Cure V, Raise II Where?

[Yekyaa]

Any plans to add this to RDM spell lists now that the level cap has been increased?
Also, first XD

[Gokulo]

Damn, first post on RDM forums and already starting with demands :D

Anyway, I second the Cure V question, but I dunno if we need Raise II that much (though it would always help with timers I guess).

[Snaplin]

Cure 5 would be nice.

[Draylo]

Honestly Cure 5 and 6 would make RDM overpowered and overshadow WHM. I don't think it will happen.

[Septimus]

Honestly Cure 5 and 6 would make RDM overpowered and overshadow WHM. I don't think it will happen.

WHMs have enough tricks up their sleeves that even if RDMs and SCHs had Cure V, WHM would still be the top-tier healer in the game.

That said, I would prefer to have Paralyze II land on anything that mattered before Cure V.

[Trangnai]

I personally don't see a point to cure V, rdm is a decent healer without it, and I don't see why we should become pseudo-whms fulltime again, Giving us access to another raise however would be nice.

But I have to agree, I would like to see our Enfeebles be able to actually be usable more often, as well as our Melee potential, were already decent at most roles but some lack luster or are worthless on things that matter.

[Showmo]

I would like to see Cure V added to Red Mage's spell list as well. With the level cap increase and with players now able to achieve 3,000+ HP inside of Abyssea, curing for only ~450 HP seems to fall a bit short sometimes (especially when being a solo healer).

[rog]

I personally don't see a point to cure V, rdm is a decent healer without itBut it's not. It's not even close to acceptable. It's often not even worth the effort to cure, if all you can cure is 450~ at a time, every 3-5 seconds. Rdm is passable in situations where very little damage is taken, but realistically how often is that?

[Hohenheim]

Rdm needs Cure 5 minimum. I don't know how it will change things outside Abyssea, but in all honestly speaking, who knows what would be added outside..I'm just going to assume inside is the end for now.

And it needs it. Badly. In fact, as a Whm as well, sometimes I wish I had a Cure 7.

[Trangnai]

In cases where rdm is curing there normally backing up a whm or low-maning an NM that doesn't deal the excess of damage that a whm would be required for. With a decent mnd + Potency build you should be able to get a decent amount of HP cured from IV, at least 600, but that still isnt nothing to what cure V can do, I will say that.

[Sylar]

I don't really think RDM needs Raise II, but considering that Cure IV becomes subable at 96/48, it'd be nice if our highest cure wasn't available via subjob. Nevermind the fact that WHM has Cure VI, a ton of potency gear, and Refresh/Convert if they want it. RDM is a long way from being equal to it, let alone better.

[Pyrsos]

I personally don't see a point to cure V, rdm is a decent healer without it, and I don't see why we should become pseudo-whms fulltime again

<true strike>. although it would be quite useful for converting...

[Apelila]

Cure V is a nice 'oh shi...' button in the situations where a healer is needed and it would be nice if I could bring RDM instead of WHM for enfeebling.

[Seriha]

Instead of Cure V, I'd prefer a long lasting "buff" we can put on players that would recover a percentage of damage taken based on your Enhancing Magic skill in a short period of time. Ideally, it alongside Cure IV should match a Cure V in potency in the same span of time. Enmity could still be a concern in longer fights, but that in part emphasizes the utility of -enmity gear or inviting a THF for their JAs.

[Lovehatehero]

I would like to see Cure V added to Red Mage's spell list as well. With the level cap increase and with players now able to achieve 3,000+ HP inside of Abyssea, curing for only ~450 HP seems to fall a bit short sometimes (especially when being a solo healer).


Or just up the soft and hard caps for cures. this would help solve a lot of healing issues

[Duelle]

WHMs have enough tricks up their sleeves that even if RDMs and SCHs had Cure V, WHM would still be the top-tier healer in the game.

That said, I would prefer to have Paralyze II land on anything that mattered before Cure V.In abyssea it wouldn't be a big deal, but outside both RDM and SCH are capable of outlasting a WHM as is. It might cause a return to the TAU days where people wanted a RDM healer because of their longevity. Those refresh atmas are bigger equalizers than most realize.

[Showmo]

Or just up the soft and hard caps for cures. this would help solve a lot of healing issues

This would be an excellent idea as well. If healing magic skill also played a bigger role in the amount you cured for, it would also resolve the issue with jobs without native healing magic skill subbing mage jobs and still curing for pretty much the same amount as a Red Mage (or other mage jobs with native healing magic skill).

[Juxtaposition]

Instead of a Cure V, RDMs could do to have a 'Curasa' spell: something on a moderate cooldown, 10-20 seconds or so, and heals proportionately to the percentage of HP lost on the target. RDM healing is passable at the moment, our only big weakness I could see needing filled is the need for an emergency 'big heal' button. Curaga healing can stay WHM's niche.

[Jeanluke]

I for one would like to see some multiple status enfeebles. Kind of like in FFVIII. Would save time casting 1 spell over multiple spells. Where redmage really shines is enfeebles. Or adding enfeeble effects to en-spells would be cool along with other benefits. Just seems there is something more that could come......and if its gonna be there why not emphasize on the enfeebles. Or have the duration increased in proportion to its en-spell.

[GERM]

Raise II would be nice at times considering the use of RDM. Cure V like people have said is a must especially in abyssea with the amount of HP you have to cure. 5-6 cure IV and you have to start thinking about your MP and how long you can sustain a MNK tank that is taking a lot of damage. I loved the Refresh2 that made me happy also.
I would like to see the RDM become something more then just a backup whm though even outside abyssea yes they have cure but they have a decent sword skill and the sword enchancing spells should be given a chance too..

[Eth]

I think we need to look at the bigger picture here. Starting at level 21, WHM approximately receives a new cure spell every 20 levels:

Cure III - level 21
Cure IV - level 41
Cure V - level 61
Cure VI - level 80

I take the jump of only 19 levels from V to VI as a hint that the devs intend to give WHM Cure VII at level 99. At that point, it should not represent a balance issue at all to give RDM (and SCH) Cure V.

[RaenRyong]

The game has progressed to the point where WHM is the ONLY legitimate healing support job for a large majority of (admittedly largely Abyssea) fights - this is a huge balance error. Even with CureV RDM will not overtake WHM - it will simply be usable. WHM is currently the game's most overpowered job.

[rog]

The game has progressed to the point where WHM is the ONLY legitimate healing support job for a large majority of (admittedly largely Abyssea) fights - this is a huge balance error. Even with CureV RDM will not overtake WHM - it will simply be usable. WHM is currently the game's most overpowered job.
Blu is passable too :(

[Felren]

Outside of abyssea I can live with only cure IV... but inside abyssea with the insane HP, and insane amount of damage taken, Cure IV is embarrisingly outdated to have as a top heal for rdm/sch. Spamming Cure IV in some situations isn't enough, but the biggest problem with Cure IV is the amount of threat it draws. In a lot of situations, you just can't get away with a rdm spamming heals due to this.

[wildsprite]

Cure V would most certainly be useful, Raise II would be nice but less necessary than Cure V

[Quetzacoatl]

I personally think RDM Healing is okay the way it is now. RDM has always been a support job, and a little help goes a long way, whether it be also nuking in a party full of BLMs while throwing out refreshes, or taking healing duties over for a WHM resting for MP. Primarily though, I love Enfeebling and Enhancing.

SE needs to think on this one carefully, though- I'd hate to become a Pseudo-WHM like the Treasures of Aht Urhgan era transformed the job to be, and WHM would again be overshadowed like Draylo said. The only reason RDM was the perfect healer before Abyssea is because Cure 4 can proportionately heal enough HP, where Cure 5 or 6 seems more like a wasted effort, especially on the MP pool. I like the Curasa suggestion personally, as it adds a new trick for RDM that differentiates it from WHM. Plus, you certainly get more buffs and debuffs on the side to make enemies go down easier.

[Emitremmus]

Personally I think red mage could benefit from abilities akin to the Afflatus JAs. Perhaps a JA that will modify your next cure potency dependent upon the amount of damage of your last casted nuke. I realize this is situational, but it could still have its uses to balance the playing field with RDM and WHM.

Another thought I have had in the past was a JT that compares to "Double Attack", but with magic instead. "Double Cast" maybe? Perhaps either (1) Occasionally doubling the potency of a spell, or, (2) The same spell is occasionally cast again immediately after the first cast, with a reduced MP cost if any cost at all.

[Aliekber]

Outside of Abyssea, where Tanks don't have HP in the 4k range, Cure IV is okay. Inside of Abyssea, I might as well just come BLM to everything instead of RDM unless I'm soloing an NM (and an NM NIN/DNC can't take care of faster than RDM could, at that). Perhaps make a relatively easy-to-get Staff with:

Cure Potency +10%
Visitant Status: "Cure V"
85 RDM SCH

Or something like that. Though I'd rather have the spell natively.

[Kuvo]

I think we will be getting Cure V prior to capping at lvl 99. We got cure IV at lvl 48. At lvl 99 thats over 50 levels ago without another cure spell. They will give us Cure V. As for another raise, honestly I feel no need for it but I do think we need a more diverse enfeeble spell list, more potent mix, or create another tier with more merits.

[wildsprite]

Cure V would be nice, however honestly I would rather see RDM get Reraise than Raise II

[Tellahchan]

Outside of abyssea I can live with only cure IV... but inside abyssea with the insane HP, and insane amount of damage taken, Cure IV is embarrisingly outdated to have as a top heal for rdm/sch. Spamming Cure IV in some situations isn't enough, but the biggest problem with Cure IV is the amount of threat it draws. In a lot of situations, you just can't get away with a rdm spamming heals due to this.
I agree with this so much.

[rog]

however honestly I would rather see RDM get Reraise than Raise II
Saving gil is more important than raising people faster?

[Quetzacoatl]

I hate being so vehement about this, but If RDM gets Cure 5, I'm dropping RDM because we all know what it'll turn into outside Abyssea, when it does get the spell, and how it'll impact WHM. Why go F@#%ing backwards? Honestly, if we do get something that's already in the game, make it Regen III.

[rog]

I hate being so vehement about this, but If RDM gets Cure 5, I'm dropping RDM because we all know what it'll turn into outside Abyssea, when it does get the spell, and how it'll impact WHM. Why go F@#%ing backwards? Honestly, if we do get something that's already in the game, make it Regen III.Because rdm has nothing other than cure5 to offer?

[RaenRyong]

WHM will still remain top curing job if RDM gets Cure5. It just won't be the ONLY viable curing job.
Yeah I know BLU etc..

[Duelle]

WHM will still remain top curing job if RDM gets Cure5. It just won't be the ONLY viable curing job.
Yeah I know BLU etc..The problem is that class longevity is moot in abyssea due to refresh atmas. Outside abyssea RDM and SCH can outlast WHM. If RDM and SCH get cure V, which is more than enough as is outside abyssea, there's the risk of them becoming the preffered healers and WHM getting kicked to the curb despite their bigger healing potential on paper. It happened during TAU, which is why some people are weary of that.

[rog]

It happened in taou because whm has almost no refresh at all. Now they can get 6/tic refresh, and vert. Remember when /sch came out? Whm was suddenly desired, if only a little, when just the day before it was considered a useless job. It went from having almost no way to recover mp other than resting, to being able to sustain itself. Whm will be fine.

[Quetzacoatl]

Because rdm has nothing other than cure5 to offer?

Because we're talking balance. Not everything is happening in Abyssea. It's just Abyssea is hot stuff at this time of the game, and If you really want better curing power for your RDM, start a Surya's Staff+2 and at least grab Serpentes Hands and Feet, and a Fylgja Torque. That'll put you at 29% Curing Potency. If you multiply, for example, 410 by .29, you get 118.9. Add 410, you'll be hitting 528 Cure IV's (decimals are rounded down iirc). In Abyssea, Atma of the Rescuer adds another 10% (39% total). Instant 569 Cure IV. IMO, that's a fair amount for RDM to throw out without overclassing WHM. I would also suggest a Roundel Earring, but I would wait until Campaign Ops are readjusted so that more drop and the huge price for them deflates.

What's funny about this is that I only have an Apollo's Staff for Curing on my RDM.


The problem is that class longevity is moot in abyssea due to refresh atmas. Outside abyssea RDM and SCH can outlast WHM. If RDM and SCH get cure V, which is more than enough as is outside abyssea, there's the risk of them becoming the preffered healers and WHM getting kicked to the curb despite their bigger healing potential on paper. It happened during TAU, which is why some people are weary of that.

Thank You.

[Delvante]

"In response to Emitremmus' Comment"

I think you have a decent idea regarding the potential for a double potency affect. I would say if you were going to introduce this idea or the idea of a double cast for a reduced mp cost, you'd then want to implement them as a JA. But that's my personal opinion.

[RaenRyong]

Because we're talking balance. Not everything is happening in Abyssea. It's just Abyssea is hot stuff at this time of the game, and If you really want better curing power for your RDM, start a Surya's Staff+2 and at least grab Serpentes Hands and Feet, and a Fylgja Torque. That'll put you at 29% Curing Potency. If you multiply, for example, 410 by .29, you get 118.9. Add 410, you'll be hitting 528 Cure IV's (decimals are rounded down iirc). In Abyssea, Atma of the Rescuer adds another 10% (39% total). Instant 569 Cure IV. IMO, that's a fair amount for RDM to throw out without overclassing WHM. I would also suggest a Roundel Earring, but I would wait until Campaign Ops are readjusted so that more drop and the huge price for them deflates.

I have all of this and my curing power still leaves a lot to be desired.

WHM not only destroys RDM at single target cures, it destroys them at not generating enmity while doing so (having more utility on hate-reset NMs), anything that inflicts status ailments, AoE curing, etc. Abyssea or not, WHM is too strong (or the other healing jobs are too weak).

[Delvante]

As far as the entire Cure V and Reraise aspect is concerned:

Personally, having a bit higher cure such as Cure V would be a nice benefit even outside of Abyssea. My biggest thought to this is the frustration of soloing such as a /dnc or /nin or even a /war status doing normal solo or campaign or whatever. When we Convert on RDM without /whm it pretty much sucks in the fact that we have to blow at least 2 cure IV's and a cure III or toss a Regen I/II with your Composure going. But then you're already blowing through a lessened MP pool when outside of Abyssea by time you fully heal yourself. Not to mention you're wasting more time tossing extra spells to get yourself topped off on HP when trying to solo something. There is where I'd find it a little more necessary to have a larger cure especially so if you're not subbing WHM (Divine Seal is the reference to a better cure when referring to subbing WHM) at all.

As far as the Raise II, yea I can see where it'd be nice to have 2 different raise potentials where there are multiple people dead and you need to shorten the party/alliance death effect time but it's still not particularly necessary. I personally would be all about the idea of a Reraise spell for RDM without the need to /whm to get it. This would open up some more potentials for subjobs without worrying about not having Reraise. Yes, granted you could go and purchase Reraise items and all that, but why settle for that if you can just get the spell naturally?

This is my personal opinion based on these spells. I know some won't agree but I do feel as though I offer some reasonable situations for the usefulness of the spells. Discuss away! :)

[Supersun]

"In response to Emitremmus' Comment"

I think you have a decent idea regarding the potential for a double potency affect. I would say if you were going to introduce this idea or the idea of a double cast for a reduced mp cost, you'd then want to implement them as a JA. But that's my personal opinion.

The only issue with a JA that enhances cure potency is whenever a OSH*T moment arises the last thing you can afford is to be locked out of spellcasting because you are using a JA.

[Quetzacoatl]

I have all of this and my curing power still leaves a lot to be desired.

