To: Mr Akihiko Matsui [Archive] - FINAL FANTASY XI Forum

Eyeballed

08-02-2012, 01:26 PM

It was always a pain in the butt to get a six man group together, so it seems that nothing has changed for the people who prefer that size group. Why try and force the people who don't want to party with you to do something they don't like? Sounds like a terrible idea to me. Most people are completely content with the way leveling works now.

I've got an answer for you. When this game was released, and up until Abyssea, there was a fanbase of, I don't know specifically, but a much greater percentage than those that remain today. Abyssea ripped much of what we knew the game to be right out of the hands of those who were actually enjoying themselves, believe it or not; Those who didn't mind putting a little effort behind their mid-game simply for the sake of the feeling of accomplishment, if anything else.

There's a few concepts that you, and many of those who support your argument, simply don't seem to understand. One of those is the illusion of choice. Because of the ratio in number of folks who prefer, (and I use that term loosely, point), the greased rail to endgame and the small remaining minority, those of the latter group are forced to either conform to the norm, go solo, or find another game. And even going solo provides only a percentage of the challenge that used to exist in the game, as it's far more productive to spam pages of EP mobs.

Another concept is that this game is an RPG, and RPG's, since the beginning of RPG time, have had content to experience and enjoy at all levels of progression. There's always been a story, a journey, a gradual curve of character growth in ability. With this system, do you have any of that? Are you sure it's an RPG you want to be playing?

The real problem I have, for one, is SE took the game and flipped it on its head for no apparent reason other than to garner a new playerbase, which is fine, except they did it while giving out a big "fuck you" to the rest of us. The "rest of us" being those who played the game because we liked what it had to offer.

Modoru

08-02-2012, 01:48 PM

Honestly "gathering groups" for party used to be very specific to certain jobs [eg, it was pretty hard for me to obtain a party as Thief unless I made it, and even then I had problems on occasion because I couldn't find a white mage, or a DD, or a tank, among other problems], and the grind to 75 wasn't a complete issue, it was fun to an extent, sure.

However: Meripo was tedious, admit it. Grinding on birds for ridiculous skillchains is as fun as grabbing dolls in altepa, except mages can do the damage instead of just DDs. The "endgame" for FFXI was stripped to the "elite few", where most of the player base was excluded, in linkshells that had an exorbitant amount of drama, flawed "lot point" systems, unrealistic entrance requirements [aka, you needed to have a decent amount of gear before coming in], and very, very corrupt leaders. Abyssea pretty much allowed everyone else to play on an equal standing and have a chance at good gear -- the "elites" just learned how to do it in lower numbers.

Abyssea wasn't a curse to this game -- it was instead, a boon, because it brought a breath of life to this game once more, facilitating a tedious process for newcomers and certain older players, allowing for more dynamic play and a faster pace.

I admit, it fell flat with the proc system -- it made many jobs obsolete, but other than that, it was still a decent design.

That said, these are just my opinions, but I highly disagree about abyssea being a problem.

Also: I'm pretty sure the reason why there's less people today isn't because of abyssea, but instead because the game is already past the decade milestone, and a lot of people got bored, or just moved onto something else, not because of abyssea.

Arcon

08-02-2012, 02:25 PM

No most ppl just like the idea of going AFK for hours and getting free exp.

I absolutely adore that. That's about the only thing I like about Abyssea. I'd pay 1M for an hour of EXP rather than doing that shit myself.

Meyi

08-02-2012, 05:58 PM

No most ppl just like the idea of going AFK for hours and getting free exp. It wasnt always hard to get partys going. Depending on the time of day. Sometimes i could have a complet party set up in 5 mins or less.

Not everyone does that. I wouldn't call it free; it can cost anywhere from 400k~1mil.

As for "it was always easy to get a party going", looking at your main job makes that statement kind of obvious. Now if you were a Beastmaster or Summoner level 99 for a main job, I might scratch my chin and think about that for a moment. Of course Red Mages got invited to parties quickly! Hell, whenever I'd log on my Bard to do Dynamis or Salvage, I'd get literally 10 /tells asking to join people's parties. But you know what? That's not for every job in this game; such a luxury was for a select few. The beautiful thing about Abyssea is that all jobs can enter and be given a fair chance to play.

Honestly there's a good handful of people who want to level old school. Just ask them. Shout in Jeuno and make that party "in five minutes or less"; I can guarantee you'll have as much luck today as you did eight years ago -- being able to Level Sync will accommodate the sparsity of members your level who can tank and heal.

I would also propose avoiding Fields of Valor and Grounds of Valor as that will make the EXP too fast and too mainstream. Also don't use EXP bands because they're also a newer addition to the game and the EXP was massively increased as is. Wouldn't want to unbalance the oldschool feel!

I've got an answer for you. When this game was released, and up until Abyssea, there was a fanbase of, I don't know specifically, but a much greater percentage than those that remain today. Abyssea ripped much of what we knew the game to be right out of the hands of those who were actually enjoying themselves, believe it or not; Those who didn't mind putting a little effort behind their mid-game simply for the sake of the feeling of accomplishment, if anything else.

Oh my God the misinformation levels of these forums always drive me insane! I don't understand how everyone can be so naïve when the knowledge is easily accessible. I don't understand how people can be so foolish when they were supposedly playing when said events unfolded! Perhaps bad memories? Perhaps rose tinted glasses? Come on.

The truth is that the game's population began to decrease rapidly before Abyssea was even mentioned to the playerbase. Before Abyssea was even added to the game there were server merges -- my server was one of the ones to disappear. It was after the merge that Abyssea came, not before it. Do you know why the server had to merge? Because many players were bored of the stagnation of the game and left. Our populations were so low Square Enix deemed us in dire need of a boost of life and thus kicked us onto Bismarck. For the record my first Abyssea party was a LaTheine worm party on Bismarck.

Many players have returned because of Abyssea. Some have left again, some have stayed. It seems there are more people leaving because they're upset that the game isn't making other players suffer as much as it used to. Good riddance I say! At the end of the day it's a game and it should be pleasurable. Square Enix didn't remove the old way of playing the game, so those who are upset by the new additions should gather like minded people and do old content in the old fashion.

There's a few concepts that you, and many of those who support your argument, simply don't seem to understand. One of those is the illusion of choice. Because of the ratio in number of folks who prefer, (and I use that term loosely, point), the greased rail to endgame and the small remaining minority, those of the latter group are forced to either conform to the norm, go solo, or find another game.

Hmm, sounds the same as always. I had to solo on Beastmaster. And had to solo on Summoner. Many players in this game have come to understand the idea of soloing. Personally I prefer it to working with other members, but I'd not want to rain on other people's parades by demanding the party system be abolished so everyone had to play my way -- why should it be the case here?

Obviously if "oldschool" is such a minority then that tells you something; that system was unwanted. If it was more pleasuring then more people would do it. Wanting to get stuff done faster? Well yes, it is a video game so clearly people don't want to spend four or five real life hours obtaining one level when they could spend the same four or five hours and gain half of their levels. The sooner someone levels, the sooner they can cap skills (and don't you dare start the "Abyssea = no skill" bull) and the sooner they can do content in the game they deem fun. If you deem leveling fun, then make a party and do it that way. The amount of people who like slow and sluggish EXP are few and far between, but still possible to locate.

As someone who used to play the game solely for the leveling up system, I have to say I also open my arms to welcome the change that is Abyssea. After my seventh job to 75 I was getting burned out on EXP myself. After starting a new character (and having to relevel all of his sub jobs!) I'm thankful to have a system to do this quickly with.

Oh, and as a disclaimer because I see that I left that window of opportunity open, skills were not magically capped in the oldschool ways. Some DDs capped, yes, but a lot of tanks had defense skills they had to force up painfully, DDs had other weapons they didn't often use in exp parties to skill up, and mages had awful magic (usually defensive) they had to try and push forward. Back eight years ago, skill up parties were all the rage and there were always lots of them to be found (especially in The Boyahda Tree and Kuftal Tunnel). Surprisingly, after Abyssea, such parties don't really exist anymore. Once in awhile I'll see a shout or a group from Linkshell go, but for the most part, people just solo their skill ups now, and seem to do it fast enough. It's better to spam to 99 and then level up skills afterwards because at least 99 has more options to Haste gear and Accuracy. And, you'll know what the final cap is to aim for.

And even going solo provides only a percentage of the challenge that used to exist in the game, as it's far more productive to spam pages of EP mobs.

I love soloing! I find it can be very challenging, and very rewarding. Nothing like being able to take down foes that everyone claimed you couldn't! :) And there's always less idiocy to mess up the success rate.

Another concept is that this game is an RPG, and RPG's, since the beginning of RPG time, have had content to experience and enjoy at all levels of progression. There's always been a story, a journey, a gradual curve of character growth in ability. With this system, do you have any of that? Are you sure it's an RPG you want to be playing?

Unfortunately it has the three letters MMO in front of it. While I love RPGs (though hate leveling and how long half of them draw the story out, but I digress) there's a significant difference between RPGs and MMORPGs. Really, the MMO is the most important acronym and shouldn't be overlooked. That MMO means I'm playing the game with other people, and will more than likely need their help to succeed in my goals. Unfortunately, being forced to play with other people means I have to deal with their stupidity and their needs too. The most effective way to take care of them and myself with the least amount of time required is to be max level and have good gear. I also feel it'd be rude to expect people to help me at a low level when I could be a much higher level and be of more assistance to them. Or even worse, expect people to help me when I can have the capabilities to do it myself.

Also I can't recall the cutscenes ever changing in this game because of my level. Pretty sure the story stays intact. So, that reasoning for wanting things to go back to the old way is quite flawed. (Besides, even preAbyssea people spammed to 75 and did fights like the Shadow Lord at max level. I was one of the few who did him at level 50 and let me tell you, it was really scary and consumed a good six hours of a night.)

The real problem I have, for one, is SE took the game and flipped it on its head for no apparent reason other than to garner a new playerbase, which is fine, except they did it while giving out a big "fuck you" to the rest of us. The "rest of us" being those who played the game because we liked what it had to offer.

If you like the pain and suffering of the old game then go for it. Nobody's stopping you. There are plenty of people on these forums bitching the way you do, so consider playing with them. Seriously. Don't drag everyone down into your pity party because many of us actually enjoy the tracks the game is on now. It's fun. It's a game. I like the fact that Square Enix has reminded us it's a game, not a lifestyle and not a job. It used to be a lifestyle and a job. Now it's a game. And for that I thank them whoreheartedly.

Shadax

08-02-2012, 09:15 PM

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa453/hmbruce/oh_look_its_this_thread_again_super.jpg

sc4500

08-02-2012, 10:04 PM

I hope you bring the old Final Fantasy XI game back. Every sense abyssea the games turned into s$$t. Alot of older players think so as well and thats why they stoped playing the game.
I herd a rumor that they planed on making this game out to be like World of Warcraft. IF you turn this game into another WoW clone thats it for me.

I'm not really sure what to do about the leveling system either. Sense all the Newb's only want to do 18 man partys doing grounds of valor so when they do get high enough to do other stuff they have no idea what they are doing. There still quite of few of us who love to do the old 6 man party sets up but its more defacult now then it use to be even tho I'm still able to do it with enough shouting in town to find people to join. I've notice they put a cap on lower level pages in abyssea zone for lower level's, Maybe put a 1 game day limit on page's in grounds of valor would stop those 18 man party's and maybe not.

And on a side note would be nice to get male mithria adding to this game and battle choco's :D just my 2 cents hope you read it.

Regards
Loyal FF player sense 04

As a person that has played this game since one month after the ps2 version in NA was launch, I'm sorry you feel that way, because if you have ever played any of the hundreds mmos that came out since ff11 you will notice all the other mmos have fixed all the stuff that many the 2.5mil users back when the ps2 version of ff11 launch complained about.

Abyssea started to fixed all that stuff, then they stopped and went back to the old way and that's why people are leaving the game, yes there is small hardcore base that will never leave and are mad, because square should have done some kick ass stuff for that 5 % of elitegroup of players and they didn't.

Only thing even keeping this game alive is because newbies can actually do some of the amazing cutscene and other stuff because they can lv faster since that 5% will not like to be bothered anymore.

I once remember when i mule a dozen of the servers after the COP failure , I would do a world search and only be 350 maxed people on during NA times, and then aht urghan brought it up to around avg of 3k people then the xbox version got it back to around 4.5k to 5k people every 24 hrs, abyssea was 5k to 6k for yr, now down to 2k avg with merge servers and the last yrs after the abyssea content sucked, and went back to the old ways no balance or real leadership.

Sarick

08-02-2012, 10:04 PM

No most ppl just like the idea of going AFK for hours and getting free exp. It wasnt always hard to get partys going. Depending on the time of day. Sometimes i could have a complet party set up in 5 mins or less.

You can do this in any party or group IF, the group allows it. I don't want to go back to the system where you search for a party an hour then get to a camp and someone has to, go followed by looking for members again, only to disband..

DON'T WASTE OUR TIME!

What your looking for is an inactivity monitor. Unfortunately, all someone would need to do is caste dia,cure on a mob or swat one every 5 min to remain active.

Sarick

08-02-2012, 10:09 PM

:( There's no dislike button...

Yes so everyone who dislikes the other persons post can like this Meyi's post. :p

If you dislike the OP's post click like on Meyi's 3rd post as a vote against the OP's post.

Next time you see a horrible IDEA post this..

There's no dislike button! Click like on my post to vote dislike for original posters idea.

oliveira

08-02-2012, 10:26 PM

Well... The game is in it's current state, because simply there's no longer enough people on the same level range to allow for the original "form party, party hard, disband and look for party again". It's why back in 2006/7 people would spend three to four hours (depending on job) or not get a party at all.

Things like level sync and Abbyssea came to solve a serious playability issue the game had. Most people are now on the cap level and want to gear up their high level jobs.

So they have no drive to level other jobs. This is the problem. It's not the game.

In a MMORPG it's the desires of the population along with the goals and path set by the developer which define where the game goes to. If the developers did not implement the changes to:

make stuff soloable
increase level ranges for partying
making alternative level up possibilities

this game would be dead by now.

Leech mode probably came to be from what the devs seen with players doing SMN burn parties.

Now, there's very good arguments on this thread. I'm just trying to add to it. :)

wish12oz

08-02-2012, 10:44 PM

Im completely against everything in the OP.

I am however in favor of SE adding a new "Old School" or "Vanilla" server, where the level cap is 75 and everyone on it has to start from scratch, and it has all content up to Abyssea and the first level cap increase. Someone should make a new thread about this.

FrankReynolds

08-02-2012, 11:35 PM

I've got an answer for you. When this game was released, and up until Abyssea, there was a fanbase of, I don't know specifically, but a much greater percentage than those that remain today. Abyssea ripped much of what we knew the game to be right out of the hands of those who were actually enjoying themselves, believe it or not; Those who didn't mind putting a little effort behind their mid-game simply for the sake of the feeling of accomplishment, if anything else.

There's a few concepts that you, and many of those who support your argument, simply don't seem to understand. One of those is the illusion of choice. Because of the ratio in number of folks who prefer, (and I use that term loosely, point), the greased rail to endgame and the small remaining minority, those of the latter group are forced to either conform to the norm, go solo, or find another game. And even going solo provides only a percentage of the challenge that used to exist in the game, as it's far more productive to spam pages of EP mobs.

Another concept is that this game is an RPG, and RPG's, since the beginning of RPG time, have had content to experience and enjoy at all levels of progression. There's always been a story, a journey, a gradual curve of character growth in ability. With this system, do you have any of that? Are you sure it's an RPG you want to be playing?

The real problem I have, for one, is SE took the game and flipped it on its head for no apparent reason other than to garner a new playerbase, which is fine, except they did it while giving out a big "fuck you" to the rest of us. The "rest of us" being those who played the game because we liked what it had to offer.

Funny, apparently you never leveled beast, blm, sum, pup, thf etc. before the addition of abyssea. As a matter of fact, I suspect that you didn't level much back then, because if you did, you wouldn't be worried about this now. You would be finished leveling everything.

Your argument counters itself in that: There are not enough people who want what you want. If there were, you would be playing with them, not complaining about how they don't exist, so SE should make them for you.

cidbahamut

08-02-2012, 11:52 PM

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n564/coasterguy666/oh-look-its-this-thread-again.jpg

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 12:03 AM

If you like the pain and suffering of the old game then go for it. Nobody's stopping you. There are plenty of people on these forums bitching the way you do, so consider playing with them. Seriously. Don't drag everyone down into your pity party because many of us actually enjoy the tracks the game is on now. It's fun. It's a game. I like the fact that Square Enix has reminded us it's a game, not a lifestyle and not a job. It used to be a lifestyle and a job. Now it's a game. And for that I thank them whoreheartedly.

Yes, they are, in fact. If you want proof, just go ahead and do a /sea all XX-XX inv and send tells to everyone in that list and count the number of "lol" and "No thanks." you get in reply for a classic party. You may say it's because that old way was more like a job, but if you ask me, it sure beats the hell out of AFKing to progress. No, I challenge the idea that it's more like a game now than it used to be; Once upon a time, we embraced the difficulties and looked at them as challenges to be accepted and overcome. We did that, or we got so angry that we threw the controller at the screen and hastily shut the game down and probably never turned it back on. That's what a reasonable person does when they accept defeat at something they're just no good at or can't be bothered with. FFXI was not the first game to do this, and I hope to god it won't be the last, but I fear that may very well be the case.

Reiterpallasch

08-03-2012, 12:12 AM

The fact you seem to think that "afk to exp" is the only way there is just shows that you have no clue what you're talking about.

It's entirely possible to get a party outside of abyssea, and still get 100k+/hr even with average everyday people, no 99 PLs involved.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 12:17 AM

oliveira

08-03-2012, 12:17 AM

Not saying everyone is like this, but on average, non JP players (there's JP players like that, too don't think I am generalizing too much) tend to assume a self centered position and prefer to cater to solo play. That's one of the reasons the game was great on the beginning and so horrid after a few years. Everyone had achieved most of what they wanted, even the "chronic team players" had the jobs they liked leveled already. So new players would have nobody to play with.

Making it easier to level had a interesting effect of encouraging people in trying new jobs, recycling existing players and putting "new oil" on the game rusted grinder gears.

It all boils down to having or not people to play with in the very end.

