Red Mage Melee Ideas

[Chuk]

Hello once more, today is a busy day with this being my 3rd post today alone! Well the subject of Redmage melee has been debated for a long long time. You always get two groups that say the same things. Group A says "RDM iz mage, u cast rfrsh nao". Group B says "I can swing a sword! Lemme at em!" In my eyes, both sides are right.

So where does that leave us? Split in the middle. But thats the thing, redmage makes quite the useful job! The problem is the skills and spell available to them dont work well with each other. And thats why im about to propose the following...............

New job abilities (because you know, RDM only still has about 4, including two hour)

First off, Fencer. Yeah thats right, RDM SHOULD NATURALLY HAVE FENCER. But not just 1 rank of it, no no no no........ they need at least 3 ranks of it. Maybe more. Critical attacks are just that important to making a redmage more than a lolswordsman.

Next would be a jobtrait that works with En-spells. I would figure casting an En-spell on self would create a DMG bonus to the RDM based on enhancing magic skill. Yeah thats right, instead of just getting that smidge of damage from magic, this should be a physical bonus to the weapon in your main hand. En-2 spells should have a GROWING damage bonus based on how far along the elemental damage bonus is. This would add some pep to damage.

Finally i would think a set of job abilities that actually have to deal with swinging your sword and casting are in order. Something along the lines of formless strikes. But for weapon skills. Like so.

A: Job ability: Piercing Blows: Next weapon skill performed by the user deals non-elemental damage instead of physical damage (only works with physical weapon skills, sorry sanguine blade) Recast: 2 minutes
B: Job Ability: Arcanic Assault: For duration, increase users attack by reducing users magic attack bonus completely. Recast: 5 minutes Duration: 1 minute (maybe 2, idea is like berserk)

So far thats about it. There are probably more ideas I am thinking, but these would have direct impact on Red Mages and would make them considerable damage dealers. Somewhere.

~Chuk

[Lilia]

New (good) things for RDM ? LOL

[cidbahamut]

The discussion you are looking for is here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/294-On-Red-Mage-melee...

Enjoy.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The simplest solution for this which I'll keep saying is in Faith and Brave.

Scroll of Faith
RDM 99
Teaches the white magic Faith. Increases Magic Attack Bonus and Accuracy, and adds "Refresh" effect.

Scroll of Brave
RDM 99
Teaches the white magic Brave. Increases Attack and Accuracy, and adds "Regen" effect.

Can make them self-target if they must that overwrites each other so only one can be up. Refresh would be 3/tic Regen 10/tic

[Demon6324236]

The simplest solution for this which I'll keep saying is in Faith and Brave.

Scroll of Faith
RDM 99
Teaches the white magic Faith. Increases Magic Attack Bonus and Accuracy, and adds "Refresh" effect.

Scroll of Brave
RDM 99
Teaches the white magic Brave. Increases Attack and Accuracy, and adds "Regen" effect.

Can make them self-target if they must that overwrites each other so only one can be up. Refresh would be 3/tic Regen 10/tic

Agree with everything except the last part, make it scale, then it should be good. Refresh 1/100 Skill & Regen 1/40 Skill please. Probably should make the other effects scale in percents as well, for instance 1/25 Skill = 1%, so Brave with 500 Enhancing Magic skill becomes +20% Attack/Accuracy, same with MAB/MAcc. Just my opinion on it.

[Sunrider]

Brave and Faith are spiffy and would make nice adds, but I'd like for RDM's melee solutions not to be boiled down to the next new spell of the week we'd have to wait until our last ten levels to see.

There's so much, stylistically and functionally, that RDM has to draw from, that it boggles me it hasn't happened yet. For a hybrid job, our first real physical Trait doesn't appear until level 87 and we didn't see an Ability that addressed physical powers until a few years ago. Obviously, S-E is bound and determined not to share Fencer with... the magical fencer, but there is a light and fast magical attacker just waiting to be utilized. At higher levels accuracy isn't so much the issue it was in years past, but it might not hurt to acquire an Acc Bonus trait or two starting from the mid-game. And it would hardly threaten dedicated melees to have access to maybe Double or even Triple Attack. After all, THF has the latter, and no one would mistake them for being a "top" DD.

I have a powerful belief RDM could make it's mark by better utilizing--no--exploiting the hell out of En-spells. Start by beefing up the the damage breakpoints between skill levels for tier 1, and move on to giving tier two the same formula as tier one. Another idea would be to apply M. Atk to En-spells (allowing Enhancing Skill and Magic Attack to do for RDM what STR and Attack do for melees), and we even come ready-made with M. Atk Bonus traits. From there, allow tier 2 En-spells to proc on the off-hand. The worst that happens is that it caps out at max damage potential a little faster. Reconcile any accuracy needs with En-spells, granting a native Acc bonus to any weapon with an En-spell effect; just think of what this could mean for Accession and party play.

I envision a means perhaps converting physical damage completely into magical, perhaps with a third En-spell tier, or a couple of JAs, maybe one converting physical DPS to magical (with En-spells active, element appropriate), and another converting additional En-spell damage to physical DPS (again, with En-spells active, obviously).

Maybe a magical damage version of MNK's Counter trait or Counterstance: perhaps successfully dodged an/or parried attacks occasionally result in a returned attack, magic damage.

And finally... give us some of the Ex Weapon Skills, specifically Sanguine Blade. It's an insult that we don't get it natively.