WHM not only destroys RDM at single target cures, it destroys them at not generating enmity while doing so (having more utility on hate-reset NMs), anything that inflicts status ailments, AoE curing, etc. Abyssea or not, WHM is too strong (or the other healing jobs are too weak).

Still though, it's just one step closer to overpowering RDM if it gets cure 5. SCH I wouldn't mind so much, but for RDM there needs to be an alternative. :\

[RaenRyong]

One step out of underpowered/irrelevant territory is one I will fully support.

[Felren]

Cure V given to rdm,sch outside of abyssea would cut out whm's usefulness for sure.... but has SE even stated they will add endgame that isn't abyssea at 99? The way it looks now all thats going to be added is abyssea, and then you'll have old 75 content, which isn't what you should be balancing jobs on.....

[Quetzacoatl]

One step out of underpowered/irrelevant territory is one I will fully support.

Enjoy making WHM irrelevant again outside Abyssea then. We should be jacks of all trades, not one-trick ponies.

[Lush]

Cure 5 for RDM WOULD help.

[RaenRyong]

Enjoy making WHM irrelevant again outside Abyssea then. We should be jacks of all trades, not one-trick ponies.

WHM loses Cure6, more efficient cures, higher tier Curagas, Esuna, etc?

[Supersun]

I just think giving Rdm Cure 5 is the lazy answer. It's not like our options are either Cure 5 or nothing. What other options are there that would allow Rdm to main heal better inside abyssea that would fit Rdm?

[rog]

WHM loses Cure6, more efficient cures, higher tier Curagas, Esuna, etc?
And rdm gets solace.

[Supersun]

Also, FYI, there's more or less the exact same thread in the Japanese Rdm forums with more or less the same points XD.

[Quetzacoatl]

WHM loses Cure6, more efficient cures, higher tier Curagas, Esuna, etc?

That won't even matter outside Abyssea as long as people are still alive and the RDM still has enough MP to go through.


I just think giving Rdm Cure 5 is the lazy answer. It's not like our options are either Cure 5 or nothing. What other options are there that would allow Rdm to main heal better inside abyssea that would fit Rdm?

This is also why it annoys me so much. I personally liked the Curasa suggestion where the amount cured is a percentage of the amount of damage dealt against the player.

[Supersun]

Can't you say the same of Whm though? Is Refresh 1 and Convert not enough? Is Rdms extra 3 MP/Tick really going to beat all of Whms healing efficiency. Don't get me wrong, I still think giving Rdms cure 5 is lazy, but things have changed since 75.

[Quetzacoatl]

It only matters for WHM in Abyssea with Refresh Atmas covering their MP expenditure. Outside, they'll only need Balladx2 from a BRD. RDM's Refresh 2 combined with that is pretty much top for MP refresh, plus convert merits make RDM's MP pool almost infinite. Cure 6 is mostly a waste in this instance and MP inefficient.

[Yekyaa]

Aside from all this, some people weary of going back to "ToAU" days seem to have forgotten that the level cap is no longer 75. WHM now gets Refresh and Convert with RDM sub also a body piece with Refresh that's free... Even outside Abyssea, with current mob strengths there's no reason RDM can't have Cure V. What does RDM get with WHM sub that puts the balance back? I still only see Cure IV and Regen II in my list. Oh wait, Divine Seal... yeah I've had that for a LONG time. BLM/WHM can do my job in and out of abyssea right now as a main healer. It's not difficult to equip that Cure Potency gear on BLM as well as increase their already substantial MP pool (when trying). Healing Magic doesn't affect Cure spells as much as people would hope. SCH I can understand having the ability to Accession Cure IV. The trade-off is being within a 10' radius of who you want to cure...

Re: Adding Reraise natively. Seriously? They gave us Reraise scrolls for what, 7 CP/IS/AN now? How is it NOT possible that outside of abyssea you have a Reraise scroll? Unless I'm missing something here, clue me in.

TLDR; BLM/WHM = RDM/WHM until RDM gets Cure V. WHM/RDM = RDM with Esuna/Solace/Convert/Refresh/Cure V/Cure VI etc... where's the balance? Reraise? Buy a scroll. Raise II Yes please for those emergency situations.

[Quetzacoatl]

Here's a WHM's point of view:

Before RDM with Cure 5:


WHM/RDM = RDM with Esuna/Solace/Convert/Refresh/Cure V/Cure VI

After RDM with Cure 5:


WHM/RDM =

Esuna is only a gimmick that makes it easier for WHMs to cure status afflictions and Solace is only an extra icing on a Cure's cake to keep party members alive a little longer. How is this going to matter on outside content, which is now considered easier than at level 75?

Is anyone not understanding how this is going to work if RDM does get cure 5? RDM will be the only sole healer preferred outside abyssea solely for its high MP efficiency with Refresh II, Ballads, Evoker's etc. and the level cap not being level 75 anymore is irrelevant to job choice, since players will generally go for what's better anyway.

There has to be an alternative to Cure 5 to keep job balance.

[rog]

There's more to healing than pure efficiency.

Which rdm would still lose at, due to no solace (which is a little more than just icing), curagas, etc.

[Supersun]

Solace alone is going to beat our extra 3 MP a tick and slightly faster convert.

[Quetzacoatl]

There's more to healing than pure efficiency.

Which rdm would still lose at, due to no solace (which is a little more than just icing), curagas, etc.

RDM/SCH & Accession = There's your Curaga 5, which will keep your party members healed for a good while. Swapping Duelist's Tabard and Warlock's Chapeau at the start of casting will cut down the triple recast to 15 seconds on use (30 seconds base without, and you get Fast Cast 5 as a trait). And by Icing I do mean the stoneskin that will end up getting worn off by a spike attack from a mob and in most cases can be covered with another cure 4, so... >.>

[rog]

Yeah, if only /sch stratagems weren't 2 min recast, and wasting them on cures wasn't retarded.

Also, fyi, you can't cap your recasts without march. 50% fast cast only lowers recast by 25%.

[Quetzacoatl]

Yeah, if only /sch stratagems weren't 2 min recast, and wasting them on cures wasn't retarded.

Also, fyi, you can't cap your recasts without march. 50% fast cast only lowers recast by 25%.

You do realize you can low-man things now? In that case you probably won't need /SCH strategems anyway! and regardless, you'll still bump your recast down to 20 seconds. That'll still leave you with Cure 4 for 20 seconds considering your tank's not a jackass at what he's doing.

All I'm saying is the extra effort from WHM will not be needed so much anymore when RDM does (if it ever does) get Cure 5. And that is going backwards.

[rog]

Right, because having the option to use either rdm or whm is worse than just needing a whm for everything.

Whm will be just fine without a monopoly on healing.

[Quetzacoatl]

It wouldn't even be an option anymore. RDM has been a highly accessible job for years in ToAU's reign, and will continue to be so outside abyssea.

It's either we let WHM have their cookie-cutter spot in some roles or share it and make them obsolete. This is why SE has to think carefully on what they should do to better RDM's curing ability.

[rog]

Or we could be interchangeable jobs, with no significant advantages either way. Whm would have better healing, rdm would have better endurance, and enfeebles. We'd be approximately even, depending on the situation. Neither would be obsolete. Yes, rdm would likely have a slight advantage overall, but not enough that a whm couldn't manage healing anything a rdm could.

[Quetzacoatl]

I really want to buy your argument. I really do. Perhaps I just think too much in black and white, but that's all it has ever come down to in the game: black & white thinking, because SE eventually does something that turns the tides on jobs' overall usefulness. I'm still saying we should get at least a Curasa spell before we even leap at the thought of RDM getting Cure 5 so fast, and observe how it'll affect the two jobs in competition for healing.

[Mojo]

It's long overdue for both RDM and SCH. They're both completely inadequate for filling any kind of healing roll. The jobs have been pitifully crippled by Abyssea. For all of you people claiming that it might marginalize WHM, maybe sit down and actually compare actual numbers before making such absurd statements.

To begin with, WHM can cap Cure Potency (50%) while also healing in their AF3+2 body. Granted, this requires obtaining some hard to get gear, but it's still possible. With the same difficult to acquire gear, the most RDM can hope for is 30%.
I'm going to be somewhat lazy and just use base stats of 150 MND and 150 VIT and their respective healing magic skills at cap (note: this simple reduction actually favors RDM.)

Using this calculator, http://members.shaw.ca/pizza_steve/cure/Cure_Calculator.html, which is conveniently programmed with cure calculations, the results are clear.


Job Cure IV Stoneskin Total Cure V Stoneskin Total
RDM 538 0 538 947 0 947
WHM 627 220 847 1105 387 1492

Cure Marginal Gains
IV 57.4%
V 57.5%

I'm aware that these numbers aren't going to be spot on because of the approximations I made, but they're going to be pretty good ballpark numbers. White Mages would still be curing nearly 60% more efficiently than Red Mages, which more or less eclipses the advantage of slightly more Refresh (and is this even necessary most of the time?) This doesn't even cover the other benefits that White Mage can offer (Cure VI and the like.) The job would be far from any kind of marginalization.

[rog]

The idea that no one is going to want whm because rdm is slightly better is ridiculous. It happened in toau because rdm was far, far better. That is no longer the case. Whm now has 3/tic refresh from gear, self refresh, and vert now. Hell, even once /sch was released, whm became much more popular. Rdm was definitely still preferred, but whm was acceppted if one couldn't be found. And even with /sch, rdm was still quite a bit better at the time, so of course it makes sense. However now that whm has adequate mp recovery, as well as superior healing, it will always be in demand, even if its monopoly is broken by giving rdm cure 5.

The idea that no one will want whms anymore just because rdm is a little better is just as ridiculous as the idea that no one will want mnks/sams/nin/etc just because war is better. Is war a better dd? Yes, it is. However the margin is small enough that it really doesn't matter one bit, and the jobs can be considered more or less equal, with some being more useful for different situations.

A job needs to be significantly worse than others for it to lose all demand. That will never again happen to whm.

[Rambus]

WHM are on cure VI already.

The only thing that makes cure V overpowered is the static Enmity that cure V has. SE can drop that, and then give WHM some trait of cure enmity down that works outside caps. Make cure VI a better cure / mp ratio, then you are fine letting PLD, RDM and SCH having cure V. you cannot have jobs on /WHM and at 99 /RDM that has the same cure power as jobs that has cures as a main. It is not a progression for having the same level cure of natural cure jobs (PLD, RDM,SCH) and having anything sub it. Not giving PLD, RDM, SCH cure V just shows SE wasn’t fully ready to past this game past 75. I still think this game is not meant to past 75 and they are trying to force it that way.

I do think RDM can use raise II, SCH can use raise III and WHM use raise IV by 99, you need progression in all areas. I do not know about PLD and raise II though, they originally never had a raise.

[rog]

I do not know about PLD and raise II though, they originally never had a raise.
They originally got it at 75.

[Rambus]

They originally got it at 75.

Pretty sure it was nothing > 75> 50
could be wrong i guess, been a while

[rog]

Pretty sure it was nothing > 75> 50
could be wrong i guess, been a while
I could swear they got it right when the level cap went up to 75. If not, then it wouldn't be the first time i was wrong.

[Xikeroth]

I don't think RDM should get cure 5 or 6 to be honest, if anything SCH should get cure 5 but we need to keep WHM as the dominant healer so we have hopes to do more then curebot

[RaenRyong]

Keeping WHM as the dominant (read: only) healer is stupid for game balance. Would you complain if there was only one viable DD?

[Silvers]

Maybe we are looking at this the wrong way? The way Curasa been described, it's sounds like the Afflatus Misery+Cura system without using a JA. I think that would throw off the balance even more in (that would be better slap to the face to WHM, then the one RDM recieve by BRD getting Fencer). I always though that what Afflatus Misery does for Cura would be nice for all cure spells. If another job was to recieve Misery or a similar JA, I find myself looking at PLD (but that's just me). Could be better off it the adjusted the enmity for Cure 5 for jobs other than WHM as stated before. If giving RDM and SCH Cure 5 would move things backwards, then maybe that's how we should look at things. What I mean by that is that we should look at how to preserve or retain job balance when giving them Cure 5. I believe SE has thought about WHM's MP effiency and that's why these stats was added to WHM's AF3 legs:

Orison Pantaloons +1
[Legs] All Races
DEF: 39 MND +5
Healing magic casting time -8%
Converts 2% of "Cure" amount to MP
"Divine Benison" +1
Lv. 83 WHM

Orison Pantaloons +2
[Legs] All Races
DEF: 41 MND +7
Healing magic casting time -12%
Converts 5% of Cure amount to MP
Divine Benison +1
Set: Augments elemental resistance spells
Lv. 83 WHM
taken from ffxiclopedia.org

Giving RDM Cure 5 is not lazy idea, actually you could say it's quite practical. What would be lazy, is giving them the spell without addressing the known issues that it could possibly generate in doing so. Adding another 1-2 pieces with "Converts x% of Cure amount to MP" could be the answer. Maybe the development team is already on top, at least I'm hoping they are.

[Trangnai]

Keeping WHM as the dominant (read: only) healer is stupid for game balance. Would you complain if there was only one viable DD?

How in the world is whm being the best healer unbalanced? also comparing it to DD which at least 12 out of the 20 jobs we have happen to be makes your point kinda moot. Our curing ability is fine, also, sch should have Cure V (under addendum: white at least) more then rdm should have it, if we do get it, it shouldn't be till 96 where cure IV is subbable with rdm. You're also saying that rdm isnt able to heal now, which it is, its just not Dominant, and shouldent be, its red mage not white mage, if you want white mage level white mage.

[Mojo]

Red Mage is not capable of adequate healing inside of Abyssea. If you think it is, then you've never tried having a lone Red Mage healer while doing any NMs that actually require a respectable healer. Cure IV is pathetically inadequate inside of Abyssea. If you think otherwise, try duoing something like Pantokrator with a MNK and get back to me on how it goes.

[Yekyaa]

Honestly, WHMs are easily replaced with a second character. I know plenty of my linkshell members who dualbox a second character as WHM when the occassion calls for it. Typically this is done when they don't want to play WHM at all and instead DD for the fun of it.
Maybe I'm coming from the wrong mentality on it. I see the concerns existing WHMs have, but I think the fears are unfounded. WHM/RDM before at 82+ still has Refresh and Convert, and that doesn't change just because RDM gets Cure V at whatever level it gets assigned. The level progression is there, and so far it's been applied to elemental spells (Stone/Water/Aero/Fire/Blizzard IV and soon to be Thunder IV). Our nuking power was always decent for the work we applied it to with Blizzard III and that was at 75. Healing Magic on RDM imo is the only thing that's stagnated.

RDM WHM
Cure 3 1
Cure II 14 11
Cure III 26 21
Cure IV 48 41
Cure V ?? 61
Cure VI ?? 80
Raise 38 25
Raise II ?? 56
Raise III ?? 70

As you can see, RDMs level progression with Cure started at level 3 and progressed to the next tier at 11, 12, 12.
WHM started at 1 (of course) and progressed 10, 10, 20, 20, 19 (possibly 19 for next tier if SE so chooses).

If it continues without an addition to RDMs line of healing, when level 99 arrives, anyone can /RDM and get Cure IV while still having Convert and Refresh.
I welcome any addition to my healing line of magic, the statement to give RDM Cure V was
more a quick and dirty solution to continue our existing natural progression.
Hell even a modded Cure V with the original enmity rules would be better than spamming two Cure IV's back to back and
pulling MORE enmity than a Cure IV, Cure V, and Cure VI back to back on WHM.