FrankReynolds

08-03-2012, 12:18 AM

We did that, or we got so angry that we threw the controller at the screen and hastily shut the game down and probably never turned it back on. That's what a reasonable person does when they accept defeat at something they're just no good at or can't be bothered with.

Perhaps you are just no good at or can't be bothered with FFXI? Why do you even have jobs left to level? It seems like groups were super easy to get and everything was fun back in the day according to you guys who have been around since back when FFXI was a real game. Why didn't you level them back then? I blame you for the death of the six man group. If you had done it back then, perhaps it would still be around today. Shame on you.

Someone who truly enjoyed the smooth fun exciting experience of a six man exp party should have had Maat's Cap several years ago and be onto bigger better things by now.

Luvbunny

08-03-2012, 12:20 AM

Another day and another thread of "bring back the old school FFXI".... some people just cannot move on to the future and still live in the past. Old school is still in the game, with a much better revamped system such as level synch, double the xp, exp ring, plus FoV or GoV xp bonus. And yet so many of us do not do the old school way, because it is archaic, takes too much work, and only applicable to static party. Things change for a reason or two. If anything the new person in charge should really look at WoW and what made the game very successful and copy it with FF flavor and try to spins it his way. I think abyssea is one of the absolute best add ons they ever created in a very long time. My only wish is that people would just move on from abyssea and swore of it so that I can have the whole 6 zones for myself and never have to deal with competition at all :)

oliveira

08-03-2012, 12:22 AM

Even though I dearly enjoyed the past of FFXI, bringing the old school game back at this point would mean quick ruin for this title.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 12:26 AM

Perhaps you are just no good at or can't be bothered with FFXI? Why do you even have jobs left to level? It seems like groups were super easy to get and everything was fun back in the day according to you guys who have been around since back when FFXI was a real game. Why didn't you level them back then? I blame you for the death of the six man group. If you had done it back then, perhaps it would still be around today. Shame on you.

Someone who truly enjoyed the smooth fun exciting experience of a six man exp party should have had Maat's Cap several years ago and be onto bigger better things by now.

Funny you ask. What happened was I quit XI and deleted my character a few weeks before the release of FFXIV. Now I'm back. I quit that game only because you can cap a job in a single day and there is virtually no mid-game. Perhaps you'd be better off sticking to asking questions rather than jumping to conclusions.

Luvbunny

08-03-2012, 12:27 AM

Yup the old school way is afk for 2-3 hours while LFG and come back to see that you still gain zero xp. The new way is afk on alliance party and come back to see you gain a few levels!! Who gives a crap about how you get your level, as long as you take time to learn the job and grind for your gears.

cidbahamut

08-03-2012, 12:30 AM

I quit that game only because you can cap a job in a single day and there is virtually no mid-game.

There was never a mid-game in FFXI.

Trisscar

08-03-2012, 12:31 AM

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/22110572.jpg

Luvbunny

08-03-2012, 12:36 AM

Before abyssea came out, the developers got away with doing practically almost nothing with each content update. All they did was minor tweaks, and not much. Updates were few and far between and they pretty much have the attitude of "we are always right and the costumers are always wrong." Abyssea changed the game for the better, each content is fully realized, with tons of things to do and completely accessible for all. Not only that, the whole attitude started to change and we get more updates, more tweaks, and a bit more open discussion feel from the developers. Be grateful for the change for it lets the game evolve for the better.

Khiinroye

08-03-2012, 01:00 AM

Yes, they are, in fact. If you want proof, just go ahead and do a /sea all XX-XX inv and send tells to everyone in that list and count the number of "lol" and "No thanks." you get in reply for a classic party.

This looks exactly like how the old way worked for jobs that weren't in the "in crowd." Or if the two level spread around your level consisted of thf thf thf thf drk drk drg drg bst bst bst. Remember, level syncing is not classic partying. The people who you asked would then join another party with the popular jobs, and you'd have to solo for 12-50 per kill without signet defense and evasion bonuses, FoV/GoV xp boosts, xp rings, or mog tablet bonuses.

Elexia

08-03-2012, 01:18 AM

If by "WoW clone" you mean "successful game with a fuckload of subscribers", then sure. I don't see the point of any part of your post other than to cry about things you have limited knowledge about at best.

Uh no, WoW clones are mediocre pieces of shit and everyone has proven this. "Truckloads of subscribers" doesn't mean "good game", because some of the most fun MMOs out there have low subscriber counts.

FFXI is one of the most successful MMOs out there, but most kids these days only think Sub Number = Success, which means Mcdonalds is the most successful and best Burger Place to exist using that logic.

Trisscar

08-03-2012, 01:21 AM

Uh no, WoW clones are mediocre pieces of shit and everyone has proven this. "Truckloads of subscribers" doesn't mean "good game", because some of the most fun MMOs out there have low subscriber counts.

FFXI is one of the most successful MMOs out there, but most kids these days only think Sub Number = Success, which means Mcdonalds is the most successful and best Burger Place to exist using that logic.

"Learn from WoW" does not equal "become WoW clone".

Twille

08-03-2012, 01:21 AM

The 'old school' FFXI is dead and gone. The "new" FFXI is the future of the game, it's not going back. Please come to terms with this fact.

Elexia

08-03-2012, 01:29 AM

"Learn from WoW" does not equal "become WoW clone".

However, "learn from WoW" usually mean "Turn into a WoW clone that everyone will realize and promptly leave your shit because it didn't do WoW as good as WoW did."

There is a difference between "Learning from" and "copying"..how many MMOs that "learned from WoW" didn't flatout copy it? WoW in itself is a copy of older MMOs, however it's the most popular MMO due to advertising so of course MMO devs will go out their way to try to copy it's success.

We've seen it with almost all new MMOs that came out the past half decade.

cidbahamut

08-03-2012, 01:31 AM

However, "learn from WoW" usually mean "Turn into a WoW clone that everyone will realize and promptly leave your shit because it didn't do WoW as good as WoW did."

No, that's not what it means.

You're being contrary for the sake of being contrary.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 01:32 AM

The 'old school' FFXI is dead and gone. The "new" FFXI is the future of the game, it's not going back. Please come to terms with this fact.

I think it would be easier to accept if we had some alternative that is much more XI circa 2005 than WoW. It's like getting a basketball for your birthday because your parents know you like basketball because you play it so often, but one day you come home and the basketball's gone and been replaced with a cricket bat. You're left standing there, hands out, mouth agape, with this stunned look on your face. Cricket: The new Basketball.

Modoru

08-03-2012, 01:32 AM

Interesting how everything else that was commented on... was ignored. cc;

Elexia

08-03-2012, 01:32 AM

No, that's not what it means.

You're being contrary for the sake of being contrary.

Nah, most people who play more than one MMO has seen it happen.

Teraniku

08-03-2012, 01:33 AM

Ok I totally understand both sides of this argument, I loved old School FFXI (When I could get a Party on other than WHM , PLD, NIN or any major league DD job (at the time that didn't include DRG), but I do love FoV, GoV and Abyssea leveling.

See the major problem with this game is us, the Players. If we had a real community in the game, we'd help out when someone shouts for the last Wings of the Goddess mission they've been on since forever, but no one can be bothered to take 15 min of their time to help someone finish it, even though it can be duo'd by a 99 BST and a SMN fairly easily. I'm glad that there are still players who recognize people doing the same Magian trial they are on and will invite you to their party to make it go quicker for everyone.

Razaroic

08-03-2012, 01:34 AM

No, that's not what it means.

You're being contrary for the sake of being contrary.

You don't play many MMORPGs, do you?

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 01:35 AM

Elexia, are you the same Elexia from the FF14 boards? :D

Elexia

08-03-2012, 01:36 AM

Elexia, are you the same Elexia from the FF14 boards? :D

That I am.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 01:38 AM

That I am.

Oh joy! :)

lllen

08-03-2012, 01:53 AM

There is nothing in the world stopping people from leveling up the old fashion way. After trudging thru several jobs to 75, I love Abyssea. Merit parties, skill up parties, they are still around just in a different format, but that doesn't mean you can't do it the way it was "Back in the day". There is time to do several things at one time rather than trudge thru day after day, same ole same ole. Some people just don't like change, but now you can have your cake and eat too, old way new way.

adding a p.s.
Not everyone has hours and hours per day to play, Abyssea and other new places has allowed the player who doesn't have the time to get a head and have fun. Isn't that what gaming is about, Fun.

Rosina

08-03-2012, 03:21 AM

Ok this is nuts.
First off, i find it funny no one noticed few spelling issues a few of these posts, hypocrits much?

Secondly, please take the time to read and consider a person post because going balls to the wall and fling insults, or comment saying nostalgia or rose tinted glasses. That is prety rude.

As for my thoughts. I have playing ever 30 mmo/mud. I've played WoW Aion, mabinogi, maple story, PWI, and many many more. What FFXI had pre abyssea was the best that I've personally saw. None of thre mmo I've played came close to what FFXI offered me.

FFXI USED TO have great teamwork no matter what you did. Sure there was trouble areas, but that was all on the players not the game. I never had an issue getting to join end game shells. Heck, I was a 70 rdm in dynamis. Then a 75 monk, my gear was crap. I did sky, again crap gear but as long as I listen no one cared. You had to work for what you had to do. Thats was the joy of playing. You had to put effort. No one does that anymore.

(text limit)

Rosina

08-03-2012, 03:30 AM

(Text limit)
Honestly before abyssea was out, ffxi community was the most open, showed great effort, and proved time and again that people was great no matter how they played. Sure people had "perfered" styles. Thats normal. Do what you can, but mostly have fun. As for lotting rules... that just how things had to be at the time. Drop were rare, getting gear took alot of effort. Gil wasn't as easy to come by. The only ones who had a hard time in this game was the lazy, "noods" who would b--- and moan when stuff wasn't handed to them.

As for going afk for free exp.. THAT should be fixed, that is pretty game breaking and it just poves the laziness of the players. If you guys can build 18 man parties for gov/aby you can build 6 man parties. there is obviously enough people, plus ther is level sync.

As for the comment "i have a job and a life I can't play this all the time" thats no one choice/fault then your own. You choose to have a family and you choose to have a full time job, (text limit)

Elexia

08-03-2012, 03:33 AM

Rosina

08-03-2012, 03:39 AM

(text limit)

you choose to play an mmorpg on top of that. No one is forcing any of that on you. I used to play ffxi for 2 hours a day because my family had to share the ps2, and the internet connection as routers at the time cost to much for us. I still got ALOT done under 2 hrs a day. I knew and know a ton of people who had jobs and familes who played ffxi. You guys act like the player base was only 12-18 years old. I knew and know players up in their 40s. They still got stuff done. It was called "planing ahead" get up with your linkshell or your friends and plan a day you can be on, a time you will be on, and just do the stuff then.

This is an mmorpg, there is and was no need to rush the game. All you need is patience. And you will get stuff done. You also do not need wiki to play this game. Just ask around in game and people will tell you stuff. Yesterday, a new guy from my LS needed help with fame. He was gonna log on wiki, I say why bother and gave him a list of easy to do quests, from each city (TL)

Rosina

08-03-2012, 03:50 AM

(TL)
telling hime what he needed to get, and the location of the quest giver. What would have taken him probable 30 min of reading, took me 5 min to write. If you ask the right questions you will get the right replies.

I do not hate wiki, but if I can save someone a trip I will do so. But i do hate how the player base on the forums find wiki as the FFXI bible, basicaly acting like "if its not on wiki its not worth doing, if its out dated on wiki its not worth doing". Why play a game based on what an open free forum says?

I also do not hate abyssea, i think the content is fun. I like how the world was set up. I like the lore of said world. What I don't like is how lazy and anti social it made the playerbase. You rarely see vets help newbies... people get what THEY want, then are done with said stuff. That wasn't like that in the past. People generally stayed in the LS for years till they moved on to a new mmo.

Thats my 2 cents.. sorry for the multi posts, but ps3 does have a limit.

cidbahamut

08-03-2012, 03:58 AM

(TL)
telling hime what he needed to get, and the location of the quest giver. What would have taken him probable 30 min of reading, took me 5 min to write. If you ask the right questions you will get the right replies.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ffxi+fame
3rd result.
That does not take a half hour.

Wiki is an excellent resource and new players should be encouraged to make use of it.

Trisscar

08-03-2012, 03:58 AM

I've played quite a few MMOs as well so I'll give you a gamer protip:

Those who say "rose tinted goggles!" or "nostalgia" are the ones who've only played 1 MMORPG ever or find it the cool thing to hate on FFXI just because. No one who has ever played more than 1 MMO for a certain amount of time would say it's nostalgia or failing to see the truth because the truth of the matter is, FFXI even though used EQ as a base for MMO systems, was one of the best designed MMORPGs out, especially for when it came out. No other MMO had a tangible storyline that you could actually progress through, it's usually implied.

I've played upwards of 10+ Mud/MMOs for at least 2 years at a time and none have come close to what XI accomplished in it's prime, whether you like or hated it you can't deny what it's done.

So people can fling around "rose tinted goggles" and "nostalgia" all they want, those who've played more than 1 MMO will know it's not nostalgia at all talking, it's simple fact of the matter, MMO gamers these days hate to work for anything, they hate putting in time and effort, this is why a lot of people hated Abyssea for example, not because of nostalgia for the old, but because it just trivialized playing an MMORPG.

I call poisoning the well and ad hoc reasoning here. The fact of the matter is that it would be difficult to get together a functioning old school party of six to stay together for any length of time, perhaps much harder than it was long before Aby came along and streamlined the leveling process.

This is done without isolating any jobs, a huge problem before Aby came about. Now we have one of the most streamlined and hassle free leveling systems of any MMO out there.

And yes, it is very much 'rose tinted glasses' the way people talk about old school partying and I don't miss it any despite one of my most memorable parties having been an old school party.

Rosina

08-03-2012, 04:06 AM

@ elexia

I fully agree with you. I played WoW for 2 years Mabinogi on and off for a year Aion for 6 mnths, Lustrion for a year (the closest community to that of ffxi b4)

Also i do not think speed leveling in 2 caves, then a time restricted field THEN skilling up is efficient.

Thays just leveling fast being lazy then going back.

Max cap was and should be when you have mastered your job. anything b4 max cap should be your learning. There is a HUGE differece between learning ur job, and practicing content. And one shouldn't learn their job from a third party website reading that seems so silly. You don't learn to bake cakes solely reading a recipie... you become better by taking what you learn through personal experince and tweeking it. I've been playing rpgs well before Aol. Honestly its like people are robots... all they do is follow what a third party site tells them. Where is the fun in they?

If you wonder why I think the way I do, was I grew up being taught to think outside the box.

Rosina

08-03-2012, 04:09 AM

I call poisoning the well and ad hoc reasoning here. The fact of the matter is that it would be difficult to get together a functioning old school party of six to stay together for any length of time, perhaps much harder than it was long before Aby came along and streamlined the leveling process.

This is done without isolating any jobs, a huge problem before Aby came about. Now we have one of the most streamlined and hassle free leveling systems of any MMO out there.

And yes, it is very much 'rose tinted glasses' the way people talk about old school partying and I don't miss it any despite one of my most memorable parties having been an old school party.

thats fault of the player base.... not the game. I had freaky party set ups run well. Its all on how patient the players are... the noobs who b-- and moaned couldn't get things done took over. That basically what i feel is what happen. Now the game is full of lazy ppl who insult the older playerbase.

Lynchilles

08-03-2012, 04:16 AM

There is a HUGE differece between learning ur job, and practicing content. And one shouldn't learn their job from a third party website reading that seems so silly. You don't learn to bake cakes solely reading a recipie... you become better by taking what you learn through personal experince and tweeking it.

Why do you insist that there is only one right way people can learn something?

People learn things in different ways, or sometimes not at all.

I learn things better by reading about them first, and then putting what I learn into practice. That's the way I've always been in both life and in video games/rpgs. Am I wrong for learning that way? Please tell me.

I think I speak for a lot of people here when I say I really wish you would stop posting since you are so narrow-minded and constantly abuse inferential logic.

Chuk

08-03-2012, 04:23 AM

Well its funny to see this thread. Again. <insert funny picture of famous person with MSpainted quote about thread>

Hi guys, I just wanted to throw my two cents in and maybe throw a little perspective about parties, exp, and the people that play.

First off, I am going to say that I of all people COMPLETELY DETEST AND DESPISE the old method of leveling. I was a PLD, a RDM, a THF, a WAR, and even sometimes a SAM (for those who remember when skillchains and magic bursts were pretty top dog for exp) and seeking for party was painful. Half the time, there wasn't a healer available or extra support. No redmage refresh? Oh snap WHM doesnt want to party now. Bard poped up? Nope, he doesn't like that we have a THF and we will not make the famous 8k an hour. Those days sucked. It was like waiting for all the planets to align just to finally have a chance to party, and then making mad prayers that the camp your party qualified for was available. Seriously, ask yourself why on earth you would want to play a game set up like that? I did somehow without losing all sense of sanity. But let me tell ya, it was not as fun as it is now. Exp is easy, and its fun because if I want exp or merits, I can go out and get it. Best part? I dont NEED to assemble a party to do it with. I can go solo, or I can as my friends/linkshell members "Hey who wants to get some exp/merits?" Now thats what I call a game! A game I can PLAY WITH MY FRIENDS.

So like it or not, the change in how we level up has changed, and theres no reason at all to even consider stepping back to the anti-social abyss of "old school" leveling. In fact its ironic, NOTHING HAS CHANGED IN THE WAY WE KILL THINGS FOR EXP. It is still the same party make-ups, same tactics, and same process. You still need to auto attack the target, Weaponskill when available, use jobabilities/magic to survive, rinse and repeat. Thats a pretty boring process. At least these days, its isn't me targeting my 1 billionth crab or bird. Praise everything good and holy that we can actually go out and be rewarded for fighting other things in life. I will tell you what has changed though. PEOPLE ARE LESS EDUCATED ABOUT HOW TO FIGHT A MOB THAN HOW TO PARTY. Every time i see someone die to a casting mob or something that paralyzes with a potent paralyze etc. my first thought is "oh man they didn't really know how to handle the situation." Usually turns out to be true as my friends and I procceed to pick them up off the ground. And thats the difference between "old school" and "new school." One group has combat experience in fighting all types of mobs, the other has only seen what GoV and Abyssea parties target. Luckily thats an easy fix for most players, just go out and EXPLORE the game. The wiki is nice, but only experience will teach you how to better yourself.

