To: Mr Akihiko Matsui

[Eyeballed]

You realize that this thread is 50 pages long, right?

Do you ever stop and read what you type before you click the "post" button?

Yeah but I usually just find something to say 5 seconds after I post. If you'll look back, it's the reason for the edits. Like I said to scaevola, if people would contribute something we can go forward with instead of staying stalemate with flame after flame then this thread would have died a long time ago. But get ready, because it's coming again.

[Eric]

Except you're not contributing anything either, and you know it! You said it yourself, you're not willing to go out quietly.

50 pages of people proving you wrong and discrediting your crazy claims and arguments and you still won't give up. It's clear that you're just dragging this out as long as you can, regardless of whether or not you even mean the things you say anymore.

EDIT: What is there even left to argue about anymore? Tell me, how can you still think it's a good idea to return exp back to the slow grind it used to be after everything everyone has said?

[scaevola]

What would you like us to contribute? If you want an affirmative defense of the way things are now, my post #490 outlines my own reasons for preferring the current game (coupled with the unspoken assumption that leveling and playing new jobs based on personal needs is an inherent part of FFXI), and also we could say getting to level 99 faster makes everyone better at the game because it forces you to play in more demanding situations you can actually fail (as opposed to succeed less quickly) in order to progress further (this is why everybody makes fun of people in aurore and perle gear).

But before I defend these, I want to hear your assertions as to why we ought to go back.

[Eyeballed]

Except you're not contributing anything either, and you know it! You said it yourself, you're not willing to go out quietly.

50 pages of people proving you wrong and discrediting your crazy claims and arguments and you still won't give up. It's clear that you're just dragging this out as long as you can, regardless of whether or not you even mean the things you say anymore.

EDIT: What is there even left to argue about anymore? Tell me, how can you still think it's a good idea to return exp back to the slow grind it used to be after everything everyone has said?

In a nutshell, what they've said is to the effect of "We don't want it because it's mindless, boring and pointless." Those are opinions. I have mine, and because I think to the contrary, I think it's a good idea. My position is, as was stated, "If the grind process is as you say, and the consensus is that the trip from Lv1 to cap is a mere formality, an unnecessary cumbersome obstacle, then should it not simply be removed?" If your side cannot see the point, then what is the point of its existence?

[Eyeballed]

What would you like us to contribute? If you want an affirmative defense of the way things are now, my post #490 outlines my own reasons for preferring the current game (coupled with the unspoken assumption that leveling and playing new jobs based on personal needs is an inherent part of FFXI), and also we could say getting to level 99 faster makes everyone better at the game because it forces you to play in more demanding situations you can actually fail (as opposed to succeed less quickly) in order to progress further (this is why everybody makes fun of people in aurore and perle gear).

But before I defend these, I want to hear your assertions as to why we ought to go back.

Because, like I said, I found a game I enjoyed in the trip up. You and others may not, and you might even dismiss it as utter BS, but being a paying customer I have every right to voice my opinion on the subject without being labeled as an idiot, essentially.

I've done my best to give you that much respect, though I think differently to you, and I expect as much in return.

[scaevola]

So you're saying the thread has played out as follows:

you: hey guys here is my opinion

us: no your opinion is dumb and here is why

you: damn dude it's just my opinion stop trolling :(

Sounds about right! At the end of the day, it comes full circle: the way we want it, you are free to pursue the XP method you prefer. The way you want it, we are not.

As for the rhetorical question re: should the XP grind just be removed????? I am going to take the privilege of being the first to say PS2 Limitations


EDIT: We cannot have a discussion if literally your only response when directly asked for a thesis is "I like it and I don't need another reason."

[Tsukino_Kaji]

the way we want it, you are free to pursue the XP method you prefer. The way you want it, we are not.That's dumb and here's why. Everyone should be forced to aby burn after 30, because everything between 30 and 99 doesn't exist anymore.

[cidbahamut]

You have the right to your opinion. You do not have the right to have your opinion go unchallenged.

What you are doing now is trolling and flame-baiting.
Knock it off.

[Eyeballed]

So you're saying the thread has played out as follows:

you: hey guys here is my opinion

us: no your opinion is dumb and here is why

you: damn dude it's just my opinion stop trolling :(

Sounds about right! At the end of the day, it comes full circle: the way we want it, you are free to pursue the XP method you prefer. The way you want it, we are not.

As for the rhetorical question re: should the XP grind just be removed????? I am going to take the privilege of being the first to say PS2 Limitations

Sure you are. Remember SMN burns? Level sync at Qufim Island? What I fundamentally gather from your perspective is that you don't want to play the game as a whole, as it was designed. It's too much to ask for one reason or another; But, there are those of us who absolutely did want to play it as it was originally designed.

[scaevola]

That's dumb and here's why. Everyone should be forced to aby burn after 30, because everything between 30 and 99 doesn't exist anymore.

haha, if only!

[Trisscar]

In a nutshell, what they've said is to the effect of "We don't want it because it's mindless, boring and pointless." Those are opinions. I have mine, and because I think to the contrary, I think it's a good idea. My position is, as was stated, "If the grind process is as you say, and the consensus is that the trip from Lv1 to cap is a mere formality, an unnecessary cumbersome obstacle, then should it not simply be removed?" If your side cannot see the point, then what is the point of its existence?

Our way provides every player (this, of course, includes you) a multitude of options to get the experience points. This includes options to do it the old fashioned way. We even explained to you what those options are and how to best explore them.

Your way is to force everyone to play your way and would serve to limit people to a relative handful of jobs and would be detrimental to newer players.

We have explained all this to you and yet you still throw childish tantrums because you can't get your way. Please go grow the **** up.

[Modoru]

But... abyssea designed it this way. This is abyssea's original design. Who are you to go against that as well?

[scaevola]

What I fundamentally gather from your perspective is that you don't want to play the game as a whole, as it was designed.

Who are you to declare what constitutes the game as a whole?

Leveling only ever existed as an "important part" of the game because, as far as I can tell, it was a really good way to avoid the necessity of actually putting in endgame content.

Once again, we can't actually do anything other than insult you if your argument is "this is my opinion and I don't need another reason." Opinions are based on some observed criteria; your "argument" is the statement of someone too stupid to actually articulate the reasons for their own beliefs, and as long as you revel in this incuriosity you'll be treated like the simpleton you aren't giving us any leeway to consider you other than.

[Eyeballed]

Our way provides every player (this, of course, includes you) a multitude of options to get the experience points. This includes options to do it the old fashioned way. We even explained to you what those options are and how to best explore them.

Your way is to force everyone to play your way and would serve to limit people to a relative handful of jobs and would be detrimental to newer players.

We have explained all this to you and yet you still throw childish tantrums because you can't get your way. Please go grow the **** up.

And I've explained to you on more than one occasion that inviting people to a classic grind party returns laughs and giggles. For some reason you fail to read and understand this fact, and maintain that this is a viable choice. You're wrong and I'm here to tell you you're wrong.

Just a note before I block you though, I did another one of those useless searches for people with their flags up willing to go grind, and you know what I found? Two people with their flags up to join another 30 people at Gusgen. I suppose you're going to suggest that I walk into the middle of them and ask who wants to leave and go party with me?

Bye now.

[Luvbunny]

Sure you are. Remember SMN burns? Level sync at Qufim Island? What I fundamentally gather from your perspective is that you don't want to play the game as a whole, as it was designed. It's too much to ask for one reason or another; But, there are those of us who absolutely did want to play it as it was originally designed.

I don't get what are you so incensed about... FFXI now its all about options and how you want to play your game. EVERYONE pointed this to you. OPTIONS!!! The old school way exist, but it is CRAPPY, OUTDATED, RIDICULOUS, and just plain RETARDED, hence 99% of players just speed level to 99. You want to argue? All right, explain to your fellow members why you have to move camp every 60-90 mnts or so because you level way too fast. In case your brain does not comprehend, even the old school style has been revamped, you can easily get 1k exp per kill not including exp bonus from books. So on lvl 10-60s, you will level so fast - the camp cannot sustain it. Just imagine at lvl 15s in valkrum where you gain level every 5-8 mobs killed. There are a few camps that can sustain you longer, aka Boyahda Tree, Kuftal Tunnel, etc, but with GoV giving you 2700-3500k xp bonus, and your xp rings, you will level rather fast, perhaps a bit slower than your normal GoV burns party. Understand that the way xp is gaines CHANGED!! which in effect influence how old school party is done.

[scaevola]

Who are you to declare what constitutes the game as a whole?


I think I just realized something, actually.

If you leveled to 75 in 2006 and then quit for whatever reason, you probably actually think that leveling is and was always supposed to be a centerpiece of FFXI.


tedtheodoreloganwoah.jpg

[Eric]

And I've explained to you on more than one occasion that inviting people to a classic grind party returns laughs and giggles.
Because people aren't interested in that method of leveling anymore.

Just because you don't want to gain levels using the new tools available, you want to punish everyone and force them to play the way YOU want just because you feel like it? It's obvious that most people don't want old fashioned EXP parties. It's obvious that the game's design has changed to accommodate the player base's interests.

It's selfish to want to ruin the fun of a majority of the game's population just because you feel like it. It's obvious that this isn't the game for you anymore. The community has changed and we don't want what you want. Old fashioned parties are not the norm anymore, so go look somewhere else, because anyone with the slightest bit of sanity can see that the developers have absolutely no intention of returning EXP back to the way it used to be.

EDIT: No matter what arguments you make about old fashioned EXPing and how "right" you think you may be, it doesn't matter. Why? Because your opinions aren't going to make a difference. Abyssea has spoken for both the devs and the players, and we have both agreed that it was time to move the game's direction away from what your vision of what an exp party should look like. You don't have to take my word for it, because the evidence is everywhere.

[Eyeballed]

I don't get what are you so incensed about... FFXI now its all about options and how you want to play your game. EVERYONE pointed this to you. OPTIONS!!! The old school way exist, but it is CRAPPY, OUTDATED, RIDICULOUS, and just plain RETARDED, hence 99% of players just speed level to 99. You want to argue? All right, explain to your fellow members why you have to move camp every 60-90 mnts or so because you level way too fast. In case your brain does not comprehend, even the old school style has been revamped, you can easily get 1k exp per kill not including exp bonus from books. So on lvl 10-60s, you will level so fast - the camp cannot sustain it. Just imagine at lvl 15s in valkrum where you gain level every 5-8 mobs killed. There are a few camps that can sustain you longer, aka Boyahda Tree, Kuftal Tunnel, etc, but with GoV giving you 2700-3500k xp bonus, and your xp rings, you will level rather fast, perhaps a bit slower than your normal GoV burns party. Understand that the way xp is gaines CHANGED!! which in effect influence how old school party is done.

So what you're saying, and correct me if I'm misunderstanding, is that I actually don't have a choice to go out and 6-man IT++ because the EXP is so high (and TNL so low) that it would only result in us moving camps every few mobs. You don't have to get huffy about your response, either. Keep calm.

[Eyeballed]

Because people aren't interested in that method of leveling anymore.

Just because you don't want to gain levels using the new tools available, you want to punish everyone and force them to play the way YOU want just because you feel like it? It's obvious that most people don't want old fashioned EXP parties. It's obvious that the game's design has changed to accommodate the player base's interests.

It's selfish to want to ruin the fun of a majority of the game's population just because you feel like it. It's obvious that this isn't the game for you anymore. The community has changed and we don't want what you want. Old fashioned parties are not the norm anymore, so go look somewhere else, because anyone with the slightest bit of sanity can see that the developers have absolutely no intention of returning EXP back to the way it used to be.

EDIT: No matter what arguments you make about old fashioned EXPing and how "right" you think you may be, it doesn't matter.Why? Because your opinions aren't going to make a difference. Abyssea has spoken for both the devs and the players, and we have both agreed that it was time to move the game's direction away from what your vision of what an exp party should look like. You don't have to take my word for it, because the evidence is everywhere.

I don't think I've yet to make such an assertive, immovable stance as of yet. However, someone's opinion got things changed to the way they are now, so why not mine? I don't really expect them to revert this game completely back to its former state - but removing the auto-repeat pages is entirely possible.

[cidbahamut]

So what you're saying, and correct me if I'm misunderstanding, is that I actually don't have a choice to go out and 6-man IT++ because the EXP is so high (and TNL so low) that it would only result in us moving camps every few mobs. You don't have to get huffy about your response, either. Keep calm.

You have options. So do the people you invite. They are exercising their option of not joining you for a miserable gaming experience. The old options are still there. Your issue is with the players, not the system.

[Eric]

I don't think I've yet to make such an assertive, immovable stance as of yet. However, someone's opinion got things changed to the way they are now, so why not mine? I don't really expect them to revert this game completely back to its former state - but removing the auto-repeat pages is entirely possible.
Because your opinion represents a very small minority of what the player base wants.
The changes that have been made to EXPing are a result of the opinions that a majority of users held and not the opinion of one mithra.

[Eyeballed]

You have options. So do the people you invite. They are exercising their option of not joining you for a miserable gaming experience. The old options are still there. Your issue is with the players, not the system.

Sorry, this doesn't make much sense to me. The 'system' has increased EXP and lowered TNL to the point where it inhibits old-style camping to the point of near-prohibition, and this is our problem?

[Eric]

Sorry, this doesn't make much sense to me. The 'system' has increased EXP and lowered TNL to the point where it inhibits old-style camping to the point of near-prohibition, and this is our problem?
It's only a "problem" to stubborn people who refuse to let go of the past and acknowledge that the game has changed drastically and that old-style camping isn't going to make any sort of big comeback unless a huge proportion of FFXI players demand it.

As it stands, this isn't the case, and even if it were, getting simple requests fulfilled by the dev team is hard enough.

[Eyeballed]

Because your opinion represents a very small minority of what the player base wants.
The changes that have been made to EXPing are a result of the opinions that a majority of users held and not the opinion of one mithra.

At least you put it succinctly, unlike another who likes to throw around the words 'no one' and 'everyone'. I'll hand that to you - that the playerbase of this game does not want it. Yet, to say that nobody wants it, as in nobody on Earth, is quite a far-fetched notion to support a claim. I say people out there do want it, and it's an obvious given that the majority of those people are not going to be posting or Liking anything on this forum. Who's to say the majority or minority truly is, well, who's to say? Wait, we can ask Blizzard, yeah.

[scaevola]

However, someone's opinion got things changed to the way they are now, so why not mine?

Because you are unable to articulate what your opinion is actually based on, which is a prerequisite to consideration of its merits.

More than anything, I admit I'm a little frustrated to have to explain such a central Truism of Life to a man in his mid-30s.

[Eyeballed]

It's only a "problem" to stubborn people who refuse to let go of the past and acknowledge that the game has changed drastically and that old-style camping isn't going to make any sort of big comeback unless a huge proportion of FFXI players demand it.

As it stands, this isn't the case, and even if it were, getting simple requests fulfilled by the dev team is hard enough.

That's all good and fine, but I only ask that others stop passing this off as one of my "choices". It doesn't actually exist.

[Eyeballed]

Because you are unable to articulate what your opinion is actually based on, which is a prerequisite to consideration of its merits.

Because I enjoyed it. Simple as that, and it's been said repeatedly. If that explanation doesn't work for me, then it doesn't work for anyone else and their opinions, either.

EDIT: You can't go 2 posts without insulting me somehow, can you? Why should I even bother with anything you have to say? Why are you even bothering with anything I have to say?

[Eric]

That's all good and fine, but I only ask that others stop passing this off as one of my "choices". It doesn't actually exist.

It's really hard to form an old-fashioned EXP party, but if you are really as adamant as you seem about leveling up that way, you could probably find at least 2-3 people in Port Jeuno who feel the same way and wouldn't mind forming an EXP static party. Of course it'd be a compromise since finding an entire group of 6 might be asking for too much, depending on your server.

[Luvbunny]

Sorry, this doesn't make much sense to me. The 'system' has increased EXP and lowered TNL to the point where it inhibits old-style camping to the point of near-prohibition, and this is our problem?

LOL I am not being huffy, but you seems to not get the idea. Yes the developers choose to alter the xp system, and let you gain your levels way faster than it used to be. Which somewhat render lower lvls camp rather obsolete but in a good way since you get to move to new areas every 90-120 mnts or so, which also a bad way since every time you move, you can easily add 20-30 mnts of travelling time with people afk for break, gearing, buying new spells, etc... The only old school about the 6 person party is that everyone need to work as a group and you need jobs xyz. Most people do not like to do old school party anymore because it is job dependent, if your tank and healer left, you will have to rebuild and may end up with a disbanded party, unless you can find a static old school. As well as if your party members have no access to certain areas, it can frustrate others and resulting on members leaving.

The new FFXI is all about ENDGAME!!! Gear collections and weapon magian trials are the new grind system now. Frankly is for the better. I have no wish or desire to "level the right way" to 99 - if I want to know my job and how to play it, I just go solo those abyssea mobs and seal NMs. Either I know what the hell I am doing, or die trying, no safety nets, no helps, no assistance, DO or DIE and suck it up. So I better know how to utilize everything in my arsenals to survive. Most people just get to 99 and never bother to learn the jobs, which as many has mentioned, most of these complaints are mainly people problems not game system problem. The developers made FFXI more enjoyable, fun and accessible, they also create a more convenient way to travel, which is always a great thing.

[scaevola]

Because I enjoyed it. Simple as that, and it's been said repeatedly. If that explanation doesn't work for me, then it doesn't work for anyone else and their opinions, either.

It doesn't work like that.

In anything. Ever.

If it did, I am not at all exaggerating when I say we would still be burning people for witchcraft.

EDIT: I keep insulting you because honestly, really and truly, if you're seriously this open and self-aware about your lack of desire/inability to apply even the most basic critical thought to your own assumptions and beliefs, it's all you're really good for. This goes way beyond a video game, man.

[Luvbunny]

That's all good and fine, but I only ask that others stop passing this off as one of my "choices". It doesn't actually exist.

Oh cupcakes, it actually DOES EXIST, you should know this better, you really need only 3 people to kill Tough mob and can easily chain even match - tough, with xp bonus ring, you will get your standard xp party of 200-300 per kill. Have people sub dancer, get regen/refresh bonus, buy TONS of hi-potions (they are crazy cheap now), eat your food (yeah you need to do this), have up to date gears. After all if you really want old school, 200-300 xp should be rather sufficient for you - and finding 2 other people is easier than making your 6 party set up with jobs xyz.

3 people set up is actually a better way to experience the old school feeling since all 3 members need to be alert, know what they are doing and communicate with each other as well as need to come up with strategy and learn how to skillchain with each others. You don't have safety nets of 6 people, you must learn how to manage your tp, your mp, you also need to find mobs that are weak to the majority of your group weapons (piercing, slashing, blunt, etc...) It cannot get anymore old school than this. Plus you can think outside the box in terms of job set up, and subs, and end up with tons of creative ways: dark/whm, pup/dnc, a party of 3 drgs, etc...

[Eyeballed]

LOL I am not being huffy, but you seems to not get the idea. Yes the developers choose to alter the xp system, and let you gain your levels way faster than it used to be. Which somewhat render lower lvls camp rather obsolete but in a good way since you get to move to new areas every 90-120 mnts or so, which also a bad way since every time you move, you can easily add 20-30 mnts of travelling time with people afk for break, gearing, buying new spells, etc... The only old school about the 6 person party is that everyone need to work as a group and you need jobs xyz. Most people do not like to do old school party anymore because it is job dependent, if your tank and healer left, you will have to rebuild and may end up with a disbanded party, unless you can find a static old school. As well as if your party members have no access to certain areas, it can frustrate others and resulting on members leaving.

The new FFXI is all about ENDGAME!!! Gear collections and weapon magian trials are the new grind system now. Frankly is for the better. I have no wish or desire to "level the right way" to 99 - if I want to know my job and how to play it, I just go solo those abyssea mobs and seal NMs. Either I know what the hell I am doing, or die trying, no safety nets, no helps, no assistance, DO or DIE and suck it up. So I better know how to utilize everything in my arsenals to survive. Most people just get to 99 and never bother to learn the jobs, which as many has mentioned, most of these complaints are mainly people problems not game system problem. The developers made FFXI more enjoyable, fun and accessible, they also create a more convenient way to travel, which is always a great thing.

Moving camp every 1.5hrs. - 2hrs. wouldn't be a big deal to me. Depending on the zone and level, that used to be the norm. Simply because on the occasion your tank or healer left and you couldn't find a replacement doesn't qualify the whole of the party experience to be generally negative. Maybe if you have really bad luck with them, I guess.

I understand the new game is all about ENDGAME!!! Let's just remove everything before that because it's unnecessary? Start each and every new character at level cap?

[cidbahamut]

Sorry, this doesn't make much sense to me. The 'system' has increased EXP and lowered TNL to the point where it inhibits old-style camping to the point of near-prohibition, and this is our problem?

That totally makes sense to you. You're stubborn, not stupid. Pretty sure you're trolling though.

You have the option to create ye olde six man party.

The players you invite have the option to refuse you because they don't particularly care for ye olde six man parties.

[Twille]

So you think that because you can't manage to build a single 6-man party that SE should alter the entire leveling system for THOUSANDS of other people, to appease just you?

[Eyeballed]

Oh cupcakes, it actually DOES EXIST, you should know this better, you really need only 3 people to kill Tough mob and can easily chain even match - tough, with xp bonus ring, you will get your standard xp party of 200-300 per kill. Have people sub dancer, get regen/refresh bonus, buy TONS of hi-potions (they are crazy cheap now), eat your food (yeah you need to do this), have up to date gears. After all if you really want old school, 200-300 xp should be rather sufficient for you - and finding 2 other people is easier than making your 6 party set up with jobs xyz.

3 people set up is actually a better way to experience the old school feeling since all 3 members need to be alert, know what they are doing and communicate with each other as well as need to come up with strategy and learn how to skillchain with each others. You don't have safety nets of 6 people, you must learn how to manage your tp, your mp, you also need to find mobs that are weak to the majority of your group weapons (piercing, slashing, blunt, etc...) It cannot get anymore old school than this. Plus you can think outside the box in terms of job set up, and subs, and end up with tons of creative ways: dark/whm, pup/dnc, a party of 3 drgs, etc...

I'll put this as plainly as I can. 99% of the people I could otherwise get to join me on this venture are in Gusgen or CN; Anyone that's not has their flag up en route or waiting to join them. 99% of the people you say I could simply "get to go with me" are not interested. Any clearer?

[Trisscar]

And I've explained to you on more than one occasion that inviting people to a classic grind party returns laughs and giggles. For some reason you fail to read and understand this fact, and maintain that this is a viable choice. You're wrong and I'm here to tell you you're wrong.

Just a note before I block you though, I did another one of those useless searches for people with their flags up willing to go grind, and you know what I found? Two people with their flags up to join another 30 people at Gusgen. I suppose you're going to suggest that I walk into the middle of them and ask who wants to leave and go party with me?

Bye now.