Regarding Raise, the exact same progression(or currently lack thereof) with WHM. Starting at 25, it goes 31, 14... One can only assume they weren't given Raise II at level 50 to keep some form of challenge in the game.

With RDM, even if you assume a 2x level difference starting at 38, adding 38 puts you at 76... even allowing for a 50 level difference (which is MORE than the difference between Raise and Raise III on WHM) we still should've seen it at 88...
That was kind of where I was expecting to use it.

61 level progression (mind you it's extreme) puts it at level 99... But that's the same level progression it takes to get 5 tiers of Cure and 2 tiers of Raise on WHM... Raise II's xp difference is not that great a deal that it would be game-breaking to give us a second Raise we could use in the event of a partial Alliance wipe and it's useless when we solo anyway, so where's a valid counterargument?
It can't be subbed; SCH gets it at level 70(addendum:white) but their Cure IV(native) comes at level 55...
SCH for Cure btw was 12, 13, 25. Worst case scenario it should be Addendum: White for Cure V at 93 (12, 13, 25, 38)

I just don't see how these spells were overlooked in the initial 3 level increases. I would rather see if there's any consideration for adding these spells or some equivalent to RDM (please) and/or SCH at any point. SCH I don't play so whenever they get it, they get it idc, I just figured I'd toss the argument out.

[Trangnai]

Red Mage is not capable of adequate healing inside of Abyssea. If you think it is, then you've never tried having a lone Red Mage healer while doing any NMs that actually require a respectable healer. Cure IV is pathetically inadequate inside of Abyssea. If you think otherwise, try duoing something like Pantokrator with a MNK and get back to me on how it goes.

Yes, because all mobs should be duoable by a mnk and a healer to begin with, you people complain the game is broken but seem to instantly forget how easy its become. I have done low-man healing but nothing of the mnk with healer duo nature. and I've healed plenty fine. if your saying we should replace whm with a rdm why don't we replace mnk with another job and see how that goes as well?

I personally still don't see the issue, alot of you complain like you leveled rdm expecting it to be a better healer then whm. and because its not that thats what you want. but maybe the lack of cure V is to show that SE dosent want use becoming curebots again. I would feel more inclined to it at 95-96ish as well as getting raise II within that time frame. Ether way we would still get it.

[Seriha]

I'd rather us have better damage prevention than restorative abilities. This lends itself fairly well to more enfeebles, but from the ATK perspective, Bio is rarely preferred over Dia and even when fiddling with a mob's ATK, they still have stupid high damage ratings relative to their attack delay. From the math perspective, an enfeeble that hurts that would do more in nerfing the amount we'd need to cure even if stuck in a main heal position. Blind actually has similar issues, since tweaking a mob's ACC is rather pointless unless you're dealing with an evasion tank (this died off when PLD gained steam, but is admittedly regaining some ground in low-man with Abyssea offering both AGI and EVA buffs... but Abyssea might not be forever~). Enfeebles to greatly diminish MACC/MATK/MDMG are also a possibility on the other side of the damage spectrum.

[RaenRyong]

You CAN replace the mnk with another melee. You CANNOT replace the whm with another healer.

See the problem?

We don't want RDM to be better, we want RDM to be VIABLE.

[Trangnai]

You CAN replace the mnk with another melee. You CANNOT replace the whm with another healer.

See the problem?

We don't want RDM to be better, we want RDM to be VIABLE.

theres also how many more melees? and the last i check theres still only a select few that can replace said mnk. considering this game only has 3 healers to begin with, I don't see there being a reason that whm shouldn't be the best. honestly, SE should add more healing jobs in general. but by the time you have enoguh jobs to equal out all the unbalanced verables in this game there will be 80 jobs.

[RaenRyong]

WHM isn't just the best, it's the only. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. You can replace that MNK with NIN on any mob, with WAR on most mobs, with a SAM or a DRG or anything because WHM is that damn good. Only a few NMs require a dedicated "tank" in lowman (which is MNK or NIN these days).

[Silvers]

Honestly, WHMs are easily replaced with a second character. I know plenty of my linkshell members who dualbox a second character as WHM when the occassion calls for it. Typically this is done when they don't want to play WHM at all and instead DD for the fun of it.
Maybe I'm coming from the wrong mentality on it. I see the concerns existing WHMs have, but I think the fears are unfounded. WHM/RDM before at 82+ still has Refresh and Convert, and that doesn't change just because RDM gets Cure V at whatever level it gets assigned. The level progression is there, and so far it's been applied to elemental spells (Stone/Water/Aero/Fire/Blizzard IV and soon to be Thunder IV). Our nuking power was always decent for the work we applied it to with Blizzard III and that was at 75. Healing Magic on RDM imo is the only thing that's stagnated.

RDM WHM
Cure 3 1
Cure II 14 11
Cure III 26 21
Cure IV 48 41
Cure V ?? 61
Cure VI ?? 80
Raise 38 25
Raise II ?? 56
Raise III ?? 70

As you can see, RDMs level progression with Cure started at level 3 and progressed to the next tier at 11, 12, 12.
WHM started at 1 (of course) and progressed 10, 10, 20, 20, 19 (possibly 19 for next tier if SE so chooses).

If it continues without an addition to RDMs line of healing, when level 99 arrives, anyone can /RDM and get Cure IV while still having Convert and Refresh.
I welcome any addition to my healing line of magic, the statement to give RDM Cure V was
more a quick and dirty solution to continue our existing natural progression.
Hell even a modded Cure V with the original enmity rules would be better than spamming two Cure IV's back to back and
pulling MORE enmity than a Cure IV, Cure V, and Cure VI back to back on WHM.

Regarding Raise, the exact same progression(or currently lack thereof) with WHM. Starting at 25, it goes 31, 14... One can only assume they weren't given Raise II at level 50 to keep some form of challenge in the game.

With RDM, even if you assume a 2x level difference starting at 38, adding 38 puts you at 76... even allowing for a 50 level difference (which is MORE than the difference between Raise and Raise III on WHM) we still should've seen it at 88...
That was kind of where I was expecting to use it.

61 level progression (mind you it's extreme) puts it at level 99... But that's the same level progression it takes to get 5 tiers of Cure and 2 tiers of Raise on WHM... Raise II's xp difference is not that great a deal that it would be game-breaking to give us a second Raise we could use in the event of a partial Alliance wipe and it's useless when we solo anyway, so where's a valid counterargument?
It can't be subbed; SCH gets it at level 70(addendum:white) but their Cure IV(native) comes at level 55...
SCH for Cure btw was 12, 13, 25. Worst case scenario it should be Addendum: White for Cure V at 93 (12, 13, 25, 38)

I just don't see how these spells were overlooked in the initial 3 level increases. I would rather see if there's any consideration for adding these spells or some equivalent to RDM (please) and/or SCH at any point. SCH I don't play so whenever they get it, they get it idc, I just figured I'd toss the argument out.

Trying to make sense of things we don't have through relating how SE implemented things in the past and how they are now, holds little relevence or least you should have that mind set. If you think start thinking about how things was before and how they adding things now, flags are going to fly for all the patterns they broke. One could question why does RDM get Protect V at 77 and Shell V at 87? RDM used to recieve Protect and Shell at the same level as WHM. One could also question why Regen 3 was added to SCH at 83 and they don't have Regen 4, when before SCH recieved Regen spells before any other job. Not many things are being added with a streamline or direct correlation to things in the past. There has to be some deviation to outline roles, we all understand that. The need for a higher cure is greater now. During the first two cap raises, HP was not being pushed to where it is now. Not as many people had the abyssites to do so then as they do now. I don't think the spells was overlooked, I think SE didn't see the need for them at the cap increases at the time.

[Mirabelle]

I ask the RDM's that don't want Cure V: what do you want RDM to be. Pre-ToAU we were refresh-bots to maintain the mages MP. Post-ToAU we were cure-bots that could maintain MP through the rapid fire TP burns and still adequately heal.
Post-Abyssea we are needed neither for curing (which we aren't good enough at) or refreshing (no longer needed with refresh atmas, subbable refresh and convert). We were never needed for enfeebles. We still aren't. We were never great at nuking. We are better but still woeful compared to BLM. We have never been great DD'ers and still aren't. We have been great tanks but that ability was nerfed a while ago.
So if you can't be an alternate healer, what role do you think you fit in a party? Or do you think we should just be happy in a niche of solo survivability? Jack of all trades doesn't work in this game. You have to be good at something to get into parties. For RDM that's always been MP management and Curing. Unless SE suddenly changes the effects of enfeebles, it will remain so.

[Mojo]

Others beat me to it but whether or not you have a MNK is hardly important. Almost any other melee job is perfectly fine to have tanking. The WHM, however, cannot be replaced by any other class. It is the one job that is absolutely mandatory for many Abyssea NMs. It's not possible for a RDM or SCH to keep up with the numbers that some Abyssea NMs are putting out. If there ever is a situation in Abyssea in which RDM healing is adequate, then the job becomes replaced by BLM/WHM because amber procs are intrinsically more important than whatever dismissible healing improvement RDM may offer over BLM/WHM. It's already been shown that, even if Cure V was given to SCH and RDM, WHM would still be far superior for many reasons. It would at least make those two jobs viable options, however. So what's the big deal?

[Quetzacoatl]

I ask the RDM's that don't want Cure V: what do you want RDM to be. Pre-ToAU we were refresh-bots to maintain the mages MP. Post-ToAU we were cure-bots that could maintain MP through the rapid fire TP burns and still adequately heal.
Post-Abyssea we are needed neither for curing (which we aren't good enough at) or refreshing (no longer needed with refresh atmas, subbable refresh and convert). We were never needed for enfeebles. We still aren't. We were never great at nuking. We are better but still woeful compared to BLM. We have never been great DD'ers and still aren't. We have been great tanks but that ability was nerfed a while ago.
So if you can't be an alternate healer, what role do you think you fit in a party? Or do you think we should just be happy in a niche of solo survivability? Jack of all trades doesn't work in this game. You have to be good at something to get into parties. For RDM that's always been MP management and Curing. Unless SE suddenly changes the effects of enfeebles, it will remain so.

I'll just say this: Not. Everything. Is. Abyssea. and only in EXP parties we really don't see a necessity for Enfeebles. Perhaps nukes now, but saying you're not needed for Enfeebles is flat-out ridiculous if you ever hope to help your tanks survive on NMs/HNMs. I still also still refresh mages just to keep their MP going that much faster (BLU, BLM).

[GERM]

theres also how many more melees? and the last i check theres still only a select few that can replace said mnk. considering this game only has 3 healers to begin with, I don't see there being a reason that whm shouldn't be the best. honestly, SE should add more healing jobs in general. but by the time you have enoguh jobs to equal out all the unbalanced verables in this game there will be 80 jobs.

WHM is a main healing job but you can sub it with any other job that can heal depending on situation lets count jobs that have and still can be used for healing..
1 WHM 2 RDM 3 SCH 4 DNC 5 BLU 6 PLD 7 SMN 8 DRG 9 BLM
the last 3 like I said are very situational and needs a /healing job but and this is mainly outside abyssea these have been used but in abyssea which people are saying RDM can't keep up the healing with Cure IV its not possible nor can most of these other jobs..
The argument isn't that RDM can't do it but more of the idea that they offer a lot more then just a cycle job which a lot if not most RDM will say is boring. RDM offers a lot more to the table other then a A- Enhancing and B healing trait the A+ enfeebling is also practically obsoleted in abyssea especially in exp parties but low man seal hunting people shout for WHM for a reason, they offer not only a proc spell but the easiest to maintain healing ability even after 99 RDM will have most procs but with elemental magics but won't have AM spells and most aga spells but they will more then likely have Cure V which can do a little better with 800ish HP restores compared to its 400 atm. Haste is getting to the point where is being obsoleted due to gear and Refresh is the same way with atmas and gear. A job /RDM can have refresh spell and can refresh themselves and have convert. SqEnix said that they were not going to make it so a job is going to be replaced but thats whats going on and unless they give out better abilities then composure and Refresh II WHM/RDM or SCH/RDM will beable to obsolete RDM with lack of once popular enfeebles..


I'll just say this: Not. Everything. Is. Abyssea.

That is right not everything is but a lot of things are at this point in FFXI history.. People want gear and clears and this and that FROM abyssea and this is the best place to obtain high end gear with little effort compared to other stuff such as salvage and nyzule isle but that is still not for sure how effective the augmenting system is going to be after its released.. Not to mention the god gear is getting to the point where its soloable to obtain but its also getting to point where stuff is being over camped already by several small groups if not just individuals...

When the abyssea panic dies down and people start returning to the real world then people are going to start complaining about not having enough things to do or they are bored.. Dynamis is going to be very low man capable after the next update (as if its not already but the average joe blow isn't joining because they aren't offered enough of a reward for the 3 hours spend doing it) but I bet einjar is going to follow suit which is great considering the limited amount of people still doing it...

[Quetzacoatl]

I can't understand where Enfeebling is said to be obsolete. Sure, a WHM can do it just as good, but RDM has the better skill to keep the debuffs on and a variety of spells for it. If anything, Silence ends up being resisted a lot, though Addle is as good as it gets.

Also, why in the world would Haste spell become obsolete? Gear Haste is not the same as Spell Haste.

[Duelle]

So if you can't be an alternate healer, what role do you think you fit in a party? Or do you think we should just be happy in a niche of solo survivability? Jack of all trades doesn't work in this game. You have to be good at something to get into parties. For RDM that's always been MP management and Curing. Unless SE suddenly changes the effects of enfeebles, it will remain so.How about the magic fencer we've been touted as but have been anything but for the last four+ years? I'd love to see us taken away from the healer stigma for a while and be allowed to do more. That's another part (a small one at that) of why I would oppose cure V; as we are right now, you're basically perpetuating an image that needs to be killed with fire if we are to hope to be able to do more than just refresh and cure.

[rog]

WHM is a main healing job but you can sub it with any other job that can heal depending on situation lets count jobs that have and still can be used for healing..
1 WHM 2 RDM 3 SCH 4 DNC 5 BLU 6 PLD 7 SMN 8 DRG 9 BLM
You can remove rdm, sch, dnc, pld, smn, and blm from that list. Cure 4 is useless, and hardly worth casting. Drg can sometimes heal, but because of HB requirements, is not always viable, since they can't always keep someone capped off.

Whm will still be the best healer, even if rdm gets cure 5. Nothing will change that. The only difference will be that rdm will become a viable alternative.

[Juxtaposition]

If you want to swing a sword and cast magic, go level Blue Mage. RDM is never going to be accepted into parties to melee, get over it.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

If you want to swing a sword and cast magic, go level Blue Mage. RDM is never going to be accepted into parties to melee, get over it.

I never understand that, normal melee hits RDM and BLU hit the same, with Enspells RDM wins, BLU wins on WeapnSkills though, Eitherway, Parties are dead anyway so who cares.

[Xikeroth]

If you want to swing a sword and cast magic, go level Blue Mage. RDM is never going to be accepted into parties to melee, get over it.

Ok so lemme get this strait... its perfectly fine for a job like DNC to do respectable damage, self skillchain, enfeeb with effects that are very different from RDM, even buff the party with a haste samba AND heal for more then we do? No its not thats called overpowered and imbalanced.

RDM used to be a job of choice meaning we could do whatever we want. Its a "jack of all trades" job as explained by the developers of the game. Didn't want to heal? Didn't have to just find a WHM friend. You could nuke, melee so long as your buffs and enfeebs had an effect. Sadly though that "jack of all trades" aspect if all but dead.

But now because of abyssea and SE deciding to take a WoW attempt at AoE killing everything destroys the effect of RDM in a party period, luckily abyssea is only one event out of several we'll get to do at level 99 which means there should be events outside abyssea within the next few months.

