To: Mr Akihiko Matsui

[Merton9999]

I find your horse/car analogy a bit flawed in that, why take a car when you could fly; why fly when you could take a rocket; why take a rocket when you could teleport? Where would it end? Start the game at cap so that it's NO LONGER AN RPG? Wake up!!

An analogy isn't flawed because your extension of it fails. I could just as easily claim you're suggesting we crawl with a broken leg to our level cap.

In any case I don't even think your extension fails. If SE offered a faster leveling method than Abyssea I'd gladly take it, just like I'd teleport to Disneyworld if I could. The reason is that I know when I get there that I'll enjoy the real experience I'm looking for.

That's what you're missing. Seal and +2 farming, empy farming, NNI, Neo-Dyna, VW and Legion all offer teamwork, challenge and growth opportunities that MMOs and RPGs are known for. But you're taking one aspect of the game that changed and looking at the rest of the rich complex experience with blinders on. The rest of the people I know who hated Abyssea leveling at first got over it quickly when they found the gaming experience they used to enjoy later in a better, more robust, more various system with more interesting fights and enemies.

[Merton9999]

Just asked a vet friend ingame what it's like in Voidwatch, and I quoted you as saying "It's just like the old grind parties". His reply was "Lies."

This all makes sense to me now. You literally haven't even tried what was added to the game that comprises the reason they made leveling so fast. I'm getting flashbacks to kids I used to tutor who have never been out of their home town and think the whole world is dull and scary.

[Eyeballed]

An analogy isn't flawed because your extension of it fails. I could just as easily claim you're suggesting we crawl with a broken leg to our level cap.

In any case I don't even think your extension fails. If SE offered a faster leveling method than Abyssea I'd gladly take it, just like I'd teleport to Disneyworld if I could. The reason is that I know when I get there that I'll enjoy the real experience I'm looking for.

That's what you're missing. Seal and +2 farming, empy farming, NNI, Neo-Dyna, VW and Legion all offer teamwork, challenge and growth opportunities that MMOs and RPGs are known for. But you're taking one aspect of the game that changed and looking at the rest of the rich complex experience with blinders on. The rest of the people I know who hated Abyssea leveling at first got over it quickly when they found the gaming experience they used to enjoy later in a better, more robust, more various system with more interesting fights and enemies.

So what you're saying is you want this game to be more "Adventure" than "RPG". God of War, Prince of Persia, hell even Zelda come to mind when all you're looking for are big fights and nice drops. That's not what this game is meant to be about, or any RPG for that matter.

[Demon6324236]

Just asked a vet friend ingame what it's like in Voidwatch, and I quoted you as saying "It's just like the old grind parties". His reply was "Lies."

What did you do in old grind parties? You killed the same kind of mobs over and over again for xp. What do you do in VW? You kill the same NM over and over again for a chance at gear. Both are grinds, both are similar, difference being that now its a bunch of zergs and procs, before it was a bunch of haste & cures, with TP spamming. You said you liked the grind, why not ask your friend if VW is a grind, because thats what most people see it as too, thats why its drops are complained about.

[Demon6324236]

So what you're saying is you want this game to be more "Adventure" than "RPG". God of War, Prince of Persia, hell even Zelda come to mind when all you're looking for are big fights and nice drops. That's not what this game is meant to be about, or any RPG for that matter.

Its not a RPG, nothing is a RPG simply by fact of leveling, this is whats called a "MMO" sound it out if need be, its ok, trust me, that is what this game is, not a RPG. Say what you will but its still FFXI, nothing changed except leveling went from slow & boring to fast & easy.

[Eyeballed]

What did you do in old grind parties? You killed the same kind of mobs over and over again for xp. What do you do in VW? You kill the same NM over and over again for a chance at gear. Both are grinds, both are similar, difference being that now its a bunch of zergs and procs, before it was a bunch of haste & cures, with TP spamming. You said you liked the grind, why not ask your friend if VW is a grind, because thats what most people see it as too, thats why its drops are complained about.

In VW, do you have a puller, tank, DD and healer? Is there a real threat of death/wipe? Nobody argued that it wasn't a grind. What you said was "It's just like the old grind parties". There's a difference. Learn it.


Its not a RPG, nothing is a RPG simply by fact of leveling, this is whats called a "MMO" sound it out if need be, its ok, trust me, that is what this game is, not a RPG. Say what you will but its still FFXI, nothing changed except leveling went from slow & boring to fast & easy.

It's not the FFXI I know. It's the FFXI you know.

[Mirage]

There is no real difference in spending hours to get stronger from base stats increasing, and spending hours to get stronger by gear stats increasing.

It's only different in your mind.

[FrankReynolds]

Just asked a vet friend ingame what it's like in Voidwatch, and I quoted you as saying "It's just like the old grind parties". His reply was "Lies."

It's very much the same. You get a big group of people together, you go to a camp, and you kill the same crap over and pover for hours. The more crap you kill, the higher level camps you can go to.

But you would know that if you ever did any of this stuff your complaining about.


So what you're saying is you want this game to be more "Adventure" than "RPG". God of War, Prince of Persia, hell even Zelda come to mind when all you're looking for are big fights and nice drops. That's not what this game is meant to be about, or any RPG for that matter.

Every RPG is different and you don't get to decide what is and isn't an RPG for the whole rest of the world. Whats more is that this game has three very important letters before the RPG that change everything. And even if they made this game into a first person shooter, it would have absolutely no bearing on your argument for shitty grinds that no one wants.

Edit: You keep saying that they changed the game that you paid for into something you don't like. I would like to point out that this is a subscription service. Don't like it? Don't pay. Do you pay for the channels that you don't like at your house instead of just the ones you like? Why don't you go post on telemundo's message boards and tell them they need to play nothing but english content, because you used to like channel 47 before they took it over with spanish stuff and you don't care what the millions of viewers they have now want? see how that works out.

[detlef]

Just asked a vet friend ingame what it's like in Voidwatch, and I quoted you as saying "It's just like the old grind parties". His reply was "Lies."
You guys are arguing with someone who has never done any sort of endgame content. He has never done Voidwatch. He's never done Legion. I'm actually wondering if he has done Dynamis, Limbus, or Einherjar.

In VW, do you have a puller, tank, DD and healer? Is there a real threat of death/wipe? Nobody argued that it wasn't a grind. What you said was "It's just like the old grind parties". There's a difference. Learn it.

In fact, I'm starting to even wonder if he leveled to 75 (even on another character). I don't think Eyeballed was around for colibri, or he certainly wouldn't even mention a real threat of death/wipe.

I'm starting to wonder if he is confusing FFXI for another game he used to play.

[FrankReynolds]

You guys are arguing with someone who has never done any sort of endgame content. He has never done Voidwatch. He's never done Legion. I'm actually wondering if he has done Dynamis, Limbus, or Einherjar.

In fact, I'm starting to even wonder if he leveled to 75 (even on another character). I don't think Eyeballed was around for colibri, or he certainly wouldn't even mention a real threat of death/wipe.

I'm starting to wonder if he is confusing FFXI for another game he used to play.

I've been thinking the same thing.

[Eyeballed]

It's very much the same. You get a big group of people together, you go to a camp, and you kill the same crap over and pover for hours. The more crap you kill, the higher level camps you can go to.

But you would know that if you ever did any of this stuff your complaining about.



Every RPG is different and you don't get to decide what is and isn't an RPG for the whole rest of the world. Whats more is that this game has three very important letters before the RPG that change everything. And even if they made this game into a first person shooter, it would have absolutely no bearing on your argument for shitty grinds that no one wants.

Oh, then if it's the same, then what seems to be the big deal? All I've heard about VW so far is "Hey, it's a GRIND, don't you like GRINDS??" And trust me, if you ask the devs, they will tell you that the order or priority in the game is: FF Title >> RPG >> MMO. Source (http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/06/09/e3-2012-a-chat-with-final-fantasy-xivs-naoki-yoshida/).

"As Yoshida put it, the game is an MMORPG, but it's an RPG before that, and a Final Fantasy game even before that."

[Eyeballed]

You guys are arguing with someone who has never done any sort of endgame content. He has never done Voidwatch. He's never done Legion. I'm actually wondering if he has done Dynamis, Limbus, or Einherjar.

In fact, I'm starting to even wonder if he leveled to 75 (even on another character). I don't think Eyeballed was around for colibri, or he certainly wouldn't even mention a real threat of death/wipe.

I'm starting to wonder if he is confusing FFXI for another game he used to play.

Starve for many arguments? So now I've not played the game. What does all this assumption amount to for you? And if I could prove every single point you made - where would we be then? Nowhere. Exactly.

[FrankReynolds]

Oh, then if it's the same, then what seems to be the big deal? All I've heard about VW so far is "Hey, it's a GRIND, don't you like GRINDS??" And trust me, if you ask the devs, they will tell you that the order or priority in the game is: FF Title >> RPG >> MMO. Source (http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/06/09/e3-2012-a-chat-with-final-fantasy-xivs-naoki-yoshida/).

"As Yoshida put it, the game is an MMORPG, but it's an RPG before that, and a Final Fantasy game even before that."

And this is his (and most of the other posters) idea of a Final Fantasy > RPG > MMORPG. Not yours. I'll repeat. Not yours. The people spoke and you are a dollar short and a day late. Your choice (and others like you) to quit was exactly what lead to the game being revamped in this way. We appreciate you voting with your wallet for our new leveling system, but we will not go back to the old one just because you have returned.

Making a thousand different threads about it is not going to convince them to remove a huge portion of content. On the contrary, they seem to keep making leveling easier and easier with every update.


Starve for many arguments? So now I've not played the game. What does all this assumption amount to for you? And if I could prove every single point you made - where would we be then? Nowhere. Exactly.

Because you are arguing against something that you don't know about, with people who do.

[Eyeballed]

And this is his (and most of the other posters) idea of a Final Fantasy > RPG > MMORPG. Not yours. I'll repeat. Not yours. The people spoke and you are a dollar short and a day late. Your choice (and others like you) to quit was exactly what lead to the game being revamped in this way. We appreciate you voting with your wallet for our new leveling system, but we will not go back to the old one just because you have returned.

Making a thousand different threads about it is not going to convince them to remove a huge portion of content. On the contrary, they seem to keep making leveling easier and easier with every update.



Because you are arguing against something that you don't know about, with people who do.

I've already stated back on page 2(?) when I quit the game. Nothing I say or you say can prove otherwise. Find a new argument.

[detlef]

Oh yeah you did say that. Now I don't have an explanation for your outlook. I'd be a lousy epidemiologist.

By the time you quit in 2010, people did colibri almost exclusively. Are you talking about a time before that where people fought ITs and rested between pulls?

[Eyeballed]

Slippery slope fallacy spotted.



False dichotomy spotted.



Poisoning the well spotted (again). By the way, you wouldn't happen to be a conspiracy theorist would you?

Oh? Is there a middle ground between us? I thought we already covered that "choice" thing.

[FrankReynolds]

I've already stated back on page 2(?) when I quit the game. Nothing I say or you say can prove otherwise. Find a new argument.

At no point did I suggest that you lied about quitting. You should have lied and said that you didn't quit though. A person saying "the game was so awesome back then that I left to play a different one!!! Let's make it back to the game that I quit!!!" just sounds ridiculous. Your argument would have made a lot more sense if you had quit after you went through abyssea (it still would have been dumb though).

[Eyeballed]

At no point did I suggest that you lied about quitting. You should have lied and said that you didn't quit though. A person saying "the game was so awesome back then that I left to play a different one!!! Let's make it back to the game that I quit!!!" just sounds ridiculous.

And at no point did I say I left this game because it sucked. Do you really always make things up as you go along hoping nobody will notice and see if it works out for the better? Jeez, man. What I did say is that "I quit 2 weeks before the release of FFXIV". Take it and run.

[FrankReynolds]

And at no point did I say I left this game because it sucked. Do you really always make things up as you go along hoping nobody will notice and see if it works out for the better? Jeez, man. What I did say is that "I quit 2 weeks before the release of FFXIV". Take it and run.

You quit. You didn't write the devs and say "Hey guys, I'm quitting because I love the game too much. Don't ever change it!". You just quit. People generally quit this game for one of two reasons.

1)They don't like it.
Adding new and different game play options are a good way to solve this (see abyssea / VW etc.).

2)They don't have time.
Again, see abyssea / VW etc.

WHat's more, you quit, when the game was one way and came back when it had changed. From a game companies point of view, whatever they did influenced you to come back. Hence the changes were for the better.

Then you make a thread like this where %99 of the people agree that the change was for the better, and you just reinforce their belief that they made the right decision. They kept my subscription, and they got yours back. Money talks.

[Eyeballed]

You quit. You didn't write the devs and say "Hey guys, I'm quitting because I love the game too much. Don't ever change it!". You just quit. People generally quit this game for one of two reasons.

1)They don't like it.
Adding new and different game play options are a good way to solve this (see abyssea / VW etc.).

2)They don't have time.
Again, see abyssea / VW etc.

WHat's more, you quit, when the game was one way and came back when it had changed. From a game companies point of view, whatever they did influenced you to come back. Hence the changes were for the better.

Then you make a thread like this where %99 of the people agree that the change was for the better, and you just reinforce their belief that they made the right decision. They kept my subscription, and they got yours back. Money talks.

3) They quit the game to play another one.

(Which is exactly what my original statement should imply.)

And what's more, they didn't do anything to make me come back. I solo/duo everything now.

[Komori]

But your still paying them money now despite hating the game so much. But you stopped paying them apparently when you fapped to the long year-lasting grinds.

[FrankReynolds]

3) They quit the game to play a better one until the first one got fixed.



fixed that for you. No charge.

[Eyeballed]

fixed that for you. No charge.

You get what you pay for.

[Trisscar]

Oh? Is there a middle ground between us? I thought we already covered that "choice" thing.

Yeah, there is a middle ground between 'true old school' leveling and 'leeching in Abyssea', as many of us have explained repeatedly to you. That's where 'choice' comes in and why you fail so badly.

You imply there are two types of leveling (this is a false dichotomy) and that one is a 'proper' way of leveling and one is a 'lazy' way of leveling (this is poisoning the well and also a false dichotomy), despite how many times we've explained what choices there are and whether those methods are 'proper' or not is subjective.

[Eyeballed]

Yeah, there is a middle ground between 'true old school' leveling and 'leeching in Abyssea', as many of us have explained repeatedly to you. That's where 'choice' comes in and why you fail so badly.

You imply there are two types of leveling (this is a false dichotomy) and that one is a 'proper' way of leveling and one is a 'lazy' way of leveling (this is poisoning the well and also a false dichotomy), despite how many times we've explained what choices there are and whether those methods are 'proper' or not is subjective.

What's the choice then?

[Meyi]

What's the choice then?

Being in Abyssea and actually contributing to the party. Taking smaller groups (not six man) and killing easier monsters for faster exp. Joining GoV parties and actually partaking in damaging the monsters.

There's oldschool, new school, and leeching.

Now what your definition of leeching is is another note entirely. Personally I find anyone not pulling their weight to be a leecher, but we've all been there and done that before we had access to decent atmas/gear, so I'm not judging them too harshly.

[Eyeballed]

Being in Abyssea and actually contributing to the party. Taking smaller groups (not six man) and killing easier monsters for faster exp. Joining GoV parties and actually partaking in damaging the monsters.

There's oldschool, new school, and leeching.

Now what your definition of leeching is is another note entirely. Personally I find anyone not pulling their weight to be a leecher, but we've all been there and done that before we had access to decent atmas/gear, so I'm not judging them too harshly.

And pre-Abyssea? And why is it that people are even able to get away with leeching in Abyssea? No threat, just spam?

[Trisscar]

What's the choice then?

First is duo or trio through truly old school party camps, like in sky. This takes advantage of books, and since you like making things more difficult for yourself than needed you can turn the option of auto-completion off (just don't be too surprised if no one else does).

Second is to duo or trio in CoP or ToAU zones that don't have books in them, like at the old bird merit camp.

Third is you get the **** over yourself and take a duo or trio party to an Aby camp somewhere.

[Eyeballed]

First is duo or trio through truly old school party camps, like in sky. This takes advantage of books, and since you like making things more difficult for yourself than needed you can turn the option of auto-completion off (just don't be too surprised if no one else does).

Second is to duo or trio in CoP or ToAU zones that don't have books in them, like at the old bird merit camp.

Third is you get the **** over yourself and take a duo or trio party to an Aby camp somewhere.

And where from do you suppose I pull this duo or trio from? (Waits for it)...

And once I get the answer to that, where do I pull the remaining 3-4 to have a proper six-man party? (Waits for it again...)

[detlef]

Well, there's a good reason not to PT the old way.

[Camiie]

And where from do you suppose I pull this duo or trio from? (Waits for it)...

And once I get the answer to that, where do I pull the remaining 3-4 to have a proper six-man party? (Waits for it again...)

That's your problem. If enough people think like you then you'll band together and form the kind of party you want. If not? You either play the way others want to, play alone, or don't play at all.

There's a lot of times I log in and there's no one who wants to do what I want to. I either do something else or log off. Nobody is obligated do do what I want how I want it. Same deal for you.

[Eyeballed]

That's your problem. If enough people think like you then you'll band together and form the kind of party you want. If not? You either play the way others want to, play alone, or don't play at all.

There's a lot of times I log in and there's no one who wants to do what I want to. I either do something else or log off. Nobody is obligated do do what I want how I want it. Same deal for you.

What if this is the case for you 98% of the time? Is that still an option you would call viable?

[Arcon]

What if this is the case for you 98% of the time? Is that still an option you would call viable?

If you can't find five people who think like you in a game with thousands of subscriptions, then you should come to terms with the fact that you're the oddball.

[Eyeballed]

And by the way, perhaps you all didn't catch the neat little memes that say "Oh look. It's this thread again." Perhaps that's because the options you say we have actually do not exist.

[Trisscar]

And where from do you suppose I pull this duo or trio from? (Waits for it)...

Shout in Jeuno, ask in your shell, consult your friends list (although I suspect yours is a very short one).