I already told you a dozen times, people form such parties shouting for members and that there's no legitimate reason to need a six man group and quite a few really good reasons to keep it low man. You putting me on ignore isn't going to help you as I'm certain someone will quote me to show my argument and it does nothing to change reality.

[Eyeballed]

That totally makes sense to you. You're stubborn, not stupid. Pretty sure you're trolling though.

You have the option to create ye olde six man party.

The players you invite have the option to refuse you because they don't particularly care for ye olde six man parties.

And this because, in part at least, a faster and more effortless system has been laid out for them.

[cidbahamut]

And this because, in part at least, a faster and more effortless system has been laid out for them.

Yes...and?

[Eyeballed]

Yes...and?

But, didn't you just say it wasn't due to the 'system'?

[Twille]

And this because, in part at least, a faster and more effortless system has been laid out for them.

So your solution is what? Petition SE to change the leveling system against the wishes of the majority of the player base to take things back to the way YOU like?

[cidbahamut]

But, didn't you just say it wasn't due to the 'system'?

The system is not preventing you from building ye olde six man parties. The players on the other hand are. It is the players who are turning you down. The players don't want to participate in the grind. They have never wanted to participate in the grind. That is the source of your problem and it is something you cannot change.

[Trisscar]

So your solution is what? Petition SE to change the leveling system against the wishes of the majority of the player base to take things back to the way YOU like?

Yes, because they are a child.

[Eyeballed]

So your solution is what? Petition SE to change the leveling system against the wishes of the majority of the player base to take things back to the way YOU like?

More to the effect of removing the option to auto-repeat book pages. I think that's a fair and plausible proposition. If this can't or won't be done, then the question arises, (I've asked this over and over and I don't recall a direct response), what is the point of EXP and level-based progression? Should it just be removed? Can you answer?

[Eyeballed]

The system is not preventing you from building ye olde six man parties. The players on the other hand are. It is the players who are turning you down. The players don't want to participate in the grind. They have never wanted to participate in the grind. That is the source of your problem and it is something you cannot change.

Please see my last post and answer the questions, then, if you would.

[Twille]

More to the effect of removing the option to auto-repeat book pages. I think that's a fair and plausible proposition. If this can't or won't be done, then the question arises, (I've asked this over and over and I don't recall a direct response), what is the point of EXP and level-based progression? Should it just be removed? Can you answer?

We (the players [via this forum and other means]) requested auto-repeat book pages from SE as a means to eliminate the tedium of running back and forth to the book which served as nothing more than a waste of time. Eliminating auto-repeating books does not accomplish any goal other than to increase player frustration.
Years ago, FFXI was as much about gaining EXP as it was other aspects. That dynamic has changed. There is a plethora of activities and content available to a player at level 99, while there are much fewer things to do at the lower levels. As a result, the players strive to achieve level 99 as soon as possible, in order to enjoy these activities.
Should the level progression be removed, no. Should people be forced to undertake that progression under somebody else's limited ways, no.

[Eyeballed]

We (the players [via this forum and other means]) requested auto-repeat book pages from SE as a means to eliminate the tedium of running back and forth to the book which served as nothing more than a waste of time. Eliminating auto-repeating books does not accomplish any goal other than to increase player frustration.
Years ago, FFXI was as much about gaining EXP as it was other aspects. That dynamic has changed. There is a plethora of activities and content available to a player at level 99, while there are much fewer things to do at the lower levels. As a result, the players strive to achieve level 99 as soon as possible, in order to enjoy these activities.
Should the level progression be removed, no. Should people be forced to undertake that progression under somebody else's limited ways, no.

You could say they put the option to auto-repeat to avoid the tedium in going back for new pages, yeah. But you can also say that people want it kept just as much if not more because of how it can be abused. As I said before, such frustration didn't even exist before the books came along. You went to camp and did your thing without being tied to this object of your misery. You killed only what you wanted, and weren't 'restricted' to finding X-number of this mob and then X-number of that mob before you'd accomplished any real progression.

How does EXP and level-based progression even play a role in the game any more if the majority is only bothered with the Endgame? Why do you say it's still necessary?

[detlef]

I think the OP is laughing from her tower at the destruction and chaos she has wrought.

[Eyeballed]

I think the OP is laughing from her tower at the destruction and chaos she has wrought.

Unfortunately, for you guys, I have internet access at work and just started a 12hr. shift. Ho-hum.

[Twille]

You could say they put the option to auto-repeat to avoid the tedium in going back for new pages, yeah. But you can also say that people want it kept just as much if not more because of how it can be abused. As I said before, such frustration didn't even exist before the books came along. You went to camp and did your thing without being tied to this object of your misery. You killed only what you wanted, and weren't 'restricted' to finding X-number of this mob and then X-number of that mob before you'd accomplished any real progression.

How does EXP and level-based progression even play a role in the game any more if the majority is only bothered with the Endgame? Why do you say it's still necessary?

I agree with you that people want the books kept because of how easy it makes it to level/leech sub jobs, alternate accounts and what-not. But I don't agree that it should be taken away.
I dont exactly agree with your statement about the lack of frustration before the books, nor about being 'tied' to the book. Years back, during the 6-man party days, your options were actually quite limited, and thinking "outside the box" for exp wasn't always received well. Basically, you solo'd to 10, PTd in the dunes on lizards, crabs, flies & pugs, until you moved to Qufim and did worms, crabs & pugs, only to move to the jungles and fight mandies & gobs. The books are no different than past 6-man groups. You fought what was popular, or you struggled to build your own group to do something outside the norm.

EXP progression at this point is more of a formality, something that needs to be done because that's the way it's always been done. It's one of the building blocks that FFXI was built on, seeded sooo deeply that its nearly impossible to remove. There is still much to be learned thru leveling tho. You still learn things about your job, about how others play their various jobs, not to mention learning about the mentality of your fellow players, make friends, find linkshells to join, or maybe the opposite, figure out who's a douche bag and who you don't want to associate yourself with later in the game.

I don't mind the EXP system as it is now. I'm sorry that you dislike it so much.

[Eyeballed]

I agree with you that people want the books kept because of how easy it makes it to level/leech sub jobs, alternate accounts and what-not. But I don't agree that it should be taken away.
I dont exactly agree with your statement about the lack of frustration before the books, nor about being 'tied' to the book. Years back, during the 6-man party days, your options were actually quite limited, and thinking "outside the box" for exp wasn't always received well. Basically, you solo'd to 10, PTd in the dunes on lizards, crabs, flies & pugs, until you moved to Qufim and did worms, crabs & pugs, only to move to the jungles and fight mandies & gobs. The books are no different than past 6-man groups. You fought what was popular, or you struggled to build your own group to do something outside the norm.

EXP progression at this point is more of a formality, something that needs to be done because that's the way it's always been done. It's one of the building blocks that FFXI was built on, seeded sooo deeply that its nearly impossible to remove. There is still much to be learned thru leveling tho. You still learn things about your job, about how others play their various jobs, not to mention learning about the mentality of your fellow players, make friends, find linkshells to join, or maybe the opposite, figure out who's a douche bag and who you don't want to associate yourself with later in the game.

I don't mind the EXP system as it is now. I'm sorry that you dislike it so much.

I applaud you for at least having whatever it takes to provide an answer, as the others don't seem to have. Would it be OK with you in future games if there were no EXP or levels to grind at all? Why or why not?

[scaevola]

How does EXP and level-based progression even play a role in the game any more if the majority is only bothered with the Endgame? Why do you say it's still necessary?

It's not necessary, of course, and it's actually a pretty strong indictment of the leveling grind itself to look at it and say, no, there isn't really much of a reason for it to exist. Most games give you a gigantic breadcrumb quest curve that takes you through a series of narrative arcs that (hopefully) mask the grind. FFXI does not. It would be cool if it did, but I hope we can both agree that a finite development budget for a 10 year old game where nearly everyone is at the level cap ought to go towards making content for that level cap first.

So no, I would never say it's necessary but it's probably too much trouble to just up and get rid of, and I think Abyssea and book-burning are about as close as we're going to get to the devs saying they agree with me. =/


I applaud you for at least having whatever it takes to provide an answer, as the others don't seem to have. Would it be OK with you in future games if there were no EXP or levels to grind at all? Why or why not?

More directly, it's okay for most games to have an XP grind because that grind is hidden behind a narrative arc. In WoW, you're traveling across the world (of warcraft) killing 15 raptors for whatever guy wants you to kill 15 raptors at THIS quest hub. In LoTRO and SW:ToR (which do it much better), the whole game's pretty much built around huge narrative arcs that lead you to the level cap almost as an afterthought. ET CETERA

So if that kind of attention's given to it, yeah, I think it's fine for that to be accompanied by a tangible increase in power and flexibility for the player to enhance the sense of Progress. For a game like FFXI, it's probably pointless.

[scaevola]

Note that it was impossible for FFXI to have ever had leveling based on narrative arcs like other games, because that fundamentally involves getting XP for non-repeatable quests that move the narrative forward. If you balance XP to encourage people to do those quests, what happens when they go back and level another job on the same character?

[Eyeballed]

It's not necessary, of course, and it's actually a pretty strong indictment of the leveling grind itself to look at it and say, no, there isn't really much of a reason for it to exist. Most games give you a gigantic breadcrumb quest curve that takes you through a series of narrative arcs that (hopefully) mask the grind. FFXI does not. It would be cool if it did, but I hope we can both agree that a finite development budget for a 10 year old game where nearly everyone is at the level cap ought to go towards making content for that level cap first.

So no, I would never say it's necessary but it's probably too much trouble to just up and get rid of, and I think Abyssea and book-burning are about as close as we're going to get to the devs saying they agree with me. =/

And right you are. But tell me, what does that fact have to do with the price of tea in China regarding how slowly or quickly people reached that level cap? Is the answer really, "So I can play with my friends?"; Wasn't Level Sync enough to remedy this problem? Ah, but then again, the answer is more akin to, "So I can do endgame events with my friends."

[Eyeballed]

I would have absolutely zero issues with that, even though it's not the same as what people want. There is not just one extreme or the other. This is like me assuming you'd be fine with mobs giving a flat 1 EXP per kill, just because you want the EXP to be challenging. It's a gross exaggeration of what people really want.

I said nothing about wanting it to be challenging. I can make it challenging all by myself soloing IT mobs. I said I wanted to experience the game at all levels with 5 other people, preferably.

[Doombringer]

why not start at the level cap INDEED!

game always started at the level cap anyway. xping was just a barrier to entry.

i know a guy IRL that never got past level 50 in the old system, we started together but he hated waiting on parties, traveling to camps, the slow pace, the critical reliance on just a short list of diva jobs... so he stopped doing it.


since abyssea he's leveled 6 jobs to 99, completed af3 sets for at least 5 of them, gone back and filled out those sets with important gear from other places. be it AF, relic, AH gear. he's got 2 emps, and he even has a few dozen arch dynamis lord kills under his belt.

does that sound like a lazy player to you? or is there maybe just something wrong with the old xp system that kept normal players, or even potentially DEDICATED players, from enjoying the game?

[scaevola]

Ah, but then again, the answer is more akin to, "So I can do endgame events with my friends."

Well, yeah, inasmuch as one considers stuff you do at the level cap to be "endgame" and not "stuff you do at the level cap".* What's wrong with that?

Again, I really think a lot of this is that you still have a really narrow impression of what there is to do in this game at the level cap now, which is understandable given that you were not around for like any of it, but I think that once you see it for yourself you'll understand why people are in such a hurry to level new jobs and get them back in the action as quickly as possible.




*farming +1 empyrean seals in abyssea is a really, really broad definition of endgame

[Twille]

I applaud you for at least having whatever it takes to provide an answer, as the others don't seem to have. Would it be OK with you in future games if there were no EXP or levels to grind at all? Why or why not?

That's a tough question to answer.

I play games to have fun. EXP is low on the priority scale. Back when I first started, I played with 2 of my RL friends. We would pick up a random WHM and BLM and party 'til we fell asleep. We had a TON of fun together. Parties were a blast. Slowly, traveling to camps became more of a pain, finding members started taking longer, real life issues started getting in the way. Ultimately, at level 75, all the events were too large of time-sinks. There was too little reward for massive time spent, so we quit.

The game obviously changed significantly after that. Now, the grind to end-game is nearly non-existent. Before, I was pretty much stuck on PLD unless I wanted to dedicate another 6 months to another job. Now, I've been able to level, skill and gear WAR and THF with relative ease. Gaining Emp +1 gear and then +2 gear has felt very rewarding, without having to dedicate ridiculous amounts of time like back at the 75 cap that caused me to quit. Personally, I see the changes in regards to EXP as a good thing. They've made the game significantly more enjoyable for me.

So, back to the original topic, would I be OK with future games with no exp or levels to grind? The answer would be conditional. As long as the game would be enjoyable and entertaining, if there was at least some direction, point or goal to achieve, sure. I like to play games with story, something to get me invested, but also that is fun and rewarding.

I hope that answers your question.

(my shift is ending, so I may not be back to reply for some time)

[Eyeballed]

why not start at the level cap INDEED!

game always started at the level cap anyway. xping was just a barrier to entry.

i know a guy IRL that never got past level 50 in the old system, we started together but he hated waiting on parties, traveling to camps, the slow pace, the critical reliance on just a short list of diva jobs... so he stopped doing it.


since abyssea he's leveled 6 jobs to 99, completed af3 sets for at least 5 of them, gone back and filled out those sets with important gear from other places. be it AF, relic, AH gear. he's got 2 emps, and he even has a few dozen arch dynamis lord kills under his belt.

does that sound like a lazy player to you? or is there maybe just something wrong with the old xp system that kept normal players, or even potentially DEDICATED players, from enjoying the game?

Earlier FFXI was pretty strict on just about everything required to do just about anything in the game. I wouldn't call him lazy, but you definitely didn't accomplish as much as you would like to if you didn't have enough patience, know-how and willingness to take it up the initiative to make something happen.

[scaevola]

Earlier FFXI was pretty strict on just about everything required to do just about anything in the game. I wouldn't call him lazy, but you definitely didn't accomplish as much as you would like to if you didn't have enough patience, know-how and willingness to take it up the initiative to make something happen.

And this was a better system than what we have now because _________.


(also, I've made several posts pointing out a few ways actual "know-how" was much less important to getting XP than strict adherence to a flawed catechism)

[Eyeballed]

Well, yeah, inasmuch as one considers stuff you do at the level cap to be "endgame" and not "stuff you do at the level cap".* What's wrong with that?

Again, I really think a lot of this is that you still have a really narrow impression of what there is to do in this game at the level cap now, which is understandable given that you were not around for like any of it, but I think that once you see it for yourself you'll understand why people are in such a hurry to level new jobs and get them back in the action as quickly as possible.




*farming +1 empyrean seals in abyssea is a really, really broad definition of endgame

If endgame is your game, yeah I understand that. But endgame is not the only reason I would play an MMO.

[scaevola]

If endgame is your game, yeah I understand that. But endgame is not the only reason I would play an MMO.

Endgame isn't my game either, actually. As I've explained, variety is my game, and you only get that here at the level cap.

[Eyeballed]

And this was a better system than what we have now because _________.


(also, I've made several posts pointing out a few ways actual "know-how" was much less important to getting XP than strict adherence to a flawed catechism)

Because it included aspects of the game I enjoyed. Because it separated us into a class of player that was pro-active and was generally rewarded for their effort whereas those who couldn't or refused to just quit. Call it hardcore or whatever you want, but I'm really trying to stay away from unjustly classifying those who couldn't meet the standards set by the generally unforgiving nature of the game.

[Doombringer]

Earlier FFXI was pretty strict on just about everything required to do just about anything in the game. I wouldn't call him lazy, but you definitely didn't accomplish as much as you would like to if you didn't have enough patience, know-how and willingness to take it up the initiative to make something happen.

my whole point is that he clearly DOES have the willingness and so on. he not only succeeded at endgame, he excelled. he was killing arch dynamis lord when arch dynamis lord was the most difficult fight in the game, before embrava even.

he quit again because our ls fell apart, and voidwatch made him feel hopeless.

he's proof enough to me that people ARE willing to put in a REASONABLE amount of time and effort towards an attainable objective. people don't need it handed to them, but they're also not willing to bash their head against the wall over and over again for it.

and that's basically all the old xp system was, repeatedly bashing your head against the wall. if you could do it once, you COULD do it a million times... so why did we HAVE to do it a million times?

[scaevola]

Because it included aspects of the game I enjoyed.

Empty if you can't articulate reasons why you enjoyed it.


Because it separated us into a class of player that was pro-active and was generally rewarded for their effort whereas those who couldn't or refused to just quit.

That happens as much as ever; it just happens at 99 now.

I've soloed 7 Cirein-Croin Lanterns (need 50 for a particular stage of Masamune) since I started posting in this thread.


Call it hardcore or whatever you want, but I'm really trying to stay away from unjustly classifying those who couldn't meet the standards set by the generally unforgiving nature of the game.

Saying they aren't allowed to have fun isn't any better.

[Trisscar]

That Penta Thrust SAM wasn't pulling hate off of you because he was holding back. If he wasn't then he was doing something very, very wrong. If he was holding back it's because you weren't holding up your end of the bargain. He was probably riding Seigan instead of Hasso, slowing down attack rounds and lowering DPS and WS frequency. The accuracy that comes with Hasso may have made a difference too depending on level and camp. If the SAM isn't going as hard as he can that is slowing down the already painful process of leveling.

The math has been done, if you take the time you can look it up. Throwing shuriken on NIN is a loss in DPS, which means less hate, which means it's making it harder for you to tank.

EDIT Oh the fail is strong now. That's a 192 delay not 1.92. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that's 3+ seconds delay (plus animation? not 100% sure on that). In that time you are definitely getting in at least one attack round if not 2. According to that link they can be bought from an NPC for 7-10k gil, or made as a medium-high level crafting recipe (above the old soft cap of 60), and involve a HQ result from making Steel Ingots. If these were ever even made they went for a pretty penny. On top of the already (moderately) expensive cost of ninja tools (especially if you were using those as often as you claim) that's a lot of gil down the drain to make you do LESS damage overall.

Every time I quote to post today, for some reason I automatically get the above post... Anyone know what's that about?


I applaud you for at least having whatever it takes to provide an answer, as the others don't seem to have. Would it be OK with you in future games if there were no EXP or levels to grind at all? Why or why not?

We have provided answers, solutions and alternatives. You simply ignored us because you're childish.

[Eyeballed]

my whole point is that he clearly DOES have the willingness and so on. he not only succeeded at endgame, he excelled. he was killing arch dynamis lord when arch dynamis lord was the most difficult fight in the game, before embrava even.

he quit again because our ls fell apart, and voidwatch made him feel hopeless.

he's proof enough to me that people ARE willing to put in a REASONABLE amount of time and effort towards an attainable objective. people don't need it handed to them, but they're also not willing to bash their head against the wall over and over again for it.

and that's basically all the old xp system was, repeatedly bashing your head against the wall. if you could do it once, you COULD do it a million times... so why did we HAVE to do it a million times?

I guess your agreement we should start the game at cap says all I need to know. :)

[Eyeballed]

Empty if you can't articulate reasons why you enjoyed it.

I enjoyed it because I liked playing 19/20 of the jobs and watching them progress gradually, anticipating that next level and/or great spell or ability I'd been looking out for. And the whole point is the anticipation. It's about the journey for me and less about the reward. I liked it because the system was so unforgiving that you could immediately tell who wasn't doing their part and as well who was going above and beyond what's normally seen to make things good. There were bad groups with bad players that made the grind awful, and there were good players that welcomed the responsibility of their role and begged for more. Having the contrast between the two types made the grind all the more thrilling when things went beautifully because your focus began to transition from EXP/hour to "God this is so great, I don't want to leave! Killing these things over and over isn't so bad because 110% of my group is giving it 110%." You begin to appreciate the bond this feeling creates between NA/EU/JP players alike that the auto-translator can't define. You don't care if your tank is throwing shuriken or attacking with pom-poms, because something's obviously being done right. It's only a video game, but I'll be damned if it doesn't add a sense of self-worth to your personal repertoire of esteem-boosters. Something as trivial to you as a means to an end actually is my end. This feeling was my endgame.

[Trisscar]

I guess your agreement we should start the game at cap says all I need to know. :)

Why do you insist on making the same false dichotomy over and over again?

[scaevola]

I enjoyed it because I liked playing 19/20 of the jobs and watching them progress gradually, anticipating that next level and/or great spell or ability I'd been looking out for. And the whole point is the anticipation. It's about the journey for me and less about the reward. I liked it because the system was so unforgiving that you could immediately tell who wasn't doing their part and as well who was going above and beyond what's normally seen to make things good. There were bad groups with bad players that made the grind awful, and there were good players that welcomed the responsibility of their role and begged for more. Having the contrast between the two types made the grind all the more thrilling when things went beautifully because your focus began to transition from EXP/hour to "God this is so great, I don't want to leave! Killing these things over and over isn't so bad because 110% of my group is giving it 110%." You begin to appreciate the bond this feeling creates between NA/EU/JP players alike that the auto-translator can't define. You don't care if your tank is throwing shuriken or attacking with pom-poms, because something's obviously being done right. It's only a video game, but I'll be damned if it doesn't add a sense of self-worth to your personal repertoire of esteem-boosters. Something as trivial to you as a means to an end actually is my end. This feeling was my endgame.

What makes you believe you can literally only have these experiences during a rigid level grind?

What, do you think nobody ever makes small pick-up groups for anything? Have you been to Port Jeuno since you resubbed, like, ever? You could make a pretty strong case that the game is more focused around efficient six-man parties than it ever was; it's just reversed the location of those and huge alliances.

If I were so interested in steamrolling through content do you think I'd still be playing? My dramatically unimpressive FFXIAH profile is on display, man.

[Eyeballed]

What makes you believe you can literally only have these experiences during a rigid level grind?

What, do you think nobody ever makes small pick-up groups for anything? Have you been to Port Jeuno since you resubbed, like, ever?

If it isn't rigid, I don't want it. If it isn't strict and unforgiving, you can keep it.

And, PUG's for what, exactly?

[scaevola]

If it isn't rigid, I don't want it. If it isn't strict and unforgiving, you can keep it.

You kind of missed the point, here. You could remove the word "rigid" from my post and it would still be the same. If it absolutely must be a level grind and the level grind absolutely must be rigid, then you really should give Aion a shot, but on your way out the door I'd like to hear you explain why you thought such a weird and parochial opinion wouldn't be in the deep minority.


And, PUG's for what, exactly?

Uh, pretty much everything other than Legion and Neo-Nyzul.

Would you believe that Voidwatch is designed from the ground up specifically to be pug-friendly (if not, strictly speaking, easy)?

[Trisscar]

If it isn't rigid, I don't want it. If it isn't strict and unforgiving, you can keep it.

Go play Aion, then. I hear it's right up your ally (I personally wouldn't know because I've never played it).


And, PUG's for what, exactly?

For starters, leveling parties. There are some lucky people in here who have had static leveling parties but I am not one of them so all of my leveling parties have been PuGs.