Well since this turned out to be a wall of text, I think I will write a final paragraph in conclusion to my long winded post. Im going to say this right now, as I read these forums, I oft see many people picking at each other and their posts. Now I am all for defeating bad information, but at the same time lets not rag on peoples ability to type or spell or anything. It really destroys the community and really hurts everyone overall. ALSO, if you are the target of said attacks, YOU NEED TO ALSO TAKE THE INITIATIVE to not respond to such attacks and draw out an arguement over said attacks. As a person who was bullied for many years as a child, I share this tidbit of wisdom. Fighting back in the same way only fuels the fire.

Thank you for reading.
~Chuk

cidbahamut

08-03-2012, 04:25 AM

Max cap was and should be when you have mastered your job. anything b4 max cap should be your learning. There is a HUGE differece between learning ur job, and practicing content.

I mastered my job before hitting the level cap. I was better at my job before the level cap than most players who'd been playing the job for years at cap were. There's nothing special about hitting the level cap in terms of player progression. It's just a number. Sure there's sentimental value to it, but that's about it really.

And one shouldn't learn their job from a third party website reading that seems so silly.

I'm better than most because I spent time on those sites reading and learning. I know it's cliché, but knowledge really is power.

FrankReynolds

08-03-2012, 04:49 AM

I've played quite a few MMOs as well so I'll give you a gamer protip:

Those who say "rose tinted goggles!" or "nostalgia" are the ones who've only played 1 MMORPG ever or find it the cool thing to hate on FFXI just because. No one who has ever played more than 1 MMO for a certain amount of time would say it's nostalgia or failing to see the truth because the truth of the matter is, FFXI even though used EQ as a base for MMO systems, was one of the best designed MMORPGs out, especially for when it came out. No other MMO had a tangible storyline that you could actually progress through, it's usually implied.

I've played upwards of 10+ Mud/MMOs for at least 2 years at a time and none have come close to what XI accomplished in it's prime, whether you like or hated it you can't deny what it's done.

So people can fling around "rose tinted goggles" and "nostalgia" all they want, those who've played more than 1 MMO will know it's not nostalgia at all talking, it's simple fact of the matter, MMO gamers these days hate to work for anything, they hate putting in time and effort, this is why a lot of people hated Abyssea for example, not because of nostalgia for the old, but because it just trivialized playing an MMORPG.

You don't have to spend ten years playing every MMO under the sun to know that sitting in jeuno with your flag up for weeks on end isn't fun. I'm sorry that you are a slow learner. There is a difference between being lazy and not wanting to waste time on trivial crap. The old method is still available. The reason you can't find others to do it with you isn't because they are smart enough to know not to do something they don't like if they don't have to.

Funny you ask. What happened was I quit XI and deleted my character a few weeks before the release of FFXIV. Now I'm back. I quit that game only because you can cap a job in a single day and there is virtually no mid-game. Perhaps you'd be better off sticking to asking questions rather than jumping to conclusions.

Funny... So, you are a hypocrite who got bored of the game and quit before abyssea even became the norm. Congratulations. You are proof that the old leveling methods needed to be changed.

Twille

08-03-2012, 04:54 AM

So, you are a hypocrite who got bored of the game and quit before abyssea even became the norm. Congratulations. You are proof that the old leveling methods needed to be changed.

Quoted for truth. Things are better the way they are now, in my opinion.

Camiie

08-03-2012, 05:14 AM

Every sense eye started reeding theez forumz eye have notised that peeple who reelly like old skool partiez and HNMs have bad languge skillz. Eye hop they r batter n game then they r on four rums.

Modoru

08-03-2012, 05:34 AM

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 05:36 AM

Funny... So, you are a hypocrite who got bored of the game and quit before abyssea even became the norm. Congratulations. You are proof that the old leveling methods needed to be changed.

Who said I got bored of the game? Oh, that's right - you did. In case you're wondering, the post you quoted said something more to the effect that I quit to play FFXIV. Out of curiosity, is it just me, or do you always go around attacking things that don't attack you first? Like trees? - Do you go around punching them at random?

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 05:38 AM

I'd hope to be better than someone on four rums, myself. That said, regardless of whether or not Abyssea exists right now, the point is you can't do anything about it, and the game will certainly not take a 180° turn to the quote-unquote olden days of waiting hours for a 2 hour party for 3 levels at best!

Like it or not, the state of the game is good as is, and will progress in tandem to how people have adapted to it: a faster pace.

Also I haven't slept for a full day again, does this all make sense? someone correct me if I'm not being coherent.

Coherent enough! What I really understand is people trying to justify their distaste for classic FFXI because they essentially got nothing accomplished because it wasn't handed to them. See: "I waited for hours and never got a party"; Well, yanno, usually you don't get much of anything handed to you. If you want it, go get it, and don't blame anyone else but you for your lack of ability in getting EXP on your THF or DRK or whatever.

Rosina

08-03-2012, 05:45 AM

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ffxi+fame
3rd result.
That does not take a half hour.

Wiki is an excellent resource and new players should be encouraged to make use of it.

i'm talking reading each quest in full. Through out the city. And my time posted was an adverage of reading. Not exact time.

Also, I never said it was bad. But not nessiccary either. Use it if people are busy. If someone willing to respond, no need for it.

Modoru

08-03-2012, 05:48 AM

That's hardly fair though -- in a game where getting anything worth getting *required* groups, or at least a decent leveled job beforehand (and this job usually, with decent gear, hence a conundrum), to do reliably without the aid of a group [ie RDM soloers~] meant you needed to have a party to exp, because soloing was pretty much wholly counterproductive! Not only that, save for a few jobs (BST, BLM in some occasions, PUP, SMN), not everyone could solo efficiently, either. There were just a few things that would pretty much hinder the quality of gameplay for a lot of users -- after all, this is a game, meant to be enjoyed, not meant to become a lifestyle in which everyone has to be working their behind off for the progress of one level after a few hours on their own.

I'll follow up on this when I have brain cells!

scaevola

08-03-2012, 05:52 AM

The most hilarious thing about the claims that old-school XP was somehow morally superior to modern XP is the implication that grinding mobs in a classic party was actually objectively difficult and required you to actually be good or get better in order to progress. It took me longer to get to 75 than like anybody, but I never would call it hard. I just switched to SAM and started miraculously getting more invites.

If you think old school partying represented a test of anything other than patience/whether you had anything better to do with your life, I can only conclude you must either be pretty terrible at FFXI or have never done a remotely difficult thing, like, ever!

Rosina

08-03-2012, 05:52 AM

You know what is funny. What i said is actually the truth. I never sat waiting for a party. I either solo'ed, did quests, talk to my linkshell, or formed own party. The only ones who are to blame for "waiting x hours in jeuno" are the people who "waited x hours in jeuno." There was a ton to do in game, there was no need to t in jeuno. Just out your flag up and go do stuff if forming a party wasn't your forte.

So etty much forums (outside a few) are all the noobs who cried over the game because they couldn't leech or got kicked outa there parties for leeching.

FrankReynolds

08-03-2012, 05:57 AM

Who said I got bored of the game? Oh, that's right - you did. In case you're wondering, the post you quoted said something more to the effect that I quit to play FFXIV. Out of curiosity, is it just me, or do you always go around attacking things that don't attack you first? Like trees? - Do you go around punching them at random?

Oh, my bad. You quit the game because it was too awesome for you. Got it.

EDIT: I find it odd that you feel attacked, when you are essentially calling the entire group of people who play this game lazy.

You guys come in here and go "I think everyone who plays this game is lazy. Please force them to work harder for my amusement."

and then you feel attacked? interesting.

Rosina

08-03-2012, 05:58 AM

scaevola

Well before the wiki bible days. Yes this was true. Players had to learn job AS they played. There is more to the game then mindless zerging of mobs. Players had to actually work together, time their skills right or a wipe would happen. You don't learn anything from mindlessly zerging easy pray mobs. You do learn fast when you fight a mob that can rip you apart if your not careful. Players are taking the easy safe way to level.

May I ask how heroic it is to have 18 players attack 1 easy pray mob?

Elexia

08-03-2012, 06:04 AM

I think I speak for a lot of people here when I say I really wish you would stop posting since you are so narrow-minded and constantly abuse inferential logic.

Funny thing is, even though I haven't posted for awhile I can safely say Rosina is the least narrow-minded person here when it comes to this game, especially current state. Maybe over on Cerberus it's different...but honestly? There's more narrow minded people now than there ever were in this game.

scaevola

08-03-2012, 06:05 AM

scaevola

Well before the wiki bible days. Yes this was true. Players had to learn job AS they played. There is more to the game then mindless zerging of mobs. Players had to actually work together, time their skills right or a wipe would happen.

This is not even remotely true.

For instance, did you know that Boost has a not-insubstantial threat component (we would learn years later, thanks to Kaeko, that it's 300 VE, and of course an XP mob is going to die long before anybody caps enmity), so it was much, much better for a low-level (like, pre-60ish, I'd say) tanking WAR to sub MNK than NIN?

No?

I'm not surprised, because nobody ever had to learn this or anything else to get XP! Is your healer capable of curing for more than the mob is capable of hitting for (he is)? Do you have a RDM or BRD for mp recovery? Does at least one person in the group have a rough understanding of what abilities they have that get a lot of threat? If so, congratulations! You can ride this level of knowledge to 75, when players in games like WoW need to surpass it as early as their second dungeon!

EDIT: I phrased this poorly. We were, on average, much, much worse at the game then than we are now, because we spent so much more of our playtime on content we did not have to be good to complete.

Elexia

08-03-2012, 06:12 AM

You don't have to spend ten years playing every MMO under the sun to know that sitting in jeuno with your flag up for weeks on end isn't fun.

I never once sat in Jeuno with my flag up for weeks. Unlike most people who played XI, I was actually proactive, funny how you progress through a game by not sitting on your ass, no?

Lynchilles

08-03-2012, 06:14 AM

Maybe over on Cerberus it's different...but honestly? There's more narrow minded people now than there ever were in this game.

I don't know if you're intentionally trying to be funny, or if you just don't realize the inherent contradiction in your statements.

Twille

08-03-2012, 06:20 AM

Like every other thread Rosina posts in, this thread has become a complete waste of time.

Logandor

08-03-2012, 06:35 AM

I don't think they will ever add the opposite gender for mithra or gulka. Mithra mainly dealing with the past story line some what and gulka...well I don't know their excuse on that call. Maybe a rep could clear that bit of detail up for us.

scaevola

08-03-2012, 07:52 AM

Like every other thread Rosina posts in, this thread has become a complete waste of time.

To be fair, this has at least stayed vaguely on-topic.

Mirage

08-03-2012, 09:02 AM

The only stupid thing about pageburning and such is how easy it is to afk leech. But then again, that's true for any alliance-size exp group that's killing easy prey mobs.

Call me old fashioned, but I really think you should have to do something in order to get exp, not just join a group, go watch TV, then come back capped out.

FrankReynolds

08-03-2012, 09:42 AM

I never once sat in Jeuno with my flag up for weeks. Unlike most people who played XI, I was actually proactive, funny how you progress through a game by not sitting on your ass, no?

So you went out and soloed and did quests and crafted instead? just like you can now? Well then I guess everything is fine. No need to request a change to the exp. system that causes a negative effect on everyone else then huh? kthxbye.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 09:43 AM

Oh, my bad. You quit the game because it was too awesome for you. Got it.

EDIT: I find it odd that you feel attacked, when you are essentially calling the entire group of people who play this game lazy.

You guys come in here and go "I think everyone who plays this game is lazy. Please force them to work harder for my amusement."

and then you feel attacked? interesting.

When you expect to get something for nothing? Well, you said it, not I.

Demon6324236

08-03-2012, 09:55 AM

Your all arguing about something stupid and pointless, why not drop it? You very rarely get something for nothing, if you are, then everyone in the party is to blame.

FrankReynolds

08-03-2012, 09:58 AM

When you expect to get something for nothing? Well, you said it, not I.

Nobody expects something for nothing but you. In the current system, people have numerous options for gaining exp. (including the old method). People letting other people leech is no different from any other form of helping out that takes place in this game. Me sitting there killing snails so that some other guy can skip 18 weeks of tedious soloing on BLM is exactly the same as me helping that same guy get sea access, or kill a NM for a quest. You are the one who expects everyone to give up what they like doing to come do what you think they should do. That guy leeching doesn't ever get pissed and make a thread about it when he gets kicked stating that people should be forced to let him leech. He's happy with what he got.

Merton9999

08-03-2012, 10:12 AM

I hope the new producer returns FFXI to the old ways. I also hope he can convince my city to cancel municipal trash pickup so we can return to the glory days of littered streets and the bubonic plague.

Abyssea was the only part of the game that ever felt like an exciting, enjoyable passtime to me. Much of what came before it made me wonder why on earth I was feeding a frustrating addiction. The Abyssea era was also the only time I actually recommended the game to anyone I knew.

The worst part of these threads isn't that they keep appearing. It also isn't that everyone who starts them seems illiterate. The worst part is that people honestly get behind this "something for nothing" and "work ethic" nonsense that is completely misapplied in this game world. You're not getting paid to play a professional sport to entertain the masses. If you want to put your work ethic into a game, do it there. You're paying to be entertained. Little challenges, puzzles and time sinks can be fun and give people something to look forward to. But I want to work for that entertainment as much as I want to have to run a treadmill to power my television.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 10:27 AM

Nobody expects something for nothing but you. In the current system, people have numerous options for gaining exp. (including the old method). People letting other people leech is no different from any other form of helping out that takes place in this game. Me sitting there killing snails so that some other guy can skip 18 weeks of tedious soloing on BLM is exactly the same as me helping that same guy get sea access, or kill a NM for a quest. You are the one who expects everyone to give up what they like doing to come do what you think they should do. That guy leeching doesn't ever get pissed and make a thread about it when he gets kicked stating that people should be forced to let him leech. He's happy with what he got.

You're obviously going to defend your wayward logic to the bitter end, no matter how silly you sound in the process. I should have guessed that a few pages back, but I can't help but bite. Done arguing with a person that carries around one very big douchebag in his signature. Bye for now.

Falseliberty

08-03-2012, 10:54 AM

Lets say I talk some people or a good friend into trying out XI so they can play with me,
are you saying they should have to endure the old way of lvling crap (6 mths to a year just to get a job to 99)
just so I can play with my Friends.

Abyssea and GoV was much needed to help newcomers catch up and start playing and start enjoying endgame content

inbeforefalsedoesnthaveanyfreinds ; ;

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 11:09 AM

Demon6324236

08-03-2012, 11:15 AM

If "endure" is the word you have to use to describe your experience, then perhaps you're playing the wrong game?

Perhaps your playing the wrong game if you want to take months to years to level up jobs to a level they can do something meaningful, because FFXI isn't that game anymore.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 11:17 AM

Perhaps your playing the wrong game if you want to take months to years to level up jobs to a level they can do something meaningful, because FFXI isn't that game anymore.

You mean it's no longer an RPG? Ok, can't disagree there.

Demon6324236

08-03-2012, 11:34 AM

You mean it's no longer an RPG? Ok, can't disagree there.

There is a difference between an RPG and a meaningless grind for levels that you have to do over and over on any job you want to be able to do much of anything on. RPGs are role playing games, most generally a thing you do in them is have stats, level up, obtain gear, and complete objectives or quests. We have stats, and merits, we still level up even if by a much faster means, we obtain gear almost all the time as that is one of our main goals. Quests are all over, we have the expansion stories, we have the nation stories, we have quests for spells, jobs, AF, Abyssea, VW, everything has a quest or story with it you can follow.

This is still very much a RPG, just because leveling went from a few months of dragging your ass around in areas fighting mobs in tedious battles to leveling up to max lv in 3 days or less, doesn't make it not an RPG, it makes it a fast paced game in terms of leveling.

Reiterpallasch

08-03-2012, 11:40 AM

Eyeballed is like Rosina, but with a spell checker.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 11:43 AM

There is a difference between an RPG and a meaningless grind for levels that you have to do over and over on any job you want to be able to do much of anything on. RPGs are role playing games, most generally a thing you do in them is have stats, level up, obtain gear, and complete objectives or quests. We have stats, and merits, we still level up even if by a much faster means, we obtain gear almost all the time as that is one of our main goals. Quests are all over, we have the expansion stories, we have the nation stories, we have quests for spells, jobs, AF, Abyssea, VW, everything has a quest or story with it you can follow.

This is still very much a RPG, just because leveling went from a few months of dragging your ass around in areas fighting mobs in tedious battles to leveling up to max lv in 3 days or less, doesn't make it not an RPG, it makes it a fast paced game in terms of leveling.

In all other cases of RPG's I've ever played, the world monsters played a key role that, in this game, have pretty much been stood down to the title of novelty outside of a few key zones. Now imagine if your next FF title, that you paid good money for, had 2-3 areas of interest and the rest were boss battles? Does that sit well with you? Does that sound like a finished game? Does it sound like an RPG?

Merton9999

08-03-2012, 11:46 AM

You mean it's no longer an RPG? Ok, can't disagree there.

You can't, by any stretch, equate an RPG with a six-months-to-a-year requirement to level a single job of 20. That's a gross oversimplification or twisting of the definition. The game as it exists now has every element of traditional RPGs. You're adding a required measurement that was never present in single player RPG video games that defined the genre.

Everyone knows that measurement was enforced pre-Abyssea to force subscription length until people got bored enough that they stopped tolerating that dupe. If you still enjoy that aspect, fine. But stop taking that personal preference for a 10-year-old process and elevating it to a moral principle or official definition.

Falseliberty

08-03-2012, 11:49 AM

If "endure" is the word you have to use to describe your experience, then perhaps you're playing the wrong game?

listen things have changed since '03 what was new and exciting back then isn't now. All things change.
I too was one of those people who played a DD job and waited weeks for a invite. please remove the googles... WOTG was the WORST GODDAM THING EVER

Demon6324236

08-03-2012, 11:54 AM

In all other cases of RPG's I've ever played, the world monsters played a key role that, in this game, have pretty much been stood down to the title of novelty outside of a few key zones. Now imagine if your next FF title, that you paid good money for, had 2-3 areas of interest and the rest were boss battles? Does that sit well with you? Does that sound like a finished game? Does it sound like an RPG?