And once I get the answer to that, where do I pull the remaining 3-4 to have a proper six-man party? (Waits for it again...)

There's no legitimate need for 6 man party to level any more and plenty of good reasons to keep it low man. But read up my earlier answer.

[Trisscar]

And by the way, perhaps you all didn't catch the neat little memes that say "Oh look. It's this thread again." Perhaps that's because the options you say we have actually do not exist.

I think the reason for those is not for the reason you think it is.

[Merton9999]

So what you're saying is you want this game to be more "Adventure" than "RPG". God of War, Prince of Persia, hell even Zelda come to mind when all you're looking for are big fights and nice drops. That's not what this game is meant to be about, or any RPG for that matter.

I'm not saying I want it to fit a label at all. The "this isn't a true RPG" absurdity is a high school clique "cook kids" label. A few years later most people realize the names don't mean anything.

You keep trying to take your personal preference for a passtime and objectify it, which is where the absurdity comes in. You don't get to personally define what an objective universal definition of RPG is, or even the idea that FFXI has to necessarily meet this definition if it even existed. I also assume if there was some legal obligation of what RPGs are meant to be, it would change over time. If not, I'd expect you to be buying consumables one at a time like I bought potions in FF1 in 1988. Man, what an accomplishment that was.

Again I'm going back to my high school kids that never left their hometown. There is a tremendous tendency to take the only thing you know and make it the "right way". For most people that fades as soon as college away from home slaps them in the face. For some it's a simple trip to another country, and others a career world with people of all age groups. But we can't even get you to try VW or other end game content, so I don't think there's hope yet.

[Mirage]

Fun fact for Eyeballed.

You can get the feeling of danger attached to old school parties by trioing T-VT enemies, and if you do it right, you'll even get about twice the exp an hour compared to actual old school parties.

How's that for a middle path?

Before you say it's impossible or something, I did this about a year ago with two friends and it worked just as expected, we got about 30k/hour in the jungles. Naturally, you'd need a party with two strong DDs and one job that can both heal and buff. If this healer/buffer can also deal a tiny bit of damage, that's even better. On T-targets, even jobs with relatively low offensive stats can deal enough damage for it to matter. A good setup could be for example war/mnk, sam/war, cor/whm or maybe brd/whm. See, you'll even emulate the need for jobs that are in low supply!

You basically just go to the same camps as you'd go to with a full party, but just go there 5 levels later.

We're not doing it anymore though, because we don't really feel like spending so much time on leveling when we could spend that time better by farming dynamis, abyssea, or whatever else there is to do for duos and trios to do.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I hope you bring the old Final Fantasy XI game back. Every sense abyssea the games turned into s$$t. Alot of older players think so as well and thats why they stoped playing the game.
I herd a rumor that they planed on making this game out to be like World of Warcraft. IF you turn this game into another WoW clone thats it for me.

I'm not really sure what to do about the leveling system either. Sense all the Newb's only want to do 18 man partys doing grounds of valor so when they do get high enough to do other stuff they have no idea what they are doing. There still quite of few of us who love to do the old 6 man party sets up but its more defacult now then it use to be even tho I'm still able to do it with enough shouting in town to find people to join. I've notice they put a cap on lower level pages in abyssea zone for lower level's, Maybe put a 1 game day limit on page's in grounds of valor would stop those 18 man party's and maybe not.

And on a side note would be nice to get male mithria adding to this game and battle choco's :D just my 2 cents hope you read it.

Regards
Loyal FF player sense 04You obviously missed the point in the game before level sync existed wherein it was astronimically impossible to find anyone to be able to party with and the point several months after level sync where it wasn't nearly as astronomical, but still nearly impossible to find anyone to party with.

[Eyeballed]

I'm not saying I want it to fit a label at all. The "this isn't a true RPG" absurdity is a high school clique "cook kids" label. A few years later most people realize the names don't mean anything.

You keep trying to take your personal preference for a passtime and objectify it, which is where the absurdity comes in. You don't get to personally define what an objective universal definition of RPG is, or even the idea that FFXI has to necessarily meet this definition if it even existed. I also assume if there was some legal obligation of what RPGs are meant to be, it would change over time. If not, I'd expect you to be buying consumables one at a time like I bought potions in FF1 in 1988. Man, what an accomplishment that was.

Again I'm going back to my high school kids that never left their hometown. There is a tremendous tendency to take the only thing you know and make it the "right way". For most people that fades as soon as college away from home slaps them in the face. For some it's a simple trip to another country, and others a career world with people of all age groups. But we can't even get you to try VW or other end game content, so I don't think there's hope yet.

How about instead of it being "This isn't a true RPG", we go straight for the gut and say "This isn't the game I used to play." It has very, very little to do with objectification as it does the style of gameplay this game used to deliver - which I preferred, shockingly enough. Again I say, if it was still here as you all claim it to be, then why are people still complaining? Are we all delusional?

On a side note, I'm originally from Texas and now live in the UK.

[Modoru]

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[Trisscar]

How about instead of it being "This isn't a true RPG", we go straight for the gut and say "This isn't the game I used to play." It has very, very little to do with objectification as it does the style of gameplay this game used to deliver - which I preferred, shockingly enough. Again I say, if it was still here as you all claim it to be, then why are people still complaining? Are we all delusional?

On a side note, I'm originally from Texas and now live in the UK.

Wrong, this is the same game that you used to play, only better.

Don't forget that this isn't the first time the way people got experience points changed. People used to level in the tombs, the labyrinth, Bibiki, and on before RotZ and then sky became the leveling grounds, and things changed again with ToAU and again with WotG.

You're just being a child because you got left behind.

[FrankReynolds]

How about instead of it being "This isn't a true RPG", we go straight for the gut and say "This isn't the game I used to play." It has very, very little to do with objectification as it does the style of gameplay this game used to deliver - which I preferred, shockingly enough.

Your looking for a game that never changes? Buy a single player game.

This is an online game with thousands of players. Even if Square enix never made a single change to the game (and by some strange miracle people kept playing), the game would change regardless, because the people change. Your favorite old slow exp party scenario still exists, but the people who liked it don't like it any more. You don't want SE to change the game back to the way it was in 2005. You want SE to change the players back to the people they were in 2005. And they can't do that. To be honest, it's getting a little depressing.


Again I say, if it was still here as you all claim it to be, then why are people still complaining? Are we all delusional?

Yes, you are delusional. You keep complaining because nothing is being done about your complaints. It will likely never get done. Every one of these threads is the same. A couple of likes on the OP, and then the second post telling the OP that his idea is terribad ... with a ton of likes.

This particular thread's OP has hit a record high of 6 likes. That means there are enough of you to go start a party and leave the rest of us alone.

[Demon6324236]

"This isn't the game I used to play."I'm guessing because like how you seem to be now, you were stuck in the leveling area of the game. The exact part many people hated, and was changed. Now you don't like leveling how it is.
It has very, very little to do with objectification as it does the style of gameplay this game used to deliver - which I preferred, shockingly enough.This is why it has been said you should leave FFXI. If you don't like it you should leave now because alot of others DO like it. Now if alot of people hated it, and only a few liked it, maybe there would be a good reason for change.
Again I say, if it was still here as you all claim it to be, then why are people still complaining? Are we all delusional?It is there if you can find enough people who agree with you to do it. If you can not find enough people who agree with you to do it then yes, it can not be done as you wish. I wish I could do Assaults alone rather than with a group of 3 because I have had a hard time finding 3 people available to do it every few days. If you can find the people, you can do what you want, if you cant, then solo, you have that choice, you can do it, if you do not like it, then sorry but leave now, because almost no one wants this.

[Eyeballed]

I'm guessing because like how you seem to be now, you were stuck in the leveling area of the game.

As appalling as it might sound to the rest of you, party grinding (as it used to be) was probably my favorite thing to do. After I moved on to FFXIV and found that there, too, was the same exact 'problem'. That in turn frustrates the hell out of me. There ought to be a game for you, and there ought to be a game for us. This was, at one time, that game for me, but it's been hijacked.

[Arcon]

How about instead of it being "This isn't a true RPG", we go straight for the gut and say "This isn't the game I used to play."

It most definitely is not. This is completely different. But as I already pointed out to you several pages and frustrating replies ago, you did not buy a game. You bought a license for a service, the service being access to a game that SE is developing. Notice the "is" part. The game is in constant development. Which is why you also don't pay monthly for a game, but for a subscription to renew your license for another month. And which is precisely why you can choose to quit at any time when the service is no longer appropriate for you or does not provide you with the entertainment you desire.

And sure, as a paying customer it is your full right to come on here and complain. But this pointless arguing is really tiring.

[Eyeballed]

And sure, as a paying customer it is your full right to come on here and complain. But this pointless arguing is really tiring.

It does take two to tango. A bit self-defeating in this statement.

[Arcon]

A bit self-defeating in this statement.

None .

[Modoru]

Isn't GoV "party grinding"? Sure, it's an expedited form of grinding, but party grinding nonetheless.

If you don't want to do GoV, then you're just being stubborn.

[Eyeballed]

Isn't GoV "party grinding"? Sure, it's an expedited form of grinding, but party grinding nonetheless.

If you don't want to do GoV, then you're just being stubborn.

Keyword: Expedited. There was a tempo set a long time ago as far as rate of progression that in recent times has been replaced with a fast-forward button. If people didn't like that pace, they should have gone back to WoW and stayed there.

[Modoru]

Honestly "gathering groups" for party used to be very specific to certain jobs [eg, it was pretty hard for me to obtain a party as Thief unless I made it, and even then I had problems on occasion because I couldn't find a white mage, or a DD, or a tank, among other problems], and the grind to 75 wasn't a complete issue, it was fun to an extent, sure.

However: Meripo was tedious, admit it. Grinding on birds for ridiculous skillchains is as fun as grabbing dolls in altepa, except mages can do the damage instead of just DDs. The "endgame" for FFXI was stripped to the "elite few", where most of the player base was excluded, in linkshells that had an exorbitant amount of drama, flawed "lot point" systems, unrealistic entrance requirements [aka, you needed to have a decent amount of gear before coming in], and very, very corrupt leaders. Abyssea pretty much allowed everyone else to play on an equal standing and have a chance at good gear -- the "elites" just learned how to do it in lower numbers.

Abyssea wasn't a curse to this game -- it was instead, a boon, because it brought a breath of life to this game once more, facilitating a tedious process for newcomers and certain older players, allowing for more dynamic play and a faster pace.

I admit, it fell flat with the proc system -- it made many jobs obsolete, but other than that, it was still a decent design.

That said, these are just my opinions, but I highly disagree about abyssea being a problem.

Also: I'm pretty sure the reason why there's less people today isn't because of abyssea, but instead because the game is already past the decade milestone, and a lot of people got bored, or just moved onto something else, not because of abyssea.

Can we please mention how my post and others in the first page were completely ignored because they seemingly entirely outdid their argument? Anyone? Please? Like, no counterarguments here?

[Eyeballed]

In any case I don't even think your extension fails. If SE offered a faster leveling method than Abyssea I'd gladly take it, just like I'd teleport to Disneyworld if I could. The reason is that I know when I get there that I'll enjoy the real experience I'm looking for.

What you don't understand about the 'trip to Disneyworld' is, is as far as the game goes, the trip itself is a game for some. And why not? Why doesn't that much deserve to be a part of the content if possible?

Although we disagree, it's been a pleasure to debate this with you, unlike the rest of these guys.

[Komori]

Because while you might want to take a car for eight hours to get there. Sitting in one spot for that long, hungry and in need of a bathroom totally isn't me. I prefer the two hour flight so I can get there earlier and enjoy myself longer. Why won't that get across to you? If no one wants to take the car with you so there's no one to take shifts driving so it takes you longer and your trip is further cut short, then so be it. But your not allowed to just stamp your feet and yell at me that I'm not allowed to take a flight that I have to pay for just like you pay for the gas to drive across country.

Make any sense now?

[Mirage]

Keyword: Expedited. There was a tempo set a long time ago as far as rate of progression that in recent times has been replaced with a fast-forward button. If people didn't like that pace, they should have gone back to WoW and stayed there.
Now it sounds like you're assuming everyone who plays FF11 instead of WoW does so because they liked 2001-2009 leveling speed.

I personally quit WoW because I found the lore, world and visual design boring/uninteresting/stupid. I can't say I miss the leveling speed from oldschool FF11 at all, but I do think that being stuck in a book alliance is pretty boring. It would have been more exciting if they gave us more varied methods to level up faster.

Using lolWoW as some sort of insult doesn't really make much sense. WoW did a lot of things right, but the few things that I personally didnt think they did right is what brought me back to FF11.

[Modoru]

Keyword: Expedited. There was a tempo set a long time ago as far as rate of progression that in recent times has been replaced with a fast-forward button. If people didn't like that pace, they should have gone back to WoW and stayed there.

That's hardly valid? What's wrong with having a somewhat accelerated rate of progression? All it means is, you get to enjoy newer and more end-game content? FFXI is not, by any means, a WoW clone, and a faster grind does not make it similar in any way. The game is still rich with content, including missions, quests, gear hunting, etc, and you could never compare it to WoW. I have never played the game [at least, not by my own will], so why should I suddenly have to abide to your opinions as if they were a rule, and "go back to WoW"?

[Demon6324236]

Ya know, I gotta wonder if the new producer is actually reading all this, I mean I know its not likely but~... never know. :x

[Modoru]

Ya know, I gotta wonder if the new producer is actually reading all this, I mean I know its not likely but~... never know. :x
Quick, hide your torches and pitchforks!

[Demon6324236]

Quick, hide your torches and pitchforks!

Psh~ I would raise them higher, show how much we do not like this idea!

[Eyeballed]

Can we please mention how my post and others in the first page were completely ignored because they seemingly entirely outdid their argument? Anyone? Please? Like, no counterarguments here?

Because it is almost entirely composed of your opinion, and you have a right to it. You presented it well and without insults. All I can say is "I disagree".

[Sarick]

Because it is almost entirely composed of your opinion, and you have a right to it. You presented it well and without insults. All I can say is "I disagree".

It's become more then just opinion at this point. You need removed from posting or this thread needs locked because the only thing you've been doing is spamming this topic arguing with everyone just to argue. You're the oddball posting.

You lost long ago and continue to reply to everyone. It doesn't matter what they say you can't leave any comments unreplied. This single topic has taking your post count from two all the way into the 80's. This isn't normal when the topic is a flip'pen dead horse. Obviously, you are enjoying the attention. In fact, by what you said already you've made it clear that the majority doesn't want you to represent their interest.

On that note.

The intelligence of the developers reading this topic would only need to read a few post to come to the conclusion that you're nuts with an emotional selfish agenda. They'd also realize your just blowing wind to bump your topic. In any case if you haven't figured it out yet, even though you are getting this attention, gaining post count and keeping the topic bumped. The developer will have already concluded that no relevance is left in reading further.

Keep wasting your time the only thing you're doing is making the developers/playerbase ignore you more. Ignore as in realizing your post hold noting of value other then the thrill of arguing. In the amount of time you wasted on this topic you could've leveled RDM to 62 your slow way.

[Plasticleg]

Can we please mention how my post and others in the first page were completely ignored because they seemingly entirely outdid their argument? Anyone? Please? Like, no counterarguments here?

It wasn't really ignored. The majority of the players agree with your statements; it's just something that's been said over and over.

[Eyeballed]

It's become more then just opinion at this point. You need removed from posting or this thread needs locked because the only thing you've been doing is spamming this topic arguing with everyone just to argue. You're the oddball posting.

You lost long ago and continue to reply to everyone. It doesn't matter what they say you can't leave any comments unreplied. This single topic has taking your post count from two all the way into the 80's. This isn't normal when the topic is a flip'pen dead horse. Obviously, you are enjoying the attention. In fact, by what you said already you've made it clear that the majority doesn't want you to represent their interest.

On that note.

The intelligence of the developers reading this topic would only need to read a few post to come to the conclusion that you're nuts with an emotional selfish agenda. They'd also realize your just blowing wind to bump your topic. In any case if you haven't figured it out yet, even though you are getting this attention, gaining post count and keeping the topic bumped. The developer will have already concluded that no relevance is left in reading further.

Keep wasting your time the only thing you're doing is making the developers/playerbase ignore you more.

Wait, wait. Just because I have an opinion and am persistent in defending it means I need to be silenced? I argue that it's you and yourself keeping the thread alive; How about we get you banned from posting? ....

[Sarick]

Wait, wait. Just because I have an opinion and am persistent in defending it means I need to be silenced? I argue that it's you and yourself keeping the thread alive; How about we get you banned from posting? ....

The first part of my last post that you cut out explains why.

Keep wasting your time the only thing you're doing is making the developers/playerbase ignore disagree with you more. (FIXED)

No defense for that it's you that made this happen yourself. I cry sweet tears of joy every time I see a retort from you. You've become an inside joke to a few people who read this forum. I've been reading it for the laughs at this point. You've already defended your side and lost. The war is over. When I think of your comments I see a crazy person in a mental institution yelling in a closed padded room bring back houses, save the environment, it's the end of the world repent or something to that nature. I don't see someone whose defending an argument.

At this point you're being fanatic about what you think creating every excuse possible to stay a float on a sunk ship. Prove me wrong don't reply to me ever again.

Excellent link,
http://psychcentral.com/quizzes/schizophrenia.htm

Seriously. people have read your defense there is nothing noteworthy worth listening to.

[Eyeballed]

Keep wasting your time the only thing you're doing is making the developers/playerbase ignore you more.

What sweet gospel you sing! I suppose the last 31 pages are testament of this? Doesn't look like they're ignoring much to me.

[FrankReynolds]

What you don't understand about the 'trip to Disneyworld' is, is as far as the game goes, the trip itself is a game for some. And why not? Why doesn't that much deserve to be a part of the content if possible?

Although we disagree, it's been a pleasure to debate this with you, unlike the rest of these guys.


Some people just like disneyland and prefer to drive to disneyland, some ride bikes, some take planes or trains, some people walk there. But, the people who walk do not get to force people to stop using planes / trains / automobiles / bikes to get to disneyland, just because they don't have anyone to walk with. Anyone who can't understand why, probably lacks the mental faculties required to be left unsupervised.