[Demon6324236]

By level 99 I think RDM should have DW2, Attack Bonus 2, Accuracy Bonus 2~3, with that we should be ok, Brave & Faith should be high end level spells where our abilities become a choice, one or the other. Up until then it should be periodic trait levels between what I listed. And please, don't do what was done with THF with RDM's DW, I think that was a little stupid. The job has no Dual Wield until 83, at which point it finally gets tier 1, but tier 2 is only 7 levels later, and following that is tier 3 only another 8 levels after.

[Plasticleg]

Best way to unlock RDM melee potential:

1) Zone into MogHouse.
2) Select Job Change.
3) Select any other job.
4) Melee!

[Crimson_Slasher]

Shouldnt a solution fix the problem that its offered to you know, solve? You cant solve a overweight problem by reading about geography. Tailor the solution to solve the problem. If you are overweight eat better and exercise, dont do something completely unrelated and claim that it is a solution.

If you want to contribute, it helps if, you know, start by being constructive.

Ill just give you a few minutes to let that sink in.

As for melee fixes from me, i like -how- we melee now, just not -how well- we melee now. Stronger enspells are nice i agree, but another simple option is to copy a few jobs, like Ninja. How about a store TP spell? Just brainstorming.

[Sunrider]

If it's a spell for TP, it would be both simple and elegant to merely give us Regain. It doesn't have to be Embrava-level craziness, but something similar to Regen or Refresh.

Though personally, I don't think it'd be a crime to get an Auto-Regain trait, maybe around level 40.

[saevel]

An interesting idea that doesn't break anything is to give RDM an ability similar to QD for COR. It consumes our current enspell effect to deal elemental damage of the same type. Base it on INT, main weapon base DMG and MAB. The damage type would be of the same element as the current enspell. Give it a charge characteristic similar to what COR has on a 1 or 2 min timer.

Wouldn't be a "fix" but would add some useful JA's.

[Sunrider]

Honestly, I'm not proposing any single one thing as a fix.

Now, all of them at once? That'd start to look more like a fix. Unfortunately, it feels like the devs actively ignore any thread regarding RDM melee.

[Lilia]

If it's a spell for TP, it would be both simple and elegant to merely give us Regain. It doesn't have to be Embrava-level craziness, but something similar to Regen or Refresh.

Though personally, I don't think it'd be a crime to get an Auto-Regain trait, maybe around level 40.

SE answer 99%
Dotsspells for SCH, and sch have regain- RDM NEEEEEEVER BECOME T.T

[Rooj]

RDM isn't 50/50 magic/melee... it's more like 75/25 magic/melee and it's been that way in pretty much every FF that has a Red Mage.

[Sunrider]

Except in XI it's not even 75/25, it's closer to 90/10.

If it were really 75/25, there'd be a lot more serious comparisons with BLU or PLD.

[Rooj]

Dunno, I tank stuff a lot, and I melee while I do it.

[Sunrider]

Every class can melee at one level or another, but the point here is how well the class is prepared around it.

Typical melee classes get high physical stats and skills, a plethora of physically Abilities and Traits, a broad array of Weapon Skills, and broad melee gear access. A good example here would be Warrior.

A hybrid class would exhibit middling stats and skills, a few key Traits and Abilities, fewer (but key) Weapon Skills, the same for weapon and gear access. Examples include PLD, DRK, and BLU.

Then there's RDM. Sub-prime stats and skills, no physical Traits, only one Ability (introduced only in the last few years), the least desirable of the available Weapon Skills, and until the cap raise, scant options among weapons and gear.


I tank a lot of stuff and melee too (in fact, I melee almost exclusively--I haven't specifically backlined in years), but there's no ignoring the fact that melee was poorly implemented on this particular job compared to previous incarnations.

[ManaKing]

By level 99 I think RDM should have DW2, Attack Bonus 2, Accuracy Bonus 2~3, with that we should be ok, Brave & Faith should be high end level spells where our abilities become a choice, one or the other. Up until then it should be periodic trait levels between what I listed. And please, don't do what was done with THF with RDM's DW, I think that was a little stupid. The job has no Dual Wield until 83, at which point it finally gets tier 1, but tier 2 is only 7 levels later, and following that is tier 3 only another 8 levels after.

We have composure and enspell damage to make up for our B instead of A in melee skill. Temper is very powerful. Get an Excalibur and melt things. We are in a decent place for DD right now, but you have to work for it. The only thing everyone should be aware of on the RDM forums is that there are no free rides on RDM. Gear up or go play a job that naturally does it better. You get the benefit of being way tougher than most jobs. You don't get the benefit of being particularly great at anything, but you can be good at multiple things at the same time if you have good gear and macros.

The biggest problem RDM has is that it doesn't use a 2H weapon like real DDs do. Anyone that Dual Wields swords will most likely never catch up to a 2H DD. That is just the way the game is programmed. This isn't a RDM issue, this is a Dual Wield vs 2H issue.


RDM isn't 50/50 magic/melee... it's more like 75/25 magic/melee and it's been that way in pretty much every FF that has a Red Mage.

Depends on which one. FF1 my RDM uses an Excalibur and beats things to death, casts magic when appropriate, and doesn't squander his spell pools on unimportant things because he can just melee them down. 10 FFs later, my RDM does similar things...

Gear, gear, and more gear. That's what the RDM game has always been about. We have the pimp hat as a heads up that we need to pimp out our gear.