What SE needs to do is revive the other aspects of the job, stop making mobs immune to enfeebles for once and start making them immune to something else. I understand the want for cure 5 and Raise 2 but with no more new abyssea content comming out (which is VERY possible that it won't in the next few months) Cure 5 wont even be needed. SE has been trying to make WHM more useful for years and I think us getting cure 5 would do more damage then good. I don't even think SCH should get it.

[Supersun]

It really depends where end game content from here on goes. If they continue endgame content where the HP pools are as ridiculous as they are now then we are definitely going to need a new way to prevent spike deaths. Not necessarily cure 5, though it would work. I just think there could be better options.

If endgame content starts revolving back to normal type stuff then we don't really need it as much. (Though I would debate against that as atma has been a great balancer to jobs. Sure some get the short end but the few that did are in an easily fixable position. What imo needs to NOT be brought back are the abyssites and the cruor buffs. If they continue to make endgame related content that utilizes atma, but leave the abyssites and cruor buffs behind I think for the most part our healing would be fine. That and they need to rethink the !! system, it's good that it prevents people from curbstomping NMs, it's bad that only a few jobs are actually viable at !!ing)

On that topic what is you opinion about Blue Mage being a better healer then Red Mage atm?

[Valkrist]

Coming from a level 90 WHM, RDM, SCH, BLM and DRG point of view, I feel that with the current Cure V spell, RDM and SCH should not have it.

As stated before, not everything will be Abyssea in the coming updates. The need to have a RDM or SCH healing up to 900~ HP in a single cast to a tank with only 1400 HP isn't as much of a necessity. But who am I to say that the coming updates won't give life to new zones that share Abyssea like qualities like Atmas and cruor buffs. Until that point where it is known that RDM and SCH need to be curing for that much outside of Abyssea, I don't see an issue of WHM having C5 or C6.

RDM and SCH will still be the go to job for healing because they are still by far better at longevity of MP, especially now at level 90. Outside of Abyssea, the need to cure 900~ HP instantly has never been an issue to RDMs and SCHs before.

They had been able to do the job perfectly well while buffing the party with hastes and refreshes, all-the-while landing potent enfeebs at level 75. Now we're talking about having RDMs with Refresh II and higher Fast Cast and SCHs with more charges and a Sublimation that can convert up to 12 HP>MP per tick doing everything that a level 75 RDM/SCH did and then with Cure V and other new spells mixed in.

What does that leave WHM outside of Abyssea? RDMs and SCHs cast faster than a WHM while getting access to tools that allow them to be more than just a healer. WHMs will still have the greatest cures per cast without a doubt in both actual and potential cured(Afflatus Solace Stoneskin) with a Cure V. Will a 1100~ Cure 5 and a 275 Stoneskin be necessary? Generally not. Will a Cure VI be necessary with its even bigger numbers? Absolutely not. Will WHMs be able to get back as much MP as a RDM or SCH with /RDM or SCH? Again absolutely not, though is it necessary for a WHM to have as much MP as them? Maybe or maybe not. Only time will tell for that one.

So what exactly is WHM's role outside of Abyssea when RDM and SCH both out perform it? The same role that it has had even before Abyssea. The need to have a dedicated healer with a big "oh shit" button. But when you give RDM and SCH Cure V, the need for a WHM greatly diminishes.



Inside of Abyssea the need for Cure V becomes apparent. Against NMs that like taking chunks of up to 1k and up HP per swing makes RDM and SCH just can't cut it. You have RDMs and SCHs fumbling through Cure III and IV to try to make up the difference and always trying to play catch up. At the same time the enmity generated is skyrocketing due to the amount of Cure IVs expended.

Does this justify RDM and SCH getting Cure V then? I would still have to say no. Just from the recast alone from Fast Cast and Celerity would make WHMs almost obsolete due to the fact that you can spam Cure V. In that same situation where large cures are casted back-to-back, the WHM has to spam both Cure V and VI to do the same while generating significantly more enmity and MP consumed due to Cure VI. So now RDM and SCH can cast the best Cure faster than a WHM, but they still have the longevity to keep the Cure V spamming since they both have the new Refresh tools with the raise in level cap and that they don't have to use the MP inefficient Cure VI. On top of the fact that SCH can then produce greater Cure Vs due to Rapture.

WHM has always been the healer when it comes to situations where large amounts of HP needs to be replenished ASAP. In Abyssea the scenario is the same, just with larger numbers involved.

--

So like I said above, "I feel that with the current Cure V spell, RDM and SCH should not have it." People in other job folders here have discussed alternatives or possible changes that make sense and may be viable without ruining the current game structure.

-Raising the caps on all Cure spells. As well has making Healing Magic skill more important to the Cure formulas.
-Give WHM a Job Trait that lowers enmity of Cure spells. Change the enmity that Cure V and VI generates. (Though personally I like the idea and the direction it's going, I don't see it balancing the jobs enough.)
-Give access to Cure V through the use of atmas. (Again I like the idea, but don't see the balance unless the atma decides to give a penalty as well.)

With all said, I don't see a problem with PLD getting Cure 5 in its current incarnation.

[rog]

Tanks won't have 1400 hp at 99.

[Valkrist]

Tanks won't have 1400 hp at 99.

A galka PLD/NIN gained 79 HP from level 82 to level 90. Extrapolating on that, a level 99 galka PLD/NIN will have about 1633 HP without gear or merits.

A galka PLD/NIN gained a grand total of 148 HP from level 75 to 90. Is that 148 HP outside of Abyssea demanding a Cure V to make up the difference?

This still doesn't produce a viable reason for why a RDM or a SCH needs Cure V.

[rog]

A galka PLD/NIN gained 79 HP from level 82 to level 90. Extrapolating on that, a level 99 galka PLD/NIN will have about 1633 HP without gear or merits.

A galka PLD/NIN gained a grand total of 148 HP from level 75 to 90. Is that 148 HP outside of Abyssea demanding a Cure V to make up the difference?

This still doesn't produce a viable reason for why a RDM or a SCH needs Cure V.And how much from gear?

[Seriha]

What do I want for RDM? I just want a choice. If I feel like nuking today, I can grab my INT/MATK gear and go to town. If wanna melee, I can grab a good TP and WS set then have at it. If I feel like being more supportive, then I can /WHM and hang back, doling out the cures and status recoveries. I don't expect to be able to do all at once. All can be achieved with different flavors of implementation to help differentiate from other jobs.

What I don't want is that option being skewed so hard that a particular role is never possible. Pre-Abyssea, we were skewed far more toward WHM. All of WHM's added tricks really didn't mean much when all you were fighting were weak mobs that didn't (AoE) enfeeble. If you had MP, you could cure. There was no room for debate, you just did it. Post-Abyssea, we've skewed a bit more toward the BLM side as it's at least one part out of job that upgraded, but even so RDMs still get invited to cure parties, or worse, alliances. The melee side has never been a contender in the community's eyes because there was simply no incentive. I can't blame the community for that because SE's been rather hands off about making it viable.

I know the low-man obsession is the big thing now, and bringing more people to do whatever is essentially taboo, but if you can't get someone who can Cure V or VI, getting two people who can Cure IV is the next step. If enmity is a concern for longer fights, that's when you then start looking into more -enmity gear or put a THF alongside your healers to chip away their hate every minute. So, really, I'm not worried so much about RDMs screwing WHMs, I'm more worried about RDMs screwing RDMs trying to be more like them.

[Valkrist]

And how much from gear?

I'm sorry, just because you're factoring in the HP change from leveling and from gear will not cause a RDM or a SCH to suddenly need to be curing up to 900~ HP. RDMs and SCHs were okay with Cure IV before when it only cured up to at the very most 40% of a player's health with a cure that's around the 450 HP range. Because of Abyssea numbers, everyone believes that now all healers must be able to heal in the 900-1100 range with a single cure even though outside of Abyssea we're only talking about a gain of 300 HP, or more, through new gear and from leveling from 90 to 99.

[rog]

Sorry if i think we should be able to cure a greater % of someone's hp after gaining 24 levels, and not less.

[Daniel]

Prove that RDM needs cure V.
my RDM cannot out heal my BLM, QED.
my BLU outheals my RDM, QED.

[Valkrist]

The current trend that's following the Cure V debate even though it has not been formally mentioned is that this is asking for RDM and SCH to be able to only use Cure V like a WHM can (in Abyssea.) Otherwise I can't comprehend why the difference of 300, 400, or even 500 HP gained from leveling would ever make to why is there the need to be casting such high numbers.

Only in Abyssea is Cure V or VI used as the new standard, but only against NMs. Everything else you're methodically topping players off with Cure III and the occasional Cure IV. If there is ever the need to be casting Cure V concurrently outside of NMs that are inside or outside of Abyssea, then you're really looking at either an incompetence healer, or a lazy one (which is more or less the same as the aforementioned.) Cure III has always been the one and only Cure that any healer should be relying on for 95% of their total healing, unless you're dealing with NMs. Even then, Cure V isn't even used for that remainder 5%.


Sorry if i think we should be able to cure a greater % of someone's hp after gaining 24 levels, and not less.

This is exactly why SE has allowed so many jobs to suddenly gain access to Cure Potency gear with the raise in level caps. Every job that can use the Surya Staff, as well as other gear like the Sepentes set, will continuously gain more potency to make that "percentage loss" not as significant.

I can't help but think that WHM deserves to be able to get Cure VII with this statement. After all, WHM's ability to cure a percentage of a player's HP is steadily declining as well.

[rog]

I can't help but think that WHM deserves to be able to heal even more with this statement. After all, WHM's ability to cure a percentage of a player's HP is steadily declining as well. I agree actually. Cure 6 should be buffed. I wouldn't be opposed to a cure7 that could heal over 3k either.

[Valkrist]

Sorry, I was editing my post a tiny bit after proof reading it again. So the quote isn't the same as what was you were replying to.

It's true that Cure VI is underwhelming, but that's besides the point of this debate.

[Tamarsamar]

If you want to swing a sword and cast magic, go level Blue Mage. RDM is never going to be accepted into parties to melee, get over it.

If you want to do nothing but heal all day, go level White Mage. RDM is never going to be accepted into parties to main heal, get over it.

[Frost]

The obvious solution here is to give Whm an A in enfeebling, Slow II, Para II, etc....

Trolling aside, RDM is just now realizing their limits, where there were none before. The reason this thread exists is because "We need a Whm" has come up more and more. Believe it or not, that's a good thing. For YEARS Rdm has been doing what Whm has and then some. Show me a WHM that can solo Suzaku, or any other HNM at 75.

There's no legitimate reason for Rdm to have Cure V or higher at this time, given the level of versatility the job already possesses. Why aren't you guys asking for Tier V nukes? Or Ancient Magic? Or Banish III/Holy?

You want Cure V to Eliminate the need for a Whm again, that's not job balance, that's job dominance. And we had that with Rdm for the last 8 years...

[rog]

The obvious solution here is to give Whm an A in enfeebling, Slow II, Para II, etc....

Trolling aside, RDM is just now realizing their limits, where there were none before. The reason this thread exists is because "We need a Whm" has come up more and more. Believe it or not, that's a good thing. For YEARS Rdm has been doing what Whm has and then some. Show me a WHM that can solo Suzaku, or any other HNM at 75.

There's no legitimate reason for Rdm to have Cure V or higher at this time, given the level of versatility the job already possesses. Why aren't you guys asking for Tier V nukes? Or Ancient Magic? Or Banish III/Holy?

You want Cure V to Eliminate the need for a Whm again, that's not job balance, that's job dominance. And we had that with Rdm for the last 8 years...Not having options is a good thing? Really?

[Frost]

Not having options is a good thing? Really?

You have options. You're just choosing not to use them.

Option A: use a job that CAN cure, cure faster, (arguably more frequently) that can also Enfeeble(Cripple really), Nuke, etc lowering the need for more cures/larger cures.

or:

Option B: use a job that can cure for greater amounts, but does not possess any real ability to impede the mob in any meaningful way or do damage to the mob either.

[Tamarsamar]

The obvious solution here is to give Whm an A in enfeebling, Slow II, Para II, etc....

Trolling aside, RDM is just now realizing their limits, where there were none before. The reason this thread exists is because "We need a Whm" has come up more and more. Believe it or not, that's a good thing. For YEARS Rdm has been doing what Whm has and then some. Show me a WHM that can solo Suzaku, or any other HNM at 75.

There's no legitimate reason for Rdm to have Cure V or higher at this time, given the level of versatility the job already possesses. Why aren't you guys asking for Tier V nukes? Or Ancient Magic? Or Banish III/Holy?

You want Cure V to Eliminate the need for a Whm again, that's not job balance, that's job dominance. And we had that with Rdm for the last 8 years...

THANK YOU.

Seriously, it's about time that we aren't putting White Mages out of a job or forcing them to level Red Mage any more.

[Mojo]

Dunno what's so hard to understand about it, but giving RDM & SCH Cure V would not put WHM out of a job. They have far too many other benefits that would make them superior. The truth is that inside Abyssea, neither RDM nor SCH are even viable options without Cure V.

[rog]

You have options. You're just choosing not to use them.

Option A: use a job that CAN cure, cure faster, (arguably more frequently) that can also Enfeeble(Cripple really), Nuke, etc lowering the need for more cures/larger cures.

or:

Option B: use a job that can cure for greater amounts, but does not possess any real ability to impede the mob in any meaningful way or do damage to the mob either.
Whm still has slow1, which caps at 29.3%. That really isn't that much worse than slow2.

If a dd was needed, a dd would be invited. Not sure why you even mentioned that.

Rdm can NOT cure faster than whm. They both easily cap cast time for cures.

They also cannot cure more frequently, since whm has both cure 5 and 6 which can easily be alternated for high hp cures very frequently, and then also cure4 as a third viable cure. Rdm only has one cure that's even worth casting.

The choice between rdm and whm as a healer is an illusion. Only one of them can really get the job done.

[Bigboy]

Dunno what's so hard to understand about it, but giving RDM & SCH Cure V would not put WHM out of a job. They have far too many other benefits that would make them superior. The truth is that inside Abyssea, neither RDM nor SCH are even viable options without Cure V.

I don't believe this is true. As a RDM, not only have I been a viable option all through Abyssea, but I am generally preferred over a WHM, even on NMs as I have so many more trigger spells.

That doesn't mean that I don't want Cure V. I just know that what I am asking for is broken and selfish on my part. lol

[Tamarsamar]

Red Mages are not dedicated healers. They never should have been, and they never should be.

And for everybody making the "inside Abyssea" argument . . . even ignoring the fact that inside Abyssea we can totally do other things beside healing . . . are you even thinking about when Abyssea is made obsolete one year from now, at the rate FFXI seems to be progressing?

[Daniel]

I think the point here is in that RDM was meant to be a support job capable of decent cures, but right now we are not any more capable than SMN, BLM, and we are outdone by SCH, BLU and DNC. What some of you don't seem to understand is that RDM was only predominant in exp parties. For end game WHM was just as popular as RDM, in some cases even more. Whm will still continue to be dominant because of spells like Curaga IV which costs only 230 mp (With AV3 +2 pants is practically free), as well as more potent bar spells.

[Bigboy]

Whm still has slow1, which caps at 29.3%. That really isn't that much worse than slow2.

If a dd was needed, a dd would be invited. Not sure why you even mentioned that.

Rdm can NOT cure faster than whm. They both easily cap cast time for cures.

They also cannot cure more frequently, since whm has both cure 5 and 6 which can easily be alternated for high hp cures very frequently, and then also cure4 as a third viable cure. Rdm only has one cure that's even worth casting.