[Sarick]

What sweet gospel you sing! I suppose the last 31 pages are testament of this? Doesn't look like they're ignoring much to me.


It's a testament to everything I said. I can assume others agree by the amount of likes on the third post. I should have said disagree instead of ignore. It would have better acknowledged the impact of the responses.


Keep wasting your time the only thing you're doing is making the developers/playerbase ignore disagree with you more. (FIXED)

No defense for that it's you that made this happen yourself. I cry sweet tears of joy every time I see a retort from you. You've become an inside joke to a few people who read this forum. I've been reading it for the laughs at this point. You've already defended your side and lost. The war is over. When I think of your comments I see a crazy person in a mental institution yelling in a closed padded room bring back houses, save the environment, it's the end of the world repent or something to that nature. I don't see someone whose defending an argument.

At this point you're being fanatic about what you think creating every excuse possible to stay a float on a sunk ship. Prove me wrong don't reply to me ever again.

Excellent link,
http://psychcentral.com/quizzes/schizophrenia.htm

Seriously. people have read your defense there is nothing noteworthy worth listening to.

I guess you can't help it. I bolded a part that you must have missed. Correction, nothing noteworthy to defend your argument. You do have a way of making comments that stir the pot with your infatuation. Don't confuse the responses with interest in your opinion. People are enjoying some of the post because It's like watching married with children. Technically, they're responding because everything is so backwards. For the record, the original poster conceded long ago.

Developers or representatives please answer this topic and say "We are not removing these experience methods from the game" :rolleyes:

[Eyeballed]

It's a testament to everything I said. I can assume others agree by the amount of likes on the third post. I should have said disagree instead of ignore. It would have better acknowledged the impact of the responses.



I guess you can't help it. I bolded a part that you must have missed. Correction, nothing noteworthy to defend your argument. You do have a way of making comments that stir the pot with your infatuation. Don't confuse the responses with interest in your opinion. People are enjoying some of the post because It's like watching married with children. Technically, they're responding because everything is so backwards. For the record, the original poster conceded long ago.

Developers or representatives please answer this topic and say "We are not removing these experience methods from the game" :rolleyes:

I'm backward? Well at least I can give you everyone credit for keeping this thread alive in contrary to your their wish for it to die. Every time you respond to me in any capacity, you do this. What's more important, the game or what you consider your entertainment in this thread? Let's have a look...

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Ya know, I gotta wonder if the new producer is actually reading all this, I mean I know its not likely but~... never know. :xIt would have to make it past the NA filters to get to the JP filters before it gets to him.

[Sarick]

I'm backward? Well at least I can give you credit for keeping this thread alive in contrary to your wish for it to die. Every time you respond to me in any capacity, you do this. What's more important, the game or what you consider your entertainment in this thread? Let's have a look...


What was it we where arguing about again?

[Meyi]

Eyeballed, I liked 2003 EXP back when it was 2003 and all I had to do was my algebra homework every night. When I had an internet boyfriend and the game was the only activity we had we could play together. When I had no in game friends and the end game activity was incredibly low. When I was leveling my first job to 75.

I liked it when I was 14.

It's been 9 years, can we please accept that the game is going to change? In two years it'll be nothing like it is today so we should enjoy what we have when we have it, and be thankful that the things we want changed get changed when they do. If you could somehow propose a method to make 6 man parties BETTER than they ever were 2003~2010 with complete accessibility to ALL jobs on equal footing, a plentiful amount of camp sites, monster types, and overall smoothness and speed of an Abyssea party, I will gladly support your call to return. Until then, I want EXP to remain fast and accessible to all via Abyssea.

[Sarick]

Eyeballed, I liked 2003 EXP back when it was 2003 and all I had to do was my algebra homework every night. When I had an internet boyfriend and the game was the only activity we had we could play together. When I had no in game friends and the end game activity was incredibly low. When I was leveling my first job to 75.

I liked it when I was 14.

It's been 9 years, can we please accept that the game is going to change? In two years it'll be nothing like it is today so we should enjoy what we have when we have it, and be thankful that the things we want changed get changed when they do. If you could somehow propose a method to make 6 man parties BETTER than they ever were 2003~2010 with complete accessibility to ALL jobs on equal footing, a plentiful amount of camp sites, monster types, and overall smoothness and speed of an Abyssea party, I will gladly support your call to return. Until then, I want EXP to remain fast and accessible to all via Abyssea.

She already proposed her solution.. See below...


I can make a solution. Get rid of Abyssea and auto-repeat book pages. Take it back to the way it was. Happy? And no, I won't stop. Sorry.

I basically answered for her using her own words.

[Eyeballed]

She already proposed her solution.. See below...



I basically answered for her using her own words.

So which is it Sarick?; Do you want me to keep the thread alive responding to your posts or do you want to keep the thread alive responding to others' posts for me? Lol...

[FrankReynolds]

So which is it Sarick?; Do you want me to keep the thread alive responding to your posts or do you want to keep the thread alive responding to others' posts for me? Lol...

You can keep it alive. So far we have a count of 7 likes and 45 dislikes. If anyone who matters at SE is reading this stuff, then it will be very clear that your ideas are not those of the majority of players and should not be taken into consideration.

In all likelihood, the community reps read the first few posts and then posted one of those "Oh god not this thread again" memes on their personal account and left.

[Meyi]

She already proposed her solution.. See below...


I can make a solution. Get rid of Abyssea and auto-repeat book pages. Take it back to the way it was. Happy? And no, I won't stop. Sorry.

I basically answered for her using her own words.

Thank you for answering for me so I didn't have to wade through 30 some pages I've missed, haha. -smile- But that's not an accurate enough method to create thriving exp parties. That's still slow, boring, painful exp. It's faster than 2003, but it pales in comparison to 2012 and Abyssea.

What I'm wanting from Eyeballed is a method that will allow all jobs equal opportunity into a party. Six man parties require one tank, one to two healers, a buffer, and damage dealers to fill up the missing slots. That's not efficient when there are several more damage dealing type jobs compared to healing and tanking. While Square Enix has added more healer type jobs into the game (Scholar, Puppetmaster, Dancer, and Blue Mage to an extent), they've not really added more tank jobs (Paladin and Ninja still). And while tanks can be over looked and healers reduced when attacking lower level monsters, that's not how Eyeballed EXPed, that's not the 2003 way, and in the end it still excludes some jobs unless said party is composed of friends.

Perhaps if Eyeballed could create an event that acted similar to an EXP party yet rewarded each job for its own unique abilities (like Campaign/Beseiged/Bastion) and could compose of several different strategies for similar rewards then I could get behind it. Potentially under this effect (similar to a Fields of Valor buff) it could induce jobs with a pseudo enmity+ or cure ability+ to reduce the need for tanks and healers and let anyone fill any particular slot.

For example, with the special buff up, a Summoner could use a Blood Pact Rage of say, Aero II, and the additional effect would be a Cure II on the person deemed 'tank'. Said tank could be any job, like another Summoner, or a Warrior, or even a Paladin. Another example could be a Warrior using Rampage and said weapon skill grants a bonus of "drain effect" for all members for ten seconds. Or maybe a temporary strong Refresh effect on resting mages (this would bring back HMP sets :)).

What I'm saying is that 2003 exp doesn't exist for many reasons. Aside from how slow it is, it requires people to be specific jobs (PLD or NIN, DD, DD, BLM or BRD, RDM or BRD, WHM) which, most people don't want to play because they find them boring. There's a plethora of DD jobs, but only a handful of tank, healing, and buffing. We need to allow all people the ability to play regardless of what they're playing in order to trump Abyssea, because Abyssea allows it. Hell, Grounds of Valor parties allow it too, and they have just as high an AFK rate as Abyssea, if not higher. But GoV also allows for 18 people and works on the system of defeating easy prey monsters for the book's exp reward. 2003 EXP parties work on the EXP rewarded from monsters (though can be used in unison with FoV/GoV and grant delicious bonuses).

You also need to remove the wait time for exp parties. I can easily join a GoV party or solo while I wait for one, but 2003 required I sit and wait for hours for an invite unless I was on my WHM, BRD, or RDM. My THF rarely ever got invites, BST never did, and SMN only did when there were no WHMs and people were desperate for some kind of Cure (which after 60 I soloed the rest to 75). BLM got parties until level 40, then Treasure of Aht Urgan came out and I had to solo the rest of the way up.

We have new tools to make 2003 type parties work, but you must be creative in order to make them work. Banning Abyssea and banning GoV are not the ways to do it -- that will alienate and anger the player base who, for the majority of players, just want to get their EXP fast so they can work on acquiring armor, weapons, and helping their friends do the same. This is a stupid idea and praising it like Altana's word is ridiculous. Be creative and think of something unique and original.

Our current tools are EXP bands, Anniversary Rings, Fields of Valor, Grounds of Valor, and models are GoV parties, Abyssea, Campaign, Beseiged, Bastion, Dominion, MMM, and BCNMs. Our out of date model is the 2003 EXP party of six people bringing down incredibly tough monsters for high exp. Blend these all together somehow and you'll create something new, fresh, and exciting for people to participate in.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who says they AFK frequently in GoV parties and Abyssea because they're bored out of their skull. I like interaction, and sometimes 6 man parties were interactive. I'd be interested to try small group parties again if and only if they were enticing enough.

[Mirage]

What Meyi said.

[Fupafighter]

I hope you bring the old Final Fantasy XI game back. Every sense abyssea the games turned into s$$t. Alot of older players think so as well and thats why they stoped playing the game.
I herd a rumor that they planed on making this game out to be like World of Warcraft. IF you turn this game into another WoW clone thats it for me.

I'm not really sure what to do about the leveling system either. Sense all the Newb's only want to do 18 man partys doing grounds of valor so when they do get high enough to do other stuff they have no idea what they are doing. There still quite of few of us who love to do the old 6 man party sets up but its more defacult now then it use to be even tho I'm still able to do it with enough shouting in town to find people to join. I've notice they put a cap on lower level pages in abyssea zone for lower level's, Maybe put a 1 game day limit on page's in grounds of valor would stop those 18 man party's and maybe not.

And on a side note would be nice to get male mithria adding to this game and battle choco's :D just my 2 cents hope you read it.

Regards
Loyal FF player sense 04

SINCE. DAMMIT. "It's more defacult". You know there's spell check right?

[FrankReynolds]

SINCE. DAMMIT. "It's more defacult". You know there's spell check right?

I personally don't give a crap if people spell everything wrong. But for what it's worth, chrome comes with built in spell check so people don't even have to remember to use it.

https://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/browser/

[Masekase]

Coherent enough! What I really understand is people trying to justify their distaste for classic FFXI because they essentially got nothing accomplished because it wasn't handed to them. See: "I waited for hours and never got a party"; Well, yanno, usually you don't get much of anything handed to you. If you want it, go get it, and don't blame anyone else but you for your lack of ability in getting EXP on your THF or DRK or whatever.

LOL the old style parties sucked for exp limiting certain jobs to party and excluding all the others. Having to level another job up just for easier merits. Oh and yes I went out and had to get exp the hard way and not handed to me I had to solo most of blm thf and drk. Then had to play either rdm or brd two jobs i detest playing just to get merits for the jobs i enjoyed sorry that's not my idea of fun.

Oh and before you say making parties yourself I tried that numerous times. Which resulted in ppl asking what is your set up. Soon as mentioning thf or blm majority replied with a no thanks.

[Sp1cyryan]

Old XP:

*Spend a countless amount of extra hours to get the same XP compared to abyssea and GoV.

*People still were bad, and did not "learn their job".

*People played jobs in a manner not consistent with endgame so they couldn't even "learn their jobs".

*Not all jobs could get parties and were ostracized making jobs like BST, SMN, and BLM have to spend weeks months instead of days weeks to level.

*The jobs that were ostracized from parties that did get parties made them take even longer.

*It was harder to find specific jobs.

*It could take a long time to make a party or get in a party.

*Camps were fought over resulting in even less XP or an inability to XP and possibly fighting and griefing.

*People still had to go skill up weapons.

*People level sync to 75 in Quifim and be worse off than the current system.

*People would still leech by paying for a SMN burn party and botting in campaign until buffs and even afk meleeing the fort was patched.

*Chigoe burning was also a big thing same premise as SMN burning.
_______________________________________________________
I am really tired of listing issues even though I am sure there are a few more. However, this is the system you "back in the good ole day" people seem to want back. The logic for wanting this is beyond faulty and idiotic. It is just that simple.

This is a matter of being against switching from a horse and buggy to a car in early 20th century ffs.

There should be no discussion about how people want the "old school" parties back. It is just a bunch of nostalgic nonsense comparable to the people who go around saying "my best years were in highschool" only not realizing their memory is distorted and they really were not their best years.

If the old system means that much to you then go play 14 because it is not coming back to 11.

[Sarick]

Thank you for answering for me so I didn't have to wade through 30 some pages I've missed, haha. -smile- But that's not an accurate enough method to create thriving exp parties. That's still slow, boring, painful exp. It's faster than 2003, but it pales in comparison to 2012 and Abyssea.

What I'm wanting from Eyeballed is a method that will allow all jobs equal opportunity into a party.

This is a fair way to say it. The problem is I don't think she can come up with a serious fix, nor does she want to suggest one. It's all or bust in a fanatic nature that has no logical resolve. You can't reason with this mentality because it's nature will not concede from a logic perspective.

[Eyeballed]

Thank you for answering for me so I didn't have to wade through 30 some pages I've missed, haha. -smile- But that's not an accurate enough method to create thriving exp parties. That's still slow, boring, painful exp. It's faster than 2003, but it pales in comparison to 2012 and Abyssea.

What I'm wanting from Eyeballed is a method that will allow all jobs equal opportunity into a party. Six man parties require one tank, one to two healers, a buffer, and damage dealers to fill up the missing slots. That's not efficient when there are several more damage dealing type jobs compared to healing and tanking. While Square Enix has added more healer type jobs into the game (Scholar, Puppetmaster, Dancer, and Blue Mage to an extent), they've not really added more tank jobs (Paladin and Ninja still). And while tanks can be over looked and healers reduced when attacking lower level monsters, that's not how Eyeballed EXPed, that's not the 2003 way, and in the end it still excludes some jobs unless said party is composed of friends.

Perhaps if Eyeballed could create an event that acted similar to an EXP party yet rewarded each job for its own unique abilities (like Campaign/Beseiged/Bastion) and could compose of several different strategies for similar rewards then I could get behind it. Potentially under this effect (similar to a Fields of Valor buff) it could induce jobs with a pseudo enmity+ or cure ability+ to reduce the need for tanks and healers and let anyone fill any particular slot.

For example, with the special buff up, a Summoner could use a Blood Pact Rage of say, Aero II, and the additional effect would be a Cure II on the person deemed 'tank'. Said tank could be any job, like another Summoner, or a Warrior, or even a Paladin. Another example could be a Warrior using Rampage and said weapon skill grants a bonus of "drain effect" for all members for ten seconds. Or maybe a temporary strong Refresh effect on resting mages (this would bring back HMP sets :)).

What I'm saying is that 2003 exp doesn't exist for many reasons. Aside from how slow it is, it requires people to be specific jobs (PLD or NIN, DD, DD, BLM or BRD, RDM or BRD, WHM) which, most people don't want to play because they find them boring. There's a plethora of DD jobs, but only a handful of tank, healing, and buffing. We need to allow all people the ability to play regardless of what they're playing in order to trump Abyssea, because Abyssea allows it. Hell, Grounds of Valor parties allow it too, and they have just as high an AFK rate as Abyssea, if not higher. But GoV also allows for 18 people and works on the system of defeating easy prey monsters for the book's exp reward. 2003 EXP parties work on the EXP rewarded from monsters (though can be used in unison with FoV/GoV and grant delicious bonuses).

You also need to remove the wait time for exp parties. I can easily join a GoV party or solo while I wait for one, but 2003 required I sit and wait for hours for an invite unless I was on my WHM, BRD, or RDM. My THF rarely ever got invites, BST never did, and SMN only did when there were no WHMs and people were desperate for some kind of Cure (which after 60 I soloed the rest to 75). BLM got parties until level 40, then Treasure of Aht Urgan came out and I had to solo the rest of the way up.

We have new tools to make 2003 type parties work, but you must be creative in order to make them work. Banning Abyssea and banning GoV are not the ways to do it -- that will alienate and anger the player base who, for the majority of players, just want to get their EXP fast so they can work on acquiring armor, weapons, and helping their friends do the same. This is a stupid idea and praising it like Altana's word is ridiculous. Be creative and think of something unique and original.

Our current tools are EXP bands, Anniversary Rings, Fields of Valor, Grounds of Valor, and models are GoV parties, Abyssea, Campaign, Beseiged, Bastion, Dominion, MMM, and BCNMs. Our out of date model is the 2003 EXP party of six people bringing down incredibly tough monsters for high exp. Blend these all together somehow and you'll create something new, fresh, and exciting for people to participate in.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who says they AFK frequently in GoV parties and Abyssea because they're bored out of their skull. I like interaction, and sometimes 6 man parties were interactive. I'd be interested to try small group parties again if and only if they were enticing enough.

I'd say the ratio of healers, support, tanks and melee was just about right. Six party members comprised of 1 tank, 1 healer, 3-4 DD and/or 1 support; (WHM, RDM, SCH, [SMN]), (PLD, NIN, [WAR]), (BRD, COR, DNC [SMN]), (DRK, RNG, SAM, MNK, THF, BLM, DRG, PUP, WAR, BLU, [BST]). Of course, there was always opinions as to which jobs were over-powered, and usually it was situational. Ranger and Samurai (Polearm) come to mind versus Colibri, which were pretty much the go-to mob from Lv55 onward. Except for that break in Caedarva with Imps, which brings to mind the lowly BLM soloing or doing burn parties (or in rare cases when they could get folks to go to Bibiki). If you ask me, it was less about the job than it was about the mob. Before Lv55, Ranger and Samurai were pretty much on-par with the rest of the melee. In the case of Red Mage monopolizing the healer spot post Convert/Refresh, WHM could have stood about a bit more in itself if one of those abilities had been removed or given to WHM & SCH too.