I only only have a couple real gripes:

Enspell 1s override Excalibur procs, Enspell 2s don't. The only time Enspell 2s are actually superior to Enspell 1s at all. Enspell 2s need to not suck anymore and need to deal a lot more damage.
Almace + BLU = ODD on physical spells and they get gear to actually use CDC well. RDM gets crickets.
CALL IT SOMETHING OTHER THAN FENCER, IDIOTS!
No Occult Accumen and SCH gets Immanence. Share.


You address the first and last bullet point well and we are in it to win it. Figure out how to make Enspell 2s much better than Enspell 1s and give us OA and Immanence and I will be very happy for a long time.

[Demon6324236]

Get an Excalibur and melt things.I'm trying ;; I'm only about 45 Silvers away.
Enspell 1s override Excalibur procs.Eww... guess its better to learn now than later but that still sucks. They need to just make Enspells stack with other additional effects, be it Samba, Excalibur, or anything like them.

[ManaKing]

It will never stack, it will always prefer one or the other. The best case is your enspell to be lower preference than anything you want to actually go off. *Looks at Excalibur and Ephemeron*

[Demon6324236]

It will never stack, it will always prefer one or the other. The best case is your enspell to be lower preference than anything you want to actually go off. *Looks at Excalibur and Ephemeron*

How does it proc with En2s? Only on double attacks and such?

[Psxpert2011]

Oh boy, you guys are missing the biggest point and issue SE has ignored since the beginning. You even missed the concept when Wings of the Goddess came out and never asked SE why. "Why hadn't they balanced Rdm out along with the intro of new jobs?".

If you don't know by now, your brain has really turned to mush for playing so much(or maybe it's just Rdm ego),lol! I'll give it another go, I just gave you a hint why I bring this up. It has to do with Dancer...

[jake3614]

RDM is to melee as WHM is to melee - these posts of RDM melee are nothing new and the ideas are quite stale. RDM to SE is a ENH/ENF magic guru with a penchant for swordplay due to it's original concept design by Amano, making it a Fencer-esque job, which has since been expounded upon.
This is not a job to be meleeing unless solo'ing, which RDM does have a knack for. It's similar to DNC having H2H skill - just because it can, doesn't mean it should and therefore focus on what it's prime directive is and not the batty player "fan boy" insane wishes.
BRD is in the same capacity, but I'd kick/hope they're "Brain Jacked" so fast as to kill them off my screen if they melee'd (this includes the new 2 hour ja AND the aspect within FFXIV).

[saevel]

Actually RDM's melee capability isn't in a bad position. It's gear options and WS selection that is hurting the most, not base stats.

Gear really hurts you, and while you can easily get 25% gear haste, your options to doing tend to leave you missing out in other spots. Though the new Limbus body helps in that reguard. Weapons aren't an issue, Excal / Almace / STR Swords are all the top of their weapon type. WS's are CDC and Req with KoTR being kinda wish washy.

SE just needs to stop leaving RDM off light melee orientated pieces, we don't need all of them but definitely need more then we have now. I understand no Thaumas but we should of been on Toci's, the Pink gear and a few other select items. RDM should also get access to all the Sword WS's, it's stupid that a job that use's swords and magic doesn't have access to the stronger magic sword WS.

[Kojo]

The simplest solution for this which I'll keep saying is in Faith and Brave.

Scroll of Faith
RDM 99
Teaches the white magic Faith. Increases Magic Attack Bonus and Accuracy, and adds "Refresh" effect.

Scroll of Brave
RDM 99
Teaches the white magic Brave. Increases Attack and Accuracy, and adds "Regen" effect.

Can make them self-target if they must that overwrites each other so only one can be up. Refresh would be 3/tic Regen 10/tic

You spellt "SCH 99" wrong.

[tyrantsyn]

We have composure and enspell damage to make up for our B instead of A in melee skill. Temper is very powerful. Get an Excalibur and melt things. We are in a decent place for DD right now, but you have to work for it. The only thing everyone should be aware of on the RDM forums is that there are no free rides on RDM. Gear up or go play a job that naturally does it better. You get the benefit of being way tougher than most jobs. You don't get the benefit of being particularly great at anything, but you can be good at multiple things at the same time if you have good gear and macros.


:D very well said.

[Demon6324236]

You spellt "SCH 99" wrong.

Except the part where RDM actually could use a spell like this, and SCH already has Embrava so it doesn't really need anything buff wise right now.

[Kojo]

Except the part where RDM actually could use a spell like this, and SCH already has Embrava so it doesn't really need anything buff wise right now.

My point was that whether it'd make sense to or not, if they added Faith and Bravery, they'd give it to SCH instead of RDM. If they'd give RDM (you know, the enhancing and enfeebling job) aoe enhancements and aoe enfeebles, as well as Cure V people would use it more. Maybe give a better benefit to Refresh II.

As for meleeing, I agree with the Fencer suggestion, and add giving a boost to magic acc that depends on your sword skill, like BLU. Also, why not give RDM Vorpal and Sanguine Blade? You won't be breaking anything. And while on the topic of RDM stuff, how about a new set of Shield trials BESIDES Ochain? Genbu's Shield is looking crusty after all these years even WITH the augments.

[Plasticleg]

Except the part where RDM actually could use a spell like this, and SCH already has Embrava so it doesn't really need anything buff wise right now.

it's going to be <me> target only if rdm gets it and blocked by accession, if it ever happens.

bet on it

[Lilia]

why so many pl say RDM is THE ENFEEBLING JOB?