[scaevola]

Also, as I have mentioned over and over again, the leveling game was ALWAYS forgiving once you got out there and starting hitting things, but getting there involved navigating a metagame pushed by borderline psychopaths.

[FrankReynolds]

I guess your agreement we should start the game at cap says all I need to know. :)

I'm going to reiterate some things that I've already said to you several times since you keep acting like they haven't been said / known from the get go.

For the thousandth time, the old leveling system is still there. Your not able to use it because people don't want to do it with you. this does not mean that there is a problem with the game. This simply means that you will have to try harder to find people to do it.

The developers saw that many people didn't want to do that any more, so they made new methods for leveling. They were considerate of the people who did not like the faster methods and left the old methods available. In this way, people who find leveling to be an enjoyable experience are free to do so.

As far as starting at level cap goes, there are all sorts of reasons for keeping leveling in the game. The least of which is the fact that people like you still enjoy it. There are a bunch of quests / missions involved with level cap increases etc. that would have to be remade / removed. Why bother when most people are content with how it is?

Yesterday while I was changing jobs for a VW run, I saw some guy shouting for a 65 party on colibri. Guess what.... he found people. I actually see people in small groups exping from time to time, so your right that people shouldn't say "No one wants to do that. I think it would be more accurate to say "No one wants to have to do that".

I think it was pretty nice of the devs to leave in the old leveling elements for people like you who are nostalgic about them. They could have just went "from now on all mobs give 1,000 experience points and all level caps are 5,000 exp. now Go find the zone with the best clustering of level 3 mobs that link and have 1 guy thundaga all the things!".

I still don't understand the desire to force people to play with you by removing what they like from the game though. I wish my friends liked FFXI, but I don't petition XBOX to remove all other games so that they have to play with me. In both scenarios, I imagine most people would choose to just not play with me regardless.

[Luvbunny]

I'll put this as plainly as I can. 99% of the people I could otherwise get to join me on this venture are in Gusgen or CN; Anyone that's not has their flag up en route or waiting to join them. 99% of the people you say I could simply "get to go with me" are not interested. Any clearer?

Oh dear, I really do pity you, seems like you are such a socially inept creature with zero friend in this game if you can't even get 1-2 person to join your adventure of doing old school style party. Here is a tip or two, learn how to use search function, got it? In most of the FoV area there are always a few loners who more than willing to duo trio with you since it means faster xp for them and faster kill to repeat the pages. Usually that works fine on lvl 10-50s. If you do indeed have a LS and actually able to form some sort of bonds, here is another tip - you see that black belt BCNM??? Yeah that one, that consume tons of your precious KS.... Why not try to appeal to other people by suggesting farming kindred crest party and take turn at lotting. Those lvl 60s-80s mob drop em, and the more people you have in your party the more chances it drops every 5 mnts. Between beastmen seals and KS, that should be appealing enough for 1-2 ppl at the minimum. You can also appeal to those on your LS who aby burn their warriors, since they need weapon skill ups, MANY kind of weapons. Lvl synch makes that much faster.

You see, start changing your way of thinking dear. NOBODY CARES what you want, but they sure DO CARES of what they want. Now use that analogy and try to appeal what other people want - that aligned with what you want. If you still have no clue how to interpret this, use brain cells. Many stuffs in the game people want, you just have to appeal to them instead of what you want, just make sure it is similar to what you want to create win win situation.

[Eyeballed]

Oh dear, I really do pity you, seems like you are such a socially inept creature with zero friend in this game if you can't even get 1-2 person to join your adventure of doing old school style party. Here is a tip or two, learn how to use search function, got it? In most of the FoV area there are always a few loners who more than willing to duo trio with you since it means faster xp for them and faster kill to repeat the pages. Usually that works fine on lvl 10-50s. If you do indeed have a LS and actually able to form some sort of bonds, here is another tip - you see that black belt BCNM??? Yeah that one, that consume tons of your precious KS.... Why not try to appeal to other people by suggesting farming kindred crest party and take turn at lotting. Those lvl 60s-80s mob drop em, and the more people you have in your party the more chances it drops every 5 mnts. Between beastmen seals and KS, that should be appealing enough for 1-2 ppl at the minimum. You can also appeal to those on your LS who aby burn their warriors, since they need weapon skill ups, MANY kind of weapons. Lvl synch makes that much faster.

You see, start changing your way of thinking dear. NOBODY CARES what you want, but they sure DO CARES of what they want. Now use that analogy and try to appeal what other people want - that aligned with what you want. If you still have no clue how to interpret this, use brain cells. Many stuffs in the game people want, you just have to appeal to them instead of what you want, just make sure it is similar to what you want to create win win situation.

Thanks for your suggestions. I'll try to employ them once I gain a few brain cells. Meantime I'll block you and talk to you at that time. Bye.

[Luvbunny]

In case Eyeball still has some reading comprehension, here is a bullet point list:

- Old school camp and old school style way of xp are never gone, its in the game, and it is better than before with FoV and GoV plus double xp and xp rings.
- Travelling style is amazingly more convenient now with Abyssea warp, Outpost warp, and VW warp. All those VW warp conveniently drop you to major dungeons and lvlng area of old school style party.
- Bazillion people love to level their mules or a bunch of their afk friends. Find them on Boyahda, join them, reap the nice xp per page bonus while you skill up and help pull or whatnot.
- There are tons of loner such as yourself who wander around in FoV areas, ask them to team up, make duo-trio party, use your xp rings, they will be glad to speed up the shitty grind.
- Try to make friends... end of story. Appeal to your friend sense, ask if they craft - duo trio mobs that drops items your friend needs to craft, so you can enjoy relaxed way to gain xp while they get materials to craft on site.
- Make skill ups party shout instead of old school party, no one gives a rat ass on that, but they do pay attention on how painful skilling up is - safety in numbers while you get faster xp rate on GoV books repeat.
- Appeal to their sense of need, suggest kindred crest or beastmen seal party.
- Find a buddy to do scroll farm party in deserted areas such as Sea Serpent Grotto.
- Grab a bunch of people who needs Alexander battle, hit Halvung or Mount Zhalyom for those trolls, the ore they drop is 30k each.
- Make a puk party, those puk eggs sell for pretty penny. Make ruzror party if you feel adventurous, their meat sells nicely as well.
- Look at those magian trials stuffs, be creative with your shout. TONS of people do these trials, they would rather grab 5 other people and kill stuffs fast. Level synch sometimes offer them faster easier way to do this. This is where you come.
- Get your way of thinking changed. What is xp party anyway? nothing but stupid grind, why not make it as "farming" party, it is a grind anyway, you have to farm anyhow. Never ask what other people can help you, cuz they don't care about you - always propose win win situation.

[Eyeballed]

I'm going to reiterate some things that I've already said to you several times since you keep acting like they haven't been said / known from the get go.

For the thousandth time, the old leveling system is still there. Your not able to use it because people don't want to do it with you. this does not mean that there is a problem with the game. This simply means that you will have to try harder to find people to do it.

The developers saw that many people didn't want to do that any more, so they made new methods for leveling. They were considerate of the people who did not like the faster methods and left the old methods available. In this way, people who find leveling to be an enjoyable experience are free to do so.

As far as starting at level cap goes, there are all sorts of reasons for keeping leveling in the game. The least of which is the fact that people like you still enjoy it. There are a bunch of quests / missions involved with level cap increases etc. that would have to be remade / removed. Why bother when most people are content with how it is?

Yesterday while I was changing jobs for a VW run, I saw some guy shouting for a 65 party on colibri. Guess what.... he found people. I actually see people in small groups exping from time to time, so your right that people shouldn't say "No one wants to do that. I think it would be more accurate to say "No one wants to have to do that".

I think it was pretty nice of the devs to leave in the old leveling elements for people like you who are nostalgic about them. They could have just went "from now on all mobs give 1,000 experience points and all level caps are 5,000 exp. now Go find the zone with the best clustering of level 3 mobs that link and have 1 guy thundaga all the things!".

I still don't understand the desire to force people to play with you by removing what they like from the game though. I wish my friends liked FFXI, but I don't petition XBOX to remove all other games so that they have to play with me. In both scenarios, I imagine most people would choose to just not play with me regardless.

Thank you for putting a little more into this post than usual. My biggest complaint has much more to do with the fact that all of this speed-grinding and its popularity might very well destroy the very thing I like about this type of game - which just happens to be my favorite genre. My biggest problem with that is, is I don't understand people who only want to play part of the game and the rest of us have had to sacrifice for it. Not that we've had to sacrifice everything, but our ability to enjoy ourselves as we once did has been crippled.

Of course the option is still there. Of course I can try as hard as I possibly can and shouting/yelling for as long as it takes to go out as a six-man party or whatever. Point is, I can no longer log in, do a /sea all XX-XX inv and know that every person with their flag up is looking for what I'm looking for. I now have to assume that people don't want that, and I should just go back to soloing and forget about it.

[FrankReynolds]

Thank you for putting a little more into this post than usual. My biggest complaint has much more to do with the fact that all of this speed-grinding and its popularity might very well destroy the very thing I like about this type of game - which just happens to be my favorite genre. My biggest problem with that is, is I don't understand people who only want to play part of the game and the rest of us have had to sacrifice for it. Not that we've had to sacrifice everything, but our ability to enjoy ourselves as we once did has been crippled.

Of course the option is still there. Of course I can try as hard as I possibly can and shouting/yelling for as long as it takes to go out as a six-man party or whatever. Point is, I can no longer log in, do a /sea all XX-XX inv and know that every person with their flag up is looking for what I'm looking for. I now have to assume that people don't want that, and I should just go back to soloing and forget about it.

What you need to understand, is that a lot of those people you were finding when you did /sea, were just as unhappy as you are now.

[Luvbunny]

Thanks for your suggestions. I'll try to employ them once I gain a few brain cells. Meantime I'll block you and talk to you at that time. Bye.

Yeah please do that - grow them fast, since you obviously do not get it, and keep on trolling even if other posters tried to be as nice as possible and explain it to you like you were a 4 years old. Game changed, people changed, if you don't like it, hit the cancel and delete button, easy as a pie.

[Eyeballed]

Hmm.... nevermind.

[Luvbunny]

Point is, I can no longer log in, do a /sea all XX-XX inv and know that every person with their flag up is looking for what I'm looking for. I now have to assume that people don't want that, and I should just go back to soloing and forget about it.

LOL - if I recall correctly in the old days you do exactly that and wait for hours for invite if you are not VIP jobs. This is why FoV was a huge success when it was created since people can solo while LFG and not waste their time sitting in Port Jeuno or Whitegate. XP party was a huge mess in the past and real inconvenience. Between travelling time, overcrowded camp, difficulty finding jobs xyz, it was just pure explosion of hot mess. As the game mature, you no longer have many new players, hence SE shift the grind to endgame now and give people options to speed level. Guess what muffin? 99% of the players took the bait and never look back.

[Eyeballed]

What you need to understand, is that a lot of those people you were finding when you did /sea, were just as unhappy as you are now.

Then I have to ask, why did they choose to stick around? And before you ask me the same, I'm struggling with sticking around myself.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Eyeballed, you need to stop thread camping and go play the game you're arguing about.

[Eyeballed]

Eyeballed, you need to stop thread camping and go play the game you're arguing about.

I'm at work. And yes, I'm doing my job as well.

[Luvbunny]

Then I have to ask, why did they choose to stick around? And before you ask me the same, I'm struggling with sticking around myself.

Eventually they will relent, since 100% of all the fun can be found at endgame and SE pretty much shift the grinding phase to endgame as well. Magian trials is your new xp party grind. Most people hate this and would rather get others to speed up the process. Empyrean seal farm and Empyrean weapons are also the new grind, you need all the normal tank, healer, dd, nuker set up. Just accept it that the level grind is pretty much gone, and jump in to the new lvl 99 grind and you will be fine. Stop fussing over dead horse, and get with the program.

[scaevola]

Then I have to ask, why did they choose to stick around? And before you ask me the same, I'm struggling with sticking around myself.

I won't say you shouldn't quit, but at least give the new max-level pre-endgame pug stuff a shot before you cash it in.* If that doesn't do it for you, seriously: Aion.




*I would warn you, though, that by playing RDM you're going to get a nice taste of all the old-school job favortism you're currently content to handwave~

[FrankReynolds]

Then I have to ask, why did they choose to stick around? And before you ask me the same, I'm struggling with sticking around myself.

Honestly, I played out of a desire to improve my character (and there wasn't a lot else going on at 4 in the morning). I felt very limited in what I could do on a low level character and it was infuriating that the amount of damage I did / took had very little to do with how I played. I really wanted to get to a high enough level that I could use real strategies beyond the one or two moves / spells I had at low levels and I wanted to fight something more interesting as well. It took me a really long time to finish my first job, because to be honest, it wasn't that fun leveling.

When I got to 75 and begun killing NMs so I could gear myself, and doing missions I was having some fun. Then I found out that I had to have X job leveled to get through X mission / bcnm / etc. and it was back to the grind for a little while, but I endured it because I had that carrot dangling that I really wanted. I leveled a few jobs, based on what events / missions I could get into with them. Not how fun they were to play. For example, I leveled red mage specifically because I could use it to solo NMs and get into events that dropped gear for thief.

I spent an enormous amount of time doing things that I did not enjoy so that I could get to do things that I liked.

In a nut shell, it started off as fun, turned into a focus for my OCD and now seems to dance back and forth between the two.

[Merton9999]

I spent an enormous amount of time doing things that I did not enjoy so that I could get to do things that I liked.

Me too. I liked experience parties for a while. But the blandness of the same household-pet mobs and repetitive procedures hit hard fast. I finished one job more for the sense of completing what I started than continuing with something I enjoyed.

But that wouldn't have been enough. I justified the continued experience party blandness because it wasn't bad enough to knock out the parts of the game I liked. For example, I loved story missions and I needed to level to finish them.

More potently, this game offered a unique opportunity to interact with friends, family and coworkers in a Final Fantasy world. It wasn't so much a great MMO I cared about. It was reliving old times when I used to play the single player FF games with these people in my home and dorm room as a kid. After we all moved away from each other, I was elated that we could actually still enjoy a Final Fantasy world together via FFXI, hundreds of miles apart. The Final Fantasy part is important in terms of the nostalgiac mythos and imagery.

When the stories were done and my friends and family quit for other things, I no longer had a reason to endure the experience parties. I quit for several periods of several months, re-subing when new expansion stories were added, and when friends decided to give it a go again. Abyssea was the first time I actually enjoyed 100% of what I was playing. Now I'm in the same boat as Frank. There are a couple OCD things I just want to finish because I started them, and a few times when I hang with RL friends and family in game and just fool around.

There is one aspect of the old leveling grind I miss now that I think about it. In VW or Abyssea the progression is gear centered, and what that does for your character is only about numbers. There is some satisfaction about that. But it's not as enjoyable as progressing in abilities and job role. For example, building up on RDM, getting Convert, Refresh and Haste are a big deal when you've leveled so long without them. This kind of progression was better to me than just gear potency, on a single job.

But, here's the good part. Like everything else there is a replacement for that. Although current leveling shoots you through ability and thought-process progression on one job, it gives you the opportunity to grow your overall character across multiple jobs. So now instead of getting convert 40 levels in, I look forward to getting to 99, playing a while with all the skills one job has, then moving to the next stage for my character by moving on to another job. That has actually proved much more enjoyable to me.

I'd highly suggest trying that before you quit, Eyeballed. Gear, seal and +2 hunting with a couple friends at 99 can be a blast. With Abyssea and VW gear hunts, you can get some repetitive fights with tougher and cooler looking mobs in a party setting where everyone has to participate. Of course there are differences from old xp parties but much of what I liked about those at first is present in these fights, which to me are more fun and better designed. You can get your sense of old partying, just in the gear hunt across multiple jobs vs experience points with one job.

[Eyeballed]

Honestly Merton, I came back to FFXI with the explicit purpose to relive some old memories and then leave again. I have no real intention of devoting any serious time to the game. I already knew when I left FFXIV what state the game was in, and as such had planned to solo everything. This, at least until 14 is overhauled and 2.0 launches, then I'll dabble in that again and see if it's worth my time. Doubting it.

I looked at Aion, and it looks pretty drab. Maybe I'll just /shutdown and go outside again, lol.

[Luvbunny]

I'd highly suggest trying that before you quit, Eyeballed. Gear, seal and +2 hunting with a couple friends at 99 can be a blast. With Abyssea and VW gear hunts, you can get some repetitive fights with tougher and cooler looking mobs in a party setting where everyone has to participate. Of course there are differences from old xp parties but much of what I liked about those at first is present in these fights, which to me are more fun and better designed. You can get your sense of old partying, just in the gear hunt across multiple jobs vs experience points with one job.

You made some very good point that everyone here tried to suggest to Miss Donuts over there, but seems like that idea never cross her donut shaped hole inside her head. Maybe she should try to cut some sugar, and bake another cookie?

[Arcon]

I said nothing about wanting it to be challenging. I can make it challenging all by myself soloing IT mobs. I said I wanted to experience the game at all levels with 5 other people, preferably.

That just sounds insanely arbitrary. First of all, why five other people? Why not solo, why not in an alliance? Secondly, how is an EXP party "experiencing" the game? You don't see shit of the game in an EXP party. 30 capped Promyvions is experiencing the game. 40 capped Mammets fight is experiencing the game. 60 capped Airship fight is experiencing the game. Leveling is not, not at any level. If you think killing crabs over and over somehow means experiencing the game you have no idea what the game has to offer at all, even during mid-levels. Leveling does even less for your game experience than it does for your gameplay experience, which is already pretty much nothing.

Also, am I being retarded or did my post (the one you quoted) get deleted? I can't seem to find it anymore.

[FrankReynolds]

That just sounds insanely arbitrary. First of all, why five other people? Why not solo, why not in an alliance? Secondly, how is an EXP party "experiencing" the game? You don't see shit of the game in an EXP party. 30 capped Promyvions is experiencing the game. 40 capped Mammets fight is experiencing the game. 60 capped Airship fight is experiencing the game. Leveling is not, not at any level. If you think killing crabs over and over somehow means experiencing the game you have no idea what the game has to offer at all, even during mid-levels. Leveling does even less for your game experience than it does for your gameplay experience, which is already pretty much nothing.

Also, am I being retarded or did my post (the one you quoted) get deleted? I can't seem to find it anymore.

A few of mine came up missing recently. I suspect ninja forum modding.

[Arcon]

A few of mine came up missing recently. I suspect ninja forum modding.

At first I suspected that, but look at it (it's still in his quote), there's nothing that seems even remotely insulting in there. Can't really see why it would have been deleted.

[FrankReynolds]

At first I suspected that, but look at it (it's still in his quote), there's nothing that seems even remotely insulting in there. Can't really see why it would have been deleted.

I got a 12 hour ban from this forum for saying "I'm not sure what your trying to say, but I think it was meant to be an insult. It actually just came out as sounding silly though."

... you never know what the reasoning may be on here. I'd prefer they just delete to doing a temp ban for something lame though.

[Eyeballed]

That just sounds insanely arbitrary. First of all, why five other people? Why not solo, why not in an alliance? Secondly, how is an EXP party "experiencing" the game? You don't see shit of the game in an EXP party. 30 capped Promyvions is experiencing the game. 40 capped Mammets fight is experiencing the game. 60 capped Airship fight is experiencing the game. Leveling is not, not at any level. If you think killing crabs over and over somehow means experiencing the game you have no idea what the game has to offer at all, even during mid-levels. Leveling does even less for your game experience than it does for your gameplay experience, which is already pretty much nothing.

Also, am I being retarded or did my post (the one you quoted) get deleted? I can't seem to find it anymore.

So Arcon, would you say that we should simply start the game at cap? Being that myself, and an untold number of others, apparently don't know what we're talking about? Or, is that simply you 6-7 (or even 50, considering the Likes on page 1), and the lot in this particular thread just don't seem to understand, at all? You say there's nothing to be found in killing a crab over and over with 5 other people, and I disagree, for one. I say there's nothing to be found burning up your levels (AFK or no) in Gusgen/CN for the first 60 levels in the game.

[Arcon]

So Arcon, would you say that we should simply start the game at cap?

I already said I would not mind that one bit. I don't care for EXPing at all. If I'd start the game at 99 I'd still play it. Get this: I already have all my jobs leveled. I don't need any EXP, ever again. Yet I'm still playing. Is that not enough to convince you that I don't care for EXPing?

But no, that's not what I'm suggesting. I say leave it as it is. That way the people who want to leech can do that, the people who don't, don't have to. Only the masochists like you are being left out because they can't find five like-minded masochists to party with. Instead you think it would be an appropriate solution to make the entire rest of the community suffer just so you can indulge in your masochistic desires.


Being that myself, and an untold number of others, apparently don't know what we're talking about? Or, is that simply you 6-7 (or even 50, considering the Likes on page 1), and the lot in this particular thread just don't seem to understand, at all?

We do understand what you want. We also understand your arguments. But you don't seem to understand that they're all subjective. We don't want a game like that. I play to play, not to work. EXPing has always felt like work to me. Something repetitive, tiresome and boring. You may spin it whichever way you want ("being able to play the job is a reward for the tedious leveling" has a nice ring to it), but it's still not convincing to me, and I'm guessing to at least some other people as well.


You say there's nothing to be found in killing a crab over and over with 5 other people, and I disagree, for one. I say there's nothing to be found burning up your levels (AFK or no) in Gusgen/CN for the first 60 levels in the game.

I don't disagree. I'm not saying leeching is a vital life experience or that you learn some valuable lessons while doing so. But neither is regular EXPing.

[Eyeballed]

I already said I would not mind that one bit. I'm not saying leeching is a vital life experience or that you learn some valuable lessons while doing so. But neither is regular EXPing.

This is really all you had to say.

[Demon6324236]

This is really all you had to say.

Actually he had alot more than that to say, and said it, you just didn't quote it.

[Eyeballed]

Actually he had alot more than that to say, and said it, you just didn't quote it.

Because it was inflammatory, and that in itself is unnecessary. Learn to talk with respect, and I might actually acknowledge you even said anything.

And at the most, it was all he needed to say for me to understand his side. Is there any point to talking further?

[Eyeballed]

Demon6324236, can I ask what your signature, "Words so true in a world now ruled by luck! If only SE could see all our sad faces when we roll our die each day and it never lands on the number that rewards us.", means?

[Mirage]

It means that he doesn't like random number generator-based reward systems

[Arcon]

Because it was inflammatory, and that in itself is unnecessary. Learn to talk with respect, and I might actually acknowledge you even said anything.

What was inflammatory about it? Calling you a masochist?

You actually summed up my opinion on the matter quite nicely with your selection of my post. You only blocked out my views on you and your opinion. I guess that was uncomfortable for you, but I'm not sure what else you expected. You knew almost everyone here disagrees with you (you certainly knew I did), and you actually asked me about my opinion. I merely answered your questions. This is how I see it. I see it as a form of masochism. And I do not in any way have anything against it. I already told you before I have several people who play the game the "hard way" and if it makes them happy, good for them. I just don't want them to enforce it on myself, just like I don't enforce my playstyle on them.