The choice between rdm and whm as a healer is an illusion. Only one of them can really get the job done.

So you admit a deficiency on their part (This is a game where a few % make a huge difference). Then you go on to say that RDM doesn't cure faster that WHM... Well at this point, it's obvious you haven't been playing the job.

A cure that lands earlier for less saves more lives for one too slow to get there before death.

I could go on about how you don't understand that Cure V is nearly hate free and giving RDM a quick, spammable, low hate, huge cure would remove the need for any other healing classes in the game, but this information has been available for years now, and if you don't know how to look up the spell characteristics now, I cant expect you to go do so now, just because someone disagreed with you.

[Yekyaa]

Red Mages are not dedicated healers. They never should have been, and they never should be.

And for everybody making the "inside Abyssea" argument . . . even ignoring the fact that inside Abyssea we can totally do other things beside healing . . . are you even thinking about when Abyssea is made obsolete one year from now, at the rate FFXI seems to be progressing?

This has become nothing but a flame war with WHMs complaining that they have to level RDM to compete.

There was a previous post asking why we don't bug em for Tier V... the answer to that is, it's because we got Tier IV spells. The natural progression of our given skill has not been broken, however with Healing Magic it has been.
White Mage is NOT the only job with Healing Magic skill. SMN and BLM don't get Healing Magic skill natively and they can cure just as well as I can in Abyssea (SMN more so because of the addition of Carby).

It's past due on Cure V and it has NOTHING to do with replacing WHMs. Honestly I don't like main healing, but when I'm asked to do it on RDM because of the other options I bring to the table (this is with the currently existing Cure IV only) it gets to be frustrating. It's something I've noticed RDMs are lacking, and that my original motivation. The White Mages thinking we're trying to replace them need to get their "I need to be special" stick out of their rears. There's more than one tank job, there's numerous other DDs, there's more than ONE healing job. WHM isn't the only one. Stop treating it like it is. There are others here as well. As far as competition, this never was a competition. It's not like we're all sitting in Port Jeuno now with our flags up looking for a party to get us that last merit point. Competition isn't even in the mix anymore.
My Linkshell brings WHMs when it's necessary (read: Cure IV just doesn't cut it and the extra -na spells are a bonus).
The problem is, there's no freakin' WHMs wanting to join LSs. In this case, give me SOMETHING in regards to healing than some less than optimal Cure Potency gear and a Cure IV spam. Make Healing Magic MATTER even. SOMETHING.

[rog]

So you admit a deficiency on their part (This is a game where a few % make a huge difference). Then you go on to say that RDM doesn't cure faster that WHM... Well at this point, it's obvious you haven't been playing the job.

A cure that lands earlier for less saves more lives for one too slow to get there before death.

I could go on about how you don't understand that Cure V is nearly hate free and giving RDM a quick, spammable, low hate, huge cure would remove the need for any other healing classes in the game, but this information has been available for years now, and if you don't know how to look up the spell characteristics now, I cant expect you to go do so now, just because someone disagreed with you.
Yes, obviously rdm is a better enfeebler.

lol? Rdm easily hits 50% fast cast, and whm hits -50% cure cast time (or some combination of -cct+fc). These are the caps, and neither job has an advantage.

Not sure why hate really matters much. Unless there is a hate reset, or you're also nuking a lot, it doesn't matter, and even then, rdm can easily survive whatever might be attacking us, so it's not a big deal.

[Tamarsamar]

Really, a lot of us are simply scared, possibly even irrationally, of a return to the ToAU days, which, really, I can only think of one person who really wants that . . .

I suppose a lot of it's unfounded, given that subbable Convert and Refresh means that we won't necessarily outlast everybody and their mothers any more. I'd personally still rather get Fencer before Cure V, though . . .

Also, I laugh at anybody who's worried about generating hate on RDM--we seriously can't generate hate if we tried (see: RDM tanking thread).

[Valkrist]

Personal opinion, if RDM got Cure V, I wouldn't invite a WHM. You would have someone that more or less does the same thing as WHM and then they're capable of Refresh II and stacking heavy debuffs on the target. The only time WHM would become useful is if magic damage taken was involved. You're certainly not inviting a WHM for their Cure VI, or slightly bigger Cure Vs.

I feel that this argument is really nothing more than RDMs and SCHs wanting to main-heal against high damage doing NMs, which again has always been the role of a WHM even at level 75 cap.

The entitlement argument really doesn't have any sound ground which I hear a lot of. It's like players saying that since they've played FFXI from day one deserve 10 million gil for every year that they've been playing. Sure it'd make those players extremely happy and the other players jealous, but I can not see the entitlement argument being there for anything but to cuddle one group of people.

Again, I'm a level 90 WHM, RDM and SCH. I enjoy playing those jobs and would love to see improvement to all three, but I would hate to see an improvement to a job that doesn't provide a sound reason to why it needs said improvement when it significantly impacts another job in a potentially negative way.

I'm not discounting that RDM and SCH shouldn't get a bigger Cure than Cure IV, but asking for Cure V most definitely effects WHM in a very negative way. I'm sure people are going to make fun of that statement and say something along the lines of, "so you want us to have a cure 4.5 then?" In a sense, yes. Cure 4.5 would most definitely be a new spell that fits into the groove between Cure IV and V. Would the spell really be called Cure 4.5, probably not... I don't think SE would be silly enough to name a spell like that.

[rog]

Solace, esuna, etc guarentee that whm will never be too far behind rdm, and will always have some situations where they are better than rdm.

Blu already has a cure 5, and you don't see them taking over whm's roll. I wonder why that is.

Sch hasn't made blm useless.

More than half of the jobs are dd jobs. Why isn't this a problem?

Why does whm get to monopolize healing, when every single other roll has a minimum of 3 options?

[Valkrist]

Solace, esuna, etc guarentee that whm will never be too far behind rdm, and will always have some situations where they are better than rdm.

Using Afflatus Solace and Sacrifice, proceeded by Afflatus Misery to Esuna is not a game breaking set of tools though. Using Esuna means one of two things. One, the WHM needs to be at melee range to get the status ailments to be cured. Two, used Sacrifice to steal the status ailment and is planning on running into melee to cast Esuna.

From WHM experience, yes Esuna's a godsend, but is it necessary? No. It's a very nice tool that saves the WHM both time and MP while generating a lot of enmity in the process. Yes, using it frequently can quite easily get WHM to the top of the hate list. Also if you're talking about fights where spamming Cure V is necessary, a WHM being at melee is generally frowned upon.


Blu already has a cure 5, and you don't see them taking over whm's roll. I wonder why that is.

BLU having their own version of Cure V does seem unfair, but do you ask BLUs to be main-healer often when you know that they're generally spike damage dealers? BLUs also don't have the same kind of MP conservation that a RDM or SCH have to make them not as ideal.


Why does whm get to monopolize healing, when every single other roll has a minimum of 3 options?

I think you just answered your own question. The other "rolls" have a minimum of three other options, like you said. What other roles do WHMs have aside from being nothing but a healer? You certainly don't look at a WHM for debuffs, nukes or to melee. The only time one of those other rolls gets filled slightly is if you have a WHM that understands to Banish III undead to drop their special defense by 75% for up to 45 seconds.

[rog]

I think you just answered your own question. The other "rolls" have a minimum of three other options, like you said. What other roles do WHMs have aside from being nothing but a healer? You certainly don't look at a WHM for debuffs, nukes or to melee. The only time one of those other rolls gets filled slightly is if you have a WHM that understands to Banish III undead to drop their special defense by 75% for up to 45 seconds.
You missed my point. I said every roll has at least 3 options. I did not say that every 3 has 3 rolls. Melee dd include 17~ jobs. Buffing includes brd, cor, sch, rdm, whm. Nuking has rdm, blm, sch, blu. Ranged dd has rng, cor, sam (yeah, i know that's a stretch, but the option is there). Crowd control has blm, brd, rdm, blu, etc. Enfeebling has rdm, brd, blu, blm, whm.

Then there's healing. That has whm, and blu. And if you asked a blu to heal, they'd laugh, think you're crazy, and disband.

Why is this?


Using Afflatus Solace and Sacrifice, proceeded by Afflatus Misery to Esuna is not a game breaking set of tools though. Using Esuna means one of two things. One, the WHM needs to be at melee range to get the status ailments to be cured. Two, used Sacrifice to steal the status ailment and is planning on running into melee to cast Esuna.
I love how you ignored the real benefit of solace.

[Silvers]

RDM and SCH will still be the go to job for healing because they are still by far better at longevity of MP, especially now at level 90. Outside of Abyssea, the need to cure 900~ HP instantly has never been an issue to RDMs and SCHs before.

WHM has the ability for more longevity than you give credit for:
-RDM sub for Refresh and Convert
-Orison Pantaloons +1 Converts 2% of "Cure" amount to MP
-Orison Pantaloons +2 Converts 5% of "Cure" amount to MP
-Serpentes set
-Refesh body armor: Nobles, AF2, AF3, ect.


They had been able to do the job perfectly well while buffing the party with hastes and refreshes, all-the-while landing potent enfeebs at level 75. Now we're talking about having RDMs with Refresh II and higher Fast Cast and SCHs with more charges and a Sublimation that can convert up to 12 HP>MP per tick doing everything that a level 75 RDM/SCH did and then with Cure V and other new spells mixed in.

What does that leave WHM outside of Abyssea? RDMs and SCHs cast faster than a WHM while getting access to tools that allow them to be more than just a healer. WHMs will still have the greatest cures per cast without a doubt in both actual and potential cured(Afflatus Solace Stoneskin) with a Cure V. Will a 1100~ Cure 5 and a 275 Stoneskin be necessary? Generally not. Will a Cure VI be necessary with its even bigger numbers? Absolutely not. Will WHMs be able to get back as much MP as a RDM or SCH with /RDM or SCH? Again absolutely not, though is it necessary for a WHM to have as much MP as them? Maybe or maybe not. Only time will tell for that one.

So what exactly is WHM's role outside of Abyssea when RDM and SCH both out perform it? The same role that it has had even before Abyssea. The need to have a dedicated healer with a big "oh shit" button. But when you give RDM and SCH Cure V, the need for a WHM greatly diminishes.


There's no legitimate reason for Rdm to have Cure V or higher at this time, given the level of versatility the job already possesses. Why aren't you guys asking for Tier V nukes? Or Ancient Magic? Or Banish III/Holy?


You have options. You're just choosing not to use them.

Option A: use a job that CAN cure, cure faster, (arguably more frequently) that can also Enfeeble(Cripple really), Nuke, etc lowering the need for more cures/larger cures.

or:

Option B: use a job that can cure for greater amounts, but does not possess any real ability to impede the mob in any meaningful way or do damage to the mob either.

The ability to cure faster is arguable. Speed deals with how much you cure for, how fast you can cast, and your recast. I think the edge in speed is still favors WHM/RDM for curing with the amount of -cure spell casting time gear whm has available (merits, Cure Clogs, Aceso's Choker, Orison Pantaloons +1/+2). I do agree about how enfeebling is overlooked at times at how it can make things easier.

If things outside of Abyssea stay about the same with content outside of Abyssea, then you two would be right. With levels rising and expecting new future content to be challenging (be it Abyssea or not), I'd think Cure 5 is and will be needed for more than just WHM. RDM are asking for a bit more, some would like to see their melee abilities boosted. There was point made in the SCH forum about divine magic skill that applies to RDM stating,

There is no reason for having skills without spells to go with them. It's like having a native weapon skill rating on a job, and your job can not equip any weapon associated with your skill.

Even though RDM has an E rating for divine magic, is it too much to ask for SE to give use at least 1 divine spell again?


So like I said above, "I feel that with the current Cure V spell, RDM and SCH should not have it." People in other job folders here have discussed alternatives or possible changes that make sense and may be viable without ruining the current game structure.

-Raising the caps on all Cure spells. As well has making Healing Magic skill more important to the Cure formulas.
-Give WHM a Job Trait that lowers enmity of Cure spells. Change the enmity that Cure V and VI generates. (Though personally I like the idea and the direction it's going, I don't see it balancing the jobs enough.)
-Give access to Cure V through the use of atmas. (Again I like the idea, but don't see the balance unless the atma decides to give a penalty as well.)

With all said, I don't see a problem with PLD getting Cure 5 in its current incarnation.

Giving PLD Cure V as it is now ..... They would actually want the enmity. To give Cure V as is would mess with how PLD is played. Curing is a hate tool for them ... and now I sense you was joking.

[Quetzacoatl]

Personal opinion, if RDM got Cure V, I wouldn't invite a WHM. You would have someone that more or less does the same thing as WHM and then they're capable of Refresh II and stacking heavy debuffs on the target. The only time WHM would become useful is if magic damage taken was involved. You're certainly not inviting a WHM for their Cure VI, or slightly bigger Cure Vs.

I feel that this argument is really nothing more than RDMs and SCHs wanting to main-heal against high damage doing NMs, which again has always been the role of a WHM even at level 75 cap.

The entitlement argument really doesn't have any sound ground which I hear a lot of. It's like players saying that since they've played FFXI from day one deserve 10 million gil for every year that they've been playing. Sure it'd make those players extremely happy and the other players jealous, but I can not see the entitlement argument being there for anything but to cuddle one group of people.

Again, I'm a level 90 WHM, RDM and SCH. I enjoy playing those jobs and would love to see improvement to all three, but I would hate to see an improvement to a job that doesn't provide a sound reason to why it needs said improvement when it significantly impacts another job in a potentially negative way.

I'm not discounting that RDM and SCH shouldn't get a bigger Cure than Cure IV, but asking for Cure V most definitely effects WHM in a very negative way. I'm sure people are going to make fun of that statement and say something along the lines of, "so you want us to have a cure 4.5 then?" In a sense, yes. Cure 4.5 would most definitely be a new spell that fits into the groove between Cure IV and V. Would the spell really be called Cure 4.5, probably not... I don't think SE would be silly enough to name a spell like that.

Finally, someone who sees it from my point of view.

[Valkrist]

You missed my point. I said every roll has at least 3 options. I did not say that every 3 has 3 rolls. Melee dd include 17~ jobs. Buffing includes brd, cor, sch, rdm, whm. Nuking has rdm, blm, sch, blu. Ranged dd has rng, cor, sam (yeah, i know that's a stretch, but the option is there). Crowd control has blm, brd, rdm, blu, etc. Enfeebling has rdm, brd, blu, blm, whm.

Then there's healing. That has whm, and blu. And if you asked a blu to heal, they'd laugh, think you're crazy, and disband.

Why is this?

I love how you ignored the real benefit of solace.

Ah I misunderstood your rolls. I took it as that each job (RDM, SCH, and BLU) have the luxury of having three rolls that they can play as.

I see your point that WHM and BLU have a niche for being "uber" healers because they have Cure V. But are you then saying that RDMs and SCHs can not be good healers without Cure V? If that is the case, why is it that they were always called out as main-healer in the past? WHM had Cure 5 back then and RDMs didn't, but no one seemed to mind. And then WHM had Afflatus Solace going for a bonus Stoneskin to potentially reduce further damage. Was WHM called upon even then? Not particularly.

RDM was used for its versatility back then while being fully capable of being main-healer. The level 90 RDM is even more capable today than it was at level 75. If you took a level 85 RDM and a party of 5 level 85 DDs out to Vunkerl Inlet (S) and exped on the IT crabs there, would the party instantly or even come close to dying because RDM doesn't have Cure V? Probably not unless the RDM wasn't a good healer to begin with. So if a RDM can do the job just fine here, why would you want a WHM there instead? You absolutely wouldn't because RDM gains back significantly more MP compared to a WHM, and then you have the RDM that can be placing significant debuffs on the monsters. That is if you don't have a lazy RDM there. Again, the argument becomes against NMs only where large cures are necessary.