BRD have much higher slow, have dot
NIN have more or lesser the same
BLU have so many more, death,magdef down,plague,and and and
the most jobs have enfeeling on ws or jas

..... rly rdm and -the enfeebling job- is not more true

[Plasticleg]

why so many pl say RDM is THE ENFEEBLING JOB?

BRD have much higher slow, have dot
NIN have more or lesser the same
BLU have so many more, death,magdef down,plague,and and and
the most jobs have enfeeling on ws or jas

..... rly rdm and -the enfeebling job- is not more true

because SE says it is

[Lastranger]

A lot can be done too buff the melee dmg on RDM.

One thing that allways bafled me is that Enspells dont stack on WS dmg, i wish Physical WS could get the added magic dmg on hits from enspells.
Ofc like was mentioned earlier SE need to FIX EN-Spell 2's so they can be used with multihit wepons.

Another thing i wonder about is why wasnt Enspell + effect added to sword elemental trials, surely it has room for it and would kinda make sense on the difrent wepons, like fire type sword would boost all enpell with fire element.
Would having STR +11 ATCK +22 Enspell (FIRE) + 22 broken the game?

Also think SE was super stingy on not allowing rdm dagger elemental trials.


I also agrea Rdm should get a natural way to get Dual wield, would make sense as a merit instead of curent merrits that should have just been scrolls.

However im also open for another type solution to counter some of the lack of DW problem in another way as rdm, we could
get a JT that takes Physical dmg done by main wepon and adds that to enspell as an additional amount elemental dmg when 1 handing with shield.
However that JT should have gear that further boost it to compensate for lost speed versus using /NIN with what is it 30% haste or so, like one piece give's a *1,5 effect if u got two of those pieces of gear u can get double your physical dmg added too the enspell, same JT should also bolster Spikes dmg quite a lot.

I think that might open the door slightly too the ability to swap out /NIN with say /WAR for more DA + attack boost or/DRK to utilize Attack bonuse+ SE + Absorb-TP/Str , im sure there are other combos too that might work like this, but key would be RDM melee would be magic focused but bolstered through melee stats.


Someone also mentioned a self enhancing magic that gives RDM Counter like effect, i agrea it would be nice for melee builds have it be called Revenge ( i know this one will probably be self only like Temper to avoid other melee getting it) and the return dmg done be Enspell dmg only, but let it get some TP on procced hit.

Also i think some higher tiers DOT and native access to the BLM only elemental enfeebles as well as new Enfeebles would be nice addition, not that im a fan off the DOT for 2 hours kite to death method, i just think the current Dot's dosnt scale well with current level/montster hp and deserve some boost. a higher tier enfeeble that did Blind 2/slow 2/para 2 in 1 cast would be nice, then couple it with 2 spells to do the Native element enfebles ( Rasp etc ) in a 3 in 1 cast ( the ones that stack with eachother.) and 1 Spell for Poisen4/Plauge/Weakens deffence( same as acid bolt effect ) as a way to quickly stack these spells on mobs and not waste less time on spellcast while melee.


Another way to bolster dmg would be to add a JA that when used grants Rdm 15-25% ja/haste and boost enspell dmg ( it could be called Brave and that shares timer with Faith ) as well as granting some +skill to dagger/sword raising it too A-, but require's sword and shield for the haste to take effect.
Faith JA would grant MAB+ +2 to refresh spells and +10 to regen spells and raise enhancing magic too A- and also and enfeebling skill+ or even Imunobreak+ on enfeebles cast while in effect.


As many here i think the Dev's have overlooked the need for rebalancing and renewing RDM for far to long due too fears of glory past where Rdm was used as main healer or used to kill stuff in only 1-2 hours solo that normaly required 18man to do, it seems they forgot they added rage timers to deal with this and that the main reason rdm was used as healer was refresh/convert witch any whm can now get as /rdm.

Also they seem to have forgotten that since rdm came around and mainrelease they have added sevral jobs that do much of what rdm does just better, Smn came and got AOE versions of spells rdm have, Blu came and become the DD sword magic user, Sch came and got mp efficency + more dmg/heal power and soon theres RNF/RNK and GEO who both will also doo much of what RDM originally did, its time for some RDM love in all 3 off its fields enhancing/enfeebling/magic melee.
And for gods sake do something about the lackluster state of rdm merits .... why did SE decide to waste all the potential merits had and just make it m-acc for 1 element a merit in cat 1 and spells in cat 2, its like they just watched youtube seing a RDM DOT a HNM in 2 hours and went well RDM is a demigod so no need to add anything more usefull to it......

[Rooj]

I don't think RDM dual wield makes sense. Something to consider though: in the Zodiac version of FF12, RDM gets great swords, lol.

[Lilia]

because SE says it is

SE can say a many, but why have become other jobs , ws,weapons, new enfeeblings?
and rdm play with 75 merit spells... o wait gravity2.... all jobs can now break immun. when you cast the spells long enough.

Not 1 good enfeebling, but maybe when were wait ,were become gravity3 :)

[Kojo]

why so many pl say RDM is THE ENFEEBLING JOB?

BRD have much higher slow, have dot
NIN have more or lesser the same
BLU have so many more, death,magdef down,plague,and and and
the most jobs have enfeeling on ws or jas

..... rly rdm and -the enfeebling job- is not more true

Why? Because I played back when that's what it was, before everyone turned it into a healer.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I don't think RDM dual wield makes sense. Something to consider though: in the Zodiac version of FF12, RDM gets great swords, lol.