[FrankReynolds]

Because it was inflammatory, and that in itself is unnecessary. Learn to talk with respect, and I might actually acknowledge you even said anything.

And at the most, it was all he needed to say for me to understand his side. Is there any point to talking further?

I don't think anything he said was intended to be inflammatory. Calling you a masochist is quite appropriate given the nature of your views on this game.

mas·och·ism (ms-kzm)
n.
1. <censored>
2. The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from being humiliated or mistreated, either by another or by oneself.
3. A willingness or tendency to subject oneself to unpleasant or trying experiences.

All of us in this thread are guilty of the same thing in that it's pretty obvious that our efforts to sway you will be both time consuming and fruitless, and yet we continue to enjoy this debate. Wear that masochist badge with honor. ;)

I'm willing to bet that a parse of the Port Jeuno chat logs would reveal that you do not shout for the groups that you have been pushing for on this thread.

Furthermore, If the devs began work on implementing your requested changes, they would probably not finish before you left the game to go back to FFXIV. You're also ignoring the fact that SE are evil genies, and would likely do something totally unexpected and unwanted that you would hate even more than the current system, while in the process of making your requested changes . You're basically pushing for a largely unwanted / unnecessary / potentially terribad change that you won't even be around to benefit / suffer from, so this is really all just a great exercise for me to hone my more or less awful typing skills. *looks down at keyboard to see what keys my fingers are on*

[Demon6324236]

Demon6324236, can I ask what your signature, "Words so true in a world now ruled by luck! If only SE could see all our sad faces when we roll our die each day and it never lands on the number that rewards us.", means?

If you look at most of the end game content released after Abyssea, its very random. With Arch-Dynamis Lord its a matter of luck on picking the right clone after he splits, with VW its luck on drops, with Nyzul Isle you rely purely on how far you go with each jump. As the quote says, Abyssea had the most proper reward system, because Reward truly was effected by effort, you could try to do something, and something would get done. However since most endgame has become very luck based, sure skill is involved, and more skill in alot of cases means less luck, but no matter what you do alot of endgame is highly effected by a random number the game comes up with and throws your way.

[Demon6324236]

Because it was inflammatory, and that in itself is unnecessary. Learn to talk with respect, and I might actually acknowledge you even said anything.

And at the most, it was all he needed to say for me to understand his side. Is there any point to talking further?


So Arcon, would you say that we should simply start the game at cap?
I already said I would not mind that one bit. I don't care for EXPing at all. If I'd start the game at 99 I'd still play it. Get this: I already have all my jobs leveled. I don't need any EXP, ever again. Yet I'm still playing. Is that not enough to convince you that I don't care for EXPing?

He also answered your question as well.

[Trisscar]

Learn to talk with respect, and I might actually acknowledge you even said anything.



Like you're one to talk! You haven't shown one iota of respect to anyone who doesn't agree with you, and you show unprecedented amounts of disrespect and arrogance towards us all! What a hypocrite!

[Eyeballed]

I don't think anything he said was intended to be inflammatory. Calling you a masochist is quite appropriate given the nature of your views on this game.

mas·och·ism (ms-kzm)
n.
1. <censored>
2. The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from being humiliated or mistreated, either by another or by oneself.
3. A willingness or tendency to subject oneself to unpleasant or trying experiences.

All of us in this thread are guilty of the same thing in that it's pretty obvious that our efforts to sway you will be both time consuming and fruitless, and yet we continue to enjoy this debate. Wear that masochist badge with honor.

I assure that I am not, in fact, what you claim I am. The mere fact that you've tried to place this label on me simply because of my preference of play-style is different to yours is quite superficial. I've had every opportunity to name many of you what I think you to be, but because I have a bit of decency in me, I've done my best to refrain from it.

This isn't about me, and it's not about you. There's something else going on here, and I'm willing to get above the opinions and get down to the bottom of it. If you, or anyone else is not, then please just stop responding. You were doing good Frank, please keep up the new trend.

[0nionKn1ght]

Seems I was late to the sandy lady part meeting.

The old party system, while nice in my nostalgia, was horrifying, and caused hours of standing in Aht Uhrgan doing nothing at all. It sucked, I like that I can level up quickly now.

Oh and so I don't feel left out, everyone smells and you all like to dance in tutu's on poo poo. There, hope my abusive tongue matches that of everyone elses in this 16 page dear diary.

[Eyeballed]

If you look at most of the end game content released after Abyssea, its very random. With Arch-Dynamis Lord its a matter of luck on picking the right clone after he splits, with VW its luck on drops, with Nyzul Isle you rely purely on how far you go with each jump. As the quote says, Abyssea had the most proper reward system, because Reward truly was effected by effort, you could try to do something, and something would get done. However since most endgame has become very luck based, sure skill is involved, and more skill in alot of cases means less luck, but no matter what you do alot of endgame is highly effected by a random number the game comes up with and throws your way.

A lot of folks in FFXIV are complaining about the same thing. Why do you think people aren't happy with it?

[Demon6324236]

A lot of folks in FFXIV are complaining about the same thing. Why do you think people aren't happy with it?

For the same reason Tanaka was blamed for everything bad happening to this game, he was director there, and it turned out that way, so when he came here and gave it to us instead.

[Eyeballed]

For the same reason Tanaka was blamed for everything bad happening to this game, he was director there, and it turned out that way, so when he came here and gave it to us instead.

Tanaka's been gone from 14 since, what, 2010? The issue still persists. What I'm more looking to get is an answer for why they think it's a good idea.

Almost all of the endgame content in that game has far less to do with skill than it does 15min. cooldown's on instances, speed-runs, and a RNG luck-based reward system.

Is this about widespread appeal, or something else?

[FrankReynolds]

I assure that I am not, in fact, what you claim I am. The mere fact that you've tried to place this label on me simply because of my preference of play-style is different to yours is quite superficial. I've had every opportunity to name many of you what I think you to be, but because I have a bit of decency in me, I've done my best to refrain from it.

This isn't about me, and it's not about you. There's something else going on here, and I'm willing to get above the opinions and get down to the bottom of it. If you are anyone else is not, then please just stop responding. You were doing good Frank, please keep up the new trend.

It's really neither here nor there. I was only trying to point out that it's really nothing to be insulted by. The definition of the word describes your behavior.

The real meat of the post was here though:

I'm willing to bet that a parse of the Port Jeuno chat logs would reveal that you do not shout for the groups that you have been pushing for on this thread.

Furthermore, If the devs began work on implementing your requested changes, they would probably not finish before you left the game to go back to FFXIV. You're also ignoring the fact that SE are evil genies, and would likely do something totally unexpected and unwanted that you would hate even more than the current system, while in the process of making your requested changes . You're basically pushing for a largely unwanted / unnecessary / potentially terribad change that you won't even be around to benefit / suffer from, so this is really all just a great exercise for me to hone my more or less awful typing skills. *looks down at keyboard to see what keys my fingers are on*

[Eyeballed]

It's really neither here nor there. I was only trying to point out that it's really nothing to be insulted by. The definition of the word describes your behavior.

The real meat of the post was here though:

Which makes not one bit of sense to me, as the first sentence is a gross and unfounded assumption that doesn't deserve any attention in the first place. Regarding the second paragraph, fifty per cent of it is pure redundancy. I wouldn't be leaving if they were planning to change it, and if I'd gone beforehand, I'd certainly return. Along with others, no doubt! The last sentence shows just how serious he is about the whole thing.

[Demon6324236]

Tanaka's been gone from 14 since, what, 2010? The issue still persists. What I'm more looking to get is an answer for why they think it's a good idea.

Almost all of the endgame content in that game has far less to do with skill than it does 15min. cooldown's on instances, speed-runs, and a RNG luck-based reward system.

Is this about widespread appeal, or something else?

I honestly think its a combo between trying to have widespread appeal while making everything a giant time sync with RNG.

[FrankReynolds]

Which makes not one bit of sense to me, as the first sentence is a gross and unfounded assumption that doesn't deserve any attention in the first place.

It would take far less effort to say "You are wrong" or "I do shout". The fact that you couldn't do that only supports my assumptions.


Regarding the second paragraph, fifty per cent of it is pure redundancy. I wouldn't be leaving if they were planning to change it, and if I'd gone beforehand, I'd certainly return. Along with others, no doubt!

I find that very hard to believe considering that you did in fact leave when it was the way you liked it. If I was a gaming company, I would not wager my profits on that statement being true.


The last sentence shows just how serious he is about the whole thing.

Of course no one is serious in this thread. From post one, it was obvious that what the OP requested will never happen. Your playing stubborn for whatever reason it is that motivates you, which is fine. But I know that you realize that even if every single person in this thread had hit "like" on the OP, it still wouldn't make them follow through on it.

I can request a flying donkey that poops on you all day when you are in abyssea on a job that is below 99 and get 1,000,000 likes as well as the support of every player in the game, but SE is still gonna look at my request and go "Nah, that's not really what we think the game should be. Balance all the things!".

This thread serves no other purpose for most people other than to convince people that their opinion is correct. The actual request from the OP will never be reality.

[wish12oz]

How is this thread 62 pages?

Did you all really just argue with this guy for 62 pages?

Seriously, if old school parties were at all wanted or useful, people would make them. The fact is theyre not useful or wanted. There's only a very small handful of people on each server that want them back, your best option would be to try and convince SE to add an "Oldschool" server. I bet it would get enough ALTs and people who liked camping kings and exping the 'old way' to join it to make it worth having.

[Eyeballed]

It would take far less effort to say "You are wrong" or "I do shout". The fact that you couldn't do that only supports my assumptions.



I find that very hard to believe considering that you did in fact leave when it was the way you liked it. If I was a gaming company, I would not wager my profits on that statement being true.



Of course no one is serious in this thread. From post one, it was obvious that what the OP requested will never happen. Your playing stubborn for whatever reason it is that motivates you, which is fine. But I know that you realize that even if every single person in this thread had hit "like" on the OP, it still wouldn't make them follow through on it.

I can request a flying donkey that poops on you all day when you are in abyssea on a job that is below 99 and get 1,000,000 likes as well as the support of every player in the game, but SE is still gonna look at my request and go "Nah, that's not really what we think the game should be. Balance all the things!".

This thread serves no other purpose for most people other than to convince people that their opinion is correct. The actual request from the OP will never be reality.

Ok, so I will say that I have. Now what? It's pointless. It's refuting one word against another, and all boils down to who you believe, and if I thought that would carry any weight with him, I'd bother to do so. And as I've already said, I am taking this in a serious tone, am not trolling, and do care what other people's opinions are. However, I do not care for personal attacks or averting the topic with things do not contribute to it. See "You sucked at playing Ninja." Pure speculation derived from someone's haste research and not one bit from personal experience.

Again, if you're not serious about the topic, just don't respond.

[Luvbunny]

Did you all really just argue with this guy for 62 pages?

Yup, apparently we are dealing with delusional little Miss Muffin here who does not seems to understand that his/her need to do old school party is never taken away - it's just nobody wants to deal with that crap anymore. Killing crab for a bazilion time stuck in one are is not what we called "experiencing". World of Warcraft way of leveling is EXPERIENCING since all the quest/mission is pretty much how you would level and force you to explore every nook and cranny of each areas. FFXI way is to stuck 6 people in one spot for hours killing the same thing over and over till your eyes bleed.

This is why I am glad now everything is about endgame, at least you get to kill a few NMs at different places - try your luck with the drops (which most people hate the way these things are luck based), and move on. No need to wait for hours, no more needing specialized LS, or always need bunch of elitist to do anything anymore. The game has more options and many myriad ways you can do things that you will never run out of options for years.

[scaevola]

How is this thread 62 pages?

Did you all really just argue with this guy for 62 pages?


slow night at work

[Eyeballed]

I honestly think its a combo between trying to have widespread appeal while making everything a giant time sync with RNG.

And what makes this RNG system have widespread appeal, do you think? Also, do you not think this RNG system is an even cheaper way to extend content life than even the old grind?

[Eyeballed]

How is this thread 62 pages?

Did you all really just argue with this guy for 62 pages?

Seriously, if old school parties were at all wanted or useful, people would make them. The fact is theyre not useful or wanted. There's only a very small handful of people on each server that want them back, your best option would be to try and convince SE to add an "Oldschool" server. I bet it would get enough ALTs and people who liked camping kings and exping the 'old way' to join it to make it worth having.

It's gone on this long because I came looking for a discussion and all I got was flames and spam. Forgot how the internet works.

[scaevola]

And what makes this RNG system have widespread appeal, do you think?

Go ask Bugsy Siegel, I guess.

[wish12oz]

No need to wait for hours, no more needing specialized LS, or always need bunch of elitist to do anything anymore. The game has more options and many myriad ways you can do things that you will never run out of options for years.

I like your post, but the newest added events actually require a large LS again. For instance my LS (10~ people) tried Odin V2 the other day, only got it to 50%~ before timing out, lol. And we can barley do Legion/new Ultima/new Omega and win. Game is shifting back to requiring to many people, which I don't really like.


It's gone on this long because I came looking for a discussion and all I got was flames and spam. Forgot how the internet works.

I lol'd. Good try trying to say it's everyone else's fault. The truth is you just don't want to admit that the new way is better and more liked. Forcing people to EXP the way you want is a bad move for game design, and people will be upset. It was very hard to find people 3 years ago to exp with, it would be even more impossible now. You on the other hand, still have the ability to create an 'old school party' and go do it your way. Nothing is stopping you, except maybe your inability to accept you're wrong and quit posting and go play. Options are good, whether you like it or not.

[Eyeballed]

I lol'd. Good try trying to say it's everyone else's fault. The truth is you just don't want to admit that the new way is better and more liked. Forcing people to EXP the way you want is a bad move for game design, and people will be upset. It was very hard to find people 3 years ago to exp with, it would be even more impossible now. You on the other hand, still have the ability to create an 'old school party' and go do it your way. Nothing is stopping you, except maybe your inability to accept you're wrong and quit posting and go play. Options are good, whether you like it or not.

Have you read all 62 pages? The truth is you're about to open up the same can of worms that's been over and over again already, and here you are affirming that you haven't read much of anything previously. Do that, and then come back to this end of the discussion. You're effectively answering your own question as to how this has gone on this long.

[cidbahamut]

It has gone on this long because you're feeding off the attention and insisting on responding to every single thing that gets posted in this thread.

[Luvbunny]

I like your post, but the newest added events actually require a large LS again. For instance my LS (10~ people) tried Odin V2 the other day, only got it to 50%~ before timing out, lol. And we can barley do Legion/new Ultima/new Omega and win. Game is shifting back to requiring to many people, which I don't really like.

I think some of the newest contents added are for those people who still likes to do it with 17 others and wants some challenge. Legion and Neo Einherjar are two prime examples. The good thing is that the gears obtained there are not game breaking and provide alternatives from empyrean+2 and VW gears. What's good with the state of the game now is that there are so many varieties to choose from and at least they are giving casual players more options than it used to be. Who knows, maybe they will release some sort of "brew" for those two contents. They came up with displacer a year after voidwatch was released. Their attitude however has changed, now you no longer get the sane progression reward system Abyssea style - instead we are getting the old school luck based reward system - and in some cases, a hybrid one with gears obtained by points, and gears dropped with random luck.

[Eyeballed]

It has gone on this long because you're feeding off the attention and insisting on responding to every single thing that gets posted in this thread.

Well, I guess if people shouldn't expect responses, then maybe they shouldn't post, yeah?

[Khiinroye]

Most of your "responses" have amounted to "lalala I can't hear you, stop insulting me and being mean, you can't make an argument and are wasting my time." That is called spamming.

[cidbahamut]

Most of your "responses" have amounted to "lalala I can't hear you, stop insulting me and being mean, you can't make an argument and are wasting my time." That is called spamming.

I think it might also be classified as trolling.

[Twille]

I think it's long past time that this thread be locked down.

[Eyeballed]

I think it's long past time that this thread be locked down.

Why? We were just getting somewhere constructive in the last 4-5 pages! If people would knock off the BS we could actually talk about the last few questions I've presented and move forward.

[Meyi]

Well then, if you'd like a serious discussion. Let's begin.

I'm not going to read through 30-some pages to try and find the answer to this, so I would greatly appreciate it if your next post could list every reason why you would like to see EXP parties return and Abyssea parties be removed from the game. In exchange I will list every reason why we should not return to old EXP parties.

[Trisscar]

I think it might also be classified as trolling.
Or flame baiting.

[Mirage]

trolling is just newspeak for flame baiting anyway

[Plasticleg]

why haven't they completely nuked this thread yet?

[Arcon]

Why? We were just getting somewhere constructive in the last 4-5 pages! If people would knock off the BS we could actually talk about the last few questions I've presented and move forward.

Which questions? I don't see anything unanswered.

[Eyeballed]

Well then, if you'd like a serious discussion. Let's begin.

I'm not going to read through 30-some pages to try and find the answer to this, so I would greatly appreciate it if your next post could list every reason why you would like to see EXP parties return and Abyssea parties be removed from the game. In exchange I will list every reason why we should not return to old EXP parties.

Abyssea, Book & Repeating Book Pages:

- Fosters potential for abuse. (Ability to progress without playing, IE cheating)
- Diminishes value/need for mid-game gears. (Those who still play classic will need)
- Rewards the player with higher EXP/hr. for spamming EP-- mobs. (Diminished need for challenge/engaging battles)
- Player who 'burns' a job from 1-XX loses skill points that would otherwise be gained. (Creating a new and unnecessary need for manually raising these skills; Reference "increased rate of skill-point gain" to supplement this fact.)
- Supplants a general perspective that endgame content is the whole of the content the game intends to provide.
- Caters an equal reward system to all, regardless of time or effort put into a goal.

[Eyeballed]

Which questions? I don't see anything unanswered.

This:


Go ask Bugsy Siegel, I guess.

Does not qualify as an answer.

[scaevola]

This:



Does not qualify as an answer.


Sure it does.

Some people, MANY people in fact, find a random-number-based reward structure viscerally exciting. Many smart people have spent their entire professional lives arguing about why this is the case and we might even have an answer, but the slot machines of Las Vegas keep taking your quarters no matter how much you realize the odds are stacked against you.


ANYWAY


- Fosters potential for abuse. (Ability to progress without playing, IE cheating)

Did you not recommend I SMN burn a few pages back? People who want to cheat will either get away with cheating or will find someone they can pay enough to let them get away with cheating.


- Diminishes value/need for mid-game gears. (Those who still play classic will need)

This assumes the conclusion that their purpose has not already been made obsolete. It's like saying we should get rid of cars because they diminish the value of buggy whips.


- Rewards the player with higher EXP/hr. for spamming EP-- mobs. (Diminished need for challenge/engaging battles)

We were never rewarded for engaging in difficult battles to begin with. XP/hour was ALWAYS higher when fighting VT than IT; we just didn't actually figure it out for awhile.


- Player who 'burns' a job from 1-XX loses skill points that would otherwise be gained. (Creating a new and unnecessary need for manually raising these skills; Reference "increased rate of skill-point gain" to supplement this fact.)

A player who starts a job at level 1 and burns it to 99 will ultimately reach a given skill cap faster than one who starts the same job at level 1 and levels the old fashioned way. True or false?


- Supplants a general perspective that endgame content is the whole of the content the game intends to provide.

As I had mentioned earlier, if FFXI offered a narrative arc to accompany the leveling process, there would be a point here, but all FFXI narrative is totally separate from the leveling process. It has way less in common with other FFs and is a lot like Wizardry or Ultima in this regard: leveling is just a Thing You Do to Get Deeper in the Dungeon.


- Caters an equal reward system to all, regardless of time or effort put into a goal.

This is true, but myopic because as I and several other posters mentioned, the uneven rewards of old school leveling were based entirely on the metagame of convince-other-idiots-you-are-awesome and not at all on actually killing mobs (which any shuriken-using yokel could do). To the extent that actual knowledge of game mechanics and skill in execution entered into the equation at all, they entered in to it less than any MMO this side of Korean shovelware.

This statement buys into what I think is the particularly American delusion that time and effort invested matter in and of themselves, and not simply as means to results.

[Eyeballed]

Sure it does.

Some people, MANY people in fact, find a random-number-based reward structure viscerally exciting. Many smart people have spent their entire professional lives arguing about why this is the case and we might even have an answer, but the slot machines of Las Vegas keep taking your quarters no matter how much you realize the odds are stacked against you.

We had abysmal drop rates before the advent of RNG-madness. There's a skinner-box in both, but why do we now have a system that rewards 100% effort the same as a relative naught? In my opinion, the 'hardcore' is being forced to a casual's approach to gaming. If this is true, where MMO's are concerned, (as they are known for consuming inordinate amounts of time), what's the real purpose?

[scaevola]

You think that because you are totally unaware of/resistant to the fact that the ENTIRE process you're pining for, start to finish, has moved to level 99.

You're like a six-year-old answering every question with "but whyyyyyyyy?"

[Eyeballed]

You're like a six-year-old answering every question with "but whyyyyyyyy?"

And you're like the big person whose only response is "Because I said so." Blocked. Bye now.

[scaevola]

I really don't get blocking somebody because they disagree with you. I'm not heckling you. You're responding. We're having a tete-a-tete.

The only person I've ever blocked on these forums was Kingfury, because of his porny sig.

[Mirage]

Oh man, I remember when I thought it was really cool when I announced publically that I would put people on my ignore list.
Ah, those glorious teenage years.

[Eyeballed]

Oh man, I remember when I thought it was really cool when I announced publically that I would put people on my ignore list.
Ah, those glorious teenage years.

The point is to stop them from bothering to reply to anything else I post, as I won't read it. It's a necessary pro-active measure to keep them from wasting their time and mine. It has nothing to do with feeling 'cool'.

Congratulations, yet again, on bumping this thread back up to the top with your choice commentary.

[Khiinroye]

Abyssea, Book & Repeating Book Pages:

- Fosters potential for abuse. (Ability to progress without playing, IE cheating)
- Diminishes value/need for mid-game gears. (Those who still play classic will need)
- Rewards the player with higher EXP/hr. for spamming EP-- mobs. (Diminished need for challenge/engaging battles)
- Player who 'burns' a job from 1-XX loses skill points that would otherwise be gained. (Creating a new and unnecessary need for manually raising these skills; Reference "increased rate of skill-point gain" to supplement this fact.)
- Supplants a general perspective that endgame content is the whole of the content the game intends to provide.
- Caters an equal reward system to all, regardless of time or effort put into a goal.

- Smn burns (caused by level sync) do the same thing. Three or four good players could get a decent xp rate on T-VT, even before abyssea and GoV, which allows leechers. Your solution does not prevent this. "/pcmd kick name" will remove afkers from any of your parties.

- Smn burns do the same thing, as do level sync parties. Your solution does not prevent this.

- FoV and GoV were designed to supplement solo and lowman XP. This was implemented to assist jobs that were excluded from the old 6-man party system who had to solo or they would get little to no xp. To ask to revoke this is to say that non-favored jobs deserved to have slower rates of xp than favored jobs.