WHM has the ability for more longevity than you give credit for:

It's true that the WHM today definitely has better MP management skills today, but you're comparing a job that at best gets 3 MP/tick from Sublimation, or 3 MP/tick from Refresh I. Then you stack on Serpentes set, AF3+2 body, Refresh hairpin and subligar, coupled with Owleyes. That nets you at best 9 MP/tick at best. RDM gets 11 MP/tick at best. SCH at 15 MP/tick at best. So in terms of pure Refresh, WHM is at the bottom.

It's true that WHM can go /RDM for Convert, but most WHMs will unanimously agree that /RDM is a subjob you only use if you're worried about MP management. Otherwise /SCH is superb in all departments. So generally WHMs MP pool will be about half of RDMs and SCHs.


Giving PLD Cure V as it is now ..... They would actually want the enmity. To give Cure V as is would mess with how PLD is played. Curing is a hate tool for them ... and now I sense you was joking.

As ironic as it sounds, I'm sure there would be PLDs out there that would love to be able to heal themselves for more than Cure IV when their dedicated healer can not, regardless of whether or not Cure V generates less enmity. Would Cure V be the spell they normally cast? Absolutely not. You're right that they'll be focusing on casting Cure IV either as a form of enmity generation, or to just heal themselves as much as possible. But if PLD had Cure V, I guarantee that all of them will be using it once they're in critical HP. If this breaks PLD, then Cure I-IV already broke PLDs against all other tanks since the closest comparable tank with a self-heal is MNK.

[Valkrist]

Double post, sorry.


I love how you ignored the real benefit of solace.

Actually I'm not. If you're relying on the Afflatus Solace Stoneskin to keep people alive, you're gravely mistaken. The 25% HP converted into Stoneskin mitigation (35% if you're using AF3+2 body) is not HP cured no matter how you look at it. It's HP potentially mitigated. You never look at a WHM and go, "I hope the SS from their cures keeps me alive!" It's not something to be relied on. So the argument goes back to only against the NMs where you have to spam large Cures back-to-back.

If you take a look at SCH, they're currently second best healer since I'm not really counting BLU (sorry BLUs.) They're getting 450~ Cure IVs and then Rapturing those into 675 HP Cures. Yes they too do ask for Cure V, but no where close to as loudly as the RDMs because they have something that's comparable to a "Cure 4.5."

[Daniel]

Personal opinion, if RDM got Cure V, I wouldn't invite a WHM.
Right now almost everything in relevant end game can be killed by a whm and a mnk. You make it sound like suddenly whm won't be able to do that anymore if rdm has cure V.

In terms of spell cast, as stated many times there is more than enough cure speed equipment to meet cap with /rdm.

MP issues? Sub rdm, convert, refresh, then there are also the pants which assuming you aren't wasting cures should give you almost 40% of your mp cost back instantly.

As far as useful enfeebles, whm has slow and para already, not to mention higher native mind and more access to +mnd gear.

Finally there is nukes... ask any RDM there nukes don't do shit when it matters, I know I have some pretty good nuking gear and capped skill + merits, and yet on most t2 my nukes are nothing more than a chance for the tank to die.

[Mojo]

I think that, again, it would do everyone good to actually compare the two jobs in a completely factual way to assess how different WHM and RDM are instead of making hasty generalizations. I'm actually quite surprised to see so many people thinking that RDM would even have an advantage over WHM in regards to healing if RDM had Cure V. I guess I'll break it down for people again.

To begin with, between Solace and better gear options, WHM Cure spells are going to be around 50% more efficient than RDM Cure spells. That's a tremendous difference, probably enough to make up for the difference in refresh by itself (which I'll address later.) WHM also has large Curaga spells which, if needed, are extremely useful and even without the benefit of Solace still eclipse the Curaga MP and enmity efficiency of RDM Curaga (Cure V doesn't work with Accession, btw, and I wouldn't even say that Accession Cure IV is a viable option due to enmity issues.)

Next up is damage mitigation. WHMs have a more potent Shell and can add up to 20 MDB. While the precise results of those do vary with how much other MDT+/- and MDB+ the tanks/melee already have, the result on a vanilla tank (no MDT or MDB) is a reduction any magic type damage that they would have incurred to 72.6% of what they would have taken with just a RDM's Shell V.

Now for something that I'm surprised hasn't received more attention - Auspice. A WHM with Orison's Duckbills can grant a +20 Subtle Blow buff to everyone in their party (both melee and mages.) Subtle Blow is perhaps one of the most overlooked traits in the game. I do a lot of tanking and I can tell you that it's a very valuable trait and +20 alone puts you at 40% of the Subtle Blow cap. It opens up a lot of interesting possibilities, like a WAR tank with capped Subtle Blow who doesn't have to give up a 6 hit build or even capped Haste. I could really could write paragraphs about why Subtle Blow is so great but I don't want to veer off course too much.

Lastly, there are countless other abilities that others have brought up. Regen spells, Cura, Esuna. All of those spells and abilities are just icing on the cake to me though. They're pretty neat but not nearly as useful as what I've just outlined.

Now, RDM, on the other hand, has more potent debuffs (Paralyze II, Slow II, Dia III, Bio III and Addle namely), although I wouldn't say that the difference in potency between any of these spells and the WHM equivalents are anything to write home about, I'd pretty much lump them in along the lines of Cura, Esuna, and Regen spells. Saboteur, however, is pretty good. It's amazing in fact. It will allow you to more or less double the potency of one of your debuffs, which is almost always going to be Slow II. So if you're ever going to talk about RDM debuffs, you mostly should be talking about this.

Next up is Refresh II. Refresh II and Saboteur are more or less the only reasons anybody should ever be talking about RDM. If offers 6(7) MP/tick, which is 3(4) more than Refresh I which WHM obtains through their subjob.

Now, for a refresh comparison. Between Orison Bliaud +2, Wivre Hairpin, Serpente's Sabots/Cuffs, Stearc Subligar, Moonshade Earring & Owleyes WHM can get 7 MP/tick refresh through gear alone. RDM subjob opens up another 3 MP/tick as well as Convert. So you're left with 10 MP/tick refresh without any kind of atma and Convert every 600 seconds if you need it.

RDM, through Duelist's Chapeau (or Wivre's Hairpin), Estoqueur's Sayon +2, Serpent's Sabots/Cuffs, Stearc Subligar amd Moonshade Earring can achieve 6 MP/tick refresh. Adding onto this, with their AF3+2 legs of course, is a 7 MP/tick refresh spell. I suppose you can throw in some Convert merits for an end result of 13 MP/tick refresh and a convert every 510 seconds if you need it.

tl;dr

Hard to really summarize everything I just wrote succinctly, so I'm not even going to try, but if you did read everything I wrote and understood it all then there really shouldn't even be a question as to whether RDM would even pose a threat to WHM with the addition of Cure V. They get a little bit more refresh, but it's not nearly enough to topple the other tremendous benefits that WHM brings to the table. It's not even a close competition. The difference in vanilla refresh becomes even more marginal when atma and the presence of other jobs that can add even more refresh are added to the equation. Honestly, the preference of RDM over WHM in any circumstance ended immediately when WHM was given the option sub Convert and Refresh I.

Lastly, to all you dudes saying you used RDM as a healer on Abyssea NMs and were successful. Congrats. You fought a weak NM that a NIN/DNC might have been able to solo. You also came on the wrong job because a BLM can heal just as well as you and has more access to amber procs.

[Valkrist]

Mojo, everything you wrote is almost line for line the same thing as what I've been saying in what a WHM can do in comparison to a RDM. I'm not calling stealing of work, but agreeing with most of what you've said.

WHMs will absolutely not have a 50% Cure Potency bonus over RDMs. That's saying that the RDM won't even have a Light Staff. For a well geared RDM, they're looking at 35% Cure Potency bonus. So comparing well geared WHM to RDM (in terms of Cure Potency) you're only looking at 15% difference. Given next update the 15% difference will only decrease due to WHMs already capped and Surya's Staff +2 will more than likely get more potency.

Auspice using Afflatus Solace and AF3+2 feet argument is a damned good one. I have no comment on this since you're 100% right about it.

Atmas should never be put into the equation when you're comparing the jobs, that is unless you're arguing an Abyssea only scenario. This is assuming that all content since level 80 cap to level 99 will always involve insane buffs to your stats, WS, and spells. If all content will boost your tank's HP from 1.5k to 4k, then by all means give RDM Cure V. Give them Cure VI. If content after Abyssea doesn't have the insane buffs through atmas, abyssites and cruor, then RDM can live without Cure V.

[Mojo]

I came up with the 50% number by adding the stoneskin that Solace provides. It comes out to be about that much.

[Duelle]

Blu already has a cure 5, and you don't see them taking over whm's roll. I wonder why that is.Because that class is designed and played as a melee mage with cures for emergencies (despite being quite potent and capable on paper) whereas certain people seem bent on trying to cram us into the role of healer? Not to mention few try to actually cram BLU into the role of healer. That's a hell of a lot of leeway right there.

[Valkrist]

If you factor in the 15% Cure Potency with the 35% Stoneskin, you're actually looking at a 101~% Cure Potency difference in WHM's favor. (You can't just add 15% to 35%.) With that said, automatically assuming that Afflatus Solace heals that 35% Stoneskin is wrong to do. The 35% is not cured, but potentially mitigated. The only time you factor in the 35% is if the tank is face tanking and will take enough damage where 30-45 seconds can't pass and the Stoneskin is eaten through.

I'm sure people will see this as, "OMG HE SAID WHM HAS 101% MORE CURE POTENCY THAN US!" It is very wrong to factor in the Stoneskin into the equation unless you're talking about fighting NMs where you're spamming Cure V.

If you're going to factor in Afflatus Solace, then you have to factor in the Phalanx that RDM can give to the tank. Even then, you're still comparing apples to oranges because you're then messing with the issue of how many times the tank was hit to make the healer have to cast Cure V. With that said, it's possible for a tank to take less damage with the RDM's Phalanx (or Phalanx II) than the WHM's Stoneskin. In the long run, Phalanx reduces a lot of HP that needs to be cured, potentially making up for the lack of a Cure V.

[rog]

Ingoring the stoneskin is just as wrong as assuming 100% of it is used. It may or may not be used. You need to consider a number of things to get an idea of just how useful it is:

1) is the person being cured subbing nin, or using seigan? obviously if they are, it will be much less useful.
2) if /nin, does the mob use frequent aoes?
3) if /nin, are they actually using utsu1, or just utsu2?
4) how often and for how long does the person usually have hate? Obviously ss does nothing if they don't have hate.
5) does the person have native stoneskin access, and will they just overwrite it with a new one as soon as they can?

etc.

It's difficult to get an accurate idea of just how much of it is used, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore it entirely.

If i were to guess, i'd say for a /nin dd, probably around 20-40% of the total effect is actually used. Otherwise without /nin it's probably more like 70-90%. Again, it obviously depends on the situation, hence the large ranges.



If you're going to factor in Afflatus Solace, then you have to factor in the Phalanx that RDM can give to the tank.Well of course. Why wouldn't you?

It's not easy to determine which job is objectively better (well, right now it is, but if rdm were to get cure5, then it wouldn't be so obvious, and then it would), and there are numerous variables that need to be accounted for. You can't ignore anything.


In the long run, Phalanx reduces a lot of HP that needs to be cured, potentially making up for the lack of a Cure V.The long run isn't always as important as the short term. Frequently phalanx amounts to little more than mp savings, which of course are meaningless. Phalanx will very, very rarely save someone from dying. Not to mention overhealing is done incredibly often, lowering any advantage. It definitely is very useful outside abyssea, where mp may be a concern, but inside, it adds extremely little, and definitely does not even come close to making up for a lack of cure5.

[Silvers]

It's true that the WHM today definitely has better MP management skills today, but you're comparing a job that at best gets 3 MP/tick from Sublimation, or 3 MP/tick from Refresh I. Then you stack on Serpentes set, AF3+2 body, Refresh hairpin and subligar, coupled with Owleyes. That nets you at best 9 MP/tick at best. RDM gets 11 MP/tick at best. SCH at 15 MP/tick at best. So in terms of pure Refresh, WHM is at the bottom.

It's true that WHM can go /RDM for Convert, but most WHMs will unanimously agree that /RDM is a subjob you only use if you're worried about MP management. Otherwise /SCH is superb in all departments. So generally WHMs MP pool will be about half of RDMs and SCHs.

Very aware of what SCH offers as a sub for whm due to leveled WHM, RDM, and SCH. Thought the benifits of the sub could go without say. You stated before that that outside Abyssea WHM is lacking in MP longevity, in response only stated /rdm beacause it out does /sch in that department by a slight margin. That's just "pure refresh" as you call it, but you still haven't taken in account the return whm recieves from AF3 pants +1/2. Healing for 400+ (cure4) you would get a return of 8MP+ with Orison Pantaloons +1, 20MP+ with Orison Pantaloons +2 (yes I'm low-balling the numbers somewhat). Using Cure 5, those figures can double, alleviating some of the mp burden for cures. Add that to what the your choice of sub does for you. SCH adds to lowering the net spell cost with Light Arts and Conserve MP. The average net MP cost for WHM/SCH for Cure 4 using AF3 leg+2 should be about 52-60MP (curing for 400-500HP with Cure 4 and not taking in Conserve MP into account, and yes #'s can get higher). WHM is better than fine with MP, but it will take time for people to get there.



As ironic as it sounds, I'm sure there would be PLDs out there that would love to be able to heal themselves for more than Cure IV when their dedicated healer can not, regardless of whether or not Cure V generates less enmity. Would Cure V be the spell they normally cast? Absolutely not. You're right that they'll be focusing on casting Cure IV either as a form of enmity generation, or to just heal themselves as much as possible. But if PLD had Cure V, I guarantee that all of them will be using it once they're in critical HP. If this breaks PLD, then Cure I-IV already broke PLDs against all other tanks since the closest comparable tank with a self-heal is MNK.

Before you stated RDM and SCH does fine without Cure 5 but see no need for them to have it. Then after you agree to the suggestion of changing the mechanic for Cure 5 to give to SCH and RDM by having it generate more enmity for jobs other than whm, you think it is good or in PLD best interest to recieve it in it's current form "just to have it". It offers little benefit to them in it's current state.Need more than what you stated to justify PLD having Cure 5 other than "to use when i'm with a healer does not have it". Giving Cure 5 to PLD as the way you state may not break PLD, but it shatters the arguement of why you think RDM and SCH should not get it. In that case why not give it to RDM and SCH "just to have it." as well, they both want to cure others and themselves for more then Cure 4. Then PLD with have a better chance being paired with a Cure 5 healer. Why not give SMN full control over spirits, and add Cure 6 to the Light Spirit's spell list then SMNs can pull out Light Spirits and use Cure 5 & 6 "just to have it". Nothing personally, I'm joking around a bit, but seriously what you're saying here with PLD is just backwards.

[Yekyaa]

The long run isn't always as important as the short term. Frequently phalanx amounts to little more than mp savings, which of course are meaningless. Phalanx will very, very rarely save someone from dying. Not to mention overhealing is done incredibly often, lowering any advantage. It definitely is very useful outside abyssea, where mp may be a concern, but inside, it adds extremely little, and definitely does not even come close to making up for a lack of cure5.