Sadly this is FFXI, and if you single wield and are not named pld, chances are you should be dual wielding unless you desperately need... a shield, because you're pld.

I mean after all a certain other mage job has enjoyed dual wield during its long history in FF games - oh wait, no it hasn't. What applies to singular RPGs doesn't necessarily apply to FFXI.

[ManaKing]

I don't think RDM dual wield makes sense. Something to consider though: in the Zodiac version of FF12, RDM gets great swords, lol.

I believe that is called Rune Fencer now.


Sadly this is FFXI, and if you single wield and are not named pld, chances are you should be dual wielding unless you desperately need... a shield, because you're pld.

I mean after all a certain other mage job has enjoyed dual wield during its long history in FF games - oh wait, no it hasn't. What applies to singular RPGs doesn't necessarily apply to FFXI.

Quoted for truth. PLD = SHIELD. SE has made no other reparations to any other jobs so that they would seriously ever think of picking one up.

[ManaKing]

Native dual wield won't happen for RDM because /NIN and /DNC are adequate. You can /SCH if you want to play support. If you want to stun you can pick /BLM or /DRK. Are their more options than that? Sure, but they aren't supported by how people play this game or SE designs it.

There are things you could add to RDM that would make it the Jack that many people believe it should be. Here, I'll list them:

Stun
Sanguine Blade
Enspell 2s that aren't terrible
Occult Accumen
Immanence


1. Giving us stun makes it so we always have it for CCS. It's still useful. It's still our best trick. When you are caught without it, your 2H is only so so. You can't CCS as /SCH, which is a shame and stops us from being more useful than we could be.

2. Sanguine Blade would allow us to tank in some party situations. If you aren't aware that you can low man tank...well you can. Problem is we don't hold hate very well. Sanguine Blade is a good intro WS for endgame damage and it has above average hate generation so it's a good place to start. Also, it heals you so you can use it to save MP on self heals, especially if you are building your nuking set(like you should be).

3. We have a B in swords and daggers, not an A. If you are using a sword or dagger, then Enspells are how you make up that damage. Composure is how you make up the accuracy. There are many ways to make Enspells 2s more attractive but still very well balanced. I will not go over them again, but just realize that it is a boon for your enspells to have lower priority than your good additional affects from your weapons and that they need to have better DPS than Enspell 1s, or there isn't really a point.

4. Occult Acumen gives us more options for TP generation. It would encourage RDMs to play all of the parts of their job, because it would reward RDMs for nuking even though they were DDing. I've seen plenty of horrible nuking sets for RDM. They are hilariously shameful. I generally only nuke on Magic Burst(which is completely worth it since we have Magic Burst Bonus) or if I'm trying to finish a mob off quickly(dynamis TEs) because you can easily out DPS your spells if you are set up for DD.

5. An extension of the last point is Immanence. Immanence would allow RDMs to self skill chain, so that they could use magic burst for both the damage aspect of nukes or the accuracy aspect of enfeebling. Giving RDM immanence would make them a better enfeeble-er than giving them category 2 merits. You basically get elemental seal grade accuracy on enfeebles when you magic burst them. You can land almost anything that can land. Best part about this is that anyone can Magic Burst off of skill chains, so you can open up extra damage for BLMs.


RDM could be the Jack-of-All-Trades that many want it to be. It could have job synergy. It could be that a RDM is greater than the sum of it's individual parts. The reason it's not currently, is because it missed the train for job upgrades that it needed to accomplish this.

Adding all off this would still not make us a better DD than a WAR or a DRK or any 2H DD. We still would be out bursted by BLU and BLM. We would still be out cured by WHM and SCH. But we would be the best enfeeblers in the game and we would pretty decent at other things too if we took the time to gear and macro for it.

[Rooj]

RDM is a tank now :X

[Rooj]

Sanguine Blade would be so absurdly overpowered for RDM... I would just sub dancer and build a 100 TP Bonus sword for mainhand and use -PDT sword in offhand and never die to anything, ever.

Then again, I haven't tried it outside of Abyssea.

[ManaKing]

no it was a tank. now it's just a job that didn't keep up. the difference between a tank and what a RDM does currently is that in order for a RDM to tank, it has to be able to hold hate. It really doesn't do that anymore. You can tank if you are in the company of poorly geared DDs.


Sanguine Blade would be so absurdly overpowered for RDM... I would just sub dancer and build a 100 TP Bonus sword for mainhand and use -PDT sword in offhand and never die to anything, ever.

Then again, I haven't tried it outside of Abyssea.

You would deal better damage and be more survivable with an INT/MAB sword instead of a TP bonus sword. TP bonus only increases the amount of the damage you absorb and INT and MAB greatly increase the damage you can output.

I usually walk around with a PDT sword on and have around 30% PDT at 25% Haste. It's really pleasant.

I would urge you to walk around outside Abyssea. You'll find things are very different. Sanguine Blade is a defensive tool compared to other things your RDM can acquire. There are always things that will kill you. The trick is killing them before they can manage to kill you.

[Rooj]

Your'e telling me a INT/MAB sword is going to make up for 25% of Sanguine Blade's damage being converted to HP?

[Demon6324236]

Immanence would allow RDMs to self skill chain, so that they could use magic burst for both the damage aspect of nukes or the accuracy aspect of enfeebling.