- Smn burns do the same thing, as do level sync parties. At high levels, skillups came so slowly that even with the old xp system, skillup parties were still needed. Every job is able to use a variety of different weapons, which are not skilled in an xp party and must still be skilled outside of xp. Furthermore, if a skill is levelled from a previous job, the skill is retained when you switch jobs, and does not need to be relevelled. See: skillup parties in Kuftal, the boyahda tree, and various coffer key locations (multitasking!). Your solution does not prevent this, and has an incorrect attribution to the cause of the problem.

- SE explcitly stated that they were shifting focus to endgame content, rather than rehashing the old low / mid level content that most players had already completed and moved on from. Furthermore, they removed the level cap on nation and CoP missions to allow the playerbase to use their predominantly lv 75 main jobs to experience the content, rather than be forced to slog through them with artificially increased difficulty. Your solution runs counter to SE's expressed direction for the game.

- The old xp system catered to rewarding a few jobs, regardless of time or effort that other jobs expended. A rdm or brd who was absolutely atrocious at his job, and went to each party in lv 1 gear could level 100 times faster than a drg or smn who had perfect gear and knew every aspect of the game inside and out. See the term Princess (brd, rdm, whm). Furthermore, players who did not carry their weight in a party were still rewarded with the same amount of xp as the rest of the party. Your solution fails to reward based on effort.

Removing abyssea, FoV, and GoV fails to provide solutions on all counts.

[scaevola]

The point is to stop them from bothering to reply to anything else I post, as I won't read it. It's a necessary pro-active measure to keep them from wasting their time and mine. It has nothing to do with feeling 'cool'.

Congratulations, yet again, on bumping this thread back up to the top with your choice commentary.

^
thinks i was responding for his benefit

[Mirage]

The point is to stop them from bothering to reply to anything else I post, as I won't read it. It's a necessary pro-active measure to keep them from wasting their time and mine. It has nothing to do with feeling 'cool'.

Congratulations, yet again, on bumping this thread back up to the top with your choice commentary.

You seem to think that I have something against this thread being at the top :p.

[Eyeballed]

- Smn burns (caused by level sync) do the same thing. Three or four good players could get a decent xp rate on T-VT, even before abyssea and GoV, which allows leechers. Your solution does not prevent this. "/pcmd kick name" will remove afkers from any of your parties.

- Smn burns do the same thing, as do level sync parties. Your solution does not prevent this.

- FoV and GoV were designed to supplement solo and lowman XP. This was implemented to assist jobs that were excluded from the old 6-man party system who had to solo or they would get little to no xp. To ask to revoke this is to say that non-favored jobs deserved to have slower rates of xp than favored jobs.

- Smn burns do the same thing, as do level sync parties. At high levels, skillups came so slowly that even with the old xp system, skillup parties were still needed. Every job is able to use a variety of different weapons, which are not skilled in an xp party and must still be skilled outside of xp. Furthermore, if a skill is levelled from a previous job, the skill is retained when you switch jobs, and does not need to be relevelled. See: skillup parties in Kuftal, the boyahda tree, and various coffer key locations (multitasking!). Your solution does not prevent this, and has an incorrect attribution to the cause of the problem.

- SE explcitly stated that they were shifting focus to endgame content, rather than rehashing the old low / mid level content that most players had already completed and moved on from. Furthermore, they removed the level cap on nation and CoP missions to allow the playerbase to use their predominantly lv 75 main jobs to experience the content, rather than be forced to slog through them with artificially increased difficulty. Your solution runs counter to SE's expressed direction for the game.

- The old xp system catered to rewarding a few jobs, regardless of time or effort that other jobs expended. A rdm or brd who was absolutely atrocious at his job, and went to each party in lv 1 gear could level 100 times faster than a drg or smn who had perfect gear and knew every aspect of the game inside and out. See the term Princess (brd, rdm, whm). Furthermore, players who did not carry their weight in a party were still rewarded with the same amount of xp as the rest of the party. Your solution fails to reward based on effort.

Removing abyssea, FoV, and GoV fails to provide solutions on all counts.

- Do you agree that cheating should be allowed to persist?

- Do you agree that mid-game doesn't matter in the way that it doesn't matter now?

- I can't deny that you still needed skill-ups after hitting cap at 75 previously. However, it doesn't speak to the degree of skilling-up that would be required when attaining numerous levels (if not all) when participating little-to-none otherwise.

- "Focusing on endgame content" should in no way mean "negate much of the rest of the game that already existed".

- This is true in some respects. I agree that a RDM or BRD could and would get invites without having the party flags up, where a THF or BST could go their entire career without having that happen (with their flags up). Simply because you had the luxury of people fighting over your presence on one job doesn't mean you should expect that to happen on others. And I'll go with my usual defense of, "If you wanted it, you should take the responsibility for going out to get it".

[Neisan_Quetz]

1. What cheating
2. Midgame never mattered
4. Eco-warrior, diorama, expeditionary force... there's a reason none of these are done
5. Why haven't you applied this to yourself instead of complaining so much

[Eyeballed]

1. What cheating
2. Midgame never mattered
4. Eco-warrior, diorama, expeditionary force... there's a reason none of these are done
5. Why haven't you applied this to yourself instead of complaining so much

Your contributions have been even less valuable than those fueled by pure flames. Blocked.

[FrankReynolds]

I'll field a few.


- Do you agree that cheating should be allowed to persist?

In as far as the cheating we're currently discussing goes: The game maker has acknowledged the "leech" method of leveling as an intended mechanic of the game.

I actually like it. When I shout for PUG now, there is a relatively high chance that everyone will have the jobs we need to get it done. How they got there is none of my concern.


- Do you agree that mid-game doesn't matter in the way that it doesn't matter now?

I feel like the only reason for it to exist was that the level cap used to be "Mid Level", so they made content for that. That is no longer the case, so it is no longer needed.


- I can't deny that you still needed skill-ups after hitting cap at 75 previously. However, it doesn't speak to the degree of skilling-up that would be required when attaining numerous levels (if not all) when participating little-to-none otherwise.

Regardless, it still takes less time to level a job and cap skills now, than it did to just level the job back then.


- "Focusing on endgame content" should in no way mean "negate much of the rest of the game that already existed".

It should. That's what end game means.


- This is true in some respects. I agree that a RDM or BRD could and would get invites without having the party flags up, where a THF or BST could go their entire career without having that happen (with their flags up). Simply because you had the luxury of people fighting over your presence on one job doesn't mean you should expect that to happen on others. And I'll go with my usual defense of, "If you wanted it, you should take the responsibility for going out to get it".


This is exactly the response that you have ignored countless times when told that old school leveling still exists.

[Mirage]

I never did eco warrior, diorama, expeditionary force or garrison during any of the years i played pre-abyssea. So I can't say I felt much of a change in that department. The only parts of the game that made mid-game people feel like they mattered was level capped CoP missions, imo.

But at this time in the game's life, I wouldn't really want CoP level caps back.

[Eyeballed]

I never did eco warrior, diorama, expeditionary force or garrison during any of the years i played pre-abyssea. So I can't say I felt much of a change in that department. The only parts of the game that made mid-game people feel like they mattered was level capped CoP missions, imo.

But at this time in the game's life, I wouldn't really want CoP level caps back.

But why not? Haven't you and the rest of Vanadiel finished them?

[Meyi]

Abyssea, Book & Repeating Book Pages:

- Fosters potential for abuse. (Ability to progress without playing, IE cheating)
- Diminishes value/need for mid-game gears. (Those who still play classic will need)
- Rewards the player with higher EXP/hr. for spamming EP-- mobs. (Diminished need for challenge/engaging battles)
- Player who 'burns' a job from 1-XX loses skill points that would otherwise be gained. (Creating a new and unnecessary need for manually raising these skills; Reference "increased rate of skill-point gain" to supplement this fact.)
- Supplants a general perspective that endgame content is the whole of the content the game intends to provide.
- Caters an equal reward system to all, regardless of time or effort put into a goal.

Thanks.

1. Potential abuse. This is true. However, it happened sometimes in regular parties as well. Not as frequently because a terrible player/afker could be spotted by a slower exp rate, and thus kicked, but it still happened.

2. Mid-game gears. Very true that this is obsolete. Unfortunately it had started to diminish before Abyssea's introduction because many people had finished leveling their desired jobs to 75 and were no longer interested in leveling more. When I wanted to level my Paladin (solo by the way), I was disappointed to see the level 30 CoP introduced gear was not on the auction house. For days. As a result I crafted my smithing up and started making my own pieces of gear. Thankfully anyone can level smithing up to 60 without any consequences on their other crafts if that gear set is desired. It's slow and unfortunate, but possible to do on one's own.

3. Higher EXP on Easy Prey monsters. Actually, I believe Square Enix stated at some point they had never expected players to engage incredibly tough monsters in parties of six, but rather smaller parties on even matches, toughs, and very toughs instead (Note: I don't have a link for verification). Even before the EXP addition these monster choices resulted in faster EXP, but players chose to engage the hardest they could.

I wouldn't say they were a challenge... they were just slow and irritating.It was almost always crabs we engaged in. And if it wasn't crabs, it was most likely crawlers. It wasn't until the addition of Chains of Promathia we broke the monotony with dhalmels in Bibiki Bay... and that was only for higher levels. With Treasure of Aht Urgan we experienced a spike in EXP/hr, squishier monsters (colibri and imps), and the highest EXP chains ever (remember EXP chain #307?).

So really, the fall of engaging in difficult monsters began in Chains of Promathia with Treasure of Aht Urgan really kicking it up to gear and Abyssea excelling it exponentially.

The addition to making EXP double outside of Abyssea was nice. I think Square Enix was going to add it regardless of Abyssea. But maybe not. Regardless, just like all things in life, we humans will choose the least resisted path to our destination. Killing smaller monsters quicker for equally strong EXP is going to be chosen over harder monsters by the majority of people. The only times the reverse is true is when someone is needing something specifically from a harder monster or when someone is bored and looking for a challenge.

4. Skill loss. True, but this was already an issue way before Abyssea was even thought of by Square Enix. Skill up parties have been around since I've been playing the game (back in 2003). And this was necessary for everyone; DD leveling up their main or a second choice weapon, tanks leveling up their parry/guard/shield/evasion, mages leveling up their weapons and magic skills, etc. Skill ups have always been a burden on the player base. Now, yes, they are an even bigger burden to us, but really skill ups are easy enough to get in a few days that partying to 99 and then capping is efficient.

Also, way before Abyssea came Level Sync. The benefit of Level Sync was finally having enough of each class to select from but the burden was poor skill ups. Well, and midlevel gear had difficulties staying afloat as well -- people just went from Qufim to merit parties.

5. Strong focus on end game content. Hm, I recall people always being obsessed with end game. I never liked it because it was unpleasant for me so I chose to solo a lot and level up several jobs. But usually the whole point of leveling a job was being able to attend events and be useful for the linkshell.

There was a lot of end game back at 75, such as Dynamis, Sky, Sea, Limbus, Assaults/Nyzul, Salvage, Einherjar, HNM kings, etc. There was so much to do every day that many linkshells had their members running from event to event from the time they logged on to the time they logged off. These members didn't have much time to level up new jobs either.

The only midgame content I can think of would be CoP missions (which have had their caps lifted), some BCNMs, and leveling. Oh and I guess there was Expeditionary Forces and Garrison. Never was a lot to choose from.

There's really two parts to an MMORPG. Part one is getting a job's level maxed. Part two begins at the end of part one and is using said maxed job to slay monsters for the collection of armors and goods. As of 2012, part one is expodentially sped up, but part two is equally important.

6. Equal rewards. I like equality. At the end of the day I don't really care if someone else got something with less effort as me, because it is just a game and their possession of an item does not affect me. I'm much happier to have an easier chance at obtaining my end goals.

~~

Reasons for why I like Abyssea:

1. Faster EXP. I like being able to get my jobs to 99 quicker. I restarted a character, so leveing the jobs I had at 75 again on my new character quickly makes me happy. I know how to play them from the 75 days so I guess I can't say how easy or difficult it is to learn a job without an oldschool party/solo, but as a person who is releveling it's marvelous. I was able to get my skill ups high relatively quick, and it was nice on my pocketbook not having to buy several different sets of armor or wait to level because I couldn't buy that new piece of equipment I really needed.

The downfall to faster EXP is the lack of anticipation. On one hand I get bored and struggle to not fall asleep while partying in Gusgen Mines and Abyssea, but on the other hand I'm impatient and want my levels instantly. I wouldn't mind some oldschool parties, but I'd like to also keep the possibility of leveling fast should I grow tired of people doing stupid things and slowing me down.

2. Equality. I like how in GoV parties and Abyssea parties all jobs are welcome. That's so beautiful. That's the first time in Vana'diel history that all players were treated as equals. Oldschool parties, like I've said in the past, demanded we have specific jobs to party. And even if different camps asked for different jobs, said jobs couldn't get past the levels with the camps they weren't welcome at.

3. Strong armor. Strong, easy to obtain armor that doesn't require hours upon hours of fighting the random number generator system are beautiful. As someone who avoids tougher end game activities, I liked that I finally had a shot at some of the best gear. I could take a few of my friends and get seals and gems, have fun, and walk away at the end of the day without a headache and with something to show for our time. So beautiful.

4. Diversity. Because it's so easy to level jobs now, many people are willing to level appropriate sub jobs and main jobs for events.

5. Fun. I find Abyssea fun. I like proccing yellow for people. I suppose being a black mage makes that biased because I can proc 5/7 of the spells, but I enjoy the simplicity yet alluring mystery the proc system can have. Abyssite of Discernment has made this easier, but even knowing the element a person doesn't know the exact spell until it goes off. Still have to time it so it's not dirty. If you want challenge, try proccing Ancient Magic on Triturators.

6. Not held back by idiots. There's always been a lot of morons in this game... and they still exist to this day. People who can't follow directions, who can't read instructions, or just straight up derp out and forget how to use a keyboard all exist on this game. In large portions. In oldschool parties, our EXP would suffer from people like this guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhQg7PC3CDY). In Abyssea, I can solo fast enough to not care what other people are doing. I can solo a lot more in this game and therefore don't have to rely on unreliable fools.

Plus if they leave prematurely I'm not left to suffer because of it.

7. Camps aren't always full. I always hated when we'd take two hours to gather a party, run out to camp, and find it taken by another party who had managed to get there between our "/sea area" and arrival. Or even worse, when a beastmaster would be there or when I was beastmaster and a party would invade on me. People were frequently jerks who would overcamp on other people and destroy the speed of EXP for everyone. Now Abyssea has lots of camps, people can come and go in parties and there are lots of camps to choose from in each zone.

8. The game's a game again. Since starting the game, the message of "don't forget your friends, family, school or work" was always a joke. But with Abyssea, the game finally became a game again. It was easy to log on, get some friends quickly, farm some seals or get some exp, log off an hour or two later and actually have something to show for the hour of work.

[Trisscar]

Your contributions have been even less valuable than those fueled by pure flames. Blocked.

You keep on blocking people who disagree with you as if that makes your arguments that more relevant. But soon, you'll have no one to post to but yourself.

[Luvbunny]

Meyi, thanks for posting such a detailed matter why Abyssea works and did something great to the game. It's great to see someone who appreciate it rather than putting the blame of everything that is wrong with the game to Abyssea :)

[Demon6324236]

And what makes this RNG system have widespread appeal, do you think? Also, do you not think this RNG system is an even cheaper way to extend content life than even the old grind?

The reason it has widespread appeal is it is accessible, so anyone can do it. The problem is with the best gear which is only a sidegrade in many cases, so for those who want the better gear they must do it much more often and it becomes a very big pain.

[Luvbunny]

Your contributions have been even less valuable than those fueled by pure flames. Blocked.

Why don't you go back baking cookies? Perhaps Miss Brownie here need more "arguments" for her ADD, seems like she-he just cannot face the fact that mid level content has been dead for over 8 years, loooooong gone. Apparently she never get the memo, ToAU pretty much killed it good. Balls-soup, your concern is 6 years late, should have voiced more opinion back then - at the very least SE listened to the player base, killed old school way of doing things, and give us more fun than we can handle at endgame.

[Meyi]

Why don't you go back baking cookies? Perhaps Miss Brownie here need more "arguments" for her ADD, seems like she-he just cannot face the fact that mid level content has been dead for over 8 years, loooooong gone. Apparently she never get the memo, ToAU pretty much killed it good. Balls-soup, your concern is 6 years late, should have voiced more opinion back then - at the very least SE listened to the player base, killed old school way of doing things, and give us more fun than we can handle at endgame.

Luvbunny, nobody's going to want to listen to you when you insult them so harshly. Discuss her opinions voiced, not her herself.

[Eyeballed]

Luvbunny, nobody's going to want to listen to you when you insult them so harshly. Discuss her opinions voiced, not her herself.

It's cool Meyi, I'm sure all these people talk to everyday people the same way and aren't just being internet badasses.

[FrankReynolds]

It's cool Meyi, I'm sure all these people talk to everyday people the same way and aren't just being internet badasses.

That goes both ways to be honest. I do generally blurt out curses and insult people in my day to day speech. Over a decade working as a chef has awarded me with a large multi-language vocabulary comprised mostly of food items and vulgarities. If people I knew in real life read what I wrote on this forum, they wouldn't believe it was me . Just asking how may day went might entail several F-bombs in RL, but this is the interwebz and pulling the real life card here is much like saying "My dad can beat up your dad" in a 2nd grade playground brawl. We have no idea how many of these math nerds look like Tupac in RL, and how many of the "chicks" aren't really mithras. Pulling the "your not really hard" thing is sorta lame, all things considered. No one here made any claims to be a bad ass in RL. That's a cheap argument.

[Luvbunny]

Luvbunny, nobody's going to want to listen to you when you insult them so harshly. Discuss her opinions voiced, not her herself.

I think everyone already tried to discuss it, politely, but he seems to not listen and keep arguing that mid level content should be revived and old school xp party to be resurrected so that he can experience it all by himself and force other to do it his way. Even as people try to explain that BCNMs are a good alternative to low mid level content and people still do these for ninja scroll. Over 50 pages arguing the same thing, over and over again, with him insulting others right and left who have different opinions and stating their perfectly sane arguments. His main beef is that he wants to experience it, why can't he.... And we all said, yes YOU CAN, you just have to find others like minded people. To which his response always, these people do not exist, the whole system is against me, blah blah blah.

[FrankReynolds]

I think everyone already tried to discuss it, politely, but he seems to not listen and keep arguing that mid level content should be revived and old school xp party to be resurrected so that he can experience it all by himself and force other to do it his way. Even as people try to explain that BCNMs are a good alternative to low mid level content and people still do these for ninja scroll. Over 50 pages arguing the same thing, over and over again, with him insulting others right and left who have different opinions and stating their perfectly sane arguments. His main beef is that he wants to experience it, why can't he.... And we all said, yes YOU CAN, you just have to find others like minded people. To which his response always, these people do not exist, the whole system is against me, blah blah blah.

To be honest, this whole thread is basically him seeing how long we can "be the better person". It's really remarkable how long this has gone without someone just shouting insults in multi-colored caps on one side or another. It's amusing that the OP conceded like 50 pages ago. :P

[Luvbunny]

To be honest, this whole thread is basically him seeing how long we can "be the better person".

Yeah I am not really sure what he really wants.... The older veterans do not want to go through the leveling grind of yesteryears anymore where you wait for hours for things to get done. The newer players surely do not want to deal with all the hassle of "old school" and would be happily leech to 99. I remember meeting many new players who get frustrated easily around 2010 when GoV has not been introduced yet and most of the veteran enjoying the abyssea express system while they get stuck outside to level their jobs the old ways unless someone is kind enough to let them leech. There is a reason why GoV party is extremely popular and the developers did nothing about afk leechers and even made the book pages auto repeat. 99% of the population wants to do the actual game, which is end game, and have fun ASAP and not waiting for 6 months to reach 99. The game has changed since 2006 with ToAU - but abyssea made it way better as Meiyi outlined on his post. Eyeballs just need to admit defeat and either accept the fact or move on, quit, or find a few players who want to join on his sadistic adventure of old school ways.

[Arcon]

Meyi, thanks for posting such a detailed matter why Abyssea works and did something great to the game. It's great to see someone who appreciate it rather than putting the blame of everything that is wrong with the game to Abyssea :)

Does your Abyssea fanboyism know any boundaries at all? You just commented something completely off-topic (much like this post) just to say how much you liked Abyssea.

[Luvbunny]

Does your Abyssea fanboyism know any boundaries at all? You just commented something completely off-topic (much like this post) just to say how much you liked Abyssea.

Uhm I was just commenting on Meiyi's post and how he was able to articulate his points on abyss and how great that is. Please go back spreading abyssea hate, I really need everyone to get out of abyssea zones. Thanks for your support :)

[Eyeballed]

That goes both ways to be honest. I do generally blurt out curses and insult people in my day to day speech. Over a decade working as a chef has awarded me with a large multi-language vocabulary comprised mostly of food items and vulgarities. If people I knew in real life read what I wrote on this forum, they wouldn't believe it was me . Just asking how may day went might entail several F-bombs in RL, but this is the interwebz and pulling the real life card here is much like saying "My dad can beat up your dad" in a 2nd grade playground brawl. We have no idea how many of these math nerds look like Tupac in RL, and how many of the "chicks" aren't really mithras. Pulling the "your not really hard" thing is sorta lame, all things considered. No one here made any claims to be a bad ass in RL. That's a cheap argument.

I'm sorry Frank, but just because you find it dandy to demean/insult others in real life doesn't mean you have the right to advocate it. It only makes you look like "King Internet Badass" because not only do you do it online, but you do it IRL too. Neither of which are commendable characteristics of civilized human behavior.

Like I've said, I could sit back and say, "You bunch of lazy dumbfuck shitass casual cunts are ruining the face of competitive gaming because once upon a time you couldn't find a party and nobody would invite you and omg this takes too long and omg this is so boring why do I play it omg how does anyone like this WAAAAHHHH someone make it stoooopp!!!" ....

But I won't. :)

[Demon6324236]

"You bunch of lazy dumbfuck shitass casual cunts are ruining the face of competitive gaming because once upon a time you couldn't find a party and nobody would invite you and omg this takes too long and omg this is so boring why do I play it omg how does anyone like this WAAAAHHHH someone make it stoooopp!!!"
But I won't. :)

That would be so much more entertaining though O_O;

[Arcon]

Uhm I was just commenting on Meiyi's post and how he was able to articulate his points on abyss and how great that is. Please go back spreading abyssea hate, I really need everyone to get out of abyssea zones. Thanks for your support :)

I'm not spreading Abyssea hate, I didn't do so for a long time. I've come to see how useless it is to argue with fanboys and I'm ashamed to admit how long it took me to realize that. But don't worry about me, like many players I've already moved on. The only times I ever set foot in it is to help others.

I'm just satisfied to know SE saw what their mistake was and hope they'll learn from it.