People actually merited Phalanx II or are we talking about RDM/SCH? PLD tank gets Phalanx natively, so maybe I missed something here. You guys are talking about giving Phalanx to the tank. Why? Slow II/Paralyze II are a much better option and probably a MUCH better damage mitigator if it could be actually measured.

[rog]

People actually merited Phalanx II or are we talking about RDM/SCH? PLD tank gets Phalanx natively, so maybe I missed something here. You guys are talking about giving Phalanx to the tank. Why? Slow II/Paralyze II are a much better option and probably a MUCH better damage mitigator if it could be actually measured.
/sch most likely. Many of us also have a merit in phalanx2, which obviously isn't much, but still helps. Or there's the occasional person that does 5/5 phalanx, 2 dia, 1-2 slow, 1-2 para, which is certainly an acceptable setup.

[noodles355]

I'd save accession for Aquaveil over Phalanx to be honest (For an Utsusemi tank of course). Yeah you got two charges but it's worthwhile saving one for emergancies. I suppose there is an argument for Phalanx2 but I prefer my merits elsewhere.

I would like to touch on Rog's argument about HP increases with levels. Someone stated a galka only got like 150HP going from 75 to 90, but Rog stated that you didn't take into account gear. You have to take gear into account gear, it's pretty stupid not to. After converting I now have to heal myself for about 300HP more at 90 than I did at 75.

There is an argument to be said for if you give Rdm C5 then people will make the mistake fo thinking it's the only worthwhile healing job. But personally I don't give woozles about what idiots who can't think for themselves think is the best or only job is available. All the bandwagon idiots used to think Sam was the only worthwhile DD. It wasn't. Same would happen here. All the bandwagon idiots might think rdm is the only worthwhile healer, but that doesn't make it true. Let bandwagon idiots be bandwagon idiots, make friends with non-retarded people and you won't have this problem.

Bigboy made a comment a few pages back about being preferred on Rdm over Whm because he has more trigger spells. Don't be idiotic. Every Trigger a rdm can do a blm can do too, and do more. Whm has triggers only a whm can do. Bringing a Rdm for a trigger job is a completely stupid idea.

Also Please stop saying a Rdm cures faster than Whm because it doesn't. Rdm caps casting time with AF Hat and Relic Body. Whm caps casting time with Rdm SJ, 5/5 Cure cast time merits (which every whm should have) and cure clogs.
If you think rdm can cure faster because of the recast time then you are again wrong. Rdm has one spell it can use, it has to wait 4 seconds with capped recast. Even excluding C6, Whm has 2 spells it can use (C5 and C4) back to back without having to wait on recast. Whm cures so much faster than Rdm and anyone who thinks otherwise just because rdm has fast cast traits is an idiot. If Rdm got C5 neither job would cure faster than the other. They would both have the same (capped) cast time, and they would both be able to alternate between two spells if recast time was an issue. Stop saying rdm cures faster. It just doesn't.

Rog was wrong on one point though, Whm doesn't get 3MP refresh in gear, it gets 6. (7 if you include Owleyes but I'd rather have my Terra's Staff)

[rog]

Rog was wrong on one point though, Whm doesn't get 3MP refresh in gear, it gets 6. (7 if you include Owleyes but I'd rather have my Terra's Staff)
Derp, forgot whm can use owleyes. Body, serpentes, and hairpin. Where is the other 3...?

[Supersun]

Derp, forgot whm can use owleyes. Body, serpentes, and hairpin. Where is the other 3...?

WotG earring would be 1.

Peist Cape?

[Protey]

Body 2
Serpentes 1
Hairpin 1
Subligar 1
WoTG earring 1
Owleyes 1

[Sp1cyryan]

I personally don't see a point to cure V, rdm is a decent healer without it, and I don't see why we should become pseudo-whms fulltime again, Giving us access to another raise however would be nice.

No, RDM and SCH are jokes healing with cure IV in abyssea and it is just a pain in the ass.

As for raise II it does not matter with XP being easy to get.

[Supersun]

The point of raise II is to have a second raise so we can raise people faster so we don't have to sit there waiting on the first one to count down. It would be especially useful if you are weakened yourself since raise has like a min cooldown, and with raise 2 we could at least get 2 people off the floor quickly.

[Crazze]

So this is something I am not understanding. RDM needs Cure V to be viable in abyssea while doing nm's. Not exactly true but if healing more than one other person, debuffing a mob, and buffing players, it is COMPLETELY true. If you disagree you have either never healed as a rdm in abyssea in more than a duo or never played RDM at all.

Then there is the argument that outside abyssea RDM would completely over power WHM and WHM would then be obsolete. But as someone (someone against RDM getting Cure V I might add said) mentioned, outside of abyssea the hp increase isn't significant enough for the need of higher tiered Cure spells. So giving RDM cure V would make whm obsolete how exactly?

Oh and I am so glad someone mentioned Auspice because I will always prefer a good whm that knows to use Auspice over a RDM that has cure 5. Mix that in with all the other goodies WHM has over RDM and you get the conclusion. RDM > WHM both with cure V is a false statement. Giving RDM Cure V will not break anything or make any other job obsolete. It will just give us more options.

And let me tell you as a RDM I want Cure V as is. Cure IV's may not pull hate in abyssea all that often since DD's are so strong but if I have to spam them outside of abyssea trust me hate is going to be a very big issue.

Hell most of the WHM's I know have other jobs leveled and would like to play them as well, but for the most part if have WHM leveled 80% of the time that's the job you will be on. I would really expect WHM's to be on the side of giving Cure V to RDM so that they might just be able to enjoy all those other jobs they have leveled.

Since abyssea has come out I get to play my RDM once or twice a month, so I wouldn't mind giving WHM's a little break and be able to help fill a curing role. At least then we could alternate but without cure V it's not really an option.

At most if RDM got Cure V they would be on par as a healer compared to WHM not better. WHM has certain abilities that would make it the better option for certain nm's or situations. RDM has certain abilities that would make it the better option for certain nm's or situations.

Saying WHM's would be less sought after or obsolete if RDM got cure V is probably the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time.

As for SCH getting Cure V, I say give it to them as well, leave the static enmity but like haste make it unusable with accession or SCH would probably out heal a WHM.

If you want to give it to PLD then that would be the case where your want to make the enmity the same way cure IV's enmity works.

Go ahead and tear apart my post I don't care if you can't see at least some warrant in my arguments you are just stubborn and I don't care what you think anyway.

Also if they implemented some other cure spell that isn't quite cure V I'd probably be happy with that too but I still think Cure V is the better option.

Another thing I was reading said something about phalanx? Who in the hell still has phalanx II merited? If your tank is PLD they phalanx themselves. If your tank is MNK all you do is cure dump them anyway. If THF or NIN(hell even DNC) if they are getting hit enough that they need phalanx they should just quit now.

[Skylark]

The obvious solution here is to give Whm an A in enfeebling, Slow II, Para II, etc....

Trolling aside, RDM is just now realizing their limits, where there were none before. The reason this thread exists is because "We need a Whm" has come up more and more. Believe it or not, that's a good thing. For YEARS Rdm has been doing what Whm has and then some. Show me a WHM that can solo Suzaku, or any other HNM at 75.

There's no legitimate reason for Rdm to have Cure V or higher at this time, given the level of versatility the job already possesses. Why aren't you guys asking for Tier V nukes? Or Ancient Magic? Or Banish III/Holy?

You want Cure V to Eliminate the need for a Whm again, that's not job balance, that's job dominance. And we had that with Rdm for the last 8 years...

Really?..... I still don't see how you can so easily argue that RDM doesn't need some higher tier cure spell. RDM can't keep up curing as is, there's no other way around it. Put on all the fast cast gear you can and whatever Cure POT gear RDM can equip and it's still not going to come close to amount of healing that a standard melee needs in abyssea. Tier V nukes really? They just recently gave these to BLM, I seriously doubt RDM will be getting the tier V spells any time soon. Ancient Magic sucks, even when leveling BLM the only reason to use any AM was in Kuftal doing timed SC / MB on crabs, RDM would really not have any need for AMs aside from proccing grellow. Even then you are pushing BLM a little to the side. Banish and holy would both suck on RDM, no solace to build a charge, and lolRDM divine magic.

[Vraelia]

Seriously.....you guys obviously don't pay attention to HP while within Abyssea. MNKs and WARs (possibly other jobs) can get over 2.5k+ easily. And since my Cure IV as RDM can only heal for 510 or so HP per cast, it makes me panic a lot. Because I always have to cast Cure IV and III, back and forth, TRYING to keep their HP up. And plus, I generate a lot of hate through this. It would be awesome to have a Cure Spell that doesn't give much Enmity. I would LOVE to see RDMs get Cure V. WHMs can get Cure VII for all I care. I just want another Tier of Healing for my RDM.

I am both a 90 RDM and WHM btw. I understand the need to give RDMs Cure V. This won't take WHMs away form getting an invite or doing things (seal hunting, stone hunting, ect) they'll ALWAYS have a role in this game. They are the best of the best on healing.

As for Raise 2? I would hope SE will give us this. And tweak the Abyssites that allows us to lose LESS EXP while in Abyssea, to make Raising necessary again. And possibly Tweaking Atma of the Apocalypse.

Also if SE gives us Raise 2, then hell, give WHMs Raise IV.

This bickering is obviously pointless. Give RDMs Cure V and WHMs Cure VII. And RDMs Raise 2 and WHMs Raise IV and be done with it. Everyone wins. lols

[Swords]

The only REAL purpose for Raise II would be, to allow us to raise multiple KO's faster. Considering the Exp update and Abyssea, there should NOT be any more concerns about losing exp anymore. Additionally, Raise IV woud be a bit redundant considering Raise III returns 90% of exp which is less than 300exp lost per death.

As far as Cure V is concerned, it would be nice to help bridge the gap in those desperate moments in Abyssea. I do not see it as a gamebreaker outside of Abyssea though. To start, MP is limited for both WHM and RDM outside of Abyssea, they can't infinately spam IV, V, and VI leisurely. Secondly, Cure IV has a bigger impact outside of Abyssea than in considering all jobs will have considerably less HP. And last, any group that does not need heavy curing every 5 seconds likely won't need to use a WHM anyways.

Don't forget most everything outside of Abyssea has not changed since it came around, so a new spell like Cure V for RDM won't break WHM outside of Abyssea because SE never did anything to really correct the original problem to begin with.

[Supersun]

And plus, I generate a lot of hate through this.

Why is this necessarily a bad thing? Sure it might suck if you are subbing /sch, but if you are expecting to take hate why wouldn't you just sub /nin instead? The difference between /sch and /nin really isn't that big inside abyssea where MP is more or less unlimited anyway. Which brings what I said before that giving Rdm Cure V would fix it, but is incredibly lazy because when you get down to it it would be better if different healing jobs would heal in different ways. I don't want to heal on rdm more or less the exact way I would heal on whm. I would just play whm if I wanted to do that. I mean there's other ways to heal besides "spike a huge low enmity cure." We had a topic similar on Allah where we discussed different types of cures, but I think it's a good idea to bring it up back here.



1) The simple cure bomb - just like the name suggests this is the spike cure that cure 5 is. I probably don't need to go into detail that much since this is what like 95% of all cures are. What does need to be discussed about it is the amount of enmity generated. There's 3 ways I can see a new spike spell give enmity to the player. Either using a formula to give like Cures 1-4 (it doesn't have to be the same formula though), give a static low amount of enmity like cure 5-6, or give a static high amount of enmity more like Exuviation. I believe that Whm should keep the low enmity spike cure to itself with maybe sch sharing it (though I think they should get other things). If Rdm were to receive more spike spells I would prefer them to keep a curing formula (it would likely have to be adjusted slightly). Pld on the other hand I believe should receive more cure spells with fixed high amounts of enmity.

2) The regen. Once again, we know these. These are pretty much the other 5% of curing spells we have. Their main purpose is MP efficiency. You spend a little now and to give that person like 5-40 HP every 3 secs for 1-3 mins for a fairly good amount of HP recovered for the MP spent by then end of the spell.

3) The HP buffer, aka. Stoneskin. This is where you give someone a pool of "fake HP" for a certain time limit whether that time limit is 5-15 mins with Stoneskin or a short time such as with solstice. While this is more only a bandaid compares to a spike cure the goal of this would be to give someone time to cure someone up to full HP without him taking any more real damage. At the same time though you have to be careful because if you had a Stoneskin that had the HP resistance of Cure V that would more or less be a better cure as long as the monster doesn't spam dispel. I mean why wait for the monster to actually hurt the tank when you can just keep a buff Stoneskin on him. There would need to be restrictions on this type of "cure" either with the max amount of HP it has, it's duration, it's recast, and/or it's MP cost.

4) The last one were really see in XI, the damage mitigation, aka the Migawari. This is once again something used to prevent damage your tank takes while you cure him to full HP. Keep in mind that there are different ways to handle damage mitigation such as Phalanx, Sentinel's Scherzo, Sentinel, Schurzen, or other ways. You can either mitigate damage completely, by a fixed amount by a set value, or by a amount that changes (usually decreases over time), and the duration of the effect can vary as well with it wearing off with an amount of hits or a set amount of time. I think a creative way to use one of these would be a Sentinel that doesn't decrease with time but by the amount or number of hits.

Now to start getting into the ones we don't really see in XI

5) The "Fast" Regen. Where regen is more concerned about MP efficiency and enmity, but doesn't do much for the current safety of your tank, while Spike cures tend to be more inefficient, but "when the tank is in red efficiency is the last thing on your mind." This takes a small step away from efficiency and more towards safety. This is the type of regen where you get something like 200 HP/tick, but it only lasts for 15 or so secs. Once again, not so great if the tank is in Red, but if your tank is in yellow or high orange after a TP attack with no threat of a follow up this would be a perfectly viable spell to use.

6) The Mix. This combines the fast regen with a spike spell. It takes another step away from efficiency towards safety. Basically imagine a Cure IV that gives a regen effect that restores 100/tick for 9 secs. It's a pretty safe way to protect your tank especially when you can alternate a lower spike spell unless the monster is planning on doing back to back TP attacks. Now there are other things you can mix as well such as solstice that mixes a spike cure with an HP buffer and exploring some other types of mixtures would certainly be interesting. The most common mixture in other games like mentioned above is mixing a spike cure with a fast regen.

7) The variable cure, aka the Cura (alright technically this is in XI, but with the amount of time most people actually use misery >.>). Like mentioned before in an example for Curasa, this could be a spell that recovers HP based on an amount of damage your tank takes, whether a pool of damage builds over time giving you a "rainy day cure," or it could restore a portion or all of the damage he took from his last big attack (I mentioned big attack here since there would have to be some minimum damage restriction, likely a percentage of his HP, otherwise the spell would be near unusable since monsters love to follow their painful TP attacks with a poke, and it would count the poke as the last attack otherwise). This is a pretty powerful yet balanced cure if you tweak at the numbers right in a sense that any job that gets this could easily have enough power to main heal regardless of the monsters toughness (unless it's the ONLY cure they have or their other methods of recovering HP are like cure 1 on an abyssean monk bad), because the cure scales up with the toughness of the monster. As long as your tank survives you can use your spike cure to protect him.



Like I mentioned before sure giving us cure V would "fix" Red Mage healing, but it's such an uncreative way to do it when they can do so much more and actually create new unique healers that play differently. We don't need multiple jobs that all heal the exact same way. We need healers that each have their weaknesses and strengths and niches that they specialize in. If I were to give Red Mage certain cures mentioned above I think the job reflects more with a formula spike cure, an HP buffer, damage mitigation, and a "mix" cure. Sch in my mind mixes well with Spike Cures, Regens, and Fast Regens. Whm's style works well with most of the above except HP buffers and damage mitigation. At least that's how I more see the jobs myself. Other peeple may have other opinions and XI's Devs have their own image themselves. So when I say Cure V is lazy it's because there's way more then one to protect a tank.

