which piece of gear does what exactly. Because right now we don't know. Once we know that, it does not mean we get everything handed to us. It means now the game can begin: we need to figure out which gear is best to used for which situation, which buffs are best used, trying to make strategies around different setups, and so on. That is what the game is.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. Do you remember when Lv75 Paladins used to wear Phalanx Rings? They got laughed at and didn't even know why. That's because DEF+10 looks great on paper. Only they didn't know. Because no one told them how useless DEF is. Now you'd think DEF is to defense what Attack is to offense. That's a fairly logical assumption, no? But you'd be wrong again.

I'll give you more examples. People underestimated Haste a lot. Why? They thought it made them faster (which sounds reasonable, going by the name), but that's incorrect. It reduces their delay. And that is a very crucial difference in damage output. It makes Haste+80% be as effective as Haste+500% if it just increased your speed. Only people would never know that without doing actual research and make an effort to determine this. They'd play the game under false assumptions because it's not clear what the stats do.

There's countless other examples like that. VIT/STR myths? Treasure Hunter? Different Haste categories? And don't even get me started on gear we still don't know what the fuck it's supposed to do (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Goetia_Gloves_%2B2), even though it's been out for a long time now.

Or to put it back into the poker analogy: we can't make proper strategies and decisions without knowing how the game works. With FFXI we're not told how it works. A large part of it was figured out by players. A large part of it is still trying to be figured out by players, with little success.


As for telling you what is fun for you, do me and everyone else a favor. Define what makes this fun for you. Tell us what keeps you playing FFXI.

Playing the game. I like doing events like Einherjar (old and new), Limbus (old and new), Assaults, Salvage and Legion. I like solo efforts, trying if I can beat certain NMs on THF or SMN or whatever I feel like at the moment. I also like helping people out. Farming Abyssea for items, helping with limit breaks and mission fights and whatnot. I have an active LS with friends in it whom I get to talk to.

Is that surprising? I thought this was what literally everyone played for (with a different choice of events, maybe).


For me its pretty easy, im not done with the game yet. Theres still a handful of hurdles and quests for me to do. A few more stories to experience. A few more fights for me to declare victory in.

So basically the same as me. And none of what you said involved exploring how the game works. You're just talking about exploring the lore and the land, not game mechanics. It seems everything you say agrees with what I say completely, but you just don't want to admit to it.


And for the record, it is a sight-seeing tour.

A sight-seeing tour is not interactive. A movie is something you take in. A book is something you take in. A song is something you take in. Games aren't. Games require interaction. You need to make your own experience. That's not a sight-seeing tour. I've done Odin a ton of times. I don't think there's anything I haven't seen from him. I've seen all his TP moves, all his valkyries' TP moves and all the loot he has to offer. But I'm still not done with him.

If it was a sight-seeing tour, doing anything more than once would be a waste. A sight-seeing tour only showers you with information. That's why it doesn't compare and never will. Because this is not about "knowing about it", this is about "playing it". I know lots about lots of the game and I still do it, because fun is not only in the story, but also in the execution of the gameplay. Cutscenes are sight-seeing tours. And if I've seen it before I usually skip it. But the fight that follows isn't, no matter how often you do it.


I really hope this game isnt a chore or job to you, that doesnt sound like fun at all.

Take note, because this is important: everyone plays the game because it's fun. No matter what they do. I could never understand why people EXP. It seems like a tedious chore to me. But people do enjoy it. And what's wrong with that? I never once judged what you consider fun, please stop saying that. But you do judge what other people consider fun. You said that you hope the game isn't a chore to me. How condescending. Why do you care if it is? You think you're better than others if they play something that sounds boring to you? What's a chore to you may be fun for someone else. I don't judge you for that, never did. And neither should you.

[FrankReynolds]

To put this in laymen terms:

If I walk into every single thread and say " You can't do that. It would mess up the game." and rarely, if ever offer any explanation as to why, other than "balance suckaz!" - Players will report me for adding nothing to the thread and generally trying to instigate a flame war. I will be temp banned.

Yet if a community rep / dev / ceo waltzes into the pup thread labeled "please add more spells to X frame" and says "hey guys! just wanted to let you know that we aren't adding a new ranged attack attachment because BaRaNcE!" (note that this info is not related to the discussion).

Somehow this is okay?...

That is the problem.

Not only are most of the posts only vaguely related to the topic of discussion, but they are almost always so vague that they cause massive amounts of unnecessary confusion and debate.

[Modoru]

Don't forget they're on vay-cay~

[Camiie]

Don't forget they're on vay-cay~

They must be on a constant vacation then because it's no different than when they're supposedly in the office.