I wouldn't expect them to give us Immanence just because its a SCH ability. However if they were to add the ability for your next spell to skillchain onto Spontaneity, it would be instant cast it would be easy to perform self skillchains with it. Thats more the route I would take on that idea myself.

[saevel]

Sanguine Blade would be so absurdly overpowered for RDM... I would just sub dancer and build a 100 TP Bonus sword for mainhand and use -PDT sword in offhand and never die to anything, ever.

Then again, I haven't tried it outside of Abyssea.

I could just stand there, with atmas on .. and never die to anything ... ever again .....

But haven't tried it outside abyssea...

[saevel]

Your'e telling me a INT/MAB sword is going to make up for 25% of Sanguine Blade's damage being converted to HP?

My head ... ... ... hurting ... so much ...

[Kojo]

http://i.imgur.com/Cbt6d.jpg

[Neisan_Quetz]

Please stop making my head hurt too much.

TP bonus and Int swords are bad and you should feel bad for even having such thoughts.

[Plasticleg]

Sanguine Blade would be so absurdly overpowered for RDM... I would just sub dancer and build a 100 TP Bonus sword for mainhand and use -PDT sword in offhand and never die to anything, ever.

Then again, I haven't tried it outside of Abyssea.

Farm up a Glav set.
Eat a Disgorge.
Reevaluate statement.

[Rooj]

I tank those worms without any problems?

[Rooj]

I haven't used a Sanguine Blade atma setup in Abyssea. It's not like the WS would be doing so much less DMG outside.

[Demon6324236]

I haven't used a Sanguine Blade atma setup in Abyssea. It's not like the WS would be doing so much less DMG outside.

Point is abyssea itself makes all the diffrence, atma & cruor buffs alike.

[ManaKing]

Please stop making my head hurt too much.

TP bonus and Int swords are bad and you should feel bad for even having such thoughts.

I've got a Store TP sword too, come at me! Lol

Int sword is the best damage sword for Sanguine Blade. Because you deal higher damage, you get more HP and the mob dies sooner. You also are using a 61 DMG sword instead of a 58 DMG sword and the DPS is higher.

You also get the MAB for nuking. If you aren't going to change to a staff because you care about your TP because you are using sanguine blade to begin with, then Int/MAB sword is better for a Sanguine Blade setup.

[Rooj]

I want to see the math.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Well yes, it's the best SB sword, if all you did was use SB outside of brew. Or I've just gotten to the point I don't rely on SB much.

Of that path the one worth making would have been WSDMG if you used SB for chainkills while brewing.

[Karbuncle]

I've got a Store TP sword too, come at me! Lol

Request Accepted.


Int sword is the best damage sword for Sanguine Blade.

Yes, This is probably the case.


Because you deal higher damage,

False. a STR Magian Paths Significant Increase to White Damage (Melee) Would far outweigh the benefit the INT/MAB Gives to Sanguine Blade. You are not doing higher Damage, You are getting more Epeen Shots, But your overall DoT has dropped Significantly. This is what i call "Epeen Syndrome" - Just because you make Pretty WS numbers doesn't mean your DPS/Damage is good.

Flame Magian Will also help all your other Weaponskills by some Degree, due to Attack/fSTR. Not to mention some Sword WS having the STR mod.


you get more HP and the mob dies sooner.

More HP Yes, Mob Dies Sooner? No. See above.


You also are using a 61 DMG sword instead of a 58 DMG sword and the DPS is higher.

Flame Magian and INT Magian are the same DPS. However the Benefits of Flame Magian Outweigh INT Magian. Sorry if this is not the comparison.


You also get the MAB for nuking

As a Mandau Wielding Melee RDM Myself, I think i speak for everyone when i say, this is why people laugh at Melee RDM.

Swords should Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-heeevvveeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr be considered for Nuking. If you want to Nuke, Use your Staves. If you're meleeing, You've given up the right to nuke effectively. As a Melee RDM, Your mindset should not be about balance, It should be about exceeding in the 1 field you are currently gearing up to do.

If you're Meleeing, You want to exceed at Melee. Gear appropriately.
If you're Magin', You want to Exceed at Magin'. Gear appropriately.

Don't gear for both at the same time or you look like a retard, and you're now doing neither of them effectively.


If you aren't going to change to a staff because you care about your TP because you are using sanguine blade to begin with, then Int/MAB sword is better for a Sanguine Blade setup.

Well, I think this statement is addequately Exploded and popped already from my previous installments.

INT Sword is a flat waste of time (I'm really sorry to anyone who made it), Which the only reason most of you made it is probably because the thought "Well, Ice weather is really easy and Ice Geodes are cheap!" passed through your head.

Flame Magian is all you'll ever need. Doing 100 more damage on your Sanguine Blades will not make up for the significant lose of DPS from the STR and Attack you get on the Flame Magian Path.

[ManaKing]

I don't use Sanguine Blade because you can't use it /NIN or /DNC. If you are in Dyna you have double dark all the time and if you have a mob at 25% then you can either use Requiescat (and overkill the mob) or Sanguine Blade (and recover some HP). Sanguine Blade is the better choice. Any time you would overkill a mob with TP and you aren't full on HP, Sanguine Blade is a good tool.

___

The comparison was TP bonus sword to INT/MAB sword for Sanguine Blade. STR/Attack sword wasn't an option.