As far as people neglecting to play jobs because they're boring, well, the answer is pretty much don't play those jobs. I have played them all to at least the low 30's, (NIN, THF, BRD make me happy), and there's not one that I say I detest so much that I would not play it even to have their abilities useful as a sub (SMN is at the bottom of my list). I liked to play the game, plain and simple.

The amount of time you wait for an invite is totally up to you. Thief is a common beating-post for this complaint, and I tell you I waited not at all for invites when I wanted to play on it. I logged in and immediately began /sea spam for not only potential invites, but to leaders in my range and asked them politely if any DD spots would be opening up soon. It's about pro-activity. The reason I didn't wait much at all to take my THF up is because there's a healer, tank, support, and a bunch of melee out there with their flags up that just can't be bothered - they'd just rather complain. They'll take the invite you send, and either rejoice when the party is grand or complain again that the party was too slow.

I don't want to toot my own horn, but being as I led pretty much every group I was involved in, I even invited myself to pull at Caedarva Mire on my BLM/NIN (Stun) where I would pull, rest, Firaga II and repeat. It worked just fine. BLM BLM WAR WAR DRG DRG was probably the most interesting, good and functional party I ever made killing Kuftal's Robber Crabs. You know why?, Because magic can happen if people are willing to try and entertain the possible dynamics of those less-coveted jobs. Instead, what you get is somewhere along the lines of "I played SAM so I could be good just spamming Penta-Thrust."

(Though we won't talk about the time I took a BLU to tank Imps...) *Cringe*

[Meyi]

You still refused to present a better solution to a previous burden. :/ I didn't ask to relive the past because I already experienced it well enough. I want something fresh and exciting for the future.

[Eyeballed]

Anyhow, yeah I agree the lower-levels were a bit harsh as well as soloing (sans-BST) at any level was punishing as far as EXP gain. I do use books when I solo, and yes it is for the buffs and pages. However, I do not agree that the pages should auto-repeat simply due to the fact that the masses have abused it to get away with, the way I see it, not playing the game. That should not even be allowed. In my book, it's simply cheating.

Remove the auto-repeat pages, slow down EXP gain in later levels, and bring back tactics to grind parties instead of this balls-to-the-wall spamming.

[Eyeballed]

You still refused to present a better solution to a previous burden. :/ I didn't ask to relive the past because I already experienced it well enough. I want something fresh and exciting for the future.

The solution was already there - you just failed to take part in it.

[Meyi]

Remove the auto-repeat pages, slow down EXP gain in later levels, and bring back tactics to grind parties instead of this balls-to-the-wall spamming.


God no, I hated having to run back and forth for books. I like being able to stay at camp and continue killing rather than having to stop just to run back and rebook. Not everyone uses it to "AFK".

[Demon6324236]

God no, I hated having to run back and forth for books. I like being able to stay at camp and continue killing rather than having to stop just to run back and rebook. Not everyone uses it to "AFK".

Yeah I know, honestly GoV would work just the same as it did before the feature was put in, which is no different than now except without the limited camp options and annoying reselecting of a page. Also this feature should have actually been in long ago, could you imagine how much easier it would have been in Qufim & Dunes without having to go back to the book every time? Its why most parties ignored the books besides the 1st page when going to a camp and the food/buffs you might get as well. Just like abyssea's xp system however, players abuse the hell out of the feature.

[Eyeballed]

God no, I hated having to run back and forth for books. I like being able to stay at camp and continue killing rather than having to stop just to run back and rebook. Not everyone uses it to "AFK".

Kinda like it was before the books were even there? *wink*

[Demon6324236]

Honestly in a way of looking at this argument what it seems to be about the same as cars & bikes. In real life we have cars, we didn't always have cars, they get us places faster than horses did, but cars are bad for the environment, that doesn't stop most people from owning and using a car. There are people in the world who disagree, they will not use cars, they walk or jog everywhere, ride a bike, they use different forms of moving, its slower, but they prefer it. Now, these people can not simply walk up to the world leaders and request that cars be against the law everywhere in the world, so that no cars are ever used again, and everyone must walk, revert back to horses or ride bikes. Or at least this is how I see it.

[Meyi]

Kinda like it was before the books were even there? *wink*

Before books we just sat at one camp and enjoyed it. There was no "Hey, I have an idea; let's kill 7 lizards then run across the zone to the bunnies and kill just one, then run back to the start of the zone to repeat! ^^"

Sometimes I skip books even now. Just depends on the camp and monster page options. A lot of them suck.

[vienne]

i wonder if the people at SE read these kinda threads, cause the only thing it proves is that alot of people who play this game cant respect eachothers opinion. it is a bit childish dont you think? these threads have little to no use and i doubt the forum is here for people to fire back and forth insults to eachother. better to spend your time in a constructive way and go do the dishes or clean your house.

[Eyeballed]

i wonder if the people at SE read these kinda threads, cause the only thing it proves is that alot of people who play this game cant respect eachothers opinion. it is a bit childish dont you think? these threads have little to no use and i doubt the forum is here for people to fire back and forth insults to eachother. better to spend your time in a constructive way and go do the dishes or clean your house.

I've done my best not to resort to insults, as much flaming as I've endured throughout this thread. :)

[Plasticleg]

Look, just never break your 50 cap (or 75) and prove to everyone how hardcore they are.
In the end, nobody cares how you got someones gets their exp or what their level is.

Pretty sure the majority of these people also thought <<Astral Flow>> <<Burn>>s were cheating.

<.<

[Eyeballed]

Look, just never break your 50 cap (or 75) and prove to everyone how hardcore they are.
In the end, nobody cares how you got someones gets their exp or what their level is.

Pretty sure the majority of these people also thought <<Astral Flow>> <<Burn>>s were cheating.

<.<

When the Ninja running Under Observation can't do his job because he's Lv99 and obviously has burned his way up, I certainly care. The other Ninja who wasn't ultra-gimp finished off his mob and had to help him through the other half of his. Almost cost us the run 3x over, if we hadn't had to carry him.

[Plasticleg]

When the Ninja running Under Observation can't do his job because he's Lv99 and obviously has burned his way up, I certainly care. The other Ninja who wasn't ultra-gimp finished off his mob and had to help him through the other half of his. Almost cost us the run 3x over, if we hadn't had to carry him.

Then you just don't invite him or tell them to their face to play another job/quit the game...
Straw man arguments are so valid!
Irrelevant examples are also great ways to defend cases.

Or you can sit them down to save them from their own lack of knowledge with the game and show them how to "do it rite"

[scaevola]

So that's what this is about?

[Eyeballed]

Then you just don't invite him or tell them to their face to play another job/quit the game...
Straw man arguments are so valid!
Irrelevant examples are also great ways to defend cases.

Or you can sit them down and save them from their own lack of knowledge with the game and show them how to "do it rite"

Just don't invite him? He was already in the group! After the fact is when it was discovered! If he'd not burned his levels, the sheer use of Utsusemi alone would have put his Ninjutsu skill where it ought to have been. Christ.

EDIT: Oh, so now I get to play captain obvious?; That he should at least stand in a corner somewhere and spam Ichi/Ni until his eyeballs fall out in order not to be gimp?

[Eyeballed]

So that's what this is about?

No scaevola, it's just an example.

[Eyeballed]

And while we're on the subject of gimp and its relation to the topic, it sickens me to no end seeing a Lv99 WHM skilling up club on Lv18 Mandragoras. And don't bother telling me they were farming. Obviously even if they wanted Saruta Cotton, they'd have no qualms in burning that THF up. Guess that might be too much to ask, too.

[scaevola]

Okay, make a classic party and I'll come WHM and level up my club skill there.

[Trisscar]

Just don't invite him? He was already in the group! After the fact is when it was discovered! If he'd not burned his levels, the sheer use of Utsusemi alone would have put his Ninjutsu skill where it ought to have been. Christ.


Here it's the archaic magic skilling system at fault. I've leveled White Mage the old fashioned way, back when people still partied in Whitegate areas. My healing skill only just recently broke 300, and my other magic skills are even lower, despite the spam. My Ninjutsu isn't that much higher than 200 despite constant spam.

Your arguments are invalid. Again.

[Trisscar]

Anyhow, yeah I agree the lower-levels were a bit harsh as well as soloing (sans-BST) at any level was punishing as far as EXP gain. I do use books when I solo, and yes it is for the buffs and pages. However, I do not agree that the pages should auto-repeat simply due to the fact that the masses have abused it to get away with, the way I see it, not playing the game. That should not even be allowed. In my book, it's simply cheating.

Remove the auto-repeat pages, slow down EXP gain in later levels, and bring back tactics to grind parties instead of this balls-to-the-wall spamming.

I solo a lot these days, a lot more than I used to. Why should I be forced to go back all the way across the zone to rebook and be penalized for someone else's misdeeds?

[Komori]

Here it's the archaic magic skilling system at fault. I've leveled White Mage the old fashioned way, back when people still partied in Whitegate areas. My healing skill only just recently broke 300, and my other magic skills are even lower, despite the spam. My Ninjutsu isn't that much higher than 200 despite constant spam.

Your arguments are invalid. Again.

That honestly sounds like you had alot of PLs. My WHM was leeched but healing and enhancing are encroaching around 350~370 and divine is around 260. So it's as people say, leeching or leveling the "right way" doesn't matter, I play WHM vigourously, I pay to have all the spells. Use my other jobs to get all of it's armor. I made an Arka IV and all that good jazz because WHM is a job I really love and care about and I adore getting praise from friends and LS members who take pride in having me as a WHM in their pocket too.

But, on another character on my old account I used to share with my brother, I was a level 62 WHM back in like 2004~06. And was actually the exact reason I didn't level WHM again before abyssea came out. I had already done the job once through all of those old zones and really didn't feel like doing it again to get to the same level.

[Trisscar]

That honestly sounds like you had alot of PLs.

Nope. And even in parties where I did have one I assist healed over the objections of the other party members. Using the same mentality I learned how to tank on Paladin by keeping hate off the rare PL I got. I was very good at holding hate on Paladin... I miss that sometimes.

But yeah, they seriously need to overhaul the skilling system. Not just the magic skilling but the whole kit and caboodle.

[FrankReynolds]

Just don't invite him? He was already in the group! After the fact is when it was discovered! If he'd not burned his levels, the sheer use of Utsusemi alone would have put his Ninjutsu skill where it ought to have been. Christ.

EDIT: Oh, so now I get to play captain obvious?; That he should at least stand in a corner somewhere and spam Ichi/Ni until his eyeballs fall out in order not to be gimp?

Shame he burned his ninja up. If he hadn't, you could have just spent the day looking for a ninja, while he sat looking for a party and then you both could have went to bed without having done anything ;)

That would have been way more fun.

[Plasticleg]

Shame he burned his ninja up. If he hadn't, you could have just spent the day looking for a ninja, while he sat looking for a party and then you both could have went to bed without having done anything ;)

That would have been way more fun.

Lol wait...they were on RDM61 for a KS99 NM...
are you sure that the problem was the under skill cap NIN?

[FrankReynolds]

Lol wait...they were on RDM61 for a KS99 NM...
are you sure that the problem was the under skill cap NIN?

I know right? Still cracking up at the 61 rdm. Wait till she get's to 99 and finds out that there is still no one to party with on red mage lol.

[Demon6324236]

When the Ninja running Under Observation can't do his job because he's Lv99 and obviously has burned his way up, I certainly care.
Lol wait...they were on RDM61 for a KS99 NM...
are you sure that the problem was the under skill cap NIN?
I know right? Still cracking up at the 61 rdm. Wait till she get's to 99 and finds out that there is still no one to party with on red mage lol.Umm~ guys... Under Observation (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Under_Observation) is a level 40 BCNM, I have no idea what level would have to do with this, or what your talking about when you say a KS99, because unless my eyes just avoided it, nothing was talked about outside of UO which is a BCNM40.

[Eyeballed]

Umm~ guys... Under Observation (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Under_Observation) is a level 40 BCNM, I have no idea what level would have to do with this, or what your talking about when you say a KS99, because unless my eyes just avoided it, nothing was talked about outside of UO which is a BCNM40.

Which pretty much says one of a few things: A lack of reading comprehension; Only skimming the post because "Eyeballed"; Too newb to know the difference. Take your pick.

[Eyeballed]

Shame he burned his ninja up. If he hadn't, you could have just spent the day looking for a ninja, while he sat looking for a party and then you both could have went to bed without having done anything ;)

That would have been way more fun.

I'd rather have gone to bed without running it. As well, I have a little thing called patience, which for many of you I strongly assume is a foreign concept.

[Plasticleg]

Umm~ guys... Under Observation (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Under_Observation) is a level 40 BCNM, I have no idea what level would have to do with this, or what your talking about when you say a KS99, because unless my eyes just avoided it, nothing was talked about outside of UO which is a BCNM40.

skipped over that...

skill level would still be irrelevant on the ninjutsu. just sounds like someone who burned it up for procs.
also, don't go on capped fights with /sh's, they usually fail.

[Eyeballed]

Here it's the archaic magic skilling system at fault. I've leveled White Mage the old fashioned way, back when people still partied in Whitegate areas. My healing skill only just recently broke 300, and my other magic skills are even lower, despite the spam. My Ninjutsu isn't that much higher than 200 despite constant spam.

Your arguments are invalid. Again.

You're seriously trying to tell me that a Lv99 Ninja should not be expected to have capped Ninjutsu on a Lv40 capped BCNM? And this is your defense? Ha!

[scaevola]

More like, "don't get mad when you lose an orb because you suggested doing a BCNM40 that wasn't Royal Jelly."

Also, yes, I would expect a NIN I was bringing to UO to have capped Ninjutsu for level 40. However, I would ask first, because I know that leveling Ninjutsu is a huge pain in the ass and has always been.

If you were justified in taking Random Shout NIN's capped skill as an article of faith in any way at all, it's that it's way more reasonable to expect him to have capped Ninjutsu now than it was back when people were doing UO pretty regularly. Care to hazard a guess as to why?

[Eyeballed]

skipped over that...

skill level would still be irrelevant on the ninjutsu. just sounds like someone who burned it up for procs.
also, don't go on capped fights with /sh's, they usually fail.

Do you know what the strategy is for this particular BCNM? It doesn't sound like you do.

[Eyeballed]

More like, "don't get mad when you lose an orb because you suggested doing a BCNM40 that wasn't Royal Jelly."

What's wrong with UO? PCC; 2x Ni; Phalanx; Refresh, etc.

[scaevola]

Nobody needs PCC. Royal Jelly has the same scrolls and is basically idiot-proof.

EDIT: Alright, I'll take that back. But who the hell are these morons still paying 400k for peacock charm?

[Eyeballed]

Nobody needs PCC. Royal Jelly has the same scrolls and is basically idiot-proof.

Nobody needs 400-500k? Nobody needs two scrolls instead of just one Ni? Woo, the logic here escapes me.

[scaevola]

RJ can be done easier with two DRGs than UO can be done with 3 of anything. Quicker turn-around for multiple runs. Fail once in either and the difference becomes moot.

I'm not the one complaining that a terrible NIN almost cost me multiple orbs, man.

[Trisscar]

You're seriously trying to tell me that a Lv99 Ninja should not be expected to have capped Ninjutsu on a Lv40 capped BCNM? And this is your defense? Ha!

In my defense you didn't exactly make yourself clear when you we're talking about ninjutsu skill levels not being at cap for another player. I still stand by my observation that the skilling system needs a complete overhaul.

[Eyeballed]

RJ can be done easier with two DRGs than UO can be done with 3 of anything. Quicker turn-around for multiple runs. Fail once in either and the difference becomes moot.

I'm not the one complaining that a terrible NIN almost cost me multiple orbs, man.

Apparently you've never done UO with 3 BLM. Stand in one spot and spam -ga. Can't get any easier than that. And it could have been just the same on your DRG DRG RDM Royal Jelly with a Red Mage that can't stick bind/gravity. Also, he would have only cost me a single orb, man.

[Plasticleg]

Nobody needs 400-500k? Nobody needs two scrolls instead of just one Ni? Woo, the logic here escapes me.

sounds liek you need a more reliant way to make gil without wasting resources, or relying on others.

[Eyeballed]

sounds liek you need a more reliant way to make gil without wasting resources, or relying on others.

Sounds like you need a new argument. I suppose your next piece of infinite wisdom is that I throw away my seals, yeah?

[Eyeballed]

In my defense you didn't exactly make yourself clear when you we're talking about ninjutsu skill levels not being at cap for another player. I still stand by my observation that the skilling system needs a complete overhaul.


When the Ninja running Under Observation can't do his job because he's Lv99 and obviously has burned his way up, I certainly care. The other Ninja who wasn't ultra-gimp finished off his mob and had to help him through the other half of his. Almost cost us the run 3x over, if we hadn't had to carry him.

I'm sorry, I did assume that people were aware this was in fact a BCNM 40, which means it is capped at Lv40. I would assume that anyone playing the game for any substantial period of time would know this one by now, along with RJ. What did you assume I was talking about?

[scaevola]

Apparently you've never done UO with 3 BLM. Stand in one spot and spam -ga. Can't get any easier than that. And it could have been just the same on your DRG DRG RDM Royal Jelly with a Red Mage that can't stick bind/gravity. Also, he would have only cost me a single orb, man.

You don't need a third person for RJ with two DRGs.

[Demon6324236]

skill level would still be irrelevant on the ninjutsu.

Actually no, Under Observation is a BCNM in which you fight 3 Hecteyes. They use a paralyze gaze often so doing a normal fight against them is bad. To make things worse its 3 people only, and 1 of them is tougher than the others. A normal strat for this fight is to have a RDM kite the large mob while the other 2 are either NIN, BLU, or BLM, and nuke the smaller ones to death with magic/ninjutsu. This is why skill does matter for this occasion, you need the skill for the magic damage the NIN is expected to use for fighting, if the NIN has low skill or is meleeing chances of failing rise due to killing slower, or being paralyzed for a good duration of the fight.