I'm sorry Frank, but just because you find it dandy to demean/insult others in real life doesn't mean you have the right to advocate it. It only makes you look like "King Internet Badass" because not only do you do it online, but you do it IRL too.

Only he didn't do it on here. And that was kinda his point.

[Luvbunny]

But don't worry about me, like many players I've already moved on. The only times I ever set foot in it is to help others. I'm just satisfied to know SE saw what their mistake was and hope they'll learn from it.

Awesome, I wish everyone else would move on as well and leave abyssea zones alone and empty, cannot wait for this to happen, SOON please. Meh, I think SE "realized their mistake" then realized that people want easy button, hence displacer is introduced to Voidwatch to make it easier to just brew everything. Abyssea reared its ugly pretty head again and influencing things in the game. Let's see how they plan to revamp with SoA. Turn it back to old school and watch everyone leaves in droves, make it Abyssea version 2.0, and a lot will rejoice :)

[Arcon]

Awesome, I wish everyone else would move on as well and leave abyssea zones alone and empty, cannot wait for this to happen, SOON please.

What are you talking about, it's already empty. On Leviathan there's 126 people across all Abyssea zones right now. There used to be that much in a single zone about a year and a half ago and sometimes even more. And I'd bet a majority of them are afk leeching EXP, so they shouldn't bother you either. The zones are yours for the taking. Congratulations.


Turn it back to old school and watch everyone leaves in droves, make it Abyssea version 2.0, and a lot will rejoice :)

Groundless assumption, as that was never the case with Abyssea either. Wishful thinking on your part, because you're biased towards it.

[Demon6324236]

Ok say it more simply. They make everything a grinding annoyance with luck based systems determining everything you get, which will make people mad. They make everything balanced in a reward to effort ratio, which will make most happy. Or they will make things take absurdly high amounts of time, which will again make alot of people mad.

[Falseliberty]

.... this thread is still going lolol
I like how 4-5 people making alot of noise are acting as "the voice of the playerbase"
just make your point and move on.. oh wait whats the fun in that.

[Mirage]

But why not? Haven't you and the rest of Vanadiel finished them?
I did about half of it with level caps, and half of it without level caps, so yes, I have finished them. I was perhaps at promy vahzl when the caps were lifted.

The reason I don't want them back is that new players would have a really hard time completing them with the current top-heavy game. It would be better if they could do them on their own with perhaps one or two people with them, whenever they were strong enough to do so. Putting only CoP back at level cap will not shift the game significantly towards midgame being relevant again, and would just create frustration.

If you wanted to do that, you would have to turn back time for a lot of the parts of FF11, including the parts that most players think are way better now. It would simply cost SE a lot of subscribers, way more than they would get back from having a "harder" game. Although, nothing is really hard about grinding for hours.

[FrankReynolds]

I don't understand the desire to do things on a half leveled job. As a matter of fact, I don't even see that as the middle of the game any more. I see abyssea gear / NMs / dynamis / merit / skillup parties as the middle. The higher end being neonyzul legion etc.

getting your character to 99 doesn't mean it's done and you have nothing left to do on that job. You still need like 1,000,000 merit points, a bunch of gear and a bunch of weapon skills quests.

[Luvbunny]

What are you talking about, it's already empty. On Leviathan there's 126 people across all Abyssea zones right now. There used to be that much in a single zone about a year and a half ago and sometimes even more. And I'd bet a majority of them are afk leeching EXP, so they shouldn't bother you either. The zones are yours for the taking. Congratulations.

I wish that was the case in Bahamut, seems like everyone cannot leave the crack that is abyssea. Competition everywhere on every single things, VNMs, camped NMs, even black mandy camp in Altepa. I need a server with dead abyssea zones lol.

[Eyeballed]

The reason it has widespread appeal is it is accessible, so anyone can do it. The problem is with the best gear which is only a sidegrade in many cases, so for those who want the better gear they must do it much more often and it becomes a very big pain.

Right, so the system we're moving toward is content that is much more accessible by all players doing the RNG horizontal mambo. Easy to access, low/moderate difficulty and in trade a mind-numbing spamfest.

[Demon6324236]

Right, so the system we're moving toward is content that is much more accessible by all players doing the RNG horizontal mambo. Easy to access, low/moderate difficulty and in trade a mind-numbing spamfest.

Exactly, when in truth I think it should be accessible by all, somewhat difficult, and always rewarding. I have a point system (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/25303-Voidwatch-the-Ticket-Point-System-idea.) that people seem to somewhat ignore or at least never respond to all to much, that I think would be great for VW type content. If RNG is screwing you long enough it eventually adds up to giving you the item anyways. Making people go 1/1 while others go 1/300 is stupid in game design, but so is closing off content to half of the players due to their personal time constraints or inability to play a game at certain times. Neither should be acceptable in game design, all content should be available to all players, and everyone should stand an equal chance at acquiring things, while if given enough time you can get whatever you wish, and luck still gets to play its part up to a point.

[Demon6324236]

Heroes VNMs are probably spammed on EVERY server, just an assumption but I have a near impossible time of finding them alone on Phoenix, and I'm sure were not the only server who wants Ochain PLDs & DBRDs.

[Eyeballed]

Exactly, when in truth I think it should be accessible by all, somewhat difficult, and always rewarding. I have a point system (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/25303-Voidwatch-the-Ticket-Point-System-idea.) that people seem to somewhat ignore or at least never respond to all to much, that I think would be great for VW type content. If RNG is screwing you long enough it eventually adds up to giving you the item anyways. Making people go 1/1 while others go 1/300 is stupid in game design, but so is closing off content to half of the players due to their personal time constraints or inability to play a game at certain times. Neither should be acceptable in game design, all content should be available to all players, and everyone should stand an equal chance at acquiring things, while if given enough time you can get whatever you wish, and luck still gets to play its part up to a point.

You might get sick of me referencing XIV, but if it weren't due to the fact that that game is virtually this game with enhanced graphics, I wouldn't be (nor would I have a frame of reference). And before anyone says "That's a different game, it's irrelevant here!" - give me a chance to say that I'm only trying to figure out where SE and major MMO developers are trying to go with this design philosophy. It isn't just about this game. Everything I've tried to cover up to this point was just a stepping stone to get to a bigger picture.

And that bigger picture is why do we need this approach? Does SE really care about what you want, (yes, you), or are they really only trying to please the casual crowd (majority?) in order to get more subs? Can it work? Should it work? Where do the people who enjoy a real challenge going to end up?

[Eyeballed]

And by the way Demon, SE did implement something that resembles your point/ticket system on the primal fights in FF14. People complained also about spamming 100+ fights and getting no return, so what they did was put an item in the treasure coffer called an "Inferno Totem"; 10 of which could be traded in for one of the prized Ifrit weapons.

[Plasticleg]

This whole thread is an embarrassment.

You should be really sad for what you've done.

[Demon6324236]

And by the way Demon, SE did implement something that resembles your point/ticket system on the primal fights in FF14. People complained also about spamming 100+ fights and getting no return, so what they did was put an item in the treasure coffer called an "Inferno Totem"; 10 of which could be traded in for one of the prized Ifrit weapons.

Honestly how they should redo VW a little, that way its worth doing. Content without a definite reward dies out because people lose the will to participate in events they could be completely wasting their time on.

[Eyeballed]

This whole thread is an embarrassment.

You should be really sad for what you've done.

I'm saving the standard for multiplayer (MMO) video games. That, or desperately seeking out their salvation.

[cidbahamut]

I'm saving the standard for multiplayer (MMO) video games. That, or desperately seeking out their salvation.

No, at this point you are simply feeding your own ego. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Eyeballed]

No, at this point you are simply feeding your own ego. Nothing more and nothing less.

The purpose and function of a Discussion Forum is to, obviously, discuss. We make topics relevant to the subject and comment around that topic. We don't jump in from thread to thread tossing out personal attacks against people we don't agree with and then hop right back out again. Last I checked, my name was nowhere in the title of this thread, nor is it a part of the subject, either. Blocked. Bye.

[cidbahamut]

The purpose and function of a Discussion Forum is to, obviously, discuss.

You have made it abundantly clear over the course of this thread that you have absolutely no intention of holding a constructive discussion with anyone.



Blocked. Bye.

This is trolling.

[Demon6324236]

You have made it abundantly clear over the course of this thread that you have absolutely no intention of holding a constructive discussion with anyone.

As shown by the fact I have been having a civil conversation for the last few pages...

[Eyeballed]

Honestly how they should redo VW a little, that way its worth doing. Content without a definite reward dies out because people lose the will to participate in events they could be completely wasting their time on.

Honestly, any mob that carries a drop rate of less than 100% carries the RNG factor. Let's take the silly rabbit we all know and love as Jaggedy-Eared Jack for example: Reputed to have a horrible drop-rate for a an item with a highly-situational purpose that isn't worth the pixels its printed on otherwise. Yet, people still camp(ed) it, once an hour killing 3 little rabbits around the OP in hopes to get this piece of gear. More importantly than this is the actual amount of time that can possibly lapse before he actually spawns given you're killing the PH every 5min.

The relation to our RNG woes is that this mob is easily accessible and easily defeated for very, very little chance at a generously modest reward. Yet, people do it. I do it and have known people to do it. There is no guarantee of anything - not even a stinking rabbit hide, and in this case it's almost guaranteed that you won't get the drop, ever.

But people do, for the reason I believe to be because of the extremely low drop-rate. Now, imagine if this NM was not a lottery pop and was rather a timed spawn on a CD of 10min...

Infamy? Gone. Mystery? Gone. Item Value? Gone. Feeling of achievement? Gone.

The waiting is the hardest part, but it is absolutely necessary in building up the tension for a worthwhile event to come. Does it need to be as long as it's been in the past? No, it doesn't. Does it need to be shortened to the point where the only negative side that remains is the drop-rate itself? Here you go folks, your new, single-mob, mindless gear-grind.

[FrankReynolds]

Honestly, any mob that carries a drop rate of less than 100% carries the RNG factor. Let's take the silly rabbit we all know and love as Jaggedy-Eared Jack for example: Reputed to have a horrible drop-rate for a an item with a highly-situational purpose that isn't worth the pixels its printed on otherwise. Yet, people still camp(ed) it, once an hour killing 3 little rabbits around the OP in hopes to get this piece of gear. More importantly than this is the actual amount of time that can possibly lapse before he actually spawns given you're killing the PH every 5min.

The relation to our RNG woes is that this mob is easily accessible and easily defeated for very, very little chance at a generously modest reward. Yet, people do it. I do it and have known people to do it. There is no guarantee of anything - not even a stinking rabbit hide, and in this case it's almost guaranteed that you won't get the drop, ever.

But people do, for the reason I believe to be because of the extremely low drop-rate. Now, imagine if this NM was not a lottery pop and was rather a timed spawn on a CD of 10min...

Infamy? Gone. Mystery? Gone. Item Value? Gone. Feeling of achievement? Gone.

The waiting is the hardest part, but it is absolutely necessary in building up the tension for a worthwhile event to come. Does it need to be as long as it's been in the past? No, it doesn't. Does it need to be shortened to the point where the only negative side that remains is the drop-rate itself? Here you go folks, your new, single-mob, mindless gear-grind.

People camped that thing for the item. Not for fun. Most people who did it, hated it. They endured that crap fest of a monster because it had something they wanted. Argus is still available if you like that sort of thing.

The item doesn't become any less useful or desired when you remove the crappy drop / spawn conditions. It just becomes more available.

Sense of achievement should come from killing / being part of a team capable of killing said NM in a expeditiousness manner.

Just being the guy who happened to be standing around when the monster popped is not an achievement.

[Luvbunny]

People camped that thing for the item. Not for fun. Most people who did it, hated it. They endured that crap fest of a monster because it had something they wanted. Argus is still available if you like that sort of thing. Just being the guy who happened to be standing around when the monster popped is not an achievement.

Indeed, but yet if you look at the main thread, there is another poster created a thread asking for HNM to be brought back in the next expansion.... I really fail to see what accomplishment or skill one has by being at the right place at the right time. You are just lucky - and yet EVERYONE hates the luck based mechanic of this game. So if it does not benefits you in person, it is ok to hate, that seems the mentality of the majority. Personally most of the old school contents are pretty much luck based - you either get lucky with the drops, or die die die try again.

[Eyeballed]

People camped that thing for the item. Not for fun. Most people who did it, hated it. They endured that crap fest of a monster because it had something they wanted. Argus is still available if you like that sort of thing.

The item doesn't become any less useful or desired when you remove the crappy drop / spawn conditions. It just becomes more available.

Sense of achievement should come from killing / being part of a team capable of killing said NM in a expeditiousness manner.

Just being the guy who happened to be standing around when the monster popped is not an achievement.

Repeatedly, incessantly, until such time? As when?

Isn't continually pounding out the same NM into oblivion in order to progress the same game I'm trying to get back, just re-packaged in single-mob form?

And to be fair, I didn't say anything about a random person happening upon the mob. I said camped, for a very specific reason.

[Meyi]

You have made it abundantly clear over the course of this thread that you have absolutely no intention of holding a constructive discussion with anyone.

My big post of what I like about Abyssea never got addressed... ; ~ ;

[Eyeballed]

I'm not going to read through 30-some pages to try and find the answer to this, so I would greatly appreciate it if your next post could list every reason why you would like to see EXP parties return and Abyssea parties be removed from the game. In exchange I will list every reason why we should not return to old EXP parties.

Sorry Meyi, though I will admit the giant wall of text was a bit off-putting.

RE Fast EXP: Considering this approach, do you believe the game should start at cap for all new characters?

RE Equality: It's my belief that, as far as the grind goes, that some jobs were more favored over others but by no means were the desire/need for the others actually diminished. What I think GoV/Abyssea have done is destroy the individuality of said jobs. For instance, I preferred having a WHM > RDM playing my Ninja. I preferred inviting a SMN > BRD in Caedarva Mire. When fighting mobs that didn't spam AoE, I'd invite a BST in a heartbeat.

RE Strong Armor: Your definition of fun; I can't argue with that.

RE Diversity: I don't really recall a time when you needed anything much other than WHM, BLM, NIN, WAR, leveled specifically for subjob purposes. Sure there's odds, but most situations don't require many more than these. As far as, "Now people are willing to level their jobs for events", I say if you enjoyed the job you'd have few qualms about watching it grow at a slower pace. I know people who intentionally de-leveled their favorite jobs just to grind with them again (Before level sync).

RE Fun: See "Strong Armor".

RE Not held back by idiots: On the occasion you would get a really good example of how not to do things, but I'd offer a fair 5% of all the parties I was in to be so terrible no one cared to carry on. Even then, with a good leader things can be fixed with /kicks and reps. I will say that the person that just suddenly says "Good bye." with no warning really sucks, especially if they were the tank or main heal, and even more so if things were going great.

RE Camps aren't always full: I can say I ran into this problem even fewer times. Very few camps/areas are so restricted in mob counts to only support one group comfortably. Beastmasters were a painful reality at times, but it was little things like this that added an extra challenge. Fight for the mob! Fight for the EXP!

RE The game's a game again: I won't disagree and say that the game didn't have some harsh facets. The game used to be set in a perpetual "Super Hard Mode". I think the answer you and I both are looking for, (at least I am), is some compensation both ways. Sure, you're getting a lot accomplished, but what does it matter exactly how much you get accomplished in a game that doesn't end? The point is that you learn to enjoy it for the majority of what it has to offer and gracefully loathe the rest. That, or you just go outside.

[FrankReynolds]

Repeatedly, incessantly, until such time? As when?

Isn't continually pounding out the same NM into oblivion in order to progress the same game I'm trying to get back, just re-packaged in single-mob form?

Somewhat, but it doesn't exclude 99% of the whole server in the way that a world spawn does. Pounding an NM into oblivion can be done faster and with a higher success rate by more skilled players. I like the method they used on Empys personally. You need x number of drops to get this item. 1 per kill is guaranteed, so you know that no matter what happens, as long as you win, you will be 1 step closer. Then they add additional luck based items, but give you the ability to increase your odds through procs and treasure hunter. And the difference is noticeable like going from 30% chance to 80% chance. Unlike VW, where procs / cells only increase a 0% drop rate to a 0.03% drop rate. Guaranteed progression makes the luck part feel far less like a kick in the groin.

Claiming HNM is completely unaffected by skill. You have no influence on claiming beyond spamming a button and hoping for the best. The random claim block timer ensures that the first guy to hit his claim macro will get rejected and player number 5-6 will be the guy who actually claims it. There is nothing you can do about the random timer other than chain a bunch of bots together.

I know for a fact that on my server, there are a few shells who do exactly that. They load up their ls, then charge ridiculous prices. If no one wants to pay, they just drop the items on the floor so that you can't have them. They will slowly kill mobs to ensure that the windows stay staggered in a way that they can always have people there to claim every worthwhile NM. People have specifically posted that they intend to do that on these very forums. There are probably a couple of level one mules sitting at Tiamat as I write this.


[B]And to be fair, I didn't say anything about a random person happening upon the mob. I said camped, for a very specific reason.

I didn't mean that he was standing there on accident. I'm just pointing out that he didn't do anything. He was just standing there. Nothing to be proud of. Claiming = pushing a button and hoping the random claim time picks you. Nothing to be proud of. Killing it? well you don't need random spawn times to have a good fight.

If they made instanced zones where people could hunt this crap, it would be fine. And I mean truly instanced. Not Group A reserves the zone and then Group B has to sit outside thumb in butt. I mean where group A and Group B are in separate zones with Separate monsters on separate timers.

If people are so bent on mobs that you can hardly ever fight, why not have something like stones, that you only get once a month and can't get more of? Then people can only do the fight 12 times a year. Then the gear stays incredibly rare, and the normal people don't get screwed by the 37 bot mule guys.

[Eyeballed]

If they made instanced zones where people could hunt this crap, it would be fine. And I mean truly instanced. Not Group A reserves the zone and then Group B has to sit outside thumb in butt. I mean where group A and Group B are in separate zones with Separate monsters on separate timers.

Truly and seriously, if you haven't already you should play XIV. Every damned event worth doing is locked in an instance, timed and laid out just as you specified.

(Not that you can, really. They're locking all servers for 2.0 Beta soon.)

[Trisscar]

Truly and seriously, if you haven't already you should play XIV. Every damned event worth doing is locked in an instance, timed and laid out just as you specified.

Why should we play FFxiv what should be available in FFxi?

[Meyi]

RE Fast EXP: Considering this approach, do you believe the game should start at cap for all new characters?

No. I enjoy the satisfaction of watching the "Level Up!" animation flash on my screen. I'm just not as eager to take 6~12 months to see the final one flash for my job, that's all. The more times it flashes, the happier I feel. Also, if we started at cap then people who wanted to level oldschool wouldn't have that option. I met a lot of my friends through leveling and partying with them, and having exp parties taken out of the game completely would destroy a huge social aspect of the game.

I still make friends in Gusgen Mines and Abyssea parties, so it's not as if these two strategies destroy that. In fact, I notice people are more willing to chat now because it's not as stressful and monsters require less focus.


RE Equality: It's my belief that, as far as the grind goes, that some jobs were more favored over others but by no means were the desire/need for the others actually diminished. What I think GoV/Abyssea have done is destroy the individuality of said jobs. For instance, I preferred having a WHM > RDM playing my Ninja. I preferred inviting a SMN > BRD in Caedarva Mire. When fighting mobs that didn't spam AoE, I'd invite a BST in a heartbeat.

You're definitely a unique individual then. Having played all of those jobs you just listed (excluding NIN past 49), I can assure you such a trend was extremely unheard of. White Mages were nice to have pre-ToAU and pre-merits (excluding King Ranperre's Tomb), but with the addition of ToAU became obsolete. I remember one colibri merit party I was in, as white Mage, commenting on how surprised they were that I could keep up. At first I was shocked because I had never heard of any party not having a White Mage, but later on upon leveling Bard realized that Red Mages were the only way to go.

Summoners were laughed at unless it was a Summoner only party, or later on Astral Flow burn. Bards were the delicious candy everyone wanted, and I had had many parties with 2 or even 3 Bards in them. Beastmaster was best to solo, and really any Beastmaster that leveled in a party usually didn't know how to actually play the job. All they knew was how to summon a jug and attack a monster.

I actually have a humoring story to share about an Optical Hat fight I did with a Beastmaster who leveled via parties, but that would stretch out this post even longer than it will be. Regardless, it's funny, and the community used to laugh at party Beastmasters just like many people today laugh at burned jobs.


RE Strong Armor: Your definition of fun; I can't argue with that.

Hm? Not quite sure about that summary. Yes, I enjoy being able to obtain strong armor by myself or with a few friends.


RE Diversity: I don't really recall a time when you needed anything much other than WHM, BLM, NIN, WAR, leveled specifically for subjob purposes. Sure there's odds, but most situations don't require many more than these. As far as, "Now people are willing to level their jobs for events", I say if you enjoyed the job you'd have few qualms about watching it grow at a slower pace. I know people who intentionally de-leveled their favorite jobs just to grind with them again (Before level sync).

Again few and far-between. I could never delevel my Black Mage just to level it up again. I'd rather make another character and level it from scratch (like I already did with Meyi :)). And it's true, you didn't need different jobs back then, but now you do! At least for Voidwatch. But even aside from Voidwatch all jobs are welcome to Abyssea. Sure some jobs are desired more than others (BLM/BRD, BLU/NIN, WHM/RDM, THF, WAR) but I've never seen anyone excluded from coming just because their main job wasn't one of those desired ones.

And believe it or not, there are many wonderful job/sub combinations that people have laughed at over the years. I used to love going RDM/BST and soloing out in sky. I was very fast and efficient. Even to this day people laugh when I comment on the combination and that's how I know who was a part of the old Beastmaster community and who wasn't.


RE Fun: See "Strong Armor".

Which is true. Thank you for acknowledging that. Though if you would like to point out what you find fun/don't find fun with the previous/current issues, you're more than welcome to add that here.

All I can add on to this is FFXI of the past really felt like a job to me. End game literally sent me to a state of depression after a few days of attending it. I'm not sure if it was the negativity of players towards one another (even in shell), the backstabbing, insults, and high expectations of everyone, or the grueling boredom of slaying the same monsters day after day and not being allowed to lot anything because my leader either had a vendetta against me or someone else deserved it more.

Now I am very happy. I love the game. I love my friends. I love being able to contribute and spend as much time (or as little) as I want in game!


RE Not held back by idiots: On the occasion you would get a really good example of how not to do things, but I'd offer a fair 5% of all the parties I was in to be so terrible no one cared to carry on. Even then, with a good leader things can be fixed with /kicks and reps. I will say that the person that just suddenly says "Good bye." with no warning really sucks, especially if they were the tank or main heal, and even more so if things were going great.

Urgh. Lots of idiots in this game. I think that's the one thing keeping me from wanting to play it all day, every day. There were a lot of leaders who didn't want to lead, just wanted to gather six people together and get exp. Totally understandable since I too hate leading and refuse to do it. Do you remember the time for the trend of "disconnecting" to escape bad parties? Used to happen frequently, especially in the ToAU era.