Furthermore, if you are using Sanguine Blade, currently, you wouldn't be using a STR/Attack sword because you wouldn't be dual wielding...since you can't. You would be using a prestige weapon.

I would disagree that you should make staves for RDM for nuking because you should just play BLM instead if that's what you are going to do. BUT you should make Staves for BLM. Otherwise the only place you can nuke without losing TP is directly after you WS.

[Karbuncle]

Oh and PS - I think Sanguine Blade is a wonderful Tool in the Right situations. Thats not in question. I figured I'd add that before the argument went there.

[saevel]

Of all your gear there are three slots that you can not change out while meleeing. They are Main, Sub and Ranged.

Due to this, you should NEVER gear those three purely for WS damage as WS damage is the lessor of RDM's damage sources (this is outside of specific scenarios like brewing / A.edge aoe burning / ect..). They should be focused on whatever gives you maximum total damage, which is almost always the STR sword, or whatever gives you better support capabilities (One of the cure Swords). Support options need to be mentioned separately as there will be times your out helping friends or farming something in a small group.

Sang Blade will never compete with CDC or Req for Ws damage, it's HP cured will never compete with Cure III / IV, and RDM gets a ton of MP replenishment so conserving MP isn't an issue. It's utility is that it's magic damage and there will be times when you wish you had it. I use it on BLU to restore HP when I need to converse MP, that is it's own real function (outside of brewing).

[ManaKing]

I'm giving 2 points to NQ for realizing we were talking about theoretical situations and taking them from Saevel and Karbuncle for not realizing it.

[Rooj]

I would disagree that you should make staves for RDM for nuking because you should just play BLM instead if that's what you are going to do. BUT you should make Staves for BLM. Otherwise the only place you can nuke without losing TP is directly after you WS.

I dont understand why there are no trial swords like there are the trial staves for magic damage... Super disappointing for RDM ;\

[Sunrider]

What RDM could benefit from is a mechanic that augments our magic with swords, like Blue Magic and sword damage ratings.

A sword with magical stats will never get any play unless En-spells are adjusted and improved such that it would be more beneficial to gear for magic rather than melee, which would be rather nice, considering our magical equipment outnumber the melee by almost 3-1.

[Sp1cyryan]

Hello once more, today is a busy day with this being my 3rd post today alone! Well the subject of Redmage melee has been debated for a long long time. You always get two groups that say the same things. Group A says "RDM iz mage, u cast rfrsh nao". Group B says "I can swing a sword! Lemme at em!" In my eyes, both sides are right.

So where does that leave us? Split in the middle. But thats the thing, redmage makes quite the useful job! The problem is the skills and spell available to them dont work well with each other. And thats why im about to propose the following...............

New job abilities (because you know, RDM only still has about 4, including two hour)

First off, Fencer. Yeah thats right, RDM SHOULD NATURALLY HAVE FENCER. But not just 1 rank of it, no no no no........ they need at least 3 ranks of it. Maybe more. Critical attacks are just that important to making a redmage more than a lolswordsman.

Next would be a jobtrait that works with En-spells. I would figure casting an En-spell on self would create a DMG bonus to the RDM based on enhancing magic skill. Yeah thats right, instead of just getting that smidge of damage from magic, this should be a physical bonus to the weapon in your main hand. En-2 spells should have a GROWING damage bonus based on how far along the elemental damage bonus is. This would add some pep to damage.

Finally i would think a set of job abilities that actually have to deal with swinging your sword and casting are in order. Something along the lines of formless strikes. But for weapon skills. Like so.

A: Job ability: Piercing Blows: Next weapon skill performed by the user deals non-elemental damage instead of physical damage (only works with physical weapon skills, sorry sanguine blade) Recast: 2 minutes
B: Job Ability: Arcanic Assault: For duration, increase users attack by reducing users magic attack bonus completely. Recast: 5 minutes Duration: 1 minute (maybe 2, idea is like berserk)

So far thats about it. There are probably more ideas I am thinking, but these would have direct impact on Red Mages and would make them considerable damage dealers. Somewhere.

~Chuk

Or they could just remake the job from the ground up.



Balance means not everyone gets to count because that throw off the balance. Didn'tcha know?

[Demon6324236]

Of all your gear there are three slots that you can not change out while meleeing. They are Main, Sub and Ranged.

What ranged? I use ammo, Impatiens, Demonry Core, White Tathlum, and Flame Sachet.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Changing the range slot specifically will cause you to lose TP. Not sure why ammo was mentioned though.

[Demon6324236]

Changing the range slot specifically will cause you to lose TP. Not sure why ammo was mentioned though.

I was just saying I'm not sure why a RDM would be using Ranged, or any job really. Only time you should really be using ranged gear is if you are a ranged attacking job, anything else Ammo slots have STP, Attack, Acc, PDT, many more useful things than a ranged weapon. Though I will say I must have taken it out of context because my response does seem a bit out of place, stating a fact on how a mechanic works rather than a limitation RDM must deal with due to gear options.

[Mathieu]

why so many pl say RDM is THE ENFEEBLING JOB?

BRD have much higher slow, have dot
NIN have more or lesser the same
BLU have so many more, death,magdef down,plague,and and and
the most jobs have enfeeling on ws or jas

..... rly rdm and -the enfeebling job- is not more true

Because those are really superficial comparison.