Well~... in most cases of gear hunting which has become a massive focus on this game. Most RPGs the best gear comes from crafting, quests, or bosses, being that its what your mainly describing, yes, sounds exactly like a RPG.

Now you ask about the other areas of interest, I assume you mean for leveling, admittedly yes, leveling is gone, dead, and pointless for the most part because of how fast it has gotten. But then again ask yourself, if you were a brand new player to FFXI, would you want to really spend months to get to a place good enough to enjoy the game with most of the playerbase? I understand the idea of not liking how leveling has gone, but it is something that I think needed to be done for anyone to join this game.

Also it was the only way to stop forcing people to level certain jobs through long periods for certain events. An Example of this is I main RDM, yet few people use my RDM for much of anything in endgame today. I have BLU, DRK, COR, and BRD as well however which I can use for endgame, before that would have been impossible for me because I don't have alot of interest in the jobs and wouldn't have wanted to level them. Now days I can, and then use them in endgame to get things I need for my RDM such as Nyzul gear, or VW gear.

Any areas you see that arnt used heavily for leveling or something of that sort are used for endgame of some sort or for quests, making all areas worth something, but I will admit alot of areas have their existence forgotten about due to how leveling became, and it regrettable even if necessary.

Sp1cyryan

08-03-2012, 11:55 AM

I think I speak for a lot of people here when I say I really wish you would stop posting since you are so narrow-minded and constantly abuse inferential logic.

Rosina's constant lack of any sense and inability to learn anything of note from the discussions on here is incredibly disturbing to the community. But, hey since she does not intend to be that way she will get to stay as long as she wants. A good analogy to notice is when you try to be the village idiot the village guards kick you out, but when you are the village idiot unintentionally the guards let you stay.

When I asked for Mr. Matsui to read, but not grant any forum requests she was one of the reasons I said that.
Baby out with the bathwater!!

Meanwhile: 'They are all against me! They must all be wrong since they can not see it my way!'

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 12:00 PM

You can't, by any stretch, equate an RPG with a six-months-to-a-year requirement to level a single job of 20. That's a gross oversimplification or twisting of the definition. The game as it exists now has every element of traditional RPGs. You're adding a required measurement that was never present in single player RPG video games that defined the genre.

Everyone knows that measurement was enforced pre-Abyssea to force subscription length until people got bored enough that they stopped tolerating that dupe. If you still enjoy that aspect, fine. But stop taking that personal preference for a 10-year-old process and elevating it to a moral principle or official definition.

...To a year? Are you serious? To level 20? Did I read that right, because if I did, I'd take up the challenge right now to level WHM solo 1-75 in less than six months without a book. Besides, isn't that what RPG's have always been known for, taking up lots of time? If that's not the type of game you have the time/patience to play, then what are you doing here in the first place?

Who felt duped? Who are you speaking for? Ten years or 10,000, it doesn't matter; What I enjoy just might be the same that many more do, as well.

Behemothx

08-03-2012, 12:00 PM

OP should learn about the search function, there are TONS of threads about that crap.

Also, OP should learn to type.

Demon6324236

08-03-2012, 12:08 PM

...To a year? Are you serious? To level 20? Did I read that right.

No, he said 1 job of 20, meaning a single job out of the 20 possible options.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 12:10 PM

Well~... in most cases of gear hunting which has become a massive focus on this game. Most RPGs the best gear comes from crafting, quests, or bosses, being that its what your mainly describing, yes, sounds exactly like a RPG.

Now you ask about the other areas of interest, I assume you mean for leveling, admittedly yes, leveling is gone, dead, and pointless for the most part because of how fast it has gotten. But then again ask yourself, if you were a brand new player to FFXI, would you want to really spend months to get to a place good enough to enjoy the game with most of the playerbase? I understand the idea of not liking how leveling has gone, but it is something that I think needed to be done for anyone to join this game.

Also it was the only way to stop forcing people to level certain jobs through long periods for certain events. An Example of this is I main RDM, yet few people use my RDM for much of anything in endgame today. I have BLU, DRK, COR, and BRD as well however which I can use for endgame, before that would have been impossible for me because I don't have alot of interest in the jobs and wouldn't have wanted to level them. Now days I can, and then use them in endgame to get things I need for my RDM such as Nyzul gear, or VW gear.

Any areas you see that arnt used heavily for leveling or something of that sort are used for endgame of some sort or for quests, making all areas worth something, but I will admit alot of areas have their existence forgotten about due to how leveling became, and it regrettable even if necessary.

The problem with "how fast it's gotten" is that rate of progression has never before been a contributing factor in determining level of enjoyment. Ever, in any scenario. Because the devs are charged with coming up with new content in a certain, reasonable period of time, this almost seems counter-productive.

Demon6324236

08-03-2012, 12:15 PM

The problem with "how fast it's gotten" is that rate of progression has never before been a contributing factor in determining level of enjoyment. Ever, in any scenario. Because the devs are charged with coming up with new content in a certain, reasonable period of time, this almost seems counter-productive.

But they don't add content at the mid way point, or beginning, even the new expansion they said is going to be for high level players. This means that in the end high levels are required for fun most of the time, and rather than bore players with slow ways of getting to the fun, this allows people to get to that fun faster.

Merton9999

08-03-2012, 12:18 PM

...To a year? Are you serious? To level 20? Did I read that right, because if I did, I'd take up the challenge right now to level WHM solo 1-75 in less than six months without a book. Besides, isn't that what RPG's have always been known for, taking up lots of time? If that's not the type of game you have the time/patience to play, then what are you doing here in the first place?

Who felt duped? Who are you speaking for? Ten years or 10,000, it doesn't matter; What I enjoy just might be the same that many more do, as well.

To level a single job OF 20. I could have stated it as "to level a single job, out of 20 possible jobs, to level 75." I don't remember my RPGs for taking up time. I remember them for stories, memorable characters and ability and equipment progression, all of which can still be enjoyed in FFXI. If RPGs were based solely on the necessity to take up exorbitant amounts of time, then I'd drop them today. I'll apply patience to my career and family. I'll treat my games like I do my nights at the bar with friends. I'd leave the bar if it took 6 months to get my beer and they made me work for it. Thankfully SE made a world where I can still have the unique experience with friends and family in a FF world and treat it like a game.

I'm glad you enjoyed the old stuff for 10 years. I wish more people would just say they enjoyed it and leave it at that. But you're not. You're making statements that if people don't enjoy it anymore then they have bad work ethics, don't work for their achievements, and shouldn't be playing. It's shallow, narrow-minded and silly.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 12:28 PM

To level a single job OF 20. I could have stated it as "to level a single job, out of 20 possible jobs, to level 75." I don't remember my RPGs for taking up time. I remember them for stories, memorable characters and ability and equipment progression, all of which can still be enjoyed in FFXI. If RPGs were based solely on the necessity to take up exorbitant amounts of time, then I'd drop them today. I'll apply patience to my career and family. I'll treat my games like I do my nights at the bar with friends. I'd leave the bar if it took 6 months to get my beer and they made me work for it. Thankfully SE made a world where I can still have the unique experience with friends and family in a FF world and treat it like a game.

I'm glad you enjoyed the old stuff for 10 years. I wish more people would just say they enjoyed it and leave it at that. But you're not. You're making statements that if people don't enjoy it anymore then they have bad work ethics, don't work for their achievements, and shouldn't be playing. It's shallow, narrow-minded and silly.

What I'm trying to get across is, this game was fashioned around a style of play that I, for one, enjoyed participating in.

I think it would be easier to accept if we had some alternative that is much more XI circa 2005 than WoW. It's like getting a basketball for your birthday because your parents know you like basketball because you play it so often, but one day you come home and the basketball's gone and been replaced with a cricket bat. You're left standing there, hands out, mouth agape, with this stunned look on your face. Cricket: The new Basketball.

Trisscar

08-03-2012, 12:36 PM

Besides, isn't that what RPG's have always been known for, taking up lots of time?

http://i.qkme.me/3odp9c.jpg

If you were to look up any RPG in existence that has a leveling system will have entire web pages dedicated to how to burn through the levels quickly. Why? Because level grinding sucks.

Merton9999

08-03-2012, 12:36 PM

What I'm trying to get across is, this game was fashioned around a style of play that I, for one, enjoyed participating in.

And I respect that immensely. I'll cheer you on as you shout what you love to do from the rooftops. Sorry the game isn't like that for you now. But owning your preference for a video game world doesn't require passing it off as the official definition of RPGs everyone else should accept or gtfo.

What exactly is stopping people from gathering up for some days of 70-75 fun page-less and ring-less in KRT? Is it frustrating because they can't find more people that want to do that so they want SE to force it on everyone for their benefit? This goes beyond personal preference to changing everyone else's game, and that I don't respect.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 12:41 PM

This goes beyond personal preference to changing everyone else's game, and that I don't respect.

Just like Abyssea has, for us?

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 12:43 PM

http://i.qkme.me/3odp9c.jpg

If you were to look up any RPG in existence that has a leveling system will have entire web pages dedicated to how to burn through the levels quickly. Why? Because level grinding sucks.

Your opinion is noted. :)

Trisscar

08-03-2012, 12:44 PM

Just like Abyssea has, for us?

In what way? The ability to do old school partying is still there. You'll simply be doing it forever alone, as you deserve.

Merton9999

08-03-2012, 12:47 PM

Just like Abyssea has, for us?

Sure it has, but when did I pass off Abyssea as the canonical RPG definition, or say if you don't enjoy it then leave? It's not peoples' preferences I have issues with. I'll contribute a vote for keeping the game the way it is now, realizing others won't like it. I won't try to make the fact that I like fast xp so I can enjoy what I see as the actual game now on a variety of jobs as a moral crusade on work ethics.

Trisscar

08-03-2012, 12:49 PM

Your opinion is noted. :)

In what way is anything I said an opinion?

Fact: There are web pages dedicated to level burning for every RPG with a level grinding system. There are a shit ton for Diablo III, and it hasn't been out for nearly as long as Final Fantasy XI (which also has such web pages dedicated to the same thing, many of which going back since the beginning).

Conclusion: People don't like level grinding and want to get through it as quickly as possible.

Mooshywooshy

08-03-2012, 01:10 PM

Wait whats wrong with WoW again? The fact that back in the 2000s it was a competitor...? If WoW was skinned with FFXI models and monsters, and had a (Final Fantasy) storyline anywhere near existent (That I could understand without playing 40 games previous from 1990) id play the poop out of it until my brains fell out. But thats just my opinion.

Nawesemo

08-03-2012, 02:01 PM

/epic facepalm

Arcon

08-03-2012, 02:15 PM

Just like Abyssea has, for us?

I think Abyssea blows and I still completely disagree with you.

In what way is anything I said an opinion?

See this:

Because level grinding sucks.

Also, your conclusion isn't a conclusion at all, it's a generalization, and generalizations never work.

Two things. First of all, an RPG is defined by character progression. You can choose a role for your character and develop it in that direction. That does not require EXP at all. You can have RPGs that strictly focus on skill levels, selective abilities and gear, without any character levels in the entire game.

Secondly, why do you care for FFXI being an RPG? Who cares at all about the genre? FFXI is a game. If it's fun, people play it, if it isn't, people don't. Why is it important to fit the rules and guidelines of a certain class of game? If FFXI ceased to be an RPG by definition, I wouldn't give a fuck about it. I probably wouldn't even notice. And you probably wouldn't either.

It's simply a matter of tastes and statistics. Many people don't like EXP, so Abyssea is good for them (in that respect). There's still many people who enjoy EXPing. I've been getting a flood of players recently that refuse to leech EXP at all (even though I offered it to them at several points) and instead GoV it up and take longer to reach 99. Nothing wrong with that either. Just don't go posting about people being lazy or people's ideas of what's right being wrong, because none of that applies. I could as well call you lazy for taking a plane to Hawaii instead of swimming there, but it's none of my business how you plan your travel routes.

Trisscar

08-03-2012, 02:24 PM

Arcon I'm not trying to dictate how people should and should not level. Personally I don't leach my jobs, because I can't afford to shell out that kind of money, but neither do I go leveling the old school way because there are quicker and less stress inducing ways to gain levels.

Also my conclusion is very much a conclusion. People will usually find quicker, more efficient ways to level so they can get to the real fun... Which isn't level grinding, in case you didn't know.

Arcon

08-03-2012, 02:40 PM

Arcon I'm not trying to dictate how people should and should not level.

Sorry, most of that post was not even directed at you but at Eyeballed. I should have said so.

Also my conclusion is very much a conclusion. People will usually find quicker, more efficient ways to level so they can get to the real fun... Which isn't level grinding, in case you didn't know.

The "people" in there is a generalization, because it most certainly does not apply to all people. If it did, most people in my LS would jump at the offer of me leveling them to 99 FC style (and we wouldn't have these ridiculous threads). A conclusion would be that there are people who feel that way, but there's no telling how many.

Trisscar

08-03-2012, 02:51 PM

The "people" in there is a generalization, because it most certainly does not apply to all people. If it did, most people in my LS would jump at the offer of me leveling them to 99 FC style (and we wouldn't have these ridiculous threads). A conclusion would be that there are people who feel that way, but there's no telling how many.

Why did everyone go to areas around Whitegate for experience points? Why did people then abandon those areas for more fruitful zones? Because people will look for the most efficient, quickest and least stressful ways of earning experience points even if they don't leach.

Why? Grinding sucks big, giant, hairy, mutant Galka balls and people will always seek to make level grinding go by as quickly as possible.

Arcon

08-03-2012, 02:59 PM

Why? Grinding sucks big, giant, hairy, mutant Galka balls and people will always seek to make level grinding go by as quickly as possible.

You're not arguing against me. I agree with you. I hate leveling and I haven't done it since I saw the first FC shout. I was just pointing out that it still is an opinion, even if the majority agrees (although I'm not even sure about that anymore). How else could you explain threads like these?

Trisscar

08-03-2012, 03:41 PM

How else could you explain threads like these?

I suspect it's something like this:

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/19987686.jpg

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 07:01 PM

In what way is anything I said an opinion?

Fact: There are web pages dedicated to level burning for every RPG with a level grinding system. There are a shit ton for Diablo III, and it hasn't been out for nearly as long as Final Fantasy XI (which also has such web pages dedicated to the same thing, many of which going back since the beginning).

Conclusion: People don't like level grinding and want to get through it as quickly as possible.

You said, "Level grinding sucks.", and that is an opinion. I don't care if there are 10 million websites that not only guide you through the process that have banners and neon signs exclaiming as much. It's still a big, fat, hairy Galka's balls opinion.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 07:06 PM

Secondly, why do you care for FFXI being an RPG? Who cares at all about the genre? FFXI is a game. If it's fun, people play it, if it isn't, people don't. Why is it important to fit the rules and guidelines of a certain class of game? If FFXI ceased to be an RPG by definition, I wouldn't give a fuck about it. I probably wouldn't even notice. And you probably wouldn't either.

Well, you're absolutely wrong about that. The second sentence tells me all I need to know. What's your favorite genre of game? Imagine if I told you that tomorrow, they're cutting out 90% of the content you enjoy, and it could be forever. Now how do you feel about it?

Arcon

08-03-2012, 07:20 PM

Well, you're absolutely wrong about that. The second sentence tells me all I need to know. What's your favorite genre of game? Imagine if I told you that tomorrow, they're cutting out 90% of the content you enjoy, and it could be forever. Now how do you feel about it?

You didn't understand what I said. RPG is just a name. Who cares if it meets all the criteria for it to be called that? It still has many elements you enjoyed from that genre. Does that mean you have to dislike it now? Just because it can't boast the RPG-designation anymore?

Keep in mind that this was a hypothetical case. As I said before, FFXI is still a RPG. This was just to illustrate how pointless it is to judge games by whether or not they fit in a specific genre compared to the approach of judging them by their features, which is what you should be doing.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 07:34 PM

You didn't understand what I said. RPG is just a name. Who cares if it meets all the criteria for it to be called that? It still has many elements you enjoyed from that genre. Does that mean you have to dislike it now? Just because it can't boast the RPG-designation anymore?

Keep in mind that this was a hypothetical case. As I said before, FFXI is still a RPG. This was just to illustrate how pointless it is to judge games by whether or not they fit in a specific genre compared to the approach of judging them by their features, which is what you should be doing.

Because in my opinion, it doesn't feel like one any more. Not in the way it's currently being designed and embraced. I don't have to like or dislike it, but as a matter of fact, I do not like it.

Eric

08-03-2012, 07:54 PM

Because in my opinion, it doesn't feel like one any more. Not in the way it's currently being designed and embraced. I don't have to like or dislike it, but as a matter of fact, I do not like it.

Then go play another game. What you're asking for is too much. You don't play an MMO with the idea that the game developers are going to turn the game into something that suits your personal tastes, despite the fact that you're one of the few people who wants the things you're asking for. It's a selfish and deluded way of thinking.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 08:13 PM

Then go play another game. What you're asking for is too much. You don't play an MMO with the idea that the game developers are going to turn the game into something that suits your personal tastes, despite the fact that you're one of the few people who wants the things you're asking for. It's a selfish and deluded way of thinking.

You mean revert it back to the way it used to be? Back when I bought it? That's like saying, "I bought a brand new sports car last year and last month it spontaneously morphed into a mini-van". And, you're saying I should just be OK with that; That's a selfish way of thinking?

Sarick

08-03-2012, 08:16 PM

Because in my opinion, it doesn't feel like one any more. Not in the way it's currently being designed and embraced. I don't have to like or dislike it, but as a matter of fact, I do not like it.

Unless, you can get your post more positive votes/likes than the tiny minority you have. Our community has shown you that your vote, opinion and/or request deserves the middle finger. Why the middle finger?, because you want to break our game again. The majority seems to like the changes to the experience point syatem. By telling the new developer DO IT MY WAY I'm the target audience you're trying to go over everyone eases head. This topic is arrogant like you're some special prodigy person that deserves a direct audience with the developer.

In before you say something like, the members of these forums don't represent the community. I'm going to point this out. If they care enough to visit these forums and contribute they're vested interest is greater then the average Jane/Joe on the game.

Look at this closely..

The FFXI community has spoken, the majority has spoken, The community has voted the majority has voted.