Just pointing it out, in either case, should probably pay more attention to what you are replying to. I mean no offense, just if you are skimming posts then replying wrongly it looks kinda bad for both you & the others who are trying to make a point, because then people become like Rosina and think everyone is just trying to pick on them for no reason other than to be mean.

[Plasticleg]

Sounds like you need a new argument. I suppose your next piece of infinite wisdom is that I throw away my seals, yeah?

Please stop picking fights with every respondent to this thread and take advice or leave it.
And throwing away seals is stupid; just save them up for BB items, by not using them for the chance of a chance that you'll get phalanx or utsu: ni.
I'd focus your in-game time at hitting 99 on a job that can farm dynamis (preferably solo) and gearing that, instead of PUGs for BCNMs.
But you have free will and you decide, just know that we are pointing you in more profitable directions.

[FrankReynolds]

Umm~ guys... Under Observation (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Under_Observation) is a level 40 BCNM, I have no idea what level would have to do with this, or what your talking about when you say a KS99, because unless my eyes just avoided it, nothing was talked about outside of UO which is a BCNM40.

I was just assuming that level 61 rdm didn't know / didn't discuss the strategy with the group that she didn't form (funny because I haven't seen a shout for that in probably a year) and she says she always forms her own groups. The funny thing is that I used to do that BCNM a lot for gil and I saw a lot of groups wipe to it back in the "good ole days". She's trying to blame abyssea for the guy sucking, but the truth is that he had to level to 30 without skilling before he got into abyssea. So at most you can blame abyssea for 10 levels of ninja skill ups.That shouldn't screw up a UO run, unless everyone else on the run sucks too.

TLDR; from reading her previous posts, I find her highly suspect and would likely trust a level 99 burned nin over her on red mage.


I'd rather have gone to bed without running it. As well, I have a little thing called patience, which for many of you I strongly assume is a foreign concept.

Yes, doing nothing is super fun and patience is what people should need in a video game. /sarcasm I'll personally save that patience for the DMV or the line at the bank where it is rightfully expected, not in my entertainment. You will get no credit for work ethics in a video game from me. I have a real job for that sort of thing.

Have you ever tried FFXIAH.com? They have a jeuno shout feature where you can just sit in jeuno and watch the shouts. It's just like old ffxi, only you don't have to pay a fee. You should just do that. We need more of that in the game. Or better yet, you can pay me for a game service where I provide you no entertainment and we both win :)

[Plasticleg]

Actually no, Under Observation is a BCNM in which you fight 3 Hecteyes. They use a paralyze gaze often so doing a normal fight against them is bad. To make things worse its 3 people only, and 1 of them is tougher than the others. A normal strat for this fight is to have a RDM kite the large mob while the other 2 are either NIN, BLU, or BLM, and nuke the smaller ones to death with magic/ninjutsu. This is why skill does matter for this occasion, you need the skill for the magic damage the NIN is expected to use for fighting, if the NIN has low skill or is meleeing chances of failing rise due to killing slower, or being paralyzed for a good duration of the fight.

Just pointing it out, in either case, should probably pay more attention to what you are replying to. I mean no offense, just if you are skimming posts then replying wrongly it looks kinda bad for both you & the others who are trying to make a point, because then people become like Rosina and think everyone is just trying to pick on them for no reason other than to be mean.

Response.


You don't need a third person for RJ with two DRGs.

There we go.

[Trisscar]

I'm sorry, I did assume that people were aware this was in fact a BCNM 40, which means it is capped at Lv40. I would assume that anyone playing the game for any substantial period of time would know this one by now, along with RJ. What did you assume I was talking about?

I didn't assume anything because this is the first time hearing of Under Observation, whereas I have done Royal Jelly hundreds of times. Based upon the description I read on it it seems like something you don't have to try very hard to fail at and still has nothing to do with how you got your levels. The two things are entirely unrelated.

[Demon6324236]

Response.



There we go.

I'm not sure how Royal Jellys has anything to do with UO when the subject was about a gimp NIN being the cause of a potential failure. The point of a NIN having low skills was somewhat valid. Only to the point the low skills is what caused it, not abyssea, nor GoV. I was and am simply attempting to point out that it was kinda stupid you 2 seemed to make comments based on reading the post only partly and skipping over the actual BCNM in question, or how to do it. Also from my experience, UO has had better drops for me than RJ, however this is of little relevance, if you are disputing the difference between why to do certain ones, I myself always do UO with 2BLUs & 1RDM, because there is better chances for drops, or even 2 rare drops.

[Arcon]

Sounds like you need a new argument. I suppose your next piece of infinite wisdom is that I throw away my seals, yeah?

While the arguments against you are becoming increasingly retarded, the reason for that is not that you're right but because you refuse to accept the majority's opinion and call it a day. From that people conclude a lack of insight and intelligence on your part, which people would normally brush off with some sarcastic and vaguely insulting comments. However, your stubborness in this regard makes them increasingly desperate and as such they tend to lower their standards to deal with someone like you. That, sadly, leads to a lack of proper arguments and ad hominem attacks (despite some of them being justified, but still not a pretty sight).

The only one argument people need against you is that your suggestion would be infringing on their ability to enjoy the game. Your method would ruin a big part of the game for a majority of players, and that's why it shouldn't happen. There's nothing at all you can say against that.

[Eyeballed]

Please stop picking fights with every respondent to this thread and take advice or leave it.
And throwing away seals is stupid; just save them up for BB items, by not using them for the chance of a chance that you'll get phalanx or utsu: ni.
I'd focus your in-game time at hitting 99 on a job that can farm dynamis (preferably solo) and gearing that, instead of PUGs for BCNMs.
But you have free will and you decide, just know that we are pointing you in more profitable directions.

I'm trying to be nice. Really. Black Belt items are from Kindred Seal runs, if I remember correctly. We're talking about a BCNM/BSNM, which is commonly known to require Beastmen Seals. And I'll ask again, do you suggest I throw out said seals, as they are obviously worthless?

[Eyeballed]

I was just assuming that level 61 rdm didn't know / didn't discuss the strategy with the group that she didn't form (funny because I haven't seen a shout for that in probably a year) and she says she always forms her own groups. The funny thing is that I used to do that BCNM a lot for gil and I saw a lot of groups wipe to it back in the "good ole days". She's trying to blame abyssea for the guy sucking, but the truth is that he had to level to 30 without skilling before he got into abyssea. So at most you can blame abyssea for 10 levels of ninja skill ups.That shouldn't screw up a UO run, unless everyone else on the run sucks too.

TLDR; from reading her previous posts, I find her highly suspect and would likely trust a level 99 burned nin over her on red mage.



Yes, doing nothing is super fun and patience is what people should need in a video game. /sarcasm I'll personally save that patience for the DMV or the line at the bank where it is rightfully expected, not in my entertainment. You will get no credit for work ethics in a video game from me. I have a real job for that sort of thing.

Have you ever tried FFXIAH.com? They have a jeuno shout feature where you can just sit in jeuno and watch the shouts. It's just like old ffxi, only you don't have to pay a fee. You should just do that. We need more of that in the game. Or better yet, you can pay me for a game service where I provide you no entertainment and we both win :)

This is so full of holes I'm not even going to bother. Meh.

[scaevola]

You can convert seals now; 3 of any 1 type to 1 of any other.

If you have a solid regular BCNM40 group it's worth hanging on to Beastmen's, but otherwise KSNM99's where it's at.

Not that there's really any reason you'd know this, of course, but the guy who does the exchanges stands right next to Shami so if you're doing a lot of BCNM40s you'd have probably figured this out by accident.


I'm not sure how Royal Jellys has anything to do with UO when the subject was about a gimp NIN being the cause of a potential failure.

At the risk of glibness, it was the decision to do Under Observation rather than Royal Jelly that was the cause of a potential failure.

I think it's pretty self-evident that if you decide to put people in situations where they are more likely to fail than other, equally-productive situations, you must accept responsibility for when they ultimately fail even if there's a chance they (or a more competent somebody else) might not have, but I've met a lot of MBAs who can't wrap their heads around this so I'll try not to judge FFXI players for not getting it either.

[Twille]

The only one argument people need against you is that your suggestion would be infringing on their ability to enjoy the game. Your method would ruin a big part of the game for a majority of players, and that's why it shouldn't happen. There's nothing at all you can say against that.

There shouldn't be anything to be said, but that was true 30 pages ago and somehow this thread is still here.

[FrankReynolds]

This is so full of holes I'm not even going to bother. Meh.

About as many holes as your "I didn't realize that the ninja who didn't have Utsusemi: Ni yet might be a gimp" story.

[Demon6324236]

I'm trying to be nice. Really. Black Belt items are from Kindred Seal runs, if I remember correctly. We're talking about a BCNM/BSNM, which is commonly known to require Beastmen Seals. And I'll ask again, do you suggest I throw out said seals, as they are obviously worthless?

This page should assist you. (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Shemo)

[Eyeballed]

At the risk of glibness, it was the decision to do Under Observation rather than Royal Jelly that was the cause of a potential failure.

I think it's pretty self-evident that if you decide to put people in situations where they are more likely to fail than other, equally-productive situations, you must accept responsibility for when they ultimately fail even if there's a chance they (or a more competent somebody else) might not have, but I've met a lot of MBAs who can't wrap their heads around this so I'll try not to judge FFXI players for not getting it either.

I'm speechless. I didn't "put" this guy anywhere. He joined knowing full well what was expected of him. He was even asked if he knew the setup/strategy, which was affirmed. What in God's name are you talking about??! You're not even entertaining the issue we're talking about.

[scaevola]

Sure you did. You decided to shout for Under Observation, which is substantially more difficult than a similarly-situated BCNM with roughly equivalent rewards. Having done so, you lost.

This does not necessarily mean you shouldn't have done UO rather than RJ, but you absolutely shouldn't be coming here to blame book-burning and Abyssea and God knows what else for something that was ultimately your decision and thus your responsibility.

This is called "leadership".

[Trisscar]

I'm speechless. I didn't "put" this guy anywhere. He joined knowing full well what was expected of him. He was even asked if he knew the setup/strategy, which was affirmed. What in God's name are you talking about??! You're not even entertaining the issue we're talking about.
You have a situation where you went into a BCNM with a total stranger whose skills and abilities are unknown to you and the fight is more likely to wind up in a failure than another, easier fight. All this for an extra 400k and a useless necklace?

There's a failure here alright, and it has nothing to do with the current leveling system.

[Camiie]

When the Ninja running Under Observation can't do his job because he's Lv99 and obviously has burned his way up, I certainly care. The other Ninja who wasn't ultra-gimp finished off his mob and had to help him through the other half of his. Almost cost us the run 3x over, if we hadn't had to carry him.

So, one NIN is bad and the world is ending? Ok...

You know there were loads and loads of bad and mediocre players back when the game was "hard" and leveling took ages. There were people who sucked and cost people wins, gil, and XP back then too. If the old system was so much better at training players than the current one, how do you explain that? Shouldn't the majority of players have been highly skilled killing machines ready to take on any challenge? They weren't though. If the system was so great, why did it fail so many people?

[Nala]

In their defense I'm not reading any of eye's posts as they hurt my brain too much to bother, I've only read the responses to them and am able to get the gist of what s/he is saying enough so that I feel no need to cause myself brain damage.

Also I tend to overlook double/triple posters, at least rosina has a semi valid excuse(only very marginally...)

[Eyeballed]

Sure you did. You decided to shout for Under Observation, which is substantially more difficult than a similarly-situated BCNM with roughly equivalent rewards. Having done so, you lost.

This does not necessarily mean you shouldn't have done UO rather than RJ, but you absolutely shouldn't be coming here to blame book-burning and Abyssea and God knows what else for something that was ultimately your decision and thus your responsibility.

This is called "leadership".


You have a situation where you went into a BCNM with a total stranger whose skills and abilities are unknown to you and the fight is more likely to wind up in a failure than another, easier fight. All this for an extra 400k and a useless necklace?

There's a failure here alright, and it has nothing to do with the current leveling system.

In case you both missed it, this isn't about the title of a BCNM, the jobs used in said BCNM, or the drops found in that BCNM. And as such, we can move the discussion back on track with my original point being that said participant took up the responsibility offered to him knowing full well what was to be expected of him and his character's abilities. What you two are proposing is it's my fault he wasn't prepared, and/or that this level of un-preparedness should have somehow been expected.

I don't know about you guys, but once upon a time, I only had to ask if members were familiar with the strategy of the run - not if one of my members' A-skills was severely under-skilled. But, here we are no less; The lot of you defending your stance at any cost. Quite a shame.

And Trisscar, just FYI, the Peacock Charm is completely sell-able and is far from the term 'useless'. How long have you been playing this game again?

Scaevola, just out of curiosity, what set-up did you normally run Under Observation with and why?

[FrankReynolds]

In case you both missed it, this isn't about the title of a BCNM, the jobs used in said BCNM, or the drops found in that BCNM. And as such, we can move the discussion back on track with my original point being that said participant took up the responsibility offered to him knowing full well what was to be expected of him and his character's abilities. What you two are proposing is it's my fault he wasn't prepared, and/or that this level of un-preparedness should have somehow been expected.

I don't know about you guys, but once upon a time, I only had to ask if members were familiar with the strategy of the run - not if one of my members' A-skills was severely under-skilled. But, here we are no less; The lot of you defending your stance at any cost. Quite a shame.


So the ninja was not at fault for lying about his skill / knowledge. Abyssea forced him to do it. Okay, sounds plausible.

[Eyeballed]

So the ninja was not at fault for lying about his skill / knowledge. Abyssea forced him to do it. Okay, sounds plausible.

In all reality it probably has more to do with Gusgen & CN than Abyssea as the skill cap in question is only Lv40 (130?). The bigger point being if he had not the avenue to surpass what is essentially playing his job, then this would not have been an issue. Period.

[Trisscar]

In all reality it probably has more to do with Gusgen & CN than Abyssea as the skill cap in question is only Lv40 (130?). The bigger point being if he had not the avenue to surpass what is essentially playing his job, then this would not have been an issue. Period.

Except, as we continuely told you, leveling a job has zero impact on whether a person has learned their job or not. There is a world of difference between (say for example) blink tanking for an experience party and doing an Under Observation run.

[Eyeballed]

Except, as we continuely told you, leveling a job has zero impact on whether a person has learned their job or not. There is a world of difference between (say for example) blink tanking for an experience party and doing an Under Observation run.

For crying out loud will you please stop trying to derail the point I'm making. He knew exactly what he was supposed to do, what was expected of him, and he would have done it - but because his skill was so gimp, he could not. No amount of knowledge or effort on his part could change that!

It's like you people are now not even trying to follow what I'm saying; You're just making up your own arguments so you don't have to agree with me in any capacity.

[scaevola]

Unpack that. If he'd leveled the classic way, he would have had his skill appropriately leveled?

That's a pretty big assumption!

[Mirage]

If he'd leveled the classic way, he might not have had nin past 50 yet. Do you think a 50 nin would have spent hours skilling up yet, or do you think he would start doing that as he hit the cap?

Sorry Eyeballed, I don't think the nin would have been any better if you had it your way.

[Plasticleg]

In all reality it probably has more to do with Gusgen & CN than Abyssea as the skill cap in question is only Lv40 (130?). The bigger point being if he had not the avenue to surpass what is essentially playing his job, then this would not have been an issue. Period.

But you were the healer in the situation and everyone died.

It's possible that an uncapped healing magic, lack of MP, lack of cure gear, or anything else, would have been your fault and would contribute to the fall of your run. Not one player does make a trio. I'd make sure those were on cap and then retry it again with a different ninja.

Good luck!

[Eyeballed]

Unpack that. If he'd leveled the classic way, he would have had his skill appropriately leveled?

That's a pretty big assumption!

Not even. I can't even believe you had the audacity to say what you just did. Listen to yourself - "A Lv99 leveling the 'old way' would not have an A-skill capped at Lv40 or near 130+ skill. Like I just said, by now you're all disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing and not even trying to hear anything. Not that you really were to start with.

What you're saying is that I'm assuming a BLM in 2005 could have gotten to Lv75 basically without nuking. Preposterous.

[Mirage]

I think most people in here are listening about as much as you are.

[Eyeballed]

But you were the healer in the situation and everyone died.

It's possible that an uncapped healing magic, lack of MP, lack of cure gear, or anything else, would have been your fault and would contribute to the fall of your run. Not one player does make a trio. I'd make sure those were on cap and then retry it again with a different ninja.

Good luck!

Remind me again who died? Sorry, I guess I missed that.

[Eyeballed]

If he'd leveled the classic way, he might not have had nin past 50 yet. Do you think a 50 nin would have spent hours skilling up yet, or do you think he would start doing that as he hit the cap?

Sorry Eyeballed, I don't think the nin would have been any better if you had it your way.

Ninja starts getting Ni nukes and debuffs around Lv41; Do your job right and there won't be any of this manual-skillup corner-standing.

[scaevola]

Ninja starts getting Ni nukes and debuffs around Lv41; Do your job right and there won't be any of this manual-skillup corner-standing.

No. I actually leveled NIN to the mid-50s in 2005 and exercised due diligence in keeping Ninjutsu capped. Until you actually get those Ni nukes, NIN lacks a reasonable way to skill up ninjutsu; Ichi nukes do insignificant damage and have a long cast time, so it's impossible to do reasonable damage (and thus tank) with them. Even if you could, you still don't even get THOSE until 15, at which point you're horribly behind skill already. You can only get skillups off unresisted spells, meaning you have to devote solo time to getting Ninjutsu close to cap before you can start landing the unresisted spells on ITs you'll need to keep it up while leveling.

There was, simply put, no way to level ninjutsu in an XP party without devoting possibly tens of hours to the extremely expensive and unrewarding process of leveling it specifically. It is perhaps not unreasonable to expect a NIN to make an effort to leveling ninjutsu but at no point could that have ever happened without substantial extracurricular effort, 6-man parties or no.

If you wanted to make the case for old school partying, ninjutsu skill is basically the worst possible evidence you could have used.