And it's not like people really want to kick someone who sucks when it's their only tank or healer and there's none seeking around their level. It's a lose/lose situation....


RE Camps aren't always full: I can say I ran into this problem even fewer times. Very few camps/areas are so restricted in mob counts to only support one group comfortably. Beastmasters were a painful reality at times, but it was little things like this that added an extra challenge. Fight for the mob! Fight for the EXP!

No, I hate competition. It is one of my greatest displeasures in life. I will disband and leave before I camp on other people. I have morals, you know. I treat others how I would like to be treated; if I am there first, I would like access to the monsters I came for, and if they were there first, I will leave and grant them that respect. It's a game, meant to be fun, and it's not fun when I'm put in that kind of situation. So I leave!

And no, the most common camps were almost always crowded. Crowded past their capacity. If the parties were low level then the camp could usually fit two, maybe three, but if the party was close to the cap then usually one would be too much.

That's why Campsitarus (http://campsitarus.blogspot.com/) was created. Unfortunately a lot of people didn't want to try out half the camps listed there because they were "too far" or "too foreign", but this blog was a blessing back in its day. Obsolete now, but still fun to look back on and smile. Hell, sometimes I still use it to find monsters I can't remember the exact location to.


RE The game's a game again: I won't disagree and say that the game didn't have some harsh facets. The game used to be set in a perpetual "Super Hard Mode". I think the answer you and I both are looking for, (at least I am), is some compensation both ways. Sure, you're getting a lot accomplished, but what does it matter exactly how much you get accomplished in a game that doesn't end? The point is that you learn to enjoy it for the majority of what it has to offer and gracefully loathe the rest. That, or you just go outside.

I like compromises. I think there could be a way to bring back oldschool leveling, but by destroying our desired way you are not asking for a compromise, but for a complete control over how exp is gained. I don't think that's fair because not everyone finds a party of six entertaining. There has to be a way to make both choices entertaining for the people who desire each.

As for wanting to accomplish things in a game that never ends, I can see your point. The reason I play is to have something to set goals in and obtain them. Something fun. I can be social with friends, work on my own goals, or sit back and enjoy some beautiful story lines. This game has a lot to complete and everyone's objective is different. Some people (like me) really want to complete one job. Get the best armor they can for that job, do their best with that job, and feel a sense of satisfaction at having one thing complete. Other people just want to complete things like storylines and partake in events. Some people feel complete by having all jobs to 99. Some people feel complete by having Relics, Mythics, and/or Empyreans. And some people never feel completed at all. It really depends on the person.

Back to EXP parties, there are some things I cannot stand about them that would need to be fixed for me to return:
1. Lack of jobs our level. This was fixed with Level Sync, kind of, but there were people even then who refused to sync down below their level.
2. Targetting easier prey. Incredibly Toughs are just...hard. There's no reason we should bust our backs slaying a hard monster when we'd be much faster (and enjoyable) fighting easier prey (Even Match-Very Tough). This is a playerbase issue and I can't think of anything for Square Enix to do to fix this at the moment. They already made it more enticing with an EXP bonus to easier monsters.
3. Camp respect. Again a playerbase issue. I think Square Enix could consider modifying some camps to make them easier to gain access to/more appealing to players.
4. Equal speed EXP of GoV/Abyssea parties. For me to choose oldschool over newschool it's going to need to be as quick. Occasionally I may want to do an oldschool party for old time's sake, but never seriously. If it's going to become a serious option it needs to step up to the plate.
5. Level Sync gear sucks. I seldomly level sync below my level because of gear problems. I don't like that all of my positive attributes are severely butchered whereas all of my negative ones remain in tact. I'd like to see a possible storage option in the form of a quest where we bring the leveled armor to a NPC to store it and can later "recall" it as we level sync.
- For example, say I wanted to wear a Shaman's Cloak (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Shaman%27s_Cloak) for a level 56 party. I don't have the inventory to keep that laying around for "just in case I ever join a level sync party" and therefore would not have it for the party. My Goetia Coat+2 (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Goetia_Coat_+2) would be worthless at level 56. Therefore, for my proposal I'd like to see an NPC I could visit, trade a Shaman's Cloak to, and later "recall" that Shaman's Cloak into my Body Slot for the duration of the Level Sync party. This recall ability could require level sync status to be on to activate, I don't really care. I just don't have the inventory to lug around worthless armor I don't use at 99. But that said, I'd gladly recollect and store gear in advance to use at a later date for a synced party.
- If this is possible, it could be restricted to Level Sync parties only to prevent storage for capped BCNMs.
6. A way to deal with idiots that doesn't hinder my progression. I want some guarantee to not be affected by poor performance of other players. In Abyssea I can solo my EXP just fine. Hell, I can solo just fine outside of it too. And GoV parties are fast even with lots of gimps. But oldschool EXP parties are not fast at all with gimps. Therefore, there would need to be a way to weed out gimps without having to slow EXP or break the party. This is especially a concern when dealing with the tank and healer slots.

And lastly, don't be intimidated by my long posts. -smile- You wanted a discussion, I am having a discussion. I'm not the best at adequately expressing my thoughts in pithy sentences. I'd appreciate long responses as well so I can better understand your point of view and see where our differences lay.

[Arcon]

My big post of what I like about Abyssea never got addressed... ; ~ ;

I hate to argue on his side, but much of what you said was opinion or make-belief.

Equality was better than at 75, but still nowhere near there.

Diversity was entirely non-existant.

Strong armor was there but it's not an entirely good thing. That was what lead to much of the post-Abyssea depression. SE realized they couldn't keep that pace up without entirely breaking the game (many of those items are already broken, especially in combination), so when they lowered their standards in item creation again, everyone was disappointed.

You were still held back by idiots and even more so by assholes than you were at 75. It was a lot easier to be a dickhead in a highly competitive and popular zone like Abyssea. You said yourself you hated competition, and that was stronger felt than ever for casuals. Hardcore people had their HNM experience to guide them, so they were more familiar with it, but casuals were getting tired and upset with being outclaimed, people unwilling to team up, people claiming mobs when they went yellow and other dickishness like that. What was not an issue to a majority of them became a primary issue to many.

Camps aren't always full, that's true, but they rarely were at 75, at least not lately. I do remember having to relocate due to a full camp every now and then, but not enough to honestly say I felt any lasting impact of it at all. If someone asked me what I hated about EXP back then, this definitely wouldn't have come up. And when Abyssea did become popular sometimes they were full even then. You still struggly to get into a Dom Ops party even today at times.

About the game being a game "again": the game was a game before. It was a different kind of game, and one I personally preferred. It went from a slow-paced high-quality game where achievements and dedication mattered to a game which provided quick and fast low-quality entertainment. Abyssea was much like Mario Party 8 that way. It was casual, entertaining, required nearly zero commitment, but when you finished it, did you feel anything? Or was it another game to throw in the bucket while starting to realize that it was the same as countless other games before while coming to the conclusion that the Wii was a shitty investment?

[Meyi]

I hate to argue on his side, but much of what you said was opinion or make-belief.

Make belief, no. Opinion perhaps. I'm willing to take that into consideration.


Equality was better than at 75, but still nowhere near there.

Diversity was entirely non-existant.

Because of the past tense used here, I'm not entirely sure what time you're arguing for; do you mean the game now, or the game right as Abyssea came out, or before Abyssea?



You were still held back by idiots and even more so by assholes than you were at 75. It was a lot easier to be a dickhead in a highly competitive and popular zone like Abyssea. You said yourself you hated competition, and that was stronger felt than ever for casuals. Hardcore people had their HNM experience to guide them, so they were more familiar with it, but casuals were getting tired and upset with being outclaimed, people unwilling to team up, people claiming mobs when they went yellow and other dickishness like that. What was not an issue to a majority of them became a primary issue to many.

I understand.


Camps aren't always full, that's true, but they rarely were at 75, at least not lately.

The camps that were full were the merit camps because the majority of players who got to 75 didn't want to level another job up to 75 and instead wanted to better the job(s) they had at max level. Camps were very full before ToAU's addition. I can see the argument of camps remaining clear like they had at 75 as many people will still choose GoV and Abyssea over oldschool parties.


I do remember having to relocate due to a full camp every now and then, but not enough to honestly say I felt any lasting impact of it at all. If someone asked me what I hated about EXP back then, this definitely wouldn't have come up. And when Abyssea did become popular sometimes they were full even then. You still struggly to get into a Dom Ops party even today at times.

True. Abyssea had its congestion times too. Especially when it first came out and we only had the three zones, then the six, and the nine without the levels to tackle harder camps. Although, back at the introduction of Visions two parties could fit at a LaTheine worm party.

I don't know about Leviathan but on Bismarck Dom OPs are dead. We very rarely have EXP party shouts and when we do they're either on worms/frogs, vultures in Misareaux, or the occasional bugard group. And even rarer yet are cruor party shouts.


About the game being a game "again": the game was a game before. It was a different kind of game, and one I personally preferred. It went from a slow-paced high-quality game where achievements and dedication mattered to a game which provided quick and fast low-quality entertainment. Abyssea was much like Mario Party 8 that way. It was casual, entertaining, required nearly zero commitment, but when you finished it, did you feel anything? Or was it another game to throw in the bucket while starting to realize that it was the same as countless other games before while coming to the conclusion that the Wii was a shitty investment?

By calling it 'a game' I meant it is easy to turn on and turn off without feeling guilty. There used to be many snags in the previous version when it came to time. Dynamis could take up to four hours (and in my group usually did), ground kings had a 3 hour window, and several other events took time to gather people (like EXP parties) and get to camp. I can recall spending many hours standing and waiting for a monster to pop (like Tiamat) to get claim, or spending many hours trying to bring it down (Jormungand took several hours our first attempt). These were several hours of a day spent on one activity. And half the time said activity was standing around waiting for the game to start (waiting for pop, waiting for party to gather).

It's really not the fights themselves I had a qualm with. It was the exhaustion of going for so long with one single event. I haven't tried end game events (excluding Abyssea) since the Rage system was put into place, so maybe it's different now. I just remember kiting Kirin for hours on end, or griding my teeth as I stood by the Chocobo Stables in Dynamis - San d'Oria for four hours as leader pulled pops to us, or doing homework, bored out of my skull while I waited for the 30 minute window to reopen. I remember wanting to leave an exp party only to be guilted back into it because someone was "close to level" or there were no other healers. I remember a lot of waiting and standing around.

But with Abyssea the waiting around has been severely reduced. If someone wants to EXP, they can usually visit one of the hot spot camps, ask if there's a spot open (which there usually is unless it's a Japanese party) and jump in for fun. They can also leave and log out when they need to. If someone wants to farm a better piece of armor (i.e. +1 or +2) they can spend a couple of hours and either obtain it, or at least make a good dent in it. Dynamis has been pushed down to two hours (and is now a lot more enjoyable) and old 75 content doesn't take nearly as long to zerg down.

I have to say I highly disagree with the opinion that this game is now unrewarding. While it's true that the anticipation of collecting that rare gear was abolished by the introduction of Abyssea, people's spirits and determination to better their equipment sets were rekindled.

I'm sorry you don't feel the same level of satisfaction as you once did.

[Arcon]

Because of the past tense used here, I'm not entirely sure what time you're arguing for; do you mean the game now, or the game right as Abyssea came out, or before Abyssea?

During Abyssea. Before that, diversity was somewhat limited, but it always depended on the event. During the "Abyssea era" there was only one event, Abyssea. There was a period of about one year where nothing else was worth doing. And that event did not have a need for any job that didn't have TH, couldn't proc and wasn't WHM.


I don't know about Leviathan but on Bismarck Dom OPs are dead. We very rarely have EXP party shouts and when we do they're either on worms/frogs, vultures in Misareaux, or the occasional bugard group. And even rarer yet are cruor party shouts.

I thought they were dead, and maybe they are indeed. I didn't do EXP in a very long time, I only recently came there to fill up on merits after I decided to redesign my SMN a bit, and there were almost two full alliances on Sweepers. But I admit that that's the only experience I have to go on, so maybe it doesn't carry as much weight. But the only reason why Abyssea EXP camps wouldn't be congested is because most people are simply done EXPing, for good.


By calling it 'a game' I meant it is easy to turn on and turn off without feeling guilty.

That's precisely what I meant too. And that's perfectly valid game design. There are games that center around nothing but casual pleasure, and that's perfectly fine. I just didn't count FFXI as one of those games. For me FFXI was a project, I wasn't just playing a bit here and there, I was building my character and it actually felt like I was growing with him. I valued him. Now I don't. I'm not sure if Abyssea is the only thing to blame for this, but many of other factors I consider to be possible reasons can also be linked back to the Abyssea era (like decreasing population or death of other events).


But with Abyssea the waiting around has been severely reduced. If someone wants to EXP, they can usually visit one of the hot spot camps, ask if there's a spot open (which there usually is unless it's a Japanese party) and jump in for fun. They can also leave and log out when they need to. If someone wants to farm a better piece of armor (i.e. +1 or +2) they can spend a couple of hours and either obtain it, or at least make a good dent in it. Dynamis has been pushed down to two hours (and is now a lot more enjoyable) and old 75 content doesn't take nearly as long to zerg down.

I don't disagree with any of that. But what about the people who finished Abyssea in a month, what should they do? I can't just go out and get another +2, because all my +2 have been finished for over a year. It was very short-lived, an almost necessary drawback of being fast-paced, which many people considered a good thing. However, fast-paced game design doesn't work very well for MMORPGs. It does make them more entertaining in the short run, but such a pace is almost impossible to sustain, which, in turn, is what lead to the aforementioned post-Abyssea depression.


I have to say I highly disagree with the opinion that this game is now unrewarding. While it's true that the anticipation of collecting that rare gear was abolished by the introduction of Abyssea, people's spirits and determination to better their equipment sets were rekindled.

Very true, but that was just as short-lived as Abyssea itself, because it was all it had to offer. Even empyrean weapons are just a small extension of that.


I'm sorry you don't feel the same level of satisfaction as you once did.

That's kind of arguing semantics now, but I do feel satisfaction. It's just of a different kind. I do things differently, I do a lot solo and I farm a lot, but it's more of a pastime. I don't look forward to the next LS Ouryu run a week from now anymore, or sea/sky god runs or Proto-Omega/Ultima. Admittedly, Legion and Neo-Einherjar have kinda rekindled that old flame, but it doesn't burn as strong as it once did. It just doesn't feel as epic as it did before.

Regardless, all I wanted to say is that Abyssea often gets sugar-coated, especially by such overly enthusiastic people like Luvbunny, who completely ignore anyone else's opinion and just spill out Abyssea-praise like a broken candy machine. It had its ups and downs. Its ups were, among others, leveling the playing field for Lv99 content, more accessible gameplay as well as easier EXP gain for the lazy bums that most of us are. Which, sadly, brings us back to this particular discussion.

[Mirage]

You might get sick of me referencing XIV, but if it weren't due to the fact that that game is virtually this game with enhanced graphics, I wouldn't be (nor would I have a frame of reference).

FF14 is not "virtually this game with enhanced graphics". Very different stat systems, formulas, gear progressions, ability and spell progression. Much fewer classes/jobs, very different crafting system. The races and token finalfantasy mobs almost the only things that make the games seem similar.

And yes, I've played FF14 for about half of the time the game's been up and I have multiple lv50s (not that that's hard to get).

[Eyeballed]

FF14 is not "virtually this game with enhanced graphics". Very different stat systems, formulas, gear progressions, ability and spell progression. Much fewer classes/jobs, very different crafting system. The races and token finalfantasy mobs almost the only things that make the games seem similar.

And yes, I've played FF14 for about half of the time the game's been up and I have multiple lv50s (not that that's hard to get).

Virtually means to imply:

- You have PIE instead of AGI; No CHR.
- Bigger stat numbers, same function.
- Only cap gear matters; Lv50 weapon-hell.
- Spells are free/auto; Abilities come with level gain.
- Crafting is "interactive", meaning you put your mats in and press Enter repeatedly.

Anyhow, the common denominator I was going after is people can attain level cap in 19hrs and start endgame shortly thereafter. Honestly, with the right resources and enough Red Bull, it's entirely possible one can start a character, get level cap, go 4/4 on AF and still have enough time to run Ifrit Hyper a few times, within the first 24 hours. In fact, you might be right - 14 might just be a bit more silly.

[Mirage]

Pie doesn't really do agi's job at all, though, so in reality, we have neither agi nor dex in the game. Pie adds damage for ranged attacks, but not because it's an inhernetly physical stat like agi is. It is probably because they wanted a system where every class gets damage from one physical stat and one magical stat.

Additionally, one class/job can't equip more than one weapon, combat skills are much more shallow, you can't parry while holding a shield, for example, because only great axes let you parry, for some unknown reason. The combo system leads to a very rotation-heavy game, which also is a contrast to FF11, at least for most of FF11s classes.

Outside of the visual style and traditional monsters, I don't think FF14 is the same as FF11 more than FF14 is the same as for example WoW.

[Eyeballed]

Additionally, one class/job can't equip more than one weapon, combat skills are much more shallow, you can't parry while holding a shield, for example, because only great axes let you parry, for some unknown reason. The combo system leads to a very rotation-heavy game, which also is a contrast to FF11, at least for most of FF11s classes.

Don't get me started on that game's combat system. Also, for some strange reason, they removed Shell and Water (nuke) from the game. ...

[Eric]

Anyhow, the common denominator I was going after is people can attain level cap in 19hrs and start endgame shortly thereafter. Honestly, with the right resources and enough Red Bull, it's entirely possible one can start a character, get level cap, go 4/4 on AF and still have enough time to run Ifrit Hyper a few times, within the first 24 hours. In fact, you might be right - 14 might just be a bit more silly.
Wow. I'm not sure of how true this is, but unless there is a good chunk of endgame content, FFXIV really sounds like it's still lacking stuff.

I played at the game's release for a week or so, and I can say that there are a lot of fundamental game mechanics that I'm not really happy with, even though there are some things that I wish FFXI had/could have.

[Eyeballed]

"Taken from the Official Forums - A wonderful post by Darshu Warshoes of Selbina that I thought deserved further exposure..."

I really don't understand what goes on inside one's mind when they completely ignore the journey for some benefit in the end. The journey is dynamic, it changes, it tells a story. The end is static, repetitive. If you switch those two up, it happens precisely what this post complains about. People do not care about enjoying a good meal everyday, because they want to live the end of their lives now, and the faster way to do it is not spending any more than 5 minutes eating their food. Fuck it if it's not healthy or enjoyable, I don't give a shit about food being enjoyable, they will say.

This affects modern society as a whole and it could not be different when that same society plays games. People are just anxious for something in the end, so anxious in fact that they do not realize how enjoyable getting there can be. The biological pace personal to each individual might affect it but I believe that it is also mostly some result of education, culture and life experiences. Society changed as a whole to this new style of "get there as fast as possible" and we can still see the disparity between city folk and country folk in that regard.

So as long as we continue to live like this, consuming frenetically, it's very unlikely that gamer's minds will change and prefer to consume little for higher gain instead of a billion mobs per second.

I personally enjoyed FFXI battles way more than any other MMO I've played, and only there could you clearly see when a party was doing it's job right and when it wasn't. Not only things could go completely wrong when someone did not know their job right, but even a party that survived could earn exp incredibly slower than an excellent party. And it never stopped the game from having even stronger boss creatures that required an even greater amount of people, and even greater skill. That's what I miss in this game, where every little thing you can do affects the game ever so slightly, but in doing it right and using all you got, in the end the difference becomes enormous.

Fighting multiple enemies is something I've always wanted after I played XI, because every other FF did that, and I thought it would be a great idea. But it doesn't seem to work on a MMO style of gameplay.

Far from wanting the game to be a hassle, I want it to be enjoyable all the way through, and not just at the end. Fighting is a big part of any Final Fantasy game, and it should be as enjoyable as it possibly can. The way it is now is not, by any standard, enjoyable. Even those who prefer it like it is do so because it gets them to what they perceive as "enjoyable" much faster. And it's even crazier when the end game right now is so limited you can be doing nothing new in a month, so why the hell rush it?

I think the analogy fast food vs high cuisine is good, but not quite perfect. It would be more like fast food vs what the Brazilian said, a decent balanced home cooked meal, that takes you time to do it, but it's way more beneficial and rewarding. It can't just reward your tastes, it needs to get you through the day, too :P And neither junk food nor 20g of rare expensive mushrooms can do that.

Square needs to show gamers it can actually be fun to level up and play, because as it is now, it will be hard to convince any one to slow down and enjoy.

[FrankReynolds]

During Abyssea. Before that, diversity was somewhat limited, but it always depended on the event. During the "Abyssea era" there was only one event, Abyssea. There was a period of about one year where nothing else was worth doing. And that event did not have a need for any job that didn't have TH, couldn't proc and wasn't WHM.

I thought that sucked at first too, because that meant I had to go BLM to everything. Then I found out that I could just level the other jobs within a few weeks. In the past you were looking at several months of leveling a job for one event an unless the job you leveled was bard, you would probably need to level a different job for the next event.


I thought they were dead, and maybe they are indeed. I didn't do EXP in a very long time, I only recently came there to fill up on merits after I decided to redesign my SMN a bit, and there were almost two full alliances on Sweepers. But I admit that that's the only experience I have to go on, so maybe it doesn't carry as much weight. But the only reason why Abyssea EXP camps wouldn't be congested is because most people are simply done EXPing, for good.

I found that when I started leveling Sam on this character, right before abyssea came out, that there were already very few people exping, and the ones who were were levelsync /PL parties at birds in the past. There was almost nothing going on in between 37-75 going on on my server. Even for a SAM. Every server is different I guess.


That's precisely what I meant too. And that's perfectly valid game design. There are games that center around nothing but casual pleasure, and that's perfectly fine. I just didn't count FFXI as one of those games. For me FFXI was a project, I wasn't just playing a bit here and there, I was building my character and it actually felt like I was growing with him. I valued him. Now I don't. I'm not sure if Abyssea is the only thing to blame for this, but many of other factors I consider to be possible reasons can also be linked back to the Abyssea era (like decreasing population or death of other events).

I see it now as leveling several jobs and gearing them has replaced leveling 1 job and gearing it. I think those other events will come back to some degree, but should they really continue to be as popular as new material? During the year or so of level cap increases, adjusting old events would have been a huge time sync for the dev fellas. They basically just let em die for a small period and then went back to work once everyone was at cap again.


I don't disagree with any of that. But what about the people who finished Abyssea in a month, what should they do? I can't just go out and get another +2, because all my +2 have been finished for over a year. It was very short-lived, an almost necessary drawback of being fast-paced, which many people considered a good thing. However, fast-paced game design doesn't work very well for MMORPGs. It does make them more entertaining in the short run, but such a pace is almost impossible to sustain, which, in turn, is what lead to the aforementioned post-Abyssea depression.