YOU ARE THE MINORITY, YOU LOST GET OVER YOURSELF!:mad:

Unless the developers are crazy they'll ignore your request completely. There's no need for you to try and defend your argument at this point doing so only makes it more apparent how much the player majority disagrees with you. Everyone has a right to an opinion but most of them post suggestions to the community as a whole not to the producer directly.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 08:32 PM

Unless, you can get your post more positive votes/likes than the tiny minority you have. Our community has shown you that your vote, opinion and/or request deserves the middle finger. Why the middle finger?, because you want to break our game again. The majority seems to like the changes to the experience point syatem. By telling the new developer DO IT MY WAY I'm the target audience you're trying to go over everyone eases head. This topic is arrogant like you're some special prodigy person that deserves a direct audience with the developer.

Look at this closely..

The FFXI community has spoken, the majority has spoken, The community has voted the majority has voted.

YOU ARE THE MINORITY, YOU LOST GET OVER YOURSELF!:mad:

Unless the developers are crazy they'll ignore your request completely. There's no need for you to try and defend your argument at this point doing so only makes it more apparent how much the player majority disagrees with you. Everyone has a right to an opinion but most of them post suggestions to the community as a whole not to the producer directly.

Here's a link to another game that you may or may not be familiar with that's currently struggling, and has been for a long time. Related Forum Post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/49828-Stop-the-Grind-to-the-Endgame-madness%21?p=756779&highlight=stop+grind+endgame#post756779).

Notice the count on your precious "Like" button.

Sarick

08-03-2012, 08:54 PM

Here's a link to another game that you may or may not be familiar with that's currently struggling, and has been for a long time. Related Forum Post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/49828-Stop-the-Grind-to-the-Endgame-madness%21?p=756779&highlight=stop+grind+endgame#post756779).

Notice the count on your precious "Like" button.

getting to level 10, 15, 20, 30 real challenges away from the repetitive levequests, and gratify us with oportunities that open up at every stage: Environmental puzzles, mysteriously coded scrolls, incomplete maps, a bit of Myst in Eorzea.

This is about making it more relevant, for people to want to take another path. The topic says STOP THE GRIND TO ENDGAME MADNESS. You're topic is requesting to make it a grind or bring back the grind. The link you posted doesn't ask to bring back the old leveling system. It ask to improve on the game to new standards. The developers have already been doing this by adding level sync, FOV GOV etc. It's completely opposite the way your topic promotes changes.

This logic of yours fails. I would agree with this guy and still not agree with the post topic you made because you're asking for something different. You're asking to force the old ways back on players. The post you link ask to make the experience more enjoyable with a higher sense of satisfaction/accomplishment. The BRING back the old ways you promote is apples vs oranges and doesn't accomplish this for 90% of the player base.

Point, you still lose.

EDIT :

This as well :

All I saw was a link to a forum regarding a game that was not FFXI and is therefor not relevant to this discussion.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 09:02 PM

This is about making it more relevant, for people to want to take another path. The topic says STOP THE GRIND. You're asking in your topic to make it a grind or bring back the grind. The link you posted doesn't ask to bring back the old leveling system it ask to improve on the game. The devs have been doing this by adding level sync, FOV GOV etc. already.

This logic of yours fails. I would agree with this guy and still not agree with the post topic you made because you're asking for something different. You're asking to force the old ways back on players. The post you link ask to make the experience more enjoyable with a higher sense of satisfaction/accomplishment. The BRING back the old ways you promote is apples vs oranges and doesn't accomplish this for 90% of the player base.

Point, you still lose.

Do you always read exactly what you want to?

End anti-newbie discrimination, make every level count. Slow down the pace of advancement. Smell the flowers. Struggle with difficult mobs at every level. Enter awesome events at every step. I long for a game in which the steps forward are packed with excitement and opportunities for fun. Not a rat-race to the end; the end being the only place where you will be considered someone by your fellow-players.

This is actually more casual-player-friendly than accelerating and stultifying the game, so that almost anybody can get to the "fun-filled end."

End-obsessed game design fosters fascistic behavior in the community. Plus, it rewards the slacker that doesn't want a life, whereas it penalizes the player with the regular life. Making the advancement mechanics super-easy, the way the developers of this game sometimes seem to believe they should, does not improve the chances for anybody: The "Über" get to the end and get bored too early, the casuals never catch up, and are still discriminated.

There. That's the rest of it you failed to read.

Demon6324236

08-03-2012, 09:18 PM

Plus, it rewards the slacker that doesn't want a life, whereas it penalizes the player with the regular life.Is this really something we should be rewarding or penalizing? Seems like its a little backwards.

Sarick

08-03-2012, 09:21 PM

Do you always read exactly what you want to?

End anti-newbie discrimination, make every level count. Slow down the pace of advancement. Smell the flowers. Struggle with difficult mobs at every level. Enter awesome events at every step. I long for a game in which the steps forward are packed with excitement and opportunities for fun. Not a rat-race to the end; the end being the only place where you will be considered someone by your fellow-players.

This is actually more casual-player-friendly than accelerating and stultifying the game, so that almost anybody can get to the "fun-filled end."

End-obsessed game design fosters fascistic behavior in the community. Plus, it rewards the slacker that doesn't want a life, whereas it penalizes the player with the regular life. Making the advancement mechanics super-easy, the way the developers of this game sometimes seem to believe they should, does not improve the chances for anybody: The "Über" get to the end and get bored too early, the casuals never catch up, and are still discriminated.

There. That's the rest of it you failed to read.

You do realize, most people who read topics that have a large general scope of interest decide based on what influences them the most in the subject matter. This means that if the writer touches on one or two good points a neutral point and one bad point they'll still give a thumbs up. This doesn't mean they agree with everything in the topic. It means that poster did a good job at making everything balance out in an intelligent way.

Like I said people don't agree with your post. You are threatening to the community and propose to the producer directly. The request you make is bring back old school grinding. No one wants this. They do like the idea of having fun and if it's not obvious having fun currently doesn't involve spending all day looking for party or getting one level.

This is why your topic fails so hard and the other topic succeeds so well. You did a horrible job at making people like what you have to say because the way you advertise is what people hate the most. Perhaps you should've just cut and past that link or just plain bumped that topic because the topic you made sure isn't selling anyone who wants a better game.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 09:27 PM

You do realize, most people who read topics that have a large general scope of interest decide based on what influences them the most in the subject matter. This means that if the writer touches on one or two good points a neutral point and one bad point they'll still give a thumbs up. This doesn't mean they agree with everything in the topic. It means that poster did a good job at making everything balance out in an intelligent way.

Like I said people don't agree with your post. You are threatening to the community and propose to the producer directly. The request you make is bring back old school grinding. No one wants this. They do like the idea of having fun and if it's not obvious having fun currently doesn't involve spending all day looking for party or getting one level.

This is why your topic fails so hard and the other topic succeeds so well. You did a horrible job at making people like what you have to say because the way you advertise is what people hate the most. Perhaps you should've just cut and past that link or just plain bumped that topic because the topic you made sure isn't selling anyone.

...So, according to your first paragraph you're voluntarily saying that the "Like" button should actually carry little sway because people will pick out one thing they like and then press it? You know what I think? I think the majority of 119 people read the post and understood it and acted accordingly. Sorry if you can't or won't see that.

I want to be threatening to the community, if you haven't gathered as much yet. "No one wants this" - speak for yourself. There are others out there who definitely do, they just don't play this game much any more.

FrankReynolds

08-03-2012, 09:39 PM

cidbahamut

08-03-2012, 09:41 PM

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 09:50 PM

All I saw was a link to a forum regarding a game that was not FFXI and is therefor not relevant to this discussion.

And unfortunately, that is all you will ever see.

Sarick

08-03-2012, 09:55 PM

...So, according to your first paragraph you're voluntarily saying that the "Like" button should actually carry little sway because people will pick out one thing they like and then press it? You know what I think? I think the majority of 119 people read the post and understood it and acted accordingly. Sorry if you can't or won't see that.

I want to be threatening to the community, if you haven't gathered as much yet. "No one wants this" - speak for yourself. There are others out there who definitely do, they just don't play this game much any more.

How about this. Instead of trying to tell the developers how to make the game without suggesting features that would make it better you stand up and suggest how they do it without screwing over the community? The developers have done things like fields of valor, Grounds of Valor, Kappa Powers etc. to encourage what the other poster ask.

Simply, sitting back and telling the developers DO IT. Why can't you suggest HOW they can do it to the community? If you can't make a solution then you're putting a foot in your mouth. The same go's for the fellow with 100+ likes. If you think you have what it takes then by all means do so and stop telling the developers go back to 2004 for you so you can get an old school party.

Example...
Here, I'll help you out. Why not make lower trials that encourage doing FOV/GOV mobs for end game gear (weapons etc). If the player completes a specific range of those equivalent to their level monsters within 5-10 range in FOV or GOV at lower levels they can skip some of the higher tier trials to unlock end game gear.

See how easy it is. Instead of l just telling them to FIX/BREAK stuff offer suggestions to the community how to fix it. Do not just tell the producer to fix it. If someone walks up to you and says "You aren't a good person fix it" It doesn't go very far into making you better. They need to tell you what needs fixed and suggest how it can be fixed in detail.

So, now that you have the chance, stop beating a dead horse (this topic) and wasting peoples time. Make some suggestions to the community to fix the stuff you want to be better. Obviously, you desire a better game. If you really do want it to get better step up to the plate and innovate some of your own ideas instead of telling the developer to bring back stuff people hate.

As for the vote thing, I already explained why people disagree with your topic. If you still don't get it that's your problem not mine.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 10:08 PM

How about this. Instead of trying to tell the developers how to make the game without suggesting features that would make it better you stand up and suggest how they do it without screwing over the community? The developers have done things like fields of valor, Grounds of Valor, Kappa Powers etc. to encourage what the other poster ask.

Simply, sitting back and telling the developers DO IT. Why can't you suggest HOW they can do it to the community? If you can't make a solution then you're putting a foot in your mouth. The same go's for the fellow with 100+ likes. If you think you have what it takes then by all means do so and stop telling the developers go back to 2004 for you so you can get an old school party.

Example...
Here, I'll help you out. Why not make lower trials that encourage doing FOV/GOV mobs for end game gear (weapons etc). If the player completes a specific range of those equivalent to their level monsters within 5-10 range in FOV or GOV at lower levels they can skip some of the higher tier trials to unlock end game gear.

See how easy it is. Instead of l just telling them to FIX/BREAK stuff offer suggestions to the community how to fix it. Do not just tell the producer to fix it. If someone walks up to you and says "You aren't a good person fix it" It doesn't go very far into making you better. They need to tell you what needs fixed and suggest how it can be fixed in detail.

So, now that you have the chance, stop beating a dead horse (this topic) and wasting peoples time. Make some suggestions to the community to fix the stuff you want to be better. Obviously, you desire a better game. If you really do want it to get better step up to the plate and innovate some of your own ideas instead of telling the developer to bring back stuff people hate.

As for the vote thing, I already explained why people disagree with your topic. If you still don't get it that's your problem not mine.

I can make a solution. Get rid of Abyssea and auto-repeat book pages. Take it back to the way it was. Happy? And no, I won't stop. Sorry.

Mirage

08-03-2012, 10:16 PM

Get rid of abyssea. Yeah, how do you intend to implement that? Every new player that starts from now on will never be able to get any of the gear that comes from abyssea, while 99.9% of everyone else's inventory is bursting at the seams with gear? How do you suggest that these new players will get a voidwatch party with gimp level 75 gear?

Or are you planning on wiping away every level, gil and item that 300k players have obtained over the last 2 years? If you don't see how much your idea would kill the game, all hope might be lost for you.

NanoFox

08-03-2012, 10:16 PM

I can make a solution. Get rid of Abyssea and auto-repeat book pages. Take it back to the way it was. Happy? And no, I won't stop. Sorry.
Well as for that solution i can honestly say it aint ever gonna happen.. deal with it.

Sarick

08-03-2012, 10:28 PM

I can make a solution. Get rid of Abyssea and auto-repeat book pages. Take it back to the way it was. Happy? And no, I won't stop. Sorry.

The your quote above makes it clear why the developers and other readers should/will ignore your request. Failed logic with arrogance at this scale proves so many points others have made in this topic.

You can, defend your argument until cows lactate gasoline, It won't matter because you can't innovate something productive enough to solve the problems you want fixed. In general, you invalidate your entire argument. Anyone with a inkling of intelligence would realize listening to you would prove more destructive then beneficial.

It's also apparent, that you lack the creditability I initially gave you to argue your point. There is nothing to see here guys and gals. I do hope some of those people who clicked like on your topic post QUICKLY rationalize their choice.

For others reading this, please go and click like on the 3rd post in this topic that says. "There is no disagree button." The developers don't need people like this giving them suggestions to make the game worse.

cidbahamut

08-03-2012, 10:30 PM

I can make a solution. Get rid of Abyssea and auto-repeat book pages. Take it back to the way it was. Happy? And no, I won't stop. Sorry.

Bad game design is never a solution. Never.

Sarick

08-03-2012, 10:53 PM

All I saw was a link to a forum regarding a game that was not FFXI and is therefor not relevant to this discussion.

Ahh I didn't catch this, it's not even FFXI!! it's 14 LOL. TY for bringing this to my attention.

This quote below still rings WTF.

I can make a solution. Get rid of Abyssea and auto-repeat book pages. Take it back to the way it was. Happy? And no, I won't stop. Sorry.

Eyeballed

08-03-2012, 11:09 PM

The your quote above makes it clear why the developers and other readers should/will ignore your request. Failed logic with arrogance at this scale proves so many points others have made in this topic.

You can, defend your argument until cows lactate gasoline, It won't matter because you can't innovate something productive enough to solve the problems you want fixed. In general, you invalidate your entire argument. Anyone with a inkling of intelligence would realize listening to you would prove more destructive then beneficial.

It's also apparent, that you lack the creditability I initially gave you to argue your point. There is nothing to see here guys and gals. I do hope some of those people who clicked like on your topic post QUICKLY rationalize their choice.

For others reading this, please go and click like on the 3rd post in this topic that says. "There is no disagree button." The developers don't need people like this giving them suggestions to make the game worse.

This isn't my topic, if you haven't noticed (Anyone with an inkling of intelligence can see that). I'm just the one that refuses to let it die, because that's exactly what you want, and if you were smart about it you'd let it go and stop replying. All you're doing at this point is arguing subjectivity and keeping the thread on top where the devs can see it.

Of course listening to me is destructive. See "subjective".

Khiinroye

08-03-2012, 11:50 PM

Let's go back to 2 - 2.5k per hour parties. Everyone will surely enjoy the 560 to 700 hours of xping to get a single job from 75 to 99. Or we could play though what, 10 rpgs?

Sarick

08-03-2012, 11:56 PM

This isn't my topic, if you haven't noticed (Anyone with an inkling of intelligence can see that). I'm just the one that refuses to let it die, because that's exactly what you want, and if you were smart about it you'd let it go and stop replying. All you're doing at this point is arguing subjectivity and keeping the thread on top where the devs can see it.

Of course listening to me is destructive. See "subjective".

This is my intention, to show people this >>

I can make a solution. Get rid of Abyssea and auto-repeat book pages. Take it back to the way it was. Happy? And no, I won't stop. Sorry.

Wow, WTF.. Either way win win.

Demon6324236

08-03-2012, 11:58 PM

A simple way to explain it. FFXIV and FFXI are different games. I have never experienced FFXIV, however looking at that post you directed us to it seems as if partly why they wish it changed is due to small amounts of endgame content or not much being added. 2.0 is likely the reason for this so their request does make some sense, if they are stuck with small amounts of content then at least draw it out a lil that way they can have something to do till 2.0. Now this is not the same as FFXI, here we have alot of endgame. We have Abyssea, we have Voidwatch, we have Neo-Dynamis/Nyzul/Limbus/Einherjar/(soon to be)Salvage, we have Legion. There is some I didn't list as well, some you can arguably call endgame or not such as PW, AV, and even Kirin. We have endgame, lots of it, a new expansion even focused on endgame. We are not suffering the same thing, and its not the same game.

Your point you tried to make by that is pointless in my opinion. However I will agree in 1 aspect of it, likes do matter. Not nearly as much as they could, because yes, some people will blindly "like" a post, but alot of cases, it shows how many people agree with you. In this thread, you have 6 Likes on post 1, which was presenting the same idea you are fighting for, and there is post 3 with 31 Likes, which was against the idea you & the OP seem to share. Now if it were 6 and 7, or 30 and 33, I might say you have some even ground, or blind likes could effect it. But your talking 6 vs 30, 5 times more people agree that they want a dislike button for this idea, than the amount of people who like the idea.

Lynchilles

08-04-2012, 12:12 AM

Sarick you may as well just give up. There's no sense in arguing with a child or an adult with a child's intellect (whichever the case may be).

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 12:14 AM

A simple way to explain it. FFXIV and FFXI are different games. I have never experienced FFXIV, however looking at that post you directed us to it seems as if partly why they wish it changed is due to small amounts of endgame content or not much being added.

Your point you tried to make by that is pointless in my opinion. However I will agree in 1 aspect of it, likes do matter. Not nearly as much as they could, because yes, some people will blindly "like" a post, but alot of cases, it shows how many people agree with you. In this thread, you have 6 Likes on post 1, which was presenting the same idea you are fighting for, and there is post 3 with 31 Likes, which was against the idea you & the OP seem to share. Now if it were 6 and 7, or 30 and 33, I might say you have some even ground, or blind likes could effect it. But your talking 6 vs 30, 5 times more people agree that they want a dislike button for this idea, than the amount of people who like the idea.

Different games with the same problem. You have the people that liked this game for what it was circa 2005 that jumped into XIV expecting the same, and instead what they got was FFXI 2012. They don't like it. Add up the 119 likes in that post versus all those likes you account for in your second paragraph. You said all you had to say about the subject when you said, "I've never played 14". Therefore, you have no opinion about 14.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 12:16 AM

Sarick you may as well just give up. There's no sense in arguing with a child or an adult with a child's intellect (whichever the case may be).

Oh, I guess I'm a child now because I can hold a debate without tossing out insults? Absurd.

Elexia

08-04-2012, 12:17 AM

Bad game design is never a solution. Never.

Funny how this worked out for FFXI for 10 years didn't it? Notice how people will gladly say x, y, z is bad about FFXI..yet here we are 10 years later.

Lynchilles

08-04-2012, 12:18 AM

Oh, I guess I'm a child now because I can hold a debate without tossing out insults? Absurd.