[Caketime]

I didn't. Never. I said he has the definition of "game" wrong. If he enjoys doing this stuff, all power to him. And guess what, I actually enjoy it too, within reason. I did a lot of testing on a lot of things, and figuring this stuff out is fun to me, but that does not mean it's what this game is supposed to be.

How can you even say any of these things? This is not your game, you just play it. Like it or not, that's the way it is. The developers have always been vague about how things function, it's what they do. They're providing you with a service and you're asking for proprietary information that you have no right to.



I'm calling you a child because you're incoherent and you don't know how to argue. You say I'm contradicting myself but don't bring any arguments for it. You call me whining that I'm not getting every detail, when that was never what I said or wanted. You either have a reading comprehension disability, or you're just stubborn and don't know how to argue properly. I always assume the latter unless I have sufficient proof that the person I'm talking to is stupid enough to assume the former.

I'm guessing you wanted me to quote your posts in more detail and point out exactly where you're whining, but your posts are just so full of tears I don't know where to begin. They also contain a lot of condescending comments implying that others around you are either children or less intelligent than yourself, take a look if you don't believe me. Is that what makes you good at arguing, imagining that you're arguing with a child? Hmm.




I know. I don't intend to sue them for fraud or anything. This is a request for them to loosen up a bit about the details. We're not bitching because we feel entitled. We're asking because it would make playing the game a more enjoyable experience. Kids are usually not aware of the difference between the two things, so I don't blame you for confusing them.

You can't always get what you want~
You can't always get what you want~
No you can't always get what you want~
But if you try sometime, you just might find
You'll get what you need~

[Arcon]

How can you even say any of these things? This is not your game, you just play it. Like it or not, that's the way it is. The developers have always been vague about how things function, it's what they do. They're providing you with a service and you're asking for proprietary information that you have no right to.

My reply to this is in my last paragraph that you quoted. Consult that for further reference.


I'm guessing you wanted me to quote your posts in more detail and point out exactly where you're whining, but your posts are just so full of tears I don't know where to begin.

At least you know when to concede.


They also contain a lot of condescending comments implying that others around you are either children or less intelligent than yourself, take a look if you don't believe me. Is that what makes you good at arguing, imagining that you're arguing with a child? Hmm.

Duh. I never disputed that I was condescending towards you. I'm like that towards snotty brats. Your random and overly zealous use of memes (even in your username) and shameful attempts at trolling suggest that you're either mentally challenged or a child, because no one else actually thinks that's funny. As I said in the quoted section, I'd hate to assume the first, so out of politeness I assume the latter.


You can't always get what you want~
You can't always get what you want~
No you can't always get what you want~
But if you try sometime, you just might find
You'll get what you need~

Exactly.

[Demon6324236]

You can't always get what you want~
You can't always get what you want~
No you can't always get what you want~
But if you try sometime, you just might find
You'll get what you need~

What do we want? GEO/RNF to use Emp/Relic weapons.
What do we need? The reason why balance prevents this.
This may not be the exact topic here but it an example, we know what we want, but we need a reason why, or else it seems like complete and utter BS to us, and we just assume the devs are to lazy or foolish to be able to implement what we are asking for. More than 75% of the time when we are told no about something we want, our reason is balance, we need a real honest to god answer to set our minds at rest however.

[FrankReynolds]

How can you even say any of these things? This is not your game, you just play it. Like it or not, that's the way it is. The developers have always been vague about how things function, it's what they do. They're providing you with a service and you're asking for proprietary information that you have no right to.

You can't always get what you want~
You can't always get what you want~
No you can't always get what you want~
But if you try sometime, you just might find
You'll get what you need~

Did you really just break out in song during an argument to prove that your not a child? Never mind, don't answer that.

This is not proprietary information that we are asking for. No one is asking for game code so that they can go build a test server. We'r asking about things that have to do with game play. If I ask EA why I can't throw a 110 MPH curve ball in their latest baseball game, their gonna say "Because that's a stupid fast curve ball and no one will be able to hit it. That would be crazy." They aren't going to go "Because if we did that it would affect the hot dog vendors in the stands. Balance! herpaderp.".

When we ask why dnc isn't on mandau, we get "We would have to make it weaker for all the jobs.".

That explanation is intentionally vague and suggests that there really is no reason, so they made one up. If it wasn't BS, they would have said "We would have to make it weaker for all the jobs because x x x ."


And knock it off with the "They don't have to tell you anything" stuff. They opened a forum and asked for input. They are getting free QA testers and massive amounts of feedback. They can answer a few questions.