[Eyeballed]

No. I actually leveled NIN to the mid-50s in 2005 and exercised due diligence in keeping Ninjutsu capped. Until you actually get those Ni nukes, NIN lacks a reasonable way to skill up ninjutsu; Ichi nukes do insignificant damage and have a long cast time, so it's impossible to do reasonable damage (and thus tank) with them. Even if you could, you still don't even get THOSE until 15, at which point you're horribly behind skill already. You can only get skillups off unresisted spells, meaning you have to devote solo time to getting Ninjutsu close to cap before you can start landing the unresisted spells on ITs you'll need to keep it up while leveling.

There was, simply put, no way to level ninjutsu in an XP party without devoting possibly tens of hours to the extremely expensive and unrewarding process of leveling it specifically. It is perhaps not unreasonable to expect a NIN to make an effort to leveling ninjutsu but at no point could that have ever happened without substantial extracurricular effort, 6-man parties or no.

If you wanted to make the case for old school partying, ninjutsu skill is basically the worst possible evidence you could have used.

Please, read this carefully. If I had some crayons and a helmet, I'd draw you a picture:

NINJA LV99

[scaevola]

I was not the one who brought up ninjutsu as an example of how old XP styles made skilling up more fluid.

Ninjutsu is not only expensive to level but also generally lacks the sort of spammable self-buffs others use to level magic skills and does not get practical skill-up spells for a very long time. I wouldn't condone making it to level 99 with 100 skill but I seriously doubt old-school XP would have made this particular guy more inclined to keep it capped.

If it had really become a problem, it is much more likely he would have stopped playing NIN entirely, which is only a good result if you're a psychopath.

[FrankReynolds]

In all reality it probably has more to do with Gusgen & CN than Abyssea as the skill cap in question is only Lv40 (130?). The bigger point being if he had not the avenue to surpass what is essentially playing his job, then this would not have been an issue. Period.

Pretty much this:

Except, as we continuely told you, leveling a job has zero impact on whether a person has learned their job or not. There is a world of difference between (say for example) blink tanking for an experience party and doing an Under Observation run.

You will not come anywhere near capping ninjitsu just by using shadows and you will find very little use for casting anything else in an exp party on the way to 40 (or even 99 for that matter).

Your right about it not being an issue though. Like I said earlier, if he hadn't burned his ninja up, you wouldn't have this issue because you would have done nothing instead of going on a run.

If you would rather do nothing, then no changes need to be made to the game. You don't even need the game for that matter. As I also said earlier, there is a free jeuno chat watch window on FFXIAH.com. You don't even have to pay for a FFXI account to sit in town and do nothing.

Basically the guy lied to you and he sucked, but you chose to blame an arbitrary game mechanic for his behavior instead of him. I would really like to borrow some gil from you. I'm curious to see if you will blame the auction house or the magian moogles when I don't pay you back.'

Edit:


Please, read this carefully. If I had some crayons and a helmet, I'd draw you a picture:

NINJA LV99

Read this carefully: His ninja would probably not even be high enough to do the BCNM without having abyssea burned it.

[Mirage]

That last part made me smile, Frank :o.

[Modoru]

What you're saying is that I'm assuming a BLM in 2005 could have gotten to Lv75 basically without nuking. Preposterous.

Wait, I didn't get the memo where NIN was now a nuker with an extensive array of spammable spells that don't use up tools [which are limited] and an array of self-buffs to constantly spam in order to keep his skills leveled! This is good news for me! brb let me go spam the elemental wheel without tools to skill up, I might be done next year.

No offense, but comparing a NIN to a BLM is severely fallacious. NIN honestly has absolutely no need to use any ninjutsu at low levels other than Utsusemi, and even then the skills you obtain from Utsusemi are few and far in between. If you're expecting someone to spam their elemental wheel in an XP party instead of tanking normally, you have absolutely no idea how a ninja works [I'm inclined to believe].

Even then, post-50, your only real use for the elemental wheel is... procs?

...Where do you use procs anyway? Abyssea?

...VW? Gosh, I guess we have a problem then. I guess I'll just waste millions of shihei to get my skills capped then!

In all seriousness, a career ninja doesn't get his Ninjutsu capped very easily at all. Please realize this. Don't blame him for not having them capped. I understand you made a mistake in assuming he was somehow an amazing player that would effortlessly win the BCNM for you, but you'd be very surprised how many people suck at some of their jobs. Lack of knowledge implies lack of training, lack of training could easily make you aware that they do not spend a lot of time using the job, therefore their skills will be... lacking [redundancy!]?

Oh, and I've had my ninja for a long time, I still haven't finished capping ninjutsu. Sure, I have it past subjob level, but it took a very long time.

[Doombringer]

i returned because of abyssea. (well i returned out of curiosity, i STAYED because of abyssea) now that abyssea is over, i've left again.

i dunno where this "silent majority" of aby haters are. all my friends quit LONG before aby (i was the last holdout.) and i don't think i've met one player in game who hated aby. at least none ever mentioned it to me... and the fact that i suddenly had people to play with again makes me think they liked it.

no bullshit, i've met more PRO-rdmmelee players than ANTI-aby players. i'm fairly certain they're imaginary. even on these forums, which include players from every server at once, we get like... what, 5 of them?

[Eyeballed]

I was not the one who brought up ninjutsu as an example of how old XP styles made skilling up more fluid.

Ninjutsu is not only expensive to level but also generally lacks the sort of spammable self-buffs others use to level magic skills and does not get practical skill-up spells for a very long time. I wouldn't condone making it to level 99 with 100 skill but I seriously doubt old-school XP would have made this particular guy more inclined to keep it capped.

If it had really become a problem, it is much more likely he would have stopped playing NIN entirely, which is only a good result if you're a psychopath.

You seriously doubt? Speaks volumes to me.

[Eyeballed]

Pretty much this:

You will not come anywhere near capping ninjitsu just by using shadows and you will find very little use for casting anything else in an exp party on the way to 40 (or even 99 for that matter).

Edit:

Read this carefully: His ninja would probably not even be high enough to do the BCNM without having abyssea burned it.

I started to respond, but then I remembered I'm talking to someone who didn't know what Under Observation was in the first place. Silly me.

[Eyeballed]

Wait, I didn't get the memo where NIN was now a nuker with an extensive array of spammable spells that don't use up tools [which are limited] and an array of self-buffs to constantly spam in order to keep his skills leveled! This is good news for me! brb let me go spam the elemental wheel without tools to skill up, I might be done next year.

No offense, but comparing a NIN to a BLM is severely fallacious. NIN honestly has absolutely no need to use any ninjutsu at low levels other than Utsusemi, and even then the skills you obtain from Utsusemi are few and far in between. If you're expecting someone to spam their elemental wheel in an XP party instead of tanking normally, you have absolutely no idea how a ninja works [I'm inclined to believe].

Even then, post-50, your only real use for the elemental wheel is... procs?

...Where do you use procs anyway? Abyssea?

...VW? Gosh, I guess we have a problem then. I guess I'll just waste millions of shihei to get my skills capped then!

In all seriousness, a career ninja doesn't get his Ninjutsu capped very easily at all. Please realize this. Don't blame him for not having them capped. I understand you made a mistake in assuming he was somehow an amazing player that would effortlessly win the BCNM for you, but you'd be very surprised how many people suck at some of their jobs. Lack of knowledge implies lack of training, lack of training could easily make you aware that they do not spend a lot of time using the job, therefore their skills will be... lacking [redundancy!]?

Oh, and I've had my ninja for a long time, I still haven't finished capping ninjutsu. Sure, I have it past subjob level, but it took a very long time.

Ninja was my 3rd job to 75 some time ago. Sure, it was very expensive to play, but that fact bears no weight with the fact that myself and every Ninja since had been able to do what was asked of this guy. This is the first time I've encountered it, really.

As far as "NIN spells are unnecessary", I can tell you that's not true, either. I did use shuriken from Lv19 onward, all of my debuffs and the full wheel on my way up. Doing so, I could tank without a THF in party. Yeah, it was expensive, but if you can't afford to do it right then don't do it.

When was the last time you tanked on Ninja in a Lv12-54 classic grind party?

[Arcon]

I started to respond, but then I remembered I'm talking to someone who didn't know what Under Observation was in the first place. Silly me.

Now you've lost any and all priviledges of accusing other people of running out of arguments.

[Modoru]

I got to 65 on NIN nearing the end of Meripo era, so I can tell you, I tanked quite often. I did not need the wheel.

[Eyeballed]

I got to 65 on NIN nearing the end of Meripo era, so I can tell you, I tanked quite often. I did not need the wheel.

I just happened to say shuriken, debuffs and the wheel. I used all 3 just to be sure. So you're saying you did just fine with provoke and TP spam? And why did you stop at 65?

[Eyeballed]

Now you've lost any and all priviledges of accusing other people of running out of arguments.

Oh no, lol. Just tired of wasting my energy on people who are being deliberately obtuse.

[Demon6324236]

Oh no, lol. Just tired of wasting my energy on people who are being deliberately obtuse.Sorry to tell you but looking at what you said...
I started to respond, but then I remembered I'm talking to someone who didn't know what Under Observation was in the first place. Silly me.Are you not the same with current end game? You speak of how bad it is, how your leveling went the way of the dinosaurs but you have never done current endgame so far as we have heard from you. Meaning that you cant really say much about Abyssea being bad, VW being bad, or anything endgame being bad, because you have yet to try it. They don't know what UO is, but you have never tried these contents either so really what does that say about your end of the argument?

[Eyeballed]

Sorry to tell you but looking at what you said...Are you not the same with current end game? You speak of how bad it is, how your leveling went the way of the dinosaurs but you have never done current endgame so far as we have heard from you. Meaning that you cant really say much about Abyssea being bad, VW being bad, or anything endgame being bad, because you have yet to try it. They don't know what UO is, but you have never tried these contents either so really what does that say about your end of the argument?

Because I'm not arguing against endgame, that's why! I'm arguing against book-burning, afk progression, and the destruction of any need for party tactics that were once in place.

[Demon6324236]

Because I'm not arguing against endgame, that's why! I'm arguing against book-burning, afk progression, and the destruction of any need for party tactics that were once in place.

You argue against Abyssea(afk progression), which is a form of end game. A simple way to say it is I agree, leveling while doing nothing is bad, if your leveling you should be doing something. But thats the extent Ill agree, keying is ok, GoV is ok, rest is fine, just not getting something for nothing. Now on the other hand I make 1 exception to that, which is FCs and their sort. You work for the money you have every reason to level a job while not playing because you did play for the time you had to obtain said money and thus earned it.

Also while you may not argue against Endgame directly let me remind you much of endgame would be even more impossible to do without everyone being so high of level so fast because it would limit job options and available players. VW is starting to die again on my server already, and I think if leveling wasn't how it is now, it would be even worse for it, not to mention Legion, Nyzul, and all of the like. The game is admittedly not for midgame anymore, endgame is all it is, and all it should probably be after 10 years.

[Eyeballed]

You argue against Abyssea(afk progression), which is a form of end game. A simple way to say it is I agree, leveling while doing nothing is bad, if your leveling you should be doing something. But thats the extent Ill agree, keying is ok, GoV is ok, rest is fine, just not getting something for nothing. Now on the other hand I make 1 exception to that, which is FCs and their sort. You work for the money you have every reason to level a job while not playing because you did play for the time you had to obtain said money and thus earned it.

Also while you may not argue against Endgame directly let me remind you much of endgame would be even more impossible to do without everyone being so high of level so fast because it would limit job options and available players. VW is starting to die again on my server already, and I think if leveling wasn't how it is now, it would be even worse for it, not to mention Legion, Nyzul, and all of the like. The game is admittedly not for midgame anymore, endgame is all it is, and all it should probably be after 10 years.

Maybe your definition of Endgame differs from mine, but the way I define it is "What you do after you hit level cap".

[Eyeballed]

And by the by, just browsing ffxiclopedia doing some of my own NIN scroll quests, I happened on upon this:

Ninja: Doing it Right (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ninja_-_Doing_it_right).

Which pretty much re-affirms everything I've said about the job.

[Demon6324236]

Maybe your definition of Endgame differs from mine, but the way I define it is "What you do after you hit level cap".

Yes much of Abyssea is done after cap. As I said as well, the game is now focused on endgame not midgame, which is leveling. Midgame is mostly dead, which is what bothers you. I understand that, but the game has been going 10 years, I think this is the reason endgame has been put on focus. Rather than trying to make new players go through from the start to end slowly they allow a fast progression to the end now so that you may begin endgame with the other players not to long after starting. By that I mean only a 1~3 months, not 8~12 months as before.

[Eyeballed]

Yes much of Abyssea is done after cap. As I said as well, the game is now focused on endgame not midgame, which is leveling. Midgame is mostly dead, which is what bothers you. I understand that, but the game has been going 10 years, I think this is the reason endgame has been put on focus. Rather than trying to make new players go through from the start to end slowly they allow a fast progression to the end now so that you may begin endgame with the other players not to long after starting. By that I mean only a 1~3 months, not 8~12 months as before.

Mid-game should not be dead. Level cap gear should not be the apex of progression. MMO developers seem to be moving in this direction, and that's fine if they want to take that developmental stance in order to appease these kinds of players for the sake of (potentially) fattening their wallets. If this is to be the case, then I only ask they stop misleading the rest of us and remove the acronym of "RPG" from the game's title.

And if anything, they should not have changed this game so drastically mid-run and let it die an honorable death.

[Demon6324236]

remove the acronym of "RPG" from the game's title.In an effort to prove a point I used Bing search(my commmon search engine)to look up what the definition of an RPG is, as you wish this not to be called a RPG due to the leveling being cut down. I will be listing the 1st 3 results, and their idea of what makes a game, a RPG.

In my 1st result (http://www.rpgfan.com/editorials/old/1998/0007.html) I got this page. Now myself I saw it discribe not just RPGs, but many genres of games. But if you get to the main part of speaking about RPGs you find this paragraph...
What is a Role Playing Game? Personally, I like to define a Role Playing Game as a game that MUST, ABSOLUTELY have three elements. One is a statistical setup for characters that describe certain skills/aspects of that character. Two, it must have some method of increasing and strengthening those statistics (usually but not necessarily by way of the experience/level system). Three, it must have a menu-driven combat system that utilizes the skills/aspects of the characters. Given there are other elements of RPGs that I'll leave out because of their obvious nature, these are the elements that are required for a game to be labeled RPG.Now lets look at this list. We have the 1st thing that is required, "a statistical setup for characters that describe certain skills/aspects of that character" sounds alot like the races & job selection, so we have that. Next up is "it must have some method of increasing and strengthening those statistics" we have alot of gear, and endgame is mostly about us getting said gear, so we seem to have that as well. Last is "It must have a menu-driven combat system that utilizes the skills/aspects of the characters" we have this, the interface that defines the game as a RPG. So the 1st of my 3 pages I will list/talk about, says this is in fact a RPG.

My 2nd result (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game) is none other than Wikipedia. Now while there is no clean cut guide lines that it gives, most of what is said implies that the main thing that makes a game a RPG, is a story, and that the player be a part of said story, and affecting it as a plot point. Spoilers inside of the quote box!
In FFXI we are the main character through all story lines, we are there for the battle against the Zilart, in Tu'Lia, we fight by Prishe's side against Promathia, we stand up against the powers of Odin & Alexander, and we even fight for our worlds right to exist against Lady Lilith. Not to mention Shantotto's crazy incident, the Kupo d'Etat, and the Crystalline Prophecy, and we took up arms to fight a hoard in an alternate version of our own world, where we lost the battle of Promathia.We are very involved in the happenings in the story, and while we do not make choices that effect said story, we are still a part of it. Being a part of the story in such a way, I believe, qualifies FFXI as a RPG, by Wikipedia's definition.

The last result (http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/R/RPG.html) was very short, nothing as detailed as the others, but is a very clean and cut definition of RPG. Now the 1st is unrelated to FFXI, its related to PC terms, however the 2nd is...
Short for role-playing game, it is a game genre where one or more players adopt a role and act it out in a virtual reality. Usually in an RPG game, you will set out on an adventure or quest, and multiplayer RPG games allows gamers to complete these quests with other gamers as allies over the Internet or as a LAN game. Now we have quests, and missions. We have adventures through these, and so this seems to also qualify FFXI, as a genuine RPG.

I state all of this because, FFXI is a RPG game, and a MMO, thus a MMORPG, and nothing should change that, or its title as one.

[Eyeballed]

In an effort to prove a point I used Bing search(my commmon search engine)to look up what the definition of an RPG is, as you wish this not to be called a RPG due to the leveling being cut down. I will be listing the 1st 3 results, and their idea of what makes a game, a RPG.

In my 1st result (http://www.rpgfan.com/editorials/old/1998/0007.html) I got this page. Now myself I saw it discribe not just RPGs, but many genres of games. But if you get to the main part of speaking about RPGs you find this paragraph...Now lets look at this list. We have the 1st thing that is required, "a statistical setup for characters that describe certain skills/aspects of that character" sounds alot like the races & job selection, so we have that. Next up is "it must have some method of increasing and strengthening those statistics" we have alot of gear, and endgame is mostly about us getting said gear, so we seem to have that as well. Last is "It must have a menu-driven combat system that utilizes the skills/aspects of the characters" we have this, the interface that defines the game as a RPG. So the 1st of my 3 pages I will list/talk about, says this is in fact a RPG.

My 2nd result (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game) is none other than Wikipedia. Now while there is no clean cut guide lines that it gives, most of what is said implies that the main thing that makes a game a RPG, is a story, and that the player be a part of said story, and affecting it as a plot point. Spoilers inside of the quote box! We are very involved in the happenings in the story, and while we do not make choices that effect said story, we are still a part of it. Being a part of the story in such a way, I believe, qualifies FFXI as a RPG, by Wikipedia's definition.

The last result (http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/R/RPG.html) was very short, nothing as detailed as the others, but is a very clean and cut definition of RPG. Now the 1st is unrelated to FFXI, its related to PC terms, however the 2nd is...Now we have quests, and missions. We have adventures through these, and so this seems to also qualify FFXI, as a genuine RPG.

I state all of this because, FFXI is a RPG game, and a MMO, thus a MMORPG, and nothing should change that, or its title as one.