Where did I say it was you? Thanks for proving my point :)

Trisscar

08-04-2012, 12:18 AM

I can make a solution. Get rid of Abyssea and auto-repeat book pages. Take it back to the way it was.

I'm sorry, are you trying to be taken seriously here? This is a moronic idea.

You still don't seem to get it, the option to party exactly in this fashion still exists. Go do it and stop bothering the rest of us, will you?

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 12:22 AM

Where did I say it was you? Thanks for proving my point :)

It's okay, you can come out and say it. Don't be afraid. It's not like there were 20 others in the major minority in this thread the last 10 pages.

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 12:43 AM

Different games with the same problem. You have the people that liked this game for what it was circa 2005 that jumped into XIV expecting the same, and instead what they got was FFXI 2012. They don't like it. Add up the 119 likes in that post versus all those likes you account for in your second paragraph. You said all you had to say about the subject when you said, "I've never played 14". Therefore, you have no opinion about 14.

Your right, I do not, and as I said they are different games. Nothing you say can change the fact they are different games. Different things apply to different games, and different amounts of people want different things for different games. An example of this, is in fact this thread. There, 119 people that jumped up and down with glee at the idea of it happening, here, 6 did. Now I don't honestly feel like looking for a post in the thread for a different game that says they don't like the idea, but Ill tell you this much, here, your idea is unpopular, and thats for this game, not a different one.

Something to take away from this post is that they are in fact different. Now, that community seems to be where you belong, so why not move there? Get away from FFXI, leave the people here who want it as it is, and join those who have your same ideals over on the other game, one which I am sure is getting more work and attention and this game is.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 12:49 AM

Your right, I do not, and as I said they are different games. Nothing you say can change the fact they are different games. Different things apply to different games, and different amounts of people want different things for different games. An example of this, is in fact this thread. There, 119 people that jumped up and down with glee at the idea of it happening, here, 6 did. Now I don't honestly feel like looking for a post in the thread for a different game that says they don't like the idea, but Ill tell you this much, here, your idea is unpopular, and thats for this game, not a different one.

Something to take away from this post is that they are in fact different. Now, that community seems to be where you belong, so why not move there? Get away from FFXI, leave the people here who want it as it is, and join those who have your same ideals over on the other game, one which I am sure is getting more work and attention and this game is.

You know, for the people of the minority in your corner on the 14 boards, this is exactly what they had to say as well. "Go away and leave us alone, masochist! Go find another game to play!" So, here I am. Maybe you're right. Just shut them all down because they all fail at providing an entertaining, engaging experience that's got substance and difficulty from start to finish. Join us, or die, is that it?

scaevola

08-04-2012, 12:52 AM

EVE and Aion both do a way better job of giving you that 2005 FFXI feel than 2005 FFXI ever did. Maybe you should try them!

scaevola

08-04-2012, 12:54 AM

There's always Lineage 2!

Literally. The internet will shut down as we will have run out of natural resources through which to create electricity, and Lineage 2 will find a way to keep going.

Eric

08-04-2012, 12:55 AM

You know, for the people of the minority in your corner on the 14 boards, this is exactly what they had to say as well. "Go away and leave us alone, masochist! Go find another game to play!" So, here I am. Maybe you're right. Just shut them all down because they all fail at providing an entertaining, engaging experience that's got substance and difficulty from start to finish. Join us, or die, is that it?Yeah. Because the game isn't going to change to meet your personal expectations and interests. Enough people are happy with the direction the game has taken.

XIV is a different case because so many people were so unhappy with the game that they lost an incredible amount of players. We haven't had that sort of mass desertion in FFXI yet, so there's no reason to cater to people like you who romanticize the past simply because they've been gone too long to remember how bad some things truly were.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 12:57 AM

Yeah. Because the game isn't going to change to meet your personal expectations and interests. Enough people are happy with the direction the game has taken.

XIV is a different case because so many people were so unhappy with the game that they lost an incredible amount of players. We haven't had that sort of mass desertion in FFXI yet, so there's no reason to cater to people like you who romanticize the past simply because they've been gone too long to remember how bad some things truly were.

Well, in that case, don't expect me to go quietly.

Arcon

08-04-2012, 12:57 AM

Oh, I guess I'm a child now because I can hold a debate without tossing out insults? Absurd.

You're a child because you refuse to listen to reason and value your opinion over other peoples' and somehow think that's appropriate behavior.

Eric

08-04-2012, 12:58 AM

Well, in that case, don't expect me to go quietly.

Why? it's not going to change anything. all you're doing is wasting your time and annoying people. The past few pages of this thread have shown you that a ton of people clearly don't agree with you.

Trisscar

08-04-2012, 01:03 AM

Well, in that case, don't expect me to go quietly.

Go quietly or not, we don't care which. Just go.

cidbahamut

08-04-2012, 01:03 AM

EVE and Aion both do a way better job of giving you that 2005 FFXI feel than 2005 FFXI ever did. Maybe you should try them!

I'll second that recommendation for Aion. That game is grind-tastic. I spent a month playing it with some friends and could not for the life of me catch up to where they all were. No fast-track to level cap there.

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 01:03 AM

You know, for the people of the minority in your corner on the 14 boards, this is exactly what they had to say as well. "Go away and leave us alone, masochist! Go find another game to play!" So, here I am. Maybe you're right. Just shut them all down because they all fail at providing an entertaining, engaging experience that's got substance and difficulty from start to finish. Join us, or die, is that it?

You didn't understand my point. Majority of people on the left side of the room like the color blue, and the majority of the people on the right side of the room like red. now in each of these groups there are minoritys of people who like the opposite color. Now rather than the blue people moving to the side of the room with the others who like blue, and the minority of red likers moving to the side of the room who likes red, everyone would rather start a color war. Now we have the red and blue sides throwing their ideas on why red is better or blue is better. They are different colors and different sides of the room, why not have everyone go to 1 side, everyone else go to the other, then we can like our colors in peace. You can paint your side red, Ill paint my side blue, we can be diverse, different, and happy, all at the same time.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 01:06 AM

You're a child because you refuse to listen to reason and value your opinion over other peoples' and somehow think that's appropriate behavior.

Again I say, demanding the product that I paid for years ago, and expected to have forever as long as I kept it is inappropriate and unreasonable? Do I need to re-quote the morphing car analogy, or is that too immature? I must be immature, because you've failed on all other fronts to convince me, that, outside of A. Look at the Like count! B. "Everyone" is happy!, this game is appealing in its current state.

There's a majority in everything. Just because there's one here doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine. And no, not even if I'm the only one.

Trisscar

08-04-2012, 01:07 AM

I'll second that recommendation for Aion. That game is grind-tastic. I spent a month playing it with some friends and could not for the life of me catch up to where they all were. No fast-track to level cap there.

Sounds tedious to me.

I've been playing EVE myself, it's beautiful. It automatically levels (skills) for you even when you're not actively logged in. The only thing is it takes long stretches of real life time to do so. Up to a month for some of the higher tier skills.

There are ways to cut down on training times, but it's not by much.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 01:08 AM

You didn't understand my point. Majority of people on the left side of the room like the color blue, and the majority of the people on the right side of the room like red. now in each of these groups there are minoritys of people who like the opposite color. Now rather than the blue people moving to the side of the room with the others who like blue, and the minority of red likers moving to the side of the room who likes red, everyone would rather start a color war. Now we have the red and blue sides throwing their ideas on why red is better or blue is better. They are different colors and different sides of the room, why not have everyone go to 1 side, everyone else go to the other, then we can like our colors in peace. You can paint your side red, Ill paint my side blue, we can be diverse, different, and happy, all at the same time.

There are only round rooms, and that which we're all stuck in. I like rooms with corners; Ones that have tradition and functionality.

cidbahamut

08-04-2012, 01:10 AM

Sounds tedious to me.

It was absolutely awful, but I think it would appeal to what Eyeballed is looking for in an MMORPG.

scaevola

08-04-2012, 01:13 AM

Eric

08-04-2012, 01:15 AM

Since you conveniently ignored my post, I'll ask the same question again.

Why won't you go quietly? Your bitching isn't not going to change anything. all you're doing is wasting your time and annoying people. The past few pages of this thread are clear evidence that a ton of people don't agree with you.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 01:17 AM

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 01:18 AM

Again I say, demanding the product that I paid for years ago, and expected to have forever as long as I kept it is inappropriate and unreasonable?This is a MMO so... YES! People bought Xboxs and had Xbox Live, they shut down the servers to Xbox live for the original and it is no more. Phantasy Star Online for the Xbox is no longer playable at all, or at least mine isn't, I paid for it years ago, but I never expected it to last forever. All MMOs and online services die in time because after awhile they are shutdown and lost. Expecting this to be here forever is very unrealistic, however this isn't shutdown or shutting down. It changed, many things change, this is one of them, they never took FFXI away from you, they changed it. One day however it will be gone, make no doubt about that, so prepare yourself for that day, because you seem to think FFXI will be around forever, but in fact, no online thing will truly be around forever. All good things must come to an end.
Do I need to re-quote the morphing car analogy, or is that too immature? I must be immature, because you've failed on all other fronts to convince me, that, outside of A. Look at the Like count! B. "Everyone" is happy!, this game is appealing in its current state.It is an unrealistic goal and statement to say everyone is happy, but I ask you, why have more people not spoken up in your defense? Are they afraid to voice their opinion? Do they have a reason not to speak up? Or is it you are in a minority of people wanting this, and the majority is truly against you? That is what matters, the Like button is a way to show you agree with something or like something, but so few have stood up in your defense where as so many have said they disagree with it. When you show me the majority isn't happy, or rather than the majority actually wants this, then let me know, I may start to choose your side instead, till then what you are saying is illogical, and holds little to no ground.
There's a majority in everything. Just because there's one here doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine. And no, not even if I'm the only one.I am sure SE would beg to differ, your single subscription means much less to them than the others who are disagreeing with you who would be none to happy were this to happen. That isn't to say your opinion doesn't matter, but it seems like how people are with HNMs, many voices speak out in protest, few voices speak out in acceptance and even applaud. You are the lone person right now so far as I see, and your fighting a battle both foolish, and hopeless, so far as I can tell.

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 01:22 AM

There are only round rooms, and that which we're all stuck in. I like rooms with corners; Ones that have tradition and functionality.

Again you understand nothing, I guess Ill be a little more harsh. Everyone who wants to grind for hours which would bore the fuck out of me and everyone else fighting with you it seems should pack up their shit and move to FFXIV, you seem more welcome there. You can give everyone there the memo to get their shit and get the fuck out, FFXI is their new home. We will gladly take them, and get rid of you, because you want to take a step back, and hurt the game and majority of players. We want it how it is, or at very least not how it was, the people over at the FFXIV forums apparently agree with your point of view, why not just put you where you fit in, and leave us where we like to be!

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 01:26 AM

Since when, ever (ever, ever, ever, ever!), has it been a good idea to take advice from the opposition?

Since you were intelligent enough to see its a losing battle and actually look at the facts your enemy presents. Most fights can be averted if people are simply smart enough to pay attention to what the other person is saying for 5 minutes then once they understand, alot of times it becomes clear, and possibly they can come to an agreement.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 01:36 AM

Again you understand nothing, I guess Ill be a little more harsh. Everyone who wants to grind for hours which would bore the fuck out of me and everyone else fighting with you it seems should pack up their shit and move to FFXIV, you seem more welcome there. You can give everyone there the memo to get their shit and get the fuck out, FFXI is their new home. We will gladly take them, and get rid of you, because you want to take a step back, and hurt the game and majority of players. We want it how it is, or at very least not how it was, the people over at the FFXIV forums apparently agree with your point of view, why not just put you where you fit in, and leave us where we like to be!

Okay, guess I'll stay on tone, then. Nobody's said it better than this:

Why? Because I love video games, that’s why, and over the last couple of years I’ve become increasingly upset with the direction that the industry is taking. These days, I find myself dreading that my favorite hobby will sink so far into douchebaggery and corporate bullshit that it will cease producing the kind of games that I like altogether.

Now, I’m not a complete moron. I know that the ’80s and ’90s weren’t some magical time where corporate greed and unscrupulous marketing didn’t exist, and we all lived in a utopia where everyone involved in video game development actually CARED about the consumer and the artistic merit of their medium…

…but it was better than this, goddamnit.

Soaring game budgets, DLC, “casual gaming”, cover systems, yearly installments, mergers, GameStop, Activision, motion controls, Tetsuya Nomura, “next-gen” graphics, Kotaku, “special editions”…

…it’s all just a swirling vortex of BULLSHIT being sucked down the drain, leaving behind all traces of artistry, originality, innocence and simplicity.

It’s not just nostalgia. I honestly have a more difficult time finding games I like these days, and that’s a problem I NEVER had until this console generation. I can’t open a gaming news site without being instantly depressed by some executive’s marketing jargon or some developer’s explanation for why his five hour, bloom-lit, brown-paletted game about a bald space marine is a fucking revolutionary masterpiece.

So now you get to hear about it, if you want. I know you probably don’t agree with me. If the things I say offend you, or you think I’m an idiot, you don’t have to read any more than you want to…

…but if you share my pain, and if you’ve had enough, feel free to take some time and join me in a hearty “FUCK YOU” to the rejects ruining our fun.

Thanks.

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 01:45 AM

Ok, like I said, heres your chance, go to FFXIV, tell everyone who disagrees with your idea of leveling, to get their shit and get over here, we will take them. Take the people who want your way with you, and go live on planet FFXIV. Then you will be able to tell your devs over there that you want your leveling methods, and we will keep what we have over here, I still see no problem with that, which your post brought up. In fact with the thing you quoted I mostly agree with on this part...
Soaring game budgets, DLC, “casual gaming”, cover systems, yearly installments, mergers, GameStop, Activision, motion controls, Tetsuya Nomura, “next-gen” graphics, Kotaku, “special editions"With few exceptions everything mentioned here basically pisses me off about games, but I saw very little in this post that opposed what I said. This in fact is very much with my views, I hate the idea of overpriced games, DLC being specifically cut from games, yearly installments into games like CoD or what Final Fantasy is turning into, GameStop, Activision, Motion Control, graphical upgrades which add no more fun, only looks while costing more money on both ends, and special editions to suck more money out of consumers.

The simple way to say it is 1 side wants 1 thing and 1 side wants the other, since we have 2 different games, why not have 1 set of people on 1, and 1 on the other, then we would be ok, or at least better off.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 01:47 AM

Ok, like I said, heres your chance, go to FFXIV, tell everyone who disagrees with your idea of leveling, to get their shit and get over here, we will take them. Take the people who want your way with you, and go live on planet FFXIV. Then you will be able to tell your devs over there that you want your leveling methods, and we will keep what we have over here, I still see no problem with that, which your post brought up. In fact with the thing you quoted I mostly agree with on this part...With few exceptions everything mentioned here basically pisses me off about games, but I saw very little in this post that opposed what I said. This in fact is very much with my views, I hate the idea of overpriced games, DLC being specifically cut from games, yearly installments into games like CoD or what Final Fantasy is turning into, GameStop, Activision, Motion Control, graphical upgrades which add no more fun, only looks while costing more money on both ends, and special editions to suck more money out of consumers.

The simple way to say it is 1 side wants 1 thing and 1 side wants the other, since we have 2 different games, why not have 1 set of people on 1, and 1 on the other, then we would be ok, or at least better off.

Here is something you obviously and apparently do not understand about the two games: They are ONE in the SAME in DESIGN. The SAME PROBLEMS that exist THERE exist HERE.

Trisscar

08-04-2012, 01:49 AM

Am I strange for liking DLC expansions?

Trisscar

08-04-2012, 01:51 AM

Here is something you obviously and apparently do not understand about the two games: They are ONE in the SAME in DESIGN. The SAME PROBLEMS that exist THERE exist HERE.

You mean arrogant gamers with puffed up egos like you who believe they're entitled to what ever they want over the concerns of the more casual gamer?

If so I couldn't agree more. We could do without you and the rest of you elitists and hardcores.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 01:57 AM

You mean arrogant gamers with puffed up egos like you who believe they're entitled to what ever they want over the concerns of the more casual gamer?

If so I couldn't agree more. We could do without you and the rest of you elitists and hardcores.

If you define hardcore as asking for challenging content, then I feel very sorry for the future generations who get by on "This is too hard, can you make it easier? No, this is too hard too, easier? Ugh, is there a 'just get me to the boss' setting?"

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 01:58 AM

Here is something you obviously and apparently do not understand about the two games: They are ONE in the SAME in DESIGN. The SAME PROBLEMS that exist THERE exist HERE.

Except, they arnt, otherwise FFXI would be DEAD by now, because the problems that made FFXIV get such bad press and made it known as a terrible failure of a game, a shame to Square, would have caused this game to die in no time. Its 10 years old and its still living, FFXIV lived for less than a year before they said they were doing a 2.0 version because they fucked it up. If they are the same, and have the same problems, tell me why 1 is alive and well, getting an expansion onto itself even though it is over 10 years of age, while the other is young, but being overhauled due to flaws? Wouldn't it make more sense to bury this game now if its so problematic and flawed?

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 02:00 AM

If you define hardcore as asking for challenging content, then I feel very sorry for the future generations who get by on "This is too hard, can you make it easier? No, this is too hard too, easier? Ugh, is there a 'just get me to the boss' setting?"

There was nothing hard about killing Pugils in Qufim, worms in Qufim, Crabs in Valk, Lizards in Valk, Bats & Beetles in Garbage Shitadel, Beetles in Altepa, Colibri in Aht, Crawlers in CN, Dhalmel in Bibiki, nothing hard about this, simply took time.

Arcon

08-04-2012, 02:01 AM

Again I say, demanding the product that I paid for years ago, and expected to have forever as long as I kept it is inappropriate and unreasonable?

You've got that wrong too. You didn't pay for a game. You paid for a license, which you got. Now you're paying for a subscription, but still not a game. You're paying to be able to play SE's game. A game which will always change, otherwise no updates, bug fixes and expansions would ever be possible. And that's where the subscription comes in: if the game changes in a way you can't agree with, you can cancel it. You didn't sign a contract to play for years, but you pay each month. If in one month an update happens which you can't live with, you're free to stop paying and playing.