[Caketime]

Duh. I never disputed that I was condescending towards you. I'm like that towards snotty brats. Your random and overly zealous use of memes (even in your username) and shameful attempts at trolling suggest that you're either mentally challenged or a child, because no one else actually thinks that's funny. As I said in the quoted section, I'd hate to assume the first, so out of politeness I assume the latter.

So what if I am mentally challenged? You want to fight about it? If that were indeed the case, what would you have accomplished by pointing it out other than being an incredible asshole? You never know who you're talking to on the internet, I could very well be a mental patient, an obnoxious college student, or even your mother.

That aside, the point still stands that the developers don't have to tell you anything about how the game works. Request, beg, demand, whine all you like it's all the same. At the end of the day they're going to troll both of us harder than ever before over the next year, and we're both going to like it. I might even venture to sy that the entire community is mental in some way, as we continue to play this game in spite of many completely ridiculous things that transpire. Now finish up your sandwich and scoot off to bed, you've got School in the morning.

[FrankReynolds]

So what if I am mentally challenged? You want to fight about it? If that were indeed the case, what would you have accomplished by pointing it out other than being an incredible asshole? You never know who you're talking to on the internet, I could very well be a mental patient, an obnoxious college student, or even your mother.

That aside, the point still stands that the developers don't have to tell you anything about how the game works. Request, beg, demand, whine all you like it's all the same. At the end of the day they're going to troll both of us harder than ever before over the next year, and we're both going to like it. I might even venture to sy that the entire community is mental in some way, as we continue to play this game in spite of many completely ridiculous things that transpire. Now finish up your sandwich and scoot off to bed, you've got School in the morning.

So in a nutshell: Trolling the players is okay because everyone who plays this is mentally handicapped.

Good argument.

[Caketime]

Did you really just break out in song during an argument to prove that your not a child? Never mind, don't answer that.

I did it to entertain myself, sorry if I'm shitting up the thread with non-serious posts. The thing is though, you can't always get what you want no matter how much you bitch about it.

[FrankReynolds]

I did it to entertain myself, sorry if I'm shitting up the thread with non-serious posts. The thing is though, you can't always get what you want no matter how much you bitch about it.

True, but the squeaky wheel... etc.

It's really not a lot to ask. FFS, Larry page updates his google+ feed with info on product development etc. and responds to comments / answers questions like a hundred times a day. I think the schmoes at the FFXI PR office can spare a few minutes per day to give some honest answers.

[Caketime]

Absolutely, they could. But you and I already know they won't.

[FrankReynolds]

Absolutely, they could. But you and I already know they won't.

I'm pretty sure that you're not opposed to them communicating better. Are you just here to screw with people?

[Demon6324236]

Absolutely, they could. But you and I already know they won't.

And thats the exact problem this thread was meant to address and bring to their attention. Why are you fighting against this again? Do you want us to keep getting stupid lazy answers and know nothing about why our ideas are denied?

[cidbahamut]

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/002/063/arguecat.png

[Caketime]

And thats the exact problem this thread was meant to address and bring to their attention. Why are you fighting against this again? Do you want us to keep getting stupid lazy answers and know nothing about why our ideas are denied?

Frankly, I think it's hilarious. These same developers denied BLU the ability to save spell sets because making the job more convenient to play would be unbalancing. Same guys who said that all pet jobs but BST may zone their pets because spending gil = balance. What makes you think they're going to listen at all? They only act when there's some huge glaring issue that will drive people from the game, and even then it takes them 6 months to a year to address anything, and this is assuming that their response actually helps or is just a temporary band-aid until we stop paying attention and yell about something else being horribly broken, or completely untested garbage events being shoved at us that are just re-skinned versions of older events. I see the futility in asking for anything from the developers because when you ask them for things they come up with gold like our new 2Hr abilities and completely ignore what was suggested in the first place.

[Nala]

You perpetually miss the point, its not that I think they will get it but that they keep missing it and they need to heed their players instead of stubbornly playing the evil genie/game master role.

I sincerely doubt that this thread will make any difference but it has not stopped me from trying, hence why I do get sick of the no police type attitude some people like to take. I get it on ideas that are totally lame/silly/way out of the ball park of reasonable; but on good, reasonable and awesome ideas they need to take note.

In regards to the new 2 hours what was originally suggested? don't recall, that is another thing they intentionally ignore certain topics till they boil over and so much hate is seething forth that it gets locked, people forget and the subject dies. That was sort of what I wanted to address a few months back when I made a thread about things they said they were going to do but never did.

Now that I've mentioned it any peeps care to chime in on topics that died never being addressed or that should have been addressed but was told no for BS reasons?