I feel like the people who finished abyssea in a month should do the same thing they did before abyssea. Keep doing it anyways, and sell the drops. The people who finished abyssea in a month were the same ones selling sky / sea / limbus / HNM drops. That is the downfall of playing far more efficiently and for longer periods than the bulk of the players. It's lonely at the top. But, they get to build relics and do all the updated post abyssea stuff, while everyone else farms / buys that stuff from them.

[Luvbunny]

Regardless, all I wanted to say is that Abyssea often gets sugar-coated, especially by such overly enthusiastic people like Luvbunny, who completely ignore anyone else's opinion and just spill out Abyssea-praise like a broken candy machine. It had its ups and downs. Its ups were, among others, leveling the playing field for Lv99 content, more accessible gameplay as well as easier EXP gain for the lazy bums that most of us are. Which, sadly, brings us back to this particular discussion.

How can you refuse such a delicious sugared coated candy treat filled with honey and marshmallow? Mooooooore abyssea crack please and any abyssea flavored events!!! While I can see your points there, I never once missed the fake entitlement or grindy looooooong events that is nothing but boredom and a royal pain to set up and complete for very little rewards. I am very glad that SE decided to go to the modern way of Abyssea. I like Meiyi's opinion better, it is valid, and touched many subjects that is now. There are so many post abyssea events, and each one of those has very very very low drop rate just like the good old days, and yet I saw many posters complaining that this is not right blah blah blah. So whichever ways SE swing, it will always be wrong. I have no problems with all the events after abyssea - they are fun diversions with good sidegrade gears, and does not take a very long time to complete. Plus there are all kinds of variety too, from hard to easy. If anything the game is a lot more fun since the introduction of Abyssea. It makes the developers to have to work their ass off to create contents after contents after contents, they CAN NO LONGER rest on their laurels and have to keep up with the demands and have to measure up to abyssea.

[Camiie]

Ultimately the real reason they considered Abyssea a failure wasn't because of balance. It was because it would cause them more work. It's not something they can just set and forget for the next few years while relying on the gambler's mentality to keep people playing through stupidly low drop rates (VW) or even more stupidly low chance of success (Neo-Nyzul).

It was awesome for a large chunk of the players, but not so awesome for an SE online division that's built to just plop some mobs down and coast along. As usual, the interests of the devs were placed far higher than the interests of the players. That's why we can't all have nice things, and while the MMO with the Final Fantasy name never quite reached a Final Fantasy level of success.

[Luvbunny]

Ultimately the real reason they considered Abyssea a failure wasn't because of balance. It was because it would cause them more work. It's not something they can just set and forget for the next few years while relying on the gambler's mentality to keep people playing through stupidly low drop rates (VW) or even more stupidly low chance of success (Neo-Nyzul).

Thanks Camiie, finally someone who understand the real issue of Abyssea, and also why it is a massive blockbuster success. We pay monthly fees, developers should really work hard at emulating the success of Abyssea and try to sustain it, instead of giving us a bunch of stupid ideas like 1500 HMP, idiotic new 2 hours, etc... All these old schoolers seems to forget how menial content updates were in the dark ages of 2003-2007, barely nothing to get excited while everyone else were in the never ending grindfests. Abyssea finally gave everyone a chance at obtaining something if they put some works toward - but not utterly ridiculous amount of works.

[Arcon]

Thanks Camiie, finally someone who understand the real issue of Abyssea, [..]

Everyone did. It was not a secret. Ironically, you're the only one who doesn't seem to get it, as demonstrated by the rest of your post.


[..] and also why it is a massive blockbuster success.

That is not at all what Camiie said. It's also not true. You're just trying to promote your agenda again.


We pay monthly fees, developers should really work hard at emulating the success of Abyssea and try to sustain it [..]

See, that's what I meant. You have no idea at all why they considered Abyssea a mistake. Your entire argument is that SE is malvolent and doesn't want to provide entertaining content or that they don't know what people want. But the issue with Abyssea is (as Camiie pointed out correctly) that Abyssea-like content is hard to maintain, for two reasons. First of all, people plow through it too easily and quickly. They'd have to release more content like that every three months, forever, to maintain that level of satisfaction, which is impossible to do. The key behind any MMORPG is to find a balance between entertaining and drawn-out content, to keep people satisfied at a pace that is sustainable for developers. Abyssea fulfilled the former (to some degree) but not the latter.

The second reason is that fast-paced content approaches a limit faster than slower content does (logically). The best example for that is gear. People like to bring up Abyssea gear as one of its strong points, but that pace would ultimately lead to a dead end for gear. If you keep overpowering gear like that, not only does it get harder to release new gear (after all, how do you improve a Haste +25% leg piece?), but also creates balance issues for older content. Basically, every time you release new gear like that, all previous content would not only be imbalanced, because it was not designed to be cleared by players with such stats, but also unnecessary to do in the first place, because the gear from it is not worth it compared to the new one (also very strongly noticeable with Abyssea). That means that people would have to do the new content exclusively, because nothing else has no incentive to be done anymore. Which means the pressure would grow even bigger on SE to release completely new content more rapidly.

The point of it all is that such a pace is impossible to maintain. That was why they considered Abyssea a mistake. And here's what you obviously don't get: they're right. It was a mistake. That's not a matter of opinion. This does not mean that Abyssea wasn't "good" or that it wasn't "fun" or whatever other crap you will want to read into my words again. I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying that from a developer-viewpoint doing something like that was a bad business-decision. It upset the balance between entertainment and pacing too much to be manageable. You can say whatever you want about how much you liked it, how much fun it was and how special you've been feeling since it was released, it does not matter one bit. This is an entirely different argument.

[Eyeballed]

See, that's what I meant. You have no idea at all why they considered Abyssea a mistake. Your entire argument is that SE is malvolent and doesn't want to provide entertaining content or that they don't know what people want. But the issue with Abyssea is (as Camiie pointed out correctly) that Abyssea-like content is hard to maintain, for two reasons. First of all, people plow through it too easily and quickly. They'd have to release more content like that every three months, forever, to maintain that level of satisfaction, which is impossible to do. The key behind any MMORPG is to find a balance between entertaining and drawn-out content, to keep people satisfied at a pace that is sustainable for developers. Abyssea fulfilled the former (to some degree) but not the latter.

The second reason is that fast-paced content approaches a limit faster than slower content does (logically). The best example for that is gear. People like to bring up Abyssea gear as one of its strong points, but that pace would ultimately lead to a dead end for gear. If you keep overpowering gear like that, not only does it get harder to release new gear (after all, how do you improve a Haste +25% leg piece?), but also creates balance issues for older content. Basically, every time you release new gear like that, all previous content would not only be imbalanced, because it was not designed to be cleared by players with such stats, but also unnecessary to do in the first place, because the gear from it is not worth it compared to the new one (also very strongly noticeable with Abyssea). That means that people would have to do the new content exclusively, because nothing else has no incentive to be done anymore. Which means the pressure would grow even bigger on SE to release completely new content more rapidly.

110% Agree. Well put.

[Luvbunny]

That is not at all what Camiie said. It's also not true. You're just trying to promote your agenda again.

Not trying to promote agenda here, but getting kinda sick and tired dealing with blame abyssea for everything that is wrong in the game, the same crap that happened when ToAU came about, with blame everything on collibri for everything that was wrong at the time. Personally I think they did OK with contents created after Abyssea, not all are perfect but so far they are giving players options to do, and gears are marginally better than the Abyssea versions. The fact remains that Abyssea exists, and wether they like it or not - every new things that will come out will have to be balanced against Abyssea content and playstyle. At least now there are myriad of options for players to do, from easy mode to hard mode - and all of them are accessible from the get go - that ultimately what made Abyssea so great - it forced the developers to consider creating content that is FUN, ACCESSIBLE and ADDICTIVE.

[Camiie]

To be fair, I wasn't defending SE at all. Just the opposite really. I think they and other P2P MMO developers are far too lazy and complacent when it comes to producing and maintaining content and SE especially cuts far too many corners . I know, I know spoken like a true customer with no perspective on what it's like to be a game developer, but still I wish they'd find a better way to do things than 0.1% drop rates and 6 degrees of randomness.

[Demon6324236]

To be fair, I wasn't defending SE at all. Just the opposite really. I think they and other P2P MMO developers are far too lazy and complacent when it comes to producing and maintaining content and SE especially cuts far too many corners . I know, I know spoken like a true customer with no perspective on what it's like to be a game developer, but still I wish they'd find a better way to do things than 0.1% drop rates and 6 degrees of randomness.

Don't forget reusing the same areas and mobs for content (WotG, Abyssea, Add-ons, Neo-Blahblah) except with color changes here and there on occasion.

[Luvbunny]

Don't forget reusing the same areas and mobs for content (WotG, Abyssea, Add-ons, Neo-Blahblah) except with color changes here and there on occasion.

Yup, even the gears are exactly the same lol, with newly revised stats. I have to say that they did produce tons of new contents in 2011-2012, true none of these are completely original and brand new, but at least they are giving players a few options that is not easy mode abyssea. Though as you can see in the other posting - those so called "old school" contents are not exactly getting tons of warm welcome lol. Legion and Neo blahblah are good examples of two new contents that draw very little interests from the players. Good thing that the gears are marginally better, so that the majority do not have to feel left out and give the minority a feeling of "extra special fairy pixie dust of precious snowflakes" that they crave so much. Even the new pixie dust weapons have "afterglow" - just in case you are not already special for completing them. So in the end - they at least try to give us options, yet still all these so called abyssea haters flaming every thread with torches and sign asking for the "old school" feeling back. I mean, maybe they should do more Legions and Neo-blahblah instead :)

[Arcon]

So in the end - they at least try to give us options, yet still all these so called abyssea haters flaming every thread with torches and sign asking for the "old school" feeling back. I mean, maybe they should do more Legions and Neo-blahblah instead :)

Don't confuse the anti-EXP crowd with the anti-Abyssea crowd. Those are entirely different concepts. I see a lot of anti-EXP rage here, but very little anti-Abyssea rage. That has all calmed down about one year ago, after everyone who hated Abyssea quit.

[Luvbunny]

The anti-EXP crowd seems to blame abyssea with everything - way too easy exp, leeching problems etc... even as you can get similar experience via GoV. It's basically boils down to the ones who want to get to 99 ASAP so they can do the endgame grind vs the ones who rather take leisurely stroll in xp but facing an uphill battle since they are in the minority category. One thing I wonder is why these people who love XP not using moblin maze monger? It eliminate camp problem, it's right there in lower jeuno, 6 people means 6x30 mnts - quite challenging, fun, and fast paced, with decent rewards - and has been proven to give you more xp than the old school style party. There is another thread asking for MMM revival, maybe they should flock there.

[Sayomi]

No offense to some but if people like the way the game was you shouldn't shoot them down for it, I agree the game was alot better in the old days but they could have been improved with some of the stuff out now, and in some ways how the game is now its lacking elements of the past, we are lacking content that brings us all together and content that gives us a real sense of accomplishment, everything now is far too easy, and some elements of the past that was a sense of accomplishment have been brutally slain by re-vamps to the game.

I hope the new content has elements that give us a challenge and let us use our skills with certain jobs to give us the edge, as of right now battle content consists of throwing X amount of jobs into a blender with 1 mob and 1 pop location, not my idea of fun and many others as well, I think all people are really looking for in FFXI now is a challenege, lets take the training wheels off kids and really try to ride this bike.

[Eyeballed]

No offense to some but if people like the way the game was you shouldn't shoot them down for it, I agree the game was alot better in the old days but they could have been improved with some of the stuff out now, and in some ways how the game is now its lacking elements of the past, we are lacking content that brings us all together and content that gives us a real sense of accomplishment, everything now is far too easy, and some elements of the past that was a sense of accomplishment have been brutally slain by re-vamps to the game.

I hope the new content has elements that give us a challenge and let us use our skills with certain jobs to give us the edge, as of right now battle content consists of throwing X amount of jobs into a blender with 1 mob and 1 pop location, not my idea of fun and many others as well, I think all people are really looking for in FFXI now is a challenege, lets take the training wheels off kids and really try to ride this bike.

It bothers me that a lot of people defend their argument with "Oh, that's no accomplishment!; Let me tell you what a real accomplishment is..."

[Luvbunny]

Sense of accomplishment is different from player to player. As it is now the game has myriad of options for all kind of gamers from the hardcore to the casuals. There are quite a few hardcore contents that are challenging, even though those same people are complaining that the only solution is zerging or cheating hacks and not much options when it comes to strategy. As for the casual, abyssea is a great place to test your battle prowess and being able to solo NMs there is quite satisfying, wether you use the best atmas or forgo all atmas + cruor buffs for extra crispy challenge is up to you. There is also Walk of Echoes which is rather challenging on its own - though no ones seems to bother doing this. I think there are plenty of options now more than ever, but the majority still flocking abyssea and voidwatch like there is no tomorrow lol, at least in Bahamut server. And soon SE is adding more of this so called dungeon events with the burrow and play as monster.

[Sayomi]

It bothers me that a lot of people defend their argument with "Oh, that's no accomplishment!; Let me tell you what a real accomplishment is..." I never really suggested one, it would be nice to have one again, not impossible but not too easy, thats all. :-)

[Kikkyo]

Im completely against everything in the OP.

I am however in favor of SE adding a new "Old School" or "Vanilla" server, where the level cap is 75 and everyone on it has to start from scratch, and it has all content up to Abyssea and the first level cap increase. Someone should make a new thread about this.

This is something I wouldn't mind. I've always liked the old way of leveling/playing because it seemed easier to socialize and make friends and people were generally much more willing to help lower level players, while at the same time missions and endgame could be very challenging with a much higher sense of accomplishment; both things I loved about this game.

Today's playerbase is aged though. We've got a ten year old game where the vast majority of the players have been through the leveling process time and time again, so even though I personally prefer the old FFXI to the current one, I can understand why changes were made. I doubt the things we thought 'weren't so bad' back then would be nearly as simple today even if the game had been left alone. More would have capped off their levels and not looked back, more would have quit over time, and it would have only become harder for newer players to access certain items and areas. I think the main problem here is that a lot of vocal players are unhappy that this game isn't in its heyday anymore, more so than what the devs are doing or have done to work around that and keep us logging on and enjoying the experience. Personally, I think it's awesome that we're getting a new expansion this late in.

Though yeah, it would be fun to be able to log on as a level 75 just as the old ls is gathering for, idk, sky... I just reactivated again after a good several months break so idek what old gear is even worth the effort anymore but that just used to be one of my favorite things - running up there with a full alliance to take on a kirin or two. I miss those days.

Edit; bleh it didn't reply with quote.

[Meyi]

(...) as of right now battle content consists of throwing X amount of jobs into a blender with 1 mob and 1 pop location(...)

And it's different than before how?

[Sayomi]

And it's different than before how? You couldn't kill most endgame at one point in the game with just zerging alone, is what i'm saying, remember the days of strategy and stun chains ect? Mindless zerging is fun and should still have a place but lets have some strats behind things as well is all i'm saying.

[Trisscar]

You couldn't kill most endgame at one point in the game with just zerging alone, is what i'm saying, remember the days of strategy and stun chains ect? Mindless zerging is fun and should still have a place but lets have some strats behind things as well is all i'm saying.

And communicating and prioritizing procs is not a strategy... Because?

[Arcon]

And communicating and prioritizing procs is not a strategy... Because?

Because neither communicating nor prioritizing procs is required.

[Trisscar]

Because neither communicating nor prioritizing procs is required.

You have a very piss poor understanding of what strategy is.




A strategy is a plan of action designed to achieve a specific goal. Strategy is all about gaining (or being prepared to gain) a position of advantage over adversaries or best exploiting emerging possibilities. As there is always an element of uncertainty about future, strategy is more about a set of options ("strategic choices") than a fixed plan. It derives from the Greek "στρατηγία" (strategia), "office of general, command, generalship".

Taken from one extreme, even simple, straight up zerg is a strategy. Taken from another, nothing we do involves strategy because we players always seek the path of least resistance so will pick the battle plan most likely to succeed with the least amount of effort.

[Arcon]

You have a very piss poor understanding of what strategy is.

I wasn't even talking about what a strategy is. Yes, communication and prioritizing of procs is a strategy. But neither of those things is required. Hence, a strategy is not required. That's what I said.

Also, I wasn't really agreeing with him, as there is current content that does require a strategy and a proper execution to work. I was just telling you what he meant by that. I know I should stop talking for people, it's a bad habit.

[Sayomi]

And communicating and prioritizing procs is not a strategy... Because? Are you joking or being serious I can't tell... You wan't real strategy? Take a look back when Odin from Einherjar first came out, that was just an example of real strategy and don't tell me something in response that your LS killed Odin while afk eating Papa Johns when it was first introduced. I'm really not trying to offend what you said although I understand where your coming from but cmon lol.

[Trisscar]

Are you joking or being serious I can't tell... You wan't real strategy? Take a look back when Odin from Einherjar first came out, that was just an example of real strategy and don't tell me something in response that your LS killed Odin while afk eating Papa Johns when it was first introduced. I'm really not trying to offend what you said although I understand where your coming from but cmon lol.

When Odin was introduced was a little before my time when I started doing endgame events, so I wouldn't know.

[Trisscar]

I wasn't even talking about what a strategy is. Yes, communication and prioritizing of procs is a strategy. But neither of those things is required. Hence, a strategy is not required. That's what I said.

Also, I wasn't really agreeing with him, as there is current content that does require a strategy and a proper execution to work. I was just telling you what he meant by that. I know I should stop talking for people, it's a bad habit.

Sorry for the misunderstanding Arcon.

[Sayomi]

When Odin was introduced was a little before my time when I started doing endgame events, so I wouldn't know. It's all good, alot of elements of the past were pretty hard but tons of fun, I loved watching linkshell after linkshell line up to die to cerberbus lol

[Trisscar]

It's all good, alot of elements of the past were pretty hard but tons of fun, I loved watching linkshell after linkshell line up to die to cerberbus lol

I liked die in a mess back when you could honestly expect to die in a mess.

[Smokenttp]

well im not gonna read trough 74 pages but since a thread like this is going on i will post this here to get soome visibility (since alot of people will probably let it pass if i just leave this like that) , i posted this : http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26797-Let-Producer-Matsui-Know-How-He-Should-Catch-Up-on-2-Years%21?p=353272&viewfull=1#post353272

on the official thread and i want to know the opinion of the people around here, i know some people wont agree with me but i am really curious on the opinions around that and i would like some serious feedback not basic things like: wow it just plain bad, or wow awesome i loved it. I wanna know why you think it sucked or found it awesome, i know i am not a dev but i m graduating as a game designer this year so this is pretty much good for me as well in my career so i want to know if i am being unreasonable or not. thanks for your understanding.

[FrankReynolds]

well im not gonna read trough 74 pages but since a thread like this is going on i will post this here to get soome visibility (since alot of people will probably let it pass if i just leave this like that) , i posted this : http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26797-Let-Producer-Matsui-Know-How-He-Should-Catch-Up-on-2-Years%21?p=353272&viewfull=1#post353272

on the official thread and i want to know the opinion of the people around here, i know some people wont agree with me but i am really curious on the opinions around that and i would like some serious feedback not basic things like: wow it just plain bad, or wow awesome i loved it. I wanna know why you think it sucked or found it awesome, i know i am not a dev but i m graduating as a game designer this year so this is pretty much good for me as well in my career so i want to know if i am being unreasonable or not. thanks for your understanding.

I know you didn't want this kind of response, but there is just way too much in that post to comment on all of it.

About half of it is good, and the rest i bad. If you break that up into separate posts, I'm sure people will be more willing to give feedback. I will say this though. They made exp way easier to get for a reason. The old methods of gaining exp never went away. All those people you see in gov / abyssea alliances leveling aren't going to go back to six man parties. They will just quit leveling new jobs. They only do it now because it is convenient.

[Smokenttp]

I know you didn't want this kind of response, but there is just way too much in that post to comment on all of it.

About half of it is good, and the rest i bad. If you break that up into separate posts, I'm sure people will be more willing to give feedback. I will say this though. They made exp way easier to get for a reason. The old methods of gaining exp never went away. All those people you see in gov / abyssea alliances leveling aren't going to go back to six man parties. They will just quit leveling new jobs. They only do it now because it is convenient.

thanks i will see if i can break it up, also i know is kinda of a hassle but mind telling whats you tought it was good and what it was bad tough?, also i know that people will strugle if the abyssea capped is raised and the damage is already done but before all this you had only 2 reasons to level up a job :
1- because it would be usefull in a engame event you wanted to join
2- because you liked how the job played
if people eventually need for the 1st reason they will still level up jobs altough job favoritism is not benefical and i recognize that but its part of the game, no one wanted smn in the past now its a must for the new zerging game to work. i know i might have been anoying about this stuff but i like this game alot and it pretty much saddens me that people will just skip 8 years of hard work that has been put into a game because things where made irrelevant(also i know that theres a way to make some things relevant again, limbus 2.0 was a tentative on that even tough ppl dont do it much it still there as an "end game" option again), but i kinda dislike that low and mid levels where made irrelevant in the process(and i know that alot of people will disagree with me here).

[Trisscar]

The main issue with the other post is where you state "Raise level entry for Abyssea to 70-75 to make old content relevant again". I'm sorry, but how is that going to help make old content relevant again? I simply don't see how the logic follows.

[Arcon]

About half of it is good, and the rest i bad. If you break that up into separate posts, I'm sure people will be more willing to give feedback.

That's the main issue with that post. There's so much in there that almost everyone will find something they don't agree with, so it's unlikely they'll like the post.

As for the EXP thing, you already said it, it's too late to do anything now. If you changed it back, every older player would have all their jobs leveled, but new players would struggle completely.

[Smokenttp]

The main issue with the other post is where you state "Raise level entry for Abyssea to 70-75 to make old content relevant again". I'm sorry, but how is that going to help make old content relevant again? I simply don't see how the logic follows.

well i should have been a bit more specific on that, the thing is that this ideia alone would actually accomplish nothing and defnitly would not help to make old content relevant again, but it does make sense with the other ideias implemented altoghter. Say the let aby cap on 30 , but decide to put back the cap on mission ,but alowing ppl to quest an item for removing the cap, people will just breeze trough it like the cap wasnt there and would pretty much be the same as it is today. with pretty much no reason whatsoever to have low/mid level equipments or even belive that used to exist those levels. dont get me wrong its not like i dont like to level up fast , but i do fell that its too fast, and thinking in the game as a whole it feels like theres something throw away.

[Plasticleg]

i've got it, eyeballed is rosina2.0

suddenly, it all makes sense

[scaevola]

Because neither communicating nor prioritizing procs is required.

It's kind of difficult to get to a level of throughput where these are not required without having spent a great deal of time on prior content from which you were unlikely to extract meaningful power upgrades from without communication and cooperation, though.

It's a little misleading to suggest these things aren't required at some point, even if you happen to sometimes luck into a pick-up kaggen run with enough geared folks to obliterate him in 30 seconds.

[Eyeballed]

i've got it, eyeballed is rosina2.0

suddenly, it all makes sense

Suddenly all of what makes sense?