Do I need to re-quote the morphing car analogy, or is that too immature

That analogy was flawed to begin with. First of all, you didn't have a nice car but a shitty car. Abyssea is the nice car. And secondly, SE never changed your car. The old game is still there. You can still get 5 other people and EXP the old way. So instead of morphing your char they gave you an additional shiny new speedy car. And you're getting upset that most of the players drive the shiny new speedy car, while you'd like it if everyone was stuck driving the old car with you.

Teraniku

08-04-2012, 02:01 AM

Am I strange for liking DLC expansions?

No because Expansion adds to the game, they usually come out around 6 months to a year after release and add a significant amount of gameplay.

The DLC I hate is, with holding characters that are already on the disc in fighting games (Capcom), Having DLC ready on release that should have been in the game to begin with (Bioware, Dragon Age II Exiled Prince dlc) etc.

Mirage

08-04-2012, 02:03 AM

You forgot the dhalmels!

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 02:05 AM

Except, they arnt, otherwise FFXI would be DEAD by now, because the problems that made FFXIV get such bad press and made it known as a terrible failure of a game, a shame to Square, would have caused this game to die in no time. Its 10 years old and its still living, FFXIV lived for less than a year before they said they were doing a 2.0 version because they fucked it up. If they are the same, and have the same problems, tell me why 1 is alive and well, getting an expansion onto itself even though it is over 10 years of age, while the other is young, but being overhauled due to flaws? Wouldn't it make more sense to bury this game now if its so problematic and flawed?

You realize that people are expecting XIV 2.0 to flop again because of its "speed-run" nature and tendencies? If that doesn't get corrected, then people like myself will have no SE to invest in. You've got your FF MMO, which was ours at one time, and now they're going to do the same again. One game: World of Warcraft. It works for you folks, but it certainly doesn't for others. Where do the so-called "hardcores" fit in anymore?

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 02:05 AM

No because Expansion adds to the game, they usually come out around 6 months to a year after release and add a significant amount of gameplay.

The DLC I hate is, with holding characters that are already on the disc in fighting games (Capcom), Having DLC ready on release that should have been in the game to begin with (Bioware, Dragon Age II Exiled Prince dlc) etc.

Don't forget Day1 DLCs like with ME3 with From Ashes.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 02:08 AM

There was nothing hard about killing Pugils in Qufim, worms in Qufim, Crabs in Valk, Lizards in Valk, Bats & Beetles in Garbage Shitadel, Beetles in Altepa, Colibri in Aht, Crawlers in CN, Dhalmel in Bibiki, nothing hard about this, simply took time.

But, you've got to admit it's a hell of a lot harder than standing in one spot as you AFK. ;)

Teraniku

08-04-2012, 02:09 AM

Don't forget Day1 DLCs like with ME3 with From Ashes. You got that for free if you bought a new copy of the game. I have no problem with them doing that, because it allows them to still get something from a used game somebody buys.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 02:09 AM

Since you were intelligent enough to see its a losing battle and actually look at the facts your enemy presents. Most fights can be averted if people are simply smart enough to pay attention to what the other person is saying for 5 minutes then once they understand, alot of times it becomes clear, and possibly they can come to an agreement.

And that agreement is, shut up and/or leave? Things don't get changed when people stand idly by. Watch and learn.

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 02:10 AM

You forgot the dhalmels!

Yeah I went back to it and added Crawler's & Dhalmels ^_^; added them just after posting it.

cidbahamut

08-04-2012, 02:12 AM

You realize that people are expecting XIV 2.0 to flop again because of its "speed-run" nature and tendencies??

2.0 is going to flop because 1.0 crashed and burned and anyone who's in the market for a new MMO has not forgotten the catastrophe that was FFXIV's launch.

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 02:17 AM

But, you've got to admit it's a hell of a lot harder than standing in one spot as you AFK. ;)

True, but at the same time not everyone afks, and you still have to earn money (most of the time) then give up that money to be allowed to do that, depends on how much INT your party leader has.
You got that for free if you bought a new copy of the game. I have no problem with them doing that, because it allows them to still get something from a used game somebody buys.Really? :( asshole at GameStop ripped me off I guess, mine didn't have it inside, thought it was only the special edition, not sure.
And that agreement is, shut up and/or leave? Things don't get changed when people stand idly by. Watch and learn.Eventually the time for trying to come to an agreement comes to an end, that time is when both sides fight back and forth non-stop such as now. When sides are open to compromise, thats when its a good idea to listen to your enemy. But you have seemingly made it clear that is not what you want, as was said by Arcon...
You can still get 5 other people and EXP the old way.The option is there, so if the choice is what you seek, then it is available, however if you seek to change the game itself entirely and change it for others as well, on a large scale, you have to admit, this is selfish on a few levels.

Trisscar

08-04-2012, 02:19 AM

If you define hardcore as asking for challenging content, then I feel very sorry for the future generations who get by on "This is too hard, can you make it easier? No, this is too hard too, easier? Ugh, is there a 'just get me to the boss' setting?"

Nice putting words into my mouth, ace. I like a challenge as much as anyone else, but 'challenge' is a far cry from tedious, boring, stress inducing gameplay like the old school way of leveling was.

Remember you aren't talking to someone who just started playing yesterday, you're talking to someone who's been active for nearly six years without quitting or taking extended breaks from the game despite how bad it sometimes got. I've been playing long before level sync came about, long before FoV or GoV, long before WotG and Campaigns, long before Aby.

I've been in some truly old school parties in the under croft of the tombs and Bibiki Bay. I've been in more experience points parties than I could ever count in pretty much every corner of FFxi including an imp party on Khimeria's island. I once knew every party camp by heart.

I've been in some truly epic parties that I will never forget. Once, I joined a party at level 23 on Qufim Island. It lasted nearly 12 hours and by the time we disbanded we were departing Yhoat Jungle. The same people that joined the group at the beginning were the same people that left, with very little down time and no PL.

This is, admittedly, an atypical party and more often then not parties were troublesome. Flagging up endlessly for an invite, only to get a party that usually disbands in less than an hour with little experience gained and it wasn't all that uncommon to leave with less experience than you entered with. Douchebag leaders, party members with no clue about the most basic of game mechanics, sub par healers, people with gimp gears, and on and on and on.

This is not a challenge, it's a torture session.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 02:21 AM

The option is there, so if the choice is what you seek, then it is available, however if you seek to change the game itself entirely and change it for others as well, on a large scale, you have to admit, this is selfish on a few levels.

I said this way back there, but I'll say it again. Do a /sea all XX-XX and send out tells for a classic party and see how many takers you get. Go ahead. Once you've done that, and awesomely failed, come back to me and tell me about options.

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 02:27 AM

I said this way back there, but I'll say it again. Do a /sea all XX-XX and send out tells for a classic party and see how many takers you get. Go ahead. Once you've done that, and awesomely failed, come back to me and tell me about options.

I never said it would be easy, but let me point out, doesn't that kind of show you how many people you would be hurting with this, or how many disagree with you?

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 02:29 AM

I never said it would be easy, but let me point out, doesn't that kind of show you how many people you would be hurting with this, or how many disagree with you?

It does one thing absolutely: Prove that we do not, in fact, have that option so readily as you all claim.

cidbahamut

08-04-2012, 02:33 AM

I said this way back there, but I'll say it again. Do a /sea all XX-XX and send out tells for a classic party and see how many takers you get. Go ahead. Once you've done that, and awesomely failed, come back to me and tell me about options.
The rate at which you're building those parties is roughly equivalent to the rate at which I was able to build parties back in 2009 before Abyssea was around.

You're just looking for a scapegoat.

Trisscar

08-04-2012, 02:35 AM

It does one thing absolutely: Prove that we do not, in fact, have that option so readily as you all claim.

The effort of building such parties was much worse before level sync and FoV/GoV. You're just making excuses, like all the people who don't have CoP completed now.

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 02:37 AM

It does one thing absolutely: Prove that we do not, in fact, have that option so readily as you all claim.

You have friends I would take it, you should ask them to come with you. You can Level Sync, just only fight mobs at your level and move up as you go, it should be the same as no Auto-Pages or abyssea.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 02:38 AM

The rate at which you're building those parties is roughly equivalent to the rate at which I was able to build parties back in 2009 before Abyssea was around.

You're just looking for a scapegoat.

Gotta be something else. I present you with a fact and the best you can do is blame me.

Twille

08-04-2012, 02:38 AM

I said this way back there, but I'll say it again. Do a /sea all XX-XX and send out tells for a classic party and see how many takers you get.

This alone should be proof enough for you that the "old" methods of exp are generally unwanted by the community as a whole.

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 02:39 AM

The effort of building such parties was much worse before level sync and FoV/GoV. You're just making excuses, like all the people who don't have CoP completed now.

I'm somewhat surprised no one ever tries to make a thread about how we should go back to having caps on CoP so that people have to work together and all that for it.

cidbahamut

08-04-2012, 02:40 AM

Gotta be something else. I present you with a fact and the best you can do is blame me.

I'm telling you that the time it takes to build a six man party has not changed since 2009.

Trisscar

08-04-2012, 02:42 AM

Gotta be something else. I present you with a fact and the best you can do is blame me.

Don't hate us because you provided us facts that only goes to illustrate how invalid your argument is.

cidbahamut

08-04-2012, 02:42 AM

I'm somewhat surprised no one ever tries to make a thread about how we should go back to having caps on CoP so that people have to work together and all that for it.

Those threads definitely happened. I don't know if there were ever any on this forum, but they definitely happened.

Trisscar

08-04-2012, 02:45 AM

I'm telling you that the time it takes to build a six man party has not changed since 2009.

I would argue that it is a lot simpler to build a six man party now. Shout for a book burn party in Jeuno for a specific level, go to target zone and party hardy. You'd be surprised how many people would jump at it, really.

Sarick

08-04-2012, 04:00 AM

I would argue that it is a lot simpler to build a six man party now. Shout for a book burn party in Jeuno for a specific level, go to target zone and party hardy. You'd be surprised how many people would jump at it, really.

She doesn't want a book burn, see below. >>>

I can make a solution. Get rid of Abyssea and auto-repeat book pages. Take it back to the way it was. Happy? And no, I won't stop. Sorry.

Komori

08-04-2012, 04:16 AM

detlef

08-04-2012, 04:26 AM

Err wait. Eyeballed, aren't you a level 61 RDM? If I were level 61, I too would think that XPing was the only content that matters. You should get to 99 and reevaluate.

Trisscar

08-04-2012, 04:32 AM

She doesn't want a book burn, see below. >>>

I saw that and personally I think she's nuts.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 04:47 AM

Nice putting words into my mouth, ace. I like a challenge as much as anyone else, but 'challenge' is a far cry from tedious, boring, stress inducing gameplay like the old school way of leveling was.

Remember you aren't talking to someone who just started playing yesterday, you're talking to someone who's been active for nearly six years without quitting or taking extended breaks from the game despite how bad it sometimes got. I've been playing long before level sync came about, long before FoV or GoV, long before WotG and Campaigns, long before Aby.

I've been in some truly old school parties in the under croft of the tombs and Bibiki Bay. I've been in more experience points parties than I could ever count in pretty much every corner of FFxi including an imp party on Khimeria's island. I once knew every party camp by heart.

I've been in some truly epic parties that I will never forget. Once, I joined a party at level 23 on Qufim Island. It lasted nearly 12 hours and by the time we disbanded we were departing Yhoat Jungle. The same people that joined the group at the beginning were the same people that left, with very little down time and no PL.

This is, admittedly, an atypical party and more often then not parties were troublesome. Flagging up endlessly for an invite, only to get a party that usually disbands in less than an hour with little experience gained and it wasn't all that uncommon to leave with less experience than you entered with. Douchebag leaders, party members with no clue about the most basic of game mechanics, sub par healers, people with gimp gears, and on and on and on.

This is not a challenge, it's a torture session.

So at least 3-4 years out of 6 you endured this torture? You see how this adds up? If this part of the game pained you so much, then what was the point? What were you trying to prove?

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 04:52 AM

She should know that sending /tells for party invites doesn't get you much feedback anyway.

90% of the parties I join are from shouts I see; not from people sending me tells etc. unless someone needs a rep.

It might not get you much feedback, but I recall leading 98% of the parties I ever joined and tells did just fine for me. I think what you really mean to say is that all previous courtesies and etiquette is gone, and now people just hang around Jeuno looking to blow that next 300k on their anti-attitude.

Trisscar

08-04-2012, 04:53 AM

What were you trying to prove?

Who says I have anything to prove? I'm just stuborn.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 04:54 AM

Who says I have anything to prove? I'm just stuborn.

So you were trying to prove you're stubborn. Yeah? >.>

Trisscar

08-04-2012, 04:55 AM

It might not get you much feedback, but I recall leading 98% of the parties I ever joined and tells did just fine for me. I think what you really mean to say is that all previous courtesies and etiquette is gone, and now people just hang around Jeuno looking to blow that next 300k on their anti-attitude.

Who needs to spend 300k? I've seen plenty of shouts for 6 man book burn parties.

Also courtesy and etiquette of the old days is a myth. People were quite rude and weren't above camp stealing, sending random invites or bothering people who weren't flagged.

Trisscar

08-04-2012, 04:56 AM

So you were trying to prove you're stubborn. Yeah? >.>

Not in the least. I have had and currently have nothing to prove to you or anyone else.

Sure I could have quit the game a long time ago. But then I'd be just like you.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 05:01 AM

Not in the least. I have had and currently have nothing to prove to you or anyone else.

Sure I could have quit the game a long time ago. But then I'd be just like you.

You mean sensible? Oh, no. Can't agree with that.

Trisscar

08-04-2012, 05:03 AM

You mean sensible?

What's sensible about acting like an arrogant, spoiled, over entitled child and demanding having things your way over the desires of others?

Now, you should understand that when Aby first came about I was one of the individuals that believed that Aby was an abomination and that the level entry should be level 70 at the least.

Now it doesn't bother me, the quality of the parties I've been in since has greatly improved since then and I like that way.

Teraniku

08-04-2012, 05:03 AM

Really? :( asshole at GameStop ripped me off I guess, mine didn't have it inside, thought it was only the special edition, not sure.

My bad, ?I thought everyone got it, I got the N7 Special Edition of ME3

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 05:07 AM

What's sensible about acting like an arrogant, spoiled, over entitled child and demanding having things your way over the desires of others?

What's sensible in playing a game for years that you say you don't like? What's sensible in assuming that I'm the only one with this perspective, and there isn't a whole lot more that just aren't on these forums?

Trisscar

08-04-2012, 05:15 AM

What's sensible in playing a game for years that you say you don't like?

Once you get past the antiquated level system you're advocating the game isn't that bad. So let me reiterate, the system you're advocating is a joke and I'm glad we're no longer shackled to it.

What's sensible in assuming that I'm the only one with this perspective, and there isn't a whole lot more that just aren't on these forums?

I've never made the assumption that you're the only one. There are plenty of people who desire parties outside of Aby. Unlike you they actually go out and get them and they have more flexibility than you. You won't find anyone who will agree not to book burn and if you're not syncing you might as well forget it.

Twille

08-04-2012, 05:19 AM

FrankReynolds

08-04-2012, 05:46 AM

What's sensible in playing a game for years that you say you don't like? What's sensible in assuming that I'm the only one with this perspective, and there isn't a whole lot more that just aren't on these forums?

That's why most people only had a few jobs leveled back then. People would do every quest / mission / endgame event under the sun, and still only have 2 jobs leveled. Because leveling was a shitty grind that one had to do in order to partake in the portions of the game they actually enjoyed.

And again: You can still waste as much time leveling as you want. If no one wants to party with you, then nobody wants to party with you.

detlef

08-04-2012, 05:52 AM

If you are level 61, your entire game is pretty much XP. So yeah, I can see how one might be very concerned over the death of the traditional XP PT.

But being at that low level, you really are just a frog in a well. Level to 99 and see the ocean.

Vivik

08-04-2012, 10:51 AM

Dear SE,

As a younger man I used to cut myself. I have enjoyed my life in the last little bit but I really miss causing myself pain. Please give me my razor back.

Thanks

Antanias

08-04-2012, 01:40 PM

Don't repeat the previous producer's mistakes, and we're golden :D

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 05:34 PM

@ Eyeballed

I find it interesting how you just bypassed all the comments which help conclude that you're 'old school' party idea was terrible and against the mentality of the general community, and how you continue to argue seemingly for no other purpose than to be argumentative.

Thank you for snowballing this thread into utter uselessness.

Create an "old school" linkshell, shout for members and leave the remainder of the FFXI player base in peace, please.

Oh, no, I fought for the old school camp every inch of the way. I find it interesting that about 3% of you have exercised reading comprehension skills, yourself not included. And, I agree that it's against the 'mentality of the general community' - those masses of you that Abyssea and the current game have attracted and kept in.

Just like I told the last guy, if you were smart about it you'd let it go so this thread doesn't stay near the top and the devs won't see this obvious threat to your community.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 05:35 PM

That's why most people only had a few jobs leveled back then. People would do every quest / mission / endgame event under the sun, and still only have 2 jobs leveled. Because leveling was a shitty grind that one had to do in order to partake in the portions of the game they actually enjoyed.

And again: You can still waste as much time leveling as you want. If no one wants to party with you, then nobody wants to party with you.

What's the problem with only having 2 jobs leveled? Is that a sin? Or do we have to have cap level across the board in a numerical value to feel important?

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 05:39 PM

Oh, no, I fought for the old school camp every inch of the way. I find it interesting that about 3% of you have exercised reading comprehension skills, yourself not included. And, I agree that it's against the 'mentality of the general community' - those masses of you that Abyssea and the current game have attracted and kept in.

Just like I told the last guy, if you were smart about it you'd let it go so this thread doesn't stay near the top and the devs won't see this obvious threat to your community.

I don't see how 1 is a threat against 10, were on equal ground in SEs eyes I'm sure, except your idea takes more work for them, and ours takes less, so I wonder if they look at this who they would choose... Seems a little obvious.

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 05:43 PM

What's the problem with only having 2 jobs leveled? Is that a sin? Or do we have to have cap level across the board in a numerical value to feel important?