So essentially, you're saying they could remove experience points completely and begin the game at cap (remove level-based progression)? The first example seemed out-right a personal opinion, but I'll let it slide. Actually found the site you're referring to in my own search, btw.

Your second point sounds a lot like this: See First Paragraph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_game).

While EXP and level-based progression might not define the genre exclusively, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find such a thing in a game that didn't claim to be an RPG.

Other links regarding the debate over the "true definition":

Inventory Management (http://www.geekstudies.org/2010/02/the-very-definition-of-an-rpg)
Fantasy Character/World Interaction (http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/role-playing-game-RPG)
Self-improvement by Proxy (http://sinisterdesign.net/?p=785)

"Commercial interest in Japanese role playing games steadily declined throughout the latter half of the 2000s, and critics generally considered newer entries in established franchises, such as Final Fantasy XIII and its sequel, to be inferior to their predecessors. Japanese game developer Hideo Kojima, the director of the Metal Gear Solid series of games, claimed that Japanese developers lacked the global outlook and modern technological feats to survive the industry and needed to catch up with Western developers."[270] (Quote pulled from this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Eastern_role-playing_video_games) Wikipedia.)

[Slaxx]

Castlevania II had experience points and a leveling system. I would be hard pressed to call that an RPG. I'm sure if I cared I could remember other examples.

Oh, and The Legend of Zelda II had those same elements. It's a bit closer but I've never personally considered the Zelda games to be RPGs (I know many people will disagree, this is only a personal opinion).

[Demon6324236]

After reading much of what you gave me (admittedly I have a memory problem, so my eyes may have gazed over things I do not recall) I did not see anything saying a RPG had to have leveling or exp at all in the game, for it to be a RPG. I will give you credit, most RPGs do feature it, so it is a very common trait. However these also list off many traits games hold so often they become a defining piece of the genre such as items, combat statistics, and story. However in none of these pages did I see it say that leveling itself was a defining factor in RPGs, rather stat progression is, and as I (and many others) have pointed out, endgame does fill this role very well. In fact I would actually say endgame is almost similar in a way because content does change in terms of difficulty, and thus you normally must complete one and attain gear to make another more likely or better your odds. Much the same as with leveling you can fight things at a lower level, but the higher level you are the better your chances of success. But this is simply my opinion on it.
"Commercial interest in Japanese role playing games steadily declined throughout the latter half of the 2000s, and critics generally considered newer entries in established franchises, such as Final Fantasy XIII and its sequel, to be inferior to their predecessors. Japanese game developer Hideo Kojima, the director of the Metal Gear Solid series of games, claimed that Japanese developers lacked the global outlook and modern technological feats to survive the industry and needed to catch up with Western developers."[270] (Quote pulled from this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Eastern_role-playing_video_games) Wikipedia.)I find this quote to be interesting. Final Fantasy XIII was complained about for the reason that it was to linear of a game, and while this is the case, it was mostly solved in the sequel, but not to the normal extent of a Final Fantasy game. But both of these gave leveling and experience point systems. While they may be seen as inferior to most fans when compared to other FF titles, I can not see leveling as much to do with it, as it featured the same type of progression, with little change.

It says that they need to catch up with western developers, which includes Blizzard, the makers of WoW. Now seeing as this is the case, I can understand why people make comparisons between the 2 in terms of leveling, however maybe this is an example of Japanese game devs making changes in how their games are to fit what apparently is considered "modern." Now this change is what you do not like, which is why I wonder why you gave this quote. It seems to show just why they would change the game's progression ideals so vastly, and would look to actually counter your argument on why to do this in my opinion as it shows just why they would, because they are doing it to be more modern with their game.

This is simply how I have seen it myself, I could be misinterpreting some parts, but this is my general ideal on it myself. But in the end I think it comes down to 1 thing, it seems many people have different ideas of what a RPG may be or contain. As such, we can not be sure of what SE's views on it are, or even if they are the ones who chose for it to be seen as a MMORPG. For this reason I think it is somewhat unreasonable to ask them to change which genre it is seen as, being their opinion on it may greatly differ, and they may not even be the ones who gave it such a title in the 1st place.

[Demon6324236]

Castlevania II had experience points and a leveling system. I would be hard pressed to call that an RPG. I'm sure if I cared I could remember other examples.

Oh, and The Legend of Zelda II had those same elements. It's a bit closer but I've never personally considered the Zelda games to be RPGs (I know many people will disagree, this is only a personal opinion).

Hmm~ not sure if Ratchet & Clank was ever claimed to be a RPG or not, but I know it also featured an experience point system. Not as traditional as leveling your character, but it leveled your HP & weapons through a similar method.

[Eyeballed]

It says that they need to catch up with western developers, which includes Blizzard, the makers of WoW. Now seeing as this is the case, I can understand why people make comparisons between the 2 in terms of leveling, however maybe this is an example of Japanese game devs making changes in how their games are to fit what apparently is considered "modern." Now this change is what you do not like, which is why I wonder why you gave this quote. It seems to show just why they would change the game's progression ideals so vastly, and would look to actually counter your argument on why to do this in my opinion as it shows just why they would, because they are doing it to be more modern with their game.

Simply because it seems SE is following this trend of Western development because, for some reason, Japanese RPG's that I grew up with are falling out of favor. And to me, it's because the common western gamer is, or has become, only interested in bigger/better/faster/more. They're selling out and actually collaborating with Blizzard on FFXIV (request the source if you want, I don't have it to hand). Some things I used to know and love in the gaming world are apparently becoming extinct and I don't like that one bit.

[Eyeballed]

Castlevania II had experience points and a leveling system. I would be hard pressed to call that an RPG. I'm sure if I cared I could remember other examples.

Oh, and The Legend of Zelda II had those same elements. It's a bit closer but I've never personally considered the Zelda games to be RPGs (I know many people will disagree, this is only a personal opinion).

Good show. Though they did blur the lines in the title, passing them off as Action-RPG's, which is a more appropriate title. Funny thing is, if you subtracted the EXP system from the game, they might have gone with simply 'Action' or 'Adventure'.

[Slaxx]

Change happens, get used to it.

Personally I don't care for western style "sandbox" RPGs so I don't play them. There are still plenty of traditional JRPGs out there, I guarantee you haven't played them all even for the current generation of systems, let alone the availability of classic games as downloads.

[Demon6324236]

Simply because it seems SE is following this trend of Western development because, for some reason, Japanese RPG's that I grew up with are falling out of favor. And to me, it's because the common western gamer is, or has become, only interested in bigger/better/faster/more. They're selling out and actually collaborating with Blizzard on FFXIV (request the source if you want, I don't have it to hand). Some things I used to know and love in the gaming world are apparently becoming extinct and I don't like that one bit.

I will agree that MMOs are going this way. However Single-Player games are not, there are still many various SPRPGs out there which hold true to the old JRPG format. Also some companies are making remakes of older games, and while it is not out yet, I myself heavily await info on FFX:HD, as it is one of my favorite games of all time.

I think the reason MMOs are becoming more fast paced however is because people play MMOs to play with each other. If a new player starts a game far after everyone else (in this game for instance) it can leave you feeling left out, leaving you to solo or something of the sort, which takes away the exact feeling you play a MMO for. However with fast progression as we have it now, you can see that many people go to Abyssea, I have met many good friends in worm parties for instance, and it becomes a way for you to quickly get new players to a point in the game where many others are. Now this is my opinion on it, but it seems to be the general idea, and I think its why everyone seems to oppose you so much.

[Komori]

How old are you really eyeballed? I'm still in my late teen years and would do anything not to see FFXI go. I started playing when I was ten when I told my parents I really wanted to try it. And they made my brother let me have a character; two characters that I played with when he wasn't home. So I've been around for some time, a little back to when you probably were too. I was a 62 WHM and a 54 THF when I finally stopped those characters. But then I got my own XBOX and my own account and made Komori. And now it's level 99 on 17 jobs. (SAM49, COR12, RNG7) right now I'm grinding voidwatch for gear as well as money and doing magians to try to further my character.

I leveled all of the jobs because I wanted to be able to be useful in any situation my friends or linkshell needed me. But I really love DRK, DRG, BLU, THF, PUP, WHM, BLM the most. But I wouldn't even have that band of levels if it hadn't been for abyssea because I really wasn't going to level anymore after BLM, BLU and perhaps PUP before it came out. But anyway, tell me why it's acceptable for you to go around and stamp your feet because the game has changed? Why is the money you give SE every month somehow better than mine that they use your ideals and ignore the rest of us?

[Eyeballed]

I will agree that MMOs are going this way. However Single-Player games are not, there are still many various SPRPGs out there which hold true to the old JRPG format. Also some companies are making remakes of older games, and while it is not out yet, I myself heavily await info on FFX:HD, as it is one of my favorite games of all time.

I think the reason MMOs are becoming more fast paced however is because people play MMOs to play with each other. If a new player starts a game far after everyone else (in this game for instance) it can leave you feeling left out, leaving you to solo or something of the sort, which takes away the exact feeling you play a MMO for. However with fast progression as we have it now, you can see that many people go to Abyssea, I have met many good friends in worm parties for instance, and it becomes a way for you to quickly get new players to a point in the game where many others are. Now this is my opinion on it, but it seems to be the general idea, and I think its why everyone seems to oppose you so much.

QFT.

Again I say, it's "Join us, or die"?

[Eyeballed]

How old are you really eyeballed? I'm still in my late teen years and would do anything not to see FFXI go. I started playing when I was ten when I told my parents I really wanted to try it. And they made my brother let me have a character; two characters that I played with when he wasn't home. So I've been around for some time, a little back to when you probably were too. I was a 62 WHM and a 54 THF when I finally stopped those characters. But then I got my own XBOX and my own account and made Komori. And now it's level 99 on 17 jobs. (SAM49, COR12, RNG7) right now I'm grinding voidwatch for gear as well as money and doing magians to try to further my character.

I leveled all of the jobs because I wanted to be able to be useful in any situation my friends or linkshell needed me. But I really love DRK, DRG, BLU, THF, PUP, WHM, BLM the most. But I wouldn't even have that band of levels if it hadn't been for abyssea because I really wasn't going to level anymore after BLM, BLU and perhaps PUP before it came out. But anyway, tell me why it's acceptable for you to go around and stamp your feet because the game has changed? Why is the money you give SE every month somehow better than mine that they use your ideals and ignore the rest of us?

I'm in my 30's. My money is no better than your money, and by that rationale, I have an equally proportionate voice in what I like or dislike about this game.

[Komori]

Your free to voice your dislike for the game.

What your not free to do is voice them to change it to your own personal preference.

[Demon6324236]

QFT.

Again I say, it's "Join us, or die"?

But as I said, the reason most play a MMO is for playing with other players, this exact thing is more easily done when doing exactly what is being done now, making endgame the main focus and thus a easier place for people to gather & work together.

[Eyeballed]

Your free to voice your dislike for the game.

What your not free to do is voice them to change it to your own personal preference.

This statement works both ways, you realize? If you were to replace 'change' with 'revert', which is actually what I'm asking for, then you might better see what I'm saying. Somewhere, someone complained and moaned enough that the game was too slow or punishing or what-have-you, but their personal preference got my game changed into something I didn't like. Follow?

[Eyeballed]

But as I said, the reason most play a MMO is for playing with other players, this exact thing is more easily done when doing exactly what is being done now, making endgame the main focus and thus a easier place for people to gather & work together.

I'm not saying your dilemma is imaginary, but I've never encountered this problem of "not being able to play with my friends". I assume you're talking about your real life friends?

[Meyi]

Nah, even then Eyeballed has the right to voice a concern over changes. Just like we have the right to disagree with that opinion.

[Komori]

Eyeballed, do you think that voice that said that the game was too slow was just one? For the developer to take it into account, I would assume it was most of his paycheck complaining.

There are becoming a good handful of you "old-schoolers" out there yes. But not enough to flip the coin back onto your side. And when people tell you to go and play another game, it's really them trying to look out for your happiness.

The game no longer makes you happy...so why still give your hard-earned money to it? Even if it was suddenly reverted back, everything will not be as it was back in 2006. The world doesn't work that way, I wish some things could revert back.

[Eyeballed]

Eyeballed, do you think that voice that said that the game was too slow was just one? For the developer to take it into account, I would assume it was most of his paycheck complaining.

There are becoming a good handful of you "old-schoolers" out there yes. But not enough to flip the coin back onto your side. And when people tell you to go and play another game, it's really them trying to look out for your happiness.

The game no longer makes you happy...so why still give your hard-earned money to it? Even if it was suddenly reverted back, everything will not be as it was back in 2006. The world doesn't work that way, I wish some things could revert back.

I appreciate your honesty. And, trust that I'm hardly the only one who wants it back. Either side may or may not be the majority, but who's really to say? There's certainly not enough on my side where this game's concerned, but for the game (FFXIV) I graduated to, there seems to be plenty. See here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/49828-Stop-the-Grind-to-the-Endgame-madness%21?p=756779&highlight=stop+grind+endgame#post756779).

[Komori]

Perhaps on that game, but that's for another game entirely. They're yelling for FFXIV to go that route, not FFXI. FFXI has been through it and changed; they would lose what money they have slingshotting backwards.

But with FFXIV being a totally new game still somewhat in development, they could perhaps work something out over there. But the "hardcores" who want things slow and steady have always been minority. They're typically people with nothing else in life better to do. And so of course they want a game that can't be won over in the matter of a few months and then they're bored again.

[cidbahamut]

Why are people still posting in this thread?

[scaevola]

As far as "NIN spells are unnecessary", I can tell you that's not true, either. I did use shuriken from Lv19 onward, all of my debuffs and the full wheel on my way up. Doing so, I could tank without a THF in party. Yeah, it was expensive, but if you can't afford to do it right then don't do it.



Shurikens and the Wheel (except for a brief stint between 40 and 60, after you get Ni nukes and before you get Jin) are a DPS loss unless your 60-75 melee gear is really lacking. The fact you wasted your parties' time by casting Ichi nukes to try to stay capped is their business, but you still wasted it. Kura/Hojo/Jubaku are fine, but they won't cap you alone.


You seriously doubt? Speaks volumes to me.

Yes, I seriously doubt. Maybe he would have run into a prissy bitch or two along the way doing classic XP, but what are they going to do? Kick the only tank within five levels?

Honestly, how can a person in his or her 30s want to go back to the multi-hour commitment a non-endgame-event FFXI session used to entail? I could never see myself doing that again after acquiring a real job and a wife.

[Eyeballed]

Shurikens and the Wheel (except for a brief stint between 40 and 60, after you get Ni nukes and before you get Jin) are a DPS loss unless your 60-75 melee gear is really lacking. The fact you wasted your parties' time by casting Ichi nukes to try to stay capped is their business, but you still wasted it. Kura/Hojo/Jubaku are fine, but they won't cap you alone.

Honestly, how can a person in his or her 30s want to go back to the multi-hour commitment a non-endgame-event FFXI session used to entail? I could never see myself doing that again after acquiring a real job and a wife.

20 levels is not a "brief stint". It might be by today's pace, but certainly not back then. My wife and I play this game together, and she is far from what anyone would define as 'hardcore' and has voiced opinions on the subject that are not dissimilar from my own.

[Demon6324236]

I'm not saying your dilemma is imaginary, but I've never encountered this problem of "not being able to play with my friends". I assume you're talking about your real life friends?

Well real life friends as well as in game friends. People in general starting fresh on the game who know no one could be left out because they are at the start of the game. In this game in particular it used to be hard to get much of anywhere quickly due to how long it took. So a new player could be stuck for months doing something like soloing, even though the original reason for getting on the game was to play with other people, be it friends or strangers. The game has changed that so that now you can catch up relatively fast rather than the old way of taking months.

But as a real life example I have a friend Miller I have wanted to get on this game for some time. I have actually left my SMN at lv1 for this exact reason, I wish to have something to level with him and show him around if he does get the game. My problem used to be that if he ever actually got on the game that he would be so far behind me that it would become boring for us both and he would quit. Now I don't have this problem, only now you can not find the game on 360 which his only option. The point being that before him getting on the game was a problem because he would be far behind me, and now he can be up in the 90s in a matter of a week or 2 with me to show him around.

[scaevola]

It's pretty brief. That's what, Crawler's Nest, Beetles in Altepa, Garlaige Basement, then ToAU?

I mean, I hate to break it to you, but partying was essentially dead long before Abyssea or even Fields of Valor were introduced. Once Campaign provided a way for high-level players to get some extremely modest XP on their own, people were willing to accept anywhere from a quarter to a third of the XP they knew they'd get in a party to avoid dealing with the sort of attitude that moves you to post in this thread. They were happy to solo before that, thanks to Signet defense/eva in 2005-6.

I don't think your opinion is totally without merit but i have been here every step of the way, man, and I'm telling you virtually nobody wants it (though some people think they do, having forgotten 2008).

[Eyeballed]

It's pretty brief. That's what, Crawler's Nest, Beetles in Altepa, Garlaige Basement, then ToAU?

I mean, I hate to break it to you, but partying was essentially dead long before Abyssea or even Fields of Valor were introduced. Once Campaign provided a way for high-level players to get some extremely modest XP on their own, people were willing to accept anywhere from a quarter to a third of the XP they knew they'd get in a party to avoid dealing with the sort of attitude that moves you to post in this thread. The were happy to solo before that, thanks to Signet defense/eva in 2005-6.

I don't think your opinion is totally without merit but i have been here every step of the way, man, and I'm telling you virtually nobody wants it (though some people think they do, having forgotten 2008).

Who are you? And who elected you spokesman for the entire FFXI community, past and present? And even then, you go even farther by suggesting you know what other people want despite their opposing views. Really?

[scaevola]

The fact that people actually do fall all over themselves to book-burn and Abyssea their way to 99; in other words, the very existence of this thread is what stakes mine out as the majority position. What would it take to convince you you're in the minority?