Bard enfeebling is awful outside a couple highly specific situations. They also lack pretty much every enfeebling option. Also, they don't have a higher Slow, they have a non-scaling slow. At lower levels it is higher, but the actual cap of Slow is higher than the Bard version. This is also completely ignoring Slow II. Foe Requiem VII does more damage than Poison II, but, yeah, Poison II is 30 levels lower and the difference isn't much. On top of that, Red Mages can stack DoTs, Bard can't. Bard has a couple solid enfeebles, but Red Mage has them, as well, along with a whole lot more.

Ninja is in the same boat. They have a couple solid enfeebles, but they don't have as many as Red Mage and some of the ones they are missing are huge.

Blue Mage also can't have all their spells at the same time, get their traits based on their spell selection, and they have other roles to perform. A Blue Mage entirely dedicated to enfeebling can be comparable to a Red Mage with the right spell selection, but a Red Mage doesn't have to sacrifice the ability to do everything else to get their enfeebles. So, yeah, a Blue Mage can enfeeble as well as a Red Mage, as long as they are willing to be useless for everything else.

As for weapon skills, blowing 100+% TP to get a generally less effective enfeeble, who's access is dependent to weapon selection, and can outright miss just isn't comparable to a Red Mage.

I think you are confusing the fact people prioritize enemies based on the minimal amount of effort for actual effectiveness at enfeebling. None of those jobs can enfeeble as well as Red Mage, but if you are fighting an enemy that only needs two enfeebles to mostly gimp it, then you don't need a great enfeebler. It's the same reason why Red Mage and Summoner/White Mage spent years as preferred healers over White Mage. In theory, White Mage was the best healer, but Red Mage and Summoner/White Mage could do more than enough at most levels to fill the needs and the added benefits they brought trumped what White Mage did.

[ManaKing]

I dont understand why there are no trial swords like there are the trial staves for magic damage... Super disappointing for RDM ;\

It's just the way it is. I feel you though.

[Demon6324236]

I dont understand why there are no trial swords like there are the trial staves for magic damage... Super disappointing for RDM ;\

I hate to say it but... Balance. Not completely, they would likely change the stats quite a bit, but depending on how much, could still be to much for them to bother with it. Think of a RDM/NIN DWing 2 Thunder Affinity Swords, 4 Affinity each. Thats a total of 8 Affinity, by how they scale so far that means about a +45% damage bonus on spells, it would also probably be -10% cast time each, so that with our natural fast cast would become -50% before FC gear. Not that I like this, but I can admit in a way I see why SE wouldn't. It is a nice thought though, I would suggest cure swords as well but we already have 2 of those so not much need I suppose.

[Lilia]

Blue Mage also can't have all their spells at the same time, get their traits based on their spell selection, and they have other roles to perform. A Blue Mage entirely dedicated to enfeebling can be comparable to a Red Mage with the right spell selection, but a Red Mage doesn't have to sacrifice the ability to do everything else to get their enfeebles. So, yeah, a Blue Mage can enfeeble as well as a Red Mage, as long as they are willing to be useless for everything else.



Thats not true- i can have a good setup with dmgspells,jtraitspells AND enfeebling spells- and im not useless.
The same you can say blu is not a healer- he can heal rly good, but many blu only want play DD.

....and they have other roles to perform......lol

BLU can 100% do the same things what rdm can do.
the only reason why not, is the blus not so stupid to go the same way rdm go the last years

[saevel]

What ranged? I use ammo, Impatiens, Demonry Core, White Tathlum, and Flame Sachet.

Ammo is a different slot then ranged and you can change ammo without losing TP. Ranged is bows / chakrams / ect..

[Demon6324236]

Ammo is a different slot then ranged and you can change ammo without losing TP. Ranged is bows / chakrams / ect..

Yes I know, as I said a few posts back for some reason the way my mind read it I thought you were saying a RDM would be using ranged. Which makes no sense as there isn't much there for us anyways. So I was pointing out that for RDM at least that problem shouldn't exist anyways. Sorry about that :x

[Chuk]

Wow, plenty of views and lots of ideas. Well guess i better upkeep my own thread. Ahem.

Well i saw someone suggest something along the lines of Fast Draw and i got to thinking "Holy crap thats actually a good idea!"

And it a goes something like this..............

Elemental Thrusts. Multiple charges, Job ability, one for each element. The effect should CAUSE IMMUNOBREAK related to debuffs of the same element. Immunobreak is a really neat aspect of the game, but it would make sense for a redmage to have the ability to force it out faster by striking the enemy with proper element attack. These should do damage also, be consistant like Fast Draw to really give RDM reason to swing the sword!

Also for the record, i do not recall trying to say Redmage should become the #1 damage dealer. I simply stated that a little extra bang for their buck might actually be a good thing. And discussion really should focus on ideas that allow redmages to assist the party through melee, not just be yet another i WS for a bajillion damage. It is a job that has an assistance focus on it, rather than being a primary anything.

Thank you for continued support and great ideas guys!
~Chuk

PS yes i read that other redmage melee thead.

[saevel]

Yes I know, as I said a few posts back for some reason the way my mind read it I thought you were saying a RDM would be using ranged. Which makes no sense as there isn't much there for us anyways. So I was pointing out that for RDM at least that problem shouldn't exist anyways. Sorry about that :x

Not much for ammo slot either. I tend to use the AV Magic Acc +8 Chakram or the Killer Bow. In either case as long as someones got a plan then it's fine.

[ManaKing]

Lanner Bow is pretty nice too.