[Atomic646]

Cure 5 wouldnt make RDM overpowered.. Cure 6 maybe but definitely not cure 5. I wouldnt mind if they double the enmity from casting it on rdm, we need a more powerful cure spell

[Luvbunny]

No to Cure 5, it should stay with Whms. Yes to Raise II. I rather SE tweak and make RDM the ultimate enfeebler and make our spells actually land on the endgame mobs. Maybe tweak Phalanx II as phalanxga and you can merit it to reduce damage up to 25%. And make ascension work with Enspells II.

[Supersun]

Maybe tweak Phalanx II as phalanxga and you can merit it to reduce damage up to 25%.

That completely defeats the point of phalanx. Phalanx reduces damage by a set number, not a percentage.


And make ascension work with Enspells II.

They would need to fix their accuracy before they did that otherwise everyone will never break 2 additional damage.

[Ezikiel]

I want cure 5 also but please oh please give us reraise. why not left Refresh 2 be used with accession as it sits SCH can out refresh RDMs somewhat. they can double the duration of refresh and hit everyone at once

[Luces]

I want cure 5 also but please oh please give us reraise. why not left Refresh 2 be used with accession as it sits SCH can out refresh RDMs somewhat. they can double the duration of refresh and hit everyone at once

It takes 2 charges in order to refreshga + double the duration, in other words make it last as long as refresh II. The rarity that you will actually be able to hit the 2+ people required to make it worth the mp cost and 4+ to make it worth the charge cost, since you can't include the sch's self since they should be using sublimation, doesn't really make the sch argument justifiable, and then also the use of 2 charges for this 1 thing will greatly reduce your ability to do other buffs, nuke, and switch between arts if needed. It would be more effective for them to increase the damage of their nukes with the charges.

Also Esotquer +2 set(+ the cape) gives your enhancing magic on others with composure a total 96% increase in duration, it also gives refresh I and II +1 more mp/tic if worn during end cast which, this alone allows you to refresh more effectively then a scholar does.

Also a scholar will be using sublimation on its self, but a rdm casting refresh 2 on one self with estoq. +2 legs, feet, and cape along with composure restores: 150(time)*3(composure)= 450(seconds) +30% duration(+2 feet and the cape)= 585(seconds amount of tiem refresh now last when casted on self, comes out the same if you apply 30% before or after composure), 585s/3s(3 seconds =1 tic) = 198tics*7mp/tic(emp+2 pants)= 1365 mp restored to ones self with one refresh 2. 10% less duration with +1 boots. Which is most of my mp outside of abyssea depending on my set up, which sublimation can not do.

[Kuvo]

Instead of just giving us cure 5 i think they should add a second tier to merits with different spells to get or maybe different job abilities that can enhance our skills. I do think that SE will give us cure 5 anyway before lvl 99 because we haven't gotten a cure spell since lvl 45, that will be over 50 levels up to 99 with no other cure spell. They will also give whm more cure spells too so the balance won't be off for both jobs. But overall I think more merit choices or a few more spells. Either way I can't wait to see what SE has planned for our job.

[Imole]

Cure 5 isnt "Neccisary outside Aby" but honestly i think most people concerened with RDM getting cure 5 that are actual RDM's is because they dont WANT to be Main healers. Those that do want it that are RDM's isbecausethey dont wantto have to spam cures. If you are spaming cure3-4 on a tank and you got others being hurt someones gona die. WHM can drop a cure 6 on one and a cure 5 on another and still have time to rest after. Even with cure 5 i highly doubt RDM will surpass 700ish cure without alot of cure potency gear. Either way it goes cure 5 vs. cure5 a WHM will still be king. Not 1 single RDM in this forum wants to take a WHM's job because that job sucks. But the versatility of RDM certainly could help suport that said WHM much better with cure 5. That being said what i wpould love to see is better buffs to stoneskin or posibly stoneskin 2 increse the caps or somehting. i know as a BLM/RDM on most NM's my SS will last maybe 1.5 hitsat most "Hits that dont remove any of the enmity i just generated to get the hate".

[rog]

Cure 5 wouldnt make RDM overpowered.. Cure 6 maybe but definitely not cure 5. I wouldnt mind if they double the enmity from casting it on rdm, we need a more powerful cure spell
The low enmity of it really doesn't matter. Rdm has more defensive tools than any other job. Hell, i'd rather it have higher enmity than lower, because it'd allow me to more easily grab hate if shit hits the fan.

[mystery]

I'm often in parties in abyssea and if I go RDM instead of WHM for high level enfeebles I'm also the main healer and Cure IV just can't keep up with the massive damage some NM's deal out. even as WHM it is a challenge with cure VI as only healer.

[Reimii]

Meh I don't really see the point in having Cure 5 on RDM (or SCH by extension...but that's another story). I play multitasking mainhealer RDM/SCH a lot and frankly having to spam C3/4 doesn't really effect me. But then again I'm probably one of those players who's in that mini group of rdms these days who actually has a healing magic set (with the addition of atmas in Abyssea) that pushes their cure potency to or above 50% resulting in 630+ Cure IVs over the average 450. If you have the fast cast gear to macro in before you switch to your healing magic set, getting the cures off fast shouldn't be a problem. If you're concerned about hate then switch MND gear out for Enmity down gear (like reign grip for a pax grip, and one MND earring for possibly a Novia if you can afford it). We're lucky to have some cure potency/MND gear that has Enmity down already on it (Augur's Jaseran/Errant Body and Tatsumaki Sitagoromo with the Potency and enmity down augments).

For those RDMs that don't want to be a main healer, you're going to have to learn how to be flexible because if you're in events where the alliance splits up to kill everything in the zone...and there's only one WHM? Guess who's keeping everyone alive on your team! Anyway, Cure 5 would be nice but it isn't nessessary. If you reeeeally want it then level WHM yourself and get more out of it.

Now on the note of Raise II, besides having a second raise for when you've died and need to raise people it is also useless. Besides in the event of a full wipe inside abyssea just Chainspell Raise and pop the next 2hr chest you see. Also I'm probably the only person who still gets IRKED when it happens but anyone who decides to die a lot because a) they're too lazy to watch utsusemi count/timers b) they just can't help nuking do hard c) decides to go out and do stuff weakened without healing themselves out of the red first be it with spells or temp items d) DOESN'T HAVE RERAISE...deserves a Raise 1 or to be left dead until a mage can get to them. Imo in most cases a weakened person is as usless as roadkill. (Of course this doesn't count those who have RR but are just unlucky when they get up. Poor souls. :<)

[hollowsgrief]

People need to stop CRYING that rdm cannot main heal as good as a whm, or nuke as well as a blm, or melee as well as a warrior! RDM is the "jack of all trades, master of none" that means they get a little of everything. RDM was my main and first job from the first time I started the game, they are not ment to put out nukes as powerful as a blm, nor are they ment to heal as well as a whm; they are a back up for everything, little bits here and there. Sure cure IV doesn't mean much inside abyssea but that isn't the point, RDM isn't ment to heal large amounts of HP, they are just there for that little bit of extra help when the WHM is caught off guard. So stop crying that we do not get cure V, and put your energy and focus into stuff rdm should actually get: AoE enfeebling magic (Silencega Paralyga, Graviga, Slowga, etc.)

[Supersun]

Because AoE magic is totally something that Red Mages "specialize" in.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Cure V, Raise II Where?On WHM where they belong.

[Satyr]

sorry to necro this post but I would be happy if they just reduced the enmity on Cure 4. Cure 5 would be nice but at the same time reducing enmity on cure 4 would be better. As it currently stands because we only have cure 4 we have to spam it go keep people alive which creates a lot of enmity. When we pull hate then we have to cure ourselves which in the long run is not only dangerous but makes us significantly more inefficient than a WHM.

[Ophannus]

Cure 4 is only sucky because in Abyssea people have 3500 HP. When abyssea ends people will go backt o having 1400~ HP and Cure IV can be maxed out with cure potency gear to be about 550 with the proper gear which is still decent. I can see SCH getting Cure 5, but RDM and PLD will probably be stuck with Cure IV.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

RDM get's Cure IV ~7 levels before both SCH and PLD. It would be an insult to not give them Cure V first.

[Ordoric]

youguys bitch about being psuedo whms and now you want cure 5 hmmmmm MAKE UP YOUR MINDS RDMS and besides sch should gain acess to cure 5 first now youguys can focus on enfebles your little more than backup heals now quit being greedy

[Daniel]

I think the fact of the matter is that the majority of us have come to terms with the fact that no one is going to let us mele, and enfeebles take all of 5 seconds to apply and maintain. The rest of the time we are going to be asked to main heal sufficient spells or not. Healing issue will be made even worse once we get out of Abyssia and the people willing to play whm drop off the radar because they lose that sexy 10-20 ticks of refresh. Not saying people will not want to play whm at all, but I know I know I won't.

[RaenRyong]

youguys bitch about being psuedo whms and now you want cure 5 hmmmmm MAKE UP YOUR MINDS RDMS and besides sch should gain acess to cure 5 first now youguys can focus on enfebles your little more than backup heals now quit being greedy

much although we dislike being "pseudo WHMs", we dislike being useless more.

Cure IV may be comparatively better outside of Abyssea, but if we assume new content is difficult, 550~ HP from a pretty maxed RDM is still laughable compared to 1k+ damage.

[Ordoric]

I'm not saying you should be useless however focus on the other side of your abilitys as it stands and please correct me if im wrong healing 1st whm 2nd sch 3rd rdm am i wrong ?

[Aaralyn]

With the announcements of the new non-abyssea areas/events, assuming that we're not getting crazy HP buffs in those, RDM wont need Cure V.

And with how things are with the new dev team, they seem to want jobs to excel at what they're meant to do. I will say RDM does need something. But I don't think it's Cure 5.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

youguys bitch about being psuedo whms and now you want cure 5 hmmmmm MAKE UP YOUR MINDS RDMS and besides sch should gain acess to cure 5 first now youguys can focus on enfebles your little more than backup heals now quit being greedy

SCH Getting Cure V would kill WHM, even with their Cure VI.

As an example:

WHM - Cure VI - 50% potency, 70 VIT and 150 MND = 1407
SCH - Cure V - 27% potency, 70 VIT, 100 MND, Light Weather, Rapture (available every 48 seconds) = 1447 --- With EAF+2 Hat that goes up to around 1600

Also SCH can cut the spell down in MP cost to less than Cure IV.

I include Weather as SCH can give itself it whereas WHM can not and stratagems are readily available with no problem. Whereas Divine Seal is 10 minutes.

To be honest in the list of things RDM needs fixing on, Cure V is last.

1. Melee
2. Actually being the best Enfeebler, not being it in A+ skill alone.
3. Supposed to be a master Enhancer but we have little native spells only we get.
4. Cure V and Raise II

[Aaralyn]

SCH Getting Cure V would kill WHM, even with their Cure VI.

As an example:

WHM - Cure VI - 50% potency, 70 VIT and 150 MND = 1407
SCH - Cure V - 27% potency, 70 VIT, 100 MND, Light Weather, Rapture (available every 48 seconds) = 1447 --- With EAF+2 Hat that goes up to around 1600

Also SCH can cut the spell down in MP cost to less than Cure IV.

I include Weather as SCH can give itself it whereas WHM can not and stratagems are readily available with no problem. Whereas Divine Seal is 10 minutes.



As WHM main, this would drive me crazy. WHM's cures with Orison Body +2 are better. A friends ls actually wont let her come WHM cause she doesn't have +2 body yet, cause they prefer the highest cureskin. Makes them sound insecure to me, cause I don't think it makes or breaks anything. But I can see how it would be nicer.

And just to stay on topic of RDM, it would be cool see to more melee Red Mage.

[Kuvo]

In all honesty I love the way abyssea NMs, VNMs, and Quest Clear NMs treat RDM. Also with the SE development team gearing each job to be better at their jobs makes things even better imo. I would love to see cure V added to our cure spell list and I feel rdm WILL be getting it. I don't know why when I speak to other rdms in abyssea ptys and in my LS they all have had similar experiences as most of you where rdm seems to be almost useless in abyssea. In my experience we are useless in regular exp parties but not in NMs and clears by anymeans. Sure it's not often for us to be used in proc but we can if needed but I'll tell you that there were countless times when I saved a tank, or whm getting too much hate and I have the mob so enfeebled that it almost can't do shit. I love the fact that atma's and the new gear for rdm focus on our enhancing and enfeebling skills. We just have to use them.

I know it only takes a few secs to cast, land, and keep up enfeebles but thats when we need to focus on supporting the rest of the pty by sleeping adds (if any) haste, and the normal things. Adding cure 5 would be perfect for us as a support mage to help out the whms or schs in main curing and not a main source to replace whm.

This is just my opinion and my experience which I honestly love how abyssea is. Sure it may have hurt some jobs and low levels but it's an MMO and things have to change we just need to learn how to change with it or move on. For now i'm very happy with what SE has been doing with the game and can't wait for more content threw the rest of the year.

[blowfin]

Meh, id be surprised if RDM didnt get Cure V before 99 anyway.

[Felren]

RDM is............THE........... enfeebler

WHM is...........THE............healer

Enfeebling a monster reduces the damage it does to your tank

Healing your tank makes the tank...live


Sounds good!

Abyssea[

However, many strong NMs are immune to a few enfeebs, making rdm a lot less useful suddenly.... then those rdm can also not heal through the damage the NM does since it cannot be enfeeb'd easily/at all by many spells

Whm can heal through the damage the NM does to the tank with ease without the monster even needing to be enfeeb'd
]

Enfeebling in many places can fail easily, and be useless.
Healing other than for zombie status, does not fail......

Thanks to this trend, tanks mass up on HP atmas in abyssea on stronger mobs, and have an artillery of whms to bomb their tank with heals. While the rdm can't enfeeb the insanely powerful monster, and pulls threat like crazy when spamming cure IV...

This isn't balanced :\

Root of the problem- Enfeebling fails, healing really doesn't. Making whm king(or queen) as a support in abyssea. Rdm either needs cure V, or to be able to enfeeb monsters so its actually worth coming rdm instead of bombing 1.4k+ cures as whm.

[Aaralyn]

RDM and WHM were unbalanced for years before. WHM wasn't wanted for merit parties. I don't think it will kill RDM to have WHM be preferred over it for abyssea. With the revamps to dyna and the new battlefields, people might not be living in abyssea any more. Outside abyssea WHM barely even needs Cure V, let alone Cure VI.

[Carth]

So far in my experience in Abyssea it's mostly a toss-up. Usually a RDM's niche is healing, but when there are 2-3 WHMs things start getting hazy for what role you're considered for.

So far I've been pulling, sleeping mobs, emergency curing, and the occasional nuking. I melee if there's absolutely nothing to do.

Cure V and Raise II would be nice to have, and I expect Cure V before 99, but more as a novelty. I don't think we -need- it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Whm still trumps Rdm in Cure potency, efficiency on cures with Emp legs, Cureskin from solace/emp body, has better barspells with relic/blessed/emp body/beneficus, aoe stat ups, and esuna/sacrifice/misery. I don't see Cure V going to others suddenly obsoleting Whm being a main healer at all, it will just allow other jobs to get by. Especially if they just change it so for not Whm Cure V gives normal enmity.

[Daniel]

wtb better heals on rdm than I have on my blm.