[Eyeballed]

Shurikens and the Wheel (except for a brief stint between 40 and 60, after you get Ni nukes and before you get Jin) are a DPS loss unless your 60-75 melee gear is really lacking. The fact you wasted your parties' time by casting Ichi nukes to try to stay capped is their business, but you still wasted it. Kura/Hojo/Jubaku are fine, but they won't cap you alone.

As well, my 200+ criticals on Colibri with Manji Shuriken would like to have a word with you. But then again, I highly doubt you ever used them, so how would you know?

Bird parties, no THF, and that Penta Thrust SAM isn't taking hate off me. Not before it dies out-right.

[scaevola]

Mommy what's seigan

And good for you, wasting several million gil on using shuriken in XP parties. I'm sure way more than like a tenth of the people you party with even remember anybody did so, much less the name of the guy who did.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Wait, you're complaining about a terrible nin when you were a terrible nin?

[Eyeballed]

Mommy what's seigan

And good for you, wasting several million gil on using shuriken in XP parties. I'm sure way more than like a tenth of the people you party with even remember anybody did so, much less the name of the guy who did.

Who cares about who remembered? I did it because it was FUN. And because it was fun, the gil was hardly wasted. All 20-30k per stack. Woo.

[scaevola]

You know what else is fun?

Doing stuff other than pulling the same mob for hours and hours.

I really would like to know what I could do to convince you you're in the minority, other than what everyone else in the thread has been doing, which has, for whatever reason, escaped you.

(ps you should care who remembered, inasmuch as you're offering your experience as an example of how using shuriken or whatever in an XP party actually matters)

[Eyeballed]

The fact that people actually do fall all over themselves to book-burn and Abyssea their way to 99; in other words, the very existence of this thread is what stakes mine out as the majority position. What would it take to convince you you're in the minority?

You do understand the concept that the wholly modest number of people that remain playing this game are naturally, and wholly, going to be the remainder that "fall over themselves" to burn their levels, right? You know what the word 'skewed' means?

[Demon6324236]

Simple, stop fighting. If you cant win a battle, stop fighting. I assumed a diplomatic position, trying to find out info and convince rather than insult and attack. Which no offense to anyone but that is admittedly what it looks like everyone started doing. Thats why I brought up the point about people saying stupid things when they have no idea what they were talking about, like with the UO convo.

[scaevola]

You do understand the concept that the wholly modest number of people that remain playing this game are naturally, and wholly, going to be the remainder that "fall over themselves" to burn their levels, right?

Why? Anybody who remembers the old way of leveling and liked it enough to do it a lot is done leveling, so this whole debate doesn't affect them.

Gosh, it's almost like people are sticking around to do all the stuff that isn't leveling!!

[Eyeballed]

Simple, stop fighting. If you cant win a battle, stop fighting. I assumed a diplomatic position, trying to find out info and convince rather than insult and attack. Which no offense to anyone but that is admittedly what it looks like everyone started doing. Thats why I brought up the point about people saying stupid things when they have no idea what they were talking about, like with the UO convo.

Like I said long ago, and have demonstrated, I'm here to discuss and debate. I'm with you on this, at least.

[Camiie]

As well, my 200+ criticals on Colibri with Manji Shuriken would like to have a word with you. But then again, I highly doubt you ever used them, so how would you know?

Bird parties, no THF, and that Penta Thrust SAM isn't taking hate off me. Not before it dies out-right.

How many times could you have swung your katanas in the time it took you to hit your ranged attack macro to toss that shuriken and how much dmg would you have done per swing? How much TP would you have gained from those swings versus what you gained from the shuirken? How many times could you WS just meleeing versus throwing shurikens? How much overall dps is your happy fun time with shurikens costing you and your party?

I could sit here and regale you with stories of the times I put up nice numbers doing something out of the ordinary, but it doesn't mean that what I was doing was ideal or efficient. It's great that you got nice dmg out of your shuriken, but there's very good reasons why that's not the normal way of damage dealing for NINs.

[Eyeballed]

How many times could you have swung your katanas in the time it took you to hit your ranged attack macro to toss that shuriken and how much dmg would you have done per swing? How much TP would you have gained from those swings versus what you gained from the shuirken? How many times could you WS just meleeing versus throwing shurikens? How much overall dps is your happy fun time with shurikens costing you and your party?

I could sit here and regale you with stories of the times I put up nice numbers doing something out of the ordinary, but it doesn't mean that what I was doing was ideal or efficient. It's great that you got nice dmg out of your shuriken, but there's very good reasons why that's not the normal way of damage dealing for NINs.

Did you use shuriken on Colibri? Was your throwing skill capped? Do you think I threw more than 1-2 per fight (first being as it was coming in, just before voke). Do you really know what you're talking about, or just attacking something because it's not the route you or any of your friends took? Regarding your first question, did I miss something or did Ninja lose auto-attack somewhere? The ranged in question has a 1.92 delay. See here (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Manji_Shuriken).

[cidbahamut]

Somebody get Wish in here, quickly.

[Slaxx]

That Penta Thrust SAM wasn't pulling hate off of you because he was holding back. If he wasn't then he was doing something very, very wrong. If he was holding back it's because you weren't holding up your end of the bargain. He was probably riding Seigan instead of Hasso, slowing down attack rounds and lowering DPS and WS frequency. The accuracy that comes with Hasso may have made a difference too depending on level and camp. If the SAM isn't going as hard as he can that is slowing down the already painful process of leveling.

The math has been done, if you take the time you can look it up. Throwing shuriken on NIN is a loss in DPS, which means less hate, which means it's making it harder for you to tank.

EDIT Oh the fail is strong now. That's a 192 delay not 1.92. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that's 3+ seconds delay (plus animation? not 100% sure on that). In that time you are definitely getting in at least one attack round if not 2. According to that link they can be bought from an NPC for 7-10k gil, or made as a medium-high level crafting recipe (above the old soft cap of 60), and involve a HQ result from making Steel Ingots. If these were ever even made they went for a pretty penny. On top of the already (moderately) expensive cost of ninja tools (especially if you were using those as often as you claim) that's a lot of gil down the drain to make you do LESS damage overall.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I just read lack of knowledge of game mechanics and blaming burn parties on gimps that would have existed anyway without burn pts being around.

[Eyeballed]

That Penta Thrust SAM wasn't pulling hate off of you because he was holding back. If he wasn't then he was doing something very, very wrong. If he was holding back it's because you weren't holding up your end of the bargain. He was probably riding Seigan instead of Hasso, slowing down attack rounds and lowering DPS and WS frequency. The accuracy that comes with Hasso may have made a difference too depending on level and camp. If the SAM isn't going as hard as he can that is slowing down the already painful process of leveling.

The math has been done, if you take the time you can look it up. Throwing shuriken on NIN is a loss in DPS, which means less hate, which means it's making it harder for you to tank.

Where is this math? You brought it up. I don't have any need to.

[Slaxx]

Yours was the original claim.The burden is on you.

[Eyeballed]

Where is this math? You brought it up. I don't have any need to.

I did find this, however: Related Link (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/ninja/71662-looking-ninja-experience-shuriken-use.html).

Which speaks quite the contrary to everything you're saying. Then again, I have first-hand experience in its capabilities, so I'm not sure why I'm even discussing it. It's not up for debate.

[Eyeballed]

And this: Related Link (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/ninja/39249-shurikens-needed-how-get-back-hate.html).

And this: Related Link (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/ninja/47155-do-you-have-tank-ninja-3.html).

Seems like they do exactly what they were intended to do, with the biggest down-side being cost. Sorry, try again.

[Neisan_Quetz]

All I read was lack of knowledge on how dual wield and haste works.

Like really 05 threads, seriously? You have to be trolling.

[cidbahamut]

Yeah, because linking to threads from 2004 when people were still largely ignorant of the game mechanics is a sure-fire way to prove your point.

brb, digging up one of Wish's posts on shurikens and why they're awful.

edit: blarg, I can't find the thread where he lays out the math in excruciating detail.

[Eyeballed]

All I read was lack of knowledge on how dual wield and haste works.

Like really 05 threads, seriously? You have to be trolling.

Got something better? Something I obviously don't know? If it's such common knowledge, put up or shut up, yeah?

Despite that, my Ninja and its capabilities are in question, correct? I leveled that job to 75 in 2006. Now what?

[Eyeballed]

Yeah, because linking to threads from 2004 when people were still largely ignorant of the game mechanics is a sure-fire way to prove your point.

brb, digging up one of Wish's posts on shurikens and why they're awful.

Explain to me what shuriken have to do with the thread topic, again? Please?

[Neisan_Quetz]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1847-Haste-and-You...-A-guide-to-the-misinformed.?highlight=haste

Read this, and try being less ignorant

post on shuriken: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5423-A-Ninja-without-Throwing...?p=74737&viewfull=1#post74737

Also lol'ing at leveling a job in 06 when you don't know how game mechanics others have been over for years work.

[Eyeballed]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1847-Haste-and-You...-A-guide-to-the-misinformed.?highlight=haste

Read this, and try being less ignorant

Are you serious? You're implying that a Lv40~65 Ninja can even start thinking about a haste build? Hahaha...

[Slaxx]

I saw no math in those threads, and to reiterate the point made above the threads are from '04, '05, and '08. Also on a forum that personally I've never heard of. Were they at one time a source of good information? Can someone else clue me in on that?

EDIT A full 26% Haste? No of course not but there is haste gear at that level, I had it when I leveled NIN through those levels a few years ago. When you add in magic Haste it starts to make a significant difference.

[Eyeballed]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1847-Haste-and-You...-A-guide-to-the-misinformed.?highlight=haste

Read this, and try being less ignorant

post on shuriken: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5423-A-Ninja-without-Throwing...?p=74737&viewfull=1#post74737

Also lol'ing at leveling a job in 06 when you don't know how game mechanics others have been over for years work.

Yeah, good try, but sorry it's invalid when you're talking about 2006 mid-game play versus Lv80? cap gears.

[Eyeballed]

Anyway, remind me again why we're talking about my Ninja and how it's related to this topic?

[Eyeballed]

I saw no math in those threads, and to reiterate the point made above the threads are from '04, '05, and '08. Also on a forum that personally I've never heard of. Were they at one time a source of good information? Can someone else clue me in on that?

EDIT A full 26% Haste? No of course not but there is haste gear at that level, I had it when I leveled NIN through those levels a few years ago. When you add in magic Haste it starts to make a significant difference.

And perhaps the biggest point of all is me stating that I happened to level my Ninja to 75 back in that time period. One that's been blatantly neglected simply to prove a fallacious point. A point that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. Really gotta stop responding to you guys.

[Neisan_Quetz]

>Implying leveling a job in 06 means you have any clue about what you were doing, when you obviously do not, bringing in threads from 04 and 05 when people didn't understand game mechanics to support your flawed argument

> Complaining about a burned Nin and nearly failing a UO run (lol) and that it's level leeching at fault, when gimps/unskilled players existed before abyssea or burns themselves were around, they just levelled slower

>Shuriken were gimp for damage dealing for Nin from at least 55+, your nin was gimp, and you didn't know what you were doing.

[cidbahamut]

Are you serious? You're implying that a Lv40~65 Ninja can even start thinking about a haste build? Hahaha...
http://www.ffxiah.com/item/13054/fuma-kyahan
http://www.ffxiah.com/item/15457/swift-belt
http://www.ffxiah.com/item/11495/zeal-cap

Yes.

[Eric]

> Complaining about a burned Nin and nearly failing a UO run (lol) and that it's level leeching at fault, when gimps/unskilled players existed before abyssea or burns themselves were around, they just levelled slower

I don't understand why this concept is so frickin' hard for these nostalgia freaks to understand. I'll always remember how disappointing it was to find a person to tank for my parties, only to have the group disband half an hour into the party because they were terrible at their job.


EDIT:


Are you serious? You're implying that a Lv40~65 Ninja can even start thinking about a haste build? Hahaha...

Wow. This says it all. You're a hypocrite if you're blaming Abyssea for creating gimps when you were clearly an example of the bad tanks I just talked about.

[Twille]

Is there even a point to this thread anymore?

[Arcon]

Anyway, remind me again why we're talking about my Ninja and how it's related to this topic?

Nothing that's been said in the last 40 pages has been on topic, mostly thanks to you.

[scaevola]

Is there even a point to this thread anymore?

To take turns styling on eyeballed, obviously.

[Eyeballed]

Is there even a point to this thread anymore?

For the few that were contributing constructively to it, (See Merton9999, Demon6324236 and Komori), absolutely there is a point. For the rest, they're throwing out red herrings one after the other in attempt to derail the conversation for their sheer amusement it seems.

Last I checked, these are a Discussion Forums, meaning we don't get by with things like "You were just a fail NIN. You only want your way, bawbag. Go play another game and leave us alone." and so on and so-forth. If you can't discuss things without resorting to things like insults so that ground may actually be covered for either side in a constructive manner, then please just leave it alone. If you had, the thread might have been on page 10 by now.

[scaevola]

We ABSOLUTELY get to point out that you were a bad NIN, because the entire point here is that abyssea/book-burning is not producing less competent/educated players; bad players always existed, and what better way to make that point than to use your own testimonials to show that you were one of them.

I mean, I'll grant that at least you clearly gave a shit about doing well and you STILL failed at it, but nevertheless you still made it to 75. In the fantasy world of rewarded competence you seem to think old school parties promoted, you never would have gotten that far.

What it rewarded was conformity, which is not so bad now that we actually have the Right Answers to how to play the game, but was a big problem when the "right answers" involved paying 500k or camping 35 hours to get 3 DEX and AGI from Leaping Boots (or else I will be a bad NIN!!!! :( ) or struggling to recast Utsusemi: Ichi against mandragoras that hit you for like 25 damage anyway.

[Modoru]

I just happened to say shuriken, debuffs and the wheel. I used all 3 just to be sure. So you're saying you did just fine with provoke and TP spam? And why did you stop at 65?
I leveled Thief at some point, then I didn't have a lot of time, so I took a break. Came back to FFXI and my NIN was only ~70 or something. I did like 5 levels in campaign pretty much.

[Eyeballed]

We ABSOLUTELY get to point out that you were a bad NIN, because the entire point here is that abyssea/book-burning is not producing less competent/educated players; bad players always existed, and what better way to make that point than to use your own testimonials to show that you were one of them.

I mean, I'll grant that at least you clearly gave a shit about doing well and you STILL failed at it, but nevertheless you still made it to 75. In the fantasy world of rewarded competence you seem to think old school parties promoted, you never would have gotten that far.

And this goes to further prove that you don't read my posts, and therefore have no basis as in what's going on, quite frankly. Just like the rest. However, I'm sure you won't ask me to re-iterate or even for a link as to what I said, because you only care about carrying around that flamethrower.

[scaevola]

Okay, so if axing book-burning and abyssea leveling is not about promoting a more competent playerbase, what's it about?

EDIT: As a gesture of good faith, I'll explain why I like the quicker type of leveling: FFXI endgame, maybe more than any other game, allows a variety of different paths to progression, mostly through the continued value of gil for the acquisition of the best weapons in the game. Since there are a ton of different activities that result in gil, I can pursue a given goal a dozen different ways depending on my mood. This variety goes a really long way towards keeping the game fresh.

XP, by comparison, is a straight grind, and in parties its a grind entirely dictated by received knowledge over one or two camps; because the logistics of party-making are pretty involved, getting anyone to break this cycle is more trouble than it's worth. 6-man XP has its charms, but at the end of the day if I wanted to be forced into one activity and one activity only for the majority of the time to improve my character, I would be playing World of Warcraft, which at least has the decency to force you into a much more interesting activity (Heroics).

[Modoru]

Okay, I don't want to promote this derailment any further, where's the report thread button?

:c

[Eyeballed]

Okay, so if axing book-burning and abyssea leveling is not about promoting a more competent playerbase, what's it about?

Nah, I'm not even gonna bother. It's been said enough already and by now you're just asking for more juice. If you wouldn't take an honest ear to it then, you certainly aren't going to now.

[scaevola]

No, I just don't care enough to read fifty pages of thread to synthesize an argument from your posts and then get yelled at for flaming when I fail to present it in the most glowing terms.

So, if you're as interested in having an honest discussion about this, present your thesis and I promise I'll respond fairly (though I can't promise I won't call it dumb if it is, in fact, dumb); if not, I'm happy to keep busting your balls~

[Eyeballed]

No, I just don't care enough to read fifty pages of thread to synthesize an argument from your posts and then get yelled at for flaming when I fail to present it in the most glowing terms.

So, if you're as interested in having an honest discussion about this, present your thesis and I promise I'll respond fairly (though I can't promise I won't call it dumb if it is, in fact, dumb); if not, I'm happy to keep busting your balls~

That goes without saying. It's cool though, I see you need the practice.

[Modoru]

Now you're just attacking the guy when he gave you a chance.

[scaevola]

That goes without saying. It's cool though, I see you need the practice.

For somebody who spent solid minutes of his day typing angry posts about how nobody was interested in having a serious debate with him about his ideas, you're sure quick to smack an olive branch!

I mean, maybe it got lost, but look at the last page; I even went so far as to articulate my own opinion of the current state of the game and why breakneck XP is grrrrrrrrreat! If that's not a statement of good faith, what do you want me to say?

[cidbahamut]

Okay, I don't want to promote this derailment any further, where's the report thread button?

:c
It's the triangle in the lower left-hand corner of every post.

[Eyeballed]

Now you're just attacking the guy when he gave you a chance.

Gave me a chance to do what? Drop another example or reason I have so he can not read it and draw his own conclusions? Shyeah.

[Eric]

Gave me a chance to do what? Drop another example or reason I have so he can not read it and draw his own conclusions? Shyeah.
You realize that this thread is 50 pages long, right?

Do you ever stop and read what you type before you click the "post" button?

[Trisscar]

No, I just don't care enough to read fifty pages of thread to synthesize an argument from your posts and then get yelled at for flaming when I fail to present it in the most glowing terms.

So, if you're as interested in having an honest discussion about this, present your thesis and I promise I'll respond fairly (though I can't promise I won't call it dumb if it is, in fact, dumb); if not, I'm happy to keep busting your balls~

I second this. Eyeballed, put your money where your mouth is. Support your argument or be branded dishonest and a coward.