If I only leveled 2 jobs I would have only a handful of events to participate in, leaving much of the game unavailable to me due to job selection. Also it would be less enjoyable for alot of people to only play 2~3 jobs and gear them, where as currently you are free to choose any job you wish to play. I can play my RDM freely because I have a DRK, COR, BLU, and BRD, to play as when required. If I didn't have those other jobs, I would be restricted highly, and that would make the game less enjoyable due to feeling left out, and missing out on part of the game.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 05:51 PM

If I only leveled 2 jobs I would have only a handful of events to participate in, leaving much of the game unavailable to me due to job selection. Also it would be less enjoyable for alot of people to only play 2~3 jobs and gear them, where as currently you are free to choose any job you wish to play. I can play my RDM freely because I have a DRK, COR, BLU, and BRD, to play as when required. If I didn't have those other jobs, I would be restricted highly, and that would make the game less enjoyable due to feeling left out, and missing out on part of the game.

And yet I fail to see where the previous system constrained this choice. Two jobs is a gross exaggeration.

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 05:53 PM

One guy talking sense beats a million guys that don't.

Your sense is that everyone should be forced to level the way they used to have to. This became flawed the moment you admitted that you couldn't find people on your server who were willing to do that with you. It showed that people do not agree with you as much as you may think, and even if they did, you could still level the way you choose.

You don't understand that all your doing is making yourself look like a selfish ass because you are wanting to force everyone to play your way. In the end of the day we are not forcing anyone to play our way, its an option, one that most people are more than happy to choose instead. You said you cant make a party, but truth is, parties used to always take a long time to make, if you couldn't make one you could try to solo, its not impossible, its still available. You have choices, but what you want is to take away choices from people, and make them do it your way, that is not the voice of someone making sense, rather it is of someone talking selfishly and out of spite.

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 06:01 PM

And yet I fail to see where the previous system constrained this choice. Two jobs is a gross exaggeration.
What's the problem with only having 2 jobs leveled? Is that a sin? Or do we have to have cap level across the board in a numerical value to feel important?Come again? I only responded as you said 2 jobs yourself. The point is that you can now experience all jobs where as before you were limited to however many jobs you could stand to go back through and level. I am sure I speak for many people when I say that going back to level 1 and going to alot of the same places again on each job, didn't sound exactly fun. Now you can take all jobs to 99 within a much smaller amount of time, so you can play as all jobs and have fun with them, but when playing like before, you would take months to get jobs to 75. If it took months for players to get to 75 now, you would see everyone with an average of 2~5 jobs at best I think, depending on choices that can leave you out of things still, and you will never experience those other jobs you have yet to play because you don't want to level them up through the painful grind that you already had to do.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 06:13 PM

Your sense is that everyone should be forced to level the way they used to have to. This became flawed the moment you admitted that you couldn't find people on your server who were willing to do that with you. It showed that people do not agree with you as much as you may think, and even if they did, you could still level the way you choose.

You don't understand that all your doing is making yourself look like a selfish ass because you are wanting to force everyone to play your way. In the end of the day we are not forcing anyone to play our way, its an option, one that most people are more than happy to choose instead. You said you cant make a party, but truth is, parties used to always take a long time to make, if you couldn't make one you could try to solo, its not impossible, its still available. You have choices, but what you want is to take away choices from people, and make them do it your way, that is not the voice of someone making sense, rather it is of someone talking selfishly and out of spite.

What I'm saying is that there was an actual playerbase, a fairly large number of people, that enjoyed this game the way it used to be. Those of you that remain are just a small percentage of that. It only makes sense that anyone that would support me is long gone.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 06:15 PM

Come again? I only responded as you said 2 jobs yourself. The point is that you can now experience all jobs where as before you were limited to however many jobs you could stand to go back through and level. I am sure I speak for many people when I say that going back to level 1 and going to alot of the same places again on each job, didn't sound exactly fun. Now you can take all jobs to 99 within a much smaller amount of time, so you can play as all jobs and have fun with them, but when playing like before, you would take months to get jobs to 75. If it took months for players to get to 75 now, you would see everyone with an average of 2~5 jobs at best I think, depending on choices that can leave you out of things still, and you will never experience those other jobs you have yet to play because you don't want to level them up through the painful grind that you already had to do.

Yeah, I was actually talking to the other guy on the 2 jobs bit. What I don't get is, how you guys must find it acceptable to bookburn up to what, 55? And then you surely have to go manually raise your skills, right? What's the point in that?

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 06:30 PM

What I'm saying is that there was an actual playerbase, a fairly large number of people, that enjoyed this game the way it used to be. Those of you that remain are just a small percentage of that. It only makes sense that anyone that would support me is long gone.Why change the game to fit those who are no longer here rather than form it for those who are? In my opinion it makes little sense to build a game for a group of players while no longer play said game, but at the same time harm players who currently play said game by forcing them into something they do not want. Its somewhat like if for some reason they all of a sudden said Halo 4 will have no controller access, it is Kinect now, and Kinect only. People all over the world who love Halo would rage, while people who like Kinect and casual gaming gimmicks would rejoice. The people who already play Halo and love it are basically losing their game to a bunch of people who don't play it or not nearly in the same numbers.
Yeah, I was actually talking to the other guy on the 2 jobs bit. What I don't get is, how you guys must find it acceptable to bookburn up to what, 55? And then you surely have to go manually raise your skills, right? What's the point in that?You get higher levels, you get access to all the features of a job, the job abilities, the traits, the pets, the functions of the jobs in general, it lets you learn the true use for the jobs and how to play it.

People will often fight with that, but as a RDM I can assure you, there was a time when RDM was a mage in a party, they healed, they hasted, and they kept MP up. Once you actually hit endgame it wasn't much the same, sure that was called for time to time, but most of the time I ever did any endgame with my RDM the main job I had was to use Chainspell and spam Stun, even today I do that for ADL, while few groups take me to endgame for other things.

That may seem a little off topic but trust me, its not. The point most people bring on why leveling the old way was good is because you learned your job, the problem was that leveling and endgame arnt the same thing. Leveling taught you to get xp as fast as you could, endgame meant claiming, surviving, and winning, much more than speed killing for faster xp gain. The reason to skill up later after leveling is because leveling itself was boring, skilling up isn't fun mind you but you can get 1 hand weapons to level 99 cap from 100~200 in a day or 2. You can do 2-hand weapons to 99 cap in 2~4 days depending on method. We have skill up foods and gear to make this even faster. The reason to level now skill later, is because in general, its funner, or at least for me. Leveling seems tedious and repetitive, and while killing worms in Lathein isn't the funnest thing in the world, it feels nicer than leveling out in Bibiki with Dhalmels for hours did.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 07:34 PM

Why change the game to fit those who are no longer here rather than form it for those who are? In my opinion it makes little sense to build a game for a group of players while no longer play said game, but at the same time harm players who currently play said game by forcing them into something they do not want. Its somewhat like if for some reason they all of a sudden said Halo 4 will have no controller access, it is Kinect now, and Kinect only. People all over the world who love Halo would rage, while people who like Kinect and casual gaming gimmicks would rejoice. The people who already play Halo and love it are basically losing their game to a bunch of people who don't play it or not nearly in the same numbers.You get higher levels, you get access to all the features of a job, the job abilities, the traits, the pets, the functions of the jobs in general, it lets you learn the true use for the jobs and how to play it.

People will often fight with that, but as a RDM I can assure you, there was a time when RDM was a mage in a party, they healed, they hasted, and they kept MP up. Once you actually hit endgame it wasn't much the same, sure that was called for time to time, but most of the time I ever did any endgame with my RDM the main job I had was to use Chainspell and spam Stun, even today I do that for ADL, while few groups take me to endgame for other things.

That may seem a little off topic but trust me, its not. The point most people bring on why leveling the old way was good is because you learned your job, the problem was that leveling and endgame arnt the same thing. Leveling taught you to get xp as fast as you could, endgame meant claiming, surviving, and winning, much more than speed killing for faster xp gain. The reason to skill up later after leveling is because leveling itself was boring, skilling up isn't fun mind you but you can get 1 hand weapons to level 99 cap from 100~200 in a day or 2. You can do 2-hand weapons to 99 cap in 2~4 days depending on method. We have skill up foods and gear to make this even faster. The reason to level now skill later, is because in general, its funner, or at least for me. Leveling seems tedious and repetitive, and while killing worms in Lathein isn't the funnest thing in the world, it feels nicer than leveling out in Bibiki with Dhalmels for hours did.

Regarding your first paragraph, why do that to the community that was already there in the first place? I don't understand how you justify that it's now OK that the former playerbase was screwed over with Abyssea/bookburns, but since then those fans of the former who have stuck around and are unhappy with the major changes are asking for it to reverted back to at least a semblance of its former self can basically get lost? (Sorry, a bit of a convoluted sentence).

I'm not here to argue whether or not grinding taught you anything. What I enjoyed was the grind itself. Call it what you want, but I know I wasn't the only one.

Arcon

08-04-2012, 07:54 PM

How is this still going? Two opinions can't be argued rationally. It's about what people prefer. It seems the majority prefers the new way. And even if that wasn't the case, the old way is still there for the people who enjoy it. Thus the current way is objectively better, although subjectively it's up to everyone's own preference. What more needs to be said?

TMG

08-04-2012, 08:32 PM

The problem I see with this whole argument here is that this current method of faster XP wasn't around before Abyssea. Nobody had a chance to say "No, I don't want to level that way!" because we hadn't tried it yet. As it turns out, it was a big hit for the majority. None of us knew XP was going to become this easy to get when they announced the level 99 cap. In fact, many of my friends quit before Abyssea came out because they WEREN'T looking forward to grinding on crabs and colibris again from 75-99. All of our previous level 75 jobs now had to be recapped off and lost their sense of achievement because there was more grinding to be done, or so we thought. Many of my friends who quit eventually came back after Abyssea was figured out and they realized it wouldn't take months to get those new levels. Sucks for the few of you who don't like to progress faster I suppose, but as it's been said, feel free to cancel your subscription and find a game that better fits your needs if you don't feel like you can enjoy this one in its current state. You don't continue to eat at a restaurant with shitty food in hopes that one day they'll hire better cooks, do you? No, you take your money elsewhere and get something that you know you can enjoy.

SE did what they had to do to keep the game alive and keep it friendly to new subscribers. People will inevitably quit for any number of reasons as time goes by, so if they aren't keeping new subscriptions, eventually the game dies. I tried getting friends into old XI, they never lasted more than two weeks tops because level grinding was boring and sucked, that was the number one complaint. Now it only takes a couple of days to get somebody caught up so they can actually PLAY the game with you.

There is so much content in this game to enjoy outside of leveling, if you want to take longer to get to it, the option is there. The same mobs and camps are still there where they always have been. I am sure you could go out and duo decent challenge mobs with a friend for roughly the same XP as you used to get in a party of 6 in the old days on very tough mobs. They've even added plenty of camps with higher level mobs outside of Abyssea to leave the option there for old school partying at the new higher level caps. The fact that nobody uses those camps to XP the way we used to should tell you something, it's not a very popular idea. SE didn't brainwash us into thinking Abyssea XP is the only XP, we just choose to use it because it's more efficient.

Yes, I miss the old days sometimes because that was all we had and you just accepted it as part of the game. That was all we knew of leveling and we dealt with it, there was no better option. Now there are options, and most of us prefer the faster one, because there's a hundred other things in the game to be doing once you reach a high enough level to participate efficiently. Sure, I enjoyed the 6 man parties of yesterday and getting 1-2 levels per party, but now I can get 10 levels in the time it used to take me to get 1, and I happen to think that's a better use of my time, as I'm sure most others do. I'm sorry that you feel like they've forced this new game on you, but the old game is still there. The players and their preferences have changed, and that's not something SE can just "fix". They're not just going to erase Abyssea and everything that came with it because they'll be left with a whole lot of pissed off customers cancelling their accounts. It's too late, the "damage" has been done, you just have to accept it the way it is now or go play something else because from a business standpoint, they cannot do what you want them to do just because it would please you.

Demon6324236

08-04-2012, 08:44 PM

Regarding your first paragraph, why do that to the community that was already there in the first place? I don't understand how you justify that it's now OK that the former playerbase was screwed over with Abyssea/bookburns, but since then those fans of the former who have stuck around and are unhappy with the major changes are asking for it to reverted back to at least a semblance of its former self can basically get lost? (Sorry, a bit of a convoluted sentence).

I'm not here to argue whether or not grinding taught you anything. What I enjoyed was the grind itself. Call it what you want, but I know I wasn't the only one.

SE themselves said Abyssea was a mistake (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17773-Newest-interview-(abyssea-was-a-mistake-)), I think the main reason for that is the same reason you are saying, because it changed the game so much and it changed the players as well. However might I remind you, two wrongs don't make a right. You know the feel of what you are asking SE to do to everyone else. You know how it feels on the other end, can you really wish that on the other players who currently play just to change it how you want?

jake3614

08-04-2012, 09:16 PM

Instead of complaining about Abyssea, let's discuss the women on MMO's that use men to get desired items/quests accomplished because they are chicks and Game Boys will always fall prey to this, unless they are gay and even still sometimes, then. Now THAT is a thread worth reading with names of the females per server to whom I'd like to avoid...
I shall start:
SERVER: Alexander >>> Shiva
NAME: If it has any reference to a Cat (Meow), Crystal (Crystalheart) or something similar... Or if named Shiianna.
I'd rather these people, not because they are females( I'm sincerely ALL about personal empowerment no matter the gender or sex), but the fact they use and abuse guys to do their own research or gameplay and can "boob" their way through events....... Both the guys and gals bother me and I'd rather THEM gone than any harm people think Abyssea has ever done.

Merton9999

08-04-2012, 09:27 PM

In fact, many of my friends quit before Abyssea came out because they WEREN'T looking forward to grinding on crabs and colibris again from 75-99. All of our previous level 75 jobs now had to be recapped off and lost their sense of achievement because there was more grinding to be done, or so we thought. Many of my friends who quit eventually came back after Abyssea was figured out and they realized it wouldn't take months to get those new levels.

This is an excellent point, and it fits many of the old friends I had in the game who came back for and after Abyssea. They quit because they did not want to level 24 levels the old way on multiple jobs. In fact, on forums and in game, when the level cap was announced I never once read or heard excitement about leveling again. I heard moaning about having to do it again.

@Eyeballed
Further discussing that the new way be forcibly removed for everyone poses the "flat earth" problem for me. Normally I'd hear someone out if their position differed from mine. But some stances are so off-the-wall collossally ridiculous that it's a waste of time to continue. It's like entertaining someone who's claiming the earth is flat. Or you might as well suggest everyone's car be taken away because you like the smell of horses and felt more accomplished taking longer to get to work. It's preposterous.

Some old friends immediately got into an Abyssea burn party when they came back after a break and were horrified that this wouldn't actually even be an engaging game anymore but just an AFK or button mash fest. Then after they reached 99 and started to participate in the new end game activities they saw the point. All of the teamwork, thought process and challenge that you may have gotten from old exp parties is still there, it was just moved to level 99 content. That content has cooler looking mobs, more variety in fight strategy and location, and more interesting battle design than any old leveling method ever did.

SE didn't actually take your old game away in concept. They just moved it to a different place and you're still looking in the same place for it. Now you can enjoy it fighting monsters that look like monsters instead of household pets. You can enjoy it while you not only get xp, but gil and gear at the same time instead of three separate processes. And in the switch to end game focus they made a way for you to quickly enjoy it on a variety of jobs instead of 1-5.

As far as skilling up manually, people find ways to make that enjoyable. For me, I did it while doing magian trials, which I had to do anyway from systems set up long ago. Instead of blasting through them as fast as I could I took the opportunity to multi-task and would pick the job for them where I needed skills, then pick harder mobs than the EP required for the trial. I got used to the macros for the new job, skilled up, got some xp and in many cases good drops.

Not everyone who likes AFK or fast xp is a lazy player. For me, I got bored of the game because it lost variety and interest pre-Abyssea. Getting a job to 99 fast avoids what became a very mundane and boring, unchallenging process, and lets me quickly get to the part of the game that actually does require thought and teamwork and has the variety I'm looking for.

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 10:51 PM

Plasticleg

08-04-2012, 10:55 PM

Eyeballed

08-04-2012, 11:06 PM

This is an excellent point, and it fits many of the old friends I had in the game who came back for and after Abyssea. They quit because they did not want to level 24 levels the old way on multiple jobs. In fact, on forums and in game, when the level cap was announced I never once read or heard excitement about leveling again. I heard moaning about having to do it again.

@Eyeballed
Further discussing that the new way be forcibly removed for everyone poses the "flat earth" problem for me. Normally I'd hear someone out if their position differed from mine. But some stances are so off-the-wall collossally ridiculous that it's a waste of time to continue. It's like entertaining someone who's claiming the earth is flat. Or you might as well suggest everyone's car be taken away because you like the smell of horses and felt more accomplished taking longer to get to work. It's preposterous.

Some old friends immediately got into an Abyssea burn party when they came back after a break and were horrified that this wouldn't actually even be an engaging game anymore but just an AFK or button mash fest. Then after they reached 99 and started to participate in the new end game activities they saw the point. All of the teamwork, thought process and challenge that you may have gotten from old exp parties is still there, it was just moved to level 99 content. That content has cooler looking mobs, more variety in fight strategy and location, and more interesting battle design than any old leveling method ever did.

SE didn't actually take your old game away in concept. They just moved it to a different place and you're still looking in the same place for it. Now you can enjoy it fighting monsters that look like monsters instead of household pets. You can enjoy it while you not only get xp, but gil and gear at the same time instead of three separate processes. And in the switch to end game focus they made a way for you to quickly enjoy it on a variety of jobs instead of 1-5.

As far as skilling up manually, people find ways to make that enjoyable. For me, I did it while doing magian trials, which I had to do anyway from systems set up long ago. Instead of blasting through them as fast as I could I took the opportunity to multi-task and would pick the job for them where I needed skills, then pick harder mobs than the EP required for the trial. I got used to the macros for the new job, skilled up, got some xp and in many cases good drops.

Not everyone who likes AFK or fast xp is a lazy player. For me, I got bored of the game because it lost variety and interest pre-Abyssea. Getting a job to 99 fast avoids what became a very mundane and boring, unchallenging process, and lets me quickly get to the part of the game that actually does require thought and teamwork and has the variety I'm looking for.

I find your horse/car analogy a bit flawed in that, why take a car when you could fly; why fly when you could take a rocket; why take a rocket when you could teleport? Where would it end? Start the game at cap so that it's NO LONGER AN RPG? Wake up!!